Rebel News Podcast - December 09, 2023


EZRA LEVANT ｜ Tom Flanagan on the false media narrative of 'unmarked graves'


Episode Stats

Length

44 minutes

Words per Minute

156.27406

Word Count

6,968

Sentence Count

495

Misogynist Sentences

3

Hate Speech Sentences

15


Summary

Can you be charged and prosecuted for denying that Indian people, indigenous people in Canada, were genocided? We ll talk with Dr. Tom Flanagan, who would probably be the first person prosecuted, about denialism and indigenous genocide.


Transcript

00:00:00.000 Very controversial show today. I think the show could be prosecuted one day.
00:00:05.860 It's about denialism and indigenous genocide. Can you be charged and prosecuted for denying
00:00:13.420 that Indian people, indigenous people in Canada were genocided? We'll talk with Dr. Tom Flanagan
00:00:20.100 who would probably be the first person prosecuted. He's got a new book out. You're not going to want
00:00:25.080 to miss this. That's a habit. First, let me invite you to get the video version of this podcast. Go
00:00:30.180 to rebelnewsplus.com. Click subscribe. Eight bucks a month. We need that to pay the bills because we
00:00:36.220 don't take money from Trudeau. We don't get money from YouTube. They've demonetized us. We rely
00:00:41.320 100% on you. So please go to rebelnewsplus.com. All right, here's today's interview.
00:00:55.080 Tonight, Dr. Tom Flanagan and his new book about what really happened in Kamloops, B.C.
00:01:08.860 It's December 8th, and this is The Ezra LeVant Show.
00:01:12.040 You fighting for freedom. Shame on you, you censorious bug.
00:01:25.080 You know, for years, the left has tried to make it a kind of a crime to doubt the theory of man-made
00:01:33.640 global warming. They say if you don't believe in their theory, then you are a denier, not even a
00:01:40.400 skeptic, not even someone with a different point of view, not even someone who believes in the
00:01:44.640 scientific method of testing a hypothesis. You are a denier, and the word was chosen on purpose
00:01:51.220 to have a memory of Holocaust denial, which of course is a grave moral crime. It's a tantamount
00:02:00.160 to anti-Semitism in itself, and it shows an irrational hatred. That was a word used by the
00:02:06.260 climate extremists on the left. You're a climate denier, and of course there was no legal penalty
00:02:12.940 for being a climate denier, but you were banned from polite company, and I'm not exaggerating.
00:02:18.240 The BBC and the CBC, two state broadcasters that deeply believe in the theory of man-made global
00:02:24.680 warming, refused to platform deniers, just like they would say they wouldn't platform a
00:02:30.260 Holocaust denier. There was a power in the word. Well, now that word is being expanded to anyone who
00:02:36.940 has mere questions about the very curious case of the Kamloops accusation that there are hundreds of
00:02:45.800 dead bodies outside the residential school. You know what I'm talking about. A couple years ago,
00:02:53.700 ground-penetrating radar, which actually cannot detect people, but rather anomalies, was considered
00:02:59.820 proof that there was, according to Jagmeet Singh, a mass grave outside the residential school there.
00:03:06.860 Our own Drea Humphrey actually made a documentary on the subject called Kamloops,
00:03:12.060 The Buried Truth. Here's a flashback to that video.
00:03:15.660 Well, the remains of 215 children have been found in a mass grave in Canada.
00:03:21.640 Many of you know that just over a year ago, the discovery of the remains of 215 children
00:03:27.600 was found at the Kamloops Indian Residential School at the Tukumlup Shaswamik First Nation.
00:03:32.740 But what if I were to show you that what I just said wasn't true, and that in fact, a year later,
00:03:40.820 not a single body has been found?
00:03:44.120 This mass grave is a painful reminder of the genocide.
00:03:49.820 Hamlin's leaders aren't condemning the burning of churches. No, they're endorsing the burning of churches.
00:03:54.960 A juvenile rib bone that surfaced in the same area.
00:03:57.580 You'd be surprised that a number of people who say, you know, I'm a doctor, I'm a paramedic,
00:04:02.600 and this is definitely a human bone, and it's definitely not.
00:04:06.460 It's like the chief.
00:04:08.640 I couldn't be for you.
00:04:13.680 Well, that's an example of denialism.
00:04:16.740 That's the word being used in the industry of people who want to turn Kamloops into a proof point
00:04:23.600 of a larger genocide against indigenous peoples, and they have called upon the justice minister
00:04:29.880 to make denialism of the Kamloops accusation a crime.
00:04:37.280 It's not a crime to deny the Jewish Holocaust, by the way,
00:04:40.620 but the idea is to make denying this genocide of indigenous people a crime.
00:04:47.280 I'm not sure how you'd do that, but if they were to do it,
00:04:50.480 I know who the first person they would prosecute would be,
00:04:56.360 and that's my old professor, Dr. Tom Flanagan.
00:04:59.240 He has been a skeptic of what he has in the past called the Indian industry.
00:05:04.320 That is, not indigenous people themselves, but rather indigenous and non-indigenous people
00:05:09.340 who have dined out on the subject for decades.
00:05:13.580 If you study transfers to indigenous people and Indian bands in this country,
00:05:18.680 you'll know that much of the money is siphoned off by white liberal bureaucrats
00:05:22.680 and, of course, the chief class.
00:05:25.040 Very little makes it down to grassroots Indians themselves.
00:05:27.900 That's the Indian industry, and imagine having the powerful tool of silencing
00:05:32.680 through prosecution and, therefore, through self-censorship.
00:05:35.980 Any deniers?
00:05:38.680 Well, Dr. Tom has a new book out, co-authored by Chris Champion.
