In this episode of The Alex Jones Show, host Alex Jones is joined in studio by anthropologist Barbara McLeod, who has been all over the world studying the ancient Mayan languages and hieroglyphic writing. She is also one of the leading experts on the language used by the Mayans, and has been involved in the study of these ancient languages for many years. She was the language specialist for Mel Gibson's Apocalypto, hired by the University of Texas, Austin, to assist in post-production of the film, and to make sure that they got it right, resurrecting this ancient language.
00:01:20.000We've syndicated this broadcast now for the last two months.
00:01:23.000Out of the studios of NewsRadio 590, KLBJ, quite a few stations already picking the show up, and a whole bunch lined up to pick it up in the new year, when they can change their programming all over the country.
00:01:33.000And not just on the AM and FM dial, but also on global shortwave, the internet, and of course, via satellite.
00:01:41.000We have a special guest coming up in the next hour.
00:01:54.000in anthropology from the University of Texas, 1990, specializing in Mayan languages and hieroglyphic writing.
00:02:01.000She speaks the ancient language of Mayan Fluently, and she was the language specialist for the film Apocalypto, hired by Mel Gibson to assist the different actors, and then of course in post-production to make sure that they got it right, resurrecting this ancient language.
00:02:22.000She'll be joining us in studio in the next hour.
00:02:24.000I've been told she just called and is in transit here now.
00:02:27.000We're very thankful for that, because last week I read a Statesman article on air Where a UT art assistant professor, oh, the art teachers now know everything, saying that the film was inaccurate, but then they couldn't give any real reasons, just saying, oh, it's so violent, oh, this is terrible.
00:02:46.000Yes, there was human sacrifice in the Mayan culture, but it wasn't a pious act.
00:02:57.000And that it's evil to talk bad about the human sacrifice.
00:03:01.000I have the Statesman article here in front of me, and so that's how politically correct and crazy things have gotten, is that you're not supposed to make a historical film.
00:03:10.000Now, they never set about to make a historical film, but it's extremely accurate.
00:03:14.000Of course, there are some things that aren't completely accurate, like the anthropologist we have joining us has pointed out, that eclipses don't last five minutes for the scene.
00:03:26.000The point is, Mel Gibson actually scaled back the true violence of the entire Mayan culture, particularly there at the end, the last hundred years or so I guess, with the Aztecs.
00:03:40.000Well, some estimates are 20,000 people sacrificed in a holiday weekend.
00:03:46.000More conservative estimates are around 5-6,000.
00:03:49.000I'm somewhat of a novice buff, you could say.
00:03:52.000I've read a few books about it, been to some of the pyramids, watched the History Channel shows.
00:03:55.000I don't claim to be some expert, but it was very accurate from what I knew.
00:03:59.000And, of course, my mom took a lot of Mesoamerican studies.
00:04:14.000They call themselves politically correct liberals, are just freaking out, saying, don't show our dear Mayan culture in this way.
00:04:23.000So, we're going to bring you an anthropologist expert.
00:04:27.000An academic who's been all over the Mesoamerican world and for many years studying this, and of course who's also one of the leading experts on reading these hieroglyphs.
00:04:41.000She's going to speak some in the Language for you that is used by the Mayans, still used by some of them down in Mexico today, or at least kind of a compilation of that ancient language with the Spanish and some other things.
00:04:57.000So she's going to be in studio doing that in the next hour.
00:05:01.000Right now, big developments this week.
00:05:04.000You know, I took off Thursday and Friday, went to LA for some business meetings concerning some projects I'm working on in the future.
00:05:12.000And so I was out of town, and when I got back, I got in front of the computer and saw all the news that had been broken at PrisonPlanet.com and InfoWars.com the last few days.
00:05:23.000I knew we were working on these stories, but now we have them up there for you.
00:05:28.000The government biological weapons legislator says 2001 anthrax attacks, part of government bio-warfare program and that all the evidence shows that it's an inside job government attack.
00:06:16.000in political science, both from Harvard University and a bunch of others.
00:06:21.000Magna Cum Laude, I just can't go on with all the positions.
00:06:25.000He's gone public, got about 185 IQ, knows what he's talking about when it comes to terrorism, and he's going to tell you where that anthrax came from.
00:06:33.000Of course, we told you before the attacks.
00:06:36.000I said on September 11th, and of all places the ADL picked it up and said, oh look how evil Jones is.
00:06:41.000He says there's going to be a terror attack with bioweapons in the next month.
00:06:45.000That was what I was getting from sources in government.
00:06:48.000And, oh, lo and behold, the anthrax attacks popped up.
00:06:51.000Kind of like I said they're going to attack the World Trade Center two months before and blame it on their CIA asset, Bin Laden, and then that happened as well.
00:07:12.000He believes in a thing called the Bilderberg Rift, a thing called the CFR, a place called Bohemian Grove, he's crazy!
00:07:19.000He believes in the North American Union, a plan to seize all the major interstate highways and use them as a taxation system, and now it's all happening.
00:07:26.000I mean, all we do is read their own documents!
00:07:42.000It's now emerging the government was involved.
00:07:44.000Intimately, we'll be getting into that report for you.
00:07:48.000Also, there is a FAA air traffic controller.
00:07:53.000Who is speaking out now, and after the break we'll get into that report for you.
00:07:59.000And he's talking about the people that were actually inside the control towers when this was happening on 9-11, that there were clear orders to stand down, and that regular procedures were blocked.
