In this episode of the Joe Rogan Experience, Joe talks with billionaire investor and UFO enthusiast Carl Bigelow about his obsession with extraterrestrials and their encounters with the paranormal. We discuss the events of Area 51, the Roswell crash, and the Trinity Experiment, as well as other UFO sightings that have been reported in the past 50 years. Joe also talks about his personal experiences with UFOs, and how they have shaped his views on the subject. This episode was recorded on October 31st, 2019, which is the 50th anniversary of the events at Area 51. If you or someone you know has ever had a UFO encounter, or is interested in learning about one, this is the episode for you! Thanks to our sponsor, for sponsoring this episode. Don't miss out on the best podcast on all things paranormal and UFO related! Check it out! Cheers, Joe and the Crew! - The Joe Rogans Experience All Day, All Day. - by Night, by Day, all day. by Night. See you soon! Enjoyed this episode? - Tom and Sarah Thank you so much for supporting the show! Timestamps: 1:00:00 - What's your favorite UFO sighting? 2:30 - What kind of UFO sighting you've ever had? 3:20 - What are you most curious about? 4:40 - What would you like to see? 5:00 6:00s - What do you think of UFOs? 7:30sounds? 8:40s - Roswell? 9: What do they look like? 10:00 s? 11:30 s 12:30 13:40 15:30 Is it possible? 16:20s? 17: What is your opinion of Roswell 17 - What s your favorite alien encounter? 18:50s: What's a UFO sighting 19:30 or 16:00? 21:30 Does it matter? 22:30? 26:00 or 17: Is it real? 27: What are they a UFO Sighting? 29: What s my favorite sighting ? 35:30 + 35:00 / 36:00 + 35? 36:20 39:00 & 35:40?
00:00:50.000Back when I was about three years old, which would be about 1947, Actually, in May of that year, my grandparents had a very close encounter that was dramatic.
00:01:04.000They were taking an evening drive in the late afternoon up into the mountains and coming on back down to Las Vegas.
00:01:14.000And they saw what appeared to be at first an airplane on fire.
00:01:18.000And the object became closer and closer to them and they pulled off to the side of the road.
00:01:26.000And at one point then it filled up the windshield and they thought they were going to die.
00:01:30.000And at the last second it shot off and disappeared.
00:01:37.000And I learned of this story when I was probably Ten years old, because I was three at the time, and my mother had told me this story.
00:01:51.000So I approached my grandfather, and he wouldn't talk about it.
00:01:55.000Now, after all these years, like seven years have gone by, because I was intrigued with it.
00:02:00.000And so I went to my grandmother, and she only would say a few words, but she wouldn't talk.
00:02:06.000So I got the story from my mom, and they...
00:02:12.000My grandfather had to sit on the side of the road there in the car for a while to recompose himself because they thought they were going to die.
00:02:24.000And then he finally was able to drive back to Las Vegas.
00:03:08.00047. And 47 was the time of the Roswell crash.
00:03:11.00047 was a time there was a lot of UFO activity being observed worldwide.
00:03:16.000And the speculation is that this had to do with the nuclear bombs that were dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki and all the tests that United States had done and Russia had done and that there was a lot of interest.
00:03:32.000Well, actually Russia hadn't dropped any bombs by that time, right?
00:07:00.000And so that was the first event personally that I had at that time in the subject.
00:07:07.000When did you start to connect the idea of these tiny people or human-like things with extraterrestrials?
00:07:14.000Well, years later, when I began to start my process as a researcher and as a student in the subject and began to talk with people who were Who made it their business to be experts in abductions.
00:07:34.000And the more I got into the field and sat writing out questions for the researcher, for the therapist who would be asking the questions, and I'd be sitting there watching the process.
00:07:48.000And just over time, I thought, well, you know, maybe there was something more to it.
00:07:53.000But I'm better off not knowing anything, so I'll just block it off and forget about it.
00:08:00.000Yeah, we talked last night about John Mack a little bit, the Harvard...
00:08:05.000And he did a lot of these sort of hypnotic regression sessions with people where they described very similar scenarios.
00:08:14.000Well, yeah, a multitude of different situations.
00:08:18.000The abduction phenomena was very proliferate in the population, it seemed like.
00:08:28.000Even we did a survey called the Roper Poll.
00:08:32.000And we repeated it three times so that the margin of error was really reduced to like one, one and a half percent.
00:08:39.000And abduction researchers came up with the ten questions.
00:08:43.000And so we distributed that and the conclusion was a fairly A relatively sizable percentage of the population had some kind of experiences according to them,
00:09:00.000according to the researchers, and according to the poll.
00:09:05.000I am not qualified to speak to the accuracy of whether the questions were that relevant to the conclusions or not, but that's what they said.
00:09:16.000And I had, in my own research, found people that I put them through a regression.
00:09:23.000Not personally, but I found a hypnotherapist that could do that.
00:09:27.000And I found a number of people just here, there, scattered around.
00:09:34.000And they would come up with these stories and these events.
00:09:39.000One of the criticisms of John Mack and hypnotic regression in general is that the idea that you can put a memory into someone's head.
00:09:49.000That you could suggest things and you could create false memories.
00:09:53.000And this was something that I've read in the criticism of his work.
00:09:57.000That this style of hypnotic regression and bringing up these very specific scenarios to a bunch of different people, you can sort of help create, especially in people that are easily influenced or people that are open to suggestion,
00:10:14.000you could put these false memories in their head.
00:10:17.000And so, you know, especially when you're dealing with something as fantastic, As a UFO or alien abduction or visitation or something like that.
00:10:57.000They'd be corrected right away by the person being...
00:11:03.000So they went just the opposite direction on purpose to make suggestions to maybe coax the person to come that direction and they wouldn't do it.
00:11:17.000Now screen memory is different supposedly if somebody has a very close encounter With supposedly somebody that's ET, you leave that the memory turns out to be entirely different and that's put into you consciously and you recall something entirely different than what actually happened.
00:11:40.000Maybe you saw two deer on the road or something of that sort or maybe there were owls or whatever.
00:11:51.000What's crazy to me is if you go back to Betty and Barney Hill, if you go to Travis Walton, if you go to a lot of these abduction experiences, people that did not know each other, and particularly we're talking about before social media, before any of this stuff, they have very similar stories.
00:13:25.000She didn't have much of a memory of him, but her parents recalled the scenes that he described, and obviously it became this huge national story.
00:13:37.000I remember hearing about it when I was a kid.
00:13:42.000There was no archetype that you would sort of model You know your memories after I would wonder like if I ever did hypnotic regression today I would I would be very skeptical of my own memories Because I've heard so many stories right of these spaceship encounters I've talked to people like Travis Walton I've talked to people like Bob Lazar I've talked to these people that have had these experiences with these things I would want I would think that my
00:14:12.000memory is Might be tainted by my expectations.
00:14:16.000But you can't say that about Betty and Barney Hill.
00:14:18.000These people, there was no stories like that before then.
00:14:22.000This is not some pop culture thing that they were latching onto.
00:14:25.000And even the way they described these creatures, the similarities between their descriptions and Travis Walton's descriptions, you know, 20 plus years later, it's very eerie.
00:14:59.000And so he was flying over Mount Shasta or somewhere in Washington there.
00:15:04.000And saw these objects, nine objects, kind of skipping along in formation.
00:15:11.000And he, being a professional pilot, was able to estimate their speed, calculate that.
00:15:19.000They were traveling way too fast for conventional aircraft.
00:15:23.000And the shape that he described was, I've always thought of them a little bit of a manta ray shape without the tail, kind of a little bit of a curved boomerang kind of shape to the craft.
