EZRA LEVANT ｜ An update from The Democracy Fund on the 2,100 Fight The Fines cases
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Summary
A special interview with Adam Blake Gallupo, a litigator at the Democracy Fund, the Canadian Civil Liberties Charity, about some of the 2,500 cases they re still defending of walk-down tickets and fines. It s a fascinating and slightly depressing conversation, but it s also hopeful because he s fighting the good fight.
Transcript
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Today, a special interview with Adam Blake Gallupo. He's one of the litigators at the
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Democracy Fund, the Canadian Civil Liberties Charity. We'll talk to him about some of the
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2,500, I thought it was just 2,100, 2,500 cases they're still defending of walk-down tickets and
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fines and criminal charges. It's a fascinating and slightly depressing conversation, but it's
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also hopeful because he's fighting the good fight. That's ahead. But first, let me invite
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you to subscribe to Rebel News Plus. That's the video version of this podcast. It's $8 a month,
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and we really rely on that because we don't take any money from Trudeau. We rely on you.
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Go to rebelnewsplus.com. All right, here's today's podcast.
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Tonight, what's the Democracy Fund doing? How are all those 2,100 pandemic court cases going?
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We'll have a feature interview with Adam Blake Gallupo, a lawyer at TDF. It's March 15th,
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Well, as you know, our first client in our project called Fight the Fines was Pastor Arthur
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Pavlovsky. It was very early in the pandemic, March or April 2020. I can't remember which.
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And I saw this photo, this video of Arthur who does what he does. He feeds the hungry homeless on
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the street. It was very early in the year because it was snowing. So these people were cold and hungry,
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and Arthur was doing what he did, and the police aggressively accosted him, pushed him. And what
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really bothered me is the cop, one cop pushed him and said, stay six feet away. And then the cop moved
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closer and pushed him again, like the cop was being provocative. He was being a bully. And, you know,
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no one likes a bully, but you're bullying a man, feeding the hungry homeless. I can't tell you the
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feeling that washed over me of anger. And I know what we can do. And my idea was that we would crowdfund a
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lawyer for Pastor Arthur. I phoned him up. We were casual acquaintances. I said, here's my plan. He said, sure.
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I mean, what has he got to lose? That became client number one in our Fight the Fines project. Client
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number two, you've heard his name also, Derek Reimer, who was arrested or ticketed for doing the exact
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same thing three years ago, feeding the hungry homeless. Well, soon we had 10 cases, and then 50.
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And I realized that fighting the civil liberties battles of the pandemic would be as large a business
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as running the news organization called Rebel News Network. And so allies applied to the Canada
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Revenue Agency. I myself am not a director and I'm not a staffer of the Democracy Fund. It's at arm's
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length of Rebel News. But allies applied for charitable status for a civil liberties project
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to promote and defend constitutional rights like freedom of association, freedom of mobility,
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things like that that were infringed during the lockdown. So would you believe it
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that the Democracy Fund has taken 2,100 cases in the two years since it really debuted? In fact,
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it just turned two years old this month. 2,100 cases. Not all of them as spectacular as Pastor Arthur's,
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but some of them have been. Well, we're out of the worst of the pandemic and the lockdowns,
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although I still see people on the street wearing masks, and I still see panic fear doctors being
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interviewed on the news all the time. It's still extremely difficult to get into the United States
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if you are unjabbed. It's possible, but difficult. And there remain universities and other workplaces in
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Canada where they insist on a jab to their disgrace. But the intensity of the moment has passed,
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and thank God we're out of that and Justin Trudeau's martial law. But what about the 2,100 people who
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got charged? Some of them, it was like a ticket. Some of them, it was a criminal charge. Some of them,
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very complicated matters indeed. What happened to those 2,100 cases picked up by the Democracy Fund?
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Well, the answer is that those cases continue, that the long arm of the authoritarian law continues
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to prosecute those people. And I thought it would be a good time to sit down for half an hour
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with the lead litigator of the Democracy Fund. The director of litigation is a friend of mine named Alan
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Haunter. But the man who's in the trenches every day is our guest today. We have an army of paralegals.
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We have three staff lawyers. We have other lawyers across the country. When I say we, I mean the
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Democracy Fund. I'm a donor. I'm not a staffer or an officer. But Adam Blake Gallupo has been fighting
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the good fight every day. And I thought, well, let's bring the lad in now to get an update straight
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from the horse's mouth. Adam, great to see you. And before I go any further, let me say congratulations.
