00:00:18.000We'll explain what this is all about, because on the new Spotify podcast, we don't really have an intro the same way the old ones did.
00:00:26.000James, you produced a phenomenal documentary on the phenomenon, on what's going on with UFOs, and I just sent you...
00:00:34.000An article that my friend Sagar sent me today about a photograph, a very clear photograph that they've taken of this triangular UFO. So there's something that we'll be talking about in a little bit.
00:00:58.000That your interest in this came from an experience that you actually had as a child.
00:01:03.000You actually saw a UFO. As a teenager, with two other witnesses, one of the witnesses was half a mile away with binoculars, so I'm pretty sure that that object was real, and it was a classic disk,
00:01:20.000middle of the afternoon, clear sky, absolutely clear.
00:01:24.000At the time, I became convinced that it might be A prototype of something that would be coming out later and, you know, we're here many years later and we still don't have anything like that.
00:01:39.000It was just hovering and it was there.
00:01:42.000And you've been studying this for so long, and this is something you guys talked about in the film, that you were actually the character that the French UFO researcher in Close Encounters of the Third Kind was modeled after.
00:01:56.000Spielberg was intrigued with the idea of a character that was not quite as weird as, you know, the ETs, but was a lot weirder than, you know, the people on the ground in the U.S. trying to make sense of this in the military and so on.
00:02:12.000So he needed this intermediate character.
00:02:15.000He thought, you know, a Frenchman was the right thing to do.
00:02:20.000And so did you talk to him about the film?
00:02:22.000Did you talk to him about when he was putting it together?
00:02:28.000Journalists put us together when about halfway through the final shooting of the film.
00:02:37.000And there were gaps in the movie at that point.
00:02:42.000So we had lunch twice together and it was a lot of fun.
00:02:48.000At the time, he was looking for a transition between the time when they know the big thing is coming, the mothership is coming, and they don't know where.
00:03:00.000And the mothership is sending signals, but they can't decipher it.
00:03:06.000And he said, you know, he had spent the morning at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory and he said he couldn't make any sense of all the mathematics they had.
00:03:16.000And I said, well, maybe you could have, you know, two screens that give you an angle and the angle tells you where the thing is.
00:03:25.000And he said, no, that's too complicated, you know, and takes too long.
00:03:30.000It's got to be just a few minutes in the film.
00:03:33.000And then I thought of a photograph that was on the desk of Dr. Hynek, you know, Dr. J. Hynek, who was the Air Force consultant on UFOs at the time, and I was working with him, building databases and so on.
00:03:47.000And on that photograph, there were three guys, you know, really well-dressed on ladders around a huge...
00:03:57.000Sphere of the Earth in the lobby of some building somewhere with pieces of string that they were putting the string over the Earth.
00:04:07.000And I told Dr. Hynek, I said, Alan, you know, what's the story behind this?
00:04:13.000And he said, well, when the first Sputnik was launched, you know, October 57, nobody had a computer program to compute an orbit.
00:04:23.000But they knew where the Sputnik had been seen.
00:04:27.000Nobody expected the Russians to come up with this, and they needed to know where it was going next.
00:04:33.000So the New York Times called the director of Harvard Observatory, And so they got dressed in a hurry,
00:04:51.000and they were trying to compute the orbit by putting a string around the plane.
00:04:57.000Around the model of the earth in the lobby of Harvard.
00:05:06.000The general says, come on, you know, the geographer who is the interpreter of the French guy says, well, it looks like it's somewhere in Wyoming, you know, but where in Wyoming?
00:06:11.000It is probably the movie that got me most excited about UFOs when I was a kid.
00:06:15.000And I remember thinking, if UFOs were coming here from another planet, one thing that I remember thinking is, why would they even bother talking to the government?
00:06:23.000Like, what do they care who the government is?
00:06:25.000If I was looking at an ant colony, I'm not going to ask the ant colony which one's the elected official that's in charge of all the other ants.
00:06:36.000And I felt like if something was coming here from another planet that was so sophisticated it could either travel from another dimension or travel from another galaxy, why would it care who the president is or who the generals are?
00:06:51.000Not only that, but the witnesses don't talk to the government either.
00:06:55.000By now the witnesses are tired of being ridiculed by scientists and told that those things don't exist.
00:07:05.000So they'll talk to people like you, people like me.
00:07:11.000Because they trust, you know, they trust me.
00:07:14.000And in Silicon Valley, you know, you wouldn't believe the number of people who come to me, you know, including CEOs of companies that I've worked with, who tell me about sightings that people in their family have had or sightings they had,
00:07:29.000including, you know, sightings in Vietnam, for example, and so on, when they were in the military, that have never been reported.
00:07:38.000And the government isn't getting that.
00:07:41.000When you first started studying this, James, when you started studying this phenomenon, when you were thinking that you were going to put together this movie, you've done other documentaries on UFOs.
00:09:26.000And Major Marcel said the debris was strewn over an extremely large area, and it was material that was not of this earth.
00:09:36.000and he described the the material was one one chunk in particular was three to four feet long three feet wide light as a feather you could barely feel it in your hands when you carried it but they couldn't destroy it with a blowtorch they couldn't destroy it with this photo you're showing us right now Jamie is the debris that they threw on the floor that was clearly just aluminum foil and sticks and stuff from a weather balloon That's the fake debris.
00:10:05.000There was a story that came out the first day that said, we've recovered a crashed UFO. And then there was a story that came out the second day, whoops, it was a weather balloon.
00:10:13.000And this was after they had taken the wreckage and they flew it to Wright-Patterson Air Force Base.
00:10:17.000And it wasn't what you would do with wreckage from a weather balloon.
00:10:22.000What they'd done is they'd flown it in two separate jets or planes.
00:10:27.000I don't know if there were any jets back then.
00:10:28.000Two separate planes to make sure that they had at least some of it.
00:10:32.000Like if one of them crashed, they at least had some of this stuff.
00:10:36.000And to this day, there's people that were there that swear that this was something that was from an alien world.
00:10:44.000And then you've got all the debunkers and all the other people that swear that it's nonsense and And that people are just making things up, and they get a lot of attention from this, and so they've been telling these stories for decades, and they might even believe it themselves, but it's all bullshit.
00:11:02.000Well, my approach to that is, you know, no single case.
00:11:06.000And I think the scientists are not completely to blame there.
00:11:10.000No single case can prove either that we're being visited or even that there is a phenomenon here on Earth that we still need to be discovering.
00:11:22.000I've been trained to look for patterns.
00:11:25.000You know, my background is in artificial intelligence and Computer science and you look for patterns, whether it's in medicine, in business, you know, in other fields, in physics.
00:11:37.000And one case, even as good as Roswell is, you know, that doesn't do it.
00:11:43.000So I've been looking for other cases that can reinforce a pattern and reveal, you know, what is really behind it.
00:11:54.000Because the idea that it's just E.T. coming here, that doesn't really answer all the questions we have.
00:12:01.000Well, it seems like there's been so many reports over time, and it's so difficult to find out who's telling the truth and who's not, because many of these are just anecdotal stories.
00:12:10.000They're just eyewitness accounts, and we know people are occasionally or quite often full of shit.
00:12:23.000I wanted to put the cap on Roswell because what people don't realize is that they announced to the world that they recovered a flying saucer.
00:12:31.000There had been a whole massive wave in the 40s and late 40s.
00:12:34.000And this is following the detonation of the first atomic bombs.
00:12:39.000Yeah, the tests, you know, and then the atomic bombs that were dropped on Japan.
00:12:45.000Yeah, so we had the Trinity site, 1945, and then there were two bombs dropped, and that was from the Enola Gay, which was stationed at Roswell, New Mexico, in 47 when this incident occurred.
00:12:57.000They announced and told the truth to the world.
00:13:05.000It was all out in the open with a quick stop in Fort Worth.
00:13:08.000When they got to Fort Worth, they had debris filled in their B-29 bomber.
00:13:14.000Major Marcel gets off the airplane, and General Roger Ramey, there's a flurry of press activity, and he says, keep your mouth shut, let me handle this.
00:13:23.000He grabs some debris from an everyday weather balloon, throws it on the floor.
00:13:28.000And they pose with DuBose, Colonel DuBose, and with Major Marcel.
00:13:35.000General Ramey two out of the three people came clean on camera before they died and said that was a fake press conference that was fake debris what we recovered was the real initial story that came out was true it was not of this world now what is the current understanding of what happened to that debris the You know,
00:14:02.000back in Silicon Valley, there's a group of people who are getting really interested in this because we've got new technology to analyze materials.
00:14:14.000And we've got materials from a number of similar incidents.
00:14:21.000Again, what we're looking for, and it's hard to do.
00:14:26.000It's only now that we've really got equipment, scientific equipment, that can really look at this.
00:15:33.000It was not unique in New Mexico, and now we have samples from Europe, we have samples from South America.
00:15:41.000There are a number of people who have started to look at that.
00:15:45.000There were publications by a professor from Stanford, Professor Sturrock, 30 years ago, about material recovered from Brazil, where, again, the isotopes were measured.
00:15:58.000I'm the guy who, the French volunteered to measure the isotope ratios, and I carried that, you know, that precious little sample to Paris to get it to the people who were doing the experiments.
00:16:16.000Obviously, somebody could take, you know, common elements, refine the isotopes and put them back together.
00:16:26.000Of course, that was done for the atom bomb, you know, between different isotopes of uranium, you know, and you have to differentiate between, you know, what goes into really making the bomb.
00:16:43.000And now you can buy for medicine, for example, you can buy radioisotopes in small quantities, but they cost, you know, an enormous amount for a few grams.
00:16:54.000So if we find that some of those samples have been altered, that's a revolution, because it means that there is somebody somewhere, either on Earth or off planet, who has the technology to do that for a particular purpose.
00:17:35.000We've got instruments now, new instruments that were created by some of the people that I work with that can just do it at the biological level, you know, like almost the level of a few grams or a few milligrams.
00:17:53.000So, we're in the process of doing that.
00:17:55.000And in fact, the book that I'm preparing is going to talk about that.
00:18:01.000The other thing is, you know, where would the big thing go?
00:18:07.000You know, we don't have the big thing.
00:18:11.000Well, you know, after a few years, people talk.
00:18:14.000And again, both in Silicon Valley and other places, Scientists need to talk to each other.
00:18:23.000And I've had discussions with people who handle that material.
00:18:29.000One of them I can tell you about was a very high level engineering manager in a large company that has research labs in Silicon Valley.
00:18:43.000He was asked 30 years ago to look at some material.
00:18:48.000And he described to me what that was, and actually he showed it to me.
00:18:55.000He said it was a matrix of orthosilicates, and he could not understand the deep structure.
00:19:04.000I mean, he could analyze it in his lab.
00:19:07.000He was a man who developed the magnetic coating for discs and tapes.
00:19:15.000So I don't need to tell you how many billions of dollars of business those companies that he worked with, you know, made based on his patents.
00:19:27.000So he had a good lab and he was able to do the analysis.
00:19:32.000He could not understand the deep structure of that material.
