Rebel News Podcast - EZRA LEVANT ｜ An eminent foreign affairs scholar has bad news about the Ukraine-Russia war

00:00:00.000 Hello, my friends. Today, I want to take you through a very interesting speech

00:00:04.240 by Professor John Mearsheimer, who takes an alternative view to the war between Russia

00:00:09.320 and Ukraine. Mearsheimer is a longtime supporter of Ukraine. In fact, he argued it should never

00:00:15.820 have given up its nukes 30 years ago after the Cold War. But he thinks this current war is

00:00:20.900 untenable, and he'll give you the reasons why. I'll play about 10 clips of it for you.

00:00:25.420 But first, let me invite you to become a subscriber to Rebel News Plus. That's the

00:00:28.620 video version of the show. I'd like you to see, I mean, you'll hear what Mearsheimer has to say.

00:00:32.660 Of course you will. But I would like you to see him also. And I think his presentation

00:00:36.960 is enhanced by seeing him. And of course, we play other videos too. To see him, you just need what

00:00:44.020 we call Rebel News Plus. Go to rebelnewsplus.com, click subscribe. It's eight bucks a month to get

00:00:47.980 the video version of the podcast and the satisfaction of helping one of the few media

00:00:52.840 companies in the country that does not take any government money. All right, here's today's podcast.

00:00:58.620 Tonight, an eminent foreign affairs scholar has bad news about the Ukraine-Russia war.

00:01:21.340 It's June 8th, and this is the Ezra LeVant Show.

00:01:24.380 You're ready for freedom!

00:01:27.300 Shame on you, you censorious bug!

00:01:39.180 John Mearsheimer is a senior professor and scholar at the University of Chicago. Very prestigious

00:01:45.340 school. He's a political scientist. He studies foreign relations. He's a Cold War buff. And we're

00:01:52.340 in a new Cold War now, don't you think? He's been around for a while. He's in his mid-70s.

00:01:56.960 And he's no stranger to controversy. If it matters to you, he has said that he was a Bernie Sanders

00:02:02.140 supporter. But I don't think it should matter because his expertise is foreign affairs, not

00:02:06.300 domestic politics. I was just disclosing it to you. He gave a speech a few days ago in Germany

00:02:11.980 that I stumbled across on TikTok. That's the China-controlled social media app. I can't tell

00:02:19.760 you how hard it was to try to find that speech on Western search engines. I couldn't, actually. I had

00:02:27.220 to go back in through TikTok and find it there. That's how it is with this war. I'm certain that

00:02:33.760 the algorithms are suppressing critical voices. Mearsheimer is interesting on Ukraine. Do you know

00:02:40.040 that after the Berlin Wall fell? I think you know this. And the Soviet republics, you know, it was the

00:02:45.200 USSR, the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. So Ukraine was part of the Soviet Union. It was a

00:02:51.960 republic. But of course, it became an independent country again. But of course, there were Russian

00:02:56.720 military bases, Soviet military bases in all these republics. And Ukraine had a rather large one. Of

00:03:02.380 course, it had the seaport of Sevastopol. Ukraine, when the Soviet Union disintegrated, was left with a

00:03:08.820 massive military, including a lot of nuclear weapons. Like, all of a sudden, Ukraine was at the

00:03:15.340 grown-up table. But the United States and the United Kingdom presided over a treaty whereby Ukraine would

00:03:24.760 give up its nukes in return for a promise of protection from the West. Well, Mearsheimer was against that

00:03:33.220 at the time. He thought that taking away Ukraine's nukes made it vulnerable to Russia to reinvade it,

00:03:39.800 especially if Ukraine were to move out of Russia's political and economic orbit and reorient towards

00:03:45.260 the West. I say this because Mearsheimer is no pro-Russia shill. He's the one who said,

00:03:52.220 don't give up your nukes, Ukraine. Don't do it. It's your only way to protect yourself. And isn't he right?

00:03:57.500 It's unthinkable that Putin would have invaded if Ukraine had nukes. That's the thing about nukes.

00:04:04.500 No country that has them has ever been invaded, nor could they ever be invaded. There's a reason for

00:04:11.880 that, which we should think about a little bit as we talk about fighting and killing Russians. Here's

00:04:19.320 a Republican named Lindsey Graham. Free or die. Free or die. Now you are free. Yes. And we will be.

00:04:26.640 And the Russians are dying. It's the best money we've ever spent. Thank you so much. Yeah, that's

00:04:33.200 awful. Democrat or Republican. Is that how we talk these days? What do you think of that kind of talk?

00:04:40.320 Hmm. Anyways, Mearsheimer talks about another treaty involving Ukraine. It was called Minsk. Minsk too.

00:04:48.000 That's named after the Eastern European city. In 2015, they had a treaty that they hammered out

00:04:52.900 there. This was after Russia's first invasion of Ukraine. And reading through Minsk too, as it was

00:04:59.400 called, it sounds pretty good now. Cease fire in Ukraine. Withdraw heavy weapons from Ukraine.

00:05:08.080 Release prisoners of war. Have constitutional reforms to give more power and protection to the

00:05:14.460 Donbass region. That's the Russian ethnic, Russian speaking, Russian ethnicity region. Maybe it would

00:05:20.320 be like Scotland having his own first minister or something. Now, Vladimir Putin seems to have really

00:05:25.020 believed in the Minsk too accords. But incredibly, the former leaders of Germany and France who negotiated

00:05:35.120 the two, they have since admitted it was, it was basically a trick just to keep Russia busy and buy

00:05:43.280 Ukraine more time. They never stopped their plans to militarize Ukraine, apparently. Here's a story

00:05:49.840 in Reuters, and I'm quoting Western sources here. Here's a Reuters story. Putin had been asked about

00:05:55.240 remarks by former German Chancellor Angela Merkel, one of the agreement's sponsors, who told the site

00:06:01.560 magazine in an interview published on Wednesday, that the 2014 agreement had been, quote, an attempt

00:06:08.480 to give Ukraine time, which it had used to become more able to defend itself. Russian media and

00:06:15.040 politicians have quickly construed this as a betrayal on Merkel's part. Okay, well, here's the story in

00:06:20.740 the pro-Ukraine Kiev independent newspaper. So again, I'm quoting from Western sources here, not Russian

00:06:28.060 sources, the Kiev independent. In an interview with the German newspaper Zeit, Angela Merkel said about

00:06:33.640 the Minsk protocols that, quote, it was obvious that the conflict was going to be frozen, that the

00:06:38.880 problem was not solved, but it just gave Ukraine precious time. And then they asked the former French

00:06:45.900 President Hollande, they said, do you also believe that the negotiations in Minsk were intended to delay

00:06:53.280 Russian advances in Ukraine? And Francois Hollande, that's the former President of France, says, yes,

00:07:00.740 Angela Merkel is right on this point. So they admit that their peace talks with Russia were just to

00:07:08.440 keep Russia fooled and busy while they were militarizing and preparing for the next battle

00:07:13.900 with Russia. That's some background, because Mearsheimer is going to refer to it. By the way,

00:07:18.340 Mearsheimer says that if these various peace deals, if the Minsk Accords had been done,

00:07:23.780 he thinks there's no way Russia would have invaded, because it wouldn't have felt surrounded and

00:07:28.680 threatened by a militarized Ukraine right on its doorstep. He thinks that had the West actually

00:07:35.080 meant those peace treaties, Ukraine today would be peaceful and whole, and Russia wouldn't have

00:07:41.780 invaded and Crimea would still be part of Ukraine. He argues that Russia did not invade Ukraine this

00:07:48.320 last year to create a new empire, but rather to stop its feeling of being encircled, that the West

00:07:55.660 insists on doing. So I found this speech on TikTok, the Chinese app, which tells me that the NATO apps

00:08:04.000 don't want to show it. And I watched it all the way through, and I found it very interesting. I'm not

00:08:08.340 saying I agree with it all. It was just so startling to hear from. I want to show you about a dozen clips

00:08:13.780 from Mearsheimer's speech, mainly because I've never heard this point of view expressed before.

00:08:19.540 It's clear that he likes Ukraine. He sympathizes with Ukraine. He warned it against disarming,

00:08:26.560 you know, 30 years ago. He wishes it were peaceful, but he is called a Putin sympathizer because he

00:08:33.180 thinks the war right now is foolish and dangerous. But of course, I wanted to tell you a little bit

00:08:39.380 about Mearsheimer and a little bit about the nuke agreement and the Minsk agreements, because they're

00:08:45.000 referred to in the speech, and it helps to know what that was about. So here's some clips, and I'd like

00:08:50.960 your thoughts on this. What do you think about what I'm going to show you? And have you ever even heard

00:08:56.240 this point of view before? And do you agree that you can be against the war without being for Putin?

00:09:03.900 Here, let's start with Mearsheimer outlining what he thinks are the four parts of this conversation.

