In this episode, I sit down with a panel of journalists, academics, and journalists to discuss the first ever Zero Hedge "insurgent" panel discussion. We talk about the origins of the term "insurrection" and what it means to be a rebel against the United States government.
00:00:00.000I want to introduce our panel of incredible people, as I said earlier, and I'm going to start from the end and give you guys a chance to introduce yourselves.
00:02:12.000Hey everybody, Glenn Greenwald, I'm a journalist, I'm the host of System Update on Rumble.
00:02:17.000I had planned to be there in person, a little logistical problems intervened and I wish I could be, but I'm really looking forward to participating.
00:02:23.000And I just want to echo Alex, I think what Zero Hedge is doing is so important, organizing these kind of substantive, structured debates among people who obviously disagree pretty strongly on things and yet nonetheless can have what I hope will be a civil and spirited debate, what I expect It will be, so I'm really looking forward to it and I appreciate being asked.
00:02:40.000Yes, that is my job, is to make sure that it maintains civility, structure, organization, and that we don't talk over each other, that we end up listening to each other.
00:02:47.000The real value of humanity, one of the most powerful tools we have is communication, so I think tonight's going to be an exemplary example of that.
00:02:55.000Let's go, let's go, let's go for this.
00:02:58.000The first question I got for you guys, and this is really for the entire panel, and anyone that wants to start it off, maybe we can start with you Edson, just because you're on the end and we can move around, is January 6, 2021.
00:03:52.000Do you guys think it was an insurrection?
00:03:54.000So I personally believe it was an insurrection.
00:03:58.000And I base that on the fact that 20 court decisions called it an insurrection.
00:04:02.000And the fact that there was a bill passed in the Senate that called them a mob of insurrectionists.
00:04:08.000I think the bill passed, or it was in the House of Representatives, 406 to 21.
00:04:12.000That was a statute to award the police officers medals.
00:04:17.000And it referred to these individuals as insurrectionists.
00:04:20.000So, I mean, I think the term can be subjective.
00:04:25.000I think, you know, People can say nobody was charged with violating Section 2383 of Title 18, which is the insurrection and rebellion statute.
00:05:14.000I would say the plot from start to finish is quite obviously an insurrection.
00:05:18.000The only way to get around that is to either justify an insurrection, which is what most conservatives do, they don't realize it, or to deny that an insurrection could ever happen.
00:05:28.000Or, if you're not aware of all the facts of what happened.
00:05:30.000i think that donald trump and his cronies had a very coherent plan that
00:05:33.000they tried to enact from start to finish starting with false claims of voter fraud
00:05:37.000leading to false slates of electors that filed themselves as state electors under
00:05:42.000perjury which is what they did up to the violence that happened on the day of the uh... on
00:08:08.000A few hundred people got manipulated into fighting the police.
00:08:12.000They were led and driven by provocateurs and other groups.
00:08:15.000They were others, then they opened the doors and the police waved them in in hundreds of videos.
00:08:19.000They walked through the velvet ropes and then they indict over a thousand people that just walked through velvet ropes.
00:08:25.000And then now we're told in the National Security Directive of President Biden, the number one threat is the American people.
00:08:31.000And he had a declaration of war yesterday against all Trump supporters and says to protect democracy, we're not going to let you vote for Trump.
00:08:38.000So as Stalin said, I care not who cast the votes.
00:08:50.000And when this happened three years ago, The Wall Street Journal had a printer retraction, but they said I was there as a coward telling people to attack.
00:08:57.000Well, no, they wouldn't let me put the video on Twitter before I was saying don't go in.
00:09:18.000Because the corrupt, evil Democratic Party and its evil twin, the Republicans, they've lost power and populism is rising.
00:09:26.000Quite frankly, this was not an insurrection.
00:09:28.000It was an insurrection that would have been guns.
00:09:30.000And it's in the Declaration of Independence that it's our right and duty to get rid of a government that's destructive of what the people want. But I'm not calling for violence. We're
00:09:39.000winning this politically, but we're being cast as about to be violent
00:09:42.000the next 10 months because all these indictments and all these attacks to not
00:09:46.000let Americans vote for who they want aren't working and are backfiring. And all the big Democrat
00:09:51.000lawyers now admit it. Axelrod admits it.
00:09:55.000They all admit this attempt, like we're in Venezuela or something, to take Trump off the ballot when he's never been convicted of insurrection.
00:10:07.000If a military tribunal found you were guilty of being involved in insurrection, that meant after the war ended... Can I ask you a question?
00:10:17.000So, do you think the Confederates during the Civil War were partaking in insurrection?
00:10:25.000I mean, in retrospect, because I wasn't alive then, I think the South got manipulated into that.
00:10:30.000I thought there was real issues from the North and South.
00:10:32.000The abolitionists, you know, had a good point, and slavery needed to end.
00:10:37.000But it was really about... So just to be clear, the person that's defending the J6 rioters won't say that the Confederate states were engaged in insurrection.
00:10:45.000No, that's not what I... See, here's what happens.
00:11:06.000I said that you said that they weren't engaged in insurrection.
00:11:08.000Do you think the Confederate States were engaged in insurrection?
00:11:10.000The Insurrection Act was that because there were rebellions during Reconstruction at the end of the Civil War and they were saying if you lead an uprising against the Northern Occupation of the South, you're precluded from running from office because they were worried about Southerners getting office again like Jefferson.
00:11:27.000No, so no, I do not support the Civil War or slavery and I'm not a quote confederate.
00:12:03.000You don't need to violate that statute in order to be partaking in an insurrection, because the Civil War was an insurrection, and nobody got charged with violating that.
00:15:30.000Yeah, I actually think what Destiny and what Ed are saying are very important.
00:15:34.000First of all, I was going to say that I think one of the problems with how these things are debated is that a lot of people these days have very binary prisms for understanding things.
00:15:42.000A lot of that comes from YouTube debate, where you have to declare yourself on one side or the other.
00:15:46.000So Destiny said, oh, everybody either hates this insurrection, thinks it's an insurrection, or they deny it happens, or they think it's good.
00:16:10.000But the fact that it's laughable to call this an insurrection is actually demonstrated by the examples that they're using.
00:16:16.000This was a three-hour riot that was extremely easily subdued.
00:16:21.000It doesn't remotely compare to any prior insurrections, let alone to the Civil War.
00:16:27.000The only people who were killed on January 6th were four people, all four of whom were Trump supporters, two of whom dropped dead of a heart attack and one from a speed overdose, because these were not exactly a well-trained militia.
00:16:41.000And when Jack Smith went to charge Donald Trump with multiple crimes, he had a lot of options to charge him with, and he charged him with a lot of crimes, including very dubious ones.
00:16:51.000He did not charge him with inciting an insurrection for reasons that I think we ought to ask ourselves why.
00:16:57.000But the fact that this is such a minor event in history is demonstrated by the fact that
00:17:02.000the media who needed this to be a major event immediately started lying about what happened,
00:17:07.000saying that Brian Sicknick was murdered when he had his head bashed in through a fight
00:17:12.000with a fire extinguisher, only to learn that actually he called his mother that night.
00:17:16.000He was fine, he died the next day of what the coroner said were natural causes.
00:17:20.000Because the media knew that if you can't say that even one person supposedly perpetrating
00:17:26.000the insurrection killed anybody, pulled out a gun, let alone discharged a weapon.
00:17:36.000And that's the reason why Trump hasn't been charged with an insurrection.
00:17:39.000The only time he ever commented on January 6th about whether he thought there should be violence or not was when he said the following.
00:17:47.000He said, I know that everyone here will soon be marching over to the Capitol building to peacefully and patriotically make your voices heard.
00:17:55.000He urged them to be peaceful in how they went there.
00:17:59.000To the extent there was violence, I think you can make the argument that the FBI informants, that even the New York Times admits were there, were the ones that urged it.
00:18:05.000But even if the people who were there were the ones responsible, at best this is a riot.
00:18:10.000You could so easily make the case that the 2020 riots Where it's a far greater insurrectionary threat than
00:18:15.000anything that happened on January 6th.
00:18:17.000That's perfectly said. I would ask the left over here, I know Ian's asked the questions.
00:18:22.000I mean, I don't know, did you guys see Biden's speech? I mean it was an hour long
00:18:26.000that no one there was good. They were all there, a million, over a million people. I was there.
00:18:31.000And then we marched down there to have another rally and then I see this
00:19:51.000So the insurrection was not just the three-hour riot that happened at the White House afterwards.
00:19:55.000I think that's the least charitable reading of everything that happened.
00:19:57.000And that's not, if you read any of the charges that either Jack Smith or the Georgia-Rico case has alleged against Trump, are saying that, in fact, not much of the focus is on the three-hour riot at all.
00:20:12.000Not much of those indictments are actually focusing on the three hour riot itself.
00:20:15.000The unprecedented act that there is no answer for that Kamala Harris or Joe Biden or Hillary Clinton have not engaged in is using knowingly false election claims for months to try to pressure state electors to change their vote and then when they wouldn't do that I can explain that if you want.
00:20:32.000elect different electors and then when they wouldn't do that create a plot to
00:20:35.000create fake electors and then when Pence wouldn't accept that try to
00:20:39.000capitalize on that final three-hour riot at the Capitol building to also make
00:20:43.000phone calls and tell people to decertify their vote or to switch their electors.
00:20:47.000JFK, Obama, and alternate electors. No they didn't. I can explain that if you want.
00:20:54.000Yeah please do. Right yeah so so in 19 what was it 1960 actually so 1960 JFK and
00:21:02.000Nixon there was a dispute because there was a recount.
00:21:07.000I think JFK ended up winning by like 150 votes.
00:21:10.000At the time, each state decided, or the state decided to certify two sets of electors.
00:21:17.000Decided to choose two different slates of electors.
00:21:29.000What happened with Trump was that Trump tried to get the states to certify a second slate of electors based off of conspiracy theory crap that Electrumistola...
00:22:06.000What happened was that they did a recount, and Kennedy ended up winning by, I think, 150 votes, and they chose the Kennedy electors, they certified the Kennedy electors, and Kennedy ended up winning that state.
00:22:20.000What Trump did was Trump tried to get the states to certify an alternate slate of electors.
00:22:26.000They refused because the court said there's no no they're there.
00:22:31.000And then when that didn't go through, Trump decided you get his own slate of electors above the states that were not certified and tried to use that to force Mike Pence to say that Joe Biden didn't win these electoral votes.
00:22:47.000If we want to be precise in terms of the scope of the debate, I think it's about January 6th, and so the lead up to it might be relevant to some of the criminal indictments, but it's technically speaking outside the scope of the January 6th discussion.
00:23:03.000If we're going to bring it into the discussion, I think there's an operative word there, knowingly.
00:23:09.000And that's operative within the context of the charging documents, but the idea that Trump thought that he lost the election and he was knowingly lying and knowingly engaging.
00:23:24.000No, he believes, I guarantee it, whether you believe it or not, Trump believes that the election was stolen and he was using the legal recourses available to him at the advice of his legal advisors.
00:24:24.000So you know what the United States would usually do?
00:24:28.000If we do want insurrection, you'd know it.
00:24:30.000It would probably be for things like circumventing the vote, like asking the Vice President, for instance, to unilaterally win the election.