00:19:36.000Now, the problem that the people who have those vehicles have is they will, because it's top secret, they have to compartmentalize everything.
00:19:48.000So one company would get the material.
00:19:52.000Another company might get some descriptions of maybe the beings.
00:19:57.000Another company might get something that looks like fiber optics or electronics.
00:20:04.000They wouldn't Only a few people would be able to put all the information together.
00:20:10.000That's not a good way to do research, not a good way to do science.
00:20:14.000We've got to get that stuff to the scientific community and open it up.
00:20:19.000Well, this is what Bob Lazard said about working at Area S4, that that was the problem they were having.
00:20:25.000One group was working on propulsion, the other group was working on metallurgy.
00:20:29.000But this material that this gentleman had seen where he couldn't identify the structure, what was that and where was it from?
00:20:42.000But they had, and he had gotten it through what method?
00:20:47.000He had been asked on a secret project to do the analysis.
00:20:53.000So this had been something the government had brought to him?
00:20:55.000He had a lab that was unique in the United States.
00:20:58.000And, you know, he was the appropriate guy.
00:21:02.000Is it possible that this could have been some material that was created by a foreign government that has an extremely advanced understanding of these materials?
00:21:14.000If it had been, that material would have been used by now.
00:21:18.000And we've never seen that material again.
00:21:21.000And what year was this, when he did the study?
00:21:58.000I had another conversation with a military man who is retired now who told me that he was brought in to a large hangar where there were pieces of things that looked like a vehicle and there was a wing.
00:22:18.000That would have been, you know, the size of this table.
00:22:25.000It was, again, very light, you know, like what James was saying about Roswell, extremely light material that was very, very strong.
00:22:34.000Well, still today we don't have anything like that.
00:22:38.000We've got fancy titanium things and so on, but he knew what technology went into our advanced aircraft.
00:22:47.000He was with the Air Force and he couldn't believe that he could lift that entire metal surface with one hand.
00:22:56.000So, what is the current speculation on where the wreckage from Roswell went?
00:23:00.000Like, as far as people know, people do talk, like, clearly if there was some material that was recovered that was from an alien spacecraft, it must be somewhere.
00:23:21.000If you look at other projects that we know now how they were handled, like the submarine, the Russian submarine that was recovered.
00:23:33.000And it would go to different places because you'd send different parts to the best experts, absolutely the best world experts in those people you already have under contract.
00:23:49.000And you might not tell them, you know, where it comes from.
00:23:53.000You might tell them this is something, you know, one of our guys got this out of Czechoslovakia, you know, and we think it's Russian stuff from a MiG, you know, and why don't you analyze it?
00:24:06.000They wouldn't necessarily tell you that it comes from a UFO, whatever UFOs are.
00:24:42.000In the 40s, there were people working on advanced materials for ultralight aircraft, for rockets.
00:24:55.000You know, the transistor, people say, look at the transistor, we must have gotten this from the aliens.
00:25:01.000Well, the patent for the transistor is a German patent from 1934. You know, the German scientist He discovered the transistor effect and he described it.
00:25:17.000I mean, there was no electronics in 1934. So nobody really had any need for it.
00:25:22.000And then the electronics was in glass tubes and so on and so on.
00:25:26.000So that was rediscovered at Bell Labs by the people who patented the transistor in the US. That was one of the big UFO conspiracy theories, was that some of the technology that was recovered from Roswell was used and back-engineered to create transistors.
00:25:49.000And there was a company called the American Computer Company that had a whole website dedicated to explaining where some of the technology that we currently use came from.
00:25:59.000They were all in on this conspiracy that it came from Roswell.
00:26:04.000I don't think you would find too many people in Silicon Valley who would believe that because some of the people from Bell Labs came west and some of them are still alive and they would tell you how it happened.
00:26:19.000And when you look at the old films, the old movies from Bell Labs, You know, you can see what they were doing, and it's kind of laughable.
00:26:29.000I mean, it's, you know, high school physics, you know, hooking up the thing with big wires and so on.
00:26:35.000This was not really advanced stuff, but they understood the transistor effect, which was known since the 30s.
00:27:12.000Colonel Corso, who was someone I respect and admire, revealed that he was in charge for the army.
00:27:25.000Of getting, he got a lot of, and somebody gave him a, you know, a cardboard box, literally, full of stuff that came from places like Roswell.
00:27:52.000So, I spent two days with him, thanks to Mr. Bigelow.
00:27:56.000You know, we brought him to Las Vegas to, you know, talk to the science board of Bigelow Aerospace.
00:28:07.000And then I had some private conversations with him.
00:28:10.000About some other things that were not in his book.
00:28:14.000But the fiber, you know, I told him frankly, you know, fibers, glass fibers were known before World War II. People used them in lab work and so on.
00:29:19.000What he said to me, and I'm not saying this is true or not true, but what he said to me, Was that they were shocked at the lack of provisions on the craft, that the bodies had no reproductive organs, slits for mouths, no vocal cords.
00:29:33.000There were these little pen-like things that later turned out to be lasers.
00:29:38.000And there was this filament stringy stuff that was later to be determined to be fiber optics.
00:29:44.000And that the material had this, you could crumple it up with light as a feather, and then it would regain its original form.
00:30:25.000And there were parts that were missing and parts that he had told me.
00:30:30.000Fortunately, you know, I can testify to what he told me.
00:30:33.000But the, you know, a lot of what he knew wasn't in the book that was published in the US. It's in books that were published in other languages, you know, thanks to Paola Harris, who preserved all that.
00:30:49.000But there was, you know, still at that stage, you know, there was some, you know, some tricks being played.
00:31:42.000There are secrets that are under the control of the president.
00:31:47.000There are secrets that are under the control of the State Department that have to do with foreign intelligence that don't go through the same channels.
00:31:57.000And then there are the atomic secrets.
00:32:01.000The clearances for, you know, over the years I've occasionally been cleared.
00:32:07.000I was cleared for the bass project under Mr. Bigelow.
00:32:19.000The clearances for atomic secrets are the P clearances, the Q clearances, the R clearances.
00:32:26.000They are completely segregated from the kind of clearances that we had as part of the The Bass Project or the ATIP Project.
00:32:37.000So those people would not have been cleared for some of the scientific information.
00:32:44.000And I think we're getting to the point where we need to Somebody needs to open up the doors and the windows and get the scientific community involved.
00:32:56.000Well, it does seem like there's more openness now from the penthouse, right?
00:33:01.000There was the one person who worked at the Pentagon that was saying that They've recovered crafts that are off-world vehicles, not from this earth.
00:33:15.000And then these photos that supposedly exist now from this new article that's out that are top secret, but people are trying to get these photographs released to the general public that show this triangular UFO. But just these kind of statements and just the release of the Go Fast video and the other videos from the Gimbal video that show these vehicles that are being observed by these fighter jet pilots that are watching
00:33:45.000these things in real time going, holy shit, what is that?
00:33:49.000And you get to hear their words, you get to see the video, you see the actual object jetting across the surface of the ocean and And they don't know what it is, and they're trying to figure it out while they're watching it.
00:36:11.000The report would probably not have come out except that there were a number of people on the ground who saw this happen, saw the whole thing.
00:36:20.000And there was a gendarme, you know, who was French police, a branch of, you know, parallel to the French police, who wrote a report and that report was public.
00:36:31.000So they interviewed, they found the pilot, they interviewed him, I mean, there is no question that happened.
00:36:38.000And this was 1978. So, I mean, what else is new?
00:36:59.000But when you have the pilots themselves and the footage and the instrumentation and the radar, I mean, that thing was tracked on radar that saw the whole thing, you know.
00:37:11.000You don't really do that to a nuclear bomber.
00:37:17.000Yeah, so this is a breaking story and former Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense for Intelligence, Christopher Mellon, literally sent this to me about 15 minutes ago and he wanted me to read it verbatim.
00:37:32.000In the last 48 hours, the public has learned of two stunning incidents captured on film.
00:37:39.000by US Navy carrier pilots earlier this year.
00:37:43.000One of the cases features a photo of a bizarre flying sphere and a black cube inside that is identical to dozens of other reports by Navy pilots.
00:37:55.000These strange objects have been shadowing East Coast Naval Ops since 2015. They sometimes maneuver in formation and have occasionally been reported achieving supersonic speeds.
00:38:07.000The other incident produced a stunning detailed photograph of a massive triangular shaped vehicle that emerged from the ocean and flew vertically straight up and out of sight just past a Navy F-18 operating off the US aircraft carrier.
00:38:25.000These iPhone photos taken by the pilots should be released to the public as there are no sources and methods to protect and the national security benefits of raising awareness regarding this issue vastly outweigh any conceivable benefit from concealing the information.
00:38:44.000It is hard to believe that in the face of such radical and incredible technology within our vast Defense Department, we only have a so-called task force consisting of two individuals with no budget who are still being stiff-armed for access to relevant and timely information by the Air Force and other security organizations.
00:39:07.000By comparison, 60 years ago in response to Sputnik, America entered the space race, which led to landing on the moon.
00:39:15.000Our government needs to wake up and address the far greater technology gap that these and many other incidents are revealing.
00:39:22.000There is obviously a glaring strategic mismatch between the current task force and the technology that has been identified.
00:40:19.000He knows the person, but he said that the government is not wanting them released, and he feels that we have a right to these photographs.
00:40:26.000And there's video that came with this story as well.
00:40:28.000Well, remember, this comes from the very guy who was strategic, Christopher Mellon, in getting those videotaped evidence from the cockpits of those F-18 fighter jets off the East Coast as well as off the West Coast in 2004, 2015, and ended up with that big story on the front page of the New York Times in 2017. Yeah,
00:40:52.000Because if you went to like 2004 when this all happened, no one was really talking about UFOs in a serious manner.
00:41:03.000It was still something that would be mocked and ridiculed.
00:41:06.000But to have it on the front page of the New York Times and to have this spokesperson for the Pentagon say that they've recovered off-world vehicles Not from this earth.
00:41:22.000Even though it doesn't receive that much public attention because it's all happening during a pandemic and everyone's just...
00:41:30.000And also the news cycle today is so bizarre.
00:41:33.000Something gets into the news cycle and then it's gone tomorrow because of a new scandal or people find out Ellen's mean or whatever it is.
00:41:39.000There's always something new that's coming out.
00:41:41.000And these things though, it seems to be there's more of them and more of them coming out.
00:41:47.000And with each new story that comes out, people feel more emboldened to tell their story.
00:41:52.000You know, I think personally everything changed in December of 2017 when that page, a front page of the New York Times revealed that secret ATIP program.
00:42:02.000And I know personally, because I've gotten ridiculed for decades for the work I do, a lot less so recently, people are suddenly raising their eyebrow going, wow, there's clearly something more to this than just, you know, radar weather balloons and misidentified aircraft.
00:42:18.000Jamie, pull up the video that's in that article.
00:42:36.000What's interesting too is that, okay, this is the one that I didn't see, but that this thing, the way it moves and behaves, the one that's from, I guess it was from the 94 one.
