In this episode, we talk about the new film "Free Solo" and what it means to be a free soloist. We also discuss the dangers of free soloing, how to deal with them, and how to prepare for them. We also talk about what it's like touring with the film and answering questions from the audience, as well as some of our thoughts on the film itself. We hope you enjoy this episode and that it gives you a new appreciation for the incredible work that goes into making a film like this possible. If you like what you hear, please consider becoming a patron patron patron of the podcast and/or leave us a rating and review on Apple Podcasts, too! Thank you so much for all your support and stay tuned for more episodes in the future! Cheers! -Jon Sorrentino Music: "Space Junk" - "Goodbye Outer Space" by Fountains of Wayne Art: "Outer Space Warning" by Jeff Kaale - "The White Noise" by Kevin McLeod (Music: "Incomptech" by John Kimbrough & "Solo" by Ian McKirdy and "Inner Space Warning: "The Dark Side Of" by Mark Phillips we cover the new music video "The Other Side" by "The Good Fight" by The Good Fight Club (feat. & The Bad Fight) of the Good Fight Crew, "The Bad Fight Club. , , and "We Don't Talk About It (featuring the Bad Fight Crew) . , "We Can't Fight Like That" by , we're Too Effort, featuring the band "We're Not Good Enough" and "We'll See You, We're Not Strong Enough" by Don't Know How To Fight Like This" - "Outro Music: by The Bad Guy" by Squeals, "Feat. - The Good, We'll Get Over It" by the Good, Not Too Good, we're Not Bad, We Don't Have a Good Day, - We'll Talk About That's Good Enough, We Can't Stop This, We've Got It, We Won't Stop We'll Be Better Than This, We'll Figure It Out How To Deal With It, and more! and we'll Get Better Next Week!
00:00:33.000It's funny, touring with the film, we've been doing Q&As every night, you get the same questions from the audience all the time.
00:00:38.000And part of that is tiring, but then part of it, people ask the same questions because they're obvious, because everybody wants to know the same things, and I'm like, I understand that.
00:00:46.000One of the weirdest parts of the film is when they're showing all the guys who have died from free soloing.
00:00:54.000Yeah, though actually they didn't all die free soloing.
00:00:56.000That's probably the only thing that I take slight issue with with the film.
00:01:01.000It's slightly hyperbolic because two of them died base jumping and one of them died rope jumping.
00:01:05.000They all were free solos, which is kind of what the film is saying, that they're all free solos who have died.
00:01:10.000But they all died in the mountains doing mountain-related extreme activities.
00:01:16.000Yeah, that doesn't make the story as good.
00:01:38.000No free soloist has ever died doing hard soloing.
00:01:41.000Basically, a few free soloists have died falling off an easy turn, or just falling off routine, or just falling off the mountain.
00:01:49.000But none of them have ever died while doing something cutting edge, something that had never been done before, or something that was hardcore.
00:01:55.000Do you think that's because when you're doing something that's a little bit easier, you relax?
00:02:00.000I think that's probably part of it, but also I think part of it is just a numbers thing.
00:02:04.000You spend so much time doing easy stuff and so little time doing really hard stuff that, you know, it's just statistics.
00:02:12.000How important is it when you're free soloing to have that edge, to be really cognizant about how intense this is?
00:02:21.000Like, if you got too calm and too relaxed, No, I think that is kind of the concern, for sure.
00:02:26.000And I've noticed that for myself, anyway.
00:02:29.000And I try not to do very much easy sawing anymore, because there is a certain complacency that over time, you know, you just do so much mileage on easy terrain, and then you're like, this is so easy, this is so easy, and then you slip and you die.
00:02:57.000Well, the difference between a fighter, say, when they're not trained and not in camp and just their skill and what their body can do without going through a camp, It's probably only like 70% of what they are when they actually go through everything with full intensity,
00:03:15.000eight weeks, two times a day, you know, physical therapy, massage, visualization, conditioning, all the things that make them who they are the day they step into the cage.
00:03:55.000Well, so for me anyway, it was always sort of the opposite, because the real challenge of free soloing is the psychological side, the mental side of it.
00:04:02.000Like, I don't necessarily have to physically perform at the absolute limit of what I'm capable of, but I have to mentally perform at that level.
00:04:10.000And so, and the mental side of it comes so much from confidence and feeling, you know, feeling prepared.
00:04:17.000So when I, when I freestyle at El Cap, I kind of knew that I wasn't actually, um, like I'd probably already started to decline a little bit physically over the course of the season because the two months in Yosemite is just kind of grueling on your body.
00:04:27.000Like all the time I spent going up and down on the wall and preparing, it's very, very tiring.
00:04:32.000And so I kind of realized that I was starting to get sort of deeply fatigued.
00:04:35.000You know, I was sort of a week away from like having started a slump of like, oh, I'm kind of pooped.
00:04:40.000But the thing is, I knew that because of all that preparation, you know, psychologically I was as good as I was ever going to be.
00:04:46.000So even if I was physically starting to be a little bit tired, it's like time to, you know, it's kind of the different curves.
00:04:52.000You have to hit it right at the right moment.
00:04:54.000Now, is your psychological preparation just you getting your mind into it?
00:04:59.000Or do you have like specific techniques you use or a form of meditation or anything that you specifically concentrate on when you're visualizing success or...
00:05:53.000Have you ever gone to, like, a sports psychologist, or have you ever, like, actively tried to coordinate a program for mental training or anything like that?
00:06:07.000I mean, so with free-selling El Cap, I found that I needed to create enough space for, it's not so much mental training, but create enough empty time so that I was able to sort of process.
00:06:21.000So I stopped responding to email, I erased my social media, it sort of freed up my life.
00:06:27.000And then actually my girlfriend left for sort of the week ahead of time so that I was just totally by myself in my van with nothing going on, like no distractions.
00:06:34.000And so that's not exactly, you know, mental training, but it was giving myself the free time that I could just sit around and think about things, you know, I could process like it in my own terms at my own time.
00:06:54.000I think it was like 2012 or something.
00:06:55.000During that time, how much has changed in your life in terms of the way people perceive what you do and the amount of attention that you get?
00:07:03.000I would imagine that having that alone time now...
00:07:33.000I appreciate all the opportunities I have now.
