In this episode, James and Chris debate whether or not the Gladiators in Game Changers are vegan. James argues that the film is based on cherry-picking, while Chris argues that there is no evidence to suggest that the gladiators were in fact vegan. They also discuss the role of evidence in the film, and how it can be used to make a case for or against the premise of the film. In this episode of the podcast, James is joined by Chris, who is the producer of the new documentary, "Game Changers". This is the fourth time Chris has appeared on the show, and it's his fourth appearance on The Late Show with Stephen Colbert, which is a show that James has been a long time supporter of. This episode was recorded on October 6th, 2019. If you haven't watched the film yet, be sure to do so before listening to this episode. We hope that you enjoy it and that you find it entertaining, informative, and entertaining. Thank you so much for listening and supporting the show. Cheers, James, Chris, Stephen, and Caitie. XOXO. - Caitie and James Music: "Goodbye Outer Space" by Zapsplat - "Space Junk" by Jeff Kaale and "Outer Space Blues" by Ian Dorsch (feat. The Good Fight" by Fountains of Calidor & "Good Morning America" by The Good Morning Folks "Good Luck" by Suneaters (featuring the Good Fight Crew , "The Good Fight Team by The Badass Crew and The Good Life Project of the Good Morning Goodbye, Good Luck is released on November 15th, 2020, 2019, we hope you enjoy this episode! We are looking forward to seeing you all in 2020! - The Good Luck Project, Caitie Goodspeed and Good Luck! (Good Luck, Goodbye! ) Thank You, Jon & Good Luck, Jonathon Come Back, Jon, Jonothan, Jonothans, Kristian, James, Chris, Sarah, and Sarah, - Sarah, Rachel, and Katie, Michael, and Kacie, , Chris Thanks for listening to the podcast! Jonathon, Jake, and Christian
00:00:43.000The beginning of the show, the beginning of your film, you talked about the gladiators and all that stuff and the fact that you were shocked to find out that they had eaten a vegetarian diet.
00:01:03.000People were judging the film before they'd seen it, right?
00:01:06.000And the vegan sort of community really pushed it like, hey, look at this documentary.
00:01:10.000So there's been things saying they claimed that the gladiators were vegan, right?
00:01:14.000And if we can just prove they think the whole film is based on this premise.
00:01:18.000That was just like an inciting incident for me to start digging into it.
00:01:20.000First of all, Fabian Kant said they were predominantly vegetarian, and I said they ate mostly plants, and that is what I couldn't believe, right?
00:01:28.000So we didn't claim that they were vegan, didn't even claim that they were vegetarian, they were just fueled mostly by plants.
00:01:33.000You know, and people say, oh, you cherry-picked one location.
00:01:35.000It was the only known gladiator burial site in the world based on archaeological and anthropological data at the time.
00:02:07.000I would consider myself someone who is adept at reading the literature and learning from experts in nutrition, medicine, anthropology, etc.
00:02:20.000Although I do have master's level training in nutrition.
00:04:26.000If I want to learn about comedy or, you know, fight announcers, I might come and talk to you, right?
00:04:30.000If I want to learn about acupuncture or understand chi more, I might come to Chris because you've got a master's degree in traditional oriental medicine.
00:04:39.000You're a licensed acupuncturist, right?
00:04:40.000So if I want to learn about that, Chris is someone that I might want to go to.
00:04:44.000So what I'm saying is the World Health Organization, the FAO, the American Heart Association, the 2015-2020 Dietary Guidelines, are all suggesting to eat predominantly plant-based diets, right?
00:04:57.000And they're saying that vegetarian and vegan diets are helpful for all life stages, including for pregnancy, childbirth, breastfeeding, adolescents, athletes, and so on.
00:05:44.000That's really, really unfair because last time you pointed out that the totality of coverage of the plate is not reflective of the calories.
00:06:09.000Because the main question here, in my mind, is whether there is evidence that supports Being on a 100% plant-based diet with no animal products versus a diet that includes a lot of plant foods and some animal foods.
00:06:25.000I thought you were critiquing the film which was talking about plant-based diets.
00:06:29.000So plant-based diets means getting the vast majority of your calories from plants and limiting or excluding animal foods.
00:06:35.000But the film, essentially, was all about only eating plants.
00:07:12.000So, the playbook that was used by the smoking industry, so they pay for studies, right?
00:07:19.000And we know, even with food, this has been done with cigarettes, it's been done with drugs, it's been done with food, research shows that industry-funded studies are four to eight times more likely I've seen this in articles Saying,
00:08:03.000There are some specific claims that chicken eating chicken and fish causes cancer, eating dairy causes cancer, there are quotes from doctors, vegan doctors in the film.
00:08:14.000Can we just finish the evaluating evidence and then get to each point?
00:08:16.000Because I'm happy to do every critique.
00:08:18.000So, basically, the consensus, and you're saying they're changing over time, they are changing, because as we get better at science, the recommendations are becoming more plant-based, despite industry influence from studies and marketing and people being paid off.
00:09:43.000No, we can disagree about that, but I'm almost finished with the evaluating evidence.
00:09:48.000So basically, what we did when we interviewed the experts is we chose leading experts in their individual fields, collectively with thousands of articles in the peer-reviewed literature, right?
00:10:00.000And this is one of the bummers about making a documentary.
00:10:03.000You put the lower third on, people don't get to read it.
00:10:05.000So we had the Chair of Nutrition at Harvard, the President of the American College of Cardiology, the Lead Delegate of Urology for the American Medical Association, the Chair of Anthropology at Harvard, the Director of Energy, Environment and Resources at Chatham House, really respected...
00:10:18.000Talking about vegan doctors, I saw some of them involved in hunting, some of them involved in animal testing.
00:10:25.000I saw one of them eating a chicken sandwich at lunch.
00:10:28.000So let's not say that this was a vegan bias coming into it, because that's just not true.
00:10:52.000That they've released new studies, releasing these new studies saying that there's no longer this concern that red meat causes cancer, or that even...
00:11:02.000It's also an appeal to an authority, because I can find many illustrious doctors and experts who are highly qualified that will disagree with your point of view that a diet must be 100% plant-based in order to be healthy.
00:11:33.000You think that they're promoting it knowing that it's bad just for profit?
00:11:36.000Okay, so all Chris has to do to debunk the film is convince the people watching and listening that he knows more about the consensus and the experts in their field I would understand if this is what you talked about.
00:11:49.000I'm actually not that interested in consensus of experts.
00:11:52.000I'm looking at the research that is published, the peer-reviewed research that is published, including meta-analyses and even reviews of meta-analyses that have been done.
00:12:01.000A perfect example is the whole dairy and cancer section that we talked about, where you had...
00:12:06.000Walter Willett argued that dairy products cause cancer, and I pointed to a meta-analysis that looked at over 150 different reviews, and 84% of those found no association.
00:12:19.000So how is that not part of this discussion where we're talking about hundreds of scientists across different continents, different countries that are using peer-reviewed science to show this?
00:12:54.000Yeah, and we can get a lot further into it, because that's not the only one.
00:12:59.000I'd love to, because at 9 o'clock last night, until 9 o'clock last night, I thought Chris just made a bunch of mistakes interpreting the data, and I'm going to show you how he is misleading people on this study, okay?
00:13:10.000So, if you can bring up slide 107, Jamie?
00:14:26.000Out of 153 reported meta-analyses comparing highest versus lower dairy consumption, 109, 71%, showed no evidence of a statistically significant association between dairy consumption and incidence of cancers.
00:14:38.00020 showed a decreased risk of cancers with dairy consumption, and 24 showed an increased risk of cancers with dairy consumption.
00:14:46.000Now this is actually, until last night at like 9 o'clock, I realized what he was doing.
00:15:17.000Okay, so can I just say, the reason you brought this up is because Walter Willett said there was a strong connection between prostate cancer and dairy, correct?
00:18:14.000Are you proposing that we throw out every study?
00:18:17.000Because one of the main studies in your film was sponsored by the Haas Avocado Board, the one that claims that animal products contribute to inflammation.
00:18:51.000Actually, we can look at some statistics on that.
00:18:55.000I don't know who's spending more money.
00:18:58.000Would you disagree that industry-funded research has a four to eight times increased risk compared to non-industry-funded research in finding collusions in their favor?
00:19:08.000I think industry research is definitely a problem, but I see it as a problem across the board, and I have some statistics we can talk about.
00:19:16.000Do you not admit that you here led the audience to believe That there was a potentially decreased risk overall.
00:19:23.000You made it sound very high because you didn't split between the no difference.
00:21:36.000You're claiming that all of them are industry-funded, and we should throw out this huge review of 153 meta-analyses because of industry funding?
00:22:36.000In that sense, I do agree with you about the cigarette thing.
00:22:38.000How many of the 153 meta-analyses, which each also had individual studies in them, are so biased by industry funding that we can't count on the findings?
00:22:50.000Well, I would hope that you would know more than I. We can't get very far in this discussion if you're going to claim that we can't even talk about studies in the peer-reviewed literature because industry funding completely biases the findings.
00:23:33.000If you have a hypothesis, this thing causes cancer, and then you do a ton of studies and there's no association, that hypothesis is no longer correct.
00:25:02.000If you had 100 studies, and 70 of those studies showed an increased risk of cancer, wouldn't you say that thing causes cancer, most likely?
00:25:10.000Well, if it was all epidemiology, then it's a question.
00:25:23.000So if you've got 70 studies that couldn't show a correlation, and 30% that did, that is still in favor of showing that there is a correlation.
00:25:36.00070% of the people in these studies, if you have all these studies, you have 100 studies, and 70% of the people in all these studies are showing an increased risk of cancer.
00:25:58.000Or 84%, which is because you add in the decreased risk.
00:26:02.000We're not even adding the decreased risk, which shows that you're less likely to get cancer, which is almost the same as an increased risk of cancer, which in my eyes is a wash.
00:26:10.000You would assume that we're talking about something that doesn't give you cancer.
00:26:14.000Well, I agree that this study found that they couldn't prove a causation, right?
00:26:19.000They couldn't prove a link between cancer and...
00:26:21.000But you made it out like he was being deceptive.
00:26:38.000If you want to look at it in its entirety, the evidence shows that most of the 71% showed no evidence of it causing cancer.
00:26:46.00013% showed it's actually better for you.
00:26:49.000You have less risk of cancer than not eating dairy.
00:26:53.000And then 16% showed increased risk of cancer.
00:26:56.000And again, when you're talking about epidemiology studies, when you're talking about, you know, 16 out of 100, you have to throw in all the other factors in these people's lives.
00:27:33.000Sorry, 112. Whether they consume milk or not.
00:27:37.000So, in this meta-analysis that you point to, the highest connection that they could find between dairy and any type of cancer was prostate cancer.
00:27:44.000So, if you look at the black line, that shows no association.
00:27:47.000If you look at the green line, that's decreased association, and the red line was increased association.
00:27:52.000That was the meta-analysis that you provided.
00:27:55.000So you brought this study up because Dr. Walter Willett, who is the chair of nutrition at Harvard, he's one of the most published nutrition scientists of all time, if not the most published.
00:28:32.000It's a fallacy unless it's the appeal to valid authority.
00:28:37.000Because literally, if I want to know about, are you saying like, so if I want, let's say we look at mixed martial arts, and Chris goes, well, I've never done mixed martial arts, but I think I know more about anthropology, nutrition, like, I know more about boxing, kickboxing, jiu-jitsu, and wrestling.
00:28:54.000We're talking about leading experts in their field with thousands of peer-reviewed There is no consensus.
00:28:59.000There are experts who are very illustrious who would disagree and would look at this study and reach the same exact conclusion that I did.
00:29:08.000There's no reliable proven connection between dairy and prostate.
00:29:15.000You have half studies showing an association, half studies showing no association, not to mention the fact that that's, as you just said, that even if there was A strong correlation.
00:29:42.000The question was still, you know, there are a lot of inferences made in the film Whether they were intentional or not on your part, that dairy, people are hearing, oh, dairy is going to cause prostate cancer.
00:29:58.000They're going to extend that to cancer.
