Bob Lazar was a nuclear physicist who worked at Area 51 in the late 1980s and early 1990s. He tells the story of how he got into Area 51 and how he ended up working there. He also talks about some of the weird things he saw and the strange things he did while working there, and why he thought Area 51 was a good place to work. Bob's story is one of the most fascinating stories I've ever heard, and I hope you enjoy it as much as I did listening to it! Thanks to Bob for coming on the show and sharing his story with us. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with a friend or become a supporter of Area 51 by becoming a patron patron or subscribing to Area 51 Radio and/or clicking the bell button below to get immediate access to all future Area 51 episodes. Thank you so much for your support and stay tuned for more Area 51 radio episodes! Thanks again for listening and stay safe out there in Area 51! -Jon Sorrentino and thank you for supporting Area 51. -Bob's story will be featured in the upcoming documentary, Area 51: Flying Saucers, a documentary directed by Jeremy Corbell, coming out this fall. Bob's Story - on the History Channel, coming soon. and Area 51 is available on Amazon Prime and Vimeo, so be sure to check it out! and stay up to date with Area 51 on your social media to see what Area 51 has to do! in this episode. . to find out more on Area 51? or Area 51 and flying saucer sightings? to check out Area 51, flying saucers? and much more! to see Area 51's history! . . . Thanks, Jon's story? - Jon's Story: Area 51 & Flying Saucer: Jon s Story: The Legend? , Area 51 Podcasts: , Area 51 Documentary: The Story, , and Flying Sauces: The Lost in the Stars . , Bob s Story, the Documentary, and more. -- -- Jon s Workday, , a short film about Area 51s and UFOs, and more! -- -- and more -- Jonathan s Story? -- Tom's Story, and a little bit more Tom s Story from Area 51--
00:01:47.000At that time, it was 1982, I had put a jet engine in my Honda and Los Alamos put it on the front page of the paper.
00:02:01.000I said, you know, Los Alamos man, physicist at the lab, you know, built this 200-mile-an-hour Honda jet car that I drove to work every day.
00:02:11.000So I was known in Los Alamos, the guy with the weird car, and you could hear it from a mile away.
00:02:21.000The day that came out on the front page of the paper was the day Edward Teller, the father of the hydrogen bomb, was giving a lecture down there at the lab.
00:02:32.000And we didn't have much going on that day in our group, and I asked if I could go down there.
00:02:39.000And I went down there early, and Ed Teller was outside, leaning on a brick wall there and reading the front page of the paper.
00:02:48.000Now, this is a guy out of history, so I introduced myself.
00:02:50.000Hey, I'm the guy you're reading about there.
00:02:53.000And we talked for a little while, and it was cool.
00:02:55.000You know, fast forward to years later, I had moved out to Las Vegas and had, you know, left Los Alamos and, you know, went on to other things and I wanted to get back into the scientific community.
00:03:06.000You know, I left to start other businesses and that sort of thing.
00:03:10.000So I sent resumes out and one of them went out to Ed Teller and referenced our meeting.
00:04:19.000It was kind of, not exactly a full-time job, but you might have to be out there for two weeks at a time and take two weeks off.
00:04:26.000So it was kind of, the work schedule would be kind of broken up.
00:04:30.000And did this seem attractive to you or did it seem weird?
00:04:34.000No, it really wasn't weird because people that work at the test site, anybody that's familiar with the area up there, you know, working at the nuclear test site or at the Tonopah test range north of there, That's typically how things go.
00:04:48.000So you had known about it from the scientific community?
00:04:51.000Because Area 51 at that time was still classified?
00:04:53.000No, they didn't say anything about Area 51. Okay, so they just...
00:04:56.000They just said it was in a, you know, in a remote location and you just know it was up at the test site.
00:07:31.000I got reprimanded immediately for touching the thing.
00:07:34.000And there was a guy, an armed guard, that followed us in and just said, keep your eyes forward and your hands at your side and just walk in the door.
00:07:41.000So that was the first time I had seen anything that was weird.
00:07:47.000It was some time later that I was introduced to my lab partner, Barry.
00:07:53.000And we had some of the subcomponents of the craft in the lab.
00:07:58.000And Barry was very anxious to get a new lab partner.
00:08:02.000So he was very talkative and couldn't wait to show me different things.
00:08:05.000And it was in the demonstration of the reactor working where it caught my attention to where this is technology that doesn't even exist.
00:08:17.000So, I mean, that was the first time I knew that this is really something different.
00:08:23.000What was it about this reactor that made you think that it didn't exist?
00:08:32.000Well, I actually have to back up because there were some briefings that I read before that that certainly gave me the impression that this was going to be a weird job.
00:08:44.000But this was the first hands-on thing.
00:08:46.000This was a small reactor about the size of a hemisphere about the size of a basketball.
00:08:52.000On a metal plate, and when it was running, it produced a gravitational field, a gravitational field of its own.
00:08:59.000Now this is something that we can't do.
00:09:50.000Like when you felt that and you knew that there was nothing that you were aware of that could produce this?
00:09:56.000Then that connected me to the briefings that I read on the first day at S4 was that, you know, everything that I had read was apparently accurate.
00:10:11.000This project was to back-engineer the alien craft, and specifically it was to try and back-engineer and see if we can duplicate the technology with available materials.
00:10:26.000Now to do this, they split the project into, you know, many different pieces for several reasons.
00:10:32.000They do this on all classified projects.
00:10:34.000So nobody has the complete story, but they compartmentalize everything.
00:10:40.000Now we had the power and propulsion system.
00:10:42.000So what briefings they gave me were like a one or two page overview of some of the other projects that were going on, you know, on the craft.
00:10:50.000The only reason they do that is just in case what you're working on is connected intimately in some way that we don't know of to one of the other projects.
00:11:01.000So, again, everything from metallurgy to weapon potential, the craft.
00:11:11.000These were all, you know, essentially very short briefings, but mine was just power and propulsion, and it made it very clear that what I read was accurate.
00:11:22.000So when you're reading that, before you actually saw the reactor, what were your thoughts on what they were describing?
00:11:32.000If you knew that something like that didn't exist, and they're describing it in the briefings, what did you think you were going to see?
