Rebel News Podcast - December 31, 2019


Andrew Lawton on the challenges of journalism in 2019


Episode Stats

Length

30 minutes

Words per Minute

175.43822

Word Count

5,378

Sentence Count

186

Misogynist Sentences

1

Hate Speech Sentences

11


Summary

What's the state of freedom of the press and freedom of speech in Canada? A feature interview with Andrew Lawton on The Ezra Levant Show with Ezra Levant, featuring an exclusive interview with the host of the show, Ezra Levant's new podcast, What's the State of Freedom of the Press and Freedom of Speech in Canada.


Transcript

00:00:00.000 Tonight, what's the state of freedom of the press and freedom of speech in Canada?
00:00:19.180 A feature interview with our friend Andrew Lawton.
00:00:22.420 It's December 30th and this is the Ezra Levant Show.
00:00:25.620 Why should others go to jail when you're a biggest carbon consumer I know?
00:00:31.520 There's 8,500 customers here and you won't give them an answer.
00:00:35.600 The only thing I have to say to the government, the wire publisher, is because it's my bloody right to do so.
00:00:46.380 Good evening, Prime Minister. Andrew Lawton from True North.
00:00:49.240 This afternoon, a federal court judge ruled that I had a right to be here to cover this debate as a journalist,
00:00:54.900 despite opposition from your Attorney General.
00:00:58.080 This comes after two weeks of me being kicked out of or not allowed into your campaign rallies.
00:01:03.180 The Conservatives have criticized you for being not as advertised.
00:01:06.940 You've advertised yourself as a champion of a press freedom.
00:01:09.840 Will you take a stand right now, sir, as the leader of the Liberal Party
00:01:12.400 and allow me to cover your campaign like every other journalist?
00:01:15.180 We are a party and we are a country that respects journalistic rights
00:01:18.540 and respects the freedom of the press.
00:01:20.860 We will continue to.
00:01:21.840 So is that a yes, sir?
00:01:22.860 We are a party and a country that respects the hard work and the freedom of the press.
00:01:27.300 We will continue to.
00:01:28.060 Then what time is your plane leaving tomorrow, sir?
00:01:30.320 Well, that is a clip of our friend Andrew Lawton from True North
00:01:34.900 putting a question to Justin Trudeau
00:01:37.660 at the leaders' debates in the federal election in October.
00:01:41.600 Now, Andrew was not supposed to be there,
00:01:45.360 just like our rebel reporters,
00:01:47.140 Kian Bexte and David Menzies,
00:01:48.480 were not supposed to be there.
00:01:50.340 Because short days earlier, the Federal Debate Commission,
00:01:55.340 a government agency handpicked by Justin Trudeau,
00:02:00.180 declared that the three of us, that is, Andrew Lawton, Kian and David,
00:02:04.940 were not real journalists.
00:02:07.500 And so we were banned.
00:02:08.780 So Andrew, Kian and David went to court, the federal court,
00:02:13.840 and a justice, Russell Zinn was his name, of the federal court,
00:02:18.000 gave us an emergency injunction requiring that government agency to let us in.
00:02:24.000 And the rest was history.
00:02:25.480 If you can believe it,
00:02:26.940 Andrew, Kian and David asked more questions of Trudeau
00:02:31.080 than any other news network.
00:02:33.680 That's just one of a hundred stories of censorship and free speech in battle in Canada,
00:02:40.340 a subject we'll go deep on with,
00:02:42.820 with Andrew himself, who joins us now via Skype.
00:02:46.200 Andrew, great to see you again.
00:02:47.460 And once again, congratulations on being the pointy end of the spear on free speech.
00:02:52.280 Well, to you as well.
00:02:54.580 I mean, this was in many cases a very dismal year for free speech.
00:02:58.780 But I also think there were some positives that we'll get to,
00:03:01.340 in that how often we had the opportunity specifically to raise the alarm
00:03:06.380 and sound the alarm about these issues.
00:03:08.180 So the debate clip, the glory days of the campaign,
00:03:11.120 was just one of several examples this year
00:03:13.100 where we really got to shine the spotlight on that.
00:03:15.080 So it was unfortunate in some ways, but very fortunate in others.
00:03:19.200 Yeah, well, I'm really glad that you care about that.
00:03:21.500 And I know we all say we care about freedom of speech.
00:03:25.080 Certainly, if you ask any journalist, they'll all say,
00:03:28.620 oh, yes, yes, yes, I care.
00:03:29.960 And they'll do that because they know they're supposed to say that.
00:03:33.000 And they care about their own free speech.
00:03:36.960 But it's tougher to care about free speech for someone else,
00:03:39.760 especially someone else you might find irritating
00:03:42.600 or even contrary to your own views.
00:03:44.840 And that's what I think is slipping away.
00:03:46.840 I think that journalists are very fastidious about their own freedoms.
00:03:51.500 But if it's a rival journalist, especially in this age of social media censorship
00:03:55.120 and bailout money, I think most other journalists have decided,
00:04:00.140 yeah, they don't care so much about that.
00:04:01.660 Do you think I'm being too pessimistic, Andrew?
00:04:04.240 Well, I think the answer to that is always it depends.
00:04:06.840 I mean, there are going to be individual voices that do care
00:04:09.500 and that are on side with that.
00:04:11.700 And there are going to be, at the same time, people that don't.
00:04:14.420 And more importantly, I think the institutions themselves
