Rebel News Podcast - SPECIAL： Ezra Levant's in-depth interview with Tommy Robinson

00:00:00.000 Tommy, we all saw you get in the back of that police car, that police truck, what happened

00:00:24.680 after that? So everyone saw visibly I was arrested for breach of the peace. What I find surprising is

00:00:32.900 no one's ever mentioned breach of the peace. No one's ever mentioned the fact that's what I was

00:00:36.840 arrested for. I was arrested for breach of the peace and I was driven to Leeds Ellen Road police

00:00:41.760 station. So a 10 minute drive from the court. I got to the police station. Now, anyone who's been

00:00:48.520 arrested knows the first thing they do is they take you to the front desk where you're booked in for

00:00:53.460 your crime. You're asked if you want your solicitor and then you're put in a cell to wait for your

00:00:57.500 interview. This was different straight away. I wasn't booked into the police station.

00:01:02.920 I was held in a side room at the police station for probably 40 minutes, which straight away I was

00:01:09.240 thinking, the police station is not going to be busy. It's in the morning. And I was then taken,

00:01:16.300 I got brought to the front desk and told I'm being moved to court. I'm being taken straight to court.

00:01:20.780 Again, I asked for breach of the peace. They said no for contempt of court. So then they took me in a

00:01:28.520 police wagon in the back of the court and I was taken to the courtroom. What actually transpires is

00:01:36.360 that now when people have to ask why this happened in this way, because if they'd have arrested me

00:01:42.080 outside the court for contempt of court and everyone would have known I'd been arrested for contempt of

00:01:46.480 court, because my solicitor contacted the police station as soon as I'd been arrested. I said I

00:01:50.620 want a solicitor. They spoke with my solicitor and the police station told my solicitor, told my solicitor

00:01:57.560 Alison Gurdon, that I was being released. I wasn't released. And then when I arrived at the court,

00:02:04.720 I again asked for my legal multiple times. I said I want to speak with my solicitor. I was told I

00:02:10.560 couldn't speak with my solicitor. Now, if my solicitor had known, if there wasn't a breach of the peace and I'd

00:02:15.180 just been arrested for contempt of court, my solicitor would have known to send a representative

00:02:18.980 to the court. But they refused me point blank. I was not allowed the opportunity to speak with my

00:02:23.680 solicitor. So why did they tell your solicitor that you had been released if you had not been

00:02:29.040 released? Did you ever walk free of the police station or the courthouse? No, I was transported.

00:02:34.180 I was transported straight from the police station in the van, straight into court, straight into the

00:02:38.100 cell, of court, and then refused the opportunity to speak with my lawyers and brought up before the judge.

00:02:45.600 I stood before the judge where he watched, I'd say, seven minutes of the video. Remember, it was over an hour

00:02:51.560 long. He watched seven minutes. I was then put back down in the cell. Still, I was asking for my solicitor.

00:02:56.760 I was then a prepared lawyer that was at the court, was then put before me, where I told him, again,

00:03:07.600 I want to speak to my solicitor. So this was a public defender?

00:03:10.860 A public defender, who I asked, again, can I speak to my solicitor? And I asked him, what is it I've said?

00:03:19.380 What is it I've done? I was not told. He just said contempt of court. I said, but what?

00:03:25.560 What? It's still sitting here now. Bearing in mind, I'm going to face another trial in a few weeks.

00:03:31.200 I've still not been told what I've said. Can I take you back to when you first met the judge and

00:03:36.460 he watched five or seven minutes of the video? Did he ask you any questions or say anything?

00:03:41.840 Or did you just sit there while he watched it? I sat there while I watched it. I made it clear that

00:03:47.340 if there was a problem, I'd delete it. If there's a problem with it, I would delete it

00:03:52.320 instantly if there was a problem. I think that lots of people have read so many things. I remember

00:03:58.360 getting to prison and reading in reports that I pled guilty. I was never asked if I was guilty

00:04:05.140 or not guilty. I was never asked. I was never told what crime I'd committed. So bearing in mind,

00:04:11.260 I know this. I know what's happened in court. I know that I'd asked, can it not get adjourned

00:04:17.240 so that I can speak with a QC? In fact, that come out in my appeal because in the defendant's

00:04:22.920 notes, it said that I'd asked and said, I want to speak to a QC. And I was sentenced to 13 months

00:04:28.480 in prison. So the first time you went before the judge and he reviewed the video, did you have your

00:04:34.500 public defender lawyer with you then? No, I had no one with me then. So then when you were given this

00:04:39.540 public defender, did you appear before the judge a second time? I did. I appeared before the judge a

00:04:44.620 second time where the defence man said that basically if he went up and apologised, then

00:04:52.120 that's it. And we went through previous cases. So that people understand, like Jamie Bolger's

00:04:59.480 killers live under a court order that no one can name them. People have named them. They've been

00:05:05.080 before court. No one's ever been put in prison. Rod Liddle, Rod Liddle, who's a reporter for the

00:05:11.220 Sunday Times. He breached a reporting restriction on the Stephen Lawrence murder trial. He apparently

00:05:19.220 nearly jeopardised the trial. He was given a fine. No one, if you go through the law, so as well,

00:05:26.300 if you read the law on contempt of court, which was so disheartening for me. And so I'd been put in

00:05:32.520 prison. I'm sat in prison. I'm reading all of these newspaper reports. Not one journalist,

00:05:37.720 no one, to go and get the transcripts from that court, to go and find out what was said in that

00:05:43.480 court. If anyone would have done that, they'd have instantly seen I did not plead guilty, that I was

00:05:47.340 not given a fair trial, that it was over in minutes. They'd have seen all of this.

00:05:51.400 I thought you had pled guilty because I read that in so many newspapers. I assumed you did,

00:05:56.900 either under bad advice or no advice. Did the judge ask you whether or not you admitted or

00:06:03.500 to anything? Did he ask you any questions? No, he didn't ask me any questions, no. I did not open

00:06:08.400 my mouth the whole time. Did the judge particularise anything you said or did wrong?

00:06:14.740 Did he say you said this word or you did that thing? Nothing, actually. Now, everything I said

00:06:19.280 outside court that day was already in the public domain. I knew things. I still know things about

00:06:24.720 that case, about results of that case. I still know lots of things that I've never mentioned

00:06:30.460 because I was aware that you couldn't mention them. But the judge, and then when the judge

00:06:35.580 sentenced me, so he sentenced me apparently for breaching the reporting restriction. But then in

00:06:40.040 his words of what he sentenced me for, which come out in the High Court of Appeal, it was more to do

00:06:44.040 with the fact that I was mentioning that they were Muslim. And so it seemed that, and he talked about

00:06:49.160 me, the risk of me prejudicing the trial. And bearing in mind, I would do nothing. I wouldn't do

00:06:55.720 nothing that I thought could jeopardise these trials. It would go against everything I stand

00:07:02.000 for and everything I want. The trial had finished. I stood outside court. I made sure that I didn't

00:07:07.420 video any members of the jury, because I know you can't, any members of the public. I literally,

00:07:13.840 the crime that I was sent to prison for was breaching the reporting restriction. And two weeks

00:07:18.080 after I was sent to prison, obviously I'm reading everything, I read that the Scottish Telegraph

00:07:22.980 newspaper, breached two reporting restrictions, a week after I went to jail. Again, if we go to the

00:07:30.260 laws, the law and the advisory to the government is that they should not send any, if anyone breaches

00:07:37.960 a reporting restriction, it shouldn't even be the individual journalist who gets done, it should be

00:07:41.840 the company they work for. And they strongly advise that all it should be is a fine. Now, as everyone's

00:07:47.820 seen, I was sent to prison. Did your lawyer, the public defender who was assigned to you,

00:07:54.080 did he indicate that he had any experience with contempt of court law? Was he familiar with

00:08:01.040 your legal history? No, he just indicated that we don't want to upset the judge.

00:08:07.680 Did he ask for a delay of a week or two? Did he ask for any time for you to prepare or for him to

00:08:15.120 prepare? No. No. How long were you actually in the court for?

00:08:22.660 Ten minutes. In fact, they were desperate to do it before lunch. Lunch would have been at one o'clock.

00:08:30.780 They were desperate to do it before lunch, but I was still arguing the point with everybody that I

00:08:35.840 wanted to speak to my solicitors. And so it went over lunch. If not, I'd have been sent to prison before

00:08:40.980 lunch, before one o'clock. Then they broke for the hour lunch. So when they broke for the hour lunch,

00:08:47.060 then I was again saying, I just wanted to speak to my solicitor. Did you ask the judge for a delay

00:08:56.420 or for the ability to speak to your own lawyer? No, I didn't open my mouth. I didn't get a chance

00:09:03.520 to speak. But you asked the police? I asked the police. I asked the court clerks. I asked the

00:09:09.380 person who'd come. I pressed the button on my cell, which is all documented. I pressed the button

00:09:13.820 to come to my cell. I said, I need to speak to my solicitor. I need to speak to my solicitor. Not a

00:09:17.720 solicitor that's just been put in front of me by the state, essentially. A solicitor that I trust,

00:09:24.240 a solicitor that I know is going to work for my best interest. That's who I want to speak to.

00:09:27.680 Did anyone else speak in your hearing? Did any court police? There was a picture circulating on

00:09:34.000 the internet of some people looking down from a brick building. I don't know if that was the judge

00:09:39.340 or court police or a clerk. So that was the judge and the police that arrested me. So that was the

00:09:44.080 judge. When I was outside court, which I wasn't aware of until I come out, that was the judge watching

00:09:48.060 down. And then the police come down and arrested me. Did they say anything in court? No. I was actually

00:09:56.300 watching your Facebook live stream that day, May 25th from Canada. Yeah. And I remember when you read

00:10:05.140 the names of some of the accused men. And I think you were reading them from a BBC website. Is that

00:10:14.340 correct? I read them from a BBC website. There's lots of, so everything, I just read out.

00:10:19.880 Did you tell that to the judge? Because if, how could you reading something off a BBC website

00:10:26.560 that was being published at the same time, how could that be contempt of court?

00:10:29.840 This is the problem. The judge hasn't told us what was contempt of court. So he sentenced me to prison

00:10:34.760 without needing to tell anyone. In the training day we spent, in the training days we spent to

00:10:41.920 understand contempt of court, which I didn't understand, is you're not allowed to stand on court.

00:10:46.020 I didn't understand at Canterbury. You're not allowed to stand on the court property.

00:10:49.240 And so you didn't...

00:10:49.960 That's contempt of court.

00:10:50.700 You didn't in Leeds.

00:10:51.760 I didn't in Leeds. I actually asked the police officer, where's the land lie? And he agreed.

00:10:56.480 So I didn't in Leeds. I also, every time you speak of an offence, you have to speak of an

00:11:01.240 alleged offence. No matter how much evidence there is, I knew those men were guilty as soon

00:11:05.100 as I knew they did, but you have to say alleged offence.

00:11:07.300 And you checked that box too. I thought you'd been very careful.

00:11:11.720 I was very careful.

00:11:13.160 So what exactly... So you still don't know what they put you away for because the judge

00:11:17.240 never said.

00:11:17.960 No, the judge...

00:11:18.620 To this day. To this day that you don't know what you've said wrong.

00:11:21.640 No, I have no idea. I have no idea. I'm about to stand to trial again in a number of weeks.

00:11:26.760 Still, today, we have not been told what it is. So I expect they'll throw it on us a week

00:11:32.800 before maybe.

00:11:33.400 It was shocking. I want to ask you one last thing about that court hearing, because you say

00:11:37.820 it was seven minutes. That's incredible to me.

00:11:41.720 Given that your video itself was more than an hour.

00:11:44.080 I hadn't watched the video. Hadn't watched the video. It would have been impossible.

00:11:48.180 It would have been impossible for the judge to have watched the video.

00:11:51.100 It takes an hour to watch the video.

00:11:53.600 And if it had watched the full video, it had seen all the steps and all the reasonable

00:11:57.580 things I made and said, the different interactions I had with the public. I made sure that I stayed

00:12:03.760 within the law on what I'd been taught was within the law.

00:12:08.360 When you were convicted, did the judge in any way indicate the difference between being

00:12:16.260 a criminal convict, someone with a guilty mind who broke the law willingly, versus civil

00:12:25.040 contempt? Did the judge differentiate between the two in the sentence he issued?

00:12:31.040 No, the judge didn't mention. So I was, in fact, myself. So for contempt of court, you

00:12:38.620 cannot be a criminal prisoner. You're a civil prisoner. And what's the difference in how

00:12:43.680 a criminal prisoner and a civil prisoner are treated?

00:12:45.720 So civil prisoners have more rights. Civil prisoner have as many visits as you want. So people

00:12:53.180 can come in and visit you, your family.

00:12:55.260 Every day?

00:12:55.700 Every day. Also, they're allowed to spend £50 per week buying food, buying toiletries,

00:13:02.440 buying whatever they want off of the shopping system within the prison. Also, so for my crime,

00:13:08.540 for the crime of contempt of court...

00:13:10.160 Not even a crime, though.

00:13:10.900 No, no, no. You go to an open prison. So you'd be in an open prison where you go home

00:13:17.660 at weekends. Yeah, it's a category D offence, a completely minimal, completely zero risk offence

00:13:24.960 of contempt of court. That's what the guidelines are. That's what the criteria is. That's how

00:13:30.440 a prisoner should be held.

00:13:31.500 So a civil prisoner gets as many visits as he likes, gets to spend £50 a week on whatever...

00:13:39.300 You can buy food, shopping, and also...

00:13:42.240 And how far does £50 go into prison? Is it cheap?

00:13:44.960 No, it goes quite well. So the difference, here's when we get to the difference. So I was put into

00:13:49.560 prison and I was held as a criminal prisoner. Now, people may think that was a mistake, yeah?

00:13:56.220 I was held as a criminal prisoner, even though I can't possibly be held as a criminal prisoner

00:14:01.000 because it's a civil crime. Even though, which we have all the evidence of this, my solicitors

00:14:06.760 made the prison aware instantly he's being wrongly held if you're not... Like, if you're

00:14:12.620 holding him as a criminal prisoner with... Because I was only allowed to spend £12 a week.

00:14:17.040 And we'll get to why that's important in a minute, why spending money was important in

00:14:21.300 your case. But why don't we pick up from when the judge issued the sentence? 13 months.

00:14:27.340 Were you shocked?

00:14:28.740 Yeah, of course. Yeah, I was gobsmacked. I was gobsmacked. But I was gobsmacked, but

00:14:33.780 at the same time... At the same time, for what has happened over the past 10 years with myself,

00:14:43.880 it's not... I know... I've known, and even in the most recent demonstration when we had

00:14:49.280 a day for freedom in London, I was saying, and I kept saying to everyone, I wonder what

00:14:53.520 they're going to do next to try and stop. Because they can see... Anyone can see the momentum

00:14:58.380 building. The public are not listening anymore. They're not buying the media spin on things.

