The Joe Rogan Experience - Joe Rogan Experience #1883

00:00:08.000 Nice to meet you, Ryan.

00:00:13.000 Nice to meet you, Joe.

00:00:14.000 Pleasure to be here.

00:00:15.000 You're one of four or five people that I've talked to that have seen something that might be from somewhere else.

00:00:23.000 It's always weird when you talk to someone that may have seen something that...

00:00:28.000 Let's just first, before we even get started, please tell people your credentials, what your background is.

00:00:35.000 Sure.

00:00:35.000 So, you know, my name is Ryan Graves.

00:00:37.000 I have an engineering degree, mechanical and aerospace engineering.

00:00:41.000 I promptly left doing that to go fly F-18s for the Navy as soon as I graduated college.

00:00:47.000 Did that for about a decade, both operationally in combat as well as in an instructor role, teaching the new students.

00:00:57.000 And, you know, we did witness something while we were flying in our jets, but, you know, we witnessed it in the context of our just everyday flying in our missions.

00:01:06.000 And what year was it that you witnessed this?

00:01:09.000 So we started seeing these in 2014 was the earliest that I know.

00:01:14.000 2013, late 2013, early 2014. And could you describe, what was the very first experience?

00:01:20.000 Yeah, so for me personally, the experience was simply just flying out to the area like I would any other day.

00:01:27.000 And instead of seeing an empty airspace with just my wing person or another squadron doing something a different block, there were all of a sudden a lot of different radar contacts, which is immediately a problem because, you know, we could be hitting one of those or someone working in our area.

00:01:43.000 And this was happening because we upgraded our radar, the best we could tell.

00:01:46.000 We were in an earlier radar called the APG-73, and we had come back from deployment.

00:01:52.000 We entered a maintenance phase, it's called.

00:01:55.000 We kind of do a little bit less flying, upgrade the jets if we need to, do any long-lasting maintenance.

00:02:01.000 And we upgraded to the APG-79, which was a much better radar.

00:02:06.000 And what is the difference in the capabilities of the upgraded radar system versus the original system?

00:02:12.000 So, you know, kind of practically speaking, it's like going from an analog TV essentially to like an OLED. It's, you know, a digital modern tool compared to more of like an analog classical radar that has more limited range and has less ability to track multiple targets and things of that nature.

00:02:29.000 So just generally speaking, we would expect to see, you know, more objects if there were any out there or smaller objects, but there shouldn't have been any objects out there.

00:02:40.000 And so how far offshore are you when this is all going down?

00:02:45.000 Our working areas start about 10 miles off the coast, and then it goes out 250 miles or so, though we don't usually use those far eastern areas.

00:02:54.000 But we would only see them over the water.

00:02:56.000 So they would really only be in our working areas, maybe slightly in between the working areas and land, but never over the land.

00:03:04.000 Sometimes over the bays that are in the area that are quite large, but never just kind of zoom in west over land or anything like that.

00:03:12.000 And is this restricted airspace?

00:03:14.000 It's not.

00:03:15.000 So that's a tricky question.

00:03:16.000 For us operating in a military operating area, it is not restricted in the sense that you have to be, there's only one person allowed in there.

00:03:25.000 You could have these little Cessnas kind of bumbling in there, but they would get called out pretty quick, both from the kind of air traffic control agency that's working out there, as well as F-18s and the other aircraft that may be working out there.

00:03:41.000 But in a broader sense, when we look at it in relation to our air defense identification zone, which is essentially a band of airspace that surrounds our entire country, if your flight path originates out over the water outside of the ATIS and you proceed into that ATIS,

00:03:58.000 into our controlled airspace, then you do have to essentially have permission to enter that airspace.

00:04:03.000 It's not a restricted airspace like a traditional bombing range, but it is protected airspace.

00:04:09.000 It's our coastal air.

00:04:11.000 So, you have this upgraded radar system, and what are you detecting?

00:04:16.000 So, on the radar, really what we can learn from that is essentially the kinematics of the object.

00:04:22.000 So, where is it essentially?

00:04:24.000 And, you know, what direction is it going?

00:04:26.000 How fast is it going?

00:04:27.000 Things of that nature.

00:04:29.000 We can't necessarily make up the shape or things of that nature.

00:04:32.000 So, it's a representation.

00:04:33.000 It's like a block on our screen to show that information.

00:04:36.000 And so when we see that on our radar, we can tell, you know, where it's located, you know, perhaps what's located around it, if there's other objects we're detecting, how fast it's going, what direction it's pointed in, what direction it's traveling in.

00:04:52.000 So we call that velocity vector.

00:04:54.000 So if we see this essentially little circle, it'll have a tail coming off of it.

00:04:58.000 And that tail kind of represents the nose of the vehicle, at least as its flight path is going.

00:05:03.000 And so with that, you know, we would typically see an aircraft just kind of trudging along with a straight line, taking occasional turns.

00:05:11.000 But these objects had a little bit more of a, I don't want to say random, but more less controlled flight path.

00:05:21.000 That velocity vector would kind of jump around a bit more.

00:05:24.000 They would not proceed in like a perfectly straight line as you would imagine like a flight navigation computer would take you, right?

00:05:31.000 It takes you from A to B in the straightest line possible.

00:05:34.000 These objects seem to kind of be moving in a direction that was not a straight line but generally proceeding in that direction.

00:05:41.000 And so they would kind of be meandering slightly but moving in that general direction both three-dimensionally and horizontally.

00:05:47.000 So winding around, going up, going down.

00:05:51.000 So they're not on a flat plane and they're not going in a straight line.

00:05:54.000 So I don't want to draw too many firm statements like that because we would see them being flat too.

00:05:59.000 We'd see them perfectly stationary up there regardless of the wind.

00:06:04.000 Really?

00:06:05.000 Yep.

00:06:06.000 Wow.

00:06:07.000 So what kind of wind are you talking about?

00:06:09.000 Oh gosh, I mean at altitude you can have anywhere up to 100-120 knots of airspeed.

00:06:14.000 What is that in miles per hour?

00:06:16.000 It's about 130, 140 miles per hour.

00:06:18.000 So they're completely stationary with a 140-mile-an-hour wind?

00:06:22.000 Correct.

00:06:23.000 How would something do that?

00:06:24.000 It's confusing to me as well.

00:06:26.000 Even if we had something that could just burn that much energy, right?

00:06:30.000 Like if you had a sphere surrounded by little rockets, right?

00:06:33.000 Just imagining something right now.

00:06:35.000 Okay.

00:06:35.000 And if you wanted to keep that perfectly stationary, right, against...

00:06:41.000 Gravity.

00:06:41.000 You could just fire all the rockets at the bottom really fast and hopefully keep it flat, right?

00:06:45.000 Right.

00:06:45.000 It's going to have tiny little variations.

00:06:47.000 And then if you have wind hitting it and all this, you could potentially have those rockets try to counter it, but it would never be perfectly still in winds like that.

00:06:53.000 Because the wind's not perfectly still either, right?

00:06:56.000 Exactly.

00:06:57.000 It changes and varies.

00:06:58.000 It does.

00:06:58.000 So it's almost like it's the wind.

00:06:59.000 It's not even really fighting the wind, it seems.

00:07:01.000 It just seems like it's just there in a way.

00:07:04.000 Wow.

00:07:06.000 So the first time you see these things, what are your thoughts?

00:07:12.000 Yeah, the first time really was, well, you know, what is this, right?