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You and Alan and Mark and the paralegals have really helped bring balance back to our justice system
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over the last three years. Thank you for that. Yeah, I appreciate that, Ezra. And I noted you,
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you mentioned we've got over 2,000 matters. I can tell you it's now well over 2,500. I've had a
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conversation very recently with our lead paralegal for Ontario. And she's given me an updated,
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her updated numbers. And we're looking at well over 2,500 matters that we've been able to assist
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people with. Some of these include, you know, just anti-gathering laws. Some of them people are not
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six feet. Some of them are mask cases. Some are Arrive Can app cases. Tell me some of the other,
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some of them are criminal charges. That's right. Give us a sample of some of the cases the Democracy
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Fund is fighting. No, you're right. We've, I want to lay out there just to show that, you know,
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our success, we have been able to save Canadians over $12 million to date as a result of our efforts
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against these fines. With respect to, if you're, you know, we've got, we've got, as I said,
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2,500. The vast majority there, Ezra, is our ticket related matters. Like you pointed out,
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these are social gathering tickets that were issued during the lockdowns and during these mandates that
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were implemented prior to them being lifted. But also we've got the Quarantine Act tickets that
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we've been facing, which are border crossing, typically border crossing. We've got hundreds
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of them in Ontario, obviously. 200, I can tell you, alone, as I've, you know, had carriage of them
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alone in British Columbia. So this is something that we've been pursuing. I can tell you with respect
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to the British Columbia files, we've received 100 withdrawals of the over 200 matters that we've taken
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on to date. So as it stands, you know, I hope that gives our donors some confidence in the work that
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we're doing and the effort that we're putting into these. We, we, we do have a, a good record of
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success there. You touched on criminal matters. We took on at the outset, well, I guess, let's rewind
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a little bit. We were there in Ottawa, the Democracy Fund. All three of our lawyers were there for six
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days, during the, the protests. As charter scrutineers, we were there to provide legal information to
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individuals who were peacefully protesting, and make them aware of what their, their rights were. Subsequent
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to those events, as we saw, the Emergencies Act was invoked. The, the arrests were, were, were, were made in,
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we can get into that, I guess, a little bit later, but there were a number of arrests made. And, and
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we have retained, we have been retained by about 30 individuals, give or take, including our external
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counsel for those, those, those arrests. And I should tell you, Ezra, you know, I don't want to drone on
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too long here, but we've received seven stays to date. And one of, and one withdrawal, which actually
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occurred this week, in relation to a, an individual who was charged with mischief and disobey lawful court
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order for peacefully protesting in, in Windsor. He was facing 45 days in jail. We were able to,
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through, through, through, through our efforts, point out to the Crown, that there was a lack of
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prospect of conviction. And, and, and the Crown, ultimately, because of our, the strength of our
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case, because of our efforts, was forced into a position to agree and withdrew actually just this
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past Wednesday. Wow. Now you said so many things that I've been taking notes. First of all, I'm glad you
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told me we have 2,500 cases. And when I say we, it's because I'm a supporter and a volunteer. I'm not
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an officer or a director or an employee, but I have a great affection for the project. And, and I
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believe in it. And of course, it's our Rebel News donors who have breathed life into it. So that's
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why I speak in the first person when, when talking about it. But as, as I mentioned earlier, it is
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an arm's length organization, separate board of directors, separate bank accounts, separate everything
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from Rebel News. Now you mentioned 2,500 cases. That's incredible. You said that in BC, if I heard
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you right, there's 200 cases, but a hundred of them have been withdrawn, uh, with, withdrawn. Did I,
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did I hear that right? You did. You did. Yes. So, um, so that means that the, the police and the
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prosecutors say, oh, we're not going to actually follow through with it. Is that what that means to
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be withdrawn? Yeah. Yeah. That's exactly right. Um, so the tickets have been canceled, right? So, so,
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so we were, uh, actually look and it's, and it's difficult because the crown is under, uh, no
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obligation to provide you with reasons as to why a ticket has been, uh, withdrawn. They can just
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withdraw. They don't have to give you any explanation. Uh, so it's just, you get a letter
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one day it's withdrawn. They didn't say it's because it was too much hassle. They were worried about
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losing. They didn't have the manpower to prosecute hundreds of cases. They, they realized that the
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police overcharged and it was a foolish. So there could be any reason. What do you think the reason
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was for, for half the tickets in BC to be withdrawn? Is it just simply the prosecutors have more
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important things to do? Well, look, I, you know, I, I hope they do, uh, is, is, is part of my answer
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to that question. I hope they, they do have more important things to do as these are federal
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prosecutors. These are people who are charged with the task, the very important task of, of, uh,
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prosecuting individuals who are, you know, trafficking in the lists of illicit substances
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among other, among other things. Um, but when it, when it comes to, uh, uh, these, these particular
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withdrawals, um, I have a hunch, uh, uh, Ezra and, and I, and I believe it is because, um, our, our
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legal team here and specifically actually our, our litigation director, Alan Haunner, uh, was able
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to point out, uh, the fact that, uh, a number of these charges were resulting from, uh, uh, violations
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that predated, um, a, uh, a declaration made by the health minister. Um, it, it, it gets into a
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rather complicated, um, area of, of law, but the order and counsel, just, just to try and give it a,
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a very brief, uh, overview. The order and counsel here, um, specified and the orders and counsel
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specified that the, uh, health minister that, or the health minister's delegate was to, uh, instruct
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as to the electronic means that should be filled out when crossing the border. This electronic means,
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uh, since, uh, since has been declared to be the arrive can app, right? So, um, however,
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this was not announced, uh, as far as our records are concerned, as far as what I've, I'm seeing on
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their website until November 26th of 2021. So all of the tickets that were in relation to failure
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to comply on an arrive can app basis to November 26th, 2021, our position was these tickets are
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bunk because the law is incomplete. You don't have a health minister or, or, or a health minister's
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delegate stating that this law has been declared. So let me just pause for a second. So you're saying
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that the arrive can app, which was this odious privacy busting, share the data with the world
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health organization, malware, awful app, everyone hated it, barely worked, but mostly it was an
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imposition. You had, you were forced to give your health info. You're saying that until that date,
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November 26th, 2021, it actually hadn't been given the, the authorization by the health minister or the
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delegate of the health minister that any charge before that arrive can wasn't an official thing.
