Joe Pesci is a veteran journalist who broke the story that started it all. He tells the story of Bob Lazar, the man who uncovered the truth about Area 51 and the cover-up that led to the discovery of Area 51. In this episode, Joe talks about how he broke the biggest story of the 20th century, and how he got to where he is today. He also talks about the people who helped him break the story, and why he believes that Area 51 is part of a much bigger conspiracy than the one he uncovered. And, of course, he talks about UFOs and their connection to the JFK assassination and the JFK Assassination. This episode is brought to you by LaCie and the National Museum of American History in Dallas, Texas. To find a list of our sponsors and show-related promo codes, go to gimlet.fm/OurAdvertisers or call in to our sponsor discount code: CRIMINALS at 1-800-RADIO for 10% off your first purchase of a copy of Conspiracy Theories. or visit our website and enter the discount code CRIMECODE at checkout to receive 10% OFF your entire purchase. CRIMECAODE and get 10% all year long when you enter the offer ends on October 31st, 2019. . Thanks to Joe and Jeremy for sponsoring this episode. Thanks also to Jeremy for making this episode! Thank you, Jeremy and Joe for your support and support this episode and for all the support we can't thank you for making it happen. and all the love you show you're giving us a chance to spread the word about this podcast. Thanks also goes out there's more than 40 people can't ask for it. -- Thank you to Joe, Joe & Jeremy for the chance to help us out there to help spread the message out there. Thank you Joe and the rest of the word out there! -- Thanks, Joe and I'm looking forward to seeing you out there -- this is becoming a little bit more than just a little more than 5 stars and a whole lot more of you can do more than that, thank you, Joe, more than you can see us out here. - Thank you. , Jeremy and Jeremy - Cheers, Thank you for listening out there, Joe and Jerrod, Sarah, Sarah, and much more! - The Crew
00:00:25.0001989. 1989. 1989, I remember reading about it, I remember hearing about it, I remember watching clips on television and watching countless Bob Lazar interviews.
00:00:39.000I mean, did you think at that time, what was your thoughts about UFOs before you had met Bob Lazar and how much did it change while you got to know him and hear his story?
00:01:16.000His dad developed the Learjet, the 8-track tape.
00:01:19.000John had run for the State Senate, and he had a certain amount of credibility with our news organization, KLAS-TV, because he had helped us break a really big story.
00:01:28.000And the story was the stealth fighter, the F-117.
00:01:31.000He had told my boss, Ned Day, managing editor, about this amazing plane that was invisible to radar flying up in Tonopah in Area 51. We had an interest in Area 51, not UFO related, but Ned broke that story.
00:03:06.000Yeah, I read that book and halfway through I was like, what in the fuck is this?
00:03:10.000Yeah, he tied in the JFK assassination.
00:03:13.000Bases on the moon, aliens are there right now.
00:03:16.000He had this scenario where he had seen these documents when he was in the Navy, and he's going to tell the world about it, then he's going to go away.
00:03:24.000Well, every time he told the story, the documents got bigger and bigger, and anybody who criticized Bill Cooper became part of the secret government, including me.
00:03:32.000So we do this third show with Lear, and he hints that he knows a guy who might be going to work out at Area 51 and knows something about alien technology.
00:03:40.000That guy turns out to be Bob Lazar, but Lear didn't give me the name at that time.
00:03:46.000I am anchoring the 5 o'clock news on KLAS, and we have a nightly or evening interview segment, five-minute segment, live interview.
00:03:56.000Our guest doesn't show up, and we're scrambling to find somebody to fill that hole, and I thought about Lear.
00:04:02.000So I called him up, not knowing what had been going on in Lazar's life or Lear's life, and I said, hey, is that UFO guy you told me about, is he around?
00:04:38.000And we realized we had touched the pulse of the public in a way that I didn't really understand.
00:04:43.000We arranged to go meet Bob Lazar, my news director Bob Stolow and I, that following weekend and put him through a paces where we would ask him questions about his background and how he got the job.
00:04:53.000We spent a couple hours with him and we walked out of that meeting thinking, holy shit, what if this is true?
00:04:59.000You know, this is really risky for us as journalists.
00:05:03.000It's risky for our personal reputations.
00:05:05.000If it blows up in our faces and we do this story, and it would really damage the reputation of our news organization, which is, KLAS is a jewel.
00:05:13.000It's always been a leader in Las Vegas, one of the best TV news operations in the country.
00:06:57.000I mean, you cannot convey what it was like, how weird it was then, breaking into his house, leaving the windows open, messing with things in his home, breaking into his car, leaving the doors and windows down, just messing with his head.
00:07:11.000And you think that was the government that was doing that?
00:09:15.000I've had to deal with it for 31 years.
00:09:18.000But I always thought if he worked at Los Alamos in classified projects in a scientific or technical capacity, then it would make sense that he could get hired into a program like S4 as somebody who thinks outside the box.
00:09:33.000Despite personal shortcomings or whatever, they might bring somebody like him in to help them crack a problem that they hadn't been able to resolve themselves.
00:10:11.000He had been hired by a company called Kirkmeyer, which is a company that's a headhunter that fills positions at Los Alamos and places like that.
00:10:45.000It made me mad, and I think that that is really what got me hooked in the story, is that I was being jacked around by government and national facilities like that.
00:10:54.000We should explain the Los Alamos thing, because the Los Alamos thing coincided with him doing work at MIT, right?
00:11:04.000And the way he explained it to me, I don't think I'm at liberty to say what the project was, because the project, the way he was describing it, Is essentially internationally illegal, like what they were working on.
00:11:18.000And that's one of the reasons why he was saying, he explained what the project was.
00:11:23.000It sounded very feasible, also very evil.
00:12:02.000But here's – I had always told him and I've – you know, Bob, you're my friend.
00:12:06.000I want to have a conversation with you about these claimed degrees because I didn't believe that he'd ever sat down – you know, in those days you go to a college like MIT or Caltech and get a degree.
00:12:15.000You've got to take classes in something other than science.
00:13:33.000Yeah, he's obviously a very intelligent man.
00:13:36.000When you listen to him talk, there's no bullshitting going on.
00:13:40.000When he talks about undeniable, concrete things when it comes to science, when it comes to elements, when it comes to propulsion systems, he clearly knows what he's talking about.
00:13:51.000And the really confusing thing For people that are detractors is he really hasn't changed his story in 31 years.
00:14:28.000It's a blurry slideshow, but Bob has been remarkably consistent.
00:14:34.000The only thing that he's vacillated on, we varied a little bit, is whether or not he saw an alien or whether or not he saw someone who was looking at something that was the size of an alien, like a small figure,
00:14:50.000like whether or not they were trying to determine how large...
00:14:53.000A creature would have to be to use one of those small crafts.
00:14:55.000Because the crafts were very small in terms of like for a human being.
00:15:01.000It was more like something that was built for a child.
00:15:04.000And he walked by a window and looked inside.
00:15:07.000And in some of the earlier discussions of it, he believed that he might have seen an alien.
00:15:12.000But he was really clear that he only saw it for literally a second as he was walking by, saw something.
00:15:18.000And again, you know how the brain works in memory.
00:15:27.000Well, Bob admitted from the beginning.
00:15:29.000Remember, the first interview we did, I think it was June of 89. So it was a little after we did that live interview, but months before we went with his ID. And that was really, we recorded it in case something happened to him.
00:15:42.000He was afraid he was going to be killed.
00:15:43.000There were a lot of really weird things going on.
00:17:01.000Various scenarios have popped up over the years about why he came forward.
00:17:04.000There are people who believe he just made it up.
00:17:06.000He was trying to make money or he wanted attention.
00:17:08.000There are people who believe it's government disinformation to distract attention from something else that was going on out there.
00:17:14.000Or they believe both of them, which, you know, they would seem to be mutually exclusive.
00:17:18.000Bob would admit that he had no business being there, that there were much more qualified people to work on those kind of things.
00:17:26.000Maybe he was a guy who thinks outside the box, who might give a new slant on trying to figure this stuff out that they had had for decades and had not been able to duplicate.