00:15:38.000And that got an awful lot of attention because he was a very credible fellow, as were other people that later revealed their own sightings, military backgrounds, people that had major rank or captain rank.
00:15:51.000So they had stories you would listen to about their experiences because they were professional observers in the military.
00:16:04.000And actually, while we were out eating dinner last night, Dan Crenshaw sent me a text, and I shared it with everybody at the table, and it's from American Airlines pilots that saw some spectacular sighting over the last couple of days,
00:16:19.000and they're trying to figure out what the hell these people saw, but something that sped by them at some insane rates of speed, and there's a recording of them discussing it.
00:16:50.000Well, it was a conventional commercial aircraft go 400 plus miles an hour.
00:16:55.000American Airlines pilot reports seeing UFO. An American Airlines pilot reported seeing a long cylindrical object flying right over the top of the plane as he was flying.
00:17:06.000Sunday's American Airlines flight AA2292 was operating from Cincinnati to Phoenix using an Airbus A320 aircraft over the northeast portion of New Mexico at 37,000 feet during what was otherwise a routine flight.
00:17:20.000One of the pilots contacted air traffic control at Albuquerque Center.
00:17:24.000He said, do you have any targets up here?
00:17:26.000We just had something go right over the top of us.
00:17:27.000I hate to say this, but it looked like a long cylindrical object that almost looked like a cruise missile type of thing moving really fast right over the top of us.
00:17:36.000So what's missing is propulsion signature, right?
00:17:40.000So that should have been evident that it had some kind of propulsion, exhaust.
00:17:46.000Some kind of exhaust was going on, right, you would think.
00:17:51.000That they could detect that if it were in the line of sight, if they were behind it?
00:17:55.000Well, that's a very short description, though.
00:17:57.000I mean, maybe it did have some sort of propulsion that they saw.
00:18:17.000And there's video of them, like the one, what is it, the one that's on the East Coast that's moving over the surface of the water at insane rates of speed.
00:18:34.000Because that one was done, I believe it was infrared, the camera.
00:18:37.000So you should have been able to see some exhaust or some heat signature that was showing how it was being propelled at that insane rate of speed.
00:18:46.000And you hear these pilots who are used to flying.
00:19:14.000And they weren't just lights because that craft started from northern Arizona, some say maybe Clark County, Nevada area, and proceeded down south toward Phoenix.
00:19:27.000In the twilight of the evening where thousands of people saw structure.
00:19:33.000It wasn't just, could it be confused with flares, aircraft dropping flares, and no such things had occurred anyway at that time of that day.
00:19:46.000And so people saw structure, and the structure was estimated, what, a quarter mile maybe from tip to tip, boomerang kind of shape, kind of craft.
00:19:56.000And yet, that should have been a really big deal, news-wise.
00:20:03.000Right over a major city, so many observers, but it wasn't.
00:20:13.000Well, but then, of course, the governor at the time was Fyfe Syrington.
00:20:18.000And we know now that he didn't know what to do because he was an actual witness that he admitted to 10 years later of actually being a witness.
00:21:05.000And the information in terms of what these things are, what they aren't, whether or not they're some sort of top secret aircraft that the government is working on, or whatever it is.
00:21:16.000Unless they're making press conferences about these things, they don't necessarily want to broadcast what it is.
00:21:23.000And they certainly don't want to broadcast it if it's not available.
00:21:27.000Do you think that they contacted the governor and informed him that he needed to make a mockery of this?
00:21:33.000Or do you think it was his own personal decision?
00:21:36.000My feeling is it was his personal decision.
00:21:40.000And my feeling is that the government is not that organized anymore.
00:21:46.000Maybe it was back some quite a while back.
00:22:29.000Because there's video footage of it from multiple sources, home footage where people are filming these things, where there's these red lights that are just hovering in the sky.
00:22:38.000But the red lights coincided with these triangular-shaped vehicles or boomerang-shaped vehicles that other people were seeing.
00:22:46.000Well, there were people living on Camelback Mountain, and this is how low this craft was to the surface.
00:22:54.000They got an edge-on view, coming practically at them, just slightly over the mountain.
00:23:16.000The thing about even today, you know, with cameras and Most cell phone cameras aren't capable of seeing things at a zoom.
00:23:25.000With the exception of the Samsung Galaxy series, the new ones, they actually have a setting where you can take photographs of the moon because they have some pretty spectacular zoom capabilities.
00:23:51.000It's got to be much closer to really have definition of what it is you're looking at.
00:23:55.000Now there was a story quite recently of a pilot in a fighter jet that took a photograph of some similar shaped object, some triangular shaped object and apparently it was a very clear image.
00:24:10.000It was a very clear image and there was some speculation about people releasing this and that they were going to release it and there was hesitation about releasing it.
00:25:11.000Debrief Media has learned the leak of an unclassified photo said to have been widely distributed in the intelligence community, which purportedly shows what the DOD has characterized as unidentified aerial phenomenon.
00:25:24.000Look, obviously I'm just talking out of my ass, but what I had heard was that that was not the image in question, that there was a much, much clearer image in question that was pretty stunning, that they were debating on whether or not to release.
00:25:36.000Because once the New York Times in 2017 published that front page article that showed some of those images that had been captured from the video cameras and the fighter jets experiences and talked about Commander David Fravor's experience with the Tic Tac UFO off the coast of San Diego...
00:25:53.000That sort of released a lot of pressure on the concept of if you discuss these things, you're a foolish person.
00:26:05.000For a long time, and I'm sure you must have experienced this because you've been in the game for a long time.
00:26:11.000Discussing UFOs in 1970 or in 1980, people would look at you like you're probably crazy or something, right?
00:26:20.000I was too busy being in business in those years.
00:26:25.000I had a little plan I was following that I had put together when I was a kid, and I was on a mission to be in business, to acquire resources so that I could someday have fun chasing this stuff.
00:26:40.000Yeah, that's one of the more interesting things about you.
00:26:43.000Like, you became like a hotel tycoon and a real estate tycoon, gathered up all this money so that you could study UFOs.
00:27:00.000There's the genesis and the genesis...
00:27:03.000Well, we call it a B330. What we have on our plant right now is engineering units, which are flight units, as far as hull and bulkheads are concerned, and longerons.
00:27:18.000And so we had to shut down because of the COVID, but we have very advanced structures.
00:27:28.000Yeah, and these have been implemented too.
00:27:31.000Some of them have actually been, you've actually put these things...
00:27:34.000We have a TRL-9 because we have a structure, scale structure, that's on the ISS now.
00:27:43.000Yeah, so your dream in a lot of ways of getting involved in aerospace and in space travel, like you're, this is real, like you're a guy who actually has contracts with You know, big government.
00:27:58.000Not that I've ever made money back, you know.
00:28:20.000There probably is a connection there because you're made aware that there's a whole lot more out there than what we know and what people think.
00:30:11.000In fact, nothing about the origination was original with me because I became incredulous about what NASA had done in the early 90s with something called the Transhab.
00:30:29.000And it was a vehicle to take people to Mars.
00:30:33.000And Congress cut the funding for that.
00:30:38.000And, oh my God, how could they do such a thing?
00:30:41.000Because it was very apparent, apparent that that craft was really cool for a lot of reasons.
00:30:50.000And so I started the company, started putting money in it, and started going after that.
00:30:56.000And then after about three years acquired a license, exclusive license, to use their patent just for the enclosure.
00:31:57.000Ballistically, we did a lot of what's called hypervelocity impacts tests where you shoot a particle at about seven kilometers a second, six to seven, depending on the type of gas gun you're using, and seeing how well the structure can defend against something going that fast.