00:05:43.960 The book is called Grave Error, How the Media Misled Us,
00:05:47.320 and the Truth About Indian Residential Schools.
00:05:49.760 And Dr. Tom joins us now from Calgary.
00:05:52.420 Well, I'm talking to you before you're charged and convicted and imprisoned.
00:05:56.900 This may be one of your few interviews,
00:06:00.000 or actually it may be the interview that causes you to be jailed.
00:06:02.440 You're half-joking, of course, but, of course, the other side is not joking.
00:06:05.300 They have been talking about criminalizing what they call denialism,
00:06:12.400 which is strange.
00:06:14.140 I'm not sure what you have to deny to be a denier and to be prosecutable,
00:06:20.620 but I think the whole thing works even if they don't have the answer
00:06:24.300 because it's just designed to scare people into self-censoring, don't you think?
00:06:28.120 I think it is, yeah.
00:06:29.960 And, you know, but fortunately I'm retired.
00:06:33.100 I don't have to worry about losing my livelihood.
00:06:36.300 You know, you go back to the old song,
00:06:39.260 me and Bobby McGee, Janis Joplin,
00:06:42.300 saying freedom is just another thing for nothing left to lose.
00:06:47.660 So I've kind of reached that point.
00:06:49.180 I'm 79 years old.
00:06:50.380 I can say what I want without worrying about, you know, supporting myself, my wife, my children, etc.
00:07:00.560 And so our book, you know, it's a compendium of efforts by about a dozen people who've been working on this issue.
00:07:06.160 And most of us are retired.
00:07:08.160 Most of us are at that point where we have some protection against intimidation.
00:07:13.220 And interestingly, a couple of the younger contributors don't want their names known and they're contributing under pseudonyms.
00:07:21.160 I mean, they're that afraid.
00:07:22.480 This is the first time in more than 50 years of research in Canada that I have encountered a situation of colleagues who are afraid of having their names publicized and want to be, what's the word, want to be anonymous.
00:07:42.480 And we're dealing here, you know, so with pretty serious issues that could have could have consequences.
00:07:47.920 You know, the word genocide is thrown about so casually these days.
00:07:53.340 The chief just former chief justice of the Supreme Court called Canada a genocidal regime.
00:07:59.840 She used that word.
00:08:01.200 Justin Trudeau picked it up.
00:08:02.600 It's now thrown around handily.
00:08:05.280 It's funny because Trudeau, of course, will not call what China is doing in Xinjiang province a genocide.
00:08:12.100 He doesn't want to hurt their feelings, but he condemns Canada as a genocidal regime.
00:08:16.640 Pope Francis himself has said that it has the hallmarks of a genocide.
00:08:22.260 I'm not sure if that's true.
00:08:24.360 I know a few alumni of these Indian residential schools.
00:08:31.320 I think of two people in particular, both of whom said it was not just not bad, but it was a wonderful thing.
00:08:38.600 It put them on a path for success in the modern world.
00:08:43.140 And in fact, one fellow who I interviewed when I was at Sun News said at his family reunions, the entire family would reminisce about the time at these schools.
00:08:53.280 And not one of them had a complaint.
00:08:54.680 I know some Holocaust survivors, many of them are dying now.
00:08:58.680 I've never in my life encountered a Holocaust survivor who ever looked back on their time in Auschwitz or another death camp with fondness.
00:09:08.460 Like, never.
00:09:09.340 Like, there's no doubt about it whatsoever.
00:09:11.200 So to use the word genocide to describe these Indian residential schools in the face of these alumni who said, no, actually, it was sort of great.
00:09:21.740 It taught me life skills.
00:09:24.060 It's that is a shocking appropriation and dilution of the word genocide in my mind and the word denier, too.
00:09:31.300 Yeah, it's the use of the word genocide is it's a tactic of raising the stake, raising the rhetorical stakes, making it more emotional.
00:09:45.020 There's been a trajectory here.
00:09:48.560 Before genocide, we had cultural genocide.
00:09:52.200 That was the term that was used in the conclusion of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission.
00:09:57.860 So they only a few years ago, the TRC explicitly denied that the treatment of Canada's Indians was a genocide.
00:10:06.060 They said it was, however, a cultural genocide, which was really just a synonym for assimilation, allowing Indians to penetrate in a in the larger society.
00:10:19.400 But a few years later, we see people using just the word genocide.
00:10:24.060 So genocide refers to the actual killing of people.
00:10:30.700 So they have to have dead bodies to to support the use of the term.
00:10:35.840 And that's where the Kamloops mythology comes in.
00:10:38.540 The Kamloops announcement appeared to provide the proof of genocide.
00:10:44.080 If there were hundreds of bodies scattered around the residential school and nobody knew about them before, this would be proof of all these deaths.
00:10:54.320 You know, not we now know, though, and the people who did that announcement should have known that what the ground penetrating radar radar was finding was a sewage system.
00:11:08.900 In the 1920s, the school installed a big septic tank, this was before they could connect to city sewage, they installed a big septic tank, and then if you have a septic tank, you have to have a way of dispersing the fluids.
00:11:21.040 And so you use a weeping tile and bury it and create a network of pipes radiating out or tiles radiating out.
00:11:31.540 So those tiles are still in the ground.
00:11:33.200 The system isn't used anymore, but the tiles are still buried in the ground.
00:11:36.740 And so what that ground penetrating radar was finding was probably those tiles.