00:43:50.000With no wings, no visible means of propulsion, the ability to hover, accelerate from a standstill to out of sight in the blink of an eye, right angle turns at high speed, fly rings around our fastest jets.
00:44:03.000That is the technology that cannot be confused or explained away as something conventional.
00:44:09.000So anytime you see an object like we're looking at here, if it performs or exhibits at that technology, maybe it shoots off at a high rate of speed, does a right angle turn at high speeds, no wings, no tail, no propulsion, no sonic boom, almost no sound,
00:44:34.000But these objects, also one of the weird things is it moves around the same way Commander Fravor described that thing moving around that was hovering over the ocean.
00:44:44.000That it kind of darts around left and right, right and left, almost like it's just not connected to whatever our atmosphere is.
00:44:55.000It's like it's moving in this weird zigzag sort of a way.
00:45:43.000You know, that was one of the more startling...
00:45:48.000One of the moments of producing the film The Phenomenon for me was when I met with Senator Harry Reid, who spearheaded the AATIP program, the Advanced Aerospace Threat Identification Program that wound up on the front page of the New York Times.
00:46:00.000I wasn't quite sure when I met with him where his comfort zone was, and so I was really kind of cautious for the first half an hour of the interview.
00:46:07.000But then I started, we started to relax and get more comfortable with each other.
00:46:12.000And I decided to kind of push it a little bit.
00:46:14.000And I said, Hey, Senator, I met with Gordon Cooper, who later became Mercury astronaut.
00:46:23.000Who told me on camera that there was a landing incident that took place at Edwards Air Force Base circa 1957, where they happened to have a camera crew out near the dry lake bed capturing the installation of a new landing facility for F-86 fighter jets.
00:46:37.000And it was broad daylight, and all of a sudden this disk appears out of nowhere, and the camera crew turned their cameras on it, and they filmed the landing of this flying saucer on the dry lake bed at Edwards Air Force Base.
00:46:50.000And I'm telling the story to Senator Reid, thinking, you know, I don't know how he's going to react, but this is what I have him on camera.
00:46:58.000And I said he has the film footage developed.
00:47:35.000And he kind of pauses and he picks up his water bottle and he drinks a sip of water and that moment seemed like an hour, but it was probably just a second or two.
00:47:42.000And he puts his water bottle down and he says, I'm saying that most of the evidence hasn't seen the light of day.
00:47:50.000That for me was such a powerful moment because I'm going, look at who this is coming from.
00:47:55.000This is the former head of, you know, Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid saying that the vast majority of evidence hasn't seen the light of day.
00:48:02.000And if the President of the United States can't get access to it, as I found out when I interviewed all the people around President Clinton, who can?
00:48:11.000Who has the authority to have this stuff released?
00:48:14.000And that's something that I would love to know.
00:48:21.000Someone in some position of government or some intelligence agency, someone in the Pentagon, someone or some group at the highest level of clearance has access to this information and knows about it.
00:48:36.000Senator Reid said they uncovered all this stuff during the program, and he said the level of resistance that he got from the intelligence agencies was insane.
00:48:44.000Like, I mean, they did not want this project going forward at the Pentagon.
00:48:48.000But they pushed, and they pushed, and they pushed, and they got it through.
00:48:51.000It started in 2007. It went all the way up until it ended up on the front page of the New York Times in 2017. And of course, now we know that there's another project.
00:48:58.000But Jacques, do you know who has the authority to release this stuff to the general public?
00:49:32.000Well, now, you know, there are physicians in the...
00:49:36.000You know, with clearances, who have tried to get that information.
00:49:42.000And to my knowledge, because they don't need to tell me everything, but if there was...
00:49:53.000You know, there is material evidence, like the kind of thing I've got, okay, that witnesses have given to me, you know, that I went out and dug it up, okay, so I know where it comes from.
00:50:05.000But if we found that it was really very strange, even beyond our ability to manipulate the isotopes, that still doesn't prove That there isn't somebody who is smarter than we are somewhere on Earth making that stuff.
00:50:21.000Okay, so I still couldn't stand, you know, at the Academy of Sciences and say, look, this proves it.
00:50:29.000But if we have bodies I would think that if they have a different structure from any organism that we know from biology on Earth, I mean, I would have to think that would be a revolution.
00:51:13.000Yeah, like the African landing case in Zimbabwe in 1994. That is a crazy part of your documentary because you see these children that are going to school in Africa.
00:51:23.000This thing lands and then they draw pictures of it.
00:51:28.000The children are all consistent and then 20 years later they all meet and talk about it again and now when people lie A lot of times when people lie, when they're making up a crazy story like being abducted by a UFO, they want to be special.
00:52:14.000I was doing my first documentary back in 1997 when I was just naive enough to think I can get an interview with Steven Spielberg.
00:52:22.000We had a mutual friend involved, this woman Janet, and she gets back to me and she's like, yeah, so Spielberg's definitely not going to meet with you, but he knows you're working on this UFO documentary.
00:52:32.000He thinks you should look into this landing case that happened in Africa at the school.
00:52:36.000And I said to myself at the time, and remind you guys that I was making a film on UFOs, and I dismissed it so quickly because I thought...
00:52:45.000There's no way that a mass landing with the sheer volume of eyewitness testimony at a school in broad daylight could happen and the whole world not know about it.
00:52:57.000So I just walked away from that story for about ten years.
00:52:59.000Ten years later, I'm doing an event at the National Press Club with Leslie Kane, who was part of the article in the New York Times that came out in 2017. And she introduced me to this guy, Randall Nickerson.
00:53:13.000And she's like, oh, he's working on this landing case in Africa.
00:53:16.000Long story short, he's working on a film now, I think it's coming out next year, specifically on just that case.
00:53:35.000I licensed some of the footage that Dr. John Mack, the Harvard psychiatrist that came and interviewed the school children on camera within a week of it happening.
00:53:43.000He unfortunately looked the wrong way in London, got run down by a car and died.
00:53:47.000So I contacted the Institute with the help of Randall Nickerson.
00:53:55.000We flew them in from all different corners of the world, brought them together.
00:53:59.000A lot of them were standing right next to each other.
00:54:00.000They came face to face, and one of the things I realized was that there were roughly 100 kids in the playground, broad daylight, aerial school, Rue Zimbabwe, 1994, and they got some of them within arm's length of these beings and brought these witnesses together for the first time in 20 years,
00:54:20.000and a lot of them hadn't even told their significant others.
00:54:24.000Just because they said they were tired of having to defend this.
00:54:27.000And I myself didn't believe it when I first heard about it back in 1997. And that segment of the film is the most, in my opinion, is the most powerful segment.
00:54:54.000That case is absolute, and it was witnessed by lots of other people in and around the area for several days before it chose a school to land.
00:55:03.000It's so compelling because the children are all clearly...
00:55:07.000So as they're adults later, they're all talking about this moment and it's like they had a religious experience together.
00:55:15.000They're all sharing it and talking about it and you can tell it's a deeply moving experience.
00:55:20.000If they were actors, they wouldn't have been able to do such a good job.
00:55:25.000Because to convey the reality of that moment to them, to...
00:55:30.000To be able to have this interpretation of this event where they're all consistent in the story and they're all clearly still shook by this moment.
00:55:42.000It's really interesting because if you had that scene in a movie, it would take like a really good actor to pull it off.
00:55:50.000And they'd probably need multiple takes.
00:55:51.000They'd probably want to get the best one.
00:55:53.000But those kids, the way they were talking about it and the way they were drawing it, you're like...
00:55:57.000Wow, it really does seem like something happened to them.
00:55:59.000I know how credible the testimony of the children is because my partner, Rebecca, she's never had much of an interest in what I do, making documentaries on UFOs.
00:56:09.000I do other things as well, but when I was reviewing in the studio the archival interview of the children, she just dropped off a cup of coffee and she stopped and went, Oh my God, those children are not lying.
00:56:23.000This is the most amazing thing I've ever seen.
00:56:25.000Because look, I ask your audience to don't take it from me.
00:56:29.000Just suspend judgment for a moment and imagine, hypothetically, if...
00:56:36.000A UFO or several UFOs landed at a school in broad daylight in Rua, Zimbabwe, Africa, and interacted telepathically with nearly 100 schoolchildren.
00:56:48.000Not all of them had telepathic, but seeing the incident.
00:56:52.000How significant of a story would you give that?
00:56:54.000Well, not only that, they had the same message.
00:57:09.000You know, I mean, maybe they just thought they were adults because they were the same size as the aliens.
00:57:14.000I mean, do you think they knew that they were children?
00:57:16.000Do you think they understood that it was a school?
00:57:18.000I mean, this is all speculation, right?
00:57:19.000Yeah, but no, I definitely had to ask myself, look, during the production of the film, Paula Harris actually turned me on to another landing case that happened in Australia in 1966. At a school, and this time there were roughly 300 witnesses that saw a disc land right outside a playground in Australia.
00:57:39.000And we went to Australia and investigated that case, went to the landing site, talked to eyewitness testimony, people that jumped the fence at the school playground, and ran over to where this thing landed.
00:57:49.000And then we even interviewed a guy who snapped a photograph of a disc, a Polaroid, back in 1966, two days prior to the incident.
00:58:00.000Probably that we have photographic evidence, we have eyewitness testimony, and for the first time we've got testimony from a science teacher.
00:58:08.000So why do these things land at schools?
00:58:12.000It seems like, and I'm just totally speculating here, but it seems like if I were going to do that, it seems like a pretty benign environment.
00:58:21.000We've had testimony from military guys that we take a fairly hostile position towards things that penetrate sensitive military installations.
00:58:30.000And, you know, so maybe, I'm just saying maybe, maybe...
00:59:01.000This should not be looked at specifically as a threat.
00:59:06.000I mean, with the phenomena that we observe, I mean, if they wanted to blow up those F-18s, they could do it, okay?
00:59:15.000Obviously, that's not what it's all about.
00:59:18.000And this idea of just labeling it all as a threat because it's unknown, that's a wrong idea.
00:59:26.000Ninety percent of the information comes from the public, comes from children, and very, very little of it is made up.
00:59:34.000In France, the data we get at the French Space Agency comes through channels where if people reported something that's found to be untrue, they are going to be called by the police.
00:59:49.000And they may have some penalties associated with that.
00:59:54.000Now you said that they can blow them up, but there's never been any evidence of a UFO attacking anything, right?
01:00:13.000I went to Brazil four times, and I got to know Brazil and the data there pretty well.
01:00:21.000And I spoke to people in the armed forces, people in the Brazilian Air Force, and the police.
01:00:29.000There have been a number of cases where people died, where witnesses died, and also cases where witnesses were chased I think?
01:01:03.000Which means it's not just light, it's something else.
01:01:07.000And also they will pin you to a hammock, for example.
01:01:12.000Some of the people who are asleep in a hammock, they wake up and they see this light, and the light comes down and pins them to the bed or to the hammock.
01:01:25.000And I've published pictures of injuries that people sustained as a result of those beams.
01:01:32.000So, you know, this is at least a demonstration of, you know, of a power that, number one, we don't quite understand the technology, and number two, we don't understand why that is.