00:11:49.000You know, a lot of times they'll take in real high security jobs.
00:11:55.000I mean, they'll intentionally insert nonsense into them.
00:11:59.000Whether it's to confuse the fact or if for someone was to leak it out, they would carry that information along and know where it came from.
00:13:26.000I mean, we did identify, at least we think, some processes and had a rough idea, we think, of what was going on, but I think this is a problem that they've had for a long time.
00:13:39.000And, you know, I was replacing somebody that Barry worked with prior to me, and I think there was some horrific accident that I didn't have a whole lot of information on, but, you know, Barry alluded to that.
00:13:53.000Horrific accident, like where someone died?
00:14:12.000Supposedly, there was an unannounced nuclear test, and that's what it was.
00:14:17.000At the time, remember, they were still doing underground nuclear tests at the test site.
00:14:22.000But from what I understand, according to Barry, there was an attempt made.
00:14:26.000Now, this must have been a pretty desperate attempt because it's not a very scientific process to cut, you know, analyze something that way.
00:14:33.000But it looked like they used a plasma cutter or something I got to cut into an operating reactor.
00:14:39.000How many of these things did they have?
00:15:47.000I think they've been around for a while.
00:15:50.000So they bring you into this room, you see this reactor working, you realize this is nothing that as far as like the scientific community at current time has the ability to create.
00:16:10.000I would imagine the moment you actually make contact with something that's extraterrestrial, whether it's an object or a being, something where you can absolutely be certain it's not from here, your whole paradigm, the whole world you live in,
00:16:59.000In short order, it began to concern me.
00:17:03.000We really have no idea what we're talking about.
00:17:09.000The excitement kind of turned to dread at some point because the amount of power we're dealing with is astronomical.
00:17:19.000I mean, to affect gravity, to produce the effects like this equipment does, takes huge amounts of power.
00:17:26.000And I've given the example before of You know, taking a small portable nuclear reactor and, you know, putting it back into Victorian times, you know, with the scientists of the time, and just dropping it in a room.
00:17:40.000And they come and look at it and see that it's producing power and wonder how it works.
00:17:47.000And as soon as they get some of the shielding off, the people are going to drop dead because of the radiation inside.
00:17:53.000Now, people have no idea that radiation even exists back then.
00:17:58.000But anybody that comes in to check on them will also drop dead.
00:18:02.000And, you know, there's no reason that that exact scenario couldn't happen with what we're dealing with.
00:18:09.000We have no idea how the physics operate within this thing.
00:18:14.000The power levels are, like I said, astronomical.
00:18:17.000It's incredibly dangerous to tinker with something like that.
00:18:21.000And, you know, in some respects, we were guinea pigs.
00:18:24.000Just try to find out how to make this thing.
00:18:26.000So they had a series, as far as you surmised, they had a series of different scientists try to back-engineer this thing, try to figure out what this thing was, and they would bring in new people and, like, let's throw Bob at it.
00:18:39.000I don't know how many, but I knew there was certainly one before me, and I knew he died during the analysis of the reactor itself.
00:18:49.000And you don't know how many have worked on it, and no one gave any indication?
00:18:55.000This could have been there for 50 years.
00:18:57.000It could have been there for five years.
00:18:59.000When they're giving you instructions, what are they saying?
00:19:01.000Like, when they're giving you direction, they're showing you all this stuff, like, what are they saying?
00:19:05.000Specifically, what are they asking of you?
00:19:08.000Well, essentially what they ask is what I said.
00:19:11.000We are just to gather as much information as possible, find out how it operates, and see if we can duplicate it.
00:19:16.000But they never told you where it was from.
00:19:19.000They never let you ask questions about where it's from.
00:19:24.000If the information I read in the briefings was accurate, now what I do have to say is the information that pertained directly to the reactor was accurate.
00:19:34.000What I read did, I mean, did jive with reality.
00:22:02.000So you read through all the Zeta Reticuli thing, but then when you see the actual starship with the little American flag sticker on it, I think...
00:23:31.000And did they have any understanding about what could possibly create this effect?
00:23:37.000Did they have any areas where they'd like you to look into?
00:23:45.000Well, they knew there was a fuel source in it and they were proficient at making it work.
00:23:53.000And again, my analogy to something like this is you can drop a motorcycle off in the wagon train days and just leave it with the keys parked outside, you know, somebody's place.
00:24:03.000Everybody will come around it and they'll poke and prod and eventually they'll turn the key, get it to start and become proficient at riding it.
00:24:11.000But they won't be able to understand what the hell's going on.
00:24:15.000They won't be able to make the plastic fender, much less anything else.
00:24:18.000And I think that's exactly the state we were at.
00:24:21.000We played around with the parts long enough before I got there where they could make the reactor operate, take the fuel out, and know that it makes it work.
00:24:32.000How exactly what was going on in the reactor remained a mystery at the time.
00:24:39.000I think we made some progress on what was going on inside, but I don't think anybody really knew anything.
00:24:47.000They could just watch what was going on and make note of it.
00:24:54.000And what progress was made while you were there?
00:24:57.000Well, we came up with a bunch of Reasonably good ideas about how the reactor worked.
00:25:05.000And one of them was the base, the square base of it was essentially like a cyclotron, which is a small particle accelerator, a circular one.
00:25:14.000Particle accelerators, linear particle accelerators are just, you know...
00:25:18.000Long tube, essentially, and they accelerate particles with high voltage and radio frequencies until they reach high speeds.
00:25:25.000But a cyclotron does that in a small circular area.
00:25:28.000And there's this very heavy element fuel, element 115, something that wasn't on our periodic charts at the time.
00:27:20.000We had this conversation, and I said, I have to talk to him.
00:27:24.000The document, there's been detractors, there's been a bunch of people that called bullshit on many of the things that you've said, but over time, many of the things that you talked about, even in the 80s, have proven to be true.
00:27:38.000Things that people said were not true were proven to be true.
00:28:30.000And deuterium isn't radioactive, it's another stable isotope of hydrogen, but tritium is radioactive.
00:28:36.000Now they're all hydrogen, but they just have different amounts of neutrons.
