SHEILA GUNN REID ｜ Acute care manager in Alberta speaks out against vaccine passports, pandemic response
Episode Stats
Length
1 hour and 2 minutes
Words per Minute
166.28975
Summary
Debbie Carrot is the wife of United We Roll founder Glenn Carrot, who is also running to be the mayor of Innisfail, Alberta. She works as a manager for Alberta Health Services, and she's joining me today to explain to me what prompted her to write a letter to her superiors opposing the vaccine mandate for Alberta health care workers.
Transcript
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Oh hey Rebels, it's me Sheila Gunn-Reed and you're listening to a free audio only recording
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of my weekly Wednesday night show The Gun Show, however this is the internet so you
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Now tonight my guest is somebody that you absolutely need to hear from.
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You might recognize the last name because she is the wife of United We Roll founder
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Glenn Carrot who's also running to be the mayor in Innisfail, Alberta.
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She works as a manager for Alberta Health Services and she's joining me today to explain to me
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what prompted her to write a letter to her superiors opposing the vaccine mandate for
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Alberta Health Services workers but also in her letter she broke down the failings of
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the pandemic response by Alberta Health Services and she might know a thing or two about this
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as an ICU manager but also as a former paramedic.
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Now if you like listening to the show then I promise you're going to love watching it
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Just go to rebelnewsplus.com to become a member today and now please enjoy this very important free audio only version of my show.
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An Alberta Health Services manager puts her career on the line to tell us why she opposes forced vaccinations
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for people who work within our health care system.
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I'm Sheila Gunn-Reed and you're watching The Gunn Show.
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You are about to meet one very brave woman who might lose her job just to tell you the truth about what she sees
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Problems regarding capacity issues, government mismanagement, and forced inoculations.
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She is a manager in health care who started off her career as a paramedic.
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Actually, she is so credentialed that she forgot to mention some of them in our interview.
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Besides being a former paramedic, a registered nurse, and intensive care manager,
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she also has an advanced nursing certificate in leadership and health system transformation
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Her name is Debbie Carrot and she works at the Red Deer Hospital.
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And her personal integrity has led her to decide enough is enough.
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If it means destroying the career that she loves and that she's worked so hard for to defend human rights,
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Friends, this is a very long interview, but every single bit of it is important.
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And I want to tell you before we get started that we at Rebel News will do everything we can
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to support Debbie legally in her fight against forced vaccinations for herself,
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You can support our fight at fightvaccinepassports.com.
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Unions have abandoned these people, but we are here to help, all of us together.
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Joining me now from her home in Innisfail is Debbie Carrot.
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Debbie, let's get this out of the way right away.
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So I am fighting government tyranny, fighting the lockdown, standing up for the rights of Albertans.
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And I wish that I could have done more and be more vocal up until this point,
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but I felt I was in a difficult position at work.
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But with the most recent policy, I'm no longer holding my thoughts and my views,
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So just to be completely transparent, I've fully supported Glenn through everything that he's done so far.
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Sure, you know, and we all have our issues, right?
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Now you are standing up for the rights of health care workers.
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Now, you're not just some, you know, and not to say that there's anything wrong with being a nurse
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or being someone who works in custodial in the hospital, but you have a, like your entire career is in health care.
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Give us a, I mean, I read your sort of a synopsis of your CV,
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but give us a brief rundown of how long you've been in health care and the different positions that you've held.
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When I was five years old, I decided I wanted to be a needle nurse.
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I'm not sure what a needle nurse is, but that's what I wanted to be.
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So throughout my entire education through grade school, I knew I wanted to be a medical professional.
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I narrowed that down when I was in grade nine to wanting to be a paramedic.
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So that's what I did when I graduated from high school is there's different levels in EMS in the province.
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So there was an EMT and a paramedic, which is now called a primary care paramedic and an advanced care paramedic.
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We now have an extra level, which is called an EMR, which didn't exist when I started.
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I've worked in various areas in our province, Northern Alberta mostly.
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And then I returned to school to become a paramedic, which I also worked for many years in and was registered in.
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The time came when I felt like I needed to do something different for many reasons.
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And so I went back to school to become a registered nurse.
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And so I have my Bachelor of Science in Nursing.
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And I've been a registered nurse for since 2011.
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I've worked in the emergency department in the ICU.
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And I've been in a unit manager position for over four years now.
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So you are one of those ICU nurses that Jason Kenney tells me is currently overwhelmed.
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What was it like working in the ICU before the pandemic?
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Was it always sort of a state of rationed care in there?
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So the ICU, I mean, there's certainly peaks and valleys of when we have more patients and when we don't have as many patients.
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There seems to be themes on what types of patients we get.
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Red Deer Hospital has been overcapacity for at least 10 years.
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I want to make it very clear that I wholeheartedly know that COVID is a very serious condition for some people.
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I know that some people become very sick from it.
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I know that there are some longstanding issues that occur afterwards, and I know some people die from it.
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I also know other things that are being shared that I don't feel are true and that are very concerning.
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So in the ICU, yes, I worked there when we were having H1N1-ish people with H1N1 influenza, where you're wearing N95 masks, and it's certainly an infectious risk.
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Now, what is the policy that came down from Alberta Health Services that prompted you to say,
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I have to put a name to a face to the fight here.
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So that policy is when they mandated the vaccine for all health care workers, for all AHS employees, regardless if you work in a hospital or you even work with the public.
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Every single person they have decided needs to have this vaccine, which is the only vaccine that you have to have to work in the hospital is rubella.
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They recommend many other vaccines, and I have been vaccinated.
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I've been vaccinated for everything on their list, influenza, hep B, you know, everything up until this.
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And I am, well, I'm angry that they think they can make decisions for health care workers, for pregnant health care workers or pregnant Alberta Health Services employees, breastfeeding Alberta Health Services employees.
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And up until the point that I received that email, I had said, no, they can't do that.
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And also, to be very clear, I got that email at the same time every other person who works for Alberta Health Services got it.
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And then I had staff members who had a lot of questions and concerns.
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I reached out to our human relation department.
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And I said, what is it that I'm supposed to be saying to people who have these concerns?
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I told them what I was telling them, that they should go to their unions, that they should write letters, that they should express their concerns.
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And the response I got was that, yes, you can tell them that.
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You know, what I'm hearing from healthcare workers, and the union actually released a statement, the public union here in Alberta, they said, no, we're fine with this.