00:30:00.000There are other claims in the film made about dairy and metabolic issues and saturated fat and metabolic issues.
00:30:07.000So, the operative question that I'm trying to answer is, do the data support that?
00:30:12.000Not does Walter Willett think that, or any other expert in the film, do the data support that conclusion?
00:30:18.000And even in that study, The data don't strongly support that.
00:30:24.000If you have half studies saying yes, half studies saying no, that's not a clear signal, and it's definitely not evidence of a causal relationship.
00:30:31.000So having Walter Willett or anyone say there's a strong relationship and we know the mechanism and it's causal, that happens.
00:30:58.000Because this is actually To your point.
00:31:00.000So two out of three people have an intolerance towards dairy in the world.
00:31:04.000And if you're talking about a study that shows 50% of the people in these studies that are consuming dairy, there's a correlation between prostate cancer and dairy.
00:31:15.000Wouldn't you assume that maybe the same thing that we're talking about, where two-thirds of people are intolerant to something, they consume this thing that's intolerant, it causes inflammation in the body, and that inflammation in the body could possibly be leading to cancer?
00:31:32.000Dairy is inversely associated with inflammation.
00:31:36.000But if people are irritated by dairy, if they have an intolerance to dairy, and you said two-thirds of people.
00:31:47.000Here's what I would suspect there, that if we segmented those people out and said, let's do a study, find out who's intolerant of dairy and find out who isn't, you would see even better results for dairy.
00:31:59.000Because despite the fact that some people are lactose intolerant, we're still seeing in that meta-analysis that there's no association in most cases and an inverse association in other cases.
00:32:15.000But this prostate cancer thing is not most.
00:33:20.000That's why when you see that kind of thing in the data, it's a red flag.
00:33:26.000Because there's no logical explanation for why it would cause prostate cancer but no other cancers.
00:33:32.000Can you start to think about why is there more of an association there with that?
00:33:37.000Jamie, just Google dairy products and inflammation review of the clinical evidence.
00:33:42.000This is a systematic review of 52 clinical trials and they found that dairy products were inversely associated with inflammatory markers, which means that people who consume dairy actually had lower levels of inflammatory markers.
00:33:57.000So the hypothesis that dairy is inflammatory and that's why it's causing cancer doesn't seem to hold up.
00:34:35.000No, there are many experts who would agree with me.
00:34:38.000You just didn't choose to interview them in the film.
00:34:40.000No, actually, we did interview some that I can tell you about in a second, on the other side, and I'll tell you why we didn't include them.
00:34:45.000But you're asking people, I would understand it if suddenly Chris has figured out this NutriVore diet, that he figures out something about nutrition, that he knows more about the consensus and more about the majority of leading experts, But to believe that Chris knows more about anthropology,
00:35:05.000Because you tried to debunk some of the anthropology in the film.
00:35:09.000And successfully, because the majority of anthropologists agree with what I said.
00:35:14.000You chose probably one of the few that would agree with the idea that humans primarily ate exclusively plant-based diet for most of human evolution.
00:35:32.000You'd be hard-pressed to find a consensus group of experts that agree with that idea.
00:35:38.000So you're saying that Richard Rang, the chair of anthropology that we interviewed, does not represent the scientific consensus of anthropology?
00:35:45.000If you're arguing that he is saying that humans primarily ate plant-based diet and animal products were not a significant part of our diet through evolution, then yes, that's what I'm saying.
00:36:24.000And animal products can also be part of that Nutrivore healthy omnivorous diet.
00:36:30.000And I think you would find a dominant consensus of nutrition experts that agree with that.
00:36:36.000But that's not the way this film is being interpreted.
00:36:39.000Right, because there was a bias going into it.
00:36:42.000So, for example, when you go to the US military, right, the Game Changers is the first documentary that has ever been accredited by the Defense Health Agency for the Department of Defense.
00:36:51.000It's the first documentary that has ever been supported by the Special Operations Medical Association.
00:36:56.000They didn't come into it looking at the science.
00:36:58.000This has been evaluated by hundreds of PhD researchers to come to that conclusion, okay?
00:37:11.000The Defense Health Agency of the Department of Defense, which decides what the military is eating, they don't give a crap about, oh, let's base our diets on evolution.
00:37:41.000Is this some published paper where it shows that hundreds of people have reviewed this film and found all the claims to be credible and that all the debunkings of it are not?
00:37:50.000The Defense Health Agency has reviewed this film In detail, digging into each of the studies...
00:37:56.000Right, but you're saying, again, called to authority, you're saying hundreds of PhDs have studied this.
00:38:02.000Well, there's a lot from the Defense Health Agency.
00:38:04.000There's a lot of people at the Special Operations and Medical Association that came to the decision, and these are master's degrees in nutrition, PhDs in nutrition, to get that accreditation.
00:38:35.000And we can fill the room with experts who agree with me.
00:38:39.000You had a debate with a doctor in the UK on a TV show who disagreed with you.
00:38:46.000We can always find people who agree and disagree with all kinds of different credentials.
00:38:53.000It's disingenuous to claim, like I said, that I'm not here to argue that plants are unhealthy and that we shouldn't be eating a lot of plants.
00:39:03.000This is the fallacy that gets created with these kinds of films.
00:39:07.000It's not a choice between a standard American crappy processed food diet that contains meat or a vegan diet.
00:39:15.000There is a possibility of a plant-based diet, a diet that has a lot of plants that also contains animal products, and comparing that with a 100% plant-based diet, that is the operative question here.
00:39:30.000I believe that meat and dairy are bad for you.
00:39:34.000The film talked about plant-based diet.
00:40:56.000Yogurt, fermented dairy products like kefir, no lactose.
00:41:00.000So while I agree with what you're saying, if someone is lactose intolerant, they should avoid dairy products that contain lactose.
00:41:07.000When you look at the studies on dairy and connections with conditions like cancer, inflammation, which I just pointed out with this study, And you look at cardiometabolic outcomes, which I'd like to cover because that includes heart disease and diabetes and overweight,
00:41:54.000So you can't say it's bad for you, and then I show epidemiological studies and RCTs, by the way, that were included in that meta-analysis that don't support that, and then you say, oh, we can't trust the research.
00:42:06.000I'm pointing out your hypocrisy is saying that you said that epidemiology, that's observational studies, just looking at people.
00:42:13.000You have said that we can't rely on those, and then you then cite them yourself.
00:42:19.000I didn't say we can't rely on epidemiology.
00:42:21.000I say you have to consider the caveats with epidemiology.
00:42:25.000But again, the burden of proof, if you're claiming that a food is bad for you, the burden of proof is on you to show research that it is.
00:42:33.000So for example, first of all, there's inflammatory mediators, for example, like heme iron.
00:42:43.000Second of all, we look at population data and we show increased causes of morbidity and mortality.
00:42:58.000Decreased risk of morbidity and mortality.
00:43:01.000Let's just be real clear on that because you said it wrong.
00:43:05.000Let's look at two randomized controlled trials.
00:43:07.000See, these are not observational studies.
00:43:10.000The first found that increasing red meat consumption by replacing carbohydrates in the diet of individuals without anemia actually reduced markers of inflammation.
00:43:26.000So, Jamie, if you want to pull this, I mean, these are all on the website, cressor.co slash gamechangers, but that study is called Increased Lean Red Meat Intake Does Not Elevate Markers of Oxidative Stress and Inflammation in Humans.
00:43:59.000And then there's another RCT in women with anemia inflammation markers on a diet high in red meat or not significantly different from those on a diet high in oily fish.
00:44:11.000And then there are also numerous studies of paleo diets which contain meat and other types of animal protein and show that they decrease markers of inflammation including CRP. There's randomized controlled trials showing reductions in interleukin-6 and also in tumor necrosis factor alpha.
00:44:31.000So all of this suggests it's not the meat, it's what you eat with the meat that makes the difference.
00:44:37.000We have studies of chlorophyll, eating chlorophyll-rich green vegetables decreases the formation of N-nitroso compounds with meat.
00:44:45.000We have lots of studies showing that when you eat plants along with the meat, then you don't see the effects that you might see if you're just eating...
00:44:59.000So if an animal food creates oxidative stress, you have it with the plant foods, and that would have the antioxidants, and that would offset it.
00:45:43.000It's just focusing on these individual elements and ignoring the overall pattern of diet quality, which is the most important thing.
00:45:50.000And that's what a lot of the more recent studies are showing.
00:45:53.000When you look at the diet pattern and diet quality on its...
00:45:58.000Overall, that's what actually makes a difference in terms of health and lifespan, not how much of this fat, how much of that fat, whether there's red meat or white meat or fish or whatever.
00:46:10.000Let me pause here because this is one of the primary misconceptions that people have about consuming meat.
00:46:15.000When they hear studies that say that meat is associated with mortality or high cholesterol or heart disease or all these different factors, We are talking about these kinds of studies where people fill out a form, tell us what you eat.
00:46:33.000What they don't take into account is whether or not these people are going to Wendy's, whether or not they're eating a grass fed steak and broccoli.
00:46:58.000No, I'm saying we should look at the diet quality, the overall diet pattern.
00:47:04.000So, for example, Christopher Gardner did a study at Stanford a couple years ago, and he took, instead of saying, you know, low-fat, low-carb, he took two groups and he advised them all to basically eat a healthy diet.
00:47:19.000And then one group ate a low-fat, healthy diet, and the other group ate a low-carb, healthy diet.
00:47:28.000So first of all, in terms of health, my opinion would be I'm pretty much macronutrient agnostic.
00:47:35.000So I'm not advocating high-carb or low-carb.
00:47:39.000I think that people can do healthy and well.
00:47:40.000I think for athletes, they need a lot more carbs, which, of course, is getting those from plants.
00:47:43.000I think there are certain athletes that can, if it's a slow and steady state where you're getting more fat oxidation, I think that, you know, stone steady state athletes can do, but like an MMA fighter, a soccer player, a basketball player, more carbs.
00:48:17.000But the thing is, Chris doesn't have the consensus definitions of carbohydrate levels.
00:48:22.000You've made up your own definitions, right?
00:48:24.000When did I make up my own definitions?
00:48:26.000Slide 80. Jamie, if you could do that, please.
00:48:31.000Let's just point out that Zach Bitter, the man who I had on the podcast yesterday, who holds the world record in running 100 miles in 11 hours, and I think it's 18 minutes, he's on a low-carbohydrate diet.
00:48:43.000Yeah, and again, in a slow and steady state, you can certainly do well.
00:48:48.000So, Chris, your definition of low-carb is 10 to 15%.
00:48:53.000If you can go to the next slide, Jamie, 81%.
00:48:57.000So if you look at the peer-reviewed literature, it's either less than 30% or, in the next slide, Jamie, less than 40%.
00:49:02.000Like, if you look across all the literature, it's less than 30% or 40%.
00:49:05.000Moderate carb, according to Chris, next slide, Jamie, would be 15% to 30%.
00:49:10.000Peer-reviewed literature, next slide, 40% to 65%.
00:49:15.000And then high carb, Chris calls, more than 30%.
00:49:18.000And the peer-reviewed literature, high carb, more than 65%.
00:49:22.000And the next slide, more than 70%, depending on the peer-reviewed literature.
00:49:25.000So, you've come up with your own definitions of what is low, moderate, and high carb.
00:49:29.000Yeah, just for the purpose of my work with people.
00:49:34.000I wasn't trying to represent research there.
00:50:41.000That's absolute madness to come up with your own definitions.
00:50:44.000And this is what I feel that Chris does.
00:50:45.000And when you have people like Chris on multiple times, it throws people's perception off as what is a healthy diet because Chris misrepresents the data.
00:50:53.000He comes up with his own definitions of things.
00:50:55.000He misrepresents things that we said in the film.
00:51:02.000We're going to get into the woods here.
00:51:03.000Let's just talk about this real quick.
00:51:04.000So when we're talking about low carb, moderate carb, or high carb, when you're recommending to your patients low carb, moderate carb, or high carb, these definitions, how are you coming to these conclusions?
00:52:00.000You will not be in ketosis at 30% carbohydrate, or 25%, or 20%, or even 15%.