00:28:40.000So it's the same thing with other elements and element 115. Depending on the amount of neutrons it has, It's the stable version that has the properties that we're talking about.
00:29:06.000So they somehow or another had acquired a stable version.
00:29:10.000Did they say that the stable version had come with this craft?
00:29:12.000Yeah, it absolutely came with the craft, yeah.
00:29:14.000So at the time, you having a firm knowledge of the periodic chart and knowing what was real and what wasn't real, what was your reaction to having this stable element 115 that wasn't even supposed to exist?
00:29:29.000I mean, down to the metal, I did get a chance To look inside the craft on only one occasion, and this was important because where the reactor sat might have been critical to how it operated since everything operates without any interconnections,
00:29:47.000so the placement of components might be critical.
00:29:50.000So they allowed me to go inside and look at it.
00:29:56.000Shoot, again, I forgot where the hell I am.
00:29:58.000So you're going into this craft, and what are you thinking when you're inside of it?
00:30:04.000It's a very ominous feeling, because it's, there are no, first of all, everything is one color.
00:30:12.000It's like a dark pewter color, and there are no right angles anywhere.
00:30:17.000It's as if somebody took, I've said this before, somebody took a model and fashioned it out of wax and then heated it just for a short time so everything melted.
00:30:28.000Everything looks like it's fused together.
00:30:30.000Everything has a radius of curvature where two items meet.
00:32:55.000So I can only exchange ideas and talk to Barry.
00:32:58.000Now, this really interferes with science because science is based on free discussion.
00:33:04.000And ideally, you get a bunch of guys together, exchange ideas, work on problems, and that's how things move forward.
00:33:10.000But they're so over-the-top concerned about security, they split everything off and everybody becomes stagnant.
00:33:19.000It just destroys any of the progress you can make, or at least makes it go so slow.
00:33:27.000I think they wind up shooting themselves in the foot.
00:33:29.000Which is probably why they arrived at this bottleneck that they needed to get this madman with a...
00:33:37.000I think that was an act of desperation.
00:33:54.000And when you see this craft and you're inside, was there any indication that there was an area that they would use to control it, to pilot?
00:35:13.000And I think that just determines its position in space.
00:35:18.000But I physically was in the center section and I stuck my torso in the bottom section and hung upside down so I could see how the gravity amplifiers were positioned.
00:35:30.000What is roughly the size of this thing?
00:35:32.000I don't remember from being there, but after all this stuff was over, I had John Andrews, a guy from the Testers Model Corporation, and we sat down and tried to figure out from what I saw and known sizes of things,
00:35:51.000and we came up with 52 feet in diameter.
00:36:41.000But that was the only one where I saw there was actual physical damage to it.
00:36:46.000And that one was roughly the same size?
00:36:49.000They were kind of too far away to tell.
00:36:52.000And there were several teams that were working on the propulsion system, so there were different teams that were working on these different aircrafts?
00:37:05.000Now, when you're sitting in this thing and you're looking at this otherworldly craft, your goal is to try to figure out how this thing functions.
00:37:16.000Your goal is to try to figure out how this reactor...
00:37:19.000I mean, imagine they would give you more time than just one day to check that out.
00:37:34.000I mean, up at the Tonopah test range where they work on stealth fighters, you know, you go, I think, three weeks on, one week off, and you stay up there, too.
00:37:43.000So it's not weird to stay up at the test site.
00:38:27.000I mean, we were always – there was never a lot of information that we gained.
00:38:34.000The guy, you would call him our supervisor, his name was Dennis Mariani, and kind of a military-looking guy.
00:38:42.000And he would routinely pop in during the day and, you know, hey, what's going on, guys?
00:38:48.000And he would essentially relay any information, anything new we came up with.
00:38:53.000I mean, he was our go-between, where we presented him the information, and then he took it to wherever they were, you know, assembling all the data from everybody.
00:39:02.000Now, I assume you're working normal days, like an eight-hour day?
00:39:32.000But what did you do while you were there?
00:39:34.000If you're looking at this object, this reactor, and you can't figure out what it is or how it works, other than the fact that it works on this element that we don't even know about.
00:40:28.000I mean, we looked at, back then we had infrared cameras.
00:40:31.000They're different today, but back then you had to pour liquid nitrogen into the camera to cool the sensor down and get these infrared images you've seen.
00:40:41.000But it never got, no matter what the load was on the reactor, it never got above the ambient temperature, which is impossible.
00:40:52.000Pulling out huge amounts of power and nothing ever gets warm.
00:40:57.000We tried measuring magnetic fields and there was nothing there.
00:41:01.000So we started playing around with the emission from the emitters, the gravity wave itself, and saw what we could do with it and how it was focused.
00:41:10.000So we really spent all our time Just trying to see what the stuff can do and what we can control.
00:41:19.000So you were seeing what it could do, but you couldn't ever figure out how it was doing it?
00:42:59.000Well, quietly because it produced a little corona discharge from the bottom.
00:43:08.000A corona discharge is kind of a high voltage brush, little bluish glow discharge.
00:43:12.000As it was lifting off the ground you can hear a slight hiss sound.
00:43:15.000Now as soon as it cleared the ground by about five or ten feet, maybe even less than that, the hissing stopped and the blue glow disappeared.
00:43:24.000It lifted off quietly and then it hovered silently, if you want to be specific.
00:44:17.000Every single thing about the craft and the way they operated didn't make any sense to us.
00:44:24.000I mean, that's something we talked about for a while after.
00:44:27.000Why should the frequency bend around the craft?
00:44:30.000Well, you really have to look at the way the gravity wave comes out of the craft.
00:44:35.000The reactor's in the center, and there's a waveguide that goes up to the top.
00:44:39.000There's actually a small appendage that sticks out of the top of the craft, and it produces a heart-shaped gravitational distortion around the craft.
00:44:47.000Now, if the craft is sitting in the air and you walk underneath it and look up, you actually cannot see the craft.
00:45:42.000Fast forward to some months later, I did have the test flight schedule of the craft.
00:45:50.000Now they had times they had designated high performance tests.
00:45:54.000This obviously wasn't one that was a high performance test.
00:45:58.000The high-performance test goes above the mountain range, and they do much more radical moves with the thing.
