SHEILA GUNN REID ｜ Life lessons learned from the hard-knock world of professional wrestling
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Summary
What can Professional Wrestling teach you about life? Well, today we re going to find out from a former wrestler and author Ben Nelson Creed, who has written a book called 12 Pro Wrestling Rules for Life. It s a take on Jordan Peterson s 12 Rules For Life, but it s all done through a pro wrestling worldview.
Transcript
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What can professional wrestling teach you about life?
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Well, today we're going to find out, and we're going to find out from a former professional wrestler.
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I'm Sheila Gunn-Reed, and you're watching The Gunn Show.
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You know there's a mantra out there that sends a shiver down my spine every time I hear it
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because it is so sinister, because it's cruelty cloaked as kindness.
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It's one of those personal affirmations that you hear all the time,
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It's that positive, sloganeering background noise of Facebook.
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The phrase is, you're perfect, just the way you are.
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But I think it's important for people to realize that they are a work in progress,
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that they should always strive to be better tomorrow than they were today,
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to achieve more, to achieve their full potential.
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And I think if you're one of those people who thinks, actually, no, I'm fine just how I am,
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I think you're damning yourself to not being the best version of yourself that you can be.
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So when I hear about someone who's advocating for personal development
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through personal responsibility and putting in the hard work, boy, I'm ready to listen.
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And I'm even more ready to listen when that message is told in a really interesting way,
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But friends, even if you're not a wrestling fan, I think you're really going to like today's show.
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I'm talking to BC-based author and former professional wrestler Ben Nelson Creed.
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He's the author of a few books, but the one we're talking about today is called 12 Pro Wrestling Rules for Life.
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I'll include a link in the show notes to the book in case you're interested.
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It's a take on Jordan Peterson's 12 Rules for Life,
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but it's all done through Ben's fun professional wrestling worldview.
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So we're talking about that and what inspired the book,
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but we're also talking about how professional wrestling seems to be surviving woke culture so far,
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And we're also talking about how a former professional wrestler like Ben
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So joining me now is author, wrestler, and teacher Ben Nelson.
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We have a mutual friend, my producer of my show.
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and he sort of suggested that maybe you would be kind of a cool guy to talk to.
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I've written a book titled 12 Pro Wrestling Rules for Life.
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The sort of buzzword or the catchphrase being get a headlock on life.
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It's a take on professional wrestling as not just, you know,
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two guys in spandex beating each other up or two women in spandex beating each other up,
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but actually valuable life lessons and valuable life instruction from an art form
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that really reflects what society is and what culture is and some pretty impressive,
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if you look at the track record values of what wrestlers entail and what they actually bring to the table
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of the world of entertainment, but also personal life experience.
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And you're not just a casual wrestling observer fan, 80s wrestling aficionado like I am.
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Tell me a little bit about your history as a professional wrestler.
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I think that the book focuses mostly 80s and 90s because I think that was the golden era.
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But having said that, I did start wrestling in 1999.
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So I don't know if I look like I could still wrestle.
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I just haven't really been interested in doing it.
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And there was a wrestler from Britain, Johnny Saint.
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He was still an amazing wrestler at 70 years of age.
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I found the Hart Brothers School of Professional Wrestling in Cambridge, Ontario, which actually
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But the person behind managed to hang on to the name.
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And so he broadcasted as a Hart Brothers School of Professional Wrestling.
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So there were people literally from around the world going into this school.
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And it turned out to be a big con and a big scam.
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And that's actually what my first wrestling book was about.
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The people that I grew to be friends with from there are still the people that came to
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They're still the people that I talk to on a regular basis.
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If we have a life crisis, we're still the support group that we grow, where we turn to,
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And so I suppose that's kind of the camaraderie and the deep value of friendship.
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And like one of the rules is pick your friends carefully or choose your friends carefully.
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I think people write off about professional wrestling, which I put into the book.
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And then I wrestled maybe six months in Ontario, came back to BC, went back to Ontario, came
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back to BC, broke my leg really badly, got back into wrestling a few years later, traveled
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I was getting flown around with the NWA in the United States for a while.
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And then after that ended, I was really more interested in pursuing my interest in wrestling
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And that ties into the book because I wrestled as the battling bard, Nelson Creed.
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And so I was a Shakespearean aficionado, a thespian.