00:08:11.000And he goes through the evidence of the 9-11 drills, coinciding with it, and how 9-11, again, has to be an inside job, an inside job at the bare minimum.
00:08:21.000Elements within the government knew it was happening, and a lot of it took place, and then you look at more and more of the evidence, the only thing that fits is total inside job.
00:08:29.000But the really big news, normally I don't pay attention to Time Magazine man or woman, person of the year, but this time it makes sense, and they're finally getting it.
00:08:56.000We will get into that for you as well after the break.
00:09:00.000And we'll integrate that with, there's a hint, Study of Americans media use finds web finally passing newspapers and Americans are now watching or viewing or reading nine and a half hours of media a day totally plugged into the system.
00:09:15.000In the last decade it has increased from four and a half hours a day total media.
00:09:21.000I mean so it's an exponential increase and the largest slice of that isn't TV, isn't even radio, isn't newspapers, it's the internet.
00:09:30.000And internet news is starting to surpass porn.
00:09:35.000So, alternative news is now numero uno.
00:09:44.000massive transmission lined up for you.
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00:11:00.000The United States seems to be celebrating over its triumph of reducing government debt.
00:11:04.000But the truth be told, public and private debt increased to a record high in 1999, reaching a peak of $14.8 trillion, marking 10.57% annual increase, outpacing its previous 10 years.
00:11:56.000After a year in production and traveling to distant lands, my new film Terror Storm is complete.
00:12:09.000Shocking declassified government documents prove that western governments are orchestrating terror attacks against their own populations as a pretext to enslave them.
00:12:18.000TerrorStorm proves that not only was 9-11 an inside job, but the attacks of 7-7 in London were carried out by British intelligence.
00:12:25.000TerrorStorm chronicles the lies that took us to war in Iran, a White House program to disseminate fake news, NSA spies.
00:12:32.000Secret police torture, the latest 9-11 information, and much, much more.
00:12:37.000Terror Storm is the definitive guide to the history of government-sponsored terrorism.
00:12:41.000It's an anthology of government crimes.
00:12:43.000Terror Storm is a film that everyone who wants to be truly informed must see.
00:12:47.000Get your copy today at Infowars.com or PrisonPlanet.com or by calling toll-free 1-888-253-3139 or watch it right now online at PrisonPlanet.tv.
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00:14:30.000Well, this is the first time that it hasn't been a human being, that is an individual person.
00:14:36.000Person of the Year is you, and it's got a little
00:14:40.000reflective plastic tinfoil mirror on the cover and the plastic tinfoil mirror is affixed in what is a picture of a computer screen and it's saying because of YouTube and Google Video we're now all able to put ourselves out there and that it's fracturing the mainstream media and basically taking over most of the viewers that television had left and that is indeed true.
00:15:08.000Hundreds of millions of people Just in North America, every single week, go online and watch videos.
00:15:29.000So now you see the mainstream media starting to panic, but a little bit too late.
00:15:33.000In fact, newspaper circulation is down by over 60% in the last decade.
00:15:39.000You'll see a press report saying newspapers are down 9% in the last year.
00:15:45.000And this particular newspaper was down even more.
00:15:48.000Or the LA Times fared better, it's only down by 6%.
00:15:51.000But overall, newspaper circulation That is, how many newspapers they sell, how many subscribers they have, is down by 60 plus percent.
00:16:01.000And that's what made your papers, in the last few years, getting caught inflating their list.
00:16:06.000Combining old lists of subscribers that they had, that they no longer have, in a desperate attempt.
00:16:13.000But I'll tell you what mainstream media is still good at, that is, especially the newspapers and television, is selling people advertising at vastly inflated prices.
00:16:23.000But then you get an alternative website, you know, that, say, has a hundred times the viewers of some local newspaper readers.
00:16:30.000But they can't even get money for advertising, but the mainstream media still can.
00:16:35.000So that's the last part of the paradigm that hasn't been completely shattered yet, is take Beelo.
00:16:42.000They own the Dallas Morning News, and I looked it up.
00:16:44.000The Dallas Morning News makes over $100 million a year, supposedly, in advertising.
00:16:50.000Well, Prison Planet and most of their supposed newspaper readers or viewers are online.
00:16:57.000Well, PrisonPlanet.com, if you go to Alexa.com and some of it, as I've said many times, you can go look it up right now.
00:17:03.000If you go to Alexa.com, the big rating services, you can see that PrisonPlanet.com is the same size right now and is starting in the trend to surpass DallasMorningNews.com.
00:17:12.000But we basically make enough money to pay my employees, and that's about it.
00:17:18.000And frankly, we're not aggressive with advertising.
00:17:20.000I'm not out there even really looking for it.
00:17:22.000But the point is, is that they know how to have an illusion and go out and make a hundred million dollars off of the visitors and readers that they have.
00:17:34.000It's the same thing with RushLimbaugh.com.
00:17:53.000There's one more little part of the paradigm that hasn't been discovered yet.
00:17:59.000I'm just as an alternative media person, who kind of interfaces with mainstream media, trying to give you an idea of this from our own personal experience just here at the microscopic level.
00:18:12.000Take what's happening with YouTube and Google Video.
00:18:18.000They are, and again those are quote mainstream owned, but they are totally supplanting the old media order.
00:18:26.000How are they going to try to reverse that?
00:18:28.000But one of the few little parts of this paradigm that still hasn't been shattered is, though in major polls, 84%, that number has come up many times in the last few months in scientific polls, 84% don't approve of Congress.