00:07:36.000I'm very happy with the way my life has changed over time, but certainly when I look back at 10 or 12 years ago when I was just a single 20-year-old man living in a car, I had nothing going on.
00:07:49.000If I had one interview in a month, I'd be like, well, it's a big month for media.
00:07:53.000And then now on a film tour, it's completely outrageous.
00:07:56.000It's totally the other end of the spectrum.
00:07:59.000Now, when you're doing this film tour, when does the film actually come out?
00:08:07.000So it did a month of festival circuiting, you know, earlier in the end of the summer, and then it came out in theaters at the end of September.
00:08:16.000So it's right now, I think this weekend is its widest release.
00:08:19.000It's like 400 theaters all over the country right now.
00:08:22.000And then, in theory, it's through National Geographic, so I think it'll be on television on the channel at some point, and then eventually it'll stream somewhere.
00:09:15.000Yeah, because it should be sort of meditative and relaxing and quiet, but then obviously you're also sometimes straining your entire body, you know, like trying very hard physically.
00:09:26.000Well, I remember one of the things you said to me the last time we talked was that it's very mellow because if it ever gets intense, something's gone horribly wrong.
00:09:36.000No, I still feel exactly the same way.
00:09:40.000Yeah, that's always the challenge is to keep it relaxed.
00:09:44.000But for a guy like you, my perception of a guy like you, who's that person who's doing that activity, then to sort of juxtapose that with this media tour type environment and dealing with all these people,
00:10:01.000that seems to me like it would be really annoying.
00:10:05.000I mean, yeah, it's very different than my normal lifestyle, I guess.
00:10:09.000But the thing is, you know, it's sort of an adventure, and it's an experience in its own way.
00:10:13.000I've been kind of calling it an expedition film tour, because I've done a lot of expeditions in my life.
00:10:18.000Like last winter, I went to Antarctica for a month, and it's not exactly the type of climbing I normally do, and I don't really like being cold.
00:10:24.000But you're sort of like, oh, it is a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to go somewhere.
00:10:27.000You know, it was like going to Mars or something.
00:10:28.000It was this totally outrageous experience.
00:10:30.000We're climbing big rock walls in Antarctica.
00:10:32.000You're just living on the glacier, and it's totally different, totally crazy.
00:11:18.000Some people had climbed in the region before, but we actually did tons of first ascents, like routes and summits that had never been climbed.
00:11:31.000I mean, well, not really, because, I mean, they're photos of the formations, and people, like I said, had climbed some of them.
00:11:38.000Some Norwegians had sort of pioneered the area and written a book about it.
00:11:41.000But then, it's not until you get there that you can really decide what you're going to climb and how it looks.
00:11:46.000I mean, ultimately, you have to look at the rock and see if it's climbable, and so you basically just have to ski up and then touch it and see what you can do and then try to climb it.
00:13:18.000And then also, I don't know, you know, when you're climbing cracks, you put your foot into the crack and then you torque it sideways to like lock it into place.
00:13:24.000And so the stiffer the shoe is, the more it can, you know, the more that you can lock the shoe into place as opposed to your foot.
00:13:31.000You basically have to use fewer muscles that way.
00:14:47.000Well, I think that's a very good way of describing it, a very good way of putting it, because I think you most certainly have influenced people in that regard.
00:14:54.000But I think also people must be influenced in the sense that they see what you're doing is, man, there's moments that you must experience while you are climbing these incredible faces.
00:16:43.000Yeah, whenever I go to Vegas, I always look at the mountains outside of it and like, wow, they're right there and nobody even looks at them.
00:16:49.000Yeah, from my driveway, you can see 2,000 foot walls.
00:16:52.000I mean, you can be climbing on a 2,000 foot wall in a 25 minute drive, 20 minute drive.
00:17:58.000I hate to say I'm getting old and everything, but I think, especially right now with the film tour, the amount of travel, I'm more intentional about my diet and stuff now and trying to get no sleep and things like that.
00:18:09.000Certainly, 10 years ago, I could just eat a whole tray of Oreos and be like, all right, I feel great.
00:18:38.000And I mean, even meat, so I mean, I gave up eating meat for environmental reasons mostly, like basically impact on the earth.
00:18:44.000And so I'm not fundamentally, you know, like I'll eat meat from time to time, certainly for cultural norms.
00:18:50.000Like, you know, I was in Japan earlier this year, and so I ate fish there a bit just because I felt like it was part of the sort of Japanese travel experience.
00:18:58.000If someone hunted it, would you eat it?
00:19:25.000Molluscs are actually a good thing for people to look into that are vegan or vegetarian and they don't want to eat meat because they're actually more primitive even than vegetables.
00:19:59.000But there's a protein to them that's similar to an animal protein, but an incredibly primitive protein.
00:20:05.000I mean, insect protein, I think, is sort of a potential future of humanity, too.
00:20:10.000I'm not fundamentally opposed to eating insects, but they're rarely served.
00:20:15.000But I would just imagine that, particularly as you get older, nutrition would be a major factor, making sure you get the proper amount of essential fatty acids and making sure that...
00:20:29.000You have to fuel your brain in terms of giving your...
00:20:34.000Your brain, the building blocks for neurotransmitters and all these different things that you're using when you've got this intense concentration for many, many hours at a time.
00:20:44.000And you're not eating when you're doing these things, right?
00:22:26.000We're wearing these belts that measure your heart rate and they also quantify your performance, like how much calories you've burned and...
00:23:04.000I kind of prefer that to gels or goo or whatever you want to call it because if that's just pure sugar, I'd kind of prefer to have pure fat.
00:23:11.000Certainly for climbing, it's just not like running or cycling or something where your engine is burning nonstop where you kind of need to just pump sugar into it.
00:23:28.000Nootropics are the building blocks for human neurotransmitters.
00:23:33.000It's like they're supplements that enhance cognitive function.
00:23:37.000Some of them are like standard, what you would get at like GNC. You wouldn't think of as a nootropic, but they're finding out they are, like creatine.
00:23:46.000They're finding out creatine is actually a pretty potent nootropic.
00:24:14.000And during his day, you know, obviously sustained a lot of head injuries and wanted to find some sort of a natural way to replenish his brain function.
00:24:24.000So he created this company called Neuro One.
