In this episode of the Joe Rogan Experience podcast, former U.S. Senator Chris Mellon talks about his interest in UFOs, his career in the intelligence community, and what it was like to be a member of the Senate Intelligence Committee during the height of the alien craze in the late 80s and early 90s. He also talks about what it's like being a UFO enthusiast in the early days of the Cold War, and how he dealt with the stigma surrounding UFOs at the time of the 9/11 attacks and the subsequent cover-up of evidence of alien contact with the alien race. Thanks to Chris for his candor and willingness to talk about UFOs, and for his courage in bringing up the topic. Joe also shares some of his own personal experiences with UFOs and their impact on his life and career, and offers some insight into the strange things he's seen and the people who have seen them. This episode is a must-listen for anyone with an interest in the UFO phenomenon. Check it out! All day, all day! -Joe Rogan Podcast by Night, All Day, All by Night. -The Joe Rogans Experience by Night Podcast by Day, By Night, By Day, by Day - All Day! All Day All Day by Night by Day! - By Night by Night! by Night All Day - By Day All by Day by Day All By Night! by Night By Day! by Day by Day By Night By Night - All By Day By Day by By Day by By Night All By Morning , All Day By Evening by Evening By Night all Day by Evening, By Evening by Day (By Night, by Night - By Evening, All By Evening By Day? (By Day) by Night (By Evening, by Evening) by Morning, By Even Day, all Day By Morning, by Even Day - By By Day... by Day...By Night By Evening...By Evening... By Night...By Day... By Day.... What's a Day? by Day? By Night? by Any Day? (By Any Day , By Day ? & Evening? , by Night Night? By Evening? By Day , By Night Night Night , etc., By Night?? And By Night ? By Any Night? by Night? , By Any Day ? , By Evening ? , By Day??
00:00:22.000My name is Chris Mellon, and I spent about 20 years working for Uncle Sam, worked in the Senate for the Intelligence Committee, and for Senator Cohen, also did some Armed Services Committee work.
00:00:34.000When he was asked to become Secretary of Defense, He asked me if I would like to go with him to the Pentagon, be part of his team, and I was honored and gladly accepted.
00:00:46.000So I then served for four years in the Defense Department with Senator Cohen, Secretary Cohen at that point.
00:00:53.000In various positions, all intelligence-related and security-related.
00:00:58.000And then I was asked to stay on after Clinton departed.
00:01:03.000And so I worked for Secretary Rumsfeld and then went back to the Senate Intelligence Committee as the Minority Staff Director shortly before the Second Iraq War.
00:01:16.000So when did you get interested in the subject of UFOs?
00:01:21.000That happened at a surprisingly early age.
00:01:24.000I was seven years old at a boarding school and the principal of the school, a friend of his, had photographed a video, an old reel-to-reel Kodak movie camera, had taken a movie, a home movie of a video of a UFO flying in Beautiful blue skies,
00:01:45.000cumulus clouds, huge golden disk that comes into the picture and banks, goes into a cloud, and it disappears into this sort of wispy cloud in a way that would be very, very hard, I think, to fake somehow, particularly in those days with no computer-generated imagery.
00:02:03.000And it comes out the other side and then sort of goes off over the horizon.
00:02:08.000And I was, you know, stunned and flabbergasted.
00:02:12.000Myself and all the other kids ran outside that night and were looking at the stars.
00:02:16.000And it just sparked my curiosity, a lifelong curiosity.
00:02:21.000So once you got into government, and once you were, I mean, you were there, you're basically there, you had to start asking questions.
00:02:39.000Very rarely, I looked for openings, I looked for opportunities.
00:02:43.000So, for example, you know, the stigma is so great that you're reluctant, obviously, to raise that issue.
00:02:51.000A couple times there were some natural opportunities.
00:02:54.000So one of my colleagues on the Intelligence Committee was going to Hawaii for some oversight trips, meetings, and he went to the Maui Space Optical Tracking Facility.
00:04:58.000I concealed my interest in the topic for years and very carefully and confided to a few trustworthy friends, had a few heart-to-heart talks with a couple individuals when I found a fellow traveler who was interested in this topic,
00:05:13.000but by and large, absolutely wanted to conceal that and not reveal that.
00:05:23.000He would be the guy that I would go to.
00:05:26.000There was a request that came to me once that I think was from President Clinton, and it was one of the astronauts claimed to have seen a UFO out at Edwards Air Force Base,
00:05:44.000And he described this in his memoir and wanted the president to get hold of the tape, of the video.
00:05:51.000And Secretary Cohen came back to the Pentagon from a meeting, and a message came down to me to go to try to find this tape.
00:05:58.000And unfortunately, I got nowhere with that.
00:06:04.000The Air Force was adamant that there was no such tape, there was no such information.
00:06:09.000Anything they had on UFOs had been destroyed.
00:06:12.000So I had one of these situations that's very common in this area, which is you have just Two apparently credible sources, but utterly conflicting, irreconcilable information, which seems to happen often in this field.
00:06:27.000Now, being as you were in government and very close to literally the machine that runs the world, what's the general perception when people are discussing these things in Washington?
00:06:44.000What's the general perception of what's going on with these things?
00:06:48.000Well, I'm happy to say that it's changed.
00:06:50.000That perception has changed considerably in the last few years.
00:06:53.000People feel like they have permission to talk about it.
00:06:56.000This happened after the New York Times article and subsequent press beginning in 2017, December 2017. And that sort of gave people permission to talk about this.
00:07:09.000And I've actually had Pentagon friends who said, you know, this is kind of cool.
00:07:12.000We don't have to go in the closet to talk about this anymore.
00:07:15.000What do you think kept it in the closet before?
00:07:23.000It was the Robertson Panel Commission, 1953, and they concluded during those Cold War days that this was a Potential threat to national security because UFO reports might overwhelm our air defense and communication system and that the Soviets might spook the public and somehow manipulate this issue.
00:07:46.000So they actually advocated in writing that this issue be debunked and discredited and the government went ahead and did so extremely successfully, unfortunately.
00:07:59.000And this all started with the Project Blue Book, correct?
00:08:41.000Because he was trying to carry out his mandate that the Air Force had given him.
00:08:46.000As you may recall, in one instance he went to Michigan and famously declared that the people of Michigan were misconstruing swamp gas for flying objects.
00:08:56.000And so Gerald Ford, who was representing that district, got incensed, as did the local population, and Congress took a fleeting interest in the topic.
00:09:05.000And Dr. Hynek was very embarrassed, and understandably so.
00:09:10.000It was really quite insulting to these people who had very clear sightings of these objects.
00:09:17.000So he did eventually change his view publicly and was very critical of Project Blue Book.
00:09:26.000Was all this stuff, like being inside the government and knowing how prevalent these sightings are and how credible some of them are, was it frustrating to you to be a part of this and to know that this information is kind of being squashed and distorted?
00:09:46.000What happened actually is that I wasn't seeing information squashed or distorted in the Pentagon or the intelligence community.
00:09:54.000I saw one instance of a very technical, very classified report that explained away some sightings that nobody even knew were being reported otherwise.
00:10:07.000It was kind of odd to see this explanation from About an incident that had not been otherwise reported.
00:10:20.000Doing reconnaissance missions who were seeing some very unusual lights.
00:10:24.000And the Directorate of Science and Technology at CIA did an extensive analysis and found a plausible explanation for what they had seen that was not extraterrestrial.
00:10:35.000And so they published an article on that.
00:10:37.000It was a good article, a good piece of research.
00:10:39.000But that was about the only time I ever saw anything in writing about this subject, which the government said it wasn't following, it wasn't interested in.
00:10:51.000I had a Navy friend who was a pilot, and he said, you wouldn't believe what happened at our base today.
00:10:55.000There was a plane up, and there was a UFO flying around it, and it landed, and he knew I was interested in this from college days, and he called me up with his hair on fire to tell me about this incident, but that kind of thing was not going up through channels.
00:11:09.000So people in the Pentagon, to the best of my knowledge, all the way up to the SecDef, were not hearing or seeing any of these reports.
00:11:16.000It wasn't until I met Lou Elizondo and his group and some of the Navy guys and talked to the pilots about what was happening on the East Coast from 2015 onward and the Nimitz incident that I found out that this activity had been going on and just wasn't being reported.
00:11:35.000So, was it that no one in the Pentagon was seeking this out?
00:11:38.000There wasn't a mandate to go look for it?
00:11:40.000There wasn't a department that was designed to seek these things out?
00:11:45.000What was the reason why it wasn't getting all the way to the Pentagon?
00:11:48.000Well, specifically in the case of the Navy in 2016, just today, I believe, or yesterday, DOD announced that they're going to do an IG investigation of this incident, of this phenomenon.
00:13:51.000And when Dave and the other F-18 landed, there was no interest on the part of the intelligence officers of doing anything really other than ridiculing them.
00:14:03.000So they came out, you know, with tin hats on and foil hats, and they were playing Men in Black's song or something.
00:14:11.000Phenomenal because there were so many witnesses and so many different sensor systems that were verifying independently the visual reporting.
00:14:22.000So there were multiple radars, there were infrared systems, perfect viewing conditions, broad daylight, middle of the afternoon, multiple aircraft, and all of the data agrees that these craft are doing things that we thought were impossible.
00:14:37.000And then there was also the thing that led them to see it in the first place was that he thought there was something under the surface of the ocean.
00:14:45.000What happened was he and his wingman were vectored to intercept that Tic Tac at that point when they arrived and looked down, they saw it moving around and they saw the water roiled.
00:14:57.000In fact, I think first they saw the water before they saw the Tic Tac.
00:15:05.000And then they saw the Tic Tac and then Dave dove down to get close to it and it reacted to his presence, turned around, Viewed him and then started taking countermeasures.
00:15:16.000And it was clear to the pilots in both aircraft that this thing maintained a dominant position throughout their engagement with it, that it could easily have done what it wanted to them.
00:15:29.000They had no chance really of getting behind it or getting the upper hand in that engagement.
00:16:16.000They didn't do it initially, but ultimately they didn't have much choice.
00:16:19.000And I think the reason that they finally did is because we had taken this issue to Congress.
00:16:29.000I contacted some former colleagues on the committee and said, you guys really ought to look at this.
00:16:34.000I mean, it sounds crazy, but give me a chance here.
00:16:37.000And so a couple of them started taking interest.
00:16:40.000Some of the staffers started meeting with some of the pilots.