01:01:48.000And you're of the opinion that these things might not be from another planet, that it could be they're interdimensional.
01:01:56.000So, yes, I'm amazed that, you know, I mean, in the 50s and 60s, There was all that science fiction about, you know, aliens from other planets and so on, all these movies.
01:02:11.000So that was, okay, and frankly when I started looking at the statistics, trying to make sense, trying to build those databases, Do AI on top of it.
01:02:23.000I was looking for, you know, ET extraterrestrials.
01:02:27.000Now, we've got so much more data that contradicts that.
01:02:31.000Things coming through the wall of a bedroom, okay, as a light, and the light turns into something else, and it has information in it, or it turns into something physical.
01:02:47.000I mean, these are not just vehicles that come from somewhere else.
01:02:51.000So there are a number of contradictions in there.
01:02:54.000It could be there's a number of different non-related phenomena.
01:02:58.000Well, you know, to some extent, I mean, we keep saying that the scientists are skeptical and so on, but if you look at physics today, I mean, People will tell you there's probably more than, there must be more than four dimensions,
01:03:29.000Theories that are published in physics journals about multiple universes, about universes interpenetrating each other, maybe channels between those universes.
01:03:41.000There could be another universe with a room like this five minutes ahead of us.
01:03:57.000And physics today authorizes us to think about those things.
01:04:04.000Now, they think about those things not because of UFOs.
01:04:08.000They consider it because it makes sense in the theories they have to build to explain what they see in the lab, okay?
01:04:17.000In the particle labs, in the Accelerators and detecting all these other layers of matter, of nature.
01:04:27.000But it implies that this isn't just, you know, not only the other planet, but this isn't the only universe.
01:04:37.000I was going to say, Jacques, one of the assets that Jacques brought to this film, The Phenomenon, and he became involved through Lee Spiegel, and you could talk in a minute about your reluctance to get involved.
01:04:51.000Initially, Jacques was like, okay, well, I'll participate in just this one little section.
01:04:55.000And eventually I lured Jacques out to the studio and we were editing the film at the end of this dirt road in a very remote area.
01:05:01.000We had a place that had no running water, no internet, no toilet.
01:05:05.000Long story, I was going to get a better space but I just couldn't find one and we just got so much work done in this space I decided to just edit the whole movie here.
01:05:14.000It was a little cabin in the woods on the California coast.
01:05:18.000It was gorgeous, full of flowers and so on, but no facilities.
01:05:38.000And one of the first cases I think that you got involved with, speaking of beans, was Socorro, New Mexico, that involved a police officer in April of 1964. This is considered to be the most well-documented close encounter of the third kind.
01:05:54.000That's when the witness described seeing beans associated with the craft in U.S. history.
01:06:00.000Turns out, when Jacques found out that I'd already spent five years investigating this case, I interviewed the wife, I interviewed his co-workers, I interviewed his son, his daughter, and I went to the National Archives, and I got all these new documents, I revealed some of them in the movie.
01:06:15.000Jacques said to me, and I showed him this stuff, he said, my gosh, I can't believe you're doing this case.
01:06:21.000He said, I was at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base in April of 1964 with Dr. Hynek.
01:06:59.000And so, I told Alan, you know, let me, you know, look really carefully at the Air Force files, and you've got to have close encounter cases.
01:07:12.000In those days, we were calling them landing cases, because there were traces on the ground, and that's where you could do some physics, you know.
01:07:36.000And he said, no, well, we don't have those kinds of cases.
01:07:40.000So I convinced him to let me look at the files.
01:07:45.000And he said, look, I'm going to Wright-Patterson, you know, where Project Blue Book was headquartered, at the Foreign Technology Division, which is an intelligence branch of the Air Force.
01:08:59.000And what frustrated the Air Force was that, you know, Carl Sagan never went there.
01:09:05.000All these scientists who said that, who poo-pooed the whole idea of UFOs, they never went to look at the archives.
01:09:13.000They never looked at the testimonies, at the wires, at the teletypes, you know.
01:09:18.000We talked about Carl Sagan last night and you felt that Carl Sagan was pressured by ridicule and that some of the things that he had speculated that actually turned out to be true like water on the moon and possibly even some form of life that existed in the past or currently on Mars.
01:09:38.000They had interesting discussions between Heineken and Sagan.
01:09:42.000Hynek, you know, kept talking about the Air Force files and Sagan said, you know, if we've got NORAD, NORAD looks at everything with radar covering the United States, you know, completely.
01:09:58.000So if there are these things, NORAD must be detecting them.
01:10:03.000So Hynek said, well, you know, go ask them.
01:10:06.000So Sagan went to NORAD, and he went to, you know, Mountain, where the headquarters are in the control system, Cheyenne Mountain.
01:10:20.000And he explained that, you know, I understand you guys must have UFOs.
01:11:20.000Well, that means that that's what they asked.
01:11:23.000He said, look, we're here to look for incoming trajectories of ballistic missiles from Russia.
01:11:31.000So if there is one data point, The system doesn't care.
01:11:36.000If there are two data points, the system starts looking.
01:11:39.000If there is a third one, it computes a trajectory.
01:11:43.000If the trajectory looks like an incoming thing, for example, from Alaska over towards Montana, We're going to alert the fighters.
01:11:54.000Otherwise, it could be a flock of birds, it could be a weather balloon, it could be anything else.
01:12:02.000We're not paid to try 10,000 other things.
01:12:06.000We're here to defend the United States.
01:12:10.000Well, so who is looking at the other 10,000?
01:12:14.000Well, that's one thing I was going to say is that you said earlier that you felt that Project Blue Book was fairly transparent, but one of the things that I uncovered when I was investigating this landing case, which was a close encounter of the third kind, witnessed by a police officer in Socorro, New Mexico, 1964,
01:12:29.000was that the military was on scene within less than an hour.
01:12:34.000It was Richard T. Holder from White Sands, Holloman Air Force Base area, He documented the landing prints from the landing gear of the spaceship, the so-called craft.
01:12:50.000He documents the footprints that corresponded to exactly where the eyewitness reported, the on-duty police officer, where he saw these little childlike beings.
01:13:02.000They documented all this, and yet they downplayed that aspect of the phenomenon, of the encounter, so much.
01:13:09.000And I know that because Lonnie Zamora, the police officer, said he was told not to talk about it.
01:13:13.000Because it's one thing to explain away an unidentified craft.
01:13:17.000It's another thing to have to explain away beings on the ground.
01:13:21.000And how did they describe these beings?
01:14:11.000They were bigger heads, but the description of the beans was that...
01:14:15.000There was only a couple of newspaper articles that came out regarding the Beans because the Air Force wanted to really downplay the fact that it was a close encounter with the third kind.
01:14:25.000But that aspect of the encounter leaked out before the military got there to the local newspapers.
01:14:33.000Officer Lonnie Zamora had cut out those articles describing his description of the beans, and he kept them in a black duffel bag, which I discovered at his home, and I feature those as well in the film.
01:14:44.000But again, then you had congressional hearings two years later where you had people at Project Blue Book, Quintanilla, denying the fact that there was any substantial evidence that would prove we're not alone.
01:14:58.000And Dr. Hynek Tow the party line during his entire time.
01:15:02.000But then afterwards, he left in 1969, the Air Force, and he founded CUFOS, which basically proves that he did a 180, and he believed that we were not alone.
01:15:12.000Well, he was waiting for a case like that.
01:15:28.000You know, I believe those reports, I believe we have the same thing in the US. I convinced him of that.
01:15:34.000But he was waiting for a case where he could convince Sagan and Menzel and, you know, Dr. Menzel at Harvard and his colleagues in science, because he knew those guys.
01:15:48.000And they would believe Quintanilla rather than believing Hynek.
01:15:52.000And, you know, the problem at Socorro was there was only one witness.
01:15:56.000One witness that saw the beans, but there are a number of witnesses that saw the craft.
01:17:01.000Richard T. Holder got to the site, told Lonnie to put a different symbol because they could quickly identify a hoaxster if they were able to.
01:17:11.000We found the real symbol at the National Archives that was written in Dr. Hynek's own handwriting, which I shared with you, which is an inverted V, let's say an A, two lines here and one line across the top.
01:17:22.000It's an A. It's featured in the movie.
01:17:36.000He said, look, let's change the symbol.
01:17:39.000That way, if there's anybody else claims to have seen this thing and they say, yeah, that's the symbol, we'll be able to quickly identify a hoaxer.
01:19:04.000Then there was another landing case that happened in 66 in Michigan.
01:19:07.000So two years after the landing case in Socorro and this one was witnessed by police officers and a whole bunch of people in a college and reporters.
01:19:14.000That was the infamous Michigan landing.
01:19:17.000And Dr. Hynek had a huge press conference and explained it as swamp gas.
01:19:23.000He later said it was one of his biggest regrets.
01:19:26.000And then Congressman Gerald Ford, who became president of the United States, was like so up in arms about this that he was screaming from the hilltops, you know, how could you?
01:19:43.000He said he was so angry at the Air Force for dismissing it as swamp gas that he pushed for congressional hearings, which we had congressional hearings.
01:19:54.000This is something we realized in the edit studio.
01:19:56.000Right at the end of the hearings, the congressional hearings in 1966 in Washington, D.C., as they were departing the building from those hearings, A flying saucer landed at a school in Australia on the other side of the world.
01:20:10.000That was happening as they were walking out of the building.
01:20:16.000Does it appear that these things happen in clusters?
01:20:22.000Yeah, and, you know, Socorro happened the day after Heineck and I left the Air Force Base in Dayton, Wright-Patterson.
01:20:36.000We were there for essentially three days.
01:20:39.000Spent a whole day in the vault, you know, looking at the files and so on.
01:20:44.000And then after that, we flew back, you know, both of us flew back to Chicago.
01:20:53.000And next day, phone call from Quintanilla to Hynek, how soon can you be in New Mexico?
01:21:02.000And he said, why would I go to New Mexico?
01:21:04.000He said, because something landed in Socorro, and you were there.
01:21:08.000It landed when, it happened just when we were leaving the Air Force Base.
01:21:14.000And, I mean, there is nothing you can do about that.
01:21:18.000I mean, those are coincidences, you know, information coincidences that just happened.
01:21:24.000I would love to take this opportunity to any of your audience out there.
01:21:28.000I came across a memos when I was at the National Archives regarding Quintanilla talking to Hynek and Quintanilla was very concerned about a film crew that arrived In Socorro, New Mexico, shortly after the incident, and they didn't really want him talking,
01:21:44.000but he participated with the film crew, and he even said to Hynek in this memo, he goes, it would be too obvious if I show up there, but why don't you be passing through to Hynek in 1964-65 and just find out what the hell is going on?
01:21:57.000Why is this police officer, as we told him not to talk about it, participating with the film crew?
01:22:28.000Well, you found some incredible footage, like the UN testimony footage.
01:22:34.000And I lived through that with him watching, you know, what James was doing to try to, by any means, you know, get to the real actual footage and that's incredible.
01:22:47.000My sister, Kelly Fox, worked as an archivist for several years, digging up never-before-seen archival footage.