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And I would come to the ring with a cape and a book on Shakespeare, which I wrote as well,
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And I would try and force people to read the book.
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I'm laughing because Ezra Levant always forces me to listen to him read Shakespeare when I'm
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And so I can relate to the psychological terror that you inflicted on people.
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You don't know what's good for you kind of thing.
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Well, maybe I'll pin him down and we can read some Shakespeare together sometime and do a play.
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So I wrestled as a battling bard from about 2007 to 2018.
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And I felt like that's where I had my most success.
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And that's what I enjoyed in wrestling the most was just taking something kind of zany,
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kind of funny, kind of different, mashing it into wrestling and calling it a persona.
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And, you know, yelling huzzah and calling for encores and all, you know, calling people
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crusty botches of human nature and telling, you know, asking to go crush a cup of wine.
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Like, just all these silly quotes from Shakespeare, throwing them into the rig.
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But I feel like the big reward was I enjoyed doing what I did.
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And I feel like the, you know, you want to stroke our own egos.
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But I feel like the fans enjoyed it more because it was different.
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It was kind of stupid, but it was also kind of intelligent.
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And it was just a different take on pro wrestling.
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And, you know, the Hart family has a new wrestling promotion in Calgary, Dungeon Wrestling,
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They do smaller local wrestling promotions and the cheesier, the better.
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We've come to appreciate wrestling for what it is, right?
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But it's also like there's some truth in that ham, right?
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I wrestle a lot with actually, well, a fair bit with Harry Smith, David Boy Smith's son,
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and TJ Wilson, who was Tyson Kidd in the WWE as well.
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And the passion for the business was always evident, right?
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Now, your love of the written word, that's not just a wrestling gimmick.
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And so I'm sort of fascinated by the trajectory of someone who is in professional wrestling
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I don't know if it was before or after, but I read Tito Santana as a teacher as well.
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So, but for me, it was always, yeah, it was always an interesting passion.
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And even when I was first wrestling, I wanted to do the battling bar gimmick, and I just
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And I always thought, you know, unless you're Ric Flair, you can't wrestle forever, you know?
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It was always my other passion in life, literature, Shakespeare, writing, reading.
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While I was doing my wrestling, I was also completing my education.
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I went to Simon Fraser in Vancouver and completed my education, or my English major, philosophy
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minor, and then a post-diploma program in education there.
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I tried to hide it from students, or I did for a long time, because it was just so distracting.
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You know, the guys, whoa, you were a wrestler while I was all four.
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And they would just start wrestling and start trying to beat each other up.
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I loved engaging students with it, but I also, I don't know if this is what I should be telling
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you, because you're going to start trying to wrestle each other in front of me and getting
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And that's not a good, there's no good outcome, right?
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I can't, I can't tell you that I would have acted any differently than those children.
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Now, now, you know, before we get into your book, cause I'm just, I love having a, someone
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who's been on the inside of wrestling and I get to pick your brain a little bit because
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I'm always interested in the, in how this testosterone charged industry, this entertainment
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manages to be so resilient so far to woke culture and the, these attacks on masculinity and traditional
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masculinity as though it's some sort of toxic influence on society.
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You don't see, like you see it, or it's creeping hard into hockey lately.
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You know, but so far wrestling seems to be not, not completely impermeated, but it's, it's
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Are they going to dive on it now or the social justice warrior is going to attack it?
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Um, yeah, yeah, I never, uh, I've never noticed that before, but you're, you're, you're right.
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As I think about that, um, I think part of it, like wrestling did do, did do itself a service
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in that there were, even back in the day, there were quite a few gay wrestlers, you know?
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And so that kind of, I think they've been like, there's a, there's a blatant homo eroticism
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Gold dust or Adrian Adonis, one of my favorites, you know?
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Um, but then you go like, you know, Pat Patterson, I don't know if you know, he was,
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And so I think that there was this thing in the business where it was, I don't know,
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it was kind of like respected and acknowledged, but not.
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And it was really interesting too, because I was friends with Chris Canyon, who was big
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in WCW and, you know, we didn't know that he was, I wasn't in WCW, it was just, he helped
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us do a movie, uh, back in 99 at the wrestling school.
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And I remember joking about something to do with it.