00:07:15.000 It's not a UFO or something mysterious at this point.

00:07:19.000 It's at what we're thinking at this point we see on the radar is just, well, our radar is broken, right?

00:07:24.000 These perhaps don't represent physical objects yet because we hadn't, you know, visually seen these or seen them on our camera yet.

00:07:31.000 And so, you know, we kind of like, hey, what's going on here?

00:07:34.000 You know, is anyone all seeing this kind of thing?

00:07:37.000 But not really like investigating it, right?

00:07:40.000 It's just kind of like, all right, there's stuff out there, but maybe next time we'll take a look.

00:07:44.000 But the way our systems work, when we have all these contacts on our radar, and if we kind of just select one out with our little cursor there, All our sensors go to it.

00:07:53.000 Our FLIR goes to it, which is our camera system.

00:07:57.000 All our weapons, they have their own little eyes in some sense, and they all look in that direction.

00:08:02.000 And so eventually, someone had one of these selected and flew close enough so that as they look at their FLIR system, their camera, they could see something that was at the spot represented on the radar, right?

00:08:15.000 So there was something there.

00:08:16.000 So they were seeing it visually with their own eyes?

00:08:18.000 Not at this point.

00:08:19.000 Just on the FLIR system.

00:08:20.000 The FLIR system.

00:08:21.000 And so that's a...

00:08:22.000 It's a regular camera and also an infrared camera.

00:08:25.000 And so typically we'll roll around in infrared just because it returns a better image typically.

00:08:30.000 So...

00:08:32.000 So yeah, you know, it didn't look like an object they were seeing on the FLIR. It just looked like a source of IR energy in a sense, almost as if someone was shining a flashlight.

00:08:40.000 But something had to be there to be reflecting that energy or creating it.

00:08:44.000 So at this point, to answer your question, now we're like, okay, this isn't just an error in our radar.

00:08:49.000 This is perhaps, you know, we're thinking this is real.

00:08:51.000 We have to really respect this as like a safety hazard now.

00:08:54.000 Even if it's just a small, you know, however small ribbon of tinfoil, right, like that, suck down the engine and still take out an aircraft, right?

00:09:04.000 So we have to be very respectful of that.

00:09:05.000 Like a mylar balloon type thing?

00:09:07.000 Potentially, right, yeah.

00:09:08.000 But how fast are these things going?

00:09:11.000 So, sometimes stationary, right?

00:09:14.000 Sometimes they would be going around 0.6 to 0.8 Mach, which is at altitude about, you know, 240 to maybe 330 knots, you know, around there.

00:09:25.000 So, somewhere in the range of an airplane.

00:09:27.000 Yeah, a fighter aircraft would be kind of flying around at those airspeeds, except sometimes they would be perfectly stationary as well.

00:09:35.000 Right.

00:09:35.000 So it's not exhibiting any sort of patterns that you've recognized in the past?

00:09:41.000 No, they have actually.

00:09:44.000 With the stationary, no, right?

00:09:46.000 Correct.

00:09:46.000 With the stationary, no.

00:09:47.000 With the meandering kind of flight path, no.

00:09:50.000 But I would also see them essentially fly what we call a racetrack pattern.

00:09:54.000 And essentially what that means is they fly in a straight path and then they do like a 180 degree turn in a certain direction.

00:10:00.000 Then they fly a straight path and turn again.

00:10:03.000 So that's what we call a racetrack pattern as opposed to a circular holding pattern.

00:10:09.000 We did witness racetrack patterns.

00:10:11.000 In fact, I think there's been some cases off the West Coast just the past couple weeks where people have also been observing objects flying in racetrack patterns high at altitude with lights.

00:10:21.000 So I do recognize that behavior, but I don't necessarily think that means we have to attribute it to normal behavior necessarily.

00:10:30.000 That type of flight path is important because it's a very efficient way to fly.

00:10:35.000 If you have to maintain the position in a certain area, you want to minimize how much you're turning.

00:10:41.000 Anytime you're turning in an aircraft, you're using more energy than if you were just flying straight and level.

00:10:46.000 And so by having a racetrack pattern, it's an efficient way of holding in a position by maximizing straight and level time and minimizing your turn time.

00:10:54.000 And how long would these things stay up there for?

00:10:58.000 So, from my experience, from our experience, and again, we weren't studying these, but they were always out there.

00:11:04.000 You know, they were out there when we took off, we'd see them, and then we'd go to land, they would still be out there.

00:11:08.000 Like every day?

00:11:09.000 Every day.

00:11:10.000 Every day.

00:11:11.000 Every day.

00:11:11.000 So, you guys go from not having any idea that these things are out there, to an upgraded radar system, to seeing them every day?

00:11:20.000 Yep.

00:11:21.000 What is the thought?

00:11:22.000 How are you feeling?

00:11:25.000 Is there an evolution of the thought pattern of how you're addressing these things and thinking about them?

00:11:32.000 Initially, you're thinking they're errors.

00:11:34.000 When do you start getting a thought like, what the fuck is this thing?

00:11:40.000 So that happened when we visually saw one.

00:11:43.000 And the first time we visually saw one, the object was directly at what we call the entry point of the area.

00:11:50.000 So, you know, that box that I told you about in the sky that starts 10 miles off the coast, there's a particular GPS, you know, location and altitude where incoming traffic will fly in and outbound traffic will fly in the exact same spot but will fly out a thousand feet lower.

00:12:07.000 There were two aircraft from my squadron, VFA-11, and we flew, or excuse me, they flew, took off as a flight of two.

00:12:15.000 That means they're essentially flying in a formation like this.

00:12:18.000 And as they hit the area, one of these objects went right between the aircraft.

00:12:22.000 The lead aircrew saw the object.

00:12:26.000 The Dash 2 aircraft crew did not, which is not surprising because they're usually, you know, you're very focused on flying formation.

00:12:33.000 You're just staring right at that aircraft.

00:12:35.000 The lead really has actual leeway to look around.

00:12:38.000 So he saw it and, you know, he immediately came back.

00:12:42.000 I have to assume he didn't have it on his radar because he wouldn't have flown through this object at the entrance point.

00:12:48.000 He flew, he turned around, flew back, landed, and I was in the ready room when he'd come back.

00:12:54.000 And, you know, he had all his gear on, which typically is not a good thing, because you want to get that stuff off as fast as possible.

00:13:00.000 So, usually means, you know, there's a problem of some nature.

00:13:04.000 And, you know, he was just sitting there saying, hey, you know, I almost hit one of those damn things.

00:13:08.000 And we all knew what he was referring to, even though we didn't necessarily have a name for it just because we were seeing these so much.

00:13:14.000 And he described it, you know, he described it just as a black or dark gray cube.

00:13:19.000 And that cube was inside of a clear translucent sphere.

00:13:23.000 And essentially the apex or the corners of that cube, best he could tell, were touching that inside of that sphere.

00:13:31.000 And that description mirrors many of the descriptions that people have had of these, whatever you want to call them.

00:13:39.000 They're calling them UAPs now for some strange reason.

00:13:42.000 UFOs, I don't know, does it have a dirty connotation to it?

00:13:45.000 Is it tainted because of so many crazy people talk about UFOs?

00:13:49.000 Is that what it is?

00:13:50.000 It does come with a lot of assumptions baked in.

00:13:52.000 Yeah.

00:13:52.000 Baked in, yeah.

00:13:54.000 So that's something...

00:13:56.000 But whatever it is, that is a design that people have reported seeing before, that this translucent sphere and this cube...