00:24:27.000And this is how I found out about nootropics, is through his product.
00:24:48.000Well, AlphaBrain, my company, we had two double-blind placebo-controlled studies with the Boston Center for Memory that showed improvements in verbal memory, in reaction time, in peak alpha flow state.
00:26:21.000It's interesting because it's not like anyone's drug testing climbers unless they're competing at the World Cup level or it's actually gonna be in the Olympics in 2020. Climbing is?
00:26:36.000So World Cup climbing breaks into three disciplines.
00:26:39.000It's like lead climbing, which is like same as the indoor wall and then bouldering, which is shorter without a rope.
00:26:44.000You know, you just climb 12 feet or whatever.
00:26:46.000And then speed climbing, where it's like a preset course.
00:26:48.000Everyone does the exact same course, but you just go as fast as you can, just against the timer.
00:26:52.000And so normally those are three disciplines for the World Cup, but the Olympic format combines all three into one competition because they're limited by how many medals and whatever.
00:27:01.000Because it's like a demonstration sport, they're just sort of, you know, it's smaller scale than some of the other sports in the Olympics.
00:27:07.000But so, yeah, so basically climbing competitors just have to do all three disciplines and then see who wins.
00:27:13.000I was watching something on YouTube where they had this climbing competition where they, like, ready, set, go!
00:27:19.000And then they, like, shot up the side of this thing.
00:30:32.000But, I mean, I don't know if you'd want that, though, because the thing is, if you have an adrenaline spike, it's because something weird went on, and you probably want to.
00:30:38.000Like, I've had a couple times where I, like, broke a hold off or something, like, all of a sudden your hold rips off.
00:30:43.000And then you have that like superhuman surge of like and you grab back on.
00:30:47.000Yeah, you don't want to be mellow at that time.
00:31:13.000So, yeah, I mean, the idea makes sense that if you're going to fall off a cliff, have a parachute.
00:31:17.000The thing is that you need to be on a very specific kind of cliff, like what he was on, where it was overhanging, so that when he fell, he cleared the wall and he, like, floated out into space.
00:31:25.000But the thing is, in Yosemite, all the walls are slightly less than vertical, in general, and so it means that you just tumble down the wall.
00:31:32.000And the other thing is that even if you have a parachute, parachutes function as a wing.
00:31:38.000Air comes into them and you fly in a direction.
00:31:40.000Which means that you have to be facing away from the wall when you open your parachute.
00:31:43.000Or else you just fly right into the wall and crash.
00:31:46.000So it basically means that if you fall off unexpectedly, you then have to track away from the wall, right yourself in midair, correct for everything, and then make sure you're facing the right way.
00:31:56.000Basically there are a lot of things that have to go right for the parachute to help you.
00:32:34.000Let's just watch extreme sports videos and I'll just commentate on them the whole time.
00:32:38.000I'll just be like, alright, well this guy is surely gonna have a disaster.
00:32:42.000Well, one of the things from the video when they were talking about all the people that have died, that essentially everyone from the past that was a free soloer is dead.
00:32:53.000And you're saying there's other things that they were doing, like bass jumping?
00:33:15.000Actually, he's in Greece on a sport climbing vacation right now, just climbing for two months, just fun climbing with a rope, having a great time.
00:33:23.000I look at somebody like Peter, and he was free-soling at the very cutting edge for 20 years, basically, and is still just a happy climber now.
00:33:32.000But does he free solo anymore or just climbs?
00:33:57.000He was like, yeah, technically one of my hardest solos was just recently.
00:34:00.000But it's like a hard number, but not nearly as much of an undertaking as some of the big solos that he'd done in the past, like some of the walls that he'd soloed in Yosemite back in the day.
00:34:09.000You know, and so he was like, oh, it's all just kind of how you define difficulty, you know.
00:34:14.000Now, when you say that there's a number system that sort of rates what, like how difficult a free solo path is.
00:34:21.000Well, no, that rates climbing in general, with a rope or without a rope.
00:35:16.000And climbing culture, I guess, is a big part of Yosemite.
00:35:20.000Yeah, well, yeah, I mean, climbing as a sport in the U.S. is sort of birthed from Yosemite.
00:35:27.000I mean, the history of alpinism, or rock climbing anyway, certainly comes from Yosemite in the U.S. Is it just because the paths are so cool that it just drew people to it, or...?
00:36:01.000But anyway, so it winds up being called the 70-decimal system.
00:36:04.000But yeah, so basically it's categories of terrain.
00:36:08.000So one being walking on a normal trail, two being scrambling a little bit, three being scrambling with your hands and feet up rocks, and then fourth class being sort of like climbing but easier, and then fifth class being actual rock climbing.
00:36:21.000And so then, it was 5.1 through 9, depending on how hard things are.
00:36:27.000You know, so 5.1 being pretty easy, 5.9 being pretty hard, like you're rock climbing now, and it's technical.
00:36:32.000And then at a certain point, that system wasn't adequate, so they had to start adding, you know, 5.10, and then they subdivided into A, B, C, D, and then 5.11, A, B, C, D, and then 5.12.
00:36:43.000And so now it's an open-ended system that right now goes up to 5.16, basically.
00:37:22.000But so one guy, this Czech guy, has done one route that he called 15D. And so it hasn't been repeated, so it's not like an established consensus.
00:37:29.000But there are several 15Cs in the world, and there are many 15Bs in the world.
00:37:34.000Where is this 15D? It's in a cave in Norway.
00:37:41.000That's kind of the interesting thing about climbing grades and climbing difficulties is that they're all spread around the world, the very specific cliffs, because it requires just the right combination of angle and holds.
00:37:51.000There have to be enough things to hold on to, but not too many or else it's easier.
00:37:55.000And so for an elite climber, they're basically searching the world all the time trying to find that right mixture of rock.
00:38:07.000But it's also kind of elemental in a way, you know, because rocks are just out there and you're basically just going and exploring nature until you find the right kind of challenge.
00:38:16.000Well, yeah, there's some sort of a primal satisfaction that comes from climbing something, right?
00:38:21.000Yeah, there's an elemental quality, for sure, where you're like, this is something that just exists in the world, and you just...
00:42:27.000But with freestalling, you have to always keep it sort of within your comfort zone because you don't want to die doing it.