00:11:42.720 We don't know for sure because the report has never been released, so you can't compare the map, but that's what it looks like.
00:11:51.060 So there's nothing there.
00:11:52.620 No excavation has taken place at Kamloops, where excavations have taken place at a few other sites.
00:11:59.820 Nothing has been discovered.
00:12:01.740 So until some evidence comes up, you just have to say there's nothing there.
00:12:07.400 If you approach this thing as a kind of belief system, you must believe there's deniers who disbelieve the faith, and we must cast them out and punish them.
00:12:17.300 And we don't debate disbelievers because they're, you know, that's a form of blasphemy.
00:12:22.140 We punish disbelievers.
00:12:23.440 We prosecute them.
00:12:24.320 If that's your mindset, you can understand why you would not demand to see proof of, well, let's dig up what the ground penetrating radar saw.
00:12:32.320 Because that would be like saying, well, show me proof that there was a burning bush.
00:12:36.860 Show me proof that the Red Sea was split and the Israelites walked through.
00:12:41.620 I mean, you don't ask for proof if it's a question of faith.
00:12:45.060 But that's very different than what's generally accepted as the scientific method or, you know, historical discovery.
00:12:54.260 Or frankly, if it's a crime that had been committed, you don't take things on faith.
00:12:59.020 You test them against the facts.
00:13:00.880 Here's when our date, Drea Humphrey, by chance, bumped into the chief, and she wouldn't even answer questions about answering questions.
00:13:09.560 Here's a quick throwback to that.
00:13:10.880 Yeah, we're doing an update, and I did reach out to your media a few times, but I haven't heard that.
00:13:16.240 Oh, okay.
00:13:16.760 What's the best way to reach you?
00:13:18.300 Because I've tried for over a year, to be honest, to try to connect for an interview or something.
00:13:23.400 Okay.
00:13:24.440 Well, honestly, I've had done like a million interviews.
00:13:27.900 I bet.
00:13:28.320 I think you were just doing one.
00:13:29.960 And, no, it was just a, a, a, a table.
00:13:33.380 Oh.
00:13:33.600 Oh, okay.
00:13:34.440 But no, I've done a million.
00:13:35.780 Can we get into the museum somehow?
00:13:38.040 No, the museum is shut down.
00:13:39.400 Oh, okay.
00:13:39.680 The museum is actually in this building.
00:13:41.320 Oh, okay.
00:13:41.820 Yes.
00:13:42.100 So, but you can't, that's where the archives are, right?
00:13:45.360 Yeah, but you can't access it.
00:13:46.600 Okay.
00:13:47.120 Yeah.
00:13:47.260 How come?
00:13:47.860 The museum is shut down right now.
00:13:49.360 Like, for, do you know how much longer?
00:13:51.380 No.
00:13:51.700 No, I'm determined at this point.
00:13:54.220 Okay.
00:13:54.480 Where's the best place to get, like, the history, like, to look through archives and things like
00:13:58.960 that right now?
00:14:00.500 Right now, um, that's not my term.
00:14:03.500 Political.
00:14:04.220 Okay.
00:14:04.540 I'm not typical.
00:14:05.340 So, well, I guess.
00:14:06.500 I would have to come back and just find out exactly where, you know, all that stuff is
00:14:10.320 because, like, I know that if you're talking about, like, records, like, whether it's
00:14:14.180 things that we're building here.
00:14:15.660 Right.
00:14:15.860 Uh, and also just in general, the missing element and children.
00:14:19.820 So, those are, but they probably could look in places like, um, the interest of reconciliation.
00:14:26.700 Right.
00:14:27.220 And the main office there is in the bank.
00:14:29.800 Okay.
00:14:30.160 So, there's that place.
00:14:32.280 There's also, you know, contacting the local person.
00:14:34.720 So, that would be, that would be, um, like, we have an individual to ask about the records
00:14:42.540 and the documents, but I know that a lot of that is also confidential.
00:14:45.740 It has to go as a proper process because it's very sensitive information to hold the integrity
00:14:50.240 of the individuals and families.
00:14:51.760 Of course.
00:14:52.280 That would directly impact it.
00:14:53.460 Yeah.
00:14:53.840 And, of course, it also has to be done in a trauma-informed way.
00:14:57.060 Right.
00:14:57.200 So, there's a lot of different protocols and steps that need to place.
00:14:59.900 So, I think, I think this all fits.
00:15:02.180 The fact that it's an emotional accusation of genocide, if you ask for proof, again, that's
00:15:07.920 a form of denialism.
00:15:09.000 It's like someone saying, I don't believe six million died.
00:15:12.880 You know, it's, you, I don't, they're trying to use that same moral and emotional, um, claim.
00:15:19.660 You cannot ask questions about this ground-penetrating radar.
00:15:23.480 You must accept the narrative, even though, actually, you know, when the Allies liberated
00:15:28.840 the concentration camps, they, they saw it.
00:15:31.060 They documented it.
00:15:31.760 They, they filmed it.
00:15:32.660 They actually made locals march through the death camps, uh, local villagers to see what,
00:15:38.180 what had been done.
00:15:39.660 Um, I think it's astonishing, but I think it is absolutely universal within what I call
00:15:45.020 the media party.
00:15:45.840 Other than a handful of independent journalists, Western Standard, True North, us here at Rebel
00:15:50.740 News, I don't know of any mainstream media.
00:15:55.000 Maybe the National Post is an exception, but I don't, I think it is absolutely taken as the
00:16:01.880 new faith, um, in the mainstream media, like the CBC, CTV, Globe and Mail.
00:16:07.620 Um, am I wrong on that?
00:16:10.380 Like, this is the new political faith.
00:16:13.480 No, you're absolutely right.
00:16:15.360 And, um, so this book, it's, uh, it's, it's a compilation of previously published work, uh,
00:16:21.780 by about a dozen authors over the last two years, but they published it in, uh, alternative