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It wasn't the government thing. It was out there. The app was out there. We've since learned how
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corrupt the bidding process was to make it. So any charge before November 26th, 2021, the arrive can
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app simply was not the law. So cops might've said, fill it out. Airport busy bodies might've said,
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fill it out. The media might've said, fill it out, but there was no legal requirement to fill it
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out until November 26th, 2021. So any charges before then are, are empty. Did I hear you right?
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Did I restate it correctly? You did. You did. And you heard me correctly, Ezra. Um, that's our,
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that, and that's certainly our position. Um, and so they've withdrawn a hundred of these cases.
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We've had in, in numerous jurisdictions in British Columbia alone, I can state that as a,
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as a matter of firsthand experience is it shows you that if you just stand up and fight and I'm
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talking about the hundreds of people who said, I'm not like, I think a lot of people paid these
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fines out of fear and out of fatalism, but for the hundreds who said, you know what, I'm going to
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fight this. And the fact that they didn't have to hire a lawyer because the democracy fund was
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there, that's great. But the fact that it was a flawed ticket. And if they just resisted long
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enough to not plead guilty and not pay the fine, there would be that flaw that you guys found,
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Alan Hohner or director of litigation, that is karma. I think that's wonderful. And I salute
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the hundreds of people who said, I'm not paying, I'm fighting. And would you look at that? Anyone
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given that before 20, uh, November 26th, 2021, according to your contention, which obviously the
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crown must agree with if they're withdrawing these things, I that's, you know, the best way to win a
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fight is for the other guy to run away. That's the best kind of win. Well, I, and I, I, I agree 100%
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with you there, Ezra. I can't say for sure that that's why these tickets were dropped. Um, but you
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know, I've, I've got a hunch. But that's your argument that gets them to withdraw. That's wonderful.
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Now, thank you for that information, but let me ask another question because November, 2021, well,
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that, you know, December, January, February, March. So that's 16 months ago now. But the case I mentioned
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about Arthur Pawlowski, that was March or April, 2020. So we're literally 36 months, 35, 36 months.
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Now that case is over. He won that case finally. But I think we have other cases at the Democracy
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Fund that are two years old, two and a half years old. Some of them are almost three years old. And I,
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I know from years ago when I was a lawyer and in practice, that there are different court rulings
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that say you have the right to a speedy trial. You don't want this hanging over you. People's
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memories fade. People have to move on with their lives. People can't have the stress in their lives.
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You know, the government has some sort of duty to hustle things along. At what point,
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you said we got 2,500 cases in the hopper. At what point do these start going stale
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by the hundred? And at what point does the government say, you know, we haven't got around
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to these in three years. It was a particular political moment. Can we please move on and
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prosecute drug crimes instead? Or at what point can a victim say, you know what, you've taken
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your sweet time. It's been two years, your honor. I want the case dropped because this is violating
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my right to a speedy trial. At what point, Adam, is the government out of time?