00:42:31.000So, I mean, I think that I've always sort of kept my personal, like on your personal barometer of effort, I sort of live between four and seven, let's say, or like, you know, three and a half and seven maybe, where it's like you're never too relaxed, but you're also never going to the absolute death.
00:42:47.000Or sort of like in the four to six is a sweet spot where you're like, oh, I'm climbing, I'm having a good time, but I'm not like trying too hard and I'm not too relaxed.
00:43:16.000In some ways, that's the more efficient way to climb because, you know, you're so relaxed most of the time that you're saving a lot of energy over all that.
00:43:22.000Every once in a while when you fall, it's like, who cares?
00:43:45.000Basically, every muscle in his body is relaxed except for his calf, and his calf is forcing his knee into the rock, which holds him in place.
00:43:50.000So he's just hanging there about one knee.
00:44:04.000No, I mean, for him, it's like, for him to be able to rest like that for one minute is an amazing way to rest your arms for a minute, but then it sort of saps your core and it makes his calf really tired, obviously.
00:44:12.000Now, does he lift weights or anything to prepare for these things?
00:44:39.000There's a climbing wall at this local kid's place, and I told my daughter I'd give her $100 so she could make it all the way to the other side.
00:45:04.000I bet if you tried a bit, just because you have such a background in movement and fitness and everything, I bet it wouldn't be that hard for you.
00:45:11.000Yeah, I'm pretty heavy though for someone who's short.
00:45:34.000That's something that they figured out fairly recently with grappling over the last like 10-15 years with jujitsu and things along those lines that your legs, it's really important to use mostly your legs when you're grappling.
00:46:06.000And then the only real cross-training I do is just sort of like a push-up and core type routine, you know, like opposition training, just to maintain a healthy body.
00:46:17.000Oh, because you're constantly pulling?
00:46:55.000Because I think really it just shows that I've been really fortunate for 20 years that I've had very few injuries climbing.
00:47:00.000And then, you know, at some point you just have a few.
00:47:02.000I mean, that's just life to some extent.
00:47:04.000But when you do have something like that and you feel sort of the vulnerability of your tissue and you think about like, hey, what if this happened halfway up some fucking insane path?
00:47:18.000No, the bigger thing in the film, I have a back injury earlier where I get lowered off the end of the rope and fall.
00:47:24.000I only fell maybe 10 or 12 feet, you know, sort of like the height of this room basically.
00:47:29.000But I landed sort of like folded over this rock backward.
00:47:32.000It was like totally horrible, like these jagged boulders.
00:47:37.000But I was like, oh, you know, I got worked.
00:47:40.000And it was really sobering because it made me realize that if I fell from, you know, 40 feet climbing, you know, you could, it could be, yeah, I mean, it'd be a disaster.
00:47:49.000You know, basically, it made me realize just how fragile my body is because I'm like, oh, I only fell little tiny ways and it like really hurt.
00:50:45.000That's like freaking watching NFL games with good defense and you're like, oh man, it's not the team you want to watch, but it's probably the better team.
00:51:18.000I mean, people talk about that with climbing.
00:51:19.000It's like, oh, it's such a dangerous sport.
00:51:20.000But the thing about rock climbing is that it's basically a completely safe sport right up until some kind of accident may happen, and then you potentially die.
00:51:28.000But so the thing is, you can basically climb at a high level for 50 years and never have any issues, or you could maybe die doing it.
00:51:34.000But it's kind of a fundamentally safe sport for the most part, as opposed to what we're talking about, like fighting or football or things like that, or even mountain biking, where you're for sure going to get injured no matter what, just by playing the game.
00:51:49.000I think things like football and fighting, they creep up on you.
00:52:59.000Dude, I watched a rodeo from, like, very, very close, basically, like, from the commentator's box, like, above the pens for the 4th of July rodeo in Wyoming, like, two summers ago.
00:53:11.000And that was something that I was like, this is messed up.
00:53:14.000I mean, and I'm not, like, a huge animal rights guy, but I'm vegetarian, obviously, and I sort of care.
00:53:18.000And I was like, oh, you know, you're kind of abusing these animals for sport.
00:54:17.000Because he just didn't, you know, it was like, the bull's coming at him, he like turns and runs, and he basically like knocks himself out against this pose, and thankfully the clowns distracted the bull, and then the pyramid, like thankfully there was a freaking ambulance basically parked on the other side of the fence from what he ran into, and so they basically like lift him over and put him straight on the stretcher and like take him away,
00:56:22.000Knocking someone out is one of the weirdest feelings.
00:56:25.000Because part of you is happy that it's not you, but part of you is looking down at that guy that's just got flatlined, and you're like, whoa, that could have been me.
00:56:36.000How much do fighters, like, hold back?
00:56:38.000You know, because I feel like you kind of have to, like, go to the death, but then if you actually, like, punch somebody so hard they died or something, I mean, obviously you'd feel horrible, right?
00:56:47.000Well, that's what I'm saying, but so it's like you don't hold back at all, but then if you actually killed somebody, wouldn't you feel horrible?
00:56:53.000It's very rare that someone dies in mixed martial arts, believe it or not.
00:56:56.000Well, yeah, no, I mean, I know that, but it's possible.
00:57:42.000That's the thing about climbing is there's this real elemental appeal to just you and the mountain and it's nature and it's beautiful and it's like very peaceful and calm.
00:57:51.000It's like so different than having thousands of people screaming at you as you punch some guy in the face over and over.
00:57:55.000It's like, dude, that's just, that's not my scene.
00:57:59.000Well, did you see the Conor McGregor-Khabib Nurmagomedov fight where there's the big fight outside the cage?
00:58:04.000Oh, is that the thing where the guy vaults out of the cage and starts brawling?
00:58:08.000I was like, yeah, it's like WWE or whatever.
00:58:10.000It was like when they start breaking tables over people.
00:58:12.000Crazier than that because it was real.
01:00:22.000I would worry about that, like, if you're climbing, do you ever climb, like, is there a chain, like, one person in front of you?
01:00:30.000Yeah, yeah, I mean, so, yeah, when you climb up the rope, it's basically two people.
01:00:33.000One goes out first and then brings up the second, because you're limited by the length of the rope, so basically one person goes out to the end of the rope, brings up the next person, that person climbs through, brings up the second.