00:46:05.000Look, this is a prized item, and they're not doing anything like taking it out of the atmosphere or flying around to other countries or anything like that.
00:46:13.000They just play with this thing right over the test site.
00:46:17.000But they were doing some radical moves with it.
00:46:19.000And since I had the test flight schedule, statistically...
00:46:25.000The amount of traffic in the surrounding areas on the highway was lowest on Wednesdays and that's why Dennis told us that all the test flights occurred only on Wednesdays because it'd be the least chance that anyone would see what's going on.
00:46:41.000And this was before the government had expanded the forbidden territory around Area 51 and Papoose Lake and all that stuff, right?
00:46:51.000Yeah, I think that occurred after my story came out.
00:46:55.000Then people started going up on the mountaintops and trying to look down into there and they kind of freaked out and then did the land grab and pushed everybody back.
00:47:04.000But yeah, I think all that occurred long after, I'm sorry, that I came out.
00:47:10.000So you're working there and while you're working there, you're under this crazy schedule.
00:47:16.000Forgive me for explaining your story, but you would get these phone calls, you would have to go to the airport at 11pm, and your wife started thinking that you were having an affair.
00:47:33.000Now, I did give my permission to have, as part of the security clearance process, I gave written permission to have the phones monitored and things of that sort, so they weren't doing any covert stuff.
00:47:49.000You know, with any Q clearance, which is civilian top secret clearance, or military top secret clearance, they go talk to friends and, you know, places you've been, make sure you're not connected to foreign countries, but, you know, monitoring your phone is nothing unusual.
00:48:04.000However, they insisted that, you know, you don't even talk to your loved one, to your partner, to your wife, whatever, about what's going on.
00:48:14.000So she was essentially in the dark and didn't know the phone was being monitored.
00:48:19.000Well, part of the security clearance is that not only do you not have any connections to foreign countries and aren't a maniac, but you have to have a stable home life too.
00:48:31.000Well, she started having an affair with a flight instructor Now, they were monitoring this on the phone and they knew it and I didn't.
00:48:39.000So they stopped me coming in and their attitude at the time was, we need to see how this is going to play out and if Lazar is going to get a little weird or anything.
00:48:50.000So let's just, you know, hold him off from coming in and, you know, see what happens.
00:48:58.000And they explained this to you, what was happening?
00:49:00.000Well, after the fact, yeah, because time kind of went on and there were guys that were following me around and I started getting a little concerned going, well, Chit, are they booting me out of the project?
00:49:14.000And if so, they're not just going to let me hang out at home and go get a new job knowing what I know.
00:49:21.000So as time went on, I started getting a little concerned and I took my closest friends and just kind of got together and I said, hey...
00:50:36.000You know, to see how his video looks now, but as far as video evidence, I mean, we are talking 80s camp, where the most important thing is the human story here.
00:50:45.000Everybody that he took up there on three separate occasions, they don't all like each other.
00:50:53.000They saw something that night at the exact point in time and space that Balbazar said, and remember, this is 17, 15, 17 miles south of Area 51. No one even knew really about Area 51. We're talking Papoose Lake, and they all agree.
00:51:06.000They saw something that night they had never seen before and they've never seen since right when he said it.
00:51:11.000So that's one of the six things where I'm like, how did he know?
00:53:25.000This is how some of those recent sightings of Commander David Fravor, I'm sure you've heard of the Tic Tac UFO, I mean he describes exactly, the thing operates exactly the way I was describing.
00:53:36.000That's why he was interested to talk to me.
00:53:40.000But we saw this and You know, on the way home, it's like, hey, we got away with it.
00:53:46.000We should try it again the next test flight day.
00:54:09.000And, you know, what was funny was we went out there and my friend Gene Huff and I were leaning on the front of a vehicle.
00:54:19.000And just for some reason, we just started talking shit.
00:54:24.000Like, well, I hope they realize that...
00:54:29.000I don't remember what we were saying, but, you know, something about attacking the base or something along those lines and stealing the craft or something like that.
00:54:39.000And then about 20 feet in front of us, we see a little green light.
00:54:47.000And unbeknownst to us, now it's pitch black, you can't see your hand in front of your face, there were a bunch of guards standing right out there and they had a night vision scope where they were like from here to the wall looking at us, listening to us, and the guy dropped it and the scope rolled over to us and you could see the green screen.
00:55:04.000We turn the lights on and all these guys are there.
00:55:07.000So we did incredibly stupid stuff and got caught as we should have.
00:55:13.000So when they catch you and they bring you in, then what happens?
00:55:18.000The following day, I went to Indian Springs Air Force Base, which is kind of a defunct base that they used to use at the nuclear test site.
00:55:28.000And this is when they brought out the transcript of the phone call with my wife.
00:55:36.000And, you know, they sat me down and we said, you know, when we meant to keep this secret, we meant you can't tell your friends, right?
00:55:43.000You know, and it just being sarcastic and trying to...
00:56:20.000And this is kind of when the most stressful part started.
00:56:24.000Because you're realizing that you're being monitored.
00:56:26.000Yeah, now I know not only am I being monitored, but now I know I'm in trouble.
00:56:31.000And it wasn't a short time after that that I contacted, you know, at that time the only investigative reporter I had heard of in Las Vegas was George Knapp and, you know, told him some of the story because I had no idea what the hell was going to happen at that point.
00:56:47.000So George Knapp tries to dissect your story, tries to find holes in it, Tells it, puts it online, and makes everybody aware of it, and that's how I found out about it.
00:58:04.000And it's on Netflix right now, if anybody wants to check it out.
00:58:08.000And if you're one of those people like me, who, you know, I've always loved the idea of UFOs.
00:58:14.000I became extremely weary talking to people who are UFO believers and UFO fanatics because there's so many of them that are full of shit.
00:58:21.000And not just full of shit, they're childishly delirious.
00:58:26.000Like the way they talk about things, I mean there's so many people that I'm in contact, they reach me in the night and they explain to me what we're doing to the ocean is wrong.
00:58:46.000We've had people literally camp out on our front lawn, and in some ways I can relate to some of these people.