00:15:04.460 They're seeing the reality of the problems the country faces. And the attempts to make me the

00:15:10.980 most hated man in Britain have completely failed. And I was worried. I was very worried. I've been

00:15:17.240 very worried about what they're going to do next. I'm very worried now about what they're going to

00:15:22.100 do next. This prison sentence, I land in HMP Hull. Now, I was worried when I went to prison,

00:15:28.360 because I was in Leeds. I thought I'd go to Bradford, which is one of the biggest Muslim

00:15:31.820 populations of our country. I thought I'd go to that prison. I was put to Hull, because that prison

00:15:38.500 was full, I believe. I was taken to Hull. And then I was put into normal location, which is what I

00:15:46.040 want. What I wanted. I wanted to be treated normally. I was put into normal location where I spent two days

00:15:51.600 days. And after two days, I was in the prison. Prisoner guards come to get me and said, you're

00:15:56.880 being moved. Now, I believe this at the time, Lord Pearson had wrote a letter demanding my safety,

00:16:07.300 which I was grateful for, because I was on this induction wing. Now, so that people understand,

00:16:13.000 when you get to prison, if you ask for protection, if you say, I'm scared, I need help,

00:16:18.000 then you'll be housed with the paedophiles. I'm never going to do that, ever. It's never,

00:16:25.780 ever going to happen. And they know that as well. So I would never do that. So because I've done

00:16:31.340 nothing to deserve that, and I'll end up hurting one of them. So that's never going to happen. So I

00:16:36.200 was put into normal location. Now, when I was on the wing, there were some Muslims there. And I did

00:16:39.980 sense that possibly that it could turn violent. But there was, so people understand, out of a wing

00:16:47.360 of 100 prisoners, there were seven Muslims. Seven percent of HMP whole is Muslim. Now, the prison

00:16:56.700 themselves made the decision to put me in the hospital. Every prison has a hospital, or this

00:17:01.940 prison had a hospital. They put me in hospital where there were no Muslims. And I was separated

00:17:06.280 completely from the prison population. When I had, when my family got finally in to see me after

00:17:11.840 three weeks. Three weeks?

00:17:14.100 Yeah. After three weeks was when my family got in, got a visit booked.

00:17:19.700 Well, let me ask you about that. So all in the course of a few hours, you were arrested,

00:17:26.200 tried, convicted, sentenced, and shipped off to HMP Hull. What, five hours?

00:17:32.920 Five hours. Well, it is less than that, because by the time they actually, yeah,

00:17:36.280 less than that. When was the first time you talked to your wife?

00:17:42.400 So they give you a, they give you a pound phone credit when you get to jail. So I rang,

00:17:46.220 I rang my wife at that point. So that night?

00:17:48.440 That night, yeah. She must have been shocked.

00:17:52.880 First thing I asked her is, have you had enough yet?

00:17:59.940 And it took three weeks for her to be able to visit you.

00:18:02.260 It took three, and then they, you have a visiting hall. Now the prison made the decision that it was

00:18:09.260 not safe for me to have a visit in the visiting hall. Probably right. And they, so I had a private

00:18:15.200 visit. And I had, that was when I sent a letter out. And so I got my visit, my family visited me on the

00:18:26.240 Sunday. On the Friday, I had my legal visit booked, where my QC and my solicitor, Carson Kaye, were due

00:18:37.840 to see me.

00:18:38.960 So this is still at HMP Hull?

00:18:40.080 This is HMP Hull. And this is for the appeal. Because obviously, bear in mind, I know what's

00:18:45.100 going on in court. I've explained it to my solicitors. My solicitors have then contacted the court for the

00:18:50.640 transcripts from the court. The court didn't give them the transcripts. They give them half of the

00:18:54.840 transcripts. So my solicitors still were in a position where I hadn't met them personally. I'd only

00:19:00.700 spoke to them via the video, because in the prison, you have a video link, so you can talk through the

00:19:04.480 camera to your solicitor. So I spoke to my solicitor. I said, I want to appear, obviously, I want to

00:19:09.120 appeal all of this. I can't believe what's happened. So my, my finally, the date set for me to sit down

00:19:16.280 was, I'd have been in jail a month. And the date that I'd been able, and the reason for them not being

00:19:22.020 able to sit down was because the court had not give us all the information. So then I got, they

00:19:29.220 would come and see me on a Friday, my family visited me on a Sunday, Monday morning. And can I, whilst

00:19:34.660 I'm at, I've been in five prisons before, in previous years, and Hull generally was a prison

00:19:42.180 where the prison staff ruled the prison, not the prisoners, the prison staff. And the staff were

00:19:48.500 absolutely, because I was isolated from the prison population, the prison staff would open my door

00:19:55.000 for two hours a day, and I would spend two hours a day interacting with them. Now, bearing in my,

00:19:59.580 my concern the whole time was how I spent my sentence in 2012, and the long-term effect that

00:20:05.040 had on me. You mean by being in solitary confinement? By being in solitary confinement. The psychological

00:20:08.700 effect, is that what you mean? Yeah, the psychological effect, which you don't realize at the time.

00:20:12.280 I didn't realize at the time. So you were in the hospital wing of HMP Hull, but you were there

00:20:17.860 by yourself. Yep. And I was, I was, because they could section off the door at the other end to

00:20:23.920 the other prisoners. So I was allowed out for two hours a day where I interacted, like, like we're

00:20:29.840 talking now, with the prison staff. So no other prisoners, but prison staff. And they were friendly

00:20:36.400 enough. Absolutely brilliant. Outstanding, actually. So in a difficult job. Did you have a chance to do

00:20:41.860 any exercise? Yeah. And for one hour, so every single morning, they'd open my door, and they'd be

00:20:47.480 in the hospital, there'd be a little room, which would have a, have a, like a little mini gym. So

00:20:53.160 I'd be allowed to use that every morning. And then they'd also, for an hour and a half a day, take me

00:20:58.080 outside, where I'd sit in a garden, where they'd sit and have their break, or I'd sit with the prison

00:21:03.160 staff. Again, I'd sit and socialize and talk to the prison staff, which ideally I'd rather just

00:21:10.440 been, because, so that people understand as well. I had a TV this whole time, yeah? So that people

00:21:17.020 understand the British prison system. When you go to prison, every prisoner is given a TV. Every

00:21:21.500 prisoner. Okay. You have a TV in your cell. Your cell door would open at approximately eight o'clock in

00:21:26.160 the morning. You'd get a job. You'd go to work. You'd, your cell door would lock about six o'clock

00:21:33.080 in the evening. So you'd be out of your cell. You'd be working. You'd be interacting. You'd have

00:21:39.080 pool tables, snooker tables, football pitches. You'd play football. That's the prison system.

00:21:44.800 Yeah? That's... Just to keep you in a routine, maybe give you some skills, earn some money.

00:21:49.540 So it's a regime. Everyone has to have a prison regime. That's your general regime. My regime was

00:21:56.100 very limited whilst I was in Hull, but I wasn't complaining. Okay? Because I was safe.

00:22:01.120 I was still interacting. So I thought, I'll be all right here. Yeah? But you were the only

00:22:07.300 civil prisoner in Hull, I bet. Is that right? Yeah, I was the only civil prisoner. I mean,

00:22:10.820 the idea... And Hull were made aware, because my solicitors made them aware, that actually,

00:22:15.860 you have to let me have a visit each day. And actually, what... Because out... So you understand,

00:22:20.560 £12 a week. Now, it didn't... It wasn't a problem at Hull. Because at Hull, they'd take me out of my cell.

00:22:27.140 I'd go to the canteen, and I'd see the prisoners who were serving the food. And you pick your food,

00:22:33.260 and they give you it. So I'd see... I'd visually see my food.

00:22:37.040 So it was like a cafeteria, and you'd take your tray, and they'd scoop the potatoes,

00:22:41.800 and they'd scoop things like... That's it. And then you'd put it into your cell.

00:22:44.780 Now... So you would eat as much as you felt like, and you would see the food right before your eyes.

00:22:49.900 Yeah, fine. Yeah. I'd see the food. So I knew nothing could be done to that food. And I didn't have

00:22:54.700 that worry. And then... And out of my £12 a week, actually, whilst I was in Hull, I'd spend £12

00:23:00.040 on the phone. So I could keep in contact with my family. So I could speak to my wife, my children.

00:23:06.460 And the reason we're talking about food, and interaction with other prisoners,

00:23:11.940 and safety, and money, is because HMP Hull, which you say was passable,

00:23:23.240 you were suddenly and without explanation moved. Is that correct?

00:23:27.580 So, as I say, my family saw me on the Sunday. Yeah.

00:23:32.520 They went away from the me and happy, because I told them, I'm fine here.

00:23:37.220 And you saw your kids for the first time then, too?

00:23:39.360 Yeah. My QC is due to see me and my solicitor on the Friday. And on the Monday,

00:23:42.940 the day after my visit, they just come in first thing in the morning and said,

00:23:47.340 get your stuff packed, you're going.

00:23:50.000 Did they say where you're going to?

00:23:51.420 No, they wouldn't tell me. So there was a big secret where they said,

00:23:55.380 we're not allowed to say. And then all the staff who had been holding me on the unit

00:24:00.980 were all as surprised as me, because they were like, they thought,

00:24:05.380 to have you in this prison, and to have you safe, and to have it calm, and to have no problems.

00:24:13.500 That's a huge success.

00:24:15.060 Massive success for the prison system.

00:24:16.340 If the goal is the rule of law.

00:24:20.340 Well, the goal wasn't that.

00:24:21.280 Safety.

00:24:22.280 The goal wasn't that, which was established.

00:24:24.100 So everything was going, obviously no complaint. I mean, you didn't interact with anyone.

00:24:27.700 I didn't put in a prison complaint. I actually asked people publicly to stay away from the prison,

00:24:32.960 to not protest the prison, that I was being held in fair conditions.

00:24:39.880 So everything was fine?

00:24:41.080 Because obviously the prison I put in the position, the prison's governor is as well,

00:24:45.240 which he made the decision to put me on the hospital wing.

00:24:47.600 And that's because he has a duty of care for my safety.

00:24:49.420 That's probably a good decision, is what you're saying?

00:24:50.960 I'd say, yeah, yeah. I'd say, going by my previous prison sentences,

00:24:54.740 where I basically fought my way through them in different prisons.

00:24:57.900 Look, he'd done what he thought, he'd done what would limit violence against me.

00:25:08.480 You shouldn't have been in there in the first place since you weren't a criminal prisoner,

00:25:11.540 but given that you were wrongly put in prison, that was as good as it was going to get.

00:25:15.280 So you can still be a civil prisoner held in prisons.

00:25:19.000 But what it means is, so you can be in there, but what it means is you have more rights.

00:25:24.800 Okay, so...

00:25:26.800 Because you're not a criminal.

00:25:28.180 You meet your family on the Sunday.

00:25:31.900 In five days, you're about to meet your lawyers for the first time.

00:25:35.080 To go through our appeal, basically to get me out.

00:25:39.480 But instead, the day after you meet your family, you're told you're moved.

00:25:44.560 And just so you know, my appointment's booked. I've been given the appointment slip.

00:25:48.700 So the prisoner aware that my QC and my defence lawyer are coming to see me on the Friday,

00:25:52.400 it's all booked in. I've previously spoke to them three times via a video in the prison.

00:25:59.720 I'm then moved to H&P only.

00:26:01.920 And anyone ever explain to you why?

00:26:05.540 No.

00:26:06.680 No. Still, in fact, when I got to only, we'll go through what happened.

00:26:10.200 When I got to only, and I'm asking the head governor of the prison,

00:26:14.120 why have you took me here? He said, it's above my pay grade.

00:26:17.700 That's all the answers I've got. It's above my pay grade.

00:26:19.740 Do you believe him?

00:26:20.280 No. I believe that, yeah, I believe that...

00:26:24.600 It wouldn't have been his decision.

00:26:26.040 It's not his decision. No, it's come from above them.

00:26:28.480 Like, so I've been moved to only, and the prison staff who dropped me there,

00:26:33.380 they took me in a taxi. So the prison staff who took me in a taxi,

00:26:36.780 so they put you in a taxi, handcuffed to Evil One, and they sit.

00:26:39.400 And the prison staff that are taking me there, I'm saying like, look, I know only prison.

00:26:44.400 Only prison is a London catchment.

00:26:46.480 So everyone who goes to jail from London, we know the demographic of London.

00:26:50.620 Everyone who goes to jail from London, London has the biggest Muslim population of this country.

00:26:54.320 Everyone who goes to prison from London, only is one of those catchment prisons.

00:27:00.040 So I didn't know the demographic facts at the time,

00:27:03.540 but I knew it would be heavily populated with a Muslim population.

00:27:06.640 So I kept asking again, what's been sorted? Has something been sorted?

00:27:11.560 And they said, it would have had to have been.

00:27:13.360 There's no way our governor could have agreed with that governor.

00:27:16.040 Yeah, that wouldn't be for them to decide.

00:27:17.620 No, they would have had to sort something out.

00:27:20.000 And this wouldn't have been for the judge back in Leeds to decide.

00:27:23.620 He wouldn't...

00:27:24.020 As out of his hands, I mean, he sends you to prison.

00:27:25.480 This would be a decision made by the prison authority.

00:27:30.380 Prison authority and the head of the prison authority, which are politicians.

00:27:33.240 Yeah.

00:27:33.620 Essentially.

00:27:34.300 So basically, and bearing in mind, we all know now what fuss had gone on outside of prison

00:27:41.840 in the first three weeks of my prison sentence.

00:27:44.260 You're talking about the Save Tommy.

00:27:45.760 Huge demonstrations, a Free Tommy campaign.

00:27:48.280 So this was punishing you, or it looks like, at least, to punish you because there was grassroots support?

00:27:57.220 Well, I don't know.

00:27:57.680 It looks.

00:27:57.920 Yeah, it looks like they weren't happy with the fact that I would have been able to serve

00:28:06.440 a fairly normal prison sentence.

00:28:08.800 So I was taken from one of the lowest Muslim population prisons in the UK, and I was put

00:28:13.020 in H&P Onley.

00:28:13.980 Onley has the highest Muslim population of any CCAT prison in the UK.

00:28:19.380 Okay.

00:28:19.780 So tell me what it was like going from Hull to Onley.

00:28:22.960 So I'm put in, I get to reception of Onley, where you're assessed, where you have a talk.

00:28:30.280 I asked them, I guess you know who I am.

00:28:34.580 They said, yes, we do.

00:28:36.220 I said, okay.

00:28:37.220 So what's been sorted?

00:28:39.920 Has anything been sorted?

00:28:40.860 Where am I going in this prison?

00:28:43.080 And he goes, oh, you're going on to the induction wing.

00:28:47.880 I said, okay.

00:28:48.940 Like, I was surprised.

00:28:50.960 I said, okay.

00:28:52.080 And then they sent the governor come in.

00:28:55.640 This was the number one governor.