00:52:09.000It's going to be 7%, probably less than 10%.
00:52:14.000And then 40% to 65%, You're not even in the ballpark.
00:52:26.000So if you're thinking about using low carbohydrate diets, for example, for weight loss or for diabetes or metabolic issues like Virta Health is doing, then low carb is not going to be 30% to 40%.
00:52:42.000So that's where my recommendations are coming from.
00:52:45.000Your recommendation is based on ketosis?
00:52:47.000Based on the optimal range, if you look at the rest of the article, it's going to be like, if you've got diabetes, you're overweight, you're obese, you're trying to lose weight, this is the range that I've found and other experts like the people at Virta Health have found will be most effective.
00:53:13.000So you're calling it low-carb because if someone's on a ketogenic, low-carb diet, in order to get into ketosis, you have to have a low number of carbohydrates.
00:53:21.000It's actually probably even below 10%.
00:53:23.000And not even just to be in ketosis, like just to get the maximal weight loss.
00:53:29.000You know, someone could be at 15% and still get great weight loss without being in ketosis.
00:53:33.000I've got to interrupt because just like in the last five minutes, you showed a study from trying to prove your own point That low-carb and low-fat people had equivalent fat loss.
00:54:14.000And when you do that, people, no matter what, low carb or high carb, lose weight.
00:54:18.000But I think you will agree, as well as almost anybody would, that getting on a low carbohydrate diet and forcing your body into ketosis makes your body burn fat.
00:55:53.000In the FAANG meta-analysis, which looks at most of the studies that have been done on that, and then if you also consider that when you add...
00:56:03.000Green vegetables and other plant foods, spices, and all of that, it reduces the oxidative capacity of heme iron and reduces the absorption of heme iron.
00:56:14.000And, you know, again, we're talking about diet pattern, not just are you eating red meat in McDonald's and fast food restaurants, but are you eating it in the context of an overall healthy diet, and does that have the same effect?
00:57:02.000First of all, he said that what he put up on the screen, I don't know if you've still got the slide, but you said that the heme-iron association was only in Americans, right?
00:57:11.000But the conclusion of that study said that heme-iron was associated with cardiovascular disease.
00:57:18.000That was the conclusion of the study which he didn't put up on the screen.
00:57:22.000The quote I put up was, with respect to heme iron intake, we found a significant association only in the studies that were based on American cohorts.
00:57:49.000Higher dietary intake of heme iron is associated with an increased risk of cardiovascular disease, whereas no association was found between cardiovascular disease and non-heme iron intake or total iron intake.
00:58:03.000And then I just read the quote just now.
00:58:13.000So if you look at this forest plot, for example, this Kipstein-Grohbush, And you can go and look at the, I've looked at the individual studies that they were referencing in the meta-analysis, as has my scientific team.
00:58:24.000So basically you see this, this is a 1.86.
00:58:30.000With the composite interval being 1.14 to 3.09.
00:58:35.000That is statistically significant connection between heme and iron.
00:58:38.000And you can look at the conclusions in three of the photos.
00:58:41.000But you're saying that what he said about eating it with green leafy vegetables reduces the oxidation effects?
00:59:19.000I think you read the study, but you admitted that you don't know how to read forest plots.
00:59:24.000And the forest plots, if you did look at them and you knew how to read them, you'd show that there were three in the Netherlands and in Sweden that did show a significant correlation.
00:59:33.000Because what you were trying to make out with this point, which I understand when you have a point of view and you're trying to work it backwards, what you end up doing is you try and find studies that suit your position.
01:00:35.000And we still have the studies that eating fruits and vegetables attenuate the oxidative capacity from heme iron, reduce absorption of iron in the gut.
01:00:44.000And now we're focusing on a single mechanism rather than looking at the outcomes.
01:00:52.000I think that plant foods offset the oxidation, offset in some regard the oxidation that you get from animal foods.
01:01:00.000However, if you work out You have oxidative stress, okay?
01:01:05.000So if you want to have a meal, do you want the plant foods in the meal to be dealing with the oxidative stress from the animal foods, or do you want the plants to deal with the oxidative stress, allow you to recover faster, and your next workout will be better?
01:02:19.000So my position is that the literature...
01:02:22.000I think it's an easier argument because we're talking about plant-based diets and plant-based diets would be either limiting or eliminating animal products, right?
01:02:33.000So for plant-based diets in general, right?
01:02:36.000So vegan, maybe some vegetarian, like if you eat turkey on Thanksgiving and then you eat fish once a month, I would say that's a plant-based diet.
01:02:43.000You're getting the vast majority of your calories from plants, right?
01:02:46.000I think most people, even if you're eating pasta, you're getting the vast majority of your calories from plants.
01:02:53.000Well, yeah, but if we're talking about what's the healthiest diet...
01:03:43.000I think there's things in meat that it's very difficult to get in plants.
01:03:47.000And I think the quality of the amino acids and the quality of the protein content in meat is superior to that in plants.
01:03:53.000Definitely we should get into the protein.
01:03:54.000Let's talk about that because that's one of the things you brought up.
01:03:56.000Can I just say that I agree with the type of meat that you eat.
01:03:59.000We know that there's not studies done on the inflammation in elk, but there is studies on inflammation in kangaroos, for example, in Australia.
01:05:16.000You get pro-oxidation from animal foods.
01:05:19.000You also get pro-oxidation from exercise.
01:05:23.000We're talking about, you know, isolated mechanisms instead of outcomes.
01:05:28.000But Chris, you talk about mechanisms when you want to, and you talk about preclinical data when you want to.
01:05:33.000I was talking about them in response to the claims made in the film, because mechanisms were mentioned.
01:05:39.000New 5GC, TMAO, heme iron, and so I brought those up to respond to them.
01:05:44.000No, but that's not when you use them, because if you go on your website, you actually...
01:05:47.000I'm not saying we shouldn't ever talk about mechanisms, James.
01:05:50.000I'm saying if you're talking about mechanisms but the outcomes don't support The mechanism, then what's the point?
01:05:59.000Well, I think we can get into epidemiology and look at that, but I think we should definitely hit protein, because I think if everyone watching, that's the biggest myth, and it's the biggest sort of gripe, and I think we should definitely hit B12. Let's go with B12, because one of the things that you said that he disputed was, bring up that B12 quote that you said was complete horseshit.
01:06:27.000It's made by bacteria that these animals consume in the soil and water.
01:06:30.000Just like with protein, animals are only the middlemen.
01:06:33.000Before industrial farming, Farm animals and humans could get B12 by eating traces of dirt on plant foods or by drinking water from rivers or streams.
01:06:42.000But now, because pesticides, antibiotics and chlorine kill the bacteria that produce this vitamin, even farm animals have to be given B12 supplements.
01:06:50.000And you said, that's just all false, that's all just factually wrong.
01:06:55.000So, first of all, B12 is made by bacteria, but animals don't get it from consuming soil and water.
01:07:01.000First of all, you misrepresented what I said.
01:07:04.000So I said, it's made by bacteria that these animals consume.
01:07:08.000You went on to say, That animals didn't get bacteria from the soil.
01:07:21.000The key claims you made, James, is that it used to be possible to get B12 by eating dirt on plant foods or from drinking water from rivers or streams.
01:07:31.000I still have not seen convincing evidence that that is true.
01:07:35.000And Jack Norris, a vegan dietician, has admitted as much in his article.
01:07:41.000And then even more relevant than all of that is looking at B12 deficiency rates between vegans, vegetarians, and omnivores in the clinical literature.
01:08:29.000And down at the bottom, there's the quote for the poultry, right?
01:08:33.000So would you disagree that pigs and chickens and other farms...
01:08:37.000No, I don't disagree that they sometimes get B12, but what about shellfish?
01:08:45.000Shellfish are extremely high in B12. They're the highest, even higher than… That's a total non sequitur and it's a strong algorithm.
01:08:52.000It's not actually because the implication in the film was the only reason you get B12 from eating animal products is because they're given B12 supplements.
01:09:00.000Are you really suggesting that the population gets most of its B12 from shellfish?
01:09:21.000Where do you think chickens get their B12 from?
01:09:23.000The point about the shellfish was, I never claimed chicken was a great source of B12. I said in the film, even farm animals have to be given B12. You said that it was absolutely false.
01:09:35.000Everything that I said about B12, you said was absolutely false.
01:09:38.000Well, this is also you talking about that people used to be able to get it from consuming vegetables with bacteria and dirt on it.
01:09:43.000And that the water is now because of pesticides and chlorine, the water no longer has B12 in it.
01:09:49.000And then you claim that the same percentage of, you picked one study that showed equal rates of deficiency and ignored the huge amount of literature that shows big differences between vegans, vegetarians, and omnivores in terms of B12 deficiency.
01:10:06.000I know all of your critiques because I've noted them and I've got a point for each one.
01:11:11.000There's something that's added to feed on the left.
01:11:13.000So, it says a liquid complementary feeding stuff containing the essential trace elements cobalt, selenium, For the treatment of B12 deficiencies, that's due to some soils being low in cobalt.
01:11:27.000So now, if you just go to slide 47. This is the largest supplier of animal feed or supplements in the world.
01:11:43.000Young ruminants require supplemental vitamin B12 prior to full rumen development.
01:11:48.000They also say vitamin treatments sometimes administer parenterally to incoming feedlot cattle.
01:11:56.000And also B12, by the way, has been shown to increase milk production.
01:11:58.000You said there was no evidence that cattle are given B12 and you said that all my statements were absolutely false.
01:12:06.000Do you at least admit that you were wrong there?
01:12:10.000If I said that cattle, specifically that one portion of the statement, that there's no evidence that cattle ever get B12 supplements, then I was wrong about that.
01:12:23.000Okay, first of all, when I made the full statement, this is what you first said, that's just all false, that's all just factually wrong, and then later on you said...
01:12:32.000There's also zero evidence that B12 is fed to cattle.
01:12:35.000That is flat out wrong, and I have just shown that.
01:14:20.000The vegetables were eaten without being carefully washed, thus strict vegetarians who do not practice hand washing or vegetable cleaning may be untroubled by vitamin B12 of deficiency.
01:14:31.000And by the way, the retained vitamin D12 for soil was adequate to prevent B12 deficiency.
01:14:36.000So what you're essentially saying is that we're dealing with B12 that was in soil and then in water and that by the chlorination and filtration systems that we use today, that's what's ruining the water and the water does not have the B12 in it anymore.
01:14:51.000We sanitize water now, which is a good thing.
01:14:53.000Yes, but that also takes out the B12. So that makes your statement correct.
01:14:59.000That's not the consensus view, that you can get enough B12 from eating unwashed vegetables.
01:15:05.000He didn't necessarily say that was the consensus view.
01:15:08.000What he said in the statement was that the reason why we no longer have B12 in the water and in the soil is because of the fact that they add chlorines and pesticides, and it seems like there's evidence to back that up.
01:15:18.000So again, people have questioned, did I spend a thousand hours?
01:15:23.000Now that I'm giving you the facts, Do you question that I spent a thousand hours and I've spent another two thousand hours looking at peer-reviewed research since then?
01:15:31.000If you say you have, I have no reason to disbelieve.
01:15:44.000I think there's people a lot smarter than me that are making these scientific tests.
01:15:47.000But I mean, that amount of hours of research.
01:15:50.000I've estimated that I've done, conservative estimate, I've done since then about 3,000 hours because once I started making the film and doing that, then I didn't.
01:15:58.000There are also B12 analogs in the soil that aren't absorbed and utilized like true B12. Can we admit the two things that you touched on so far, you got wrong.
01:16:11.000Absolutely that it's proven that cattle do receive B12 under whatever circumstances.
01:16:18.000I don't know whether it's because they're grass-fed or grain-fed.
01:16:20.000I'm assuming they're feedlot animals that don't get proper nutrients from soil, don't get proper nutrients.
01:16:26.000I mean, if you're getting these grain-fed, soybean-fed cattle and they're just pouring this dried-out shit into a bucket, these animals are not grazing and they're likely deficient in a lot of different things.
