SHEILA GUNN REID ｜ Western Separation： How We Got Here — And Why It’s Not Going Away
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Summary
Join Sheila Gunned and Michael Wagner as they discuss the history of Western Separatism in Alberta, what caused it, who caused it and why it comes and goes, and why this time might be different.
Transcript
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the rest of the country is discovering the western separatist movement i'm sheila gun
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reed and you're watching the gun show did you see this clip of ontario premier doug ford this week
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look at this probably i forget about political stripes by by the way we have a prime minister
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down there and he's going to be sitting down and he's going to give it everything he can
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this is a time to unite the country not people saying oh i'm leaving the country or i'm doing
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this i'm doing that you know united we stand divided we fall he is telling alberta to calm down
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shut up and just tolerate the inequities of confederation he doesn't understand that he is
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exactly the problem albertans are done having ontario politicians tell us to shut up
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and take it that's exactly why there's a western separatist movement and that's why there's been
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a western separatist movement largely from the beginning of alberta but at least for the last
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several decades joining me today is somebody i would describe as an expert in the history of western
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separatism what caused it who caused it and why it comes and goes and why this time might be different
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so joining me now is somebody you may know but i might be introducing him to some of you for the first
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time michael wagner so joining me now is michael wagner he might be a familiar face to some of you
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who watched our documentary ungovernable he's one of the experts we called in for our documentary on
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the separatist sentiment whatever that means here in alberta and michael i think is an expert historian
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on this movement because a lot of the country is just discovering western separatism but it's not new
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it's been around for well i think forever as far as the province goes michael thanks so much for coming
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on this show and agreeing to this interview tell us a little bit about yourself before we get into
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um the uh i guess for a lot of the country the newly discovered concept of western separatism
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yeah thanks for having me sheila well as it pertains to our particular topic what's relevant for me is
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that uh i first got involved in politics in the early 1980s when i was a teenager there was something
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about what pierre trudeau was doing to alberta especially with the national energy program that for the
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first time i joined a political organization and a political party that were supporting alberta
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independence and it was if that's what triggered me was something that trudeau did triggered me and i
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got involved for the first time now i didn't stay consistent with it throughout my whole adult life
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but i i maintained an interest in it and when i was researching some other topics um during the 1990s
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into the 2000s i saw that there was a lot of material in the alberta separatist movement
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and i thought that there should be a history of it and it should be written by someone who understood it
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from the inside to give the proper perspective so eventually and in 2009 i came out with my first
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book on alberta separatism alberta separatism then and now which is a history of the movement
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from the perspective you know of someone from the inside in the sense that it showed what the what
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the movement was about why people were motivated to do it and so uh yeah i'm a i'm a writer i'm i've
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got a phd in political science from university of alberta my actually actually my my expertise at
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university was more education policy in alberta but i was always interested in alberta politics and
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because i had been interested or involved in early separatist movements i was really interested in
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in considering continuing to research that and uh hopefully you know bring out the real reasons as
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to why people were involved because there was a lot of criticism of it and a lot of misinformation
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about it and the people involved and so i wanted to have a sympathetic perspective when i wrote the
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history of it so someone could read that book and understand why people would be involved
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you know in it uh even if they you know weren't didn't say stay consistent the whole time so that's
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kind of in a nutshell like why this is pertinent for me as a as an individual i think your experience
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of not staying consistent the whole time is actually the story of the separatist movement
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in alberta it it ebbs and flows people get real revved up um particularly around a trudeau doing stupid
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things to alberta and then it sort of recedes when they get some of what they want um and we'll get
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into that history a little bit but now that i have you what do you you know like you talk about
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the misinformation around the separatist movement that there are a bunch of you know bucktooth
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fringe radical yokels um but really that's not the case um who makes up the separatist movement
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well like it's it's average albertans for the most part like it's always been more of a populist
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movement than an elite movement you know i see stuff in the media saying that this is an astroturf
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movement it's being controlled by some wealthy people in ucp or something that's so false like
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when you go to the meetings it's average people like especially in real areas there's farmers and
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and uh and tradesmen and laborers and stuff very very rarely will you see someone outside of that
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kind of um you know demographic so it's always been a populist movement from the ground up although
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i would say in the early 80s there was a lot of oil men involved um you know the oil industry was