00:19:13.000He had an illegal firework show that would go out in the desert every year that became a world-class event.
00:19:19.000He got into some legal trouble after he'd worked out there.
00:19:23.000So there's a lot of things in his life they could use to discredit him.
00:19:26.000The people who still maintain that Bob was a disinformation plot, it was meant to distract attention out from something else going on out there, whoever came up with that idea should be fired, because as a result of Bob coming forward with that story, Area 51 is now known all over the world.
00:19:41.000I'm sorry, but the Bob Lazar version of the tale is the one that prevailed.
00:19:57.000Our AAA baseball team became the 51s because of the Lazar story.
00:20:01.000The E.T. Highway is created and christened by our governor.
00:20:06.000You know, that story, that version that he told is now known all over the world, whether detractors like it or not.
00:20:12.000And if somebody was trying to distract attention away from something going on at Area 51, it failed miserably because tens of thousands of people made the trek out there.
00:20:21.000Even today, 31 years later, every single day, there's somebody with binoculars or a scope or something looking for whatever is flying around out there.
00:20:29.000Every major news organization in the world, after giving me nothing but grief, has beaten a path to Area 51's door.
00:20:38.000And Bob's story about reverse engineering craft from somewhere else is now part of a much larger and current series of events that we can get into.
00:20:49.000Yeah, and that story that he told when he was on the podcast here got phenomenal response.
00:20:56.000There were so many people that I talked to that were my friends who were skeptical about that shit.
00:21:01.000They call me up and go, hey man, I'm starting to believe this is real.
00:21:05.000And I'm like, you should watch the documentary and then you should watch the Commander Fravor interview where he talks about the Tic Tac UFO. I think?
00:21:32.000Quite a few people from that interview have completely changed their tune.
00:21:35.000Friends of mine who thought it was total horseshit have done a 180 and they're like, fuck, is this real?
00:21:40.000And then the New York Times story came out, of course, and the New York Times is showing all these images of these UFOs and these things that they can't explain at all.
00:21:50.000Exhibit very similar propulsion methods or at least speeds that they can't explain.
00:22:00.000And there's legitimate people, legitimate scientists now that are starting to take this into consideration and say, okay, if this is from Earth, Then there's got to be some sort of a program that has technology that's far beyond anything we knew was possible.
00:22:17.000Is it because there's some super geniuses that the government gets a hold of right when they're in college and they immediately ship them off to the desert and have them create this stuff?
00:22:26.000Are we, in fact, encountering something like us from the future or something from another place that has had a completely different path to technology?
00:22:35.000But it's not outside the realm of possibility.
00:22:47.000We're watching films that are instantly downloaded wirelessly.
00:22:54.000From these servers, I mean, just the technology that we have right now is completely alien to anybody who was around in Roswell in 1947. From 1947 to 2020, in terms of the universe, is not even a half of a blink of an eye.
00:23:10.000And then, boom, things have changed so radically.
00:23:12.000It's not crazy to think that something from somewhere is far ahead of us.
00:24:10.000And they started talking about gravity amplification.
00:24:12.000It was just so cool to see them talk without an audience.
00:24:15.000What the fuck did Commander Fravor see?
00:24:18.000And Bob was, it's cool that when he can be calm and chill like that and just talk to another human.
00:24:23.000And what's crazy is what Commander Fravor is describing is what Bob was describing the propulsion systems of 1989 that they were working on.
00:24:55.000It is a saucer-shaped thing that is rotating mechanically against the wind.
00:25:01.000They all know that this has to be a gravity-propelled program.
00:25:05.000We understand the science that it takes to do it.
00:25:08.000We can't replicate it with our material sciences, our best information at this time.
00:25:18.000We can't replicate this technology, but we do understand how it works, fundamentally.
00:25:23.000Fundamentally, we just don't have the power to actually make it.
00:25:25.000The material science even, just the actual physical material science, the materials it's made out of, and that's what's been in the news now, metamaterials, that there are materials from craft that we have.
00:25:37.000George will talk about that, but Lazar is parallel with what we're seeing today.
00:25:43.000Yeah, and what's also really bonkers is in 89 he was talking about element 115. It wasn't even scientifically proven to exist until 2013. So in 1989 he was talking about, this is science fiction, he's making things up.
00:25:56.000In 2013 they actually were able to create, for a brief moment, an element 115, which is this insanely dense element that they believe is perhaps the propulsion system for this craft.
00:26:10.000It was always theorized, of course, element 115, but fabricating it was an achievement.
00:26:16.000But yeah, if you're talking about being a winner every time history writes itself, Bob, it's insane.
00:27:01.000And they videotaped it, and all the witnesses who were there have verified it, and it was not over Area 51. It was over Papoose, which officially has no facility.
00:27:11.000Bob knew a lot of stuff that he couldn't have known otherwise, and it's been proven over the years.
00:27:16.000He didn't know stuff that was disproven.
00:27:18.000He didn't make up a bunch of crazy shit like the William Cooper book, right?
00:27:25.000There's a lot of people that have speculated what that was all about, whether William Cooper was just schizophrenic, whether he was writing some truths mixed in with crazy things so you could discount the truth.
00:27:36.000I mean, that is a real strategy that the government will employ if they know that information is going to get leaked out.
00:27:43.000And they want to somehow or another discredit it, they'll connect it to really loony stuff that is absolutely not true.
00:27:48.000And they'll say, where'd you get that information?
00:27:50.000Oh, I got it from Behold the Pale Horse.
00:28:15.000To be clear what George just said, Bob always said there's a place called Site 4. That was never mentioned anywhere at Papoose.
00:28:21.000He verified it in 1989 with head of public relations, who was a homie of his at Area 51. We then call 30 years later and they give us the...
00:28:30.000Funniest fucking answer, trying to not talk about Sight Force.
00:31:41.000And I'm like, well, it shows that you filmed this with your friends back then and that at least you believed you had 115. So what I have in the film, it's not definitive proof, but it shows that they weren't lying, that they filmed it.
00:32:26.000So if Bob had a laser pointer back then, with the principles of the 115, which he did get out and he does not- Where's the 115 in this image?
00:34:07.000I mean, I've got thousands of tapes from that era, and I have saved them all, and I've moved them around, and I use them in different productions.
00:37:26.000It just means he's a guy who's into UFOs who can string words together in an appropriate sentence that seems like he knows what he's talking about, and so they put him on TV. And when I did that sci-fi show, Joe Rogan Questions Everything, I lost all my faith in UFO research.
00:38:39.000They probably – if UFOs are real and aliens exist, they have it in contact, they probably don't think we can handle it.
00:38:45.000So they probably want to keep us as calm as possible and just dismiss everything and go back to work, go back to sleep, do what you got to do, don't pay attention to this.
00:38:55.000This is all nonsense and that's what most people do.
00:38:57.000But when the government is actually openly discussing the fact that they not only have been studying this but they have some video footage of some things they cannot explain.
00:39:06.000And they're saying this just out in public, in legitimate, recognized publications, newspapers, television shows.
00:39:40.000I chase bad guys mostly for the I-team.
00:39:42.000But those UFO stories have gone all over the world.
00:39:46.000The UFO field is so polluted with liars and exaggerators and fast-buck artists and people who appropriate this story for their own political agendas, to make money, to get attention.
00:40:01.000It takes 90% of your energy just to wade through the crap and get to the hard facts, and there aren't that many of them, and to figure out who's telling the truth, who's reliable, who's honestly trying to pursue the story and get to the truth.
00:40:15.000It's a task that is difficult, and I don't blame other journalists for not giving it a fair shake, because it's not something you could do in a week.
00:40:24.000I remember saying to myself, this is how cocky I was in the beginning, is, you know, I'm reading these UFO books, and boy, this field is a mess.
00:40:31.000But there is some good information in here.
00:40:34.000Give me six months, and I'll have this figured out.
00:40:44.000Who they are, where they're from, why they're here, what they're interested in us, what the long-term agenda is.
00:40:49.000We don't know that, and I don't think anybody does.