01:17:07.000You're not just supplementing by B12, you're supplementing D. You're getting it from someone who supplements it in the feed of the animal, and then you get it that way.
01:17:16.000Generally, not if you're eating grass-fed beef, not if you're eating shellfish, not if you're eating fish.
01:18:00.000Again, he's misrepresenting and he's wrong, Joe.
01:18:03.000You've got to admit that in this case.
01:18:05.000Well, he's clearly wrong about B12 being given to cattle.
01:18:08.000I mean, we showed three different supplements.
01:18:11.000So it says, before industrial farming, farm animals and humans could get B12 by eating traces of dirt on plant foods or by drinking water from rivers or streams.
01:18:20.000So you don't think that people will get the idea from hearing that?
01:18:23.000That we never needed to consume animal products to get B12. We didn't need to consume.
01:18:48.000He's going off on a track here because he's got two things wrong.
01:18:50.000I agree with you on this, because his statement is essentially saying that the reason why we don't get it today is because of chlorination and fluoridation of water.
01:19:00.000So your third point, I said this, you took issue with my claim.
01:19:04.000And up to 39% of people tested, including meat eaters, are low in B12. As a result, the best way for humans to get enough B12, whether they eat animal foods or not, is simply take a supplement.
01:19:14.000Then you said he didn't provide a reference for that, so it's hard to check.
01:19:18.000But again, it contradicts, you know, mounds of evidence on B12 efficiency.
01:19:22.000So, can you bring up slide 50, please, Jamie?
01:19:25.000You said that I didn't provide a reference, okay?
01:19:29.000But in the bottom left, where we put all of the references, and whenever I made a claim about the scientific research...
01:20:08.000You rounded up to 40, but I kept it at 39, okay, because I was being specific.
01:20:14.000B12 deficiency is far more common than most healthcare practitioners and the general public realize.
01:20:19.000Data from the Tufts University Framingham Offspring Study suggests that 40% of people between the ages of 26 and 83 have plasma B12 levels in the low normal range, a range at which many experience neurological symptoms.
01:20:34.000That was the opening statement of your B12 ebook, and you claimed that you couldn't find the evidence of that study.
01:20:43.000No disagreement that B12 deficiency is an issue.
01:22:03.000Well, in California, acupuncturists have a four-year master's program, which includes a lot of medical sciences and nutrition research methodology, etc., because we're considered primary care providers in the state of California.
01:22:17.000So the training is a lot different than it is in other places.
01:24:13.000We've got all of these studies about homocysteine, 9 out of 10 reviews that have shown higher homocysteine levels in vegans and vegetarians.
01:24:20.000Joe, can we stick to the point that he made last time?
01:24:44.000Oddly, the researchers found no association between plasma B12 levels and meat, poultry, and fish intake, even though those foods supply the bulk of B12 in the diet.
01:24:52.000It's not because people aren't eating enough meat to get their B12, Tucker said, it's the vitamin isn't getting absorbed.
01:25:48.000They're saying the vitamin's not getting absorbed and that B12... My point was it's safer to just take a B12 supplement.
01:25:55.000And for the general population in the world, that is the best recommendation.
01:25:59.000You'll say you can go to your doctors and get a $60 blood test and test for B12, and then you can decide whether you need a supplement or not.
01:26:50.000But then you've got studies that show 11% of omnivores have B12 depletion versus 77% of vegetarians and 92% of vegans.
01:27:00.000You know, that's with using holotranscobalamin, which is a much more sensitive marker of B12 deficiency than serum B12, which is really problematic.
01:27:08.000And then you have 9 out of 10 comparisons of homocysteine that found higher levels of homocysteine in vegetarians and omnivores and higher levels in vegans compared to vegetarians.
01:27:21.000And homocysteine is also a more sensitive marker than serum B12. So there's four stages of B12 deficiency.
01:27:27.000And serum B12 will only go down out of range in the fourth and final stage of B12 deficiency.
01:27:34.000So these other studies that I shared on the last show are looking at holotranscobalamin, which was the most sensitive marker of B12 depletion.
01:27:43.000It's not technically deficiency at that point.
01:27:46.000And then you have homocysteine and methylmalonic acid that are less sensitive than holotranscobalamin, but more sensitive than serum B12. Okay.
01:27:56.000Okay, can you bring up slide 54, please?
01:29:48.000Okay, but let's look at some other studies.
01:29:50.000So slide 56. And again, I'm only choosing a few.
01:29:54.000I'm sure, you know, certainly they're in my favor.
01:29:56.000And I'm not saying that vegans don't have lower B12 levels, because some people don't supplement, right?
01:30:01.000But I'm showing that you hand-picked a study from 16 years ago.
01:30:05.000Slide 56. This is a new study from 2018 with twice the sample size of the ones.
01:30:12.000People now know you should take a B12 supplement.
01:30:15.000The studied markers indicate a generally sufficient cobalamin status independently of the diet preferences, lacto-over-vegetarian or vegan.
01:30:22.000Slide 57. Now this is a study that looked at runners in May of 2019, really current.
01:30:31.000And it feels like you might not have the most current data because you said to me in your email that nutrition is only one part of what you do and you have lots of other things that you're doing, right?
01:30:41.000So, slide 57. This is comparing vegans, vegetarians, and omnivores.
01:32:46.000It's lower, but it's not super rare because a lot of soil is deficient in cobalt.
01:32:51.000And cows need to consume the cobalt to manufacture the B12 in their rumen.
01:32:56.000So it's more of a side effect of mineral and nutrient deficient soils for cows.
01:33:01.000But not for pigs and chickens and that sort of stuff.
01:33:05.000Vegans have higher homocysteine levels than omnivores, 9 out of 10 comparisons found.
01:33:10.000Higher homocysteine levels in vegetarians than omnivores and higher levels in vegans than vegetarians.
01:33:16.000The prevalence of hyperhomocystinemia among vegetarians may actually be higher than that among non-vegetarians already diagnosed with heart disease.
01:33:35.000And like you said before, we shouldn't just look at the markers, we should look at the outcomes, right?
01:33:41.000And the outcomes is that vegans and vegetarians with higher homocysteine levels do not have increased risk of cardiovascular disease or diabetes or death from those or from cancer.
01:33:52.000I didn't make the claim that they do from that study.
01:33:56.000We're talking about B12 and homocysteine being a marker of B12 deficiency.
01:34:00.000And Chris, I am showing that you picked a study from 2016, which had a very small sample size.
01:34:05.000That was 9 out of 10 comparisons right there.
01:34:08.000That was not the only study that I showed.
01:34:12.000I am saying that when you came to B12, all of the statements that I made in the film were true, and you said that they were patently false and you were wrong.
01:34:34.000He made misrepresentations of our claims and he got things factually wrong.
01:34:38.000Well, he certainly seems to have gotten it factually wrong that animals, particularly cows, are not given B12 supplements.
01:34:44.000He certainly seems to have gotten it factually wrong that at least some of the B12 that people would be able to get in the past, they got from water and soil.
01:34:53.000And that 40% of people are in Division B12, and that the best way to get B12 is the supplement.
01:35:36.000It's whether or not they absorb the information and when they study.
01:35:39.000If you said you studied a thousand hours before the film and three thousand since, then you're obviously educated.
01:35:45.000You understand what you're talking about.
01:35:47.000So anyway, you got things factually wrong about B12. So to the people listening or watching, do you really want to put the interpretation of the data in the hands of someone that just got so many things wrong about B12? Well, he got things wrong about your assertions about B12. Yeah,
01:36:03.000I made four or five claims that still stand that vegetarians and vegans have much higher rates of B12 depletion or deficiency than omnivores.
01:36:13.000If they're supplementing, they do not.
01:36:16.000If they're supplementing, they don't, but if they don't supplement, they do.
01:36:18.000Right, but everyone agrees, but there's no disagreement.
01:36:21.000Vegans and vegetarians, and anyone over 50, and you're now disputing the safest way to get B12 is to take a supplement.
01:36:28.000It's the best way to get B12. It's the surest way to get B12, but it's not necessary for many people.
01:36:33.000Right, for people that can afford to get blood tests, which is not most of the world.
01:36:37.000We're sitting in America in a nice air-conditioned room, and we've got cars, and we drove here, and we can afford to go to the doctor.
01:36:45.000Like, the best way to get B12 is to take a supplement.
01:37:36.000I feel like I should just donate to the world.
01:37:38.000If it's only two bucks a year, I feel like I can hook a lot of people up.
01:37:41.000I've also shown that in the study that you presented in your e-book, stated that they weren't absorbing it as well from animal products.
01:37:48.000I'm not saying there's not B12 in animal products.
01:37:50.000And also, we have to remember one last thing, that the B12 that people are getting in animal products, it was supplemented in the first place.
01:38:34.000Yeah, they're carnivorous little monsters.
01:38:37.000Then chickens, and when you get them, and you get those eggs, and the eggs are like a really dull yellow, those are animals that are eating grain only.
01:40:48.000And it's the same thing where he'll sort of try and show that fish, you know, the TMAO, for example, you'll say, well, how can TMAO be bad?
01:41:36.000Yeah, there's not, yeah, I mean, we both agree, like, let's just create a false dichotomy, Chris.
01:41:41.000If there was a, like, all animal products diet, not just carnivore, but eggs and all this stuff, and then there was a fully plant-based diet, subliminary would be 12. Which one would you advocate?
01:42:15.000All he's ever said was that eliminating all animal products from your diet is probably not healthy unless you follow a very strict routine where you make sure that you have all your bases covered nutritionally.
01:42:29.000That's what Chris has said from the jump.
01:42:31.000I would extend that and just say that I don't think there's strong evidence suggesting that including some animal products in your whole foods plant-based diet is harmful.
01:42:42.000That's where we seem to have an issue.
01:42:44.000And I even said that the range of that can vary tremendously.
01:42:47.000It could be 5% for someone who's just eating...
01:42:52.000Mostly plant-based diet and they're eating some shellfish and organ meats for the nutrient density.
01:42:57.000Or you could have someone who eats more animal products.
01:43:00.000It depends on the person and what their needs are.
01:43:02.000I go with that first half and the second half.
01:43:04.000But just to back up what Joe does, slide 62. Because I mentioned this earlier, but we didn't put a slide on.
01:43:12.000But I think the graphic, again, I know most people are listening.
01:43:14.000So maybe Joe, you could describe it to people.
01:43:16.000Differences in postprandial inflammatory responses to a modern versus traditional meat meal.
01:43:22.000So this is basically, this is the kangaroo.
01:43:37.000So I just want to point out that, yeah, if you're going to eat 90% plants and you're going to eat the rest of it from animal products, I think that wild-caught elk and kangaroo meat, stuff like that, would be the way to go, by far.
01:45:48.000Eating like pasta and pizza and bullshit.
01:45:51.000But just to be fair though, even in vegans and vegetarians in all of the studies, They're still getting more fiber, despite the fact that you and I would agree they're not eating the healthiest diet.
01:46:00.000Overall, completely plant-based people are the only people that fall within the recommended BMI range, the people that get the most fiber.
01:46:21.000I agree, generally, that if you look at people who are on a vegetarian or vegan diet compared with people on the standard American diet, then they're going to have healthier...
01:46:33.000Right, but that's the standard American diet.
01:46:35.000If you take someone who's eating healthy plates of broccoli and kale and also has a piece of grass-fed meat, that's what I want to talk about.
01:46:43.000I want to talk about people following their conscious diet.
01:47:03.000They were told to reduce their amount of or cut out completely processed plant foods, like white flour and sugar and all this type of stuff.
01:47:10.000They were told to increase their fruits and vegetables, and they were told to increase their meat consumption.
01:47:15.000And they got improved health markers all across the board.
01:47:19.000Now, what was interesting is, at the end of the two years, what they found was that people had not stuck with the meat recommendations.
01:47:25.000So they kept their meat recommendations the same.
01:47:27.000They got out processed junk food, right, and trans fats and stuff that you'd all agree...
01:49:19.000You shouldn't just listen to me, but I don't think it's genuine to suggest that there's a consensus that a whole food plant-based diet is a better choice than a plant-based diet that also contains some animal products.