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what was particularly under attack in the 1970s and early 1980s and and some of the those men were
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willing to go out on a limb you know to support it publicly and and i think they got hurt by it uh
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in their careers or or in their companies so so nowadays when when the federal government attacks
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oil industry the oil men seem to keep quiet for the most part you know they don't speak out
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publicly like they used to in the early 80s and i think that might be because of the experience of
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the early 1980s and so it's it's just common alberta folk that i've seen involved in those
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meetings like when i when i go to the meetings for speaking and stuff like that it's not like there's
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major leaders you know uh it's just regular people yeah it feels really grassroots i mean there's really
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no political organization behind it at this point it's just people who have just had enough
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of uh the way they're treated within confederation i want to ask you about premier daniel smith's
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address to the province because on the outside looking in i know she's she's the premier of the
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province and she's you know of course if you're the premier of the province you are by nature a
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federalist but she did take that approach where she said these people are not fringe radicals on
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either side of the debate they're your friends they're your neighbors they've had enough and they
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have a different viewpoint of how to move forward i thought i thought that was something that we
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haven't quite heard uh from political leadership in this country we saw how justin trudeau demonized
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people who didn't think like him and we see right now how former premier jason kenney is running
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around social media demonizing the separatist movement i think honestly underestimating albertans
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anger once again i think he did that once but i just wanted to get your comments on premier smith's
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address to the province about allowing uh albertans to have a fair shot at a referendum
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yeah well that's a very significant step forward from a historical perspective we've never had something
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like this in terms of the separatist movement you know we've never been this close to a referendum
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and having a premier who's willing to allow citizen initiative to create the referendum we've never
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had that before and there is right now momentum for that citizen initiative referendum so it's quite
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likely that that will you know happen in the next few months or a year or so and so i think that's
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very significant for her to say that and also for her as you mentioned to say that these are just
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regular people let's not demonize each other and i say that for you know people on the other side as
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well like there's no reason to demonize we can rationally talk about these things because they
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are rational issues about how do we deal with the federal government when we're under attack and i
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did very much like the part of her speech where she listed the various attacks that alberta has
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suffered over the last 10 years like she did a very good job of just summarizing why people are angry
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so much of her address i i was very favorable towards of course i'm for independence and she's for
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federalism or remaining within canada so that's where we would differ but much of her address was
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very positive i think and i think it's very helpful for moving us forward in this political situation
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to that kind of goals that we need to achieve yeah it doesn't have to melt our entire society down
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to have these conversations and i think that is one of the things that sets us apart as albertans
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is that we can engage in this civil discourse with our friends and neighbors without deciding that
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they are both evil and wrong as as we've seen from the federal government when people say things that
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they might disagree with you know we've had our prime minister wondering if there should be space in
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society for for people who disagree with him like what what are you going to do to us launch us into the
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surface of the moon like what what do you we live here we're from here um now i want to talk to you
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michael about the history of separatism i am in my mid-40s and i cannot and maybe i am in a bubble i'm a rural
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albertan farmer strong ties to the oil patch so maybe i'm not the i am a stereotype i get it i get it
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but as long as i can remember separatism has been just in the background and then in the forefront but
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well really it started under pierre trudeau like when we go back to the history of alberta
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there's always been discontent on the prairies with the federal government like right from the
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very beginning like for more than 100 years so during the early 20th century there were lots of
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reform movements like farmers movements and during the 20s the federal progressive party of
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canada was the dominant party on the on the prairies you know because people here turned to
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alternative parties they turned away from mainstream parties these were ways of dealing
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with their concerns with central canada and you know that went on throughout much of the 20th
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century but but there was no movement for independence until pierre trudeau came into power
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so he i call him the father of the alberta separatist movement because he created it through his policies
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like first with the official languages act which you know made french more prominent here than ever
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before now that was kind of minor but that was kind of the trigger for the first few people to
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create organizations but the big change happened in 1973 there was a war in the
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middle east and the price of oil skyrocketed it went from about three dollars a barrel to about
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twelve dollars a barrel in just a few weeks so this was the beginning of the energy crisis