00:16:27.200 outlets.
00:16:28.260 The, uh, legacy media were closed to us.
00:16:30.880 They, we tried, but they were uninterested, you know, approaching, uh, mainstream newspapers
00:16:36.060 or university presses, uh, just, uh, absolutely no interest at all.
00:16:41.360 So everything was in, in, uh, outlets like True North, Western Standard, C2C, Quillette,
00:16:48.780 um, Unheard, uh, American Conservative, you know, uh, not part of, uh, the corporate media.
00:16:58.200 It'll be interesting to see what the corporate media does with our book now.
00:17:02.800 Whether they continue to ignore it.
00:17:04.820 They're going to absolutely ignore it.
00:17:05.720 They're not going to tear it apart because that would acknowledge it and maybe, uh, spark
00:17:09.600 some interest in it.
00:17:10.560 They will completely ignore it.
00:17:12.120 You know, Dr. Tom, um, the, the best-selling nonfiction book in Canada last year or this
00:17:18.300 year was, um, Tamara Leach's autobiography called Hold the Line that was the number one
00:17:24.180 bestseller day after day, week after week.
00:17:26.080 And it didn't even get an attack review in the Toronto Star, let alone, I don't even think
00:17:32.300 the Globe, uh, the, the, the National Post acknowledged it.
00:17:34.920 And that's what you do when you hate a book.
00:17:37.420 You don't give it the courtesy or the respect of a review.
00:17:40.840 Uh, you just pretend it doesn't exist.
00:17:42.800 In fact, my question to you is, of course, it's not going to be reviewed.
00:17:46.960 The question is, will they try and ban it on Amazon?
00:17:50.840 And I don't know if you have this information, but I would like to ask you, has the book felt
00:17:54.820 any censorship pressure?
00:17:56.860 Uh, has Amazon showed any skepticism towards that?
00:18:00.020 It's happened to us before.
00:18:01.040 My book, China Virus, was knocked down by Amazon before they reinstated it.
00:18:06.400 Has your book faced any censorship threat like that?
00:18:10.200 Well, I'm not aware that it has.
00:18:12.380 I mean, it's only been on, uh, online now for, what, this is Thursday, the fourth day.
00:18:17.940 Uh, it's been selling well.
00:18:20.040 Um, and of course our marketing is all, you might say, underground marketing, um, not in the
00:18:26.760 legacy media, but, um, it's, uh, it's, it's selling well.
00:18:31.040 Now, whether that will lead to pressures to downgrade it or ban it, I don't know.
00:18:36.480 Uh, we'll have to wait and see.
00:18:38.020 Do you plan on any, doing a book tour or a book launch anywhere in physical space?
00:18:43.840 Because that'll be interesting.
00:18:45.060 Not only who comes out.
00:18:46.480 I don't think so.
00:18:48.220 We haven't had any plans for that so far.
00:18:50.220 It's, it's, it's difficult for me to travel now.
00:18:52.580 Uh, I, I, I can't really leave my wife alone for long periods of time.
00:18:57.060 So, uh, we, we may not be able to do that.
00:19:00.240 So at the present time, we're trying to do the, as I say, underground marketing appearing
00:19:04.880 on alternative media and, you know, grateful for the interview here with Rebel News, uh,
00:19:09.620 sending out mass emails to people's lists, um, getting coverages in print places that are,
00:19:17.180 are interested like C2C and Quillette.
00:19:21.180 Um, so, you know, we're going to reach tens, maybe hundreds of thousands.
00:19:26.760 We're going to reach thousands of people that way, but we don't reach millions.
00:19:30.360 Right.
00:19:30.780 The book is called Grave Error, How the Media Misled Us and the Truth about the Indian Residential
00:19:37.080 Schools.
00:19:37.940 It's available on Amazon for now and hopefully forever, but we have some experience in cancel
00:19:44.000 culture and de-platforming.
00:19:45.400 Um, what I'm worried about is academia, that this is now, um, just like you cannot dispute
00:19:56.060 the faith when it comes to global warming, you'll be called a denier.
00:19:59.820 Uh, I would imagine that any academia, any academic scholarship on this matter is predetermined,
00:20:07.320 uh, and you'll get grants for saying the right things, just like you'll get a climate grant
00:20:12.100 for saying the right things.
00:20:13.560 And so not only is it career suicide to talk about these things, but on the other side, it's
00:20:19.440 a career advancement and lots of government cash.
00:20:22.020 If you follow these ideological, uh, paths, uh, I'm worried that we will absolutely in
00:20:30.580 an Orwellian way rewrite history.
00:20:33.820 For those who know the book 1984 by George Orwell, the day job of the hero Winston Smith
00:20:39.120 was to cut out old newspaper articles from the archives, throw them out and glue in an
00:20:45.780 updated, revised history so often that after a while, no one actually knew what the truth
00:20:51.660 was.
00:20:52.180 I mean, I, I'm worried that, you know, the, the generation of indigenous people who went
00:20:59.260 to these residential schools is getting old and they will die in a period of time.
00:21:04.320 And soon there will be no one else to say, Hey, I actually went there and I'm indigenous.
00:21:09.440 So don't try and call me racist.
00:21:11.560 And here's what I liked about it.
00:21:13.540 And again, I've had those conversations, including on TV, but those people like Holocaust survivors
00:21:18.940 will be gone after a certain point of time.
00:21:21.600 And then it'll all be hand in the hands of the revisionist historians.
00:21:25.320 Yeah.
00:21:26.220 Yeah.
00:21:26.440 My observation of the academic community here is that, uh, um, most of them are just keeping
00:21:32.460 their heads down and ignoring it.
00:21:33.940 And then you've got the, uh, the few enthusiasts who are pushing the denialist line and they're
00:21:40.520 funded by the federal government.