01:00:41.000So are you dependent upon the holes that they put in when they put those bolts into the cracks?
01:00:46.000So bolts and things are put in by the first ascensionist, so the very first person to have ever climbed the route.
01:00:51.000But then everybody thereafter is able to just clip their equipment into the bolts or use pre-established anchors, things like that.
01:00:59.000So all the routes are already established, and you can read a book that shows all the different routes.
01:01:04.000So El Capitan has something like 112 different routes of it.
01:01:28.000So of the 100 routes on El Cap, you know, something like 90 of them, you have to pull on the hardware.
01:01:33.000You have to like clip little ladders into it and step on, you know, you have to hammer pitons in and then clip into them and stand on them and hammer another piton and step on that.
01:01:45.000So then there, yeah, something like 10 or 15 free climbing routes where you can climb it.
01:01:49.000And so with my big goal of trying to freestyle El Cap to climb it without a rope, I was limited to just those 10 or 15 routes that are possible to climb just with your hands and feet.
01:01:58.000And how did you establish the one that you wanted to proceed on?
01:02:01.000Yeah, so basically, I just wound up doing the easiest one, because basically it's really hard to free climb El Cap by any means, and so the easiest one wound up being the most secure, the best one for me.
01:03:06.000He's been climbing a long time, and he's done all kinds of very difficult things.
01:03:10.000But in terms of free soloing, I think he just doesn't need to push it that hard.
01:03:15.000So he's almost like he dabbles in free soloing?
01:03:18.000Yeah, well, I mean, I dabble in free-soling as well.
01:03:21.000I mean, mostly I'm climbing with my friends, doing other things.
01:03:24.000You know, I mean, I think most, almost all climbers only dabble in free-soling.
01:03:28.000I mean, free-soling is sort of like one discipline of climbing.
01:03:31.000Like, when we were talking earlier about the Olympics having multiple disciplines, you know, there are many types of climbing, and most climbers do all of them to some extent, and free-soling always represents sort of this small specialty, like, extra style.
01:03:43.000So you do free climbing, and then you also do the kind of climbing where you have to put in those posts and stand on them?
01:03:49.000Yeah, or aid climbing, artificial climbing.
01:03:51.000So I free climb, I aid climb sometimes.
01:03:53.000I don't like to because it's too much work.
01:04:19.000Well, it depends, but it can be a lot.
01:04:20.000And certainly back in the day when people were doing the first Estensive El Cap, I mean, it's something like 40 pounds or 50 pounds of iron hanging off them.
01:04:27.000Nowadays it's all a lot lighter and you can use better gear, but yeah, I mean, it's a lot.
01:04:31.000But that's kind of the appeal of free climbing or even free soloing is that you have nothing on you.
01:04:35.000Now, how secure is that stuff that you're hammering in there?
01:04:45.000But sometimes that's okay because if you're thousands of feet off the ground, you can take that 100-foot fall and not touch anything, and it's fine.
01:06:06.000So the reason he fell so far is because we were doing this sort of complicated maneuvers.
01:06:11.000Normally I would have a belay device on it.
01:06:12.000Basically I would be attached to the rope earlier to like catch him.
01:06:15.000But I'd taken my belay device off and I was just tied into the end.
01:06:18.000So basically he fell on all the slack whipped through until it hit me at the end of the rope.
01:06:22.000But so when he yelled, I basically had time to be like, oh my god, he's falling, like brace for impact, like knowing that in a second the rope is going to come tight against the end that I'm tied into and basically jerk me.
01:06:33.000But then thankfully there's enough drag in the system that it didn't jerk me off the stance that I was on or else I would have gotten pulled like 50 feet across the wall and it was all messed up.
01:06:41.000So when he's falling and you're realizing that you're going to get yanked by his fall, are you like digging into the rock?
01:06:48.000Yeah, no, basically I was like, oh my god!
01:06:53.000I was actually like facing out away from the wall, like facing out towards the meadow because I was in an open corner.
01:07:01.000Like, if you look at the corner of the room, imagine one leg on each side facing outward, like pushed into this position because it's like...
01:07:08.000I was about to have to untie my knot and retie it and do some things.
01:07:11.000And so I was basically like all ready to do some things.
01:07:13.000And all of a sudden I hear that he's falling and I was like, oh my God.
01:07:16.000And then I was able to just sort of like stick in there.
01:07:20.000But my point is just that taking big falls, I mean, if you trust your equipment and everything, it can be okay to take big falls like that.
01:07:26.000You obviously try to avoid them because, you know, had he hit a ledge or something, then potentially he could have died.
01:07:31.000But because it was clean there, it was okay.
01:07:34.000So if he was in a situation where there was a slight angle and he fell that far, that's where it's really dangerous.
01:07:54.000What do you do if you fall and you break something and you're halfway up?
01:07:58.000Well, dude, so, okay, same route, the nose of El Cap, which we were trying to do the speed record on.
01:08:02.000This friend of mine who I actually previously held the speed record with, this older guy, Hans Florin, who actually wrote the book How to Speed Climb, that I learned how to speed climb from many years ago.
01:08:12.000So he freaking, exactly what I'm describing, sort of worst case scenario, he took this 20, probably a 22 foot fall, but he was unlucky enough, which is totally fine.
01:08:21.000He had a rope, he had gear, everything worked exactly the way it's supposed to.
01:08:26.000But the bummer was that there was a little ledge probably twice the size of that box right there, like that little wooden box, just kind of this little thing sticking out from the wall about this far.
01:08:35.000But basically he fell 20 feet, hit that, broke both of his ankles, and then went off at another two feet.
01:08:41.000And so the rope caught him and, you know, the fall was exactly as expected.
01:08:44.000All his gear held, everything's totally normal, except that he happened to hit that thing right at the apex of, you know, at the full force of his fall.
01:08:51.000You know, I had that ledge been two feet below him, it wouldn't matter at all, he would have just hit it and jumped off into space.
01:08:56.000But because he'd already fallen 20 feet, broke both his ankles, And then it was kind of horrible.
01:09:02.000I was actually up higher on the wall that day.
01:09:03.000I'd come in from above to just rappel in and work on something.