00:32:18.000Actually, the defense on something going fast is easier than a particle going slower, like a bullet, for example.
00:32:26.000Kind of crazy, but for some reason that...
00:32:29.000And when you mean defense, you mean something like micrometeors or space junk?
00:34:42.000First of all, you have to maybe locate.
00:34:45.000There could be things on the hull that are in the way, because you use the hull as an attaching surface, and so that volume is very useful.
00:34:54.000And so assuming you've located it now, and it depends on the size of the particle.
00:35:00.000If it actually was significantly large, it'd blow off whatever was attached to the hole, maybe just put another hole right through whatever was attached.
00:37:52.000So anyway, that's how I started in that, and I fell in love with the concept of expandable systems, launching something with a finite Fairing diameter and length and being able to triple the size of that volume once it's ejected and it's launched,
00:38:12.000you know, and the fairing opens up and now you start to expand and inflate and, wow, all that you can do with that volume is really cool.
00:38:21.000And so this allowed you to, I mean, these contracts, if you're doing it with the ISS, are they with NASA? Is that who you work with?
00:38:32.000Yeah, NASA basically has been the only game in town for us and for most folks.
00:38:37.000Most folks in the rocket business, other than for the Air Force who buys launches for satellites, NASA is the game still.
00:38:45.000And when NASA's financially hurting, everybody hurts.
00:38:50.000Depending upon who is providing the leadership, both in Congress and in NASA and in the White House, you can do fantastic things.
00:39:03.000So it's all a combination of whether or not people can all work together.
00:39:07.000If they're fighting in Congress and going on, you're not going to go places like you could.
00:39:14.000So with you being involved in this and creating these habitats and your long-standing obsession with UFOs and potential alien life, getting involved with NASA must have been pretty exciting.
00:39:27.000You're like, well, maybe I'm going to learn something now.
00:41:28.000Well, as I could speak to, you know, just the general science population was much more reticent to talk about UFOs 30 years ago, I think, than today.
00:42:09.000As you continue to do research and work in that whole community is kind of a strange frustration About acquiring a little bit of a taste of understanding about the possibilities of locomotion,
00:43:12.000So it's like night and day comparison.
00:43:15.000And here we are still in 2021 and still waiting to get back to the moon.
00:43:21.000Well, I think when we were talking earlier about the New York Times article, I think that was a real pivotal moment in the culture's acceptance of the concept of these things.
00:43:33.000Because when you see something printed on the front page of the New York Times, when you see people like Commander Fravor, very well respected, all...
00:44:05.000But the preponderance of evidence had gotten to the point where there was enough out there where you could say, listen, this is not something to be mocked anymore.
00:44:15.000When you have Commander Faber, and we hired Doug, one of the pilots there.
00:44:21.000We learned about that in 2008. The event happened in 2004. So you have really credible people seeing something that's totally anomalous and has no business doing what it's doing.
00:44:35.000So you've got to take it really seriously.
00:44:38.000Not only that, things that have been tracked by instrumentation, things that have gone from 80,000 feet above sea level to one foot in less than a second, and then traveled to the agreed-upon destination where the plane was going to go later.
00:44:54.000They knew where they were traveling to.
00:44:58.000It was able to travel at an insane rate of speed that's not even...
00:45:03.000It doesn't make any sense with any technology that we've ever even theorized.
00:46:59.000I mean, that's not even outside of what makes sense.
00:47:04.000If you followed the technology and the technological improvements over the last 15, 20 years and you explored the possibility of what could be done in the next 100 or 1,000 or 100,000 years,
00:47:24.000Well, physics is incomplete, in my humble opinion, because it doesn't provide answers for all the paranormal baskets.
00:47:34.000Not just what we're talking about with AT UFOs, but all the other kinds of stuff that has been done in laboratories for many, many years on camera.
00:47:46.000By people that have performed really strange things.
00:47:59.000Micro-macro-PK? Just manipulating material objects, whether they're electrons or a bottle cap.
00:48:11.000Let's say you've got a screen computer, and it's hooked up to a random event generator, which is flipping a coin many, many hundreds of thousands of times a second, and it's establishing a firm,
00:48:27.000even line, this 50-50 across your screen.
00:48:33.000And your challenge is to have the two lines deviate.
00:48:40.000So you're, and I don't know, it's been so many years since I was in the pair lab with Bob John and Brenda Dunn.
00:48:48.000I forget the exact details on this, but the point was, there was a line that was created, a second line that you were to think about and try to deviate that line.
00:48:57.000And you should not be able to do that at all.
00:49:00.000So they had maybe a one flat line on the screen, and then you had this random event generator that should be 50-50 right alongside that same line.
00:51:38.000So the point really is, if you were to make it a job to accumulate this kind of information from as many sources as possible, you'd really have a large volume of stuff and then you'd have a lot of material to look at and analyze,
00:52:05.000Do you think that things like psychic powers or an understanding of other people's thoughts and ideas, these are maybe possibly emerging aspects of human beings?
00:52:18.000Like as a human evolves, as we go from being a tree-dwelling primate To being what we are today, where people are intuitive and we can sort of read social cues and we understand each other and we can talk and communicate using sounds and noises that as the human animal evolves,
00:52:39.000they'll eventually develop some sort of a psychic power.
00:52:43.000So that, in a way that's connected to supposing that those psychic powers already exist to some degree.
00:52:52.000Maybe in some people more than others.
00:54:14.000What firing of neurons, what personal experiences combined with education, combined with innate creativity, makes a person create something?
00:54:47.000As the human animal evolves, We could only surmise that those types of skills and those types of qualities that a human being can possess could possibly get better.
00:55:02.000If you get two very intuitive people, they have a child and the child is even more intuitive than them.
00:55:06.000And that some aspects, unprovable, unmeasurable aspects of psychic power could be something that's emerging out of the human animal.
00:55:19.000I think what may more likely would happen, because we're shifting now to taking normal human physiology, which is a separate situation from being able to perform things that Are more unique than just being creative.
00:55:45.000So I think that you might have small circuitry and small I think?
00:56:15.000It's a cause and effect using consciousness.
00:56:18.000So whether it's clairvoyance or telepathy or psychometry, micro, macro, PK, remote viewing, the whole basket, those are all real and they're all world-class performers in every one of those things.
00:56:31.000Remote viewing is a great example of this because we know for 20 years the CIA and the Army had programs in this and so did the Russians.
00:57:27.000Very accurate and give me information that, to this day, I don't know if it's true or not because it was underground information that I don't even know.
00:59:16.000So, first of all, the aspect of this is though you're over the person's head that you're...
00:59:23.000So we have to go back and say there are different kinds of remote viewing, first of all.
00:59:27.000So I'm just taking one type, where maybe your target is a person, and the person is at a location, and maybe the location is a wharf, a boat dock.
01:00:21.000So they were able to figure out where people were and they were able to get a sort of an understanding of what they were doing and how they were doing it and what their surroundings look like.
01:06:09.000I guess it was some kind of UFO, something else that wasn't another sub, you know, of ours or Russians or anybody's.
01:06:17.000That's one of the speculations about unidentified flying objects is that they're not just flying, that some of them actually exist underwater.
01:06:25.000There's been many sightings of things that went into the ocean.
01:06:30.000Well, I mean, you know, supposedly, aren't there stories even about Christopher Columbus crew and so forth seeing things going back for centuries, things coming in and out of the water?
01:06:41.000Well, that was part of the Tic Tac, the Commander David Fravor's encounter, that there was something below the surface of the water that was creating a wake, almost like rocks.