00:09:10.600 What I want to do is give a four-part talk on Ukraine, the Ukraine war. And I want to first

00:09:20.100 talk about the causes of the Ukraine war. Then I want to talk about what is likely to happen on the

00:09:28.740 battlefield in the conflict. In other words, who is going to win the war? Then third, I want to talk

00:09:37.980 about the prospects for a peace agreement or the prospects for a diplomatic solution. And then fourth,

00:09:46.340 I want to talk about the future of European-Russian relations or the future of relations between Russia

00:09:55.960 and the West. And of course, that is great relevance for Germany. So those are the four parts

00:10:02.480 of the talk. All right, let's get right into it. Here is Mearsheimer making the case that Russia did not

00:10:09.420 plan to expand. It was not feasible. It was not something that they wanted to do. They are not on an imperialistic,

00:10:18.040 aggressive, conquering streak. He says he believes that it was a defensive military operation. Here,

00:10:26.220 he makes the case. What do you think? Let me start with the causes of the war. How did this happen?

00:10:32.940 The conventional wisdom, as almost all of you know, is that it's Vladimir Putin's fault and that

00:10:39.600 Vladimir Putin is an imperialist or an expansionist at heart. And what he wanted to do was either create

00:10:49.080 a greater Russia or recreate the Soviet Union. And to do this, he had to first start by conquering

00:10:59.820 and annexing Ukraine, making it part of Russia. And Ukraine was, of course,

00:11:09.180 just the first target. When he was finished with Ukraine, he would go on to the Baltic states or to

00:11:15.140 Poland or to Romania. This is a man who had imperial ambitions. And therefore, it's commonplace in the West

00:11:24.260 to say that the attack was unprovoked. In other words, we did nothing. It was Vladimir Putin who was in

00:11:33.760 the driver's seat. And he was not provoked. He started this war because he has imperial ambitions. That,

00:11:44.260 of course, is the conventional wisdom. There is no evidence to support that line of evidence. I want to

00:11:52.340 underline that. There is no evidence. You have to ask yourself three questions when you hear that line

00:12:00.400 of argument. First of all, where does he say that that's desirable, right? That it's a desirable thing

00:12:11.600 to do. Where does he say that that's a feasible thing to do? And where does he say that's what I plan

00:12:21.420 to do? And the answer is, there is no evidence that he said that this was desirable to incorporate

00:12:30.880 Ukraine into Russia. There's no evidence that he said that it was feasible. And there's no evidence

00:12:38.640 that he believed that this was what he was setting out to do. There's just no evidence.

00:12:45.760 You know, there's something in the Americas called the Monroe Doctrine. It basically is an American policy

00:12:51.660 that says no foreign power can set up a base or can interfere with politics in North America, of course,

00:12:59.120 or Central or South America. That's the reason why when the Soviet Union put nuclear missiles in Cuba, or

00:13:07.220 were starting to, Kennedy embargoed that country, put the naval blockade and really brought the world to

00:13:14.160 the brink of nuclear war, because he did not want to break the principle that you cannot have enemy

00:13:20.340 weapons that close to America. That's the Monroe Doctrine. And the way Mearsheimer describes it is

00:13:27.180 Russia is feeling sort of the same way that America felt in the 60s, that NATO is growing, even though the

00:13:35.880 Cold War is over and they're being encircled. Here, here's how he puts it. What really is going on here

00:13:42.880 is that the West is principally responsible for causing this war. And it's because the West

00:13:54.520 West was bent on turning Ukraine into a Western bulwark on Russia's border. And there were three parts

00:14:04.680 to the West strategy. The first was to include Ukraine in NATO. The second was to include Ukraine

00:14:14.640 in the European Union. And the third element of the strategy was to turn Ukraine into a liberal democracy

00:14:24.320 that had a pro-West orientation. And of course, we talked about this as the Orange Revolution.

00:14:31.440 Those were the three elements in the strategy. The most important of the three was, of course,

00:14:38.080 NATO expansion. And in April of 2008, at the NATO summit in Bucharest, NATO said that Ukraine

00:14:49.280 Ukraine would become part of NATO. Putin was actually at that meeting. And Putin made it clear at the time.

00:14:59.120 And Russian leaders had made it clear even before the Bucharest meeting that Ukraine in NATO,

00:15:10.160 Ukraine as a Western bulwark on Russia's border, was an existential threat. And they were not going to

00:15:18.880 allow that to happen. Just not going to happen. So how's it going to end? Well, it's a terrible vision,

00:15:27.760 but I have trouble challenging it. He says that Russia will annex a big chunk of Ukraine,

00:15:35.120 like it did last time. It'll continue to. In fact, he thinks that Russia will get more territory.

00:15:40.720 And he says that both sides will engage in a form of ethnic cleansing. Now, I don't think he means

00:15:47.520 murder or concentration camps, per se. I think he means that in the Russian areas conquered by Russia,

00:15:55.440 they'll drive out Ukrainians. And in the remaining part of Ukraine that he calls a rump, a smaller country,

00:16:02.560 Russians will be driven out of there, too. So you'll have both countries sort of pull back their ethnic

00:16:11.520 citizens. And it'll just be a permanent frozen war. Here, take a listen.

00:16:17.520 Now, the next question that I want to address is what's likely to happen on the battlefield?

00:16:24.240 Right. Given where we are today, who is likely to win this war? This is one of the most difficult

00:16:32.640 questions to wrestle with because the media coverage of the subject is so terrible.

00:16:39.680 Anything that happens on the battlefield, the Western media twists in ways that make it look

00:16:46.720 like the Ukrainians are doing well and the Russians are doing poorly. So you don't get a very good sense of

00:16:52.720 what's going on from looking at the mainstream media in the West.

00:16:59.600 My basic argument is the Russians are going to win the war. And once I say that, two questions

00:17:09.120 come to the fore. The first question is, what does victory mean? If I say the Russians are going to win

00:17:15.440 the war, what does that mean? And then the second question that you want to ask yourself is,

00:17:21.440 why is John saying that the Russians are going to win? What's the basis of his argument? OK,

00:17:27.680 so those are the two questions. Now, when I say the Russians are going to win the war,

00:17:32.400 I am not saying that they are going to conquer all of Ukraine. Right. They're going to conquer all of

00:17:41.280 Ukraine and then cause regime change in Kyiv. Right. And so that they get a neutral government

00:17:52.720 and then withdraw. That's that's not going to happen. They're not going to win a decisive victory. OK.

00:18:01.120 What the Russians are going to do is the Russians are going to take a huge chunk of Ukrainian territory

00:18:09.760 and they're going to annex it. And furthermore, because they're not likely to get regime change

00:18:18.560 and get a government that is neutral, they are going to make sure that Ukraine is a dysfunctional

00:18:26.320 rub state. Dysfunctional in the sense that its economy is in constant trouble and dysfunctional

00:18:35.120 in the sense that they're going to be constantly interfering in Ukraine's politics, hopefully to get

00:18:40.800 regime change from their point of view. And then it's going to be a rump state because it's going to be

00:18:47.360 only part of what is today or what was in 2014 Ukraine. I think it's likely that the Russians will

00:19:00.240 not give back Crimea or the four oblasts that they have already annexed. They've already annexed,

00:19:08.720 as you know, four oblasts, two of them in the Donbass, Zaporozhia and Hirsan. And

00:19:18.720 I believe they will end up, if they can, militarily annexing four more oblasts, including Odessa and Kharkiv.

00:19:32.480 I'm not saying that they will do that, but I believe they will try to do that.

00:19:36.880 They will concentrate on incorporating those areas that have lots of ethnic Russians and Russian speakers

00:19:47.600 in them. And they will avoid those areas that are populated mainly by ethnic Russians.

