Tracy Thurman and Roger Veer join me to argue the case for a pardon for Bitcoiner Roger Ver, who is facing 109 years in prison for tax evasion and conspiracy to commit tax evasion. This is a must listen!
00:00:51.000His spirit, his love of this country, he's done an amazing job building one of the most powerful youth organizations ever created, Turning Point USA. We will not embrace the ideas that have destroyed countries, destroyed lives, and we are going to fight for freedom on campuses across the country.
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00:01:46.000This is all in the context of President Trump appointing friend of the show and friend of mine, really great American David Sachs as AI and crypto czar.
00:01:53.000For those that don't know Roger, you can check out his website at freerogernow.com.
00:03:12.000Walk us through all of this here, and thanks for taking the time.
00:03:15.000Charlie and Andrew, it's such a pleasure to join you guys.
00:03:17.000Yes, I'm here with Roger, my friend, who is facing 109 years in prison for attempting to pay his taxes properly.
00:03:26.000As you can see, he cannot speak today.
00:03:30.000Anything he says can and will be used against him.
00:03:33.000And it's just simply too big a risk that the IRS will use anything that comes out of his mouth.
00:03:38.000The DOJ will use anything that comes out of his mouth against him.
00:03:40.000So I'm here today and I want to tell you, I want to answer your questions in the way that I believe Roger would answer them if he could speak freely today.
00:03:48.000Okay, well then walk us through the history here.
00:03:50.000So yeah, sorry, I know that you guys are overseas.
00:03:54.000And is there political bias against him because of his, let's just say his passion for cryptocurrency?
00:04:02.000Yes, there's absolutely a bias against Roger.
00:04:04.000This really goes back 24 years when Roger faced charges after he criticized the IRS and the ATF. He criticized the ATF for what they had done in Waco, Texas, and the ATF became...
00:04:21.000And so they played the game of, you know, "Find me the man, I'll show you the crime." And he faced charges for selling fireworks on eBay, a thing which hundreds of people were doing.
00:04:40.000So he actually served time in federal prison for that, again, at a time when nobody else selling these was being bothered at all.
00:04:46.000And then, so when he got out of prison, it was clear to him that he was a target of the U.S. government.
00:04:52.000The ATF, by the way, in a meeting with his attorneys and with the prosecutor went as far as to say, When the prosecutor was saying, you know, maybe we should just give him a fine, just tell him to go get a license to sell these things, said, but you didn't hear what he said about us.
00:05:06.000So this was clearly a case motivated by...
00:05:13.000Hatred for what he had said about them.
00:05:15.000So the minute that Roger could leave this country, he did.
00:05:21.000And as soon as he could, he gave up his U.S. citizenship and got citizenship in St. Kitts and Nevis because he needed somewhere else to belong and did not feel safe being an American any longer, which as an American is horrible to me, right?
00:05:39.000And so at that time, he had to, when he renounced her U.S. citizenship, there's something called the exit tax, which is this unconstitutional tax that you have to pay upon leaving if you're worth over $2 million.
00:05:52.000And Roger did his utmost to fully comply with that.
00:05:55.000There's a motion to dismiss that you can find on freerogernow.org, which lays it all out and shows beyond a shadow of a doubt that he did everything he possibly could to comply.
00:06:04.000And yet the U.S. government has been going scorched earth against him since that time, attempting to take him down.
00:06:40.000We saw a similar type of lawfare against Ross Ulbricht, who definitely did some things wrong, but does not believe, you know, deserve two life sentences for that, for a similar type of cryptocurrency-related pioneering.
00:06:55.000Tracy, can you explain that a little bit more, that people that get into cryptography, that get into some of these alternative ways of disrupting The antiquated currency model and in new technology seem to be recipients very forcefully from the federal government and the traditional banking system.
00:07:14.000There is no greater threat to the traditional banking system than permissionless, peer-to-peer, decentralized exchange between individuals.
00:07:23.000And so if you are a person who supports that, if you're a person who pioneers that, if you are one of the people who enables that, you have a target on your back.
00:07:58.000And of course, the people who accepted that from him have done very well for themselves.
00:08:01.000If you started taking, you know, if you got $10 worth of We're good to go.
00:08:21.000Outside of the control of the coming CBDC system.
00:08:23.000And in a world where people are being debanked, where people are being deprogrammed, where people are being censored, the most powerful thing we have is permissionless finance.
00:08:42.000Well, yeah, I mean, I'm just looking at this, Tracy, and seeing the way that the world has shifted.
00:08:47.000I mean, obviously, I remember back to President Trump speaking at the Libertarian Conference.
00:08:52.000One of the biggest applause lines that he got was when he said, we're going to set up A Bitcoin reserve at the federal government.