00:18:43.00084% don't believe the official story of 9-11.
00:18:46.000Cheney only has a 12% approval rating, so it's even lower with some individuals.
00:18:52.000But for the first time, you have people totally not trusting either party, the system being exposed, and being in a lot of trouble.
00:18:59.000To the point of Time Magazine has to say, person of the year is you!
00:19:03.000Come by our magazine with a tinfoil cover and look at yourself in it and feel important and powerful!
00:19:08.000That gimmick is not going to work with people.
00:19:10.000They've had a taste of freedom, They've had a taste of the alternative, and now the establishment's moving to shut down the web, restrict it, tax it, regulate it.
00:19:32.000I saw a story a few months ago, CNN was panicking going, In the past, we all had one cultural book we read from, mainstream media, and we were all cohesive when everyone could basically be programmed by us.
00:19:43.000I can't believe they're admitting it, and now that's not working anymore!
00:19:46.000I mean, they were openly, and hey, you control freaks!
00:19:49.000That's right, you're gonna really have to compete now, and we'll see how you like it!
00:19:54.000But let me get back to what I was saying.
00:19:55.000The final piece of the paradigm that hasn't been shattered is this.
00:19:59.000Number one, alternative media doesn't make the money anywhere near one-one-thousandth on average that I've looked at what it should be versus these big giants, okay?
00:20:09.000And that's because the belief is still there, the aura of mainstream media, the power of mainstream media, the fancy teleprompters and the info babes with the collagen-filled lips, and the guys in the $3,000 suits wearing $500 ties, And reading off a teleprompter, delivering every word perfectly crafted.
00:20:33.000People still feel like that's the establishment, and that's the final word, and everybody thinks they're a bunch of liars and propagandists, but we still feel like we're alone.
00:20:42.000People haven't figured out yet that the original old paradigm has been shattered, though the worm is now turning, and that's being discovered.
00:20:51.000So, it is extremely, extremely exciting.
00:20:55.000Person of the Year is you, Time Magazine.
00:21:00.000And that's exciting because, again, and they go into admitting that the mainstream media is in deep trouble.
00:21:06.000All they can try to do now is basically set the trends, set the fads, and hope that everyone in the alternative starts parroting it, and regurgitating it, and repeating it, and that's not going to happen either.
00:21:17.000But some scary numbers out of the Associated Press here at year-end, along the same lines, headline, Study of American Medium News finds web finally passing newspapers.
00:21:32.000Americans spend more time watching TV, listening to the radio, surfing the internet, and reading newspapers, it seems, than anything else except breathing.
00:21:39.000In fact, media use has risen every year since the start of the decade, helped by faster and easier ways to get information, entertainment, according to statistics and a new government report.
00:21:49.000Next year, Americans are projected to spend more than nine and a half hours a day with the media.
00:21:58.000Those hours spent doing two things at once, such as watching TV and using the Internet, are counted twice in the report.
00:22:06.000Then it goes through the numbers that the Internet has now eclipsed print media, that is newspapers, and is fast eclipsing television, and is already the largest piece of the pie.
00:22:20.000And then if you look at that piece of the pie, people on the internet, porn is number one.
00:22:24.000You can go to Google, they have tracker charts, statistics very accurate to look at this.
00:22:29.000And guess what is beginning some days to be porn and trending in the next six months to eclipse pornography.
00:22:37.000Alternative media, what you're listening to right now.
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00:27:14.000You're locked in to the Alex Jones Show.
00:27:20.000The first stage in winning the war against corruption is knowing exactly who the people are that are taking our liberties and freedoms.
00:27:28.000And that's both political parties bought off by big special interests, global corporations, that are dismantling our country's sovereignty right now.
00:27:45.000We have Barbara McLeod out there in the green room.
00:27:49.000And she was the main anthropologist, one of the main anthropologists working on the film Apocalypto.
00:27:58.000And last week I got on the radio on the Sunday Show and talked about what a great film it was.
00:28:03.000And just from my novice research, You know, watching the History Channel, reading a few books about it, going down to quite a few of the pyramids, as many of you have done, in Mexico.
00:28:12.000It's fascinating stuff that the film was pretty darn accurate.
00:28:15.000It actually held back how violent the Aztecs really were.
00:28:22.000And then I got sent a little article or a little piece that Barbara had put together.
00:28:30.000She talked about how they would tie people up and roll them down the steps.
00:28:34.000They would rip their jaws off and ritualize torture.
00:28:38.000And just, of course, then this weekend I was in Los Angeles and I had some time to watch TV.
00:28:43.000And I saw a History Channel special on the Aztecs with how they would Skin people and wear their skins.
00:28:47.000This is pretty interesting stuff and she's an expert on it.
00:28:51.000And so we will talk about Apocalypto and this UT assistant professor of art who said how horrible the film was and how evil Mel was and how he showed him like a bunch of heathen.
00:29:10.000Now, certainly all cultures have engaged in these types of behaviors.
00:29:13.000When we talk about the Romans and their ritualized killing in the arena, we say it's bad.
00:29:18.000Or when we talk about the things that Hitler did, we say it's bad, as well we should.
00:29:23.000Or when we talk about the Druids, it's been a National Geographic, their human sacrifices, that wasn't on the scale of the Aztecs there at the end of the Mayan system, civilization.
00:30:03.000Government Biological Weapons Legislator, top scientist and professor, says the 2001 anthrax attacks were part of government bio-warfare program.
00:30:12.000I'm interviewing him tomorrow on my weekday syndicated show.