00:16:42.000When they started requesting briefings, that Coming from the Senate Armed Services and Intelligence Committees, that went up the flagpole to the top.
00:16:50.000And the Navy brass and the senior Pentagon civilians in the Office of the Secretary of Defense became aware that these committees are taking an official interest now.
00:17:16.000The great shift in our time, from UFOs being ridiculed, being these silly things that tinfoil hat conspiracy theory people believe in, to the Defense Department agreeing that this is an issue.
00:18:21.000You know, it's one of those things like psychics and Bigfoot.
00:18:24.000You bring it up and people just automatically start rolling their eyes.
00:18:28.000But statistically, if you just look at the size of the universe and you look at the fact that there's so many Goldilocks zone planets that they've already discovered, and then also the wide variety of life that exists in various conditions on Earth,
00:18:48.000Whether or not these things are living in the ocean.
00:18:51.000This is what's bizarre to me, is there's a lot of these sightings.
00:18:54.000The one in Hawaii recently, and there's another one that Jeremy Corbell leaked, this photograph that shows something disappearing into the ocean.
00:19:03.000There seems to be multiple sightings and multiple witnesses that discuss things going into the ocean.
00:19:15.000In terms of backing up on your question there a little bit, you know, people ask me, do you believe in aliens?
00:19:23.000And that's really not the question or the issue for most people.
00:19:27.000There are probably, in an infinite universe, an infinite number of alien civilizations.
00:19:32.000The question is, you know, could we ever communicate with them or have contact, right?
00:19:36.000So what's interesting about that to me, in part, is that We have NASA spending billions to try to find alien life, even if it's microbial.
00:19:46.000We have Yuri Milner spending hundreds of millions and supporting the SETI program.
00:19:51.000And meanwhile, we have these things flying around our atmosphere.
00:19:55.000That we're seeing on the radar that kind of look and act like what you might expect if somebody sent a probe.
00:20:01.000If somebody followed the trajectory, we're on ourselves today.
00:20:05.000And they're doing incredible things that we don't understand, and yet the scientific community and the government have not wanted to dare to ask the question in this context that they ask every day in this other context with NASA and spend billions of dollars on.
00:20:26.000You know, scientifically, we would expect actually, you know, they're listening for these signals from outer space, but it's more efficient to send probes and it's safer.
00:20:36.000And that's what we are doing ourselves.
00:20:38.000And so that's what would probably be more likely.
00:20:44.000It wouldn't reveal the location or the source of the civilization that was sending it.
00:20:50.000You know, it's more dynamic and versatile.
00:20:53.000It could get closer to the target, etc.
00:20:55.000There's all kinds of advantages, including energy.
00:20:59.000And it would be easy for a civilization more advanced than ours, we're getting on the cusp of this ourselves, to create using artificial intelligence probes that were self-sufficient, launch them out in whatever numbers, let them go see what they find and report back.
00:21:18.000There's no scientific reason for thinking that that couldn't happen.
00:21:22.000Moreover, if even one spacefaring society started to expand outward as we are in our galaxy, in the Milky Way, within a tiny fraction of the lifetime of the Milky Way, they could explore and colonize the entire galaxy.
00:21:38.000So even if, you know, they haven't achieved superluminal travel, they can't violate the speed of light and go faster than that, if they went, say, 20% the speed of light, And just continued to steadily expand their domain and explore outward in the space of two or three million years,
00:21:56.000they could have gone from one end of the galaxy to the other.
00:21:59.000So, you know, it's not an unreasonable proposition.
00:22:25.000And he doesn't propose to say where it's from.
00:22:28.000Some people suspect, as you suggest, that it could be ultra-terrestrial.
00:22:33.000It could be something inherently from our planet under the ocean that's been here forever.
00:22:38.000For a long, long time, perhaps a way station that some AI established that just is a waypoint here and monitors what's going on in this planet and stays under the ocean, comes out, looks around, reports back,
00:22:54.000and just has been doing that for thousands of years, but not aliens coming and going.
00:23:00.000There's all manner of theories, that's one of them.
00:23:03.000But I would say that on the inside, the people that are really close to this in the Pentagon, They face the dilemma we all face, which is what hypothesis can explain what we're seeing that is prosaic,
00:23:19.000that doesn't involve either extraterrestrials or ultra-terrestrials or something like that.
00:23:24.000It's very hard for us to believe that the Chinese or the Russians are that far ahead of us in such basic technology, such fundamental technologies.
00:23:36.000Perhaps it's true, and that's Got its own set of problems, but either way, we need to get to the bottom of it.
00:24:01.000And from the radar data, they should be able to gain some real insights as to where these things are coming from and going to, trajectories, speeds, all that kind of thing.
00:25:26.000They were very rigorous in the manner in which they operated as a unit.
00:25:32.000They clearly intended to get our attention.
00:25:34.000They were operating in a manner that suggests they were trying to provoke our air defense systems, see how we would react, you know, maybe see what frequencies we start communicating on, what actions we take, and so forth.
00:25:48.000It's the kind of thing we sometimes do ourselves to the potential adversaries to help game the situation out.
00:25:56.000You know, I have a completely open mind on it.
00:25:59.000I just want to see the evidence, but there's some features of this that if they are drones, they're probably more advanced than anything we have.
00:27:24.000And there was three of them that they tracked, right?
00:27:26.000I think that's the right number, yeah.
00:27:28.000The thing about these things is, yeah, it's extraordinary, it's crazy looking, it's weird to see these pyramids floating through the sky, but they're not moving like the tic-tac.
00:27:37.000It's not doing something that we can't do.
00:27:39.000It's just, you see them move around, it's really weird, but it's...
00:27:44.000It's not definitive evidence of anything at this point.
00:27:48.000It's strange, it's peculiar that it's happening around a warship, and that our guys don't know what it is, and it looks like some of these things are entering and leaving the water, which is...
00:28:07.000And now we're finally getting some traction and getting the government to say, you know, yeah, we probably really ought to pay attention to this.
00:28:13.000Do you think that there's more frequent sightings, or do you think they're being reported more now?
00:28:21.000There are certainly more reports coming in, civilian and military.
00:28:26.000The technology that we have today is leaps and bounds over what we had even a few years ago in terms of resolution, distance, range, all those kinds of things.
00:28:38.000The latest generation of radars that are being deployed are a huge step forward from what was in the fleet just a few years ago.
00:28:46.000So that is probably leading to some reporting that we didn't have before, things that were out there, but the radar cross-section was so low they weren't appearing on people's scopes.
00:28:55.000So I think it's probably a mixture of things, but what is concerning in part is that some of this activity is more in-your-face kind of stuff.
00:29:03.000It's more like not elusive, you know, on the edge.
00:29:28.000And haven't there been reports of them showing up around missiles and doing something with the launch codes or stopping the power from working in these places or something along those lines?
00:29:40.000Some sort of manipulation of the power systems, almost to let you know.
00:29:46.000Yeah, this is one of the most provocative and fascinating and important stories in this whole area of UFOs and national security.
00:29:55.000And we have retired Air Force officers who've testified to this, and there are FOIA documents that support these claims.
00:30:02.000But the Air Force has never been asked by Congress or anyone to address this.
00:30:43.000Because of the stigma, Congress has been unwilling even to ask the question, even in private.
00:30:50.000Even though this is very well documented and these people have come out in their retired uniforms and things and with their documentation showing where they were assigned.
00:31:01.000In one of these cases, out at Malmstrom Air Force Base, I believe it was, there's a good book because the local sheriff was responding to so many calls from civilians in the area to UFOs that were being seen and encountered.
00:31:14.000He co-authored a book on what was happening.
00:31:16.000So there's a lot of data about this, but yet there's no official confirmation that that occurred.
00:31:22.000Yeah, the sheer volume, I would like to know whether or not they are increasing in volume or whether or not it is just an increase in our ability to detect them.
00:31:35.000Because it's been 2017, so it's not that long ago, four years when it really started being something that people were willing to take seriously.
00:31:43.000Because of the New York Times article and because there's just a few videos that are pretty extraordinary.
00:31:49.000The go fast video when you hear the pilots going, what the fuck?
00:31:52.000And you're watching that thing buzz across the water with no heat signature.
00:31:57.000In terms of reporting, there has definitely been an increase, a surge the last 12 or so months.
00:32:04.000And you see this on the public side with organizations that track these things, the Mutual UFO Network and so forth.
00:34:11.000There have been some mass sightings in Brazil and other places.
00:34:14.000The Phoenix case, what I find most intriguing about that, one of the things, is that Fife Symington, the governor of Arizona, who's a former Air Force officer, himself said after the fact, he saw this thing and it was not a plane, it was not flares,
00:35:13.000And so that muddies the waters, right?
00:35:15.000I think they determined there were actually some aircraft doing an exercise to drop some flares, but this seems to be something apart from that, at least, what Fife Simeton and many others reported, hard to reconcile with the flare exercise.
00:35:31.000Well, the problem with the flare analogy is unless the flares are suspended with balloons where they were slowly lowering from the sky, it doesn't make any sense.
00:36:30.000It doesn't look like a flare to me, also the way flares illuminate, the way they radiate light.
00:36:37.000It could be some different kind of flare.
00:36:39.000It could be, instead of a flare, it could be some sort of massive LED light.
00:36:45.000Because the sheer size, too, when you look at them hovering over the city, you have to take into account that, if you look at that image right there, You have to take into account everything you're looking down there is buildings and windows and street lights and all that jazz.
00:36:59.000Those things have to be massive to make that much illumination while they're in the sky.
00:37:05.000If you just had a flashlight and you were hanging a flashlight in the sky, like what is that?
00:39:38.000I agree with you that the big one was the New York Times, but I also think the Bob Lazar documentary was a big one too.
00:39:45.000Because when you listen to Bob talk over long periods of time, and you hear him describe what it is that he saw, what he supposedly worked on in the late 80s, and the way he described the propulsion system, which is exactly the same way that tic-tac thing moves.
00:41:16.000Yeah, and there's a strong headwind, so it can't be a balloon.
00:41:20.000The headwind's like 120 knots or something.
00:41:24.000And then off-camera, as I said, you've got this formation approaching, this V-shaped formation of craft, and they don't have transponders either.
00:41:31.000What the hell are they doing in there?
00:41:32.000And did they get footage of the formation?
00:42:13.000I wonder why they've decided to approve that for public release.
00:42:18.000Well, there were some people on the inside who were worried that this issue was not getting any attention and were very concerned about what was happening, very concerned about the national security situation.
