The Joe Rogan Experience - November 15, 2019


Joe Rogan Experience #1385 - Paul Stamets


Episode Stats

Length

2 hours and 11 minutes

Words per Minute

160.69748

Word Count

21,196

Sentence Count

1,753

Misogynist Sentences

15

Hate Speech Sentences

14


Summary

Mushroom hats have been around for a long time, and they ve been around in the wild for a longer time. But what are they really made of? And how did they get there? And why are they on the verge of extinction? To find out, we talk to the people who make these hats, and find out how they got there. Plus, we hear about a new invention that could help keep the industry alive: German felt. Guests: Dr. David Lebovitch, an expert on mushroom hat making, and Paul, the man who makes them. Thanks to callers David and Paul. Thanks also to our sponsor, Fomis Fomentarius, for sponsoring this episode of Mythology. And thanks also to David's friend and colleague, Paul, for sending us the photos of the mushroom hats he's making. If you like them, please tell a friend about them and we'll get them on the show. Logo by Courtney DeKorte. Theme by Mavus White. Music by PSOVOD and tyops. We'll be looking out for you in the next week's mailbag. Thank you for listening and supporting Mythology! and Good Mythology by The Mythology Podcast. Merry Christmas and Good Morning America. by . by the Mythology Project, by Cruncher. and , and , by Darnell McElmore and . . . by Crovan, and by Mr. Martin, is by Dr. John, and Mr. , also by John, and his , is ( ) by . and . is by , & by Paul, & & his by David, , etc., by Tom, and the rest is ,and by Peter, etc., and ) in this episode by Thanks to . , thank you, Paul AND thanks to , Paul, and this is . And can be found here . , by and his wife, and also ! or And so on, and so much more. thanks, and thanks, in the podcast so much on , so much love, so on to you, and all