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Yeah. Well, I mean, that's actually an excellent question, Ezra. And that's something that we're
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currently canvassing in relation to a number of our upcoming criminal trials. That's the Jordan
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ceiling you're referencing there. It's, in most cases, you've got an 18-month window between charges
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and the trial being commenced. A number of things can come up and interrupt that. That's certainly
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an issue that we're live to, especially related to our criminal trials. But also with our ticket
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matters, we do have a number to date outstanding tickets that our clients have received that have
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not been pursued. And they do date back to 2021. So we have those currently, you know, sort of on the
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back burner. It's just, it seems to be something, it's an administrative issue. And it seems to be
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something that isn't being proactively engaged by the Crown. So at this point, as you rightly pointed
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out, we'd be in a position where a charter challenge would be available to all of these individuals.
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One thing that I did want to note, before we moved on from the ticket matters into criminal matters,
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is that these ticket amounts are unusually high, right, for crossing the border into Canada.
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We're starting at nearly $6,000. It's $5,750. And that's before we factor in the victim surcharge fine.
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So a concern of mine, and a concern that I've had for the last 10 months since we've received these
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files, is the chilling effect that this has on individuals who are wishing to reserve their
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right to a fair trial. You know, if you're in a financially difficult situation, how can you risk
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$5,750 at trial? And these are tickets that we, look, the vast, far and away majority of the
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tickets that we've received recently that we're representing individuals on are these Quarantine
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Act tickets. And they have a minimum, the minimum fine amount is $5,750.
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Look, if we can compare this to an egregious speeding ticket, right? If you look at, if you look at a
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speeding ticket for 150, let's say 100, you're doing 150 in a hundred zone or 160 in a hundred zone on
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the, you're, you're, you're on the highway. You're looking at about a $500 fine, $500, $500.
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Okay. If you're going, you're doing 50 kilometers over the speed limit, 150. I don't even know if my
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car could get up to 150, you would start to mine. That's so fast. That's like auto bond fast. And
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that's 500 bucks, but coming across the border and not wanting to tell Justin Trudeau your intimate
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health details, 10 times that. This is exactly it. This is exactly it. You can even take it to
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impaired driving. You got a thousand dollars, a thousand dollars is the minimum fine amount for
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a first offense for driving under the influence. Why, how I just, I, I'm very confused as to how this
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is, uh, uh, at a magnitude of six, six times, uh, this amount, this first minimum, uh, minimum fine
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amount of driving, uh, while impaired, um, for everybody who comes across the border who doesn't
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properly fill out the, I think I know the answer to that question. And it was shared with me early
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when there were so many awful things to travel. They had these airport quarantine hotels that you
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had to go to that were thousands of dollars. And there was just really, there was no health
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explanation. Like we had a reporter who went through one. He counted 14 different people he interacted with
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before he got out. Like as opposed to just getting in his car and going home. Like, how does that make
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sense? And another lawyer said, Ezra, that's the point. The government is trying to make these so
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stupid, so embarrassing, so humiliating, so expensive, such a trauma that word gets out.
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Don't even try and travel. Don't even try and leave your house. Don't even do anything
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because the government is so malicious and stupid and mean and punitive, like that. The process was
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the punishment and they were terrible on purpose. So I think that this trivial offense of not filling
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out this government app, $5,750. So obviously unjust, you know, cruel and unusual treatment is what the
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chart of rights would say. But I think that that's the point. The government said, how can we get people
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scared? Well, just by being our worst selves, our most unreasonable selves, we'll find thousands of
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people. But for every person we find, we'll scare 10 people into staying at home and locking their
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doors and drawing their window blinds. I think it was mass psychological abuse, psychological
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conditioning of the population. It was awful on purpose. That's my theory.
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Well, and Ezra, to your point there, let's have a look at the type of people who receive
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these tickets, at least in our experience. You know, often it's low income and working class
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households, families with young children, single mothers, racialized minorities, and all of these
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people are ineligible for legal aid certificates. So we've got a real, and a number of them, like, I
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mean, look, we have, we had an individual recently, which we fortunately had a successful result with.
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Two individuals, I should say, were facing more than $14,000 in fine amounts. They were in their 80s.
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We were able to put to the crown, you know, prior to trial, and this was a few days prior to trial,
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we were able to speak with them and tell them, look, I mean, what is the public interest here
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in pursuing this? You know, you've got people in their 80s that are facing these tickets.