01:06:51.000It was a very large thing and that it went under as they approached and the Tic Tac craft faced them.
01:07:01.000And that, you know, they don't know to this day what that thing was that was under the surface, but that's what led them to go and investigate in the first place.
01:07:08.000And as they were going towards it, that's when they realized that there's this thing like, you know, roughly the size of this room.
01:07:16.000Yeah, well in that carrier group was a ship or two that was bristling with electronic equipment.
01:07:24.000And it's the first thing that sensed something out there.
01:07:29.000And that's when my understanding was, and I'm going back a long time now, was that that's when they were launched to go check it out.
01:07:38.000Because what was out there shouldn't be out there and behaving the way it was behaving according to all the electronics on this ship that was part of the battle group.
01:08:22.000I think sometimes better left alone, if you know they're really behaving fantastically, and they're not the Russians or Chinese or whatever, Go have a sandwich.
01:09:01.000It's a very strange situation to be in, to be a fighter pilot with the most sophisticated military equipment and to encounter something that is beyond the scope of even imagination of what's possible.
01:10:17.000So we find our way back out in the desert, out there.
01:10:22.000I'm thinking we're on a UFO watch, which is always fun.
01:10:27.000Sometimes the best thing is the food you take along, right?
01:10:30.000And you're out there under the stars, and it's nice, and you have a good time just watching.
01:10:37.000But there's a rustle of things going on here, and next thing I know, there's a balloon, this mylar balloon's inflated, And there's a slight breeze, and Bob lets it go.
01:10:49.000And we're on the opposite side of the mountain range from supposedly S4. And he wants to go that way.
01:10:58.000Thank God the wind was going in the opposite direction.
01:11:01.000It was traveling north instead of south.
01:12:01.000So he starts telling people about what he's doing and telling people, listen, I can take you to a place where once a week they do these tests.
01:12:08.000So he starts bringing people to this area.
01:12:10.000They see these objects flying in these spectacular ways that we really can't do with any of our conventional aircrafts.
01:12:19.000And then Bob gets in trouble for that.
01:12:21.000Then Bob goes on the George Knapp show and starts explaining all these different things, presumably for self-preservation.
01:12:29.000Because the best way to probably protect your own life is to go public with this and explain everything that's happening.
01:12:36.000And they can discredit you and make you look like a nut, but if they kill you, then it leads credence to your story.
01:12:44.000Yeah, it gives you a very huge hardship.
01:13:18.000But I wasn't aware of a lot until much, until, I don't think at that time I was aware of him taking people out on, you know, Wednesday nights to go see something out there.
01:13:30.000I kind of missed out on that or whatever.
01:13:32.000And I don't think this was anything connected to that.
01:13:54.000Obviously, you're a person that has a deep fascination with UFOs.
01:13:58.000Now, here you are talking to this guy who's clearly a genius, brilliant guy, Bob Lazar, and he's telling you this fucking banana story.
01:14:06.000He's out there back-engineering spacecrafts that came from another land that are using this element 115, this stuff that's just a theoretical element that wasn't even proven by Particle Collider until, what, 2013?
01:14:31.000I wanted to reserve judgment until I knew a lot more.
01:14:37.000And the more he talked, the more interesting it became.
01:14:43.000The more research that George did, things that he uncovered, it became more interesting.
01:14:49.000And And so, as I said a while back, I think George was doing an interview with me, and I said, I wouldn't bet against Bob's, the truth of the majority of everything that Bob has said.
01:15:11.000But I would tend to say Bob is legitimate.
01:15:23.000And, you know, there's certain aspects of things that are parts of stories that you wonder, well, how could this happen and so forth?
01:15:32.000But I think if you take all of the collective information and the work that George Knapp has done to validate things, it's awfully damn impressive.
01:15:43.000George is such an important part of it because he's a legitimate investigative journalist, and that was his career.
01:17:18.000But when you are a person like yourself, you saw me even more than I, who is obsessed with this subject, the possibility of alien life that's visited this earth, and maybe even left crafts behind,
01:17:34.000and maybe these crafts are in the possession of some secret government agencies that are trying to Observe them and back-engineer them.
01:18:30.000So we came across or myself and a couple other people came across folks who could collaborate some of the things going on out there.
01:18:44.000Such as silent craft actually lifting off at nighttime.
01:18:51.000Not looking as though the control was very good.
01:18:56.000But actually lifting off, maneuvering like a real small trial kind of thing.
01:19:04.000And that fellow observed it from a distance where he wasn't supposed to be.
01:19:09.000George has come up with collaboration, I think, from two or three other sources also, besides what Bob said, about certain aspects of things out there.
01:19:18.000It's just that Bob's story is so much more in-depth, so much more detailed, like that book, That he talked about years ago, coming across.
01:19:35.000Well, there was a book, as I remember, there was some kind of a book that Bob was allowed to look through, or he actually seized the opportunity to do it when he was in a room where the book was,
01:20:24.000What an amazing way to portray information in some kind of a book and actually have holographic images coming forth out of the, you know, I don't know.
01:20:37.000So that, I haven't ever heard of that...
01:20:48.000There was also some very strange summary of what they understand or what they believe to be true about the origins of human beings.
01:21:02.000And that they believed that what these visitations were about was that human beings are the product of accelerated evolution.
01:21:09.000And that these species from wherever had been coming here and doing genetic experiments with primates and created human beings.
01:21:20.000Which is the ultimate, like, who knows, like, wow, that's fun to think about, but...
01:21:26.000We were talking about this last night, like how bizarre humans are, that out of all these things on Earth, we're the only ones with shoes.
01:21:34.000Out of all these things, we're the only ones that have to wear clothes, we're the only ones that jump into metal boxes with rubber tires and roll around these hard surfaces that we created, or fly in planes, or send video through your phone to other people that are on the other side of the continent.
01:22:55.000I think I need more evidence to be more curious about.
01:23:01.000I'm more concerned about other kinds of things that are now than where do the human species come from particularly.
01:23:08.000I'm more driven by other kinds of things that could make a difference today going forward.
01:23:15.000So getting back to the Bob Lazar thing, when you first got to know him and you first were considering this story and how crazy it was, what was it like to meet a guy who, at least by his own accounts, had encountered this thing that you were seeking?
01:23:39.000And so that's more than just entertaining.
01:23:45.000To listen to his story is profound, right?
01:23:48.000And so it gives you an awful lot to think about and to try to position as to how can you measure future information you might get against that story.
01:24:01.000How can you verify different kinds of things?
01:24:05.000And so I've heard a lot more silly things, I think, than what Bob was talking about.
01:24:19.000And then the more you get to talk to him, the more you get to know him, and people like George, who's an investigative journalist, it gets more and more, wow.
01:25:34.000At what point does a species have a spirit or a soul?
01:25:40.000Could a machine, even if it's very advanced and can think better than we can think and calculate faster and actually understands fear, love, passions?
01:25:52.000Would it ever evolve to having a soul or a spirit?
01:26:00.000Yeah, it's a different kind of question.
01:26:01.000It's also a good question as to are those things imperative for life?
01:26:04.000When we think of ego, when we think of our mating instincts and all the various pleasant and unpleasant aspects of being a human being, how many of them are impediments to growth and progress?
01:27:11.000There's a lot of suspension of disbelief when you're watching a science fiction movie that takes place in modern era that has robots that look exactly like people and have emotions and thoughts and stuff.
01:27:22.000But it makes you wonder, how far away are we from something like that?
01:27:27.000Some super intelligent thing that we create ourselves, and then it can create other super intelligent things.
01:27:51.000And that's one of the things that I've always been very curious about when it comes to these aliens.