00:14:05.000 Can you see through the cube?

00:14:08.000 Not to my understanding, no.

00:14:09.000 So it's some sort of solid black cube that's inside this translucent sphere, and it's just floating around and flying around the sky.

00:14:20.000 So, you know, that's a good point.

00:14:22.000 Is it floating around?

00:14:23.000 Is it flying around?

00:14:24.000 It's doing both, which is strange, right?

00:14:26.000 Because you could think of that description, okay, that's kind of some kind of weird balloon maybe with stuff in it.

00:14:31.000 And that's certainly, you know, one way, if you just view that angle of it, then it seems explainable.

00:14:36.000 But when that, you know, the balloon-like object starts cruising down at, you know, 0.8 Mach, you know, that nullifies that particular object.

00:14:45.000 Idea.

00:14:46.000 And you'll see.

00:14:47.000 You'll see that a lot where it's not just like that one picture or that one behavior.

00:14:50.000 It's really kind of to zoom out a bit and look at everything in relation to each other and say, okay, why is this weird?

00:14:55.000 You know, okay.

00:14:56.000 It was hanging out in a racetrack pattern.

00:14:58.000 That's not exotic.

00:14:59.000 But when you learned it was doing it for, you know, perhaps 13 hours.

00:15:03.000 13 hours.

00:15:05.000 You know, perhaps.

00:15:05.000 They were out there all the time, you know.

00:15:07.000 So, you know.

00:15:08.000 I land and I go back, and we weren't on an Intel mission to analyze these, right?

00:15:13.000 We're going to do our training.

00:15:15.000 It's very expensive, 30k an hour to fly these things, right?

00:15:17.000 So really the only time we can put energy into looking at these things is when we're kind of transiting back and forth or waiting for a fight to start.

00:15:25.000 And so, you know, it's never like a dedicated analysis.

00:15:28.000 One of the problems I've had is that, you know, people haven't wanted to look into and to study this topic.

00:15:36.000 And people ask me all the time, okay, you know, what were you seeing on the jet?

00:15:39.000 What were you seeing in the radar?

00:15:41.000 I want to be able to tell them that there was a great thing that we saw, but an F-18 is not a scientific tool, right?

00:15:47.000 We only get presented a certain amount of information when all the sensors essentially filter all the data out so that we can prosecute the targets and do our job.

00:15:57.000 It's not some type of like analog, you know, information we receive.

00:16:01.000 So, you know, just because, say, something is showing jamming on my radar from one of these objects doesn't mean the object is executing, you know, electronic warfare to jam my jet.

00:16:11.000 It just means that, you know, it's doing something to a radar signal, and when it comes back, you know, our jet is processing it like its EW. So we need to get proper scientific tools to do an analysis on these objects instead of basing, you know, a lot of our analysis right now just on tools of war that aren't built for them.

00:16:28.000 Right.

00:16:30.000 How long can you guys stay up in an F-18?

00:16:33.000 If we're dogfighting, about an hour.

00:16:35.000 If we're holding at.6 to.8 Mach, you know, like I described them as doing, somewhere maybe around like two, two and a half hours maximum.

00:16:44.000 And you think that these things were up there for far longer than that.

00:16:48.000 So how big was this thing when this guy saw it?

00:16:52.000 So it's very difficult to tell in the air.

00:16:55.000 But because they were flying in formation, we can make some estimated guesses essentially.

00:16:59.000 And that's what we did when we talked about it afterwards, right?

00:17:01.000 So the aircraft were about 100 feet apart.

00:17:03.000 This thing, they estimate it essentially split the section, which means it went more or less right down the middle, but slightly closer to lead, which would put it somewhere less than 50 feet on average if they're about 100 feet.

00:17:17.000 So he essentially used that size reference to say, hey, this might have been somewhere in the 5 to 15 foot diameter.

00:17:26.000 It's not a tight guess, but that's the best we could come up with.

00:17:30.000 And what is it like?

00:17:33.000 What's the atmosphere like when you go back to the base?

00:17:38.000 Are you allowed to discuss this?

00:17:40.000 Is this something that's openly talked about?

00:17:42.000 Is this something that you get ridiculed for?

00:17:46.000 It's just, you know, like you would expect any group of, you know, dude and dudettes, you know, hearing about this to just kind of, you know, do the normal reaction like anyone else and to kind of, you know, make the jokes and then kind of get back to work, essentially, because, you know,

00:18:02.000 we're just so busy at this time, right?

00:18:03.000 We're getting ready for war.

00:18:05.000 Like, for a lot of us, this is the apex of our career to sense, to get ready for deployment, you know?

00:18:11.000 It's kind of like the long blade gets cut in a sense in a fighter community like that.

00:18:15.000 It's very much a trust-based organization.

00:18:18.000 So no one's out there looking to make a big deal out of something that's completely irrelevant in our eyes to our day-to-day operations other than a safety risk.

00:18:28.000 It's really, like, as much as we could process it.

00:18:30.000 So, yeah, there was ridicule, but I don't think it was...

00:18:33.000 I wouldn't say it was, like, over-the-top or emotionally damaging, but, you know, it made clear it wasn't something to, like, you know, we were going to, like, put serious thought and energy into.

00:18:41.000 You know, it was, hey, yeah, stay away and, you know, let me know how you did in that next fight, essentially.

00:18:45.000 Yeah.

00:18:46.000 And when you discussed this, how many other people came forward with similar stories?

00:18:52.000 It was less about people coming forward because everyone was just like, well, yeah, of course, we see them out there.

00:18:56.000 Like, at this point, it was almost a safety issue at this point.

00:19:00.000 Well, let me back up.

00:19:01.000 At first, you know, as soon as people, you know, the joke subsided when people eventually flew in a jet with upgraded radar and saw it themselves, right?

00:19:08.000 So, you know, it dwindled down where everyone was aware of this and it was just a safety hazard.

00:19:14.000 But when we almost had the midair, that kind of upped the ante, right?

00:19:16.000 Because we were kind of getting pissed at this point because, you know, the high probability answer was that this was some type of classified program of our own making that had perhaps just started operating in an area they weren't supposed to for whatever reason.

00:19:32.000 That was, you know, that was kind of our assumption.

00:19:35.000 So we submitted a safety report because of that near midair, a HAZREP or hazard report, which is essentially a notice that goes out to the whole fleet that says, you know, this is a potential hazard that could cause the loss of an aircraft.

00:19:50.000 And, you know, it was due to us almost hitting an unknown object of unknown origin.

00:19:55.000 And that's how it continued for a while.

00:19:57.000 And there was a number of HAZREPs about that, about near misses.

00:20:01.000 Eventually, they put out what's called a NOTAM, or Noticed Airmen, which is published on a federal website, which essentially lists things like, hey, the runway lights are down, or they're working on this runway, or this area is closed for something.

00:20:17.000 And we had one in our local area that said, you know, caution for the unknown objects working in our operating areas.

00:20:25.000 We just don't know what they are, essentially.

00:20:27.000 So that's just kind of where it stagnated at that point as far as, you know, resolution.

00:20:32.000 That's got to be a very bizarre feeling.

00:20:35.000 You're flying around in these jets preparing for deployment, and you see things that are...

00:20:44.000 If not unexplainable, haven't been explained yet.

00:20:50.000 It just didn't fit into our framework, right?

00:20:53.000 Even if we look at, so, you know, when we really kind of were trying to hash it out in the squadron, it's, you know, okay, what could these be?