01:22:54.000And one of them, the very man, Lee Spiegel, who put on the 1978 United Nations event with you and Hynek and Coyne and a handful of others, the footage has never seen the light of day.
01:26:10.000And she wanted to do sort of an experiment.
01:26:12.000So they had some land close to a big lake where they had a little summer place.
01:26:20.000And so Heine couldn't go there and asked me to go there.
01:26:25.000And Betty and Barney were there and Dr. Simon, who was the psychiatrist from Boston, who did the hypnosis of both of them separately and really broke the case,
01:26:44.000And so we drew a big, you know, circle in the grass.
01:26:50.000And I had a telescope, a little telescope with me.
01:26:55.000I had a little table set up and spent the night there waiting for UFOs and fighting mosquitoes because, you know, the time of year in New England, you're going to get mosquitoes.
01:27:07.000We didn't get any aliens, but we had a lot of time To talk and the next day, spend the next day with Betty and Barney and went through the whole thing.
01:28:06.000He wasn't just some ufologist who decided to hypnotize people, which is very harmful, by the way.
01:28:14.000I don't know why people allow that to happen to them.
01:28:17.000So I took him aside and I said, Doctor, if I had been sitting there in their car on the back seat and here is Barney driving and Betty next to him and they see that,
01:28:34.000would I have seen the car stop and all these little beings and the UFO stopping them on the road and dragging them out?
01:28:46.000And he said, I have no way of answering that.
01:28:49.000I can tell you that by the hypnosis that my patients are telling the truth as they experienced it.
01:29:01.000I cannot tell you what we would have seen if you and I had been there.
01:34:13.000Initially, he got interested because there were all these books about hypnosis and so on.
01:34:22.000Done by amateurs, people who are not trained in hypnosis.
01:34:27.000And he started sort of retraining himself to do hypnosis.
01:34:32.000I asked him if he had used hypnosis in his practice as a psychiatrist, and he said no.
01:34:39.000He said he had a course in hypnosis of one week, but he never really practiced it.
01:34:46.000He relearned hypnosis With some of the ufologists who were hypnotizing people.
01:34:54.000And then gradually found that what they did was very shoddy and was really completely unscientific.
01:35:02.000I mean, there were some of those books, they were planting the idea, you know, James, tell me about the blue alien you saw yesterday at 235 people.
01:35:15.000And you don't, if you do hypnosis, you don't lead the witness, you don't do that.
01:35:20.000So he got disgusted with that and redid it, started to redo it his way.
01:35:26.000And unfortunately, that's when he was killed.
01:35:29.000What was his initial idea about what was going on?
01:35:34.000Initially, he bought the idea that these are aliens from somewhere.
01:36:17.000Maybe I influenced him a little bit, but he was coming to my idea that we have to look at more than the extraterrestrials That we see in the movies from the 50s, you know, from the 1950s,
01:38:05.000What I can do is I can bring some of the history, like the Socorro thing where I try to help you in the movie.
01:38:16.000But because I know the history, I've met many of these people, I've met the researchers, I know what they went through, you know, including the Air Force officers, you know, I mean, they were under extraordinary pressure.
01:39:27.000In Silicon Valley, I was with Dr. Peter Sturrock regarding some metal stuff, and I looked at you and I said, Jacques, you know, God, can you please tell me what's going on?
01:39:39.000And you said, regarding government secrecy, it's two points, and I'll get to yours in a quick second, and correct me if I'm wrong here, but you said to me, James, look at the government secrecy this way.
01:39:50.000It's not so much a question of what they know.
01:39:53.000It's more of a question of what the government doesn't know.
01:39:57.000They can reveal that we have structured craft of unknown origin.
01:40:04.000That exhibit flight characteristics that are light years advanced from anything we have.
01:40:08.000They have no wings, no tail, no visible means of propulsion.
01:40:11.000They can go from a standstill to out of sight in the blink of an eye.
01:40:15.000There are some reports they can travel underwater at hypersonic speeds.
01:40:21.000We don't know who they are, where they come from, or what they want.
01:40:24.000There's no governing body that wants to disclose that nature of reality because suddenly, and I'm not saying it's a threat because clearly if it was, we'd know about it.
01:41:17.000So David Fravor, who's the Navy pilot that had that dramatic encounter with a tic-tac off the coast of San Diego back in 2004 that was also documented with the radar and visual confirmation, but also filmed on another subsequent flight just moments afterwards.
01:41:35.000But he said that this object, first of all, reacted to him when he was flying down to intercept it, but then after it flew rings around him, and he said it made a joke out of the fastest plane that Navy had at the time, it went to their cap point, which is the predetermined Latin longitude strategic point of the military exercise.
01:41:54.000So how on earth, he said, how on earth could this object know where that point was?
01:41:59.000So what I'm saying is there's a psychic, it's a nuts and bolts phenomenon, but it's also psychic.
01:42:04.000Is what I'm saying, A fairly accurate assessment of what's going on?
01:43:10.000Because if you're going to come up with a hoax, you're going to come up with something better, you know, something better than that, that, you know, you can reveal and you can laugh and so on.
01:44:40.000And it looked like it was almost correlated but not quite.
01:44:47.000And there is something in psychology called a schedule of reinforcement.
01:44:53.000If you want to teach, say, a chimp to do something, to, for example, pick up a ball or something, every time he picks up the ball, you give him some food.
01:46:25.000And that got applied to a lot of different fields.
01:46:29.000Well, that's what the schedule of UFO cases, if you look around the world, not at just one country, not just at Air Force pilots or the Navy or something.
01:46:44.000You have to look at the whole thing if you want to see that pattern.
01:46:48.000The pattern is a worldwide reinforcement of behavior.
01:46:53.000The behavior seems to be you need to let go of some of the things you're doing, and you need to let go of technology that's harmful, and you need maybe to be prepared to go into space.
01:47:44.000And the people like, you know, Lani, Lani Zamora, and they think that there is communication, that they can look at the eyes of that creature and they get something.
01:48:00.000You know, they get that reinforcement.
01:48:03.000I want to say something about the Africa case because I was in China a couple times doing filming for the phenomenon and I learned of this landing case.
01:48:17.000And I didn't prep any of the Chinese people that I was hanging out with about what I'd filmed already in Africa, the landing case and the telepathic message that these beings allegedly gave the children.
01:48:30.000And I got this interpreter was telling me what this landing case in Africa, 1994, same year in China as in Africa.
01:48:38.000And this guy, Meng Xiaogua, got the same environmental message in China as the children got.
01:48:57.000I keep them in a very special place of what the kids saw that day.
01:49:01.000And she's taking these drawings out of these beans.
01:49:03.000And, you know, the quintessential big black eyes and big head.
01:49:08.000And even at one point, it had these two, indicating these two little apostrophes that would indicate some sort of brain telepathic wave going out from the head.
01:49:17.000And fascinating, I took photographs of my iPhone.
01:49:20.000About two months later, I was in Australia doing the landing case in 1966, and I came across these cave paintings that I was learning about from locals, from the Wangina, and I saw these drawings that were thousands of years old.
01:49:34.000Of the exact same beans that I just saw in Africa.
01:49:38.000And I literally had the hair on the back of my neck, and I'm going, wow, this is the Wangina's.
01:50:47.000And I literally saw the drawings, and there's one in particular that just really gave me goosebumps.
01:50:53.000And I don't know exactly where it is, but it had the face and it had these two kind of apostrophes indicating some sort of communication telepathic.
01:51:20.000And if you extrapolate, if you go from what we used to be, we're hairy and muscular and very ape-like to what we are now, which is softer, our heads are larger, we're far more intelligent.
01:51:33.000If it just keeps going in that direction and if we keep with our integration with technology and electronics like that we might be something very different in the future and it's probably going to look like an iconic alien.
01:51:47.000There's a lot of speculation that what we're looking at is us in the future and that these things are what we are going to become or what we are if there are multiple timelines that are running simultaneously In different dimensions, that these things are what a human being becomes in these other timelines a million years from now,
01:52:07.000a hundred thousand years from now, whatever it is.
01:52:09.000You know, you guys were talking earlier about the time freezes during encounters.
01:52:13.000This is a little side story I want to tell you about.
01:52:15.000When I brought the children together in Africa as adults, they had time to process their encounter and, you know, they were adults.
01:52:30.000It's such an exciting moment to hear from people who got within three feet of a potential being of another world.
01:52:36.000And they said, well, if you've ever been out in the remote wilderness and you come across and you have a rare sighting of a wild animal, There's this moment of intrigue and curiosity, almost like time stops.
01:52:50.000And what you're looking at is just as curious and intrigued about you as you are of them.
01:52:57.000And they said, that's what it was like with these beings.
01:53:00.000That they were literally standing there and the beings were looking at all the children.
01:53:04.000Their eyes were scanning, just moving.
01:53:06.000And there was this moment of curiosity.
01:53:10.000It was a benign encounter, but the time had stopped and it was just mystery, intrigue, curiosity.
01:53:18.000So with some of my colleagues, we decided to go back to, you know, and reinvestigate some of the primary cases because there is something missing in all this.
01:53:33.000We're, you know, we're missing some clues.
01:53:36.000And so we are about to publish a book called The Best Kept Secret because some of it, some of what we've uncovered was kept secret and is still secret.
01:53:52.000Even from, you know, the ufologists who've really researched all that stuff.
01:53:57.000It's going to be published, you know, early next year.
01:54:01.000But we're pre, you know, people can pre-order it on Amazon.
01:54:11.000And what we've done is to go back to some of the key cases and some new cases where we found that there may have been some superficial information about it, but most of the information was kept hidden by the witnesses.
01:54:32.000Now, you know, we keep talking about cover-up, cover-up by the government, which is true.
01:55:10.000And you've got to, you know, gain their trust and sit in the kitchen.
01:55:15.000And if you're lucky, they give you a cup of coffee and you talk.
01:55:20.000And you talk to their kids, and you talk to, you know, you get to know them, and they get to know you, and if you're genuine, if they can see that you're not playing any games, you will eventually get the whole story.
01:55:55.000That, number one, the structure of the information is amazing, the real structure, not just what the police blotter or the, you know, Air Force teletype.
01:56:09.000It's not necessarily about the object.
01:56:13.000It's not necessarily about, you know, what somebody heard.
01:56:18.000You've got to look at, and we found especially one case that's extraordinary.
01:57:58.000But what about the structure of the information that's so astonishing that's going to change history?
01:58:08.000Both the materials, and we continue to look at the, you have to look at the materials at that level, not simply that, oh goody, you know, we can take it to the lab and we'll analyze it and we'll patent it and, you know,
01:58:24.000we'll sell it as a new weapon, which is sort of the, you know, the stupid way of looking at this.
01:58:31.000These materials are earth materials, in most cases.
01:58:39.000We're looking at where the complexity is and why they were there at that particular time.
01:58:51.000We don't understand why these materials would be associated with an instrument or a vehicle that does what those things do.
01:59:02.000The situation also is structured in such a way that it ties into our culture.