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I don't know if you know any, you know, if you're, if you have familiarity, or if you have dealings with
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people in their 80s, are they, are they people that are typically savvy with tech, new technology, and
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technology, you know, by way of applications on their telephone? In this, in these sorts of cases,
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and elderly individuals are not an uncommon theme. This is not an uncommon, uh,
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individual. Yeah, if you don't have a smartphone, if you don't, there was a, uh, incredible case,
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I think it was either a scout troop or a hockey team that they, they couldn't get on wi-fi in a
00:26:09.840
particular airport. So the whole, like, just, and it was an awful app. And yeah, you know what,
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not everyone who's 85 years old has a smartphone. They might have a cell phone that's an old cell
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phone. It was so abusive. But not just that, what's incredible to me is, you know, you get a $50
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ticket, $100 ticket, that stings, you're upset about it. Maybe you complain to your husband or wife
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about it when you get home. But a $5,750 minimum fine for not having an app. You know, how many
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people in this economy are a paycheck or two away from not making rent or groceries? I think it's an
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enormous, I mean, a $1,000 fine is probably a burden for most families. $5,000. That's, I'm just doing
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some math in my head. That's like $8,000 or $9,000 pre-tax. That is like two or three months pay for
00:27:12.080
an ordinary family. That's enough to destroy a family's household budget. That's enough to cause
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such trauma in a family about, you'd have to cancel your vacation. You'd have to cancel sports for the
00:27:26.000
kids. You'd have to skip getting medicine. You'd have to, this would devastate a family. And what's one
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of the chief causes of divorce? Financial discord, financial troubles. These were family busters.
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These, you know, I'm sure there were some rich people who just sucked it up and paid the $57.50.
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But even, I don't, you'd have to be pretty rich not to notice $5,750. And like you said, I mean,
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I remember one family, Democracy Fund case. It was a big family. They had a birthday party.
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The cop didn't believe the family that was that big gave each of them a $1,500 fine. No,
00:28:03.760
it's just a big family. You're just stupid. You don't realize that. So you're charging the family
00:28:07.840
with anti-gathering rules. This is not a RiveCam. This was, you know, and it was, the family wasn't
00:28:13.120
even working. The family was on social assistance. I don't know how they were going to come up with
00:28:17.960
the seven grand or whatever for them all. I have no idea how that was even supposed to work
00:28:21.940
theoretically. I think this was just the government and the police abusing people to get word of mouth
00:28:31.500
Well, Ezra, I've got a, yeah, you drive a hard point there. I mean, I have a hard, I can't, I can't
00:28:37.960
push, push back against that. Look, you've got people who are in debt. They've got, they're paying
00:28:43.660
off lines of credit with credit cards. Okay. They're facing these fines. Like you said, $5,750.
00:28:54.400
And that is before the victim fine surcharge, which in Ontario, I believe is 25%. So you're well over
00:29:05.020
$6,000 for these fines. So if that doesn't have a chilling effect on pursuing a matter to trial,
00:29:17.000
irrespective of whether you've got a case or not, if that doesn't have a chilling effect on whether
00:29:23.120
you pursue a matter to trial, I don't, you know, I don't know what does it. And I just, I have not
00:29:28.680
heard an explanation as to why the, uh, these, what, what, what, how was that number arrived at?
00:29:35.280
$5,750. You know, I'm trying to remember how much Justin Trudeau was fined for violating the
00:29:41.740
Conflict of Interest Act. I think it was $500 by contrast. Now, let me ask you a question. Um,
00:29:48.000
and by the way, that doesn't even like to hire a lawyer to fight it. You know, you hire a private
00:29:52.520
lawyer, uh, cause you say these are not legal aid eligible. Um, which again, why is that? Why,
00:29:59.580
why can't you get legal aid for these? Again, it's punitive. Um, hire a lawyer. That's thousands more.
00:30:09.680
Uh, you guys, like, look, if you're, if you're looking at a lawyer, I mean, you know, the, the
00:30:14.860
bare minimum here, especially if it's going to trial, the bare minimum would be $1,000, $1,500.
00:30:20.140
If you lose, you're looking at a thousand, $1,500 on top of the $5,750 that your ticket
00:30:29.980
lays out for you. So it's, it's, uh, it's, it's an amount of money that, that people just
00:30:35.720
aren't able to, to afford. And, and it just, just, just to emphasize again, it, it seems to be
00:30:42.640
working class, uh, people that were most affected, at least in my experience by, uh, these,
00:30:49.200
these, uh, tickets. Yeah. Oh, sure. I mean, the whole pandemic, I mean, I'm not a Marxist,
00:30:55.080
but the whole pandemic had a class structure to it. Um, some people had big backyards. Some people
00:31:00.060
had country cottages they could go to. Some people live in a small condo downtown without even a
00:31:05.300
balcony. Oh, go to the park. Well, guess what? They closed those. Oh, go to the gym. Guess what?
00:31:09.980
They closed those. Oh, well, Hey, just work from home on zoom. Yeah. I'm a waiter. How do I work as a
00:31:16.800
waiter from zoom? I'm a bartender. I'm a, uh, I'm a shopkeeper. Well, just shop is close. We'll just
00:31:22.560
buy from Amazon. Well, actually, uh, that's, you know, we, we double Jeff Bezos as well, but we put
00:31:28.900
out every mom and pop retailer. Well, go to church. Well, that's close. Well, at least the Walmart and
00:31:35.020
the Costco is open. So you can go there. You know, there was a classism to it. That's infuriating.