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Oh, you know, like someone's not so macho if they do something or, you know, people
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start to talk and say, what do you mean by that?
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Um, so there were, I think that the people like that, that were in the business,
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I think that they kind of took a bit of a brunt of it.
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And so the business itself, while it hasn't been attacked by world culture, I think the
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business kind of went after itself earlier, you know, and there's Orlando, Jordan, and
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a few other wrestlers who push that button hard and also, um, or push the reality out
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And I think that probably about mid nineties after Goldust was gone, I think that it was
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sort of realized, and especially with Canyon, you know, that it wasn't, uh, it wasn't fodder.
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Homosexuality and stuff wasn't fodder for ridicule, you know, but that's very different from woke
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And I don't know why woke culture, maybe it's because wrestling is a parody of reality already.
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I'm sure we're going to see a woke culture angle in it.
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Right to censor way back, like nine, uh, late nineties, right?
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Venus and ivory and the good father who was the guy with a good, it was a funny gimmick and
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So maybe, I don't know, maybe it's the world culture realizes if we make fun of wrestling,
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I don't think so, but that's a really interesting question.
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I haven't got an answer for why it hasn't happened other than wrestling is just all a
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Like after, um, after Trump won his first election, I don't know if you heard of, there
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But he would come out wearing like a Hillary Clinton singlet or something.
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It was in, it was, uh, in Southeastern States, but there was, that was his gimmick.
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So maybe it's just, well, it's all, um, but you know, I do have to say this.
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I do know a local wrestler who used to wrestle in Seattle and right or wrong, he had Pepe the
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Cause I believe in free speech and I believe that, well, he's out there playing a persona
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to sort of make you think about what he's doing.
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Uh, but it got to the point where people in the, in the audience would organize themselves
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to walk out during his matches as a form of protest against his wrestling and his persona.
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And I knew the guy and like, he was a good friend of mine.
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And you know, they were always accusing him of being racist and being homophobic.
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And those are both so completely far from the truth.
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He didn't care, but it was just that perception.
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I think, you know, it's, it's hard to make fun of somebody or pick on somebody who picks
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And also this is, uh, it is a performance art, right?
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Like as much as you see woke culture sort of sneaking in, sneaking in, rushing in like
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Um, this is kind of the opposite where, um, you know, they, they make fun of themselves,
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but they're also, as you say, it's a bit of an industry based on free speech.
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You get to be the character you want and your character is over the top.
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And so I guess it's, it's hard to enforce like certain cultural, social rules that everybody
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think polite that should exist in polite society.
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It's kind of hard to overlay that onto wrestling.
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You know, it's like, it really is about status and performance and what the perception is.
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I feel like it's going to be done, but it's hard to do it in a way that wrestling wouldn't
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And that's, I mean, that's why it is too, because at this stage that, you know, as we've
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like in the eighties, it was all serious and this is take it real.
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And then the nineties, they said, well, we're not going to be condescending.
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And now it's at the point where the wrestling that you used to see small time, local, ridiculous
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wrestling, like a local wrestler promoter passed away just a couple of weeks back, but
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he had like the most ridiculous gimmicks you've ever heard, the magic dragons, you know, and
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there's these two full guys, fully grown men in these ridiculous cloth dragon costumes.
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It was ridiculous, but that sort of stuff has now reached the highest level of wrestling.
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And so all the way down, it's okay to make fun of everything and anything.
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So I think because it's, it's a self-acknowledged farce, maybe it's not getting picked on and
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And I think, I think the, the heckle culture around wrestling sort of makes it hard to be
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Cause, um, I don't want to toot my own horn, but I was born to heckle.
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Um, but you know, I heckle with the deepest love.
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And so you sort of get it out of your system where it's like, you can't say this, you can't
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say that you have to behave and follow all these rules all week long.
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And then you go to see the wrestling show at the Legion and you're just like letting everybody
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So maybe it's that pressure valve that you need to let off in society.
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Cause you know, like who you're heckling, isn't really the person that you're heckling
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So I was like, yeah, I don't know if you're playing a role too, as a fan.
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I always thought that was an interesting thing, right?
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They're in on it and we're all kind of play acting, pretending goofing around, but we're
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So yeah, maybe that keeps it from being too serious for anyone.
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I don't honestly believe that I'm heckling a real.
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People like you have ruined my weeks, actually.
