In this episode, I had the pleasure of sitting down with my good friend and ultra-marathon finisher, Dr. Aaron Atiyah. Dr. Atiyah is a world-renowned nutritionist, ultra-runner, and all-around badass. He has an incredible amount of experience in the ultra marathon world, and is one of the few people I know who has run multiple 50 milers in the 50k and 100k distances. He is also one of only a few people in the world who has won multiple ultra marathons. In this episode we talk about how he got started with his running career, how he fell in love with nutrition, and how he has gone from being a pretty average runner to winning multiple 50k's and 100 milers. I hope you enjoy this episode as much as I enjoyed getting to know Aaron and learn about his journey in running and running in general. I hope that you enjoy listening to this episode and that it inspires you to go out and do what you need to do to get out there and run your best! Cheers, Joe and Matt! -Jon & Matt. See you next week for the next episode of the podcast! -Jon and Matt. See you then! If you like what you hear, please HIT SUBSCRIBE and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts! or wherever else you get your stuff! Thank you for listening! Timestamps: 5:30 - 6:00 - 8:15 - 9:20 - 11:00 12:20 15:10 - 16:40 - 18:15 20:30 27:40 29:00 | 30:30 | 33:00 / 32:00 +33:00 ? 35:00? 36:00 // 35:10 35:40 / 36:15? 39:30? 40:30 ? 40:40 ? 41:40? 45:10 ? 45:15 ? 42:00?? 47:00 & 45:00 Or 45:20 ? 47:45 44:40 + 47:40 & 47:10? 48:00???? ? 46:00 , 47:15 + 48:30 + 45:05 51:00 #1? Theme song by Theme Song by : Music by : "Solo?
00:00:54.000I remember one of the first things he ever said that really kind of resonated with me was I think someone was asking him about like what the effects are or the ketogenic diet in terms of like micronutrients and what maybe he'd be missing based on kind of like that normal profile of what you're supposed to get.
00:01:09.000And he was just like, you know, it's interesting because most of those studies and recommendations are based off of basically a standard American diet or a higher carb diet.
00:01:18.000So he's like, well, you might just not need the same.
00:01:27.000Yeah, and you know, I'm fascinated by you and I'm fascinated by anybody who does the kind of shit that you do.
00:01:35.000I mean, please explain to people all the different ultra marathons you've done and like what you've accomplished.
00:01:44.000Yeah, you know, it's interesting because, like, I still kind of see myself as a pretty average runner because, like, I mean, I competed in high school and made state cross-country and state track and that kind of thing for a small school.
00:01:57.000And then I went to a small Division III school and was...
00:01:59.000I'm pretty much average amongst a real good program at the D3 level.
00:02:04.000I always just did kind of like running longer, though.
00:02:09.000Once I got done with college, I kind of decided, well, let's see what's longer than some of those traditional collegiate races of 5K. To 10 kilometers.
00:02:18.000And, you know, I started kind of just dabbling that stuff.
00:02:21.000And then in 2010, I think I actually did my first ultra marathon, you know, partly because I was just like looking around and there turned out to be one in the state.
00:02:29.000I was I was living in Wisconsin at the time.
00:02:31.000And there was one that was kind of in my neck of the woods, and I actually had just decided to go back to grad school, and that one had a $1,000 prize purse on it.
00:02:40.000And I was like, you know what, if I can win that, $1,000 go a long way during grad school.
00:02:44.000So I did that one, and I ended up winning it, and it definitely hooked me.
00:02:49.000It was like the type of thing where I was like, I want to do more of these.
00:02:52.000And by 2011, I kind of jumped all in at the end of the year and did three 50-milers, and I think it was about a nine-week time frame.
00:03:20.000You know, it had to be partly just a little bit of success.
00:03:24.000You know, I wasn't necessarily used to winning.
00:03:27.000So, like, I mean, I've had good races and good times relative to what you probably see, like, in an average person.
00:03:33.000But, you know, when I went to, like, a competitive 5K, a competitive marathon or something like that, you know, I wasn't going to win unless it was kind of a local race.
00:03:41.000So kind of finding, you know, it's like anything, I guess, you kind of gravitate to what you feel you're good at, and then that kind of piques your interest.
00:03:50.000The other part was just I really enjoyed doing the long run.
00:03:54.000Like when you break up kind of like a training week, you have like a variety of different things.
00:03:57.000You've got like kind of, you know, base level runs, you've got specific workouts for the distance.
00:04:02.000And then most training programs are gonna have a long run once a week.
00:04:05.000And that was the one that was always my favorite.
00:04:07.000So wrapping my head around doing a bunch of those a week instead of just one was was really kind of appealing to me and When you're putting that much time into whatever you're training for, it's, I think, important to enjoy it.
00:04:18.000So being able to kind of enjoy the training process a lot was really appealing to me.
00:04:26.000When you're out there for that long, there's so many variables to consider and it's like...
00:04:31.000It's a blast for me to work through those, plan for those, and then adjust to them on the fly when you're out there and things inevitably go wrong or things pop up that you didn't expect.
00:04:43.000It's kind of hard to explain, but it's weird.
00:04:46.000One of the things in ultramarathon running that people always say is they'll have a race, and even if they have a bad race, say, I'm never doing one of these again, and then the next day they're on the internet looking for another race.
00:04:55.000It's There's this weird thing about it that you don't really know until you do it, but it sucks you in.
00:05:01.000That's the case with a lot of people when they talk about things that they have to suffer through.
00:05:05.000I've heard that when guys talk about those extreme hikes.
00:05:09.000You know that one that goes from Georgia all the way to Maine?
00:05:18.000That they say, I'll never fucking do that again.
00:05:20.000And then they're like, okay, what other hikes can I go?
00:05:22.000It's just once the pain, the physical pain, dies down, there's something about that challenge that stimulates in people like you and people that are into these really long distance things.
00:05:34.000Like, there's something about distance.
00:05:36.000There's something about, like you were saying, like, You weren't the best runner in high school or college, right?
00:05:42.000But there's something about the mind of an ultramarathoner.
00:05:47.000The type of person that can run 100 miles, 200 miles, 238 miles, those type of people, they're different people.
00:05:54.000And there's a strength, a mental strength, and the ability to just keep going on and on and on that I'm absolutely fascinated with.
00:06:02.000Yeah, you know, it is interesting, too, because the sport's grown quite a bit in the last decade or so, but it's still very much kind of a niche group, and then when you kind of hang out in that group, you start to kind of normalize it a little bit, I think.
00:06:14.000So then you start thinking, like, oh, 100 miles, it's just what we do.
00:06:18.000And then you, you know, you actually try to, like, separate yourself from the fact that you've done a few of those, or separate yourself from the fact that you've been hanging out with other people who are doing it, and you realize, oh, this is actually kind of A weird thing to kind of do as a human nowadays.