00:04:17.040 are growing less supportive of free speech.
00:04:21.020 I mean, one of the highlights of my year, quite frankly,
00:04:23.440 was being in London for the Global Conference for Media Freedom
00:04:26.720 alongside you and Sheila Gunn-Reed of Rebel.
00:04:30.000 And we saw in that little few days of the conference,
00:04:34.740 reporters from the mainstream media actually stand up for press freedom.
00:04:38.160 As many people remember, we have the standing up for free speech
00:04:42.500 and press freedom rights for Sheila and I
00:04:44.820 when the ministry of Chrystia Freeland's office
00:04:47.880 was trying to block us from a press conference.
00:04:50.820 And that was a profoundly impactful moment
00:04:52.840 when the Globe and Mail, CTV, CBC, Al Jazeera, English,
00:04:56.740 they're all standing firm and saying,
00:04:58.300 listen, we're not covering this press conference
00:05:00.120 unless everyone is there.
00:05:01.500 And I think that that moment was a hugely positive one.
00:05:06.960 But you fast forward a couple of months,
00:05:09.040 you're in the federal court,
00:05:10.760 Candace Malcolm's in the federal court,
00:05:12.520 I'm holed up in a hotel room in Ottawa
00:05:14.300 wondering if we'll get to go to the debate.
00:05:16.320 And the sounds we heard from the mainstream media
00:05:19.200 were non-existent.
00:05:20.600 It was silence from them.
00:05:22.400 And I think that we need more like that London story
00:05:25.440 and less like the Ottawa story.
00:05:27.300 Yeah, that London story was truly amazing.
00:05:29.760 For one flicker of a moment,
00:05:31.920 I thought that maybe the tide was turning for freedom.
00:05:35.400 And it was at a media freedom conference.
00:05:38.760 And the fact that Chrystia Freeland
00:05:40.480 was trying to block journalists at that conference,
00:05:43.360 I think that combined with the fact
00:05:45.600 that it was you and Sheila,
00:05:47.360 so it seemed like it was not just one person,
00:05:50.480 it was a whole thing.
00:05:51.780 Let me play a clip of that
00:05:52.960 because Sheila caught most of that on tape.
00:05:55.800 Here, take a look at this.
00:05:56.780 Okay, so, um,
00:05:59.360 Glover Mail,
00:06:00.760 um,
00:06:02.220 World War,
00:06:03.380 and CTD,
00:06:04.520 Altaxera,
00:06:05.380 CBC,
00:06:06.040 and the National Conference Game.
00:06:07.780 And the other?
00:06:08.540 What about the rest?
00:06:09.120 The rest of us?
00:06:10.100 The rest of us will have to stay back.
00:06:11.360 No, I don't think we all go.
00:06:12.620 No, that's nonsense.
00:06:13.560 No, no, no, no.
00:06:14.100 That is nonsense.
00:06:14.520 We all go.
00:06:15.640 That's,
00:06:16.220 let's take us to the room
00:06:17.460 and we can see if we can...
00:06:18.380 No, we're not going, Brittany.
00:06:19.420 We're just not.
00:06:19.880 We're all going.
00:06:20.360 This is a media freedom conference.
00:06:21.700 Yeah, this is ridiculous.
00:06:22.520 We just don't do that.
00:06:23.160 I thought that was a beautiful moment.
00:06:27.140 But as you pointed out a moment ago,
00:06:28.940 when we were in court
00:06:30.640 in Federal Court of Canada in Toronto,
00:06:33.180 there were no interveners.
00:06:35.060 And I'm old enough to know, Andrew,
00:06:37.120 that it was only 10 years ago
00:06:38.900 that if one media company
00:06:41.120 got in trouble
00:06:41.960 in a way that could set a bad precedent,
00:06:44.800 they all went in
00:06:46.160 as a coalition of journalists.
00:06:47.940 Like, you would often see one lawyer
00:06:50.440 who would go to the court
00:06:52.000 to intervene and say,
00:06:53.620 Your Honor,
00:06:54.040 I'm here on behalf of a coalition
00:06:55.580 of the National Post
00:06:57.300 and the Globe and Mail
00:06:58.100 and the Toronto Sun
00:06:58.980 and CTV and CBC.
00:07:00.440 Like, it was almost a standing order
00:07:02.720 that everyone,
00:07:04.700 all for one and one for all,
00:07:06.340 they wouldn't,
00:07:07.020 you wouldn't see five lawyers
00:07:08.520 for five newspapers,
00:07:09.680 but you would see one excellent lawyer
00:07:11.820 who was instructed
00:07:13.900 by all the big media companies
00:07:15.780 to fight for the precedent.
00:07:19.160 That day is gone, Andrew.
00:07:21.720 I mean, maybe on some matters,
00:07:23.440 but it was just your lawyer
00:07:25.560 and our lawyers
00:07:27.580 in that room
00:07:29.100 fighting the government lawyers
00:07:30.360 by ourselves,
00:07:31.080 no other media
00:07:32.000 and not even civil liberties groups
00:07:34.160 like the Canadian
00:07:34.800 Civil Liberties Association.
00:07:36.780 That made me,
00:07:38.420 that took away all the love
00:07:39.600 I felt at that London free speech event
00:07:41.960 and replaced it with sadness.
00:07:43.200 Well, I will say to the credit
00:07:45.980 of the Canadian Civil Liberties Association,
00:07:47.940 they did put a message of support out
00:07:50.420 near the end of the case.
00:07:52.480 I think the case had been heard,
00:07:53.760 but the decision hadn't been announced yet
00:07:55.340 and they've been supportive since.
00:07:57.300 But I do agree that there was a time
00:07:59.140 when these things would be a given,
00:08:01.100 that press freedom's under attack.
00:08:03.360 It's like, you know,
00:08:04.780 a rampage of press
00:08:06.720 and other media companies
00:08:08.300 to the courtroom to say,
00:08:09.620 we're standing on principle.
00:08:10.880 And that hasn't happened now.