00:42:31.000I had actually introduced Lou Elizondo, who was leading a small effort in the Pentagon to try to track this activity, to two people who were direct reports to General Mattis.
00:42:43.000And so when I first found out this was going on and it was falling through the cracks, I thought, well, maybe we can get this up to the front office and at least make them aware.
00:42:54.000And unfortunately, after several meetings and bringing pilots in, these individuals became aware that, yes, indeed, something is happening.
00:43:05.000But they were concerned that General Mattis might be contaminated politically from even taking a briefing.
00:43:13.000They were very protective of his reputation and his stature, which is understandable.
00:43:19.000You mean contaminated if he took a briefing?
00:43:22.000People would question his sanity or something.
00:43:26.000So they didn't want that to happen, and this was kind of happening out of normal channels, which are It's suffocating in the Defense Department.
00:43:34.000Normally, any memo to go to the SecDef has to get routed through like 14 or 17 different offices.
00:43:42.000And if they have a question, it stops the process and they have to be briefed and convinced to sign on.
00:43:47.000And then it goes into a line with thousands of other packages.
00:43:51.000So this is an attempt to sort of expedite this and get it to a senior level.
00:43:55.000Is that one of the more extraordinary things about the fact this stuff is being released, the fact that everything generally does have to go through so many levels, that they are kind of throwing their hands up in the air and going, we have to do something or say something?
00:44:08.000Well, there were a few, I won't call them whistleblowers, but there were a few people who were very concerned and willing to take this out of normal channels because It wasn't even that people were having trouble moving along.
00:44:47.000I know for certain in the case of the Tic Tac in 2004 with Commander Fravor that the Princeton was guiding them with its Aegis radar to the intercept point and tracking it afterward when it went to the cap point.
00:45:02.000In this case, I suspect it was a ship guiding them, but it may have been their onboard radars because they have very sophisticated radars.
00:45:12.000And the pilots that I've spoken with out there said, we would see these things all the time.
00:45:48.000It's mostly a desert, a giant wet desert, right?
00:45:51.000Yeah, it's vast and largely unexplored and unknown and inaccessible.
00:45:56.000We do have the ability to, if we become interested in a particular area, To really do some serious reconnaissance underwater, we have resources, but again, somebody has to make a decision.
00:46:10.000How specific do we have to be in terms of, like, it's not like they can look at the entire Pacific Ocean, right?
00:46:15.000Certainly not, but, you know, with bottom scanning, sonars, and things like that, they can cover pretty large areas.
00:48:33.000There's no way you're going to see the whole thing.
00:48:35.000What's interesting, I mean, from overhead imagery now, even commercial imagery, with artificial intelligence, You know, we're able to pretty much map the world every day, and if you have a particular profile you're looking for with these computer algorithms, you can search all that imagery fairly quickly.
00:48:53.000So, the reconnaissance capabilities are extensive, and you can cover large areas, particularly if you're looking for a particular thing, and you can describe it well, so that if it sees a match, if the computer sees a match,
00:49:10.000There is a lot, there's just mountains of data coming into this panoply of sensors that we have from thousands of miles out in space to closer in space to the air, ground, sea, undersea.
00:49:24.000There's a layer, a mesh network around the entire planet, essentially.
00:50:07.000There was a sub accompanying the Nimitz carrier battle group, and it didn't detect anything in the water.
00:50:14.000So there may be an ability to move underwater and remain undetected, much as there's an ability in the air to go at supersonic speeds without creating a shockwave.
00:50:26.000Whatever this technology is, it has some very unusual properties.
00:50:30.000Yeah, that's the bizarre thing, right?
00:50:54.000When you watch him talk and you hear him give his description of his time working there and what he saw and what he thinks those things are, what was your take on that?
00:51:06.000I thought it was curious and interesting.
00:51:08.000I mean, I've been to Area 51. I didn't see any flying saucers or anything like that.
00:51:44.000The complexity of it, and the fact that he talked about Laurentium, for example, and Then decades later, it turns out that apparently there is a more stable form of that.
00:52:59.000He said that he was working on something for the government, and they sent him to MIT to...
00:53:08.000Learn something and he I can't say too much I'll tell you off air because he told me not to talk about it but it makes more sense when you hear his description of it that essentially It wasn't documented that he was studying there because what he was doing was Really a terrible thing a terrible experiment.
00:53:27.000They're working on when I explain to you Maybe it'll make more sense.
00:53:45.000Now, some people are really good at lying.
00:53:47.000And, you know, I've been tricked before, and I'm sure you have, too.
00:53:50.000There's some people that are just sociopaths.
00:53:52.000They're really good at Yeah, they don't even like know they're lying.
00:53:55.000They're like convinced in their own head while they're spinning it.
00:53:58.000He's obviously though, he's obviously very intelligent and he obviously knows a lot about science.
00:54:03.000He knows a lot about propulsion systems and he really did work at Los Alamos, which is interesting because he's actually on the employee roster and they tried to say that he didn't.
00:56:11.000When he was working for a logging company and encountered an object and went missing for several days and came back with this fantastic story of being abducted by aliens.
00:56:23.000Yeah, I had the pleasure of meeting him once with two of my boys and listened to his story and read the book and so forth.
00:56:57.000I asked him a couple of questions and he gave quick, rapid answers.
00:57:02.000Of course, he's been telling this story for a long time, but he didn't sound like someone who had to pause and What am I going to say with this?
00:57:09.000It seemed very natural talking about it.
00:57:13.000According to that story, as you know, he woke up on an examination table, Lashed out.
00:57:21.000He runs into the hallway, runs into another room, and these very Nordic-looking individuals come in and settle him down and escort him out and so forth.
00:57:32.000And days later, he wakes up next to a road hundreds of miles from where he was last seen.
00:57:41.000What do you do with a story like that?
00:57:43.000It's so hard to independently confirm anything.
00:57:46.000There's nothing that contradicts his story that we have.
00:58:56.000Yeah, that's, you know, there are a number of cases actually like that where people are visibly affected and physically ill and have, you know, red marks on their skin and very ill.
00:59:12.000And they're not well known those cases.
01:01:29.000You know as well as I do, the human memory is this incredibly flawed thing.
01:01:35.000And so if you're in a state like hypnosis and someone starts suggesting to you that perhaps you were involved in some incredible experience and so was your husband and this is what he saw and did you see something similar?
01:01:56.000I think most cases of alleged abductions that rely on that, you can't really assign any credibility to it.
01:02:04.000What was interesting about the Hill case was that they had an individual who was trained and did not believe in this phenomenon, was not trying to lead them to that outcome.
01:02:45.000Dr. Mack was a Harvard psychiatrist and faculty member, and he began studying people who thought they'd been abducted and became persuaded eventually that this was really happening to them in some cases.
01:02:58.000Not all cases, but in some cases, he believed they really were having these experiences, or at least they sincerely thought they were.
01:03:05.000I'm not sure he necessarily went to the point publicly of saying, yeah, I think aliens are coming down and scarfing them up, but I think these people are telling the truth as they understand it.
01:03:15.000And you mentioned the case, the aerial case, in the former Rhodesian Zimbabwe.
01:03:22.000He traveled there, interviewed the kids.
01:03:24.000You can see this in the documentary, The Phenomenon.
01:03:57.000And it's one of those subjects, it's so, for whatever reason, it just hits that part of the brain that wants to believe.
01:04:03.000I don't think there's another subject on earth other than maybe possibly religion that hits that part of the brain like the alien abduction or UFO phenomenon does.
01:04:53.000I think there are some tests now that they're not being used for that purpose, but the government's done a lot of research, and I think there are things right now where they can see, kind of understand what you're thinking as you're thinking it, and observe how the brain acts when people are lying versus when they're not lying,
01:05:09.000but I've seen some write-ups on some of this.
01:05:31.000So they might see the brain reacting as though it were either lying or telling the truth, but you'd have to probably be further down the path than we are today to know whether that could be a recalled memory, whether that's all you're observing, maybe an implanted memory.
01:06:09.000I can only imagine trying to decipher that and then if I had to sit here and explain it to you and be completely honest about my experience, boy, I don't know if I could.
01:06:21.000I don't know what I would get out of that, how much juice I would squeeze out of that.
01:07:07.000We were hiking in Wyoming, my wife and I, and she was ahead of me on the trail.
01:07:13.000And all of a sudden, and I was trying to make noise once in a while, and I was hiking with the bear spray in my hand because I was taking that threat very seriously.
01:07:22.000And all of a sudden there was this spine-tingling roar.
01:07:25.000I mean, I'm coming to kill you right now.
01:08:15.000I think if it had been a female bear with cubs, I'm not sure that would have worked.
01:08:19.000But in this case, after seeing that we weren't attacking him, I guess, you know, when you surprise a grizzly, they have this adrenaline gate that opens and they're full on.
01:08:29.000They just go nuclear immediately, not like a black bear.
01:08:36.000But there was enough time lapse, I think, between the startle and when he got up on the trail and was getting the pepper spray and saw us that he then walked, turned around and went up the trail the other way.
01:08:48.000But yeah, your mind does unusual things when you get in circumstances like that.
01:08:56.000Well, like I said, it was kind of a dissociated state, I think.
01:08:59.000I felt almost like I was in a dream state.
01:09:04.000And part of me was questioning, is this a dream?
01:09:08.000Because this was kind of a nightmare situation.
01:09:11.000It's like the ultimate worst thing I ever want to have happen.
01:09:14.000My wife and I get chewed up by a grizzly bear.
01:09:17.000And so I was thinking, you know, is this like almost pinching myself literally, you know, because I was questioning, could this really be happening?
01:09:27.000And yet you're on autopilot, and you're just kind of doing what you need to do.
01:09:32.000So in this case, it was getting the pepper spray up, taking the safety off, and just putting as much of that between us and the bear as I could, and not running.
01:09:41.000I think years later I was talking to a game guy in Africa, and he said, I told him my story.
01:09:48.000He had a lot of better stories than mine.
01:09:50.000But he said, well, you know, mate, why you lived?
01:11:02.000It's an 11-foot bear just charging them and knocked them over.
01:11:07.000One of their friends actually wound up on top of the bear's back as it was running down the hill for a brief amount of time.
01:11:15.000So for a second or so, it was actually literally riding this bear's back.
01:11:20.000and these guys all got out of it okay they all got out of it alive the thing ran off and it huffed it didn't i don't think it understood how many people were there it was a large crew filming a television show and so as it ran off uh it went into the woods for a second then it was barking at them from the woods they all had guns but they didn't have the guns ready they were eating lunch at the time i'm surprised they didn't have their guns ready because i've been hunting up there For caribou and mountain goat and other things.