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So they're siding with the employer over the dues-paying union members.
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But, you know, usually the union stands up for the worker, at least that's what they tell me, not so in this case.
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And I'm old enough to remember when the union stood up for the rights of healthcare workers to not be mandated to take the influenza vaccine.
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And yet they are somehow just noticeably absent, or in this case, siding with the employer when it comes to the COVID vaccine, which is a lot more experimental than the yearly influenza vaccine.
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And I was, when I saw the email, I had a suspicion that the unions must be agreeing, because the unions do control very much of what AHS does for their staff members.
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I can't put a disciplinary letter or a letter of warning into a staff member's file without it being reaped, particularly from Yuna.
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So I, and when I said to my staff members who are coming to me with concerns, go to your union, I was like, oh, good.
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Because, you know, I've, I've been, I've had concerns with the union when I feel that there's staff members who are not safe to practice.
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I'm grieved, I'm grieved when there's evidence that whatever discipline is coming forward is warranted, and it's grieved, and it's expensive, and it's frustrating.
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Um, so I thought that that was good advice for the staff members, but apparently it's not, because their unions are not standing up for them, and I do not understand why.
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Now, the unions aren't standing up for them, but you are.
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You fired off a lengthy, well-written letter to your higher-ups in the public health supply chain.
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Um, I, I'm, I'm at a point where I feel like, I, it's, I don't feel like this is my choice any longer to advocate, um, against this mandate.
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I feel like it's the only thing that I can do, and it's right.
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I am not fearful of losing my job, um, because I feel like I don't have a choice.
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This is, this is the only thing that I can do, um, ethically, morally, um, to follow my values.
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This is so wrong that, um, I, I'm not quitting my job right now.
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I will see how this goes, but quite honestly, I'm, I don't want to work for AHS.
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I don't want to work for an organization that I no longer trust or respect.
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And again, to make it very clear, right up until the day I got that email, I see things from multiple sides.
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I advocate for my staff members for their, um, well-being and their safety and their mental health and, and what their work conditions are like.
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Um, my job is all-encompassing for needing to look at every area like that.
00:14:37.780
I, I see many, many systematic issues, which I put in my letter.
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Um, of course, when I got the response from AHS that none of that was addressed, um, nor is my concerns when I'm sending it up to, um, senior leaders right now for the issues that are going on.
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That they are still doing nothing about all they're saying is COVID is overwhelming our system.
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Um, so right now I am advocating for, um, staff members.
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I'm advocating for the safety and health of the people in our province, because I am not fearful of COVID.
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Now let's touch on some of the things that you addressed in your letter.
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Um, maybe if we could pull out three key points.
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I know one of the things that you talked about in there was that, you know, the sort of the ethics that you have to operate under and that have guided your career in healthcare.
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So tell us a little bit about the nuts and bolts of your concerns in that letter.
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So the, the ethics part, um, you know, our job is to take care of people who come into the hospital and people who need us.
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And we take care of all people, um, regardless of your choices that you've made in your life.
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So there are people who make healthy choices and they come to the hospital and there's some people who have made some unhealthy choices and come to the hospital.
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Um, my job as a healthcare professional is to take care of you with compassion and with empathy and with respect and with safety, um, regardless of why you're there.
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And if you listen to people's life stories, which is when I worked in the ICU, it was amazing to me to have conversations when we extubated people.
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So they were able to talk to us and find out their story on how they got to where they are.
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So people who have, um, addiction issues, it's not that they had this fantastic life.
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I mean, there are people who had a great life and they made a decision to try an illicit drug and then started down a different pathway, but they've got sad stories.
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They've got, um, childhood things that have happened to them that make me think, well, if that happened to me, I may choose to take illicit drugs.
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We need to think of our patients of the story and their journey and where they got to and help them wherever they are.
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So as, uh, our, the Canadian Nurses Association code of ethics, we need to promote and respect informed decision-making, which is we're not allowing people to do right now.
00:17:15.220
Um, when we're mandating a vaccine, um, I won't get into all of the reasons why I don't think this vaccine is necessary or should be forced upon people.
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Um, but if we're, we're not promoting, respecting informed decision-making, we do that for every single patient who comes into the hospital, but we're not doing that for the people who work for Alberta health services.
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Um, we need to maintain privacy and confidentiality.
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Um, is my privacy and confidentiality assured when I go to a restaurant and they ask for my vaccine passport?
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It's none of your business, my personal information.
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Um, we are, we are sharing information, tidbits, tidbits of information with the entire world.
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And then the entire world has their opinion and they start judging people and they're mistreating people.
00:18:08.020
Um, there's lots of catchphrases like I trust the science and, um, uh, the science is clear and I'm listening to the experts.
00:18:17.860
Yes. Okay. Well, it's what they're doing right now is a marketing ploy.
00:18:21.860
So if you look at your shampoo bottle and it says, uh, rated the best shampoo.
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Okay. Oh, good. This is rated the best shampoo. I'm going to choose this one.
00:18:30.540
Well, there's lots it's marketing. Who was it rated by and rated the best shampoo for what?
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So that's what we're doing with COVID right now is people are, I'm listening to the experts.
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Okay. Well, I'm listening to the experts as well.
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And I feel like I'm listening to an expert right now, by the way.
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I just, you know, people are just taking these stances and they're firm and hard and they don't
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understand that we've had infectious diseases in our society forever, forever. But what we're not
00:19:02.620
doing is sharing with you all the stats. Like, do you know how many people have Staphylococcus aureus
00:19:08.820
right now? No, you don't. Nor does anybody else in the world because we do not test millions of people
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over and over again, and then tell you about it. Right. Um, Staph A infections, very dangerous,
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you know, um, necrotizing fasciitis. It kills people. You can lose limbs. There's lots of bad
00:19:27.220
things out there. C diff, um, even norovirus, but we don't, you know what, when people are at home
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and they're vomiting, they have diarrhea for 24 to 48 hours. We're not saying get to a testing center
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right away and let's see what that is. So people are in a heightened state for, for things that
00:19:45.360
we shouldn't be telling, you know what, if it's a problem for hospitals, then tell us the hospital
00:19:51.120
numbers. Um, if it's a problem in ICUs, then, you know, tell us that, but you need to tell us all of
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the details and where are they getting these numbers from? Because I have to fill out a report. Um,
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it's, it's gone, you know, every day to weekly, we're back to every day. It's called a hotspot
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report where I'm reporting the number of people who are in the hospital, um, who have tested positive
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for COVID. Um, the number of new people since I last reported and the number of staff members
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that that is the information. So I'm telling you how many people have tested positive for COVID in
00:20:25.740
the hospital. Is this the stats they're using? Because I will tell you, people are admitted into the
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hospitals for reasons other than COVID, even though they tested positive. So a woman can go
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into labor, have signs and symptoms of COVID test positive. We don't know how long she's been
00:20:42.400
positive because you can test positive for a long time after you have been infectious. And that number
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would go on the report. And she's not in hospital for COVID. She's in hospital for labor for baby.