01:09:06.000And I heard him yelling, but I thought he was just hooting and hollering like, hey, you know, how's it going type deal.
01:09:11.000And then I like had climbed out to the summit.
01:09:13.000And then when I'd hiked halfway back down, I got a voicemail from him saying, That, you know, being like, oh, hey, it's Hans.
01:09:22.000You know, and basically like, oh, can you, can you help or whatever?
01:09:25.000He'd already called search and rescue.
01:09:26.000And so rescue is already mobilized, but search and rescue in Yosemite, it's, it's really elite.
01:09:32.000They're really fast, but it's still sort of by the books, you know, it still takes kind of a lot of time.
01:09:35.000And so I was like, Oh, man, like maybe I should run back up and rappel down and like help my buddy rappel down the wall again or something.
01:09:42.000Should I like get him out of here faster?
01:09:44.000Just because when search and rescue is immobilized, it's like a long time.
01:09:47.000And I was like, if he's in a lot of pain, that sucks, you know?
01:09:52.000I wound up calling search and rescue and talking it through with him to see if there was anything I could do to help.
01:09:56.000But ultimately, I wound up just going down because there wasn't really anything for me to do.
01:10:00.000So he's essentially just suspending for a while, waiting for them to get him?
01:10:03.000Yeah, so he basically just sat on a ledge with two broken legs for, you know, six hours or twelve hours or something, and then eventually they managed to haul him up to the summit, and then I think they helicoptered him off the next morning.
01:10:44.000That's, like, when you're sitting there, if you're sitting there hanging off a ledge like that with two broken ankles for six hours, I mean, that must be grim by the time they get to you.
01:10:55.000Yeah, so I think he and his partner actually rappelled down 100 feet to a slightly bigger ledge so that he could lay on it and elevate his legs.
01:11:01.000And then I think there were some other climbers around that gave him a jacket, you know, so he could sort of bundle up and, like, lay there and sort of manage.
01:11:07.000But yeah, I mean, it seems extremely character-building.
01:11:26.000When you think about your life and you think about the stuff that you do, is there a point where you feel like you won't do it anymore or a point where you feel like you won't free solo anymore or do you look at like your friend who you were talking about who's older who's still free soloing and doing difficult paths?
01:11:46.000Do you think this is just your life forever?
01:12:54.000I was sort of training for this thing, and then I did it, and I'm just not sure if there's a bigger thing that's worth more effort.
01:13:01.000As you see in the film, I have a relationship with my girlfriend, and she's great, and we have this nice life together, and there's so much else in climbing.
01:13:10.000Maybe I'll never seek out big free soloing challenges again.
01:13:37.000I have a foundation that I've worked with for the last five or six years supporting solar around the world.
01:13:42.000And so I could see putting more and more effort into that.
01:13:45.000I mean, that's something that's satisfying in a way that climbing sort of isn't because it actually has a real tangible impact on the world.
01:13:52.000You know, I mean, climbing is really fulfilling, personally.
01:13:55.000But when it's all said and done, it's like, it's just me going rock climbing.
01:14:04.000It's just the Honnold Foundation, but we've been supporting solar.
01:14:09.000I mean, if you want the longer version, it's basically, you know, I was looking for some way to do something positive in the world.
01:14:15.000So I was looking to support environmental projects.
01:14:17.000And then I was like, there's no real point in supporting environmental projects that don't also support solar.
01:14:21.000It like increased standard of living that like help people in need.
01:14:24.000And that sort of led me to solar projects, basically solar energy access.
01:14:28.000And so that's what we've been supporting the last five, six years.
01:14:31.000And so what do you do with this project?
01:14:34.000Well, so domestically, mostly it's just been my way of donating my money to other projects that support solar.
01:14:41.000So domestically in the U.S., I've been supporting this group Grid Alternatives, for example.
01:14:47.000And so, I mean, I've done a few installations with them in Sacramento, in my hometown, where basically a low-income family just gets a free home solar system on their house.
01:14:56.000And so, it saves them the energy bills, but then also, in terms of, you know, carbon emissions, it's just, it's good for the planet.
01:15:06.000But, and then, the bigger, potentially the bigger impacts have been projects we've been supporting in Africa, which give access to, like, solar lanterns, solar lights, being able to charge cell phones.
01:15:17.000Basically, like, small-scale systems, where it's just a panel, a battery, and a few LED lights, and a phone charger.
01:15:23.000But those kinds of things can fundamentally change somebody's life because, you know, East Africa people can spend up to a quarter of their income on kerosene just to light their home, which is totally outrageous.
01:15:32.000I mean, imagine spending that percentage of your income just to have light after dark.
01:15:36.000You know, and like in equatorial regions of the earth, it's dark for 12 hours a day.
01:15:40.000I mean, imagine if when the sun goes down, your productive hours are done.
01:15:43.000You're just like, no, I'm just going to sit in the dark for 12 hours.
01:16:35.000And, I mean, one can only hope that that's going to, it's going to keep, it's going to continue to evolve.
01:16:43.000The thing that drives me absolutely crazy is that it's totally obvious that in 100 years the Earth will be run through solar and things like that because there's just so much energy spilling out of the Earth and it's free.
01:16:56.000And so the technology is only improving, everybody's adopting it.
01:16:59.000Like, in 100 years, no question, everything will be run from the Sun.
01:17:02.000The thing that drives me insane is that there's so much resistance to it, from utilities, from consumer ignorance, from whatever else, but people just don't totally get it and sort of oppose to it.
01:17:12.000And so, you know, half the world will be dragged kicking and screaming into the future.
01:17:17.000And you're sort of like, if you just embrace it and get there in 15 years instead of 100 years, all the arguments about climate change, all the arguments about environmental degradation, all those kinds of things would be mitigated to a large extent.
01:17:29.000You know, like, even if you don't believe in climate change, even if, you know, you deny all the science behind it, you think it's all BS, it's like, is there really a downside to just adopting the future sooner?
01:17:40.000Yeah, it's like one of those things where you're sort of like, if it's going to happen eventually, let's just do it now and save all the freaking hassle getting there.
01:17:47.000I think it's the momentum of the current system.
01:17:49.000It's very difficult for people to just abandon established ways of doing things, especially when we're so hooked on fossil fuels.
01:17:57.000I know, but it's just such a bummer that the status quo is such a thing.
