Director Aaron Gunn joins us to talk about his new documentary, Fractured Nation, about the pillaging of Western Canada by the Trudeau government, and why he thinks Canadian filmmakers should stay in Canada. He also talks about why Ezra thinks Aaron should go to Hollywood.
00:07:34.900I moved out to Ontario when the Sun News Network started over 10 years ago, and I've stayed.
00:07:39.980So I can't really call myself an Albertan anymore.
00:07:43.680I mean, I've been out here for too long, although I think I'm a Westerner at heart.
00:07:49.500How do you talk about legitimate Western grievances, feeling left out, feeling marginalized,
00:07:56.420feeling like power is not properly shared?
00:07:59.020How do you talk about that when in some ways power is a zero-sum game?
00:08:03.700If you have more power for Alberta within Confederation, that pretty much certainly means less power for Ontario and Quebec.
00:08:12.960And if you have grievances against central Canada, how are Ontarians and Quebecers responding?
00:08:19.620And I say this as someone whose heart is in the West, but I'm here in Ontario.
00:08:23.200And frankly, I think a lot of Ontarians and even more Quebecers, they don't even think about the West.
00:08:29.280And if they do, you know, maybe there's a condescension and maybe there's a look-down-your-nose-ishness.
00:08:36.940But how do you get Ontario and Quebec to help rather than push them away?
00:08:41.360Big thing for me is I think the uniting factor has to be provinces coming together and people in those provinces coming together to push back against the federal government's creeping desire to centralize power.
00:08:57.540With Quebec, who you just mentioned, I think that's where the greatest opportunity lies.
00:09:02.920It goes back to 1982 in the Constitution negotiations.
00:09:06.840I'm not a constitutional expert, but, you know, Rennie Levesque coming together with the Premier of Alberta at the time to, you know, demand Section 92A in the Constitution to stand up for provincial rights and provincial autonomy.
00:09:21.300We're going to talk, I'm sure, later about what Danielle Smith's doing in Alberta with the Sovereignty Act.
00:09:25.820But in a lot of cases, these are things that Quebec has already done for years.
00:09:29.680So I think there's actually a precedent set for different provinces coming together to stand up for provincial autonomy and a common framework that we can all work within within Canada.
00:09:40.880But importantly, and this is something I keep coming back to, in my opinion, for this country to work in the long term, we all need to play by the same rules.
00:09:48.040And right now, I think in some cases, with Quebec specifically, we're not all playing by the same rules, and that creates issues.
00:09:56.240You know, 25 years ago, I worked for Preston Manning, and one of the phrases he used, he said, our problem isn't with Ontario, it's with Ottawa.
00:10:05.240And I thought, you know what, that's actually right.
00:10:08.580And by the way, not all Ontario is Toronto, and not all Toronto is downtown CBC Toronto in the annex, by the way.
00:10:15.880I mean, there are a lot of sensible people everywhere, even in Quebec.
00:10:21.200You know, Montreal and the liberal heartland is very much different from Quebec City or the rural parts.
00:10:27.780And that's part of the lifelong adventure of discovering your own country, especially if it's a place as big as this.
00:10:34.260But there is one thing that you take on head-on, and that is, and it varies by different poll and what's going on, but, you know, a third of Albertans, and sometimes it's more, sometimes it's less, seriously want to separate.
00:10:51.180Now, if that was the number in Quebec, I think that's higher than it is in Quebec.
00:10:57.880I mean, Quebec got the entire country's attention and care for a generation.
00:11:08.400But they had the entire country and all of Ottawa catering to them for years.
00:11:13.560The reaction wasn't go to hell, it was please stay, what can we do?
00:11:17.180Here, let me play the clip from your film, Fractured Nation, about separatism, and I'd love your thoughts on it, and how Western separatism is mocked or ignored, but Quebec separatism was used as the reason for shoveling wealth, power, and privilege to that province.
00:11:36.880But a series of decisions by Ottawa, specifically targeting resource industries, has angered Western provinces and, increasingly, the people who live there.
00:11:49.180Projects shut down, taxes imposed, job killing made in Ottawa regulations that have reduced investment, collapsed production, and put the very existence of Western Canada's most important industries into doubt.
00:12:05.880These perceived attacks have led an increasing number of Western Canadians to question whether being a part of Canada is worth it at all.