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That's right. She's going to have her baby, whether she's COVID positive or not hospital and have her
00:21:00.000
baby. We're seeing people who have heart attacks come to the hospital. Sign and symptom of a heart
00:21:05.280
attack is shortness of breath. Shortness of breath is on the symptom list to get tested for COVID. You
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test positive for COVID. Now you're in the hospital because you had a heart attack, but here, here,
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this is a statistic. People who are terminal with cancer test positive for COVID. They may die.
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Did they die because they had COVID? Did it contribute? Possibly. They have terminal cancer.
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They were going to die. I'm not trying to be insensitive. I'm very compassionate for families.
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I'm very passionate about end of life care, which is also part of why I'm advocating right now,
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which I'll get to in a minute. But this is what we're seeing. We're seeing people with urinary
00:21:48.180
tract infections who come in, who have tested positive for COVID. They are in the hospital
00:21:53.880
because they are on a urinary tract infection, meeting IV antibiotics. They are not in the
00:21:59.560
hospital because of COVID. So I don't know where they're getting their numbers from. I can't say
00:22:05.160
they're getting it from the reports I'm making. All I know is that I'm reporting it and I'm reporting
00:22:09.880
something without the necessary details where I'm not reporting whether somebody's being vaccinated or not
00:22:15.980
for COVID. They're telling us about people who are dying. So if somebody has tested positive for
00:22:24.880
COVID, dies of a stroke, is this considered part of their death toll for COVID? And I haven't heard
00:22:34.080
this anywhere. They're not sharing this information. They're not sharing the details, nor do I necessarily
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think they should for who's in the ICU and who's dying for what comorbidities. Do they have end-stage
00:22:45.320
organ disease? Because people with end-stage means you're going to die from that. So
00:22:53.060
you know, we have outbreaks. We have outbreaks. We have an outbreak in a hospice and people die.
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The criteria to get into the hospice is that you were expected to die. So we're putting fear into
00:23:06.380
people, which is it's so unhealthy. We're not meant to be in this heightened state of fear.
00:23:11.720
You know, a lot of people have heard of fight or flight. It's our body's mechanism to get through
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short time periods. We're putting people in fight or flight for months and months. It's making us
00:23:25.860
unhealthy. So it's just, it's awful. When I was talking about how passionate I am about end-of-life
00:23:34.300
care, it's end-of-life care, but it's also care for people who are in the hospital. We're limiting
00:23:39.540
who can see their loved ones in the hospital. Yep. And I am, I, you know, when that first started,
00:23:47.900
I'm like, okay, we're trying to keep less people out of the facility. It's been 19 months. And, and I,
00:23:54.740
we have patients who come into our hospital and they want to die because they are so lonely and they have
00:24:00.940
been isolated. And then we're not letting people in. And if you're, um, they're considering end-of-life,
00:24:07.240
if you, if we're expecting you to live four to the six months or four to six weeks, um, which is also
00:24:13.100
a weird range. I don't know why the four is in there. Why aren't you just saying less than six
00:24:17.320
weeks? But so we do our best for that. And then we still limit how many people can come in. But up
00:24:22.960
until that point, um, depending on what facility you were at determines how many people can come in
00:24:28.880
and see you. So, um, at our facility, we have been able to keep the two designated visitors,
00:24:35.940
um, in to see people. Well, if you have three children, how are you determining which, which
00:24:42.120
children, what is it, your top two favorites? And I know I'm being facetious, but it's true.
00:24:47.240
You know, like if Glenn were in the hospital, he's got me and he's got two daughters. So who,
00:24:53.560
who gets to come in and see Glenn? You know, I think it's terrible. Um, people are dying
00:24:59.200
in the hospital right now. And if their, um, loved one has, if they're unvaccinated and they've been
00:25:08.360
in close contact, then they're not automatically allowed to come in and see them. Or if they've
00:25:12.760
got signs and symptoms, their loved one is dying in the hospital and their spouse, we need to get a
00:25:18.660
special exemption, a special exemption to come in and be with your spouse. It breaks my heart. I, I,
00:25:26.580
I think it's terrible. I, I I'm speechless, obviously. You know what, just sort of interrupt
00:25:34.060
you, but I think we experienced this firsthand when our friend Haley was in the hospital
00:25:38.600
recovering from her car accident. I would drive down from the Edmonton area to Calgary, where she was in
00:25:45.360
a long-term care at the hospital. She was there for months. And the only way that I could visit her
00:25:51.900
was if Glenn rolled her outside and we would visit each other in the parking garage while she recovered
00:25:59.440
from a serious spinal cord injury. And if she didn't have somebody like Glenn, um, there, uh, while her
00:26:08.080
husband was away working, trying to pay the bills, she would not see anybody. She wouldn't just, I mean,
00:26:13.120
that, that would be it because she had to keep her one visitor or her two visitors. She had to keep
00:26:18.700
Glenn as one so that he could take her outside. And she had to keep her husband as one because when
00:26:23.720
he came home from working away, he needed to be able to see her. So when I drove down, we had to visit
00:26:28.160
in the parking garage in the cold while she recovered from a spinal cord injury. I lived this policy. We all
00:26:34.420
did. And people still are, and there's facilities not allowing anybody in the foothills. You know,
00:26:41.080
there's units that won't let anybody in the ICU. Wasn't letting people in to see their loved ones
00:26:46.640
until they were going to die. So they were in, in the hospital intubated for, you know, a month,
00:26:52.880
their loved ones can't see them. And then all of a sudden they're like, you know what,
00:26:55.980
your loved one is not going to survive this. So we need to consider taking away the ventilator
00:27:01.820
and they're going to die. And then that's when they let their loved ones in. When we provide
00:27:05.420
end of life care for people, we're not only providing end of life care for the person who
00:27:10.920
is sick and dying. We're providing end of life care for the family and their loved ones,
00:27:16.200
because that that's who needs to serve, who's going to continue living. These are people who
00:27:21.260
need to then go on and take care of their own families. And we're damaging people. We're harming
00:27:26.360
them. So in any code of ethics you look at, it says, do no harm. We are harming people.