00:28:56.900 That's what we would call a warden in North America.

00:28:59.680 The head warden, the person in charge.

00:29:00.460 Yeah.

00:29:00.900 The person in charge come in.

00:29:02.320 I made them aware of my concerns of what I thought the prison system were doing.

00:29:07.380 And tell me what those concerns are.

00:29:09.900 My concerns were that I think they've intentionally taken me from a place of safety, and they're now

00:29:14.900 going to have me killed.

00:29:16.560 And what did he say?

00:29:18.360 He said, you're under the name Yaxley Leonard, not Tommy Robinson.

00:29:21.700 You'll be fine.

00:29:22.660 Oh, my God.

00:29:23.780 Yeah, that's actually what I'm dealing with.

00:29:25.640 No one will know who I am.

00:29:27.660 Oh, my God.

00:29:28.620 Did he say it with a straight face?

00:29:30.480 No, he said it with a straight face.

00:29:32.360 But then it's like, then he said, obviously, you're aware.

00:29:37.160 And I said, I know the size of the Muslim population in this prison.

00:29:41.240 And he kept saying, like, his robot programmed spiel of, we are a prison with a large, diverse

00:29:48.960 population.

00:29:50.220 I said, no, no, no, no.

00:29:51.720 No, you're a prison with a large Muslim population.

00:29:54.700 It's not diverse, in fact.

00:29:55.700 You've got a large Muslim population.

00:29:57.440 And the diversity of the prison is not my problem.

00:29:59.540 I don't care if the prison was 100% black and you put me in there.

00:30:02.920 My problem is that you have a large Muslim population.

00:30:06.760 And statistics and facts show that a certain percentage of those people outside of prison,

00:30:11.900 if we look at outside of prison, 30% of British Muslims believe that someone, violence is

00:30:17.140 acceptable to someone who's insulted the Prophet Muhammad, 30%.

00:30:19.780 You go in the prison system, the violent radicalized prison system with violent offenders, that's

00:30:26.840 going to rise.

00:30:27.900 So then he said, well, what you need to do is you need to self-isolate.

00:30:33.840 Yeah.

00:30:34.920 So I've then said, well, I'm not going to self-isolate.

00:30:37.700 Now, what he wants me to do is willingly isolate myself.

00:30:41.940 So when they put me on the wing, willingly keep my door locked and say that I want to

00:30:46.720 self-isolate.

00:30:47.440 I willingly want to be isolated.

00:30:49.320 I'm not going to do that because I know what six months of being isolated is going to

00:30:53.660 do to me.

00:30:54.540 I'd rather.

00:30:55.340 And then he said, his comments are, you'll be in danger, though, if you go out of your

00:30:59.420 cell.

00:30:59.720 Because I said, I'm not going to self-isolate.

00:31:01.460 And he said, you'll be in danger.

00:31:02.320 I said, I'm in danger every time I walk out my front door.

00:31:04.000 I still walk out of it.

00:31:04.700 Now, I'm going to, you put, I said, I'm going to walk straight out of that door and

00:31:10.420 whatever.

00:31:10.960 And I'm going to, I'm going to defend myself in any situation.

00:31:15.100 At which point he said, well, I'm going to put you down the block then.

00:31:18.720 I said, can I, and I asked again, what risk assessment did you do before you brought me

00:31:25.520 from the lowest Muslim population prison to the highest?

00:31:28.200 And why have you done this?

00:31:30.480 Then I'm taken straight down to the block where, again, so people are aware, I didn't

00:31:36.600 ask for isolation.

00:31:37.700 I'm not asked to be segregated.

00:31:39.160 I was happy for them to open my door.

00:31:41.060 Okay.

00:31:41.980 Not happy in the sense that I probably would have been killed.

00:31:44.720 In fact, every member of the staff at the prison told me from that point on, you'd have got

00:31:49.580 murdered, man.

00:31:50.420 What?

00:31:50.680 Like, if you'd have been out there, you'd have been killed.

00:31:52.720 So all of this, because of, it's 30, so out of 100 prisoners on the wing, over 30, average

00:32:00.400 in 30, are Muslim.

00:32:02.240 Let me ask you just for a second about Muslim gangs in prison.

00:32:06.780 Yep.

00:32:08.900 Many of the people who go into prison convert to become Muslim for protection.

00:32:15.000 Is that a fact?

00:32:15.460 Yes.

00:32:15.720 So these 30% statistics, 30% of all these Muslim, that's not including anyone that's

00:32:19.940 converted while they're in there.

00:32:20.880 I spoke to a prisoner who was down the block who had been beaten, beaten so bad, boiling

00:32:27.140 water put over him for two hours, beaten by Muslims in the prison because he was having

00:32:34.900 bacon, because he had bacon on his lap.

00:32:37.600 And where was the prison staff during this?

00:32:40.300 Turning a blind eye?

00:32:41.560 On the many prisons, as I said, Hull was a prison that was run by the staff.

00:32:47.000 On Lee, in fact, a government investigation into On Lee.

00:32:53.260 This is not me saying it.

00:32:54.680 Anyone can go and read this government report.

00:32:56.780 It said it's violently unsafe.

00:32:58.700 It's dangerous.

00:33:00.220 When we look at the radicalization within prisons, we know that Muslim gangs have taken

00:33:04.740 over prisons.

00:33:05.800 Okay.

00:33:05.920 This is not me saying it again.

00:33:07.320 These are government reports.

00:33:08.480 It sounds like they enforce halal pretty well.

00:33:11.140 Well, that's it.

00:33:12.180 You'll stop ordering bacon.

00:33:14.280 Many prisons, to prevent this, have just took pork completely off the menus.

00:33:18.520 Most prisons now, you just don't get pork.

00:33:20.520 You're not allowed pork.

00:33:21.480 So On Lee still has pork as an option.

00:33:24.480 Yeah.

00:33:24.760 But obviously, a lot of people, you've got to be pretty brave to order it.

00:33:28.240 Is there a rival gang to the Muslim gang?

00:33:32.360 No, no, no.

00:33:32.780 No, because the Muslim gang is so large.

00:33:37.380 Anyone who converts to Islam, that's why in the British prison system, so many sex offenders

00:33:41.080 and things like that just convert, because no one will give them violent attacks or hassle

00:33:45.280 because they're part of the Muslim Brotherhood.

00:33:47.820 So if you're a...

00:33:49.240 If you're a Muslim, you're safe.

00:33:50.440 What you see, English lads, white English lads are all converting.

00:33:53.360 The most weak and vulnerable people in our society who have usually been wronged their

00:33:58.100 whole life, when you sit down and speak to most people in prison, if you went and stood

00:34:01.280 outside a prison, get a prisoner coming out and ask them their life story, you'll see

00:34:05.460 that they've been wronged.

00:34:06.620 They've been wronged in growing up.

00:34:07.960 They've been wronged by the system, whether they have been abused mentally or physically,

00:34:12.220 sexually.

00:34:14.080 And then you have these people who have so much anger, anyway, at society, at being let

00:34:19.920 down, many of them.

00:34:21.020 When you're here, when you're actually here, because I've done it, each time I've gone

00:34:23.580 to prison, I speak to people and see the opportunities they had were pretty low.

00:34:27.920 And then you then have an ideology that will take the anger and direct it, and you'll become

00:34:34.440 part...

00:34:35.320 These people haven't had a community, haven't had a belonging, haven't had a path.

00:34:39.560 Islam gives them all of that, and very dangerously.

00:34:42.800 And that's why...

00:34:44.020 And most of these people aren't converting.

00:34:45.600 I've had these arguments with many of them within the prison system.

00:34:48.760 They're converting to a gang, they're not converting to a religion.

00:34:52.760 It's amazing that the governor of that prison is such a fool to think that you wouldn't

00:34:57.600 be recognizing that you would be...

00:34:58.920 But basically, when I go through this, they wanted me to self-isolate.

00:35:03.000 Or they wanted you to get killed.

00:35:05.740 To get killed, yeah.

00:35:06.760 What else transpired was that, which I put this complaint in to the prison, was that the

00:35:11.580 imam...

00:35:12.480 So basically, I got taken to the block of the prison.

00:35:15.140 The block is a punishment area of a prison.

00:35:17.560 It's where I spent five months in 2012, in different prisons.

00:35:21.000 Now, the block is usually in the basement of a jail, usually, okay, underneath the prison.

00:35:25.040 Let me stop you there.

00:35:25.600 What are the other options?

00:35:27.820 You mentioned there's a hospital wing in Hull.

00:35:30.200 No, there's nothing in Hull.

00:35:31.260 So it's...

00:35:32.040 I asked that.

00:35:32.500 What is there besides a block?

00:35:34.760 Nothing.

00:35:35.220 Just normal wings.

00:35:36.520 Got it.

00:35:37.120 So...

00:35:37.400 Normal prison wings, where you come out of your cell at 8 in the morning again, where

00:35:41.640 you have a TV.

00:35:42.620 So you were...

00:35:43.140 Instead of the normal prison wing, you were put in the block, which is a heavier...

00:35:46.200 I was taken straight to the block, where anyone who...

00:35:48.760 If you stab someone in prison, or you attack someone, or you rob someone, or you're violent

00:35:52.580 to staff, you then get taken from your normal prison location, and you're put in the block.

00:35:56.860 So that's not even regular criminals.

00:35:59.160 Those are criminals who then re-offend in prison.

00:36:02.380 So you're not even supposed to be treated like a criminal prisoner in the first place.

00:36:05.960 And now you're being treated as a criminal who is offended again.

00:36:10.560 You'll see it this time.

00:36:11.860 So we're not...

00:36:12.380 So bearing in mind, again, the thing that was frustrating was...

00:36:16.040 I'd come from Hull, where I was fine.

00:36:18.380 And here I am now.

00:36:19.700 And I'm taken down to the block of the prison.

00:36:22.020 And as I'm walked into the block, the other prisoners who...

00:36:25.740 Because nothing happens down there.

00:36:27.020 You're locked up all day.

00:36:28.460 As soon as the noise comes, people are looking through the gaps in their doors, or the gaps

00:36:32.060 in their window, to see who's being brought down.

00:36:34.860 What's happened, yeah?

00:36:35.900 So I'm brought in, and instantly, instantly, it erupts.

00:36:40.560 With those...

00:36:41.320 And I made all...

00:36:42.360 The prison were aware of this, anyway.

00:36:43.780 So I'm then put in my prison cell with a blue mat.

00:36:47.460 And again, I'll say, okay, so you're putting...

00:36:50.880 You're making the decision, not me.

00:36:52.300 You're making the decision that you're putting me down the block, because you're saying I'm

00:36:56.900 not safe.

00:36:58.020 Now, what's the symbolism of the blue mat?

00:37:00.080 What do you mean by that?

00:37:00.840 So you don't have a bed.

00:37:02.140 Is it like...

00:37:02.940 In prison cells, you don't have a bed anyway, a normal bed.

00:37:06.100 You're in prison, yeah?

00:37:07.220 You have like a prison mattress.

00:37:10.420 But in the...

00:37:11.980 And you also have a TV, and you also have a wardrobe, and you also have a table, and you

00:37:15.720 also have a chair.

00:37:16.480 You have all these things, yeah?

00:37:18.160 Now, down the block, you have nothing.

00:37:20.520 You just have a blue mat.

00:37:21.700 Because the people who are down there, it's basically a smash-proof room.

00:37:25.200 It doesn't have a normal toilet.

00:37:27.100 It doesn't have...

00:37:28.400 And it has nothing that you can smash.

00:37:31.400 You can't break anything, yeah?

00:37:32.720 Just a blue mat.

00:37:33.860 And this is right away your first night in Onley.

00:37:36.880 You're being put into the block in a place where a violent murderer who killed someone

00:37:43.320 else in prison in the yard.

00:37:45.640 This is the worst place.

00:37:47.980 This is the punishment.

00:37:49.040 This is the...

00:37:49.540 But then even the prisoners that do that, they're still only allowed to spend 14 to 28 days maximum

00:37:54.900 down there.

00:37:55.700 And how long were you down there?

00:37:56.940 So in this case, a week, yeah?

00:38:00.020 So when I went in there, I went in, and then one prisoner in the cell next door to me spent

00:38:05.800 the entire night smashing and booting my wall through like he was going to come into my

00:38:09.960 cell.

00:38:10.220 I reminded him that he's in prison, and the prison walls probably dealt to deal with that.

00:38:15.260 And then...

00:38:16.100 So I spent the first night down there.

00:38:18.260 The threats are instant.

00:38:19.920 There was a prisoner called Khan who shouted straight away, there's a price up for me to get

00:38:24.200 me set.

00:38:24.960 They're all shouting amongst each other.

00:38:27.740 I'm then taking the next day, I get 30 minutes exercise so that people understand you have

00:38:33.300 prison windows here, prison windows here.

00:38:35.680 Here's the entrance.

00:38:36.660 So I'm taking out of my cell, and for 30 minutes, I'm putting this cage.

00:38:40.820 I'm putting a cage for 30 minutes where I walk around the cage on my own with all the

00:38:45.040 other prisoners who are in the block looking at the cage.

00:38:47.300 So hang on, so this is not in a gym or a yard, they've just made a little durable trap for

00:38:54.660 you.

00:38:54.840 There's a cage, yeah, there's a cage which is for where you walk around when you're down

00:39:00.480 the block.

00:39:01.120 So this is not a normal exercise facility, and...

00:39:06.400 No, no, no.

00:39:07.060 And you're on display for all the other prisoners, is that right?

00:39:10.580 Yeah, you're on display for the other prisoners who are down the block.

00:39:12.280 So this is inside the prison.

00:39:13.900 Yep.

00:39:15.620 It's basically ringed by...

00:39:17.440 It's ringed by a big, huge fence.

00:39:19.200 So it's like the Thunderdome in Mad Max.

00:39:21.820 Yeah, yeah.

00:39:22.060 You're in the centre of it.

00:39:23.180 And you just watch, so you...

00:39:24.260 And bearing in mind all of the shouting, all of the abuse, all the threats, which, look,

00:39:28.940 I'm used to, yeah?

00:39:30.300 I'm used to this.

00:39:31.200 You surely can't be used to a hundred men screaming they're going to murder you.

00:39:34.600 No.

00:39:35.020 Is that what...

00:39:35.680 Let me not assume.

00:39:36.720 What were they saying?

00:39:37.780 So your half hour...

00:39:39.640 It took them a few days to get my family's names.

00:39:43.140 So...

00:39:43.260 But they knew you right away.

00:39:44.360 They knew me straight away.

00:39:45.040 So the fool governor...

00:39:46.900 Oh, you're Stephen Yaxley.

00:39:48.540 So the next day I sat before the governor.

00:39:50.940 Yeah.

00:39:51.460 And I said to him, your staff will tell you how this place erupted last night when I come

00:39:57.800 in it.

00:39:58.380 Your whole prison's erupted now because I'm in it.

00:40:01.820 And they're all going to kill me.