00:08:12.600 And I do think that the concerns
00:08:14.720 I would raise on this
00:08:16.460 are that everyone's so focused
00:08:18.560 on the context of what happens
00:08:21.520 if we support rebels' right
00:08:23.000 to press freedom.
00:08:24.220 Oh, I don't know if we want to do that.
00:08:25.860 And that's very dangerous
00:08:26.920 because the whole point of freedom
00:08:28.080 is that it's not supposed
00:08:29.000 to be contingent
00:08:29.920 on whether you like or dislike
00:08:31.420 the person, the outlet,
00:08:32.680 or the position.
00:08:33.740 And now it is.
00:08:34.680 And we saw this
00:08:35.520 after the London example
00:08:37.020 where people were actually
00:08:39.240 Twitter harassing
00:08:40.700 the reporters
00:08:41.620 who stood up for Sheila and I
00:08:43.380 because they're saying,
00:08:45.040 oh my goodness,
00:08:45.600 this is just this
00:08:46.260 right-wing media conspiracy,
00:08:47.660 which I find lackable
00:08:48.820 for many reasons.
00:08:50.000 You know,
00:08:50.560 they're legitimizing rebels.
00:08:52.120 Same as when you had
00:08:53.040 your op-ed on press freedom
00:08:54.260 in the Globe and Mail.
00:08:55.300 Oh, right.
00:08:55.500 Again, I'd say that's a win
00:08:56.880 for free speech,
00:08:57.720 you having that.
00:08:58.780 But then people say,
00:08:59.600 oh, but you're legitimizing them.
00:09:01.620 And they're more concerned
00:09:02.840 about what it means
00:09:04.360 to their culture battle
00:09:05.720 than what it means
00:09:07.040 for the broader culture.
00:09:08.180 Yeah, you know,
00:09:09.180 I'm glad you reminded me
00:09:10.380 of that Globe and Mail op-ed.
00:09:11.500 I was delighted
00:09:12.120 to be published there
00:09:13.440 because I was telling
00:09:14.620 the story of censorship.
00:09:15.920 I was telling the story
00:09:16.780 of how, in particular,
00:09:19.000 we were kept out,
00:09:20.180 me and Kian were kept out
00:09:22.100 of a Chrystia Freeland
00:09:23.060 press conference
00:09:23.760 and had to be sort of
00:09:24.960 smuggled in by
00:09:25.940 U.S. Secretary of State
00:09:27.580 Mike Pompeo.
00:09:28.440 We went in with
00:09:29.020 his media delegation.
00:09:30.660 I thought that was
00:09:31.440 really pitiful and lame.
00:09:32.400 I wrote about it
00:09:32.940 in the Globe
00:09:33.500 and the reaction
00:09:34.820 was almost comical.
00:09:37.500 It was like they were
00:09:38.780 playing right into
00:09:39.640 my narrative.
00:09:40.420 My narrative.
00:09:41.700 The union,
00:09:43.660 the Unifor union
00:09:45.260 for the Globe and Mail
00:09:46.500 wrote a scorching letter
00:09:49.060 to their own editor
00:09:51.440 outraged that they would
00:09:53.380 let me have an op-ed.
00:09:54.880 They didn't challenge
00:09:55.640 what I said in the op-ed.
00:09:57.280 They were just angry
00:09:58.360 that I was given
00:09:59.280 a voice at all.
00:10:01.000 They proved my point.
00:10:02.780 I think that's a very
00:10:04.120 dark sign, too,
00:10:05.300 that a media union,
00:10:07.580 the only thing
00:10:08.860 they have to say
00:10:09.400 about free speech
00:10:10.140 is let's have less of it.
00:10:11.860 That was in some ways
00:10:13.720 a crazier moment
00:10:15.140 than any.
00:10:16.220 Yeah.
00:10:16.760 Well, it's an interesting
00:10:17.900 point you raise
00:10:18.680 about the backdoor way
00:10:20.460 into that press conference
00:10:21.700 being through the U.S.
00:10:23.100 Because when I was
00:10:23.780 going through my ordeal,
00:10:25.440 which you and I spoke about
00:10:26.500 during the federal
00:10:27.900 election campaign,
00:10:29.120 just to give the brief
00:10:30.120 primer for those
00:10:30.940 not familiar with it,
00:10:31.780 I was banned from
00:10:32.780 covering Justin Trudeau's
00:10:34.760 campaign.
00:10:35.780 They said I wasn't
00:10:36.500 accredited media.
00:10:37.700 And at one point,
00:10:38.360 I think we actually
00:10:38.880 have the clip here,
00:10:40.160 I was denied entry
00:10:41.840 and then moments later
00:10:42.940 two students from,
00:10:44.440 I think they were
00:10:44.840 from a university
00:10:45.960 in the Burnaby area,
00:10:47.800 were allowed in.
00:10:48.780 And I think we have
00:10:49.440 that clip of them
00:10:50.360 trying to justify
00:10:51.420 why they did that.
00:10:52.580 Yeah, let's take a look
00:10:53.540 at that.
00:10:57.260 Hey.
00:10:58.060 I've been told,
00:10:58.740 unfortunately,
00:10:59.280 you're not an accredited media.
00:11:00.460 But you just asked her
00:11:01.620 to show you articles,
00:11:02.560 so I can show you
00:11:03.040 articles I've written.
00:11:03.700 I've just been told,
00:11:04.660 so unfortunately...
00:11:05.800 I know,
00:11:06.060 but why was the benchmark
00:11:06.860 for her just,
00:11:07.540 you know,
00:11:07.720 pull up on her phone
00:11:08.460 things she's written?
00:11:09.460 I can show you
00:11:09.960 things I've written
00:11:10.480 under my name.
00:11:11.040 My understanding
00:11:11.660 is that accreditation
00:11:12.580 wasn't provided,
00:11:13.540 so I'm so sorry.
00:11:14.420 But you just
00:11:14.860 provided accreditation.
00:11:16.440 They had already
00:11:17.540 been provided.
00:11:18.240 They were provided
00:11:18.740 the news release
00:11:19.440 and everything.
00:11:20.380 I was provided
00:11:20.880 the news release.
00:11:21.560 That's how I knew
00:11:21.920 where to come.
00:11:22.220 My instructions are...
00:11:23.600 That's how I knew