00:24:35.000That would be something that we might sanction another country for.
00:24:37.000So you can't vote for somebody Because they make up a bunch of stuff, and he's not found guilty anywhere, but you guys just parrot it over again like two men.
00:24:44.000If you don't like the Constitution, that's your fault, Alex.
00:24:47.000If you don't like the Constitution, that's on you.
00:24:49.000Really, then why are you saying that Section 3 of Amendment 14 requires a conviction?
00:24:52.000Alex, why did you say that Section 3 of Amendment 14 requires a conviction?
00:25:17.000Glenn's in remote from Brazil, so Glenn, anytime you have something to say, it's helpful for me if I see a visual cue, maybe your hand goes up, I can tell you have something you're gonna say now, but let us know.
00:25:26.000Let me just say, what happens is when you Gather together to debate a particular question.
00:25:31.000You're supposed to debate that particular question.
00:25:34.000The particular question that we were presented with is we're going to debate January 6th and whether it was an insurrection.
00:25:42.000And Ed, for not wanting to debate that, for wanting to debate a whole set of other issues about whether Trump acted improperly, whether he was naughty and the things he did after the election, because there is no argument to make that what happened on January 6th rises to the level of insurrection, and that's why an extremely aggressive prosecutor named Jack Smith Decided not to charge Donald Trump with that crime because he knew there was no way that he could possibly bring a conviction against anybody let alone Donald Trump who told everybody to be peaceful when going to the Capitol.
00:26:14.000about whether or not that was actually an insurrection, whether that rose to that level.
00:26:17.000And even in a colloquial sense, what we called an insurrection in the past
00:26:21.000is in a completely different universe. But on the issue of whether there was a real belief
00:26:26.000on the part of Donald Trump that elections were stolen, I don't understand how anybody
00:26:30.000could doubt that aside from the fact that you have to get into Trump's head.
00:26:32.000In the last three elections that Democrats lost in 2000, 2004, and 2016, a very large number of
00:26:40.000Democrats believed and asserted that the election was stolen, that the election was stolen and was
00:26:45.000the byproduct of fraud and the president was as a result illegitimate.
00:26:48.000When I started writing about politics, did that have a vibe?
00:26:51.000The idea that George Bush was the real loser of the election, Al Gore won, was the view of every single liberal and Democrat that I knew.
00:26:57.000In 2004, there were objections claiming that Karl Rove had interfered in the Ohio vote with the Diebold machines and cheated to make John Kerry lose and George Bush win.
00:27:08.000And then in 2016, Hillary Clinton and the Democrats said that Donald Trump was the illegitimate winner, that Russia had helped him, and they tried to convince the Electoral College to abandon the certified results of the state.
00:27:20.000Obviously, you go back to 1960, and a lot of historians believe that election was stolen.
00:27:26.000So it's not like Donald Trump was the first person to ever wonder or believe that an election was stolen from him.
00:27:31.000It's a very significant tradition in American political history.
00:27:34.000If you know anything about politics before 2016, And if Trump believed that the election was stolen, and while it's true, a lot of people in the Justice Department and a lot of people in the White House told him they didn't think it was.
00:27:44.000He did have advisors and lawyers telling him that they think there was evidence of it.
00:27:50.000Then the question is over, even on these other issues about whether or not Trump engaged in some conspiracy against the United States.
00:27:56.000But the issue is is January 6th an insurrection.
00:27:59.000Well that's right, but Glenn, Glenn, since they've been...
00:33:24.000The whole thing is a big rotten... So they can find partisan... They found the Secretary of State of Maine took Trump off the ballot because she had one hearing in a YouTube video.
00:33:46.000I actually want to ask a question that I would love to hear everybody's answer to.
00:33:50.000But before I do that, I just want to say about federal judges.
00:33:53.000This year, in the last six months, four different federal judges, a district court judge and then an appellate court unanimously, found that the Biden administration gravely violated the First Amendment.
00:34:02.000In fact, the greatest assault on free speech the court set in decades.
00:34:06.000Maybe the history of the judiciary by systemically pressuring big tech to censor the Internet and purge it of all dissent by threatening Big tech companies using the CIA, the FBI, and the CDC with punishment if they didn't censor the internet.
00:34:18.000Now, you may not agree, but according to your standard, four different federal judges concluded that, which is infinitely worse in terms of an abridgment of freedom or an attack on the Constitution than anything that Trump is accused of doing.
00:34:38.000Glenn, Glenn, please finish your point and then we're going to move on to the response.
00:34:43.000The question that you asked Ian is, is this a coup?
00:34:46.000If you look at how other coups are perpetrated, and I think a lot of this is that if you're an American and you have this very soft history, you don't know what a coup is.
00:34:54.000You think that what CNN tells you a coup is a coup.
00:34:57.000Usually the way coups work is the leader of the country, whoever is in charge of the military, orders the military to seize control of the levers of power.
00:35:05.000Trump was the commander in chief on January 6th.
00:35:07.000The military was duty bound to obey his orders.
00:35:10.000They had a right to disobey if they were illegal, but If this were a coup, why didn't Trump order the military to seize control of power and turn over the election process to him?
00:35:21.000Why didn't he order the armed factions that form the law enforcement part of the military and the executive branch that serve under his command to do that as well?
00:35:54.000Biden doesn't have the authority to do that.
00:35:56.000He still doesn't have the authority to do that.
00:35:58.000The Supreme Court that Trump has his picks on, that's currently 6-3 conservative, they're the ones who are going to make the final decision on that.
00:36:04.000I wanted to be known that every single time you try to talk about any of this stuff related to Trump, it's so many Democrat names that comes out of people's mouths.
00:36:10.000I don't know why people can't just engage on the facts of what happened on and in the events leading up to June 6th.
00:36:16.000Without having to invoke every other Democratic leader's name.
00:36:26.000There was a million, over a million people, and they said police were attacking, and we got there like shooting tear gas, and then a bunch of feds helped break through with some idiots that got mad, had a brawl, and then the cops go, come on in!
00:37:10.000It's unprecedented that a President of the United States would do everything within his power to prevent the peaceful transfer of power to the next President.
00:37:17.000He said, I want you to peacefully march down to the Capitol.
00:37:24.000No, no, it took him an- no, it was the riot was happening, he spoke for an hour and a half, it started then, then he got back to the White House, watched it like 30-40 minutes, and then shot a video.
00:37:37.000He got back to the White House, he got Mark Meadows delivered a note on his desk that Ashley Babbitt had been shot and he sat there sipping Diet Coke for an hour and a half.
00:37:46.000The guy that you called your leader, how many pardons did Trump do for the patriots that got unfairly charged with crimes?
00:37:54.000Why didn't Donald Trump pardon any of those people?
00:38:51.000Everybody on X, Kim's saying they didn't beat a woman to death.
00:38:53.000Can I just- Can I just- Can I just- Can I just- Can I just- Can I just- Can I just- Can I just- Can I just- Can I just- Can I just- Can I just- Can I just- Can I just- Can I just- Can I just- Can I just- Can I just- Can I just- Can I just- Can I just- Can I just- Can I just- Can I just- Can I just- Can I just- Can I just- Can I just- Can I just- Can I just- Can I just- Can I just- Can I just- Can I just- Can I just- Can I just- Can I just- Can I just- Can I just- Can I just- Can I just- Can I Woo!
00:40:48.000Yeah, let Ed finish his point because we're going to go to Darren Reilly.
00:40:50.000He said on his way to the Capitol building that they're going to take the Capitol and insert their own government.
00:40:57.000Yeah, so out of a million people, a few lunatics were there, and you call it like Martians invading and blowing the Earth up, like Glenn Greenwald said.
00:42:42.000The scope, I think, matters, and that's what we're really getting at when we talk about insurrection.
00:42:47.000The courts are politically weaponized, so I wouldn't even rest the legitimacy and the question on the determinations of the courts, which we can see are Running away with pretty wild and ridiculous theories.
00:43:12.000That's relevant to the ultimate question of whether it was a coup, whether it was an insurrection.
00:43:17.000And as I said before, the stuff about Trump and the legal theory behind his, you know, multiple part plan, that could be an interesting discussion.
00:43:28.000It's technically outside the scope of the debate.
00:43:31.000But again, I would reiterate anyone who knows Trump, anyone who knows people who knows Trump, A hundred percent certainty.
00:43:38.000Trump genuinely believes that the election was stolen.
00:43:45.000Many of his advisors were trying to sabotage him from day one.
00:43:49.000Just because he was advised by one of these snakes doesn't mean that he therefore agrees with what they say.
00:43:55.000He agreed with the people who told him it was stolen and that he had legal recourse to address that, which he implemented.
00:44:03.000So there's nothing that rises to an insurrection or coup about that either, even though that's outside of the scope of our discussion for today.
00:44:11.000So, uh, Cassidy Hutchison, uh, said that Trump said to Mark Meadows, I don't want people to know we lost.
00:45:02.000So, you're going to tell me that the people that testified under oath are the liars, but the people that said things in the public but failed to say anything under oath are the ones that are telling the truth?
00:47:10.000I'm going to go take a piss and I'll let you tell people fairytales.
00:47:17.000But what we're happening is, Darren is going to continue what you were saying about finishing up your thought, and then we're going to Glenn Greenwald.
00:47:23.000Yeah, well, the thought was just about Ms.
00:47:25.000Hutchinson, and she said a lot of things.
00:47:27.000I believe she was the one who said that Trump reached over to the steering wheel and, you know, told the Secret Service this or that, which was a bizarre thing because the Secret Service agents in question weren't the ones that were called upon to testify under oath.
00:47:41.000Some of them testified the same thing that Cassidy Hutchinson said.
00:47:45.000No, the Secret Service actually said we would love to testify and they weren't allowed to.
00:47:49.000The two Secret Service agents in question, that specific anecdote, were not allowed to testify.
00:47:56.000So why would they take the second-hand report from Hutchinson when they could have interrogated directly the people who would have been direct witnesses to that?
00:48:07.000Not those two specific agents, but why not?
00:48:10.000Other agents in the car with Trump testified for the JSEC's committee.
00:48:14.000I don't know why they would or wouldn't testify or have particular people testify, but other people in that car did.
00:48:26.000The January 6th Committee, and that's what Alex was alluding to just a second ago, is one of the biggest shams in the history of Congress because what happened with the January 6th Committee was we had a long history of 225 years of tradition in the United States Congress where whatever investigative commissions would be created within the Congress, the minority leader and the majority leader would each select the members of that committee to ensure there was fair representation by both parties.
00:48:51.000Nancy Pelosi For the first time in the history of the United States, a Speaker of the House refused to allow the Republicans who were chosen for that committee by Kevin McCarthy, at the time the Republican Minority Leader, to be seated on the panel.
00:49:08.000And as a result, the Republicans said, we're going to have nothing to do with this.
00:49:11.000the only quote unquote Republicans that were chosen was Liz Cheney who ended up losing
00:49:22.000It was a completely partisan commission.
00:49:25.000And on top of that, none of the videotapes that were available was made available to
00:49:30.000the public except for very deceitfully chosen snippets by Adam Schiff and by Liz Cheney.