Transcript

00:00:03.000 And we're live.
00:00:03.000 Hello, Paul.
00:00:04.000 Hey there.
00:00:05.000 What's happening?
00:00:05.000 How are you, sir?
00:00:06.000 Very well.
00:00:06.000 How are you?
00:00:06.000 And you have newfangled mushroom hats.
00:00:08.000 These are surprisingly durable.
00:00:10.000 So think about these mushroom hats.
00:00:13.000 You would think, oh, it's going to fall apart on your fingers.
00:00:15.000 But no, it's quite pliable.
00:00:17.000 It's quite pliable and known as German felt.
00:00:20.000 And this allowed the Iceman, Otzi, to be able to travel into the Alps.
00:00:26.000 It was a fire starter mushroom.
00:00:27.000 Really?
00:00:28.000 And this actually revolutionized warfare because it helped Flint's spark guns ignite the gunpowder.
00:00:34.000 Really?
00:00:35.000 So it's Amadou and it comes from a birch polypore mushroom which is a subject of much of our research these days.
00:00:42.000 Now, when this grows in the wild, what does it look like?
00:00:45.000 Because you've fashioned it into this hat or had someone fashion it.
00:00:50.000 That's what it looks like?
00:00:51.000 Yeah, some ladies in Transylvania.
00:00:53.000 You see that?
00:00:53.000 Yeah.
00:00:54.000 It's called Fomis Fomentarius.
00:00:56.000 It allowed for the portability of fire.
00:00:58.000 There's no doubt we all came from Africa.
00:01:01.000 We went north and we discovered winter.
00:01:03.000 It just allowed for fire to be carried for days.
00:01:05.000 And so your clan was...
00:01:07.000 Absolutely depend upon fire starting in order to survive the winter and this mushroom allowed and enabled people to survive.
00:01:13.000 Wow, it's very light.
00:01:15.000 Is it edible?
00:01:17.000 Excellent question.
00:01:19.000 Hippocrates first described it in 400 BCE as an anti-inflammatory.
00:01:26.000 So in teas, yes, but that's very, very tough.
00:01:29.000 When you put it in ash and water, it delaminates into mycelium.
00:01:33.000 And so some ladies in Transylvania still make these, and it's a fabric that you pull, and that mushroom there will become one hat.
00:01:42.000 Or maybe more.
00:01:43.000 Really?
00:01:43.000 Because it just keeps on elongating.
00:01:45.000 And it's made of mycelium.
00:01:47.000 So explain the process.
00:01:48.000 How would you take this slab of mushroom that I have that looks like sort of like an enormous Hershey's Kiss...
00:01:54.000 And then you would put that?
00:01:56.000 In water with ash from a fire.
00:01:59.000 Why ash?
00:02:00.000 What is it?
00:02:01.000 Because it's highly alkaline.
00:02:02.000 And then it helps it separate.
00:02:04.000 It begins to delaminate.
00:02:05.000 And literally you start pulling us.
00:02:07.000 And it's a fabric that you keep on felting.
00:02:10.000 And so it's called German felt.
00:02:13.000 And it's been used for literally thousands of years.
00:02:15.000 And beekeepers actually use this for smoking hives.
00:02:19.000 We could, but it would be kind of bizarre.
00:02:24.000 We could flick a bit and you'd burn up one of these things.
00:02:30.000 It's just amazing how much this is a fuse.
00:02:34.000 And one spark on this...
00:02:37.000 You know, can ignite this entire thing over 15-20 minutes.
00:02:40.000 Really?
00:02:41.000 Yeah.
00:02:41.000 And so beekeepers use it for a smoking hot.
00:02:43.000 So if I lit this right now with this lighter?
00:02:45.000 Not that.
00:02:46.000 If you lit this...
00:02:47.000 The powder...
00:02:48.000 So the ash, the powdered ash, and then the water.
00:02:53.000 And then how does it flatten out and become...
00:02:56.000 Because it soaks up.
00:02:57.000 And mycelium makes mushrooms.
00:02:59.000 Mushrooms make mycelium.
00:03:01.000 And so when you soak this and then it gets soggy...
00:03:05.000 And then it tenderizes, and then you start breaking it and pulling it apart.
00:03:10.000 This is actually probably the first discovery because our ancestors noticed when insects were born to this mushroom.
00:03:14.000 Is that like the unprocessed version of it?
00:03:16.000 So this is what it's like on one side?
00:03:18.000 Well, it's just made into a little table thing, but it's the same thing basically.
00:03:22.000 So is this stitched together?
00:03:23.000 How did they make it like this?
00:03:25.000 Actually, it's using a wood glue, but that's all the natural colors.
00:03:30.000 Nothing's been added to it.
00:03:32.000 And so they just pull it apart, and it eventually gets flat.
00:03:36.000 I really want to make a coat.
00:03:38.000 That's my goal, is to have somebody make a coat for me.
00:03:40.000 Would it tear easily?
00:03:41.000 It's an amazingly strong tinsel fabric.
00:03:45.000 It absorbs water, but you have to be careful.
00:03:50.000 Someone's smoking a joint, or near a fire, or smoking a cigarette.
00:03:54.000 It happened to me.
00:03:55.000 I got a big hole in one of mine and I was smelling the smoke and my head was on fire.
00:04:00.000 More than once.
00:04:02.000 How many folks are out there wearing mushroom hats these days?
00:04:05.000 Just a few hundred.
00:04:06.000 And we've been trying to actually keep the industry alive by just inundating the – there was like 25 or 30 of these hat makers in Transylvania 10, 15 years ago.
00:04:19.000 Then it shrunk down to four or five.
00:04:20.000 And a friend of mine, David Summerlin, visited and said, Paul, this hat-making technology is on the verge of extinction.
00:04:26.000 So we just sort of inundated them with orders in order to build the industry and keep it alive.
00:04:32.000 How could someone contribute to that if they wanted to?
00:04:34.000 If people are listening to this, how could they buy one of these hats?
00:04:37.000 Well, if you go to my facebook.com slash Paul Stamets, I think his name is Mako, actually squatted on my page to sell the hats and more power to them.
00:04:48.000 Okay, cool.
00:04:50.000 Interesting.
00:04:51.000 But this mushroom is figuring to be very prominently important for saving bees.
00:04:58.000 And that's where our research has been astonishingly interesting lately.
00:05:04.000 And where is that thing that you brought in?
00:05:06.000 What is that?
00:05:07.000 What's going on there?
00:05:10.000 So to get some context to this, I think shamanistically, mushrooms, plants, animals become...
00:05:18.000 It's important because of a plurality, a multiplicity of benefits.
00:05:21.000 This is one example.
00:05:22.000 Not only revolutionized warfare, not only allowed for the portability of fire for us to save ourselves from the coldness, and we migrated into Europe from Africa.
00:05:30.000 Not only did beekeepers use it for smoking, but fly fishermen use it also for drying flies.
00:05:37.000 We have found that this mushroom is extremely powerful for reducing viruses that harm bees.
00:05:44.000 It's been described today in CNN, an insect apocalypse.
00:05:49.000 40% of insects are under threat.
00:05:53.000 This just came out.
00:05:55.000 This is really an all-hands-on-deck moment.
00:05:58.000 But I'm optimistic because I think we can find solutions in nature.
00:06:03.000 With my colleagues, and when I was here before, I talked about my work with the BioShield Biodefense Program, and these wood conchs are very strong in antiviral properties against flu viruses and herpes, etc.
00:06:16.000 I used these ideas and actually had a waking dream and I realized that the bees were being infected by mites with viruses and the deformed wing virus in particular is the worst virus.
00:06:31.000 And so I contacted Washington State University.
00:06:33.000 We started doing some research and I'm really, really happy because I love skeptics who become my supporters.
00:06:39.000 We published in Nature.
00:06:41.000 Only 7% of the articles submitted to Nature get published in the Nature Publication Ecosystem.
00:06:46.000 To this day are articles in the top 1% of all articles ever published in the Nature Publication Ecosystem.
00:06:53.000 Now that's phenomenal because that's the most credible scientific journal in the world.
00:06:57.000 There it is right that.
00:06:58.000 Extracts of polypore mushroom mycelia reduce viruses in honeybees.
00:07:03.000 And this mushroom, the amadou, reduces the deformed wing virus 800 times to 1. With one treatment, and then the reishi mushroom mycelium reduces the Lake Sinai virus more than 45,000 to 1. Now,
00:07:22.000 these are wood conks that grow in trees, and we all grew up with Winnie the Pooh.
00:07:26.000 But no one made the connection before me, apparently, that bees are attracted to rotted wood because of immunological benefit.
00:07:33.000 So amadou and reishi mushrooms, we found and we published in this article, that high significance, and I think the reason why this article is in the top 1% of all nature articles is that I've been able to present...
00:07:48.000 The theory, with proof now, that a natural product can have a broader bioshield of benefits than a pure pharmaceutical.
00:07:56.000 Up to this time, there's been no agents to produce viruses in bees.
00:08:00.000 Now, the deformed wing virus is being vectored by the varroa mite.
00:08:04.000 It came in 1984, and it injects viruses into bees.
00:08:08.000 And so it's like a dirty syringe.
00:08:10.000 And these viruses debilitate the bees and shorten their ability to fly.
00:08:14.000 Look at that poor bumblebee.
00:08:16.000 Oh wow, that's crazy.
00:08:17.000 I mean, that is so sad because that mumblebee can't fly.
00:08:21.000 Now bees can pollinate up to a thousand flowers a day.
00:08:25.000 And the average flight time of, like, honeybees used to be nine days, a thousand flowers a day.
00:08:31.000 Every almond you eat was visited by a bee.
00:08:33.000 So one bee can pollinate a thousand flowers a day.
00:08:37.000 Nine days was our pollination flight time.
00:08:39.000 Now it's been reshortened to four days.
00:08:41.000 So we lost by 50%.
00:08:43.000 In the CNN article that we just showed, in China now, they're hand-pollinating plants.
00:08:49.000 Flowers.
00:08:50.000 Yeah, with paint brushes.
00:08:52.000 Apples.
00:08:52.000 Yeah.
00:08:53.000 So apples, cherries, almonds, strawberries, tomatoes.
00:08:55.000 Because of the lack of bees.
00:08:57.000 Because of the absence of bees.
00:08:58.000 So it's really – it's all hands on deck.
00:09:02.000 This is – I'm really optimistic about the future because we have solutions in nature that we can now amplify and be able to deploy.
00:09:12.000 So one of my inventions – and I'm giving these away – 10,000 of these for free – I've come up with a citizen scientist bee feeder that puts these extracts Into sugar water, and we have a sign-up sheet.
00:09:29.000 It's for free.
00:09:30.000 It says fungi.com slash bees.
00:09:33.000 And we're going to give away the first 10,000 of these.
00:09:37.000 And this basically allows citizen scientists to help wild bees.
00:09:43.000 Because wild bees are given about 80% of the benefits.
00:09:45.000 And if you scroll down, there's a really, we just got the CGI done.
00:09:49.000 If you go all the way down and then click on that video, and we just...
00:09:54.000 So here's the bee feeder.
00:09:56.000 And this is available on YouTube, folks.
00:09:58.000 It says bee mushroomed feeder.
00:10:00.000 Bee mushroomed, all one word, and then feeder.
00:10:04.000 Yeah.
00:10:04.000 Now watch, that's the bees visiting, and they're taking the sugar water.
00:10:08.000 Look how much they're sucking out of it, those little greedy bastards.
00:10:11.000 That's crazy how it goes away so quickly.
00:10:13.000 And this is a maze, and bees are better at navigating mazes, and so you can see the bees going in and out.
00:10:18.000 My grandson, who was afraid of bees, was really fascinated by this, so I got him to do this.
00:10:23.000 And so these are something that we're going to make these available all over.
00:10:28.000 And then I want to create vertical gardens in apartment buildings because bees only fly up 200 feet.
00:10:33.000 You create ladders then, ecological ladders.
00:10:36.000 And then this is where the citizen scientists all over the world can take action to be able to help bees from collapsing.
00:10:43.000 And then you station these in neighborhoods for bumblebees, for other types of bees.
00:10:49.000 And then we have it with a Wi-Fi enabled device with solar panels.
00:10:53.000 And then we upload into the cloud all this data about bee pollination visits.
00:10:58.000 So we can create a metric on the baseline of bee pollination services.
00:11:02.000 So if you see bees that are declining and suddenly below a baseline.
00:11:07.000 In Oklahoma, two years ago, 84% of the beehives...
00:11:14.000 Now think if you're a cattle rancher and you lost 84% of your cattle.
00:11:18.000 So the idea is to help bees' immune system and if we create baselines with bee feeders, upload the data, and this becomes a new form of internet because they have Wi-Fi ability.
00:11:30.000 So it's a distributed network as well, but they...
00:11:32.000 Where is the Wi-Fi on that?
00:11:34.000 Well, we don't have...
00:11:34.000 This is in development right now.
00:11:36.000 We're working with a very, very large computer company who's making all the instrumentation and they're in the big data.
00:11:42.000 So we have a solar panel going in here.
00:11:44.000 We have blue LED lights.
00:11:47.000 The bees are attracted to blue light.
00:11:49.000 And they'll count the number of bees going in and out.
00:11:51.000 And since the bees are only flying out of daytime, we don't need a battery.
00:11:54.000 And so the solar power will then upload the data into the cloud.
00:11:59.000 We're good to go.
00:12:19.000 A lot.
00:12:20.000 I want to enable people with solutions that they can teach their children the importance of natural systems, and they can take action.
00:12:26.000 This seems like a great one.
00:12:27.000 I mean, I love this idea.
00:12:28.000 I think it's awesome.
00:12:29.000 I can afford to give away 10,000.
00:12:31.000 I talked to this computer company that everybody knows, but they asked me not to use their name, and they asked, how many do we need?
00:12:37.000 I said, about 10 billion.
00:12:40.000 Billion.
00:12:41.000 Billion.
00:12:41.000 I will do it up to my capacity and then I'm hoping that we're going to give these away for free and then eventually we'll create networks of hubs where I have now 40 patents on this and helping bees survive from these extracts but not in Indonesia,
00:13:02.000 not in India, not in Africa, not in China.
00:13:06.000 I'm going to commercialize it so the haves can help the have-nots.
00:13:11.000 And I think a lot of people want to help.
00:13:15.000 And we're thinking about different ways of doing this.
00:13:17.000 I'm open to all ideas, but the idea is to get maybe one person to sponsor 10 other people.
00:13:23.000 They have a distributed network, their own social media community, where they end up getting schools.
00:13:29.000 We will open source the code for 3D printers.
00:13:33.000 So that's really important for schools.
00:13:35.000 So the code is going to be open sourced.
00:13:38.000 But then if somebody wants to make millions of these and sell them, of course, I wouldn't be happy with that.
00:13:43.000 They have to work with me.
00:13:44.000 But individually...
00:13:44.000 We can empower individuals and schools to have the open source 3D printing codes.
00:13:50.000 We just have to make it trendy to have one of these in your house.
00:13:53.000 Like, look, I'm helping.
00:13:55.000 I'm helping the bees.
00:13:56.000 If we just did that, it would really make a big difference.
00:13:59.000 I know that's a gross way to look at it, but...
00:14:01.000 That works.
00:14:02.000 My grandson, Kai, is a perfect example.
00:14:04.000 He was shuddering in fear of coming near to this.
00:14:08.000 And my friend, Dr. Steve Shepard, entomologist, taught me something about bees I didn't know.
00:14:13.000 Bees are moving so fast.
00:14:15.000 And we look like we're moving slow.
00:14:17.000 But if you move really slow, the bees think you're a statue.
00:14:22.000 And so my grandson, Kai, I said, look at this.
00:14:27.000 And you can see underneath, you can see the bees going in and out.
00:14:29.000 I said to move really slow.
00:14:31.000 And then he got fascinated watching the bees.
00:14:33.000 So he overcame his fear of bees.
00:14:36.000 He was excited that he's helping bees survive.
00:14:38.000 Now we've created something intergenerationally.
00:14:41.000 And saving the bees is the number one bridge concept between conservatives and liberals.
00:14:46.000 Everyone wants to save the bees.
00:14:48.000 That's number one?
00:14:49.000 It's the number one bridge issue between amending the fence, so to speak, crossing the political and social divide.
00:14:56.000 Everybody wants to save the bees.
00:14:57.000 So this is something – this is an actionable solution.
00:15:00.000 And, you know, the scientific data out there is pretty disturbing.
00:15:05.000 You know, 75 percent of flying insects.
00:15:08.000 In the past 27 years, in a report from Germany that just came out, have disappeared.
00:15:13.000 Now, many of your listeners are out in the country.
00:15:16.000 You know, I grew up in the country.
00:15:18.000 Remember all the bug splatter you used to have against your windshield?
00:15:20.000 You don't see that anymore because the...
00:15:24.000 Insects are dying because of exposure to pesticides, monoculture.
00:15:29.000 When you have monoculture, you have what's called pollination deserts.
00:15:32.000 When you have lots of biodiversity and lots of plants and diversity, the plants are pollinating at different times of the season.
00:15:39.000 When you do to a monoculture, all the plants, like almonds, will all produce flowers all at once, and then there's no pollen available.
00:15:48.000 So the immune system of the bees, due to We're good to go.
00:16:00.000 We're good to go.
00:16:13.000 Is there a specific source of these viruses that they can isolate?
00:16:16.000 Are these a new thing?
00:16:18.000 Well, actually, there's a slide that shows the pandemic spread of these viruses throughout the world.
00:16:24.000 They came from Asia, and it's now a global pandemic.
00:16:28.000 All bees in the world are now infected with these viruses because when the infected honeybee, for instance, visits the flower, it leaves viral particles.
00:16:36.000 In the flower.
00:16:37.000 In the flower.
00:16:37.000 And then a wild bumblebee comes.
00:16:40.000 It visits it and it becomes infected.
00:16:42.000 So there is an unfortunate, I don't want to use the word perfect storm, it's a terrible storm of cofactors.
00:16:49.000 And because, you know, 80% of the benefit that farmers receive is from wild bees.
00:16:55.000 But we can't count them.
00:16:57.000 And you know, I have beehives and what happens in the colony collapse, you go out on Monday, the bees are happy, you go out on Thursday, they're all gone.
00:17:06.000 Really?
00:17:07.000 It's that quick?
00:17:08.000 That quick.
00:17:08.000 And it's not like there's hundreds of dead bees around your beehive.
00:17:11.000 They're just gone.
00:17:12.000 And there could be hundreds of pounds of honey and the bees, you know, they're gone.
00:17:18.000 So they go off somewhere to die?
00:17:19.000 What happens is because the newly hatched bees are called nurse bees and the nurse bees take care of the baby bees.
00:17:27.000 But when the colony senses there's not enough pollen and food to support the brood in the colony, The nurse bees are prematurely recruited to go out and find pollen, so they abandon the babies.
00:17:39.000 And then the varroa mites, they just go uncontrolled and they start injecting viruses.
00:17:46.000 And so there are other cofactors, just like when you get an infection from a viral infection, you can get bacterial infections.
00:17:54.000 And so there's a cascade of opportunistic infections as immunology is decreased.
00:18:02.000 Isn't there a contributing factor that had to do with cell phones as well?
00:18:08.000 I'm really glad you brought that up.
00:18:10.000 This is a contributing factor.
00:18:12.000 I have not seen convincing evidence.
00:18:14.000 It's a hypothesis that's not fully flushed out.
00:18:18.000 There are some people quite adamant in their belief in this, but I'm driven by science and data.
00:18:24.000 The frequency of cell phones There's an argument that's made.
00:18:32.000 It's not in the same cosine wave of the wavelengths that we experience in nature.
00:18:38.000 And so this is disruptive.
00:18:40.000 I understand that.
00:18:42.000 I'm still on the fence.