00:40:03.460 You would think he would want to get you out of that prison.

00:40:05.680 He said, he said, I don't think...

00:40:08.340 Because I said, what is your intention?

00:40:10.540 Because one point I kept making, yeah, was about a TV.

00:40:14.920 Now, the World Cup was on, started.

00:40:18.040 England were playing.

00:40:20.540 My rights as a civil prisoner should be a lot more.

00:40:24.120 Visits, money, etc.

00:40:25.860 Instead, I'm being held in this condition where I've got no TV.

00:40:29.780 I've got nothing.

00:40:30.780 For 30 minutes a day, I'm put out and paraded around all of the other Muslim prisoners that

00:40:35.780 are in there.

00:40:35.960 So the 30 minutes isn't even a relief.

00:40:38.260 It's 30 minutes of abuse.

00:40:39.720 Well, on that first day, which again, I've sent you this form, I reacted and I say Islam

00:40:46.140 is a cancer and I got arrested for it.

00:40:48.960 Hang on a second.

00:40:51.140 You got arrested for saying, for criticizing the religion of Islam.

00:40:55.700 I said, Islam is a cancer, well, I actually said, Islam is a cancer and I am the cure.

00:41:01.100 But I said that, I've waited.

00:41:04.520 Is that a crime?

00:41:05.180 What were you arrested for?

00:41:06.220 No, I was arrested for religious and racial hatred.

00:41:08.960 And again, I've got this arrest for it.

00:41:10.900 But let me stop you there.

00:41:12.880 You said the very first night you're in there, your neighbor's trying to...

00:41:17.340 For the whole night, he's going to smash through.

00:41:18.880 He's going to kill me.

00:41:19.260 A guy named Khan is saying there's a price on your head.

00:41:21.660 Were they arrested?

00:41:22.500 No, no one was arrested.

00:41:23.160 When you go into the cage and for a half hour of being screamed at, tell me some of the

00:41:27.420 things they said to you.

00:41:28.700 Everything you can think of.

00:41:29.680 Well, I want to hear it.

00:41:30.800 Just, that I'll be killed, that I'll be murdered, that my family will be murdered.

00:41:36.020 Just comments about my wife, comments about my family, about my daughters.

00:41:40.360 Any arrests?

00:41:41.520 No, no, no.

00:41:42.700 Were they locked down?

00:41:44.280 Were they shut down?

00:41:45.220 No, when I got before the governor the next morning.

00:41:47.200 So when I was called in to see the governor, I said, one man spent six hours the whole night

00:41:54.180 last night.

00:41:55.460 And again, my stress with it was that I was fine in whole.

00:41:59.500 You've now purposely taken me to a prison where they can then use the threat against me

00:42:06.500 to put me on solitary confinement and surrounded by people who want to do me harm.

00:42:11.420 So, so your comment about Islam being a cancer, not the most polite thing to say, but I would

00:42:17.260 imagine it's a gentle reaction compared to the death threats.

00:42:20.720 Very calm reaction.

00:42:21.900 Wait, wait, wait.

00:42:22.740 So that's what it was?

00:42:23.820 It was a reaction to them screaming at you?

00:42:25.600 It was a reaction to just...

00:42:26.620 So who, who, who called the guard on you?

00:42:30.280 Was it...

00:42:30.840 A prison, no, so a prison governor heard.

00:42:33.120 So basically I get this, which you can include this arrest form on the video.

00:42:37.360 I'll give you the risk one.

00:42:38.080 It says, at this hours, and it gives the hours, I heard Yaxley-Lennon shout, Islam is a cancer

00:42:45.540 and I am the cure.

00:42:46.640 So the governor himself heard that?

00:42:48.280 One of the prison staff.

00:42:50.040 We call them all governor.

00:42:51.140 So the prison staff heard everything before that and was fine with that.

00:42:55.200 This really is the...

00:42:56.740 Which was the point.

00:42:57.600 So I thought, okay, so now if I don't want to face further arrests, I just have to remain

00:43:02.120 silent whilst all of this is going on every day.

00:43:05.720 What happened after...

00:43:06.980 I mean, you're in prison already.

00:43:08.040 Were they going to do have a...

00:43:09.300 They give you extra days and things like that.

00:43:11.060 So I asked, I asked the governor, so when I, when I went before the governor, I said,

00:43:14.500 I want to speak to a solicitor about this.

00:43:16.160 Yeah.

00:43:16.580 And I asked the governor, are there blasphemy laws in this prison?

00:43:21.420 Like, and what's going on with all the threats against me?

00:43:24.340 How come no one, are those people being disciplined?

00:43:27.160 And, um, I never heard another word after this.

00:43:31.200 Did he, did he answer those questions?

00:43:32.940 No.

00:43:33.220 He said, you've asked for your solicitor.

00:43:34.740 This will now be adjourned.

00:43:36.020 So it's like, it's like a little mini court hearing.

00:43:37.480 Yeah.

00:43:38.040 They adjourned it.

00:43:39.220 Um, I then spent a week where after the first day, it was a Muslim who was bringing me my

00:43:43.900 food.

00:43:44.160 So this is where it changes.

00:43:46.240 Yeah.

00:43:46.620 You talked about in, in Hull, you would go cafeteria and you'd say, give me some of that

00:43:51.000 and give me some of that.

00:43:51.780 And you could see the food was the same, all the other prisoners had.

00:43:55.460 And then tell me what it was like in online.

00:43:57.200 Well, I'm not allowed out myself.

00:43:58.600 So my, my food would be brought to me on a, on a tray with my name on top of it.

00:44:03.320 There's your food.

00:44:04.180 And it would be prepared by Muslim prisoners.

00:44:07.040 The, the, a prisoner from the normal location would come down to the block to do the food.

00:44:11.380 It was a black lad.

00:44:12.220 It was a Muslim.

00:44:13.200 Um, within a day, I was, how's your dinner, Tommy?

00:44:16.560 How was your dinner?

00:44:17.420 The shouts coming from the other prisoners.

00:44:18.880 The shouts.

00:44:19.340 Why would they say that?

00:44:20.280 Because they, because I, I, I know, especially in this prison as well, um, anything can get

00:44:26.640 smuggled in.

00:44:27.540 Most prisons have mobile phones.

00:44:29.300 Yeah.

00:44:30.080 Weapons.

00:44:30.640 I saw through my window crack, another prisoner being beaten with a bar like this big.

00:44:35.440 Yeah.

00:44:35.980 I said, so.

00:44:36.700 It sounds like a chaotic, wild place.

00:44:39.220 It doesn't sound like it's governed at all.

00:44:41.160 It's not governed.

00:44:42.700 Um, the prisoners government.

00:44:44.300 So.

00:44:44.620 The jungle.

00:44:45.420 So I, I watched as this was, uh, so I know that now that I'm in this prison system,

00:44:50.280 now that, now that I'm in it only and my food's being brought to my cell.

00:44:54.400 With your name on it.

00:44:55.240 And comments are being made already laughing about, uh, how was your dinner, Tommy?

00:44:58.840 Did you enjoy it?

00:44:59.540 Laughing.

00:45:00.300 So, so I didn't, I tend to say I'm not eating.

00:45:02.580 Yeah.

00:45:02.820 What did you, what did you think could be in it?

00:45:05.080 Well, if I was in, you can get anything smuggled into prison.

00:45:08.680 Anything you want.

00:45:09.520 Yeah.

00:45:09.640 Poison.

00:45:10.180 Well, you can.

00:45:10.680 Yeah.

00:45:10.880 You can get rat poison.

00:45:11.900 Easily.

00:45:12.300 It's only that big.

00:45:12.700 Now I'm not going to sit and keel over in my cell and give a victory away like that to

00:45:16.680 people who despise me and want to kill me for when I, when I, when again, I should have

00:45:22.020 50 pound a week to spend, but I've only got 12.

00:45:23.900 And so is that your own money or money?

00:45:25.920 No, no, your own money.

00:45:26.660 Yeah.

00:45:26.820 Money that, um, people send in.

00:45:29.600 So, so, so when you say you're, you should be allowed 50 pounds a week to spend, you're

00:45:34.960 only allowed 12.

00:45:36.060 That's even your own money.

00:45:37.280 And that would be to buy things from the prison, from the prison shopping list.

00:45:40.940 So I bought, again, I've said, I've got the receipts of what I bought each time.

00:45:45.000 I bought, um, five tins of tuna and I love you card to send to my wife.

00:45:51.520 Um, two packs of space Raiders and five pound phone credit.

00:45:56.980 So how much tuna, you say five tins of tuna, is that per week?

00:46:00.620 Yeah.

00:46:00.920 So like one tin a day.

00:46:02.260 One tin a day.

00:46:03.460 Now that, that's not a lot of energy.

00:46:05.660 We, that's not a lot of vitamins.

00:46:07.220 Did, did you have anything else?

00:46:09.140 No.

00:46:09.660 Water?

00:46:10.200 Fruit.

00:46:10.860 Fruit.

00:46:11.100 Fruit.

00:46:11.880 Fruit and water.

00:46:12.480 So for the first week, I didn't eat a single thing.

00:46:14.960 And the prison were aware I didn't eat a single thing because I, because I had no tuna because

00:46:18.440 to get your forms, you have to, to get your forms, to get your canteen, you're a week behind.

00:46:24.540 So I filled out a form when I got there.

00:46:26.500 And then a week later, my tins of tuna would come.

00:46:28.900 So for the first week, I ate not a single thing.

00:46:31.920 Did you have water?

00:46:32.960 I'd have water, yeah.

00:46:33.820 Did you have any fruit?

00:46:35.600 No.

00:46:36.580 Because you can buy fruit on your canteen as well.

00:46:38.960 And then you get fruit.

00:46:40.560 So you, basically, you fill out your week's food and then you get it the next week.

00:46:45.080 So even the meals.

00:46:47.860 Did, did the prison say anything?

00:46:50.500 I mean, if you were on a hunger strike or if you were, your health was in jeopardy.

00:46:54.200 I mean, not eating for a day or so, but not eating for a week.

00:46:57.460 They took me after, after one week.

00:46:59.380 So one week I haven't eaten.

00:47:00.680 The reason I haven't eaten because I can't eat anyway.

00:47:02.240 Anyway, so they've took me to see the governor.

00:47:04.960 And every day I was putting in complaints saying, I believe, which people have read and they've

00:47:08.940 been mocked.

00:47:09.640 I believe I'm being mentally tortured.

00:47:11.300 And the reason I'm saying that is because I know I should not be behind my door 23 and

00:47:16.440 half hours a day.

00:47:17.340 I know I should be getting a visit every day.

00:47:19.620 I know I should have £50 to spend.

00:47:21.780 I know I should be able to eat.

00:47:23.300 And I know I should not have been moved from a safe environment.

00:47:26.240 Again, journalists should be asking the question.

00:47:28.500 People should be asking.

00:47:29.440 The prison system should have to answer.

00:47:31.420 The government should have to answer.

00:47:32.460 Why was I moved from no problems and no risk into the biggest Muslim population of the country?

00:47:39.780 Why was I then put into a position where I was paraded for 30 minutes a day amongst them?

00:47:44.660 Why would I be?

00:47:45.800 I spent nonstop threats.

00:47:47.860 Now, after one week, I had no TV.

00:47:50.660 So obviously, I'm just sitting in a cell listening to all this.

00:47:53.940 I can't comment because I've been arrested in the first week for commenting.

00:47:57.160 So I put in these complaints saying that this is this is and again, you have to understand that

00:48:03.780 my main concern here is I know I've got six and a half months to do and I know what I was like

00:48:11.320 last time.

00:48:12.180 So I know that if they're going to hold me in this room like this for the next six months,

00:48:17.060 I'm not going to come out in a good place.

00:48:19.220 And I was really worried about that because interacting with my kids and family and everything

00:48:25.400 was affected when I spent the last solitary confinement.

00:48:28.440 So all of these things were worrying to me.

00:48:30.920 I also knew that my appeal date, obviously, they'd moved me.

00:48:35.640 So I hadn't had my meeting with my lawyer.

00:48:37.600 So how long was it before you even met your lawyers?

00:48:40.980 So once they got me into H&B Only, my lawyers were trying to make an appointment.

00:48:47.260 It was at least another week.

00:48:49.360 So the appointment was going to be Friday.

00:48:51.320 So it was another week before I got to see my lawyer.

00:48:53.740 That's a month.

00:48:54.320 You know, at least a month, at least.

00:48:57.080 Now, I understood because I was there at your court of appeal hearing.

00:49:01.100 Your lawyers said that when they tried to meet you, the meetings were either cancelled

00:49:05.720 or shrunk to less than an hour.

00:49:08.320 Is that true?

00:49:08.740 So they struggled to get, they were trying to get the meeting, which they weren't being

00:49:12.080 responded to.

00:49:13.020 And then they finally got the meeting.

00:49:14.760 Now, when they had the meeting, it was a two hour meeting to see my lawyer.

00:49:17.820 This is the first chance I've got to go through now, to go through the case.

00:49:22.200 Yeah.

00:49:22.940 And I'm sitting there.

00:49:25.060 My meeting's meant to start at two o'clock, my legal meeting.

00:49:28.160 My lawyers got to court, got to the prison at one o'clock.

00:49:31.200 So they got there an hour early.

00:49:32.880 It's meant to start at two o'clock.

00:49:33.920 I got brought in at quarter past three.

00:49:37.160 And this is all, this is, like you heard my QC in court.

00:49:40.000 My QC said he's never experienced this.

00:49:41.960 What is going on?

00:49:42.720 So what excuse was given?

00:49:45.120 They don't have to give an excuse.

00:49:46.040 The same way when my, so when I was held for those first seven days without a TV down the

00:49:52.540 block, my lawyers put in a letter saying, just to give you prior notice, we're putting

00:49:56.860 in for a judicial review.

00:49:57.840 We're going to take you to court.

00:49:59.840 They have 28 days to respond to any letters.

00:50:02.480 So they don't have to even reply for 28 days.

00:50:05.480 So, and the TV thing I saw, the mainstream media was mocking that.

00:50:10.720 It's not because you want to watch sports necessarily.

00:50:15.200 It's because you're in a, it's, you're in a room with sensory deprivation.

00:50:20.780 Is that the reason you need a TV?

00:50:22.100 That's my guess.

00:50:23.140 My reason A was the World Cup was on.

00:50:26.780 Yeah.

00:50:27.200 So you do like the sports.

00:50:28.660 I love, I'd usually been at the World Cup.

00:50:31.440 My also other reason was I'd just spent, I'd had a TV for the first number of weeks in

00:50:37.440 Hull.

00:50:37.700 Um, my, my main reason is that, look, lock yourself in a room with nothing at all.

00:50:44.160 Yeah.

00:50:44.700 Nothing at all.

00:50:46.200 Nothing.

00:50:46.920 Yeah.

00:50:48.160 Where you only come out of that room to walk around a cage on your own for 30 minutes a

00:50:51.520 day.

00:50:51.940 Do that for a week.