00:12:16.560According to a poll conducted in 2022 by ResearchCo, a third of Albertans now say that Alberta would be better off as a separate country, a higher percentage than even Quebec.
00:12:30.120So what exactly is causing this, and how long has the problem been going on?
00:12:36.840To find out, I flew to our nation's capital to meet John Robson, a journalist and historian well-versed in the origins of Western alienation.
00:12:47.760What do you think are kind of the origin story of Western alienation in Canada?
00:12:51.740I think there's always been some element of feeling looked down on by the East.
00:12:56.480But, you know, in the days of Sir John A. Macdonald, or even into the 20th century, the West kind of was the poor cousin.
00:13:03.260I think the core of the problem is that when the West grew up, it wasn't treated as an adult or a partner by Eastern Canada.
00:13:11.500They continued to be exploited in terms of resources.
00:13:13.500And I think that their viewpoints tended to be regarded not just that they didn't just disagree with Western views, it regarded them with contempt.
00:13:20.600The line actually is, and it's an old one, is that it's 3,000 miles from Vancouver to Ottawa, but 30,000 miles from Ottawa to Vancouver.
00:13:26.980And I think the National Energy Programme was an enormous example of how the East would treat the West not merely as something to be ripped off, but also something to be despised.
00:13:37.220The National Energy Programme was a policy brought in by Pierre Elliott Trudeau in 1980, following an election where the Liberals didn't win a single seat in BC, Alberta, or Saskatchewan.
00:13:52.080The purpose of the NEP was to give Ottawa control over Western Canada's energy industry and to force the West to sell its resources to the East at below market rates.
00:14:04.360Due to the NEP, unemployment in Alberta increased from 3.7% to 12.4%.
00:14:12.160The bankruptcy rate increased by 150%, and numerous families were left destitute and facing financial ruin.
00:14:24.020We're watching excerpts from the film Fractured Nation, a new documentary by Aaron Gunn.
00:14:29.740There's a lot in there, and I'd love you to expand on it a bit.
00:14:32.780But one thing that I just want to say, and I think of this every time I'm reminded of Trudeau's National Energy Programme, which was an absolute disaster, outright theft.
00:14:42.440But Trudeau didn't want to shut down the oil industry.
00:14:48.140In fact, he invested, so to speak, in it.
00:15:09.420Pierre Trudeau wanted the workers to own it, the country to own it, but he wanted it working.
00:15:14.900Justin Trudeau literally wants to shut down the oil patch.
00:15:18.760Pierre Trudeau was a crook, but at least he was smart.
00:15:21.240Justin Trudeau, I don't even know what to make of it.
00:15:24.000Give me your thoughts on that and the other things we just saw there.
00:15:27.580Yeah, well, I think the common denominator, though, when it comes to Justin and his father, was that they don't care about the interests of Western Canada.
00:15:35.220They know there's no votes here for them.
00:15:36.780As you can saw in 1980, before Pierre Trudeau brought in the National Energy Programme, they didn't win a single seat in all of BC, Alberta, or Saskatchewan.
00:15:45.280And their fortunes haven't improved that much since then.
00:15:48.380And yet they bring in the National Energy Programme that cripples Alberta's economy, that completely put the interests of Alberta basically at the back of the bus, as you pointed out, to feed the special interests of Central Canada and the East.
00:16:09.640And I think that started the resentment.
00:16:54.580I mean, I was a teenager, so I wasn't even old enough to join parties.
00:16:58.220And I just sort of saw that the local MPs – I grew up in Calgary.
00:17:04.140The local MPs talked a good line, but they were not the ones making the decisions.
00:17:10.340Brian Mulroney was voted in enormously in the West as an antidote to Pierre Trudeau.
00:17:16.840And he did relieve the West of most of the National Energy Programme.
00:17:21.880He didn't shut down all of it, by the way.
00:17:23.620But, you know, there were so many things that reminded us that in an analogy of what you said about Vancouver being 3,000 miles away from Ottawa, but Ottawa 30,000, that was a great line.
00:17:39.300Preston Manning, who I worked for for a couple of years, talked about MPs representing Ottawa to the riding rather than representing the riding to Ottawa.
00:17:49.300And I could see with my eyes that longtime conservative MPs who had in their day been great were reduced to just being messengers for Toronto, Ottawa, Montreal.