00:49:38.000And it was only within the last several months that we saw all of the video footage and what it showed makes a joke of the idea that this was a coup.
00:49:46.000You had people peacefully walking into the Capitol, led by many
00:49:49.000of the police officers who encouraged them to enter
00:49:59.000And that's what makes this whole debate such a preposterous joke.
00:50:03.000If you look at how coups are carried out in other countries,
00:50:06.000you could make a much better case that the Black Lives Matter
00:50:09.000protests of 2020 was an insurrectionary movement.
00:50:12.000And the reason it matters, Destiny, is because if you're going to make arguments, there has to be an important test, which is do you apply the same principles you're claiming to profess and believe in?
00:50:21.000to cases where it undermines your partisan allegiance and your ideology,
00:50:25.000not only where it helps it. That's one of the key tasks for determining the authenticity of your
00:50:29.000argument. And so if you don't think the 2020 protest movement was an insurrectionary movement
00:50:34.000against the United States government, there's no way to claim what January 6th was, especially
00:50:38.000since Trump could have done so much more to cause a coup that he did not do because that wasn't his
00:50:43.000aim ever. If you wanna talk about applying the same standard, would you have been okay in the
00:50:47.000year 2000 if Gore refused to certify the vote because he didn't like what's happening in
00:50:50.000Florida? A lot of Democrats did want to do that.
00:50:54.000Can you answer that question? Glenn, answer the question.
00:50:55.000Yeah, and I wouldn't have actually, yes, a lot of Democrats were angry about that.
00:50:59.000I'm asking you would be okay personally if he refused to certify the vote?
00:51:04.000I think there were two arguments. You wanna answer the question.
00:51:07.000In 2016, would you have been okay if Biden- One of the questions is that Gore,
00:51:12.000Because if you really believe that an election is stolen, as the Democrats claim they did, then it is kind of odd to say, we're just going to concede that and allow George Bush to march into power, even though we believe that he actually stole the election.
00:51:25.000That is kind of an odd way to go about it.
00:52:09.000If he had ordered the military or some other FBI or any of those agencies, the CIA, to go and use violence on domestic soil in order to ignore those court rulings the way people do when they're trying to implement coups, you would have a good argument.
00:52:30.000He wasn't arrested by the military, which is what happens in coups.
00:52:34.000So much of this is because you only started paying attention to politics in 2016, you only live in the United States, you have no idea about history or anything that happens in other countries, you have no idea what a coup is!
00:52:46.000Glenn, you bring that up and you're trying to use Hawaii as an example for something that was comparable, where both slates of electors were actually duly elected by the people there, in the 60s!
00:52:55.000Hawaii and South Carolina, these other historical examples that people go to from multiple slates of electors, are not at all comparable!
00:53:01.000Both of these things happened prior to 2016.
00:55:06.000That second clip was from after the violence had become, and so he was kind of doing damage control, I think, at that point.
00:55:13.000I just don't understand all of the insanely arbitrary caps that we're trying to create to try to say that it wasn't a coup.
00:55:18.000Well, there was violence, but there wasn't enough.
00:55:20.000There was a subversion of the democratic process, but it didn't end up working.
00:55:24.000If the plan would have gone as Donald Trump wanted it to have gone, Which is Vice President Pence unilaterally tossing out the Electoral College vote, and if Donald Trump would have retained power past when he was supposed to lose it, what is that if not a coup?
00:56:23.000Glenn, what would you call it if the president was able to entrench his power by asking his vice president to throw out the vote unilaterally, which is what he was trying to do?
00:56:37.000That shows the weakness of the argument, but if that had happened, my guess is it would have ended up in the Supreme Court, the Supreme Court would have made the decision about whether Mike Pence exercised his proper authority as Vice President, and then Donald Trump, if he had run out of options, would have left the White House on January 20th without any need for military force or police force, exactly how he did, and I would have called that the exhaustion of all of the legal remedies available to the President in the event that he takes on the election.
00:57:01.000Exactly, and therefore it would have been just the way The Bush v. Gore thing played out.
00:57:06.000Exhausting your legal options, getting up to the Supreme Court, the Supreme Court makes the determination.
00:57:12.000If both of you accept that then, then if the Supreme Court says that because of Amendment 14, Section 3, Trump can't be on the ballot, you would both accept that as well?
00:57:21.000I wouldn't, but I think that would be authoritative.
00:58:05.000He didn't do that and he left is the point and that's the reality and now they say we can't vote for him even though we all know Biden's gonna win by 10 million votes.
00:58:15.000That's why we call it an attempted coup and not an actual successful coup.
00:58:18.000Alex, do you think that Trump was responsible for this thing on January 6th?
00:58:49.000The reason why he didn't call them off is because Kim, Giuliani, and Eastman were making phone calls to other senators and congressmen asking them to decertify the electoral vote.
00:59:04.000I'm saying that as the right was raging on and he was sitting there sipping his Diet Coke, if this really made him and his followers look bad, why didn't Donald Trump make a video immediately?
00:59:12.000Yeah, I'm about to do it, because I can talk over you really easy.
00:59:14.000That's what you've been doing the whole time.
01:00:50.000If they bring in, which they've done, 10 million illegal aliens in the last three years, and then that gives them, with the congressional seats and the census, more Democrat seats in the Congress, is that not... Undocumented aliens, undocumented immigrants are not voting.
01:01:36.000Okay, so why don't we ask the Oath Keepers, the Three Percenters, the Proud Boys, the ones who were actually indicted and convicted of seditious conspiracy.
01:03:40.000They're not saying that Donald Trump personally communicated to them to go to the Capitol.
01:03:45.000What they're saying is the reason why they were there, which I think over 147 convicted people have thus far in their convictions, have said the reason why they were there is because Trump called them to go there.
01:04:42.000That Trump helped incite this... Well, just because they thought they were helping Trump, that doesn't mean that Trump told them to do that.
01:04:51.000Let's look at the actions... It's like, wait, wait, Alex.
01:04:55.000It's like saying, you know, Charles Manson presumably thought Helter Skelter was, you know, telling him to kill...
01:05:59.000Let me explain it. What Trump did was, Trump laid out very precisely exactly what he believed had happened.
01:06:05.000He thought that the vote was being stolen, that our country was being taken from us.
01:06:08.000Not believed, what he wanted others to believe.
01:06:11.000That Congress wasn't acting, that Mike Pence was supposed to be the guy to do it, but he hadn't heard good things about them, and they needed to go down to the Capitol building to protest.
01:06:47.000Do you think it's good for the opposing party, when a guy's way ahead in the polls, to remove someone from the ballot?
01:06:53.000It's not about him being ahead in the polls or not, it's about whether or not he engaged in insurrection, and if the self-executing part of the 14th Amendment allows states to remove him from the ballot.
01:07:01.000So, where's the, where's the, where's the conviction?
01:07:04.000Where's Trump found guilty of intrusion?
01:07:06.000You don't need a conviction for the 14th Amendment!
01:07:26.000If you think it's so bad that courts are kicking him off the ballot, what do you think about Trump doing the birtherism card for Obama for how many years?
01:07:32.000That was the first big political thing he was known for, was challenging whether Obama was even born in the United States in an attempt to get him kicked off the ballot!
01:08:53.000So, first of all, on the issue of the ballots, there have been split decisions on this, and even Democratic judges in Colorado and then the Democratic, very partisan, Secretary of State in Rhode Island, as well as in California, have all said they don't think it's appropriate to remove Trump from the ballot because he has not yet been charged with, let alone convicted of, insurrection.
01:09:11.000So I want to be very deferential to Destiny's incredible achievements in constitutional scholarship, but there are actually a lot of even Democratic Party elected officials who are saying, as well as Judges of the Colorado Supreme Court who are appointed by Democratic Party governors who are saying that you cannot actually remove somebody because to remove them from the ballot is to punish them for a crime, insurrection, that Trump has never been charged with and therefore has never had the opportunity to defend himself the way a criminal does.
01:10:08.000I'm very confident they'll decide Trump can remain on the ballot and then that will resolve that issue.
01:10:12.000The question I have, I have a few questions quickly.
01:10:14.000One is, why didn't anybody like Jack Smith charge Trump with engaging in an insurrection?
01:10:20.000If Trump Was engaged in insurrection or inciting an insurrection, you would hope, I would think, that he would be charged with that.
01:10:26.000I don't think he was, so I'm happy he wasn't.
01:10:28.000But for those of you thinking he was, why wasn't he charged with it?
01:10:31.000And then the second one is, I just want to know, given that the 2020 riots did have a lot of people in there who were non-violent and were there not for insurrectionary reasons, but had a lot of people who were anarchists and insurrectionists and who engaged in a lot of violence, a lot more than was done on January 6th, Do you also think that the riots of 2020 constituted an insurrection?
01:10:52.000I'm just trying to understand to get a sense for what your definition of insurrection is.
01:10:55.000Glenn, do you think that the 1992 riots... Can you just answer what I asked?
01:12:28.000I'd have to go back and really study the 1992 riots to see the extent of the violence.
01:12:32.000But I do think that you're asking that indicates why the 2020 riots are way closer to an insurrection than anything happened after the 2020 election.
01:12:41.000And the reason you're afraid to say that it is an insurrection is purely for ideological and partisan ends.
01:12:47.000There's riots, there's riots every week in America.
01:12:49.000The Democrats were saying the Black Lives Matter riots were good, and bailed out.
01:12:53.000The Democrats were saying be violent every week.
01:12:55.000Everybody get the clubs, get in, get in, get in, get in, get in, get in, get in, get in, get in, get in, get in, get in, get in, get in, get in, get in, get in, get in, get in, get in, get in, get in, get in, get in, get in, get in, get in, get in, get in, get in, get in, get in, get in, get in, get in, get in, get in, get in, get in, get in, get in, get in, get in, get in, get in, get in, get in, get in, get in, get in, get in, get in, get in, get in, get in, get in, get in, get in, get in, get in, I want to let Stephen finish this off.
01:13:15.000When we're talking about an insurrection, I think all three of us here would agree that if there was a congressional session or a state legislative session and people were voting on it and BLM rioters went up and they tried to firebomb the house to stop the vote, I think all of us would agree that's an insurrection.
01:13:31.000But you guys, you guys, you guys, you guys, hello, oh my god, I almost finished a sentence.
01:13:38.000Way more violent stomach capitals than Trump people.
01:13:43.000You keep bringing back the amount of violence.
01:13:45.000The amount of violence isn't relevant.
01:13:47.000All of us here agree that, obviously, over the entire course of the BLM riots, over the course of the BLM riots, there was lots of violence.
01:13:57.000I think everybody on this side of the table is okay with charging and convicting anybody that was guilty of a violent act.
01:14:05.000However, violence, no matter how much, does not make an insurrection.
01:14:09.000It's the obstruction or rebellion against the United States for the Jack Smith obstruction charge obstructing an official process like certifying the vote.
01:14:41.000I have a question about the 14th Amendment for destiny or anyone.
01:14:45.000So let's assume that it doesn't require a conviction.
01:14:49.000In your view, Who is most appropriate to make that determination?
01:14:55.000The answer, the real answer is it's hard to tell.
01:15:00.000Personally, I don't like the way the 14th Amendment Section 3 is written.