00:19:56.000 As all of you know, there was a huge conflict in the Donbass from February 2014, when the crisis first

00:20:04.880 broke out up until February 24, 2022, when the war broke out, the war that's now going on. There was

00:20:14.880 a civil war in effect taking place in the Donbass between the Ukrainian government and the ethnic Russians

00:20:22.880 Russians and Russian speakers in the Donbass. The Russians want to make sure that that will never

00:20:30.320 happen again. And as a result, they will cleave off those areas that have lots of ethnic Russians

00:20:39.440 and Russian speakers to avoid the Donbass problem. And I hate to say this, but I think there will be a

00:20:47.600 significant amount of ethnic cleansing. And I believe there has already been ethnic cleansing where ethnic

00:20:54.400 Ukrainians will move out of those areas that the Russians annex and ethnic Russians and Russians remaining

00:21:03.920 in areas that are part of that rump Ukraine will move to the Russian areas. The hyper nationalism that now exists

00:21:14.640 in Ukraine is so powerful that it's going to be very difficult for people who identify in any way with

00:21:22.640 Russia to remain in that Ukrainian rump state. And it'd be very difficult for Ukrainian ethnic Ukrainians to remain

00:21:33.600 in that Russian annexed territory. Now, Amir Scheimer makes a prediction about how the war is going to end

00:21:41.120 militarily. And this is so hard to know because the only reporters on the ground where these battles are

00:21:47.600 happening are either embedded with the Ukrainian forces or embedded with the Russian forces. There's no

00:21:53.440 independent neutral reporting there. And so each side is obviously puffing up their wins and minimizing their

00:22:02.400 losses. It's only when each team admits to a loss that I think we can credibly trust them. I don't think

00:22:08.880 we can trust either side when they boast of a win, only when they make an admission against their own

00:22:13.840 interests. But despite that, Amir Scheimer says, look, I think there's certain facts that we can tell

00:22:20.000 in terms of manpower and artillery that we can know. And he says that with Russia's growth and Ukraine being

00:22:29.360 partly conquered and millions of Ukrainians leaving the country as refugees, the population imbalance is

00:22:36.720 enormous. And the artillery ratio that just plain old big guns and shells that Russia has versus Ukraine,

00:22:45.120 it's five to one or even ten to one. He says there's simply no way to beat that, at least not quickly.

00:22:52.320 Here, take a look. This is a classic attrition war. This is like World War I. In fact, it's more like

00:23:00.880 World War I than it is like World War II. And you have two armies, two large armies, standing toe to toe,

00:23:09.280 beating the living daylights out of each other, bleeding the other side white or trying to bleed the

00:23:17.200 other side white. There's no blitzkrieg involved here. This is not France 1940, right? This is the

00:23:23.680 Western Front in World War I. And in a war of attrition, two things really matter. One is population

00:23:34.400 size. How many people do you have? And basically we're talking about how many young men do you have?

00:23:40.560 And number two, what does the balance of artillery look like? And the reason the balance of artillery

00:23:47.040 matters is that in a war of attrition, artillery is the principal weapon on the battlefield.

00:23:53.840 When I was in the army back in the day, artillery was referred to as the king of battle.

00:23:59.680 Can you dispute it? And of course, it is possible to beat Russia. Depends on how deeply

00:24:08.000 the United States or the United Kingdom get involved. But how do you beat a nuclear power?

00:24:14.160 If something goes horribly wrong, at the end of the day, they have that high risk approach

00:24:20.080 of using, God forbid, may it never happen, tactical nukes in Ukraine. And it's atrocious to even talk

00:24:26.960 about it. But isn't that the reason why Russia and the United States have not fought with each other

00:24:32.480 since the dawn of the nuclear era, mutually assured destruction? Meersheimer makes the case that the

00:24:39.200 tough talk in the West, what we saw Lindsey Graham talking about, or even Justin Trudeau and Melanie

00:24:44.480 Jolie talking about not only extirpating every Russian from Ukraine, but going back and conquering

00:24:50.960 Crimea, which is what Zelensky proposes. The way Meersheimer sees it is that these threats from America and

00:24:58.560 NATO and Zelenskyy to drive Russia out of Ukraine, out of Crimea, to have war reparations, to have,

00:25:07.920 you know, international criminal court crimes against humanity trials, war crimes trials.

00:25:14.720 These are various demands. And I've seen them myself when I was in Davos. Ukraine had a public

00:25:19.440 pavilion calling for war crimes, trials and reparations. If that happens, whether against Putin

00:25:26.080 or some successor, I think Meersheimer's right to say that that feels like an existential threat to

00:25:31.360 Russia. There are even some people who say Russia itself should be broken up into pieces.

00:25:36.720 So remember that Russia is used to enormous odds before from the West. They were invaded from the

00:25:42.480 West before, whether it was Napoleon or Hitler. And in both cases, they just, the meat grinder churned up

00:25:50.720 thousands, hundreds of thousands, millions of Russian men, but they stopped the attack. They're

00:25:55.840 used to invasions from the West and it's a deep part of their psyche. Here, here's Meersheimer talking

00:26:00.560 about it. So the only hope the Ukrainians have is that they have more resolve to stay in the fight

00:26:09.200 than the Russians do. But they're not going to have more resolve. The Russians have tremendous resolve

00:26:15.120 because they're facing an existential threat. And by the way, I didn't fully develop the existential

00:26:22.400 threat that they're facing. It's not only that we're interested in making Ukraine a Western bulwark

00:26:28.720 on their border. You understand that once the war started, we said, this is mainly the Americans,

00:26:38.000 that what we're going to do is we're going to defeat the Ukrainian, defeat the Russian army in Ukraine.

00:26:44.720 We're going to wreck its economy. We're going to affect regime change. We're going to put Putin on

00:26:53.280 trial. And now there's even talk in the West about breaking apart Russia the way the Soviet Union

00:27:00.160 broke apart in December 1991. This is a serious threat. This is an existential threat. The Russians are

00:27:08.960 going to fight like wild dogs to make sure that this doesn't happen. We're threatening the survival

00:27:14.240 of this state. And when the great power's survival is threatened, you do not want to underestimate the

00:27:21.760 price that they will be willing to pay to prevent that outcome. So in terms of the balance of resolve,

00:27:29.600 I fully understand and I can sympathize with the Ukrainians for wanting to win this war and to

00:27:37.840 hang in there, given what's happening to their country. I understand that. But the Russians,

00:27:43.200 I believe, have every bit as much resolve as the Ukrainians do. This is the basis of my conclusion that

00:27:52.320 Russia will ultimately win the war. So Mearsheimer says that there will be no military victory for the

00:27:59.040 West. But how can there be a diplomatic deal? How can people split the difference? Either you have

00:28:05.760 some of Ukraine or you don't. Here, listen to Mearsheimer say that even though the military win

00:28:11.920 is elusive, how do you get a diplomatic win? How do you get a deal at all? Here's Mearsheimer.

00:28:17.040 There's no deal to be had here. Now you're saying to yourself, why is John saying that? Two reasons.

00:28:24.720 First of all, there's no territorial compromise, one. And number two, there is no compromise

00:28:32.000 on the question of whether Ukraine is neutral or not. Let me unpack that for you. Just on territory.

00:28:39.840 Unsurprisingly, Ukraine wants all of its territory back. Maybe in an ideal world, the Ukrainians would be

00:28:49.520 willing to give up Crimea. But they're certainly not going to be willing to give up those four oblasts

00:28:56.960 that the Russians have annexed. They are now part of Russia. And the Russians have made it unequivocally

00:29:03.840 clear they are not giving those oblasts back. And you can't blame the Russians any more than you can

00:29:11.680 blame the Ukrainians for wanting them back. The Russians are fighting a major war.

00:29:16.400 They think their survival is at stake. Those four oblasts really matter for strategic reasons.

00:29:24.160 Not to mention the fact that they're filled with Russians, ethnic Russians, and Russian speakers.

00:29:30.320 And if the Ukrainian government, which is now on a tirade against anything Russian,

00:29:35.440 gets that territory back, you've got the Donbass problem back again in spades this time.

00:29:41.280 So the Russians are not going to give up the territory they've taken. And the Ukrainians are

00:29:47.840 not going to be satisfied until they get that territory back.

00:29:53.600 And if I'm right that the Russians are going to take more territory further to the West,

00:30:02.480 they're not going to give that back. And the Ukrainians are going to want it back.

00:30:06.080 How do you solve that problem? There's no solution. You can't square that circle.

00:30:13.920 Then there's the question of neutrality. The Russians do not want Ukraine to be alive

00:30:24.480 with the West, whether it's a de jure relationship with NATO or a de facto relationship with NATO.

00:30:34.080 That is unacceptable. They want a neutral Ukraine. As I said to you, if they can't get that,

00:30:41.600 they'll turn it into a dysfunctional rump state that will never qualify to come into NATO or into

00:30:47.120 the EU, which is what they're doing now. Well, if you're Ukraine, do you want to be neutral?

00:30:56.720 You can't protect yourself. There's no question. I gave you the population figures, right? There's no

00:31:02.720 way Ukraine can protect itself. If the West wasn't bankrolling Ukraine today, Ukraine would have lost

00:31:09.280 long ago. This next point is a very important one. In Canada, if you are a Russian anything, a Russian

00:31:16.880 athlete, a Russian musician, you are called upon to denounce yourself and denounce your country,

00:31:23.680 or you will be kicked out of a sporting competition. You know, I suppose there's some Russian

00:31:29.360 restaurants. I wonder if they've changed the name of their restaurant. I mean, there's such a

00:31:34.000 hyper nationalism and I'm going to say Russophobia. And on the other side, too, I mean, Russia itself,

00:31:40.880 nationalism is inflamed against Ukraine. And I mean, we see that here in Canada.