00:40:52.000I've gone pretty far high up the food chain.
00:40:55.000As a career journalist, what did it feel like to you when you started seeing the government actually coming out and saying, we are trying to investigate these reports, we know that there is something to them, these are real claims by You know,
00:41:12.000real pilots, real scientists have reviewed these things and they find them troubling.
00:42:10.000And then, of course, when Freedom of Information Act became the law of the land, all these agencies that had lied about it – nope, we don't have any UFO reports – have to cough up thousands and thousands of pages.
00:42:20.000They have absolutely stonewalled this and lied to the public for a long time.
00:42:25.000So to finally see them admit, yes, we're taking it seriously, which I have known all along.
00:43:05.000It's still a mixture of lies and some glimpses of truth, but I never thought I would see this in my lifetime.
00:43:12.000I never thought I'd see this much progress.
00:43:14.000The last two and a half years has been the most astonishing time in the history of this subject.
00:43:19.000And I'll tell you, Joe, there is stuff bubbling right under the surface now that is going to rock our world, I think, in the next year or so.
00:43:26.000Did you see Trump on TV being interviewed by his son?
00:43:48.000Yeah, he's been – he's had – for the last year, he's had UFO people once a month or so, Lou Elizondo and Chris Mellon and people like that.
00:43:55.000And I thought that would – if anything, that would get Trump's attention because you know that's what he pays attention to.
00:45:42.000Part of what has happened is it not only happened to us, the U.S., but in Russia.
00:45:46.000So once I got UFO fever and became a UFO reporter, I traveled all over the world.
00:45:52.000And one of the places I went twice was Russia.
00:45:55.000After the fall of the Soviet Union, it occurred to me that maybe we might be able to learn more from the Russians about what our government knows about UFOs than our government will ever tell us.
00:46:06.000And I met a Russian physicist who was here in the U.S. to lecture on disarmament issues at national labs.
00:46:14.000He was getting ready to go back to Russia.
00:46:15.000He had been the national security advisor to Boris Yeltsin.
00:46:18.000He was a national security advisor to the Russian parliament.
00:47:02.000We sent Nikolai back to Moscow, gave him a stipend, and his instructions were, find people who are in a position to know, high up in the military or the government, who have never talked about this before.
00:47:16.000And it took about eight months for him to report back and get all these people lined up, and then I went to Russia and met him and interviewed him.
00:47:45.000If they saw any ball of light, anomalous aircraft, UFO, anything weird like that, they had to report it to the KGB, and all that information went to one desk at the Ministry of Defense.
00:47:55.000Colonel Sokolov was that desk, and they had thousands of reports that had never been made public before.
00:48:00.000He told me about 45 different incidents where Russian warplanes had chased UFOs, couldn't catch them.
00:48:06.000Three of the instances, these UFOs shot them down.
00:48:09.000Two of those pilots died, and after that he said, The order went out, look, if you see these things, don't mess with them.
00:48:16.000He said their study was for a very practical reason.
00:48:19.000These craft could do things that the Russians could not.
00:48:22.000And they wanted to get an advantage over the Americans in terms of stealth technology.
00:48:27.000So they wanted to do what people in reverse engineering programs are doing, figure out how the UFOs work so they could have an advantage over us.
00:48:35.000I had to smuggle some of these documents back.
00:48:38.000If I had been caught with this stuff – because some of it was classified – if I'd been caught, I'd still be in a gulag somewhere.
00:50:10.000You've got a nuclear-powered carrier there and other warships around it, and you've got these strange radar sightings for a couple of weeks right off the coast of the U.S. This is an intruder.
00:50:24.000And even though these aliens, whatever they are, are not firing beams and wiping out our cities, you have to consider it a threat.
00:50:31.000That's the job of our Defense Department.
00:50:33.000They don't know what it is, but they know it shouldn't be there, and it's not ours.
00:50:36.000And I think that's what the program is going on right now.
00:50:40.000It's a legitimate national security issue.
00:50:42.000It deserves to be investigated in spite of the larger social implications that we're not alone.
00:50:48.000The Tic-Tac craft that was spotted off San Diego, it performed something spectacular in terms of its ability to go from the surface of the water to 60,000 feet in how long?
00:51:10.000Less than a second, but there's actually more to it.
00:51:54.000I go, what do you mean it noticed you?
00:51:56.000And he says, as I was descending rapidly to engage it, it turned its nose and began to intelligently mirror my movements, came right up by me.
00:52:06.000And he says, faster than you can see, like you can't even see a bullet leave a gun.
00:54:21.000Like a lot of the wacky theories that he has are like, I wonder, you know, it's real weird like that a smart man can make such really bizarre conclusions.
00:54:51.000Talk about the debunking and what his claims are in the debunking.
00:54:54.000Okay, so one that I recently attacked because it was so ridiculous is he was saying that the Go Fast video, which is this object that goes along in a straight line, one of the three videos that was released, he said it was probably a bird.
00:55:43.000These things are weapons systems that are highly trained to be able to accurately represent spatial awareness and to be able to target enemy combatants.
00:56:40.000Out of anything I could say about this video because there's not a lot of information in there, what I can say is that object you're seeing is colder than the surface of the ocean.
00:56:50.000Now I looked up the surface of the ocean temperature at that location at that time because we had the information.
00:57:37.000We have an object that is colder than the surface of the ocean that immediately gets rid of the bird theory because a bird would be hypothermic and drop like a paperweight into the water.
00:57:51.000So that's the piece of information I would attack that debunking with.
00:57:55.000But this video, when you're watching that, if it is going 200 miles an hour, that's not outside of what's possible with spacecraft or aircraft or just planes.
00:59:45.000The premise that the U.S. government would tell you, all right, look, we're going to release these videos reluctantly.
00:59:52.000Lou Elizondo is the guy that got them released, and then the U.S. government formally released them a couple of months ago.
00:59:58.000The idea that the U.S. government would release it, the Pentagon says, these are unidentified.
01:00:03.000You know, if it was a bird or a jet engine, the pilots would not have the kind of reaction that they had that you can hear on the audio.
01:00:12.000Our government does not tell members of Congress, the Pentagon doesn't go to the Senate Intelligence Committee, show them those videos and say, yeah, it's unidentified if it isn't.
01:00:22.000And, you know, the reaction of the pilots, the fact that they were forced to release it to begin with, suggests it really is unidentified.
01:00:31.000Why do you think they've addressed it?
01:00:33.000Why do you think that they have addressed the fact that they're studying these things?
01:01:14.000The result is other media covered as well.
01:01:17.000They've been ignoring it forever, and that allowed people to keep these secrets.
01:01:22.000That pressure meant that people in Congress started asking questions.
01:01:26.000Two days after the story came out, I interviewed Senator Harry Reid, who was the one who got the money to create that program that became AATIP. And he said his phone had been ringing off the hook from other members of Congress who are now suddenly interested.
01:01:38.000I didn't know there was a program they're telling him.
01:01:42.000It started a series of closed-door briefings on Capitol Hill that continue to this day.
01:01:47.000The pilots, like Dave Fravor, were hauled before Congress, first in front of the staff of the Senate Intelligence, and then Senate Armed Services, and then the elected members, these senators who get briefed on it.
01:01:58.000And they were impressed, and they wanted more pilots to come in.
01:02:01.000So it's been going on for two and a half years.
01:02:03.000And two weeks ago, no, excuse me, about a month ago now, The culmination of it, Senator Marco Rubio, who is now the chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, drops this bill.
01:02:13.000And it's the budget for the intelligence budget for next year.
01:02:16.000And he includes a UFO provision in there.
01:02:19.000We want, Congress wants to have a mechanism set up where we get regular briefings from the Pentagon on UFOs.
01:02:26.000That's an astonishing change of events.
01:02:28.000It's because of the media pressure and then congressional interest.
01:02:32.000It made it more acceptable for everybody to pursue the subject matter.
01:02:37.000It's kind of out of the shadows and the Pentagon has reacted in fits and starts.