00:58:54.000Maybe some of them did really have some kind of experience or saw something, and all their friends think they're crazy, but hey, now there's this guy I heard on the radio, and at least he knows I'm not full of shit, so I've got to talk to him.
00:59:08.000And so most of the correspondence I get are people trying to get a hold of me going, Bob, you've got to listen to me.
00:59:16.000I'm driving from Oklahoma or whatever.
00:59:19.000But some of them are just fucking batshit crazy and they're frightening.
00:59:24.000There's a lot of schizophrenics that are involved in the conspiracy world.
00:59:28.000There's a lot of people that have real issues.
00:59:30.000Joe, it would be a disservice to your audience to not say that We have to look at what's going on now and understand.
00:59:38.000I've heard on your show a bunch of stuff about what's going on now.
00:59:42.000And to not really understand what's going on now, you can't see Bob's story in the correct light after 30 years.
00:59:53.000The biggest being that things like the Tic Tac UFO case that came out, I've heard people even on the show say, oh, there's a glitch in the radar.
01:00:57.000They announced through the New York Times about AATIP. But OSAP, these acronyms, OSAP, Advanced Aerospace Weapon Systems Applications Program, who cares?
01:01:21.000Because in the documents, the DIA documents that George Knapp released, that everybody said was fake till now they know is real, We're good to go.
01:02:44.000If people don't know this now and they think this stuff is fantasy, this part of it, that we're studying it, that we take it seriously, we're spending money on it, and that we're getting great data from visual pilots to radar.
01:03:10.000If you don't understand that this is happening, you're just behind the curve because you don't have the information because of the stigma that you're talking about.
01:03:18.000I saw you get totally upset with the UFO topic.
01:03:21.000I met you first when you got totally upset with the UFO topic.
01:04:40.000But they built a gigantic gravity wave detector, and pretty much...
01:04:47.000That there are such things as gravity waves.
01:04:50.000First observation of gravitational waves, it says it was in 2016. Okay, the first observation of gravitational waves was made on 14th of September 2015, as announced by the LIGO and Virgo collaborators on the 11th of February 2016. Previously,
01:05:08.000gravitational waves had only been inferred indirectly via their effect on the timing of pulsars in binary star systems.
01:05:17.000The waveform connected by both LIGO observatories matched the predictions of general relativity for a gravitational wave.
01:05:32.000Emanating from the inward spiral and merger of a pair of black holes around 36 and 29 solar masses and the subsequent ring down of the single resulting black hole.
01:05:47.000Well, I mean, in the 80s, the predominant theory was gravity is produced by gravitons, theoretical particles.
01:06:01.000So the thought is that the way we experience gravity, it's based on mass, which is why the moon, which is roughly one-quarter the size of the Earth, has one-sixth of the Earth's gravity.
01:06:13.000So there's some sort of a computation you can make based on mass.
01:07:04.000What you're talking about here, the fact that they just discovered this four years ago, that this is a wave.
01:07:12.000As much as we know and as impressed as we are, as we should be, with how much more technologically advanced we are than every other creature on this planet, We're still, in many ways, in the adolescence of technological innovation.
01:07:29.000And when you're talking about this binary star system and zeta reticuli, and who knows how much longer these things have been around than us?
01:07:38.000Who knows what their evolutionary cycle's been?
01:07:48.000Now, I'm not in – believe it or not, I'm not into UFOs.
01:07:52.000I don't follow stories or, you know – Even after your experiences?
01:07:56.000No, I'm fascinated with the technology and I – it really – it irks me like every night I go to sleep that, you know, I don't – That it was my own doing, essentially, that prevented me from continuing on in the project.
01:08:12.000To be on that cutting edge of technology is so alluring to me.
01:08:20.000By the same token, I don't really care that there's aliens or where they come from.
01:08:25.000I mean, the prize is the technology, and that's what I'm fascinated by.
01:08:28.000So I don't listen to UFO stories and that sort of thing.
01:10:05.000Admiral Wilson meets with this scientist and they have this discussion, oddly enough, at special projects at EG&G. And if I remember, the document is from 2001. I'm telling everybody right now, it's real.
01:10:29.000They put the technology away, and then they bring it back out and see if material science has caught up and if they can make any progress.
01:10:37.000So this document kind of talks about this process.
01:10:40.000The big thing I get from it, and a lot of it's vindicating to Bob, and one of the things it's vindicating, besides the EG&G thing, Is that private industry...
01:11:18.000What is said in that document specifically?
01:11:19.000It's between a scientist and an admiral that are sitting and they're having a meeting and they're talking about the search for the UFO subject, the search to get special access program access to all of these different things like reverse engineering programs.
01:11:37.000So in this document, they talk about it.
01:11:40.000I believe that this document, the person that went was employed by Robert Bigelow, you know, one of the guys that has a couple of orbiting satellites and all that stuff.
01:11:48.000He's the guy who owns Skinwalker Ranch.
01:11:55.000There's a new owner, and I interviewed him for my other film, But there's a new owner, and you'll be hearing a lot more about that soon.
01:12:02.000But there's stuff that you'll be hearing about Skinwalker Ranch soon because there's a new owner.
01:12:08.000Anyway, the whole point of this insertion here is just that that document kind of validates a lot of this idea Bob just said, that they make a little progress, then they can't go anywhere.
01:12:27.000I think Bob should speak on this, but it's the material science.
01:12:30.000Yeah, it's really where physics is, so I can see them doing that.
01:12:34.000I mean, I didn't have any information on that, but I think what, you know, George uncovered is probably accurate, that, you know, we try and do what we can, and once we reach a roadblock going, we really can't figure it out, it's just...
01:15:49.000And that's what that $22 million, by the way, they spend more money on Viagra every year than they do studying UFOs, if it was just this program, which I think is funny.
01:15:56.000They probably make a lot more money from it.
01:16:44.000The point is that $22 million was to study that.
01:16:46.000Then we have ATIP, which is like an auxiliary kind of program of military settings, like Commander Fravers and that sort of thing.
01:16:53.000This document is just one of those things that has now come forward that through the Bigelow studies, it was government funded, and then it was personally funded, and then government funded.