01:27:58.000Iconic aliens that people experience, they always seem like what we will look like in the future.
01:28:06.000If you look at a chimpanzee or a gorilla, they're much more muscular than human beings, they're much stronger, they're covered in hair, they have smaller heads.
01:28:16.000And then our heads are bigger, our bodies are smaller, we're weaker and softer.
01:28:21.000And then if you continue to move forward and we advance and evolve and eliminate a lot of the problems that human beings experience, whether it's because of war or crime or all these different things that trip us up as a society and as a culture,
01:28:39.000these things are all connected to tribalism and biology and emotions and the desire to sexually procreate.
01:28:49.000If they eliminate all of those things with technology over time, and you get these genital-less aliens that have these enormous heads and that don't communicate with mouth noises anymore, they communicate with thoughts, and they don't have the need for physical strength anymore,
01:29:08.000so their bodies are these tiny childlike things, but they have godlike powers.
01:29:14.000So is there a prerequisite And all of that for the reptilian brainstem to be eliminated.
01:29:24.000Is there the potential for either inanimate objects or combination biological material android type of objects to have consciousness?
01:29:49.000And what is it to be human in the first place?
01:29:53.000Well, if you have bred out or artificially created Something that is close to whatever perfect might be, as opposed to a human being that's very imperfect.
01:30:10.000A human being has all kinds of imperfections, all kinds of emotional imperfections and capabilities that go from here to here.
01:30:23.000And so that is what it's like to be a human being.
01:31:11.000Like we just saw, colignia, whether you think it's real or not, but there are many other demonstrations of being able to use consciousness, attention, as a force upon something.
01:31:23.000To either gather information you shouldn't be gathering from remote viewing, or moving an object, you know, it's a different kind of force.
01:32:20.000All of the human elements that we talked about, whether they're emotions or the desire to procreate sexually or jealousy and rage and territorial behavior,
01:32:36.000tribalism, all the awful and great things about human beings' ego.
01:32:42.000All those things lead people to want to do things, to get recognized, to get attention.
01:32:49.000And they also want to get recognized for their achievements.
01:32:52.000And they also want to push things past the boundaries that have been established by other people that are in the same business or the same creative venture as them.
01:33:02.000Whether it's artificial intelligence or whether it's art or creativity or music or anything that people do.
01:33:08.000They're always piggybacking on the work of the people that came before them.
01:34:53.000We work, we get ourselves together like human batteries, and we generate income and revenue, and we're all obsessed with making or buying better stuff.
01:35:39.000It leads to some sort of paradigm-shifting invention where all of these technologies piggyback onto themselves until we reach some sort of pinnacle of human achievement.
01:35:51.000And I think that's probably going to be some kind of artificial life or some sort of a symbiotic relationship I don't think it's enough,
01:36:10.000and I don't think it's altogether better.
01:36:14.000I don't think it's altogether better either, but I think it's going that way.
01:36:47.000What if you were to create a graph and on the graph were just two things, two lines, and you were tracking over the last 150 years spiritual maturity among the species.
01:37:05.000The 20th century was the worst annihilation of people, 60 million people ever, in terms of numbers.
01:38:39.000So if you don't have a grounding, though, in a solid spiritual philosophy in a species like us, like humans, then you're rolling the dice on handing A species that might be immature spiritually.
01:39:00.000Some very advanced, dangerous stuff that can be used as weaponry or just misused and abused in other kinds of ways.
01:39:12.000And maybe the species thinks it knows it all, and it's cavalier, it's careless about the disposition of the technologies.
01:39:19.000But more than likely, it's hostile, because things tend to be weaponized.
01:39:24.000So you wind up with a species that's more like the Klingons than you want.
01:39:29.000So you wouldn't want to be on some other planet and having these discover you, right?
01:39:34.000So I think those two lines are really important to try to harmonize.
01:39:39.000The problem is, there's no intersection in sight.
01:39:42.000In our lifetimes and other lifetimes, there's no intersections in sight.
01:39:47.000We haven't even begun to create a homogeneity of spirituality in the human species compared to the proliferation of technologies.
01:39:57.000So that incongruity can be a really serious problem someday.
01:40:05.000I mean, if we continue to concentrate only on things and on improving technology, but not improving the way we communicate with each other and love each other.
01:41:08.000But I know you think about these things, and I know you've thought a lot about consciousness, and this is one of the things that you've studied.
01:41:16.000One of the things you're involved in is the concept of whether or not consciousness extends beyond death.
01:41:33.000And the second Holy Grail is, are we alone?
01:41:36.000As you've said, and everybody kind of is attracted to that question.
01:41:41.000The other is, do aspects of your consciousness survive your bodily death?
01:41:49.000So, is there a difference between mind and brain?
01:41:55.000So, is brain the generator and mind is a reservoir and actually more causal than the brain is, in a sense?
01:42:04.000So, in theory, the question relates to, gosh, you are doing away with the brain if the container decomposes and dies and is permanently offline.
01:42:17.000Are there any aspects of your mind that continues?
01:42:42.000And that is just a relevant question today as ever because you have a lot of...
01:42:47.000Desparate kinds of folks' beliefs, and you have religions that are against that notion altogether, and so you have a huge amount of differences in people's philosophy, driven by religious beliefs or just the way they've arrived at their own conclusions or whatever.
01:43:08.000So you have to be respectful of all these different kinds of beliefs and try to yet approach that subject in a way that is somehow determinable.
01:43:25.000Try to arrive at something that maybe is not 100%, but can you find answers in different ways that drive you into the high levels, 80, 85, 90, 95%, that you're leaning towards that?
01:43:41.000That would be really good news if you could legitimately do that for yourself and know that you have something else in addition to this.
01:43:51.000That's always been what religions have strived for, right?
01:43:57.000To show people that there's something more than this life.
01:44:06.000It's their backyard, and there's all kinds of promises about what our backyard contains if you're a follower of our religions.
01:44:15.000Yeah, and the cynical people would always say, well, they're just trying to promise you that to get you to behave in this life, but there's really no evidence whatsoever that anything happens once you die.
01:44:24.000But then you have people that have had near-death experiences, and those are the weird ones, because they've had these near-death experiences, and they almost always come back saying it's going to be okay.
01:44:34.000They almost always come back going, there's something more to this.
01:44:37.000And we don't know what those near-death experiences are.
01:44:42.000We know that certain aspects of them can be recreated with psychedelic drugs.
01:44:47.000And we do know that the brain produces psychedelic drugs.
01:44:51.000Particularly DMT. And people that have had experiences on psychedelics have had these moments.
01:45:00.000Like Larry Haggard, the guy from Dallas.
01:45:23.000He had this home that operated off the grid and he had it all set up so it was really well insulated and solar powered and all this stuff so that he could not have a heavy carbon footprint.
01:45:35.000So they're talking about this and along the line they get to talking about his LSD experience and death.
01:45:42.000It was pretty trippy to see him say that and to see them going, oh.
01:45:46.000But many people that have had intense psychedelic experiences have had this thing happen to them where they believe they've gone to another dimension.
01:45:57.000They've gone to this other place that seems more real.
01:46:00.000From my own personal experiences, I've had these.
01:46:02.000Where you go to these realms that seem more real than the realm that you're living in and you encounter something.
01:46:10.000Whether this something is an imaginary or whether it's actually, you could put it on a scale and measure it.
01:46:17.000I'm not sure if it matters because it's still a thing you experience.
01:46:22.000Did you have, after these experiences, did you have any kind of evidence afterwards that you could draw a connection between what you saw in the visions and actually now what you discovered?