01:02:41.000So sometimes, as they said to the New York Times, that program ended.
01:02:47.000At first they said it did, then they said it didn't.
01:02:49.000They've admitted Lou Elizondo worked on the program, then they said he didn't.
01:02:53.000They've said that the OSAP, which is the other program, the mother program that became AATEP, that that had nothing to do with UFOs, but it did.
01:03:02.000So they continue to sort of lie and obfuscate and muddy the waters, but the fact is that there's too much momentum from media and Congress and the public to hide this anymore.
01:03:12.000You should tell Joe about how the government program ASAP was created directly because George wrote this book about a little place called Skinwalker Ranch where the government was studying this property.
01:03:25.000That happened because of his book, some DIA guys.
01:03:47.000So we did that story in the series in 89. One of the first people to call me after that was a guy I'd never heard of before named Robert Bigelow, a billionaire.
01:03:55.000He calls me up and says, I was really interested in that.
01:03:57.000I've been interested in UFOs for a long time.
01:04:07.000They had a little – he started meeting with him and pumping him for information.
01:04:11.000And that really amplified Bigelow's lifelong interest in it.
01:04:15.000He created something called NIDS, the National Institute for Discovery Science, which he made a science advisory board of the best and the brightest in both the UFO field and the field of consciousness.
01:04:35.000And he assembled this board, former CIA guys, two former astronauts, men who had walked on the moon, Dr. Edgar Mitchell, Dr. Hal Puthoff, physicists, psychologists, really a brilliant little think tank to take on these two topics.
01:04:51.000I was allowed to be a fly on the wall for some of it, not all of it, but some.
01:04:54.000And I told Harry Reid about it in 1996, and he said, can I go?
01:05:00.000And so he showed up and sat in on the meetings, and he was kind of hooked.
01:05:04.000Harry Reid was the first person I told about Bob Lazar outside of our newsroom.
01:05:08.000Before we aired the stories, I'd known him since he first ran for Congress in 1982. Then he becomes Senate Majority Leader.
01:05:16.000So he'd always had an interest in it, but he didn't want it to be known publicly.
01:05:20.000That does not help your reelection chances.
01:05:22.000So in 2005, We write the book about Skinwalker Ranch.
01:07:01.000He hears about these stories going on on this one property, flies in, meets with the rancher.
01:07:06.000And by this time, that rancher and his family had lived on the ranch for 20 months.
01:07:10.000And they were so scared that he, his wife, and his two kids were all sleeping at night on the floor in the same room because it had messed with them so badly.
01:07:28.000For example, the wife goes shopping to the grocery store.
01:07:31.000She buys all this food, comes back, puts it on the table, takes it out, puts it in the shelves, leaves the room, comes back in, all the food's back in the bag.
01:08:01.000They start hearing voices at night in the air, speaking a strange language.
01:08:05.000They start seeing shapes outside the window at night, big, lurking humanoid shapes, hearing heavy footsteps outside, then hearing heavy footsteps inside.
01:08:14.000Then their animals started being mutilated.
01:09:15.000The lights start coming toward he and his son.
01:09:18.000Then they go up into the sky, up over the trees, and then poof, gone.
01:09:23.000These different kinds of orbs, the white ones that were intelligently controlled, not fireflies, not bugs, blue ones that would go, they seemed to touch the fear center in your brain.
01:11:53.000Well, all this we're saying those cattle mutilations, I guess that's some evidence, but that's only evidence of cows and we can mutilate cows.
01:12:35.000I mean, so Bigelow puts up cameras all over the property, and you have them focused here where some activity had happened before, the thing moves over here.
01:12:46.000You move the cameras and focus there, it goes away.
01:12:50.000Toward the end of the study, whatever it was that was there, one of these cameras would rip to shreds.
01:12:57.000They're up on top of a telephone pole.
01:13:01.000And there's wires that are secured all the way down the telephone pole.
01:13:05.000And they notice that one of their cameras goes out.
01:13:08.000They figure, well, there's another camera on another pole that should have a view of whatever it was that tore this up, some kind of animal or whatever.
01:15:46.000He got 22 million dollars and went to Bigelow as a contract and they hired all these people and fanned out all over the world to try to find UFO information but other related phenomena.
01:15:56.000Things that wouldn't seem normally to be connected to UFOs but which are.
01:16:02.000A guy from the DIA had read the book and became interested and he asked for permission to go to the property.
01:16:09.000This guy's a double PhD, a brilliant rocket scientist who had seen it and thought there were national security implications, the hole in the sky in particular with things coming in and out.
01:16:19.000He wondered if someone was using technology to make these things happen.
01:20:01.000I mean, although the cattle mutilation thing, you gave me a stack of documents this big, has been studied by the FBI. It's happened all over the country.
01:20:31.000Is that something killed that, they butchered it, they chopped all the meat off of it, and then they removed the carcass from that area and dropped it off there.
01:20:40.000That's what it looks like, if I had to guess.
01:21:59.000While you're looking, I'll tell them about one of the theories about the cattle mutilations that Dr. Kelleher, Dr. Colin Kelleher developed, was that somebody is tracking the spread of, like, mad cow.
01:24:14.000So I made the movie based on George's work of the same title, Hunt for the Skinwalker, right?
01:24:21.000And that movie was telling this story about how the United States government was studying this property and land because of UFOs and weird stuff.
01:24:30.000That and weird stuff included things like cattle.
01:25:20.000And the reason he called me is because in my movie, you could see this special kind of slice, like a jagged slice that is common to these types of things they think are real mutilations.
01:25:35.000He had to ask his pastor if he could even, like, go on camera with me.
01:25:39.000Freaks him out so he sees this now he sees dead animals all the time and he saw this cow he said before Accidentally he was out shooting BB guns with his kid and he's on this big part of land and he sees this down bull and He goes over to it and he's looking at it and it's unlike anything he has ever seen in all of his years before it had Surgical cuts there is no doubt somebody Killed Cut up this animal with those classic,
01:26:05.000like the ear gone, two types of tools, like a scissor type.
01:26:45.000However you want to say it, something, someone is killing these animals in a highly specified technical way that has been repeated since the 50s on.
01:28:03.000These are PhD-level guys who had seen this stuff.
01:28:06.000A lot of times they have cameras that fail.
01:28:09.000I mean, it's, you know, you've heard that story before, and it's very convenient that it happens just when some giant disc shows up, but it does happen, that their car batteries would die in the same spot.
01:29:19.000What I find more interesting is what's happening now with the government study that started here at Skinwalker Ranch, OSAP, the one that was in the New York Times, and where the information is going now.
01:29:39.000The Skinwalker story, lack of physical evidence though there may be, comes to the attention of the Defense Intelligence Agency, this guy, this scientist who sees it.
01:29:58.000He goes back to Washington, meets with Harry Reid in a skiff in the Capitol and two other U.S. Senators.
01:30:05.000He presents them the proposal for a study of UFOs and related phenomena, not just like AATIP, looking at flying saucers that encounter U.S. military, but something more expansive.
01:30:48.000And get this, the reason that the DIA suddenly became worried about all this weirdness that was being reported at Skinwalker and elsewhere is because they thought it was demonic.
01:30:57.000And they thought, if this comes out that we're studying this weird phenomena, A, it's going to end up on the front page of the New York Times, which it did, and B, we might be invoking Satan in here.
01:31:07.000These were fundamentalist Christians in the Pentagon who pulled the money because they thought it was the devil.
01:31:45.000It continued for a couple of years, and after the New York Times story comes out and creates this furor, it got funding.
01:31:53.000And it now has a structured organization, and it is looking into cases where the U.S. military sees these things.
01:31:59.000And off the coast of Virginia, they've been seeing this stuff.
01:32:03.000I think Fravor talked about it when he was here.
01:32:05.000Beach balls with cubes inside of them.
01:32:07.000And they were sitting there for hours off the coast, right where our warplanes would go out for training exercises, as if they wanted to be seen.
01:32:25.000Now the program is on more solid footing.
01:32:28.000Now Congress has been informed and they want to expand it and get more information.