00:31:46.400 And by the way, besides the hyper nationalism, how do you build trust when, as I just showed you,

00:31:55.040 Angela Merkel and Francois Hollande said the whole negotiations last time were just to buy time to

00:32:00.720 rearm Ukraine? Here's Meersheimer. I think this is the most depressing part of his whole speech.

00:32:06.320 He says Ukraine cannot win the war, but there's no way to even win the peace either. Take a look.

00:32:12.640 Look, just two other very quick points on this. Remember, I talked about the territorial problem

00:32:18.320 as an obstacle, and I talked about the neutrality problem as an obstacle. Those are the two big

00:32:23.760 obstacles. There are two other obstacles. One is the hyper nationalism that is now at play.

00:32:30.560 If you read the papers over the past few weeks, the Ukrainians are going to enormous lengths to

00:32:38.640 de-Russify Ukraine. It's really quite amazing what's happening here. And if you look at what the

00:32:46.000 Russians are doing in the areas that they're annexing, what they're doing is issuing Russian passports,

00:32:54.320 asking people to use the ruble. They're making them Russian areas, right? So you have this growing

00:33:01.680 hatred between the Russians and the Ukrainians, not only inside Ukraine, but pre-2014 Ukraine,

00:33:10.160 but also between the two countries. This happens when major powers go to war against each other,

00:33:16.640 right? Hyper nationalism kicks in very quickly. But that makes it very hard to cut a deal.

00:33:24.480 And furthermore, there's very little trust here because Angela Merkel and President Poroshenko and

00:33:38.560 President Zelensky and the French President Francois Hollande have all made it clear that they misled

00:33:48.400 Putin in the negotiations on the Minsk II agreement. Putin was deeply committed to making Minsk II work.

00:33:58.480 Putin did not want to have to invade Ukraine. This gets back to the first point. He had no interest

00:34:06.400 whatsoever in invading Ukraine. He wanted Minsk II to work. But those

00:34:15.280 other individuals who participated in the negotiations with him have now made it clear

00:34:22.240 they were just stringing the Russians along so that Ukraine could build up its economy and build up its

00:34:29.200 military. So what kind of an example, what kind of a template are we possibly looking at? Well,

00:34:35.200 he gives the unhappy example of the 38th parallel between North and South Korea, that technically the

00:34:41.200 war never stopped. It just sort of froze. Here's that comparison. You're not going to get a meaningful

00:34:47.120 peace agreement. You may get a frozen conflict. This may look like the 38th parallel in Korea,

00:34:54.560 right? But you're not going to shut this one down. We have really opened Pandora's box here.

00:35:01.840 No, the future that he sees is really a return to the Cold War, where Russia interferes with

00:35:10.240 and meddles not just in Ukraine, but also in all Western relations, undermines. And of course, the same

00:35:17.440 thing, I don't know if you saw this the other day, an enormous dam was blown up, flooding huge parts of

00:35:24.000 the territory. And America immediately said, Russia did that. But I think that's about as plausible as Russia

00:35:30.080 blowing up its own pipeline or Russia blowing up its strategic bridge in Ukraine. It doesn't benefit

00:35:37.360 Russia to blow up its own dam. But by breaking the dam, it flooded Russian defenses and may cut off

00:35:44.880 water to key industries and populations. So I think that that kind of sabotage and cloak and dagger

00:35:53.440 fighting. I think that we haven't really seen Russia do that to the West. Thank God. But I fear it may

00:36:02.560 come. Mearsheimer doesn't say that would happen, but he says at least political interference would happen.

00:36:09.360 You take a look.

00:36:10.320 I'll come to the final subject I want to talk about, which is the future of relations between

00:36:15.760 Ukraine, the West and Russia. These relations are poisonous. The Russophobia in the United States

00:36:25.360 is off the charts. The Russophobia here in Europe is off the charts. The commitment to defending Ukraine

00:36:34.560 here in Europe and in the United States is astounding. Many, many people are deeply committed to

00:36:48.640 helping Ukraine and they despise Putin and they despise Russia. In a way, almost anything Russian at this

00:36:58.160 point in time is despised. It's really quite remarkable. So you have these poisonous relations.

00:37:04.560 Do you think they're going to go away? You think relations between Russia and Germany are going to

00:37:10.640 improve over time? I don't think so. I don't think so. Because here's the problem. The West is going to

00:37:20.480 remain committed to rump Ukraine. Let's assume you get a rump state, right? And let's assume that you get a

00:37:28.080 frozen conflict. The West is not going to bail out on Ukraine. We're going to continue to support Ukraine.

00:37:36.000 We're going to do everything we can to support Ukraine and undermine Putin or his successor or, more

00:37:42.080 generally, the Russians. The Americans are certainly going to do this. You can rest assured of that, right?

00:37:48.720 You Europeans might not be so enthusiastic about that, but the Americans will go to great lengths to cause

00:37:54.480 trouble with the Russians, right? You'll support the Ukrainians. And this will, of course, anger the

00:38:01.680 Russians. And then you understand the Russians have a deep-seated interest in interfering in the politics

00:38:08.400 of the West. They have a deep-seated interest in interfering in elections to make sure that people

00:38:15.520 get elected who are sympathetic to Russia. They'll exploit the tensions between countries like Germany and

00:38:22.640 Poland, Germany and France. They'll exploit tensions between the United States and Europe. And there's

00:38:30.560 real potential for trouble there. And of course, what happens when America and Europe want to freeze

00:38:37.200 out Russia? Well, who's going to take the place of each side? Who is Europe going to do business with?

00:38:44.240 Well, China. And who's Russia going to do business with? Well, China. Here's how China wins every way.

00:38:51.360 Let's talk a little bit about China. Given that Europe is suffering because its economic ties with Russia

00:39:04.960 have been cut. Europe has a deep-seated interest in making sure it has very good economic relations with

00:39:15.680 China. Just very important. The Americans, on the other hand, are waging an economic war against China.

00:39:27.280 You understand we're in a security competition. We mean in the United States. We're in a security

00:39:31.680 competition with China. It has two dimensions. It has a military dimension, containment, and it has an

00:39:38.160 economic dimension. And the economic dimension involves sophisticated or cutting-edge technologies.

00:39:45.120 We in the United States are scared stiff that the Chinese are going to beat us in terms of developing

00:39:51.120 sophisticated technologies. Right? So what we're doing now is we're trying to reduce

00:39:57.200 the inflow of technologies on the cutting edge into China. The Chinese fully understand this and they're

00:40:07.840 looking for other countries to trade with and to get sophisticated technologies or technologies that

00:40:14.480 help them develop those sophisticated technologies and just help their economy grow. And they're going to

00:40:20.160 look to Europe and Europe is going to look to China because you're going to need trade with China. China's

00:40:26.080 going to need trade with you. And that's going to cause real tensions between the United States

00:40:34.720 and Europe. And as you know already, the United States has not been hurt very much by this war

00:40:41.040 compared to how badly Europe and countries like Germany have been hurt by this war. And in a world where the

00:40:46.640 United States is telling you, you should curtail your trade with China, that's not going to make you

00:40:53.520 very happy. Right? But this is just another opportunity for the Russians to exploit these

00:41:00.160 cleavages that exist. You know, here's one of the final things Mearsheimer says. He mentions the two

00:41:05.280 historically neutral countries, Finland and Sweden, joined NATO. And he says, if you look at that part of

00:41:12.640 the world now, Russia is again surrounded by NATO countries. And I'm worried about it. And Mearsheimer

00:41:19.520 is too. For years, Sweden and Finland could say, well, we're neutral. We're Western oriented, but we're

00:41:25.440 not militarized and we're not set against Russia. And now they are. And for what? As a provocation?

00:41:32.640 I am genuinely worried. And like Mearsheimer, I think that Ukraine gave up its only trump card,

00:41:39.440 its nukes. And so it's relying on the West to protect it. But the West cannot protect it because

00:41:45.520 the West cannot get into a shooting war with Russia. Mearsheimer is right on that. You cannot fight

00:41:51.360 with a great power with nukes and win. You cannot. Both sides can lose, but one side cannot win. Just one

00:41:58.240 final point on this. A lot of people think it's wonderful that Finland and Sweden have joined NATO.

00:42:07.360 I think this is the wrong way to think about this. The Russians already feel like they're being

00:42:13.840 encircled by NATO. The Russians will tell you, just look at a map of Europe today. Look at all the

00:42:20.560 countries that belong to NATO and look at how close they are to us. So let's add two more, Finland

00:42:29.040 and Sweden. And then let's look at the Baltic Sea. And you know the Russians care very much about the

00:42:34.320 Baltic Sea, especially because of Kaliningrad. They care. The Baltic Sea is surrounded by NATO countries

00:42:42.560 now that Finland and Sweden are in. Just take a look at a map sometime. And then even more importantly

00:42:49.440 is the Arctic. All that ice is melting. That's opening up all sorts of economic opportunities

00:42:56.960 in the Arctic. And it's presenting strategic problems. There are eight countries, eight countries

00:43:04.720 that are geographically located in the Arctic. Seven of them now belong to NATO. One. The other one?

