Dr. Paul Craig Roberts joins Alex Blumberg to discuss the CIA's torture program and how it relates to the Bush administration. Dr. Roberts is a John M. Olin Fellow at the Institute for Political Economy and Research Fellow at The Independent Institute. He is a former Associate Editor of the Wall Street Journal, former Contributing Editor for National Review, a former Assistant Secretary of the U.S. Treasury, and the co-author of The Tyranny of Good Intentions.
00:00:00.000On with us, and he's Paul Craig Roberts, and let me just read the short bio on Dr. Roberts.
00:00:08.000He's a John M. Olin Fellow at the Institute for Political Economy and Research Fellow at the Independent Institute.
00:00:17.000He is a former Associate Editor of the Wall Street Journal, former Contributing Editor for National Review, a former Assistant Secretary of the U.S.
00:00:44.000We talk about whatever they think is important.
00:00:46.000And it was right when I opened the show with today, this open acceptance of torture and the schizophrenia of what they're doing, putting people in prison.
00:00:54.000But then the White House says that we're going to veto laws barring torture.
00:00:59.000And, uh, Gonzales writes memos saying we can torture people to death if we don't call it torture, but none of them get impeached or go to prison.
00:01:06.000And then, uh, and we found out about all these secret gulags that we reported on three years ago.
00:01:11.000I mean, this is nothing new, nothing secret about them.
00:02:22.000I mean, this is just unbelievable, but I've said enough.
00:02:25.000He's here to talk about that, talk about the police state, all the setups for martial law we see taking place, and he's got real conservative credentials, and he's Dr. Paul Craig Roberts.
00:02:36.000Thank you for coming on with us today, sir.
00:03:27.000Well, they certainly have those grand designs, and I'm trying to understand this, Paul Greg Roberts, very strong words from you, but it's true.
00:03:34.000Even Ron Paul, a month ago, without me prompting, said they may declare martial law, they may take our guns, we may all get arrested.
00:03:41.000The question is, Alex, what the hell are they up to?
00:03:44.000Let's just start with something simple.
00:04:11.000So the real question is, why do they want to torture people when it doesn't produce good information?
00:04:18.000Could it possibly be that they need a whole bunch of terrorists who implicate themselves so they can prove there actually is a terrorist threat?
00:04:30.000So they go round up... See, another thing, Alex, they know.
00:04:34.000Our army knows, our government knows, the CIA knows, all these people they have in detention.
00:04:41.000The likelihood of any of them being a terrorist is extremely low.
00:04:47.000Most of these people, Alex, were rounded up in the equivalent of KGB, Stalin-era street sweeps.
00:04:54.000They just happened to be there when troops came along and grabbed them.
00:04:57.000Many of them, and it's been in the news, they have lawyers, many of them were people captured in Pakistan by Pakistani gangsters.
00:05:11.000And sold to the Americans as terrorists.
00:05:13.000Well actually what the Army admitted and the head CIA officer in Afghanistan for two years said is that they would get between five and twenty five thousand dollars per man woman or child and they would just go into little mountain villages of people that never had left their village who didn't even know where America was on a map.
00:05:32.000This is admitted And it was actual Taliban who would actually then come sell these innocent people.
00:05:39.000And the Army's own report said 75-90% of those were completely innocent of even ever picking up arms against us.
00:05:46.000And they were just children and families that didn't have papers in order.
00:07:22.000We are becoming the most hated nation.
00:07:26.000Well, I had Wayne Madison, who was, as you know, a NSA analyst, and he said, working for Reagan back in the 80s, as you did, he said if they saw this type of stuff, if they saw an administration doing this in the 80s, they would have thought it's a fifth column, it's communist, they're doing this to make America look bad, they're doing this to bring America down, they're doing this to destroy all of our international connections.
00:07:53.000And I said, well, Wayne, isn't that what's happening?
00:07:54.000And he said, you know, yeah, it's a corporate interest that just is strip mining and insanely just in a bloody orgy of feeding.
00:08:04.000Well, I think it's the insane neoconservatives.
00:09:09.000If we know they're terrorists, why do we have to hold them four years?
00:09:14.000Well, how come we don't listen when the lawyers representing their families say, you've got my husband and my father and he's a Saudi businessman and he was captured in Pakistan and sold to you guys?