01:15:03.000I've got a lot of friends who'll hate me for saying that.
01:15:05.000And I think that the Supreme Court probably will rule against it.
01:15:07.000Because the problem with the 14th Amendment is the self-executing part of it means basically anybody involved in that balloting process of putting them on the ballot could make that determination.
01:15:15.000So you basically agree it has to go up to the Supreme Court and be decided before he can be justly removed from office?
01:15:22.000The Declaration of Independence, and you want to talk about insurrection, I want to fix this peacefully.
01:15:28.000But I have a right, not from the Declaration of Independence, it already points out what's there, to abolish a government when the majority of us agree we're done with it.
01:15:35.000So and you got all these movies about civil war the Democrats are putting out Obama's putting out you guys better Hope that doesn't happen We're trying to fix this peacefully, but this is a load of crap to claim that Republicans and conservatives are this super viral evil white supremacist terror group they're planning crap no one's buying that and conservatives and populists and America first or see how we're being set up and You stay set up, but Donald Trump is the one setting you up.
01:19:21.000And it's going to be General Flynn making this claim?
01:19:23.000You'll have 5 million views, and it'll be you, and it'll be all the news articles where Milley says he'll resign if Trump's National Guard, and then they did it again, and then General Flynn's brother... That wasn't for January 5th, that was the Rockingham City protests.
01:19:47.000Why would Trump care if Milley would resign after all the deep state?
01:19:51.000If they're all part of the swamp, why wouldn't he just do it anyway if that's what's right?
01:19:53.000Trump is the ultimate sort of one that asks you, you're not going to answer that question either.
01:19:59.000What's going to happen is they're all going to get it.
01:20:02.000And that's the whole, they're all gonna show it, and then we'll see.
01:20:06.000Yeah, this is making me think about media manipulation in general, and how sometimes you see things, sometimes you don't, sometimes things are real, sometimes they're not, and it leads me to my next question, general for everybody.
01:20:16.000And by the way, all six of you are doing phenomenally, especially you, Glenn, killing it from Brazil, my man.
01:20:22.000Would you guys think this election was stolen?
01:20:25.000100%. Absolutely not. And it's my right to say that, but then, oh, covering up the windows
01:20:32.000with signs and then all these trucks pulling in and then the graph where Trump's above
01:20:36.000and it perfectly shoots up and then wins. I guess define stolen. Define that for me
01:20:40.000before we answer the question. Well, I mean, as Professor Epstein and others have said,
01:20:45.000they do it way before suppressing the 100% Biden laptop, giving you 96% Google Democrat
01:20:52.000I mean, it's all the stealing's done before in the algorithm and the censorship of the control.
01:20:57.000I remember five years ago when I was being deplatformed, they were denying I was being deplatformed and saying there was no censorship.
01:21:04.000Now we know from the weaponization hearings that all this is going on and now they're telling us you can't vote for him because he said we won't let you vote for him.
01:21:13.000Why is it, if the election was being stolen, why did every single person that Donald Trump trusted to investigate come back and say there was no evidence?
01:21:22.000It was not a whole bunch of his lawyers.
01:21:24.000Most of his legal counsel said that the few that he had an affair with were crazy.
01:21:28.000You just went in two seconds from everyone to most.
01:21:35.000Every single person that Donald Trump trusted to investigate, meaning the Vice President, the Department of Justice, the Cyber Security Division of the Department of Homeland Security, all of his White House counsel, every- I know how it works, I know, you're farming TikTok clips, okay?
01:22:48.000you know i guess that's really wise folks let's let's ask them i want to ask
01:22:51.000when you think that when do you think that this is the same stone
01:22:56.000i think election was rigged I don't, I'm not somebody who thinks the election, that there's evidence conclusive that the election was stolen.
01:23:02.000I do think we should be a lot more attentive to when election processes get changed out of the blue.
01:23:08.000Like, oh, because there's COVID, we're going to have a ton of new conventions for how we do mail-in ballots.
01:23:14.000I think there's a lot of potential for fraud there.
01:23:16.000I don't think there's evidence that I've seen, at least, that's conclusive that the 2020 election was stolen.
01:23:20.000I do think though, it was rigged in all sorts of ways
01:23:23.000from Internet censorship to all kinds of interference on the part
01:23:27.000of the US security state lying and saying that a very incriminating
01:23:30.000story about Joe Biden was the byproduct of Russian disinformation
01:24:23.000The US security state, the corporate media, Twitter and Facebook did that way, way worse.
01:24:27.000Stealing the election is dumping ballots that were legitimately
01:24:31.000cast or fabricating ballots in favor of one candidate or the other that actually weren't cast.
01:24:36.000Manipulating the machines in order to have the loser be That's what I would distinguish between rigging and stealing.
01:24:43.000Do you think that Donald Trump asking Jeffrey Clark to go and threaten the DOJ that if they don't sign on to a false letter trying to bully states into claiming there was mass election fraud by claiming the DOJ had actually done something when they hadn't?
01:24:58.000Do you think that would be considered an act of corruption?
01:25:01.000The whole point is, if Trump legitimately believed that the election was stolen, as Democrats believed in 2000, 2004, 2016... This is right.
01:25:13.000I just can't do it in seven questions.
01:25:15.000If Trump believed genuinely that the election was stolen, then all of those steps that he undertook to try and present to Congress the way to alleviate the stolen election, to have courts reverse the stolen election, to have Mike Pence exercise what he thought was his constitutional authority, Might have been wrongful, but they weren't illegal, and they most definitely weren't a coup.
01:25:33.000If he thought that the election was stolen, he was allowed to tell the DOJ that they needed to sign on to a false letter claiming they'd found election fraud?
01:25:41.000Otherwise he would replace Rosen with Clark?
01:25:43.000That was something he was allowed to do?
01:26:04.000No, but I mean, we were sitting here, like, guys, they said it was worse than Pearl Harbor in 9-11.
01:26:10.000Like Glenn says, this is... Alex, you pointed out, oh, that the votes, they went up way at night, they went up way high, Trump was winning and all of a sudden Biden pulled ahead at like 1 a.m. Red Mirage. Yeah, but do you understand that the
01:26:30.000media basically told the American public that this is what happens basically every election?
01:26:36.000Yeah, they pre-programmed it at Red Mirage. No, do you understand? No, it does happen
01:26:39.000every election. Do you understand what actually, why that happened? No, I'm not smart enough
01:26:43.000to understand. The trucks all, when they shut down the polling places and the trucks
01:26:47.000pulled in and they blocked the windows out and ran the same ballots over and over
01:27:48.000Biden pulls way ahead in the big cities, just like everybody that was paying attention would have known.
01:27:54.000That's why they had to, all over the, block the windows out, kick everybody out, claim water mains broke, let me talk, let me talk, and then magically, on the surveillance cameras, just keep loading the machines over and over again.
01:28:06.000But let's, you're right, no no no, let's stop.
01:28:10.000You're right, no no, I agree with you.
01:28:12.000Trump actually lost, so why are you so scared to let him run again?
01:28:29.000But let's go back to the pulling out votes or tabulating votes multiple times.
01:28:34.000Did you actually watch more than the 14 second clip that Giuliani put out there where they Purportedly pulled out ballots from under the table.
01:30:38.000I think what Biden did, I think what Biden did was, here's what Biden did for the shot, okay?
01:30:42.000What happened was, Rappensperger and everybody in Georgia looked over all the tapes you're claiming about, but the ballots being ran three times, not only was that information false, Trump was told that it was false, Trump knew that it was false, Trump repeated it over and over again, including in a call to Rappensperger, and for Finally, Giuliani has come out saying that it was false, but it was his First Amendment right to lie about it when Ruby Freeman took him to court for defamation because he lied about something you could clearly see on video evidence.
01:31:05.000Okay, well this is a question, Darren, firstly, do you think, if you want to talk about it, do you think the election was rigged or stolen, but also is it protected speech to question an election and claim that it was stolen?
01:31:17.000course it is. That's a great question. I subscribe to the sort of rigged versus
01:31:21.000stolen distinction and I'm more in the rigged category and I think that's the more meaningful
01:31:26.000type of interference is the censorship is all of the other tools that have been deployed in order to
01:31:34.000rig the election. I think that's more significant and then the sort of more hyperbolic claims
01:31:43.000regarding hacking the machines and or you know so forth.
01:31:48.000The claims without these kinds of things.
01:31:51.000So then you agree that Trump was wrong when he said it was a stolen election?
01:31:57.000Well, it depends what specific claim he's using.
01:32:14.000But see, we're going to have to be honest here.
01:32:15.000The point is, is that the State Department runs around the world looking at everybody else's elections, and the number one thing you get sanctions for is taking a candidate off the ballot.
01:32:24.000And that's what Democrats are doing right now, and America sees that.
01:33:10.000What happened is the only people who have standing in Colorado to bring a suit are people who can vote in the Republican primaries, which means either Republican voters or independent voters.
01:33:19.000Although the suit was brought in their name, the lawsuit was spearheaded and was paid for and was organized by a Democratic Party-aligned group called CRU that boasted of this and took credit for it.
01:33:30.000So yes, the suit was brought in their name.
01:33:32.000Yeah, Glenn, we had some audio feedback, Glenn, if you can hear us.
01:33:37.000We're going to request the... We had some buzzing, Glenn.
01:33:41.000I want to make sure that everything you said is clearly heard.
01:33:44.000So we're going to fix that and then get back to you.
01:33:49.000Anyway, I don't know how much of that you heard, but what I was saying was that in Colorado, in order to have standing... Hey, Glenn, stay there.
01:33:56.000We're going to have to reconnect with you.
01:35:03.000Because Trump is always calling for supporters.
01:35:05.000He also called for them to fight like hell and Giuliani says that's a trial by... Fight like hell means for our freedom and our vote and our country.
01:35:10.000Okay, and people can say things that they don't mean in order to escape.
01:35:13.000Hey, when you go to a high school football game, a pep rally, and then the cheerleaders go, fight, fight, fight, fight!
01:35:24.000I think the thing that's most instructive, the things that's most instructive to see what Donald Trump wanted to happen that day is that when he sat down and he watched the violence unfolding on TV, when he saw the people fighting with cops, when he saw, when he got notification that Ashley Babbitt had been shot, Donald Trump did not take steps to stop the violence that day.
01:35:40.000Instead, him and Giuliani made phone calls to senators and congressmen trying to get them to stall the vote.
01:35:45.000What do you guys think ethically about people in politics telling people to go fight?
01:35:53.000Look, we're not a neutered population.
01:35:55.000I mean, I have Democrats, during the impeachment for this, they shut it down when finally Trump put a five minute video on of Democrats saying, attack them at grocery stores, attack them at gas stations, attack!
01:36:19.000Nobody is upset because Donald Trump said "fight like hell."
01:36:23.000People are upset because for months or years, really even in 2016, Donald Trump has consistently attacked and undermined the electoral process with absolutely no good reason.
01:36:37.000He was a Russian agent and set the deep state on him for the four years of his administration.
01:36:42.000Is there any evidence Trump's a Russian agent?
01:36:47.000No, but that's why he wasn't convicted or charged with any crimes for it.
01:36:49.000No, but they were the ones saying that the American voters were manipulated by the Russians.