01:17:04.000It's just one of those things that kind of shakes you because you got this military guy who can't get access because of the private industry that's holding these non-terrestrial materials.
01:18:22.000I know you've got to keep the technology secret, but you can't not tell everybody that this stuff is going on, that we have, you know, actual hardware from another civilization.
01:18:34.000You know, probably the biggest one there ever was.
01:18:37.000And George said, you know, today's the day we've got to put it on the news or something to that effect.
01:18:44.000And when it came right down to the time to air it, I changed my mind and I said, We're not doing it.
01:18:51.000And that's what turned into the famous wrestling match between me and George trying to get the tape, but he won because he was a bigger guy.
01:19:18.000That was the last communication I had with him.
01:19:22.000And what has happened to you since then?
01:19:24.000After that, a lot of people I've known either were audited by the IRS. Anybody I know that had clearances that worked in secure programs had the clearances pulled.
01:19:42.000One of them A friend, one of mine that Jeremy knows.
01:20:46.000How is this going to make things better?
01:20:48.000Well, because you're getting a real chance to explain yourself in a way that's going to make people who not only work in the government, people that are Police officers and firefighters and first responders and doctors and scientists, they're going to emphasize.
01:21:06.000Empathize and empathize with what it must be like to be a person like you in your 20s who gets thrust into this world unknowingly and confronted with One of the most,
01:21:21.000if not the most, important discovery in the history of human beings, the big question, are we alone?
01:24:52.000At some point, it wasn't our group, but at some point, there was a big discovery made.
01:24:58.000And this did not happen when I was there.
01:25:01.000It happened in between my trips to there.
01:25:03.000And after that, apparently, they decided it was just too cool to share with anybody, and the Russians were never allowed back on the base after that.
01:25:11.000But you don't know what that discovery was?
01:25:31.000See, that was the thing that always freaked me out, was why, if something was so superior to human beings, it's almost like visiting an ant colony.
01:25:55.000Yeah, that doesn't make sense to me either.
01:25:58.000So they were either in the same area or, you know, one had clues to where others were.
01:26:04.000I mean, I don't know, you have to fill that in there, but you're right.
01:26:07.000I mean, nine of them, that's a big dig if it was archaeological.
01:26:12.000Well, one of the more recent sightings and these discussions that have been coming out recently from Air Force pilots and Navy pilots, they've been talking about things happening in the ocean.
01:26:24.000And that something literally goes into the water or something maybe below the surface of the water.
01:26:43.000Commander Fravor visually saw what looked like, similar to a cross, some object.
01:26:49.000So it's like as if you have some coral under the water and it's breaking over.
01:26:53.000The Tic Tac is doing this crazy maneuver that defies, it's a gravity propelled system.
01:26:58.000They saw it in the sky before they saw it in the water, right?
01:27:00.000Yeah, so there was radar that was picking these things coming down from 80,000 feet and dropping to 50 feet in less than a second.
01:27:42.000It's definitive that it's not a conventional anything by its movements, but there's a pocket of cold air around a propulsion source.
01:27:52.000So this object, by the way, sat stationary.
01:27:54.000For days, if not weeks, it sat stationary.
01:27:58.000Yeah, they found it 11 hours later, and they were saying there's no way this thing, using that kind of energy to go that fast, could just hover for 11 hours.
01:28:23.0002015. West Coast, 2004, was the Tic Tac.
01:28:27.000The disturbance on the water, Commander Fravor believes there was something under that water that was causing that disturbance when the Tic Tac was coming around and doing it.
01:28:35.000With inside the people that are studying this, they're thinking maybe the Tic Tac system was causing the disturbance, but the USO, an identified submerged object that he visually saw, the whole interesting thing about that is, I would love Bob to describe it,
01:28:52.000is why it doesn't matter if these craft are in space, air, or water.
01:29:27.000You know, one of the things I think in the gimbal video, the way the craft that we worked on flies is it doesn't fly like a conventional aircraft does, and it doesn't fly like a flying saucer would in a 1950s movie.
01:30:15.000It behaves exactly like the craft that I worked on.
01:30:18.000So much like we have different shaped aircrafts and fighter jets and cars, they probably have different shapes of these objects that operate under similar principles.
01:30:30.000Right, but they all have the same power source.
01:30:34.000And we're also dealing with, if you think about the laws of technological progression, you know, you think of Moore's Law and you think of how things accelerate, you've got to think that if this civilization is who knows how many years more advanced than we are,
01:31:06.000Well, the only reason I say that is because Look, everyone doesn't necessarily start at a steam engine and go to an internal combustion engine and then, you know, electric power, nuclear power, and go up the ladder that we came on.
01:31:22.000You know, if this stuff is true about the origin and the binary star system, and they have heavier elements that we don't have, and this element, stable element 115 is a naturally occurring material, Maybe that's the first thing they started experimenting with.
01:31:37.000And the version of their steam engine, their first product, was something that operated like this.
01:31:43.000And actually when they came to Earth to look around or whatever, they were amazed at the stuff we were doing.
01:31:49.000These guys burned stuff and squirted out the back to go forward.
01:31:52.000So who says they follow any kind of normal progression like that?
01:31:57.000My thought was if you went back to the 1400s and then you went from 1400 to 1500, you're not going to see that much of a difference technologically.
01:32:20.000So if you think about what they had in 1988 and you think about what they probably have in 2019, just logically, it seems like they would advance.
01:33:03.000You can make machines out of flesh, right?
01:33:05.000So a cyborg or a cybernetic organism is just that, you know, that's what a lot of people think those, like, gray things are, you know, that people call the grays.
01:33:42.000You see Australopithecus or depictions of, you know, ancient hominids, and then you go to human beings.
01:33:48.000One of the things you see is bigger heads and weaker bodies.
01:33:50.000Well, you see a clear progression of evolution, too, where something like that, I would lean towards a synthetic organism because it looks like it was made for a specific task.
01:34:01.000There's no reproductive organs, so, I mean, that almost kind of leaves out any kind of, you know, physical evolution.
01:34:55.000Maybe they're serving different purposes.
01:34:57.000They're doing different things like we'd use different tools.