00:18:43.000 I'd like to see really strong data and scientific evidence of that.
00:18:47.000 But it's a hypothesis that needs to be tested.
00:18:50.000 That's why we're looking also at low-frequency, long-range communication systems.
00:18:57.000 I think I told you this story.
00:18:59.000 If I didn't, I apologize.
00:19:01.000 When we were on Fear Factor, we had a bee stunt.
00:19:04.000 We had to cover these people in bees.
00:19:06.000 And a local bee colony flew in to check out what was going on.
00:19:11.000 And those bees and the bees that were brought there met in the sky and worked it out.
00:19:17.000 And the beekeeper told us, okay, we have to shut down and everybody's got to back out of here.
00:19:21.000 So we had to shut down everything and back out for like about an hour, at least a half hour while these bees communicated with each other.
00:19:28.000 So they're flying, a giant swarm of them flying in the eye, in the air, trying to figure out why, hey, what are you guys here for?
00:19:35.000 What are you doing?
00:19:36.000 Why are you in our neighborhood?
00:19:37.000 Like, oh, we're not moving in.
00:19:38.000 We're just filming a TV show.
00:19:39.000 Like, they had to work it out.
00:19:40.000 That is so unusual.
00:19:42.000 It was really weird.
00:19:43.000 That's extraordinary.
00:19:44.000 Yeah.
00:19:45.000 So when a new queen splits from a hive, you know, a colony, they then take a big group of them with them.
00:19:51.000 So it's all about protecting the queen.
00:19:53.000 I just don't understand how they worked it out.
00:19:55.000 There was no fight to the death.
00:19:56.000 There was no nothing.
00:19:57.000 They just sort of worked it out.
00:19:58.000 The other bees took off and the bees that were there came back to their hive, their little colony.
00:20:07.000 I'm glad you mentioned that because this also speaks to what's called bee drift.
00:20:10.000 And so when we publish our article in Nature Scientific Reports, actually I think the data is understated because 10 to up to 20 percent of bees will drift from one colony to another.
00:20:22.000 So we had treatment colonies and we had treated colonies.
00:20:26.000 Well, because 10 to 20% of the bees in the treated colonies went to the control colonies, we actually diluted the differential because we had cross-movement of control bees and beehive versus treated bees.
00:20:42.000 And so when we actually, I think, and some of my other co-authors think we actually have understated the data.
00:20:48.000 But when you look at the P values of significance, you know, they're extraordinary.
00:20:53.000 P is less than.009, and that for scientists is an extraordinarily significant data set that is clearly showing the evidence that these extracts help the immunity of bees and help them be able to survive and do a better job.
00:21:08.000 That's awesome and it's crazy that it's just a natural mushroom but it makes sense what you're saying that they built their beehives in these rotting trees knowing that these fungi were there.
00:21:19.000 Or somehow or another being attracted to it?
00:21:21.000 You know, I like to say the first five seconds that I got the first patent award, my ego did swell.
00:21:27.000 And then ten seconds later, I said, are you frigging kidding?
00:21:30.000 We're Neanderthals with nuclear weapons.
00:21:32.000 How could I be the first one to have discovered that bees benefit from mycelium immunologically?
00:21:37.000 But there's no what's called prior art.
00:21:39.000 There's no evidence.
00:21:41.000 I mean, think of that.
00:21:42.000 We have the intelligence of nature underneath our feet.
00:21:45.000 And this is something we need to tap into.
00:21:48.000 And the fact that we can show a natural product, you know, if you had HPV, HIV, and you went to a doctor 12 days after having one treatment of these extracts, and your virus has dropped 45,000 to one, any physician would say,
00:22:04.000 wow, you're doing really well.
00:22:06.000 And this is what we'll be able to see.
00:22:07.000 Now, we've been trying to find what's called a mode of action.
00:22:10.000 How are these viruses actually being reduced?
00:22:13.000 Putatively, Our strongest hypothesis now is as providing essential nutrients that are important for the immune system To activate gene sequences then that attack the viruses and give more host-defensive immunity of protection about further infection.
00:22:30.000 Now, does this work with humans as well?
00:22:33.000 Like chaga is supposed to be good for your immune system, right?
00:22:35.000 Well, this is a great convergence.
00:22:38.000 So traditional Chinese medicine and European medicine and medicine from indigenous peoples all over the world have been using these mushrooms.
00:22:44.000 Now we're finding scientific evidence that folklorically, the reputation of chaga, of reishi, of these mushrooms helping the immunity of humans, this is translational medicine.
00:22:54.000 So, but bees...
00:22:57.000 It's an animal clinical study.
00:22:59.000 Bees have been stated as being, besides Drosophila, the second most well-studied animal in the world.
00:23:06.000 This is an animal clinical study, past digestion, past what's called the cytochrome P450 pathway, which is your detoxification pathway, mostly in our liver.
00:23:15.000 All animals use the cytochrome P450 pathway to break down toxins.
00:23:18.000 And it's passed the microbiome into the blood.
00:23:21.000 So this is actually, this is an animal clinical study.
00:23:24.000 And I think it's a gateway for us to take this as credible evidence that natural products can be more useful and offer a broader bioshield of benefits than pure pharmaceuticals that go after one molecule with one target, one set of receptors.
00:23:40.000 There are immunological fields that develop in the complexity of nature.
00:23:43.000 This is what our foods are.
00:23:45.000 We're in constant biomolecular communication with the ecosystem.
00:23:49.000 We've evolved in this complex molecular environment.
00:23:53.000 And so our immune systems are upregulated through multiple stimuli.
00:23:57.000 And that's why I think these extracts, because of their complexity, they build upon the complexity of natural systems that help our immune system.
00:24:03.000 So you have hope that this is something that we could eventually see being like a peer-reviewed, proven thing for human beings as well?
00:24:12.000 Absolutely.
00:24:13.000 I do believe that's on the near event horizon.
00:24:15.000 There's a lot of researchers now.
00:24:18.000 I believe it's on the near event horizon.
00:24:21.000 It's something that we're going to see more and more.
00:24:24.000 There's lots of clinical studies.
00:24:26.000 For physicians, there's no branding, no selling of anything.
00:24:29.000 I populate a website called mushroomreferences.com.
00:24:33.000 I populate specifically for physicians.
00:24:36.000 I just spoke at Singularity University, Stanford Medical School, in front of a thousand physicians.
00:24:41.000 I try to make the bridge of the credibility of the science for physicians who are just not educated yet because they don't have the resources or the time.
00:24:50.000 So mushroomreferences.com, you can go to that website.
00:24:53.000 It's got Hundreds of references that then you can put in any symptom or species, etc., and you'll be able to find the peer-reviewed references.
00:25:02.000 There's about 30 references, for instance, on psilocybin right now, which is an area of research that I'm particularly focused on.
00:25:10.000 Now, there was for a long time a stigma associated with anything that had anything to do with mushrooms, particularly because of psychedelic mushrooms.
00:25:21.000 Has that alleviated?
00:25:23.000 I know the John Hopkins study on psilocybin has shown some pretty incredible benefits and there's a lot of people now that are starting to look to it for treatment for people with PTSD or addiction issues.
00:25:35.000 Has that become more mainstream in your experience?
00:25:40.000 There's a vast title change in medical science.
00:25:44.000 There's a slide.
00:25:46.000 These are just a few of the universities right now that have been approved by the FDA and other agencies for human clinical studies on psilocybin.
00:25:56.000 Wow.
00:25:57.000 Harvard, Stanford.
00:25:59.000 Purdue.
00:26:03.000 Penn, Toronto, University of Toronto.
00:26:05.000 That's amazing.
00:26:06.000 So that's only a few of them.
00:26:08.000 I actually could put up...
00:26:09.000 Department of Veterans Affairs.
00:26:10.000 That's very interesting as well, right?
00:26:11.000 I could put up 20 more, but you couldn't read them because I had to be able to just to be able...
00:26:15.000 So this is a huge shift.
00:26:18.000 The clinical studies that are coming out for, as you know, PTSD in particular has been extremely useful, but one of them that came out at Johns Hopkins for breaking tobacco addiction, 15 patients, small clinical studies, statistically significant, 10 out of 15 people after one or two heroic doses of psilocybin,
00:26:38.000 12 months later, I think?
00:27:02.000 I think the idea of microdosing and being able to increase our ability of cognition and creativity to come up with the solutions that can get us out of this mess.
00:27:13.000 Just think of that.
00:27:14.000 If we had hundreds of millions of people thinking about solutions like I've come up with to solve some of the environmental challenges we have today for food biosecurity, the loss of bees is a threat to our national security.
00:27:25.000 Just think about the threat to our economy.
00:27:28.000 So this microdosing, I think, has enormous potential as well.
00:27:32.000 And when you think about one of the issues I see right now with the clinical studies is like it almost is too good to be true.
00:27:42.000 Statistically significant, great universities, great science, published in peer-reviewed journals at the top of their game.
00:27:48.000 But these mushrooms have so many benefits for fighting dementia, potentially Alzheimer's.
00:27:56.000 Johns Hopkins has an Alzheimer's clinical study ongoing currently.
00:28:00.000 For a dose of sulciben to see if it helps pre-Alzheimer's patients and not go into full-blown Alzheimer's.
00:28:08.000 There's so many different benefits potentially.
00:28:11.000 It's almost like a chaos of data.
00:28:14.000 It's almost too good to be true.
00:28:17.000 My team and Pam Crisco is an MD from British Columbia.
00:28:20.000 We've been working with people.
00:28:22.000 And we have just launched today an app that's at microdose.me.
00:28:31.000 It's available on the Apple Store.
00:28:33.000 It's available on Droid.
00:28:36.000 Quick little...
00:28:37.000 Wait a minute.
00:28:37.000 A microdosing study on...
00:28:39.000 And Apple allowed this on the App Store?
00:28:42.000 Yep.
00:28:42.000 That's a big shift.
00:28:44.000 And it's up to say...
00:28:44.000 Because this is a Schedule 1 drug that they're talking about taking on microdose levels...
00:28:52.000 I mean, I'm just saying what it is, right?
00:28:55.000 I mean, obviously you know what camp I'm in.
00:28:57.000 I want everybody to do it.
00:28:58.000 But this is really significant.
00:29:01.000 It measures your ability to hear, vision, the tap test, you know, and how quickly you can tap your fingers.
00:29:10.000 It's what you're stacking it with, but it's also good for non-psychoactive substance use.
00:29:16.000 What is your baseline?
00:29:18.000 So, you're getting older.
00:29:20.000 I'm getting older.
00:29:21.000 I'm getting younger, dude.
00:29:22.000 I have a new thing.
00:29:24.000 I vote for you.
00:29:25.000 I figured it out.
00:29:26.000 But the idea is to create baselines, you know, and then you create a baseline over time.
00:29:31.000 So you find out how far you deteriorated.
00:29:33.000 Or what your trend line is versus the general population.
00:29:36.000 So the idea with microdose.me is that we'll create a massive data set, massive amount of data, and then we'll offer this to clinicians for them to see signal from the noise.
00:29:50.000 I suspect, hypothetically, I don't have the evidence, but several doctors have collected case studies of tinnitus, or tinnitus, though those pronunciations are correct, of the buzzing in your ears, and people have resolved that from doing microdosing.
00:30:06.000 And 30% of Americans have hearing loss or more.
00:30:10.000 It's progressive over time.
00:30:11.000 How much hearing loss leads to depression because you can't hear your loved one?
00:30:18.000 I mean, it just ramifies out.
00:30:22.000 So the ability of being able to have better cognition, better neurological development, and helping hearing, vision, depression.
00:30:34.000 The interesting thing about the microdosing that we've been collecting is that people tend to be happier.
00:30:41.000 When they're happier, they're more creative.
00:30:43.000 And when they're more creative, they're happier.
00:30:46.000 You're learning a new kata.
00:30:48.000 You're excited the next day.
00:30:49.000 You nailed it.
00:30:51.000 You're up and going to do it again.
00:30:52.000 You're writing a new book.
00:30:53.000 You're doing an artist's work.
00:30:55.000 So creativity breeds happiness.
00:30:57.000 Happiness breeds creativity.
00:30:58.000 And then the opposite is true.
00:31:00.000 Malaise and depression.
00:31:02.000 You're not as creative.
00:31:05.000 You're not enjoying life.
00:31:07.000 You're not looking forward to the next day.
00:31:08.000 So I think it's almost a binary choice in the idea of using microdosing.
00:31:13.000 And the definition of microdosing has sort of variable interpretations.
00:31:19.000 So using the psilocybe cubensis scale, which is the most common psilocybe mushroom in the world, one gram is liftoff.
00:31:30.000 Five grams is what Terence would say was the hero's journey.
00:31:35.000 And when I was on last with you, I did 20 grams.
00:31:39.000 You know, that was a little bit much, you might say.
00:31:42.000 But when you do one-tenth of a one gram, you don't feel it.
00:31:47.000 One-twentieth, for sure, you don't feel it.
00:31:49.000 So the idea is you do microdosing below the threshold of intoxication, but then it benefits neurogenesis.
00:31:58.000 Now, there's an extraordinarily interesting study that came out With mice, but I think it's translational medicine.
00:32:06.000 And they were doing microdosing versus macrodosing.
00:32:10.000 So these are some numbers, but basically one gram is almost equivalent to one milligram per kilogram of body weight.
00:32:18.000 70 kilos is 152 pounds.
00:32:21.000 And so at one milligram per kilogram with these mice, that's like one gram of Cubensis.
00:32:27.000 That's a dose.
00:32:29.000 It's not a super high dose, but it's a dose.
00:32:31.000 So what they did with these mice is they had them in an arena with a metal floor, and they gave a tone.
00:32:40.000 Then 40 seconds later, they were shocked.
00:32:44.000 So they had the tone again a few minutes later.
00:32:46.000 40 seconds later, they got shocked.
00:32:48.000 After 10 rotations, the mice realized, like Pavlov's dog, when there was a tone, there was going to be a negative consequence, a shock happening.
00:32:57.000 So the mice would cower in fear.
00:32:59.000 So then they dosed them with a microdose, 0.1 milligrams per kilogram versus 1 milligram per kilogram.
00:33:05.000 One-tenth of a dose versus a full dose.
00:33:09.000 Interestingly, the full dose, it took ten rotations of no shock, the tone, no shock, before they forgot or became re-acclimated not to have the fear-conditioned response.
00:33:22.000 With the micro-dose, one-tenth of that, it only took two rotations.
00:33:27.000 Two rotations with a microdose and they dissociated potentially PTSD. Why do you think it's less?
00:33:34.000 Well, that's a really good question and the evidence we have so far, and again this is very early evidence, lots of research is going on in this, it looks like the neurogenic benefits of microdosing are greater than the neurogenic benefits of macrodosing.
00:33:46.000 You flood the receptors, you're having this incredible trip, it's fantastic, it's colorful, it's life-changing.
00:33:52.000 Yes, that is all beneficial for changing your life, but Doing microdosing over the long term, because the nerves don't regrow in six hours, but over weeks of regeneration of nerves with microdosing,
00:34:11.000 it seems to me that the microdosing, instead of flooding and overwhelming all the receptors, are feeding these receptors, they're allowing for neurogenesis.
00:34:20.000 Now this is, again, a hypothesis.
00:34:22.000 There's so many great people studying this right now.
00:34:25.000 What I'm advocating to all of the clinicians at Johns Hopkins, at Stanford, UCLA, at Harvard, please do testing of the patients for hearing and vision and other behavioral tests that are not just about emotion and mood and PTSD,
00:34:45.000 but let's actually get some physical measurements.
00:34:48.000 So then you can track prior During is too complicated.
00:34:54.000 It's too much intervention.
00:34:55.000 You're tripping your brains out.
00:34:56.000 You don't have time to be tested, you know, for vision and audit.
00:34:59.000 But then post-wise, and then looking at the residual effects.
00:35:03.000 Now, Dr. James Fadiman, he has the Fadiman protocol.
00:35:07.000 My protocol, the Stamets protocol, James Fadiman's protocol was microdosing one day on, two days off, one days on.
00:35:17.000 My protocol that I'm suggesting is four days on, three days off.
00:35:23.000 James and I are good friends.
00:35:24.000 We talk about this.
00:35:25.000 We laugh.
00:35:28.000 Basically, these are hypothetical potential treatments.
00:35:32.000 Are you comparing data between the two of you?
00:35:34.000 This is what Microdose, not me, will do.
00:35:39.000 We wanted to say, are you following the Stamos protocol, the Fatiman protocol, your own protocol?
00:35:43.000 Are you using it with niacin?
00:35:45.000 Are you using it with lion's mane?
00:35:47.000 What are you using it?
00:35:48.000 Lion's mane is phenomenally powerful neurogenically and there's two clinical studies out of Japan with mild cognitive decline in dementia showing very positive results taking two to four grams of lion's mane per day,
00:36:03.000 the mycelium.
00:36:04.000 Interesting, not the fruit bite, the mycelium is much more powerful and we just have been contracting with a neurological testing laboratory in France and we just got some amazing results back Showing that when we had lion's mane extracts of the mycelium exposed to neurons,
00:36:26.000 and the positive control was the brain-derived nerve growth factor, nerve factor, and it's used as a baseline for measuring neurogenic compounds comparatively.
00:36:38.000 And the neurogenic benefits from, this is where pluripotent stem cells, stem cells that then differentiate in the neurons.
00:36:46.000 And the BDNF clearly shows that.
00:36:48.000 It's a standard protocol.
00:36:49.000 With a lion's mane, it also increased the number of neurons.
00:36:53.000 Then we started looking at analogs of psilocybin.
00:36:57.000 And the analogs, when we added the lion's mane mycelium were the psilocybin analogs, which are perfectly legal.
00:37:03.000 They're not Schedule I substances.
00:37:05.000 Psilocybin analogs are not?
00:37:06.000 What is exactly a psilocybin analog?
00:37:09.000 There's a number of them that have been reported in the literature.
00:37:12.000 There's baocystin and norbaocystin are two of the more prominent ones.
00:37:18.000 Now, I'm a psychonaut, and in 1960, baocystin A report of a child died outside of Kelso, Washington from eating mushrooms in his yard.
00:37:34.000 The family ingested the mushrooms.
00:37:37.000 They went to the hospital.
00:37:39.000 The child developed a fever, eventually had renal failure and died.
00:37:46.000 A chemist by the name of Lung and then Benedict and Tyler picked up on this.
00:37:51.000 They analyzed the mushrooms looking for a new toxin.
00:37:54.000 The mushrooms were identified as being Psilocybe baocystis.
00:37:58.000 It is a mushroom that grows in Washington State and Oregon, sometimes in British Columbia, but not in Northern California.
00:38:04.000 It's a very rare species, but grows in yards.
00:38:07.000 When they analyzed the mushroom looking for new potential toxins, they found It's alkaloid.
00:38:12.000 It's a dimethylchirpamine-based compound.
00:38:14.000 And they named it Baocystin, after psilocybin Baocystis.
00:38:19.000 So Baocystin had the reputation of potentially being a deadly poisonous toxin.
00:38:23.000 It's present in Cubensis.
00:38:25.000 It's present in many psilocybin mushrooms.