00:11:24.160 where to come.
00:11:24.740 Okay.
00:11:26.340 So you see right there,
00:11:27.540 they're making it up
00:11:28.280 as they go.
00:11:29.140 But the point about
00:11:29.860 the U.S. is important
00:11:30.980 because I had tried
00:11:31.880 to get a lot more
00:11:32.620 attention to this
00:11:33.520 in the Canadian media,
00:11:35.300 and I ended up
00:11:36.060 having to go to
00:11:37.640 the Washington Post,
00:11:39.000 which published
00:11:39.560 an op-ed of mine
00:11:40.420 on this,
00:11:41.480 and that was, again,
00:11:42.480 a great way to get
00:11:43.160 exposure to this.
00:11:44.240 But it's amazing
00:11:44.980 how there's a lot
00:11:45.760 more interest in this,
00:11:47.100 even in a Canadian context,
00:11:48.540 from Americans
00:11:49.460 than there is
00:11:50.660 from Canadians.
00:11:52.060 You're so right,
00:11:53.220 and it shouldn't
00:11:54.420 be that way.
00:11:55.020 I mean,
00:11:55.180 I know they have
00:11:55.760 their First Amendment,
00:11:56.700 and I'm very jealous
00:11:57.520 of that.
00:11:57.880 I wish we had it.
00:11:59.140 But we still do
00:12:00.360 have a history.
00:12:01.480 I mean,
00:12:01.960 I remember a few years
00:12:03.300 back,
00:12:03.560 I was trying to find
00:12:04.440 a true Canadian
00:12:05.480 free speech hero.
00:12:06.840 Well,
00:12:06.980 we actually do have one.
00:12:08.820 His name is Joseph Howe.
00:12:10.500 He was the first
00:12:11.360 premier of Nova Scotia,
00:12:13.000 but before that,
00:12:14.020 he was a newspaper
00:12:14.780 publisher who exposed
00:12:16.780 corruption in Halifax
00:12:18.440 City Hall,
00:12:19.180 and they prosecuted him
00:12:20.840 for seditious libel.
00:12:23.260 It was true
00:12:23.980 what he said,
00:12:24.920 but they prosecuted him
00:12:26.160 anyways.
00:12:27.360 The judge directed
00:12:29.140 a guilty verdict,
00:12:30.860 but the jury acquitted,
00:12:34.080 and he was his own lawyer.
00:12:36.640 And his final argument
00:12:39.560 was so powerful.
00:12:41.320 To this day,
00:12:42.020 you can read it
00:12:42.720 on the government
00:12:43.220 of the Nova Scotia's website.
00:12:45.200 Joseph Howe became a hero,
00:12:47.120 and it was a,
00:12:48.220 I would call that
00:12:48.860 the purest free speech moment
00:12:50.400 in Canadian history.
00:12:51.400 It was,
00:12:52.480 I don't know,
00:12:53.640 about a little bit less,
00:12:55.740 about 150 years ago.
00:12:58.460 And so it's a Canadian
00:13:01.120 thing too,
00:13:02.840 but I think it's been eroded
00:13:04.100 just like in the UK.
00:13:05.660 I think Canada and the UK
00:13:07.260 used to be
00:13:08.240 just as free speechy
00:13:10.020 as America,
00:13:11.380 but somehow both Canada
00:13:12.520 and the UK have lost it.
00:13:14.380 One of the most dismal things
00:13:16.540 that we see
00:13:17.400 in the Canadian government
00:13:19.100 narrative on free speech
00:13:20.860 is that freedom of speech
00:13:22.720 is an American concept.
00:13:24.360 And you'll remember this
00:13:25.140 actually back from
00:13:25.840 the glory days
00:13:26.560 of the Human Rights Commission fight.
00:13:28.560 One of the investigators
00:13:29.880 or commissioners
00:13:30.840 of the Canadian
00:13:31.540 Human Rights Commission,
00:13:33.020 Dean Stacey,
00:13:34.040 had testified
00:13:34.720 in a deposition
00:13:36.380 that,
00:13:37.100 oh, freedom of speech
00:13:37.800 is an American concept.
00:13:39.220 We don't have that here.
00:13:40.480 And more recently,
00:13:41.600 when the Parliament of Canada
00:13:43.420 was doing its study
00:13:44.500 on online hate,
00:13:45.900 basically the study
00:13:46.820 on whether to revive
00:13:47.880 Section 13,
00:13:49.100 there was the
00:13:50.200 Commissioner of the
00:13:51.180 Human Rights Commissions
00:13:52.040 of Saskatchewan
00:13:53.000 that got up
00:13:54.000 and said something
00:13:54.580 very similar,
00:13:55.340 that, well,
00:13:55.680 I mean,
00:13:55.840 we don't have
00:13:56.460 and we've never had
00:13:57.300 in Canada
00:13:57.760 a right to free speech.
00:13:59.360 Now, this is,
00:14:00.200 I think,
00:14:00.420 very important
00:14:01.180 because any time
00:14:02.000 someone tries
00:14:02.600 to split hairs
00:14:03.380 over freedom of speech
00:14:05.440 versus freedom of expression,
00:14:07.520 it's not because
00:14:08.300 they're genuinely
00:14:09.140 trying to find
00:14:10.080 the constitutional answer
00:14:11.340 to the question.
00:14:12.380 It's because
00:14:12.880 they're trying
00:14:13.300 to rationalize
00:14:14.340 the desire for censorship
00:14:15.560 that they already have.
00:14:17.340 And if anything,
00:14:18.240 freedom of expression,
00:14:19.700 which is how
00:14:20.180 it's laid out
00:14:20.780 in the Charter,
00:14:21.700 should be broader
00:14:22.700 than free speech
00:14:23.660 because speech
00:14:24.400 is a form of expression.
00:14:26.120 I mean,
00:14:26.280 if anything,
00:14:27.180 if we go based
00:14:27.820 on the wording alone
00:14:28.760 in Canada,
00:14:29.760 that right includes
00:14:30.620 the right to
00:14:31.240 an interpretive dance,
00:14:32.340 that includes
00:14:33.080 the right to,
00:14:34.180 you know,
00:14:34.660 a solo,
00:14:35.300 a poem,
00:14:35.900 a speech,
00:14:36.560 whatever.
00:14:37.260 But you have
00:14:37.980 so many people
00:14:38.760 that are hell-bent
00:14:39.440 in this idea
00:14:40.000 that everything
00:14:40.560 has to be contextualized,
00:14:42.280 that everything