01:49:34.000I agree with you that we have no studies on that, and we probably won't, unfortunately, in the near future, because...
01:49:43.000Right, especially for long-term outcomes, right?
01:49:44.000Because you can't put people on for 40 years.
01:49:47.000So I agree that it's hard, like, again, I've said before that we should be getting the vast majority of our calories from whole plant foods.
01:49:54.000I think there's enough in the literature to show, and the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics recognizes that completely vegan diets are helpful for all the life stages, including for athletes.
01:50:02.000I think that there's sufficient evidence to go 100%, but I'm not telling people that they should be doing that.
01:50:06.000I'm saying people can eat whatever they want, but I think we both agree that people should be getting out junk food, right?
01:50:14.000Oh, by the way, on trans fats, So that's why I asked you in the beginning of the show what your position was, because that's the fundamental question for me, is this question that we're talking about right now, which is,
01:50:29.000is there sufficient evidence to suggest that everybody, most people, whatever you want to say, should be on 100% or even 95% plant-based diet versus a plant-based diet that contains some animal products?
01:50:45.000And my argument all along has been, no, there's not sufficient evidence to claim that.
01:50:49.000Right, but you also think that a completely plant-based diet is likely to be nutrient deficient and all these other things.
01:52:00.000The reason that you need to try to debunk the film is because you've got a massive business selling supplements and protein powders and giving diet advice.
01:53:09.000The reason that I'm here is because, and the reason that I came when Joe invited me, and he can probably tell you that it took a few invitations to get me here, is just to provide the other side of the view here.
01:53:27.000It's not because Because it materially affects me in any way.
01:53:31.000Believe me, I've got lots of other things, as I told you in the email, that I'm focusing on.
01:53:34.000Yes, you do lots of other things, not on nutrition.
01:53:36.000So even like my nutrition team, they spend full time either consulting elite athletes or military personnel, or they're digging into the research.
01:53:44.000Like our chief science advisor, eight hours a day, all he does is dig into the latest research.
01:53:49.000So you come onto Joe's podcast, and people are supposed to believe that you are the best person to...
01:53:55.000Because you say it's about the meta-analysis, and you say it's about the totality of evidence.
01:54:46.000Okay, so, can I just, just so I understand your position, and I'm sorry for getting worked up, like, I feel like I'm like an attorney trying to interrogate you, but I feel like I spent a lot of time digging into research.
01:54:56.000I had the research checked and checked and checked again.
01:54:58.000I had the research checked to make sure that it was not cherry-picking, that it was reflective of the preponderance of evidence.
01:55:14.000Because all of the experts in the film are people who are clearly aligned with that perspective.
01:55:20.000I interview them because they're aligned with the consensus.
01:55:22.000And no, and over half of the people in the film...
01:55:25.000I thought you just agreed that there is not a consensus that a 100% plant-based diet is better than a diet that includes a lot of plants and some animal products.
01:55:35.000So where were the experts that would represent that point of view?
01:55:41.000It doesn't have to be 100% plant-based diet.
01:56:33.000That's disingenuous to claim that all of the research that I've shared here is industry-funded and so we can't acknowledge it.
01:56:40.000But your claim that, like, the recent study that just came out, and we're getting off track, but the recent study that just came out that said that red meat and processed meat is totally fine, like, you really want to go with that?
01:56:51.000Like, to me it feels like you don't have your finger on the pulse, honestly.
01:57:05.000So in the Annals of Internal Medicine, the day before the film came out, six studies exonerating red meat and processed meat, all from the same company that are apparently giving recommendations.
01:57:18.000Exponent and Nutri-Rex and companies like that are not the ones that give public recommendations on what people should be eating, number one.
01:57:30.000If you look at their recommendations, first of all, Frank Hu, who is now the chair of Nutrition at Harvard, he took Walt Willett's place, said the panel's blanket recommendations that adults should continue their red meat consumption habits is highly irresponsible.
01:57:45.000Walter Willett said it's the most egregious abuse of data he's ever seen.
01:57:48.000And if you want to follow their recommendations, if you could put up slide 92. So they did the same thing in 2017 for the sugar industry.
01:57:59.000So, there was a meta-analysis in the annals of internal...
01:58:02.000When you say they, you mean the exact same company?
01:58:04.000So, Bradley Johnston is the director and co-founder of Nutrex and the first author of the paper that we're talking about for Red Meat.
01:58:13.000They're just exonerated red meat, apparently, and processed meat.
01:58:16.000So this is the same company says, at present, there seems to be no reliable evidence indicating that any of the recommended daily caloric thresholds for sugar intake are strongly associated with negative health effects.
01:58:27.000So they did a meta-analysis saying that don't worry about your intake of sugar at all.
01:58:34.000That was what their meta-analysis conclusion it came to.
01:58:36.000And then two years later, the day before the film came out, and do you really think that's a coincidence?
01:58:44.000Of our email subscribers, do you know the email address of the person that opens and views our emails the most?
01:58:53.000It's from the Beef Checkoff program, and they've been doing that since we started.
01:58:56.000So they sign up for our mailing list, they look at when the film is coming out, And you think it's a coincidence that the day before the film comes out, they release a paper exonerating red meat and cancer.
01:59:08.000So if you're going to buy into the Nutri-Rex study about red meat and cancer, then to be fair, you've also got to buy into their conclusions about sugar.
01:59:45.000It would be a problem if that was the only...
01:59:48.000You claimed this recent study, and I honestly, again, no disrespect, you're busy with lots of other things, you run a successful business, consulting people, selling stuff.
02:00:13.000Really respected scientists that have come out saying that this Nutirex study, and by the way, there's an investigation into the Annals of Internal Medicine because of this, for accepting this stuff from Nutirex.
02:00:22.000But if you're going to accept the meta-analysis on red meat and on processed meat for cancer, then you've also got to accept the 2017 study meta-analysis.
02:01:00.000And going back to that dairy one, by the way, do you know that when they did their meta-analysis, they doubled and tripled and quadrupled up?
02:01:08.000Because when the meta-analysis that analyzed the meta-analyses, the multiple meta-analyses, included...
02:01:44.000And so what you do is, if you want to make beef look better...
02:01:46.000If you want to make saturated fat look okay...
02:01:49.000Or if you want to make cholesterol okay, you can switch things around in the study to make it look good.
02:01:54.000If you want to look at eggs, and for example, and I don't want to get, like, it could turn into a three-hour debate about cholesterol and saturated fat, but if you go from 10 eggs a week to 12 eggs a week, it doesn't raise your serum cholesterol.
02:02:37.000It was the playbook that is used by the drug industry, by the meat industry, by the sugar industry, by the dairy industry.
02:02:45.000So even though your film came out and these studies came out right before your film, it's kind of proving your point that this same company that tried to exonerate the sugar industry is also...
02:02:55.000Yeah, if you're going to accept that, if you're going to cite that as evidence...
02:02:57.000If you're going to cite that company...
02:02:59.000The reason I think, because like you said, you're so busy on many other things, is I just don't think that your fingers on the pulse...
02:03:05.000That was not the only study that I said.
02:03:46.000Can I just finish the last point and then I'll let you show as many studies as you want?
02:03:50.000Because again, you can show as many studies as you want, you can't prove that you're not handpicking them to suit your bias.
02:03:55.000You are the one that quoted this study.
02:03:58.000It shows that your finger's not on the pulse because hundreds of top scientists have written letters, or joined in the same letter, to the Alzheimer's internal medicine asking for those studies to be retracted.
02:04:10.000And there's now an investigation into the annals of internal medicine, yet you are citing that study.
02:04:15.000An investigation doesn't prove, nothing has been proven yet, and I was aware of that controversy.
02:04:21.000But you can't even read forest plots, but you're telling people what to eat.
02:04:27.000If red meat has been demonized for as long as it has been, and then a study comes out which exonerates it, it would be entirely expected that there would be controversy.
02:04:37.000And do you know who that study was funded by?
02:04:52.000Scientists who discredited meat guidelines didn't report past food industry ties.
02:05:02.000The lead researcher, Bradley C. Johnston, said he was not required to report his past relationship with a powerful industry trade group.
02:05:10.000I don't know what that trade group is, but if you scroll down...
02:05:15.000I can tell you, in the first one, the sugar one, it was that Pepsi and all this stuff, although they make a non-profit with a fancy sounding name, and then they back it all with industry funding.
02:05:51.000To present that study as evidence, when the consensus of the scientific researchers is against that study, that is calling for an investigation, that has asked for it to be retracted, the co-author of the paper, who's part of the leadership team at NutraRex,
02:06:07.000he's the Vance Chancellor of Dean in Agriculture and Life Sciences at Texas A&M. Texas A&M is partnered with the Beef Checkoff Program.
02:06:16.000And this is also discussed in the New York Times, slide 94. And there's actually, it goes a lot deeper than that.
02:06:25.000It actually goes back to Brazilian government.
02:06:28.000Let's see, slide 94. Slide 94 is just talking about...
02:06:31.000Research group that discounted risks of red meat has ties to program partly backed by beef industry.
02:06:39.000So this doesn't necessarily mean what they're saying is incorrect.
02:06:42.000And this is where it gets slippery, right?
02:06:43.000Because if they found things that happen to be correct, and they release it, but they release it from a shitty company that has said things in the past.
02:06:51.000It's a shitty company that chose, and it handpicked which studies it included in meta-analysis.
02:06:56.000Because you've had plenty of time to explain this.
02:07:00.000To get to your point, Chris, you agree with the conclusion of that study, and you think that the evidence points that there's many studies that point to the idea that red meat is not, in fact, the culprit.
02:07:14.000And the culprit is when you're looking at these epidemiology studies, that you're looking at the overall diet of these people and asking them, do they eat meat?
02:07:21.000You're not asking them, what is the quality of the food they eat?
02:07:24.000Yeah, so I agree that conflicts of interest are a problem.
02:07:29.000And the editorial that was published in Annals alongside of this study said, this is sure to be controversial, but it's based on the most comprehensive review of the evidence to date.
02:07:42.000Because that review is inclusive, those who seek to dispute it will be hard-pressed to find appropriate evidence.
02:07:49.000The meta-analyses had studies covering millions of participants over 34 years.
02:07:57.000There are several other meta-analyses that have been done over the past few years, so I don't know the best way to show these because I've got them in a Google Doc.
02:08:10.000So 2017, let's see if I can give you the title, Jamie, maybe you can Google it or something.
02:08:20.000Contemporary Review of the Relationship Between Red Meat Consumption and Cardiovascular Risk.
02:08:27.000Quote from that study, the review concluded, quote, recent findings demonstrated that despite the presence of heme iron and carnitine, Red meat does not significantly increase cardiovascular risk when it is assumed in recommended doses.
02:08:43.000You have 2014 meta-analysis of 13 studies.
02:08:49.000Again, this one, Jamie, is called association between Total processed red and white meat consumption all cause cardiovascular disease,
02:09:12.000And this is a good example of what you were just saying, Joe.
02:09:18.000There was a slight increased association between red meat consumption and cardiovascular mortality And then at the end, no significant associations is observed between any type of meat and heart disease mortality.
02:09:37.000Results of the present meta-analysis indicate that processed meat consumption could increase mortality.
02:09:42.000These results should be interpreted with caution due to the high heterogeneity observed in most of the analyses as well as the possibility of residual confounding, meaning healthy user bias.
02:09:55.000Lippi, in a meta-analysis of 11 studies of red meat consumption and heart disease, concluded that, quote, the current literature data does not support the existence of a clear relationship between a large intake of red meat and increased risk of myocardial ischemia.
02:10:11.000And then this is one of the largest that was done.
02:10:15.000Let me give you the title of this, Jamie.
02:10:18.000Red and processed meat consumption and risk of incident coronary heart disease.
02:10:28.000Consumption of processed meat but not red meat is associated with higher incidence of heart disease and diabetes.
02:10:38.000So there's a bunch of meta-analyses that have been done over the years that reached the same conclusion, and we could look at the same, this is for heart disease, but there are also some for cancer.
02:11:32.000And you claim that we cherry-picked in the film, right?