00:06:38.000I think I've done just shy of 50 total now.
00:06:42.000Everything from 50 kilometers, the furthest I've done is 200 kilometers, which is about 125 miles.
00:06:49.000I'd have to look to see how many I've won.
00:06:51.000It's really goofy, because when you start getting into the longer stuff, like 100 miles and beyond, you start, at least in my training program, you start to pick smaller races to use as training runs.
00:07:03.000And some of it, I think, is just because for me, if I'm going to go out and do like a 30 mile or 40 mile training run or something like that, it's kind of tedious to do that by yourself and then plan all the logistics of it.
00:07:14.000So if there's a race nearby and that's not too hard to get to, it's easier just to sign up for that, go and do that.
00:07:20.000So some of those, you know, I'll win if they're small enough, even though I'm not necessarily trying to go all out, so to speak, because I'm hoping to recover, kind of, and get back into training.
00:07:32.000So you'll pace yourself at one of these local races, maybe?
00:07:35.000Yeah, you know, the way I describe it is, and this is a real hard thing for a lot of people to do, I think.
00:07:40.000It's like you go into a race saying this is going to be a moderately difficult long run.
00:07:46.000So maybe a little faster than what I would do if I was just going to do it by myself, like unsupported, that sort of thing.
00:07:52.000And then I always tell myself 80% is the hardest you can go if you want to be able to come back and start training on time to meet the actual goal or the A-race.
00:08:02.000So when I do those, it's one of those things where, who knows, someone might show up that's as fast as you, or maybe a little slower than you normal, and if they're deciding to just hammer it that day, they might beat you, and you gotta be okay with that.
00:08:15.000Does the competitive part of you flare up, though?
00:08:17.000Well, yeah, it does, and that's the hardest part, and that's, I think, the main reason why some people won't do that approach, because there's certainly people who just, they stay away from races unless it's their A race, and they just say, if I'm gonna do a long run, I'll do it on my own, and Yeah,
00:08:44.000It's kind of a sport that I think is still a lot to learn, which I think is actually the case for a lot of things.
00:08:52.000Even things that are well-established, there's always something to learn or new things to pick up on.
00:08:57.000Well, it's one of those things, right, where once someone runs 100 miles and then a bunch of other people start doing it, like you said, it almost becomes normalized.
00:09:04.000And then people start to try to push that boundary.
00:09:07.000Now, I've been hearing talk about the woman Candice who runs the Moab 240. Yeah.
00:09:12.000They're talking about doing a 500. I heard that.
00:09:16.000I was like, you're out of your fucking mind.
00:09:25.000It took me a couple of years to do this before I got into the sport, but once I was in it for a couple of years, I kind of did a little research to see what the deal was with some of this stuff.
00:09:34.000The funny thing is that type of a distance isn't even unheard of.
00:09:40.000I forget what the book is called, but they actually had in Madison Square Garden, they used to host a six-day event where Guys and gals, I'm not sure if gals were doing it back then, but guys for sure were going there and seeing how far they could run in six days.
00:10:53.000So endurance sports like this are nothing new.
00:10:57.000Yeah, it's actually fascinating when you kind of look into it, because nowadays, in the United States, the trail running scene is definitely way bigger than the road running or certainly the track scene, but that wasn't always the case.
00:11:07.000If you look back into the 70s and 80s, there was a pretty big surge in ultramarathon running for flat-fast stuff.
00:11:13.000That's where we see a lot of the records coming from.
00:11:16.000So that's like a track, and you run as far and long as you can on a track?
00:11:21.000Track or a road or a really flat road?
00:11:23.000I had Goggins on, David Goggins, and he was talking about the first time he did one was on a track.
00:11:28.000Just ran in circles on a track, which has almost got to be more taxing for your mind because you're just seeing the same shit over and over and over again.
00:11:37.000Yeah, it's really fascinating to me because I've done both.
00:11:40.000I've done 100 milers on the trail and I've done 100 miles on a 400 meter track.
00:11:43.000And the fascinating thing is it is like what you said, it's almost a different event where mentally you're doing everything you can on that track to kind of separate yourself from the actual environment, envision yourself being somewhere else, you know, looking forward to little things to kind of not necessarily be thinking too far in advance because that can get overwhelming.
00:12:02.000Whereas when I'm out on the trails it's like you're usually in a pretty pristine beautiful area and you can kind of just take it as it comes and say oh cool now I get to see that or this is a neat area or I like this section and you look forward to that kind of diversity.
00:12:16.000Whereas on the track it's you see it once and you've seen it every time.
00:12:20.000And then it just kind of beats you up mentally from that side of things.
00:12:24.000But then, you know, there's other things about that, too, that help out, like, logistically.
00:12:28.000When you're on a track for 400 meters, you bring out one person, you put everything you may possibly want on a little table, and if I want something, I say, hey, can I get that?
00:12:42.000Yeah, whereas, you know, the trails, it depends.
00:12:44.000They've gotten a lot better with aid stations as the sport's grown.
00:12:47.000But, like, you know, you mess up your aid station, or if you get caught up in the moment and just blow through it and don't take care of yourself, you might have to suffer for an hour plus before you get help again.
00:12:56.000So that's where it kind of gets a little different, I think, logistically, when you're on the trails versus on the road.
00:13:03.000But yeah, it's kind of a different thing.
00:13:06.000The track is interesting too in the sense that you're essentially making that same exact motion the whole way.
00:13:14.000So like there's certain areas of your body that fatigue and they don't get a break.
00:13:21.000Like running flat, you're going to kind of localize some of the way you stimulate your muscles or your gait is going to be pretty similar throughout.
00:13:27.000Whereas when you're on the trails, like you might be going on a slight incline, a steep incline, a slight decline, a little bit of flat, some rolling, all kinds of things in between.
00:13:35.000And then trails can be kind of undulating.
00:13:37.000So you're just kind of moving all that forces around your legs a little more than you would be when you're running on a flat surface.
00:13:43.000So, you know, it's one of the things that I always tell like my coaching clients and myself when I'm planning for something is like, if you really want to meet your full potential, like specificity is king.
00:13:52.000You need to be on that environment in the environment you're going to race on and really get your body used to kind of that type of emotion.
00:14:00.000It makes it a little more interesting when you're doing a track race because that means some kind of long runs on a track.
00:14:05.000So you're kind of balancing doing just enough to get ready for it and not doing too much so that when you get to the race, you're like, screw this.
00:14:15.000That's kind of an interesting concept.
00:14:18.000It's interesting to me, too, that if you're planning to run 100 miles, like what you were saying about running these shorter races as a training run, which makes sense because how else are you going to prepare for 100 miles?