00:30:38.000I think it's all very interesting, and I think what you say is true, but what you indicate that you're somehow that Whether YouTube or the people quote-unquote waking up is going to somehow make the New World Order back off and our country's going to opt out of it, you don't believe that really deep down inside.
00:30:59.000Or with all that you know about the New World Order and the malevolent forces behind it, You're naïve enough to believe that they're going to say, okay, you woke too many people up, so we're going to leave the biggest economy in the world out of our deal.
00:31:10.000Well, let me first ask you a question.
00:31:12.000For people that just tuned in for the first time, tell them what the New World Order is first.
00:31:17.000Okay, it's the international bankers, it's the Illuminati, the CFR, all the groups that are going to ultimately, with your own words... The groups who now are on C-SPAN saying they're creating a North American Union, one world government.
00:31:54.000They thought it was the end of the world with Hitler and said don't fight him.
00:31:57.000They thought it was the end of the world, you know, in 1776 and told the founders don't fight.
00:32:01.000Number one, I have a duty to fight corruption.
00:32:03.000Number two, I wouldn't be here doing this if I didn't think we had a chance to save this country, keep us out of these global wars for empire, and at least scale back the corruption.
00:32:14.000History shows over and over again that tyranny gets worse and worse until people finally stand up against it, or until the government itself, the system, collapses.
00:32:23.000We're about to be talking about that in the next hour, as Rome did, as the Aztecs did in Mesoamerica, You know, all these cultures have.
00:32:32.000It's the same thing we're talking about right now.
00:32:34.000So I know, sir, I've seen right here in Texas where we've beaten, you know, bills to put transponders and all the inspection stickers to give us tickets as we drive down the road and track us, or we've beaten gun legislation against the Second Amendment, or we've beaten, you know, all this other legislation.
00:32:48.000I've seen us beat stuff at the federal level.
00:32:50.000We've also had a lot of defeats, but I haven't... Listen, I have an attitude of I love this country, I love my family, and I would call myself a real paleo-conservative, and I'm going to go down swinging even if we don't have a chance of winning.
00:33:02.000I think... And maybe the antichrist is about to pop up like the jack-in-the-box, and maybe all this is about to happen, but I'm still going to fight it.
00:33:09.000Okay, I think that's wonderful that you do that, and everybody should do that.
00:33:13.000I'm right there with you for that, but if these people have the power they have, they're not... One is, you talk about the high-tech overlay, the Gestapo didn't have high-tech.
00:33:22.000Well, I'll tell you what Thomas Jefferson said, and I appreciate your call.
00:33:25.000And I gave you a lot of time, but the defeatist talk really gets me mad.
00:33:27.000People are not just going to go, well, they're fighting, so we're going to give up the biggest economy in the world.
00:33:32.000Alex, mark it down, they're going to get the United States.
00:33:37.000Play, but I guarantee you they're going to get the United States.
00:33:40.000Well, I'll tell you what Thomas Jefferson said, and I appreciate your call.
00:33:42.000And I gave you a lot of time, but just the defeatist talk really gets me mad.
00:33:45.000And number one, you've got to believe you can win a fight.
00:33:49.000I mean, if you go into a fight and you're not going forward, and this isn't business or a physical fight, or anything, and if you don't have the momentum and you don't go into it 110%, I'll guarantee you you're going to lose if you're fighting a serious foe.
00:34:06.000But just this talk about how we can't do a damn thing and how they're too big and they're too tough and the corruption's too serious, the only thing that may sink us is that we ourselves have become decadent.
00:34:19.000We took the milk and honey, the incredible success of our forefathers and mothers, our forebearers, and we have squandered it and we have become decadent.
00:34:29.000And that's the biggest thing we have working against us.
00:34:32.000But listen, 97% of Americans are against these no toll road, trackership toll roads.
00:34:42.00099% are against the Supreme Court rulings about private property grabbing by private interest.
00:34:49.000You've got 90 plus percent against total open borders, and the government is going, we don't care what you want, we're going to do what we want.
00:34:56.000But that's causing an even bigger awakening.
00:34:59.000So I agree that the establishment doesn't care what we say, and it's just going forward.
00:35:03.000But I'm telling you, there is a force, a sleeping giant, that is rising big time against that in every way.
00:35:10.000Let's go ahead and talk to George in Florida.
00:35:29.000Yes, I was coming home from work and a cop showed me a policy thing that all vehicles will be checked and you're going to be subject to a field sobriety test and I just flat out refused.
00:36:05.000After a year in production and traveling to distant lands, my new film Terror Storm is complete.
00:36:10.000Shocking declassified government documents prove that western governments are orchestrating terror attacks against their own populations as a pretext to enslave them.
00:36:19.000Terror Storm proves that not only was 9-11 an inside job, but the attacks of 7-7 in London were carried out by British intelligence.
00:36:26.000Terror Storm chronicles the lies that took us to war in Iran, a White House program to disseminate fake news, NSA spying, secret police torture, the latest 9-11 information, and much, much more.
00:36:38.000Terror Storm is the definitive guide to the history of government-sponsored terrorism.
00:36:42.000It's an anthology of government crimes.
00:36:45.000Terror Storm is a film that everyone who wants to be truly informed must see.
00:36:49.000Get your copy today on InfoWars.com or PrisonPlanet.com or by calling toll-free 1-888-253-3139 or watch it right now online.
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00:41:12.000We're just going to talk about it and go over it, because it is the number one film still, and I think it was an incredible film.