01:39:55.000They said Rams was a hero and did nothing wrong.
01:39:58.000Now they finally indicted him because they know it's a weak spot and their operation only lasted for six months.
01:40:04.000Let me tell you, we're not playing clips for tit for tat here, but everybody's gonna, I want everybody on X to get these statements and put all the clips of women putting onions in their eyes and the cops fake arresting people and high-fiving and saying, I'm a federal agent, I just helped run the attack.
01:40:19.000They're gonna string all these videos out.
01:40:43.000I think with the illegal alien voting thing is what's happening is they're coming in and then they're being counted in the census, which then adds more electoral votes.
01:42:37.000Well, I can attempt to answer the question about Federal involvement, because my reporting, or reporting at Revolver News, is largely responsible for changing the national conversation in that direction.
01:42:50.000And notice they first threatened to sue you.
01:44:11.000Here's a guy, you saw that, that was only part of the clip, there's much longer clips about Ray Epps, but here's a guy who's the only guy caught on camera as early as January 5th, repeatedly calling for people to go into the Capitol, and prefacing his seemingly rehearsed remarks in each case, saying, I'm probably going to go to jail for this, I'm probably going to get arrested for this, you need to go into the Capitol.
01:44:35.000The next day, he flew across the whole country, presumably to go hear Trump's speech.
01:44:52.000Then amazingly, he's pre-positioned right at that initial decisive breach point on the west perimeter of the Capitol, and he's whispering into somebody's ear just seconds before the bike racks are broken through.
01:45:07.000He texts his nephew, I orchestrated it.
01:45:10.000On paper, think about it, he's like a 6'3", former Marine, who is wearing camo gear and a Trump hat, and he just happens to have had a leadership position in the Oath Keepers.
01:45:21.000The most demonized and heavily prosecuted... He used to, right?
01:45:35.000However, initially, his behavior was considered to be so egregious he was one of the first 20 people added to the FBI's most wanted list about January 6.
01:45:45.000He was prominently featured in the New York Times' ominously titled Day of Rage.
01:45:51.000Of all the clips the New York Times could have found and chosen, they chose Ray Epps to represent their thesis that this was a pre-planned insurrection to storm the Capitol.
01:46:03.000And then, when the discussion of federal involvement came in to be, one of our major pieces at Revolver News, literally the next day is when the FBI quietly removed him from their list.
01:46:15.000And all of a sudden he went from FBI's most wanted and featured in the New York Times
01:46:20.000is day of rage to New York Times does a fully dedicated puff piece on him.
01:46:25.00060 minutes does a sympathy segment on him.
01:46:29.000He's the only January 6th participant that Adam Kinzinger, who's never met a Trump supporter,
01:46:34.000he doesn't want to see rotting in jail for 50 years, that Adam Kinzinger will defend
01:46:39.000more aggressively than Epps' own lawyers.
01:46:48.000The government finally says, okay, we're going to hit you with a wrist-slap misdemeanor, as though people are so simple-minded to think, well, if the argument hasn't been indicted, therefore he's a fed, if we indict him now, even if it's a misdemeanor, even three years after, no matter what the circumstances, this constitutes a refutation and totally wipes away the mountains of suspicious evidence surrounding the character of Ray Epps.
01:48:03.000So, the people who were charged with anything but misdemeanors were people who used violence and people who went into the House chamber, where the joint session was, and the people who were involved in a seditious conspiracy.
01:49:42.000He's telling people in advance of the speech we need to go to the Capitol because somehow he got it in his mind that everything would end up at the Capitol.
01:49:48.000I'm pretty sure he's doing it in his, as Trump is making the speech, not before the speech has begun.
01:49:58.000Then you can go back and watch it on your- the Revolver story's up there.
01:50:01.000For every single thing that you assert about him, that he's in video whispering into a guy's ear, you say it in the rest of your article, all he's doing on the day of, when the protesting's getting violent, is going up and down telling people, don't fight with the cops.
01:50:14.000That's what he's saying the entire time.
01:50:15.000The idea that he said that the entire day, but the one guy whose ear that he whispered into, that unfortunately we don't have, you know, audio capture of, that he and Sam Searle testified to, is he said, hey, the cops are on our side or the cops aren't enemies. They
01:50:55.000Like, all the information is out there.
01:50:57.000He said that after his video was identified, and people on X started to identify him, and then because all of his online stuff is incredibly easy to find, he started to get phone calls, he started to get harassed, he started to get threats, so he called the FBI as soon as this was brought to his attention, and he told the FBI, hey, this was me, and here I am, and this is what's happening, and the FBI took him off the list.
01:51:54.000I can tell you why it's not true, okay?
01:51:57.000Because what you did, because I read your article, is you looked at two archived versions of the website and you didn't have a 12-month archive.
01:52:03.000For some reason, you assumed that the recent snapshot that you took at 2021, you think that that was the first time the page has been changed.
01:52:10.000That was just the first time the page has been archived.
01:52:12.000I don't think the FBI has made a statement on it, but what What Epps testified to was that he either saw a video of himself or a friend saw a video of himself or a friend saw him on the list and then people were making videos and then he called the FBI and he said, hey, I need to talk to you and this is what's going on.
01:52:25.000If he was a Fed, why would they remove him from the list when everybody's clearly looking at the list?
01:52:28.000He was one of the only people removed.
01:52:30.000Why would senators be defending him so vigilantly?
01:53:01.000I never said he's urging people to violence.
01:53:03.000He was absolutely a provocateur and his mission as stated and as implemented and as orchestrated by his own Verbatim text was he wanted people to go into the Capitol Peacefully.
01:53:19.000That might be the case, and if that's all you're saying... It's not all!
01:53:25.000Nobody here is saying that he didn't say that and he didn't want people to do that, but the claim is that there's some sort of... That's illegal!
01:53:34.000Do you think anybody here cares if he gets charged for that crime?
01:53:36.000The issue is you're saying that he was doing it under the direction of a federal agency.
01:53:40.000Yeah, are you saying that- The 6'3 guy that looks like he's dying of type 2 diabetes and arthritis is somehow some intimidating marine captain that's sending people into the capital.
01:53:47.000That was your claim that you've provided zero evidence for, and you don't in either of the articles that you write about him.
01:54:09.000Well, I just, I mean, I only heard the last four minutes of the conversation, but I'm still always amazed by, I really don't understand the argument, because the FBI in the U.S.
01:54:19.000security state before January 6th was saying that they regard the greatest threat to national security not as being ISIS or al-Qaeda or Hamas or Hezbollah or China or any other foreign threat, they regard the greatest threat as being right-wing domestic extremists, in whom that was included on many lists, the Oath Keepers, the Three Percenters, and all of the people in the groups that they said orchestrated January 6th.
01:54:48.000Is the argument that you think that the FBI was not monitoring and infiltrating those groups?
01:54:54.000Because there's actually a ton of evidence that the FBI had their hooks in all three of those
01:54:59.000groups. And not only had their hooks in them, but on January 6th had informants on the ground who
01:55:04.000were pretending to be Trump supporters who were talking in real time to the FBI about everything
01:55:09.000that was happening. So I just want to understand what the claim is.
01:55:12.000The claim that the FBI was not involved in the groups that organized January 6th and didn't have informants with them that day?
01:55:20.000It came out that the vice president of the Oath Keepers was an FBI informant.
01:55:26.000The Proud Boys had at least three and as many as eight and the New York Times itself reported that there were FBI informants and the Proud Boys who were inside the
01:55:36.000Capitol texting their handlers as the event unfolded. So they recorded the garage,
01:55:43.000they recorded the garage meeting the day before and the Fed said to the court
01:55:46.000nothing was said violent or no planning. Yeah.
01:55:51.000So you're saying that Ray Epps was actually a federal agent who was indicted, who pled guilty, and is likely going to get six months in prison?
01:56:18.000The context in the immediate aftermath of January 6th, by the words of Steve Sherwin, who was in charge of the prosecution, their posture was one of quote-unquote shock and awe.
01:56:33.000Now again, think about central casting.
01:56:36.000On paper, Ray Epps, he's the 6'3", former Marine in camouflage gear with a Trump hat, the only guy caught on video as early as the 5th telling people to go into the Capitol, who's there on the 6th.
01:56:49.000Directing people of the Capitol, who's right there pre-positioned at that initial breach phase.
01:56:55.000and this and and and and helping rams on exactly and
01:56:59.000he happens to be a former head of the oath keepers and you're not telling us bizarre wait a second
01:57:05.000you're not telling me it's at least a little bit bizarre that of all january six participants
01:57:10.000he's the only one who gets a new york times puff piece he's the only one who gets a sixty six uh... sixty minutes
01:57:16.000sympathy segment he's the only one that adam kinsinger
01:57:19.000will defend so you say that new york times now working with the feds working
01:57:23.000with the right outside of the car but i guess no it has a very nice and i think
01:57:27.000we can why do you think they are all those articles one of the center of the
01:57:30.000remedies and i read it because i was also going back on a little white white
01:57:34.000iraqis articles when she said apart when it was i want to address your question
01:57:37.000directly you're saying if you're an asset by the way i'm not
01:57:41.000Definitive in the sense that, oh, I don't think he was working directly for the FBI.
01:57:45.000I don't even know if he was directly working for the federal government.
01:58:12.000The criminal complaint acknowledges that he engaged in quote-unquote felonious behavior, but among the mitigating factors that they cite is, oh, this poor guy was a victim of all these conspiracy theories.
01:58:33.000Why were people writing I want to just quickly answer the question about, your question basically, if he was an asset, why did they go after their own asset?
01:58:45.000Why would they indict their own asset?
01:58:48.000In fact, that's almost the norm, that ultimately when the assets... In the mafia, when they have undercover people, they'll indict them just as a cover.
01:58:54.000When the assets become liabilities, they indict them.
01:58:58.000In fact, we don't have to go too far into the past to get a case of that.
01:59:02.000There is the Michigan Fednapping case.
02:06:41.000He was not charged with obstruction of an official proceeding, which would have been a very easy charge and a fairly typical felony charge given to us.
02:06:49.000So wait, wait, let me answer this comprehensively.
02:06:52.000So first of all, It's extremely strange, given how conspicuous and egregious and concentrated his behavior was, that he somehow was able to avoid the obstruction of official proceeding charge, number one.
02:07:09.000Number two, there are even more serious charges they could have given him.
02:07:13.000In fact, in the series of videos that we put out, there's one specific exchange he had with another guy.
02:07:19.000He said, when we go in, Leave this here.
02:09:46.000If you have evidence that you're innocent, fight!
02:09:48.000But there was no evidence because he broke the agreement that he signed and then he pled guilty and said, I broke the agreement that I signed and agreed to the sentence that the sentencing guy got.
02:09:57.000And Trump should be able to run for office.
02:09:58.000Also, this entire argument has been you, again, arguing for an insurrection, for a rebellion.
02:10:03.000All we have, everything we have over here is actual testimony under oath, actual judicial
02:10:07.000rulings, actual rulings by judges, actual rulings by Supreme Court.
02:10:11.000I have to go to finish, I have to go to finish, I gotta go to finish.