00:14:42.900 has to be limited,
00:14:43.920 and they're far more
00:14:45.160 concerned with
00:14:45.860 how they can justify
00:14:47.020 drawing those boundaries
00:14:48.520 than they are
00:14:49.540 with standing up
00:14:50.400 for the fundamental
00:14:51.220 principle of free speech.
00:14:53.080 And I include
00:14:53.660 alongside that
00:14:54.700 freedom of the press.
00:14:55.880 Yeah.
00:14:56.260 You know,
00:14:56.860 you mentioned,
00:14:57.860 I mean,
00:14:58.260 you and us
00:14:59.360 at The Rebel
00:14:59.860 have been to
00:15:00.920 interesting events
00:15:01.880 together.
00:15:02.380 And by the way,
00:15:03.120 I want to tell you,
00:15:03.880 it's one of my favorite
00:15:04.640 things to see you
00:15:06.400 in another city
00:15:07.280 at something we're doing
00:15:08.600 because it makes me
00:15:09.880 feel less alone.
00:15:11.180 I mean,
00:15:11.400 I never feel truly alone.
00:15:13.060 I know our viewers
00:15:13.740 are with us.
00:15:14.540 But when we saw you
00:15:15.680 at that London
00:15:16.600 Media Freedom event,
00:15:17.780 it made me feel good
00:15:19.240 that we weren't
00:15:19.880 by ourselves.
00:15:21.300 And you came,
00:15:22.360 I think,
00:15:22.600 a few times,
00:15:23.340 two or three times
00:15:24.300 to London
00:15:25.420 for the trials
00:15:26.640 of Tommy Robinson.
00:15:27.760 And our viewers know
00:15:28.660 he's a colorful character
00:15:29.740 who sometimes
00:15:31.020 gets certain things wrong.
00:15:34.200 But on the core issue
00:15:35.420 of free speech,
00:15:36.920 he's a canary
00:15:37.680 in the coal mine
00:15:38.260 and he gets that
00:15:38.980 dead right.
00:15:39.560 I use the phrase,
00:15:43.260 Andrew,
00:15:43.580 that going to the UK
00:15:44.600 to see Tommy Robinson
00:15:45.760 is my own personal
00:15:46.840 dystopian time machine.
00:15:49.520 It's like I look
00:15:50.160 five years into the future
00:15:51.420 of our own censorship.
00:15:53.240 Can you give our viewers
00:15:54.680 your view?
00:15:55.400 Because everyone's heard me
00:15:56.280 on Tommy
00:15:56.720 probably 50 times.
00:15:59.280 But you were there
00:16:00.340 in the court
00:16:01.140 in the UK
00:16:02.240 watching
00:16:03.580 how the law
00:16:05.140 was used
00:16:05.860 to silence
00:16:07.960 some of the things
00:16:08.580 Tommy was saying,
00:16:09.220 but also
00:16:09.920 and maybe you could
00:16:10.900 speak to this
00:16:11.540 how the other media
00:16:13.600 there
00:16:14.200 handled the whole thing.
00:16:17.040 Give us your thoughts
00:16:17.900 on that.
00:16:19.140 Well, the one thing
00:16:19.940 I will say
00:16:20.440 and this is not
00:16:20.960 and I told you so
00:16:21.780 by any stretch
00:16:22.560 I was a lot less
00:16:23.680 optimistic
00:16:24.280 than you seem to be
00:16:25.560 throughout that hearing.
00:16:27.400 The one in which
00:16:28.100 he was ultimately
00:16:28.800 found to have
00:16:29.960 committed contempt
00:16:31.100 and not because
00:16:32.160 I thought that
00:16:32.980 the prosecutor
00:16:34.000 was making stellar cases
00:16:35.620 but just because
00:16:36.400 I saw the way
00:16:37.780 the institution
00:16:38.580 had been applied
00:16:39.360 against him
00:16:40.100 and I think
00:16:41.040 you were looking
00:16:41.600 too much
00:16:42.000 at the facts
00:16:42.680 of the case
00:16:43.540 which is dangerous
00:16:44.580 in British courts
00:16:45.360 I've learned.
00:16:45.880 You can't focus
00:16:46.400 too much on the facts
00:16:47.280 but I do think
00:16:49.020 that the one
00:16:50.140 big thing
00:16:50.800 we saw there
00:16:51.640 is that everyone
00:16:52.560 had made up
00:16:53.280 their mind
00:16:53.740 before it began
00:16:54.600 and the media
00:16:55.480 is certainly
00:16:57.260 not the exception
00:16:58.580 to that.
00:16:59.100 They're the rule.
00:16:59.660 I mean I don't
00:17:00.600 want to go back
00:17:01.260 and rehash the past
00:17:02.680 but I do have
00:17:03.560 to remind people
00:17:04.540 of that scoop
00:17:05.800 that I literally
00:17:06.480 just stumbled upon
00:17:07.540 by sitting down
00:17:08.440 and being innocuous
00:17:09.440 looking at the
00:17:10.700 very first appearance
00:17:12.120 of Tommy's
00:17:12.740 that I went to
00:17:13.420 in London
00:17:13.920 which I think
00:17:14.880 was going back
00:17:15.700 to when would
00:17:18.040 have been
00:17:18.260 I think it would
00:17:18.920 have been October
00:17:19.620 of 2018
00:17:20.880 and that was
00:17:22.820 when the reporters
00:17:24.360 sitting beside me
00:17:25.740 and behind me
00:17:26.500 were talking about
00:17:27.800 oh we know
00:17:28.220 he's guilty
00:17:28.740 let's change
00:17:29.660 the crowd size
00:17:30.460 number
00:17:30.780 because I don't
00:17:31.180 like the one
00:17:31.600 that the police
00:17:32.080 gave us
00:17:32.600 and yeah
00:17:33.600 he did it
00:17:34.080 I mean
00:17:34.320 and they're
00:17:34.760 just terrible
00:17:35.220 people
00:17:35.600 and I can't
00:17:36.460 remember if
00:17:36.660 it was that
00:17:37.100 visit or another
00:17:37.840 one where they
00:17:38.340 were saying
00:17:38.720 that you need
00:17:39.220 to be sent
00:17:39.660 to jail
00:17:40.080 for fomenting
00:17:40.800 hate
00:17:41.200 I mix it
00:17:42.960 all up
00:17:43.680 but this is
00:17:44.060 the type of
00:17:44.480 stuff we were
00:17:44.920 hearing from
00:17:45.380 the media
00:17:45.780 and then of
00:17:46.700 course the
00:17:47.080 media is
00:17:48.100 getting its