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I, you know, like we go home and write down, if they say this next time, I'm going to say
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I want to ask you about your book because that's really why I wanted to have you on the show.
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And, you know, I, I often joke with my friend, David Menzies, who is also a very strong 80s
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wrestling aficionado that I could write an entire master's thesis on the role that Hacksaw
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And his role as a proud American and, and being unashamed and all of that, it was at
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the right time in the right cultural atmosphere for him to be the right guy.
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And he would, not only that, but his look was like regular Joe, average American.
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And so he looked like middle America and he was fighting for Americans at a time when the
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tensions in the Cold War were sort of, yeah, America was winning.
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Although if you ask me now, I would suggest that maybe they didn't win the, the, the Cold
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War march through our institutions happened while everybody wasn't paying attention.
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But I, I think I could, like I said, I'm here, I'm doing it.
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I'm pitching it, but, but I, I could, I could make that case.
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And so I'm always interested to see somebody like you talk of, oh, I hit my microphone.
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Talk about the values in wrestling, um, and how those are important cultural values.
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You could, uh, cause as I've kind of said, wrestling is,
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And the interesting thing is when I, I think you can also do a master's on, on the fact
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that when society doesn't have its values, it's tougher to pick out the good guys and
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It's tougher to have good wrestling, you know, cause it's all, it is really tribal, uh,
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You cheer for someone that you think reflects you and, uh, Seth Godin advertising writer,
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So when you're watching two guys wrestle, it's status versus status.
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So you have to think if someone wins in a wrestling match, like say John Cena wins,
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what is the status of his persona that makes it better for him to win than to lose?
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And why are people going to endorse that by coming out and watching you?
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There's, there's a, there's a real, and I don't know if it's the leader or the follower,
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the indicator or the lagging indicator, but it shows something about society.
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Um, and I, I guess that'd be one thing that is a bit of the book, but the, my book was,
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I'll tell you one of my favorite, like the first rule is work your gimmick.
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And people think like, you know, in wrestling, everyone's got to give me hacksaws gimmick.
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As you brought up big burly guy, Oh, tough guy, two by four working class, rolly over,
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not technical, although he could, but he didn't go technical.
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He just did knock it, bang, drag it out, slug it out.
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And that was what the fans of the eighties appreciated.
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And if you look at the action movies too, it's like Arnold was big.
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And so they didn't, the wrestlers didn't wrestle like Jackie Chan, which they do now.
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The wrestlers wrestled like you would picture Rocky, like Rocky's strategy was all as well.
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And so a gimmick is, it's not necessarily a contrived performance.
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And I think if most people took a long, hard look at what is your gimmick day to day, what
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I think most people in the world would identify their values a bit better and identify, wait
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a minute, do I want to be the guy who yells at people because my coffee is two degrees too
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Or do I want to be seen as the guy who's respectable and approachable and a good person?
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I think that they would identify more about what makes them themselves and how they want
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to establish a legacy that is that persona, that person, right?
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And you know, like a Hamlet, you, um, we know what we are, not what we may be, right?
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And so wrestling, as I began wrestling as the battling bard, it was really wasn't fleshed
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I had an idea, but as I grew into it and did it more and more, I really recognized in
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it what persona I want to portray for the fans.
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And so now as a teacher and a writer and a father and a guy who's, uh, you know, I mean,
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basically a libertarian, I recognize more and more what it is I want people to recognize
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It has really affected every aspect of my life, all those aspects.
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Um, so that was the, the most, well, not the most important, but the primary, um, primary
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Um, but then my favorite rule probably is, uh, well, you know, uh, even the odds by any
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That's another favorite rule of mine because like Axel two by four, how many times did he
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hit people with a two by four and he never did it to start the fight.
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No, if the things weren't going his way and he was outnumbered, he finished the fight
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Um, and then one interesting, uh, sort of common thread was I looked at it and said, well,
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I mean, if David had tried to throw on a big suit of armor and swing a sword around, he
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And this, I did borrow a little bit from Malcolm Gladwell in one of his books, but he went to what
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was good and he evened the odds by playing to his strengths and working with what worked
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So even the odds by throwing rocks with a sling, which he knew how to do.