02:11:34.000But you hand-picked studies to back up your bias.
02:11:36.000Not to mention that we've pointed out that the studies in those meta-analyses, some of them are heavily funded by industry, not saying that you should throw all those out, but you don't have the wherewithal to assess the studies in the meta-analysis because you pointed out yourself that you can't even read a forest plot.
02:11:54.000He reads conclusions in writing, but has not looked at the actual data.
02:12:00.000So, you haven't been able to establish.
02:12:02.000When I spent the first thousand hours, I would look at the whole paper, and then I would look at each author, and I would dig into each author to see where their funding was from.
02:12:13.000And I'm telling you that the industry is funding studies.
02:13:33.000I've never claimed that there aren't studies correlating red meat with poor health outcomes.
02:13:38.000I never have claimed that and I've said those studies are highly problematic for all of the reasons that I've talked about on the last show and on previous shows.
02:13:51.000Problems with data collection, food frequency questionnaires, relative versus absolute risk, confounding like, you know, not looking at physical activity, and the biggest confounder of all, not looking at diet quality.
02:14:07.000I'd love to go to diet quality because I know you like to use Matt Lalonde's work, which has never been published, which obviously was built in What?
02:14:15.000I have not used Matt Lalonde's work in connection with diet quality.
02:14:18.000I'm talking about food patterns, like healthy food pattern, eating healthy...
02:14:22.000In terms of nutrient density, which is a part of diet quality, you have referred to Matt Lalonde's work.
02:14:34.000I'm still talking about the research on red meat being problematic because it doesn't consider the overall diet pattern.
02:14:46.000First of all, you don't have the wherewithal to interpret the scientific evidence, which is very clear that you don't understand forest plots.
02:14:54.000You recognize that you have to look at the totality of evidence, and you have to be able to dig in and look at where the things are pointing.
02:15:00.000You yourself said, I am not an expert in nutrition.
02:15:03.000And you said, and again, I'm not either, which is I don't even know why we're sitting here having this discussion, honestly.
02:16:28.000What do you think the scientific consensus, Chris, what do you think the scientific consensus is when it comes to dietary recommendations?
02:16:37.000Well, it's changed a little bit in the past few years.
02:16:39.000It definitely was low fat, although that is changing a little bit.
02:16:43.000There's some recognition of different fats, may have different effects, etc.
02:16:48.000It would be limiting red meat, would be limiting saturated fat, limiting cholesterol, eating a lot of plants and whole foods, limiting sugar,
02:17:12.000That's based on, you know, mostly observational research and then some mechanistic studies and some RCTs.
02:17:21.000But even RCTs, if you're comparing, again, like some of the studies that are cited, for example, in David Goldman's papers, they're comparing a standard American diet with a plant-based diet.
02:17:36.000So in a crossover trial, randomized trial, that's not comparing apples to apples.
02:17:42.000But anyways, to get back to your question, I would say about half of what I recommend is consistent if we use the factors that I just said, eating whole foods and...
02:17:55.000Not eating processed and refined foods, limiting sugar, all of that.
02:17:59.000The areas where I differ are red meat, saturated fat, but not always.
02:18:05.000I think that's individual and depends on how people actually respond to saturated fats, and eggs, and total fat content, depending on the person.
02:18:21.000I think they can be part of a healthy diet if they're well tolerated.
02:18:25.000And you do think that the research has shown a whole food plant-based diet versus standard American diet, people are getting improvements on that?
02:18:43.000But I've never argued that grains and legumes are...
02:18:48.000I'm not a strict paleo kind of advocate.
02:18:53.000And you pointed out last time, I think it was Rhonda Patrick that talked about it too, because obviously I watch your podcast, and you pointed out about these hormetic stressors that we talked about earlier, and so these people that are talking about anti-nutrients in food, they really don't know what they're talking about.
02:19:49.000You basically need a certain amount of vegetables in your diet.
02:19:53.000You need vitamins, whether you can get those vitamins from supplements like B12 supplements or whether you can get it from the actual food that you eat.
02:20:01.000There's certain dietary requirements that I think we're all in agreement on.
02:20:05.000I think where we disagree on is whether or not red meat is bad for you and what kind of red meat we're talking about and why is it bad and what Is it bad when it sits alone,
02:20:20.000or is it bad when you're eating it with vegetables, which is what we're recommending in the first place?
02:20:25.000So if we're recommending that you eat it with vegetables, and these vegetables do have this sort of balancing effect of the negative aspects or the perceived negative aspects, even though there's no evidence that those negative aspects, when eaten by itself, because we don't really have long-term studies on carnivore diet people.
02:20:43.000I think mostly we're in agreement here.
02:20:46.000You're defending your film, and rightly so.
02:20:50.000I mean, I think there was a bunch of claims that were untrue.
02:20:52.000Well, clearly you've proven with the B12 issue that he said some things that made you look like you were saying things that were inaccurate and uninformed.
02:21:01.000And he's done that with a bunch of other things too, though.
02:21:09.000Okay, so can you just bring up slide one?
02:21:10.000And I mentioned this earlier, but I didn't show it.
02:21:16.000So the World Health Organization recommends that people eat a nutritious diet based on a variety of foods originating mainly from plants rather than animals, which you said you could agree with, right?
02:21:25.000Because it's like not vegan necessarily, like mainly from plants.
02:21:29.000Yeah, I mean the proportions are a question mark there.
02:21:33.000And then the, actually slide three would be the FAO, the Appropriately planned vegetarian including vegan diets.
02:21:49.000Appropriately planned vegetarian including vegan diets are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits for the prevention and treatment of certain diseases.
02:22:10.000These diets are appropriate for all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, adolescence, older adulthood, and for athletes.
02:22:19.000So these women that you hear that are getting arrested because their babies are malnourished because they're following a vegan diet...
02:22:26.000Appropriately planned is the key phrase.
02:23:27.000The Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics, the American Heart Association, and the 2015 and 2020 Dietary Guidelines for Americans recommend appropriately planned vegetarian diets for improved health.
02:23:42.000That's a statement by Frank, who is the current chair of nutrition at Harvard looking at plant-based diets and cardiovascular health.
02:23:49.000And then slide two is the FAO. Sorry, I got the slides in the wrong order.
02:23:52.000This is the FAO. I don't know what messed up with the...
02:23:57.000Anyway, households should select predominantly plant-based diets rich in a variety of vegetables and fruits, pulses and legumes, which again, a lot of people on the paleo diet would say is useless, and minimally processed starchy staple foods, The evidence that such diets will prevent or delay a significant proportion of non-communicable chronic diseases is consistent.
02:24:15.000So all I'm pointing out here is that you're not in line with the consensus of science and that you don't have the ability to read the papers.
02:24:25.000I'm in line with pretty much everything that has been shown just then.
02:24:31.000There's only one of the paragraphs that you mentioned even mentioned animal products and it didn't recommend excluding them entirely.
02:24:41.000So you would point out that one, you agree that predominantly plant-based is the way to go and that as long as you plan it appropriately, vegan diets can be healthful.
02:25:32.000Because we're really here to defend his critiques of the film.
02:25:35.000Because, you know, honestly, I've got people that watch the film Changed their diet, started feeling better, watched this podcast where he debunked the film and then called me a lot, you know, like write me a message on Instagram saying you are full of shit.
02:25:52.000But anyway, I'm just saying like, it's a shame that you have someone that doesn't really have the capability to really understand the literature coming on here and people buying into it, talking smack on the film where he made a bunch of factually wrong comments.
02:27:22.000What it is, is if you don't know what you're doing...
02:27:25.000And you've been eating in a certain way for 30 years, and you suddenly take your meat off the plate, and you only eat what was left on the plate, you're going to have a problem.
02:28:51.000But basically what I had said, and I can't remember the exact words that I said, but I pretty much do, because I recorded it a number of times.
02:28:59.000So, one cup of cooked lentils or a peanut butter sandwich has about as much protein as three ounces of beef or three large eggs.
02:30:09.000Oh, and by the way, I'd listened to your 30-minute podcast, trying to take down the film, which came out before you came on Joe's podcast.
02:30:17.000And you said that you, and you sort of backed this up, I don't know, this happened like from one article and it got spread and spread and spread, that someone said, you need five tablespoons of peanut butter to get the same amount of protein.
02:30:34.000In what world does someone, and you changed your tune a little bit when you came on the podcast, but when I make a peanut butter sandwich, I use bread, two pieces of bread.
02:30:42.000How many, like, you would use two pieces of bread and peanut butter sandwich?
02:32:00.000And I almost bought a peanut butter sandwich in here today to show you what two tablespoons of peanut butter looks like, or two and a half.
02:32:06.000Because the one I had, I looked at it, and it was surprising.
02:32:09.000When you actually measure a real tablespoon, it's actually not that much peanut butter.
02:32:12.000So mine, I figured out, has about two and a half tablespoons and two pieces of bread.
02:32:41.000Carbohydrates from whole food sources are associated with better lean body mass, lower body fat percentage, and everything else.
02:32:46.000But anyway, so I don't understand your math.
02:32:49.000What I think you did is you took that article, because articles that spread from that article forgot to put the bit in parentheses without the two pieces of bread.
02:32:56.000So you take five tablespoons of peanut butter, At 4 grams a piece, that's 20 grams, right?
02:36:10.000I mean, 18 is not 24. No, no, no, I'm getting to the beef.
02:36:14.000I'm saying, so far what I have presented, just the two tablespoons of peanut butter, and it came to 18. I was really conservative, right?
02:36:22.000I could have put more peanut butter, I could have had bread that had more, like the one, I don't want to name the brand, but it's like six grams.
02:36:27.000But you'd admit that you can get bread that's got six grams of protein.
02:39:47.000Grass-fed beef in the first instance, slide 17...
02:39:56.000275 calories, and that was on the one that wasn't so lean, and 70% lean beef, and I'm just pointing out there's different ranges, 417 calories for 18 grams of protein, right?
02:40:10.000So fatty meat, which you don't think fat, like the animal fat is bad, right?
02:41:48.000So this is from your site, 18 grams of protein, 410 calories.
02:41:51.000The funny thing is, I typed in recipes, and I think this was either first or second came up.
02:41:56.000All I do is pick the first two high-protein recipes from your site, because I didn't pick the soup or the salad because I thought it would be unfair, so I picked the first couple.
02:42:03.000So sweet potato and leek omelette, the protein coming from eggs, 18 grams of protein, 410 calories.
02:42:09.000Do you have an issue with your own meal?
02:42:18.000Like I said, that wasn't central to my point.
02:42:21.000The point is, it's harder to get the same quantity and quality, the DS score.
02:42:30.000We'll get to the DS score in a minute, and I will show that you were wrong again.
02:42:34.000So, taro and bacon hash, slide 21. 18 grams of protein, 570 calories.
02:42:40.000If you want to go to your breakfast of champions, which I thought, you know, for athletes, slide 22. And by the way, I took your data.
02:42:47.000I didn't take USDA. I assumed that you were not lying.
02:42:50.000So I took the totals from the bottom, but I standardized it for 18 grams of protein because we're just comparing everything percentage-wise.
02:43:22.000So that would mean to make up for the rest of the day, you would have to have meals that were like almost just protein, or maybe they'd have to buy the protein powder from your website.
02:43:32.000Anyway, so let's move on to now the, and by the way, slide 23, largest study I've ever done comparing completely plant-based eaters with, like, study showing plant eaters versus meat eaters.
02:44:48.000His recommendations, though, what he does is he pushes them to a really high end that isn't consensus, then trying to make it out that it'd be harder to get, which we've already shown you can get enough protein.
02:44:58.000Of course, an athlete eats more calories, therefore they get more protein as a percentage.
02:45:02.000So I just wanted to show two positions on this, and then we can see if you, again, you don't agree with the consensus of science.
02:45:09.000So this is the joint position paper of the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics, the Dietitians of Canada, and the American College of Sports Medicine.
02:45:23.000Current data suggests that dietary protein intake necessary to support metabolic adaptation, repair, remodeling, and for protein turnover generally ranges from 1.2 to 2.0 grams or kilograms per day.