01:59:12.000And, you know, in most cases, there is no anthropologist, you know, with the team that goes out there, whether it's a military or scientists or ufologists.
01:59:22.000They don't bring in an anthropologist.
01:59:26.000When you look at the traditions, the local traditions, when you look You can begin to tie the details of the sightings to what would be in the conscious.
01:59:41.000I mean, in Brazil, you can't just go there and ask people, you know, to fill out a questionnaire, you know, about how many degrees to the left of the North Pole was it, you know.
02:00:09.000These beings are having these interactions with people.
02:00:12.000They're teaching these people something.
02:00:14.000And that this is becoming more and more prevalent and we're learning something from this experience.
02:00:21.000And the more you have stories like the 2017 story in the New York Times, the more this comes, it's almost like a slow trickle effect of getting the information out.
02:00:51.000Well, one of the things that I'm very optimistic about is that we're living in extremely divided times right now.
02:00:57.000And this is a story that transcends politics, transcends religion and borders.
02:01:06.000Whether people believe it or not, they're curious.
02:01:09.000And I think, ultimately, when this story is starting to come out and there are people behind the scenes working diligently to get it to come out, That it's going to have a very unifying effect on humanity.
02:01:20.000I mean, I sound like a group hug moment here, but I actually do believe that it'll force us to look at ourselves as who we really are.
02:01:30.000And that there seems to be this external consciousness that is affecting our evolution somehow.
02:01:37.000On a planet that's extraordinarily fragile, you know, I mean it could be impacted literally, physically by a lot of things and impacted by our stupidity.
02:01:52.000I mean there were three cases in history where the, you know, the alert went To go bomb the Soviet Union.
02:02:01.000I mean, three cases where the bombers were recalled because one guy thought, this doesn't make sense.
02:02:08.000I mean, he had images involving him and he left the compound to go outside and, you know, sort of readjust and realize that what he was looking at was a simulation of a Russian attack and that the bombers were up and ready to open the envelope.
02:02:26.000In other words, they mistook the phenomenon for a threat.
02:02:31.000But everything in the defense establishment is oriented towards a threat.
02:02:38.000If you don't have a threat, you don't need all that.
02:02:40.000That's the problem with the way you were describing the way we're approaching this phenomenon, that we're approaching it like it's a threat.
02:02:47.000And that instead of the military looking at this, there should be the scientific community that has access to this information.
02:02:57.000The military has very, very good platforms for observation, you know, like those infrared cameras, like the radar, like all the sophistication that they have, the tracking systems, the satellites.
02:03:13.000But, you know, I'd rather have a cup of coffee with the The guy in his trailer who has seen something and can show me the traces in his backyard, you know, because I can do something with that.
02:03:27.000What I was going to say is, you know, you look at what they do, but you also look at what they don't do.
02:03:33.000And one of the huge moments for me, and you could extrapolate on this, is when I met with Senator Reid, he kind of accidentally drops this huge bombshell where he talks about The most astonishing aspect of the phenomenon,
02:03:49.000as far as he determined from ATIP, that secret Pentagon program, was that they were not only observed over super-sensitive military weapons installations, but they were shutting our nukes off.
02:04:02.000And Senator Reid went as far as to say in a couple of cases that he looked into, if the President of the United States wanted to launch, he couldn't have launched.
02:04:10.000And I interviewed one of these officers, Colonel Robert Salas, who's a launch control officer, during the height of the Cold War, and he said, well, the message was pretty clear as far as I was concerned.
02:05:05.000You know, for a while, I mean, we're testing those facilities.
02:05:08.000So for a while, when I was bringing that up, people would say, well, you know, we've got incursions over those platforms to see if the guards are really reacting to detecting a threat and so on.
02:05:26.000But that's one thing, to fly over a nuclear facility or a storage area.
02:05:32.000Where you have nuclear bombs, it's another to overcome the code of the missiles, one by one.
02:05:41.000And you have cases in your movie where all the missiles, all the silos were turned off, one by one.
02:05:50.000And as you said, if they had wanted to launch, they couldn't have launched the missiles.
02:05:56.000That's not something that, you know, is just an exercise.
02:06:02.000Especially since the Russians said the same thing.
02:06:04.000Yeah, and this is something that the general public has always, because I'm Joe Public myself, I mean, I'm a guy, a civilian that just wanted to get to the bottom of it.
02:06:12.000I sort of stumbled upon this thing accidentally, and now I can't walk away from it because I'm going, this is like the biggest story of modern history.
02:06:19.000I think that every man, woman, and child is entitled to know this.
02:06:23.000But I would always ask these generals every time I'd meet with these military guys, and I've asked them all around the world, why are you guys covering this up?
02:06:32.000And they said, look, you can't look at it that way.
02:06:34.000You have to understand from our perspective.
02:06:36.000We are employed by the public to protect you.
02:06:41.000For us to disclose that we have these unidentified objects whizzing around in our airspace with impunity, flying rings around our fastest jets, We don't know who they are, where they come from.
02:06:53.000That's just not in our nature to disclose that to the public.
02:06:56.000That's going to open up the floodgate to a bunch of questions of which we don't have answers.
02:07:00.000So you can kind of justifiably so see why the secrecy has lasted as long as it has.
02:07:06.000But it's starting to come out now, and I think we're living in pretty exciting times with it all.
02:07:47.000And they would have lunch, you know, which is a thing you do in France.
02:07:50.000You know, you have lunch with somebody and then you talk.
02:07:53.000And he convinced Clairouin that, you know, go to your superiors and find out, you know, we should tell the public about this and we should open it up, you know, and we should...
02:08:48.000He said, well, the Americans think that it would open up too many things, you know, that we couldn't control, that society is not ready, that people would be scared, people would panic,
02:09:05.000you know, that religious ideas would float around, people would fight each other.
02:09:11.000About, you know, what's happening in their consciousness and in their faith and in their life.
02:09:53.000And one of the things I really wanted to establish, if you'll notice, I have a very dramatic encounter at the beginning of the film, which occurs in 1955. It was with Colonel William T. Coleman, who later became public spokes officer for Project Blue Book, which is the Air Force's investigatory arm for UFOs.
02:10:08.000And you listen to his account of this encounter, this really dramatic encounter.
02:10:14.000It started at a duration of about nine minutes.
02:10:18.000It ended at treetop level at what he called maximum continuous power in a B-25 bomber over Alabama in 1955. And he describes, like, he had three engineers in the plane with him.
02:10:29.000They're at treetop level flying flat out, and they literally thought they're going to hit this disk.
02:10:34.000And they're looking right at it in broad daylight going...
02:10:43.000And you listen to his description of it, and then you fast forward, because we bookend it, to David Fravor off the coast of San Diego, and their description of the flight, the observed technology, is identical to what was documented in 1955. We're clearly dealing with a technology that's light years advanced.
02:11:05.000It's the same description of witnesses back in the 40s and 50s.
02:11:24.000But we have to make sure that if there is, quote, disclosure, that it's not just the next chapter of the cover-up, because there are things that haven't come out, you know, like Senator Reid told you on your movie.
02:11:42.000There are things that have not come out that should come out.
02:11:45.000That has been, again, kept hidden, again, from fear that people would overreact or something.
02:11:55.000Or simply things that they haven't told their own superiors.
02:11:59.000Is there a concern that some of it would be disinformation, that they would make up some sort of a story to try to cover things up?
02:12:09.000I don't know, but you could orient it to, you know, a message that would be both interesting, but reassuring superficially, and again, organize it around the threat.
02:12:25.000And, you know, again, that message of reacting to the threat, it makes sense for the military, but the cases that they are working on are only 10% of the database.
02:12:41.000You know, I interviewed this general, Parviz Jafari.
02:12:49.000He was an Iranian general who had that dramatic UFO encounter over Tehran in 1976. And at the time, I was more focused on the encounter itself and how extraordinary it was.
02:12:59.000And then Parviz Jafari, while piloting this F-4 Phantom jet, tries to shoot at the UFO. And he suddenly realizes, maybe that wasn't such a good idea.
02:13:12.000And he has this really dramatic encounter where he talks about he was going to eject the plane, and like, you know, why did I try shooting at this thing?
02:13:18.000I mean, it knew he was about to shoot at it, according to him.
02:13:21.000And ten years after I interviewed Parviz Jafari, just looking for some sort of additional material for the credit roll at the end, I found this really powerful statement from Parviz, and he goes, he was reflecting back on the incident, and he said,
02:13:37.000my biggest regret was that I tried, instead of making peaceful contact, instead of trying to make peaceful contact, I tried to shoot this thing.
02:13:46.000And I wish I could go back and have tried to make peace.
02:13:49.000It's a really powerful statement coming from an Iranian general about an incredibly dramatic encounter.
02:13:55.000You know, just reflecting back on why is it that we have this stance of, hey, anything that's unidentified in our airspace must be seen as a threat and we have to go after it and shoot at it.
02:14:10.000I mean, that's not the kind of contact I'd like to...
02:14:12.000I don't want that representing me, you know?
02:14:15.000Also, I don't think it would work very well.
02:14:44.000Please, tell us the story, because it's amazing.
02:14:47.000You were right to keep it at that level, because...
02:14:53.000In the 80s, there were congressional hearings, not about UFOs, but about something that I was doing professionally, which is building civilian computer networks for crisis management, for industrial crisis management.
02:15:11.000And we were funded, I mean, the company I created was funded to develop essentially the, you know, the equivalent of computer conferencing we have today on Facebook.
02:15:23.000This was way before the web was invented, in the, again, the mid-80s, to link together all the nuclear power plants in the major countries, five countries, including Japan.
02:15:39.000When it was against the Japanese law to have Japanese data outside Japan and for them to be on that network, the data had to be on our computer, which was in California.
02:15:55.000We operated that network for three years and this was a closed network.
02:16:01.000It wasn't accessible by people outside.
02:16:03.000It was just operated by the international, you know, Industry, essentially, of atomic power.
02:16:14.000And we, by the way, detected a number of flaws.
02:16:18.000This was after the Three Mile Island accident, you know, that could have done a lot of damage.
02:16:25.000And people were scared and they wanted to share the information and we were essentially the Facebook equivalent to that industry.
02:16:35.000So I was asked to testify at the Algor hearings on emergency management.
02:16:43.000And I and another little company were the only civilians there, or the only non-government people there.
02:16:52.000All the others were from, you know, the three later agencies, the CIA, the NRO, the other agencies, or FEMA, you know, the Emergency Management Administration and so on.
02:17:07.000And that was extraordinary because those were the top people who would manage an emergency other than war.
02:17:16.000I mean, they told us, you know, don't even go into the nuclear war thing because even in nuclear war, most of the damage is environmental damage.
02:17:39.000So we were just looking at, you know, civilian casualties and civilian crises.
02:17:46.000And there I met a number of people who were the people in the government who would be handling, you know, nationwide or international crises like the Berlin crisis,
02:18:02.000the people who had been there in the days of the Berlin crisis were there and so on.
02:18:08.000To get all the people who need to know, I mean, everybody goes inside into a bunker, and then the bankers communicate somehow, and then you get in touch with other countries, you get their experts, and then you try to manage the situation.