01:32:33.000We are told the New York Times is working on another follow-up story to look into reports of what Lazar said, crash retrievals, reverse engineering, the existence of these metamaterials, bits and pieces that Grand Pod stashed in a barn somewhere, whether it's Roswell or other alleged crashes.
01:32:50.000They're taking it seriously to figure out if there's something about these materials that we could not have created.
01:32:57.000So the BAS program, the OSAP program, We're good to go.
01:33:28.000I brought along two more for you that have not been made public.
01:33:31.000These are like scientific reports based on the government study of UFOs.
01:34:34.000Yeah, the harm that is done to the body, what they call close proximity to a UAP, which is a UFO. There are known effects to the human body that are horrible.
01:34:44.000And there was a study that focused on the witnesses they do know had close encounters, like military people.
01:34:50.000And then how it negatively impacted their body.
01:34:53.000So each of these reports, as he obtains them or as people find them, they're very illuminating to what our government knows.
01:34:59.000There was one that looked at how you would track a hypersonic vehicle traveling through space.
01:35:39.000How would you engineer materials so you could travel through space that would have, say, you shoot it with microwaves and it could develop certain special properties?
01:35:49.000Just to put into context maybe, because here's the deal.
01:35:53.000Our government has now admitted there are UFOs.
01:35:57.000They're unidentified objects or craft that seem to outpace, outmaneuver, actively jam our radar systems, even go over our military installations of high sensitivity.
01:36:38.000Hal Puthoff, who was a physicist who worked with Bigelow on both NIDS and BASS, made a presentation in Las Vegas in June of 2018, where he says, yeah, we've got these materials and we're trying to figure out where they came from and how they were engineered, because some of them Appear to be multi-layered that are beyond what is known engineering capabilities of humans.
01:37:00.000It looks like they would have had to have been made in, say, zero gravity of space, and we don't have any manufacturing plants up there.
01:37:06.000He implied that they came from crashes.
01:37:09.000Doesn't mean it's a UFO from Zeta Reticuli.
01:37:12.000It's crashed from somewhere, and we don't know whose it is.
01:37:15.000So they're trying to figure out whether we can duplicate it or not.
01:37:18.000And they got a bunch of samples and are...
01:37:34.000I was able to obtain them briefly and have five scientists from New Mexico that I knew, material scientists, physicists, interrogate, as they say, the samples for numerous days.
01:37:47.000I don't believe that I had access to the best equipment.
01:38:29.000I'm suspecting, and maybe you can talk more about it, that the next piece of information is that there are reverse engineering programs, which will then make everybody have to look at Lazar's story a little bit differently once again.
01:38:41.000If we admit that we are trying to reverse engineer either materials or actual craft from somewhere else, intelligently designed metals or craft from somewhere else, if there are crash retrieval programs, For vehicles we don't know where they're from,
01:38:57.000that's going to make me look at Bob's story even more differently.
01:39:20.000They've been asking people about this stuff.
01:39:21.000But, I mean, to get that into print, to get it past their editors, that's a hard deal.
01:39:26.000Alleged extraterrestrial material from the bottom of a wedge-shaped craft in the late 1940s made of 26 alternating layers, 1 to 4 microns dark bismuth.
01:39:38.000And 100 to 200 microns of silver magnesium zinc alloy, each of the six pieces received from the U.S. Army source, were formed with a curvature that tapered.
01:39:48.000So basically they're saying there's no process that we know of that would create this alloy layered in that type of layer system.
01:39:56.000I actually have a piece out about this.
01:39:58.000Isn't that kind of how they did samurai swords?
01:40:16.000So if anybody has an archive of this stuff that's being scientifically interrogated right now, and his studies do show isotopic ratios that are not from this earth, so he's confident with his research.
01:42:08.000I mean, I don't know that we have physical evidence other than if Bob Lazar's story is true, we've got craft out there that we didn't make.
01:42:16.000I mean, the idea that we have stuff that we're reverse engineering to figure out how it was made, that would be the clincher.
01:42:24.000I remember reading about J. Allen Hynek when he was running Project Blue Book and how he initially started it with the intent to debunk all of these stories and come up with some sort of rational explanation that he could pass off to the general public.
01:44:41.000Is it like North Korea had leapfrogged us 50 years ago, so all of a sudden, you know, that's our enemy?
01:44:47.000I mean, who is operating this craft that comes in from outer space, drops down to sea level, docks like the Tic Tac was docking with a USO, an underwater craft, and it outpaces our military jets?
01:45:01.000You've got to be dead to not be curious about this.
01:45:05.000So that's the greatest evidence to me is the fact we've been lied to as an American population and we're just starting to peel back layers that this shit is real and our military is worried about it.
01:45:15.000Well, if we haven't been lied to, at the very least, they haven't felt it.
01:45:18.000Well, if they don't have real evidence other than this stuff that we're discussing, if this is all they have, I don't know what they would tell the general public.
01:45:41.000It was like, why would they talk to the government?
01:45:43.000Like, if you came from another planet and you were looking at us, us weird territorial chimps with nuclear weapons, why would you pick one group and then talk to them as opposed to just the general public?
01:45:59.000Would they really be important to you?
01:46:00.000Like, it doesn't make any sense at all.
01:46:02.000Yeah, I never really bought into the stories that there'd been a formal meetings or anything.
01:46:06.000I think the government is as clueless as the rest of us.
01:46:08.000They have more information because they have the sensors to collect it.
01:46:11.000They have a giant apparatus, sensors that detect things coming in and out of space and radar.
01:46:16.000Somewhere there's a giant pile of information that we haven't been able to see.
01:46:20.000But it doesn't mean that it answers the question.
01:46:22.000This thing has been with humans throughout history.
01:46:25.000And it's always just tantalizingly out of reach.
01:46:28.000You know, it used to be golden shields, and then it'd be swords and flaming chariots, and now it's flying saucers.
01:46:34.000And it looks like technology that maybe we could someday achieve, but it's always out of reach.
01:46:39.000And I think it will remain out of reach.
01:46:40.000Well, there's one thing that Bob talked about from some of the documents that he had been given when he was working at S4 was that they had actually taken a part in engineering human beings.
01:46:53.000And that is, to me, like, if you wanted to say, like, what's the thing that's going to get people to roll their eyes the most?
01:47:03.000Well, you would say, well, the aliens came down here and they got a hold of the lower hominids and they accelerated the evolutionary process and they created human beings.
01:47:14.000A lot of people go, get the fuck out of here.
01:48:31.000They're still tearing monkeys apart and eating them alive.
01:48:34.000They're still doing the same things they've been doing for thousands and thousands of years, whereas we're living in condominiums and watching cable.
01:48:42.000You know, it's like whatever has happened to humans has happened so...
01:48:51.000It's so different than any other animal.
01:48:53.000If we really have been visited since the beginning of time, since history, if all those biblical stories and all the stories from the Bhagavad Gita and all these ancient texts that do talk about Vimanas and flying crafts and beings that come down from upon high,
01:49:11.000if all that really is Aliens intervening with the biological evolution of human beings.
01:49:54.000And then when it's time to end the experiment, I mean, I'm not sure people can handle it.
01:49:58.000Look at how they've handled COVID. Well, if you would think about if aliens coming down and interfering with weapon systems and interfering with nuclear launch codes and things along those lines, like If you think about the uptick in alien sightings and activity post-Hiroshima and Nagasaki,
01:50:21.000Like, alright, these fucking dickheads, they've gotten to a point where they can do some really crazy shit and they literally might ruin this whole thing.
01:50:28.000They figured out how to light the match.
01:50:29.000Like, if you take this primate, this animal, and you embed it with...
01:50:38.000The superior or at least more evolutionary advanced genetics.
01:50:43.000And you manipulate it to a point where you make it weaker but smarter, far more curious, and obsessed with innovation.
01:51:34.000The technology that shows up that may be reverse engineered or craft or bits and pieces, you know, I sometimes equate it with, let's throw us, we're aliens, let's throw a cell phone into a chimpanzee cage.