00:14:28.000If you just decided to just go out and run 100 miles, you'd have to map it out.
00:14:38.000Yeah, and then people also kind of forget about the aspect of just all the stuff surrounding the race that you can kind of fine tune when you're doing a race as a kind of training run where usually you're going to travel a little bit for stuff like this.
00:14:52.000So you're probably going to stay in a hotel the night before.
00:14:55.000You have to wake up early in the morning.
00:14:59.000So it's kind of like going through that.
00:15:11.000What's different between you and a lot of guys, and this is one of the reasons why I wanted to talk to you about this, is that you are on a fat burning diet.
00:15:19.000You're essentially on a ketogenic diet and running these races.
00:15:23.000Yeah, you know, it's a little interesting because the way I kind of, at least the way I came into it, like I explored the ketogenic diet mainly because I started noticing some things.
00:15:37.000So I started kind of exploring the ketogenic diet back in late 2011 because I started noticing some goofy things going on with my body from the high level of training and then the racing.
00:15:50.000And that was right around that same time I did those 350 milers in nine weeks.
00:15:54.000I would wake up like three or four times at night and then like I'd have to like pee all the time at night and I'd have like swelling in my ankles and stuff a lot of just like huge energy swings throughout the day like I would you know I was I was a teacher at the time so I remember thinking like every day at like one or two o'clock I could have laid down and take a nap on spot if I had had the opportunity to so it was just like a lot of weird things that I thought was pretty abnormal for a 25 year old male at the time and And
00:16:25.000so it was kind of becoming clear to me that what I was doing was either unsustainable or the way I was doing it was unsustainable.
00:16:31.000And, you know, I was really intrigued by the sport and I didn't really want to necessarily back off of that if I didn't have to.
00:16:38.000So that's when I kind of started to explore nutrition and diet and things like that.
00:16:43.000I was very much following what I would have considered a healthy diet before that at the time.
00:16:48.000It was high carbohydrate, but it was what you would think of as a healthy high carbohydrate diet.
00:17:08.000They say get your whole grains, fruits, vegetables, that sort of thing.
00:17:12.000I definitely focused heavily on that and made sure I wasn't eating junk food.
00:17:16.000I wasn't going through fast food restaurants or eating Oreos and bonbons and that sort of thing.
00:17:22.000So it was kind of interesting to me to think like, okay, I didn't really realize that it was necessarily the nutritional side of things.
00:17:31.000Like it wasn't like a big slap in the face in the sense that, oh, I just got to cut out the junk because like, according to most people, I wasn't eating junk.
00:17:41.000So, you know, that's when I kind of got introduced to some folks like Dr. Volek and Dr. Finney, who are kind of, I guess, the pioneers of like this latest wave of kind of the high-fat approach.
00:17:54.000And, you know, they were – I started reading their books, listening to podcasts and things like that.
00:18:00.000And, you know, it was interesting because I was training upwards of 20 hours a week at the time.
00:18:04.000And, you know, I started kind of thinking like – How much time am I going to invest in just running?
00:18:11.000How can I kind of kill two birds with one stone?
00:18:13.000And that's kind of when I discovered podcasts and thought, this is sweet.
00:18:17.000I can learn something and train at the same time.
00:18:19.000And so I just kind of went all in on listening to a bunch of podcasts and stuff like that.
00:18:24.000And actually, one of your previous guests, Ben Greenfield, was one of the first podcasts I really kind of did a deep dive into.
00:18:52.000But yeah, he definitely had a lot of info from guys like Dr. Finney and Dr. Volek, and I was lucky to meet those guys too on a couple occasions.
00:19:00.000And with Dr. Volek, I've done some podcasts with him and certainly exchanged emails and stuff when I've had questions.
00:19:26.000I thought for sure that something I was doing was wrong.
00:19:30.000Did you get your blood work done, check your hormone levels, all that stuff?
00:19:33.000Yeah, you know, I didn't have probably as much blood work done as I would have liked to, to really, like, look at stuff and see.
00:19:40.000Like, the way I look at blood work is if you're doing it regular, like, often enough and not changing things, that's what you're going to see the most, because you're going to see changes, versus just like, oh, I'm chronically low in this, or I'm always low in this, but it doesn't seem to be an issue.
00:19:54.000But, you know, there was no big red flags on my blood work.
00:19:57.000Like, nothing that would have said, like, Thyroid disease or something like that.
00:20:27.000Terrified that I'd find out it wasn't and then I would have to stop running as much.
00:20:30.000And at the time I was like, that doesn't sound like what I want to do.
00:20:34.000So this was just something I decided to explore first.
00:20:38.000And it's really goofy because I've certainly evolved in kind of how I use it from that when I first started.
00:20:46.000When I first started, I went really low carb, like that clinical ketosis level where you read about where there are like 50 grams of carbohydrates or less.
00:20:55.000I did that for about, I think it was like four to six weeks, and I didn't have as hard of a time as what I think I've seen some people have with it.
00:21:04.000You have people talking about everything from the keto flu to just feeling really lethargic for a while before that kind of metabolic switch flips.
00:21:12.000What I kind of noticed was I felt really good doing like really like low-level type mundane tasks, just like day-to-day work and things like that.
00:21:22.000But like maybe every second or third day I'd go for a run and just feel awful.
00:21:27.000And I kind of knew enough about it that I thought, okay, let's give this a solid four weeks before I make any judgments on whether that's going to be something that sticks around or not.
00:21:38.000And, you know, after about that point, my energy level is kind of normalized.
00:21:42.000And then, you know, I was so at that point, I was like excited.
00:21:46.000I should have mentioned to like, during that process, I started sleeping through the night again, which was like, kind of really an eye opening thing for me.
00:21:56.000Because usually, like, I'd wake up at least three times.
00:22:03.000But, you know, it could be anything from just the amount of stress I was causing on my body from kind of two angles from the training plus like, you know, like, I don't want to demonize carbohydrates because I think they have a place.
00:22:46.000All I know is the only thing at that time I changed was my diet.
00:22:49.000And we should probably point out that this is not universal.
00:22:52.000That everybody's diet is going to affect them differently.
00:22:55.000Some people are fine with carbohydrates.
00:22:57.000There's a lot of people out there that eat a high-carbohydrate diet and they have zero issues with it whatsoever.
00:23:03.000And that's one of the weirder things about people.
00:23:05.000That we are so variable, depending upon your ancestry, what part of the world they evolved in.
00:23:11.000Yeah, it's fascinating to me because I'll look at folks doing the complete opposite of who I am and they're doing just fine.
00:23:18.000Then I'll look at some folks, too, that are doing the opposite of me and they're doing just fine for a while and then they ultimately start noticing the same kind of things I did and then they can clean it up.