00:43:14.000 Russia. One versus seven. And you know, by the way, the Russians are now approaching the Chinese

00:43:20.960 about getting the Chinese to work with them in the Arctic. And the Chinese, of course,

00:43:26.720 are very willing to do this. Right? But the other way of thinking about this is the Russians are

00:43:33.520 outnumbered seven to one. So if a dispute comes up in the Arctic, crisis breaks out in the Arctic,

00:43:40.960 and they're outnumbered seven to one. And most of their conventional forces are in Europe,

00:43:48.320 in Ukraine. I think what they're going to do is rely more on nuclear weapons up there. Right?

00:43:55.600 So you just want to remember, when you're dealing with a great power like Russia, and you threaten its

00:44:04.160 survival, you're pushing that great power into a situation where it's going to pursue risky strategies.

00:44:14.240 And this is a great power that has thousands of nuclear warheads aimed at us. And the idea that

00:44:24.640 you can back them into a corner, and you can threaten to push them off a cliff, is for me,

00:44:32.640 an incredibly foolish way to think about doing business.

00:44:36.400 So what do you think of that? I showed you a lot of clips. It's hard to find that speech online,

00:44:42.080 but I've showed you a lot of elements from it. One thing that made me ask myself,

00:44:49.040 when I think of how Justin Trudeau, Melanie Jolie, Chrystia Freeland, Joe Biden, every Western

00:44:55.040 politician, every TV pundit, is what is the end game here? Not just for Ukraine, which obviously is

00:45:02.240 the proxy here. It's the cannon fodder. But what's the end game for NATO, for the West, for us? I mean,

00:45:08.320 misery and loss for Ukrainians. But for the West, too. All the enormous effort to end the Cold War

00:45:17.680 and warm things up, and we're back in it. Again, what exactly is a win when our leaders say

00:45:24.000 they're with Ukraine till the end? What end are they talking about? I mean, like this.

00:45:29.600 Mr. Putin, we will stand with Ukraine as long as it takes, as much as it takes.

00:45:36.880 For as long as it takes, we will stand shoulder to shoulder together with our European partners

00:45:43.680 for Ukraine. Canadians know that in order to get to lasting peace, we need to make sure that we

00:45:48.960 continue to arm Ukraine. And when doing so, there's still a lot to do. And for sure we will be doing

00:45:55.280 more. That's what I can tell you right now. It's not about doing Ukraine favors

00:46:01.120 that we're talking about. Supplying Ukraine with weapons, and as President Zelensky very crucially

00:46:07.360 pointed out, supplying Ukraine with the money it needs to win the war, is ultimately in our own self

00:46:15.440 interest. One thing where we have some real practical levers is we can help Ukraine win

00:46:23.600 clearly, definitively. And if we do that, if that happens this year, you know it as well as I do,

00:46:32.400 Fareed. That would be a huge boost to the global economy. What exactly is a win? Well, I think for

00:46:40.800 the soldiers and the civilian population in Ukraine, part of win is simply a ceasefire. But

00:46:46.640 apparently the United States is opposed to that. And let's remember, this war could actually end

00:46:53.200 right now, if Russia would withdraw its troops from the country. We hope that President Xi will

00:46:59.840 press President Putin to cease bombing Ukrainian cities, hospitals, and schools to halt the war crimes

00:47:06.240 and atrocities, and to withdraw its troops. But we are concerned that, instead, China will reiterate

00:47:13.120 calls for a ceasefire that leaves Russian forces inside Ukraine's sovereign territory. Any ceasefire

00:47:20.400 that does not address the removal of Russian forces from Ukraine would effectively ratify Russia's illegal

00:47:26.640 conquests, enabling Russia to entrench its positions and then to restart the war at a more advantageous time

00:47:35.680 for them. This would, the world should not be fooled by any tactical move by Russia, aided by China,

00:47:43.600 or any other country to freeze the war on its terms without any viable pathway to restore Ukraine's

00:47:49.520 sovereignty and territorial integrity. Any such attempt, any such attempt would violate the UN charter and

00:47:55.520 defy the will of the 141 countries that demanded just weeks ago at the UN General Assembly that Russia

00:48:03.040 immediately, completely, and unconditionally withdraw from Ukraine. Efforts to end this conflict must

00:48:09.760 take Ukraine's position into account. And so we encourage President Xi to play a constructive role

00:48:14.880 by speaking with President Zelensky, which he has not done since Russia launched this invasion. Because

00:48:20.640 China, quite frankly, we believe, should hear directly from the Ukrainians and not just from the Russians. And we

00:48:26.720 encourage President Xi to press President Putin directly on the need to respect Ukraine's sovereignty and

00:48:31.840 territorial integrity. The world and China's neighbors will certainly be watching closely.

00:48:36.800 Yeah, welcome to the new Cold War. It hasn't been too long since we were in the last one.

00:48:43.120 Stay with us for more.

00:48:44.080 Well, the national media is seized with the issue of Chinese interference in the Canadian political system, but

00:49:02.480 it wasn't always that way. Even though the news, many of the facts have been out there for years, it really

00:49:10.640 wasn't something that the media party dug into. You might recall that three years ago I actually wrote

00:49:16.400 a best-selling book about it called China Virus. I wrote it in the early months of the pandemic when

00:49:22.640 we were still figuring things out. Of course, the pandemic itself and the government's authoritarian

00:49:27.200 response to it was part of that book, but another part. And it was sort of the wordplay that the real China's virus

00:49:33.920 was not the coronavirus, but something far more persistent and perhaps dangerous, namely the

00:49:40.160 Communist Party of China and Justin Trudeau's deep affection for it. In the book, I didn't do any

00:49:46.240 primary research myself. By that I mean I didn't go to China, I didn't pour through records, and I

00:49:51.520 certainly don't speak Chinese, so I couldn't track it in the native language. But I collected all the stories

00:49:57.920 that had been reported before and put it all in one place, and it was rather dramatic when you add it

00:50:02.080 all up. Well, in the last few months so many more details have come out about explicit interference

00:50:08.880 in our elections. CSIS, which was reporting this to the Prime Minister's office, was ignored. One

00:50:15.280 hilarious statement the other day, the senior officials in our national security infrastructure

00:50:21.040 said they were on vacation, so they simply missed it. It was appalling. And this has all come to a

00:50:26.640 four politically, because Justin Trudeau has appointed a long-time family friend, David Johnson,

00:50:33.040 the former governor general, who himself has deep China connections. And that's the crazy thing,

00:50:39.120 is that in Canada, so many senior politicians make ties with the Chinese Communist Party when they're in

00:50:46.880 office, and almost as a reward for their good service, get huge financial outcomes. Let me give you a

00:50:53.040 quick example before we move on to our guest today. Jean Chrétien retired as Prime Minister after a very

00:50:59.600 lengthy term, you might recall. But within weeks of resigning as Prime Minister, he announced he was

00:51:05.520 going to work for China in China. He still lives in Canada, but he was going to work for China and

00:51:12.480 lobbying in China. Don't tell me that was only conceived and arranged after he left office. Of course,

00:51:19.200 he was contemplating that and arranging that while he was still PM. You may know that his son-in-law

00:51:24.800 is the head of the Desmarais family conglomerate Power Corp, major early political and financial

00:51:31.280 investors in China. And so it is with Justin Trudeau, whose own brother, Sasha Trudeau,

00:51:36.640 Alexander Trudeau, published a pro-China book through the Chinese Communist Party. There's a million

00:51:42.800 publishers he could have published himself, but he chose to do so with the government of China.

00:51:47.920 But all this time, my interest in this subject, my own small book on this subject, were limited by

00:51:55.360 the fact that I do not know Chinese. And I found it difficult to find someone out there who could

00:52:02.400 understand, read, research in the Chinese language, and yet who was not afraid to come on TV to talk

00:52:09.040 about it. Over the years, I'd spoken to democracy activists, but they were terrified that they would be

00:52:14.160 punished both here in Canada and their family back in China. Well, I am delighted to say that after a

00:52:22.000 long search, I found someone who I actually knew as a friend who was doing the kind of work that we

00:52:28.080 were looking to do for years. And she's been doing it on Twitter, tweeting up a storm about it, but not

00:52:34.160 just her opinions. This is the most important thing. Rooted in facts, rooted in evidence often taken from

00:52:41.280 Chinese language media, not just media, but social media apps like WeChat that are controlled and run

00:52:47.840 by Beijing, where the pro CCP messaging is spread to the Chinese diaspora here in Canada. Without

00:52:56.640 further ado, let me introduce you to the newest contributor to Rebel News, Andrea Lee, better known

00:53:03.040 on Twitter as Andy Lee. Andy, great to see you, and thanks for joining us.