00:20:59.000 And even the classified, you know, drone thing, and I'm not even going to consider all the things that have happened since then, but even at this time, you know, the drone thing didn't make sense to us for a number of reasons.

00:21:09.000 One of those is, you know, why, right?

00:21:13.000 Why do we have potentially hundreds or more, you know, small drones that can perform better than anything we've seen just hanging out, you know, for years off the coast?

00:21:23.000 And is there a visible method of propulsion that's coming from these objects?

00:21:27.000 No.

00:21:28.000 What about a heat signature?

00:21:29.000 No.

00:21:31.000 So, yeah, so there's no plume of heat coming out the back.

00:21:35.000 There's no propellers.

00:21:35.000 There's no wing surfaces that we've seen.

00:21:38.000 And when you're looking at it, are you looking at it through some sort of an infrared that will detect heat?

00:21:43.000 You don't see anything?

00:21:44.000 Usually through infrared, yeah.

00:21:45.000 And so, you know, it'll come back as either a white hut or a dark hut, which means, you know, black color represents heat.

00:21:53.000 Hut?

00:21:53.000 What is hut?

00:21:55.000 Essentially, if we're looking at an object against a blue sky, if that thing's producing heat, then it's going to come out white in white hut.

00:22:04.000 So if I see a white object, it's going to be a hot object, and the sky is going to look blue.

00:22:08.000 What's that word hut you're using?

00:22:09.000 H-O-T. H-O-T. Oh, hot.

00:22:11.000 Like the temperature.

00:22:12.000 Okay.

00:22:13.000 Okay.

00:22:13.000 A little New England accent coming out.

00:22:15.000 No, it's okay.

00:22:15.000 I'm from New England too.

00:22:16.000 I thought it was something else.

00:22:18.000 I thought it was like a technical term.

00:22:19.000 Yeah.

00:22:20.000 So yeah, you know, and I say that just to say that, you know, it would just be like either all like completely one temperature essentially, right?

00:22:28.000 It wasn't like the skin of an aircraft you could see.

00:22:30.000 It was just kind of like an emission of IR energy, like a flashlight, right?

00:22:33.000 Sometimes, most of the time it would be cold.

00:22:36.000 It was like a cold object.

00:22:38.000 So it didn't appear to actually be emitting heat.

00:22:40.000 There were times when they did appear to be emitting as hot objects as well.

00:22:45.000 So we did see both, so I don't know what to make of that.

00:22:48.000 Was there a difference in the way they were moving when it was exhibiting heat?

00:22:54.000 Not that I know.

00:22:56.000 You know, I don't want to say no, but we just didn't look at it deep enough to say that at the time.

00:23:02.000 But whatever it was doing, it wasn't exhibiting any of the characteristics that you would normally expect from a jet or a drone or something that had some sort of a visible method of propulsion.

00:23:13.000 Yeah.

00:23:14.000 Wow.

00:23:15.000 So when these things are happening every day, And all these different pilots are experiencing them every day.

00:23:24.000 This is essentially just from the moment of 2014-ish when this new radar system gets implemented.

00:23:32.000 So you had one sense of what was out there, and then all of a sudden you have these new systems, and now you're like, whoa, this is littered with these things.

00:23:42.000 Yeah.

00:23:43.000 What is that like?

00:23:45.000 For you personally, what does that feel like?

00:23:47.000 You know, it's just comforting.

00:23:49.000 We spend a lot of time and energy on the most basic aspects of flight in a sense, right?

00:23:54.000 Because if you can't just operate safely, right?

00:23:56.000 You can't come back and land and manage your fuel and not bust through altitudes and all that.

00:24:01.000 You can't do all the other stuff, right?

00:24:03.000 And so we're very particular on those type of details.

00:24:06.000 So to have someone operating in that area would be a massive oversight.

00:24:11.000 So it was, you know, in a sense, we kind of, at least I did, felt a bit let down, right?

00:24:15.000 It was like, you know, someone should be willing to look at this and deal with this problem, you know?

00:24:21.000 If it was going to constantly...

00:24:23.000 It's not that it was constantly getting laughed at.

00:24:24.000 It's just we always had more bigger fish to fry, essentially.

00:24:27.000 Right.

00:24:28.000 Which I respect and I understand, but it doesn't mean we completely ignore that, right?

00:24:34.000 And we have to do more than just...

00:24:35.000 We have responsibility, I think, as aviators when we're up there to report really what we're seeing because we're on the front line of what we can see up there.

00:24:43.000 And if we don't have...

00:24:46.000 The command or operational support to tell the truth about what we're seeing up there, then things have to change.

00:24:53.000 And the ramifications of what these things possibly could be, how much does that weigh on you?

00:24:59.000 Because if these things are from another world or from the ocean or from another dimension or fill in the blank, whatever you think it could be, That alone has got to be very weird to experience because this is not something that's being openly discussed.

00:25:16.000 So you're just flying around out there, you get this new equipment, and then all of a sudden you're like, hey, there's some stuff out here that we have no knowledge of, and it's moving in a way that we really can't explain.

00:25:29.000 What is that like?

00:25:32.000 We never really appreciated it at the time.

00:25:34.000 Really?

00:25:34.000 Really.

00:25:35.000 Because you're so mission-focused.

00:25:36.000 You're so mission-focused.

00:25:37.000 And the point when we kind of left our squadron, we left for deployment in 2015. And so this was still happening.

00:25:45.000 It was prior to the point that they started putting that notice out to airmen, the NOTAM out.

00:25:51.000 So they still not even got to the point to have that general notice.

00:25:55.000 It was just people sending out the occasional hazard reports and left from an individual squadron.

00:26:00.000 And then we left for deployment.

00:26:03.000 Well, excuse me.

00:26:04.000 We left for workups first, I should say.

00:26:07.000 So let me backtrack a little bit.

00:26:10.000 As we get ready for deployment, we have our date where we leave.

00:26:13.000 But then about six months prior to that, we're gone to the aircraft carrier and the different training areas to essentially get ready for that deployment and practice like we play.

00:26:23.000 So we start going with the boat.

00:26:24.000 We live on the boat.

00:26:25.000 We start doing tactics off the boat.

00:26:28.000 And we left to go down to the coast of Jacksonville, Florida on an event where we essentially do exactly that.

00:26:37.000 We fly out on the aircraft carrier and we do a number of tactical missions to simulate that we are in an operational theater.

00:26:45.000 And honestly, it's more dangerous and likely difficult in a lot of cases than the actual combat deployment.

00:26:51.000 We're preparing for every eventuality, air-to-air combat, rescue missions, everything.

00:26:57.000 But of course, not everything gets exercised when you get out there.

00:27:01.000 So it's much more dangerous and pretty intense.

00:27:05.000 And so that's what we were getting ready to go do.

00:27:07.000 And then we left and we did that.

00:27:08.000 And when we got down in that area from Virginia Beach, we noticed that these objects were down there as well.

00:27:16.000 We didn't know whether they came with us or whether they were already down there.

00:27:19.000 But once we started flying off the boat, about 1,500 miles or so south of Virginia Beach, there they were again.

00:27:28.000 And it was in my squadron again when the video that's known as the gimbal video now, when that was recorded when we were on that workup cycle out in Jacksonville.

00:27:39.000 We should play the gimbal video.

00:27:41.000 Jamie, will you please pull that up?

00:27:44.000 Because I want you to kind of give us an understanding from your own expertise, like your technical understanding of what we're looking at.