00:27:32.740
We're harming them. We're, we're, we're not promoting healing and health when we're not
00:27:38.560
allowing people to see their loved ones in the hospital. And it's not healing or healthy for
00:27:43.500
the person in the hospital or the person who's at home wondering what's happening with their loved
00:27:47.980
one. Now, tell me about the response from, um, I guess management at Alberta health services to your
00:27:56.180
letter detailing all the ethics problems with what's happening with, I mean, your letter detailed,
00:28:02.560
not only the ethics problems with, um, mandating vaccinations for the entire healthcare system,
00:28:08.920
including pregnant and breastfeeding nurses, but also the problems with the handling of the COVID
00:28:14.700
crisis from the very beginning. What was their response to you? Um, well, their response,
00:28:20.600
basically, I'm pretty sure they just copied and pasted the same as what they sent me in my AHS email
00:28:25.180
about how they are. Um, Oh, I wrote it down health and safety of our workers, patients and public are
00:28:32.260
of the utmost importance. Okay. Except for the only thing that you are addressing is a vaccine that you're
00:28:40.140
mandating into people because you're not addressing all of the problems that have been happening for my
00:28:46.560
entire healthcare professional life. You haven't done anything about that, including that I'm, I'm being
00:28:54.260
far more vocal than I was before. And, um, I'm, I'm doing my best to do it in a professional and
00:29:01.280
respectful manner, but I am being very clear. Our emergency departments have been overwhelmed and abused
00:29:09.780
for what we're using them for, for my 23 years. I've been 28, sorry, 28 years. I've been a healthcare
00:29:16.620
professional. Same thing has been happening. Um, people are using emergency departments as walk-in
00:29:22.440
clinics. Um, you know, they didn't like what the last five doctors maybe told them about something
00:29:27.620
about a condition that they've had for months to years. Um, so they've decided to come to the
00:29:32.540
emergency department. Um, an example, somebody will come in and say, I have back pain and the nurse
00:29:38.240
will say, okay, how long have you had your back pain for? And they'll say two years. And the nurse
00:29:42.940
will say, okay, can you tell me what's different about your back pain today? That's brought you into
00:29:46.700
our emergency department. And they'll say nothing. I'm just tired of my back pain. I'm, I definitely
00:29:53.260
think you should have something done with your back pain. Having chronic pain is very taxing, um, on your,
00:29:59.100
your brain and on your mental health. And, and it can be very, um, uh, traumatizing and it can affect your
00:30:07.460
entire life. So I'm not minimizing the issue, but the emergency department isn't the place to come.
00:30:15.360
We're seeing people come now because they want swabs because they're afraid because they're watching
00:30:19.980
the news and social media. And so now they've got a sniffle or sore throat and they're like, oh my gosh,
00:30:26.020
what if I have COVID? What if you have COVID? What treatment is different because you went to the
00:30:32.000
emergency department than if you stayed home? Nothing. They're going to tell you to go home and rest.
00:30:37.260
And have fluids and get some fresh air and eat healthy. They're not necessarily going to tell
00:30:42.740
you some other things that you should do, like take vitamin D, right? So if what you're going to
00:30:48.660
get from the emergency department is no different than what you can do at home,
00:30:52.340
please don't come to the emergency department. When you come to the emergency department and you have
00:30:56.960
any signs and symptoms of COVID, we have to put you into an isolation room. The hospital I work at
00:31:02.460
has nine rooms in our emergency department. And we have patients who come in for things other than
00:31:07.520
COVID, but we're not able to care for everybody because we put people in isolation, which takes
00:31:12.680
time of nurses to put on their isolation PPE to go in. We're running out of the PPE because we're using
00:31:21.700
it so often. Our environmental service staff members can't keep up with the cleaning because then we have
00:31:27.680
to do a terminal clean in that room because somebody, you know, may or may not have an
00:31:32.860
infectious disease that's been in that room. Um, it's just, so I've asked, I've sent, I've sent emails.
00:31:39.180
I'm like, what is overwhelming? Our emergency department is people, non-urgent complaints.
00:31:44.460
We do infusions in our emergency, in rural emergency departments that shouldn't be done in emergency
00:31:49.840
departments. Um, we have people coming in at, because they can't get in with their family doctor.
00:31:54.960
Yeah. Um, sometimes it's because they phone and their family, um, physician office will ask,
00:32:01.620
do you have signs and symptoms? And if they say yes, then their family physicians won't see them.
00:32:06.200
So then they come to the emergency department. Although I've got a family member who phoned his
00:32:10.040
doctor, didn't tell them at all why he was trying to get in. And that physician office told him to go
00:32:15.760
to the emergency department and this is happening. And this has happened for years. So have we taken care
00:32:22.760
of this problem? No, I've sent an email to my two weeks ago. Have we, has anything come out? What
00:32:28.160
I've been told is that they're working with the communications department so that they can, you
00:32:33.000
know, encourage people not to come to emergency departments to get swabbed right now. Has this
00:32:37.760
come out? It came out when COVID very first in, in March and April, we sent out messaging to the
00:32:43.680
public that please don't come to the emergency department. If you don't have a urgent health concern
00:32:50.760
concern. And I want people to come to the emergency department if they have a health concern. If you
00:32:55.200
have chest pain, please come to the emergency department, phone EMS. If you have stroke-like
00:32:59.720
symptoms, please phone EMS and come to the emergency department. If you have a sniffle, please stay home.
00:33:06.140
Please don't come to the emergency department. So we shared this messaging with the public when COVID
00:33:11.180
first came about in Alberta and, and the public was respectful and we had less visits in our emergency
00:33:17.740
department. So we could take care of the people who, who needed our care. And so why is it taking
00:33:23.840
weeks to come out with this messaging when it did come out already? I don't understand. So my, my
00:33:31.720
concerns with this mandate is because I've got so many questions that nobody is giving me answers to.