00:53:07.520 Hi. Hi. It's very good to be here. Thanks. Thanks. I'm very excited to be a part of the team and to be

00:53:12.400 part of this project, especially, you know, my children are Chinese Canadians. So, you know,

00:53:19.440 this diaspora is very, you know, near and dear to my heart. There's a lot of things that are going on

00:53:24.320 right now in our country. And this has been going on for a long time. This isn't new, like you pointed out,

00:53:29.040 it's longstanding, this interference. But, you know, it's really, really been brought into the

00:53:34.960 light. And a lot of things have gone on for a very, very long period of time that deserve

00:53:40.000 further examination. And so I've, you know, I've created a very good network. And a lot of them

00:53:46.240 are Chinese Canadians who are within that diaspora. And, you know, we began researching articles and

00:53:53.040 and things like that. And so I don't do this alone. I want to point that out. I do have people

00:54:00.160 who don't like to be named for obvious reasons, because they're concerned about backlash.

00:54:04.560 But I'm very, very proud to, you know, have them assist me when I research and look for things

00:54:10.880 and put that forward so that people can understand what's been going on in the background for so long,

00:54:16.240 because there really isn't a good coverage or examination of what's going on in our foreign

00:54:21.840 language news outlets. And there's a lot going on.

00:54:25.200 Well, what I really appreciate about your work, and I've been following it very closely on Twitter,

00:54:29.520 you have over 100,000 followers, and I think there's a reason for that, is because with your team,

00:54:35.120 you do read the Chinese language social media in this country, which is full of the collusion

00:54:42.400 between the Liberal Party, and frankly, some Conservatives, and the Chinese Communist Party. And it's

00:54:47.600 there in plain sight. It's just, you know, Bob Fyfe and Steve Chase of the Globe and Mail. I don't

00:54:52.640 think either of them speak Chinese. I'm sure they have some sources too. But every day, you've been

00:54:58.880 breaking news on Twitter, and it's just by digging into these social media accounts. I think it's amazing.

00:55:04.880 So we're delighted that you will be not just tweeting about this stuff now, but you will be publishing

00:55:10.320 it on Rebel News and doing interviews about it, and hopefully doing videos and things like that.

00:55:16.640 As much as you have, and you've already, in just literally the last two days,

00:55:20.800 done two great reports. The first was when David Johnston appeared before the House of

00:55:26.240 Commons Committee, saying he was completely independent. And you go through his,

00:55:31.360 you know, I think how he himself has been colonized by the CCP. And you have a new one. And I just want

00:55:39.600 to focus on this one. The headline for your latest is Trudeau's special rapporteur considers China

00:55:48.000 his home away from home. David Johnson has made more than a dozen trips to China, saying he became

00:55:54.560 attached to Nanjing during his 40-year relationship with the communist nation. Tell me some of the

00:56:02.240 things you found out. I mean, that is an enormous number of trips to China. Tell me more of the

00:56:08.480 things that I think if the Canadian public knew about David Johnson and his ties to China,

00:56:14.240 they would be shocked that Trudeau appointed him to investigate ties to China.

00:56:19.520 Yeah. You know, it was unfortunate that none of this really came out in committee yesterday. They

00:56:25.440 did a lot of examination of his personal ties to Justin Trudeau and Justin Trudeau's family and the

00:56:30.320 foundation. But they really didn't, you know, go into his ties in China. You know, maybe that was a

00:56:38.720 maybe considered a no fly zone to them. But I do think it is important because he does have very,

00:56:44.160 very deep historical ties to the country. Now, that's not necessarily a nefarious thing,

00:56:51.440 right? But, you know, the depth of his ties bring into question whether I think he's able to examine

00:56:58.320 this issue independently and in an unbiased manner. So we know, you know, he's visited China dozens of

00:57:05.600 times. You know, this is since, you know, earlier on in the 80s, maybe during a different period in

00:57:13.680 China where, you know, Deng Xiaoping was, you know, in power and things were maybe looking a little bit

00:57:22.320 different for the country. There was supposed to be a period of opening up, which never was

00:57:26.800 unfortunately realized. So, but, you know, he did receive numerous doctorates and scholarships

00:57:34.640 and his daughters attended university in China, numerous institutions in China. And, you know,

00:57:41.560 he does, he has, this isn't the first time he's said it, where he's in China saying, you know,

00:57:45.840 this is like my home away from home. It seems like David Johnson has a lot of homes away from home in

00:57:51.000 China. Actually, this isn't, like I said, this isn't the first instance where he said it.

00:57:55.680 Um, so Nianjing was significant though, because that was the first official diplomatic visit

00:58:02.480 between Canada and China after Xi Jinping was elected Supreme Leader. Um, so his, um, you know,

00:58:09.600 his visit, uh, was of, you know, great significance. And, um, as well, uh, he did forge when he was the

00:58:18.820 president of Waterloo, he did forge ties with Confucius Institutes, um, and Confucius Institutes

00:58:25.420 were supposed to be Chinese learning centers. But, uh, you know, shortly after he established

00:58:30.220 those in 2006. So way, way, way back. Um, but by 2009, our own, um, national security officials,

00:58:38.060 uh, um, Michelle Junot-Katsuya for one of them, uh, actually wrote a book about, um, you know, concerns

00:58:44.140 that they were national security threats. And we know that most Confucius Institutes have been ordered

00:58:48.940 out, um, of higher learning institutions because they are considered to be sort of a long arm of

00:58:54.300 the PRC and exerting soft power and things like that. So they've been ordered out of the institutes.

00:58:59.020 So David Johnson was integral in establishing, um, you know, this institute within the university

00:59:04.860 that he ran. Um, so, you know, there's, there's details like that, that were missed, um, and not

00:59:10.860 examined in committee that I think are important. Um, you know, he does, it was really hard to watch

00:59:17.740 committee to be honest. Um, because like I said, I do think that he did some groundbreaking work

00:59:22.620 and you can't just not have these, these institutional ties, right? It's very, very easy

00:59:27.660 to say, no, you know, we don't do business with China, but I mean, realistically speaking,

00:59:31.820 it's a much more complex problem than that, but it's sort of like, how do we distance ourselves

00:59:35.900 to protect ourselves and our institutions and our democratic processes? And I'm not sure that David

00:59:40.940 Johnson, given the, the rosy colored glasses he wears when viewing the country. And it's very obvious.

00:59:46.780 He's, um, very unapologetic about those ties, very proud with them. Um, I'm not sure that he's the

00:59:53.820 correct person to look at this through a realistic lens of how Canada Chinese relationships and indeed,

01:00:01.020 you know, Chinese relationships with other countries are in the world right now, as opposed to how they

01:00:06.380 were when he, you know, got to know the country, uh, intimately and became involved and obviously

01:00:12.460 developed a very, very close affection with the country. So there's a lot of questions there and

01:00:17.660 that, that wasn't touched on yesterday. I think, you know, I think it was Horatio Nelson, if I'm not

01:00:23.660 mixing up my history, who was blind in one eye. And, uh, when he wanted to disobey an order,

01:00:29.020 he put his telescope to the blind eye and said, I don't see anything. And you know, it was, it was a

01:00:34.540 deliberate way of saying, I'm, I'm going to ignore the order and proceed in the face of it. And I think that

01:00:40.860 David Johnson, um, in, as the special rapporteur was hired specifically because Trudeau knew he would

01:00:48.380 turn a blind eye to the things that he should be investigating because he was, his work would

01:00:55.500 probably fall under an investigation. It really is like OJ saying he would hunt for the real killers.

01:01:02.540 And if you think I exaggerate, look at these outrageous statements he made to the, to the

01:01:08.140 commons committee where he, he acknowledged, he didn't, uh, examine all the facts. He acknowledged

01:01:17.820 that sure, he may be in a parent of conflict of interest, but he forgives himself. Just look at this

01:01:23.020 bundle of hubris. The guy's not even faking it. He's admitting that he's turning a blind eye. Take a look

01:01:30.780 at this. Foreign interference is not usually embodied in discreet, one-off pieces of intelligence.

01:01:38.220 It cannot be dealt with on a one-off, look what I found basis. The limited leaked intelligence and

01:01:45.500 subsequent reporting have led to misapprehensions relating to incidents that are alleged to have

01:01:50.700 occurred in the 2019 and 2021 elections. Moreover, I have found no examples of ministers, the prime minister,

01:02:00.620 or their offices, knowingly or negligently failing to act on intelligence, advice or recommendations

01:02:08.220 on the issues I have investigated related to the 2019 and 2021 elections. However, I did find that

01:02:16.060 there are significant and unacceptable gaps in the machinery of government. Public inquiries on the

01:02:22.860 public inquiries act are very difficult tools to use for something whose job is to shed light on

01:02:29.260 situations, particularly situations of negligent responsibility and so on. Because they are

01:02:37.020 led by lawyers with cross-examination. They have difficulty getting at

01:02:45.820 information that is classified. Can't do that in public.