00:18:01.540And then along came Preston Manning, who felt like he was clean and unsullied and had Alberta roots and spoke philosophically and didn't seem motivated by money or power.
00:18:16.020And it just felt like the right antidote.
00:18:19.300And his motto, remember his motto, the West wants in.
00:18:21.940It was an answer to separatism because, you know, and we don't have time to show all of your film.
00:18:55.100And Preston Manning, in a way, saved the country because he took all that energy and he said, no, no, no, please, trust me, we can reform the system.
00:20:04.560Here, let's watch your treatment of the old Reform Party.
00:20:07.300In 1987, the Reform Party of Canada started out as a Western protest movement, but quickly involved into the largest federal conservative party in the country.
00:20:18.760This new party, born out of Western frustration, included a young MP named Stephen Harper, who would go on to co-author the infamous firewall letter to Alberta Premier Ralph Klein that detailed how he believed the province could operate more autonomously within confederation.
00:20:38.920Among the letter's five other signatories was Andy Crooks.
00:20:43.420We didn't call it the firewall letter.
00:20:53.520It's as if you have a computer and you have a firewall to keep out the bad stuff.
00:20:57.700They were looking for a conservative response to the perceived leaning against and oppression of the West.
00:21:06.660Five years after penning the firewall letter, Stephen Harper would lead a reunited conservative party to their first electoral victory in 18 years.
00:21:18.360Let me just say one thing and let me be clear.
00:21:27.700But in 2015, Harper was defeated and a new prime minister with an all too familiar last name has seen the familiar themes of Western alienation and economic grievance resurrected all over again.
00:22:40.560In some ways, it was even a great government.
00:22:43.320But my main criticism, both as a conservative and as a Westerner at heart, is he didn't make any permanent changes that couldn't be undone by Justin Trudeau in a matter of years.
00:22:55.580Yeah, unfortunately, I think that's a pretty accurate assessment, Ezra.
00:22:58.200I think he got stuck in the trap of always governing to win the next election as opposed to governing like you've got four years to make the changes that you want to make to the country and that you think are needed.
00:23:09.620I will also point out, I'm not sure if I'm getting ahead of you here, but, you know, the biggest mistake, and I think talking to some of Harper's people, they would probably agree with this, is another thing where he didn't make big moves, and that's Supreme Court appointments.
00:23:31.660And the one thing, I know you do, I'm sure, a great job of it on Rebel, but a lot of Canadians don't understand the importance of the Supreme Court here.
00:23:38.480And I know people attack the U.S. court for being more politicized, but in a way that's a good thing because at least people are awake to the fact of how important the Supreme Court is and how it can impact their lives, where in Canada we seem ignorant to that fact.
00:23:53.180And so part of this documentary also lays that out, and unfortunately a lot of Harper's Supreme Court picks are not a lot better, if any better, than Justin Trudeau's.
00:24:02.220And that's something that we saw in the carbon tax decision.
00:24:06.680Hopefully that's not something we see in the Bill C-69 decision, which is still yet to come.
00:24:12.000And, of course, a subpart of that is also how Quebec is constitutionally guaranteed a third of the Supreme Court seats, having just over 8 million people.
00:24:22.120And then the West, with about 13 million people, only has two currently.
00:24:26.080So I think that's another big issue, and it points to one of the structural imbalances in our confederation.
00:24:54.760She has an unusual blend of libertarian ideas and conservative ideas and Western ideas, and I think she brainstorms sort of out loud, and that has gotten her in some trouble before, but no trouble that the voters didn't forgive.
00:25:10.440One of her ways she secured the leadership was through her innovation of the Sovereignty Act, which is like Harper's Firewall.
00:25:21.800Quebec really talked about the sovereignty.
00:25:23.620It talks about the Sovereignty Act in their own way all the time.
00:25:26.120You treat that in the documentary as well.
00:25:28.920Let's play one last clip from your film, Fractured Nation.
00:25:32.840This is how you address Danielle Smith's Sovereignty Act.
00:25:38.120Now, we have been made aware that in the coming weeks, Justin Trudeau is planning on bringing forward new restrictions on electricity generation from natural gas that will not only massively increase your power bills, but will also endanger the integrity and reliability of our entire power grid.