00:09:01.000He was going to create a hub here in the United States to become a hub of innovation, pioneering when it came to blockchain and crypto.
00:09:10.000And so it feels almost like, you know, You were caught in a moment of time when this technology was so new and it was this emergent threat, and they thought that they could stomp out one of the innovators behind that.
00:09:24.000But it has grown so tremendously in the years that have followed.
00:09:29.000Are you guys watching this from abroad and seeing the changing climate?
00:09:33.000And you have to be feeling somewhat optimistic about the future is shaping up.
00:09:39.000It's beautiful to see the way that crypto is being embraced by more and more people.
00:09:45.000And honestly, I think that's due in large part to the lawfare that so many people in the incoming administration have personally faced.
00:09:52.000Look at what Donald Trump has faced himself.
00:09:56.000Look at the evaluation of Mar-a-Lago case.
00:10:01.000All of them are just outrageous, clear targeting of a man that the deep state does not like.
00:10:07.000And anyone who has been through that, we know Melania was debanked after the election in 2020. She revealed that she and possibly even Barron were denied bank accounts at that time, and their bank accounts were closed.
00:10:22.000And so people in this administration have a sensitivity to this and an awareness of this issue that has never been present in the executive branch before.
00:10:31.000And that's very exciting for those of us who are fighting this tyranny, because we feel like maybe for the very first time we have people in a decision making role who will understand and appreciate this problem.
00:10:44.000And maybe we truly hope we'll step up and not just pardon Ross on day one, but pardon Roger as well, or possibly the incoming DOJ will recognize what an atrocious case this is and dismiss the charges entirely.
00:10:59.000Bye. you Hey everybody, Charlie Kirk here.
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00:12:30.000Yeah, the accusation is tax evasion, and as soon as you start to look into it, you realize it's utterly ludicrous.
00:12:37.000He's accused of not paying enough on the exit taxes in 2014, and then he's accused of not paying enough in 2017. In 2017, it's bizarre, right?
00:12:47.000Because by that point, he wasn't a U.S. citizen.
00:12:50.000So why on earth would he need to have paid those taxes?
00:12:53.000And in 2014, it gets a little complicated, but to break it down really quickly...
00:12:59.000When you exit the country and you give up your citizenship, you have to do something called a constructive hypothetical sale, which is that you pretend you sell everything you own in one day, the day before you leave.
00:13:12.000And the reality was that Roger owned such a huge percentage of the Bitcoins in the world at that time that if he had tried to sell them, the trading volume was, I think, $10 million.
00:13:20.000And so anything you sold over $10 million was utterly worthless.
00:13:24.000And so if the government's rule is, if you sold everything in one day, how much would it be worth?
00:13:30.000The answer is, anything over the global market cap for that asset is worth nothing.
00:13:36.000If everybody in the entire U.S. decided to sell their house tomorrow, would you get Zillow value?
00:13:41.000I think all of us know the answer to that question.
00:13:43.000So they essentially want Zillow value for everybody's home if everybody sold on the same day.
00:13:48.000That's what they're asking for out of Roger.
00:13:52.000But what it came down to is that Roger consulted the best tax accountants, the best lawyers in the entire country, hired the best possible team, and he told them, look, I know the IRS doesn't like me.
00:14:21.000We know that because in 2017, they raided his attorney's office.
00:14:25.000Armed federal agents raided his attorneys, interrogated his attorneys, seized reams of documents from his attorneys and attempted to use them against Roger.
00:14:35.000And this should terrify every American because they're attempting to destroy attorney-client privilege using this case.
00:14:42.000If what you say to your attorney is no longer private, what chance do you have?
00:14:49.000So this case should be horrifying to every American because it's about destroying your attorney-client privilege and it's about destroying your right to rely on your accountant, your right to rely on your attorney when it comes to the U.S. tax code that 70,000 pages of which none of us can possibly memorize.
00:15:06.000And so if they do this to Roger, they're coming for the rest of us next.
00:15:43.000And you have convinced me, so you could add me to whatever list you want.
00:15:46.000We're going to send out a tweet trying to say that we want to see President Trump get rid of the lawfare here, as he was once victim of one.
00:15:55.000So a pardon, lifting of charges, whatever it takes, it's time for a clean slate and to free Roger.
00:16:00.000Well, and to that point, Charlie, I mean, Roger, I know you can't talk right now because what you say could be used against you.
00:16:08.000I applaud you for showing up, nonetheless.
00:16:11.000And I would just say, as a country that is now poised to become the center of the crypto universe, you know, we're gonna need a lot of things.
00:16:24.000And we want to be a hub that invites and welcomes and celebrates our pioneers and our innovators instead of harassing them and driving them away.