00:21:41.800 Um, and then there's, you know, I, I can't think, you know, maybe, maybe somebody will
00:21:50.540 appear, but I can't think of a currently employed historian or somebody in a related field, uh,
00:21:59.200 who is standing up to challenge the Kamloops orthodoxy.
00:22:05.360 Um, maybe a couple of lawyers will like Bruce party and so forth, but, um, historians, political
00:22:13.120 scientists, sociologists, people who should be saying, Hey, this is utter nonsense.
00:22:17.360 Uh, they're just ignoring it.
00:22:20.420 Um, whether they're disgusted by it or afraid is some combination of that.
00:22:27.840 Uh, but they're, they're just ignoring it.
00:22:30.220 And, uh, and of course there are many who will believe it because it fits in with a generally
00:22:35.200 woke outlook about the world being dominated by white male oppressors and, uh, everybody
00:22:41.980 else being in victim groups.
00:22:44.320 Um, so yeah, the performance of, uh, the academic community is not encouraging.
00:22:50.460 When you, as I say, I can't remember a single member who is still employed.
00:22:57.920 The people that I know who are challenging this myth, uh, from Kamloops are all retired.
00:23:03.900 I can't remember.
00:23:05.340 The one member who was employed was, uh, Frances Woodhouse and she, and she got fired, uh, from
00:23:12.120 Mount Royal university.
00:23:13.200 So everybody else, uh, I think, uh, uh, drew lessons from that.
00:23:18.080 Hmm.
00:23:18.600 It's, it's interesting.
00:23:21.200 I, um, I wonder if there are any indigenous people themselves, if there's anyone from within
00:23:26.160 the community who would have the moral authority and the, the aesthetic ability to repel cheap
00:23:33.360 accusations of racism.
00:23:34.780 Uh, I mean, sometimes to say certain things, you have to be from the community itself.
00:23:40.280 Otherwise you'll be condemned as a hater.
00:23:42.100 Are there any contrarian voices within the indigenous community, either scholarly or
00:23:48.600 just ordinary folks on a reserve somewhere who say, no, that didn't happen.
00:23:52.320 Or, or are they just thinking, this is not our fight.
00:23:54.900 This is a white man's, uh, academic liberal battle in universities.
00:23:58.880 It actually has nothing to do with us.
00:24:01.080 Uh, just let them quarrel amongst themselves in the faculty lounge.
00:24:05.260 Are there any folks in the indigenous community?
00:24:08.160 Uh, I, I mean, I imagine there are, but I'm not aware of them.
00:24:12.200 Um, they have any, nobody sent me an email, said, Hey, Tom, right on, keep out, keep out.
00:24:16.660 Um, you know, previous contacts I had in the, uh, in, in that world had just gone silent on
00:24:24.640 the issue.
00:24:25.060 So I don't know.
00:24:25.960 Um, I, as you pointed out at an earlier stage, there were people who had, uh, been in the schools
00:24:32.280 and talked about their positive experiences, but it's been a long time.
00:24:36.640 Um, uh, the last school closed in 1996, but almost all of them had closed prior to that.
00:24:43.760 So, uh, you know, there haven't been very many schools now for 30 or 40 years.
00:24:50.500 Um, and so there aren't that many, uh, graduates of the schools around.
00:24:55.940 So, um, uh, and of course the, the people that were in the schools were, um, lured into,
00:25:04.920 uh, magnifying any uncomfortable experiences they had because they could get money for
00:25:10.380 telling stories, uh, in front of the, um, Truth and Reconciliation Commission.
00:25:16.120 Uh, everybody who attended a school got $10,000 a year just for being there.
00:25:21.380 But beyond that, if you could allege, um, physical or sexual abuse, you could hit the jackpot.
00:25:29.160 You know, you could go up over a hundred thousand dollars for that, depending on what it was.
00:25:32.980 Uh, you could get an additional a hundred thousand plus.
00:25:37.640 So, you know, everybody who had been through the schools in more recent times was encouraged
00:25:43.160 to, uh, tell a story about how awful it was.
00:25:45.880 Hmm.
00:25:47.200 A hundred thousand dollars is extremely compelling.
00:25:49.920 Uh, if all you have to do is tell the, um, white bureaucrats.
00:25:54.020 Yes.
00:25:54.520 Yes.
00:25:54.800 Um, you know, I, I was earlier this, uh, fall, I was in Australia and New Zealand, spent a little
00:26:02.940 bit of time in New Zealand.
00:26:04.400 Uh, it was the first time I had met any Maoris, which is the indigenous people in that country.
00:26:10.040 And, uh, maybe it were just the Maoris I met under the leadership of, uh, Brian Temecki,
00:26:16.320 who's, who's very Christian as a, uh, collection of churches.
00:26:20.400 And, um, he's a COVID skeptic.
00:26:23.640 I'd call him a right wing.
00:26:24.580 He's pro-Israel.
00:26:25.560 Like there's, there's this whole strong, proud Maori movement.
00:26:31.200 I've seen it in Hawaii also, sort of Hawaiian national pride.
00:26:36.360 My favorite, I haven't been to Hawaii in years, but I, I, whenever I go, I remember seeing
00:26:41.140 huge pickup trucks with two big flagpoles and flags, the American flag and the Hawaii, the
00:26:48.140 kingdom of Hawaii flag.
00:26:49.920 Like there are some places around the world where the indigenous culture is proud and successful
00:26:57.260 and actually cool.
00:26:58.580 And talking to some Maoris in New Zealand, you know, aesthetically in society, Maoris are
00:27:06.020 sports heroes and regular ordinary folks.
00:27:10.420 It's like, it's a celebrity status and it's cool.
00:27:12.980 And everyone wants to be like the Maori.
00:27:15.220 Like I really felt that in, in New Zealand and there was a, it wasn't, you know, obsessing
00:27:22.420 over loss or grief.
00:27:24.820 It was, although I would imagine they have their stories as well, but it, it wasn't dwelling
00:27:32.040 on victimhood.