00:25:54.640And as premier, I cannot, under any circumstances, allow these contemplated federal policies to be inflicted upon Albertans.
00:26:05.000This is not a road we can afford to go down.
00:26:08.440If he persists, he will be hurting Canadians from coast to coast, and he will strain the patience and goodwill of Albertans in an unprecedented fashion.
00:26:17.120Newly elected Premier of Alberta, Danielle Smith, has introduced legislation in the spirit of Stephen Harper's original firewall letter.
00:26:29.340Smith's law will put in place protections to shield Alberta from federal policies that violate provincial jurisdiction and infringe on Alberta's constitutional rights,
00:26:40.640while looking to expand Alberta's power and autonomy by potentially taking actions in the footsteps of those already taken by the province of Quebec.
00:26:51.780Something that Justin Trudeau isn't too happy about.
00:26:56.540Obviously, we're going to look at this very, very closely and think about the implications.
00:27:00.260But our focus remains on making sure the Albertans are part of a growing, cleaner economy and protect our environment for years to come.
00:27:07.680The Sovereigny Act was meant to send a message to Albertans that we're going to defend ourselves.
00:27:13.080Danielle's legislation, the UCP legislation, is taking together all of the rights that Quebec already has.
00:27:21.520And Quebec uses them as a shield, and Danielle has tried to hammer those same materials into a sword.
00:27:28.700Certainly, it was a signal to the rest of the country that Albertans are still not happy with the equalization program, and things need to change.
00:27:37.680Inspired by Alberta's Sovereignty Act, Saskatchewan has now passed sovereignty legislation of their own.
00:27:46.380Something that could maybe be the start of a trend of provinces finally standing up to the federal government.
00:27:52.820I see you made reference to the Saskatchewan First Act.
00:27:56.260You know, Scott Moe, the Premier of Saskatchewan, is pretty solid on these issues, too.
00:28:00.720He doesn't act as a lightning rod in the same way.
00:28:04.140I think the media hate Danielle Smith, and they've sort of given up trying to dislodge Scott Moe.
00:28:10.880I think the Sovereignty Act was attacked by all sorts of people who are completely fine with it from Quebec.
00:28:19.720They just don't like to see Alberta getting uppity.
00:28:22.080I mean, I think it's hard to argue against that point, because Quebec has been using these different levers.
00:28:33.240Basically, all the Sovereignty Act is Daniel Smith coming out and saying,
00:28:36.360we're going to use every tool in our toolbox to oppose federal overreach and federal intervention in areas of provincial responsibility.
00:28:46.280And, I mean, that's something that Quebec has already been doing quite overtly for decades, quite frankly.
00:28:53.920So I think that everything in the Sovereignty Act is not only above board, but it's something that other provinces should take note of.
00:29:01.720It's something that obviously Saskatchewan is now following suit with.
00:29:04.960And because, quite frankly, Justin Trudeau, I think, is two things that's going on with this government right now.
00:29:13.260Number one, he has a proclivity to centralize power, to control power in Ottawa,
00:29:19.940whether that's by infringing on provincial jurisdiction with Bill C-69 or the carbon tax mandate,
00:29:27.300or whether that's Bill C-11 and trying to clamp down on free speech.
00:29:30.840It's that proclivity to try to exercise control over the population.
00:29:35.800And on top of that, the other thing is he clearly has an inherent dislike for the West,
00:29:41.380in Alberta specifically, that he inherited from his father.
00:29:45.380And those two things combined have led to a series of policies that are impossible to interpret as anything other than anti-Western or anti-Albertan.
00:29:54.640And the provincial government needs to use all of its power to stand up to that.
00:30:00.540And I think good on Danielle for doing that.
00:30:02.440I know there's some, you know, these attempts to regulate natural gas production or natural gas electricity generation is the next thing in the pipeline.
00:30:11.420And Danielle's been talking about that, and hopefully she's able to stand up to that.
00:30:14.780The only thing that concerns me is what we just chatted about,
00:30:17.940which is that Harper did not use his opportunity to appoint, you know, principled Supreme Court judges
00:30:26.940that would interpret the Constitution the way that it was written.
00:32:10.960Aaron Gunn and his new movie, Until Next Time, on behalf of all of us here at Rebel World Headquarters, to you at home, good night and keep fighting for freedom.