01:02:50.380 public are very expensive, are very time consuming, and often do not result in providing the light. What we have

01:02:58.780 talked to do, of course, in the remaining months of our mandate is to do exactly that, to have public

01:03:06.060 hearings on matters that are not part of the classified information. And I think we may recall an earlier

01:03:14.620 question that the other inquiry was the McDonald's Commission that led into the creation of the CSIS Act to take over the

01:03:22.060 responsibilities for forward interference from the RCMP. That commission was five years in its work to completion.

01:03:31.180 Madam Chair, I'm rather blown away there when we see that independent public inquiry can be costly.

01:03:41.500 What is the price tag on democracy? What is the value of democracy? We're here. We've got two

01:03:48.700 parties that are neck and neck in the polls where certain ridings can decide on the color of the government.

01:03:54.700 And now I'm being told that it can be costly to shed light on this because people, of course,

01:03:59.420 agree upon the fact that the only way in which we can shed light in this situation is by holding an

01:04:03.820 independent public inquiry. Yes, it can take time, but we can live for a long time in the darkness if

01:04:09.500 we don't do anything. And that's not a better approach. So when Mr. Johnson, full respect of

01:04:14.620 course for Mr. Johnson, but when he says to me that there are certain elements that are classified

01:04:19.660 that we cannot bring out into the daylight, would that be worse where we had three secret

01:04:28.860 services involved in the Aurora inquiry that were actually involved in this inquiry. So why would

01:04:33.660 it be worse this time compared to what we had with the Aurora case inquiry? Andy, I have a theory and

01:04:41.100 it's a terrible theory and it's speculation and I'm trying to be a mind reader and that's never a good

01:04:45.340 idea. But why would an 81 year old man who has had an illustrious career of public service, he's been

01:04:51.500 the president of an outstanding university, he was governor general, he was a high-minded guy, he's 81,

01:04:58.620 he's got kids, he's got grandkids. This is, you know, the time to be on a beach, visit the grandkids,

01:05:08.380 think about a legacy and why would he engage in such a brutal and obvious cover-up for Trudeau and the

01:05:17.100 only, I mean, he's destroying his reputation. He's murdering his reputation every day. The only

01:05:24.140 way this makes sense to me, Andy, and again I'm speculating, is that he's doing this because he's

01:05:29.980 worried what might come out will actually tarnish him more than his cover-up. It's not just Trudeau he's

01:05:36.380 protecting, it's the entire Trudeau CCP nexus and he has been part of that. My theory is that David Johnson

01:05:46.060 is doing this last errand not just for Trudeau, but for himself to cover his own tracks. Is there

01:05:52.460 any evidence of that? Well, I mean, I always felt that the reason that Justin Trudeau chose to do a,

01:06:00.140 you know, a closed-door private, you know, investigation as opposed to a blown-open public

01:06:06.940 inquiry is because he got to control the mandates and the terms and conditions. And so the terms and

01:06:13.580 conditions and the scope of that were not broad. They were very, very limited. You know, the report

01:06:18.620 was mostly based upon recent allegations that we've seen in media and mainstream media. And it was only

01:06:27.420 extended back to the 2019 election. But anybody who knows anything knows that this has been going on far,

01:06:33.580 far longer. And that, yes, David Johnson, you know, was integral to forging some of the ties that maybe

01:06:40.860 would come under examination. Should we broaden the scope of this investigation and take a more

01:06:47.340 serious, I mean, this is just a scratch-the-surface kind of report, right? I honestly, I feel like it's

01:06:53.340 kind of like an insert your own country here. It's very blanket. It's very generalized. You know, there's,

01:06:59.420 there's not a lot of specifics in it. Maybe he could or could not disclose those because of national security.

01:07:05.820 But, again, if you sort of expanded the mandate and took it into a public inquiry where, you know, we could broaden

01:07:16.860 the scope of what we're looking at. And foreign interference is not easy to detect. Often it overlaps with

01:07:24.780 legal activities. And that's by design, right? That's, that's how they function. So Johnson may have been part of,

01:07:32.780 you know, what people like to say. And this was actually, um, testified about in the House of

01:07:37.420 Commons a few days ago by Dean Baxendale is elite capture and elite capture is one of those things

01:07:43.100 where you woo politicians, you treat them like rock stars. Um, you make them feel like they're part of

01:07:48.700 the family and, um, you know, you welcome them and, uh, you know, uh, give them gifts and things like

01:07:55.660 that, honorary doctorates, um, special privileges while you're trying to further, you know, your country's

01:08:01.500 business interests. So that's a very, you know, a method that China has been very, very effective

01:08:06.460 in using. So I would argue that probably David Johnson is a victim of elite capture along with

01:08:12.780 a lot of people. Um, and you know, he was right there with John McCallum during those years. Of

01:08:18.460 course, we know that John McCallum, uh, was, was kicked out. Uh, he had some very interesting

01:08:24.700 views on the Meng affair, um, taking her side, saying that she had a very, very strong case

01:08:30.540 against her detention. So, uh, John McCallum had to go and disgrace, but I mean, John Callum was

01:08:35.740 very, very openly quoting, quoting the Chinese communist party and, and, um, you know, those votes,

01:08:42.140 uh, you know, during Justin Trudeau's campaign. So I do think that if we expanded that, that scope

01:08:47.180 and we decided to go with a public inquiry, that all of those other things might come into play.

01:08:51.580 And it's important that those things do come into play because that's how we got to this

01:08:56.300 level of, you know, infiltration. You remind me of that quote where McCallum

01:09:01.420 said his China policy was more, more, more. Yes, yes, yes. Whatever here, let's play. So he was

01:09:07.980 basically asked, what would he do with China? And his answer was whatever they want. Hey, let me close

01:09:13.100 on one more thing. And, and I learned this from you. And, and like I say, you are, you have your views

01:09:19.820 on things, which I appreciate, but you're, you're digging into sources. And this is what I'd like.

01:09:24.460 I'd like to direct folks to your written stories on our website. I mean, you're tweeting these things,

01:09:29.740 which is where I discovered them, but now you've got two stories on the website. One about, uh,

01:09:35.180 Johnson's appearance before the House of Commons, the other about, um, Johnson considering China as

01:09:39.900 home away from home. They're linked to the primary sources in the Chinese language. And I learned from

01:09:44.780 you that he is sort of given an honorary Chinese name and China does this a lot. I mean, they,

01:09:50.620 they gave Trump sort of two nicknames. One was uncle Donald and the other was Donald the strong.

01:09:57.020 And, and it's not MAGA that's claiming that that's from the New York times. They're saying that's,

01:10:02.060 that's what the Chinese said about Trump, even though they didn't like him on many things.

01:10:06.380 David Johnson has been granted a nickname, Jiangshan, which sounds like Johnson, Jiangshan. What

01:10:15.500 does Jiangshan mean on the face of it? And what's sort of the deeper meaning? What is David Johnson's

01:10:22.620 official Chinese nickname that was bestowed upon him by the other side? What does it mean?

01:10:27.900 Yeah. So, uh, the, the literal translation is kind of like rivers and mountains and it's a,

01:10:33.900 it's a, it's a area in China. It's a region in China. So, um, you know, it's very, very lovely

01:10:39.180 name that you think is peaceful, but I, I did a little bit more digging and there's a lot of fables

01:10:44.060 actually, um, centered around this, this name, Jiangshan. Um, and you know, I, I found out that

01:10:50.780 there's another translation, which literally means the regime. Um, and so this is, you know, what, um,

01:10:57.820 you know, uh, Chinese Canadians take this name to represent is that he is literally sort of an

01:11:04.460 agent of the regime. Um, so it's not as attractive, uh, once you actually learn that there's

01:11:11.660 multiple ways of, of interpreting this. Um, and so the way that that sort of goes into

01:11:17.100 the regime is that it's sort of like the regime that looks over your property, your

01:11:21.900 rivers and your mountains that control, um, your, your mountains. And there are fables

01:11:27.020 and parables, um, based on this. So he probably thinks it's a, you know, it's a cute little pet

01:11:33.100 nickname that was given to him. Um, but it does have, have definitely other meanings, um, to, uh,

01:11:40.540 the Chinese people. Basically it's saying that he's a leader of, of, you know, the party.

01:11:46.300 Mm-hmm. So I think that says a lot. Um, of course, I'll never forget Chrystia Freeland

01:11:53.660 delighting in Trudeau's nickname, Little Potato. Look how excited she was. We'll play a clip of that.