00:23:30.000I think at the end of the day, you just got to be kind of honest with yourself.
00:23:37.000And they can hit their body with that high octane fuel, carbohydrate, like day in and day out at a high level and it doesn't seem to bother them much.
00:23:46.000But, you know, other people I think just that it can kind of, it's like playing with rocket fuel a little bit where, you know, a little bit can be great and too much of it can kind of burn you up a little bit.
00:23:55.000So you're saying that you started off at like 50 grams of carbohydrates a day, like real strict ketosis diet.
00:24:34.000It was a lot more difficult to go out and really throttle down.
00:24:37.000I could run all day at a slow pace, but if I decided to go out on the track and do 400-meter repeats at a really fast pace, it was really hard to be able to do that.
00:25:21.000This is one thing I've always been curious about, too.
00:25:24.000I'm not trying to come on here and say everyone should switch to doing what I do.
00:25:29.000I think you should follow your own personal self and be honest with yourself.
00:25:34.000If you feel great, do what you're doing.
00:25:35.000If you don't, then probably look to change something.
00:25:38.000But one thing I'm always looking at now or suspecting is that it's more about the recovery between efforts than it is about the intensity of the effort or the duration of the effort in terms of how much carbs you need to bring back or want to bring back.
00:25:52.000Because I've also had circumstances where I'll do a big workout or a race or something like that, and then I'll go really easy for a week.
00:26:01.000And during that week, I'll go like super strict keto because I'm recovering.
00:26:25.000Yeah, and I actually think it's when you're doubling down on those on a regular basis.
00:26:30.000So if you're working out really hard for 45 minutes to an hour a day, I think you can probably get away with almost a ketogenic or a really low-carbohydrate approach because you're giving yourself 23-plus hours between sessions for your body to restock glycogen stores from other areas,
00:26:46.000from fat and proteins and things like that.
00:26:48.000I think when you start getting into a system where you're like myself, I'm doing two days a lot.
00:26:53.000And then sometimes one of those is a speed session.
00:26:56.000That's when I feel like I need to bring some of the carbohydrate back.
00:26:58.000And I think it's probably just to get some of the glycogen at a little faster rate because that is going to replenish your glycogen stores faster as a carbohydrate than like a fat or a protein probably would.
00:27:07.000So how many grams of carbohydrates a day would you have on a day like that?
00:27:11.000When I'm in like peak training, which is about 20 hours a week of running strength training and mobility type stuff, you know, I'll probably let myself get up to like 15 to 25% of my intake from carbohydrate.
00:28:22.000I think they've gotten a lot better with it.
00:28:24.000But what I did is I actually measured my blood ketone and then I would use that and I tried to find kind of like if mine was matching what that thing would say.
00:28:33.000So I kind of had an idea where certain ranges on that thing would kind of indicate whether I was in ketosis or not.
00:28:42.000So, like, I very much was coming out of ketosis during peak training.
00:28:45.000Like, especially when I would get up to 200-300 grams of carbohydrate, I would come out of ketosis, and I'd probably go back into ketosis throughout that phase.
00:28:54.000When you say go back in and come out, like, what kind of time period are you talking about?
00:29:01.000The time period was more indicative about what I kind of ate during it, too.
00:29:08.000If I did, or I shouldn't say what I, like how I kind of structured those 200 to 300 grams of carbohydrate, like if I did like a big bolus of it in one meal, I'd get back into ketosis a little quicker because then I wouldn't come back to the carbohydrates again for a while.
00:29:41.000So then when I get back from a run, it might be two hours, sometimes even three.
00:29:45.000And at that point, I just slept for eight to 10 hours.
00:29:49.000Then by the time I got done with my run, I hadn't I had essentially done a small intermittent fast for the most part.
00:29:57.000So even when I had the higher amounts of carbohydrates, I'd find myself going back into ketosis at the end of something like that sometimes.
00:30:05.000But really, to me, it wasn't necessarily a question of whether I was in ketosis or not, because that really wasn't important to me.
00:30:15.000And what I wanted out of this approach was...
00:30:19.000I wanted to be able to rely on my body to burn high levels of fat when I needed it to, but I also wanted to be metabolically flexible enough where if I needed to hit the gas pedal, I could do that as well.
00:30:33.000And I think that's where people get a little confused or up in arms or something because there's not a whole lot of studies that kind of...
00:30:43.000Can you do that or can you not do that?
00:30:44.000Some people think it's kind of an all or nothing thing where you either get really fat adapted or you get really carb dependent and then everything else is kind of like this gray area that you can't really get into.
00:31:02.000If I can go for like a four hour or even five hour run with no fuel other than water and electrolytes, then I'm fat adapted enough.
00:31:10.000I don't need to get any more fat adapted than that because I can eat during a race and everyone else is going to be.
00:31:15.000So I don't really need to get more fat adapted from a performance standpoint.
00:31:19.000So when I get to that point, then it's like, how many carbohydrates can I bring back to kind of give me that extra nudge or that extra fuel substrate?
00:31:28.000Have you ever tried mixing exogenous ketones with carbohydrates?
00:31:34.000Because Greenfield was talking about that, and he said it's like doing steroids.
00:32:57.000Here's my question is, with that stuff, from a performance standpoint, is people are looking at that kind of, I think, more like an electrolyte, where it's like I take this on top of my energy source, whereas that's actually an energy source, a fairly potent one,
00:33:20.000A certain amount so that I kind of keep that energy where I want it, but I'm also trying not to go overboard because I don't want digestive stress.
00:33:38.000Because, like, basically the way I... To simply put it, like, digestion requires blood volume, you know, to move into your gut and, like, digest the food.
00:33:47.000So when you're running, especially when it's hot, your body's also trying to use your blood volume for muscle function and cooling and things like that.
00:33:54.000So by kind of introducing another use for that blood volume, your body is running out of resources to kind of make all those things...
00:34:04.000Which is why a lot of times in ultramarathons people find out like they have the worst luck with like throwing up and stomach issues when it gets really hot out.
00:34:12.000Because their body's got to go double down on the cooling side of things with the blood volume and then it's like well something's got to give so it just pukes up everything you put in your stomach.
00:34:27.000So if you're running, what's a size portion?
00:34:30.000Say if you're doing a 100 miler and you have to pause for fuel.
00:34:36.000I'll typically aim for around 100 to 200 calories an hour when I'm doing a 100 miler.
00:34:41.000And to kind of put that in perspective, when I was high carb, I was aiming for 300, 400, and sometimes even 500 calories an hour.
00:34:50.000So when I kind of went into the approach where fat was my primary fuel source, the need for that carbohydrate essentially got cut in half, if not more.