00:16:33.000And to the extent that Charlie and I and the show could be a platform and a voice for that, I think we're happy to do it.
00:18:01.000So what do you have to make about some of the Senate Republicans that are fighting Hegseth, despite being from very deep red states?
00:18:12.000You know, listen, I think that a point of a Senate confirmation is to ask tough questions.
00:18:18.000I think it's very important to do that.
00:18:21.000Had Republicans not asked tough questions, Harriet Meyer would have been on the Supreme Court.
00:18:25.000So it's not a bad thing to ask him tough questions and to sit there and have your own conscience of your vote.
00:18:31.000But the point of a cabinet secretary is not that they are confirming, you know, their own cabinet secretary to believe their ideas and their policies.
00:18:38.000It's to say, are you qualified for the job?
00:18:41.000And then it's Donald Trump's decision, just like it was Obama's, just like it was Joe Biden's, just like it was, you know, George W. Bush's.
00:18:47.000So the litmus test shouldn't be, does this person have my shared ideology?
00:19:30.000Yeah, I mean, we were talking about that as we were prepping for this, and you just actually on your Nationals Populous newsletter, it's your Substack.
00:19:38.000Everybody check it out at natpop.substack.com.
00:19:42.000You have a new piece out here, and I found it extraordinarily fascinating.
00:19:46.000You actually have been diving into birth rates, and you mentioned that there was a little bit of an upturn, a little bit of a mini baby boom in the last year.
00:20:14.000It came from people, mothers who were not born in America.
00:20:18.000One in four people, one in four births in 2024 were by women who were not from America.
00:20:24.000Particularly a large increase in Came from people on the NCHV parole program that Joe Biden did.
00:20:36.000So it's people from Nicaragua, Haiti, Cuba, and Venezuela.
00:20:41.000Venezuelans specifically have a 55% higher birth rate than they were last year.
00:20:47.000Part of that is because there's more of them, but part of it is because they're on this two-year program that Joe Biden made up on his own that does not give them refugee status.
00:20:55.000It just allows them to apply for asylum while they're here, and then they have to go home if they fail to get it.
00:21:03.000Well, if you fail to get it, as most of them probably will, because they're probably not legitimate asylees, what better way to stay in the country than have an anchor baby?
00:21:11.000And really, birthright citizenship, as Donald Trump is becoming president and people saw This election could go either which way.
00:21:18.000A number of women either came across the border, illegal aliens came across the border pregnant in their ninth month, or they got pregnant while they were here for the purpose of delaying any possibility of deportation or making it much harder to separate families or use whatever case that was.
00:21:33.000So really, the baby boom was a big part of the baby boom came from our anchor baby system and our birthright citizenship, which the Supreme Court, by the way, has never ruled that illegal aliens have the right to birthright citizenship.
00:23:01.000It was like a work status of some sort, like a work permit of some sort.
00:23:04.000And he had a child who was here, and his child was an American citizen because he was legally allowed to be here.
00:23:11.000And that was why they sat there and said, if you're legally allowed to be here and your child is here, then your child is a citizen.
00:23:17.000It was never ruled for illegal immigrants.
00:23:20.000I think it was Justice Black who wrote something in an indentation in the 1960s or 70s, and Coulter constantly writes about this, the 1960s or 70s, that created the idea that it belonged to everybody.
00:23:32.000But the Supreme Court has never ruled on it.
00:23:35.000If this court did it, you know, I don't know.
00:23:38.000Roberts has been fairly good in immigration.
00:23:40.000The two that have not been wonderful are Gorsuch and Barrett.
00:23:46.000But it does seem to be decided upon by the courts because it has been a major factor In birth tourism, people using our country's law to sit there, come here, and be granted welfare status, because they're their child, and make it impossible to deport them.
00:24:05.000Look, I'm going to be realistic about my diet in December.
00:24:08.000It's going to be the worst month of the year in terms of eating right.
00:24:11.000Inevitably, all of us are going to be stuffing ourselves with treats, meats, and dishes into our mouths, leaving very little room for the right stuff.
00:24:18.000But I will take balance in nature every single day.
00:24:21.000Balance in nature is made from whole fruits and veggies.
00:24:23.000I will not skip taking those daily supplements.
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00:24:57.000Ryan, again, you might know this better than I, but here's the actual language.
00:25:05.000It says, All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, meaning they're subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside.
00:25:19.000Now, this language has been parsed apart, I mean, a lot over the years.
00:25:25.000And I mean, if we go back to the original, the debates within the Senate when the 14th Amendment was getting codified, what does that tell us?
00:25:35.000I mean, were senators literally saying like, hey, if you just drop a baby off on this side of the border, then obviously it's an American?