02:10:16.000We can provide these arguments, we can provide the evidence, we can provide the testimony,
02:10:19.000and all you do is go, "Oh, well I don't trust the courts.
02:10:21.000Oh, well I don't trust statements made under oath.
02:10:23.000Oh, well, oh, hasn't the FBI done this in the past?"
02:10:25.000You can skirt by providing hard evidence... I gotta be able to finish one thing.
02:10:31.000You can skirt by on providing any hard evidence for literally a single claim that you've made today.
02:10:36.000There hasn't been any evidence provided to support Any of the claims made today, and you are hand-brushing away every single other claim that's made by people that were loyal to Trump, by people that Trump trusted over and over and over again, and at the end of the day, like, what could you possibly be advocating for besides an insurrection?
02:12:03.000No, you guys were the ones cheering on the other side of that.
02:12:06.000You guys were cheering for it the entire time.
02:12:08.000Wait, I want to know, what do we do if we don't trust the courts?
02:12:11.000We don't trust the courts, we don't trust the president, we don't trust- Hey, does Julian Assange deserve to be in prison?
02:12:15.000I'm not here to talk about Julian Assange or the rest of your friends, okay?
02:12:18.000Tell me, what do we do if we don't trust him?
02:12:20.000There's a reason he won't answer the question.
02:12:21.000The reason why is because he answered rebellion and insurrection.
02:12:23.000We are going to get back to- I talked about Owen, who was there peacefully and said, don't go in, and he said, you're defending insurrection.
02:12:43.000Now, I want to get back to Darren, because there was a question that was, uh, we took a tangent, and also, Glenn, I think you look like you're about to say something, so if you wanted to speak first.
02:12:51.000Yeah, but, but, Darren, go ahead first on, on, just to close the re-eps thing, but I do want to say something as well about what I've been hearing.
02:13:00.000What charges do you think he should have gotten?
02:13:01.000Oh, I think he could and should have gotten far more serious charges.
02:13:05.000The first example is the easiest and most readily available obstruction of official proceeding, which is basically the standard charge for people who have done far less egregious things.
02:13:15.000No, but it really isn't, though, because the only people in charge with that, I believe, are the people who went into the House chamber.
02:13:26.000And second of all, that's not an ironclad law pertaining to the application of that charge.
02:13:34.000Secondly, there's a far more serious conspiracy charge that the government had available to them if we use the standards that they've applied in similar January 6th cases.
02:13:56.000Stuart Rhodes literally said that if Trump doesn't impose the Insurrection Act that we need an insurrection and he said storm the Capitol and he went into the Capitol and he hurt police officers.
02:14:09.000And you call for people to- Joe Biggs said- Joe Biggs went into the Capitol.
02:15:15.000So, I mean, if you put that together with the planning, him and Biggs were planning on two different ends, one Oath Keepers, one Travelers.
02:15:23.000Well, if you look at the Telegram messages.
02:15:25.000An undercover agent recorded the conversation in the garage.
02:15:28.000But have you looked at the Telegram messages where they're basically instructing people where to go and where they're at and that saying, hey, we stormed the Capitol, we took the Capitol.
02:15:38.000Yeah, there's no doubt there was LARPing without Trump's directives of some people talking about that.
02:15:44.000Wait, why don't we trust their messages, but we do trust Ray Epps bragging to his nephew that he orchestrated it?
02:15:49.000No, I just said they were talking about it.
02:15:54.000Let's let Glenn finish this one off, because then I have another question for you guys.
02:15:57.000Yeah, the whole thing, like, listening to them.
02:16:00.000Honestly, it's like listening, I don't mean to be insulting, I'm just saying this, you know, it's what it sounds like, like, 7th graders who are in civics class and have this understanding of how the US government works, like, oh, the FBI investigate, and they discover crimes, and then they go to the courts, and the courts are very honest, and the courts are apolitical, and the courts make rulings, Everything that has happened in January 6th, and you can even look at the people they picked and choose who to expand the law, the people who ended up getting prosecuted on felony counts even though they were non-violent had these incredibly novel interpretations of law that were used against them to turn non-violent demonstration and non-violent political protest into felony by taking this
02:16:39.000post Enron law and giving it a stretched meeting that it never had before.
02:16:42.000And the reason so many of them plead guilty is because they know that if they
02:16:45.000go into court, they're going to have rulings against them.
02:16:48.000Because a lot of these judges, especially in Washington, are not only Democratic Party judges, but the entire system
02:16:53.000is furious to watch people go and put their feet up on Nancy Pelosi's desk.
02:16:58.000So the entire system decided that this has to be punished regardless of
02:17:03.000You had the FBI with their hooks inside all of these groups.
02:17:07.000But I do understand that if you believe in this story of American propaganda,
02:17:10.000that the FBI is these upstanding law enforcement people and they don't do that, and then the courts go and make rulings.
02:17:15.000Then you're going to end up with this image of what the three of them have,
02:17:19.000which is this idea that this was one of the worst attacks in American history.
02:17:22.000The courts have ruled everything the government did in this case is consistent with their long-standing view before January 6th, that these groups are criminal groups.
02:17:33.000Trump's movement is a threat to the United States, and the entire part of January 6th was designed to define them as an insurrectionary movement so that they could criminalize them, which is exactly what they're doing.
02:18:15.000You understand that usually what happens in the United States with non-violent protesters or even with violent protesters is they don't get charged with anything.
02:18:24.000A tiny percentage of people who use violence throughout all of the Black Lives Matter protests ended up in jail because the ideology in which they were protesting was one that was considered positive and friendly.
02:18:45.000And that was why the entire law enforcement mechanisms were distorted.
02:18:54.000It's not the same to compare Black Lives Matter protestors and protestors who entered the Capitol building during the certification of the election.
02:19:03.000Those are not... Democrats have bombed the U.S.
02:20:06.000So Alex, what if instead of the Capitol is the White House, and there's thousands of people at the White House fence, and they push through the fence, do you think those people deserve more of a criminal penalty than people that were rioting in, I don't know, LA?
02:20:23.000No, I mean, if it turns out they were under the directive of a foreign power... No, no, it was just a bunch of Americans.
02:21:10.000You know what I saw was the police, after a little bit of a fight, opened the doors and waved people in, and a bunch of... They didn't wave people in.
02:22:17.000A lot of those innocent people that just walked to the Capitol have been sent to prison.
02:22:20.000All right, we're going to take a, well actually we're not going to be taking a break, you may be, but I want to ask you guys, we're talking about these people in prison, these prison sentences, so we're going to, I want to talk to you briefly about if you think these prison sentences that some of these people are getting are justified or not, and then we're going to be taking questions from the audience from Zero Hedge Premium, so if you haven't signed up at zerohedge.com, sign up for the premium service, and you may be able to get a question before we wrap.
02:23:13.000The reason it's being amplified in this fashion is to justify the further weaponization of the national security apparatus against Trump supporters and to suppress the energies associated with Trump's movement.
02:23:25.000Therefore, you have these crazy sentencing.
02:23:29.000Even those top sentences for the Proud Boys and Oath Keepers, 20 years, 18 years.
02:23:35.000It's simply insane when you think about, you know, again, all of it has to be comparative.
02:23:41.000Are people guilty of murder who get less prison time?
02:23:45.000And the self-described, self-professed posture of the DOJ in the immediate aftermath of January 6th is one of shock and awe, which ominously, but kind of unwittingly accurately, Um, recalls the Iraq war and the war on terror.
02:24:06.000It's very fitting that the Department of Homeland Security is the tip of the spear when it comes to this repurposing of the national security apparatus.
02:24:15.000It was the Department of Homeland Security that said white supremacy is the number one national security threat and by white supremacy they mean Trump.
02:24:23.000All of these people have also said January 6th was a white supremacist Insurrection.
02:24:30.000Hillary Clinton has said that MAGA is a white supremacist slogan.
02:24:33.000So that helps to contextualize and clarify what they mean when they say white supremacy is the number one national security threat.
02:24:43.000And so basically these people, even the people who committed illegal acts, are in effect political prisoners because of the political context.
02:24:53.000of these prosecutions which are vastly overblown and could only make sense within this political context of the weaponization not only of the national security state but unfortunately now also the legal apparatus.
02:25:07.000Let's go on the line with Glenn again and then all you guys but I just want to say something.
02:25:13.000In June of 2021 Biden put out a national security memorandum which you just mentioned saying Right-wing extremism is the number one threat.
02:25:22.000Then he defined that as white supremacism and then said, questioning open borders, questioning elections, questioning lockdowns, questioning four shots.
02:27:32.000And the reason they believe it is because they don't know the history of the war on terror.
02:27:36.000They don't know the history of the Cold War.
02:27:38.000They don't know what the CIA and the FBI and the U.S.
02:27:40.000security state have been constructed to do and the role that they played in our domestic politics.
02:27:45.000Every single time that there's some new crisis, the CIA, the FBI, the permanent power faction in Washington, and it's not like some crazy conspiracy theory Dwight Eisenhower warned a bit on his way out of the presidency in 1961 when he called it the military-industrial complex because he had seen how it was growing beyond all democratic accountability.
02:28:04.000Every time what they need to do is convince somebody to be scared of something, to be scared of communism, to be scared of terrorism, to be scared of domestic terrorism, and they convince people that some minor event, relatively speaking, in the history of the threats to our country, like the 9-11 attack, which is a terrible thing, but they exaggerated wildly the threat of foreign terrorism to basically institute the Patriot Act and warrantless eavesdropping and
02:28:28.000all the things that turned our country more authoritarian.
02:28:31.000They were announcing that before 9/11, they used 9/11 to do it.
02:28:34.000They were announcing before January 6th that they wanted to
02:28:37.000turn right wing extremists into domestic terrorists.
02:28:40.000And they used January 6th and this extremely inflated narrative
02:28:45.000It was a riot of out of control people, a few hundred of them,
02:28:49.000that they turned into an insurrection, that they're now
02:28:52.000weaponizing the justice system and they're creating oppression.
02:28:56.000where they're now taking a non-violent protest.
02:29:00.000Remember, most of the people charged in January 6th are charged with non-violent protests, and they've made it now so that they can charge those people with felonies, and put them in prison for years.
02:29:09.000That was the Q Shaman, four years in prison for a non-violent protest.
02:29:13.000That's the precedent that you're endorsing with this narrative.
02:29:16.000So, so, so Jacob Chansley got four years, but he served, I think, a year and a half.
02:29:37.000It was a Trump-appointed judge, Timothy Kelly.
02:29:40.000Now, if you look at the worst convictions, the ones that received the largest sentences, 80% of them were actually under the sentencing guidelines.
02:29:55.000These people didn't receive sentences that were any more harsh than anybody else in other crimes.
02:30:03.000And these were people sentenced from a Trump judge, a Trump appointed judge.
02:30:09.000So you're all saying that that all the courts are rigged against conservatives or or Trump supporters.
02:31:21.000As I said over here, like most of the sentences have been within sentencing guidelines.
02:31:24.000A lot of these have been done with a Trump appointed judge.
02:31:27.000The idea that these charges are novel, that people don't face prosecution like this, there's some element of truth to that, but this is also a novel situation.
02:31:34.000We have never had a president in the United States try to resist the peaceful transfer of power like this.