00:27:33.380 It was, I mean, there is some of that, but I couldn't help but see both in Hawaii and
00:27:38.980 in New Zealand and indigenous social culture of optimism, strength, pride, can do attitude,
00:27:47.980 and, you know, sports success, popular success.
00:27:53.620 Um, and I, I really wished that that were the dominant political culture in Canada.
00:28:02.920 Now, maybe it is on some Indian beds, but I don't think that's the political culture being
00:28:08.400 projected by the Indian industry or by the Department of Indigenous Affairs.
00:28:14.020 What do you make of what I've just said?
00:28:15.300 Yeah, well, that's very interesting.
00:28:18.340 And, you know, the closest thing in Canada, uh, it's not really very close, but the closest
00:28:24.520 thing would be the movement of, uh, mainly First Nations, but it includes some Métis as
00:28:32.160 well to participate in the natural resource industries, particularly oil and gas.
00:28:36.580 And so they're, they've created new organizations and they're, uh, and they're interested in, uh,
00:28:42.800 building a better life for themselves and their people.
00:28:44.780 And they're not particularly interested in pursuing old complaints, but the trouble is
00:28:49.680 that they're the, the, the cause of natural resources and particularly oil and gas is generally
00:28:55.980 unpopular in Canadian public opinion.
00:28:58.460 Uh, so by allying themselves with the oil industry, uh, it doesn't really radiate out
00:29:07.460 very well, uh, to, uh, to the rest of Canada.
00:29:11.380 No, some Indian sports heroes would, uh, would do more, uh, if we could, if we could get more
00:29:18.600 of them or Indian entertainers whose entertainment goes mainstream.
00:29:22.740 I mean, there is a sort of an Indian entertainment industry, but it tends to appeal only to other
00:29:27.660 Indians.
00:29:28.800 Um, so if you could broaden that out, uh, that would do more.
00:29:34.980 So, yeah, I'd like to see that happen, but I would say it's not really happening in Canada
00:29:39.640 right now, partly because the government itself has put so much emphasis on victimhood.
00:29:46.500 That shouldn't have happened.
00:29:48.020 The truth and reconciliation commission is supposed to bring people together.
00:29:52.200 It's not supposed to, uh, make people even more concerned about grievances of the past,
00:29:59.120 but that's what happened in Canada.
00:30:01.280 The, now there's a whole story there, truth and reconciliation commission, how the original
00:30:05.900 commissioners, uh, resigned.
00:30:07.760 They couldn't get along with each other.
00:30:09.040 They resigned.
00:30:09.680 And then Harper had to replace them on short notice.
00:30:13.240 Um, and things went south after that.
00:30:16.940 Um, if we'd had a commission that was doing its job properly, maybe we'd be in a better
00:30:22.000 position today.
00:30:22.840 But the commission as appointed, uh, interpreted its mandate as, uh, emphasizing victimhood and,
00:30:30.440 um, seeking restitution.
00:30:33.580 Uh, well, even they didn't quite use the word reparations, but that's what it amounts to
00:30:38.760 is seeking reparations, uh, for the past.
00:30:43.520 You know, I, um, I was in Inovic about a decade ago and I met a Métis man who was talking
00:30:50.100 about how white liberals, uh, told his grandfather, you can't be a trapper because the fur industry
00:30:57.240 is, um, you know, immoral and unethical.
00:31:00.760 And then they told his dad, you can't be into forestry because that's against the environment.
00:31:06.500 And now they're telling him you can't be into oil and gas.
00:31:10.140 And, and so, you know, he's starting to think, well, you know what, maybe, maybe it's not us.
00:31:15.080 Maybe it's you.
00:31:15.660 Maybe you just don't like, maybe you don't like it.
00:31:18.080 I'll try and dig up the clip of that.
00:31:19.520 And it was quite a moment that I saw when I was in Inovic.
00:31:23.420 Um, I mean, that is a place where, uh, and especially for the North and Tuktoyaktuk,
00:31:29.600 it's very indigenous.
00:31:30.640 I mean, there are some, uh, white folks up there, of course, but, um, that's where it
00:31:35.720 would be wonderful to see, uh, entrepreneurialism and industry.
00:31:40.560 Um, and I think there could be industry in the far North of oil and gas, but not if Greenpeace
00:31:45.080 has anything to say about it.
00:31:46.320 Well, listen, I'm depressed by your book, to be honest.
00:31:48.720 I'm sad about it.
00:31:50.100 I know a little bit about the subject because our own Drea Humphrey did a documentary on
00:31:53.720 the subject.
00:31:54.620 I, um, you know, to see Jagmeet Singh, and I'm going to play you the clip right now of
00:31:58.560 when he uses the phrase mass graves, because that implies there was like a massacre and
00:32:03.360 then bodies dumped into a pit and covered up.
00:32:05.660 It really, it was so factually false, but Jagmeet Singh really is so dumb.
00:32:10.460 He could be an honorary Trudeau cabinet minister.
00:32:12.520 Like he gives Samus O'Regan a run for the money.
00:32:14.700 Here's, here's Jagmeet Singh with the lie that was heard around the world.
00:32:18.040 Take a look.
00:32:18.660 And it hurts indigenous people.
00:32:19.960 It is hurting them right now.
00:32:21.480 So there is a lot that can be done.
00:32:23.200 And I think it has to be very clear that Canada, as a nation, committed genocide against indigenous
00:32:29.980 people.
00:32:31.000 That is a fact.
00:32:32.240 Look at all the evidence.
00:32:33.440 It is clear that the goal was to eradicate a people.
00:32:36.040 Well, I don't want to blame just Jagmeet Singh.
00:32:37.740 I mean, it was half of them.
00:32:38.540 Here's another clip from Drea's documentary showing the media lies.
00:32:41.820 Take a look.
00:32:42.240 And I read that first press release from the Kamloops Swamik First Nation ban that had