02:18:37.000One of the people there was an expert who had worked under five administrations managing the structure of crisis management for the U.S. government.
02:18:51.000Arthur Landau was a legendary member of the intelligence community.
02:18:57.000He was knighted by the Queen of England.
02:18:59.000He's one of two or three Americans who were knighted.
02:19:03.000And then his buddies at the CIA used to call him Sir Arthur of the Light Table because a lot of the things he did was with negatives, you know, with satellite photographs that were on the light table.
02:19:17.000He's the one who discovered the missiles in Cuba.
02:19:21.000And briefed President Kennedy, showed him where that was and why there were missiles and not just trees.
02:19:33.000It takes a lot of training, it turns out.
02:19:36.000You can't just look at one of those pictures and say, ah, you know, that's a missile.
02:19:40.000He was the one who was sent by the US to brief Charles de Gaulle, President de Gaulle, about the U-2 shutdown over the Soviet Union.
02:19:53.000And we became friends because I was introduced by the people from the The Al Gore hearings.
02:20:06.000And he had been a pioneer within the intelligence community in getting all the, you know, he started the Air Force's Image Interpretation Center in Washington for the Navy,
02:20:23.000the Air Force, CIA and the other places.
02:20:27.000He told me about 1952. He was very interested in UFOs because he had seen photographs.
02:20:35.000I mean, he was the Armed Forces Photo Interpretation Center.
02:23:04.000He told me, you know, I really shouldn't talk about what happened after that.
02:23:08.000There is no question that there was a piece of metal recovered from that encounter and that it was shot off, you know, a flying disc over Washington in 1952. And all the explanations that were given to the scientists and to the public were BS. Yeah,
02:23:27.000I mean, we feature this case in the film and we have the guy that was actually in the radar room, this guy Al Chop, and we had testimony from a gentleman that interviewed him, Tom Tullian, back in 1990-something.
02:23:39.000And it's very rare, extremely rare footage of an interview with the very man who was in the radar room listening to the cockpit, listening to the pilot, as he was surrounded by UFOs right over the, you know, Washington DC, White House, Capitol Building.
02:24:35.000We went back and forth on whether to include that in the movie, and I finally said, I kept, you know, maybe at some point I'll be able to Tell you where it is.
02:25:00.000You know, I respect the need for certain things to be managed in a particular way, and it wouldn't really add to the story to talk about that.
02:25:18.000In the book we go a lot further in talking about what those materials are, what the questions are for science, but also what the questions are for disclosure if there is over-disclosure.
02:25:35.000But there isn't going to be one big disclosure that says we've got contact with aliens from Alpha Centauri.
02:26:15.000So, you know, fast forward after 1952. 1952 was a disaster for the Air Force because they realized that their lines of communication, which were already a network, it was a network of theletypes,
02:26:32.000We're saturated by people reporting UFOs, including Air Force bases reporting UFOs.
02:26:40.000And somebody thought if the Russians were to simulate a UFO thing by throwing, you know, artificial things in the sky or whatever, they could saturate the communication and we couldn't deploy the defense system.
02:26:59.000So we've got to do something about it.
02:27:02.000To reduce the level of reports from the public.
02:27:07.000So they called together five of the top scientists in the land, you know, Felton Page, Lou Alvarez, people like that, Nobel Prizes, people who knew the nuclear secrets from the days of Oppenheimer and so on.
02:27:26.000And they brought them to discuss what they should do and be briefed by Art Lundahl.
02:27:35.000That's where he lost his 20 pictures, which were the best pictures from the beginning of the film.
02:27:48.000But Hynek was, as he says, cooling his heels in the antechamber, in the lobby, and they would only bring him in for a couple of things before the scientists.
02:28:01.000Long story short, the outcome was a classified recommendation to explain away most of the phenomenon to the public, to reduce the number of reports.
02:28:14.000So the idea wasn't to make the problem go away.
02:28:18.000It was to make the reports go away because the reports were clogging up the communication channels that were vital to the defense of the country.
02:29:08.000So I buy new clean folders and I start going through all the files because we had copies of, you know, essentially 20,000 reports from the Air Force that were unclassified.
02:29:23.000And so I make these new things and I put everything back in order.
02:29:28.000I also punch the cards for that so that we have a database at the same time, which I still have.
02:29:35.000And with the names of witnesses, by the way.
02:29:40.000And I find this folder which is full of stuff.
02:29:46.000And in it, there is two pages, an onion skin.
02:29:50.000Everybody, I mean, your audience, I'm sure your audience has no idea what an onion skin is.
02:29:58.000You know, when you have a typewriter, a hand typewriter, and you want to make several copies, You put a carbon between, and the first page is your letter, and the others are, you know, thin paper.
02:30:12.000You know, that thin paper is called an onion skin.
02:30:16.000Of course, now we have computers, so we don't need carbon copies.
02:30:20.000So it's a carbon copy of a memo from somebody I've never heard of to somebody in the intelligence community.
02:30:31.000Saying we should not have that panel because we are not ready.
02:30:39.000And, which is interesting by itself, I mean, who are these people who want to stop this top-level scientific panel of United States defense establishment?
02:32:08.000So you bring together the top, you know, top clearance, top physicists in the US, including a couple of Nobel Prizes, and you don't tell them who you are.
02:32:50.000The Robertson Panel was then told not to happen by this This memo that you find, which basically is an unknown government agency with more power, more influence in the CIA. It wasn't even an agency.
02:33:12.000And what they were saying is, you know, it's a good idea to bring the scientists, but this is premature.
02:33:18.000We're not ready to tell them about the patterns.
02:33:21.000It's always about, these were top level computer people in 1954. They were working with punch cards, but punch cards work.
02:33:30.000I mean, you know, there's nothing wrong with punch cards.
02:33:35.000They wanted to bring the best information and then had ideas that they wanted to discuss about how to test their hypotheses about what UFOs are.
02:33:48.000The Robertson panel went on, ignored that memo, it went on, and it concluded that they should discount the reports from the public and they should look at instrumentation from the military,
02:34:31.000Well, the memo, so when I discussed it with Hynek, and I got only one other person in the confidence, the memo came from an organization in Ohio called Battelle Memorial Institute.
02:34:54.000Top organization on the analysis of metals.
02:34:59.000They were the ones who invented titanium aluminide.
02:35:03.000They were the ones who invented some of the coatings and some of the metals used in spy planes like that were used later in the U-2, in the SR-71, in those undetectable airplanes and so on.
02:36:09.000But Joe's question is, where would that piece of metal that was shot off the UFO, that memo revealed, it was written by a metallurgist from the Memorial Institute.
02:36:19.000So if he had that metal in his possession, it would have been analyzed by a metallurgist at the Memorial Institute.
02:36:25.000Yeah, but at that point, the different parts were not communicating.
02:36:39.000I think the book talks about how How complicated it is to get, once you get the medals or the samples or whatever, what do you do with it and what does it mean?
02:36:55.000Why shouldn't you talk about whether or not they tested the medal?
02:36:58.000Well, because I'm not, I don't have the complete information.
02:37:04.000You know, I mean, obviously that was classified.
02:37:08.000Art Rondahl told me that because, number one, you know, he knew that I knew the rest of the story.
02:37:17.000Number two, I had just testified before, you know, a congressional panel on crisis management for the United States of America.
02:37:29.000So he knew that I understood how those things happen, you know, how they are managed.
02:38:56.000How do you know that this is an extraterrestrial piece of metal if it has the same characteristics of metal that you would find here on Earth?
02:39:08.000The characteristics of the metal are going to be the same ones that we find on Earth.
02:39:13.000Because iron from Mars or Venus is like iron you can pick up.
02:39:19.000But let's go back to the time where you were talking about that one particular silicon matrix.
02:39:23.000If it is engineered at the atomic level for, say, 1954...
02:39:32.000At a level where our technology hadn't evolved to the point of, for example, separating the isotopes.
02:39:52.000I went to Argentina and I got more of this stuff because there is still some stuff there.
02:39:58.000And I brought back test tubes with enough material that we are going to be testing it again.
02:40:06.000So they haven't tested anything that shows that it's clearly extraterrestrial?
02:40:10.000No one has any concrete evidence from any of these samples.
02:40:13.000The medal that was found in Brazil where people described an object flying over and then an explosion that showered, some of it fell in the water, some of it fell in the sand on the beach,
02:40:57.000Is there one piece of metal that you can say, this was made at a time, or this is from 1952, there was no technology to recreate this metal then, we didn't know how to make this?
02:41:08.000Well, the one that I'm talking about was 57 over Ubatuba in Brazil.
02:41:14.000And other groups have a similar thing.
02:41:19.000But what was found was that one of the components of the magnesium, one of the isotopes of the magnesium, was way over what it would be in nature, in the natural magnesium.
02:41:32.000Which means somebody took it apart and reformulated the magnesium.
02:41:37.000And magnesium is very light and very strong, unusual metal.
02:41:41.000Yes, it also ignites in contact with air.
02:41:55.000So there is a layer of magnesium oxide on top of it.
02:41:59.000And the analyses, some of the analyses that have been done would indicate that number one, it's extremely pure, purer than the Dao standard for magnesium.
02:42:14.000But, you know, again, if you go to see a physicist, he'll say, well, I can buy the Dao standard and I can refine it further in my lab.
02:42:26.000Dao chemical, you know, they supply metals to everybody.
02:42:31.000They never had a commercial need for that, but if I have a need for that, I can do it.
02:43:07.000So when you say we have lots of metal that seems to have come from a UFO, what would lead you to think that if none of this has been proven to be extraterrestrial?
02:43:17.000Well, because people saw the thing crash.
02:43:20.000Yeah, but people don't always tell the truth, right?
02:43:23.000Isn't part of the problem is that people don't always tell the truth?
02:43:26.000Yeah, but if they come up with, if they say this thing crashed, you know, you've got ordinary people in Brazil in that little town.
02:43:34.000You've got the police, you've got the, you know, telling you that this thing fell.
02:44:01.000And Gary said to me, and some of which had to be edited down a little bit because he went a little beyond the comfort zone of Stanford University.
02:44:10.000He said to me that what we're looking at has an isotopic value that he didn't understand, and that if it was to be recreated on Earth, it would be in the billions of dollars to do it.
02:45:13.000And, you know, obviously Battelle would have been a logical place to look at that because they had all the people who signed that memo were metallurgists.
02:45:27.000So that makes you think of something, right?
02:45:32.000I get frustrated with it too because I went to the lab and I saw the machine.
02:45:38.000I saw the metal samples which you carried around like this.
02:45:51.000And he's concerned that he's going to make a statement That's going to be premature, that the further scientific analysis, that the scientific journals and the peer review hasn't happened yet, and therefore he's being really conservative.
02:46:07.000But basically what he's telling me is the stuff's engineered at an atomic level, it would be in the billions of dollars to recreate, if we could even recreate it.
02:46:14.000And we're talking about pieces that recovered as early as 47 and 57 and, you know, etc.