01:35:00.000And I want to be clear, the reason I know that memo is real is because I spent a lot of time with Dr. Edgar Mitchell, a sixth man to walk on the moon, last guy to film him before he died, right?
01:35:10.000That's how I know I don't want any journalists thinking I got it from anywhere else.
01:35:47.000And this trend seems to be amplified by our technological progression, our lack of need for muscle strength and our lack of need for violence, and we're moving in a society to try to get away from all the things that we think are abhorrent about human beings and the terrible behaviors that we have.
01:36:05.000If we one day do give birth to some sort of an artificial being, like Marshall McLuhan's quote, we are the sex organs of the machine world.
01:38:39.000And I think it's attached to materialism in some sort of a strange way, because so many people work so hard to get new things.
01:38:46.000God, that seems so illogical and preposterous, and it makes people unhappy, and depression's on the rise, but nobody seems to be able to stop it.
01:42:26.000Ted Kaczynski, they cooked his fucking brain when he was at Harvard.
01:42:30.000And then when he went over to Berkeley and became a professor, his goal was to make enough money so that he could...
01:42:35.000Just implement this program and live in the woods and then write his manifesto and start killing people that were involved in propagating technology.
01:42:42.000He was expunged from the Harvard logs, by the way.
01:42:46.000This is something my friend just called me about.
01:42:48.000So there's like this private library and they used to print people's names whenever they were part of a university and he was one of a handful of people that were expunged from it.
01:42:58.000I want to jump back to the one thing, Joe.
01:43:01.000I want to be very careful with that word, conspiracy theorist.
01:43:04.000What I was saying to you was, we terraform our Earth, right?
01:43:32.000So, the question is, what is that about?
01:43:35.000And I'm just looking at what we do with what you're describing with technology and terrifying.
01:43:39.000It's much more likely that the same way we observe chimps, and we observe that they are now in the Stone Age, that they're observing us, and that they're recognizing that there is a pattern, that there's steps that happen.
01:43:52.000I mean, Carl Sagan talked about the different levels of civilization, and that if we don't get past certain levels, we're never going to reach We're in this warring, polluting, pillaging civilization.
01:44:28.000There's all these things that were involved in the creation of this thing that is really outside of your grasp of understanding, but yet you have the ability to use it.
01:44:44.000Without the intellect to craft and engineer and manifest these creations, you just have access to them because you have paper or you have Bitcoin or you have whatever the fuck you're using.
01:44:57.000Now you have almost no responsibility.
01:45:00.000You could just flippantly use these things, which is why we were very childlike in our actions.
01:45:08.000We haven't had to earn the responsibility.
01:45:11.000We haven't had to earn these things that we've been able to have, and you've only been able to have them because other people have innovated and spent Ungodly amounts of time and effort and focus in the lab to create these things.
01:45:24.000And then they've all put them together.
01:45:26.000And then what's the reason to put them together?
01:47:05.000You think in terms of your own life, right?
01:47:08.000You think in terms of what you want and what you need right now.
01:47:12.000We are, in many ways, this combination of this weird, primitive, ape-like thing with The ability to calculate and manipulate our world and our environment that makes us wholly unique.
01:47:25.000On top of that, with existential angst and fear.
01:47:47.000And then one day, they're going to be able to hit that switch, and this life will be born out of innovation and thinking and progress and technology.
01:47:57.000And more than likely, it's probably going to be what we're seeing that these things are, that you're observing.
01:48:28.000You know, I went to see Brian Cox's, he has this amazing live show with Robin Ince where they have these LED screens, these huge screens with high-resolution depictions of the cosmos.
01:48:42.000And one of the most mind-blowing things...
01:48:45.000Was he has this large-scale image of the universe, and it shows all the individual galaxies of the universe, and it just keeps moving through all these galaxies in three dimensions.
01:49:55.000I mean, that's one of the speculations about that object that they find outside the Kuiper belt that they think is ten times larger than Earth.
01:50:02.000They think it might have been at one point in time a star.
01:50:05.000But this uniformity that you see, why wouldn't we think that that has its same implications biologically?
01:50:12.000That there's some sort of a biological uniformity, and that this happens, given the right sets of circumstances?
01:51:06.000We're not talking about making a time machine like in science fiction, but we're talking about, you know, small distortions, intentional distortions of time and how that can be used, you know, as a...
01:51:23.000These, again, were just those small briefings that I read.
01:51:27.000But, again, I don't really like to talk about those because I don't have any information on them, and it was just, you know, small briefings.
01:51:34.000But you told Commander Fravor that what he saw might have been a time dilation...
01:51:39.000Well, it could be, because gravity affects time.
01:51:42.000You know, space-time, I'm sure you've heard of that.
01:51:48.000What Commander Fraber saw as he was in the F-18 approaching it, he described it as a ping-pong ball in a cup and shaking it back and forth.
01:52:47.000They noticed it on radar 60 seconds after it left Commander Fravor, but it was at his cap point, which is the next point he was destined to go to, 60 miles away.
01:52:57.000And in 60 seconds on radar, the same object ends up there.
01:53:40.000And that's, I mean, that's well documented.
01:53:44.000So that's a pretty shocking piece of information.
01:53:48.000What's fascinating to me, too, is that you were discussing this, the way this reactor worked, and that these things were not really connected to No, nothing is connected.
01:54:22.000I mean, for other people that don't know what you're saying, he wanted to send wireless electricity through the sky, and Westinghouse was like, get the fuck out of here with that.
01:54:30.000Like when anybody could just pull electricity out of the sky?
01:55:27.000You can turn lighters on and heaters from all over the place with no wires, but it would stop modern electronics.
01:55:33.000And if we became dependent on it, it would almost be like our dependence on fossil fuels, although it's destructive.
01:55:38.000It's very difficult for us to get off the nipple.
01:55:41.000It would have changed the course of how we developed, which is so interesting when you talk about if a civilization of the star system didn't even start with fossil fuels.
01:55:49.000They had 115 naturally on their planet.
01:55:51.000And they're like, cool, anti-gravity is pretty awesome.
01:55:53.000I think it's important that that actually happened.
01:55:57.000It might have been stopped in its tracks for a reason.