00:32:48.160 the heart wrenching claim that 215 former students' remains from the Kamloops Indian
00:32:55.980 Residential School had been confirmed to be discovered.
00:32:59.520 I, like many across the world, grieved.
00:33:03.320 And it was being claimed to have been discovered by politicians and media outlets alike to be
00:33:08.120 in a mass grave.
00:33:10.140 I want to talk about the heartbreaking news.
00:33:12.240 The 215 children were found buried at the former Kamloops Residential School.
00:33:18.480 215 children.
00:33:21.140 Think of their loving families that they were ripped away from.
00:33:25.000 Think of the communities that never saw them again.
00:33:28.420 Think of their hopes, their dreams, their potential.
00:33:32.580 Of all they would have accomplished, all they would have become.
00:33:36.540 All of that was taken away.
00:33:38.520 I struggled to find words to express my horror and grief at the discovery of these remains
00:33:46.400 of 215 First Nations children.
00:33:49.400 I realized it's because there are no words that can do justice to those children and the countless
00:33:57.060 others who died alone and scared, far from home, far from the families who love them.
00:34:03.360 This weekend, my nine-year-old son, Jack, asked me why the flags were lowered to half-mast in Ottawa.
00:34:10.240 I had the difficult task of explaining to him the terrible news of the graves of children found at the site of a residential school.
00:34:18.760 Kids aren't supposed to die at school, Dad, he said to me.
00:34:24.080 As a parent, it is devastating to think of 215 children.
00:34:28.240 This mass grave is a painful reminder of the genocide.
00:34:33.760 And what we have to commit to is that in face and light of this genocide, Canada has to make some real tough decisions.
00:34:42.420 There have been rumors of some kind of mass grave on this site for decades.
00:34:48.040 Yeah, I think it's just a very strange thing.
00:34:50.620 I mean, it's one of those things where it's just taken on faith.
00:34:59.720 And if you dare to challenge that, people can't answer other than to lash out and demonize you.
00:35:07.200 And I think that's a real shame.
00:35:08.760 I don't know.
00:35:09.900 I look forward to reading it.
00:35:11.200 I've read the preamble that you and Chris Champion wrote.
00:35:14.720 The book is called Grave Error, How the Media Misled Us and the Truth About Indian Residential Schools.
00:35:20.580 I find this subject very depressing.
00:35:23.400 And it's not because I'm hostile to indigenous people.
00:35:27.040 It's sort of the opposite, actually.
00:35:28.120 I hate the fact that the official government-directed ideology is one of victimhood and sorrow and loss rather than opportunity, growth, happiness, and a future orientation.
00:35:41.440 And I'm glad you've written the book and hopefully will not be censored.
00:35:45.780 Last word to you, Dr. Tom.
00:35:46.860 Well, I take your point about feeling depressed about it.
00:35:52.280 But there is, I hope, an optimistic side to this because we're bringing the critique together.
00:35:58.080 However, we've assembled the evidence as to why all this victimhood talk is wrong and the claims of genocide are absurd.
00:36:07.840 So maybe it won't have an impact immediately, but we think that we're laying the groundwork for a future critique of that, of these errors.
00:36:20.180 I guess you have to have a little – well, I like to say I'm a conservative, so I'm never optimistic, but I'm always hopeful.
00:36:25.920 Last question just before we go.
00:36:29.300 I said we were done, but I just got one more question that popped into my head because you used the word conservative.
00:36:34.380 And if polls are to be believed, Pierre Polyev will become the next prime minister.
00:36:40.380 Now, there's still lots of time before Trudeau has to call the election, but I saw the latest poll put the conservatives almost 20 points ahead.
00:36:47.860 And there is no region of the country, including in Quebec, where the liberals lead.
00:36:52.160 And the latest projection I saw was in British Columbia, not a single seat for the liberals, which used to be one of their strongholds.
00:37:01.580 Ironically, when Jody Wilson-Raybould was in cabinet before Trudeau threw her out for being too ethical, I think.
00:37:08.240 I don't want to be too optimistic.
00:37:13.680 I take your point about being pessimistic but hopeful.
00:37:16.660 But I think it is a real chance that Pierre Polyev becomes the next prime minister and with it a new Indian minister, a new mindset perhaps.
00:37:28.180 Do you think that the conservative party under Pierre Polyev is manifestly different?
00:37:35.080 Or is this one of those third rails of politics that Polyev would say, you know what?
00:37:40.940 I'm not going to expend political capital on this because I'll be called a racist and the liberals will try and make it stick.
00:37:47.800 I've got other things that are a higher priority, like the economy.
00:37:51.960 I'm just not going to get involved here.
00:37:53.980 What do you think the future holds if Pierre Polyev becomes the prime minister?
00:38:01.800 Well, you know, my limitations as a pundit were always that I could not foretell the future.
00:38:07.020 So, but I'll take a stab at it.
00:38:10.540 Based on the past performance of the previous conservative prime minister, Stephen Harper,
00:38:15.200 he put his priorities elsewhere and didn't really try to rein in the Indian industry very much.
00:38:25.740 He did a couple of things like trying to introduce annual reporting of Indian bands with how they're spending their money.
00:38:33.440 But by and large, he left the Indian industry alone.
00:38:37.180 And he even did actually a lot of damage, I don't think intentionally, but with his apology about the residential schools