01:11:46.000And when you do have one of those kills, when you go back to it, everybody knows that bears like to move in on those.
01:11:51.000And, you know, they'll just sleep next to it, just wake up, roll over, and start munching again.
01:11:56.000They even found bear shit as they were walking back.
01:11:59.000They found a pile of bear shit near the carcass.
01:12:05.000They'll go to a carcass or shoot something, leave it out there, and they just keep visiting the carcass.
01:12:09.000So I'm surprised they were caught off guard that way, but thank goodness everybody came out.
01:12:15.000A famous wildlife photographer was actually killed very recently in Montana.
01:12:19.000See if you can find this, Jamie, because this guy has an amazing Instagram page.
01:12:23.000And on his last post, which was just a few days before he was killed, he had a really cool photo of a grizzly bear, and he said he managed to get, because he had apparently been fly fishing, and he managed to get that close to the bear because he had smelled like he'd been catching trout all day.
01:12:45.000So the bear actually got close to him.
01:12:47.000And apparently what had happened was he inadvertently stumbled upon a bear that had killed a moose.
01:12:53.000And the bear was protecting the moose.
01:12:55.000And I guess he was just trying to get a photograph of it or something.
01:12:58.000The bear mauled him and just tore him apart.
01:13:01.000And I think he died on the way to the hospital.
01:14:02.000Well, my friend John, John Rivett, he actually runs a hunting camp in Alberta.
01:14:08.000And he's blown pepper spray from a tree stand at a grizzly bear.
01:14:14.000And he said the bear just walked right through like it was nothing because he was angry.
01:14:18.000You know, this is funny because some of the pepper spray, a little bit of it got on me and more got on my wife because she was just in front of me between me and the bear.
01:14:28.000And it took like 60 seconds before you started to feel, there was a lag after you got the pepper spray on you between when it started to burn and then it would get more intense.
01:15:33.000He was doing what you're never supposed to do.
01:15:36.000He was also there past the time when the bears were supposed to be hibernating, so the only bears that are outside of hibernation are really desperate for protein, desperate for fat.
01:15:46.000They'll eat anything, and they decide, I think I'm going to meet this dude.
01:17:40.000I've seen video of a female grizzly whose cub got swept away in the current and washed down in front of a big male who is Fishing for salmon.
01:17:51.000And the males swiped at the cub, and sometimes the males will kill the cubs and eat them.
01:17:56.000And the mother went after him, and it was much like what we experienced when we were hiking.
01:18:39.000We live in houses, and we drive in cars, and we fly in planes, and we have guns, and we can go to the zoo and see a bear.
01:18:47.000But when you're out in the woods, and there's no rules, and they're acting on the laws of nature, I just don't think most people have any idea what that life is like.
01:18:56.000Their life is just ruthless and short.
01:19:00.000It lasts for like, you know, if they're lucky, they get 14, 15 years out of it, and by the time they're dead, all their bones are fucked up, and their face is torn apart by other bears, and they kill things with their face for a living.
01:19:44.000Well, yeah, I believe people see things they don't identify they can't identify.
01:19:47.000But that's not what people are thinking.
01:19:49.000That's not what they think they're asking you.
01:19:51.000So people wanted a term that was a little more neutral.
01:19:54.000Is the worst case scenario that they are beings from another planet or another dimension or is the worst case scenario that these are things that China has developed or Russia has developed and they're so far technically superior to us that we can't even imagine?
01:20:13.000That's interesting because both situations in a worst case could lead to a similar outcome.
01:20:19.000The Chinese are employing AI and information technology In a truly Orwellian fashion, they are creating a state in which they can monitor what virtually every conversation,
01:20:35.000people's movement, people's employment, their location, they've got facial recognition detectors, they've got every cell phone, it's got like a patriotic scorecard on it which they can download at a checkpoint.
01:20:50.000And as they continue to perfect that and implement that, you get a vision of It seems very alien of where you extrapolate that out 20 years.
01:20:59.000You've got absolute power and control at the top like a dysfunctional Hollywood sci-fi movie.
01:21:06.000So it's conceivably almost as bad as the worst case scenario of aliens coming in.
01:21:14.000When you think about space and this infinite ocean and the shores it washes up on and the things that are in the shadows out there, You know, there's no end to where your imagination can go.
01:22:05.000We would hope that these things from another planet are far more advanced in us technologically and hopefully far more advanced than us spiritually, the way they communicate.
01:22:19.000Maybe they're not warlike at all, which is why there's been no stories about them attacking and killing people or blowing up bases or doing anything crazy when they've been Chased by jets.
01:22:30.000They seem to be completely benign in that respect.
01:22:35.000So I think the best case scenario at this stage would be that they're aliens.
01:23:11.000The human animal in just, in general, amazing, beautiful, incredible creations, wonderful creativity, but also frightening in our anger and our ability to lash out and attack.
01:23:24.000I would hope that these beings that can travel across the galaxy would be far past all that stuff.
01:23:32.000Because if it is Russia, or if it is China, You know, they're gonna be like, look, I'm a proud American, and I would like to think that the way we behave and the way we have governed in terms of the way we've used our superpower,
01:23:50.000although not perfect, has been better than if it was Communist China that was in the CCP that was in the same position.
01:23:58.000I would think that we've done a far better job.
01:24:01.000I would think that we're certainly not as draconian in the way we treat our citizens.
01:24:07.000We certainly don't do things to our citizens in this current age the way they did to the Uyghur Muslims.
01:24:12.000There's a lot of things that I like about the United States.
01:24:16.000But if the United States had the kind of power where they could just travel through the galaxy and they could just show up outside of nuclear bases in China and do whatever the fuck they wanted and just disappear into the ocean and we were the only ones that had it, that would disturb the shit out of the rest of the world, right?
01:24:31.000Even though we are the preeminent superpower.
01:24:34.000Even though we are, you know, we're the number one military power on Earth right now, currently, for the time being, right?
01:24:41.000I wouldn't want us to have that kind of advantage over the rest of the world.
01:24:45.000But if anybody did, I'd want it to be us.
01:24:47.000But I definitely don't want it to be China, right?
01:25:05.000It would be very surprising and stunning if they had independently developed technology that was that far ahead of everything else and everyone else somehow secretly.
01:25:19.000So it doesn't seem likely and we don't think that's the case.
01:25:25.000So more likely ultra-terrestrial or extraterrestrial.
01:26:44.000Well, there's some books about Roswell.
01:26:47.000There's some other cases like that where people have come forward and said, I was in the military and I was at this, you know, retrieval where I was a kid and I saw this thing crash and I ran up to it and I saw what was inside it and blah blah blah.
01:27:02.000There are some, in fact, there's some investigation going on right now on a new case.
01:27:13.000I think the way it would probably play out in our government is that...
01:27:17.000It would be so deeply squirreled away that you wouldn't be able to bring in the best scientists.
01:27:23.000You wouldn't be able to bring in world-class scientists.
01:27:27.000You would have available maybe a few people inside some aerospace company, and they'd probably be very hamstrung in their ability to test and examine the material and so forth.
01:27:38.000And, you know, it'd just be locked away somewhere.
01:27:40.000That's the argument for Bob Lazar, because Bob Lazar, at least on paper, is not a top scientist.
01:27:46.000He was a guy that had not the best credentials in terms of his education, but was clearly a very intelligent guy who was fascinated with propulsion systems, put a jet engine in the back of his car.
01:27:59.000He was kind of a wacky, super genius dude.
01:28:03.000And when you think about his description of how they ran the program, it's even more in line with what you would do with something that was incredibly top secret, whereas everything's compartmentalized.
01:28:14.000The metallurgy people didn't talk to the propulsion people.
01:28:16.000The propulsion people didn't talk to whoever else was on the project.
01:28:23.000I'm not saying that there's no reason to believe we might have some recovered debris.
01:28:28.000I'm skeptical about some of his claims.
01:28:42.000Like 21 levels of security clearance above top secret or something.
01:28:48.000There's no security system like that that I've ever heard of.
01:28:52.000So there are things like that that don't make sense for somebody who's been an insider.
01:28:58.000Is it possible that there might be something like that when it gets to a program that's as bizarre as back engineering extraterrestrial vehicles that they might put in place additional levels of top secret clearance?
01:29:14.000Especially when you're talking about compartmentalizing all these different aspects of the project?
01:29:35.000So, you know, in the classified world, you've got the intelligence community and it has its own procedures and so forth.
01:29:42.000Then you've got Defense Department black programs, which are a different world.
01:29:46.000And there's a little bit of overlap in a Venn diagram sense.
01:29:49.000And then you've got Department of Energy, which has billions of dollars in black programs, tens of billions, and very little oversight.
01:29:57.000So they have a system and a different clearance, which is a result of the Atomic Energy Act, not an executive order, which establishes the classification for the rest of the government.
01:30:10.000So some things like that's not impossible.
01:30:15.000Now, the Roswell story is a fascinating one because there was an uptick in UFO sightings, or at least reported sightings, that came after World War II. And the idea is, amongst the UFO cognoscenti,
01:30:32.000Is that they were aware that we had detonated nuclear weapons and that we had blown up Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
01:30:40.000And they're like, okay, these crazy fucks are taking us to a new place.
01:30:45.000Let's zoom in and see what's going on down there.
01:31:00.000And when you look at the behavior of the objects that we're seeing, it's consistent with the possibility that maybe somebody has an interest in something here they want to protect.
01:31:12.000And if we were to have a nuclear war, it might compromise that interest.
01:31:15.000So maybe they have a stake in some resource here or some capability or genetics or just whatever.
01:31:24.000Maybe it's an experiment and Petri dish somebody started a long time ago.
01:31:29.000They want their experiment to run to its conclusion.
01:31:40.000Probes that are, you know, artificial intelligence probes that have the capability perhaps to manufacture or print robots or beings or maybe even genetically create something when it arrives at a destination.
01:31:59.000They could travel through space for hundreds of years or thousands of years, arrive at a destination, consuming very little energy in the hallway, all of a sudden, boom, and they create on board some beings that can operate things and perform tasks that are short live for that purpose.
01:32:29.000And when you think about what's happening currently with human civilization, if you take it from the advent of the nuclear bomb to where we are today with this weird situation with Russia and China and just even almost like a civil war, which is potentially possible in the United States as well,
01:32:47.000like we're in this weird volatile stage of our development as a civilization.