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so pierre trudeau because alberta was going to be raking in so much money from its oil finally
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pierre trudeau put an export tax on oil so that alberta's oil exported to the united states much of
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that revenue would go to the federal government now that was unprecedented in canadian history
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and our premier peter lougheed called it the biggest ripoff in confederation history because the
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federal government was taking money from alberta's this was our resource we should be getting the
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money but trudeau also put a lower price on oil in canada than the world price so whether alberta
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sold its oil to the united states or whether we sold the oil within canada we were getting much
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less than what we should have so throughout the 1970s you know our premier peter lougheed was fighting
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with trudeau over oil pricing alberta was getting you know pretty good revenue but we were a lot of that
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revenue was going to the federal government that shouldn't have and then um you know there was a a federal
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election in 1980 where pierre trudeau was coming back and during that election campaign and this
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is very significant you know the liberals explicitly campaigned against alberta during that campaign
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it was the most regionally divisive political campaign in canadian history i think it's a very
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it's a significant precedent you know where the famous line from keith davey the liberal campaign
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activist was screw the west will take the rest and that's what they did and so right after they
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were re-elected with that divisive election they brought in the national energy program and that was the
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biggest trigger of all for the organization of the separatist movement in alberta like that's when
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it went big for the really for the really big for the first time and we ended up with you know in
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1982 there was a by-election where the western canada concept party elected one of their members to
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the alberta legislature he was the first and only separatist ever elected in western canada because of
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that uproar of the national energy program and because of pierre trudeau now after pierre trudeau ended up
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leaving of course in 1984 and eventually he's replaced by brian marooney and the movement started to die
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out because we thought well all of alberta's members of parliament with were with the progressive
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conservative party and brian marooney was a progressive conservative prime minister so
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everything is going to be fine for the west now he's going to get rid of the national energy program
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and so on but there was a very significant event in 1986 canada had bought the cf-18 fighter jets
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and they those needed to be maintained by particular facilities and there was only two
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cities in canada with those facilities winnipeg and montreal so the government held a competition to see
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which city would best maintain the cf-18 fighter jets so according to the government's criteria
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winnipeg won the contract so marooney awarded it to montreal obviously for political considerations
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so that created a very big uproar in the west and that led to the creation of the reform party of canada
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because people were so fed up i mean it was it was one thing for trudeau to be beating up on us
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but we felt betrayed because we had voted for this guy marooney and he backstabbed us so it led to a
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very high intensity of discontent with the federal government to the point where the reform party was
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created and in 1993 that when you know most of the seats in alberta and many seats in western canada
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and you know the idea of the reform party was the west wants in and i really think that is the genuine
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feeling of most albertans even those who you know right now are supporting independence the west has
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always wanted a voice in the national government that's been our complaint right from the very beginning
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they don't listen to us the senate is set up so that we don't have a voice in the national
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institutions and so that's why the reform party and others promoted the triple e senate a senate
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that would be elected by the people with equal number of senators from each province and would
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have effective powers like if we had a senate like that for canada western voices would be heard in
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the national government we wouldn't be shut out and we wouldn't feel the need to leave but you know
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eastern canada was not interested in reforming the senate and that was one of the you know one of
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the lessons we learned from the reform party is they don't want the west end the people in the east
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don't want the west end and they don't want to reform our institutions but but i do think that
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like in our heart of hearts most westerners would be happy with the west wants in with a solution like
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that rather than becoming independent but that's not an option to us anymore like we tried that
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you know the reform party shows that westerners will work very very hard to make canada work but
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if we don't get cooperation from people in the east we can't make canada work for our you know
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it doesn't benefit us at all like we don't get our voice heard so it's kind of like it's kind of like
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the separatist movement is the final step step it's the this the only other option we have we
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don't have anything else we can we can accept the status quo of the liberal government beating up on
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us or we can go independent like there's no middle ground although that's what danielle smith is trying
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to reach that middle ground you know well good luck to her but but but there's decades of history to
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show that that's not going to work so one of the things about pierre trudeau is he's the one who made
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separatism credible in alberta before 1980 when surveys were done about support for separatism