00:09:28.000And then the army interrogators even go, look, these people are totally innocent and they get told, keep them.
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00:15:47.000But right before the Gulf War, in late 2002, they got a $6 billion federal program, a secret program funded, it was in UPI and the AP and a few other places, called P2OG.
00:16:00.000And I don't know if Dr. Roberts is aware of this, But in P2OG they said we're going to kill people's family members.
00:16:07.000We're going to stimulate an attack in the Middle East, widen it, and then we can go into Iran and Syria and other areas.
00:16:13.000So the plan is, you know, when they tell our troops to go in and you get shot at the village, arrest every man down to age 11, bulldoze all their date palms, all their tangerine orchards, that is meant to generate, because do the corporations make more money if we're in Iraq a year and fix the problems and leave?
00:16:32.000Dr. Roberts, does that now make sense to you or do you disagree?
00:16:36.000You know Alex, I don't know what to make of it all.
00:16:42.000I do agree with you that terrible things are going on and they make so little sense that almost any explanation becomes believable.
00:16:53.000But it's not, you know, all I can say about it is that I know that we are committing war crimes, we're in violation of the Nuremberg standard that we established when we put the Nazis on trial.
00:17:15.000You know, there's something wrong with the public, that it sits there like Idiots and lets a bunch of Nazis run wild.
00:17:25.000But let me go back to, let's talk about, let's contrast the Senate's vote to restrict detainees access to the courts with what happened just the other day in the British Parliament.
00:17:43.000Now, in the great United States, we hold ourselves up as this great democracy and liberty and freedom and liberty and freedom.
00:17:52.000The Senate yesterday endorsed a plan, I'm reading from the Washington Post today, that would overturn the landmark Supreme Court ruling last year that permitted many of the detainees held at Guantanamo Bay To challenge their detention.
00:18:16.000So, the Senate says, gosh, here's the Supreme Court is going to enforce the Constitution and let people have rights.
00:19:02.000And no doubt Bush will describe this as a great victory for freedom and democracy and liberty and blah blah blah.
00:19:08.000Now what happened in England at the same time, on Wednesday, what happened the day before?
00:19:15.000Bush's pimp over there, Blair, Tony Blair, somebody who is as despicable as Bush, he said, oh look, we want rights to hold the detainees for 90 days.
00:19:32.000Now look, Bush wants to hold them indefinitely, forever.
00:19:38.000And the British Prime Minister says, we only want to hold them for 90 days.
00:19:43.000And the Parliament said, to hell with you, Buster, you can't do it.
00:20:19.000There's nothing conservative about the Bush administration.
00:20:22.000Exactly, but that's what I'm saying is that none of us are safe, and the heart of America is that Bill of Rights, that Constitution, habeas corpus, that's why we're America, and they're taking all that away and... So why is the Senate overturning it?
00:20:42.000And we contrast that with Britain, and they won't even let Blair have 90 days.
00:20:47.000They said, alright, we'll let a person be held 28 days without charges.
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00:23:25.000What part of unconstitutional do you not understand, George?
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00:24:15.000The Genesis Communications Radio Network proudly presents the Alex Jones Show.
00:24:23.000Because there's a war on for your mind.
00:24:26.000All right, coming up in about ten minutes or so, we'll take a few calls in there specifically for Dr. Paul Craig Roberts and any of the police state issues we're discussing.
00:26:08.000I mean, they're not even conservatives anymore.
00:26:10.000They are literally Bush-worshippers Brown Shirt says, I know you've called them.
00:26:16.000I want to get into more on the torture, more on the police state being set up here domestically, but when you talk to your old conservative friends and they're still worshipping Bush, what do you say to them?
00:27:08.000I don't know if you, you may have already covered this Alex, but yesterday in the publication Capitol Hill Blue, it reports a confidential memo circulating among senior Republican leaders, suggests that a new attack by terrorists on U.S.
00:27:24.000soil could reverse the sagging fortunes of President George Bush, as well as the sagging fortunes of the GOP.
00:27:32.000You know, we got wiped out in the election the other day.
00:27:35.000And restore Bush's image as a leader of the American people.
00:27:39.000This is a closely guarded memo and it lays out a list of scenarios of another terrorist attack on the U.S.
00:27:46.000in order to bring the Republican Party back from the political brink.