01:32:56.000Maybe when biological creatures go from being a thing that lives tooth and claw like a grizzly bear to eventually developing shelter and then eventually developing some semblance of civilization to eventually developing advanced civilization and space travel and all this other stuff.
01:33:15.000Maybe along the way there's this real Possibility of fucking the whole project up and that it happens all throughout the universe and maybe they've observed this maybe this is a stage of development that we are being given training wheels and Maybe a little bit of a helping hand by our extraterrestrial Brethren who are okay.
01:33:37.000They're at that nuclear part Let's uh, let's keep an eye on these fuckers.
01:33:41.000That would be a nice benign view I'd love that and it's possible that Even by acknowledging this phenomenon, if we got to the point down the road where our government said, wow, there really is something from off-planet coming here, it might help to resolve some of these differences and disputes between different countries,
01:34:02.000might compel us to collaborate more, to see ourselves more as one species, one people, and not Chinese versus Russians versus Americans.
01:34:13.000It would certainly stimulate a lot of technology, much as the space program did after they saw the Sputnik.
01:34:23.000And people got afraid of the Russians in space, and they're ahead of us.
01:34:47.000There's a lot of people that claim to have seen things and the stories all kind of mesh together from Jesse Marcel to all the different people that claim to have seen bodies and different people that saw caskets to the person who worked at the Mortuary who was contacted,
01:35:06.000the funeral home that was contacted by the military and told to make small caskets.
01:35:11.000There was all this weird shit that goes together.
01:35:15.000Now, whenever you have a story like that that becomes a legend, for sure there's some fuckery involved, right?
01:35:31.000Congressman Schiff of Arizona took up the case decades after the fact and asked the General Accounting Office to investigate.
01:35:42.000And they confronted the Air Force and did a lot of research and the Air Force story that these were weather balloons crumbled.
01:35:49.000And the Air Force did a deep inquiry of its own and produced a big book saying, I forget what the title was, but essentially they were saying it was actually a classified experiment that was designed to detect nuclear explosions in the Soviet Union.
01:36:07.000So they admitted that their first story was a lie, and their news story was, well, it really was balloons, but they weren't weather balloons.
01:36:15.000They were part of a top-secret experiment.
01:36:59.000We know they lied about it the first time.
01:37:01.000Well, the first, the report, I don't know where the report came from, but it was reported in the Roswell Daily Record, right?
01:37:07.000That they had recovered a crashed flying saucer.
01:37:10.000Oh, it was actually reported more widely than that.
01:37:12.000I think it was like announced over the radio and across the country.
01:37:16.000And then the next day they said it was a weather balloon.
01:37:19.000Was that when Jesse Marcel says he was told to bring in this false debris and say that this aluminum foil and all this crap was from a weather balloon?
01:37:35.000And I will tell you, I've never said this before, but I've been told by multiple people who have credentials and access that there is some truth to these stories.
01:37:51.000So I don't discount this when people say this.
01:37:54.000I've had people tell me, you know, people that have substantial, you know, scientific or military credentials that they believe is true.
01:38:06.000So I encourage people on the Hill to pursue it.
01:38:10.000You know, they've got a task force going right now looking into this.
01:38:15.000Trying to understand what's happening in these restricted military areas.
01:38:18.000If you're opening that up, you know, ask all the tough questions.
01:38:22.000Ask about the military bases and the nuclear weapons.
01:38:25.000Ask whether there's anything buried somewhere, whether there's materials that we have.
01:38:51.000There's Area 51, there's Wright-Patt, there's Edwards.
01:38:54.000There's a whole lot of places, depending on what you were doing with it.
01:38:57.000If you wanted to just squirrel it away, there's some facilities not too far from here in the Southwest that are, you know, you dispose nuclear waste and other things.
01:40:36.000There were tens of thousands of people involved in the production, the design, the deployment.
01:40:40.000And, you know, there are many smaller things that would be much easier to conceal for a long time.
01:40:47.000What gets compromised and leaked is usually, like, foreign policy stuff.
01:40:50.000And a policymaker can see that he can use his advantage in a debate over, you know, should we bomb a round or something, and they'll leak that.
01:40:59.000But weapons program stuff almost never leaks.
01:41:10.000And also, almost nobody knows about it.
01:41:11.000The policymakers don't know about that stuff.
01:41:13.000So they're recipients of intelligence products and reporting.
01:41:18.000But even when I was in the government...
01:41:21.000People in the National Security Council and, at that time, the Director of Central Intelligence, they didn't have access to the black programs at DOD. There was a case where I had a request from the National Security Council for access to some programs, and I took it back to the building,
01:42:20.000I have no inside knowledge of what he has done or who he's asked, but I've heard that he did ask one of his confidants to dive into this.
01:42:29.000Yeah, I wonder how much they tell the president.
01:42:32.000Because, like, you think, well, the president has access to all the information, and then you look at Trump, and you go, maybe not.
01:42:40.000They don't have access to anything close to all the information, and They don't need it and they don't want it.
01:42:46.000You know, most of the secret stuff is not sexy or interesting or particularly, you know...
01:42:52.000Isn't that a flaw, though, in our system?
01:42:54.000I mean, if that's really legitimately the commander-in-chief.
01:42:57.000That's the commander-in-chief of the greatest army the world's ever known, but you can't know a lot of shit.
01:43:02.000It's not that he can't, and he can get briefed on anything he wants, but he could spend the first six months doing nothing but looking at secret programs and getting briefed on them.
01:43:13.000And it's just not worth his time to be getting briefed on, yeah, this is how we made the battle armor on the tank better.
01:43:59.000There's a briefing the president gets, of course, shortly after being elected that covers a lot of the, you know, strategic nuclear warfare, some of the key top secret things that he really needs to know, has to know, should know.
01:44:14.000And then, you know, there's a category of things that are like, should we tell them or not?
01:44:20.000There's too much stuff, obviously, to convey, so they've got to pick and choose.
01:44:23.000Some things are no-brainers, other things are judgment calls.
01:44:26.000What do you think the DOE could be working on?
01:44:31.000Well, in some cases, a lot of what they're doing is good stuff.
01:44:35.000They're trying to secure the weapons stockpile, and they're trying to make sure that now that we're not testing anymore, will these things still function as they were designed?
01:44:43.000And they can do incredible computer modeling.
01:46:07.000Sort of pie that I didn't have a lot of deep access to.
01:46:11.000I had some access to those programs, but I had a much more prolonged and intimate relationship with the defense and intelligence community.
01:46:22.000Now, if you became president and you wanted to find out more information about UAPs or UFOs or whatever you want to call them, how would you go about doing that?
01:47:15.000I know where a lot of the budgets are.
01:47:17.000Imagine walking around with that information, though.
01:47:19.000Imagine being a guy who's walking around knowing that somewhere in the middle of the Nevada desert, there's a UFO that definitely came from another planet.
01:48:05.000And you're not supposed, you can't tell anybody anything.
01:48:08.000I had my family quietly, you know, relocate, but turned out the source, thankfully, was wrong.
01:48:15.000But it was one of those kind of situations where...
01:48:19.000You're aware of something or the possibility of something that is going to just freak people the hell out if they found out about it for good reason.
01:48:33.000Yeah, that always begs the question, like if you knew that something was going to happen that was going to destroy the country, what do you do?
01:49:09.000If you tell people to evacuate, there's probably going to be incredible panic and all kinds of, not only just disruption, but people are going to get hurt and probably some people are going to die in a panic like that.
01:49:23.000Like, what do you do if they spotted something, they've got some sort of satellite image of some mothership that's 15 football fields long, and it's headed our way?
01:50:06.000I'm sure you're aware of the astronomy professor from Harvard, the chief of astronomy, Dr. Avi Loeb, and his assessment of that object that went through our solar system, that he believes it's extraterrestrial in origin,
01:50:24.00091% possibility that it's some sort of a disk, that it's 10 times more reflective than any other object like it that we've ever spotted in the solar system, and that it's moving far too fast away from the sun for it to be something that it's not affected the way we would expect it to be by the sun's gravity.
01:50:45.000It seems to indicate that it's something of extraterrestrial origin.
01:51:04.000One of the things I found interesting though about it is here's an object, maybe discarded, maybe it's just an artifact, a solar sail that somebody didn't need anymore and it fell into orbit around our Sun.
01:51:18.000If it was some kind of a craft, as some people theorized, think about how inefficient that is compared to a probe in our atmosphere, compared to these things that we're seeing routinely.
01:51:32.000This thing passed, you know, it may have taken hundreds or thousands of years to get here, and would you want to design and build something that after traveling for hundreds of thousands of years, it spends a few days at a Great distance from interesting planets and just kind of whizzes by and then it's gone.
01:51:48.000Well, isn't it possible that this is one, like, look at what we're doing on Mars, right?
01:51:52.000We have this drone that's buzzing around on Mars and the rover.
01:51:57.000Isn't it possible that this is like an early stage intergalactic spaceship that's now just filled with skeletons?
01:52:07.000What I think is interesting, though, is we have this very persuasive and compelling evidence of intelligently controlled vehicles in our atmosphere that are actually maneuvering, which this thing was not.
01:52:22.000And are behaving in ways that you might expect a probe from somewhere else to behave, including the fact that it's doing radical things we don't understand that seem like magic.
01:52:35.000So if you apply that logic to, say, the Nimitz case, I think it's even stronger.
01:52:40.000I think it's harder to explain the Nimitz case than it is Umana-Mana.
01:52:45.000A Mono Mono, though, what my take on it is like, you know, you could go to someone's barn and find a Model T. Or you could drive down the road and see a Tesla.
01:52:56.000You know, there are various stages of technological evolution.
01:53:00.000Just because we have these amazing things like that tic-tac that are somehow or another here and operating, it doesn't mean it's something else.
01:53:08.000I mean, if we're right about the amount of Goldilocks planets that are out there and we're right about the infinite scope of the universe, It's possible there's a shitload of civilizations.
01:55:21.000Yeah, there's a number of these fabricators, and of course they've polluted the whole space.
01:55:25.000I know some guys that are trying to create an AI capability that'll screen all these videos.
01:55:31.000For signs of manipulation and being hoaxed, etc., so you can have a better sense of confidence in the ones that get through that process.
01:55:40.000Because there's so many out there, and some of them could be really interesting, but you have no way of knowing what credibility to attach to them, generally.
01:55:48.000Are there any ones from other countries that you find credible, like videos, footage?