00:38:47.180 and then the appointment of the TRC, Truth and Reconciliation Commission, he set in motion the claims industry and, you know, new rounds of victimhood.
00:39:00.940 So, I guess my hope for, I see when I look at Pierre Polyev's leadership up to this point,
00:39:09.320 he has really tried to avoid any questions about indigenous peoples.
00:39:14.660 I can understand that because Canada has huge problems that affect the whole country.
00:39:18.960 Inflation, housing, things like that.
00:39:21.100 That's what's going to get him elected.
00:39:23.140 And talking a lot about indigenous peoples is only going to upset things.
00:39:28.400 So, my hope would be that if he does get elected, that at least he doesn't make things worse.
00:39:34.340 He turns down the dial on all the Trudevian claims of victimhood.
00:39:44.160 And maybe he can make some amendments that will be modestly beneficial.
00:39:50.120 But I don't look for any major change to happen even from a conservative government because that does bring forth all the catcalls of racism.
00:40:04.220 And, you know, if you're in government, you're going to say to yourself, I don't need this.
00:40:08.380 I'm going to talk about housing.
00:40:12.260 I'm going to talk about inflation.
00:40:15.040 I'm going to talk about the cost of living and, you know, all these widely popular issues.
00:40:22.480 So, I just, you know, hope that things don't get any worse.
00:40:26.540 That's how I would put it.
00:40:28.000 And dial back some of the extreme stuff that has taken place.
00:40:34.960 You know, shocking rise in expenditures, for example.
00:40:38.100 You know, we now spend substantially more on the indigenous spending envelope than we do on the Canadian forces.
00:40:44.220 Where's all the money going?
00:40:48.600 You know, there's room for cutting that back and reallocation.
00:40:52.340 But that won't amount to, you know, like major things that could – people write about major changes.
00:41:01.200 But we're just so politically blockaded on any of them.
00:41:06.460 I don't see them happening.
00:41:09.720 So, that's a true conservative perspective.
00:41:11.820 Let's hope it doesn't get any worse.
00:41:13.180 Yeah, yeah, fair enough.
00:41:14.900 Well, listen, pleasure to spend some time with you one more time.
00:41:17.260 The name of the book is Grave Error, How the Media Misled Us and the Truth About Indian Residential Schools.
00:41:23.240 Available on Amazon.
00:41:25.060 We've been talking with Dr. Tom Flanagan.
00:41:27.860 Stay with us.
00:41:28.920 My final thoughts are next.
00:41:30.160 It's tough to talk about things like that because you want to respond to emotional issues emotionally.
00:41:49.880 If someone says, I'm hurting, I've been hard done by.
00:41:52.400 And you can see with your own eyes the poverty and the social dysfunction, the crime, the addiction issues.
00:41:59.140 You see that.
00:42:00.260 And only someone with a heart of stone would not respond with love and the way we show love in our modern society with money.
00:42:07.060 But I think the more money we spend, especially if it's tied to a grievance mentality, I don't think that's fixing many problems in society.
00:42:14.400 It doesn't fix drug addiction on the streets of Vancouver.
00:42:16.780 I don't think it would fix dysfunction on an Indian reserve.
00:42:20.520 In fact, a lot of the problems in Indian reserves come from the Indian Act and its condescension.
00:42:25.640 I regret that we don't have the same inspirational, entrepreneurial, indigenous culture that I have seen in other places.
00:42:33.020 I mentioned in the interview the Hawaiian nationalism.
00:42:36.460 But they're both American flags and kingdom of Hawaii flags.
00:42:40.840 And that's sort of what I love best about it.
00:42:43.140 And Hawaiian culture is sort of cool.
00:42:45.860 Surf culture, athleticism, sporty, being outdoors.
00:42:51.320 It's sort of cool.
00:42:53.120 Same thing with the Maoris.
00:42:55.120 Cool, aesthetically beautiful.
00:42:56.800 Sports, the haka, strength.
00:42:59.060 Of course, both of those indigenous peoples have some grievances as well.
00:43:04.160 But they don't seem to dominate.
00:43:06.940 And in fact, the Maori were often against the white-driven attempt to have a whole level of affirmative action in their parliament lately.
00:43:15.860 I just wish we could get some of that positivity in Canada.
00:43:20.800 But, you know, the phrase Indian industry, I don't know if you're even allowed to say that without being prosecuted anymore.
00:43:25.880 But there are a lot of people who make a lot of money off of the grievances and the sorrow.
00:43:32.280 It's like the drug industry.
00:43:34.480 And by drug, I mean these safe injection sites.
00:43:37.520 As you may have seen, our reporters themselves have been attacked by the safe injection health authority types if we dare to criticize it.
00:43:47.600 I think a lot of the poverty industry in white Canada is the same way, too.
00:43:52.600 They make a lot of money off of problems.
00:43:54.680 They don't really want those problems solved.
00:43:56.900 Well, that's the show for today.
00:43:59.720 Until tomorrow, actually.
00:44:01.220 Until Monday.
00:44:02.560 On behalf of all of us here at Rebel World Headquarters, to you at home, good night and keep fighting for freedom.
00:44:07.320 But before you go, make sure you vote for the Rebel Viewers' Choice Awards.
00:44:12.940 That's where you get to choose who the best rebel is.
00:44:15.880 Go to the website viewerschoiceawards.ca and vote now.
00:44:22.420 Who do you love?
00:44:23.540 David Benzies, Sheila Gunn-Reed, Drea Humphrey, Alexa LaVoy, Avi Yamini.
00:44:27.960 I'm not going to list all our teams, but they're all there.
00:44:30.780 Vote now, because we're going to announce the winner on Tuesday.
00:44:34.640 All right.
00:44:34.960 Good night.
00:44:35.240 Good night.