00:34:59.000And for me, that's a win as long as energy levels are the same, because it means I have to eat less during the race.
00:35:04.000It's one less logistic thing, one less potential stomach issue.
00:35:13.000You know, I usually stick to, like, water-based stuff.
00:35:18.000So, like, I'll use a product called X Endurance Fuel 5. And it's essentially, like, a really, really high-level sports drink with, like, a varying – it's carbohydrate-based.
00:35:30.000And I can tell you why I use carbohydrates instead of fats during a race in a minute, too, if you want.
00:35:34.000But it's like five different types of kind of carbohydrate that release at varying points.
00:35:38.000So you get some that's kind of a little quick jolt and others that are more sustained like kind of like a sweet potato type of a release.
00:35:46.000So like if I'm doing like a hundred miler and let's say I'm aiming for like 30 to 40 ounces of water per hour to kind of stay on top of hydration, I'll put...
00:35:58.000You know, 100 to 200 calories worth of that stuff in that water.
00:36:02.000So then I'm kind of killing two birds with one stone and getting my fuel in as well as hydrating at the same time.
00:36:06.000And why are you taking carbohydrates while you're running instead of fats?
00:36:15.000I don't know if it's an issue necessarily, but it's an interesting thing at the very least.
00:36:19.000When I talk to folks who are really into the high-fat approach, some of them are zero-carb or really ketogenic all the time, 24-7, they'll be taking in fat sources during a race.
00:36:31.000And I've never understood that, just because...
00:36:36.000When you look at your body's energy systems during a race, like you have your glycogen stores and then you have body fat.
00:36:43.000And I think a lot of people kind of get misled and they think, oh, I'm a really lean runner, so I can't rely on body fat.
00:36:49.000When in reality, even the leanest endurance athletes have enough body fat to get through an endurance race.
00:36:54.000Like even if you're 4%, 5% body fat at your leanest, that's a much bigger fuel source than your glycogen reserves.
00:37:01.000So, when I'm doing a race, I've got enough fat to take care of the fat metabolizing portion of that energy requirement for the race.
00:37:09.000What I might run out of is those glycogen stores, which are really small in comparison.
00:37:14.000So, I'm trying to just slowly trickle in the sugar or the carbohydrate.
00:37:19.000During a race, just enough to kind of keep my glycogen stores where I want to be so I can hit the gas if I need to, but not at the level where it's going to cause stomach distress or compromise or heavily compromise my body's willingness or ability to burn fat either.
00:37:47.000Someone who's really fat-adapted, they could be running kind of the same effort, and the fat-adapted person might be burning 80% fat, 20% carbohydrate, and the carb-dependent person might be a 50-50 split.
00:37:58.000So that carb-dependent person is going to exhaust their glycogen stores a lot quicker, or they're going to have to fuel themselves at a much higher rate to make up for that deficit.
00:38:07.000And when you look at, like, how difficult that is, because, you know, some of these, especially some of these mountain races where you're running uphill, it's like you might be burning 800-plus calories an hour, and it's really hard.
00:38:18.000Yeah, that's a different animal, right?
00:38:19.000Yeah, and it's really hard to replace that on the fly.
00:38:23.000Yeah, those running uphill ones, I would think that's a much more difficult race.
00:38:30.000It's, you know, it's one of those things where I'm pretty new to that, actually.
00:38:34.000Like, most of my ultra running career, I focus more on flat stuff.
00:38:38.000And part of that just because I've lived in a lot of flat areas.
00:38:40.000And like I was kind of saying earlier, if you really want to nail a race, you have to be specific.
00:38:45.000So I learned kind of early, probably around like 2013 or so, that it was in my best interest to make my peak races flat ones if I really wanted to meet my full potential.
00:38:54.000Now I live in Phoenix, so I've got a lot more access to mountains.
00:38:57.000I can get on the trails and do some significant climbing right out my back door.
00:39:00.000So I've certainly been able to practice that more.
00:39:04.000And as I've gotten more competent at it, I do recognize like, oh, it's not quite as hard.
00:39:10.000As I thought it was originally because I was going into it essentially under-trained.
00:39:14.000Whereas now it's like I go into it and I'm like, oh, I'm more adjusted to this.
00:39:52.000I actually kind of like it because right now I'm training for the Western States 100. And that's in, it starts in Squaw Valley and ends in Auburn, California.
00:40:01.000And they go through like these four canyons that can get brutally hot, like 110 plus some years.
00:40:08.000Do you run with like a vest where you have water bottles attached to you or anything?
00:40:12.000Yeah, that stuff has come such a long way since I started the sport.
00:40:15.000I remember when I first started, it was pretty primitive type stuff.
00:40:19.000And now the sport is, I think through hiking plays a big role in this too, has gotten like...
00:40:24.000So popular or popular enough where now companies are really dialing that stuff in where you can get like a pack that just sits nice and snug on you and you can put water.
00:41:16.000I also work for one of my primary sponsors, Ultra Footwear.
00:41:21.000For me to be able to do the stuff for them that I was wanting to do, it made more sense to be in Phoenix.
00:41:27.000Like product testing and stuff like that?
00:41:29.000Yeah, that and just putting on small group runs and events and things like that in the area.
00:41:34.000If I wanted to appropriately handle the territory, Phoenix made a lot more sense than Sacramento.
00:41:41.000Northern California has just grown so much for that company in the last couple of years that they needed to get someone in there who was going to do full-time plus to really cover the area.
00:41:50.000And then I also got engaged in January as well.
00:41:54.000So my fiance, she was best served being in the Phoenix area too.
00:42:53.000She works for a company called Towers Watson and manages the Midwest division for stuff.
00:43:03.000So she'll be on a conference call with Amazon and then You know, go out and run three hours after that and then come back and get on another conference call and just keeps going and going and going.
00:43:11.000So, yeah, it's, you know, it made sense for her job and my job to kind of be in Phoenix.
00:43:18.000And with as busy as she is and as busy as I can get from time to time, like, it's nice to be able to go out your backyard and be on the trail five minutes later.
00:43:26.000Whereas both of us didn't have that before.
00:43:27.000We both had to drive to get to any kind of trail, especially her.
00:43:30.000Dallas, it was a lot of just, like, flat road running in her area.
00:43:37.000Well, and that's what is impressive with, like, so she's done Western States a few times, the race I was telling her before with the Canyons, and she's been sixth place there twice, just training on flat roads, basically.
00:43:50.000Does she do anything to augment that, like doing lunges or anything like that?
00:43:54.000Uh, she does, uh, some strength work and stuff, but really, you know, a lot of it was just, you know, she would go out and run and run a lot.
00:44:02.000And then I'm sure like she hasn't met her full potential at that specific event or certainly like mountain type races just because she wasn't trained in mountains, right?