02:46:19.000So it's extremely exciting, but it's too early to make any Concrete statements.
02:46:28.000At least you're saying that there is something, some evidence that shows that there's something, and whether or not it's made from materials that exist as we know it currently on Earth, it's made in a way that there's no way anyone can make it today without some insane budget.
02:46:55.000You know, this scientist from that company with that matrix of orthosilicate, the Air Force colonel who told me about the thing he could lift with one finger, you know, a whole wing.
02:47:12.000You know, colonel Corso with the stuff that he recovered that he was given by the army.
02:47:20.000I mean, initially the army had the project to analyze this right after the war and that he gave to the different labs.
02:47:33.000What we need to do is go through the normal scientific publication process.
02:48:18.000I mean, you need saliva from a Martian.
02:48:22.000We can do the DNA. I brought this up with with Christopher Mellon recently and because you hear that same old argument you know oh you know the skeptic and I think it's perfectly healthy to be skeptical I'm to be the first one to tell you that the vast majority of UFO reports can and have been explained away in sort of down-to-earth conventional terms but there's that core 10 or 15 percent of cases that truly after careful scientific investigation defy a terrestrial explanation and those are the cases that we focus on and I asked
02:48:52.000Christopher Mellon What do you say to the skeptic that says, oh, there's clearly just anecdotal evidence as to the reality of UFOs?
02:48:59.000He's like, well, we put that to bed a long time ago.
02:49:48.000You know, focus in the scientific community and get to the bottom of it and put the necessary resources in place and stop treating this like a taboo subject that we have to all, you know, shy away from.
02:49:59.000Well, whoever has a stranglehold on the information in the intelligence community seems to be in a position where a lot of what they have is, I don't know.
02:50:09.000Yeah, and they're also sitting on footage of, you know, apparently according to all the people, the military guys I've talked to, crystal clear photographic evidence, landing film footage evidence, cockpit film recording evidence.
02:50:24.000I mean, there's that statement I read earlier about this latest story breaking about two Navy pilots getting one triangular-shaped UFO that came out of the water.
02:50:33.000They've got a crystal clear photograph of that.
02:50:53.000I mean, the cockpit recordings that Christopher Mellon snuck out of the Pentagon that ended up on the page of the New York Times, that was huge.
02:51:00.000Everyone is waiting for that type of evidence.
02:51:12.000Well, at the Al Gore hearings about emergency management, the question of the satellites came up.
02:51:22.000And somebody said, one of the congresspeople, We pay you guys to deploy these satellites, and you look at the Earth all the time with 10 centimeters resolution.
02:51:37.000So if you see something that could be a crisis, you should be able to tell us if it's going to threaten the population of the United States.
02:51:50.000There was one guy there who didn't laugh because he was respectful of the committee, but he said, with all due respect, I cannot, under this audience, I cannot tell you where I work,
02:52:06.000but there are three letters to my employer, and what I can tell you is that I measure Every morning, the amount of snow that has fallen on the nose of the statue of Dzerzhinsky in downtown Moscow,
02:52:29.000in front of the headquarters of the KGB. I can measure, I can tell you how much snow fell that night, because I measure it.
02:52:39.000So that tells you, you know, the kind of instrument that we have.
02:52:46.000By regulation, by law, I must turn off my satellite when it flies over the United States.
02:52:59.000If you authorize me to run the satellite, to run the acquisition, I could tell you when there is going to be a flood in Arizona.
02:53:11.000Because I could measure the amount of the snow that fell on the Rockies last night.
02:53:18.000And we've got these climate prediction schedules.
02:53:23.000We can approximately tell you where it might melt and where it's going to go when it melts.
02:53:31.000And how big the reservoirs are going to be, and when the reservoirs are going to overflow.
02:53:37.000But I'm not authorized by law to look at any of the data, and even if I looked at it, I wouldn't be authorized to disclose it to you, because you're not cleared for the characteristics of the resolution of my device.
02:53:54.000And I'm sure that, you know, in March, I'm going to be sitting with my wife and my kids looking at the TV, and I'm going to see this woman in Arizona, with her two babies in her arm, up to here in her kitchen,
02:54:10.000up to here in water, because the dam has flooded, because it happens every winter, because the snow melts and it comes down.
02:55:16.000The other compelling story of abduction that you had briefly brought up for a second before we were still on the Betty and Barney Hill story was Travis Walt.
02:55:26.000We interviewed Travis for potentially for the film and then opted to kind of avoid I don't consider the Travis Walton an abduction so much as an encounter that didn't end well, and he probably was taken aboard to get recovered.
02:55:50.000They had a contract with the government.
02:55:52.000To log a certain area or to clear a certain area and it was late and they were behind on the schedule so they were working a little bit later than they normally would and they all got in the truck.
02:56:03.000They had four-door trucks that had like seven of them driving out and they saw a light in the sky.
02:56:33.000And as he got closer to it, he started to kind of freak out a little bit, and it started making a weird sound, like it was spooling up or something.
02:56:40.000And so he tucked down behind a log that was on the ground, and they're screaming at him in the truck, get back, get back here, what are you doing?
02:56:48.000And he realized he was dangerously close to this thing, so he was going to make a run for the truck, and he got up as this thing was spooling up, according to him, and he tried to make a run for the truck, and some kind of Energy force hit him and knocked him like a raggedy end all the way across,
02:57:05.000like 60 feet, and he landed, and those guys took off thinking they were next, and they left him for dead out there in the woods.
02:57:13.000They're driving down the road, hightailing it out of there, and then the driver realizes, like, we can't leave Travis, man.
02:57:19.000We've got to go back and get Travis, and they were all freaked out thinking that they were going to be next.
02:57:24.000Finally, they argued, and he said, look, man, I'm going back to get Travis, whether you guys are with me or not.
02:57:29.000And if you want, you guys can stay here.
02:59:05.000I met with Travis a handful of times and I sat down with him.
02:59:09.000And a lot of times when I really want to absorb a story, I close my eyes and then their words recreate the visuals for me so I see it.
02:59:16.000And so that's what I did with Travis at dinner, just the two of us.
02:59:19.000And I closed my eyes and he told me he woke up.
02:59:24.000He was on a table, and he was kind of blurry-eyed, but he could see these little beans, and he initially thought, what am I looking at here?
02:59:36.000Where am I? And he saw these little beans, and typical beans.
02:59:41.000Diminutive body, big head, big almond-shaped black eyes, and he was absolutely terrified.
02:59:47.000And he grabbed some sort of instrument that was on the table, and he said that he even touched one of them, and he goes, I was surprised at how light it was.
02:59:53.000It moved really easily, and he started aggressively swinging some instrument that he found on the table towards these things, and then they scurried off and left the room.
03:00:02.000He went off, they went to the right, he went left, and he was walking down a hallway, and he said, you can imagine Like polished aluminum.
03:00:10.000There were no seams, no rivets, no weld marks, but it was all solid, like one solid piece.
03:00:14.000And he said it was tight, and my shoulders were rubbing on either side of this hallway, and I was running down the hallway, totally freaked out, didn't know where he was, and he was having a hard time breathing.
03:00:25.000And he took a left and he went into this room and there was a command chair.
03:00:30.000And he sat in the command chair and he started playing with buttons.
03:02:21.000Yeah, and I went to the actual site with him.
03:02:24.000We actually drove out to that site, and I tell you, man, when we got there, he got out of the car, and he was just running, just running towards the spot.
03:02:34.000There was snow in the ground, and I couldn't keep up with him, but he was running to go to the exact location, and I could see him reliving the whole thing.
03:02:41.000I mean, it was a really powerful moment.
03:03:39.000Yeah, and yeah, it's a fascinating case.
03:03:42.000And I decided that this is the first film that I was dealing, it was my fourth one, that I dealt with Close Encounters of the Third Kind, which is when there were, you know, the witnesses claimed to report beans.
03:04:08.000And I was concerned not to go too far with it and to take baby steps.
03:04:14.000And one of the things that's been incredibly exciting for me to see for the first time, keep in mind this is my fourth film on the topic, is that not only are we seeing...
03:04:24.000A, we've got people like Dan Farah, who's a mainstream, you know, he produced Ready Player One with Steven Spielberg, who's attaching, he's the latest producer, who's associating himself with this film.
03:04:34.000But you're getting like Harry Reid and all these household names that are not only looking at it, participating in it, but publicly endorsing it.
03:04:43.000And that is extremely exciting because that is an indication that People are getting ready for this story to come out.
03:04:53.000I felt it was important to take those baby steps and not go too far because there are some aspects of the phenomenon that if you're unfamiliar with it might be a bit of a stretch.
03:05:04.000Well, it seems like the public is more interested and more open to it now than ever before.
03:05:08.000And it seems less ridiculous to people now.
03:05:52.000And then to see Lou Elizondo publicly endorse the film.
03:05:55.000And we're talking about, like, if you think about it...
03:05:59.000You've got people endorsing a film that, take my name off it, it's just stories that we reported on, but that deals with potential close encounters of the third kind.
03:06:32.000What we meant was, let's compile the evidence and let's build our case so we can allow the audience to walk away at the end of the film saying, that landing case in Africa might have actually just happened.
03:06:44.000The thing about all these cases, whether it's Travis Walton or Betty and Barney Hill or the African case is if you weren't there and you've never experienced anything like it, it was just this one unique thing that happened.
03:06:59.000It's so hard for anyone to accept, unless you see it with your own eyes, unless you're actually there, unless you experience it.
03:07:07.000It's so hard, and it's so easy to be incredulous.
03:07:17.000You listen to his testimony, and then you listen to the parallels of the observed technology, the no wings, and how baffled he was with the whole thing.
03:07:24.000And then you hear the stories, the same technology back in the 40s and 50s.
03:07:29.000You should listen to him on, I don't know if you've listened to him, on Lex Friedman's podcast.
03:07:53.000I had him on my podcast with Jeremy Corbell and that was great, but it was even better on Lex Friedman's podcast because it was just Lex and David together and they went deep into the weeds about the story.
03:08:06.000Yeah, I mean, apparently there was an object under the water, which we were like, did we cover that?
03:08:10.000We kind of mentioned it quickly in the film.
03:08:13.000The thing is, he could only see the water breaking over the top of it.
03:08:16.000He couldn't see the actual object itself.
03:08:18.000But there's many stories about things that are in the water.
03:08:22.000If you wanted to have a base, or you wanted to have some sort of a mothership, and you wanted to hide it in plain view, I mean, 90% of the Earth's ocean is undiscovered or unexplored.
03:08:33.000You could easily hide something in there and no one would ever see it.
03:08:37.000That's one thing Christopher Mellon said.
03:08:39.000He was disappointed with the New York Times, and I thought, well, gosh, the New York Times did something pretty brave, I think, and the due diligence they did, apparently, according to the authors, was insane.
03:08:48.000They had to cross-check everything, make sure they had to speak to Harry Reid, they had to see the government documents, they had to verify the existence.
03:08:55.000I mean, they really worked hard at it.
03:08:57.000But Christopher Mellon said, well, they kind of missed it.
03:08:59.000I said, what do you mean they missed it?