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So play to your strengths, but also even the odds like, well, I'm not going to have a
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I'll play it to my strengths and work it from my angle where I'm evening the odds by using
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So a lot of the, the, the rules I feel all build on each other and there is a free line
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in them in that they are all, and they're all reflected in wrestling.
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Um, if anyone grabs a copy, I would say grab the e-copy for now because I haven't got QR
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codes in the, in the paperback, but the e-copy goes to the link.
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So when I'm talking about hacksaw gym nugget, or I'm talking about Jake, the snake, or I'm talking
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about Steve Austin spraying an entire ring down full of beer.
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If you're connected to the wifi where you can go in and see what I'm talking about.
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And it just makes it much more, uh, a living experience.
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Now, now I don't want to take up too much of your time.
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Cause I, I said, I would only take up 20 minutes of your time and I could talk wrestling
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And I know you were talking after you're done a full work day, but, um, I wanted to ask you,
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I'll ask you to pick in 2023, if you can pick one of your wrestling rules that would benefit
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the most amount of people in 2023 so that they have a better year.
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This is, I got, I've, I need to, I feel like I need to just review all the rules.
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Cause I remember my favorites and I'm already working on a couple of new books.
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What do I, I feel like on a day to day, 2023, like where are we, you know, what are we doing?
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Cause I usually have too much to say and now I can't.
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So what's the rule that would help people weed through the confusion of 2023?
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I feel like you have to just, uh, maybe I'll, I'll go with two.
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And like, when you start talking about the economy and the unaccountability and the frustration
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that people feel and the things that happen to us, you know, especially if, you know, depending
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on your political affiliation and the bias that you get from people and perspective, I think
00:27:49.780
You're just going to have to play with the hand you got that that's the honest, that's
00:27:55.320
And I think that actually got that quote from the princess bride, you know, the book life
00:28:01.620
I think going into 2023, looking at how everything is panning out and how we all know, you know,
00:28:08.360
they'll deny it, but we all know we're in a recession, right?
00:28:10.620
We all know that we're suffering bad, like inflation that's at least 10%, probably higher
00:28:24.140
You got to work hard away from the spotlight and you have to, in the black and brown terms,
00:28:27.600
not just pay your dues, but work hard on what makes you better at what you're going to do.
00:28:32.220
Work hard at what is going to lead you to success, as opposed to letting someone else
00:28:39.060
Like, I mean, be proactive, but work hard, right?
00:28:41.860
Like I had a very good friend whose career turned into a crazy, most successful, I think,
00:28:53.600
It started out with a very bad injury and years off.
00:28:57.800
And even when she finally got her W.E. auditions and tryouts and spotlight at a spot to be
00:29:03.440
a wrestler, she was just getting pushed down and ignored and ignored.
00:29:07.260
And repeatedly throughout that three years of her developmental contract, there was a
00:29:13.620
Do you give up and ride out and have a good time and party?
00:29:16.020
Or do you work hard on yourself away from the spotlight and hope and have faith that when
00:29:21.060
you do get your shot, when you do get your chance to leap ahead in the job or, you know,
00:29:26.520
go for the relationship you want or take off and get out of Canada, that you're ready.
00:29:40.200
And life isn't fair, but no one's going to help you with it, you know, unfortunately.
00:29:45.500
People will help you with it, but you have to be prepared.
00:29:47.220
And you have to accept that your chips, your cards aren't going to be the same as someone
00:29:55.320
Because if you don't do that, you're going to regret it.
00:29:57.160
But if you do your best and it doesn't work, you're not going to regret it the same way.
00:30:04.680
Yeah, I think those are great pieces of advice.
00:30:08.900
And I think when you start to realize that life isn't fair, but you can make it better through
00:30:12.920
hard work and good choices, you sort of liberate yourself from the resentment that might creep
00:30:17.280
in because you do see life as unfair and resentment is a poison.
00:30:22.700
Ben, I want to thank you so much for taking the time.
00:30:28.280
Just go on Amazon.ca, type in 12 Pro Wrestling Rules for Life.
00:30:35.260
I feel like I'm going to share one thing and on the book, I think it's wonderful.
00:30:39.000
When I first went to wrestling school, we all knew wrestling wasn't real, but we found
00:30:46.140
I always think of it this way, and it goes to do with working your gimmick.
00:30:49.440
Life is a work in that there's always a persona you're putting on.