00:27:52.000So that shows you the way these so-called Republicans think.
00:27:58.000I'd like to say, too, these are nothing like the Republicans I work with.
00:28:02.000They're nothing like the Republicans in the Bush administration.
00:28:04.000I don't know who these people are or where they came from.
00:28:08.000It's almost like they came from out of space.
00:28:19.000No, it is very alien to our form of government and our way of life.
00:28:23.000But, uh, we have other memos from the U.S.
00:28:26.000government going back where they talk about terror attacks being helpful.
00:28:29.000We have Gary Hart of the big CFR Commission, days after 9-11, saying we need to use this disaster to get a new world order, to get people's freedoms and liberty.
00:28:39.000Let's, you know, make lemonade out of these lemons.
00:28:43.000But, uh... Well, I don't think it's going to work for them.
00:28:47.000I think they're going down in flames, myself.
00:28:50.000Well, I agree with you, sir, but let me say this.
00:28:51.000I was not aware of this Capitol Hill Blue, which is very reputable.
00:28:55.000We're going to be posting that right now, specifically, sir.
00:30:04.000They had a big study, what, a year ago.
00:30:06.000The White House paid for a study, I'm sure you heard about that, to see what our response would be to another terror attack.
00:30:12.000And they found a narrow majority at that time, now they've eroded even more, would support more of their police state policies than there was.
00:30:20.000I don't think people trust the President any longer.
00:30:48.000Look, Alex, when I was doing Russian studies, I learned that the Czarist secret police used to conduct bombings so they could blame somebody they wanted to get and arrest them.
00:31:04.000Yeah, that was the white Russians' favorite trick and then of course the Commissariat learned that and they passed it on.
00:31:09.000Yeah, so, you know, the kinds of black job operations that governments do are notorious.
00:31:23.000Can we talk a little bit about the economy?
00:31:54.000president combined I was you know he has run up more debt in his time in office than we did in the first 224 years by existence from 1776 until 2000 I was not aware of that I was I knew that he had spent more than three or four presidents combined, but no, I wasn't aware of that.
00:32:21.000No, not just spent, but borrowed from foreigners.
00:32:27.000Well, that's why a lot of experts are saying it looks like they're actually trying to bring America down.
00:32:33.000Well, it certainly has given Asians tremendous power over us, because they hold enough of They've got treasury bonds now that just the threat to dump them would send our interest rates skyrocketing.
00:32:49.000Well the CFR openly laughs at America.
00:35:05.000Now, so what does it mean if the layoff rate is twice the rate of new jobs?
00:35:16.000It's not a very promising It's not a very promising outlook.
00:35:21.000Can I bring up another economic indice, and that's energy.
00:35:25.000We have the oil companies own memos, starting back nine years ago, where they said we're going to buy up all the small, and I mean all, refineries, shut them down, restrict and cut back ours.
00:35:35.000Then I watch, and then rip people off, create an artificial bottleneck, griping about Saddam over pumping, griping about Venezuela, because there's too much oil, they want to restrict it.
00:35:44.000I don't think the oil companies, the American oil companies, don't own much oil anymore.
00:35:47.000and says, "Oh no, we've built more refineries," which is a total lie, and then they questioned him more.
00:35:53.000He said, "Well, we refitted..." Alex, listen, I don't think the oil companies, the American oil companies don't own much oil anymore.
00:36:01.000They're mainly just retailers of gasoline, and they're actually even going out of the You can't build a refinery in the United States because of all the environmental stuff.
00:36:12.000No, I understand, but that's how this whole thing has been set up.
00:36:15.000So my question is, where is it going with the energy prices being so high?
00:36:24.000Or where is it going with all prices going to be so high?
00:37:36.000But our energy imports are small compared to our imports of advanced technology products, manufactured goods, consumer goods, automobiles.
00:37:52.000If we need energy independence, why don't we need manufacturing independence?
00:37:56.000Why don't we need innovation independence?
00:38:00.000That people are so fixated on energy for, because, as I just pointed out... Well, it's something they can actually feel on a day-to-day basis.
00:39:15.000I think it's just short-run stupidity by itself on the part of corporations.
00:39:21.000They say, oh, we can get foreigners cheaper, but then they have to I wonder what happens to the American market?