00:38:27.000 And my book, Psilocybin Mushrooms of the World, has charts that show how much Baocystin is in these things.
00:38:31.000 But no one had ever consumed Baocystin because of this reputation.
00:38:36.000 Bayocystin is legal.
00:38:38.000 I obtained some pure Bayocystin from a laboratory, legally.
00:38:43.000 I have no psilocybin.
00:38:44.000 Nature provides.
00:38:46.000 I don't.
00:38:46.000 People make this very clear.
00:38:48.000 But I can possess these psilocybin analogs.
00:38:51.000 And so, since there was no reports in the scientific literature of whether this was truly toxic or not, I, with a doctor friend of mine, an M.D., That measured my vitals and hooked me up, you know, to blood pressure, ECG,
00:39:06.000 did all the biometrics that are needed.
00:39:09.000 And so we did an N of one study.
00:39:12.000 I decided that even though it had a history of potentially killing this child, I think that's a false positive.
00:39:18.000 I think it was bad science.
00:39:20.000 I couldn't find no one who ever ingested this, so I decided I would ingest it.
00:39:25.000 Now, my friend Pam, she's an M.D. that goes into Antarctica.
00:39:30.000 She's the only doctor on a research vessel.
00:39:32.000 And so she goes down there and she gets to bring a roommate.
00:39:35.000 And it was me.
00:39:36.000 And so Pam and I were working really hard.
00:39:39.000 We had all of our plane tickets.
00:39:40.000 We're ready to go to Antarctica.
00:39:42.000 We had been planning this for months.
00:39:45.000 And then we decided, well, just before we go, Paul, let's do the Bay of System test.
00:39:49.000 You know, we've been talking about this for months.
00:39:51.000 We finally got the time to do this.
00:39:53.000 But the next day we're going to Antarctica.
00:39:55.000 So Pam looks at her cell phone, and this Russian research vessel crashed into a reef, tore a hole in it, and it's like, it's now, the trip is canceled.
00:40:06.000 I mean, I have American Express, you know, plane tickets, hotels, I've got 24 hours to do it.
00:40:11.000 Try to recapture all this money because we can't go.
00:40:14.000 The trip's been canceled.
00:40:15.000 So I had super high anxiety.
00:40:17.000 I told my doctor friend, I have too much anxiety.
00:40:20.000 I can't go.
00:40:21.000 This is too crazy.
00:40:23.000 And then she kind of looked at me going, listen, we've been planning this for months.
00:40:28.000 Please.
00:40:28.000 And I listened to her.
00:40:30.000 And so I did 10 milligrams.
00:40:34.000 She measured my heartbeat, blood pressure, all those metrics.
00:40:39.000 My eyes did dilate.
00:40:40.000 She said that was good.
00:40:41.000 She always had a drug-like effect.
00:40:43.000 And then she checked in with me every 10, 15 minutes.
00:40:46.000 20 minutes, you usually have liftoff, one hour, you're full-blown into it.
00:40:50.000 And she checked with me, and she checked with me.
00:40:54.000 And I didn't get high.
00:40:56.000 I'm not at all.
00:40:58.000 She goes, how do you feel?
00:40:59.000 And I said, I feel great.
00:41:02.000 I have no anxiety.
00:41:03.000 Everything with this trip is going to be fine.
00:41:05.000 So here we found an analog of psilocybin that does not get you high, that's legal, that reduced anxiety.
00:41:13.000 I think this is the tip of the proverbial iceberg.
00:41:16.000 Because all the clinical studies are approved right now for pure psilocybin.
00:41:19.000 What about the analogs?
00:41:20.000 They activate other receptor sites, you know, in your neurological field.
00:41:26.000 And that's why I think this is why looking at the natural form of these mushrooms, standardized to the psilocybin, a certain concentration, versus the pure molecule, I think that is the way of the future.
00:41:38.000 Because pure psilocybin is up to $6,000, $7,000 a gram.
00:41:43.000 And you can translate that into growing sulcibe mushrooms for $2 a gram.
00:41:48.000 Now, there are people out there listening saying, well, the price is coming down.
00:41:51.000 Indeed, it is.
00:41:52.000 It's down maybe to $1,000 to $500 a gram.
00:41:55.000 But how many people in the urban, lower-income area You know, impoverished populations suffering from PTSD who can't afford to go to Johns Hopkins to spend tens of thousands of dollars to have a clinical treatment.
00:42:11.000 I think this democratizes the use of psilocybin and microdosing that could be a benefit across our society.
00:42:19.000 And then what I'm proposing is you stack it with niacin.
00:42:22.000 And the reason why you stack it with niacin is you take one-tenth of a gram of psilocybin cubensis, microdose, you add 100 to 200 milligrams of niacin.
00:42:33.000 Now, if someone tries to get high by taking 10 times as much, they'll have like 2 grams of niacin.
00:42:38.000 This is flushing niacin, vitamin B3. And that flushing niacin will give you such an irritable reaction of skin-ditching of people who've taken vitamin B3. They know this.
00:42:49.000 So it becomes the ant abuse for microdosing.
00:42:52.000 But moreover, it excites the nerves at the end of the peripheral nervous system.
00:43:00.000 And neuropathies oftentimes present themselves as a deadening of the nerves of the fingertips and toes.
00:43:05.000 And it's also a vasodilator.
00:43:06.000 So there's three attributes of stacking niacin with psilocybin mushrooms that prevents abuse.
00:43:13.000 It becomes the antabuse.
00:43:14.000 It dilates the blood vessels to deliver the neurogenic benefits of psilocybin to the endpoints of the peripheral nervous system and the central nervous system.
00:43:24.000 It also excites the nerve endings.
00:43:30.000 I hope to see in the future psilocybin mushrooms being over-the-counter vitamins.
00:43:37.000 Approved by the FDA, stacked with niacin that allows for the universality of use for the benefit of our culture.
00:43:45.000 We were talking last time...
00:43:47.000 Can I pause here for a second?
00:43:48.000 Is there any other evidence of people taking these analogs and having this anti-anxiety effect other than you?
00:43:54.000 I mean, this seems a very small sample size, right?
00:43:57.000 It's just one person.
00:43:58.000 Yes, there are.
00:43:59.000 As an anti-depressant, as far as anxiety and depression are interrelated, there are reports.
00:44:05.000 James Fadiman, in his studies, his population study, which is admittedly small, did not see an anti-anxiety component.
00:44:13.000 But other clinical studies at John Hopkins also the anxiety of dying from cancer.
00:44:18.000 Right, but that was actually psilocybin.
00:44:20.000 That was actually psilocybin.
00:44:21.000 But what I'm saying with you is also you had a very profoundly stressful situation happening.
00:44:28.000 Something you had prepared for for a long time, then all of a sudden it was gone, and all this money's gone.
00:44:32.000 You've got to try to figure out how to get it back.
00:44:34.000 It's immediate.
00:44:35.000 Maybe with these other people, they didn't have such an immediate anxiety moment, and maybe their anxiety was harder to measure whether it was coming or going.
00:44:45.000 Well, absolutely.
00:44:46.000 It's the end of one study.
00:44:48.000 This is just...
00:44:49.000 How many people?
00:44:50.000 Me.
00:44:51.000 No, the other one.
00:44:52.000 The other people that have experienced it but didn't experience any anti-anxiety?
00:44:58.000 There's no one else that we know in the scientific literature.
00:45:00.000 Johann Gartz mentions, I published Cilosophy of Azorescence with him, the most potent suicide mushroom in the world.
00:45:06.000 Johan Gartz says in one thing that he was asked, and he said that the Bayo-System was equal to that of Sol-Sybin.
00:45:13.000 I don't have high confidence in that statement.
00:45:15.000 I consider Bayo-System.
00:45:17.000 I was ready for liftoff.
00:45:18.000 I was hoping for liftoff.
00:45:19.000 I know what liftoff feels like, and I didn't get it.
00:45:22.000 So this is – what happens in science so much is – The scientists, when you can't do a clinical study, we bioassay.
00:45:32.000 This is very common.
00:45:34.000 This is how Albert Hofmann discovered LSD. He bioassayed it.
00:45:38.000 Didn't he do it accidentally, though?
00:45:40.000 He did it accidentally, right.
00:45:41.000 He went for this famous bike ride, but then he did it purposely after that.
00:45:46.000 But nevertheless, this is what our scientific, you know, psychonauts must do sometimes.
00:45:50.000 Sascha Shulgin.
00:45:51.000 Yeah, Sascha Shulgin's famous for it.
00:45:55.000 We're good to go.
00:46:18.000 And there was an 18% reduction in violent crime and a 22% or so reduction in larceny and theft.
00:46:27.000 In a population where they reported they had one psilocybin mushroom experience.
00:46:33.000 And statistically significant.
00:46:36.000 Now, association may not be causation, but it can be.
00:46:38.000 But a more recent study from British Columbia, which I find to be so fascinating, is that they did a large population set And partner-to-partner violence.
00:46:50.000 If your male partner had done one psilocybin trip, statistically significant reduction of the probability of that partner being violent towards their other partner.
00:47:06.000 Statistically significant.
00:47:07.000 So I always thought if there's a dating app, maybe you should have the dating app.
00:47:11.000 Have you tripped on psilocybin?
00:47:12.000 Yes.
00:47:13.000 Well, that may be a better candidate for dating.
00:47:17.000 So I think psilocybin makes nicer people.
00:47:20.000 And I think we need a lot more nicer people that are more creative, that are dedicated to helping the community.
00:47:27.000 And I think this is a potential paradigm shifting drug.
00:47:32.000 Unquestionably.
00:47:33.000 And here's the other thing.
00:47:34.000 This could be profit.
00:47:35.000 I mean, these companies that are seeking to profit off of pharmaceutical drugs, you can profit off this stuff, particularly with the protocol that you just described, with adding niacin to it to ensure that people are doing only microdosing.
00:47:49.000 Look, man, this could be a very profitable enterprise for some company.
00:47:53.000 And the benefits, if people can mirror the benefits that you had of this alleviation of anxiety, My God, that's like most of what people struggle with.
00:48:03.000 So many people out there listening to this right now are like, fuck, I wish there was something that didn't get me high, but just alleviated this fucking angst that so many people are struggling with every day.
00:48:14.000 It's a massive disease complex that's swept our societies.
00:48:19.000 Yeah.
00:48:20.000 And facing all these problems, how could you not become depressed?
00:48:24.000 Well, you cannot become depressed by becoming creative.
00:48:27.000 And I think that psilocybin in microdosing enables the creative pathways for ingenuity for us to feel that we have meaning.
00:48:37.000 We can make a meaningful difference.
00:48:39.000 It's really important.
00:48:42.000 You know, we've entered into 6X, the sixth greatest extinction event known in the history of life on this planet.
00:48:47.000 We've had two other extinction events from asteroid impacts 250 million years ago, 65 million years ago, but we're now involved in a massive extinction event.
00:48:56.000 And the research that came out today and the other research has come out with 75% of the Insect population, 40% in immediate jeopardy.
00:49:07.000 The research article came out and said in Europe and North America, they have good data collection.
00:49:11.000 In Amazon, they don't.
00:49:12.000 So we didn't even measure the insect loss in the Amazon.
00:49:16.000 But if you're a trout, if you're a bird, if you like drinking coffee and you like chocolate and you like almonds, I mean, these are all dependent upon pollinators.
00:49:27.000 So if we lose these flying insects, we lose the pollination services and it threatens worldwide food biosecurity.
00:49:33.000 This is one of the biggest threats to our ecosystem now.
00:49:36.000 I think we can invent our ways out of this if we creatively expand our ability to come up with novel solutions.
00:49:45.000 And I think those solutions are literally underfoot and all around us today.
00:49:48.000 We just have to wake up like I woke up to helping the bees.
00:49:53.000 There are so many smart people out there.
00:49:54.000 If they just started realizing that nature is a deep well of evolutionary knowledge and that we have evolved within this complexity, then to delve into that library of knowledge and pulling out applicable solutions, vetted by science,
00:50:11.000 controlled studies, but not looking at these pharmaceutical pure molecules as the way of the future, but looking upon the complexity of the microbiome The complex interrelationships and selecting out microbiomes that then create guilds of solutions that are applicable to the problems that we face today.
00:50:30.000 All right.
00:50:31.000 I like that idea.
00:50:33.000 All of it.
00:50:34.000 It's beautiful that there are these natural solutions that, you know, maybe if we could just shift people's ideas about how we view psilocybin, how we view the analogs, how we view The interaction with people in nature that you can,
00:50:50.000 you know, we can make a real change, make a change that's tangible inside of our lifetime.
00:50:56.000 And again, selling this stuff, like if, look, we're seeing what's happening right now with medical marijuana and then shifting to commercial marijuana and now hemp.
00:51:05.000 It's giant.
00:51:06.000 I mean, it's a huge industry through, it's changed Colorado.
00:51:08.000 Colorado, Denver's real estate's gone through the roof.
00:51:12.000 People are moving there so much that they've got traffic problems now they never conceived of in the past.
00:51:17.000 It's changed their economy.
00:51:19.000 And it's changed their economy due to just a really obvious shift.
00:51:23.000 Here's the shift.
00:51:24.000 Marijuana's not bad for you.
00:51:25.000 It's not.
00:51:25.000 We thought it was.
00:51:26.000 It's not.
00:51:27.000 We're sorry.
00:51:28.000 You can have it now.
00:51:29.000 And now you can sell it.
00:51:30.000 And now it's legal.
00:51:31.000 But federally, we're still dealing with Schedule 1. So these shifts are happening.
00:51:37.000 These companies are investing money.
00:51:39.000 There's a lot of profit to be made, and a lot of people are profiting.
00:51:42.000 But it's still in this weird transitionary stage.
00:51:45.000 It is, but this is a people's revolution.
00:51:47.000 When you have decriminalized nature coming out of Oakland, which I'm fully in favor of, how dare we make a species illegal?
00:51:54.000 That makes no sense to me.
00:51:56.000 What is Oakland specifically?
00:51:57.000 They've made ayahuasca, psilocybin, what else?
00:52:00.000 All natural products with psychoactive properties to the best of my understanding.
00:52:04.000 Both Denver and Oakland, they removed the funding for prosecutors and judges in the courts.
00:52:11.000 So you can't use public funds in order to prosecute people for possession.
00:52:16.000 So this is a very- Can you still arrest them for it though?
00:52:19.000 Well, the law enforcement officer is not getting paid.
00:52:21.000 He's not doing his job.
00:52:22.000 He's violating his code of conduct.
00:52:25.000 If you arrest them and you take them to a prosecutor, the prosecutor goes, I have no funding for this.
00:52:29.000 You're wasting our time.
00:52:31.000 You're just coming here and wasting my time.
00:52:32.000 I have murders to solve.
00:52:34.000 What if someone's selling it?
00:52:37.000 Decriminalization doesn't prevent you from being prosecuted for selling a Schedule I substance, right?
00:52:43.000 That's a really, really good question, and I have thoughts on it.
00:52:47.000 That's controversial because this speaks to the ability of some people having access and not...
00:52:56.000 I only trip on psilocybin mushrooms once or twice a year.
00:52:59.000 That's all I need.
00:53:01.000 As Terence McKenna and I think Alan Watts said, when you get the message from the phone, hang it up.
00:53:08.000 So if you just have these psilocybin mushrooms growing in your backyard or you know how to collect them, then you only need one or two doses a year.
00:53:19.000 And even microdosing, you get a lot more extension of that.
00:53:24.000 But my view, and I've never had any problem with law enforcement.
00:53:29.000 In Washington and Oregon and British Columbia and Canada in particular, law enforcement has a very pretty mature attitude towards this.
00:53:37.000 If you have a small amount and you're not trafficking and you're for individual use, It just doesn't raise the level of the need for enforcement.
00:53:46.000 No, I understand that, but I just wish there was no incentive at all.
00:53:49.000 There was nothing there.
00:53:50.000 Just the idea that you have to rely on the good grace of a cop who understands that there's no incentive to arrest you, that seems like horseshit to me.
00:53:57.000 We're grown adults in 2019 with a mountain of evidence.
00:54:01.000 We're not living in the dark ages anymore, and the fact that it's still a possibility that you could get arrested, or you could face some sort of criminal charges.
00:54:10.000 For having something that's only been demonstrated to be good.
00:54:13.000 This is why the citizens movement, the federal government, I mean the republicans and conservatives and libertarians are all about state rights.
00:54:20.000 This is a people's movement.
00:54:21.000 They should get behind this because individual community rights against the big man, against the federal government.
00:54:28.000 The federal government, there needs to be a title change.
00:54:31.000 And how do we do that is because we have decriminalized Nature in Oregon.
00:54:37.000 We have the Denver Initiative, other cities around the country.
00:54:41.000 It's now spreading throughout the entire country.
00:54:43.000 There's probably 20 cities in the next 16 months that are going to have decriminalization at the city councils.
00:54:50.000 I also think it's a significant solution to this problem that we're facing with pills and a lot of destructive drugs.
00:54:58.000 There's a lot of self-destructive drugs that people are taking because these people are hurting.
00:55:02.000 What psilocybin gives you that these drugs don't, it gives you a potential to heal.
00:55:07.000 It gives you a moment to reflect.
00:55:08.000 It gives you a change in the way you think and you interface with the world.
00:55:12.000 And that just doesn't exist in those other drugs.
00:55:14.000 Those drugs are escape drugs.
00:55:16.000 The need to escape is what we've got to eliminate.
00:55:19.000 And I think that's one of the things that psilocybin can help.
00:55:21.000 It can help alleviate the need to escape.
00:55:24.000 And a shout out to Rick Doblin and Leanna Galuli of MAPS, MAPS.org, the Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies.
00:55:36.000 MAPS.org and MAPS.ca in Canada.
00:55:41.000 I've been instrumental in bringing forward psychedelic drugs for PTSD and clinical studies.
00:55:48.000 MAPS is now in phase three.
00:55:50.000 With MDMA. With MDMA. I've had Rick on a couple of times.
00:55:54.000 I love that guy.
00:55:54.000 So yeah, I mean he's a real pioneer in this.
00:55:57.000 And so what's interesting in getting now from three different groups I've heard who've sat down with FDA scientists, there's been a new turnover within the FDA. And these scientists are looking at just pure science without politics.
00:56:11.000 They don't care about politics.
00:56:12.000 They want to help people.
00:56:13.000 And several of them have said they've never seen, with psilocybin in particular, a safer drug with such a dramatic impact in frequency of use one or two times.
00:56:28.000 There's a movie that just came out called Fantastic Fungi, and Michael Pollan's in there.
00:56:34.000 I'm in there.
00:56:36.000 Louis Schwarzberg has put it out.
00:56:38.000 He spent 12 years working on this movie.
00:56:41.000 It's fantasticfungi.com.
00:56:42.000 It's a grassroots movement.
00:56:44.000 Theaters are selling out all over the country.
00:56:47.000 They book it in New York City for one night.
00:56:49.000 They have to keep it in for a week because there's standing lines, standing room You know, long lines to get into theater.
00:56:55.000 And it's all about the use of mushrooms and the Johns Hopkins studies with end-of-life patients.
00:57:02.000 It's very, very well done.