01:53:29.000Weirder, more advanced experiments to primates to create us.
01:53:34.000And how do you tell a population, if you do study UFOs as a government and you find out, okay, shit, they're a craft and they're coming in, they're probably studying us.
01:53:42.000Like, how do you fucking tell people that?
01:53:46.000And the way that it's so compartmentalized, that's been the best proof to me as well.
01:53:51.000If I've talked to somebody who's worked on a project and they're like, all I saw was a supercapacitor in 1974 and I know this was not something we made.
01:54:03.000He just saw a technology that was more efficient than anything he had ever seen.
01:54:08.000So the idea that people are funneling this information, whoever is funneling it, and protecting this information as we see How OSAP and AATIP didn't get special access permission.
01:54:30.000Yeah, the door was slammed in their face when they tried to ask that.
01:54:33.000Senator Reid, who was Senate Majority Leader, had asked for permission to create it as an SAP special access program.
01:54:39.000So they could get access to other goodies, and they said no.
01:54:42.000Like other retrieval programs, material programs, stuff that Bob has talked about.
01:54:47.000So just the fact that it's so hidden, even within its own mechanism, that they won't allow this scientific team to work on this project, it tells me, as Ravi says, something's up.
01:55:15.000Well, it was what the way he described best is that scientific research, the way you progress is everybody works together and it doesn't happen in a vacuum.
01:55:27.000So they were literally trying to do scientific research without the scientific method.
01:55:32.000They were trying to withhold information from them And only get them to concentrate on one aspect of this project without the whole group coming together and getting some sort of a comprehensive understanding of what these things are.
01:55:45.000Bob said he wasn't the most qualified person to do the job either.
01:55:50.000And he didn't have the right materials even.
01:55:52.000Well, I think they probably, let's assume they are alien spacecraft.
01:55:56.000They probably knew that no one was qualified.
01:56:00.000They probably knew that we just really have no idea, especially if they had been working on these things for decades, like Bob assumed they had been.
01:56:08.000They probably had gone through the best scientists that they could, and they realized, look, no one has any idea.
01:56:13.000Let's get this out-of-the-box weirdo who puts jet engines in Hondas.
01:58:30.000I mean it wasn't any you could tell he would stop and he would wince and you know he just didn't like the idea that he was gonna do this thing that he knew that millions and millions of people gonna see him talk about this for hours and hours and he knew it was all gonna come back up again all the investigation all the people fucking with them all the attention that he had avoided another important point is this is not a guy who profited off of this story no and This guy told this story for 31 years and didn't profit off of it.
01:58:56.000The migraine might have been the McDonald's.
01:58:58.000His wife was furious at me because when I brought him over, I was like, just get some in your stomach, man.
02:00:10.000But George has been doing this 30 years.
02:00:11.000It's like you always get one step forward.
02:00:14.000And look, we all want to know if this stuff is true, but the weight of the evidence is so heavy now with the government programs and everything that you've been involved with.
02:01:45.000And they get abducted and through hypnotic regression tell this crazy story of they lost time, their car stops, this UFO shows up and then they have this classic abduction story that we have heard time and time again.
02:02:03.000And I had this conversation with someone where they were saying, do you believe in these UFO abductions?
02:03:10.000I mean, it wasn't until I found out until 1967 or 68, like while I was alive, that interracial couples were allowed to marry in the entire country.
02:03:21.000So Betty and Barney Hill, it's kind of funny when I'm looking at Barney, he does kind of look like Angela.
02:03:36.000Episode 5. The other case that fascinates me besides this one, but that one surely fascinates me because it's the original, but Travis Walton.
02:05:56.000Like, if they have the ability to come here from another galaxy or another solar system, and they can...
02:06:03.000Penetrate our defenses and hover over a place and abduct someone and run experiments on them and put them back there with some sort of a Distorted memory which it seems to be part of the story and many of them that their memory is at least partially wiped and they come back very confused Like how many of those would take place before we would all know about it?
02:06:25.000I mean you they wouldn't have to do it that often There's 300 million people and they do it once a week Who the fuck is going to know?
02:06:41.000It wants to show us glimpses of itself and glimpses of other realities, but it doesn't want us to be able to prove it.
02:06:47.000It's as if it's trying to tell us, it's like a learning curve, you know, that reality isn't what it used to be, that it's way more complicated than you might think it is.
02:07:25.000He thinks about this stuff on a different level.
02:07:28.000It used to be – we all thought it – saw that alien on the cover of his book, Communion, and figured it was a space alien from some other planet.
02:07:36.000And he's on a whole different level about what they might be now.
02:07:58.000Dr. John Mack had suggested that abductions and these strange experiences in connection with them suggest that we're part of a galactic neighborhood, a cosmic neighborhood, multidimensional reality that we haven't got our heads around yet.
02:08:13.000And that it's important for our ultimate survival that we figure it out.
02:09:20.000I work for KLAS. I'm still part of the I-team, but since the beginning of the year, I'm focusing most of our attention on that, producing new content.
02:09:27.000But all this stuff that I've stashed at home and elsewhere is going up on there.
02:09:32.000Dr. John Mack will be on there eventually, because I got to interview him, too, while he's still alive.
02:11:14.000I'm listening to the witness testimony and trying to figure it out.
02:11:17.000And over the years, you know, I have been all over the world to chase this down.
02:11:22.000In the end, a lot of the answers of the best information was right in Las Vegas because of Bigelow and the organizations that he founded.
02:11:29.000All that expertise came right into my backyard.
02:11:32.000And Harry Reid being the sponsor to the program that became ATIP. I mean, I've been fortunate to be a fly on the wall and to gain their trust.
02:11:43.000You know, it's tricky because so many people find this to be crazy and ridiculous.
02:11:48.000Whenever I do a story not related to UFOs, it's about some crooked politician or cops or something like that, and people are mad at me, which happens often, they bring up UFOs.
02:13:32.000There are still liars and scammers out there who will mislead you, but there is information that can be pursued by reporters, and I think that's made all the difference.
02:13:41.000It made Congress more comfortable with exploring it, and our world is different than it was two and a half years ago.
02:13:48.000Yeah, I think the people that were in control of this stuff also in the 60s and 70s, they're not around anymore.
02:13:54.000So you're dealing with now people that are in government, involved in the military, that grew up in the age of the internet.
02:14:02.000And they have a different perspective about these subjects.
02:15:09.000Well, the other thing that he was talking about that we didn't really get to is that that thing not only was recognizing that he was there, but it was jamming.
02:15:18.000It was doing some sort of active jamming.
02:16:40.000And again, one of the reasons I've become a journalist is so I don't have to do math.
02:16:46.000That's one of the cool things now that's happening is because of the New York Times article, and really because you had Bob on and Commander Favorite, people are talking about this in the zeitgeist.
02:16:55.000I've had more people, serious people, come forward to me in the last year of my life than ever before.
02:17:03.000And it includes soccer moms and just people that just...
02:18:08.000I know George has dealt with this for 30 years.
02:18:09.000It's just new for me that the amount of people coming forward to me and telling me their stories and giving me documents and stuff like that, I got to be careful because a lot of it's got to be bullshit.
02:18:29.000Or do you think it's just crazy people?
02:18:30.000It's crazy people, and some of it might be more organized than that.
02:18:33.000The reach of your show, Joe, when Bob was on there, I know what happened to Jeremy as a result of it.
02:18:40.000I get a little bit of the blowback because people are interested in the topic, but it's amazing how much of an impact it's had to kindle people's interest, not only in that story, but in others and the general topic.
02:19:56.000I mean, there was a lot of naysayers back in the day that were quote-unquote UFO experts that had more traditional ideas of how they traveled here, like Stanton Friedman.
02:20:05.000He had his hot potato theory that they just did it in short bursts, like very fast travel in short bursts that you could tolerate.
02:20:12.000And he didn't believe in Bob Lazar, too, but I always felt like there was some weirdness there.
02:20:19.000UFO guys and researchers are so used to people being full of shit that everyone but them is full of shit.
02:20:28.000And that's what I felt like with Stanton.