00:31:41.980
Hey, I want to shift subjects for a second. I know one of the things that happens when your lawyer
00:31:46.780
up, uh, the lawyer asks for disclosure, which is just simply a term for the government to disclose
00:31:55.240
what their evidence is. And they have a special duty to disclose exculpatory evidence, which is
00:32:03.440
the lawyer's way of saying they can't just give stuff that's embarrassing to the suspect. They have
00:32:08.920
to give stuff that puts, that might excuse, uh, the suspect too. So the police and the prosecutor
00:32:16.560
can't just give you what they pick. They have to give you everything, including the stuff that
00:32:22.000
shows maybe you didn't do it. So again, that's something I think, uh, a lay person might not
00:32:27.680
know to ask for disclosure and they might not know how to go through it. But when you and the rest of
00:32:33.200
the democracy fund team lawyers up, you ask for disclosure. And that's been an interesting thing
00:32:40.440
too, because some of the, some of what you've seen has been drone footage. Tell us about some
00:32:46.280
of the interesting disclosure, including disclosure that has managed to beat some of these charges for
00:32:52.000
people. Well, uh, you know, as a number of these are still live, so I don't want to go, uh, get too
00:32:59.840
far into the weeds here, but I can say, uh, with relation to a matter that was just withdrawn on, uh,
00:33:06.220
on Wednesday, this was a criminal file and this is in distinction, uh, from the, uh, the ticket
00:33:13.060
matters that we were talking about, uh, earlier. Uh, this is a matter where an individual is facing
00:33:17.720
45 days, uh, in jail along with a permanent criminal record. Um, and we were, uh, able through
00:33:27.500
pre-trial, uh, appearances, court appearances, uh, and several appearances before, uh, judge, uh, we were able
00:33:34.940
to, uh, put our, our case, uh, to, uh, actually in most recently, uh, earlier in February to a judge,
00:33:44.180
um, to the effect that, uh, the crown was, uh, put in a position where they had to, um, or
00:33:50.820
they didn't, you know, uh, I'm, I'm going to say that they had to withdraw. They didn't have to,
00:33:56.700
but, um, they, they were, uh, they didn't really have many other options. Let's put it that way.
00:34:04.540
Um, and this was because of, as you rightly pointed out, the disclosure, issues with the
00:34:08.940
disclosure. In this particular case, we did not have an arresting officer. Okay. So our, our,
00:34:16.840
our client came to us, uh, seeking help for charges, uh, under, uh, for, for mischief charges and charges,
00:34:26.240
uh, for disobeying a lawful court order. Um, both of these charges were dropped actually just this
00:34:34.080
past Wednesday. And, um, the, and, and this is due to the fact that, uh, we were able to point out
00:34:43.020
in, uh, flaws in the crown's case, flaws in the disclosure, um, such that they were not able to,
00:34:48.920
uh, make out, uh, these, these particular charges. It's, it's, I wish I could say that this was specific
00:34:56.900
to this particular case. Um, I can't, it's a problem across the board. Uh, and it's something
00:35:05.700
that we're, especially with trials looming, we have trial dates set now, and this is part of the
00:35:11.740
public record. So I can talk about it. We've got trial dates set now for the end of this year,
00:35:16.480
beginning of next year. We still have, we have, we are seeking, um, we're, we're not done seeking
00:35:25.180
disclosure. Um, we are canvassing what's called a stinchcomb application in, uh, with any relation
00:35:31.880
to a number of our files, um, uh, due to, uh, missing disclosure here. I wish I could, you know,
00:35:38.320
I can't really speculate as to why we don't have this disclosure, but I, you know, I, I'm happy to say
00:35:45.340
that, uh, I'm willing to say that it is, uh, necessary disclosure in order to proceed to trial.
00:35:51.820
All right. So you use some legal jargon there and that's fine. You're a lawyer, but I want to just
00:35:56.480
try and use plain English for a minute. So in some cases you're saying there's not even a cop
00:36:00.820
who's willing to show up in the trial. And of course, even before I was a lawyer, I knew
00:36:05.600
if you fight your, your traffic ticket at city hall, if the cop didn't show up, you were, you were in
00:36:11.780
the clear because there was no one leading the charge against you. The judge would just immediately
00:36:16.160
throw it out. And that was always a happy lottery moment. If you start, you know, if the cop was too
00:36:21.540
busy to make it. So you're saying that in some of these cases that you've been preparing for,
00:36:25.860
there's no cop involved, no cop is identifying and, and yet these cases seem to be slouching towards
00:36:33.260
trial. That's going to be weird. It is. Um, so I can say that they do have officers that are willing
00:36:41.320
to, to show up. Um, I, I, you know, in, in, in this case in particular, um, that we had just recently
00:36:49.940
withdrawn, there was an officer that was willing to show up to trial. The problem as well is that it
00:36:54.960
wasn't the arresting officer. So it's just some guy who's going to show up and had no first-hand
00:37:00.220
knowledge. What could he possibly say? He couldn't be a witness. He wasn't there. It's the definition
00:37:05.200
of hearsay. I mean, the judge would say, what are you doing here? What are you doing? That's just so
00:37:10.840
crazy. I think it comes back to what I said earlier, which is a lot of this was abusive policymaking.