00:41:18.000Shot in the high def, the casting, all of it.
00:41:20.000I don't normally spend this much time on a movie, but it gets into moral relativism, too, and the political correctness crowd that just... I mean, I can't stand Rosie O'Donnell because she's anti-gun.
00:41:31.000But she got on TV and just joked around.
00:41:34.000Everybody jokes around like everything's politically incorrect now.
00:41:39.000I mean, believe me, I watch Asian TV sometimes.
00:42:57.000It was like a random thing, and I just said, um, no you cannot search my car without a warrant.
00:43:01.000And they showed me a piece of paper and said, we got all the authority we need.
00:43:04.000No, I know, because their policy says, no, the Fourth Amendment is still in force, and it's totally criminal what's happening.
00:43:12.000The state police were trying it in Texas a few years ago until they got sued, and then now they're trying to pass legislation to where they can violate the Fourth Amendment.
00:43:21.000You can't just randomly pull cars over and demand to search them!
00:43:25.000Well, there's a Florida statute passed back in 1855, which says any executive officer under a sworn affirmation violates someone's constitutional right is considered a felony.
00:44:00.000Well, he was, he said, he even said these cops are punks today.
00:44:03.000And, uh, basically, um, when he came down, um, the police chief apologized and I just told him, I said, he ain't got no authority to override so and so.
00:44:11.000But on the board, it says you got arrested.
00:44:13.000You told the folks when you called in that you got arrested.
00:45:26.000You know, James Brolin told you that September 11th was inside out.
00:45:30.000How did he get the information actually?
00:45:33.000Well, actor James Brolin and legendary director David Lynch have gone public saying they question the official story because it doesn't make sense and it looks like a fraud to them.
00:45:46.000Let's go ahead and talk to Robert in Aurora, Colorado.
00:46:26.000On getting loose change into theaters nationwide by the middle of next year, maybe even earlier, a final edition, some footage that I've shot is going to be in it, and those guys are doing just a fabulous job.
00:47:39.000There's whole classes of drugs that were over-the-counter where you sign your name, your driver's license number, they check it, and this is preparing you for the national ID card.
00:47:53.000Now I've been in grocery store lines where they make 75-year-old women scan IDs, you notice they swipe them, To get cigarettes, to get alcohol, and what they're going to do is they have fake conservatives pushing a national sales tax as a fair tax.
00:48:08.000They're going to keep the income tax and rename it.
00:48:10.000Then they're going to have a national sales tax, but it's going to be graduated depending on your income.
00:48:15.000Some people under $15,000 a year, some say $17,000 will pay no sales tax.
00:50:01.000We've got a national ID card in Texas.
00:50:03.000As a pilot state, along with Florida and California, Since the early and mid nineties, and I made my first film, America Destroyed by Design, on that issue, and you see the film I made in 97, it's all come true.
00:50:14.000It's all that, because we had the federal documents, the executive orders.
00:50:18.000And, to make a long story short, what they do is, they have that strip on the back, and he said, step around the counter, because people, you know, filed out, and I was talking to him about five minutes, he goes, step back and look at this.
00:50:32.000And I looked, and he said, let me see your card, your driver's license.
00:50:34.000He scanned it, and it showed my age, if I had warrants, everything.
00:50:39.000And he said, oh yeah, this goes into some system.
00:50:42.000It was in the USA Today, three years ago, what was the headline?
00:54:22.000My mom had taken some of that stuff in college, so I guess that's why the books were laying around, and I'd read them.
00:54:28.000And so, you know, being a novice, I guess I knew more than the general public, so I knew that down there they did have human sacrifices, depending on which tribe it was.
00:54:36.000You know, the Aztecs killing thousands, and then other tribes and parts of history at the same time killing less.
00:54:41.000And then I saw a story in the Statesman Really attacking Mel Gibson.
00:54:46.000Like, he's trying to make them all look like a bunch of barbarous killers, and, you know, he makes them look bad.
00:54:51.000And there was this UT assistant professor who made some interesting statements.
00:54:57.000In fact, I have them here in a story we put together.
00:55:01.000She said that the Osberg and Statesman story excused human sacrifice as valid, a pious act, and done with solemnity.
00:55:12.000And regardless of how you view human sacrifice, I think Mel Gibson's allowed to make a movie about it and depict it.
00:55:19.000And people are always wanting attention to Mesoamerica.
00:55:22.000This is the second big movie that's ever been made about it, and it's been number one at the box office for two weeks, so I think it's an important subject.
00:55:30.000And just vicious attacks on Mel Gibson, saying he's attacked the Jews, now he's going after the Mayans, and I don't think that's what Mel Gibson was really trying to do here.
00:55:40.000I think he was trying to make an action-adventure movie.
00:55:45.000But joining us in studio for the rest of the hour, There's a lady who worked prominently on the film, and she's Barbara McLeod, and she is an academic Ph.D.
00:55:58.000in Anthropology from the University of Texas, 1990, specializing in Mayan languages and hieroglyphic writing, and she can speak the Mayan language, and is one of the leading experts on it, and was hired to work on the film, work closely with Mel Gibson.
00:56:15.000And I was pleased last Tuesday, or was it Wednesday, I got an email Uh, from her, uh, to our website, uh, you know, in a defense of Mel Gibson, talking about some of the things that aren't accurate, some of the things that are accurate, and, you know, talking about, you know, certainly, uh, there was violence going on with the Mayan and the Aztecs, but enough of that.