00:33:38.800
So give me, and, and the response from AHS, that email that they responded with, they, they responded
00:33:46.480
with their QA sheet that they have. That doesn't answer any of the questions that I have. I've read
00:33:53.360
all of your stuff. I've read it all because I've been in a leadership position in our hospital since
00:33:58.880
this has all started. So I've read everything that you've put out over and over, and I'm reading
00:34:04.040
your COVID information and trying to get it all sorted and things that are changing. I'm staying
00:34:09.480
on top of it, but you are still not answering my questions and your email. No, that, that didn't
00:34:16.800
answer any of my questions. You know, it's a placebo it's to placate you and shut you up and, you know,
00:34:23.000
make you go away. But I don't think you're the kind of lady to do that kind of thing. What would
00:34:28.100
you do differently if you were able to change one, two, or three things immediately in the healthcare
00:34:33.940
system? What would Debbie Carrot manager in AHS do? Um, you know, I, it's, that's, it's a hard
00:34:45.340
question to answer because there's so many things. Um, what I have seen as an issue, um, for a lot of
00:34:52.780
times and which I've advocated for and which I volunteered to go on committees for is that we
00:34:57.900
need to have people in appropriate places. So if you are acutely ill, then you should be in an acute
00:35:04.900
care bed or an acute care unit. If you require a long-term care bed, then you should be in a long-term
00:35:11.300
care unit, not on an acute care bed. Um, the hospital that I work out, we've had consistently a
00:35:19.960
third of the people who are on our unit needing an alternate level of care. So either a supportive
00:35:24.920
living, um, generally level four or 4d, which is for people who have dementia or a long-term care.
00:35:32.620
So, uh, there's many reasons why people stay on our unit this, um, for this reason, and none of
00:35:40.220
which I think is reasonable. Um, so we need to do that. If, if the Alberta province is telling us,
00:35:48.360
whether it's AHS or the government that we need beds, that's how we're going to get beds.
00:35:52.700
So Verna, you said there's 200 long-term care beds all of a sudden available.
00:35:57.100
Well, great. Where are they? My units, uh, still same people on my unit right now. So they haven't
00:36:04.020
gotten those beds when places are on outbreaks. We're not moving people in there. Well, every
00:36:09.500
place is on outbreak right now because their criteria for an outbreak, um, is one person,
00:36:14.580
not necessarily one positive person, one person who has signs and symptoms now that they suspect
00:36:20.320
that it could be an outbreak, they're on outbreak. So we're not moving people any, any longer, um,
00:36:26.780
with influenza or with norovirus before we had to have three positive people. And that's,
00:36:33.080
that's not three positives. So if somebody's admitted to the acute care with, um, positive for
00:36:37.740
COVID or norovirus or influenza, which norovirus and influenza apparently have gone away,
00:36:43.380
by the way. Um, miraculous. I know COVID has solved all these problems. Um, then we needed
00:36:50.040
three positive cases that from people who are already on the unit. That's how we declared an
00:36:55.160
outbreak. When we got five people with positive swabs, we stopped testing, but that's not what we're
00:37:01.100
doing with COVID. Not only are we like continually testing, we're doing prevalence testing. People who
00:37:07.060
are in long-term cares are having swabs shoved up their nose every three days for prevalence.
00:37:12.660
We are damaging people. It is awful. Tell me who, when you were in a long-term care wants, wants this,
00:37:20.900
you know? Um, sorry, I, I realized I digressed from your question. So one is if, if they're telling us
00:37:28.620
that we need beds, then we need to have people in appropriate beds. And we haven't been doing that.
00:37:32.760
And we haven't been doing that for my entire career. Um, we need to properly utilize emergency
00:37:38.000
departments. Um, also has not been done. If we properly utilized emergency departments,
00:37:44.620
we would also then be able to free up emergency medical service staff members, um, because we are
00:37:50.480
also not using emergency medical services properly. Um, people are phoning ambulances, um, for reasons
00:37:56.620
that, um, um, they shouldn't necessarily be, um, we are overwhelming that system. We aren't able to
00:38:06.520
transfer people out for things like CAT scans because EMS is busy standing in hallways because
00:38:12.640
there's no hospital beds to move their patients into, um, because they are being diverted to all
00:38:18.300
over the province. Um, so they're leaving their home communities. Um, they're being used for transfers
00:38:23.800
that are unnecessary because somebody doesn't have a ride. Um, you know, we're also leaving
00:38:30.920
people in the hospital who don't need to be in the hospital. It's not, it's not only people who are
00:38:35.000
waiting for, um, an alternate level of care placement. We leave people in the hospital because
00:38:40.340
it's faster to get diagnostic testing if you're in the hospital than if you're at home. So I was at a
00:38:46.040
meeting, I don't know, six years ago, and this was brought to the attention. This has not changed.
00:38:50.280
So it's a, it's a huge flaw in the system. Um, I, I don't want to tag people against each other,
00:38:57.680
but we have physicians who won't discharge their patients from the hospital when the rest of the
00:39:02.440
multidisciplinary team has deemed that that person, um, no longer requires acute care services,
00:39:07.900
but, you know, sometimes people don't want to leave. They feel safe in the hospital. Um, they're fed in
00:39:14.160
the hospital, you know? So there's, there's lots of things that we can do for people in their homes
00:39:18.320
that we're not, um, the extra healthcare workers that Severna, you, uh, thinks is, is going to solve
00:39:26.140
and keep people up at home. I'm not sure if she knows what happens in the home care system. Does
00:39:32.540
she know what healthcare workers or sorry, um, healthcare aids do for people when they're at home,
00:39:39.020
they help bathe them. Um, they can help them with their medication. If it's bubble pack, they can pop it
00:39:45.320
out of the package and into a cup. So that person can take their medication. Um, you know, it's,
00:39:51.060
it's very limited. They can help them get dressed. The people that I have in the hospital right now
00:39:56.340
and they keep care waiting for long-term care. That's not going to help them. I can't send them
00:40:00.900
home. Oh, it's okay. We're going to help some, we're going to get you dressed in the morning. So now
00:40:04.760
you can stay at home. It's, it's much more complex. Um, now getting back to, I mean, you should be the
00:40:13.120
health minister, but anyway, instead of the lawyer. Oh, Sheila, come on. I know. I know. Um,
00:40:21.260
who keeps doing the same wrong thing over and over and over again and expecting some sort of
00:40:27.260
different miraculous result. Anyway, getting back to the reason I wanted to have you on because
00:40:32.060
you're so brave. You spoke out a bit against the, um, forced inoculation of the entire, uh,
00:40:39.860
healthcare system here in Alberta, how many you you've told me from the inside, both from
00:40:46.720
being a paramedic and seeing the, the problems with the emergency system, but also in ICU and in
00:40:53.820
management, how many nurses can this healthcare system stand to lose if they don't go along to
00:41:03.520
get along with the forced inoculation with the COVID vaccine? Oh, you know, this is the other
00:41:12.680
thing that just, it blows my mind right now. I'm, I feel very fortunate at the site that I work at. Um,
00:41:21.060
up until a few months ago, we've had a multitude of people apply for our positions. We've got a very
00:41:28.380
good reputation for having, um, great teamwork, um, of being welcoming to new staff members and to
00:41:34.620
students. Students also really like to come to the site that I work at. Um, and now I'm, I'm having,
00:41:41.480
um, positions that nobody's applying for. And this has happened to lots of other sites and,
00:41:48.780
and it occurred to them before it occurred to us, um, started occurring or occurring. I don't know
00:41:54.620
that's the right word, but, um, and I've had positions that I've had to post five times because
00:42:01.180
I am not getting applicants to our end positions that is open. Um, we are, we are hanging on by a
00:42:09.340
thread and the staff members are exhausted. Staff members have been working extra hours. Um, the
00:42:17.260
province came out with an uplift program a few months ago, which, um, gave people the
00:42:24.440
opportunity to increase their FTE. So when we implemented that, um, I, I'm fortunate. I, I think
00:42:32.340
I got, um, the equivalent of 2.13 FTE for that. And I was really excited and, and said to my staff,
00:42:40.340
you know, this is great. Um, we're giving people the opportunity to work at a higher FTE. I feel like
00:42:45.260
this is going to give us a bit of a break so you can, um, you know, we can focus on some of the other
00:42:50.600
things that we need to look at on how we can improve the care that we're providing for people.