01:55:53.000Wasn't there some images or video that was taken over Mexico City?
01:56:05.000There have been a lot of sightings in Mexico and in South America.
01:56:09.000There was a sighting off the coast of Chile, which I think they found an explanation for.
01:56:15.000It was apparently a drug plane that was exuding a lot of its fuel, probably because it was trying to disguise its location or I don't know, change directions or something.
01:56:28.000It looked very weird when you saw the original video.
01:57:09.000One of them, I've seen a few of them, and until the Defense Department releases it, I can't say too much about it, even though it's not classified, but they haven't released it yet.
01:57:22.000But I will say there are some more videos like the ones that have been released that they've authenticated.
01:57:28.000Do you believe that the Defense Department is going to eventually release this video that you've seen?
01:58:44.000Jamie, find the Go Fast video and play that because that's the best one to hear the pilots reaction because they're watching this thing shoot across the surface of the ocean.
01:58:57.000That was released in the Washington Post a few months after the other two that were in the New York Times.
01:59:03.000But it's a good video and it's been authenticated by the Defense Department.
01:59:38.000His debunkings are more elaborate than alien theories.
01:59:42.000He's got civilian airliners on their sides without transponders and restricted airspace with three other things happening at the same time.
01:59:49.000His take on the TikTok is pretty silly.
01:59:53.000He hasn't taken into account all the evidence.
01:59:56.000He has no regard for military personnel and their experience with these sensors and these aircraft and what they're seeing and reporting.
02:01:45.000That would have to be the most fucking insane wind of all time, like a tunnel wind.
02:01:51.000But just the fact that it looks like it's not wiggling at all, it's moving through some method of propulsion that can't be determined because it's not giving off a heat signature.
02:02:01.000And, I mean, to say it's only 150 miles an hour, like, maybe.
02:02:05.000But why would that freak out pilots who go way faster than that?
02:02:10.000I mean, they can go supersonic, and they're watching this thing, and they're freaking out and laughing.
02:02:19.000And they're probably being vectored to it by somebody.
02:02:22.000It sounds to me like they've been looking for it and somebody's been saying, hey, it's down here, go to this place and you'll find it.
02:02:27.000And then these guys finally get on it and somebody gets a lock on it.
02:02:30.000And you can hear that amazement in their voice.
02:02:32.000So there's a lot more information about that incident than these others, which is in the public domain.
02:02:37.000I've been urging the Defense Department to put more of that out there and suggesting to the committees they might want to They asked the department to do that.
02:03:10.000And now we're finally getting some attention on a serious national security problem, which wouldn't have happened if the information hadn't gone public.
02:03:19.000And, you know, why not make more information public if it's not classified?
02:03:24.000There's no sources and methods issue that you're going to compromise.
02:03:27.000You know, you're not revealing some super hidden capability that needs to be protected.
02:03:33.000Why not put that out and help inform people?
02:03:36.000And it's their country, it's their homes, their livelihood, their government.
02:03:41.000And ultimately, how does Congress make decisions about how to allocate resources if they don't have the information of what's going on and what the possible threats are?
02:03:51.000None of this information was getting to Congress.
02:03:53.000So there was no opportunity for them even to take any action.
02:03:59.000They were completely kept in the dark on this until 2017. That's pretty crazy.
02:06:16.000He said, not only is it not ET, but we don't see any mysterious technology, and we don't see any reason to be concerned from a national security standpoint.
02:06:26.000I don't see how this report can say any of those things.
02:06:31.000So I think when that, you know, assuming they do deliver the report and they acknowledge that this is happening, it's continuing to happen, they have other classified information that should be weighed and factored into their unclassified judgment and report that's released.
02:06:47.000They won't give the details, but the people that write the assessment of this should have the knowledge of that.
02:06:53.000And I think if they do a straight-up job, they're going to have to acknowledge that there are indications of technology more advanced than anything we possess, and that there is a legitimate national security issue.
02:07:07.000So that one video that flies very close to the pilot, that's the one that you find to be the most compelling?
02:07:13.000That has the most, I think, emotional impact on people.
02:07:16.000I think the gimbal video, when you understand that there's a second fleet of UFOs that are maneuvering near those guys, in addition to what you're seeing there and the pilot's reaction and maneuvering, that's probably...
02:08:03.000So there's two aviators in those F-18s.
02:08:07.000There's a pilot and a weapon system operator behind him.
02:08:11.000And there were two F-18s that saw the Nimitz with two people in them.
02:08:15.000So that's four aviators all seeing the same thing in perfect conditions.
02:08:19.000And they're toggling through different methods of viewing this thing to try to get a better perspective, a better view of it.
02:08:28.000Yeah, and he had been following what was going on earlier in the day and wanted to go out and try to get on this thing, you know, gung-ho Navy pilot, and all of a sudden it decides it doesn't want to be there anymore.
02:08:44.000So what we're watching, for folks who are just listening, is he's toggling also from looking at it in what looks like 1X, and then he goes and zooms in occasionally, he's going back and forth.
02:09:03.000And that will that will enhance his ability to track it and He's not able to do that.
02:09:10.000He's his system is not able to get a lock so he keeps trying and then all of a sudden Yeah, that's bananas You know do we have any estimation of how fast it was going when it did that?
02:09:20.000We do We're talking thousands of miles an hour.
02:09:25.000The Scientific Coalition for UFO Research has a website and they did a very deep analysis, mathematical engineering guys.
02:09:36.000On the momentums, the G-forces, the speeds, and they're all crazy.
02:09:41.000I mean, some of the G-forces, their G-forces, if the speed estimates are right, that are probably five times greater than anything we've ever built could withstand.
02:09:53.000I mean, it would just shred any aircraft, any missile, any rocket that we've ever built.
02:09:59.000They're so far beyond the design tolerances and limits of systems that we make that it's crazy.
02:10:06.000So that image or that video alone is probably to you the most compelling?
02:10:14.000I think actually the most compelling case is the Nimitz case because you have so many witnesses and so many censors and the FLIR is part of that.
02:10:23.000But you really have to look at the whole case.
02:10:26.000You have to Talk to all the pilots involved, which I've done.
02:10:31.000You have to talk to the radar operators on the Princeton.
02:10:35.000There's also radar operators on the E2C Hawkeye, which was up there monitoring this, getting sporadic hits.
02:10:41.000And then you have this third F-18 that goes up.
02:10:56.000And what people are seeing is what the sensors are reporting.
02:11:01.000So that case overall is really the most compelling to my mind.
02:11:05.000It's just such a strange occurrence when all those pieces align together like that too, right?
02:11:12.000Where you have the Nimitz, you have Commander Fravor, you have the other ship and all this information about this one thing that they track on this one day and then they say they've encountered multiple ones of those over the last few weeks.
02:11:31.000You're talking about during the Nimitz round?
02:11:33.000Yes, they were tracking numerous objects that were moving off the coast of California and the coast of Mexico.
02:11:41.000They were descending from probably the sort of maximum detection range of the Aegis cruiser there, which they were seeing some of these things starting to appear in their radar at like 80,000 feet.
02:11:55.000They have a low radar cross-section, so most conventional radars couldn't even track them.
02:11:59.000Certainly not at any kind of distance.
02:12:01.000So, you know, you don't know how high were they...
02:12:34.000So they have this incredible performance range.
02:12:37.000There seems to be unlimited time on station.
02:12:40.000They don't seem to be running out of fuel.
02:12:41.000They seem to be able to just go all day, which of course our aircraft are not able to do, at these insane speeds and maneuver unlike anything that we know of or understand.
02:13:02.000If there's no air intake, there's no exhaust, there's no heat signature, and they're going supersonic without making sound.
02:13:10.000So there's some theories about that which are not validated yet.
02:13:17.000Attempts to explain that by manipulating spacetime in the immediate vicinity of the craft that could potentially explain how the contents could survive the g-forces because they wouldn't be subjected to them and why they wouldn't make sound as it make a shockwave as it crossed the sound barrier.
02:13:37.000And lots of other factors associated with this phenomenon.
02:13:41.000There are some plausible explanations consistent with science as we understand it, but it would be really exotic technology and way beyond anything that we even have on the drawing boards.
02:13:53.000And so by saying that it manipulates space-time, is there any theory of how something like that could be constructed?
02:14:03.000Something that could manipulate space-time?
02:14:05.000There's something called an Alcubierre drive.
02:14:08.000And this is a physicist who developed a theory.
02:14:12.000It requires insane amounts of energy to do it.
02:14:15.000But it would enable, in theory, if you could construct something, a device that could do that, to essentially cause this object to act like it was falling.
02:14:26.000And so the people on board, if there were people or whatever's on board, wouldn't feel those radical g-forces, and the object would slip through the atmosphere instead of, like, Penetrating through the atmosphere,
02:14:41.000more like the atmosphere in front of it was opening up as it moved along.
02:14:47.000Now there was a paper that I saw just a couple weeks ago that challenges that theory.
02:14:54.000So perhaps that particular theory is no longer in good stead in the physics community, but there are some alternative theories along those lines.
02:15:05.000And of course there's just so much we don't know.
02:15:08.000So, what we do know is what we're observing, and that's really the key.
02:15:12.000And that's part of the problem with this debate is we've got to start with the facts.
02:15:16.000The theories have to be consistent with the facts.
02:15:19.000The facts don't have to be consistent with the theories.
02:15:21.000I mean, you know, we work in that direction.
02:15:24.000We take the facts and we try to come up with hypotheses consistent with that.
02:15:27.000But too many people look at this and say, well, it can't be this and it can't be that, so the facts are wrong.
02:15:34.000You know, this is what some of the debunkers do.
02:15:36.000They start with the premise that it couldn't possibly be any of those things, so he must have been seeing a bubble on his windshield.
02:15:44.000And, you know, these guys were having a mass delusion, and oh, by the way, the radar operators were mistaking some weather inversion, and, you know, they just keep adding on as necessary new conditions which they have no evidence or proof of.
02:15:59.000None of these things have been identified by anybody.
02:16:03.000None of the debunkers have said, you know, it turned out that was United Airlines flight, blah, blah, blah.
02:16:09.000Or it was this boat or somebody's drone.
02:16:25.000You know, Chad Underwood, I've heard him on a podcast describe that event, and I actually sent it around to some people because he debunks the debunkers.
02:16:37.000He's got thousands of hours of cockpit time, He knows those systems, knows those aircraft.
02:16:42.000He says, you know, that was instantaneous acceleration, no ifs, ands, or buts.