00:57:05.000 But it speaks to this, is that this is literally a quote-unquote underground movement that's welling up.
00:57:12.000 The attraction that people have for this is a reflection of the tidal change that is happening now.
00:57:19.000 This is a worldwide movement that is sweeping through the mycelial underground and through connections.
00:57:24.000 So something I'd very much encourage you to see Fantastic Fungi.
00:57:28.000 Is it on Netflix?
00:57:29.000 It's not on Netflix.
00:57:30.000 Louis was offered a lot of money for Netflix.
00:57:32.000 But once it gets to Netflix, it's a library book in the library.
00:57:36.000 And he wanted to build community.
00:57:37.000 So he's been out.
00:57:39.000 And people can sponsor theater openings.
00:57:41.000 It's got 100% on Rotten Tomatoes.
00:57:44.000 How many movies get 100% on Rotten Tomatoes?
00:57:47.000 So it's really a people's movie and it's spreading, you know.
00:57:51.000 Where can you get it?
00:57:52.000 You go to fantasticfungi.com.
00:57:54.000 And you can sign up for theaters.
00:57:56.000 So it has to be in a theater?
00:57:58.000 Yeah, right now.
00:57:59.000 It will be eventually, after this year, it's going to be available on the web.
00:58:05.000 Right now...
00:58:06.000 Louis spent a lot of money, four or five million dollars, I think.
00:58:10.000 Norman and Lynn Lear, Norman Lear, all in the family, you know, and Archie Bunker.
00:58:15.000 They're also co-producers of this.
00:58:17.000 Really?
00:58:17.000 Yeah.
00:58:18.000 And so, yeah, Lynn Lear.
00:58:19.000 Norman Lear's out there tripping?
00:58:22.000 Allegedly?
00:58:23.000 I cannot.
00:58:23.000 Here it is.
00:58:24.000 Are you ready to explore the magic that lives beneath our feet?
00:58:27.000 Wow.
00:58:28.000 I thought Archie Bunker was one of the most lovable, racist, conservative assholes I've ever seen on TV. Well, Norman Lear did a lot more than that, right?
00:58:38.000 This is really interesting, though, that they've decided to release it in film theaters versus on the web.
00:58:47.000 Because if you really want to reach a lot of people, is it selling this way?
00:58:52.000 I mean, it seems like if you spend a lot of money...
00:58:55.000 The way to get that money back would be to sell it to Netflix.
00:58:58.000 I would agree with you.
00:59:01.000 Or Amazon?
00:59:02.000 Netflix offered him one quarter to one half of the cost.
00:59:07.000 They didn't value it, and they didn't see it.
00:59:10.000 South by Southwest turned them down, and it's got 100% on Rotten Tomatoes.
00:59:14.000 People just don't see this.
00:59:16.000 Why did South by Southwest turn them down?
00:59:18.000 Because it's not part, I think, of the Hollywood establishment.
00:59:22.000 South by Southwest?
00:59:24.000 I mean, I can't explain why South by Southwest turned it down or the other festivals, the Cannes Festival, etc.
00:59:33.000 That's not my level of expertise.
00:59:36.000 But what is happening is that these theaters are selling out days upon days, a huge response.
00:59:44.000 People have an appetite for this because it gives them...
00:59:55.000 I think?
01:00:09.000 That we're under lots of stressors, just like the bees are.
01:00:12.000 We have a multiplicity of stressors.
01:00:14.000 And these stressors lead to malaise, depression, disease, crime, and poverty.
01:00:19.000 And this is something that I think can help do a title change for the better, provided it's done responsibly.
01:00:26.000 Now, you've mentioned companies.
01:00:28.000 There's 20, at least, new psilocybin companies that have been formed in the past year.
01:00:34.000 A lot of them are from the Canadian cannabis industry.
01:00:37.000 They made a ton of money, so several of them called me up.
01:00:42.000 I've talked to two groups and both groups when I asked them, have you done a heroic dose on psilocybin?
01:00:49.000 None of them would admit that they did.
01:00:51.000 They're scared?
01:00:52.000 They hadn't even tripped.
01:00:54.000 What?
01:00:54.000 I asked them, have you done a small dose?
01:00:56.000 And everyone was silent.
01:00:57.000 And one group I said, you folks just seem like economic opportunists.
01:01:01.000 And one of them said, that's exactly what we are.
01:01:03.000 We're just trying to make money.
01:01:06.000 Just make a deal with them.
01:01:08.000 Listen, I need one afternoon of your time.
01:01:11.000 I think it's important that we...
01:01:13.000 Come to Jesus.
01:01:15.000 Yeah, that's a different subject.
01:01:16.000 I mean, it would be amazing, right?
01:01:18.000 Do that and say, look, I'll do this deal with you, but just give me five hours.
01:01:23.000 You take five hours, have them all trip together, and now go, let's reevaluate this.
01:01:27.000 I'm with you.
01:01:28.000 I'm with you, brother.
01:01:29.000 And that's what's needed because those of us who understand the importance of this realize that this is something that we have to carefully shepherd for maximum benefit.
01:01:42.000 And these commercialization of these companies, I call it Spore Wars.
01:01:47.000 Very soon there's going to be Spore Wars between all these companies.
01:01:52.000 Sounds like a good movie.
01:01:53.000 That's a sequel.
01:01:55.000 Spore Wars.
01:01:58.000 Listen, man, what's exciting to me is it's not dirty anymore, okay?
01:02:03.000 The first time I did mushrooms, I think, was...
01:02:06.000 Very, very early 2000s.
01:02:08.000 And God, you tell people about it.
01:02:10.000 They were like, what's wrong with you?
01:02:11.000 You're a grown adult.
01:02:12.000 You pay taxes.
01:02:14.000 All my life.
01:02:15.000 It's like, what kind of a fuck-up are you?
01:02:19.000 At your age, you're doing mushrooms?
01:02:21.000 My God, grow up.
01:02:23.000 That's what it was like.
01:02:24.000 And you would tell them, no, I don't think that's what it is.
01:02:26.000 I think it expands your consciousness.
01:02:27.000 I think it connects you to...
01:02:29.000 Higher levels of thinking, and it just makes you more in tuned with the great beyond.
01:02:35.000 There's something more there.
01:02:37.000 And I'm like, you listen to yourself.
01:02:39.000 Go to work.
01:02:40.000 Go, goddamn.
01:02:42.000 Get up in the morning and have a cup of coffee and go to work.
01:02:45.000 But now, people are slowly but surely...
01:02:48.000 The dirtiness of...
01:02:50.000 And then the term microdosing is wonderful, because people know you can take a little bit, you know?
01:02:56.000 We've micro-dosed on this podcast before.
01:02:58.000 Ari and I just took a couple stems recently.
01:03:01.000 I guess it was probably a little more than micro-dosed.
01:03:04.000 We were definitely noticeably high.
01:03:07.000 But like an hour in, an hour and a half in, I go, I forgot!
01:03:10.000 We took mushrooms!
01:03:12.000 I'm like, why am I so happy?
01:03:13.000 But that feeling, I want people to experience that feeling because it's a relatively clean feeling.
01:03:21.000 And after mushrooms, I feel younger.
01:03:23.000 I go to these TED conferences every year.
01:03:26.000 I feel lighter.
01:03:27.000 I was treated like a leper when I went to TED. And the organizers of TED were so afraid I was going to talk about psychedelic mushrooms.
01:03:34.000 How many years ago was this?
01:03:35.000 2008, when I first went.
01:03:37.000 What's it like now, though?
01:03:39.000 This last time, I mean, I was treated like a super celebrity.
01:03:44.000 I had these hugely, hugely powerful people, some of the names you probably know, who came up to me and would shake my shoulders going, now I understand!
01:03:53.000 Now I understand!
01:03:55.000 I had to say, down boy!
01:03:57.000 Keep down!
01:03:58.000 But they awoke into something and their mates, their friends, their business associates, you know, the common theme is, wow, he was such a jerk before and he's so nice now.
01:04:13.000 And they're seeking cooperation and they still are productive.
01:04:16.000 They're still creative.
01:04:18.000 They're banging it out.
01:04:19.000 The coders in Silicon Valley know that microdosing helps their coding ability, so it's a competitive advantage to those other computer companies that do not.
01:04:30.000 I think any new business Populated in particular by young people who are not doing microdosing are going to be at a competitive disadvantage.
01:04:41.000 Because the creativity flow, the camaraderie of the community seeking to benefit the commons and also reward yourself.
01:04:48.000 I'm not saying it's all, you know, just helping the commons.
01:04:52.000 But the idea of being able to reward yourself and people rejoice in your success and they benefit from it as well, it really integrates people together.
01:05:02.000 People need to understand that there's a lot of this squirreling away resources and money and things and trying to climb that corporate ladder.
01:05:11.000 This is a finite life.
01:05:13.000 It doesn't last that long.
01:05:15.000 It's a trick.
01:05:16.000 You get sucked into this trick and this trick is what every CEO and every Head of every corporation, every chief financial officer, all these people that are just trying to improve the bottom line, rake in more money, keep this company growing,
01:05:33.000 and keep kicking ass.
01:05:34.000 It's a trick.
01:05:35.000 You're sucked up in a trick.
01:05:37.000 There's a natural human tendency to accumulate numbers for whatever reason.
01:05:41.000 Go back to our early days when resources were scarce.
01:05:45.000 And if you get sucked into that trick, one day you're gonna wake up and that's gonna usually be too late.
01:05:52.000 Usually it's on your deathbed.
01:05:53.000 Usually it's close to it.
01:05:54.000 You're like, what did I do?
01:05:55.000 This is it.
01:05:56.000 My health is failing.
01:05:58.000 My life's falling apart.
01:05:59.000 And what has my life been?
01:06:01.000 It's been 10, 12, 14 hours a day in these stuffed offices under fluorescent lights, crunching numbers and trying to acquire things and And for what?
01:06:13.000 Like, what impact have I made on humans?
01:06:16.000 What is the negative impact of my ambition on the people that are around me?
01:06:21.000 Like, all this is like, the one thing that psilocybin and particularly just psychedelics in general can provide is a break from patterns, a stopping, a ceasefire of all the momentum of our culture, civilization, finances,
01:06:37.000 taxes, credit card debt, all that shit just...
01:06:42.000 Stops and you get a chance to step back and look at the machine watch it all whirl and spin in front of you and you get to say oh I got sucked into the trick I'm sucked into a trick A lot of people I've talked to, exactly what you're mentioning,
01:06:59.000 and they did do a heroic journey.
01:07:01.000 Yeah.
01:07:02.000 And they then look back and go, why was I prioritizing that?
01:07:06.000 Yeah.
01:07:06.000 Would I want to be out with my children?
01:07:07.000 Yes.
01:07:08.000 You know, and looking at birds or walking in the woods.
01:07:10.000 Being in nature, yeah.
01:07:11.000 Being in nature.
01:07:12.000 One of my books, Cell Side Mushrooms of the World, has a great chapter in it, I think, called...
01:07:19.000 Good tips for great trips.
01:07:21.000 And one of the things, I understand the clinically controlled settings for clinical studies, etc.
01:07:28.000 A lot of us don't need that.
01:07:30.000 But I really enjoy being on an ocean bluff or a high point.
01:07:37.000 And by being in the mushrooms about half an hour before sunset.
01:07:42.000 Being with a loved one.
01:07:44.000 Also good to have an experienced person who's not tripping who is the watcher.
01:07:49.000 A sitter.
01:07:50.000 A sitter.
01:07:50.000 A sitter is there thinking meditation practice in place folks give these people some space who's just watching and then the people who are imbibing understand they have a watcher they have somebody who's anchored who can help them and then to have this the sun go down and I agree.
01:08:17.000 I think there's one thing we should talk about, though.
01:08:19.000 There are people that have a tendency towards schizophrenia.
01:08:24.000 And these people have – sometimes they have psychedelic breaks.
01:08:29.000 Like they'll have psychedelic experiences and then they don't do well.
01:08:33.000 They go off to deep end.
01:08:34.000 I'm so glad you brought that up and that is a de-selection from the clinical studies of candidates who want to engage.
01:08:42.000 But my good friend Mark Hayden who runs MAPS Canada had a very interesting story with a schizophrenic.
01:08:50.000 And he also cautioned, and every physician I know is on the same page as you.
01:08:55.000 Including medical, not medical marijuana, edible.
01:08:58.000 Edible marijuana seems to have a significant effect on people with it.
01:09:01.000 What Mark noted with this one person who was a severe schizophrenic was that he still heard voices in his head, but the voices now were friendly.
01:09:13.000 They were affirming.
01:09:14.000 What?
01:09:15.000 They weren't saying, you know, go kill somebody.
01:09:17.000 It was like, you know, you are a good person.
01:09:19.000 And so he still had the voice in the head, but the tenor and tone and attitude of the voices were supportive.
01:09:24.000 What I'm talking about is it bringing on these schizophrenic experiences.
01:09:30.000 There has been some evidence, particularly about marijuana.
01:09:33.000 That high doses of marijuana for people that have tendencies, and we don't know, right?
01:09:38.000 What causes someone to have schizophrenic breaks?
01:09:41.000 Because there is a difference between pre and post, right?
01:09:44.000 People have had deteriorating mental health that correlates with schizophrenia.
01:09:50.000 What caused them to be less schizophrenic or not exhibiting any of the problems, and then all of a sudden having severe problems post- Psychedelic trip or post large dose edible marijuana and or even large dose smoking it or some people they dab and they smoke wax and then it happens to people that smoke too much pot there's certain people that have that tendency I would defer to clinicians who are extremely skilled in this area and who
01:10:20.000 have seen many, many patients.
01:10:22.000 I'm not a doctor, but I concur with you.
01:10:24.000 I think that is a real concern.
01:10:27.000 The difference between a toxin and a drug can oftentimes be dose.
01:10:32.000 At lower doses, you can see things.
01:10:34.000 At higher doses, you don't.
01:10:36.000 So it's an entire spectrum and it's so complex.
01:10:41.000 Individualities of people are so uniquely different.
01:10:46.000 I have a friend who's a doctor.
01:10:48.000 If he smokes a joint, he can't go to sleep.
01:10:50.000 I smoke a joint and I'm into a cuddle puddle, man.
01:10:54.000 I'm ready for the pillow.
01:10:56.000 At night, I use it for going to sleep.
01:10:59.000 Yeah, I'm the opposite.
01:11:00.000 I start writing.
01:11:01.000 I want to read.
01:11:02.000 I want to watch documentaries.
01:11:04.000 But it's a sativa thing too as well, right?
01:11:06.000 Do you have a significant difference between the way your body responds to sativas versus indicas?
01:11:13.000 I would like to be educated on this subject.
01:11:16.000 I've used both for a very long time.
01:11:18.000 I love acne, indica.
01:11:22.000 You have a beard.
01:11:23.000 I have a beard.
01:11:23.000 I love the smell of cannabis on my beard.
01:11:26.000 You like the smell on your beard?
01:11:27.000 Yeah.
01:11:27.000 You weirdo.
01:11:30.000 It's my perfume, right?
01:11:32.000 I get it.
01:11:36.000 We're in a new realm of pharmacology and pharmacognosy.
01:11:42.000 I think we have to navigate this carefully.
01:11:44.000 The problem with natural products is how do you standardize them to the active constituent?
01:11:48.000 When you have more than one active constituent, how do you standardize them all?
01:11:53.000 There's an entourage or a symphony effect.
01:11:56.000 This speaks to the complexity of nature.
01:11:58.000 But I have a phrase that I like, is don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.
01:12:01.000 Just because you can't understand it doesn't mean it necessarily does not have a valid outcome or, you know, can't be used.
01:12:09.000 And I think that what we need to do is correct large data sets, and that's why I'm hoping Microdose.me is going to give us an enormous amount of data that clinicians can harvest from And going, we didn't anticipate this.
01:12:23.000 And like these meta-studies about partner-to-partner violence, when if your partner men had tripped on mushrooms, they were less prone to violence.
01:12:31.000 That was signal from the noise.
01:12:33.000 How many other signals from the noise of these big, big meta-files that we can pull out that we can get serious scientists to do really carefully controlled clinical studies to be able to see this?
01:12:48.000 And then How do you combine them?
01:12:52.000 I mean, it's a whole new landscape that gets away from single molecules and into the complexity of nature that we can build upon.
01:12:59.000 Navigating to that place is going to be a challenge.
01:13:01.000 There's no doubt about it.
01:13:02.000 But I think we're smart enough now, we have enough computer technologies and diagnostic tools that we should begin on that voyage today.
01:13:11.000 What do you think is responsible for that shift from Ted of 2008 to Ted of 2019?
01:13:17.000 Michael Pollan's book, probably.
01:13:19.000 Michael Pollan's book was the big bridge.
01:13:22.000 He has 40 pages on me.
01:13:25.000 And Michael, if you're listening, buddy, dude, I told him not to reveal my secret mushroom patch.
01:13:35.000 Never trust a journalist.
01:13:36.000 And Michael Pollan, bless his heart, I love him.
01:13:39.000 He's a great guy.
01:13:40.000 But he said in his book, so to speak, he says, Paul told me not to tell you where his secret mushroom patch is, but I can tell you that we slept in a yurt.
01:13:51.000 There are three state parks along the Columbia River, and two of them have yurts.
01:13:56.000 He just basically gave up your spot.
01:13:58.000 He gave up my spot.
01:14:00.000 And it's like, okay, Michael.
01:14:03.000 Why don't you do that?
01:14:05.000 I think it's the urge of a writer trying to give something to their readership.
01:14:10.000 So what happened to that spot?
01:14:11.000 Get trampled?
01:14:12.000 It's run over with people collecting suicide mushrooms.
01:14:16.000 They have big signs everywhere.
01:14:17.000 They arrest people.
01:14:18.000 It's a huge income source now.
01:14:19.000 For the cops?
01:14:20.000 For the cops because they bust people.
01:14:23.000 But the good news about that is I have gone on to these state parks and because there's big signs of no mushroom picking and law enforcement is there, There's lots of mushrooms.
01:14:34.000 They're everywhere.
01:14:35.000 And so I can photograph them, but you're not allowed to touch them.
01:14:39.000 So what do they check you on your way out?
01:14:41.000 Oh, they're like bees on honey, so to speak.
01:14:44.000 Come on.
01:14:45.000 They are hiding in the bushes.
01:14:47.000 That is so crazy.
01:14:47.000 There are alpha male types.
01:14:49.000 Can you imagine that?
01:14:49.000 They've got drugs growing out of the ground.
01:14:51.000 And they're like, don't touch it.
01:14:53.000 They swarm it.
01:14:54.000 Don't touch it.
01:14:55.000 I had a lot of fun with my friend because I got a stick.
01:14:58.000 And I go, okay, I touched the mushrooms with a stick.
01:15:02.000 Now, am I actually touching the mushrooms or not?
01:15:04.000 Because if you touch the mushrooms… Do they check your pockets?
01:15:06.000 They will search you, yeah.
01:15:08.000 They'll search you for just randomly.
01:15:10.000 No, if they have...
01:15:11.000 Reason to believe.
01:15:12.000 Reason to believe, they can search you.
01:15:14.000 Stuff them in your underwear, bro.
01:15:16.000 Just take a big fat baggie.
01:15:18.000 Or swallow them quickly.
01:15:20.000 But, you know, I don't...
01:15:21.000 This is...
01:15:22.000 It is preposterous.
01:15:23.000 Yeah, what if they find you lying down with your eyes dilated?
01:15:26.000 You'd have to talk to them.
01:15:29.000 I don't know if they would do a fecal sample later on or what.
01:15:32.000 But it approaches the absurd.
01:15:35.000 And this is when the law enforcement becomes absurd.
01:15:38.000 Even the law enforcement officers I know who – you've been in the martial arts a lot all your life.
01:15:45.000 Myself as well.
01:15:46.000 I had several schools for about 30 years.
01:15:48.000 And I had several law enforcement officers as students.