00:50:53.080 Yeah.

00:50:53.720 Right.

00:50:54.720 A day goes like a week.

00:50:56.480 You have no interactional knowledge of what's going on really in the world.

00:51:00.140 You, um, you, you're not speaking to anyone.

00:51:02.740 You've got no one to talk to.

00:51:03.940 It would drive you mad.

00:51:05.020 So, yeah, so, so I, I know that six months of this.

00:51:08.680 So in my, in my complaints, I'm saying, look, give me a TV, at least give me, and, and, and

00:51:13.840 here's the other, and 750 prisoners are in only prison and every one, the other one of

00:51:18.200 them has got a TV.

00:51:19.240 Including the murderers.

00:51:20.860 Unless, unless you're down the block.

00:51:22.420 Yeah.

00:51:22.620 When you're down the block for punishment for 14 days, you don't have a TV.

00:51:24.920 So what I kept saying is you're, you're punishing me now, which you are, because you can't keep

00:51:29.640 me safe.

00:51:30.580 Now, I didn't bring myself to only, you brought me here.

00:51:33.140 You must've done a risk assessment before you brought me here.

00:51:36.180 You must've.

00:51:36.880 So, and then I, so.

00:51:38.540 Have you ever been given access to your prison files?

00:51:41.060 No.

00:51:41.760 We're trying to get them.

00:51:42.580 No, we're still waiting.

00:51:43.320 We're trying to get my blood samples to show how malnourished I was.

00:51:46.100 Let me ask you about that.

00:51:47.060 So you didn't need a bite for a week.

00:51:50.180 I didn't need a bite for a week.

00:51:51.120 And then the, and then the prison governor, the number one governor asked to see me.

00:51:54.100 And when I saw him, he asked if we move you cell.

00:51:58.560 Yeah.

00:51:59.480 So from the block to a normal cell.

00:52:01.740 Now in a normal cell, they're just better cells.

00:52:04.940 They're bigger.

00:52:05.680 You have a window that opens this much instead of not all.

00:52:08.900 Yeah.

00:52:09.240 In the block, you don't, you're wearing the window doesn't open.

00:52:11.220 Yeah.

00:52:11.580 So you have a window that opens this much.

00:52:13.780 Um, you have a bigger cell.

00:52:16.360 You have a more comfortable bed.

00:52:17.800 You have a desk.

00:52:18.880 Um, things like that.

00:52:21.360 So if we move you onto the wing, the normal wing, um, will you eat?

00:52:26.840 Yeah.

00:52:27.200 And then he said, you need to sign this disclaimer.

00:52:29.660 And he gave me a disclaimer, which said I would be self-isolating.

00:52:33.020 So I, I then again said.

00:52:34.780 So he's extorting you for food.

00:52:36.540 You're seven days starving.

00:52:38.100 He says, I'll give you food if you sign away.

00:52:40.420 So then I said, I've told you already.

00:52:43.400 I'm not self-isolating.

00:52:45.040 Yeah.

00:52:45.420 He then said, well, you'll stay down here.

00:52:48.060 I said, well, I'll stay down here then.

00:52:49.780 I'll stay down here then.

00:52:50.640 But obviously you're aware, until I get my canteen, I can't eat anyway.

00:52:54.760 Yeah.

00:52:54.800 Um, at which point then he changed the disclaimer and he rewrote it where it basically said,

00:53:00.640 we will move you to another cell, but you will not be able to integrate with any other

00:53:05.440 prisoners due to the stability of the prison.

00:53:07.620 You will not be allowed to work.

00:53:09.120 Now, when we, this is where it gets quite key.

00:53:12.100 Well, when we're on about 12 pound a week, what I can spend to have enough to eat.

00:53:16.440 If you can work in prison, like everyone works because everyone gets a job, you can spend

00:53:21.480 another 12 pound a week, right?

00:53:23.020 And then you can get enhanced where you have good behavior and the prisoners see you behave

00:53:28.100 well.

00:53:28.500 You then become enhanced where you can spend another 12 pound a week.

00:53:31.620 So, but bearing in mind, I'm a civil prisoner, undisputable.

00:53:36.400 No one can say I'm not civil because the crime is civil.

00:53:39.460 I should have 50 pound a week.

00:53:40.860 I should be able to buy food.

00:53:42.500 I wasn't.

00:53:43.340 I was then, once I was moved to the block, once I was moved from the block, people were

00:53:47.900 saying, oh, he, you wasn't on solitary confinement.

00:53:51.040 I was then moved to another cell where I was not allowed out of that cell once.

00:53:55.320 Yeah.

00:53:55.860 That the condition that I had to sign if I wanted to be moved was that they were forcefully

00:54:00.860 isolating me, which I wanted it to say, because I wanted it to, I'm not isolating myself.

00:54:04.780 And that was a key point for me.

00:54:06.720 I'm not isolating myself.

00:54:08.060 You put me on that wing, I'm coming out.

00:54:09.640 Yeah.

00:54:10.240 And whatever happens, happens.

00:54:11.380 And if I get killed, I get killed because you're doing that.

00:54:14.160 And I'm not going to, and I don't know if it's my own, like part of my own, I'd see

00:54:20.020 anything else as being a coward.

00:54:22.300 Yeah.

00:54:22.880 And, but I know I'm going to get killed at the same time.

00:54:25.540 So I'm not going to ask for separation.

00:54:28.820 And I'm put, they've then put me there.

00:54:31.760 They've been isolating.

00:54:32.420 So, and in the form that I had to sign to get moved from the block, it said, which

00:54:36.600 again, this is public.

00:54:37.940 It said that the only time I'll be allowed out of my cell is when the rest of the prison

00:54:41.380 is locked for lunch.

00:54:43.100 So between half one and half two, I'll be taken from my cell, escorted down to the block,

00:54:49.500 back to the block.

00:54:50.360 Back to the block.

00:54:51.080 Where I have a shower and I walk around the cage again.

00:54:54.600 Now, these are only little things, yeah?

00:54:59.040 But not little things.

00:55:01.640 My wife and my, my wife's at work and my children are at school between half one and half two.

00:55:06.560 So essentially, I can't speak too much of kids now.

00:55:09.960 Now, what's frustrating is all around the prison, all you ever hear, see and read about

00:55:14.740 is mental health, A, and keeping prisoners in contact with their family, which is super

00:55:20.240 important if you don't want them to re-offend.

00:55:21.960 All of these guidelines and things they try to do.

00:55:24.080 So there's like posters.

00:55:25.200 Posters and whole, whole massive, like brochures.

00:55:27.760 Whole massive campaigns, yeah.

00:55:29.840 Psychologists.

00:55:30.340 Yeah, whole, whole campaigns.

00:55:31.640 Did you see any psychologists?

00:55:32.860 The first day I got in there was, the mental health were there with the governor, where

00:55:36.820 I expressed to them.

00:55:37.780 Did they say a word?

00:55:38.840 No, I said to them, everything I think you're doing and the reason I think you're doing it,

00:55:43.420 what I kept asking, why have you taken me here?

00:55:45.280 You're going to now hold me on solitary for six months.

00:55:47.720 I know what you're doing, yeah?

00:55:48.800 They then told me you won't be here in a week.

00:55:50.600 Specifically said, you will not be here in a week.

00:55:52.160 Who said that?

00:55:52.760 The governor.

00:55:53.880 He said, you will not be in Onley for a week?

00:55:55.420 You won't be in Onley in a week's time.

00:55:57.140 So then I think, okay, I'm getting moved.

00:55:59.120 I never got moved.

00:55:59.800 Did these so-called mental health advisors?

00:56:03.140 They come and saw me the day before I went home.

00:56:05.160 Ha!

00:56:06.300 And what did they say there?

00:56:07.820 I told them again, I need to be on my cell.

00:56:13.140 And then, so I wrote complaints after complaints after complaints.

00:56:17.300 One of the complaints I said is that for an hour a day, just let me on the field.

00:56:21.620 Let me run around the field.

00:56:23.400 And again, I felt like everything was dangling a carrot because then they replied to the

00:56:27.460 complaint, which I've got, saying we are going to do that, basically, yeah?

00:56:30.920 They didn't do it.

00:56:31.680 They never done.

00:56:32.380 Now, so not once did I come out of my cell.

00:56:34.820 Once I got put into the wing location, this was obviously, again, my cell location, which

00:56:41.440 I think is quite important.

00:56:43.320 Anyone can check this.

00:56:44.600 I was in cell H-wing, which is induction wing, cell nine.

00:56:48.300 I can show you an overhead view of the prism because I've done it on Google Maps to show.

00:56:51.560 So, and then directly opposite my window was the industrial unit, which I've said was

00:56:57.320 a mosque, used as a mosque.

00:56:58.820 It is used as a mosque.

00:56:59.780 On a Friday, it's a mosque.

00:57:00.620 On a Sunday, it's a church.

00:57:02.060 Now, every, so every prisoner in that prison who's Muslim will walk past my window to go

00:57:07.760 in there to pray.

00:57:09.300 Now, this is when you're in the block or when you're in the wing?

00:57:11.200 No, when I got moved onto the wing.

00:57:12.300 Now, the thing that they made me sign clearly stated that if there were problems when I'm on

00:57:18.380 the wing, they would reassess my security situation and basically put me back down the block,

00:57:24.200 yeah, where in the block, there's no electricity.

00:57:26.380 So, the reason they're saying we're not giving you a TV, even though there is electricity,

00:57:29.580 there is a TV point.

00:57:30.460 They're saying the electricity is not working down there, yeah, for TVs.

00:57:33.180 That's what they told me.

00:57:34.240 So, in my mind, I'm going to be put back down the block.

00:57:37.500 So, when I got put on the wing, I had Muslims prisoners, Muslims at my cell door constantly.

00:57:43.840 Some of them, there was a lad from Brixton, a lovely lad, who wasn't, in fact, was saying

00:57:49.340 to the others, just leave him alone, yeah.

00:57:51.360 But the majority of the time, it was just frets after frets after frets.

00:57:55.060 And my window...

00:57:55.960 Did anyone stop them ever from coming to your door to issue things?

00:57:59.620 No.

00:58:00.080 Never?

00:58:00.600 No, one of them was moved.

00:58:02.280 So, one of them in the cell opposite me was moved.

00:58:05.260 Now, this was a prisoner who come to my cell and told me that he had a message for me

00:58:08.640 from Saiful Islam.

00:58:10.040 And who's Saiful Islam?

00:58:10.980 Saiful Islam means Sword of Islam.

00:58:13.660 That's his name.

00:58:14.720 He's in jail for ISIS terrorism.

00:58:17.360 He's the leader of a terrorist group in Britain called Amar Jardin.

00:58:21.420 He was the second in command of that group.

00:58:23.420 He's from my hometown of Lewin.

00:58:25.040 He's physically had run-ins with me in my hometown of Lewin.

00:58:27.980 He's, like, the leader of the radical Muslims in Britain.

00:58:31.180 And he was passing a message on to me of things that were going to happen to my family.

00:58:36.260 Yeah?

00:58:36.760 Now...

00:58:37.200 Can you say any of them here?

00:58:38.980 Or would it put your family at risk?

00:58:40.580 Just say it.

00:58:41.120 He knew things.

00:58:42.420 He knew things about my family.

00:58:43.900 Like location or names or ages?

00:58:46.160 He knew names.

00:58:46.880 He knew all the names of my children, of my family.

00:58:50.860 And I then...

00:58:51.800 So, the prison...

00:58:52.820 And he told me he'd come from speaking from Saiful Islam.

00:58:55.740 Now, when I saw the female member of staff, there was one female member of staff.

00:58:59.820 I said to her, look, I'm a bit concerned now.

00:59:02.920 You know, this isn't normal.

00:59:03.720 This isn't...

00:59:04.500 Because I was getting spat through my window, shit come through my window.

00:59:06.880 In the end, what I did on my window was I just shut my windows, yeah?

00:59:10.100 After the first couple of days.

00:59:11.360 Okay.

00:59:11.560 So, when you say spat and human excrement...

00:59:14.820 Yep.

00:59:15.180 That's because you were on the outside.

00:59:17.740 So, my cell...

00:59:18.600 My cell...

00:59:19.280 My bed's here.

00:59:20.940 My bed's here.

00:59:22.000 And the window's here.

00:59:23.560 The window...

00:59:24.180 The bed isn't...

00:59:24.740 You can't move your bed.

00:59:25.800 That's the way it is.

00:59:26.760 And the window's here.

00:59:27.500 Now, both the windows...

00:59:28.260 They only open this much.

00:59:29.400 Yeah.

00:59:29.540 But you know the boiling...

00:59:30.680 Well, the boiling summer we had in Britain, I had my windows open.

00:59:34.180 And within a few days, it was clear that I couldn't have my windows open because of

00:59:37.840 the shit and spit and just people at my window.

00:59:41.240 Now, did you have to be on the ground floor across from the mosque?

00:59:44.960 There's three floors.

00:59:45.620 I could have been on any floor.

00:59:46.680 Did you bring this to the attention of staff?

00:59:50.220 No, I didn't, no.

00:59:51.340 No, I did...

00:59:51.880 The staff were very aware of the threats and the things coming out the window.

00:59:54.780 But I didn't ask for a move because I didn't want to be put down the block.

00:59:58.980 Ah, I see.

00:59:59.780 It said clearly at the bottom of my thing.

01:00:01.200 If there's issues with you on the wing, you'll be put...

01:00:04.140 It said it clearly, which, again, people can read.

01:00:06.460 Now...

01:00:06.780 Was anyone ever charged for throwing things through your window?

01:00:10.160 No.

01:00:10.600 No, of course not.

01:00:11.720 But then this prisoner who gave me the warning, the prison officer went and checked and he

01:00:15.820 had just come from a maximum security prison where this prisoner, where Safe Illislam

01:00:21.340 was being held.

01:00:21.800 So it was a credible message.

01:00:23.480 It was legitimate, yeah.

01:00:24.640 And what happened to him?

01:00:25.540 They moved him.

01:00:26.380 They moved him.

01:00:26.920 So that's...

01:00:27.560 Did they move him down the block?

01:00:28.460 No, no, no.

01:00:29.040 No.

01:00:29.340 So you can be a messenger with a death threat to someone's family from a terrorist and your

01:00:35.140 punishment is you move to another cell with a TV in it.

01:00:38.700 And then...

01:00:39.700 And if you complain about it, you're down in the block.

01:00:41.380 Yeah.

01:00:42.060 And then...

01:00:43.460 So when I said...

01:00:46.180 So I'm in complete isolation anyway, yeah?

01:00:49.020 I'm taking out for 30 minutes a day where I'm all down.

01:00:50.860 So I wrote my wife a letter in this...

01:00:54.160 In the first week I was in H&P only.

01:00:57.120 And it was an...

01:00:58.100 It wasn't a letter to go public.

01:00:59.920 It was a letter for me to detail...

01:01:02.100 Detail a lot of things I needed to say to her.