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the survey results were always single digits like you know four five six percent or something like
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that but since 1980 all of the polls that i'm aware of show at least double digit support it might be as
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low as 15 16 percent in the early days but it's very common you know throughout the 90s and more
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recently to get at least 20 support even 25 or more percent support for separatism so it was trudeau's
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government that gave separatism credibility in alberta a credibility it never had before
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so now people talk about it it's not some kind of wacko idea like going to the moon or something
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it's something that many albertans are familiar with and you know before 1980 it was not taken
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seriously at all even though there were organizations that were going it was trudeau himself with his
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national energy program that gave credibility to the independence movement and made it a permanent
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feature of alberta's political culture so uh i think i might have drifted away from your question
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here but but i just wanted to you know give a bit of that history there and explain that we've tried
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so hard the west has tried so hard you know with senate reform and political reform and stuff over
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several decades you know it's not a thing that happened yesterday and so this is why you know
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people who say we're upset because we lost one election that that is so trivializing what we're
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really concerned about you know we've had decades and decades of of um things that have been done to
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us that we that's built up frustration that we have frustration that's built up over several
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decades and it's kind of like that election was the last straw you know what i mean they don't want
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us in they don't want us they don't want to conserve a government that would better represent our our
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interests and so it's it's it's kind of decades of frustration that have been set off by that
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election loss so it's not just the election in itself that has created this current support for
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well and you know i remember in the 90s there was sort of this percolating separatist sentiment
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and then stephen harper gets elected that whole west wants in and then we're in and we get 10
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years of strong stable government but now we've ended up right back where we started and i think
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you know that really is for a lot of people who are a little bit longer in the tooth like me
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this has been a catalyst like look we tried it your way we're we're fighting in the courts we're doing
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everything we can we literally cannot vote any more conservative out here we can't give you any
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more mps there's nothing we can do like we've got conservative mps winning with 86 of the vote
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and that's still it it doesn't mean anything at the end of the day in the national government we still
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get stuck with the election being called before the ballots are even not even done being counting but
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before the polling stations are closed in the west
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absolutely like we it's been that way for such a long time so many federal elections
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we've known the results before you know our our um our voting stations are closed because
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the election results are essentially we know what the results are as soon as the ontario finishes voting
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all it takes is eastern canada i mean they're the those are the votes that count the most quebec and
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ontario and so once they finish voting they tell us what kind of government we're going to end up with
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you know and and so many westerners have felt frustrated by that that's it it shows us that
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we're not really having a voice in the national government because we've already the government's
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already elected before they count our votes so we don't really count in that sense you know what i mean
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and it's part of the frustration that many westerners have felt for decades that there there's no way that
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we can get our voice heard in the national government
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now i want to ask you about the i don't i don't know what to call it shut up a re
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directed at alberta every time we even muse about separation because quebec has a federal party
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dedicated to it everybody takes them seriously they're included in the national leaders debates
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they have a provincial party dedicated to it everybody takes them seriously apparently they have a veto
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over what alberta can and can't do with regard to our oil um they have an entire cultural that is
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culture that is infused with separatism they have separatist artists and separatist tv shows and uh
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every time we even think about like hey maybe we might be okay going it alone we're just told that it is
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not doable and that we're we're crazy people and i think it that is one of the glaring inequities
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of this country and it's one of the reasons we want to leave it's because we we can't even be
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treated the same way as the other provinces particularly the other one that well at least
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no you're you're absolutely right i mean quebec separatism has been taken very seriously
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you know since at least the 1960s if not before and even you know pierre trudeau one of his main
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reasons for getting involved in politics was to help to keep quebec within canada by by making
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changes within canada so they're always taken seriously as you say and we're not we're just
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considered to be a bunch of wacko radicals and all it does is contribute to the frustration that we feel
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like maybe if they took us seriously and addressed our concerns maybe we wouldn't feel this way you
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know it's not like we would necessarily get everything we want within canada but how about just
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like treating us like we're equal citizens you know what i mean like uh certainly quebecers are