02:20:30.000When Stanton would discredit Bob's education pass and all these different things, I'd be like, yeah, but I don't know.
02:21:22.000But again, these UFO experts all believe that everyone else is full of shit.
02:21:27.000I had a 20-year dialogue with Stan Friedman and I respect the hell out of him because he really plodded away and really plowed the ground on the topic in general and tried to make it respectable.
02:21:54.000Did you bring up, like, I'm sure Bob told you the same story he told me about working at Los Alamos Lab and his education at MIT. I did not tell him that story, but it would not have mattered because Stan didn't hear any of that stuff.
02:22:07.000All the things about, how does he go out and know it's going to fly on Wednesday night and take friends out there three weeks in a row and then record it on video?
02:23:59.000That's the difficult thing, is can you accept...
02:24:02.000So if this UFO thing is real and there are these intelligent craft and stuff, can we accept that it is aware of us?
02:24:09.000That it is aware that we have cell phones, that it is aware that we want to monitor it, and if it's highly advanced, wherever it's from, I don't care if it's fucking aliens or, again, North Korea, I don't care who it is, but if they're that advanced, if this technology,
02:24:24.000if there's any weight to it, which there is, then we have to know that they are aware of us looking at them, and that they can...
02:24:33.000Work from a technologically more advanced standpoint, right?
02:25:04.000So, you know, there might be some scary explanations ultimately that they live here, that they can see us and read our thoughts and we're in the shower and we're sleeping and they're watching and they manipulate us on a micro and macro scale that it's their planet,
02:25:21.000not ours, that we're an agricultural product.
02:25:43.000The whole subject is such a weird one because you spend a lot of time on it and you start thinking, am I just wasting my precious energy here on nonsense?
02:25:54.000But then you hear Like, one of the things that Bob told me that was so strange was when we were doing the podcast, he was saying that they think that one of them was really old.
02:26:25.000We can see them right there and not see them on radar.
02:26:29.000We can see them on radar, but they're invisible.
02:26:33.000You can only see them sometimes through thermal.
02:26:35.000So as our military devices get better at detection, UFO sightings are going up.
02:26:41.000And it's because we now can look at them purely through thermal heat signature compared to just flying in— But some of them don't display a thermal heat signature.
02:26:58.000We'd have to— It seems extremely varied.
02:27:01.000You know, is that there's anything you can imagine and more.
02:27:03.000This cop just called me a month ago, and he's not a UFO guy or anything, and he had an encounter, he claims, that was so extraordinarily strange, like non-aerodynamic, something impossible.
02:27:21.000It's just that as we look more, we're seeing more, I think, because our technology is increasing and maybe because our awareness also, we're starting to be more curious, our government and our scientists.
02:27:32.000I think the scientific community should engage this topic.
02:27:37.000Michio Kaku famously recently said the burden of evidence about these not being extraterrestrial craft is now on the scientific community because there's such a weight of evidence now.
02:27:57.000Senator Reid had said that was one of the reasons he started the program, because he's had indications that those other governments are trying to figure out the same stuff that we're figuring out.
02:28:06.000And if some of us can master that technology, the Russians get it, the Chinese get it before we do.
02:29:39.000Well, there's just so many people out there that have an interest in discussing it, too.
02:29:43.000They do these lectures, they tour, and they do these UFO conferences, and they just get together with other bullshit artists, and they make a living.
02:30:39.000Obviously, if you follow the string of evolution, things become more and more complex, and in the case of primates, they become more and more intelligent, more and more capable of manipulating their environment.
02:30:49.000So if we extrapolate and we go a thousand years from now, or we take ourselves to a totally different environment where you don't have the same sort of tooth and claw competition as you have here on Earth.
02:30:58.000I mean, maybe they exist in some sort of a planet with a completely different Ecosphere, a completely different series of metals and different propulsion systems get invented first, long before fire.
02:31:14.000I mean, maybe they're just messing with some stuff that's just very different than us.
02:31:18.000Maybe they live in a more stable environment where they don't have to worry about asteroid impacts, and they've had a steady chain of evolution that's gone on for millions of years.
02:31:56.000We haven't even been alive for a million years.
02:31:58.000Humans haven't been human for a million years.
02:32:00.000So just think what goes on a million years from now.
02:32:04.000The other thing that always trips me out is the archetypal alien.
02:32:07.000When you look at it, it's like if you took...
02:32:11.000Cavemen, or you go back to chimps and cavemen and then humans, you're seeing this pattern of the heads are getting bigger, the muscles are getting smaller, the body's getting less hairy.
02:32:23.000Well, if you keep going, what do you get?
02:32:25.000You get an even bigger head and muscles that are almost non-existent, these like stick bodies, but they still maintain that sort of Iconic primate shape.
02:32:37.000They're kind of primate-like, where they walk on two legs, they have two arms, they vary the amount of digits they have on their fingers, they have heads that have predators' eyes, because the eyes face forward, like ours.
02:32:51.000Like, are we looking at what always happens to life?
02:32:57.000I mean, if life exists the way it exists here and that it always gets to some point where some really intelligent species starts to manipulate its environment and then it starts to look like that, where they develop technology, where they don't need brute force anymore,
02:33:15.000so their bodies slowly but surely shrink and become something that's Just not reliant on a muscle strength, but rather on telekinetic ability, the ability to express themselves without words and thoughts.
02:33:29.000That's one of the things that Elon said when he was talking about his neural link, which is, you know, if there's a fucking alien on Earth, it's that guy, right?
02:33:38.000And he's talking about putting some sort of a device into people's skulls where wires will go to different parts of your brain and you'll be able to greatly Improve your ability to access information.
02:33:53.000It will increase your bandwidth of information substantially, and in his words, you'll be able to talk without using words.
02:34:01.000Now, when you look at aliens, the iconic alien has this slit for a mouth, very little nose, giant eyes, and an enormous head.
02:34:12.000If we allow ourselves to become some hybrid or some symbiotic computer cyborg type thing, isn't that what we're going to look like?
02:34:22.000Maybe those things have weird skin because we realize regular skin kind of sucks.
02:34:32.000They've already figured out a way to make some sort of a...
02:34:35.000A hybrid of spider silk and human skin that would be bulletproof.
02:34:39.000I mean, this is something that they've done research on in a lab.
02:34:43.000I mean, whether or not it actually gets to a human body, you know, who knows.
02:34:46.000But when you look at those things, when you think of that iconic alien shape, it does remind us, or it reminds us of the process of evolution.
02:35:00.000It causes a lot of people to wonder if they are time travelers.
02:35:04.000That's us in the future coming back to see when we screwed up planet Earth or something like that.
02:35:08.000It could be or it just could be their life that's gone further than where we are and they know the process and that's how they were able to confidently manipulate our genetics.
02:35:20.000They're like, well, they're going to get there anyway.
02:35:22.000Let's just step in and jack up the process.
02:36:20.000A couple of months ago, NASA made an announcement that they thought they had found evidence of or indications of a parallel universe.
02:36:27.000And I don't know if you saw that article or not, but they thought that, I don't know if they're theorizing that time Operated in the opposite direction in that parallel universe.
02:37:05.000Yeah, it is the ultimate who knows question, but goddamn, I wish more people from S4 would come forth.
02:37:11.000If Bob really did work with all those people and they really were briefed the same way he was, if we could get more of those people to talk, that would be utterly fascinating.
02:37:21.000Well, your show has a big reach, so maybe this time somebody will hear it and come forward.
02:37:27.000Did anybody ever reach out to you that claimed to also have worked with Bob at S4? A bunch, yeah.
02:38:46.000I got more than two dozen people who have come to me with bits and pieces of the story who had worked out at Area 51 that I confirmed were out there.
02:38:54.000There were security people who had seen a disc under a tarp in a hangar.
02:39:01.000Different people had worked there at different times, 50s, 60s, 70s, and 80s, who had little pieces of the story, not to confirm Bob.
02:39:07.000And then there was one that I pursued.
02:39:09.000I don't know if you want to keep going on this, but I pursued this guy.