00:57:44.000How did you get into anthropology, just in a nutshell, and then how did you find yourself working on Apocalypto?
00:57:49.000Well, in a nutshell, I grew up in Missouri.
00:57:51.000I was very interested in cave exploring as a junior high school student and started getting really active in caving all the way through high school and on into college.
00:58:41.000All you have is, but when you think about what these artifacts are telling us, it looks like it's a collection of sacred water.
00:58:50.000That's why they put these pots under dripping stalactites.
00:58:53.000And there's a sacrificial complex that we're still trying to understand.
00:58:56.000But I think they may have marched sacrificial victims down into the caves and then, in a ritual context, dispatched them and often decapitated them.
00:59:06.000I've found, again, I've been the first person to find this stuff.
00:59:10.000I found walled off corners of cavern chambers with piles and piles of skulls all covered over with flowstone.
00:59:17.000In closer examination, you find the first vertebra indicating that it was decapitation, and then you find headless bodies lying around in the rest of the cave.
00:59:26.000There's a large sacrificial complex that took place in caves.
00:59:29.000Now we know that those cultures, I mean I've read this, you're the expert, they also would bound women and children and throw them into cenotes.
00:59:39.000There were times when they did make offerings of women and children, but generally speaking it was males, and generally speaking it was, at least from the picture they tell us, warriors.
00:59:50.000It was captives taken on the battlefield for the most part.
00:59:53.000But toward the end of the classic period, we're talking about 750 to 800 AD, somewhere in there, there was wide scale warfare among the Maya.
01:00:02.000And in that case, it wasn't, I don't think it was simple ritual warfare.
01:00:05.000It was competition for vital resources, which is land, water and labor.
01:00:10.000And so they're at each other's throats.
01:00:12.000You suddenly see lots and lots of evidence of very quickly installed fortifications and just general evidence of destruction of buildings.
01:00:20.000Were these different kings escalating the sacrificing as a way to also intimidate their rivals?
01:00:26.000Well, there's no clear evidence that they were escalating the sacrificing, at least nowhere near on the scale that you see in Apocalypto.
01:00:34.000In Apocalypto, the story that we're being told is that they're escalating the sacrificing because they're being beset by drought and several kinds of plagues.
01:00:43.000And I don't have any... I can't provide any archaeological evidence for this kind of thing.
01:00:48.000But it's clear that they made sacrifices about both animals and humans to propitiate the gods, to have favorable weather, And to have the God's support in warfare.
01:01:01.000Now, in the movie, they bend the people over kind of like a round pole, but then I've seen these chakmuls, you know, the person sitting with their knees up on their elbows, and then the tour guides were saying that that's where they bent them over and cut their hearts out.
01:01:17.000What would the difference be in those different sacrificial altars?
01:01:21.000Well, the sacrificial altars that they bent them over, I mean, there's archaeological evidence of that.
01:01:26.000It's probably very much like what you see depicted in the movie.
01:01:28.000In fact, there are Maya monuments that show sacrificial victims lying on their backs, raped, dead, over these monuments with a heart sitting right on top of the chest, indicating that it's just been excised.
01:01:43.000It's a central theme on a Maya monument.
01:01:46.000And there are, in archaeological context, stones that appear to have been used for this.
01:01:50.000The chakmals are Thought to be receptacles for hearts after they were extracted.
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01:07:11.000The Mayanists, or whatever you want to call them, the local Aztec groups, They like to say that there either wasn't human sacrifice going on, or if it was, it was extremely limited, and it was loving and sweet, and it wasn't bad.
01:07:26.000And my question is, is skinning people, is cutting their hearts out, is ritual torture loving and good, and are we worthy to talk about it?
01:07:34.000I mean, that's kind of the attitude, like, oh, it's so wonderful and good.
01:08:52.000I mean, if you're going to tell the whole story of the ancient Maya, you know, especially if you're going to try to do it and placate the people who want all of their positive accomplishments given equal time, you'd have a 10 hour movie.
01:09:07.000And there's no way, you know, you can't, you can't, you can't put that out there.
01:09:12.000You can't sell that to the American people.
01:09:14.000Why do these people have a problem With the film, it didn't show ritual skinning or tying people up in a ball and rolling them down the steps.
01:09:25.000It didn't show ripping the jaws off, as you mentioned in your email.
01:09:30.000Well, I think it's because it did show a level of violence that the Maya were not, as far as we know, engaged in.
01:12:14.000Well, he was a fascinating guy to watch.
01:12:17.000There was one week where we had something like 10 to 12 hour days and he was there almost all the time.
01:12:24.000And he is on top of every nuance of that film.
01:12:27.000And he's a guy that just doesn't seem to be able to sit still.
01:12:31.000If he wasn't, he'd sit down for about 15 seconds and then he'd be up and walking all around.
01:12:36.000You know, when we were actually engaged in the ADR in the sound studio, which is, you know, there's a very sensitive set of microphones, and the actors are up there at the microphones, and they've got cues to overdub what they see on the screen with the lines.
01:12:50.000And you're there trying to make sure it's as accurate as possible?
01:12:53.000I'm there to help them make it as accurate as possible, to correct any errors that may have been in the original script, and also to add off-camera lines.
01:13:02.000And I was working with a young man named Nicholas Pott, and it's important to acknowledge him.
01:13:07.000He's a native speaker who lives in Los Angeles, but he doesn't speak much English at all.
01:13:13.000He and I were conferring constantly about the best way to say something, and so we really were a team in this project.