00:25:40.000Or was subject to the jurisdiction thereof meaning something different?
00:25:45.000No, of course they didn't think about illegal immigrants in, you know, 1866. This was not even, like, part of the conversation.
00:25:52.000It was for the descendants of slaves, so that way they couldn't benign citizenship, and it made sense in the time.
00:26:04.000And it has just been, you know, this open-ended question, and we have lived with it, But it is time, I think, for the Supreme Court to at least rule upon it, because I don't think there's a way of getting an amendment change through the states at this point or through the federal government.
00:26:19.000I think only the court could do it, and I think that we would probably have at least four votes off on the court.
00:26:26.000And it would just be decided if one more joined them.
00:26:28.000But it's very clearly not in the Constitution that anybody with a plane ticket could have their child be a subject of the United States, a citizen, and therefore make it very difficult to deport and have every benefit of the welfare system and the education and everything.
00:26:47.000No one thought this in 1866. There were no planes.
00:26:51.000And now there is this whole entire thing.
00:26:54.000There's a whole entire economy built around it.
00:26:56.000But specifically when you have a president like Joe Biden, who so flagrantly ignored the letter of the law and protecting our borders and let so many millions upon millions of people in this country, larger than most states is the new population that came in.
00:27:11.000They're all going to be trying to have children because they want to sit there and have an anchor to protect themselves, to be part of the United States.
00:27:40.000I think it was already the case in like Ireland as of, you know, or Scotland, but now over the entire UK. Yeah, I think it was England had that a couple years ago.
00:27:49.000But, I mean, they've had this story out almost every single year.
00:27:52.000I think it's almost clickbait because they just changed the way the spellings are.
00:28:37.000A third of births being from non-citizens?
00:28:40.000There is no greater country than the United States and the entire world.
00:28:43.000Who wouldn't want to try to come here?
00:28:45.000And if all you need is a plane ticket and nine months of being pregnant, you know, just wait around for 30 days.
00:28:51.000And that's why places like in Los Angeles and Miami and in New York, that's what they're all doing.
00:28:56.000In New York, at the Roosevelt Hotel, there was a ton of nine-month pregnant women getting in there knowing that Joe Biden was going to deport them and that they were going to have an avenue towards citizenship when their child sponsored them one day.
00:29:11.000American people are being hoodwinked into this because there's been no action by the courts, and the courts need to sit there and say, no, an illegal immigrant's child is not a citizen by the 14th Amendment.
00:30:22.000She, her entire curriculum on math is about the decolonization of math, how you strip whiteness from math.
00:30:30.000And she's what, and she has had hundreds, if not thousands of people pass through her classes, learning how to be math teachers from her examples.
00:30:38.000And they come, you know, if you think of the average person who want to be a teacher when they were, when you were younger, when you met them in grade school or high school, they were just probably, you know, a girl who wanted summers off and liked kids and yada, yada, yada.
00:30:50.000And then they go through this radicalization program through these teachers' colleges.
00:30:55.000I think one thing that could be done and that some places have started doing is I think there has to be a way to change the accreditation process around what it is to be a teacher.
00:31:05.000I don't think you should have to go to the teaching colleges to supplement for being a teacher.
00:31:10.000I think you could have classroom time or something else along with a comparative degree in order to become a teacher.
00:31:18.000We flipped the Miami-Dade School Board back two years ago.
00:31:21.000They've started a program to change the way they do literature and English Language Arts, ELA, to be classics, to base it on the classics.
00:31:31.000And when you have a classic-based curriculum in the public schools, which is possible, you no longer have the worry about teaching anti-racism language and literature because of that.
00:31:41.000I would say the third and final thing I'll say is that the tech in school is problematic because while the textbooks are incredibly regulated, the apps that most teachers use are not regulated.
00:31:54.00097% of all apps are given to schools for free with the sole purpose of then reselling children's data later on to other companies.
00:32:03.000It is preposterous and there's a ton of woke language within the apps themselves and they're very unregulated.
00:32:10.000As opposed to textbooks, which are very regulated.
00:32:15.000I'm going to ask a broad question, and we could pick this up at another time.
00:32:19.000Do you believe that we are looking five years prior to now and now five years ahead, so a 10-year window, we're heading in the right direction of a classical-based educational revolution?
00:32:49.000Where we're going to work on having school boards meet with each other from different districts across the country to discuss what policy changes are happening in one place and how they can happen every place and broadening that communication which doesn't happen enough.
00:33:02.000It's happening on the local level and it's happening now at the state level.
00:33:05.000The federal government now that Trump's president or will be president, I think that the grant program and the way that money is doled out will be the very, very important thing because a lot of stuff happens the way that D.C. doles out money.