00:27:53.000 So here it is.

00:27:56.000 So this is FLIR footage?

00:27:59.000 Yep.

00:27:59.000 So when I say FLIR, this is what I'm referring to.

00:28:02.000 And right in the middle of the top of the screen, you see IR, infrared.

00:28:06.000 So that's that infrared mode where we're seeing heat right now.

00:28:10.000 We are in black hot.

00:28:13.000 So that means objects that are darker are hotter.

00:28:17.000 So this object right in the middle is putting heat out.

00:28:21.000 And right now it appears to be rotating?

00:28:25.000 Is that what it was doing there?

00:28:27.000 Yeah, exactly.

00:28:28.000 So, we do see this object...

00:28:31.000 I mean, it looks like a gimbal.

00:28:32.000 That's why it's called it, I think.

00:28:33.000 I didn't name it.

00:28:34.000 But we do.

00:28:35.000 We see the object essentially rotate from what looks like a horizontal position here.

00:28:39.000 Those lines above it represent the horizon, so it's essentially parallel.

00:28:44.000 There it goes.

00:28:44.000 And it's hard to make out the shape of this thing, but it seems almost like a disc with a crown on the top and the bottom.

00:28:54.000 Yeah, kind of like it looks like almost like a little bit of energy coming out from the poles there, if you will.

00:29:00.000 That's kind of how I describe it.

00:29:01.000 I see like a little bit of the dark, you know, heat emanating from there or the energy as I call it.

00:29:06.000 And is there any way from this video, from this equipment to detect how large this thing is?

00:29:14.000 There is.

00:29:15.000 So the velocity vector in the middle there can be set to a particular size.

00:29:22.000 And that size correlates to a particular length.

00:29:25.000 So that in a dogfight, if you have, you know, you're behind a guy and you essentially, his wingspan is equal to the length of those two lines on that circle with the lines coming out.

00:29:37.000 You see that?

00:29:37.000 That's a velocity vector.

00:29:38.000 Then you know how far away he is, right?

00:29:40.000 So it's kind of like an analog thing that's not super relevant in modern age, but yes, there is.

00:29:45.000 I don't know, however, what that is set to in this one, so I can't make that calculation for you right now.

00:29:51.000 Now, I know some people who have attempted to debunk this and debunk even the rotation of this object.

00:29:58.000 How do you know that that object is rotating definitively?

00:30:06.000 Well, so we don't, right?

00:30:09.000 We don't necessarily definitively know it's rotating at the end of the day, right?

00:30:12.000 We have evidence that it is, but I don't have definitive evidence that you're a conscious human being on the other side of the table with me either.

00:30:19.000 I see what you're saying.

00:30:20.000 You know what I mean?

00:30:20.000 Like, we just don't have that information.

00:30:21.000 So you only have video footage, and in the video footage, it appears right now, in relation to where it sits on the clouds, that it has rotated.

00:30:28.000 Yeah.

00:30:29.000 Yes.

00:30:29.000 So, you know, we can also see if you, and I know it's been done, people have created models out there that, you know, essentially look at the clouds and they draw out a flight path that this could be at.

00:30:44.000 And the only variable is essentially how far away the object is.

00:30:48.000 And that flight path obeys, you know, an equation that can be observed pretty readily when, you know, you build the little model.

00:30:55.000 And essentially, if you're at, you know, six miles or so, the object is proceeding in direction, and then when it starts to rotate, as the aircraft described, it climbs and reverses directions.

00:31:08.000 So you can't quite make that out, but when you actually model it out, you can see that at these ranges, it does what was claimed.

00:31:16.000 And we're kind of skipping a little bit on the story, so maybe I should back up.

00:31:19.000 So, you know, when this object was observed, the air crew essentially saw it on what they call a situational awareness page.

00:31:28.000 And so that is a God's eye view of all the sensor data and everything else that our jets and other jets put out, right?

00:31:37.000 And so we can put cursors on and move around, select stuff.

00:31:41.000 And what the air crew described during this video verbally is a formation of objects and then the gimbal object.

00:31:49.000 So what happened was, you know, we had all gone out on an air-to-air training mission during this workup cycle off of the aircraft carrier, the Theodore Roosevelt.

00:31:58.000 And again, we're off the coast of Jacksonville, Florida.

00:32:01.000 And, you know, there's like four or five or six, you know, red fighters, which are our own guys or gals acting as the enemy.

00:32:09.000 And then we go up and act as the blue fighters and go do our tactics.

00:32:14.000 Yeah.

00:32:15.000 I was part of the flight.

00:32:16.000 We all flew up there.

00:32:17.000 When we kind of run out of gas during the fight, you kind of just return by yourself.

00:32:21.000 And if you still have gas, you continue the fight type of thing.

00:32:24.000 So we don't always fly home together.

00:32:26.000 In this case, the air crew from the gimbal video, you know, they knocked it off and started flying back to the boat.

00:32:34.000 We don't go like directly back to the boat when we run out of gas.

00:32:37.000 It seems counterintuitive, but we have to wait for our landing time.

00:32:41.000 We can't just come back and land earlier.

00:32:43.000 So it doesn't really matter where we are as long as we're nearby.

00:32:46.000 And we just slow down to what we call our max endurance speed.

00:32:50.000 So we just kind of cruise around, puddle along out there, and just hang out until it's their time to land.

00:32:56.000 And so while they were doing this, they noticed that there was a group of contacts on their situational awareness page, again from their radar.

00:33:03.000 And they're like, hey, maybe this is like a penetration test, because they'll launch aircraft from the coast, like old fighters or just things that can move relatively quick, but not necessarily there to engage us in a dogfight.

00:33:17.000 Let's see if we can detect them and intercept them in time and things of that nature.

00:33:21.000 Part of the overall training.

00:33:23.000 And so when they saw these objects, that's what they thought this was.

00:33:26.000 And so they started flying over to it.

00:33:30.000 And they got, you know, they got about, you know, six to seven, eight miles away.

00:33:34.000 Six to eight is what the air crew told me.

00:33:37.000 They didn't want to get any closer because it was nighttime at this point.

00:33:40.000 They couldn't see the object, which is why they were only in the IR mode.

00:33:45.000 And they essentially, you know, they checked out for a bit and then circled a bit and then flew back essentially as it was time for their recovery.

00:33:52.000 But what they saw was, you know, you saw the gimbal object that we saw in the film, but there was also a formation of like four to five, I might say six, I don't remember the exact number, but somewhere in the four to six range objects that were flying in a wedge formation.

00:34:07.000 So essentially like a triangle without a base.

00:34:11.000 And those objects were kind of proceeding along the same line as the gimbal.

00:34:16.000 From my recollection, the gimbal was, you know, slightly behind that formation.

00:34:20.000 And offset below it.

00:34:22.000 And so that formation essentially kind of just turned in a, I'll call it left-hand turn, in a normal radius of turn to slightly less.

00:34:30.000 But they got all jumbled up.

00:34:31.000 So they just started turning.

00:34:33.000 Instead of like a clean turn where they all kind of stay in the same spot, kind of a big sweeping thing.

00:34:38.000 Instead of that, it was a lot tighter.

00:34:40.000 And they kind of broke down.

00:34:42.000 They didn't look like they were in formation anymore in a sense.

00:34:44.000 You know, they were kind of scattered about.

00:34:46.000 I can't tell which one's which really out there on the radar looking at it, so I don't know if they came back in the same formation, exact same position, but when they rolled out 180 degrees out, basically reversed their direction, you know, they kind of got back into similar if not the same formation, proceeding the opposite direction.