00:39:28.000If they destroy the American consumer market because they give all the good jobs abroad, who's going to buy the stuff here?
00:39:34.000Well, Dr. Roberts, the globalist in many different official UN reports and others have said this internationalism is about global corporations being more powerful than any country, and they want us all interdependent.
00:39:45.000They don't want a strong nation state.
00:40:08.000It's three month quarterly reporting where everyone focuses on what's the three months Results.
00:40:16.000And oh well, we laid off another 10,000 people and hired Indians in their place and our profits went up and we get bigger bonuses.
00:40:25.000And that's as good an explanation as any.
00:40:27.000It doesn't imply some kind of... But why would there be federal programs to pay U.S.
00:40:34.000companies to move overseas and then insure the investment if it fails?
00:40:40.000A lot of those things date from the Cold War, where one of our strategies to contain communism was to develop the vulnerable countries, the ones that were poor and poverty-stricken and seemed to be-- - Yeah, prop 'em up.
00:40:58.000So these things last long beyond, it's the Cold War's over, but the programs are still there.
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00:45:56.000But Bob, Daisy, Lou, if you want to hold even more, God bless you.
00:45:59.000Dr. Roberts, we've just got about three minutes now, about five minutes to the next hour, but just in a nutshell, before I go to these calls, and I'm going to go right to them, we've got the new Fed chairman coming in, we've got him saying, I'll print even more money.
00:47:17.000Okay, to address a few things relative, of course, to what the doctor has been driving at.
00:47:22.000Today it was actually reported in New York Newsday that the police commissioner of New York City has gone into a memorandum of understanding with the Central Intelligence Agency.
00:47:33.000We have a local, it has to be emphasized, local law enforcement agency.
00:47:38.000They're setting up local commissariats.
00:47:40.000Yep, and in fact, he has retained, and it seems to be a very favorite place for people who retire from the CIA to come and get a job in retirement, the NYPD.
00:47:50.000So we definitely got strange going on here.
00:47:53.000A few other things that have struck me very odd over the last several weeks, and they follow this way.
00:47:59.000I begin to strongly suspect events in the world, case in point, The explosions in Jordan.
00:48:06.000Now, if anybody knows Muslim culture or Arabic culture, they would know that attacking a wedding is an extremely taboo thing to do in that culture, if you're not aware of that.
00:48:38.000I think he has a very good point, Alex.
00:48:40.000He has a very good point, and I saw the Israeli newspaper, Haaretz, initially said that all the Israelis in those hotels had been given prior warning and were pulled out.
00:48:53.000And it's confirmed that Netanyahu got a warning on 7-7.
00:49:25.000Write the memo that says torture people, and then they say they're for torture, but then they send people who follow their orders to prison?
00:49:31.000It looks like Americans just don't care.
00:50:55.000Do you think that the torture in Iraq will come here to America, i.e., if we sever our martial law and they should start arresting patriots, Conservative, constitutionalist, and anybody who's a thorn in the flesh of government.
00:51:11.000Yeah, I think torture, I think it's actually already here.
00:51:15.000You may remember the police used to beat people up all the time to get confessions, and then what was known as the Warren Court, the big liberal court, made a lot of rulings which stopped
00:51:31.000uh... domestic uh... torture by the police of suspects i'm told that in a number of prisons with bad wardens that torture already goes on in the united states but i'm absolutely sure that if uh... an institution that was once known for its honor and integrity the united states military it is undertaking torture in iraq
00:52:00.000If they can corrupt the military like that, it would be very easy to corrupt the police.
00:52:26.000I was going to bring up that GOP memo.
00:52:29.000Uh, I guess I can just add, uh, one of the things, one of the other scenarios about him is capturing Osama Bin Laden, in parenthesis it puts, or proof that he is dead.
00:52:38.000Uh, so that'll, that'll be an interesting one.
00:52:40.000Uh, I wonder when that's gonna come up.
00:52:41.000But, uh, the question I had, uh, uh, and I'd like to get, uh, the doctor's opinion on this.
00:52:47.000I noticed a long time ago, uh, one of the people that got caught up in the CIA's bragnant when they were sending their leader jets around the world to, uh, kidnap, Some guys to bring to their torture camps happen to be a son of a prominent and wealthy opponent of none other than Qaddafi.
00:53:07.000It was the son of an opponent of Qaddafi.