00:17:48.640 knickers in a
00:17:49.260 knot
00:17:49.480 because they're
00:17:50.480 being called
00:17:51.060 the enemy
00:17:51.480 of the people
00:17:52.080 well you're
00:17:52.940 maligning someone
00:17:53.920 who has a
00:17:54.820 great deal of
00:17:55.480 support
00:17:55.880 you're maligning
00:17:56.660 someone who's
00:17:57.700 standing up for
00:17:58.820 an issue that
00:17:59.540 the mainstream
00:18:00.020 media ignored
00:18:01.000 you're indicting
00:18:02.660 someone in print
00:18:03.560 before the judge
00:18:04.980 has actually even
00:18:05.820 heard the case
00:18:06.500 let alone decided
00:18:07.320 on it
00:18:07.720 and then you
00:18:08.400 dare to question
00:18:09.720 why you don't
00:18:10.880 have the complete
00:18:12.000 and unfettered
00:18:12.840 trust of the
00:18:13.460 audience
00:18:13.800 and the profound
00:18:15.080 arrogance that I
00:18:16.100 saw in that
00:18:17.220 trial specifically
00:18:18.240 far beyond what
00:18:19.220 I've seen in
00:18:19.720 Canada or in
00:18:20.820 America from the
00:18:21.600 media was
00:18:22.300 baffling to me
00:18:23.280 yeah
00:18:23.480 well I know
00:18:25.340 exactly what you
00:18:26.100 mean I was on
00:18:26.700 the stage with you
00:18:27.520 and it was just
00:18:28.080 such a
00:18:28.500 and they were
00:18:29.200 I think they
00:18:30.000 were like 3,000
00:18:30.840 people outside the
00:18:32.080 courthouse and so
00:18:32.800 you told the story
00:18:33.720 I think the story is
00:18:34.820 important for two
00:18:35.520 ways number one it
00:18:36.280 shows that the
00:18:36.980 media in the UK
00:18:38.020 were not doing
00:18:39.660 their traditional
00:18:40.380 job of holding
00:18:41.200 the government to
00:18:42.320 account they were
00:18:43.540 holding a citizen
00:18:44.620 to account on
00:18:45.960 behalf of the
00:18:46.480 government and
00:18:47.500 second of all
00:18:48.280 they were actually
00:18:49.580 making up a
00:18:51.060 story here I'll
00:18:52.780 let you say it in
00:18:53.940 your own words as
00:18:54.660 you said it that
00:18:55.280 day in London take
00:18:56.180 a look
00:18:56.520 the mainstream
00:18:57.840 media did not
00:18:59.020 know who I was
00:19:00.100 being the
00:19:00.600 undocumented
00:19:01.200 foreigner in
00:19:02.000 this land
00:19:02.560 and they were
00:19:04.780 speaking a little
00:19:05.560 candidly would you
00:19:06.580 like to hear what
00:19:07.420 they said
00:19:08.020 so where's Ezra my
00:19:12.820 personal favorite and
00:19:13.920 by the way this will
00:19:14.860 be quoted on my
00:19:16.440 website later today
00:19:17.440 with their publication
00:19:19.160 name
00:19:19.760 my personal favorite
00:19:25.400 was about our
00:19:27.480 friend Ezra Levant
00:19:28.520 quote he needs to
00:19:30.240 be arrested
00:19:31.080 he's whipped up hate
00:19:45.080 was what they said
00:19:46.340 before the proceeding
00:19:48.080 even started this is
00:19:49.420 what they said about
00:19:50.260 Tommy quote he is in
00:19:52.720 contempt of court
00:19:53.800 there's not really any
00:19:55.220 doubt and there was
00:20:01.300 one more you see one
00:20:02.760 of the great members
00:20:04.320 of the law enforcement
00:20:05.480 who have done a lot
00:20:06.160 of great work today
00:20:06.980 said to them at the
00:20:08.480 time there were about
00:20:09.540 1500 people they said
00:20:12.320 let's just say a few
00:20:14.300 hundred quote because
00:20:16.520 we don't want to give
00:20:17.680 it credit
00:20:18.380 this is why I got on
00:20:28.260 a plane to come here
00:20:29.620 to cover the facts
00:20:31.560 that's why I'm here
00:20:32.600 thank you
00:20:33.240 well I thought that
00:20:34.020 was incredible but let
00:20:34.940 me bring it back to
00:20:35.780 Canada because Justin
00:20:38.120 Trudeau was re-elected
00:20:39.720 and he's sent out new
00:20:43.100 mandate letters they're
00:20:45.000 called to his cabinet
00:20:46.700 ministers so those are
00:20:47.720 sort of here's your job
00:20:50.080 description and he
00:20:51.820 updated the mandate
00:20:53.580 letter for the minister
00:20:55.020 of heritage and I'd like
00:20:56.800 to read to you just one
00:20:58.920 new point from the
00:21:01.500 mandate letter for the
00:21:03.300 minister of heritage
00:21:03.940 because this was not
00:21:04.800 there until now I'm just
00:21:05.840 going to read it off my
00:21:06.560 phone but you can find
00:21:07.760 this online on the
00:21:08.500 prime minister's own
00:21:09.100 website one of the to-do
00:21:11.700 lists for Stephen Gilbo
00:21:13.960 the new heritage minister
00:21:15.180 is quote create not
00:21:17.720 new regulations for
00:21:19.960 social media platforms
00:21:21.660 starting with a
00:21:23.120 requirement that all
00:21:24.940 platforms remove illegal
00:21:26.920 content including hate
00:21:29.080 speech within 24 hours or
00:21:32.100 face significant penalties
00:21:34.000 so basically it's internet
00:21:37.260 censorship and I've never
00:21:39.840 heard of a justice system
00:21:41.080 that can hear a substantive
00:21:43.960 case in 24 hours so if
00:21:46.560 you're saying take down
00:21:48.480 any hate speech whatever
00:21:50.420 that means within 24
00:21:52.260 hours or face a huge
00:21:53.380 fine every single social
00:21:56.360 media company is going to
00:21:57.280 take down every single
00:21:58.580 thing because they're not
00:22:00.520 they're not going to risk
00:22:01.900 getting it wrong and you