01:15:52.000 Yeah, they don't want to be involved in that nonsense.
01:15:54.000 They get roped into it by the system.
01:15:56.000 Yeah, this is not something they want to do.
01:15:59.000 I know a ton of cops.
01:16:00.000 None of them give a shit about mushrooms.
01:16:03.000 It's a hugely, hugely unfortunate consequence of really ridiculous laws.
01:16:09.000 And the idea of grown adults telling other grown adults that they can't do something that is incredibly beneficial, that they themselves have never experienced, so they have no knowledge of it at all, other than the ancient stereotypes.
01:16:24.000 Mushrooms being bad, mushrooms being for burnouts and losers and hippies and, oh, you can't handle life.
01:16:30.000 Or they're walking hypocrites and they know it.
01:16:33.000 They use it themselves.
01:16:35.000 That's the worst.
01:16:36.000 They're tormented, but they have to do this, so...
01:16:38.000 I found that most law enforcement officers are extremely reasonable as long as you show intent.
01:16:44.000 Your intention and respect.
01:16:46.000 Yeah, 100 percent.
01:16:47.000 So it's never been – but I don't subscribe to the defense that someone is doing for spiritual purposes and they have – You know, hundreds of pounds with Ziploc bags with scales in the basement and during a commercial operation.
01:17:02.000 You're avoiding taxes.
01:17:04.000 You're producing this as a factory.
01:17:07.000 You know, take it in the chin.
01:17:08.000 You get busted.
01:17:10.000 Hey, it comes with the territory.
01:17:11.000 Eyes wide open.
01:17:13.000 Don't cloak it in the veil of spirituality.
01:17:15.000 You're trying to...
01:17:16.000 Create a spiritual revolution.
01:17:17.000 Unless you're a true saint, you're giving that shit away.
01:17:19.000 Yeah.
01:17:20.000 Well, that would be different, but...
01:17:21.000 Yeah.
01:17:22.000 I have a phrase, nature provides, I don't, because I don't want to be responsible for another person's experience.
01:17:28.000 Oh, for sure.
01:17:29.000 What if they have a meltdown and they blame Joe Rogan?
01:17:31.000 Yes.
01:17:32.000 Paul Stamos.
01:17:32.000 Yes.
01:17:33.000 I don't...
01:17:34.000 I can't control...
01:17:36.000 That circumstance.
01:17:37.000 I don't want the responsibility.
01:17:39.000 That's one of the reasons why I've hesitated on getting involved in medical marijuana or commercial marijuana.
01:17:45.000 I've been offered and I'm always like, I just don't think this is the right.
01:17:48.000 Because you can't, especially with edibles, you can't control people.
01:17:52.000 You don't know what they're going to do.
01:17:54.000 I don't do edibles.
01:17:57.000 That's hilarious.
01:17:58.000 Well, I was at Kenyon College in 1973, and my dad was coming to visit.
01:18:03.000 And one of my people on the floor at this dormitory, they made some marijuana brownies.
01:18:10.000 Oh, boy.
01:18:11.000 Every good story starts that way.
01:18:14.000 I ate two brownies.
01:18:15.000 My dad's coming in two or three hours, so what the heck?
01:18:18.000 And I was so frigging stoned.
01:18:20.000 I could not believe it.
01:18:21.000 And I could barely – my eyes were really – I was trying to maintain it.
01:18:26.000 You know how it is.
01:18:26.000 You're trying to look like you're not stoned, but you're blitzed out of your gourd.
01:18:31.000 And so my dad was like, are you looking at me really curiously?
01:18:34.000 This is the early 1970s.
01:18:36.000 And so the next day I said, Dad, I got to tell you something.
01:18:38.000 I ate some marijuana brownies.
01:18:40.000 He goes, I knew something was wrong!
01:18:41.000 I knew!
01:18:42.000 I could tell!
01:18:42.000 I could tell!
01:18:43.000 Well, no shit, Sherlock.
01:18:44.000 I don't play on the floor.
01:18:46.000 Did he get mad at you?
01:18:48.000 No, he was actually amused and delighted that I explained to him why I look so stoned.
01:18:54.000 Oh, well, that's great that you had that kind of communication.
01:18:58.000 Yeah, just before he died, he wanted to trip on mushrooms.
01:19:01.000 And I turned him down.
01:19:05.000 Because he was close to the end of his life and he was very religious.
01:19:09.000 And I was concerned I would shake his reality tree so severely that he would question his entire life.
01:19:16.000 Because he was like the death of the salesman figure.
01:19:19.000 It was a tragic life that he led.
01:19:20.000 And the mushrooms could have helped him enormously.
01:19:24.000 But I was concerned that he would look back and go, I wasted my life.
01:19:28.000 So that was too heavy for me.
01:19:32.000 Maybe I'm being selfish because I was trying to protect my own feelings.
01:19:35.000 But he wanted to do it.
01:19:36.000 He asked me, actually, he said, I want to do soul side mushrooms with you.
01:19:40.000 And he wouldn't smoke pot.
01:19:42.000 Do you have regrets about that, about not doing it with him?
01:19:45.000 I do.
01:19:46.000 I have a lot of regrets about that.
01:19:49.000 So I have met several people in the past several weeks at Stanford Medical School, at these other conferences that I go to, which there's a brain-mind conference at Stanford Medical School.
01:20:02.000 In the first two sentences, they mentioned psilocybin.
01:20:05.000 120 neuroscientists, you know, and $150 billion in a room, and psilocybin was immediately mentioned.
01:20:12.000 And I met some people there that are intergenerational.
01:20:15.000 Grandparent, parent, and 18, 19-year-old child all journeyed with mushrooms together.
01:20:24.000 And their interpersonal relationships, they told me, you know, there's no reason for us ever to get mad at each other.
01:20:31.000 I just thought that was really powerful.
01:20:34.000 Wow.
01:20:35.000 Wow.
01:20:36.000 Yeah, that is powerful.
01:20:37.000 That sounds inconceivable to someone who's never experienced psychedelics, but someone who has, you go, yeah, I see how you could get there.
01:20:44.000 Yeah, don't make mountains out of molehills.
01:20:46.000 You can disagree without being angry, and you can be civil about it.
01:20:51.000 Well, that's a lesson the world could use right now.
01:20:54.000 I think this is, in many ways, the antidote for some of the problems that we're seeing with social media.
01:21:00.000 One of the problems we see with social media is this disconnect from the human experience, disconnect from communication, person-to-person communication, and this anger and vitriol and hate and rage.
01:21:12.000 And people hiding behind screen names and trolls.
01:21:14.000 You know, you're Joe Rogan, I'm Paul Stamets.
01:21:18.000 Well, who are these people with high-behind-screen names?
01:21:21.000 A great TED Talk, which I did not understand, and the TED Talk was fantastic, talking about why trolls do the things that they do.
01:21:28.000 They do it because they get excitement.
01:21:30.000 The idea is just to disturb the fabric, and the more disturbance they get, that is a measure of their success in provoking a response, even if they're not wedded to it.
01:21:40.000 They just want to be able to cause a ripple in the pond.
01:21:43.000 Yeah.
01:21:43.000 Well, they don't feel significant, so they want to do something that they can get some sort of reaction.
01:21:48.000 They have a rock.
01:21:49.000 They see a window.
01:21:50.000 They want to throw it.
01:21:51.000 It's a natural inclination.
01:21:53.000 But it's stupid.
01:21:54.000 It's barbaric.
01:21:55.000 But it's a waste of fucking time.
01:21:57.000 And some people celebrate it.
01:21:59.000 I'm like, okay, celebrate it.
01:22:00.000 You're not doing shit.
01:22:01.000 You're not doing shit for yourself.
01:22:02.000 You're not doing shit for other people.
01:22:04.000 You're not improving whatever your art is, whatever it is that you try to do in this life to leave your mark.
01:22:12.000 Or to contribute or to be creative.
01:22:13.000 You're not doing that if you're trolling.
01:22:15.000 You're just not.
01:22:16.000 All trollers should eat mushrooms.
01:22:18.000 Yes!
01:22:19.000 Well, all angry people should eat mushrooms.
01:22:21.000 Yeah, that's true.
01:22:22.000 I really agree with that.
01:22:25.000 Well, you know, there is good evidence that lion's mane also compensates in many of these neurogenic benefits that psilocybin does.
01:22:35.000 I think this stuff all the time.
01:22:36.000 This is like a lion's mane elixir that I pour.
01:22:39.000 Tell me if that shit's any good.
01:22:40.000 Well, it comes from China.
01:22:42.000 Is that bad?
01:22:44.000 Every Chinese expert that I've met said I wouldn't dare buy a mushroom from China.
01:22:49.000 Jesus Christ.
01:22:51.000 So, this is, we have a spoonable lion's mane.
01:22:53.000 Let's see what you got.
01:22:54.000 And I put that in smoothies all the time, and that's my go-to.
01:22:58.000 And that's exactly the research.
01:22:59.000 Can I put it in coffee?
01:23:00.000 Yeah, I put it in coffee.
01:23:01.000 And Jamie, can you pull up that?
01:23:03.000 How much did I put in here?
01:23:04.000 The neurogenesis benefits of lion's mane.
01:23:08.000 How much did I put in here?
01:23:09.000 Ooh, it's open.
01:23:09.000 It's not open yet, right?
01:23:11.000 No, it's sealed.
01:23:11.000 How much can I put in there?
01:23:12.000 I put about a teaspoon.
01:23:15.000 Teaspoon.
01:23:16.000 And then stir it in.
01:23:17.000 How about that?
01:23:20.000 That's good.
01:23:21.000 And this company in France that we did the neurogenic tests with found that the mycelium was far more active than the mushroom fruit bodies.
01:23:30.000 And so the lion's mane stimulates neurite outgrowth and basically extends the nerves from growing compared to baseline.
01:23:40.000 So in 7 to 12 days, a substantial up to 22% increase in neurite outgrowth.
01:23:48.000 What we found was actually, there was one that was at 8%, one was at 12%, and then separately we stacked it with an analog of psilocybin.
01:23:57.000 And rather than that being the arithmetic additive of cumulative, we found a synergy.
01:24:04.000 So we think that lion's mane, the research has shown, increases myelin regeneration on the sheath of the nerves.
01:24:12.000 And the psilocybin proliferates nerve tip growth.
01:24:15.000 So it should conceivably help you learn.
01:24:18.000 So this is an example.
01:24:19.000 This is an unexpected result.
01:24:21.000 There's lines named mycelium that's showing a 14, you know, basically a 14.8% over a baseline.
01:24:29.000 Then we have a psilocybin analog that didn't do all that great.
01:24:34.000 Which analog is this again?
01:24:36.000 I'm going to describe the analog for now for obvious reasons, but it's a legal analog.
01:24:42.000 It creates a 7% outgrowth of neurites.
01:24:45.000 But then we stacked it with lion's mane and the psilocybin analog.
01:24:51.000 There's a theoretical additive effect, 114 plus 107, 122. But we got 136. Statistically significant.
01:25:00.000 The outlier actually is even higher.
01:25:02.000 So the neuroscientists in France that did this study was extremely excited.
01:25:09.000 And we found that the more we titrated it to greater dilution, the more active it becomes.
01:25:16.000 What's that mean?
01:25:18.000 Titrate?
01:25:18.000 What does that mean?
01:25:19.000 We're diluting it.
01:25:21.000 And these are human cells, pluripotent stem cells.
01:25:24.000 And what we found was originally we were told it's called 3 micrograms per milligram or 3 micrograms, a millionth of a gram.
01:25:34.000 But when we went back to 0.03, 100 times less, the neurogenic benefits became greater.
01:25:44.000 Now there's something called the PK conversion.
01:25:48.000 The pharmacokinetics, when you ingest something, only a small portion of it may make it into your bloodstream.
01:25:54.000 But the good news is that these things are so non-toxic and they're so potent.
01:26:00.000 Now, looking at the dosing regimen, it appears so far, we haven't done this clinically, this is human cells in vitro, but this laboratory is predictive of neurogenic compounds that The neurogenic benefits are so substantial that the PK conversion of ingesting them can be seen in the bloodstream as a fairly good conversion rate.
01:26:26.000 For instance, if you take vanillic acid, vanilla, about 2% will make it into your bloodstream.
01:26:33.000 So if you take one whole gram of vanilla, only 2% actually gets in your bloodstream.
01:26:38.000 So that's the PK conversion.
01:26:40.000 So what we're seeing right now is the potency of this is so strong at lower and lower dilutions, we're getting more and more potency.
01:26:49.000 So I'm – this is – yeah, it's – I like to say dilution is a solution to profitability.
01:26:55.000 The more that we dilute, the more potent it becomes.
01:26:57.000 So this is why the neuroscientists in France are doing this study going, this stuff is so potent.
01:27:02.000 Please dilute it.
01:27:03.000 Dilute it.
01:27:04.000 Dilute it.
01:27:04.000 So – and so we're – we see this as a tremendous horizon that lion's mane is legal.
01:27:12.000 It's an edible and choice mushroom, thousand-year history of use.
01:27:17.000 We found that the mycelium is far more potent than the mushrooms for really good reasons.
01:27:24.000 Some of the compounds are called erinacines, and these are actually discovered by Kawagishi in 1994, looking for an antibacterial agent.
01:27:33.000 And so when he was looking at the mycelium fighting bacteria, He found that the mycelium expressed this antibacterial sciathane derivative and he gave it the name arinacine after hericium arinaceous,
01:27:48.000 just like penicillin is named after penicillium.
01:27:51.000 And so he'd stumbled on the fact that it has neurogenic properties and antibacterial properties.
01:27:57.000 So the mycelium is navigating through the ground through a hostile environment.
01:28:01.000 It's only one cell wall thick.
01:28:03.000 The mycelium has an immune system that's operational between 40 degrees Fahrenheit and 95 degrees Fahrenheit, 35 degrees Celsius.
01:28:12.000 That's the window it's growing in.
01:28:14.000 So its immune system is operative in that window.
01:28:17.000 When you do super hot water extracts, you're in the extreme zone.
01:28:21.000 That's not part of the immunological lifespan of the mushroom.
01:28:24.000 You're decocting it.
01:28:26.000 You're taking out ingredients, but you're not harnessing within the immunological window of temperatures that the mycelium has evolved to fight off pathogens.
01:28:36.000 And so what we have found is the mycelium is far more active than the fruit bodies.
01:28:40.000 This is all new science, but then mushroomreferences.com is populated with dozens upon dozens of peer-reviewed articles showing the mycelium is far more active than the fruit bodies.
01:28:51.000 And a whole genome sequencing of Reishi, for instance, founds 25% more genes coding for proteins are expressed at the mycelial state than at the mushroom state.
01:29:02.000 Well, it makes sense because the mushrooms at the end of millions of cell divisions over months, years, even decades, finally produce a mushroom that rots in five days.
01:29:11.000 The mushroom doesn't need a good immune system.
01:29:12.000 It's attracting mycovores, animals, deer, John just showed me some photographs.
01:29:20.000 He's going to show you.
01:29:21.000 He was in a campground and found deer in the morning digging up mushrooms out of the ground.
01:29:26.000 Well, animals engage mushrooms.
01:29:28.000 One of your colleagues here.
01:29:30.000 Or maybe it's Jeff.
01:29:31.000 I'm sorry.
01:29:33.000 Jeff, one of the guys who works here?
01:29:34.000 Oh, okay.
01:29:35.000 So the idea – but mushrooms attract insects, people, animals because they're fragrant, they're protein, they're nutritionally dense and they want to engage humans.
01:29:47.000 The mycelium is navigating through a microbially hostile environment.
01:29:51.000 And a report came out in the literature of over a thousand species of bacteria in a single gram.
01:29:56.000 There's more than eight miles of mycelium in a single cubic inch.
01:30:01.000 So the mycelium is navigating through a hostile microbial environment.
01:30:03.000 It's setting up guilds and microbiomes and collections of cooperating bacteria that can help them defend against pathogens.
01:30:12.000 Look at that.
01:30:12.000 Estimated up to eight miles of mycelium in a single inch of soil.
01:30:16.000 And it's only one cell wall thick.
01:30:18.000 That's such a weird-looking image.
01:30:20.000 It's so hard to see what that is.
01:30:22.000 That's a mushroom that's melted back into the ground.
01:30:25.000 It's mycelium.
01:30:26.000 Now the mushrooms generate mycelium and it goes underneath the ground.
01:30:29.000 So every time you're walking on the ground, you're walking upon miles upon miles of mycelium and it knows that you're there.
01:30:37.000 These are sensitive.
01:30:38.000 These are not only externalized stomachs.
01:30:41.000 There are digesting nutrients and externalized lungs exhaling carbon dioxide, inhaling oxygen, but I believe these are extant neurological networks of nature.
01:30:53.000 When you see that pervasiveness of those cells, and the climate change scientists are coming around to this, 70% of the carbon biologically is stored in mycelium in the ground.
01:31:03.000 The way to fight climate change is not only replanting trees, which is great, I love it, But it's the mycelial networks you're building in the humus that creates the soil, that creates the biodiversity that then guarantees the health of the ecosystem.
01:31:16.000 So it's the mycelial networks that govern because they're so pervasive.
01:31:19.000 They set up because they're antibacterial properties, they're probacterial properties.
01:31:25.000 Another example of this is in the microbiome of soils and inside of humans' stomachs.
01:31:30.000 Turkey-tailed mushrooms and a placebo-controlled randomized clinical study with humans from a scientist associated with Harvard found that turkey-tailed mycelium is a prebiotic for the microbiome.
01:31:47.000 That feeds Bifidobacterium lactobacillus and suppresses Clostridium, which is an inflammatory bacterium.
01:31:55.000 So it's really, really interesting that the mycelium is feeding nutrients to the beneficial bacteria within the microbiome that then gives us health.
01:32:06.000 And so these are precursor nutrients that elevate the populations of the beneficial bacteria.
01:32:12.000 So the two go hand in hand.
01:32:13.000 What about edible mushrooms?
01:32:15.000 Things like shiitake and those type of mushrooms.
01:32:18.000 Is there any nutritional benefit to those things?
01:32:21.000 Enormous nutritional benefit.
01:32:23.000 And there's been two also meta-studies that have come out this year showing that the ingestion of mushrooms with elderly people over the age of 60, there's a 50% increase.
01:32:39.000 Decreased odds of Alzheimer's-like symptoms with a population of people consuming three mushroom meals per week.
01:32:47.000 Now, they didn't specify the mushrooms.
01:32:49.000 This is out of Singapore.
01:32:51.000 But the mushrooms they're commonly eating are oyster mushrooms, shiitake, and shimeji.
01:32:56.000 And maybe some other mushrooms.
01:32:58.000 But that's one meta-study that came out.
01:33:00.000 There was a study out of Japan from Dr. Ikikawa at the National Cancer Center that found statistically significant reduction in cancers across the board.
01:33:10.000 I think 162,000 people in this data set.
01:33:13.000 And he was sent over to Nagano Prefecture to look for this.
01:33:16.000 And these are edible and delicious mushrooms.
01:33:17.000 Also, they empower the immune system.
01:33:20.000 Again, signal from the noise.
01:33:22.000 Statistically significant reduction in overall cancer rates.
01:33:25.000 Associated with a food.
01:33:27.000 The division now between, you know, foods and medicines is blurred.
01:33:32.000 And yet it speaks to Hippocrates and Dioscorides, stating that, let food be thy medicine, medicine be thy food.
01:33:40.000 So it's interesting because physicians have been taught, you know, this sort of monomolecular approach to medicine, and now we're realizing that these foods are essential nutrients for your immune system that down-regulates inflammation.
01:33:54.000 It's so interesting that we're learning all this during our lifetime, too.
01:33:58.000 Do you think that would all be established by now?
01:34:01.000 Well, I'm glad you asked that.
01:34:02.000 We have a paper coming out in the next two or three days, maybe in the next week.
01:34:07.000 And it's on turkey tail mycelium, grown on rice.
01:34:11.000 And we were able to find out something that no one had reported in the literature.