02:45:40.000Okay, and then the next slide, Jamie, if you could bring up slide 25. I agree with that and have it in my notes.
02:47:55.000On the upper end, the 2.2 grams per...
02:47:58.000Per kilogram of body weight per day is one gram per pound of body weight.
02:48:03.000So no doubt, and this is what you're talking about, certain athletes like bodybuilders, strength athletes, but the competency of all means to apply to everybody.
02:48:10.000Some people could actually build, and this is about optimally building muscle as fast as possible, and some people could do it at one gram, some people might 2.2, but like regularly it looked like 1.6, 1.8, like the scientific consensus of that, and you said that you agree with these ranges.
02:48:24.000Yeah, and there's some evidence suggesting that higher amounts may be beneficial.
02:48:28.000So if you go to, or Jamie, if you search for examine.com, how much protein do you need?
02:48:37.000There's an article there, and examine.com is a, do you know about them?
02:48:52.000Indicator Amino Acid Oxidation Method, which is newer.
02:48:57.000If you scroll down, Jamie, to the optimal daily protein intake for athletes and similarly active adults, or if you just click on that...
02:49:08.000You see in that paragraph, IAO studies and athletes found different numbers because four of the 49 studies in the meta-analysis that had that lower range were conducted in people with resistance training experience.
02:50:37.000One, it's when you're in a caloric deficit.
02:50:38.000Because of gluconeogenesis, you pull some of the protein and you use some of the energy, so there's less protein, less for building.
02:50:44.000So if you're a bodybuilder cutting for competition, trying to get down to like 4 or 5%, then your protein requirements go up above that normal range because you're in caloric deficit.
02:50:59.000Yeah, and they probably adapt some, because like in normal people, you can actually only, during exercise, you can only get 10% of your energy from the oxidation of protein into glucose.
02:52:01.000I just started, the last couple of months, I started shaving it with the...
02:52:04.000How much protein can the body use in a single meal for muscle building?
02:52:08.000Implications for daily protein distribution showed upward of C1 of 2.2 grams per kilograms a day in cohort of young male bodybuilders.
02:52:18.000Although the method of assessment indicator amino acid oxidation technique used in this study has not received universal acceptance for determining optimal protein requirements.
02:52:30.000I'm not trying to point out that your IAO is off.
02:52:33.000I'm saying if you want to take your IAO, the indicator amino acid oxidation index, if you want to use that, then the upper confidence level is still 2.2.
02:52:42.000So the scientific consensus, I just want to make it very clear, that you threw out a bunch of these numbers on high protein, making out that vegans couldn't hit that level.
02:52:50.000First of all, I've shown that foods can get that.
02:52:53.000I've shown that vegans can get sufficient protein.
02:52:55.000And I've shown the scientific consensus on the protein ranges for athletes are not in scientific consensus with these 3.3.
02:53:04.000But even if there were, there's no reason you couldn't get it on a plant-based diet.
02:53:06.000I didn't argue that everyone should be eating 3.3 grams per kilogram.
02:53:09.000No, but you did argue that vegans couldn't get enough protein, and you were wrong.
02:53:15.000I didn't say they couldn't get enough.
02:53:16.000I said that it's less likely that they will get enough.
02:53:34.000No, it was a sweet potato and leek omelette.
02:53:36.000It was a taro and bacon hash, and then it was breakfast of champions with milk, yogurt, and eggs.
02:53:40.000So, all I'm saying is, people that watched the last episode, where he was bashing the film, people walked away thinking, you can't get enough protein.
02:53:49.000And then they thought, the quality's not good enough.
02:54:02.000I've just smashed the protein quantity argument, and now we'll get into the quality.
02:54:06.000We certainly smashed the protein quantity versus caloric intake.
02:54:12.000Right, and so it's fair to say, is it fair to say, that based on what I've presented, you can get about as much protein from the things that I said.
02:54:19.000Well, based on what you presented, you haven't lost an argument yet.
02:55:14.000But then I read the research, and I wasn't biased by, like, anything other than finding out the truth between the optimal diet for health and athletic performance and recovery of my injuries.
02:55:23.000And that is the truth, and that is what I have done.
02:55:25.000And now we're going to expose how you were incorrect about the protein quality.
02:55:31.000So you said, what's a little disingenuous about the film, they said every plant has every amino acid.
02:55:38.000Well, yeah, nobody disagrees with that.
02:55:40.000But it does have, does it have enough of each of them?
02:55:43.000Well, first of all, people do disagree with that.
02:55:45.000Like, if you want to search, you know, plants have missing amino acids, people think that it's missing some of the 9% amino acids.
02:55:52.000So that's why we put that in the film, okay?
02:55:54.000And we did, and I said, you left off part of my quote.
02:56:11.000You handpicked part of my quote to represent your view.
02:56:14.000So people, number one, do think that plants are completely...
02:56:18.000A lot of people think, just like, you know, there's articles saying, well, no one thinks that protein gives them energy.
02:56:23.000I've got five studies here, the only five studies that I could find, on the knowledge of collegiate athletes, and around 50% in each of the studies think that protein is what gives you energy.
02:56:33.000So people were saying, like, why did you put that in the film?
02:57:04.000So, the DIAAS takes into consideration amino acid profile and bioavailability, whereas the PCAAS did not take into consideration bioavailability.
02:57:17.000Right, it looks at crude protein, it looks at the total amount of protein absorption, not the individual amino acids, because different individual amino acids absorb differently, so that was one of the benefits of the DS scoring.
02:57:45.000That someone is talking about these systems that does not know how...
02:57:49.000Okay, so slide 27. And I'll tell you one of the benefits of the DIAS. And I think you might have mentioned this, so I think you might know more than you're letting on.
02:57:57.000So one of the benefits is the oro-ileal digestibility.
02:58:00.000So the PDCAAS, right, that took the whole digestive tract to what came out of the end.
02:58:33.000So basically, they put a pore in the pig.
02:58:36.000Now, PDC-AS was mostly in rats, and this is done in rats, and there's some in humans, but it's mostly done in pigs, because it's a more similar digestibility to humans.
02:58:46.000And they're basically assessing how much of that protein was absorbed, right?
02:58:50.000And how much of the amino acids were absorbed.
02:58:52.000Now, some people make the argument, even the FAO point out the flaws, some people make the argument, well, pigs have a different digestibility rate, which is true, and they have a different amino acid profile requirement.
02:59:10.000Even though it's tested in animals, primarily not in humans, they've got a different amino acid requirement and different digestibility capability.
02:59:31.000This is a quote from last time when you were trying to bash the film.
02:59:34.000It's all about protein quality, and this, as you said, is an established science, a firmly established science.
02:59:40.000He was talking to you, obviously, and you must have said it was established.
02:59:43.000They look at this, especially in, like, third-world countries where protein deficiency is common, so they try to figure out how to address this.
03:00:04.000I've got a slide if you want to prove, but it's basically defeating hunger, providing food security, not for America or for England, but for more than 130 countries where people are starving, malnutrition.
03:01:03.000The Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations has developed methods to evaluate the protein quality of food items, and in 2011, the Digestible Indispensable Amino Acid Score, D-I-A-A-S, was recommended as a successor to their previous method.
03:01:22.000Okay, so we're not in a disagreement right now.
03:01:24.000I'm even going to forego, like, I'm not going to argue about the animal having different amino acid requirements, even though that's, like, that's pretty funny, right?
03:01:32.000Anyway, so I'm not going to have that argument.
03:01:34.000What I'm going to have is I'm going to go with everything so far, FAO, they're endorsing it over the PDS, a lot of experts endorsing it over the DIAS, over the PDCAS. Okay.
03:01:43.000So now in slide 31, it's made for starving children, okay?
03:01:50.000So I would agree, if you're in a caloric deficit, and you're in a country where there's very little protein, and you're only getting 30 grams of protein a day, let's just say that the animal, like, take the animal stuff out of it, and, like, the way that the method is flawed, which the FAO points out.
03:02:08.000Because that's what it was designed for.
03:02:10.000As you can see, In looking at post-exercise skeletal muscle, the DIAS does not attempt to consider how scores translate into optimizing more downstream physiological targets of interest to a physically active person or athlete.
03:02:24.000So it wasn't designed for that system.
03:02:28.000It was designed for starving people in countries where they were not getting enough protein and they weren't getting enough protein, as you would call, high quality.
03:03:31.000Okay, but it's the best that it can kind of go of, but again, it looks at, and it's not just my opinion that it's not used for that.
03:03:37.000This is like, in sports medicine, 2019, and I agree, you're busy with other stuff, you probably haven't seen this article that came out in February.
03:03:52.000Now, in the 2018 Journal of International Sports Nutrition, slide 32, Society of Sports Nutrition, Because you like to say it's all about muscle protein synthesis, right?
03:04:22.000Do you disagree that like eating four or five times a day at 20 to 25 grams of high quality protein, whatever you want to take, high score, whatever, under the scoring system you agree with, do you agree that that is the amount to maximize muscle protein when it shows that that does for a four hour window,
03:05:25.000So I think we're on the same page that 20-25 grams has basically been shown in a single sitting over a four-hour window in what we call acute, short-term.
03:05:34.000That's been shown to maximize muscle proteins in this.
03:05:36.000And that is because 20 grams, and it's been shown actually you can get less with like egg, you could get like 17 grams or something.
03:05:43.000Because basically you're hitting two things.
03:05:50.000Which is basically like a foreman, right?
03:05:52.000It's like telling the others, like, hey, you should build protein.
03:05:55.000If you don't have any leucine, even if you had all the essential amino acids you want except for leucine, you wouldn't have the foreman telling all the workers to, like, build the muscle, basically.
03:06:45.000So, by the way, just going back to your DS scoring, you're basically looking at, like, rules for Jiu Jitsu tournament, like a Gi Jiu Jitsu tournament, and you're trying to apply them to MMA. So, just because Jiu Jitsu is involved in MMA, it doesn't mean that a scoring system for, like,
03:07:00.000IBJJF or whatever, that doesn't mean that that's the best scoring system for MMA, right?
03:07:37.000Acute anabolic responses are not necessarily associated with long-term muscular gains.
03:07:42.000The topic can only be answered by assessing the results of long-digital studies that directly measure changes in lean mass with the provision of varying protein dosages.
03:07:53.000Okay, so you agree that it's not just about short-term muscle processes.
03:07:58.000Okay, so what it is, Joe, it doesn't matter.
03:08:02.000At a certain point, it doesn't matter because, yeah, let's say you're going to have four times a day, and let's say you're going to have 160 grams of protein, and you have 40 grams, right, of protein four times a day, that's 160 grams.
03:08:14.000So if you're going to optimize muscle mass, and by the way, how much muscle have you put on in the last 15 years?
03:10:19.000So if your goal is to do something and take creatine or protein, You know, these athletic endeavours, like you pointed out, the thing that Patrick does, and we can get into, by the way, the misrepresentation from Robert O'Hurst into Patrick's records,
03:10:35.000if you want, because there was a lot of claims that were made that were completely false again.
03:10:40.000So, basically, if you get enough protein, if you hit one of the windows, if you hit the 1.6 to 2.2 with plant protein, you can hit the muscle protein synthesis.
03:10:49.000And like, all of a sudden he's like...
03:10:51.000So you're saying there's no benefit in animal protein for an amino acid profile versus plant protein?
03:10:58.000No, not if you're getting enough protein.
03:11:01.000So you're saying if you're getting enough protein, there's no benefit.
03:12:00.000But I just want to throw people off, like, depending on where you live, you might want to supplement vitamin D based on not getting enough sun.
03:12:42.000It's important when you look at the FAO and the goals that they're doing to try and stop world hunger.
03:12:46.000It is not important in the Western world, number one, and not important if you're an athlete and you're getting between 1.6 to 2.0 grams per kilogram.
03:12:55.000So what you're saying is that as long as you're getting this 1.6 to 2.2 grams per kilogram of protein, whether it's lentils or peanut butter, that you have enough amino acids to achieve the desired results.
03:13:09.000And it's essentially the exact same as if you're hitting that 2.2 grams.
03:13:13.000If you're getting 2.2 grams, it doesn't matter.