00:42:55.500
Um, we don't even know, you can't even tell that we've got people working at a higher FTE right now
00:43:01.560
because we still have so many openings, um, that there's some sick calls. There's not,
00:43:10.300
there's not as many as I would expect when considering that as soon as somebody has a
00:43:14.780
sign and symptom of COVID, which has a long list of, of signs and symptoms. Um, so there is some
00:43:21.280
sick calls, but it's just like, we are not, we're not managing. And I, I don't just mean my site. I
00:43:27.560
mean, many other sites there's been bed closures because of staffing. I have never seen this where
00:43:33.340
there's so many sites with bed closures, which they just opened up by the way, they opened up these
00:43:39.000
beds and that's what was reported is we opened up beds. Yeah. I'm sure you did open up the beds,
00:43:44.700
but is that because now you have the staff members to safely care for people or did you open up beds
00:43:50.540
because people are saying we need more beds? Um, having a room open doesn't care, safely care for
00:43:57.680
people having proper staffing levels does. We do not have proper staffing levels right now. So I'm not
00:44:05.020
sure if AHS thinks that by coercing and bullying people to get a vaccine that they don't want to get,
00:44:13.740
that that's the solution. We are going to lose people and we're not only going to lose healthcare
00:44:19.200
workers. We're going to lose people who work in other departments. We need everybody in our system
00:44:24.060
to work. We need, we need environmental services. We need maintenance workers. We need health information
00:44:30.100
record, um, management people. We need everybody to be at work and that's not going to happen.
00:44:35.660
So I'm not sure how they say that, um, the health and safety of our workers, patients in public are
00:44:42.240
of the utmost importance when they're driving people away. I, I don't get it. They're driving
00:44:49.320
people away. And I know this because they are driving me away. And I know of hundreds of other
00:44:55.280
nurses who are ends who feel the same way. And so they're not listening. Um, I don't know who they
00:45:02.820
think is going to be taking care of people. And this is where, you know, the public who
00:45:07.780
thinks that people who are unvaccinated are being selfish and it's, it's the unvaccinated people's
00:45:13.480
fault. Um, you need to, you're not going to have people taking care of you. So it's, it's very,
00:45:20.600
I don't know what's going to happen. I I've heard in Quebec too, that they say, well, we're going to
00:45:24.740
have contract workers. Well, where are these contract workers? Do you think that there's a
00:45:29.780
bunch of RNs and LPNs and healthcare aids? I think there's all these people sitting around waiting to
00:45:35.680
go for their contract work because the ones you're going to lose, they can't be contract workers
00:45:39.960
because they still won't be able to step foot in your facility. So where are these contract workers
00:45:44.260
coming from? Um, are, I, I have theories that are we, are these contract workers going to be coming
00:45:53.360
from other countries? So, uh, I'm opposed to that, of course, when you've got, um, willing and, uh,
00:46:02.320
people who are ready to work right here in our province, who you're saying can't come to work
00:46:06.100
because they're not taking a vaccine that you've chosen for our bodies. Um, but when you bring people
00:46:11.160
and even, even from other zones within Alberta, it takes extra orientation because we've got policies
00:46:16.860
and procedures we have to follow and do things differently. So, um, bringing nurses from other
00:46:21.440
provinces and other countries is, um, uh, problematic and that the orientation and who do you think's
00:46:29.840
orientating them? Because the nurses who are working right now are done. They are exhausted. They are
00:46:35.720
physically exhausted, mentally exhausted. So now we're going to ask them, oh, here, can you please
00:46:40.800
orientate people who know nothing about our healthcare system or how we work? Um, I, I feel
00:46:48.560
like honestly, HS is playing a game of Russian roulette and, uh, it's not going to be good for
00:46:53.840
the people in our province. Yeah. I hadn't considered some of the points that you're making there. I just
00:46:59.100
naturally thought, okay, well, there will be this mass exodus of nurses or at least a, a, a substantial
00:47:05.580
exodus of nurses and healthcare workers and people who work in the healthcare system who just aren't
00:47:10.020
going to get vaccinated, but the vaccine mandate, as you point out is also causing problems with
00:47:15.860
filling existing positions that are no one's applying for. And then you're going to have
00:47:21.120
overworked nurses saying, you know what? It's not for me. I'll go back to school or I'll go do
00:47:26.980
something else or I'll stay home with my kids, whatever the world is your oyster, but you don't
00:47:31.480
have to work yourself to death in the healthcare system. So I guess the problems that will manifest
00:47:36.680
are sort of threefold there with staffing. Now I would really hate for the healthcare system
00:47:43.760
to lose someone like you, but that could be one of the consequences for you speaking out. What are
00:47:50.840
the professional ramifications you might face for even just sitting down with me in this interview,
00:47:56.140
where you talk about your personal experience in the healthcare system?