00:37:18.560
A lot of these tickets were just like a PR move to scare people. Or maybe some cops were,
00:37:25.880
didn't know what the rules were or, or, or just trying to do something. Some cops I think are
00:37:31.160
bullies, but now things have sobered up. It's one, two, three years later. And again, prosecutors and
00:37:38.840
even police are saying, really, you want me to talk about that person I gave a ticket to two and a half
00:37:45.200
years ago because they didn't have a six feet separation. And you want me to take a half a day
00:37:53.040
out of my schedule and go to court so we can get this guy. So I can just imagine that unless you
00:37:59.980
were some extremist lockdownist zealot, you've probably moved on. And the idea of spending half
00:38:08.780
a day in court and, uh, is, is questionable. I guess cops get paid no matter what, but for a
00:38:15.100
prosecutor, again, they get paid no matter what, but they probably have something more urgent than to
00:38:20.200
do. I wouldn't be surprised if most normal prosecutors would want to just drop all these.
00:38:28.940
And if there's any prosecutions going on, it's probably some politician who's insisting on it.
00:38:33.900
When you say half the cases were withdrawn in BC, it makes me think that they realize they don't have
00:38:41.140
to do it. But other jurisdictions, you know, there's probably some lockdownist politician who's
00:38:47.160
shouting at the prosecutors, damn it, go after those people. Don't you know, they weren't wearing
00:38:51.580
their masks. I think this is so political. Um, and different parts of the government machine
00:38:57.720
want out and other people are sort of forced to stay in. What do you think?
00:39:03.860
Well, look, I mean, look, I can talk about the numbers we've got.
00:39:06.900
Um, you probably what looking at over at least over half of these matters are proceeding to trial.
00:39:14.800
So, you know, we, we've, um, the, the, we're, we're, we're finished with the preliminary work,
00:39:21.460
I guess at this point, but we still have, um, really the brunt end of, of, of, of, of the workload
00:39:28.640
is, is, is ahead of us. Um, the, the matters that we were able to get, uh, withdrawn have,
00:39:35.680
have now been withdrawn and now we're, we're, we're, we're looking at trial and again, that's
00:39:41.140
next year. We've got a number of applications we're planning on making in advance. I don't
00:39:44.840
want to get obviously into details with respect to those. Um, but, but it it's, um, yeah, as far
00:39:52.320
as, and then, and then I think you touched on the tickets there, um, uh, a bit it's, it's as far as
00:39:59.560
the, um, the, the, the, the public interest in pursuing these at this point, it's, you know,
00:40:08.080
and that's a little confusing to me as well. I, I don't, I don't really see what the public interest
00:40:12.420
is at this point. The mandates have been lifted. Um, but here we are. You know, I know there's two
00:40:18.120
rules for prosecutors. Uh, number one, is it in the public interest? And number two, is there a
00:40:24.440
reasonable likelihood of conviction? And I tell you, in so many of those cases, one or even both of
00:40:30.920
these are missing. Well, listen, Adam, it's great to catch up with you on all these things. Um,
00:40:36.660
there are other things that democracy fund does. If for example, it's not all defending tickets and
00:40:41.220
charges. You guys sent a lot of letters to universities that were trying to keep VAX mandates
00:40:46.560
for students or mask mandates. Uh, there's other civil cases, uh, for example, WestJet and, um,
00:40:54.560
Air Canada. So there's, there's, uh, other litigation afoot too. You guys are really busy.
00:40:59.680
It sounds like the hard work's just about to begin for you. That's right. Yeah. And, and just,
00:41:05.040
yeah, I can touch on, uh, some of the students, you know, again, these are, uh, another, uh,
00:41:11.900
instance of vulnerable population, uh, vulnerable population who's facing, um, these, these mandates.
00:41:19.180
I understand that it's, it's, uh, you know, these mandates have been lifted and, and your viewers are
00:41:24.100
probably thinking, wait a minute, none of this, none of this should apply now. Well, these, these
00:41:28.820
mandates were in place, uh, previously and, and they carry over. It's the courts move like molasses.