01:12:01.340 Yeah. Well, Little Potato and Jiang Shan. Um, I think, uh, the Chinese know who the real boss

01:12:07.180 is. Andy Lee, great to catch up with you. Thank you for your research. Uh, we'll publish your work,

01:12:13.260 as you know, you and I have talked about it. Whenever the spirit moves you, when you, whenever

01:12:16.620 you have stories rooted in this factual research, I think that any one of your stories could appear

01:12:23.420 on the front page of the Globe and Mail. You have that kind of new and relevant content, your access

01:12:28.700 to Chinese language media directly and through people helping you navigate there, I think is

01:12:33.500 very useful. And I think it's important work. So thanks for doing it with Rebel News and we'll look

01:12:38.380 forward to talking again next week. I hope I say next week because I, I know that we've talked

01:12:42.700 about, you've got so much content I'd like to have you on every week or whenever, whenever you have

01:12:47.980 a new story. Um, and we'll really drill into it today. We sort of had a general conversation, but

01:12:53.180 my hope is that we sort of go through the stories and you can show us, well, here's what I found on

01:12:59.260 WeChat. Here's what I found on the embassy's website. We sort of had a general chat today, but I hope in

01:13:04.380 the future we can actually, okay, folks, here's the new story. What are the facts? What are your sources?

01:13:09.260 Where did you find this? What are the photos? Who's saying what I see today? You're quarreling

01:13:13.980 with a Chinese diplomat from our embassy. I love that. I love the fact that you're smoking them out.

01:13:19.420 You're literally fighting with CCP spies. And I think it's exciting and I'm thrilled that you're

01:13:27.260 doing it with us. And by the way, we take care of our people. So if you get into a real fight with

01:13:32.540 these, uh, uh, communist agents, you let us know what we got your back.

01:13:37.020 Yeah, this is the second diplomat that's showed at me so far that I've caught. Anyways, I might go

01:13:42.300 back and see if there's been more. So yeah, these are definitely connected to the Chinese embassy.

01:13:46.540 They're making it known that they're not very happy with me. That's fine. That means that I'm, uh,

01:13:50.860 closer to the target than they would like me to be. Um, so yeah, I will tread lightly and, you know,

01:13:57.020 watch, watch my back. No, no, I don't think we're at that point yet, but, um, it goes to show you just

01:14:02.700 how brazen their, their, um, you know, their operations are in this country, um, that they

01:14:08.540 feel very, very comfortable to go out. And I mean, you know, Twitter is a free speech platform. I don't

01:14:14.380 block anybody and I invite criticism and things like that. Um, but you know, it's a little bit

01:14:18.460 different when you're actually posted in a diplomatic position in a different country to be lashing out at,

01:14:23.340 uh, Canadian citizen journalists and things like that. It's a little bit wild.

01:14:27.260 It certainly wouldn't be tolerated in their country. Oh yeah. Great point.

01:14:31.340 Um, so, so very, very unbecoming, I think of our, our embassy and, uh, a little bit, uh,

01:14:37.660 speaks to, you know, what, what's called wolf warrior or, or, you know, in plain terms,

01:14:42.060 thuggish behavior, um, and intimidation and things like this. But I mean, this is, it just goes to show

01:14:47.420 you, I mean, if, if they think that they can get away with it with me, they'll, they'll exercise it out in

01:14:52.940 the communities. Um, and you know, the, the concerns are real about intimidation and, and

01:14:58.060 subtle threats and things like that, or overt threats, uh, in some cases, as we found with,

01:15:03.420 with Michael Chong. So, um, so yeah, so that goes on, it's happening. I'm going to work on exposing

01:15:09.340 it. I'm really, really excited to be working with you guys. And yeah, I hope to bring forward all this

01:15:14.140 information. There's so much of it. Like, it's not going to be like 10 stories. It's going to be

01:15:18.060 like 30, maybe more stories. Well, we'll take it all. I mean, and I, and I mean, I wrote a book

01:15:23.420 three years ago that was basically me collecting things already in the public domain, but you were

01:15:27.180 doing primary research. Frankly, I see a book here and we'll have to hand deliver one to the embassy,

01:15:32.860 uh, although they'll probably hack it and steal it first, knowing what they do. Andy Lee, great to

01:15:38.540 catch up with you. Welcome to the team. It's great to have you as our China affairs specialist,

01:15:43.660 and we'll look forward to talking again soon. Yeah. Yeah. That's great. Thanks. And yeah,

01:15:47.820 that could be nice. I don't think I'm going to get, uh, an ambassador signing a forward on my book,

01:15:52.300 the way that Justin Trudeau did. But, um, yeah, hopefully, you know, we put this out there and,

01:15:57.740 and I want to paint a picture that's very digestible to everybody who doesn't, you know,

01:16:02.220 maybe have the understanding and, um, let them know how this network worked and where it came from

01:16:07.260 and how it was formed and how it exerts influence on our democracy. Well, that's excellent. And that's

01:16:12.700 right up our alley. You know, we follow the facts wherever they lead and we tell the other side of

01:16:17.180 the story and you're doing both here. Andy Lee from Calgary, our newest freelance contributor.

01:16:22.620 Stay with us. More ahead.

01:16:29.740 Hey, welcome back. Your old letters to me. Pike says,

01:16:32.700 wouldn't surprise me if that teacher will be arrested and charged with a hate crime.

01:16:36.460 She is no business being in that position where she becomes emotionally loose and runs off the

01:16:40.860 mouth against these students. A candidate for being fired, in my opinion. As for the confrontation

01:16:45.660 down south with police intervention, I see there's a battle between righteousness and unrighteousness.

01:16:50.460 While you're talking, of course, about Pride Week, Pride Month, or as Trudeau called it the other day,

01:16:54.220 Pride Season, Pride Generation, Pride Century. Um,

01:16:58.940 you know, it is sort of, it was a funny insight into that teacher's mind. You're referring, of course,

01:17:04.780 to the Edmonton teacher who said to Muslim students, hey, they had to listen to your Ramadan talk.

01:17:10.620 You have to listen or participate in their Pride Month. Uh, that's, that's how it works. I'm sure in

01:17:16.700 her mind that's, I don't think in her own mind she was saying anything other than the obvious to her. But, uh,

01:17:23.500 you know, I, I, I think she's in a pickle. And I think that what she said would actually be fine

01:17:30.940 to all the teaching establishment, except for she was unlucky enough to have been recorded.

01:17:35.660 I think this is a pickle. And as we talked to Chris Elston the other day, Billboard Chris,

01:17:39.260 you've got a very powerful gay pride agenda and a very powerful anti-Islamophobia agenda.

01:17:47.500 When those two things clash, if you want to know how that ends, you can look to the United Kingdom

01:17:52.140 where there are some schools, 90, 95% Muslim, and they don't put up with pride education. Like

01:17:58.940 literally all the kids, uh, boycott the school and hundreds of parents show up and, uh, the schools

01:18:06.060 submit. Chingadaro says, how would you describe the Canadian identity in the modern age? Okay. Well,

01:18:13.820 that's a good one. Um, well, I, I think that, I think there are traits to the Canadian

01:18:21.820 character and identity that are unchanged. I mean, there's a war on to extirpate them,

01:18:27.980 but I think, uh, a liberal democracy, it is true that we were a fusion of the English and the French.

01:18:33.500 That was a very interesting decision, uh, in the wake of the Battle of the Plains of Abraham,

01:18:38.540 I think to have a harmony between the French and the English. And I know that that's not the full

01:18:44.700 reality today. And, you know, I'm a critic of official bilingualism. Uh, I believe in Laurier

01:18:50.860 and, uh, Diefenbaker who said that freedom is a key part of being Canadian. I think being hardy in

01:18:59.980 our Northern climate and our large climate, I, I, I like the peace order and good government. Of course,

01:19:06.460 I'm inspired by the, by the American, you know, pursuit of happiness and, uh, you know,

01:19:11.820 the New Hampshire motto, live free or die. I like that full throated love for freedom,

01:19:16.380 but the Canadian way, you know, slightly more modest, more evolutionary than revolutionary.

01:19:21.820 I'm not doing very well for a succinct summary, but there is a Canadian character. There absolutely is.

01:19:27.500 On Billboard, Chris Glenna Berry says, you're looking at a true hero folks. Yeah. I just hope he doesn't

01:19:33.420 get roughed up. I'm a little scared for him because he's so calm. And you know, when, when one person

01:19:39.020 in an argument is raging and the other gets calmer, calmer, calmer, that can calm down the

01:19:45.260 enraged side or it can make them just flip their wig. I'm worried that one of these days, he's going

01:19:49.900 to take more than a punch. I'm worried, God forbid, may it never happen, that it might be much worse.

01:19:54.780 And I, I hope he considers getting some security. Well, that's the show for today. Until tomorrow,

01:20:00.940 on behalf of all of us here at Rebel World Headquarters, to you at home, good night,

01:20:05.820 and keep fighting for freedom.

Rebel News Podcast - June 08, 2023

EZRA LEVANT ｜ An eminent foreign affairs scholar has bad news about the Ukraine-Russia war

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