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treated very well and uh you know even you know quebec had two independence referendums and they
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both failed and people say what happens if it fails well they didn't uh you know it didn't set
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quebec back when they lost those referendums they did not lose power in the central government
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it almost made it seem like the federal government would bend over backwards you know to cater to them
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even more than they were before so um they're they're taken seriously even when they lose even
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when their referendums are lost they're taken very seriously and that and the government federal
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government bends over backwards to try and make them feel at home within canada and they won't
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even take us seriously you know even when we just talk about it or bring up the issues like i say even
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with reform party that was our mps had those issues and we're bringing them to ottawa they still
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wouldn't take them seriously and they didn't even take the reform party seriously you know what i mean
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they didn't get the proper credit that they deserve for the representation of western interests
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in in ottawa so it doesn't matter what we do like even if we send our best people as members of
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parliament you know we still you know can't get taken seriously in ottawa you know even stephen
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harper let me just throw this in he tried to reform the senate like as prime minister he would
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introduce bills into the house of commons in the senate to try and bring senate reform because he did
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actually believe in that but even as prime minister he couldn't get those bills through you know and
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you think if the prime minister of canada cannot get bills through that will help the west
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like who could it's just that's kind of like the end of the road that's our top guy he can't do it
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nobody else can do it we're just left with one final option and that is for us to pursue independence
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that's what i believe michael if if people want to learn more about the history of western separatism
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tell people how they can get your book i have your book um but i know it's on amazon and i think it is
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a required reading for i think albertans who are considering our future going forward our friends
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in saskatchewan who actually seem to be a little bit more separatist than us but more quiet about it
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um and the rest of the country so that they can understand why we're so mad and why so many of us
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just aren't going to take it anymore yeah so my book that advocates for albert independence is called
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no other option self-determination for alberta and that's available on amazon.ca so if you if they
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search no other option or my name that should come up there's another book previously that i mentioned
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that came up that i did uh called alberta separatism than now which is actually history um it's not
00:23:22.540
available on amazon but it's available from a small homeschooling business in alberta called
00:23:26.800
merchant ship so if you go to merchant ship.ca you'll you'll be able to get alberta separatism than
00:23:32.040
and now and actually they have my other books there as well but but if someone just wants no
00:23:35.140
other option that's available from amazon and so that's easy for them to get there
00:23:38.480
michael thanks so much for taking the time to come on the show and fitting me into your very busy
00:23:44.460
schedule as an expert in alberta separatism uh you're suddenly very high in demand and i know
00:23:50.780
we're going to talk again very soon great thanks very much it's so good to be on your show
00:23:55.400
i always turn over the last portion of the show to you because without you there's no rebel news if
00:24:06.840
you want to send me an email on the show today provide to me your viewer feedback my email is
00:24:13.420
sheila at rebelnews.com put gun show letters in the subject line so i know why you're emailing me
00:24:18.460
but i frequently also go looking for viewer comments on the clips that we put up of the show
00:24:25.340
over on youtube or on rumble so if you are watching us over there uh or sharing the free version of those
00:24:33.060
clips with your friends encourage them to leave comments because that helps us get higher in the
00:24:37.940
algorithms it puts us in front of more eyeballs all right so we've got a couple of gun show letters
00:24:45.060
today from the email bag jeff writes to me and says doug ford is a true red liberal and will
00:24:53.220
continually suck up to carny yeah we saw that if you watched the intro to the show i showed doug ford
00:25:00.260
doing the thing doing the thing we're all mad about uh an ontario-based progressive politician
00:25:08.140
telling western conservatives to shut up and quit being so selfish anyway one thing that ford did that
00:25:16.520
really stands out is that he is red is his strong mayor's legislation yeah he gave more powers to the
00:25:23.280
cities and we know that a lot of the climate alarmism comes out of the cities you know ottawa has a huge
00:25:31.540
budget for this um and ottawa i mean the city not ottawa the place where the federal government is
00:25:37.520
and calgary has an enormous like billions of dollars in this stuff and so when you give extra powers over
00:25:45.240
to them to just waste money on madness where's the the check on power there that really says doug wants
00:25:54.340
to get rid of our democratic right to vote in our representatives it wouldn't surprise me that the fix was
00:25:59.760
in on our last federal election i'm not sure you know i don't know if the fix was in but i think it was
00:26:06.980
gerrymandered from the beginning you know uh proroguing parliament long enough for the liberals to replace
00:26:16.260
mark carney mark carney then turning his ire to the americans because he can't campaign on the liberal
00:26:23.260
record which was his record and then being anti-trump and then showing up in the white house to
00:26:30.360
thank trump for handing him the election and to uh commend trump on his leadership when during the
00:26:39.180
campaign carney's like our relationship with the americans is over as we know it and maybe we should
00:26:45.040
become europeans so like give me a break uh something ain't quite right and i think a lot of
00:26:53.640
people were had um but they should also should have known better anyways let's keep going i fully
00:27:00.700
support the ctf and what they try to achieve so get involved everyone the ctf that's the canadian
00:27:07.940
taxpayers federation needs all of us to help them yeah they are a big reason why we don't have a
00:27:13.860
consumer carbon tax right now is their advocacy on behalf of canadians and telling canadians what the
00:27:21.820
carbon tax was actually doing to them what it meant on your grocery bill what it meant every time you
00:27:27.360
filled up your car while the liberals were out there saying oh no no you're going to take back
00:27:32.900
more money than you give us as if as if the government's ever done that well everybody that's
00:27:39.640
the show for today thank you so much for tuning in i'll see everybody back here in the same time
00:27:43.260
in the same place next week and as always don't let the government tell you that you've had too much to