01:34:15.000 The traditional Chinese medicine approach is that these are immunomodulators.
01:34:18.000 They help the immune system, but they also are not inflammatory.
01:34:22.000 When you have an immune response, oftentimes associated with an inflammatory response, blood rushes to the wound, you inflame, you have all these compounds that are being produced by the blood to suppress an infection.
01:34:35.000 But you can over-amp the immune system and have a pro-inflammatory response that can cause a lot of oxidative stress damage collaterally.
01:34:44.000 And so the article that's just coming out with BMC, Biomed Central, alternative and complementary medicine, peer-reviewed, we have found that the mycelium when it grows on rice Bioferments the rice to then produce a unique immunological response that upregulates what's called interleukin-1-RA and interleukin-10.
01:35:09.000 These are anti-inflammatory cytokines.
01:35:12.000 And so the mycelium doesn't do that.
01:35:15.000 The mushrooms don't do that.
01:35:16.000 But the mycelium is biofermented.
01:35:18.000 The rice like tempeh is transformed or like yogurt It comes from milk because of lactobacillus or acidophilus and that transformation then makes a novel product.
01:35:33.000 We found the same thing that the rice compared to the rice control has no anti-inflammatory properties.
01:35:39.000 The mycelium because of the extracellular metabolites changes the rice into a unique immunological product.
01:35:46.000 That excites the expression of anti-inflammatory compounds while also exciting the pro-immune response.
01:35:53.000 So it's a buffered response.
01:35:55.000 It's interesting too that you're bringing this up that it's growing on something else.
01:35:58.000 That seems to be part of nature, right?
01:36:01.000 This sort of symbiotic relationship that some of these mushrooms have with the plants and the environment around them.
01:36:07.000 That's a really, really good point because The mycelium we found with the bees, when we grew the mycelium on rice compared to on birch wood, The mycelium grown rice reduced the viruses 10 to 1. The mycelium we grew it on birch reduced the viruses up to 1,000 to 1. Oh,
01:36:31.000 so that's its natural environment.
01:36:33.000 So that speaks to the fact that there appears to be something that's coding within the ecosystem that then excites the mycelium to produce something that is more strongly resulting in antiviral activity.
01:36:48.000 That's the case with cordyceps as well, right?
01:36:50.000 Cordyceps mushrooms grow on other things.
01:36:54.000 Yeah, but the cordyceps mushrooms, when they grow on the worms, this is something that was a big subject of debate because cordyceps sinensis is a mushroom that grows on a worm, basically.
01:37:09.000 Like a little caterpillar.
01:37:10.000 On a caterpillar larvae in the Himalayas, elsewhere in China and the Far East.
01:37:16.000 And people were finding these cordyceps mushrooms and they were cloning them and then they got the culture going and then they analyzed the culture and they got what's called an anamorph.
01:37:26.000 It's not that complicated.
01:37:28.000 It's just two faces of the same coin.
01:37:30.000 There's a mushroom fruit body and then there's this imperfect form that is a different looking organism but they're actually the same.
01:37:38.000 They have two different expressions.
01:37:42.000 All the scientific literature kept on coming up with different anamorphs.
01:37:45.000 And so they all had all this competition in the scientific literature.
01:37:48.000 What is a true anamorph of Cordyceps sinensis?
01:37:51.000 Well, now it's called Afiocordyceps sinensis.
01:37:53.000 They redefined it.
01:37:54.000 It's called Sensu stricto.
01:37:56.000 And when they analyzed the mushrooms, not until recently they discovered that another group of fungi are chasing the Cordyceps sinensis.
01:38:07.000 As the fruit body develops, other fungi are chasing right behind the other fungus.
01:38:12.000 So you have multiple fungi that are actually present in the cordyceps worm.
01:38:17.000 It's not just one species, it's multiple species that are co-occurring, chasing each other inside the cordyceps mushroom as its fruits.
01:38:27.000 So again, it just speaks to the complexity of nature.
01:38:30.000 Wow.
01:38:32.000 So where should you get your Cordyceps source for health benefits?
01:38:36.000 You know, that's a really good question.
01:38:39.000 Cordyceps militaris does not have these issues that Cordyceps sinensis does.
01:38:43.000 The problem is Cordyceps sinensis, thousands of articles have been published, really which one they're talking about.
01:38:49.000 It's like it's all mixed up now.
01:38:50.000 What is a true anamorph for these scientists using?
01:38:53.000 There are ones called Pisciliomyces.
01:38:57.000 There's other ones that Hercetella sinensis is now thought to be the true anamorph for Cordyceps sinensis.
01:39:03.000 What all this lingo means is basically there's a mushroom with a whole bunch of other fungi that are associated with it and when they cultured these other fungi, they did clinical studies or research studies and they came up with results.
01:39:13.000 The problem is that they've mixed it up into four or five different species and you can't sort of D, disambiguate the data now because it's too complicated.
01:39:23.000 So it's a really good question.
01:39:25.000 The Cordyceps militaris does not have these issues.
01:39:28.000 And so I would steer people to Cordyceps militaris right now because the Cordyceps sinensis, the Ophiocordyceps sinensis issues are still complicated.
01:39:38.000 And now virtually thousands of research articles are all now suspect because no one has a foggiest idea what anamorph they were using.
01:39:46.000 Oh, wow.
01:39:47.000 It speaks to the complexity of the system.
01:39:51.000 And how many people are actually working on this data, too?
01:39:55.000 Oh, thousands of researchers.
01:39:57.000 And I'm thankful that the Chinese mycologists were the ones who finally sorted this out.
01:40:02.000 There was a lot of conflict academically.
01:40:04.000 There's a lot of big egos in academia.
01:40:07.000 People get wedded to their own research.
01:40:09.000 We're all like that.
01:40:10.000 And the challenges went back and forth.
01:40:13.000 And Fortunately, a group of Chinese scientists finally were able to narrow down the argument to understand that everyone was actually doing good culture work.
01:40:22.000 They were actually expert mycologists taking the right tissue, taking it from the right cordyceps mushroom.
01:40:29.000 It's just that at that time, they had a different fungus that was naturally part of the inside of the mushroom that was a mixture of fungi that were racing at different paces up the mushroom.
01:40:40.000 Well, the Chinese were the first to use it for a performance benefit, right?
01:40:44.000 Or they were the first to at least be publicized to use it in the Olympics.
01:40:48.000 They were using cordyceps mushrooms.
01:40:50.000 That was one of the reasons why at Onnit we developed Shroom Tech Sport, which is a cordyceps mushroom-based supplement.
01:40:56.000 I love cordyceps for workouts, for pre-workout.
01:41:00.000 It gives you an extra gear.
01:41:02.000 It's really kind of crazy how effective it is, especially in combination with B12. And other adaptogens.
01:41:08.000 It's a great pre-workout supplement because it doesn't get you jittery at all.
01:41:13.000 It's not a stimulant.
01:41:15.000 But you have a little more juice when you exercise.
01:41:18.000 And that's one of the things that those high-altitude hurting populations have found, right?
01:41:22.000 That's exactly right.
01:41:23.000 It's likely to be a vasodilator, and it has steroidal-like benefits as well.
01:41:28.000 So the cordyceps for athletes has been tried and true, and many of these anamorphs that I mentioned have those properties.
01:41:37.000 So for athletes, what dose would you recommend?
01:41:41.000 Well, I'm not a medical doctor, so when people ask me recommendations, I know that the common usage of these is in the order of 2 grams.
01:41:50.000 There are usually 500 milligram capsules.
01:41:54.000 There's lots of good companies that are producing this.
01:41:57.000 I would just make sure it's mycelial-based, it's not fruit-body-based.
01:42:01.000 The clear evidence is showing the How would one find out whether something's mycelium-based?
01:42:06.000 It should declare it.
01:42:07.000 We say mushroom mycelium on all of our labels.
01:42:10.000 And if you were going to take that, like if you weren't going to take Shroom Tech Sport, if you wanted to make your own concoction, you would recommend two grams and then...
01:42:18.000 And make sure you know the chain of custody of where it came from because a lot of these companies buy on the spot market.
01:42:25.000 What company is this that you gave me?
01:42:26.000 Host Defense?
01:42:27.000 Host Defense.
01:42:28.000 Is this yours?
01:42:29.000 Is this your company?
01:42:29.000 Yep.
01:42:30.000 Oh, okay.
01:42:30.000 We'll support you.
01:42:31.000 Host Defense, and is there a website where someone can grab this?
01:42:34.000 Yeah, fungi.com or hostdefense.com.
01:42:36.000 And do you sell cordyceps as well?
01:42:39.000 Yes, we do.
01:42:40.000 Oh, there you go.
01:42:42.000 And do you take this stuff before you exercise?
01:42:44.000 Do you take cordyceps?
01:42:46.000 Absolutely.
01:42:46.000 Yeah, I take cordyceps.
01:42:47.000 I take Lion's Mane and Seven Species Blend in particular.
01:42:51.000 Seven Species Blend.
01:42:52.000 What's in that stuff?
01:42:53.000 It's Stamets Seven.
01:42:54.000 It's got Chaga.
01:42:55.000 It's got Reishi.
01:42:57.000 It has a Garacon.
01:42:58.000 It's got a birch polypore called Piptoporus betulinus.
01:43:03.000 And so it has Mitaki in it.
01:43:06.000 And these are a seven species blend.
01:43:09.000 But the evidence for physicians and people who want to look at peer-reviewed articles...
01:43:16.000 The single species have the most elaborated and convincing evidence when you start compounding these.
01:43:24.000 So what we're doing, we have five or six full-time researchers, several PhDs on our staff, We are, again, trying to disambiguate the complexity of all these benefits by looking at one species at a time.
01:43:38.000 So we're doing this methodically, spending hundreds of thousands of dollars literally a year now.
01:43:43.000 I have 110 employees.
01:43:45.000 And I created my company in order to do research.
01:43:48.000 I have no partners.
01:43:51.000 So I can now dedicate the resources to be able to do novel research.
01:43:56.000 And we love going up against conventional wisdom.
01:43:59.000 Because you have to challenge conventional wisdom to see if it indeed meets the muster.
01:44:04.000 For instance, beta-glucans.
01:44:05.000 How big is a beta-glucan?
01:44:07.000 10,000 Daltons?
01:44:09.000 A million Daltons?
01:44:10.000 I have no idea what any of those words you just said were.
01:44:12.000 Beta-glucans are big polymers of sugars.
01:44:15.000 And so the big myth out there is beta-glucans are the golden compound that used to standardize products to.
01:44:23.000 But there is not a certified method for beta-glucan analysis.
01:44:28.000 We have an article coming out also on a 17-species blend using the same, it's called the Megazyme test, the same Megazyme test With the same exact test, the same samples,
01:44:43.000 one sample got less than 1%, and the other sample got more than 30%.
01:44:48.000 That is a disparate range of data that does not give you any confidence.
01:44:54.000 And so the beta-glucan method, how big is the beta-glucans?
01:44:59.000 The beta-glucans are a giant scaffolding.
01:45:02.000 It's like the structure of this building.
01:45:04.000 And inside that scaffolding is all these other compounds that are adornments that are embedded in this giant scaffolding.
01:45:12.000 And so we did a clinical study with turkey tail mushrooms and breast cancer that was published in a peer-reviewed journal.
01:45:18.000 And the scientists that I worked with, Ken Quayle et al, I think in 2016, I think, published an article where they use lipases, which is an enzyme that dissolves lipids.
01:45:33.000 Because I was arguing the beta-glucans are a huge scaffolding.
01:45:36.000 There's the other components inside the beta-glucans that are immunologically active.
01:45:40.000 And they had been reading literature, it's all predominantly beta-glucans.
01:45:45.000 I said, well, let's do an experiment.
01:45:46.000 And they did.
01:45:47.000 They took the ball and ran with it.
01:45:48.000 And then they put this fat-dissolving enzyme, lipases, and they stripped the lipids, the fats, from the beta-glucan scaffolding.
01:46:02.000 Then they took that product without the lipids and it reduced immune response by 83%.
01:46:09.000 Thus proving that the lipids that were inside the beta-glucans were pharmacologically apt.
01:46:14.000 Now, why that's important, if you do hot water extracts, you don't get fats.
01:46:19.000 As you know, fats is not miscible in water.
01:46:21.000 And so that's why fats separate.
01:46:23.000 So having these fats, and we're made of fat.
01:46:25.000 Cholesterol is good for you.
01:46:27.000 Fats are good for you.
01:46:28.000 Wait, what are you saying?
01:46:31.000 Well, you're a paleo guy, right?
01:46:33.000 So you know this, you know, from the fats or...
01:46:36.000 Yeah, I don't like that word, paleo, because I think it's a little inaccurate, like what people ate during the Paleolithic.
01:46:44.000 I like calling it primordial.
01:46:46.000 Yeah, that's a good one.
01:46:48.000 Primal, you know, some people call it the primal, primal diet.
01:46:52.000 Yeah.
01:46:53.000 But this just speaks to the fact that every mushroom species is like a miniature pharmaceutical factory.
01:46:59.000 And what makes a species is the accumulation of those compounds that are different mixtures.
01:47:05.000 There's around 1.5 million species of fungi.
01:47:09.000 150,000 species are mushroom-forming fungi.
01:47:13.000 We've identified around 15,000 species.
01:47:16.000 Of those 15,000 species, we have about 20 to 40 species that we know are beneficial for human health.
01:47:23.000 Well, that's a pretty good selection criteria.
01:47:24.000 Going from 14,000 identified species or potentially 150,000 out there.
01:47:28.000 We haven't identified most of them.
01:47:30.000 But our ancestors, through trial and error, have narrowed the field of candidates down to about 20 to 40 species that we know, because of their molecular arrangements and complexity, benefit human health.
01:47:43.000 Now, when people pick mushrooms, when they go out and pick mushrooms, the real issue seems to be that there's some mushrooms that are edible that look very close to mushrooms, very similar to mushrooms that are very poisonous.
01:48:01.000 Welcome to my show!
01:48:18.000 Which is commonly cultivated and collected in Asia.
01:48:21.000 Many of the mushroom deaths in North America have come from, not displaced peoples, but people who've come from Asia, and because they're secretive in the language barrier and the culture of being wild collectors, they then mistake the destroying angel for a patty straw mushroom.
01:48:39.000 That's a real common mistake.
01:48:40.000 There are other people who said, well, it just looked edible.
01:48:44.000 That's a really dangerous thing to say.
01:48:46.000 Jesus Christ.
01:48:46.000 You have to know species individually.
01:48:49.000 Right.
01:48:49.000 There's edible species of Amanita, and there's poisonous ones, and there's deadly poisonous ones.
01:48:54.000 Amanita seems to have a lot of controversy as far as its efficacy, as far as like its psychedelic efficacy.
01:49:00.000 What's that?
01:49:01.000 I don't know anybody that's ever really tripped off of it.
01:49:04.000 Muscaria or Amanita?
01:49:05.000 Yeah.
01:49:06.000 Oh man, do I have a story.
01:49:07.000 Please.
01:49:08.000 Oh my God.
01:49:09.000 Because everybody that I know, like, and that was something that McKenna talked about as well.
01:49:13.000 Terence talked about while he was alive.
01:49:15.000 He said that it seems that it's genetically variable, seasonally variable, perhaps even environmentally variable.
01:49:23.000 All those things are partially true.
01:49:25.000 I've eaten aminine muscaria four or five times.
01:49:28.000 Aminine muscaria is the red mushroom with the white dots.
01:49:30.000 It's the fairytale mushroom.
01:49:31.000 It's perfectly legal, Santa Claus mushroom.
01:49:33.000 It contains muslimol, muscarin, and ebutynic acid.
01:49:38.000 Actually, very small amounts of muscarin.
01:49:41.000 But the muscarinic symptoms cause salivation and sweating.
01:49:45.000 And I tripped with my friend on Mnida muscaria and I looked at him and he was foaming at the mouth.
01:49:55.000 And I had all these bubbles coming out of his mouth.
01:49:57.000 And I go, man, dude, you look like you have rabies.
01:49:59.000 He goes, you should see what you look like.
01:50:02.000 But then Aminida muscaria, I've eaten that a few times.
01:50:05.000 And people do boil it in water, throw away the water twice, and they can make it into an edible mushroom.
01:50:11.000 But it's not that great of an edible.
01:50:13.000 But there's another mushroom called Aminida pantherina.
01:50:17.000 Pantherina muscaria.
01:50:18.000 It's a kick-ass mushroom.
01:50:19.000 It has five times or more the amounts of emusimol and ebutinic acid, almost no muscarin.
01:50:26.000 So the salivation effect of Aminida muscaria.
01:50:30.000 So I had a very good friend.
01:50:33.000 We are not friends anymore, unfortunately.
01:50:36.000 But I was in charge of the herbarium at the Evergreen State College.
01:50:40.000 And I freeze-dried Aminida pantherina.
01:50:43.000 They're called panther caps.
01:50:44.000 They're brown in color and they have dots.
01:50:47.000 Very good.
01:50:49.000 The panther cap.
01:50:50.000 Perfectly legal mushroom and extraordinarily powerful.
01:50:54.000 So I was living up in Darrington, Washington.
01:50:57.000 I had this cabin.
01:50:58.000 I was a logger hippie for a few years.
01:51:00.000 And so my friend Dave came up and I had these freeze-dried mushrooms from the herbarium.
01:51:05.000 And I said, let's go ahead and eat these.
01:51:07.000 And I had read in the literature and almost no one had eaten them.
01:51:10.000 So we made an omelet and we cooked it.
01:51:13.000 And he was much lighter than me.
01:51:14.000 So I thought, well, I should have two-thirds of the omelet, right?
01:51:17.000 Because he's lighter than me.
01:51:19.000 So we ate the mushrooms around 10 o'clock.
01:51:23.000 And we're living in this cabin, but across the creek was a Squire Creek campground.
01:51:28.000 And it was what we call the Winnebago people, right?
01:51:32.000 Back then in the 70s, I hitchhiked across the country 13 times.
01:51:36.000 Winnebago never picked me up.
01:51:37.000 So they were always the enemy.
01:51:39.000 And so we were long-haired hippies, you know.
01:51:42.000 We ate these mushrooms and we thought for entertainment, let's go look at the Winnebago people.
01:51:48.000 So we, it was so close, I don't know why we drove our car, but we drove the car out of my cabin, we went down like a half a mile, we turned left into the Squire Creek campground.
01:52:01.000 And we parked the car and we wanted to go up to a beautiful view spot.
01:52:05.000 And so we walked through the Winnebago people and their families and everything else and we get up onto a ridge.
01:52:12.000 And we thought, this is a great view spot.
01:52:14.000 But we're waiting like an hour.
01:52:16.000 No effect.
01:52:18.000 You know, and I was talking to Dave.
01:52:19.000 I said, wow, maybe these aren't that potent.
01:52:21.000 And then right after we said that, I looked at Dave and I said, David, do you see that?
01:52:29.000 And he goes, yeah.
01:52:31.000 And we waited a few more seconds and this big distortion field.
01:52:35.000 And we had a beautiful view of the volcanoes and the valleys, a big viewscape, but we could see the air would have become sort of this liquid.
01:52:42.000 And then it started coming on stronger and stronger and stronger.
01:52:47.000 And we go, oh my God, this is getting intense.
01:52:50.000 We better get the heck out of here and go home where it's safe because this is coming on so strong.
01:52:56.000 So we come down off this little plateau and we had to come down through the Winnebago people.
01:53:03.000 And then, oh my God, and here we're walking.