01:56:05.000I think it's incredibly difficult for us to imagine technological progression under another timeline other than the one that we've experienced.
01:56:40.000But we don't see it in terms of technological innovation as we're the only one that's intelligent that can innovate.
01:56:46.000We have intelligent creatures but they're in the ocean.
01:56:49.000The only other thing that are like us are dolphins and orcas and whales.
01:56:52.000And they don't have the ability to manipulate their environment.
01:56:55.000And subsequently, because they don't have the ability to manipulate their environment, we put them in fish tanks.
01:57:01.000And we're like, get in the tank, do some tricks.
01:57:03.000You know, the only thing he saw in the craft, if we were considering Bob's story, the only thing that he saw in the craft that he related to, that looked like a human could make, was this honeycomb hatch.
01:57:14.000And I always love that because you're like obsessed with this thing that you could recognize.
01:57:19.000You know, I only focus on that because it was the one thing that I understood how it worked.
01:57:31.000Well, you know, if you have a six-pack of beer and you take out the cardboard dividers, set it on the table, you can put a lot of pressure on the top.
01:57:42.000But if you push it from the sides, it collapses flat.
01:57:45.000So it was something like that in a honeycomb shape that was essentially some sort of sheet metal, and you could walk on that in the upper layer, but if you took the corner, stuck your finger in, and pushed, it collapsed and made an entryway.
01:58:01.000So I thought that was a really unique, I'd never seen that before, and it was the only thing in the craft that made absolute sense to me.
01:58:07.000I said, ah, we can make that, and all that is is a hatchway.
01:58:11.000Was there any discussion about the materials that were used to make the craft?
01:58:16.000I'm sure there was, but that was the metallurgy division.
01:58:23.000I don't even know if it was metal or it was ceramic.
01:58:26.000I think there's a fine line between the two.
01:58:30.000Now, one of the things that's happened to you that has allowed people to discredit you was there's obviously been some sort of an effort to erase your past.
01:58:41.000Some sort of an effort to erase your education history, your employment history at Los Alamos.
01:58:48.000In fact, the only way your employment history was proven at Los Alamos is someone got a list, a directory of the employees from the past and read into it and you were on that list.
01:58:57.000So it proved that you worked there even though people were trying to deny it and they were trying to use that as a way to discredit you, that you never did work at Los Alamos.
02:01:08.000It was a way, you know, this was before fingerprint scanners and, you know, anything of...
02:01:15.000Any high-resolution scanner at that time.
02:01:18.000So what it was was a device that had a little picture of a hand on a glass plate with pins in it, so you could jam your hand in there.
02:01:26.000And there was a bright light above it and a sensor underneath.
02:01:29.000And when you put your hand in there, the light would turn on, and it would measure the bones in your finger because the light shone through your bones.
02:02:15.000I found it through a good friend of mine named Tyler Rogoway, and he had some good sources inside of Area 52 where they also used these for the stealth program right around that time.
02:02:26.000So now I've got all these people that worked within...
02:02:28.000Who, you know, said only if you're in certain programs would we use this technology.
02:03:21.000So what's so funny is that this technology, even in the Area 52 where they'd use them for Tonopah, one of the guys who will go on camera with me, he will do an interview with me.
02:04:19.000And have they verified that they went to school with you?
02:04:21.000Well, I gave Jeremy some names, but the reason I don't say these names publicly is because every single time I mention a name, somebody gets in trouble.
02:05:31.000Because they're always putting it into that box instead of going...
02:05:36.000Instead of just separating their ego, they're playing a game, and the game is calling bullshit.
02:05:42.000I want to call bullshit, and I'm going to line up all these reasons why it's bullshit, and I'm going to ignore anything that might be contrary to that definition.
02:05:49.000Every time I'm thinking I'm going to catch him in something, you know, all along this process, I found Dr. Krangel.
02:05:55.000He came forward and said, I was in security briefings with Bob Lazar, the physicist at Los Alamos.
02:07:50.000When they do security clearances, they go through all your friends and family.
02:07:54.000And they go to your friends and family, yeah.
02:07:55.000So this is to Bob and I had people come to me for a friend of mine that's serving and they're doing a security clearance for him and even though I'm like the UFO guy, they did, you know, the FBI will come and visit my house and make sure that they talk about my friend and they lift a little card.
02:08:10.000And when my wife told him to get away because he didn't know who they were, they left a little card.
02:08:43.000He admitted to me he was dodging George Knapp because when George said his name on the news, he dropped his fork into his steak or into his potatoes or whatever, and he's looking at his wife.
02:09:16.000Well, that's one of the reasons why when you and me and Jeremy and George Knapp had that conversation on the phone, I said, I think what we can do with this podcast is important.
02:09:32.000I think it's important for people to hear this from you in a very clear, just very concise way.
02:09:42.000And if you examine all the information that you've said today, if you look at all the things that the detractors have said, if you look at all of the new recent evidence that's coming out and all these really high-level people in the military and the government that are discussing this,
02:10:01.000It gives you far more credibility than you would have had in the 1980s when this came out.
02:12:09.000What really annoys me are the people that say, you know, you guys just came up with the story to make a bunch of money or get a bunch of attention.
02:13:01.000If you think somehow we came up with this thing, then you've got to tell me why we did it.
02:13:08.000Well, you've done a great job of making sure you have your bases covered in that regard, that you haven't profited off of this, and like you said, that you have donated whatever money that came your way to science programs.
02:13:18.000I mean, it doesn't make any sense any other way.
02:13:23.000I mean, what I've gotten out of here is what I thought I was going to get out of here when I watched the documentary, that what you're saying makes sense.
02:13:31.000It doesn't make sense that it's bullshit.
02:13:33.000That happened exactly like I said it did, Joe.
02:13:38.000In closing, is there anything else you'd like to say?
02:13:42.000No, I can't think of anything other than really don't come and try to visit me.
02:13:48.000Well, I know that you have paid a huge personal cost to get this information out and I mean maybe you didn't understand what that cost would have been when you first initially came forward with the story but over the past 30 years it's been immense.
02:14:03.000It's been great and I just want to thank you for that.
02:14:06.000And thank you for all these people that would not have gotten this information and would not have really had this story any other way.