00:35:02.000 And during this time, the gimbal object, you know, again proceeding, call it left to right, trailing this formation, while it kind of executed its radius of turn, the gimbal just essentially was continuing in a straight line, and then as if it like pinged off a wall,

00:35:17.000 just reversed direction to follow that formation, you know, once they had started flowing in the opposite direction.

00:35:24.000 So no turn radius.

00:35:25.000 Just stopped.

00:35:25.000 Stopped in midair and went backwards.

00:35:27.000 I wouldn't even say stopped.

00:35:29.000 It just seemed like it never stopped.

00:35:31.000 It just went ping, you know.

00:35:32.000 Wow.

00:35:33.000 And that's how we saw it from the situational awareness page, from looking down.

00:35:39.000 And so when you lift that up and look at it from the side, what that ping motion looks like is a U-turn, a vertical U-turn to go in the opposite direction.

00:35:49.000 So it climbed to reverse its turn to flow in the opposite direction within about 500 feet, which is a very tight turn.

00:35:56.000 I think an F-18 needs like 6,000 feet or 4,000 feet to do a turn like that.

00:36:02.000 Wow.

00:36:02.000 Yeah.

00:36:03.000 So there's nothing that we have as a drone that's capable of moving like that?

00:36:10.000 So, yeah, again, if you just look at one particular case, it's like, all right, so something climbed vertically in the opposite direction.

00:36:16.000 Like, that's not the sexiest thing in the world.

00:36:18.000 But then let's look back in context and say, okay, we're, you know, 350 miles off the coast in protected airspace around an aircraft carrier.

00:36:26.000 You know, with only fighter jets in the air.

00:36:29.000 And then all of a sudden there's a formation of small objects just kind of cruising around, you know, for a period of time that's unknown, performing the least fuel efficient turns possible, right?

00:36:39.000 Like there's no concern for how fuel efficient that turn is.

00:36:43.000 That's like the least efficient way to do a turn.

00:36:46.000 And so how is an object hundreds of miles off the coast, you know, with apparently no concern for fuel hanging out next to our carrier?

00:36:56.000 And without the FLIR footage, you would have never been able to see these things?

00:37:01.000 Correct, yeah.

00:37:04.000 When you report this, what's the reaction?

00:37:08.000 Like, how does that go?

00:37:10.000 Because we were practicing like we play at this point, getting ready for war, we were doing like a formal intel debrief after our flights, right?

00:37:18.000 Kind of like, hey, we intercept these guys and did that, another thing.

00:37:21.000 And so the aircrew who recorded it were going down to that room to debrief it.

00:37:29.000 And someone told me, like, hey, you know, Your friend there got something interesting on the FLIR this time.

00:37:35.000 You know, maybe you should go take a look or something.

00:37:38.000 Because I had already landed, my gear was off, you know, and so waiting to debrief, essentially.

00:37:43.000 And so I'm like, yeah, I'll go check it out.

00:37:45.000 So I walk down there, you know, it's like the other side of the ship.

00:37:48.000 Go into classified space.

00:37:50.000 All the intel folk are in there.

00:37:51.000 And they're queuing up the video, the tapes, to watch the FLIR footage.

00:37:57.000 And here's an interesting thing too, right?

00:37:59.000 So the situational awareness page, that screen I told you about with radar data, that's kind of in a screen that's, you know, chest level.

00:38:07.000 And then there's a screen here, screen here, eye level on either side.

00:38:12.000 And if you record, we put the FLIR here, the standard procedure, and the situational awareness page down here.

00:38:17.000 And then we'll have a radar up here or any of our other systems.

00:38:21.000 If you record this screen with the FLIR, you record the SA page automatically.

00:38:26.000 It's part of the same tape.

00:38:30.000 What's interesting is that's what we watched when we were in that intel space.

00:38:35.000 I was able to see the FLIR footage, and that's what we just watched.

00:38:39.000 And then the situational awareness page with the radar data showed that as well, which showed the fleet and showed that movement I described.

00:38:48.000 If that FLIR footage exists, then the radar data for that event exists as well.

00:38:54.000 Because it's filmed at the same time.

00:38:56.000 So someone would have had to specifically split it off to get the gimbal video out without the radar data.

00:39:05.000 So the gimbal video was leaked.

00:39:07.000 Is that what happened?

00:39:09.000 I don't know the exact mechanics.

00:39:10.000 My understanding, that's the way it could be described, but it was done within channels that doesn't make it an illegal activity.

00:39:18.000 But I honestly don't know the mechanics of how it was released.

00:39:21.000 So somehow or another, it gets out there and it gets online, but the situational awareness page and the radar data does not.

00:39:28.000 You only get the FLIR footage.

00:39:30.000 Correct.

00:39:30.000 Why do you think that is?

00:39:31.000 I think there's good reasons for that.

00:39:33.000 You know, I don't think it's overly mysterious.

00:39:34.000 You know, our radar sensor systems are our primary sensor out there.

00:39:38.000 They're how we employ our weapons.

00:39:39.000 And that's all fine.

00:39:40.000 I think that's completely reasonable to not have that released, like, Because it's top secret?

00:39:44.000 Because it would be some sort of a breach of security?

00:39:48.000 Yeah, it would give away, like, how well our radar works, essentially, right?

00:39:51.000 But with that being said, you know, there's still ways you can take that information and declassify it and just put the raw data out there in a sense, like the kinematics, right?

00:40:00.000 Like, okay, we're detecting objects that move like this, you know, there's no location, there's no, like, specific, you know, there's specifics that have been kind of fleshed out.

00:40:09.000 There's, like, mathematical tools that can do that with, like, you know, precision and certainty.

00:40:13.000 So there are ways to declassify that data.

00:40:17.000 One of the efforts that I'm doing at the American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics with the UAP community of interest that I've helped put together is essentially preparing teams to do that, you know, analysis.

00:40:28.000 We have a team of engineers, aerospace and others that have, you know, over 300 years of NASA experience, you know, at least.

00:40:37.000 That are working to put together, you know, engineering and scientific UAP sensing manuals that can be updated yearly so that the information that we learn going forward in a productive manner isn't something that we need to necessarily get disclosed from the government in order to move forward on.

00:40:57.000 So when you're watching the FLIR footage and you're looking at the situational awareness page and you're seeing these objects, you've already had experiences with these things by then?

00:41:09.000 So the gimbal was new.

00:41:10.000 With something?

00:41:11.000 Yeah, we hadn't seen the gimbal yet though.

00:41:12.000 So this is different than the other objects that you've seen?

00:41:15.000 Yeah.

00:41:16.000 So the gimbal object at this time...

00:41:17.000 What is a gimbal?

00:41:19.000 By the way.

00:41:19.000 A spinning top?

00:41:20.000 That's what I think of, right?

00:41:21.000 Oh, okay.

00:41:36.000 But this particular shape of UAP, you had not witnessed before.

00:41:41.000 Had you heard of something like this before?

00:41:44.000 No.

00:41:45.000 No.

00:41:45.000 And let me say, it's not necessarily the shape that Well, one gives it the name and even is what we were analyzing, right?

00:41:55.000 Because what we see in that video is IR energy.

00:41:57.000 And that could be anything.

00:41:59.000 Is there a plasma field there, but the surface is smaller?

00:42:02.000 Or is there some type of energy out there or heat that is masking the shape of the object?