01:46:36.000I mean, was there anything that popped up later on that connected the two?
01:47:19.000That your ego and your desire to protect yourself from failing or from reality, that those things are ultimately very detrimental to your consciousness, very detrimental to the way you communicate with other people.
01:47:32.000And that it's a battle, a constant battle to abandon these monkey instincts that we all have.
01:47:39.000And that these things have protected us and gotten us to this stage, but they can ultimately trip you up as you try to sort of understand yourself better.
01:47:48.000You know, you're just hitting on something in the literature of survival of consciousness, of which there's hundreds or thousands of books that you could actually access and people to talk to.
01:48:01.000The message seems to be in the literature, abandonment of the ego is a very important thing to do.
01:48:09.000It's a very important thing as you've passed over.
01:48:11.000That's one of the things that happens, is to try to remove the ego and shove it aside.
01:48:41.000But the ego is also what keeps you alive.
01:48:43.000It's the thing that makes you want to be successful.
01:48:47.000It's the thing that makes you want to progress.
01:48:49.000It's the thing that makes you want to accomplish things.
01:48:53.000One of the keys to an actualized life is to Progress, move your motivation away from ego to the fascination in problem solving and acquiring skills and getting better at tasks.
01:49:12.000Is that there's something interesting in it.
01:49:15.000And especially if you're doing something that benefits other people.
01:49:18.000When it benefits other people that you get better at these things because these other people get to enjoy these things on a higher level.
01:49:23.000Then you get this cool feeling of actually...
01:49:27.000It's benefiting people, actually helping people with your fascination with these things.
01:49:32.000And the more you concentrate on the ego, the more it'll taint whatever progress you're making.
01:49:43.000So back to the near-death experiences, so let's suppose that You just look at the ones that come along naturally.
01:49:51.000Somebody has flatlined on an operating table, they've fallen through the ice, whatever.
01:50:01.000There are so many near-death experiencers.
01:50:06.000I've heard numbers that are ridiculous in the millions of people in this country, not just in the world.
01:50:14.000And so there's a hell of a lot of smoke.
01:50:19.000There must be an awful lot of heat somewhere in terms of the probability that this is real.
01:50:27.000Because other explanations are really tough.
01:50:29.000Now, you can have out-of-body experiences, and you can validate conversations in a room.
01:50:34.000You should have no way of understanding where tools were taken from what drawers or anything like that, what people look like, because you're gone.
01:50:56.000Every example you can possibly imagine.
01:50:59.000And so then you wonder, well, how can you correlate that?
01:51:07.000How can you correlate anything to do with did the person have an experience, not just through the tunnel, but what they saw afterwards in that period of time after they exited the tunnel into wherever they were?
01:51:21.000And how do we verify that what they actually saw was the other side?
01:51:28.000Not only that, you have different human beings with a different understanding of language.
01:51:33.000So they have limited vocabulary or limited ability to describe things or limited ability to express themselves.
01:51:39.000And maybe they're not so good at relaying what it was.
01:52:14.000People have a real fear of being ridiculed.
01:52:18.000To be ridiculed for a near-death experience is probably similar to being ridiculed for a UFO encounter or ridiculed for any other super spectacular thing that most people are never going to experience.
01:52:31.000So when you have talked about this the ability to measure whether consciousness exists outside of life how can that be measured and what steps can be made to try to quantify and to try to validate whether or not this is a real thing You don't want to hear this I do want to hear this All right.
01:53:00.000How can you say I don't want to hear this?
01:53:53.000And so that might be a way of verifying through this message that you had no other way of knowing or predicting that this was going to happen.
01:54:03.000There's also the subject of psychic mediums.
01:54:51.000And so, of course, you can't help yourself but try to get information that falls in the categories that they should have no way of knowing.
01:55:03.000In fact, you might not even know the information yourself at that moment in time.
01:57:14.000Yeah, you're launching less weight, so there you go.
01:57:18.000But all kidding aside, yeah, psychic mediums are a really good legitimate source of getting alternate information that helps to collaborate things maybe that have happened other ways or information that's come maybe from a near-death experiencer,
01:57:38.000But outside of psychic mediums, when you're talking about measuring whether or not consciousness exists outside of life, whether or not your consciousness somehow or another transcends your physical body.
02:00:50.000So that's one means of adding something to the menu.
02:00:56.000But when you're trying to measure whether or not consciousness exists outside of life, just because someone's automatically writing, they could be receiving some signal from someone that's still alive.
02:01:09.000If there is some sort of psychic communication, if there is a possibility of remote viewing and you can transmit information from person to person without words, and this is one of the ultimate goals of Neuralink.
02:01:23.000Elon Musk actually said You're going to be able to talk without using words.
02:01:27.000I mean, if human beings, if it's possible to do something along those lines, this could be a live person that's somehow or another projecting these thoughts and someone else is tuning into them in the same way you would tune into a radio signal.
02:01:44.000Okay, so the way you would test that is probably it's going to be What's the nature of the entire subject matter?
02:02:00.000Because at some point you're adding on so much weight and so many different variables that it stretches the credibility of that theory working.
02:02:14.000It's kind of like using ball lightning as an excuse for all kinds of things.
02:02:18.000When it has a very short life, usually travels in one direction, and it's very, very, very rare.
02:02:24.000So everybody uses Occam's razor as this is what you do.
02:02:29.000You want to go to what is the simplest solution instead of trying to find swamp gas to describe the craft that just landed.
02:02:37.000So, you know, I would say, hmm, that's probably testable.
02:02:44.000You could probably create the methodologies to do some laboratory-type tests on that.
02:02:51.000But my guess is that would fail as a solution.
02:02:56.000See, we're talking right now in these weird terms, because I don't know if that stuff's real.
02:03:03.000I could describe what I think would be wrong with these scenarios, but I don't know if any of this remote writing or automatic writing has been verified.
02:03:21.000They write things down that aren't true.
02:03:22.000It just means that we haven't set up experiments ourselves to verify it ourselves and actually watching, implementing it under controlled conditions, double-blind conditions.
02:03:34.000So what else do you have to resort to?
02:03:36.000It's what's in the literature thoroughly digest and pros and cons and everything from a lot of sources and people who have engaged in this And maybe they have film.
02:03:47.000Maybe they actually have film of the writing.
02:03:49.000And you compare the handwriting, maybe it's different handwriting altogether.
02:03:53.000Maybe it's in a different language completely.
02:03:55.000In fact, there are stories, a lot of accounts of exactly that.
02:03:59.000But this subject of consciousness and whether or not consciousness exists beyond life, this is something that's important to you.
02:04:04.000So I'd assume that you've looked into it further than just this idea of automatic writing being the only piece of evidence.
02:04:10.000Actually, that area is the least I've looked into.
02:04:14.000What's the area the most you've looked into?
02:04:18.000Well now, first of all, I have kind of recaptured this survival of consciousness inquiry that I was into in the 1980s and I have now formed an institute called BICS that started in June of last year.
02:10:09.000But I want to get to this idea that you're trying to pursue of measuring consciousness or trying to figure out whether or not consciousness survives death.
02:11:33.000So, you might be a producer or director of a television show for years, and you've got more stuff on film than you can imagine of different kinds of weird things happening that you have no explanation for any of that, and you've made a study of this for a long time.
02:12:55.000Second place gets 300, third place gets 150 grand.
02:12:59.000So if you have a semi-shitty near-death experience story, you get 150. It's an interesting way to do it, but I would hope there would be some better way to measure it.
02:13:15.000You know the expression extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
02:14:44.000And so he understands judging things and being a critical thinker.