01:01:05.140 Because to be honest, in that first week, I generally...

01:01:08.260 In that first week, I didn't think I'd make it out of there.

01:01:10.820 And in fact, I thought I know what their intentions are now.

01:01:13.360 I know what's gone on in my previous sentences.

01:01:16.500 So I wrote her a letter basically apologising to my wife.

01:01:22.820 And it was me apologising, not for anything I've done, but for the situation that she finds herself in,

01:01:30.720 that we find ourselves in.

01:01:32.640 And then I also...

01:01:34.440 And to explain it, it was important for me...

01:01:39.400 Same if I got killed in that prison sentence.

01:01:40.940 There was a lot of things that I hadn't said that I needed to say.

01:01:44.880 Especially with regards to...

01:01:46.560 Just with regards to my wife.

01:01:48.480 And then to my children.

01:01:50.100 So I wrote three individual letters to my children.

01:01:52.920 Where I wanted to say to them,

01:01:54.480 Joan, the thing that was killing me most was that...

01:01:56.820 Say I got killed and they grew up without a dad.

01:02:00.240 Then they'd be angry at me for thinking that I didn't care about them.

01:02:06.660 Yeah.

01:02:08.840 I've done this last time, man.

01:02:10.560 And I didn't care about them as to why I do what I do.

01:02:14.460 And so I'm individually in it.

01:02:16.560 And I broke my heart to write it.

01:02:19.220 And then they didn't send it.

01:02:20.720 They held back the letter.

01:02:22.060 Why did they do that?

01:02:22.920 How do you know that?

01:02:23.720 Because they give me a form.

01:02:24.900 And they give me a form saying the letter's not being sent because they think it's going to end up online.

01:02:29.300 What difference does that make?

01:02:30.540 It's your letter.

01:02:31.060 They think it's going to end up online.

01:02:32.060 And that may seem like a little thing, but it knocks you up.

01:02:38.700 It's like a last will and testament.

01:02:41.100 Can you tell me what you said to your wife?

01:02:43.920 Is it too personal?

01:02:44.920 To my wife, it was apologies.

01:02:47.160 Look, there's been times over the last years where I haven't been living with my wife,

01:02:51.960 where I've been living at my mum's and things like that,

01:02:53.620 where I've made mistakes even across my marriage.

01:02:56.720 And then there was apologies about everything that goes on with me.

01:03:05.200 I may be serving a prison sentence.

01:03:07.100 She's serving a sentence on the out.

01:03:09.180 And then also, the letter I wrote was prior to the police going to see my wife.

01:03:14.440 But it was then just things to tell my children about their characters.

01:03:21.800 Did you tell these things to your wife after you got out?

01:03:24.660 Did you say them to her?

01:03:25.820 Yeah.

01:03:26.720 Yeah.

01:03:27.340 So it's not.

01:03:30.500 And even with my kids, it would be that it would be trying to tell your wife

01:03:34.940 or you're trying to tell your wife, which I've tried to tell many times,

01:03:37.620 this isn't about my kids.

01:03:40.200 This isn't about our kids.

01:03:42.140 This battle is about every single child and the next generation of children across this country,

01:03:48.040 even the people who hate me, even the people who despise me, even the politicians.

01:03:51.840 It's about their kids and their kids.

01:03:53.400 And it's about everyone's kids.

01:03:55.160 This goes beyond the need of my children.

01:03:58.580 The need of my children.

01:03:59.440 Yeah, I should shut my mouth and just be a dad.

01:04:01.560 But it's far bigger than that.

01:04:03.080 And essentially, it's like, if we remain silent, if we ignore and we don't stand up to the blatant wrongs that we can see,

01:04:14.020 to the blatant dangers we see our country in and our families in and our communities in,

01:04:18.480 if we don't, then essentially, if there's going to be a battle and someone's going to have to put themselves up,

01:04:24.380 then let it be me, not my son.

01:04:26.420 So I could, and trying to explain that to your wife, who's not politically minded or doesn't really,

01:04:33.220 all she cares about is being a mother to the kids and our kids.

01:04:36.120 She doesn't think deeply about, she doesn't view the country.

01:04:39.900 She doesn't, do you know what I mean?

01:04:42.160 It's like, so it was to put, it was a 10 page of me, not just breaking my heart.

01:04:47.520 And I actually said in the letter, this isn't a suicide note.

01:04:50.200 I know it reads like it because I generally at that time, I'm thinking, why have they moved me to this prison?

01:04:57.740 They're going to let them have a shot.

01:04:59.520 Yeah.

01:04:59.720 I found out that the imam, the prisoner who works down the block, when I spoke to him, he said,

01:05:06.660 when I was going out in the exercise yard, he said, I knew three days before you got here, he was coming here.

01:05:11.940 I said, how do you know that?

01:05:12.760 He said, the imam was telling everyone.

01:05:14.700 So then I'm thinking, so the Muslims in the prison have had an opportunity to prepare themselves.

01:05:18.820 When I previously got violently beaten in prison, I was locked in a room.

01:05:22.760 I knew that those Muslim lads didn't know I was going to be locked in that room.

01:05:26.100 Yeah.

01:05:26.540 Because I could tell by their faces.

01:05:28.500 Now, if you give someone an opportunity, then they're getting knives, then they're getting blades.

01:05:32.120 They're going to be ready for me when they get that one opportunity to touch, to have a swipe at me.

01:05:36.460 They're going to get it.

01:05:37.880 So I'm weighing all that up and I'm thinking of why I've been moved from one prison to another.

01:05:43.000 So I'm generally, I don't think I'm coming out of there.

01:05:45.740 And there's a lot that I, there's a lot that I wanted to say, or I want to say, not just

01:05:50.680 to my wife, but to my children.

01:05:51.740 And then when they stopped the letter, it would end up online.

01:05:57.280 What's that go?

01:05:58.520 What law does that go?

01:05:59.540 Because my previous, and then my lawyers have contacted the prison then, saying, give us

01:06:03.640 a copy of the letter, which they didn't again.

01:06:06.480 And then, and then, so then, yeah.

01:06:08.520 So when you were in HMP Hull, when you were in the hospital wing in the safer prison, you

01:06:13.040 did write a letter.

01:06:13.980 I did, yeah.

01:06:15.420 And I know it got through because I saw it posted online.

01:06:18.360 I wrote pretty, yeah.

01:06:19.000 So I wrote, I wrote a letter.

01:06:20.040 I didn't say, so I wrote letters to my wife from HMP Hull as well.

01:06:23.440 I wrote her a brief letter, but it wasn't a letter because I thought, I looked around

01:06:26.880 and thought, I'm all right here.

01:06:28.600 When I was in Honourley in that first week, I thought, I'm not all right here.

01:06:32.220 So they didn't stop your letter at Hull.

01:06:34.120 No.

01:06:35.240 The one that was online and was incredibly touching.

01:06:37.700 I want to remind you of something you said.

01:06:39.760 I mean, you had a lot of sense of humor in that letter.

01:06:41.820 You talked about how Donald Trump Jr. mentioned your case and you joked that was worth the

01:06:47.960 whole thing.

01:06:48.880 But he also wrote about your son.

01:06:53.260 And I've had the pleasure of meeting him.

01:06:54.580 He's just like you, Tom.

01:06:55.600 Yeah.

01:06:55.720 And how he couldn't understand what was going on and how he wanted to go to, to do something

01:07:02.240 bad so he could be put in prison to be with his dad.

01:07:06.000 And I heard from your wife that he slept with an old shirt of yours that hadn't been laundered

01:07:11.940 just so he could smell his dad until the scent was gone after weeks.

01:07:16.900 What did you say to your kids in the letters?

01:07:21.560 So the letters were just to talk about them.

01:07:27.640 Just to talk about, to also, I wouldn't want them to try as children.

01:07:34.600 And so they, yeah, I can't, just for them to understand that everything I do, I do it because

01:07:48.020 what, yeah.

01:07:48.640 Do they understand what you're doing?

01:07:50.080 Do they know about these subjects?

01:07:51.500 Have you kept them shielded from these policies?

01:07:54.500 I've kept them shielded from knowing, knowing the severity of the risks, of the threats.

01:08:04.000 For example, when I was in, when I was in Wondley, free, my door opens.

01:08:10.080 And again, this is, my door opens at about nine o'clock at night.

01:08:13.600 Where's your wife?

01:08:16.100 How am I meant to know where my wife, the only time I can do that, free members of prison

01:08:20.540 staff.

01:08:20.820 Now, bearing in mind, the only time I'm allowed out of my cell, they've specifically made it

01:08:26.340 so it's not when I can ring my wife and children.

01:08:28.380 So where's my wife?

01:08:29.100 And I said, I don't know.

01:08:30.300 They said, the police are trying to find your wife.

01:08:32.280 I said, okay.

01:08:33.160 And I said, why?

01:08:35.020 And they said, there's intel that she's going to be attacked with acid.

01:08:40.640 Now, and then they shut my door, basically.

01:08:42.560 That's basically it.

01:08:44.020 And then they said, do you know where she is?

01:08:46.440 And then they shut my door.

01:08:47.480 So then, to say I didn't sleep a wink, man, and I'm waiting and waiting.

01:08:52.860 That's not a genuine question.

01:08:54.420 That's a taunt.

01:08:55.380 Yeah.

01:08:55.620 The sickening thing is, is like, so basically my wife, the police knock on my wife's door

01:09:01.660 and they give her a little leaflet of what to do when you're attacked with acid.

01:09:05.320 Oh my God.

01:09:06.080 You've got to see the leaflet.

01:09:07.160 It's so pathetic.

01:09:08.340 Which police force was that?

01:09:09.320 Bedfordshire police.

01:09:10.520 And then two days later, three days later, they go to my mum's and they do exactly the

01:09:15.980 same.

01:09:16.240 What to do when you're attacked with acid?

01:09:18.600 Is call the police on the list at all?

01:09:20.580 No.

01:09:20.860 One of the things is that you cannot get weapons.

01:09:24.220 You cannot have a weapon to defend yourself.

01:09:26.220 So basically you cannot break the law.

01:09:27.580 One of the thing, guidelines is do not break the law.

01:09:30.280 So then basically I'm sat in prison thinking, my wife's going to get attacked or my mum's

01:09:38.600 going to get attacked because I went to my mum's two days later.

01:09:40.780 And then I have the mental pull of, is this even real?

01:09:45.160 Because, or is this to mess with me?

01:09:47.320 Is this to psychologically destroy me whilst holding me on solitary confinement, whilst

01:09:51.940 putting me in these positions?

01:09:53.560 And then the, so the first thing, the opportunity I then get to use the phone when I do get hold

01:09:57.960 of my family, you can imagine my, my wife's situation of how she's feeling.

01:10:02.260 You can imagine the stress and what, and worry about all of that.

01:10:06.920 And it's just like, and then, and then the whole time I'm, I'm reminding myself that I'm

01:10:11.480 in, I'm in here for standing outside a courtroom and, and telling people the names of men who,

01:10:18.960 again, I can't comment yet legally on what happened at that trial, but of men who are

01:10:25.500 alleged to have raped up to a hundred young children. And, and I'm a civil prisoner and

01:10:30.360 I shouldn't be in it. I shouldn't be held in these conditions. I'm not, I can't eat.

01:10:34.700 I then put in forms, I put in a complaint saying, look, if you make me enhanced, yeah, I get an

01:10:40.560 extra 12 pound a week. Then I can buy more food. Yeah.

01:10:43.500 And they replied, I've got the copy of their response. They replied saying, we have to see

01:10:48.540 your good behaviour to make you, to make you enhanced. But because you're not out of your cell,

01:10:53.760 we can't see you behaving well. And it's like, are you for real?

01:10:58.380 You know, I know there's a phenomenon here in the UK called cage prisoners. It's all these

01:11:02.140 former Al Qaeda prisoners from Guantanamo Bay.

01:11:04.800 Oh, they have people queuing up to defend them. This is the other thing that was so disheartened

01:11:08.360 for me. I know what's going on. I know it's a kangaroo court. I know I've been illegally

01:11:12.400 imprisoned. I know everything that has gone wrong. I now know that my rights are being trampled

01:11:17.620 over. My human rights, my, my, we talk about contempt of court. I mean, I'm in court, I would,

01:11:22.540 I'm supposedly in prison for contempt of court. We're sitting outside Westminster. It's them

01:11:29.560 who have the show, a guilty of contempt. They're guilty of contempt for civil rights, guilty

01:11:33.460 of contempt for justice, guilty of contempt for free speech, guilty of contempt for democracy

01:11:38.200 and the most recent things. And I'm sitting in prison, knowing all of this is happening,

01:11:42.900 knowing all of the, every single day, the threats, the threats, the threats, the constant,

01:11:47.940 prison, which, which isn't a situation that it had to be. All they had to do, which my

01:11:52.240 solicitors wrote to them. As soon as they moved me to Honourley, my solicitors wrote and said,

01:11:55.900 move him back to Hull. He was fine.

01:11:58.560 Do you know what they said? Which I've got again in writing, is that for them to move me

01:12:03.500 to a prison that matches my racial prejudice, my racial prejudice, yeah, would be immoral and

01:12:11.540 illegal. Right? So, so, so to put me in a prison, which has the most, and bearing in mind that when

01:12:17.400 I put my complaint in, one of my complaints said that 7% of the whole was Muslim, 30% of Honourley

01:12:23.200 is, I feel like you've purposely endangered me. Their response was, if you speak negatively

01:12:28.640 about our Muslim population again, yeah, you'll be on the IEP system, which is again, arrest.

01:12:33.660 Yeah. Now, they're the ones, HMP Honourley and their staff and their governor are the ones that

01:12:41.980 said I wasn't safe. Not me. Yeah. They're the ones that put me down the block and held me on

01:12:45.900 solitary confinement because they said that I'd be violently attacked. Not me. I didn't, it's not,

01:12:51.140 it's not what I've done. I didn't isolate myself. They then held me for months. Probation come to see

01:12:57.600 me. So a week before my appeal, a week before I had my appeal, I had a probation officer who had been

01:13:03.640 to see my wife and assess my home for my release from prison. And then they come to see me where

01:13:09.900 they informed me that one of my conditions, because my HTC, which is where you're released

01:13:14.700 on tag, my tag date was coming up in September. Tag is where you have an electronic tag around your

01:13:22.520 ankle and you go home. And so basically if you get a 30 month prison sentence after three and a half

01:13:28.400 months, I'd be let home where for another three months I'd spend where I have to be in my house

01:13:34.100 between seven and seven. So seven o'clock at night and seven o'clock in the morning, you have to be at

01:13:37.440 home. So probation, this is the probation service. So they come to see me because they were assessing

01:13:43.100 my property. They went to meet with my wife and my family and about me being released on, on,

01:13:49.040 on tag. They then told me that my condition, this is where it becomes very apparent what all of this

01:13:55.020 is about. My condition upon release will be, I'll be banned from the internet, banned from using the

01:14:02.700 internet till June, 2019. How, what does that have to do with? You tell me. You know, my previous prison

01:14:10.700 sentence, when I was leading the English Defense League, my condition, which was for legally entering

01:14:14.460 in America, my condition then was not to contact the EDL. So anyone, anyone who wants to sit and say

01:14:20.480 that this case, this current case is not politically motivated. That means that they'd have to accept,

01:14:25.820 they'd have to accept for it not to be politically motivated. They'd have to accept that the judge by

01:14:30.240 accident, incorrectly, a judge of 30 years or whatever, a top judge would not realise that he has to ask me

01:14:38.360 if I'm guilty or not guilty, would not have to tell me what I've done wrong, would not have to

01:14:44.340 let me speak to my solicitor. So then they'd have to buy into that. They'd then have to buy into the fact

01:14:50.180 that the prison accidentally hold me as a criminal prisoner, not a civil prisoner. They'd then have to

01:14:55.960 buy into the fact that just by accident, I was moved from the safety of Hull into HMP only and put under

01:15:02.520 all of these conditions. They'd then have to see that it's normal for someone to be banned from the internet.