00:22:03.780 can't figure it out in 24
00:22:05.180 hours this is basically says
00:22:07.420 when the government tells you
00:22:09.220 to delete something you'd
00:22:10.360 better delete it that's my
00:22:11.480 interpretation of this yeah
00:22:13.880 this is baffling to me and
00:22:15.660 in many ways that there
00:22:17.000 isn't more media criticism of
00:22:19.580 this and I was in the
00:22:20.980 committee meetings in June
00:22:22.860 specifically when the
00:22:24.380 justice and human rights
00:22:25.380 committee was weighing this
00:22:27.620 and what really came about
00:22:29.720 from those testimonies and
00:22:31.280 also from the report that
00:22:33.400 was tabled before parliament
00:22:34.640 is that the government wants
00:22:35.720 to deputize big tech to do the
00:22:38.320 work that government itself
00:22:39.660 could never get away with
00:22:40.720 doing because now if the
00:22:42.620 government's prosecuting you
00:22:43.960 for hate speech as heavy
00:22:47.120 handed as it is and as much
00:22:48.700 as a kangaroo court as the
00:22:49.980 Canadian Human Rights
00:22:50.680 Commission is there's at the
00:22:51.720 very least some sunlight to
00:22:53.460 that now what's happening is
00:22:55.300 Facebook is deciding we're
00:22:57.840 going to get rid of this on
00:22:58.900 its own which as a private
00:23:00.120 company it can set whatever
00:23:01.320 boundary it wants to but
00:23:02.920 they're doing it now with the
00:23:04.280 backing and with the threat of
00:23:06.240 punishment from the state and
00:23:08.060 if you're Facebook especially
00:23:09.460 Facebook and Twitter which are
00:23:10.920 American companies Canada is
00:23:12.880 just such an itty-bitty cog in
00:23:15.220 their global operations they
00:23:17.060 aren't going to want to deal
00:23:17.860 with the hassle of litigating
00:23:19.780 hate speech cases in Canada so
00:23:21.820 it's easy for them to as you say
00:23:23.880 just go along with the lie that
00:23:25.760 this is hate speech and that is
00:23:27.240 hate speech nowhere in the
00:23:29.120 heritage ministers mandate letter
00:23:30.820 is there a definition of hate
00:23:33.020 speech nowhere in the report on
00:23:35.400 online hate that was produced by
00:23:36.880 the justice committee is there a
00:23:38.680 definition of hate speech
00:23:39.860 nowhere in the mandate letter is
00:23:42.020 there a commitment that the
00:23:43.480 heritage minister must define
00:23:45.520 hate speech they're just saying
00:23:47.220 this is what you have to do and
00:23:49.420 it's not just heritage Ezra four
00:23:51.460 different ministers in their
00:23:53.040 mandate letters had online hate
00:23:55.680 mandates there including the
00:23:57.980 public safety minister the justice
00:23:59.900 minister the diversity minister and
00:24:02.620 the heritage minister so this is
00:24:04.120 going to be a priority that spans
00:24:05.480 at the very least four ministries
00:24:07.120 and not even working with a
00:24:08.680 definition of what it is they're
00:24:09.960 prosecuting you know it's
00:24:11.860 incredible and I've been the
00:24:13.780 subject of complaints online Twitter
00:24:17.580 for example they never tell you who
00:24:19.840 the complainant is except in one
00:24:22.640 case I was told that it was the
00:24:24.940 government of Pakistan I've also
00:24:27.860 seen some people say the
00:24:28.920 government of Germany because
00:24:31.120 those are two countries that have
00:24:32.220 extreme censorship laws by the way it
00:24:35.360 just made me remember when I was in
00:24:36.980 that London media freedom conference
00:24:38.300 with you I stumbled upon the
00:24:40.900 foreign minister of Pakistan I
00:24:42.360 didn't even know that's who he was
00:24:43.940 and I I was a little shouty but just
00:24:48.160 for old time's sake let me show you
00:24:49.940 when I bumped into the foreign
00:24:52.000 minister of Pakistan and I was very
00:24:53.860 mad at him because he was trying to
00:24:57.160 censor me using an American platform
00:25:01.140 called Twitter in Canada he was
00:25:04.060 trying to use his Pakistani law here
00:25:05.800 take a look at this I'm really sorry
00:25:07.600 but we're kind of running out of time
00:25:09.280 we're going to have a panel session I
00:25:11.380 wonder if there are any questions very
00:25:12.620 briefly for Minister Popovsky I see
00:25:16.980 there are not there is one yes very
00:25:19.160 quick one thanks actually I'm not going
00:25:21.420 to be directed by you I'm going to ask
00:25:22.940 a question to the Pakistani gentleman
00:25:24.760 now you know yes I am because it's a
00:25:26.840 media freedom conference and you're
00:25:28.280 not going to shut down questions about
00:25:30.160 a censor you censored me sir I have a
00:25:33.260 twitter account in Canada and because I
00:25:35.660 wrote something that traduce some
00:25:37.560 Pakistani blasphemy law you complained
00:25:40.940 to Twitter which took down my tweet in
00:25:43.760 Canada so can you explain why your
00:25:47.160 Islamic supremacy in Pakistan is
00:25:50.460 silencing my personal and journalistic
00:25:52.680 freedom in Canada and I know it
00:25:54.780 happens in the United States too and
00:25:56.400 frankly you sure should be embarrassed
00:25:58.320 to invite a censor like this but back to
00:26:00.000 the thought who the hell are you to
00:26:01.980 censor me in Canada answer I know you
00:26:06.080 don't because you don't like free