01:18:00.000People are like, oh, that's the way we do it.
01:18:02.000And it's just weird because there's so many things in life that change so frequently.
01:18:07.000I mean, the world is constantly changing.
01:18:09.000You're like, let's just embrace the changes that matter the most and just do them faster.
01:18:12.000Well, you're talking as a guy who lives in a van and climbs rocks.
01:18:16.000And these business people that have thousands and thousands of employees and millions, if not billions of money, of dollars invested in these things.
01:19:16.000Many years ago, there was a big storm that hit the East Coast, and they had a bunch of cars parked at a dock, and they all exploded when the water hit them.
01:19:24.000And they realized, wait, wait, wait, wait.
01:19:26.000You can't get your things drenched in water.
01:19:29.000Like, when the water hit a certain level, they had a severe flaw.
01:19:33.000And so they burst into flames and exploded.
01:19:36.000And there's this whole dock filled with these...
01:19:42.000Fisker Karmas that blew up and they call them Karmas, which is even more hilarious.
01:19:50.000That's like, that's all bad all the way around.
01:19:52.000Yeah, I think they've since fixed that, but yeah, it was a big flaw.
01:19:56.000I was just actually reading this business management book, but we were talking about the Ford Pinto with having freaking gas tanks too close to the back bumper.
01:20:05.000It's basically your gas tank protected by an inch of plastic.
01:20:11.000But that actually, I think, killed lots of people because they were actually put into production and then there are tons of accidents and the cars explode and you're just like, man.
01:20:18.000Speaking of bad decisions in auto manufacturing.
01:20:55.000Also, I mean, the future of cars is more like a smaller car with a glass roof, like Tesla style, where it's sort of an additional ad right here.
01:21:04.000Solar roof will create enough energy to power the car.
01:21:06.000No other vehicle sold in the U.S. has ever offered this capability.
01:21:09.000Well, I mean, so that might be true if it just sat parked in the sun for 12 hours and then you drove home.
01:21:28.000But, I mean, the solar panels of today, I mean, I have a buddy of mine who does a lot of backpacking and he carries around this, it's like a foldable solar charger for his phone.
01:21:37.000And he, you know, folds it up and lays it out and then puts a charger there and then he uses that charger to charge his phone.
01:21:47.000But he'll go 20 plus days with just this thing.
01:21:51.000Yeah, I mean, so I mentioned our expedition to Antarctica last winter.
01:21:55.000So that's 24 hours of sunlight because you're in Antarctica in their summer.
01:21:59.000And our entire expedition was run from solar.
01:22:02.000And so we'd actually taken a generator and the other guys on the trip forgot oil for the generator, basically.
01:22:24.000So, I mean, they basically ran this whole operation off solar.
01:22:26.000One of the camera guys, this guy Pablo, who's a good friend of mine, basically just had to wake up, you know, every two hours to move the panels around the tent as the sun tracks around the sky, you know, so that it's always in full sun.
01:22:37.000And he had to sleep with the batteries and things to make sure things stay warm enough.
01:22:40.000But otherwise, I mean, because it's really cold.
01:22:43.000It's funny because you put your laptops and stuff into coolers, like into ice chests, to keep them insulated enough to stay warm as opposed to cold.
01:23:10.000It's like, if you imagine a city that's all silent electric cars with no emissions, I mean, imagine how much more pleasant the pedestrian experience is when it's not, like, diesel exhaust right next to you on the city streets.
01:23:19.000Yeah, and you don't hear the car that runs you over.
01:23:29.000You don't hear, like, an engine, like, ripping right by you.
01:23:32.000Yeah, I think it's inevitable that we figure out a way that you can just power everything from solar, including cars, as you're driving them.
01:23:40.000I mean, it only makes sense as the technology improves.
01:24:31.000And so I was going to start donating a significant percentage of my income to environmental nonprofits.
01:24:37.000And then I decided that I should do it in sort of a public-facing way, in the form of the foundation, just because I felt like, you know, I'm never going to have nearly as much money as real philanthropic organizations, you know, like the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation.
01:24:49.000Like, I'll never have real dollars like that, but I do sort of have this platform, like some sort of public, you know, persona, whatever.
01:24:57.000So I was like, well, at least if I donate things, I can sort of leverage that in the right way to contribute.
01:25:03.000I don't know, basically to try and maximize the good that I'm doing.
01:25:05.000And so, yeah, so then I just started researching organizations that I felt like were doing great work, and that led me to solar, basically.
01:25:12.000Does most of your income come from sponsors and from public appearances?
01:25:16.000It was mostly sponsors, and then it sort of has shifted into sponsors and sort of one-off things.
01:25:21.000So, like, I published a book a few years ago, and so there's an advance from that.
01:25:26.000Um, has made a little money, um, the, you know, random little things.
01:25:31.000And then now it's also sort of split with like corporate speaking type commercial opportunities as well.
01:25:36.000So sponsorship is still probably the biggest thing for me.
01:25:38.000So like the North face being my biggest sponsor, um, and most important sponsor for me.
01:25:42.000But then now it's sort of split between a bunch of different sources.
01:25:46.000So the public speaking things, uh, these, uh, corporate appearances, you just go and get, just talk to them about free solo climbing and Yeah, talk to them about climbing, talk about preparation.
01:25:56.000I mean, it depends on what somebody needs, really.
01:25:59.000It depends on what the organization is.
01:26:00.000I've spoken to a bunch of venture capital-type firms about risk-taking or risk management.
01:26:19.000If I give a nice slideshow and chat for a bit, it's beautiful, it's different, but I think that it still gets back to some of the same elemental issues.
01:26:29.000How do you manage risk in your life and what's worth it and how do you choose?
01:26:33.000It's a smart move, too, for a company to just kind of vary the kind of input that gets to the employees.
01:26:41.000Give them something that's kind of spectacular and interesting.
01:27:14.000Trying to grow the foundation, do something more significant through it.
01:27:18.000I actually hired a full-time executive director this year, this woman who's running it for me, which is kind of awesome.
01:27:22.000So we're actually sort of ramping it all up a little bit.
01:27:24.000That was slightly in response to the film because I sort of figured that, you know, this is like a moment that I should try to take advantage of and use it to do something more positive.