02:16:47.000And there's no way that was any kind of conventional aircraft out there.
02:16:52.000And when you hear the guy talking about firsthand about his experience, I find that generally with these pilots, when you sit down with them face to face, you know, they're not bullshitting you.
02:17:02.000It's really clear they're being candid and And their emotions are honest, and they're befuddled like the rest of us.
02:17:08.000That propulsion system, the way you described it by manipulating space-time, isn't that exactly what Bob Lazar said propels these spaceships that he was working on?
02:17:42.000But there were other people speculating along those lines, I believe, at that time about propulsion systems like that.
02:17:49.000And this idea of this element 115 being this incredibly dense but stable element that doesn't really exist in a stable form here on Earth.
02:18:01.000That they didn't really have a real evidence of this until what was like 2013 or something along those lines?
02:18:11.000Yeah, there was something that he did raise that issue and it wasn't until long afterward that scientists discovered that I guess that It is possible for it to be stable for some brief period of time,
02:18:27.000which I think before they thought you just couldn't bring it together.
02:18:31.000But it was just detected in a particle drive for the first time in the 2000s, correct?
02:19:04.000What are your thoughts on not just drones, but alien life forms?
02:19:10.000I mean, have you ever heard any compelling stories about some biological thing from another planet, whether it's a dead thing or a living thing, that's been observed or that's been, you know, obtained?
02:19:45.000But there are some that come from, say, like a foreign military that...
02:19:54.000Really make you wonder, why would they invent this and be claiming this?
02:20:00.000Maybe it's some guy off his rocker, but there are some examples like that that do get your attention, that cause you to think maybe there's something to this.
02:20:13.000What has been the most interesting story that you've heard?
02:20:20.000There are a number, but one of them involved a foreign military that had several different interactions and incidents.
02:20:29.000They had some military officers that allegedly had some contact, and a very senior officer allegedly There was a location, according to this report,
02:20:44.000where a UFO was appearing sort of nightly.
02:20:47.000And he went out there with some of the guys, and on the second or third night this thing, Lowenhold, did appear.
02:20:54.000And he had some interaction with it, supposedly.
02:20:57.000And he describes this and describes communications he received.
02:21:03.000But there's no independent corroboration of it.
02:23:44.000Ronald Reagan, and it was one of his iconic alien movies, and Reagan sort of quipped to him something like, yeah, you know, it's really true, or we really have those things, or something like that.
02:25:24.000Legend has it that Nixon and Gleason drove to a heavily guarded building on Homestead Air Force Base, where the leader of the free world gave the guy who played the bus driver from Bensonhurst a private tour.
02:25:37.000We drove to the very far end of the base in a regulated and segregated area, finally stopping near a well-guarded building, Gleason told UFO researcher and author Larry Warren, an eyewitness to the Rendlesham Forest UFO incident,
02:25:55.000according to the book UFOs Among the Stars by Timothy Green Beckley.
02:26:00.000The security police saw us coming and just sort of moved back as we passed them and entered the structure.
02:26:06.000There were a number of labs we passed through.
02:26:08.000First, before we entered a section where Nixon pointed out what he said was the wreckage from a flying saucer, enclosed in several large cases.
02:26:18.000Next, we went to an inner chamber, and there were six or eight of what looked like glass-topped Coke freezers.
02:26:27.000Inside them were the mangled remains of what I took to be children.
02:26:32.000Then, upon closer examination, I saw that some of the other figures looked quite old.
02:26:37.000Most of them were terribly mangled as if they had been in an accident.
02:26:42.000Jackie Gleason's wife Beverly Gleason told the same story to the magazine Esquire in 1974. It was passed off as a publicity story for her then-upcoming autobiography.
02:26:54.000It talks about the house he made, which was somewhere else maybe, I don't know.
02:26:58.000It says, Gleason's 50-foot-wide mothership house was custom-made by shipbuilders in an airplane hangar and moved to Gleason's property.
02:27:08.000Van Tassel's Integratron was built in the Mojave Desert because of its proximity to the magnetic vortices and the relationship to the Great Pyramids.
02:28:03.000Because the unknown is very compelling, and that's part of the problem.
02:28:06.000There's, again, this part of the brain that lights up when you can find out things that we don't know to be true, whether it's Bigfoot or the Loch Ness Monster or UFOs.
02:28:15.000Yeah, a lot of people are drawn to this, you know, and again, it's like religion, you know, it's the mystery, it's the wonder, it's the connection to something greater.
02:28:25.000People that are, you know, in the intelligence community, there was this remote viewing program.
02:28:31.000And some of those people are also people who are interested in this phenomenon and were involved in it.
02:28:35.000What's your take on that remote viewing stuff?
02:28:38.000Well, you know, they seem to have some individuals they claim who could perform better than chance and could do so consistently.
02:28:49.000Some of their research has been disputed.
02:28:53.000So, I don't have a strong feeling, but I do know that some people have had some legitimately crazy experiences.
02:29:02.000The Skinwalker Ranch, there's some strange stuff being documented around there.
02:29:07.000There was strange stuff documented by Bob Bigelow, before the present owner had it.
02:29:13.000If you read the book Paranormal, you'll hear about incidents that I have discussed with some of the protagonists in that book, and it's crazy stuff.
02:29:25.000And they will look you right in the eye at people with PhDs, and they'll say, yeah, This guy came in the room and we said, what are you doing in here?
02:29:34.000Because it's a classified, you know, facility.
02:29:38.000And the guy, big guy with one arm missing in a hook or something.
02:29:44.000And he wheels, turns around, goes out.
02:29:47.000The guy who's telling the story runs up and grabs the door and opens it.
02:29:53.000This figure looks exactly like supposedly the figure that someone had seen over their bed the night before DOE with this, you know, one-armed guy spinning around.
02:30:05.000And, you know, you say, well, this is insane.
02:31:06.000And treating it like you would any other scientific issue.
02:31:10.000And I think he's going to be publishing in a peer-reviewed journal some interesting data before too long.
02:31:15.000I think he's been working on that for a long time.
02:31:18.000So there are some examples like that that are serious and credible.
02:31:23.000And some of the materials seem to have properties that Are difficult to explain that suggest that maybe they were engineered not at the molecular level, but at the atomic level, which would be extremely difficult and expensive to try to replicate.
02:31:42.000He was saying that some of these samples, if you were to recreate them with the technology available today, it would cost billions of dollars.
02:31:57.000There's also a discussion that the isotopic ratios of these materials in some cases are sufficiently statistically different from what is found in nature in our solar system that it suggests they were born in a different sun,
02:32:15.000a different All the heavier elements are created in these solar explosions and supernovae that cram and fuse these protons and neutrons and electrons together and create the higher elements, the heavier elements.
02:32:33.000In our solar system, they all came from one event.
02:32:38.000And so iron, wherever it is in our solar system, will have a certain ratio of isotopes that have a few that have an extra neutron or, you know, one more or one less kind of thing.
02:32:49.000So there's sort of a fingerprint with that.
02:32:51.000And supposedly, as I understand it, some of these materials have a different ratio than you would expect of metal found in our solar system.
02:33:02.000At least that's one of the things they're looking for and testing for.
02:33:06.000And then these composites, how do they refer to these composites?
02:33:10.000Like when they talk about what these, the way these things are constructed, do they have a name for this type of a composite?
02:33:20.000Well, they're not all, I'm not sure they're all composites, but I've seen some of these materials and they look like they're, some of them look like they're layered, like they're micromachined, you know, a millionth of an inch or a few bits.
02:33:34.000Hundreds of an inch or something layered on top of one another with exotic, fairly exotic metals, bismuth and other things that, you know, people aren't normally using.
02:34:58.000One theory about that material is that it is a wave guide for microwave radiation.
02:35:06.000So it can actually enhance microwave emissions that could go right through the material.
02:35:14.000And if you were building a craft that was...
02:35:18.000Wanting to transmit or receive microwave radiation for some purpose, propulsion or otherwise, a material like that might help you accomplish that.
02:36:02.000It was silverish and, you know, people were looking at it trying to think whether it could be from some, you know, known component to some aircraft or ship or something.
02:36:16.000Nobody has identified a conventional industrial counterpart to it.
02:36:22.000Something that was manufactured to those specifications for some reason, as far as I know.
02:36:43.000Well, to the stars, there was an effort to...
02:36:51.000Transfer some, have some of these materials tested and exploited.
02:36:55.000And we were purchasing, the company, not me, but the company was purchasing some of the materials to try to facilitate that.
02:37:02.000And so who was in possession of these materials that you could purchase them from?
02:37:07.000In some cases, I don't know about that piece.
02:37:10.000There were some people in the field who had been collectors or researchers and had some material just the way Jacques has probably got materials from 15 or 20 different materials, pieces from different alleged incidents.
02:37:25.000One was an explosion of an object in Brazil, for example.
02:37:32.000So there are some items out on the market that are around.
02:37:38.000When you saw this stuff, was that the most compelling piece of evidence that you had ever seen?
02:37:45.000No, I'm actually very agnostic about that.
02:37:50.000I think I haven't seen any test results.
02:37:54.000I'm completely agnostic as to whether it's something that was produced on Earth for some obscure reason or whether it's something more exotic.
02:38:04.000I'm not particularly impressed by that.
02:38:06.000What impresses me most, I think if I could point to one thing, it would be the Nimitz case.
02:38:13.000Yeah, there's some other stuff that is interesting and impressive that is not yet available.
02:38:29.000But in terms of the stuff we can talk about, I would say that's the single most compelling thing.
02:38:36.000Now, what can be done in terms of with the government?
02:38:40.000What can be done to study this stuff more carefully?
02:38:45.000Does a whole new department need to be developed?
02:38:49.000Does all these pieces of evidence, the Nimitz case, the GoFast video, the Gimbal video, all the stuff we're talking about, do you think this merits enough attention?
02:39:04.000Curiosity to the point where you could see the government investing a considerable amount of capital and resources to studying this stuff on a much deeper level.
02:40:03.000Or does it just do we go back to the status quo ante or, you know, it just falls on the floor and nobody cares?
02:40:10.000So I think we're getting to the point, I hope we're getting to the point where people are saying, yeah, we can learn a lot from anomalies.
02:40:16.000In science, that's one of the ways breakthroughs most often occur, right, is some anomaly that is baffling, like the procession of Mercury in Einstein.
02:40:30.000And then he came along with general relativity, perfectly explained it, bingo.