00:41:34.440
So we, we've, we, we're, we're, we're dealing currently still with, with students who have
00:41:40.640
incurred, uh, you know, obviously tens of thousands of dollars in loans facing termination of their
00:41:45.320
studies. Um, if they, uh, would or, or could not comply with, uh, vaccine booster mandates. Um, we've,
00:41:55.020
uh, met with our, our legal team has met with hundreds and hundreds of, of, of, of students,
00:42:01.360
uh, facing life altering circumstances and have assisted. And personally, uh, we've, we've been
00:42:07.640
retained by more than 40, um, over the last 14 months. Um, uh, again, in relation to these mandates
00:42:16.580
that have been imposed over the last four, 14, uh, four, four, 14 months with, with post-secondary
00:42:22.380
institutions. Um, we were able to, uh, I guess as an, an example here, and again, very recently,
00:42:29.720
um, there was a, uh, a 40 year old, um, uh, racialized single mom who was facing the loss
00:42:37.920
of four years of education along with any prospect of post-graduate, uh, studies. Um, she couldn't
00:42:48.020
get an exemption, uh, to the vaccine mandate and came to us for help. Uh, and this was actually just,
00:42:56.280
you know, three weeks ago, uh, she reached out to us, Hey, uh, you know, I need some help with,
00:43:01.280
with, with respect to this. Um, we were able to, uh, send off a, uh, a letter to her school,
00:43:08.220
enter into negotiations with the, uh, on staff, uh, lawyer with the school and, uh, obtain an exemption
00:43:17.440
for her. So she has now gone from, I am no longer able to complete my studies to not only am I able to
00:43:23.640
complete my studies, but I am able to maintain my post-graduate, uh, aspirations. Um, I have to say
00:43:31.280
for that particular matter that the, the credit there goes to our, uh, one of our, uh, senior
00:43:36.420
litigation, uh, uh, lawyers, uh, Mark Joseph. Yeah. Well, that's great to hear. So it's not always
00:43:43.020
a ticket or a charge, but haggling with these authoritarian, bureaucratic, Kafka-esque sets of
00:43:51.480
rules. Universities can be the worst for that. Well, listen, Adam, I'm very proud of the work
00:43:56.340
that you've done. I, I think back three years ago to that first case of Arthur Pawlowski and I would
00:44:01.760
never in a million of years have thought that we would have 2,500 cases, a full-time staff of three
00:44:08.000
lawyers, four paralegals, and tens of thousands of supporters. And I'm one of them, tens of thousands
00:44:15.700
of supporters chipping in. I think the average gift is to the democracy fund is only around about
00:44:21.880
a hundred bucks. Amazingly, the democracy fund can issue charitable tax receipts, which of course
00:44:28.680
Rebel News could not do. That's one of the reasons the democracy fund was set up to issue charitable
00:44:33.520
tax receipts because it is charitable work. Defending people who can't afford their lawyers is
00:44:39.460
charitable work, not just to help that individual, but to defend civil rights. That is a noble charitable
00:44:47.320
purpose. You're doing a great job. I feel a lot better briefed and smart on the subject. And it's
00:44:53.880
good to know that the work actually, it's not just going on, it's about to hit its most important part,
00:45:01.440
hundreds and hundreds of trials. You're going to be busy and same with the rest of the team. So good
00:45:06.320
luck with that and keep it up. Thanks, Ezra. And look, I think we could probably do this again.
00:45:12.880
We've got a lot of work ahead of us, like you said. All I can do is thank the donors for their
00:45:19.080
very generous support. It's because of them that we're able to do this and get the successes. Look,
00:45:25.480
I think this is successes here speak for themselves. But that's because of our very generous donors.
00:45:34.080
Well, isn't that the truth? And folks, you can find out more at thedemocracyfund.ca.
00:45:41.800
And we didn't even talk about the work the Democracy Fund did at the Emergencies Act Commission of
00:45:47.200
Inquiry, where the Democracy Fund was accredited as an intervener. You guys were accredited as an
00:45:52.920
intervener in a court case in Windsor. So you guys are really doing important work. Well, maybe we can
00:45:58.800
catch up with you in another month or two, especially as some of these cases start to go
00:46:03.240
through a trial. If the prosecutor doesn't blink, I'd love to see how these go. In the meantime,
00:46:09.240
keep up the great work and thanks for your service. Thanks so much, Ezra. Thanks. Thanks very much for
00:46:14.000
having me. Our pleasure. There you have it. Adam Blake Gallupo, a litigator with the Democracy Fund
00:46:20.460
who works on the projects that took over the Fight the Fines project. That's our show for today. Until
00:46:28.380
next time, on behalf of all of us here at Rebel World Headquarters, to you at home, good night and keep