00:42:07.000 We don't really know the size or the physical shape of the object from that image.

00:42:12.000 Right, you're just getting the signature.

00:42:14.000 So when everyone is observing this, how many people are in the room with you when this is going down?

00:42:19.000 Yeah, there's maybe like 15 or so.

00:42:22.000 A lot of intel people, you know, a handful of aviators, and then of course the air crew.

00:42:28.000 What's the reaction?

00:42:29.000 Everyone just kind of looking around at each other, just kind of like, you know, holy shit.

00:42:32.000 Like, you know, there was no like, oh, that's prosaic or that's...

00:42:36.000 There was no conclusions drawn, but everyone just kind of like had no idea what it was.

00:42:40.000 And the people that were in there, had they also used this upgraded equipment so they were all aware that there was something going on out there?

00:42:48.000 Like, this is a narrative that's being discussed?

00:42:51.000 All the aviators, yeah.

00:42:52.000 So everyone kind of knows that you're not alone out there.

00:42:56.000 It's a good question.

00:42:57.000 I don't even know how many of the intel folks knew at this point, but I mean, at least our squadron intel guy did, and I know a handful of others, but I honestly don't know how many of the intel folks were aware at this point.

00:43:07.000 Is there a discussion about how much of this can you talk about openly?

00:43:15.000 Is everyone going, huh?

00:43:17.000 What is it like?

00:43:18.000 Yeah, pretty much that, huh, right?

00:43:20.000 And kind of just waiting for someone to provide some, you know, leadership on this.

00:43:23.000 So, like, what the fuck?

00:43:26.000 What leadership is available if an alien spacecraft shows up?

00:43:30.000 Well, apparently they called the Admiral, right?

00:43:32.000 So, they're like, let's see what the Admiral thinks.

00:43:34.000 And so, I kind of, like, kind of slowly walked into the shadows so no one kicked me out, you know?

00:43:39.000 Right.

00:43:40.000 Because you want to know.

00:43:41.000 Yeah, I want to see what his reaction at least was, you know?

00:43:44.000 And he came down in a couple minutes and he watched it for like five, six seconds.

00:43:49.000 And he just turned around and was like, hmm, just walked out.

00:43:52.000 Whoa.

00:43:53.000 Yeah.

00:43:54.000 So I was like, I think he's clearly seen this before.

00:43:56.000 Yeah.

00:43:57.000 Yeah.

00:43:58.000 That's my thought.

00:43:59.000 That would immediately be my thought.

00:44:01.000 If he's just going on.

00:44:02.000 Like, unless he's so fucking jaded...

00:44:05.000 The guy who's seen so much shit.

00:44:06.000 That might be worse.

00:44:08.000 Holy shit.

00:44:08.000 Yeah, maybe you need to retire, buddy.

00:44:10.000 You've seen too much shit.

00:44:12.000 But I would imagine, if that's his reaction, that this is something that he's observed before.

00:44:17.000 So fast forward a couple years, and we'll come back, but...

00:44:20.000 I, at this point, talked to various people on the Hill and had been involved with some people that had looked into this, and one of them mentioned to me, hey, your inclination was correct.

00:44:34.000 After he saw that video, he essentially came back and called us to report that these fucking objects were still in his airspace and were looking for some type of answer of what to do about them.

00:44:47.000 Wow.

00:44:47.000 And was there any sort of conclusion?

00:44:51.000 Is there any sort of protocol that gets established afterwards to what to do when you encounter these things?

00:44:58.000 So to answer that in the worst way possible, you know, we walk back to our ready room and of course then we're all like, you know, talking about it and like, well, what's this?

00:45:07.000 Because we've seen the other objects.

00:45:09.000 Like from the best we could tell, the formation represented the objects we were used to seeing.

00:45:16.000 We're good to go.

00:45:33.000 It was still just like, all right, just another weird thing here at this point.

00:45:37.000 And again, we're in a super stressful time, right?

00:45:39.000 Right.

00:45:40.000 18-hour days, you know, it's a stressful time.

00:45:43.000 But yeah, I look back and I feel like I have to defend that decision because it's like, why weren't you more curious?

00:45:49.000 Why weren't you more into it?

00:45:51.000 Or why didn't you think to explore this part of it?

00:45:55.000 But yeah, we were just busy.

00:45:58.000 We were just so focused on what we were doing and trying to do it the best we could.

00:46:02.000 When you guys are alone, like if you're having dinner or you're just alone having a beer, do these things come up in conversation?

00:46:12.000 Yeah, absolutely.

00:46:13.000 Especially over a beer.

00:46:14.000 Yeah.

00:46:15.000 Are there more different shapes and more different types of these objects?

00:46:23.000 The observations off the East Coast, we talked to other people in other squadrons with similar capabilities, and they were describing it the same way, the Cuban sphere.

00:46:32.000 Same color, same, you know, everything.

00:46:34.000 And does that seem indicative of things that you only see on the East Coast?

00:46:39.000 So far as I know, you know, again, there's no...

00:46:42.000 I wish there was a better place to answer these questions, but part of the reason I don't have answers is because we've just refused to look at this for so long, right?

00:46:49.000 There's just never been data collection so far as, you know, I know.

00:46:52.000 And so, you know, these would be questions we could answer if we had started looking at this 20 years ago, perhaps, that we could be answering now.

00:47:01.000 But, you know, we have to collect a lot of data.

00:47:03.000 And, you know, it's interesting because we have really two ways of doing that, right?

00:47:09.000 There's leveraging the world's best sensors and things of that nature through the U.S. government.

00:47:13.000 And, of course, all that is always going to be classified, and it's always going to be difficult.

00:47:18.000 And then, on the other hand, there's really discovery, right?

00:47:21.000 I mean, we don't have to just wait for the government to tell us, you know, what's right and what's wrong and what's real on this topic, right?

00:47:29.000 We are at an age now where technology and democratization of tools, essentially, and access to space, you know, is moving it so, you know, we can verify and move the topic forward without being hand-fed, perhaps, from the people with the world's greatest sensors.

00:47:45.000 That makes sense.

00:47:46.000 Yeah, it does make sense.

00:47:48.000 How many different types of these objects have you heard other people discuss?

00:47:54.000 There's the circle that has the cube inside of it.

00:47:58.000 There's this gimbal thing, which you don't really necessarily know what the shape is.

00:48:02.000 But have people witnessed eyewitness accounts other than...

00:48:06.000 Commander David Fravor described something that he said looked like a Tic Tac.

00:48:10.000 I believe he said it was somewhere in the neighborhood of like 25 feet wide.

00:48:14.000 Is that something?

00:48:15.000 Sounds right.

00:48:18.000 So there's three, right?

00:48:19.000 You don't know what the gimbal, the physical shape of it is.

00:48:22.000 Then you have the circle with the cube inside of it, and then you have the Tic Tac.

00:48:28.000 Are there more?

00:48:31.000 Probably.

00:48:32.000 Have you talked to someone who's seen others?

00:48:34.000 On the East Coast, we were typically seeing what I've already described to you, all up and down.

00:48:39.000 So even up in the Patuxent River area outside of D.C., people were seeing them up there at the test pilot area.

00:48:46.000 On the West Coast, like you said, I've heard the Tic Tac description multiple times.

00:48:53.000 Once kind of the word got out, I think, about the cube a bit and people were looking and paying attention, I started to hear about those being observed in other areas, such as the West Coast and further inland, actually, around other bases.