02:39:13.000I was trying to find in the early 90s people who were in a position to know about what goes on out there, and I found one.
02:39:20.000And he had been active in the nuclear weapons program.
02:39:23.000He had worked for EG&G. EG&G had the contract to manage Area 51 from the beginning all the way through the first 30 or 40 years of it.
02:39:31.000And so I started basically stalking the guy.
02:39:35.000One of his sons was a state senator, and he had told me, he confided to me, that you've got to ask my dad about UFOs and aliens.
02:39:42.000And another son had been an FBI agent.
02:39:45.000So I stalked the guy, introduced myself.
02:39:47.000There were a couple of public events where I would just show up, and he finally got confident enough in me to invite me to his home.
02:39:55.000And he gets out these scrapbooks, and he's showing me these stories and clippings and photos from the nuclear weapons program.
02:40:02.000And I'm watching and taking notes and stuff.
02:40:04.000And suddenly he closes the book and he goes, you're not here to talk about this nuclear weapons, are you?
02:41:04.000And that they eventually were able to communicate with us and told me that he was going to make a videotape and he was going to make it available so that after he died I could have it.
02:41:14.000Well, suddenly two or three years later he totally changes his story.
02:41:19.000What had happened was there was a congressional investigator.
02:41:22.000His name was Richard D'Amato, and he worked for Senator Robert Byrd.
02:41:28.000And he got onto this UFO story from Whitley Strieber.
02:41:31.000And so he was assigned, find out what the deal is.
02:41:34.000So he went around the country, talked to different researchers, and came to me and wanted to know about Area 51 and Lazar.
02:41:41.000So I told him a story, and I told him about this guy.
02:41:43.000And he got permission for this guy to violate his security oaths and talk to him about it.
02:41:50.000And they had multiple conversations, and they went to the founders of EG&G, the company, and it became a dead end.
02:41:57.000But after that congressional inquiry, this guy completely changed his tune.
02:42:01.000So he made up this story, which is the one that you heard from Annie Jacobson, that what crashed at Roswell was a Russian technology, Nazi technology, flown by the Russians, containing little concentration camp victims who'd been experimented on by Dr. Mengele.
02:42:18.000Completely ridiculous, you know, story.
02:42:50.000And the more fanciful and ridiculous, the better, unfortunately.
02:42:54.000People pay more to hear that and consume it.
02:42:58.000I had an operation one time after the Lazar thing, somebody who was targeting me and he had other people helping him that convinced me that he had worked out there with live aliens.
02:43:07.000And I'm getting letters from his supposedly written by his neighbors.
02:43:11.000Hey, you got to check this guy out, doctor, I'll just say X. He was taken away by armed security in the middle of the night.
02:43:17.000I think he has something to do with aliens.
02:43:20.000From out of the blue, then suddenly I am at a planetarium event, and I'm going to speak about UFOs at some event at this community college, and the guy shows up in a men's room.
02:43:31.000Hey, my name is Dr. X, standing there at the urinal.
02:43:35.000You're not doing a story about me, are you?
02:43:57.000So it's really hard to find credible people.
02:43:59.000I'm super lucky to have George as a mentor because when I go left and I should be going right, he's like, I've already gone left a decade ago, idiot.
02:44:08.000But I don't think a lot of people have somebody like George who can tell you what the bullshit is and prove it to you before you go down the wrong path.
02:44:54.000There's a lot of kooks and crazy people in this field, but mainly there's a lot of curious people who are good intended.
02:44:59.000I'm encouraged by what's happened in the last couple of years.
02:45:01.000I mean, not only the information coming out of the government, because it's a little more solid than what you typically get from UFO people, but also by the new wave of people who are now interested.
02:45:10.000Because of your show, because of what's happened since the New York Times story, there's a whole new generation of people who are suddenly waking up and paying attention to it.
02:45:27.000And ultimately, I hope that those folks, if not me, will be able to get some answers on this someday.
02:45:32.000Well, as preposterous as we would like, if we want to sleep well at night, we'd like to pretend that it's impossible, it doesn't make any sense.
02:45:40.000Just when you look up, you look up, you see infinity.
02:45:45.000You see hundreds of billions of stars just in this galaxy.
02:45:50.000And this is one of hundreds of billions of galaxies.
02:45:54.000Of course there's something out there.
02:46:05.000Whatever happened here that created us is likely to have happened in an infinite number of different forms all throughout the cosmos.
02:46:17.000The real question is, can they come here?
02:46:19.000And the real question is, if they have come here, where, where from, and how?
02:46:26.000And how much interest do they have in us?
02:46:29.000And how long have they been paying attention to us?
02:46:31.000And how much of the ancient scriptures were really about that?
02:46:35.000Like, you know, I mean, everybody shit all over Zechariah Sitchin's interpretations of the Sumerian text, but what if he's right?
02:46:41.000What if the Anunnaki really were creatures from another planet that came here and manipulated primate DNA to create people?
02:46:50.000And when you see those ancient Sumerian clay tablets that were created where you see a large god-like creature with a humanoid monkey creature with a tail sitting on its lap in this tiny thing,
02:47:07.000And the image of the solar system with the correct amount of planets and the sun in the center and all.
02:47:14.000And you realize this was made 6,000 years ago?
02:47:29.000I mean, obviously, we lost some technologies because, I mean, I'm not an architect, but the stones that are pressed together, almost like they're molded all around the world in these, like, pyramid structures and walls.
02:47:39.000You know, it's my understanding that we cannot create that now today as such perfection.
02:47:55.000Well, it's most likely there's been some catastrophes that set humanity back.
02:48:01.000There's a lot of evidence that points to that.
02:48:03.000There's a lot of evidence that points to this period.
02:48:05.000I mean, Graham Hancock and Randall Carlson have done an amazing job of illuminating that.
02:48:09.000On this podcast, if you go back and listen to those episodes, there's real physical evidence of asteroid impacts of meteors hitting Earth somewhere in the neighborhood of 12,000 years ago.
02:48:22.000And that is also when you go to this period of construction.
02:48:29.000There's things that look like they could be older, that are built differently, particularly like in Egypt and a lot of other parts of the world.
02:48:52.000Almost instant changing of the Ice Age, the floods that followed.
02:48:57.000I mean, all the stuff that's detailed in the Bible, like the floods in Noah, that coincides, they believe, with these impacts and that these impacts happened and radically changed the climate, killed an enormous amount of people, probably set technology back thousands of years.
02:49:15.000And then we are the product of this sort of slow reboot.
02:49:19.000Could there have been survivors, a small group of them that survived and now are more advanced than us?
02:50:16.000Maybe if I saw that, what you're describing, I'd love to see a mothership.
02:50:20.000You know, if I ever saw something like that, like Val Kilmer in that movie, The Roller Rink, if I ever saw that, I'd probably just be like, cool.
02:51:08.000I bet it would be really hard to wrap your head around just seeing it.
02:51:12.000Qualified reporters, you know, like policemen, this is one I keep bringing up, this guy, man, his mind, when he saw this impossible thing, and I believe him, he did see what he said.
02:51:23.000He tries to describe it in terms that make sense to him, but he struggles because it was so odd, the craft.
02:51:50.000I've wondered, you know, what would happen if even less than aliens or whoever they are, if somebody were to say, all right, we're going to show you.
02:53:32.000I think if I really saw an actual UFO, I bet your brain would play all kinds of tricks on you in terms of perception and trying to interpret it, especially if it was a very quick thing.
02:54:44.000And almost every time, there's something much more personal, much more strange that occurred almost every time.
02:54:54.000So you have to imagine people are okay with reporting UFOs to you or whatever.
02:54:58.000They can say, I saw what I think of a UFO. But a lot of people aren't telling the full story until you really dig and find out because it makes them uncomfortable.
02:55:09.000So I don't know, man, if any of that's true, you know, if these experiences go beyond the hardware of the saucers, this sort of thing, then it gets more complicated.
02:55:19.000And on that note, gentlemen, we've passed the three-hour mark, believe it or not.