02:31:40.000And you can keep screaming about Hillary Clinton, you can keep screaming about BLM all you want and talk about the blown-up fire stations and the congressional halls, the reality is that none of those situations were like this one.
02:31:49.000If you want to keep appealing to those and saying those people should have been charged with crimes, we agree they should have been charged with crimes.
02:31:53.000even do the whataboutism, you have to already concede that you are wrong on all of the merits
02:31:57.000about the current people you're talking about. Every single time we talk about Donald Trump,
02:32:01.000you go, "Well, what about when Hillary Clinton or Biden did it?" Oh, okay, then you admit
02:32:03.000that Trump did? Because if you want to admit that Trump is guilty of every single thing
02:32:07.000that we've been accusing him of, which is what you're doing when you go, "What about
02:32:09.000the other guy?" Because it seems like you're just trying to appeal to hypocrisy at that
02:32:12.000point rather than the fact of the matter, then do that. Say, "Yeah, Trump did try to
02:32:15.000cite an insurrection. Yeah, Trump did fail. Yeah, it was a riot. I don't know why you
02:32:47.000Okay, so let me just add some context here.
02:32:49.000Well, they had three trials in Michigan, and one of them, it was a mistrial, and they let most of them off, and the other, they finally got a few convicted.
02:32:56.000It came out in court that the feds went and found a bunch of basically homeless potheads, and just like Glenn was saying, the New York Times article, but they were more accurate, 97% of Islamic plots were hatched by the FBI.
02:33:08.000including the first World Trade Center bombing and they admit all that and I've
02:33:12.000interviewed the people involved, Ahmad Salam, all of them that knew they were into the
02:33:14.000bombing he came and said why have I cooked a real bomb and they let it go
02:33:17.000forward. With Whitmer the same team involved in January 6 from the FBI went
02:33:22.000and set these people up and that came out of the mainstream news.
02:33:26.000So we know they, this isn't, you guys were saying, we don't want to go back to 10 years ago, you know, I've sat there for six, seven minutes, you know, out there smoking a cigarette while you're just going on and on and acting like you're being censored.
02:33:37.000You're like, there's no example recently of them doing something corrupt or bad.
02:34:05.000The parallels to January 6th are striking.
02:34:09.000Almost half of the so-called plotters turned out to be either informants or federal agents.
02:34:15.000One of those federal agents had to recuse himself from the trial because he beat his wife on the way home from a swingers party.
02:34:23.000The second one had to recuse himself because he was moonlighting in his private security firm and leaking details of investigations in which he was involved.
02:34:32.000But in every single, it wasn't just that there were informants.
02:34:35.000Every active step instrumental to this so-called plot was undertaken by one of the informants or one of the agents.
02:34:43.000One of the informants, as I mentioned him, Steve Robson, in the context of does the government ever burn its own informants?
02:36:17.000The idea, again, that for the FBI to be infiltrating these groups is a conspiracy theory, again, requires an understanding of the FBI that's childlike.
02:36:27.000And what Destiny was saying before is, oh, we're just using what they've done in the past and therefore concluding they must be doing that in the future.
02:36:33.000He just ignored all the evidence we've been presenting for the last two hours, including the fact that the FBI, by their own admission, had informants in all three of the leading groups that organized January 6th and were talking to informants on the ground at the Capitol.
02:36:53.000As far as January 6th defendants are concerned, it is true that they're getting sentences similar to what people get when they're charged with felonies.
02:37:02.000The point is that it is insane that non-violent protesters are being charged with felonies in the United States.
02:37:10.000And pointing to Black Lives Matter is not to say Oh yeah, that's whataboutism, so we're admitting that this was an insurrection, and that is true.
02:37:18.000The point is that what the government is doing, if you look at the disparate treatment between the two, is picking and choosing which movement they like ideologically and politically, and which they don't, and punishing much more severely the one that they don't, which is what January 6th is about.
02:37:35.000Going into the Capitol building with weapons saying, hang Mike Pence, hang Mike Pence.
02:37:40.000No, that's not a violent crime, but are you saying that doesn't warrant a felony conviction?
02:38:03.000They created an interpretation of the law that was enacted after Enron that was designed to criminalize accountants from obstructing fraud at the corporate level.
02:38:12.000Every single- It's the meaning of it to mean that if it's a non-violent protest, any non-violent protest now at the Capitol- No, no, no.
02:38:57.000Let's talk about Thomas Caldwell for a minute.
02:39:07.000To Glenn's point, keep in mind that when you're saying that BLM wasn't treated the same because of the government, you're not just alleging the federal government at that point, you're alleging every single state government and city municipality that's in charge of arresting people are all on the same page.
02:39:23.000Wait, the feds are in charge of prosecuting everybody in every state?
02:39:26.000Thomas Caldwell was part of the seditious conspiracy.
02:39:30.000He was part of the conspiracy by the Oath Keepers.
02:39:32.000That's why he got charged with a felony.
02:39:35.000When Black Lives Matter happened, every single blue state mayor and every single blue state governor waited on the side of the writers because they were petrified of being demonized as being racist if they didn't support everything the Black Lives Matter movement did.
02:39:49.000So yes, the Black Lives Matter movement had corporations.
02:40:59.000We're forgetting one thing and that is that you can commit a crime, you can commit a felony and it doesn't have to be violent.
02:41:06.000There's plenty of felonies on the books that aren't violent including breaking into a federal building Breaking through police lines and going into the Senate chamber as Congress people are trying to certify an election.
02:41:23.000How is that going over your head, Glenn?
02:41:33.000And all I'm telling you is, is this This Biden announcement that currently the number one threat is the Trump supporters and Trump must be taken off the ballot.
02:41:46.000You can punt to the Supreme Court, but they're literally trying to preclude Americans from voting for who they want.
02:41:51.000That's the election theft and our face.
02:41:54.000Why do we have to keep going back to that?
02:41:56.000That's the third time that question was asked and unanswered.
02:42:06.000Well, I don't need to get into that so extensively.
02:42:10.000I was just saying, here is somebody who is not violent, who did not go into the Capitol, who was charged with Construction of an official proceedings.
02:42:32.000We had a million plus people there, a few hundred not in fights with the cops, and you act like it's the biggest thing since... It's a pretty big deal.
02:42:39.000That's when a president tries to overturn a legitimate election.
02:42:44.000You had all your investigations and you lost every single one.
02:42:47.000When you lose in court, you go to the next day.
02:42:53.000Remember in 2016 when all the conservatives said, well you know what, if we would have lost the election, you know what we would have done the next day?
02:43:10.000My dream is that Ed and Brian and Destiny have to actually live through a real coup so that they can then come back to the set and be like, oh my god, you know what?
02:43:19.000I'm so sorry for saying that what happened in the Capitol for three hours against the most militarized and powerful government to ever exist in human history got anywhere near a coup or an insurrection.
02:43:45.000Because usually it's helicopters taking over media, killing the opposition, troops, and then you're claiming women with American flags and being waved in by police as a coup.
02:43:55.000So define to me, all of you first, and then Glenn, and then the professor, what is a coup?
02:44:02.000Since this was the most devastating evil coup ever.
02:44:04.000Coup is trying to enact a scheme to try to circumvent the peaceful transfer of power.
02:45:06.000I know, Destiny is now the incredible giant of journalism and the constitutional scholar I used to be, as Destiny said.
02:45:11.000But anyway, a coup is generally when people in power or people who are trying to get into power marshal the force of the armed factions of that country and use it to eliminate the legal process and take over.
02:45:23.000So for example, if Trump had called in the military on his side on January 6th, or he had gotten the military to block people from trying to remove him from office on January 20th, that is always what we say is a coup.
02:45:34.000Nothing that looks like what happened on January 6th.
02:45:36.000The other thing I just want to correct, Destiny seems to have this, like, debate me sort of thing point that he thinks he keeps making that's so smart, which is when you say... Why did he waste so much time on catty comments?
02:45:45.000There must be something better for him to say.
02:45:47.000You're the one that does throw in lines.
02:45:48.000There must be something better for him to say.
02:46:56.000If somebody says, I think that Trump engaged in a coup... One of the ways that you show that it's not a coup is by saying that the things that you like that are done, that are far more insurrectionary, are things you won't call an insurrection because those No, Glenn, I'm sorry.
02:47:10.000No, Glenn, that's called an appeal to hypocrisy.
02:47:12.000The way that you argue against something being a coup... Why has Trump not been charged with it?
02:47:18.000Why have they not charged Trump with insurrection?
02:47:21.000You just say he... Jack Smith already said why.
02:47:23.000Go read some of his documents if you haven't already.
02:47:24.000It's like the main Secretary of State.
02:47:28.000If you don't think it's a coup, then we agree on what the definition of a coup is.
02:47:31.000If we don't agree on the definition of a coup, which you said it requires military presence, I don't know if any of you have necessarily said...
02:47:36.000Alright, well, it's not going to get resolved tonight, although we have tried to resolve it.
02:47:40.000We're not shutting down, we're just moving to the next phase of the organization.
02:48:33.000These are from ZeroHedge.com from some of the premium users of the website have sent in some of the questions.
02:48:37.000This one's actually a question for what they call the Blue Team, which right now is going to be the three guys, Ed, Brian, and Stephen.
02:48:43.000The question is, The New York Times acknowledged that there were FBI informants in the Capitol on January 6th, and then they give a link to the New York Times article.
02:48:51.000Given the agency's history of entrapment, is it a stretch that some agents may have provoked the riot?
02:48:57.000And then there's a follow-up question.
02:48:59.000Why was law enforcement so ill-prepared for the insurrection, in quotes, despite the presence of informants?
02:49:05.000So the first question, first part of the question is, is it a stretch that some agents may have provoked the riot?
02:49:11.000So informants are something the FBI has been using for years, decades.
02:50:11.000If Ray Epps set them up, why isn't a single other person there attested to that?
02:50:16.000If he whispered into people's ears, if he was leading breach teams, why didn't any of the arrested people, why didn't a single person come out?
02:50:22.000I'm asking why, I'm asking this though, the next reasonable question.
02:50:24.000Why hasn't a single person come out to testify?
02:50:50.000Why doesn't anybody else say, that was my conductor?
02:50:53.000You know, the follow-up part of this question, why was law, I think law enforcement was so ill-prepared for the insurrection, again in quotes, despite the presence of informants.
02:51:01.000This is from Space Worm, just so you know, Space Worm from Zero Edge.
02:51:04.000Well, half of them were sent away for crowd control.
02:51:06.000I think the ill-preparedness came because Trump's deployment of the National Guard in the past, especially in D.C., had caused a lot of people to be uncomfortable with National Guard being present in the Capitol when the certification of vote was happening.
02:51:17.000So, as they were having conversations prior to establishing security, I think they took a lot of extraordinary bureaucratic measures to make it so that, I think that day, if the National Guard was going to be deployed, it either had to be, I think, Miller or Walker.
02:51:29.000I think one of those two had to be the direct authorization.
02:52:35.000So here's the thing. - We're recording.
02:52:36.000340 people were authorized to be there, but in order to actually call them, it was an extraordinary process.
02:52:42.000When you read the J6 committee in the Situation Room and Sund and everybody else complaining, where's the National Guard, where's the National Guard?