01:27:32.000And so that's all sort of exciting for me.
01:27:34.000And it's definitely not a grand plan, but it's, you know, it's just sort of all incremental progress.
01:27:40.000So when you're doing all these climbs, you have a lot of time.
01:28:09.000You know, if I have a family someday, I want to be able to take my kids to these same places and have them appreciate the land in the same way.
01:28:14.000I mean, yeah, so like Yosemite, the last five years, freaking the entire forest has basically died from pine beetles.
01:28:21.000Well, all the pine trees have basically died because of pine beetles.
01:28:23.000And so like just in the last five years, let's say, the Yosemite Valley floor has sort of transformed from like a dense pine forest to sort of this open oak forest.
01:28:32.000It's a totally different character because all the pine trees have died and then they've been cutting them all down to reduce fuel load.
01:28:37.000So they're basically logging trucks with pine trees leaving the park nonstop, which I totally support.
01:28:43.000I'm not anti-logging the dead trees because you may as well use them if they're already dead.
01:28:47.000I definitely don't want to see Yosemite Valley all burst into flames.
01:29:11.000Well, I think it's invasive in that I don't know specifically with Yosemite, I could be wrong about this, but with a lot of the pine beetle problems in Colorado, it has more to do with a shorter winter and warmer temperatures, because normally the larva would die through the winter, like they would freeze.
01:29:28.000But basically they're not freezing to the same extent, and so the population explodes and then you wind up with all the trees dying.
01:29:34.000Yeah, we were there, and we were in Big Bear a few years back when they were having a real issue with it, and they were having real significant fire scares.
01:30:46.000No, I mean, that's, yeah, no, that's messed up.
01:30:48.000I mean, that's what's so, like, yeah, this is why I'm like, this is why we transition to solar sooner, you know, because it's like, if it helps at all with these kinds of issues, then it's like worth the effort, you know?
01:30:58.000It's like, if it's going to happen anyway, it's like, you may as well just do it now.
01:31:01.000So this thing that you were doing in Antarctica, you're filming something there as well?
01:31:07.000Well, for a trip like that, for an expedition, I mean, that was the North Face expedition, and so that's where they get a lot of their brand content.
01:31:13.000And so it makes sense to film a trip like that.
01:31:16.000And we were somewhere that nobody ever goes.
01:31:18.000We were doing first ascents at peaks that had never been climbed.
01:31:20.000So it kind of makes sense to document that to some extent.
01:31:23.000But in general, I think I try to balance my just pure climbing with filming.
01:31:28.000Yeah, that's what I was going to ask you.
01:31:30.000You don't want to get to the point where you're filming everything.
01:31:33.000You have GoPro on your head everywhere you go.
01:32:02.000If you saw Free Solo, you know that I only have one mode and that's just me.
01:32:07.000Which, I mean, when I see the film, a lot of it, I'm like, oh, maybe I need to censor myself a little more.
01:32:13.000Maybe I should be a little more thoughtful about what I say.
01:32:16.000But, no, I mean, I'm pretty much always, I just do me.
01:32:20.000And if people are filming or not, they just get...
01:32:22.000I mean, I'm more mindful of profanity and a few things like that.
01:32:25.000If I know that I'm being filmed or I know I'm being watched, then I try to be slightly more respectful.
01:32:30.000Especially if I see kids in an audience, I definitely try not to curse.
01:32:33.000But overall, I'm like, no, I just always stay in my mind, you know?
01:32:37.000Well that's what I was talking about earlier when I was asking like the difference between you when you're, I mean your love of this is your love of nature and of being in these beautiful national forests and public lands and experiencing these amazing environments.
01:32:52.000But then sometimes that gets sort of perverted when you're filming everything and you've got people, everything becomes this sort of presentation and everything becomes professional.
01:33:06.000I mean, I think that's the risk with filming.
01:33:08.000I think with Free Solo, I think they did an amazing job of maintaining the character, the nuance, like not perverting it in any way.
01:35:13.000We're just the voice notes from the phone, just talking into the voice notes from the phone, and you can make a podcast off that, and it's really easy to upload.
01:35:22.000Sitting in your van afterwards and just talking about things you're working on with your foundation, talking about spectacular moments during climbs where you're seeing things and talking about what it's been like doing this tour.
01:36:05.000I mean, it's an interesting way to, like, share ideas better.
01:36:08.000Well, the reason why I'm saying this is because you have this very specific...
01:36:15.000very unusual life and You also have all these ideas about the environment and have all these ideas about using it for positive reasons and and altruistic Yeah, hoping to frickin make the world a better place and having making an impact with your foundation I really think you could look you're the best thing with your foundation would be to make make it exposed to more people and it would most certainly do that and Yeah,
01:36:42.000I'll talk to my executive director about that too.
01:36:45.000I mean, that would be an interesting way to at least share the ideas that I care about.
01:37:16.000When you're like, I'm just going to record monologues of me rambling about ideas, that's when you start to trend towards douchiness, perhaps.
01:37:23.000Well, the good thing is, you could always review it or have your girlfriend review it.
01:38:02.000You've got a very significant voice right now.
01:38:05.000I really think that you could make a big impact with a lot of people.
01:38:08.000And the thing about these impacts, it's sort of like the butterfly effect, right?
01:38:12.000You never know what it actually changes.
01:38:14.000You have no idea how many people are going to hear you just from this podcast and the things you're saying about solar and people thinking about, like, yeah, maybe I can do something.
01:38:23.000And then, boom, it just makes these little incremental steps and then they carry on momentum and you never know.
01:38:32.000Well, that's the positive way of looking at it, you know?
01:38:35.000Yeah, I just think it would be cool, too.
01:38:56.000Like I said, the beautiful thing about things like this is that there's no real structure to it where you have to do something at a certain time.
01:39:18.000I've always contrasted climbing from other mainstream sports like that because with climbing, the objective is that you're always inspired by it and you do it whenever you're ready as opposed to having to perform on the right day at the right time.
01:39:29.000I love that lifestyle where you're like, you know, today is my day or today is not my day.
01:40:10.000And your specific vision, the things that you like to talk about, your specific message.
01:40:16.000That's one of the things that people really, really enjoy about something like a podcast is that they know there's no one telling you what to say or what to do.