01:15:10.300 That would put you out of business and it would shut you up on a hundred other matters.

01:15:14.100 Which is what...

01:15:14.660 Unrelated to this court case.

01:15:17.220 Which is what all of this is about.

01:15:18.640 Who would have drafted that tag condition?

01:15:21.940 Who would have...

01:15:22.560 Well, who's the probation service...

01:15:24.160 I don't know.

01:15:24.520 ...run by the government?

01:15:26.400 So...

01:15:26.680 Just the internet completely.

01:15:28.400 Yeah, I'll ban from the internet till June 2001.

01:15:30.760 That's what this is about. This isn't about you standing outside of a court case.

01:15:33.740 This is about you having any opinions on any matter whatsoever.

01:15:36.560 It's about them silencing and stopping, which is something they've had a tactic to do

01:15:40.500 and tried to do for multiple years.

01:15:42.720 Now, if I sit here now and to be honest, Ezra, I come out of jail, clearly I'd lost a lot of weight.

01:15:51.000 I've put nearly a stone back on.

01:15:52.440 Well, I asked you, you told me when you went in, you weighed up, I'm going to just say it in pounds,

01:15:57.680 190 pounds, and you came out just over 150 pounds.

01:16:01.860 What's that in stone? How do you say it here in the UK?

01:16:03.840 Three stone.

01:16:05.180 That's not healthy to lose that much weight through starvation.

01:16:08.340 Of course not. And it's not healthy.

01:16:09.860 And I also know the worry in my head the whole time while I'm in there is

01:16:13.160 I know what I went through 2012 when I come out of prison,

01:16:19.100 which I never spoke publicly about because, again, it's quite embarrassing.

01:16:21.580 Even now, I'll never compare it to anything anyone's been through at war.

01:16:26.720 It's nothing like it, yeah?

01:16:27.880 It's nothing like it, but it is purposely done.

01:16:30.800 Everything that's happened with his sentence, the isolation, the purposely putting me in a position

01:16:35.580 where they can say, because of his safety, we need to put him in solitary.

01:16:39.620 Because of that, the threats to my wife, the police visits, all of these things

01:16:44.700 that I say purposely done, I knew that I'm a lot better now, even now.

01:16:51.480 When I come out of prison, I went straight on holiday for two weeks, yeah?

01:16:54.760 I went straight on holiday, which meant I didn't have to communicate, really talk.

01:16:58.840 I just lay by the pool, and I spoke to a couple of people that were other families on the holiday.

01:17:04.740 When I come back from holiday, I took my kids out.

01:17:08.360 And this is the one that most angers me, frustrates me,

01:17:12.580 is that if you put something in front of me, I'll fight it.

01:17:15.400 Put something there and I'll fight it.

01:17:17.540 And that's what I've done for 10 years.

01:17:18.900 Whenever they've knocked me down, I've got back up and carried on fighting.

01:17:21.560 And then what they've managed to do, I'll come out of jail.

01:17:25.300 I've gone away with my family.

01:17:26.560 I know I'm not right.

01:17:27.360 I know at the time I'm not right, yeah?

01:17:28.980 When I saw you the night you got out of prison, you looked shaken.

01:17:33.640 I was shaken.

01:17:35.480 I watched my speech.

01:17:36.660 You weren't yourself.

01:17:37.440 You weren't yourself.

01:17:38.820 No, and even now, I know I'm not myself, yeah?

01:17:42.580 I went to come out of, and I tried to go to a watch.

01:17:45.240 I went to watch Lou and play football.

01:17:46.960 And I took my kids.

01:17:48.020 Because I knew, even when I was in prison, I know I have to get out of jail.

01:17:52.180 When my family come to visit me by the end in H&P only,

01:17:55.320 I didn't want to see them.

01:17:57.440 Now, that's messed up, yeah?

01:17:59.320 Yeah.

01:17:59.800 And I would have butterflies for five hours before going to see my own family, yeah?

01:18:06.540 And in the end, you don't want to come out of yourself.

01:18:09.800 So where is it at first I'm complaining and arguing, get me in the gym, get me this, get me this?

01:18:13.720 By the end of it, you're just laying on a bed.

01:18:16.240 You're being a vegetable.

01:18:16.860 Yeah?

01:18:17.660 And so I know all these things.

01:18:19.420 Every single day, every opportunity, I've done my 30-minute...

01:18:23.660 There was four times in one week where they didn't even get me out for the 30 minutes.

01:18:27.440 Every Tuesday, I wasn't allowed out at all for 24 hours, yeah?

01:18:30.640 Right.

01:18:30.900 Because there was a judge doing adjudications, and they were too busy down the block.

01:18:34.340 So every Tuesday...

01:18:35.440 But so I know I need to get out.

01:18:37.320 So when I come home from Monterley, I thought, I need to get back into the system.

01:18:41.080 I want to get back out there.

01:18:42.520 I went to a Luton Town football match.

01:18:44.020 I left at halftime, and it wasn't just because we were losing.

01:18:47.500 It's because...

01:18:48.260 And I was supposed to have my friends come around to watch the boxing, which I cancelled.

01:18:51.320 And it's because I know I'm not right.

01:18:53.880 And do you know how upsetting it can be when I think that they've got away with doing it?

01:19:01.380 Losing that kind of weight, not on purpose, but because you're being starved,

01:19:05.940 that's a medical extreme condition.

01:19:09.740 Did any doctors prescribe you supplements, vitamins?

01:19:15.480 Did they take tests?

01:19:16.580 Did you examine?

01:19:18.440 I had a blood test.

01:19:19.120 I told every member of that staff how concerned I was about my weight loss.

01:19:24.240 And they must have seen...

01:19:25.080 I was shocked when I saw you when you got out.

01:19:26.700 I couldn't believe you.

01:19:27.180 All they had to do was make me in harm.

01:19:29.880 So I've had another £10.

01:19:31.040 Another £10 would have been another six or seven tins of tuna a week.

01:19:34.440 And what do they care?

01:19:35.480 It's your own money.

01:19:36.980 But did a doctor ever see you?

01:19:39.200 So a doctor took my blood test.

01:19:41.940 So what I sense is that when I went to court...

01:19:44.080 So basically, bearing in mind, it took them a couple of hours to send me to prison.

01:19:48.020 I've then gone before...

01:19:49.180 It took me two months before I can get back into a court to see a judge.

01:19:53.500 Now, when I went before the court, the high court, the judge heard everything, yeah?

01:19:59.080 So he knew how wrong it all was.

01:20:01.040 They still kept me in prison for another two weeks in solitary confinement.

01:20:04.780 He could have released me...

01:20:05.780 He should have released me on bail there and then.

01:20:07.280 So when did the doctor take your blood?

01:20:11.100 So when I come back after that court case...

01:20:14.060 Because I think in court, it had been made public about my health, about my worry, about my concerns, about my solicitor's concerns.

01:20:22.620 And then, so a day before my verdict, the mental health team come to see me and they took me for a meeting, where I sat before the mental health team, where I said to them, like, I can't do another four months this, yeah?

01:20:39.080 So it was only when your story was told in public court, did a doctor...

01:20:44.580 They would have seen you wasting away, but it was only when the public court...

01:20:47.720 He come and took blood samples...

01:20:49.600 Did he ask you any questions or did he just take blood?

01:20:51.820 Did he ask you...

01:20:52.460 No, they asked me questions.

01:20:53.180 Every time I spoke to them, I told them, you need to get me out of this cell.

01:20:55.580 Did he give you any diagnosis?

01:20:58.400 Did he give you any prescriptions?

01:20:59.960 Did he say, give this man more food?

01:21:02.800 No.

01:21:03.300 Did you ever see that doctor again?

01:21:05.040 No.

01:21:05.300 Are you sure it was a real doctor?

01:21:07.220 No, so I don't know.

01:21:08.800 I don't even know if it was a...

01:21:09.620 It was a nurse or...

01:21:10.480 A nurse or someone on their rounds or someone who worked in the prison in the healthcare.

01:21:13.900 Have you ever got the results of that blood test?

01:21:15.640 No, my solicitor's been trying to get it now.

01:21:17.180 Did you go to a doctor once you got out of prison?

01:21:20.320 Yeah, I did.

01:21:21.260 That'll be interesting to see.

01:21:22.960 But you've put 10 pounds back on?

01:21:24.940 I've put 10 pounds back on.

01:21:26.380 And I've been...

01:21:28.820 So I've been to see a doctor, a Muslim doctor.

01:21:33.880 Lovely fellow.

01:21:36.000 So I've been to see him.

01:21:37.240 He's diagnosed me.

01:21:39.960 Again, it's an embarrassing thing because I'm not going to sit here and look and say,

01:21:45.020 do you know what?

01:21:45.300 It's actually embarrassing.

01:21:46.500 It's humiliating.

01:21:47.720 It was done to you.

01:21:49.440 It winds me up because they've been allowed to do it.

01:21:51.500 And it didn't have to be this way.

01:21:53.760 No one can justify it.

01:21:54.740 No one can answer the question.

01:21:56.440 Do you know the media?

01:21:57.960 All of this can happen.

01:22:00.280 All of this can happen with the full support of every single politician in that building

01:22:05.740 and every single media outlet.

01:22:08.140 Not one media.

01:22:09.180 When your letters, begging for food, begging for some social interaction, asking for just

01:22:13.960 a simple TV, when those letters were obtained by the Daily Mail, instead of writing about

01:22:19.760 your abuse, they mocked your handwriting style.

01:22:22.680 They said that it was a handwriting of someone who was insecure.

01:22:25.240 Well, you were insecure.

01:22:26.100 Wouldn't you be?

01:22:26.740 You were physically...

01:22:27.660 I was surrounded by people who were threatening me every minute of every day.

01:22:30.480 My wife was under threat.

01:22:31.540 My mother was under threat.

01:22:32.980 I'm held...

01:22:33.500 I knew in conditions that I was...

01:22:35.920 Look, it's 2080.

01:22:37.580 You would not hold...

01:22:39.080 You would not be allowed to put a dog in the position they put me, treat it the way they

01:22:44.360 treated me, without the RSPCA coming and doing soundbatch.

01:22:46.740 You shout at a dog, you starve a dog, you give a dog no exercise, you put a dog in a box

01:22:54.280 in that heat.

01:22:55.440 You're exactly right.

01:22:56.280 And it's...

01:22:58.280 Everyone who's...

01:23:01.280 I remember seeing these human rights lawyers, everyone fell over each other and pushed each

01:23:07.920 other out of the way to give hit piece after hit piece to BBC Channel 4 Sky News.

01:23:12.420 They all done big hit pieces on why I deserve to be in prison.

01:23:14.940 I remember they had a human rights lawyer on explaining why you ought to be in prison.

01:23:19.960 Here's the thing.

01:23:20.340 Why don't I talk about my human rights?

01:23:22.480 Even after the Court of Appeal quashed the original sentence and just devastated it in

01:23:30.840 five ways.

01:23:32.280 They didn't just sit on the...

01:23:34.060 You see, now I was worried.

01:23:35.560 When I was in prison, I didn't believe.

01:23:37.740 My solicitor's telling me, they've got to let you out.

01:23:40.420 Yeah?

01:23:40.800 And I'm saying, they're not going to let me out.

01:23:43.080 Right?

01:23:43.220 I know they're not going to let me out.

01:23:44.580 I'm sitting here now.

01:23:46.300 I'm still having to seek medical treatment.

01:23:52.280 I'm still...

01:23:53.360 I face another court trial now on the 27th of this month.

01:23:58.160 For the exact same matter in Leeds.

01:24:01.000 The exact same matter in Leeds.

01:24:02.040 The Court of Appeal didn't have to order that.

01:24:03.820 The Court of Appeal didn't have to order it.

01:24:05.360 And in fact, when they did order it, I never thought they'd go through with it.

01:24:09.380 Because I thought this was just to save a bit of face.

01:24:12.000 Because obviously, it's been proven of what they've done.

01:24:14.140 The whole world's watching.

01:24:15.520 Now the headlines aren't Tommy Robinson freed and quashed, conviction quashed.

01:24:19.800 The headlines are Tommy Robinson to be retried.

01:24:22.160 I thought, I get it.

01:24:23.280 They're saving a bit of face.

01:24:24.420 This is the government who are ordering a retrial.

01:24:27.880 Now what they're saying by retrying me is that they don't think the two months, two and a half month prison sentence I've served, the two months on solitary confinement, the treatment, they don't think that that warrants enough of a punishment for standing and talking.

01:24:43.420 I'm not inciting.

01:24:46.060 And to anyone who says I was jeopardising the trial, the trial had already finished.

01:24:48.920 The trial had already finished.

01:24:50.920 These laws that are being used on the Muslim grooming gangs, I think that we should have journalists challenging these in the courts of law.

01:24:58.220 But the journalists are not challenging them.

01:25:01.600 They're not standing up for free speech or journalist rights.

01:25:05.020 They're actually happy to see.

01:25:06.300 They were all ecstatic to see me imprisoned.

01:25:09.320 I saw some of your supporters writing to Amnesty International and other groups like that when you were in prison, and I was copied on the replies.

01:25:19.440 They would say, oh, it was nothing to do with free speech or human rights.

01:25:23.680 It was a violation of a court order.

01:25:25.920 But now that the Court of Appeal has proved that false, you would expect Amnesty, Reporters Without Borders, all these civil liberties groups to speak out now that you've been vindicated by the Court of Appeal.

01:25:37.380 So dead silence, not just from them.

01:25:40.340 Where are the liberal journalists who would say, well, I disagree with Tommy Robinson's style, but this is the UK and we don't send people to prison for 10 weeks?

01:25:50.060 Well, we've never sent a journalist to prison since 70 years of Contempt Caller.

01:25:55.700 Where are those people who used to stand up for civil liberties?

01:26:00.040 Again, Ezra, I speak about Islam, and that is so terrifying for anyone to be seen to sort of side with or take up my case that they all run a mile.