03:13:19.000If you're getting 2.2 grams of protein and you're doing it and you're not doing it in the way that you said where you're not planning it and not making sure you're getting enough leucine, which is low...
03:13:54.000Okay, so slide 34. Because you basically claim that, okay, even if there are enough amino acids, you can't digest it as well.
03:14:02.000The more precise data collected so far in humans assessing real specific oral ileal nitrogen digestibility has shown that the differences in the digestibility between plant and animal protein sources are only a few percent contrary to historical findings in rats or determinations using less precise methods in humans.
03:14:25.000Okay, and just so you know, I understand that you haven't seen this, probably, because it just came out last month published by Stanford.
03:14:59.000So, when you heat food, the likelihood is, even though it hasn't been tested, we know that the digestibility is less in plants by a few percent.
03:15:49.000If you're in a developing country and you have very little diversity of plant foods and maybe not enough and there's some animals, you should be eating the animals.
03:16:10.000Chris, this has not been that good for your arguments.
03:16:13.000So what are your thoughts on what he said so far and what are your thoughts on what he's refuted about what you had asserted about his show?
03:16:24.000And, you know, my original argument and what we started out talking about was, so you take the film and the claims of the film, the specific claims of the film, and then you also take the question that we started talking about,
03:16:43.000which was, Is there evidence that a 100% plant-based diet is better than a diet that contains animal foods and plant foods?
03:16:56.000And there were a lot of claims in the film that we talked about, about dairy products causing cancer, dairy products contributing to cardiovascular disease, chicken and fish causing cancer.
03:17:09.000Red meat clogging the arteries that we address and haven't had a chance to go into detail on in this show.
03:17:20.000But there was a bunch of stuff that you did say.
03:17:22.000But Joe asked you about protein, and we were talking about protein, and what you just did there is you segued into something else.
03:17:27.000So can you answer definitively, do you think I've presented very good arguments against your rebuttal about both protein quality, including the amount and the ratio, and about protein quality and quantity, including digestibility and amino acid scores?
03:17:43.000I think the protein quantity is still an issue.
03:17:50.000I mean, you've got to have some logical arguments, Chris.
03:17:53.000I'm sorry, but you're like, I have disproven your rebuttal on protein and on...
03:17:59.000B12! I think the qualities and quantities still matter.
03:18:03.000So even though that scale was developed for the FAO, there's still a difference, a quantitative difference in the amino acid profile and digestibility.
03:18:21.000But if it's about amino acids and it's about protein content and digestibility, if what he's saying is correct, then there really is no need to eat meat.
03:18:35.000I mean, you can, like, come up with some other, like, we can go at nutrient, if you want to look at nutrient profiles and, like, then we can look at that.
03:18:41.000But you've got to admit I've presented some good arguments in both favor of quantity and quality.
03:18:45.000I do, and I hadn't seen that last study from 2000. And so I just want to sum it up.
03:18:48.000I want to sum it up by slide 30. Just one last slide on this.
03:20:22.000We're talking about, like, we don't really have that much time left, unfortunately, because we are here at three and a half hours in, and I have another one right after this.
03:20:30.000But what about the film do you think he hasn't refuted your criticisms?
03:20:43.000There's no research to suggest that protein recommendations are different for athletes following a vegetarian diet than for those on an omnivorous diet.
03:20:51.000Now, that is the handbook, the textbook that is used when you become a board-certified specialist in sports dietetics.
03:20:57.000So what this is basically saying is what you said earlier.
03:21:00.000The amino acid profile, once you reach a certain point and a certain amount of grams per kilogram.
03:21:05.000And you've got to reach that amount anyway, even with meat.
03:22:20.000In the interview, or in the film, when you said, and I've seen you say this on interviews, we have 22 years of research showing that a single high-fat meal impairs endothelial function.
03:23:14.000Well, I got a bunch that actually contradict that.
03:23:16.000So, the same study, the same researcher that did that study, Found that taking vitamin C and E after the high-fat meal completely eliminated the effect that it had on endothelial function, which suggests that a healthy omnivorous diet with plants wouldn't have the same impact.
03:23:34.000There was a 2019 review, and this will be at kresser.co slash gamechangers.com.
03:23:40.000Adding nuts, avocados, olives, berries, spice blends, orange juice, red wine, and protein, including milk protein, to a high-fat meal prevents endothelial dysfunction and oxidative stress.
03:23:53.000We've got several studies that suggest that dairy and egg proteins improve endothelial function.
03:24:00.0002015 controlled trial with 52 subjects.
03:24:03.000Dietary proteins, including milk and egg, improved endothelial function.
03:24:08.0002006 study, adding dietary protein to a high-fat meal, prevented postprandial endothelial dysfunction.
03:24:15.000We have 2009 study, followed subjects for 12 weeks.
03:24:19.000A low-carb diet improved endothelial function, whereas a low-fat diet decreased it.
03:24:53.000The point is that low-carb diets that contain animal products and that milk and egg protein have been shown to improve endothelial function, not worsen it.
03:25:01.000The claim in the film was that animal protein worsens endothelial function.
03:25:05.000Right, because that is the scientific consensus and we keep going back to this, Chris.
03:25:35.000Everything is healthy compared to what?
03:25:39.000Healthy or unhealthy compared to what?
03:25:41.000So if you have a low-carb diet and you replace a bunch of white sugar and flour, you might not see...
03:25:47.000The outcome is going to be a decrease.
03:25:49.000But the claim that was made in the film is that animal proteins worsen endothelial function.
03:25:55.000I just listed a whole bunch of studies, especially those suggesting, here's one that says, influence of food patterns on endothelial biomarkers is a systematic review.
03:26:06.000The conclusion was that healthy food patterns, abundant in fruits and vegetables, had a beneficial impact on endothelial function.
03:26:13.000Westernized patterns, higher intakes of processed meats, sweets, fried foods, refined grains were positively associated to influence.
03:27:00.000So when you see fat, that's called postprandial lipemia.
03:27:03.000That means after a meal, fat in the blood, right?
03:27:06.000That is associated with up to a 50% decreased endothelial function, which means less nitric oxide is produced, which means that the arteries can't open up as much, less oxygen, less nutrients to the muscles, okay?
03:27:18.000As you can see in this graph, I don't know, so the solid line is the triglycerides, this is after the meal, okay, which was,
03:27:33.000by the way, a shake of whipping cream and liquid chocolate and nonfat dry milk, okay, As you eat the meal, you can see that the triglycerides go up.
03:28:33.000The only thing I've changed about this graph is I put the green dots for the plant-based meal and the red dots for the animal-based meal.
03:28:40.000So they were eating Korean barbecue, egg, milk, oil, mayonnaise, rice, and vegetables.
03:28:45.000And on the other hand, they were having a vegan meal of soup, kimchi, vegetables, orange juice, apple.
03:28:49.000So it was matched for calories at 800 calories.
03:28:51.000The green is in red, and the, sorry, the green is plants, and the red is animal-based.
03:28:56.000So, I don't know if you want to go into, but basically, I mean, you've slide 74. Again, please try to remember, a lot of people are listening to this.
03:30:06.000So what that's saying, acute means short term and chronic is long term.
03:30:09.000Under acute thing, it affects your endothelial function, your ability to exercise and perform, and in the long term affects chronic conditions like heart disease.
03:30:44.000I said there was a lot of other evidence contradicting it.
03:30:47.000So, again, if we want to bring up a study, effects of dietary carbohydrate restriction versus low-fat diet on flow-mediated dilation.
03:30:56.000This is what you've been talking about.
03:30:59.000No, because you're not comparing it to the diet that I'm suggesting.
03:31:01.000After 12 weeks, peak flow-mediated dilation at 3 hours increased from 5.1% to 6.5% in the carbohydrate-restricted group and decreased from 7.9% to 5.2% in the low-fat diet group.
03:32:37.000And they all improved endothelial function.
03:32:40.000And then another study showing dietary protein, milk or soy.
03:32:47.000To a high-fat meal prevented postprandial endothelial dysfunction.
03:32:52.000And then there are the two low-carb studies that I mentioned.
03:32:55.000There's a controlled trial that found that a low-carb, high-fat diet improved pulse wave velocity, which is another marker of endothelial function.
03:33:03.000There are studies of the Mediterranean diet, which is a healthy diet pattern that includes some animal products, include improved pulse wave velocity.
03:33:11.000Seafood consumption protects against endothelial damage.
03:33:19.000Can I just say, for example, you said you were trying to refute the study about the increased risk of colon cancer between vegetarians and non-vegetarians, right?
03:33:30.000The three times increased risk for those who had white meat, like fish or chicken, once or twice a week.
03:33:34.000And then you go to a meta-analysis, which is not comparing...
03:33:38.000You're comparing fish to bacon or beef.
03:34:01.000But you don't know how to read a forest plot.
03:34:03.000I took a master's level research methodology class.
03:34:08.000I'm referring to studies that are in the peer-reviewed literature, James, and you haven't answered the question.
03:34:15.000If protein impairs endothelial function, why are studies showing that milk and egg don't George Dillman did a study showing that the heart rate went up when he did a knockout without touching someone.
03:34:30.000Just because you can show studies that I haven't had a chance to read and dig into doesn't need me that my point is valid.
03:34:38.000The film has been reviewed And it's been accredited by the Defense Health Agency.
03:36:33.000The consensus of experts that agree that we should be on a 100% or even 95% plant-based diet is the same as the consensus on climate change.
03:36:46.000Parallel is that the scientific consensus says that we should be in predominantly plant-based diets and that vegan and even vegan diets are helpful for all stages of life cycle.
03:36:56.000I've shown that you can get enough protein.
03:36:57.000I've shown that the quality DS scoring doesn't matter.
03:37:00.000I've shown that the B12 stuff that you got is completely wrong.
03:37:05.000You want me to show you that even despite having lower creatine levels, because people have pointed out in the film, oh, you said as long as you get all the amino acids, that's enough.
03:37:13.000You didn't point out that the study said vegetarians have lower creatine sores, therefore it may affect performance.
03:37:22.000I've got a bunch of studies where it has been tested, where they had vegetarians and meat eaters had equivocal fat-free mass, equivocal power output, equivalent time to fatigue, despite lower creatine levels.
03:37:33.000And we know that creatine is ergogenic.
03:37:34.000I've also got other studies showing that when vegetarians actually take supplemental creatine, they get increased gains of over one pound of muscle over the meat eaters.
03:37:43.000So despite lower creatine, which we know is the most studied supplement They're getting that because their intake of creatine is lower.
03:37:55.000You could say, we should have more creatine in their diet, and then they wouldn't need to supplement with that to get the bigger response.
03:38:02.000Right, but it points out that despite lower creatine source, which we know are ergogenic, which are performance-enhancing, they still have equivocal fat-free mass, muscle, and power output and time to fatigue.
03:38:15.000And when you add creatine in, you get a benefit.
03:38:18.000Now, I'm not saying that everyone should be taking creatine, but if you're trying to build as much muscle as possible, I think you should.
03:38:23.000And by the way, meat eaters also tend to supplement that are trying to bodybuild with creatine as well.
03:38:28.000So I'm saying that despite the fact of lower creatine, which we know...
03:38:31.000Would you argue that's probably the most well-studied and best...
03:38:36.000A supplement that we know of that can help...
03:38:54.000If someone watched the last episode where he tried to debunk the film for 2 hours and 50 minutes, do you feel that I've fairly addressed a lot of the critiques?
03:40:00.000But that's what they are saying when they compare meat eaters versus...
03:40:02.000You're not comparing Joe Rogan's and his diet versus an equivalent...
03:40:07.000No, but all I'm pointing it out is that you are saying that vegans are typically more deficient in certain nutrients.
03:40:14.000They are in certain nutrients, but that's because a lot of people aren't smart and don't like...
03:40:17.000So you're looking at the overall group of them versus the people that are doing it as recommended by these studies that are showing the appropriate amount of amino acids they're doing it or they're bound.
03:40:59.000But the useful thing, the really useful thing is he has like the daily dozen, you know, about what all of the evidence is showing we should be eating.