00:26:07.440 speech you don't like free speech
00:26:10.460 ok I just I just want to use first of
00:26:14.940 all you want your sentiments with a
00:26:18.240 respect is that is why did you censor me
00:26:28.620 did I say you you shut down my Twitter
00:26:30.780 time you thought don't lie because the
00:26:36.240 government of Pakistan dance the
00:26:38.180 government of Pakistan you know you are
00:26:40.980 not you censored me I did not come to you
00:26:43.200 don't lie because that's what you do
00:26:46.320 I'm sorry I'm sorry shame on you and
00:26:50.640 shame on you shame on you and shame on you
00:26:53.760 for inviting it shame on you you
00:26:56.700 censorious thug you censorious thug and what
00:27:01.320 you call freedom at times you are
00:27:04.260 projecting certain sectoral agenda now
00:27:07.200 Andrew at least I knew that it was the
00:27:09.680 government of Pakistan that was trying to
00:27:11.300 censor me there I'm not sure if we will
00:27:14.340 even know if it's the government of
00:27:16.980 Canada or a politician or who that's
00:27:20.140 telling these social media companies to
00:27:21.740 censor us under the I mean we'll have to
00:27:23.980 wait and see what the regulations are but
00:27:25.540 Justin Trudeau sure seems intent on
00:27:28.540 censoring people he doesn't like and doing
00:27:30.780 it before they have a chance for a
00:27:32.700 meaningful process 24 hours there's no
00:27:35.400 there's no legal process that works in
00:27:37.220 24 hours not that I've heard of well and
00:27:39.680 there will be no remedy or no appeal if
00:27:42.200 they get it wrong and you know one of the
00:27:44.780 things that I would hope to I mean I hope
00:27:46.420 to see this not happen but if it is going
00:27:48.040 to happen if you're googling something for
00:27:50.340 example like let's say you're googling
00:27:51.760 Game of Thrones you'll see a notice at
00:27:54.280 the bottom of the results page often that
00:27:56.260 says and you can probably throw up an
00:27:57.360 example of this you know we've removed
00:27:59.740 X number of results because of copyright
00:28:01.760 complaints or complaints under the I think
00:28:03.820 it's the DCMA or the DMCA Act whatever
00:28:06.040 it is and I would love to see something
00:28:08.560 like that on social media where if you're
00:28:10.220 removing the content you better say
00:28:12.580 because of a directive from the federal
00:28:15.320 government we're removing this be not
00:28:17.280 because you violated our terms of service
00:28:19.100 but because the government told us to
00:28:21.040 and I would love to see a lot more
00:28:22.740 transparency around that if this is the
00:28:24.620 direction we're going to go very
00:28:26.280 interesting well I guess what I'm taking
00:28:28.280 away from this conversation is that
00:28:30.580 2020 will even be tougher for free speech
00:28:35.960 than 2019 that's how I'm I didn't know
00:28:38.480 this was in four different ministries this
00:28:42.080 requirement to censor that makes it four
00:28:44.900 times as bad and four times as likely that
00:28:47.380 it'll happen last word to you Andrew
00:28:49.640 thanks for giving so much your time and
00:28:51.400 and by the way Merry Christmas and Happy
00:28:53.380 New Year and keep up the fight we're big
00:28:55.360 Facebook's going to take that down you
00:28:56.980 can't say Merry Christmas now that's
00:28:58.960 right that's that's hate speech that'll
00:29:00.480 be taken down from Twitter we're real
00:29:02.760 fans of True North because I feel like
00:29:04.720 you guys are fighting for freedom not
00:29:06.760 just in your journalism but you were
00:29:08.160 there with us in court so I didn't feel
00:29:10.380 alone that day and I know that I just
00:29:14.220 am going to make a prediction right now
00:29:15.740 both you and us will be censored in some
00:29:19.420 way in the year ahead and I hope that we
00:29:21.600 can fight back and maybe even get a few
00:29:23.820 more allies going it sure would be nice
00:29:26.900 but even if we're fighting alone we've
00:29:28.380 got our viewers with us last word to you
00:29:30.020 my friend you know what I will say I
00:29:32.520 think first off thank you for
00:29:33.620 dedicating so much time to this topic
00:29:35.400 censorship is the enemy of speech but by
00:29:37.760 the extension speech is the enemy of
00:29:39.440 censorship and I think that it's
00:29:40.840 important that you never cowed tau to
00:29:43.340 this narrative and to this pressure I'm
00:29:46.240 fighting it in my own way I'm going to
00:29:47.900 be relaunching my old show the Andrew
00:29:50.040 Lawton show as a podcast in the new
00:29:51.600 year the antidote to this is going to be
00:29:53.720 speech so I'm happy to be in this fight
00:29:55.300 and I'm happy you're here in it as well
00:29:56.900 right on well I can hardly wait for that
00:29:58.800 show to be launched and folks who aren't
00:30:01.620 already supporters of Andrew can find
00:30:04.080 his work at tnc.news is that right
00:30:07.500 that's correct tnc.news all right take
00:30:11.580 care my friend thanks so much you too
00:30:13.660 thanks okay well there you have it our
00:30:15.740 good friend Andrew Lawton that's it for
00:30:17.540 today on behalf of all of us here at
00:30:19.660 rebel world headquarters to you at home
00:30:21.280 good night and keep fighting for
00:30:23.200 freedom
00:30:25.480 good night and keep fighting for freedom
00:30:37.820 so
00:30:38.620 you