00:44:12.000She was a Division I recruit for college and stuff back in the day, so she's got some running talent, no doubt.
00:44:19.000And then she puts in the work, because consistency is a huge thing.
00:44:22.000If you can't find the specific stuff and you're really geeked about a specific race, I don't think not having the right training environment is a reason to not do it if you're excited to do it.
00:44:31.000So for her, she was more excited to get out on the trails than she was to go do something on a track or a flat road like I was.
00:44:38.000So for her, it was like, even if I'm not quite where I would like to be, I'm going to do it anyway.
00:44:44.000Now, I'm not familiar with ultra footwear, but what I wanted to ask you is, does anybody wear minimalist shoes and run these ultra marathons?
00:44:53.000Yeah, there was actually a gal, I cannot remember her name, this was a couple years ago, who ran ultras in those Vibrant Five Fingers.
00:45:09.000It's hard to run just a couple miles in those things.
00:45:11.000Yeah, and it's, you know, it's interesting because, so Ultra Footwear made this shoe this last year called the Vanish, and it's essentially a minimalist shoe.
00:45:21.000Just like a little bit of fabric on the top, super hard, flat base, and that's kind of what I like when I'm on a road or a track.
00:46:09.000There's a carbon fiber plate, and you see where that little cut is in there?
00:46:13.000There's a carbon fiber plate in there that makes it a little more firm.
00:46:16.000So what I'm looking for in a shoe, when I'm looking for that natural feel, is something that's got a firm midsole or a firm durometer, because I don't want to squish down into the shoe.
00:47:00.000Yeah, you know, I read that and I was like, this is intriguing, you know, and it made a lot of sense too.
00:47:05.000It's like, you know, if we were meant to have a wedge on our heel, like, we would have had a wedge on our heel.
00:47:12.000Yeah, no, that's a ridiculous thing that Nike came up with and it's really unfortunate that so many people have adopted that and they run heel first like that.
00:47:20.000Yeah, well, and the problem, I think, too, is that, like, a shoe is essentially a cast for your foot.
00:47:27.000Even that Vanish that I had up there, that's a little cast compared to what you're normally going to see, but it's still a cast.
00:47:32.000That's why I like those five fingers, because there's nothing.
00:47:35.000There's just a very, very flexible piece of rubber underneath, and it's a glove for your feet.
00:47:42.000And, you know, people just don't know that I think that you can really work those foot muscles to a point where you can exhaust them the way you would in a shoe.
00:47:50.000It just takes a lot of time because, like, if I broke my arm and put a cast on it and then, like, six, eight weeks later got the cast taken off, I went back in the weight room and did a normal routine, I would be wrecked the next day.
00:48:01.000So when you take your foot out of that shoe cast you have it in or take it out of the position it's gotten used to and put it in a different position, it's like taking a cast off and trying to do that full mode of training or motion.
00:48:14.000So when I first kind of got into ultra running, I worked my way down to a minimalist shoe.
00:48:21.000I spent probably six months before I was running exclusively in something that was really minimalist.
00:48:28.000And when I say minimalist, I mean zero drop and no cushion or little to no cushion.
00:48:33.000Because I think some people confuse that too.
00:48:35.000Like the shoe you saw up there, because you're like, oh, it looks like it's got a little bit of padding there.
00:48:39.000So that's like zero drop with cushioning.
00:48:41.000Or that shoe really doesn't have a lot of cushioning.
00:48:43.000But there are shoes that Ultra makes that does.
00:48:46.000And what that does is it takes you from like, the way I describe it, this is someone in like a, Someone in a traditional running shoe, real built up, cushioned, a lot of support is on one end of the spectrum.
00:48:56.000Barefoot runner like those dudes that I ran into at the track, they're on the other end of the spectrum.
00:49:01.000There's all these steps in between to get to that.
00:49:05.000I can't believe people run ultras barefoot.
00:52:08.000I mean, that's one of the reasons why I'm fascinated by guys like you, these ultra runners, is because for the average person, that's an impossible feat.
00:52:24.000But guys like you have adapted your body to this position where you know you can do that, and it's just a matter of putting in the training runs and making sure you're fueling up correctly.
00:52:36.000A 100-mile race is not a question whether or not you can do it.
00:53:00.000So what's a typical thing that goes wrong?
00:53:02.000You know, I think a lot of people will have, like, cramping or they'll bonk.
00:53:08.000I mean, this is one of the reasons why I love the high-fat approach is because, like, bonking from the, like, energy side of things is essentially non-existent.
00:53:15.000Explain bonking to people who don't know what you're talking about.
00:53:16.000So bonking is essentially what happens, and I think it's actually more common in the marathon just because people are running a lot faster in those.
00:53:23.000But essentially what's happening is you're depleting your glycogen stores to the point where your body doesn't really have access to that fuel substrate anymore.
00:53:31.000And if you're not good at metabolizing fat or you cannot burn fat at a high rate at a decent clip, it grinds you to a halt.
00:53:40.000You see people staggering and falling over and losing their mind, hallucinating and stuff like that in those situations.
00:53:47.000So bonking is something that is an issue with ultramarathons because you're out there for so long.
00:53:53.000If you get behind on fueling, you could bonk and stuff like that.
00:53:58.000I talked about before, there's a lot of logistics with an ultramarathon, and these variables are just so prevalent when you're out there that long, that if you can eliminate some of those or reduce the potential of them flaring up, that's usually a win, because then there's less chance of something popping up that you wouldn't expect or an uncertain thing happening during the race.
00:56:54.000Yeah, it's a very sensitive subject for folks.
00:56:57.000Yeah, it's a running joke in the endurance running community though, because if you do it long enough, it's going to probably happen to you eventually.
00:57:38.000Well, this is where it gets fascinating with the lifestyle thing I was telling you about is like there's days during the year where like I'm in training where I'm metabolizing two to three times my resting metabolic rate.
00:57:47.000So I've got to feed myself appropriately for that.
00:58:18.000Yeah, there's a lot of talk lately about the carnivore diet.
00:58:21.000There's a lot of people that are delving into that, including Jordan Peterson's daughter, which is a really interesting case because she had severe autoimmune disorder.
00:58:31.000Like, she had some severe issues with, like, horrible arthritis, where she's had...
00:58:36.000I know she's had hip replacements, and I believe she's having an ankle replaced soon, too.
00:58:51.000I want to try to talk to her, maybe even get her in here, but I've never heard anything like that.
00:58:56.000I thought I heard somewhere, it was after the last time you had Jordan on, where he was telling you about how he just basically eats meats and greens.
00:59:03.000That was on his daughter's recommendation.
00:59:05.000Yeah, I think he's cut out all vegetables right now for at least a trial.