02:14:51.000And so he really rounds out the group very well.
02:14:55.000And so the judges start August 1st, August, September, October, and then are supposed to be finished by November 1st and have made decisions.
02:15:07.000And we want to post all the three winners.
02:15:10.000And I suspect the judges are going to have a problem.
02:15:14.000It's going to be damn hard to pick three out of the group because this has generated a lot of interest and we have some really good folks into this.
02:15:27.000So we are going to get permissions as an applicant.
02:15:30.000They have to give us permission We don't own anything.
02:15:33.000We just want to put it on our website so people can read all the essays.
02:15:37.000So maybe we have 20, 25 essays, not just the three winners.
02:15:40.000So it's going to give people a chance to really read a lot of different kinds of arguments.
02:15:46.000By what metrics are you going to accept evidence of the afterlife?
02:18:01.000Yeah, but when they solve murder cases using mediums, if that has ever been real, and I've talked to some detectives that say that's all horseshit, because I did have a long discussion with someone who is, he's an investigative detective and he solves crimes,
02:18:16.000and he's like, there's no evidence that any psychics have ever given you any real information.
02:18:21.000Now, he hasn't investigated the subject.
02:18:22.000He has had probably one experience, maybe two, in this.
02:18:26.000This is his personal opinion on cases that he's been involved in, and maybe he's wrong.
02:18:41.000The difference is, you're convicting someone for something that absolutely happened.
02:18:44.000When you're talking about trying to figure out whether or not there's an afterlife based on the kind of evidence that would be used to convict someone of a murder, that doesn't necessarily work because we know for a fact that murder is real.
02:18:58.000We know for a fact that human beings are real and that if you kill them, you're a murderer.
02:19:28.000Put the seriousness of an event in terms of the harm it caused as being more legitimate than an event that actually produces information that you should have no way of acquiring.
02:20:37.000No one has definitely showed you that there's real evidence that consciousness survives death and you can talk to someone from beyond the grave.
02:20:46.000There have been a mountain of readings for sitters where the information comes that says something is going to happen.
02:21:09.000Like, for you to be so convinced, you should have things that you could pull out of the top of your head right now and tell me specifically that this event was predicted by this person and this is how it happened and there was no way they could have known about it otherwise.
02:21:21.000Otherwise, you shouldn't be convinced.
02:21:23.000The stories are in the tens of thousands.
02:22:40.000And therefore, if you argued with me and said, there has never been a UFC fight, I go, well, that's not true, because I could tell you specific dates, I can tell you what happened, what the result was, I can show you a videotape of it.
02:22:51.000You don't have that same knowledge of these things, but you have the same conviction that I have when I'm talking about things that are hardcore facts, like a mixed martial arts event, Or, you know, whatever.
02:23:03.000Fill in the blank with whatever the event you want it to be.
02:23:05.000You have the same sort of conviction that these things are real, but you don't have the same kind of hardcore evidence.
02:23:12.000Not only do you not have the same kind of hardcore evidence...
02:24:03.000Listen, like I'm saying, I have the same conviction in things that I know are real as you have when you're arguing that psychic ability is real.
02:26:41.000And the medium said to me, and I'm recording this, and the medium said, thank you, your wife wants to thank you for all the music that was played for her before she passed,
02:27:14.000Because I had recorded it, and we listened to the recording together after I had done the sitting, and my granddaughter says to me, Pop, don't you remember?
02:27:32.000Well, that's certainly interesting and unusual.
02:27:35.000So what I would, I don't know if she would do it, but I think she probably would be very interested since it's you, and because you are a big figure, that And you're easy to learn about.
02:27:51.000You'd go into this assuming, which she's a very, very honest person.
02:27:54.000But you would have to go into this assuming that everything about you is so public, you can find out a lot of things.
02:28:02.000Well, that's the problem that I always have with psychics.
02:28:04.000Don't tell me something that I already know.
02:28:06.000That's the challenge for her, is to tell you something that nobody else could possibly know.
02:28:13.000But even that, well, nobody else could possibly know is a stretch, right?
02:28:18.000But tell me something that I don't know.
02:28:22.000Whenever I've had friends that have gone and had psychic readings, I always say, well, how did they structure the questions?
02:30:06.000If someone actually can do this, that's pretty spectacular.
02:30:10.000But to my understanding, and I've spent a lot of time reading about these things and reading about skeptics and the James Randi challenge and all these different people that have tried to attempt to demonstrate psychic ability that no one has ever successfully done that.
02:31:27.000My problem is your conviction, your belief in this is so strong.
02:31:32.000Well, no, but what happened to the Joe of just a little while ago that says, yeah, there can be legitimate mediums, as opposed to saying, they're all fraud because I know a magician.
02:36:38.000Or do you think there's physical evidence that either our government or some other government has somewhere that could show beyond a shadow of a doubt?
02:37:08.000And that this was, although not evidence of extraterrestrial intelligence, seemed to indicate that because of the examination of these alloys, that this is not something that's mass produced in this country right now, or in any country right now.
02:37:23.000That this is something that if it was done, it would cost an insane amount of money to create, but yet here it is.
02:37:31.000Yeah, so people have pieces of things that are like that, that have been, I assume they've gone through electron microscope for a look-see, but they are very unique in how thin they are,
02:37:50.000how many layers of material they have, and the view The opinions are that we can't make them.
02:38:05.000And that these things have been recovered from crash sites?
02:38:28.000We've got together with the people at Stanford, and we've done these tests, and this is what we know, and here's the press conference, right?
02:39:12.000Other than Bob Lazar's experiences, which he has, of course, the most spectacular experience.
02:39:18.000I actually haven't been there at S4. You know, I wish there was a way we could convince whoever is in charge of that to allow people to film this, to allow people to examine this,
02:39:33.000to bring in the scientific community, if it is a real thing.
02:39:36.000But the other thing about the Lazar story was that Element 115. What are your thoughts on that?
02:39:46.000This was the idea that there was some super spectacular element that was a new version of propulsion.
02:39:54.000So instead of shooting something out of the back end, it was literally bending gravity.
02:40:38.000No, the conversations about it were somebody had taken his and he was I'm kind of regretful that he had let go of it in some way and he wanted to get it back.
02:41:34.000His diagrams of the UFO. Oh, I know what it was.
02:41:40.000Okay, getting back to these kinds of treasure.
02:41:45.000You were talking earlier that really what ought to happen is there ought to be a major program Where you're gathering all the best scientists to analyze the hell out of all these materials that have been retrieved.
02:42:18.000And it's come to be kind of corporate treasure.
02:42:24.000And national treasure at the same time, because there's a relationship between a company and the government that has this kind of treasure.
02:43:08.000And so it's drug out every 10 years, looked at to see if there's anything that has improved in 10 years on the understanding of X, Y, and Z that makes sense or has something else shifted?
02:43:23.000Has something else happened in the last 10 years that could make a difference on trying to understand the material?
02:44:09.000I would imagine because you're so open about your interests.
02:44:12.000That in your conversations with other people, whether it's at NASA, there's got to be other folks that also have similar interests that come to you and want to talk to you about these things.
02:44:26.000Yeah, so there's a community of people, not necessarily NASA people, but that...
02:44:59.000That corporations are involved because they recovered it or they acquired it and that if they were able to mass produce whatever these alloys are, whatever these particular properties of these metals are, there would be obviously some amazing commercial value for this stuff.
02:45:42.000That was one of the weirder stories about Roswell, was that they had not just recovered a crashed UFO, but they had recovered these alien bodies.
02:45:53.000What do you think about Jackie Gleason's wife's story about he and Richard Nixon?