02:40:34.000There's some strange anomalies going on here in our atmosphere worth our attention.
02:40:39.000And yes, we ought to be studying it and there ought to be a centralized place where this stuff comes together.
02:40:44.000And maybe a federal lab kind of a thing.
02:40:48.000I'm not an advocate of big new organizational structures and Throwing billions of dollars at things.
02:40:53.000I don't think you need to, but I think we could more effectively coordinate space-related research, for example, in R&D than we do today.
02:41:03.000So we have DOE labs for nuclear energy and nuclear power.
02:41:08.000We don't have something like that that universities and NASA and the military can work with on the space side.
02:41:15.000So something like that that was flexible, that would give people a chance to partner from Different backgrounds and academia and so forth with the government is probably something that we could benefit from.
02:42:36.000What could we be doing to observe more of them?
02:42:39.000So, yeah, there's a lot we could do, and I don't have a precise number for people, but I could tell you some of the things I'd be thinking about wanting to scope to drive a number.
02:42:46.000So, one of the things we haven't done yet is go into these existing databases from these incredible collection systems like the ballistic missile early warning system.
02:42:57.000And if they've seen UFOs, they're not reporting it, but their systems are optimized to look for very specific kinds of things, like an ICBM. And they want to reduce clutter, so the other stuff is not displayed to the operator.
02:43:10.000People in the op center don't even see it, but it's in the database.
02:43:14.000There's a lot of databases like that where if we just pulled the data and had some contractors run it, we might find some really interesting signatures and patterns, which would then help us get a handle on the phenomenon and where we ought to be looking going forward.
02:43:27.000So that would take some money to get some contractors to To do that, there are a number of different systems that I would want to do that on.
02:43:34.000The space-based infrared system, the global acoustic monitoring system, some other systems.
02:46:16.000We could probably plausibly spend a reasonable amount of money and make a lot of headway in trying to identify what are the signatures that these things give off that we can then begin to track with this huge system that we have that's global and in outer space.
02:46:34.000Then I would want to spend some money on propulsion.
02:46:37.000And probably have some money, you'd need some money for testing some theories.
02:46:44.000The nuclear weapons issue that you mentioned, monitoring our nuclear weapons, if that's going on, and there are a lot of reports...
02:46:53.000Supposedly in 1973 is a story I just heard the other day from a foreign correspondent.
02:46:59.000During the 73 war, we went to DEFCON 2. In Australia, a UFO appeared over a Navy communications system for submarine-launched ballistic missiles and just hovered for about a half an hour.
02:47:14.000Again, unverified, but this is the story.
02:47:18.000Well, if that kind of thing has any plausibility in these reports about interfering with RSAVMs, you might set up a collection event when you know we're going to be moving some things because it's a pre-planned exercise or something.
02:47:31.000So maybe you keep an eye out and set some special collection up just in case something does get triggered by that or happens.
02:47:38.000That would be pertinent to the Chinese and Russians.
02:47:43.000I mean, nothing would be higher on their collection list than trying to understand any kind of new technology we had having to do with nuclear weapons.
02:47:52.000So you might learn something, again, not saying it's aliens.
02:48:06.000Both countries have active UFO groups and the government seems to be connected to both of them and allowing them to exist and maybe encouraging them, probably getting some intelligence from them.
02:48:20.000Read our papers and they may well listen to this podcast, for example.
02:48:24.000They've got some people trying to figure out what's going on with the Americas.
02:48:27.000Have they really got this technology or is this from somewhere else?
02:48:31.000At least that's part of what appears to be happening, but they certainly have had their own incidents.
02:48:38.000And over the years, we've been told about that.
02:48:43.000One of the famous incidents that we had actually during Blue Book occurred in Russia, and it was a U.S. senator who was visiting Russia, and he and some of the staff while they were in Russia, it was...
02:48:57.000It was a majority leader or speaker of the House, very prominent U.S. politician who was on a rare Cold War visit to the Soviet Union and saw this flying saucer from the train he was on and other people there saw it.
02:49:12.000That was one that went into the Blue Book files.
02:49:15.000So they certainly have had incidents as well.
02:49:20.000So is there another country that has a strong interest in UFOs besides China and Russia that we're aware of?
02:49:29.000France has had an official UFO investigative group for probably decades.
02:49:34.000And small office, small budget, but they every year take, say, the top six cases from the police and the military and analyze them and bring in some scientists and engineers and see what they can make of that.
02:49:49.000So they've been doing that for a long time, and there have been years where they've had more UFO reports, at least per capita, than we have.
02:50:15.000Their UFO groups tend to be less fantastical and more sort of focused on science.
02:50:23.000Seems to be quite a bit of a different attitude and approach over there.
02:50:27.000So if the president had listened to this podcast and took an interest in this and wanted to have a conversation with you, what do you think you would tell him?
02:50:38.000I would focus on how to get the answers to the key questions and get to the bottom line and the truth.
02:50:45.000Who you need to talk to, who you need to get on the carpet and put it to.
02:50:52.000And so you can really get to the bottom of this thing.
02:50:55.000And you think that we could make some progress in that direction if we took the right steps?
02:51:02.000I think certainly if we did some of the things I was talking about, we'd be better off.
02:51:05.000We'd gain some new knowledge and insight.
02:51:11.000You know, different directions it could go, but we'd be better off for it.
02:51:16.000Mining these anomalies can be very profitable.
02:51:19.000And I've suggested creating an office called the Office of Strategic Anomaly Resolution.
02:51:27.000And when our increasingly technical intelligence community detects things that are really weird and anomalous, like this business of these beams that are, you know, we're hitting the people in the Havana embassy, and you need some really smart technical people, you've got something just really weird, you have a sort of group of scientists and engineers who are focused that you can take these kinds of things to,
02:51:48.000and they can figure out what to do with it or where to take it.
02:51:51.000Did they ever figure out what those beams in the Havana Embassy were?
02:52:03.000So what we're talking about is employees of the...
02:52:07.000The U.S. government in Havana, mostly but elsewhere in addition to Havana, have started feeling very ill, headaches, a range of symptoms, loss of energy.
02:52:23.000And it seems that they have been targeted with some kind of a RF weapon, some kind of electromagnetic radiation from a distance.
02:52:33.000And we do know that the Russians in particular I have been developing devices like that for decades and they used to use them on our embassy in Moscow all the time for different kinds of collection purposes, different techniques.
02:52:52.000Cuba is a country where they could plausibly test something like that and have a degree of deniability.
02:52:59.000They've got, you know, freedom of action down there.
02:53:02.000They're still one of the few supporting governments that supports the regime there.
02:53:05.000So it's someplace they might undertake further testing in a real world setting if they wanted to.
02:53:12.000It's something that could be mobile and not clear what the objective is, whether it's to make people sick or whether is this incidental?
02:53:22.000They're trying to get stuff off the computers and the people just happen to be close to the computers.
02:53:26.000And they're trying to put a beam through there that scrapes energy off the screen or something.
02:53:32.000We don't really know, but there seems to be a pattern to this stuff.
02:53:37.000My friend Mike Swick, shout out to Mike Swick, he used to work for the, I think it was the Secret Service, and they had an embassy in Moscow, and they detected these devices that the Soviet Union had installed inside the walls that were listening devices that were powered by the movement of the building in the wind.
02:54:18.000I know that we found antennas embedded in the concrete of the U.S. Embassy as it was being constructed, the new embassy that brought the entire construction to a halt.
02:54:28.000The thing listening device, is this it?
02:54:33.000No, I think we've maybe talked, maybe that's why, because we talked about it on here.
02:54:35.000Known as the Great Seal Bug, one of the first covert listening devices, or bugs, to use passive techniques to transmit an audio signal.
02:54:44.000It was concealed inside a GIF given by the Soviet Union to W. Averill Harriman, United States Ambassador to the Soviet Union, August 4th, 1945. Because it was passive, needing electromagnetic energy from an outside source to become energized and activate,
02:55:01.000it's considered a predecessor of radio frequency identification technology.
02:55:05.000I don't think that's exactly what he was talking about.
02:55:07.000He was talking about these bugs that were – they were actually powered by – you know, and the wind moves – you know, like your – A little kinetic energy.
02:55:16.000You move your watch and that's what powers the watch.
02:55:19.000They've been exploring all kinds of things like that.
02:55:22.000And we actually – it cost the U.S. taxpayer hundreds of millions because halfway through the construction of the new U.S. embassy, They found in the concrete forms antenna shapes that made no sense to us.
02:55:35.000We didn't know what the hell they were.
02:55:36.000And weird designs and shapes that were intercepting some of our stuff and modifying it or using construction people outside of our supervision to do this.
02:55:49.000And they had other things with the pipes and the wires.
02:56:03.000Someone recently claimed about the pyramid things that were flying over the ship that it was Vlad.
02:56:12.000There was some Soviet guy who said it was Vladimir Putin's creations.
02:56:18.000News to me, we have validated the fact that he has developed a nuclear missile that is kind of like imagine a nuclear cruise missile with incredible range and maneuverability.
02:56:36.000So that's something I don't know how much success they've had with it but they really do have a project like that and they have done some testing.
02:56:43.000So there have been some advances under his time, under his tenure.
02:56:49.000But I don't know, I don't think, I've not heard anything about triangular objects.
02:57:20.000He's tried to solve this problem from the congressional side of terms of the lack of interest of the U.S. government by putting some money on it, which created this AATIP program, the Advanced Airborne Identity Threat Program, Advanced Aerospace Threat Program.
02:57:36.000So he's been involved for a long time, been very...
02:57:40.000Curious about this, wanting to see some answers.
02:57:43.000He has been very active, extremely active.
02:57:46.000Well, Chris, this has been a very enlightening and interesting conversation, and I really appreciate your time, and I really appreciate your openness to discussing this stuff, because I know it does for a person that's a serious person.
02:58:04.000In my community, I don't think there's any doubt that there are people making jokes about me behind my back and that kind of thing.
02:58:12.000But I knew that was going to happen going into this.
02:58:15.000And to me, there's a principle here, a very cherished principle.
02:58:20.000I think you just have to do the right thing at the end of the day, which you believe in.
02:58:24.000Well, I also think there's enough evidence at this point in time, and thankfully, because of the New York Times article from 2017, it's loosened a lot of the stigma attached to it.
02:58:34.000And a lot of this, like we showed, the gimbal, the FLIR, the go fast video, this is wild shit.
02:58:40.000And if we can't explain it, you can't just bury your head in the sand and pretend it doesn't exist.