00:59:11.000But yeah, it's one of those things where I think like, it's like what I was saying before, like why I don't necessarily want people to say like, well, Zach is saying everyone should do exactly what he's doing and then, you know, they...
00:59:26.000I mean, to the point where, like, you have people like that, like, when I had, like, the issues I were having were incredibly minor compared to Jordan Peterson's daughter.
00:59:35.000Like, I mean, she's in a spot where, you know, she had to make changes if she wanted to even just probably do daily activities.
00:59:44.000And, you know, that's, I think, the hard part for people to kind of understand is, like, People are at different stages.
00:59:54.000So it's like this is something that's chipping away at people, and sometimes it chips away at them quicker, some people, and takes longer for others.
01:00:02.000So if you have an issue like that, it's like you almost have to go back to square one and say, give me a couple things that...
01:00:19.000We actually started recording some podcasts together.
01:00:22.000And we are having this gal come on who's been a carnivore for eight years.
01:00:26.000And she was kind of in that situation where she had a whole bunch of goofy things going on, even with the keto protocol, and she eventually just cut everything up with meat and has been doing great ever since.
01:00:36.000That's a vegan's nightmare, hearing things like that, like, no!
01:00:40.000I wish people could separate their ideology from the reality of certain people's bodies.
01:00:46.000And unfortunately, and this is very unfortunately, you You've got to separate also all the horrors that we associate with factory farming and all the other things that we associate with meat and meat consumption.
01:00:58.000Those things are real and terrible and absolutely should be avoided and absolutely factory farmers should be illegal.
01:01:04.000I think it's one of the great horrors of modern society.
01:01:27.000Yeah, you know, the thing that, like, I want a vegan to sit me down and explain to me is that, like, when I look at bioavailability of micronutrients, it's like you can't find much better than liver.
01:01:50.000Yeah, so like, it's like, I need that, like, I don't know, I'm sure there's ranges of what people can do in terms of absorbing something like a non-heme iron versus a heme iron, but like, for me, it's like, if my iron levels were low,
01:02:06.000the first thing I'm going to, I'm doubling down on liver.
01:02:37.000There's a lady who, I can't remember what she had.
01:02:43.000I'm not going to think of it, but if I do, I'll remember.
01:02:45.000But she did pretty much the same thing.
01:02:47.000But some people are fine with a vegan diet, too.
01:02:49.000That's the other thing that's important to point out.
01:02:51.000It might not be the best for them in terms of bioavailability of nutrients, but it's certainly better than the standard Western diet, standard American diet.
01:03:01.000But for some people, they can get by with it and not have any issues.
01:03:04.000Well, and some people get away with even more.
01:04:57.000Yeah, I know what you're talking about.
01:04:58.000So, like, you have everything from a 50 kilometer that's got over 10,000 feet of climbing and descending to a six-day event on a track, and they're all the same sport.
01:05:05.000When you look at, like, people who can kind of do really well at all of them, or in Courtney's case, really well at all of them, you can't find a better female, on the female side of things, someone who can do it better than that.
01:07:36.000Yeah, he's interesting, because, I mean, his parents were, like, mountaineers, I think, and, like, so he was, like, basically playing in the mountains at, like, age three and basically grew up doing this stuff, so...
01:09:23.000So he's a fun dude to follow for sure.
01:09:26.000But yeah, when you look at some of the races that are kind of the big races, like Western States 100 is the most competitive 100 miler in the United States, and Ultra Trail Mount Blanc, which is actually by Chamonix where you saw that video, is probably, at least last year, was the most competitive in the world.
01:09:44.000Those are the races I like to look at to kind of see where the divergence is from the males and the females.
01:09:49.000And if you look at course records and winning times, the men are finishing two plus hours ahead of the women on a pretty regular basis on that type of stuff.
01:10:00.000At Ultra Trail, Mount Blanc, sometimes it's four or five hours.
01:10:05.000It actually is more in line with what you see with other endurance distances, like marathons and stuff like that.
01:10:12.000The crazy thing about it, though, is...
01:10:35.000Finishing place for a woman other than this other lady named Ann Tracen, who she doesn't really race anymore, but she's kind of like the legend of the sport from the women, where she's won Western States like 14 times and had like 20 world records at one point and stuff like that.
01:10:52.000But Nikki Kimball, she finished third and part of it was because that was like the hottest year in the Canyons on record.
01:10:57.000And if women do, one thing I'm pretty confident women do better at these 100 miles than men is they're not nearly as stupid.
01:11:04.000Like the men will go out and like if it's competitive...
01:11:09.000It takes one or two guys to kind of run a little too fast and he's going to bring five, six, seven guys with him.
01:11:15.000And then it's actually a fascinating racing concept, I think, because then it's like, if you're watching it, you're like, okay, one of these guys is going to have the race of his life and hold on for dear life and run a spectacular time.
01:11:27.000Everyone else is going to blow up epically.
01:11:48.000And it's really easy to do at 100 plus miles because really at the end of the day, like if you feel comfortable at the start, you're probably going too fast.
01:11:55.000Now, how do you pace yourself in something like that?
01:12:18.000Yeah, Rich Roll was talking about that.
01:12:19.000He was saying that he tries to stay under 140 or in the 140 range.
01:12:24.000Yeah, and the thing about heart rate that I... Where I kind of deviate from heart rate is when you start getting into these really long events that go past like two or three hours, heart rate starts losing its value in terms of being able to trust it as like a metric that's going to tell you to do the right thing.
01:12:38.000Like there's so many things that can kind of disrupt that from like dehydration to just cardiac drift.
01:12:45.000So I think if an athlete really has things dialed in, they can use heart rate in training and they can look at heart rate if they want, but they also need to connect that with perceived effort so that if something goes wrong with that or issues start coming up with the heart rate side of things, they can still kind of reflect back in on themselves like,
01:13:03.000okay, this is a sustainable pace for me or this is not a sustainable pace for me.
01:13:06.000Rich Roe, we should point out, is a vegan.
01:13:09.000He's one of the few guys that is fully functional, has no issues at all keeping that diet up.
01:13:19.000I mean, you really have to be just super dedicated to making sure you're getting the proper amount of nutrients, making sure you're getting microalgae and all the different forms of B12. Yeah, yeah.
01:13:29.000And whenever someone comes to me and says, like, I'm a vegan or I'm a vegetarian or something like that, it's like, who should I look to?
01:14:25.000Because a lot of fast guys and gals have moved into this sport in the last 5-10 years.
01:14:29.000So it's been just deeper talent pool, more likely to get a complete genetic freak.
01:14:36.000And the other thing too is a lot of times what you have is you get competitive enough in a sport, then people start playing with fire and training.