00:30:56.240
And just remember that most people, when they're presenting themselves to you, they might be
00:31:00.000
honest, but they're also trying to present something for a, not an ulterior motive, but
00:31:07.720
So if you walk into a room and I don't know you, and you tell me that you're the greatest
00:31:11.880
writer in the history of writing screenplays, I don't know you, so I'll take you at face
00:31:18.040
So remember, you can present yourself any way you want, and people will accept that if
00:31:25.880
But I guess maybe that's a bit of blather, not necessary.
00:31:29.960
But going back to the book, yeah, Amazon, 12 Pro Wrestling Rules for Life, it's in there,
00:31:37.120
I recommend the e-reader version, but paperback copy can be had as well.
00:31:42.080
And I did also write another book called You're Going to Hurt Yourself, which was about my
00:31:46.240
time at pro wrestling school in Ontario, and my first two years in the business.
00:31:52.360
That was the first book that I really leapt on as, yeah, this is cathartic, but also useful
00:31:58.720
Well, Ben, like I said, I want to thank you so much for taking the time.
00:32:03.240
I think you give some good advice to young people, but also just to Canadians in general,
00:32:08.340
people struggling, living through the society that we've been given over the past three years.
00:32:20.960
I mean, there's a guy doing his best to put his best foot forward when he walks into
00:32:37.040
And hopefully we can have you back on the show to talk about your next project.
00:32:57.100
It's a portion where I invite your viewer feedback.
00:32:59.980
I actually care about what you think about the work that we're doing here at Rebel News
00:33:02.720
because we live or die on your support because we don't take any money from Justin Trudeau
00:33:14.140
It's one of the reasons I give out my email address at this portion of the show.
00:33:18.500
So if you have something to say to me, it's Sheila at rebelnews.com.
00:33:21.620
Put gun show letters in the subject line so it's easier for me to find because I do
00:33:26.560
get a lot of emails in a day and it just makes the ability to search a lot easier.
00:33:31.060
So this letter comes to me from somebody named Glenn and it's, I think, based on a couple
00:33:39.880
So I recently interviewed my friend Rick from the National Firearms Association and my friend
00:33:46.300
Chris Sims from the Canadian Taxpayers Federation talking about Trudeau's gun grab.
00:33:51.820
Rick, of course, looks at it through the lens of a gun owner and an advocate for firearms
00:33:59.280
And Chris looks at it definitely through that viewpoint, but also on behalf of Canadian
00:34:04.800
taxpayers who are going to be paid, who are, sorry, going to pay for Trudeau's gun grab
00:34:12.960
because Trudeau is banning guns, forcing people like me to turn them in.
00:34:18.620
And then he says he's going to compensate us for our guns instead of just letting us continue
00:34:31.220
Hi, Sheila, I'm not sure if you're aware of the most simple shotgun that has only one
00:34:42.020
Yeah, I did see that a joke gun made it on the ban list because that's the kind of experts
00:34:48.460
They don't even know a joke gun from a real gun.
00:34:53.520
This video is from the guy that made it and wonders how Trudeau even knows about it.
00:35:09.040
So how, and this is why I used to spread my video far and wide, folks, or at least ask
00:35:14.760
your friends, people in the know, why on earth does the Canadian government know about
00:35:20.540
That's, it's, they probably, I mean, looking at their stuff that they've banned, looks like
00:35:25.600
they went through our NFA registry and banned stuff that's American made NFA firearms.
00:35:32.200
And as far as I know, NFA, the NFA firearm list is kind of restricted.
00:35:38.560
It's, well, I always heard it was privileged tax information.
00:35:42.820
So it seems kind of like something's wrong there if a foreign government has access to
00:35:56.220
What, how on earth does Canada know about our NFA firearms?
00:35:58.620
Well, that little video was put on our radar by our new friend, Glenn Tookscherer.
00:36:06.540
There's a lot of C's, H's, and S's in your name.
00:36:13.320
Although I'm not so sure I did such great work on your name there, Glenn.
00:36:17.520
But I do appreciate the feedback and that was fun.
00:36:20.660
Well, everybody, thanks so much for watching the show.
00:36:23.640
I'll see everybody back here in the same time, in the same place next week.
00:36:26.840
And remember, as always, don't let the government tell you that you've had too much to think.