01:13:20.000And there were times when we were up on the computer upstairs, you know, writing dialogue as well, which then they could choose from in some of their off-camera lines.
01:13:27.000But Mel is just, I mean, I'm really impressed with him as a director.
01:13:32.000He's on top of every emotional nuance of that film.
01:13:35.000Everything you see in there has passed muster with him.
01:13:40.000And especially the character development.
01:13:42.000I think the character development in this film is just absolutely superb.
01:13:59.000He's got human skulls hanging off under his own chin and hanging off his shoulders.
01:14:06.000That's fairly realistic because the ancient Maya did sometimes.
01:14:10.000Decorate themselves with human skulls and human hands skinned hands stuffed and you know hung and little garlands around their neck I mean there's a lot of evidence of this kind of thing so I think one of the most powerful things about apocalypto is the Compassion that the audience just has to feel for Jaguar paw and his community Well, I do feel compassion for him and I mean it was shocking
01:14:35.000Some have likened it to watching some anthropology film on the Discovery Channel.
01:14:42.000I mean, that was so realistic, just from what I've seen in footage of people in Brazil and places.
01:14:49.000Now, it was not quite realistic in the sense that during the period just before the Spanish arrived, Most of the people who were not actually in the urban centers were still attached to, affiliated with, and engaged in trade, commerce, and paying tribute.
01:15:04.000There weren't that many people who were living in purely travel vans.
01:15:25.000But the Mayans, from their own stories that they tell us, suggest that it was done primarily in a battlefield context, where they go out and meet warriors from other cities.
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01:20:51.000I'll have to interview you during the week, during the weekday show.
01:20:55.000We were talking during the break, maybe Thursday, but let's now try to condense all the key areas we haven't covered yet.
01:21:01.000During the break, you were making a point about how he's basically collapsing these different cultures that had some of the same foundations and history into two and a half hours.
01:21:45.000And he did it by collapsing a little bit of the pre-classic Maya culture into a chunk of the classic culture into a chunk of the post-classic culture, and created something which didn't exist.
01:21:56.000As far as we know, we have no evidence that it was anything like that.
01:21:59.000But it was made up of pieces that were accurate.
01:22:14.000In fact, he took three different, or the writers of that, took three different historical figures there in that area of the Carolinas, and kind of put them together, because in two hours you've got to.
01:22:25.000You can't go show every character everything that happened.
01:22:27.000But it was all based on real things that happened.
01:22:31.000I think that the objection that arises about Apocalypto versus The Patriot or other things, like I mentioned in my email, The Firm, which creates a rather distorted view of the legal profession in the United States, is that we assume that most of the audience, when they see a film like The Patriot or The Firm, know a little bit more about the background, the real background, and so they can contextualize what they see as a cultural mosaic or a mosaic of Of the sort you mentioned.
01:23:01.000Whereas a lot of people that see this film, Apocalypto, don't know anything about the Maya.
01:23:07.000And so the objection, which I don't share, is that the first time that people who are naïve and innocent about the Maya see something about the Maya, then they should get something that's fair and balanced.
01:23:29.000I mean, who are the groups that just think they're the best things in sliced bread, and that you can almost worship the whole Mayan system, and these other academics who get really mad and almost act like that you're not even holy enough, and I don't know about myself, to even try to discuss it?
01:23:45.000Well, first of all, a lot of these people are my friends.
01:23:48.000I've been in the field long enough that I know an awful lot of people in the field.
01:23:53.000And they aren't monolithic in their views about Apocalypto.
01:23:56.000I mean, looking at the debate that went on on this online list that I mentioned to you during the break, there are a lot of diverse views and there are some that support, as I do, Mel Gibson's right to tell a story and to use whatever narrative devices he chooses to tell that story.
01:24:11.000As you mentioned at the beginning of the show, the core purpose, the core premise of the story is an action-adventure with a foot chase in it.
01:24:19.000That's what it was conceived as originally, before the Maya were even part of it.
01:24:30.000It was going to be more of Northern North America, and I'm not quite sure what led him to the Maya, but what he did, decide on the Maya, then he recruited Richard Hansen, who is a Maya archaeologist living in, he's affiliated with a project in Washington, D.C.
01:24:43.000He works for long periods of the year in Guatemala, and he's tremendously knowledgeable about my archaeology.
01:24:52.000So he was the primary resource on the archaeology and ancient culture.
01:24:57.000And then you were the primary resource on getting the language correct.
01:25:05.000I was not involved during the production phase in Mexico.
01:25:09.000Now, it occurred to me while they were down there to contact them and sign on, and I might have been able to do it, but I was just not able to leave Austin for such a long period of time.
01:25:40.000I would say that he and I were the team that gave them what they needed, their post-production supporters of the language.
01:25:46.000Now, when you're down in Mexico, you see the Mayan folks.
01:25:50.000They look just like the folks in the movie because Mel went and got a lot of the actual people that are indigenous down there to be in the film.
01:26:11.000It depends where you are, but in Yucatan, the language that was spoken 500 years ago was probably no more different from Modern Maya than the English that was spoken 500 years ago is for modern English.
01:26:22.000It would differ primarily in terms of the vocabulary.
01:26:26.000There'd be a lot of vocabulary that we have in modern English, which would not have been in English 500 years ago.
01:27:24.000It's just when other ancient people made landfall in the Americas, and there certainly is some evidence that a Chinese expedition got to the west coast of the U.S.