01:26:12.680 You've seen yourself.

01:26:13.760 How many lawyers, how impossible was it to find a lawyer to represent me?

01:26:16.740 We went through seven law firms before we found someone who would represent you in Canterbury.

01:26:21.000 That's because they're scared.

01:26:22.280 Seven law firms.

01:26:23.340 We're almost out of time, Tommy.

01:26:24.680 Why don't you tell me about both of those?

01:26:26.760 Because I saw that picture of you coming out of prison with six big duffel bags.

01:26:30.140 I thought, what's in the duffel bags?

01:26:32.040 You told me those were letters.

01:26:32.960 They were all letters.

01:26:33.680 Letters and cards from every single place.

01:26:35.680 Why don't you tell me about those?

01:26:36.820 Because you're in prison in a box.

01:26:39.160 So my concern through all of this, through everything we've done, I've done, is that I will, in fact, inevitably I will be killed.

01:26:50.020 I know I will, yeah?

01:26:51.280 That's something that in the early years was hard to come to terms with.

01:26:54.400 I've completely at ease with that now, yeah?

01:26:57.940 My worry was that it would have been for nothing.

01:27:00.860 My worry was that, bearing in mind the government campaign and the media campaign and all this hate campaign and all the campaign against us to slander me, I'd be killed and forgotten about, and it won't bring about change.

01:27:15.060 Now, and I really thought that deeply after Lee Rigby was beheaded, just not far from here, when we have a soldier beheaded on our streets, and in fact, nothing doesn't just change, the situation gets a lot worse.

01:27:27.220 Since Lee Rigby was beheaded, 2,000 Muslims were allowed to go fight for ISIS and 600 of them come home, yeah?

01:27:32.180 Nothing's changed.

01:27:33.220 We're more in danger than we've ever been, yeah?

01:27:35.140 Nothing's changed.

01:27:36.660 So when I can see a British armed serviceman beheaded on the streets, and the problem excel, and not just excel, but the politicians bend over each other for who can defend Islam the most after it, then the exact sanctions and reason why the man committed the terrorists, that Lee Rigby's killer handed a woman a piece of paper with 55 verses from the Koran that he says forced him to do it.

01:27:57.200 So when we're years on, we're still struggling to debate or talk about these issues, and there's no mainstream people talking about it, I thought, I'll get killed, and it won't have had an effect, or it won't have made a difference.

01:28:10.060 And then I watched the response to my arrest, and the, how can I, without getting emotional again, it's to say that going forward, I now know that it would not, it would, I think, cause a revolution.

01:28:29.700 So, again, like, if I have this minute, first of all, I'd like to talk to my supporters, but to the, to the government, to the people in positions of power pulling strings, like, I'm sitting in a winning position now, because in this battle, because even if I'm killed, which I think you'll let happen, or you'd want to happen, there's going to be a revolution in this country anyway.

01:28:55.920 And, and, and for me, I want debate, change, I want all these issues brought to the forefront.

01:29:03.920 The whole world has watched and talked about the Muslim paedophile grooming rape of our youth since my arrest.

01:29:11.080 I'm sitting here, and I sat in prison, yeah, I didn't like it, but I smiled many times, and I smiled a lot, and I smiled because everything I do, and then to be honest, I say I'll sacrifice my life tomorrow.

01:29:25.920 To bring the change that's needed, yeah?

01:29:28.060 If I'm willing to do that, then all I want is the positive outcome, yeah?

01:29:33.520 All I want is a safe and prosperous future for the next generation of our children.

01:29:36.980 I don't think that we should be having to bow our heads and cower every time you hear a bang in London.

01:29:41.040 I don't think four terrorist attacks last year that were successful, 12 stopped.

01:29:44.500 All of these things, the next generation of children being taught that they should be ashamed of who they are, their identity, their culture, their history, their, our own identity, our own culture is under attack.

01:29:55.920 And I want our next generations to feel pride in who they are, pride in where they come from, and actually to understand who they are and where they come from, and to understand the sacrifices that have been given to them for free speech, free speech which is being curtailed across this country.

01:30:10.100 All of those things, and I sit here now in quite a comfortable position.

01:30:13.020 I don't think I'm in a difficult position.

01:30:14.980 I think they are.

01:30:15.600 I think that because if I'm killed, I'm going to succeed.

01:30:20.000 If I'm not killed, I'm still going to succeed.

01:30:23.240 Because I may have had a struggle period now, but everything you try to do is not going to work.

01:30:32.060 You will have to kill me.

01:30:33.500 And even by killing me, or even by allowing me to be killed, it's still going to have the negative effect that you wish for.

01:30:39.060 And if you can't see now, the populist revolution that is swinging, I spoke about it, Ezra, for 10 years.

01:30:47.140 I said nine years ago on stages, the swing from left to right that you can't stop.

01:30:51.880 There's no Islamic organisation with funds in the world that can stop it.

01:30:56.620 There's no police force that can stop it.

01:30:58.180 There's no government that can stop it.

01:30:59.860 None of you can stop it.

01:31:01.360 It's underway.

01:31:02.240 It's happening.

01:31:02.780 The elections in Austria, the elections in Italy, the elections across the whole of Europe, it's coming.

01:31:07.520 And I know I'm on the right side of history.

01:31:09.820 So essentially, I sit there and those people support and sitting and seeing the public support give me that feeling that I've doubted.

01:31:19.900 And that feeling that I need to, every time I kiss my kids and walk out of the door, to know that it will carry on and it will continue no matter what happens.

01:31:28.860 And I know that.

01:31:29.640 And again, and I also know, because in previous prison sentences or previous things that have happened, but the world's watched this and the world is quite shocked with what's gone on.

01:31:39.280 It's actually not the worst that's gone on.

01:31:41.260 There's far worse that's gone on.

01:31:42.520 And I sit in a position where I'm comfortable and I know that at the minute I may be having to concentrate on the 27th of September where I'm sure, I'm sure I'm going to be offered a deal.

01:31:59.500 In this deal, I'm going to be told if I plead guilty, I will get time served.

01:32:03.560 Yeah, that means you won't have to go back to jail.

01:32:05.480 I won't have to go back to prison.

01:32:07.340 And then the only difficult position in any of this is just because of my family, because my son cried every day for two months.

01:32:16.660 I thought it would take a couple of weeks and it'd ease up a bit.

01:32:18.980 He didn't.

01:32:19.820 He absolutely rocked him.

01:32:21.620 And I then have to make a decision that will put my son, upset my family, but I don't want to do a deal.

01:32:36.460 I'd done a deal when I left the English Defence League for the same reasons, because they had me over a barrel ready to go back to prison in solitary confinement.

01:32:42.960 I don't want to be in that position again.

01:32:45.080 I don't want to make a mistake again.

01:32:48.620 So I don't, yeah, I know now, I sit here comfortably now and I know that no matter what happens on the 27th of September, where I truthfully believe I'll be back in prison, because unless I come to an agreement with them that saves their face, I think I'll get slammed.

01:33:06.560 And under whatever technicality they use to say that, the facts are the court case had finished.

01:33:13.800 The facts are I didn't say anything that could have jeopardised that trial.

01:33:17.220 The facts are journalists across our country breach reporting restrictions day in, day out.

01:33:21.040 Every week there's a reporting restriction breached.

01:33:23.060 The facts are no one goes to jail for it.

01:33:25.100 The facts are that the British public and the world have viewed this.

01:33:31.040 They've seen what's going on.

01:33:33.380 I sit here very comfortable knowing that my family will forever be looked after.

01:33:39.180 I've got no worry about it anymore.

01:33:40.800 That was my main worry.

01:33:41.700 I'm full guns blazing.

01:33:42.840 And I'm blazing in a way that I think I'm going into positions and places where even when I worked for you, Ezra, I knew you had my best interest to hire.

01:33:51.320 I knew you did.

01:33:52.160 You didn't want, where if I said I'm going to do this, Ezra, you'd be saying, no, you're going to get seriously hurt.

01:33:57.060 You're going to end up in prison.

01:33:57.900 I think that to be able to bring about the changes needed, you can't think about or worry about those things.

01:34:06.940 You can't because you'll never get the change done that's needed.

01:34:10.340 So I now know that even coming out of this, coming out of court on the 27th of September, I will go full steam ahead.

01:34:17.520 And I don't need to worry anymore or I don't have the doubt anymore that A, my family won't be looked after and B, that people won't care.

01:34:25.260 Because what really was a really, it was a bit of, was reading the letters I read from 2 o'clock, 2 p.m. to 7 p.m. every day.

01:34:35.720 That was my, I tried to get myself in a regime and I read and the letters and knowing how much it means and the feeling, the passion that has, look, I become a symbol.

01:34:50.160 It's not all, it wasn't all about because of me or because of what I've done, it become a symbol for people who feel oppressed, who feel silenced, who feel marginalized, who feel that they're being, they're being led down a path and our country's being led down a path and they're concerned.

01:35:06.420 And I read so many letters of concern from grandmothers, from mothers, from old people, young people, gay people, straight people, Muslim people.

01:35:17.200 I had letters from everyone everywhere and what become apparent is the size of the feeling.

01:35:23.960 And I think that was viewed by the tens of thousands of people marching on Westminster after seven days.

01:35:30.660 I think that they should really, it should be a wake-up call for them, not for me.

01:35:34.280 I keep getting told I'm in a difficult position, even by my lawyers.

01:35:38.200 I don't think I am.

01:35:39.880 I know what I, I know, I know what I want to do and what I'm going to do and I want to play a part, whatever part I can.

01:35:47.620 In bringing awareness and attention to issues that are, quite frankly, not just being ignored, but being covered up.

01:35:55.840 Well, we'll be there on September 27th at the Old Bailey, as they put you to trial again.

01:36:01.980 The Old Bailey.

01:36:02.940 The Old Bailey is a court for the biggest, the biggest terrorist or murder trials, the most senior court of our country.

01:36:10.800 I'm there for talking into an iPhone outside a courtroom and we know it didn't prejudice the trial because the trial ended.

01:36:20.720 So we know the verdict has been given.

01:36:22.480 The judge actually said that.

01:36:23.640 I'm in there and whilst we're just, again, I'll just finish on these, these reporting restrictions.

01:36:30.040 I sense in, I sense these laws being used and I'll go off point again now.

01:36:37.200 Now, at one point, I was arrested and I was given a football, an attempt at giving under football law legislation.

01:36:46.000 And what they said is they wanted to ban me from football stadiums.

01:36:49.160 Now, included in this ban was a map that would ban me from the entire Muslim community of Luton and the Luton Town Centre.

01:36:57.120 So on Saturdays, I would not be allowed into Luton, my hometown.

01:36:59.820 The train station town centre or the entire, they drew a map around the entire Muslim community.

01:37:04.260 Now, what they've done in this case was they use football legislation to try and invoke this law, which would limit my freedoms.

01:37:11.860 Now, it was thrown out of court by a judge.

01:37:14.840 It cost me thousands of pounds to defend.

01:37:16.840 The judge's comments were the case against me was dishonest, vague and cagey.

01:37:20.600 It wasn't the police because Beds police actually stood up for me in the case when they were put in court.

01:37:25.700 It was the football policing unit, which is the home office.

01:37:29.180 It was the government.

01:37:30.600 Now, these reporting restrictions, I believe, I still believe, are just another law and another way of silencing and stopping people.

01:37:41.860 From being known, the full details day in, day out of what's happening in these cities.

01:37:47.340 And essentially, the minute this case is done on the 27th of September, I'm going to work with others to bring videos and documentaries to every town and city, from every town and city, with the details and all of the people who are in power.

01:38:03.640 This is why they don't like me, I believe, because the people in power, as in the people who took payoffs, didn't lose their pensions, knew these young girls were being raped, stood by and allowed it.

01:38:16.140 Police officers, senior police officers, politicians, care workers, I'm going to find them.

01:38:22.440 And the whole British public is going to be made aware who they are and what they ignored and the horrific crimes that have been happening to generations of our children.

01:38:34.060 Well, Tommy, we'll be there to cover you.

01:38:36.700 You're a former employee of ours, but we still support you in your mission.

01:38:41.860 I've called you the last lion of the UK, and lions are untameable, and lions are a symbol of the United Kingdom.

01:38:51.360 I see them everywhere, Trafalgar Square, Buckingham Palace, and we support you.

01:38:56.980 We'll be there on the 27th.

01:38:58.560 We want you to stay safe, but we also want you to fight.

01:39:01.180 I'm grateful as well.

01:39:02.040 I'm grateful to you, Ezra, for stepping in as well.

01:39:04.840 I'm on behalf of our thousands of supporters of you.

01:39:08.760 And to every single person, any person.

01:39:11.060 I haven't made another video since I come home.

01:39:13.960 This is the first one.

01:39:15.440 So I want people to understand just how much the support meant and the feeling of knowing that I have that support.

01:39:25.560 I'm actually, the week after next, if you're one of the people that wrote to me, I'm going to be door stopping.

01:39:32.200 I kept my letters.

01:39:34.960 I went through my letters, and I put that to that side, that to that side.

01:39:37.920 Story, news, story, follow-up.

01:39:41.140 So I need to go through them all, but I want to, I can't knock at every single person's house.

01:39:46.180 That would be exciting.

01:39:47.360 People get a home visit from Tom.

01:39:48.640 But I want to knock, to bring flowers and chocolates to some of the people and the women.

01:39:53.820 And I want people to make sure they know how much their support meant.

01:39:59.180 Tommy, thanks for spending time with us today.

01:40:00.620 Thanks, Ezra.

01:40:01.260 Cheers.

01:40:02.200 That was my feature interview with Tommy Robinson, the last lion of the United Kingdom.

01:40:07.920 What he told us was heartbreaking, enraging, inspiring, desperate, but a little bit hopeful, too.

01:40:16.280 That was the edited version of our conversation.

01:40:18.720 We actually spoke for more than two hours.

01:40:21.120 If you want to see the extended cut, you could find it on our website, therebel.media.

01:40:26.780 Tommy has to go back to court.

01:40:28.660 The Attorney General is insisting on a retrial for contempt of court for that same incident back in Leeds in May.

01:40:36.660 They actually want to convict him again, maybe to even throw him back in prison.

01:40:41.600 Just yesterday, I received a new invoice from Tommy's law firm, Carson Kaye.

01:40:47.300 They're a good firm who won at the Court of Appeal, but now they have to prepare for his second trial.

01:40:53.100 It will cost tens of thousands of pounds.

01:40:55.480 And I'm sorry to ask you again, but if you are at all moved by Tommy's case, please help us by going to SaveTommy.com.

01:41:04.240 Any surplus after the lawyers are paid will go to Tommy's family to help take care of them.

01:41:08.820 Thank you.

01:41:10.160 You saw how grateful he is for your support.

Rebel News Podcast - September 12, 2018

SPECIAL： Ezra Levant's in-depth interview with Tommy Robinson

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