02:46:29.000I mean, definitely love to drink and probably so fun to drink with.
02:46:32.000Him and Nixon are talking and Nixon says, you want to see a UFO? And takes Jackie Gleason to wherever it was, Hangar 18 or wherever it was where they had this UFO and shows him.
02:46:44.000And it apparently changed Jackie Gleason's life and he couldn't stop talking about it.
02:46:48.000And what I had heard was that he had it recreated in his backyard.
02:47:38.000And then when you take into account people like Commander David Fravor, who I've had the pleasure of sitting down talking to and listening to his explanation, and then when you realize that the way his vehicle, the vehicle that he observed, moved Mirrors what Bob Lazar talked about from 1990. Now we're talking,
02:47:59.000we're in this weird realm of like, huh.
02:48:04.000So if the government has it, I mean, shit, in the 1960s, when Nixon was president, and him and Jackie Gleason are partying, that's a credible story.
02:48:20.000I can't find the thing about the backyard, because it just keeps bringing up his UFO house he had in New York, which is like a UFO-shaped house and a bunch of interesting cool shit inside of it.
02:48:34.000On his arrival, armed guards took Gleason to a building in a remote location on the site.
02:48:38.000There, Gleason, who harbored an intense interest in UFOs, saw the embalmed bodies of four alien beings two feet long with small bald heads and big ears.
02:48:48.000He was told nothing about the circumstances of their recovery.
02:48:51.000He swore his wife to secrecy, but after their divorce, Beverly freely discussed the story.
02:48:59.000That's what happens when you divorce them!
02:49:02.000In the mid-1980s, when ufologist Larry Bryant sued the US government to get it to reveal its UFO secrets, he tried without success to subpoena Gleason.
02:51:00.000I'm trying to not get into conversations.
02:51:03.000So I think that because it's in the...
02:51:13.000I think there are enough different kinds of sources in the media about people seeing things.
02:51:19.000I did an interview years ago with Safro Henderson and Stan Friedman and Kevin Randall went to her house in California Because her husband was Pappy Henderson.
02:51:39.000And Pappy Henderson was one of the pilots that flew material, flew stuff out of Wright-Patt.
02:51:47.000And she said, he said, they were in a grocery store one day, and the Enquirer had a big article.
02:54:54.000The thinking is, first of all, it's a little bit bogus to think that the universe extends only as far as you can see, 13.5 billion light-years.
02:55:06.000I think they don't believe that, though.
02:55:08.000They think that's just as far as we can measure it, right?
02:55:12.000Well, they assume that the universe is expanding and they're judging that based on 13 and a half billion light years of sight.
02:55:23.000That may be a very, very small neighborhood.
02:55:25.000But that's as far as the cave wall is and you're not seeing beyond the cave wall.
02:55:30.000You're also telling me that you know a lot about the cosmos and you want me to believe you.
02:55:55.000I think what they're trying to tell us is this is what we know so far.
02:56:00.000I think that's what they're trying to tell us.
02:56:01.000I think they're as perplexed about dark matter and dark energy as we are, but they have a lot of information about background radiation, about the signals that seem to indicate...
02:56:40.000Then you wind up with this other conclusion that basically everything started from nothing.
02:56:47.000Well, they don't think it starts from nothing.
02:56:48.000They think it started from an infinitely small point that exploded in an instant and created all the matter that we see in the universe today.
02:57:43.000A certain kind of steady state of elasticity, expansion and contraction that continues to go on and on with the orderly force Being whatever dark energy and dark matter is to maintain organization, to maintain harmony and everything.
02:58:02.000So you reach maximum elasticity and then it starts to retract again.
02:58:07.000To your density is maximum density and you do this all over.
02:59:08.000Because there's just all these portals and inside each one of them, there's hundreds of millions of galaxies or hundreds of billions of galaxies.
02:59:39.000I don't think there ever was a beginning.
02:59:41.000I don't think there was an end to the universe.
02:59:44.000And so I think time is only relevant when it's connected to some kind of matter or electrical energy or like electrons or protons or something.
03:00:56.000Just what you're looking at on a night sky, on a clear night sky, if you're in a place with no light pollution, is so insane.
03:01:04.000The idea that there's some God force as well that makes all these things happen and creates all these things and there's actually like a good path and a bad path for at least sentient life forms and that there's some sort of ultimate goal for this matter coalescing.
03:01:35.000The thought could be what we were talking about earlier, that this could be how this human animal creates, how this human animal innovates, and how it interacts with other animals and gives it motivation to create and innovate, and this is what creates this new form of life.
03:01:53.000I've often said that I think that human beings might be some sort of We're good to go.
03:02:30.000And if this is what our goal is, just like a bee makes a beehive and we make things, what's the ultimate expression of those things?
03:02:38.000Well, the ultimate expression would be a new form of life.
03:02:41.000And it seems there's a lot of work being pushed in that direction.
03:02:45.000There's a lot of work being pushed in the direction of artificial intelligence, of robotics.
03:02:51.000I mean, there's so much Research that's going on right now to try to create these autonomous things that move around on their own.
03:03:02.000Whether it's autonomous soldiers for the battlefield, or whether it's drones that can fly themselves and operate on artificial intelligence.
03:03:11.000This direction is going to eventually, if you talk to people far smarter than me, like Elon Musk is terrified of it because he thinks it's unchecked and that it's going to lead to something that's super potent, sentient, far smarter than us and has no use for us.
03:03:37.000So then you keep it open that God can be a creator and can respond to the power of prayer.
03:03:42.000If you are praying for somebody, and there are a lot of studies that say the power of prayer works more than just a placebo kind of effect, that it actually works if you have a control group and a group that you're praying for and a group that's in a lot of tests like this that are double-blind tests.
03:04:01.000And it works in a laboratory kind of context.
03:04:06.000What is it that's responding to the request for prayer?
03:04:17.000I don't know that it's true that prayer works like that.
03:04:20.000I do know that the placebo effect works and I do know that the mind has extraordinary properties that we haven't harnessed.
03:04:27.000I do know that people have the ability to change their state of mind and it'll change their physical well-being.
03:04:33.000I do know that people have the ability to boost their immune system through breathing exercises and meditation and that we don't totally understand how they're doing that or why they're doing that or why we can't recreate that without that kind of discipline.
03:04:47.000There's a fellow who's written some good books.
03:04:51.000He's an MD, retired and I guess he left the hospital world because he was intrigued with the anomalies he found among his patients.
03:05:04.000And one of his books, I think, has something to do with the title of The Power of Prayer.
03:05:24.000And I think he gets into the investigation.
03:05:35.000I think that's also probably works in a negative way too, right?
03:05:38.000This is what the concept of voodoo was.
03:05:40.000The concept of voodoo was that someone puts a curse on you and they let you know they put a curse on you and then your life is fucked and then you get it in your head that your life is fucked and then you have this self-fulfilling prophecy.
03:05:50.000Well, supposedly the results under legitimate test conditions are that the results are greater than you can explain Otherwise,
03:06:08.000you may not even know that you're being prayed for.
03:06:10.000It's a controlled situation, so you don't even know that you're part of the group that's being prayed for.
03:06:15.000How would you measure that, though, when you're talking about response from illness?
03:06:18.000Everybody varies depending upon your immune system.
03:06:25.000I think that gets into how the tests are set up in order to make sure that they're balanced in the group, the sample group that's being prayed for, or the person.
03:06:50.000When you're loved, there's a feeling, a reaction.
03:06:54.000According to the literature, not just his book, but others, that it helps also the number of people that are praying for you and how committed everybody is to that, how earnest they are in the effort.