01:27:33.000before Columbus got to I mean, there is definitely a lot of evidence of pre-Columbian contact, but as far as the Maya and other ancient people being regularly engaged in trans-oceanic trade, I don't think we have any significant evidence of that.
01:27:55.000Um, nor any evidence that they, uh, interbred with Chinese people.
01:27:59.000I mean, they have Mongolian-type features because the best evidence is that they came over across the Bering Strait exactly over thousands of years ago.
01:28:07.000Well, they have the Mongolian spots, too.
01:28:12.000That you see in Asians, the purple spots that CPS think the children have been beaten, but no, Asians get purple spots on their backs when they're babies.
01:28:19.000I'm telling CPS workers out there, stop grabbing the Asian people and the Mexicans' kids, because those are there until they're about five.
01:28:25.000And here's an interesting little sideline that might be worth chasing at some point.
01:28:29.000There are a lot of people of Germanic origin who also have mongrel spot and the shovel-shaped incisors.
01:28:37.000And the epicanthic eye folds because of the invasions of the Mongol horrors that made contact with and conquered Germanic people.
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01:34:10.000We've kind of gone down another path this week, getting into a little bit of history, but it illustrates what elites, what ideas can do, what the Romans did, what the Aztecs, what the Mayans were doing.
01:34:23.000This bloodlust comes up over and over again.
01:34:25.000That's really the danger of an all-powerful state, because anybody's whim can then become the norm.
01:34:31.000I really want to thank now, before the show ends, Barbara McLeod, PhD, anthropologist who worked on Apocalypto, for joining us.
01:34:39.000During the break we were talking, it's been more interesting than frankly on air, it's It's always that way, but this whole broadcast has been amazingly important and at the same time entertaining.
01:34:49.000In the film, big spikes with human heads and skulls on them.
01:34:54.000I've been down to Chichen Itza, the ball playing court.
01:34:57.000Hundreds of skulls carved into the sides.
01:34:58.000They say that the winners and the losers were killed.
01:35:08.000Well, I think the evidence really strongly points to the fact that they killed the losers.
01:35:13.000The idea of killing the winners and people playing the wins so that they can be nobly sacrificed is kind of a fascinating idea, but I don't really think it's very realistic.
01:35:23.000But, nonetheless, there's a lot of evidence of human sacrifice at Chichen Itza.
01:36:06.000Well, what I have access to, and I've actually been involved in deciphering it, and I'm one of the people who deciphered this phrase, is the last time this came around, which was back in 3113 B.C., And the cycle is roughly 5200 years.
01:36:22.000It's closer to 5129 years because the core unit is not 365, it's 360.
01:36:29.000Now they had a solar year of 365 days, but what we're talking about is the great cycle of what they call the long count.
01:36:38.000And in that phrase, for the last time this event happened, it says, will be changed the hearth at the mouth of the sky.
01:36:47.000And I think that what I write into that and read into that is that the sky was seen as a house and the hearth is the core of culture within that house.
01:37:31.000In fact, there are ancient Maya monuments that cast forward into our times and beyond.
01:37:36.000And they make it clear that they expect things to carry on.
01:37:39.000The only thing they really say about it, and again, I've been very much involved in deciphering this, is that they expect to be able to keep the gods happy.
01:37:48.000How many of the professors and academics you work with are into this now and believe it?
01:37:55.000I'm one of the few who's really explored it.
01:37:58.000No, for the most part, everybody disbelieves it.
01:38:00.000But I think that I'm one of the few who's really explored it.
01:38:04.000I have tried to build a bridge between the straight academic world and the myth makers, the people who are millennialists who really want something to happen.
01:38:14.000We're going to have to have you back before we run out of time.
01:39:54.000How similar is it to some of the tribes that were in Central North America?
01:39:57.000Because it sounds, just to my ear, somewhat similar in its cadence to some of the other Native American groups in what is the U.S. today.
01:40:07.000Well, there's really no strong evidence of affiliation with any Native North American groups, but there are some linguists who have attempted to create what they call military groups.
01:40:15.000macro-families in which they put some of the languages of the northwest coast some of the languages of California that are now extinct with the Mayans and there are a lot of other people that don't agree with that and I you know I have to kind of sit on the fence with that.
01:40:29.000How old is Mesoamerica or how long ago?
01:40:32.000Some say 30,000 20,000 to 12,000 I mean from the evidence you've got how many thousands of years ago did these Asian nomadic tribes come out of Russia down into What is Alaska today and then down into Chile?
01:40:48.000Well, there are some people who claim it's as old as 50,000 or greater.
01:40:53.000There could be two or three ice ages ago.
01:40:55.000Based upon the types of tools that they find.
01:40:58.000I would take a somewhat more conservative view, but it's also territory that I don't command very well and say, well, 10,000 years.
01:41:04.000Well, what do the majority of the quote experts say?
01:41:07.000The last one 12,000 or even before that?
01:41:24.000I'm just absolutely delighted that people all over the planet are going to get to hear it.
01:41:29.000I think that's one of the sweetest things about this movie is that it's going to expose people.
01:41:33.000To the Mayan language, and to the Maya people, and anybody who's really interested in finding out more about the Maya, if they really want the fair and balanced view, they're going to go get it.
01:43:53.000It's just one of the most remarkable things that's ever happened to me.
01:43:58.000I just decided that I discovered I had a passion for flying that was buried underneath all that fear, but it's... you know, to tell that story properly would, you know... But you know, fear really is a sickness.
01:44:09.000I see... It's a sickness, and it's also an illusion.