00:47:59.380
Um, uh, well, I'm a union exempt employee. And so, um, uh, I feel that it's easier and, and Alberta
00:48:10.160
health services has, um, terminated employees who are union exempt for, um, their own reasons. Um,
00:48:18.660
um, and you know what, if that's what happens and that's, I mean, I'll fight it obviously, but,
00:48:24.060
um, that's, um, that's, that, that's fine with me right now because, um, me standing up for what
00:48:32.480
I believe in and what I believe is right for patients, um, and staff members far outweighs
00:48:38.740
that consequence. Um, I'm also concerned about, um, my governing body, um, which is Karna.
00:48:45.900
Um, you know, there's some, there's different ways that people can look at, you know, the code of
00:48:53.640
ethics or speaking out and things like that. So I'm not sure if our governing body is going to be
00:48:59.580
taking on this mandate as well. Um, I have asked them that question. Um, I emailed it and I, I received
00:49:09.580
a response and they said, well, can you please call me? And I said, well, I'd prefer if you can please
00:49:14.420
give it to me in writing. So I haven't heard back yet. Um, and the reason I asked that question,
00:49:19.320
um, I've already, I've already renewed my license for this year, but there are staff members who
00:49:24.980
haven't. And they're like, if AHS isn't going to let me work, or if Karna is going to mandate this,
00:49:31.080
then we should know before we register. So it costs, um, $656 to register. And if the day after you
00:49:38.660
pay your money, you decide that you don't want to be registered any longer, you don't get any of your
00:49:43.060
money back. So, I mean, it's an extra financial burden on people who are looking at not getting
00:49:48.760
paid from their employer. Um, so, I mean, that's a concern as well. Um, but not one that's going to
00:49:55.940
stop me from, from advocating for patients and the public and for staff members and for myself
00:50:03.480
and for my grandchildren and, and for everybody else. So.
00:50:07.260
My last question, if Tyler Shandro, the lawyer turned health minister, we're watching right now,
00:50:16.840
what's the one thing that you would say to him?
00:50:20.560
I would say to him and Jason Kinney and Bernie, you, and lots of others that you need to start
00:50:27.400
talking to the people who are working on the floor. I know that there are, um, RNs and LPNs,
00:50:33.980
healthcare workers, paramedics, police officers, firefighters who are for this mandate. Um, so
00:50:41.160
you need to talk to people, but that's what I had in my letter as well. When did you talk to us?
00:50:47.200
You're not talking to us. You're not listening. Um, I, I am supportive of the staff that I work
00:50:53.480
with who choose to be vaccinated. I'm supportive of the staff I work with who choose not to be
00:50:58.040
vaccinated. This division needs to stop. It is, um, disgusting. Um, it's very troubling. Um, people
00:51:08.740
have taken polar opposites and we are saying the most, I say, we, it's not me, um, unethical statements
00:51:18.060
that are so disheartening for people who are compassionate and who want to take care of their
00:51:23.980
patients. So I'm hearing things like, um, from physicians and from nurses saying that if you're
00:51:31.720
unvaccinated, you shouldn't be treated in the hospital. Okay. But we have been treating people
00:51:38.440
who smoke and who drink and elicit drug use and doing all sorts of things. But if you're
00:51:43.380
unvaccinated, you shouldn't be treated. That's troubling. They're saying these in open areas,
00:51:48.360
such as the emergency department, where anybody can hear you, um, saying that people should have
00:51:54.960
to pay. If you get COVID and you're unvaccinated, you should have to pay for your healthcare.
00:51:59.300
Well, first of all, we all pay for our healthcare. It's called our taxes. And, um, why, how can you
00:52:06.360
pick and choose people to, for that? It's, it's just awful. Um, there was a Facebook posting of a
00:52:13.520
physician and his page is open. Um, and I will be reporting to the CMA and to Alberta health services
00:52:21.600
because, um, his statement is just terrible. And I'm just, I'm going to open it up on my phone
00:52:29.280
here. I took a picture of it. Um, so, well, it's about time someone said it, but if at this point
00:52:37.620
you remain unvaccinated, then you are just plain stupid, uh, he carries on blah, blah, blah. And
00:52:46.000
then he says, um, your Google searches, healthy diet, lifestyle choices, and supplements won't cut
00:52:52.620
it. You have no clue, literally zero idea. Hmm. Well, Mr. Doctor, I do have a clue and I do have an idea.
00:53:04.700
And because I have an alternate perspective than you do does not make me stupid. Um, and I need to
00:53:13.440
question, how are you treating your patients? So are you treating your patients who have chosen not to
00:53:19.980
be vaccinated differently because you just made this a public post? Yeah. Public. Um, I don't like to
00:53:30.780
call names, but I'm not sure that the unvaccinated people are the ones who are not the wisest. Um,
00:53:37.340
if you look at like the CMA code of ethics, um, he's gone against so many of them, people have the
00:53:46.940
right to their own opinions and they have the right to choose what they're going to put into their body.
00:53:51.560
And they should have the right to choose who's going to come see them when they are sick in the
00:53:56.580
hospital. So you can't just look at one area and then say blanket statement for people. That's not
00:54:05.300
the way things go. Um, so I am, and I've heard this from multiple people that this is what they're
00:54:12.960
hearing in their workplace. AHS says that we don't tolerate that. Well, don't we? Cause it sure seems
00:54:20.220
like we do. And this is also what I sent, um, to the senior leaders of my portfolio. I'm like,
00:54:27.900
this is awful. This can't carry on. Uh, this has gone beyond us putting up a poster saying that we
00:54:35.300
don't tolerate abuse in the workplace. Um, your, your, my, the response to that also was just about
00:54:43.820
the AHS. We don't tolerate this really, but you are, and it's awful. And we are, there's people
00:54:52.200
who don't want to come to the hospital because they're being treated this way. Yeah. That is not
00:54:56.620
our job. Our job is to take care of people. We're not taking care of people. And when the government
00:55:02.140
is spreading this fear and you listen to Jason Kinney for the love of God, get vaccinated for the love of
00:55:08.480
God, listen to what people are telling you. You know, it's not like one person who's against this.