01:53:05.000 The thing about Amanitas and Muscaria and Pantherina, you have dull yellows and browns, but you feel like this giant, and you're moving in slow motion.
01:53:17.000 Every step you're taking, you know?
01:53:19.000 You feel like this giant but moving really slow.
01:53:21.000 And then I came to Winnebago's of no end.
01:53:24.000 They were hundreds of feet long.
01:53:26.000 I'm trying to walk past this Winnebago.
01:53:28.000 I'm like, when is this Winnebago going to end?
01:53:30.000 I keep on walking further and further.
01:53:32.000 And then, oh, my God.
01:53:34.000 And so then we're really, just really, really high.
01:53:37.000 It was ridiculous.
01:53:38.000 I had a Roliflex camera.
01:53:41.000 And we came up to the car.
01:53:42.000 And so for some friggin' reason, I locked the car.
01:53:46.000 And so I had my key.
01:53:48.000 I looked at my key and I looked at the lock.
01:53:50.000 I went, bam, missed.
01:53:53.000 Oh, shit.
01:53:54.000 Okay, pulled the key back, missed.
01:53:57.000 But Dave goes, are you okay?
01:53:59.000 I go, I'm fine.
01:54:00.000 He goes, do you want me to drive?
01:54:01.000 And I go, no way, dude.
01:54:02.000 If I'm this high, there's no way I want you to drive, right?
01:54:05.000 And so I did it over and over again.
01:54:07.000 Then magically, just for repetition, it just made it into the lock.
01:54:10.000 So I unlock the door, and I get into the car, and I drop my camera.
01:54:16.000 And then I'm in the car, and I'm trying to get my key in.
01:54:20.000 Thank God I didn't get my key in.
01:54:21.000 I was not safe to drive.
01:54:23.000 And then Dave is going like, oh my God, Paul, we're so friggin' high right now.
01:54:27.000 And I go...
01:54:29.000 And I said, well, let's go home.
01:54:30.000 I said, did I drop my camera?
01:54:32.000 And I went over and I looked at the ground and there was my camera.
01:54:35.000 I picked it up and I'm going, wow, Dave, I dropped my camera.
01:54:40.000 Dropped my camera again.
01:54:42.000 I go, wow, Dave, did I drop my camera?
01:54:44.000 Picked up my camera and I go, Whoa, I dropped my camera.
01:54:48.000 I did this over and over and over again.
01:54:51.000 Repetitive motion syndrome kicked in.
01:54:54.000 It is a very common symptom of the Amity Pantherina.
01:54:56.000 I dropped my camera dozens and dozens of times.
01:54:59.000 How did it look at the end?
01:55:01.000 Well, it was shattered.
01:55:02.000 But Dave goes, Paul, you should look up.
01:55:05.000 And a whole bunch of people from the Winnebago community had lined up, holding their children in close proximity, watching this repetitive motion syndrome where I'm just constantly...
01:55:17.000 So they're watching you for entertainment where you went to watch them for entertainment.
01:55:21.000 And now they're freaking out because I have this repetitive motion syndrome and I take one step, I drop my camera, Wow, Dave, I dropped my camera.
01:55:28.000 And I pick up my camera again.
01:55:30.000 I go, did I just drop my camera?
01:55:32.000 Whoa, I dropped my camera again.
01:55:33.000 Now, this speaks to the berserkers.
01:55:35.000 And the berserkers, the word berserk came from the berserkers in Scandinavia, where the legend has it that there were these Scandinavians, the Vikings, were surrounded and outnumbered.
01:55:48.000 And they were going to be killed the next day.
01:55:50.000 And they ate a whole bunch of Amnita muscaria.
01:55:53.000 And a big soup.
01:55:54.000 And legend has it, and it's not been confirmed, but this is the legend that's very commonly reiterated, is that they drank a whole bunch of muscaria soup, and then they went, and the next day, even though they're massively outnumbered, they took off all their clothes and they attacked the enemy naked with swords.
01:56:13.000 And that's where the word berserk came from, the berserkers.
01:56:16.000 So I'm having this berserker experience of repetitive motion syndrome and I'm dropping my camera over and over and over again and I looked up and these parents were holding their children and were totally freaking out, you know?
01:56:27.000 I said, we got to get out of here.
01:56:29.000 So we left the doors open in the car.
01:56:31.000 And I'm taking one or two steps, dropping my camera, picking it up, dropping my camera.
01:56:35.000 We finally made it back.
01:56:36.000 He disappeared.
01:56:37.000 I didn't know.
01:56:38.000 I said, Dave, you're on your own.
01:56:39.000 Dude, I have enough to worry about.
01:56:42.000 I made it back to my cabin and I get to my cabin and there's a combination lock.
01:56:46.000 I go, oh no, I don't need a combination lock right now.
01:56:49.000 I can barely – I'm spinning the lock back and forth, spinning back and forth.
01:56:53.000 And then eventually the lock just spontaneously opened and then I fell on the ground and I started convulsing.
01:56:59.000 And the cool thing about convulsing was it felt good.
01:57:02.000 Every time I convulsed, I actually went, oh, that feels so good.
01:57:05.000 So I would convulse some more.
01:57:07.000 And I was just convulsing constantly.
01:57:09.000 Like epileptic convulsions?
01:57:11.000 Epileptic convulsions.
01:57:12.000 Very, very intense.
01:57:13.000 But they felt – Good.
01:57:14.000 This is the weird thing about it.
01:57:16.000 I needed to convulse because every time I convulse, I kind of got a reset of my neurology, you know, baseline, and then it's been out of control.
01:57:24.000 And then I had this cascade of Einsteinian thoughts.
01:57:27.000 I'm going, oh my God, I can save the world.
01:57:29.000 I know how to do this.
01:57:30.000 Then I would have a prepositional or an verbial phrase.
01:57:33.000 And just before I came to the object of my thought that was Einsteinian insight, I would have a tangent.
01:57:40.000 And then I would come to the course at the end of that sentence and then I have another tangent.
01:57:44.000 I saw death as a perpetual series of alternatives that never gave me the satisfaction of a conclusive thought.
01:57:52.000 And so I was – this lasted for about 12 hours.
01:57:56.000 I fainted.
01:57:58.000 I went into – So you recommend it?
01:58:01.000 No, I do not recommend it.
01:58:04.000 And the biggest concern besides the repetitive motion syndrome is hypothermia.
01:58:09.000 Because if you're out in the woods or something and you're exposed, you're not getting up.
01:58:12.000 So you go – it's called soma for a reason.
01:58:15.000 It's the soma mushroom.
01:58:17.000 It's somniferous.
01:58:18.000 It causes sleep.
01:58:19.000 Is that what soma is?
01:58:20.000 Because isn't there some debate as to what soma actually is?
01:58:23.000 That's what R. Gordon Watson proposed soma in the Vedic literature.
01:58:26.000 There's a big debate about that.
01:58:28.000 But the other story I like to tell is my friend Dr. Andrew Weil was at the Cougar Hot Springs in Oregon.
01:58:35.000 And Andy's a medical doctor from Harvard and he was walking the trail and people came running down and said, oh my god, this guy's trying to kill himself.
01:58:42.000 You've got to come up.
01:58:43.000 And Andy went up and this guy had eaten a whole bunch of Andy Muscaria.
01:58:46.000 Big biker dude.
01:58:48.000 And he was covered with blood.
01:58:50.000 And he was up on a bridge.
01:58:52.000 And he was swinging his legs back and forth, and he was above the rocks, and he threw himself off the bridge.
01:58:58.000 Now, it was only about six or eight feet, but it's enough on the boulders down below.
01:59:03.000 Smashed himself on the rocks, and then he climbed back up on the bridge.
01:59:08.000 And he swung his feet and threw himself off the bridge.
01:59:11.000 So this causes repetitive motion syndrome.
01:59:15.000 Both of my camera, etc.
01:59:17.000 It's a mushroom that's perfectly legal.
01:59:18.000 It's probably one of the most dangerous mushrooms that anyone could eat.
01:59:21.000 I definitely advise not doing this because I always thought if I was ever called as an expert witness having these experiences and someone who was watching Tales from the Crypt on TV and then they saw a knife It causes temporary insanity.
01:59:39.000 I mean, the psilocyte mushrooms are wonderful, they're peaceful, they're loving, it's an empatico, right?
01:59:45.000 But the Amanita mushrooms cause this strange, strange sort of behavior that is really potentially dangerous.
01:59:54.000 And that is the mushroom that was documented in the sacred mushroom in the cross where John Marco Allegro alleged that the entire Christian religion was essentially misunderstanding.
02:00:06.000 It was really all about the consumption of the psychedelic mushrooms and fertility rituals.
02:00:11.000 These were all sort of captured in stories and tales and parables.
02:00:17.000 Yeah, it was an academic suicide for him to come out with that statement and still very controversial.
02:00:24.000 Have you read his work?
02:00:25.000 Yes, I have.
02:00:26.000 What do you think?
02:00:28.000 Well, linguistically, the guy is way over my head.
02:00:30.000 If you read his book, it's all about linguistics.
02:00:33.000 One of the translators of the Dead Sea Scrolls.
02:00:36.000 Way beyond my ken of knowledge.
02:00:38.000 It's so far beyond my ken of knowledge, I can't make rhyme or reason out of it.
02:00:41.000 That seems to be the problem with it.
02:00:43.000 Most people can't.
02:00:44.000 Yeah.
02:00:46.000 And there's threads of truth in all of this.
02:00:48.000 But I don't buy it, you know, on its face, on the grandiose conclusions that he made.
02:00:56.000 But clearly, mushrooms have inspired religion.
02:00:59.000 And I teach these workshops on gourmet and medicinal mushrooms.
02:01:03.000 And at one of these workshops, this very spiritual guy, he's very quiet, but very definitely, you know, it looked like the real deal.
02:01:12.000 He waited until everyone was gone.
02:01:15.000 And he said, Paul, I've been sent here.
02:01:18.000 I said, really?
02:01:20.000 And he says, I'm a devout Christian.
02:01:23.000 I'm in Billy Graham's inner circle.
02:01:26.000 And a bunch of us take suicide mushrooms as sacraments.
02:01:30.000 And it's brought us closer to Jesus, closer to our religion.
02:01:35.000 Now, I don't care if you're Muslim or Christian or Hindu.
02:01:39.000 The idea of these mushrooms making you...
02:01:42.000 Feel the spiritual universe, more spiritually connected, given your cultural heritage and your reference points.
02:01:49.000 But he said these are extremely important.
02:01:52.000 Now, my mother was a charismatic Christian.
02:01:54.000 I met some people in her group who came to their religious beliefs through psychedelics.
02:02:01.000 Don't do psychedelics now.
02:02:04.000 But that was their portal.
02:02:05.000 They had their big revelation through psychedelics.
02:02:08.000 So the connection between psilocybin and magic mushrooms and religion I think has a lot of credibility and there's lots of great examples of that.
02:02:19.000 The specificity Some of the arguments people make, I have great, great doubts about.
02:02:27.000 That's interesting.
02:02:28.000 What about in the ancient Hindu religions?
02:02:31.000 The ancient Hinduism and some of the ancient books speak of various sacraments that have sort of never been defined, right?
02:02:40.000 Yeah, and why is that Brahmin cows are sacred?
02:02:42.000 You know, when the slasabi cubensis grows out of cow poop in India, and yet they won't eat cows.
02:02:47.000 And Buddha supposedly died from a mushroom.
02:02:50.000 And he was given a mushroom by a peasant and ingested the mushroom and died.
02:02:56.000 So there is that connection.
02:02:58.000 I've always thought I was curious that the psilocybe cubensis is such a religious provoking mushroom and yet cows are highly revered as being sacred.
02:03:07.000 Well, I would think you would keep the mother of the mushroom sacred.
02:03:11.000 You want to protect the resource.
02:03:13.000 But again, these are at times when fables and parables and religious rites were controlled by the cognoscente.
02:03:22.000 And they were the gatekeepers of knowledge that was too powerful for the general population to understand or appreciate, and so they protected that knowledge.
02:03:31.000 And that's the rule of most religions, is that the inner circle, you know, holds the keys to the kingdom.
02:03:37.000 And what's happened with orthodox religions is they create institutions where you have to pay tithings in order to have a gatekeeper to have a contact with God.
02:03:46.000 And that, I think, is the problem of monotheism versus polytheism.
02:03:50.000 Jack Herrer, before he died, was working on a book about psychedelic drugs, specifically mushrooms, and religious experiences.
02:04:00.000 And he had some really crazy old paintings that he had found that showed people that were naked seemingly dancing in ecstasy with a translucent mushroom around them.
02:04:13.000 The idea being that this image was supposed to represent someone who was tripping.
02:04:20.000 There's a lot of really interesting books that have been published that show art going back hundreds of years, even into the late 1300s, showing You know,
02:04:36.000 Christian art where mushrooms are pretty easily seen.
02:04:43.000 So there's a lot of history to that, but it becomes the unfathomable.
02:04:47.000 I mean, maybe you can imagine it to be true, but how can you prove it to be true?
02:04:51.000 Right.
02:04:51.000 How can you?
02:04:52.000 So a lot of that is like, it's great historical information.
02:04:56.000 Probably a lot of it's true.
02:04:57.000 Hard to say which is true and which is not.
02:05:00.000 But it seems reasonable, right?
02:05:01.000 Yeah, but in modern times now, Johns Hopkins, the clinical studies are on mysticism, spirituality, showing that these are some of the most spiritually significant experiences of people's lives.
02:05:13.000 The interesting thing about the Johns Hopkins studies is that 70% of the people had positive experiences, and 14 months later, We're good to go.
02:05:48.000 You rekindle that thought.
02:05:50.000 And this may be a way of overlaying PTSD. Rather than having the reference standard that's associated with PTSD, you supplant it with a positive experience.
02:05:59.000 But the people who had negative experiences during tripping did not have a negative – that negative consequences did not extend more than the experience itself.
02:06:07.000 So this was a profound insight.
02:06:09.000 And so John Hopkins, Roland Griffiths just emailed me recently.
02:06:14.000 They have other clinical studies that are ongoing, looking at one which just got published on meditators, giving placebos versus getting high doses of psilocybin, and then measuring the consequences of those experiences months or a year or two later.
02:06:33.000 And again, the same thing is reinforced.
02:06:35.000 These psilocybin mushroom experiences create a positive reference point that you can capitalize on by re-remembering them subsequent from this experience by not even having to take the mushrooms again.
02:06:49.000 That is profound.
02:06:51.000 When you have a happy memory that you can anchor your personality on, it's a game changer.
02:06:58.000 I just...
02:07:00.000 I wonder if we're ever going to see in our lifetime centers where you can go and a trained professional can guide you through something like this.
02:07:08.000 It's happening now.
02:07:09.000 Is it?
02:07:10.000 Yes.
02:07:10.000 The California Institute of Integrative Studies based in San Francisco is training therapists.
02:07:17.000 In Canada, there are therapists.
02:07:18.000 In Europe, there are therapists.
02:07:20.000 There are training programs now in psychedelic therapy.
02:07:23.000 This is something that has a tremendous momentum.
02:07:27.000 Indigenous peoples have a really nice structure.
02:07:30.000 Many of them do, not all.
02:07:32.000 But many have a really good structure for the responsible use of these substances.
02:07:36.000 Us that are displaced peoples, and I would call us European-based people and many other people displaced, we don't have the same constructs historically that we can operate within.
02:07:47.000 And so the psychedelic therapist movement is huge right now.
02:07:52.000 Canada is leading the way.
02:07:53.000 The Canadian government is very, very positive towards psychedelic therapy because of the opioid crisis and because of significant results.
02:08:03.000 As in the movie, this has come out called Dosed, and it tracks a heroin addict, a young lady in Vancouver.
02:08:11.000 It is a heroic movie.
02:08:13.000 It is not one of these, you kind of feel good at the end of the movie, but it is intense.
02:08:20.000 And she's doing iboga, and she also does high doses of mushrooms.
02:08:24.000 But the opioid crisis is so pervasive, there's so poor treatments available, that through these psychedelic therapies, in several days, they're seeing a tremendous impact.
02:08:38.000 Success and people breaking, you know, decades-long opioid addiction within a week.
02:08:43.000 And so the psychedelic therapists are integral to that success.
02:08:47.000 And so there are clinics now arising all over the world for this.
02:08:52.000 In Portugal, in Mexico, in Spain, in Jamaica, the clinics are arising specifically to meet the needs of people who are trying to get these legally so they don't get in trouble with the law.
02:09:04.000 So in Portugal, in Spain, in Jamaica, For instance, these are legal.
02:09:07.000 Many of these substances are.
02:09:09.000 Well, what gives me a lot of hope is that everything seems to be trending in a positive direction, like all these things that you're saying, your own personal experiences from TED from 2008 versus 2019, all these different treatment patterns or pathways that are available now to people that were never before,
02:09:25.000 and that we're starting to see an acceptance overall, just the general population.
02:09:30.000 People understand what this is and that this might literally be the cure to what ails us.
02:09:37.000 For people out there who have not gone on a deep psilocybin experience, this is very important for me to emphasize and after you do a heroic journey of psilocybin, The next day,
02:09:53.000 when you look at those mushrooms, you say, no way, dude, I'm not touching those for a long time.
02:09:59.000 Give me six months, I'll come back to them.
02:10:00.000 They're anti-addictive by their nature.
02:10:03.000 Because it's so powerful.
02:10:05.000 So powerful and profound, and you've gone through the gauntlet and You're not ready to do it again.
02:10:10.000 And so how many drugs can have such a dramatic impact that are non-addictive, that can break addictive cycles with other drugs?
02:10:18.000 I think this is a gateway opportunity for solving many of the ills of our society.
02:10:24.000 I couldn't agree more.
02:10:26.000 Anything else before we get out of here?
02:10:29.000 No, I just want to thank you and your audience for having the courage to bring these subjects to the table in a coherent fashion.
02:10:38.000 We don't have all the answers.
02:10:40.000 We will make mistakes.
02:10:41.000 I think it's really important that we take where the adults in the room We see somebody spinning off the rails.
02:10:48.000 Rather than being judgmental, go up and put your arm around them, saying, hey, there's better benefits from this.
02:10:54.000 I fully understand why people want to party with them, especially when they're younger and they're going to the coming of age.
02:11:00.000 But as you mature, these are really important for your own sanity and for the health of your community and your family.
02:11:09.000 Psilocybin mushrooms make nicer people.
02:11:12.000 I think that's a great way to say it, and I agree, and I think it should be on a t-shirt, maybe a bumper sticker.
02:11:19.000 And I want to thank you, man.
02:11:20.000 Without your knowledge and information and the way you're able to so eloquently express all these ideas, a lot of people would know a whole lot less.
02:11:29.000 So thank you.
02:11:30.000 Well, it's a team effort.
02:11:31.000 It's just not me.
02:11:32.000 It's an uprising.
02:11:34.000 It's a mycelial underground.
02:11:36.000 That's reaching up and telling people and sharing it with their friends.
02:11:39.000 So check out the movie Fantastic Fungi.
02:11:42.000 It's really good and dosed.
02:11:44.000 Two good movies that speak to this.
02:11:46.000 And your website once again?
02:11:47.000 Fungi.com.
02:11:49.000 Paul Stamets, ladies and gentlemen.
02:11:50.000 Thank you, Paul.
02:11:51.000 All right.
02:11:51.000 Thank you, brother.
02:11:52.000 Thank you.
02:11:54.000 Bye!