01:14:46.000And they're doing it because they know they have to get to their optimal best.
01:15:23.000I'll usually do about six to eight ultra marathons in a year.
01:15:25.000And then the other ones are kind of like those training races that I talked about before.
01:15:28.000Or every once in a while I'll get invited to a race that's overseas and it's like a free trip to go to China or something like that.
01:15:36.000Well, speaking of hurting during a race, I know that a lot of ultra runners are utilizing CBD and even using edible marijuana while they run, and that they found that this is a great performance enhancing.
01:16:21.000Yeah, I think, you know, it's interesting because, like, you know, marijuana use, I'm not sure about CBD, but marijuana use is, like, is illegal in competition.
01:17:41.000I doubt they're doing like blood transfusion things like Tour de France style because I mean that's an expensive hard thing to kind of put together.
01:17:48.000You need a doctor essentially if I'm understanding it all right.
01:17:50.000So they're probably just doing little like minor things like maybe like peptides or something like that would be my guess.
01:17:57.000But I also do think it's not nearly like people I think nowadays like with Icarus and all that stuff like now people are on the opposite side of what they were a few years ago where they suspect everyone's doing it.
01:18:12.000They haven't gotten caught yet, which is where we were probably a few years ago.
01:18:15.000In ultra running, I think the culture plays a huge role in that.
01:18:18.000I mean, when you had Lance on, I think he was pretty good about talking about how you come into the sport, you go over to Europe to race, and they ask you to get on a protocol.
01:18:45.000Because it's a mind thing, almost more than anything, which is why people like Courtney, who aren't maybe the fastest marathon runners, but have this just bulletproof mind that allows them to compete.
01:18:57.000And that you really, there's no supplement for your mind, for willpower.
01:19:25.000I typed both of those in yet, but it was Guardian case.
01:19:27.000Stone marathon runners may seem like walking contradictions, but there are hints that the drug and long-distance running could go hand in hand.
01:19:57.000Yeah, Avery Collins is, you know, he's interesting because he's a spokesperson for marijuana use and, you know, You don't have to look far into marijuana and how it got to be where it is in terms of its legality or illegality to recognize there's some tomfoolery going on there.
01:20:17.000I mean, you don't have to be a historian to find out...
01:20:20.000Why that's criminalized, whereas alcohol isn't, and that sort of thing.
01:20:25.000And Avery's been a pretty big proponent about destigmatizing it.
01:20:31.000But he understands that it's illegal in competition, and I think he's been tested at least twice after races.
01:20:40.000I mean, he was sixth at Western States last year, so he had gotten tested for that.
01:20:48.000I think at a certain level, I think it is, although they may have just removed it.
01:20:51.000I'm trying to remember if I saw that right.
01:20:52.000But it used to be like you can have caffeine, but at a certain level it would be illegal, but it was like the equivalent of like 16 cups of coffee or something like that.
01:21:01.000So you'd have to put down like four of those nitros or six of those nitros right before your race if you wanted any chance of going over that.
01:21:09.000And you'd probably go into cardiac arrest before then.
01:21:16.000I actually, this is diverging a little bit, but I read a story a while ago that there was some high school kid who was playing football and he like slammed a Red Bull or some, one of those like high caffeine energy drinks and then like was like on the kick return team or something and returned a kick for a touchdown and was just jacked out of his mind,
01:21:35.000slammed another one and then went back on the field and had a heart attack or something.
01:21:38.000I'm sure it could happen if you go too hard.
01:23:45.000That product I was talking about before, the X Endurance Fuel 5, they make one with a little bit of caffeine in it too.
01:23:50.000So now I'll usually, if I want caffeine, I'll just use that instead of the non-caffeinated one.
01:23:54.000But then I'll do, like, you know, I'll still sometimes do a little bit of soda, especially at the end of the race, just to kind of change things up a little bit.
01:24:01.000Because that's the other thing, too, is, like, if you do the same thing, you know, after a while, it's like, just give me something different.
01:24:07.000Yeah, well, I know Floyd Mayweather drinks soda after he works out.
01:24:40.000There was a whole article about it recently.
01:24:42.000But I think that the fueling up with really heavy sugary drinks after a very hard workout, it's not a bad idea to replenish the glycogen in your muscles.
01:24:54.000I think like, I think the science is pretty clear if you're on a high carbohydrate or at least a higher carbohydrate diet that, you know, carbohydrate and protein within like, you know, 30-45 minutes of the post-workout is going to be in your best interest.
01:25:07.000A lot of people like chocolate milk for that, right?
01:25:10.000Yeah, that's gotten kind of like labeled as that perfect ratio.
01:25:18.000Where it's not clear, or at least it's getting clearer, is like where the variance there is for someone like myself who's following a high-fat approach.
01:25:27.000And we had a little bit of a glimpse into it from some studies.
01:25:31.000And the interesting thing is what they did this one study called a FASTER study.
01:25:36.000And it looked at like it was 10 guys who were on a high fat diet and 10 guys who were on a high carbohydrate diet.
01:25:43.000And, um, the guys on the, they try to pair them up as twins.
01:25:47.000So like similar, like performance achievements, uh, similar like body metrics, and then kind of compare the two in the, the high fat cohort actually, when they finished the, one of the workouts was a three hour treadmill session.
01:25:59.000And then they were, they taken like blood tests and stuff and they had like the oxygen mask and things like throughout the course of it.
01:26:06.000And they tested things before or after, um, And one thing they saw was, like, the high-fat folks actually had this kind of big, like, surge of glucose in the bloodstream post-workout.
01:26:18.000So the thought is, like, you might not want to double down on that if you're in a fat-adapted state because, like, I mean, some of the levels...
01:26:28.000It would have been, like, this is something I'd like to ask Dr. Atiyah about, is that, like, you get these big...
01:26:35.000Kind of post-workout, like, blood glucose spikes, sometimes to the level of, like, what would look like a type 2 diabetic.
01:26:43.000But it's in a different context than what you would see in someone who's just, like, following a normal diet, where that would be kind of a red flag.
01:26:50.000And so, like, to hit the body with another source of glucose, essentially, might not be affecting you the same way.
01:27:02.000So, like, it's actually, like, what I've done sometimes, too, is after a big, hard workout, if I'm not hungry, I don't always eat right away.
01:27:08.000I wait for my stomach to come around and, like, my body to say, you're hungry, just to let all that stuff kind of go through and then I'll have, depending on what I'm doing next, like, if I'm taking an easy day or a couple easy days, I'll go, like, really low carb.
01:27:22.000But if I'm going back out that afternoon for another workout or the next morning for, like, a speed session or something like that, that's when maybe I would...
01:27:29.000Try to drop in a little bit of carbohydrate to kind of speed up the glycogen side of things.