00:55:15.080
There's many people. We need to look at everybody's perspectives. We need to respect people. Um, I am
00:55:21.060
just, I, I think the division, um, is, is terrible. There's people who won't even look at me because
00:55:28.660
they've asked somebody if I believe the same things as Glenn has, um, has said publicly. Um, they've asked
00:55:38.100
somebody else if I'm vaccinated or not, and then they will not look me in the eye. You know, if
00:55:44.400
you would like to know why I make choices for myself, then, you know, maybe I'll share some of
00:55:50.560
it. I won't, you know, some things are private. It's really none of your business, but if you really
00:55:55.060
want to know what my perspective is, then have a conversation with me. Yeah. And I would like to
00:56:00.620
have a conversation with you and find out why you feel the way that you do, but we are lacking that
00:56:05.920
right now we're making a judgment and we're using derogatory, um, remarks such as, um, uh,
00:56:13.880
anti-vax and anti-mask that's derogatory, just like anything else. I'm not anti-vax. I choose
00:56:21.800
not to be vaccinated for COVID-19, but I've been vaccinated for everything else. So why,
00:56:27.920
why are we able to stereotype people for this issue when we're told not to do that for anything
00:56:34.460
else? You know, um, we're told that if somebody looks differently than us, we should not say,
00:56:41.860
well, where are you from? What country are you from? Because we're, we have the assumption that
00:56:46.480
they are not Canadian, that they were not born in Canada. So why are we making assumptions about
00:56:52.200
somebody who doesn't want to put a mask on their face or somebody who chooses not to receive this
00:56:57.100
vaccination? Um, I think we've lost our humanity. Um, I, I don't even like to go to the grocery store
00:57:05.680
because, um, first of all, having a mask on my face, I like to smile at people. I like to interact
00:57:11.800
with people. Um, I put a mask on my face. I want to put my head down. I don't look at people. And then
00:57:17.540
now when I look around, I'm like, well, what are they saying? Because people are being so cruel to
00:57:23.300
each other. Yeah. Now, Debbie, I know I said one final question, but I have one more. Do you have
00:57:30.980
any advice for healthcare workers like yourself who are opposed to forced inoculations as a condition
00:57:39.560
of your employment? What do you have to say to them? Because you are willing to be the public face
00:57:44.720
of all of this, but what do you have to say to them as they try to navigate a workplace where they are
00:57:50.940
being treated like lepers and they could lose their job? Um, I would say this is what I'm going to tell
00:58:00.360
you that I see to start with. Um, I am a supportive manager. Um, I don't know, I haven't spoken to other
00:58:08.980
managers who are taking the same stance as I have been. Um, I'm hearing from a lot of people across our
00:58:17.540
province, um, uh, healthcare workers who are feeling like they are being bullied by their manager,
00:58:23.500
or they're just being given the blanket statement by their manager, just report your vaccination,
00:58:28.420
just fill out this form, just whatever. Um, I've never managed that way. So I am supportive of staff
00:58:36.640
members. Like I said before, whether you've chosen to be vaccinated or not. Um, what I'm hearing from
00:58:42.640
people is that people who have, um, a stance where they think this mandate is good, um, or that they're
00:58:50.140
vaccinated and that they then feel like they're superior to others, um, are speaking their voice
00:58:56.340
in the workplace. They're speaking, um, saying whatever they feel like they want to say, um, which
00:59:01.900
isn't appropriate regardless of what the topic is. Um, when we're in the workplace, we're there to do,
00:59:07.460
to do a job and to stand up with our ethics and to be professionals. Um, the people who have, um,
00:59:13.960
concerns with this vaccination or even people who have been vaccinated, but they're against this
00:59:18.960
mandate feel like they can't say anything. They don't want to have the conflict in the workplace.
00:59:25.020
They don't feel like they can voice their perspective on things because the other people
00:59:30.480
are being so loud or, um, or so firm on what they're saying. So that's a problem.
00:59:37.460
Um, and, and, and my recommendation to people isn't necessarily to be saying, to standing up and
00:59:44.740
voicing that in the workplace. Nobody should, we don't need to talk about it in the workplace.
00:59:49.860
Um, but we, we do need to open conversation. So saying things like, um, you know, I have an
00:59:57.660
alternate perspective. If you'd like to have a conversation about this sometime, I would be
01:00:01.420
happy to do that away from work. Um, so doing that, um,
01:00:07.460
not being fearful of, of speaking your voice or your opinion. Um, and it's hard because people are
01:00:15.580
being so cruel and, um, you know, this isn't the only thing going on in people's lives. We still have
01:00:22.920
our, our other, we had, we had lots of challenges in our life before this came about and we still have
01:00:28.360
those challenges. Um, so we need to be kind and empathetic and compassionate to each other.
01:00:33.680
Um, I do encourage other managers to advocate with your staff or to have conversations with your
01:00:40.540
staff members. Um, yeah. And just, I, I think we need to hold tight and, and, and, um, question
01:00:49.900
what rights, even if you believe that this mandate is right, what rights are you willing to give up
01:00:54.860
and what do you think is coming next? Debbie, I want to thank you so much for being so brave
01:01:00.680
to advocate for your fellow healthcare workers. Um, I know that this puts you in some employment
01:01:06.560
jeopardy and if any, um, ill treatment should befall you, um, rebel news has your back. Don't you worry.
01:01:15.080
Thank you, Sheila. Thanks, Debbie. Um, we'll check in again very, very soon. Um, and if,
01:01:20.180
like I said, if any sort of consequences come your way for speaking out, speaking to me, um,
01:01:26.660
even supporting Glenn, I guess, please let me know. You bet. Have a great day. You too. Thanks.
01:01:35.240
Debbie's an ICU nurse. The Alberta government has not yet redeployed her to ICU rooms that they tell
01:01:53.160
us are collapsing. Again, just another instance of government mismanagement of the pandemic. And I
01:01:59.540
want to reiterate that if Debbie needs any legal support, we're here to provide it. And we're going
01:02:05.400
to do that through your donations to fight vaccine passports.com in partnership with the democracy
01:02:13.400
fund, a registered Canadian charity that works to advance civil liberties in Canada for all Canadians.
01:02:22.740
Well, everybody that's the show for tonight. Thank you so much to Debbie carrot. Thank you so much to
01:02:28.960
you at home for tuning in. I'll see everybody back here in the same time in the same place next
01:02:34.400
weekend. Remember, don't let the government tell you that you've had too much to think.