02:52:47.000There was a whole bunch of stupid bureaucratic red tape and optics concerns that people had to cut through to get them there.
02:52:51.000So you're claiming that this is staged?
02:52:52.000story and like the 15 to 20 people. One hour ago he said Trump number one national guard.
02:52:57.000Now Trump wanted it but he didn't get it for a good reason.
02:53:52.000I'm explaining that the public's been lied to so much, there's a major loss in confidence, where people then don't believe anything they're told, and that's dangerous.
02:54:23.000Let Alex finish the short question and then we're going to go back to the user's question.
02:54:28.000Madeline Albright told Leslie Stahl of 60 Minutes, I ordered 500,000 children killed because I thought it was a good thing to do, I'd do it again.
02:54:37.000I questioned Jussie Smollett, I questioned W.E.B.
02:54:40.000Nixon in Iraq, I questioned everything, and I'm proud of everything I've done, and all that stuff is PR firm garbage.
02:54:46.000When I talk about the general public, Because the media lies about almost everything, loses trust in anything, that creates a general form of psychosis, and it's very dangerous.
02:54:58.000I talk about that every day on my show.
02:54:59.000And Joe Rogan just last week said, you know, Alex Jones isn't totally right, but he means to be right.
02:57:51.000And to try and make it about Alex when there are six people here presenting all kinds of
02:57:57.000evidence that you're not equipped to deal with, I think it's just a pathetic way to
02:58:02.000And the last thing I want to say is, it's really giving like a kind of amazingly vivid mindset into the minds of Trump-era liberals who have really come to see The US security state and the courts and prosecutors as their political allies in their war that they're waging against people who disagree with them.
02:58:19.000And they have this like very romanticized view of what the FBI is, what the DOJ is, how the court systems work, how the federal government works.
02:58:27.000And all of this reveals this so well because what's happening here is so manifest, which is that all of these agencies are being abused because the Trump movement is considered the gravest threat to establishment power in this country, which is why the bipartisan establishment is against it.
02:58:42.000To try and make this about Alex and Sandy Hook is a really pathetic way to end the debate.
02:58:46.000I think you guys have done a good job defending your views.
03:00:43.000I wanted to answer the user's question about the lack of preparation.
03:00:47.000Because it involves a lot more than the question of the National Guard.
03:00:51.000For additional context, There's the Norfolk memo coming out of the Norfolk office of the FBI.
03:00:59.000Extensively cataloging threats to the Capitol including maps of tunnels, all kinds of indications that there was going to be a major event at the Capitol on that day.
03:01:12.000There was extensive government infiltration of every single militia group imputed to January 6th.
03:01:34.000We know the VP of the Oath Keepers was an FBI informant.
03:01:39.000We know there are at least eight other informants in the Proud Boys, including informants who are texting their handlers simultaneously as they were in the Capitol and as the events unfolded.
03:01:51.000We know of the Oath Keeper Jeremy Brown.
03:01:54.000Who has been attacked and persecuted by the government.
03:01:57.000Because when he was approached by JTTF agents in December of 2020 to recruit him as an informant, he recorded the exchange and the encounter and put it out there on the internet.
03:02:12.000The JTTF agents said, there's something going to happen in January.
03:02:16.000We want you to be an informant for us.
03:02:18.000We know that there are several influencers, including Milo, Who parlored, or whatever the tweet version is for parlor, put out a message on January 5th saying, I was just approached by federal agents, whatever they have planned on the 6th is huge, don't go there.
03:02:39.000Oh yeah, and there was Donnell Harvin, he was the head of the Homeland Security Office for the DC Fusion Center.
03:02:46.000His predictions were remarkably specific and accurate.
03:02:50.000His office came up with the idea that we need to have body bags.
03:02:56.000We need to focus on the Capitol at 1 o'clock.
03:03:00.000Specifically, we need to be concerned with explosives planted on side streets that could serve a diversionary effect.
03:03:08.000Therefore, allowing for an attack on the Capitol.
03:03:11.000These are just some of the highlights of examples of the government being in a position to know in advance what was going on.
03:03:19.000And it wasn't just that there was an ordinary level of security at the Capitol, which is inconceivable when you think of the fact that there was a major proceeding there, that Trump was there giving his speech.
03:03:29.000Ordinarily, there would be threat assessments, which there weren't.
03:03:33.000It's not just that there was ordinary level of security.
03:03:36.000There is a uniquely absent security on that day, uniquely poor security on a day with a major certification proceeding, on a day in which President Trump was there to give a major speech on a very controversial question directly pertinent to that proceeding.
03:03:53.000So Darren, there's 1,250 people who were indicted thus far.
03:03:58.000How many of them brought up as evidence in court that they were enticed or led into the building or led to do crimes by federal agents?
03:04:21.000As you can imagine, the judicial process is very aggressive in pushing against any types of entrapment defenses.
03:04:30.000And many defense lawyers, in some cases, reasonably so, want to dissuade their clients from entrapment type defenses because their goal is not to uncover the truth about entrapment.
03:04:41.000Their goal is to do the best for their clients in those specific cases.
03:04:46.000So out of 1,250 cases, not one of those defenses were actually pushed forward by any of those defendants?
03:04:55.000There are some, but not as many as you would think, but not because this isn't relevant to the truth, but because if you're a lawyer, even a good faith lawyer, you are Uh, required to give advice to your client that's not, oh, what's most likely to uncover the full truth about the broad event of January 6th, but what's most likely to keep my client out of jail or to minimize the time that my client ends in jail.
03:05:22.000I would think that evidence that a federal agent led you to commit a crime or acted in a way that made you want to commit a crime would be pretty, pretty exculpatory evidence right there.
03:05:37.000And, like I said, there are people who are pursuing that.
03:05:40.000There's a significant backlash to that within the judicial system, so even given how much it's rigged now, it's additionally rigged when it comes to those specific types of defenses, because they're so subversive to the larger narrative that the government's trying to promote.
03:05:55.000Why wouldn't McCarthy put any Republicans on the J6 committee then, and investigate this?
03:06:00.000Well, McCarthy isn't exactly someone who's aggressively interested in pursuing the truth on this either.
03:06:05.000Okay, why not appoint like a special counsel or appoint something separate then from Congress?
03:06:11.000Well, I think that would be a fantastic idea, but again... Why didn't Trump do it?
03:06:15.000Trump's not in a position to do it right now.
03:06:17.000Yeah, but right after J6, before he gets kicked out, I want to point out... Well, I mean... Or why not in the days before, if he thinks that there's... I mean, there is not really a window of opportunity for that to happen.
03:07:33.000It's convenient for the regime not to have a legitimate and disinterested fact-finding commission to truly get to the bottom of the real questions that matter in relation to January 6th.
03:07:43.000But there is no disinterested fact-finding.
03:07:45.000You guys say Comey was biased, even though he was a lifelong Republican.
03:07:48.000You say Raffensperger was biased, even though he was a lifelong Republican.
03:07:51.000You guys say that Barr was biased, even though he's been a lifelong Trump supporter and a Republican.
03:07:56.000Yeah, you say Ray is biased, like every single person.
03:08:22.000Jim Jordan would be your example of an unbiased party.
03:08:25.000Jim Jordan was literally part of the investigation.
03:08:28.000I would say for there to be a legitimate committee, it would have to include people who are genuinely interested in pursuing not only the questions that Benny Thompson and the hyper-partisan Democrats wanted to find out, but people who are sympathetic to the other side who would be willing to pursue the questions that I've raised and have been raised That were not addressed at all in the committee, because all they were interested in was demonizing Trump and setting up a criminal proceeding for Trump.
03:08:57.000They weren't interested in getting to the bottom of the questions.
03:09:01.000What was going on with the level of federal infiltration?
03:09:04.000These questions are all asked as part of the 847 page report.
03:09:08.000I invite you to read it at some point.
03:09:09.000The reality is that McCarthy at any point could have put five Republicans that he chose on that committee.
03:09:15.000But because Nancy Pelosi said no to two of them, I think banks in Jordan that were actively being investigated or would have been the subjects of the J6 committee, he said no to anything, and now we get to say it was all a sham?
03:09:26.000Even though the majority of the people interviewed were Republicans?
03:09:28.000Even though, as was stated earlier, every single person near Trump... You're banking a lot on the Republican issue, but it shouldn't be a surprise to you, many Republicans, institutional apparatus of the party, It's not necessarily friendly to Trump.
03:09:43.000There are many Republicans that are hostile to Trump.
03:09:46.000If every single person in government, if every Republican, if every Democrat, if every judge, if every person in the United States that is in Trump's peripheral ends up hating Trump or not wanting to work with Trump, at what point do you say... Well, we're not saying every... At what point do you say... Christopher Wray is not... At what point do you just say... I've been gone for 10 minutes, let me respond, I'm listening.
03:10:07.000You can't just run back in here and cut me off, okay?
03:10:11.000Maybe Trump was actually genuinely a horrible person.
03:10:13.000Or maybe Trump actually genuinely didn't try to circumvent legal processes in order to coup the government.
03:10:18.000Or at least, uh, whatever you would call him asking Pence to unilaterally elect the government beforehand.
03:10:21.000Biden is trying to make it his number one campaign issue about January 6th.
03:10:25.000It should be the number one campaign issue.
03:10:27.000Wow, not inflation, not open borders, not human smuggling, not... Would a president try to circumvent the peaceful transfer of power for the first time in U.S.
03:10:51.000I don't know how the FBI judges domestic threat.
03:10:53.000It wouldn't surprise me if there's a lot of crossover with, like, white supremacy groups and them being, like, organized like a domestic threat, but my guess would be domestic threats in the U.S.
03:11:00.000is probably fairly low to the total security of the U.S., so I don't really care that much about it.
03:11:28.000Do we not count crime by black people anymore?
03:11:30.000Didn't we just get all of the crime against Asian people?
03:11:32.000No, the other guy says number one crime is white people.
03:11:34.000They say the number one crime is white people.
03:11:36.000They do it statistically by manipulating the numbers, yeah.
03:11:38.000I don't think the FBI is in charge of manipulating the numbers.
03:11:41.000The FBI is not involved in crime statistics?
03:11:42.000I didn't say involved in crime statistics.
03:11:44.000I'm pretty sure you can go to the federal... There's a name for the site that has like... I don't believe you're like hiding under a rock somewhere.
03:11:50.000You've got to know he gave a speech for an hour yesterday.
03:11:53.000Yeah, but you're saying the MAGA people are terrorists, they're about to take over.
03:12:12.000He's not allowed to be voted for because Section 348 of the 14th Amendment says that if you have been a prior vote taker and you have been engaged in rebellion and insurrection, you're not allowed to run for office again.
03:12:21.000We have to be clear about what's really happening.
03:12:23.000The standard Democrat voter, these people don't care about the so-called insurrection.
03:15:37.000Infowars.com, Ford's last show, now real Alex Jones back on, what was Twitter now, X. And we're here, we're fighting hard, we're promoting freedom, and we want everybody to tune in and see what we're doing.
03:16:41.000The first time I've ever moderated a debate with five people and then somebody coming in digital, which has its own... And if you want to see more of this...
03:16:49.000The great folks at Zero Hedge, like you said with their subscription service, there would be more of this.