00:49:06.000 But we still don't know necessarily if we're observing things there because they're there or because we just happen to have the sensors there, right?

00:49:13.000 It could be in more places.

00:49:14.000 We're just not necessarily looking there.

00:49:16.000 So there's a huge aspect right now to observation bias.

00:49:20.000 In 2017, it was kind of a milestone moment for UFO, just a discussion, because the New York Times printed a story.

00:49:32.000 And once it was on the front page of the New York Times, it was like, okay, this is a serious magazine, or this is a serious newspaper.

00:49:40.000 And you have a serious discussion now about this thing that had been for a long time been ridiculed.

00:49:47.000 And then the Pentagon discusses it.

00:49:50.000 You start hearing people.

00:49:52.000 Why do you think that's happening?

00:49:53.000 Like, what is it about this subject?

00:49:56.000 Like, it must have been for you in 2014 very bizarre when you have this new radar system that starts detecting these things.

00:50:03.000 Now you get this understanding of the fact that these things are there all the time.

00:50:07.000 You just haven't been able to put eyes on them, and you haven't had equipment that measured them accurately.

00:50:13.000 Now you do, and now there's this discussion of it in the New York Times.

00:50:17.000 What do you think is going on?

00:50:21.000 At the end of the day, I wish I had an answer for you.

00:50:24.000 I don't.

00:50:24.000 But from where I'm sitting, I see a lot of people that seem to be paying attention more so now, especially after that article came out, myself included, right?

00:50:34.000 I mean, I was part of it.

00:50:35.000 I was a witness to it.

00:50:36.000 But just like everyone else, I kind of just let it be part of my history until I saw that article pop on The New York Times.

00:50:47.000 You know, I don't know why we are moving the conversation forward.

00:50:50.000 I've listened to Chris Mellon talk about it.

00:50:52.000 I've listened to Lou talk about it.

00:50:54.000 And, you know, it's very simple when I talk about it because it's very simple.

00:50:59.000 It's just there are objects out there that our aviators are almost hitting.

00:51:03.000 And for me, whenever I engage this topic, it's always from that perspective of aviation safety.

00:51:10.000 So it's never really engaging on this crazy ontological wave, right?

00:51:15.000 It's me just working on a problem that I was trained for by the Navy.

00:51:20.000 I was trained to be an aviation safety officer.

00:51:21.000 So I see the signs of the safety problem brewing.

00:51:26.000 People don't want to talk about it.

00:51:28.000 It's taboo, right?

00:51:29.000 That's not how aviation safety works.

00:51:31.000 It doesn't live in silence in a cone like that.

00:51:34.000 You need to share lessons learned.

00:51:36.000 And the government gets it now.

00:51:38.000 The DOD gets it.

00:51:39.000 That's why the aircrew have a reporting mechanism now.

00:51:42.000 They can come back after their flight, after they've seen one of these objects.

00:51:45.000 And they can report it.

00:51:47.000 And, you know, I understand that reporting mechanism has an area where they can describe the shape of it.

00:51:52.000 So my hope is, you know, we can answer that question of yours once that data gets released.

00:51:57.000 I hope it will at some point.

00:51:59.000 It's classified at the moment.

00:52:00.000 Do you have any understanding of how often these things get reported?

00:52:04.000 I don't know how often they're getting reported.

00:52:06.000 My fear is that if aviators don't get feedback from the work you're doing, they're going to stop reporting.

00:52:12.000 If you just keep reporting a safety hazard every day and it's just data collection and nothing solves it, then eventually you're just going to say, what's the point?

00:52:20.000 I'm going to just do my thing.

00:52:21.000 And I've seen some declassified pilot reports.

00:52:24.000 Some of these were from the UAP Task Force report that came out last year.

00:52:30.000 And they're fascinating.

00:52:32.000 The pilots are curious.

00:52:33.000 They're seeing things they don't understand, right?

00:52:35.000 They're seeing these interesting objects, massive winds.

00:52:38.000 They're seeing formations of objects flying around, behaving in ways they don't understand.

00:52:43.000 And they're looking for more.

00:52:44.000 They're saying, hey, if you have any more questions, you know, please reach back to me on classified if you need to.

00:52:49.000 And my fear is that if they don't get that information back, that engagement with people collecting that data, it's going to taper off.

00:52:56.000 So, you know, I just wanted to make the plea that we consider that it's a two-way conversation with those aircrew.

00:53:02.000 Christopher Mellon, when I talked to him, he was saying that there's a lot more Data, a lot more evidence out there that hasn't been released.

00:53:14.000 And his understanding of it is that what you're seeing is just the tip of the iceberg and that there's high resolution photos and videos and that some of it is, you know, for lack of a better word, disturbing.

00:53:27.000 Because you're looking at something that doesn't make any sense in terms of what we understand, what's physically possible with the technology that we have access to today.

00:53:38.000 Yeah.

00:53:39.000 You know, I have some volunteers within the AIAA work that I do that, you know, have been in a position to do that, right?

00:53:45.000 Now that, again, there's been a new reporting mechanism, we're kind of moving into a new age with this.

00:53:51.000 I can't speak to all the data that may be out there for the past, you know, X years, right?

00:53:57.000 Again, it comes with a lot of assumptions and a lot of Um, unanswered questions, but from the new reports that they've started fresh with the Navy, and I applaud them for, you know, standing up and taking the lead on that, um, the reports that we see is that, you know, this has continued to be a problem that is occurring.

00:54:15.000 The number of objects, you know, they seem to be increasing, uh, it seems to be happening everywhere we're looking, you know, so Navy bases on the West Coast, uh, in other places in the U.S. and on the East Coast are seeing them, um, Yeah,

00:54:31.000 I'll just stop there for a minute.

00:54:33.000 Sorry.

00:54:34.000 I do occasionally.

00:54:35.000 It's such a squirrely subject, man.

00:54:38.000 And I'm really fascinated by the fact that these sightings seem to occur on a regular basis over the ocean.

00:54:46.000 And Jeremy Corbell, who has had video leaked to him.

00:54:52.000 I use the air quotes leaked because I don't know exactly how this is happening or why it's happening.

00:54:57.000 I assume they're focusing on him because he's capable of releasing it in a very high profile way.

00:55:04.000 If he releases it, people are going to pay attention.

00:55:07.000 But one of the videos is of a transmedium device, something that is apparently someone in the military filmed this, that it was flying above the ocean and then went into the ocean.

00:55:21.000 When you're seeing all these things, they appear around the ocean.

00:55:28.000 Why do you think that is?

00:55:29.000 Do you have any speculation?

00:55:34.000 Well, you know, we're pretty blind down there at the end of the day, right?

00:55:39.000 You know, we don't have as good an SA, I'll say, or as much presence in the ocean as we do in the air, I would say.

00:55:48.000 Yeah, we do have, you know, a lot of sensors and we can likely see certain things, but radiation, electromagnetic radiation doesn't propagate very well through water like that.

00:56:00.000 So in a way, it's kind of...

00:56:01.000 It'd be a good place to hide, I would suggest.

00:56:04.000 You know, there's talks of hydrogen being a useful fuel source, you know, and of course, plenty of hydrogen in the water.

00:56:11.000 But this is all just pure speculation.

00:56:12.000 I really don't know at the end of the day.

00:56:14.000 But when we, you know, the video that you mentioned with that kind of trans-medium behavior went, you know, directly into the object like that.

00:56:24.000 I'll just say that, you know, that is...

00:56:28.000 That is very unique to see objects like that.

00:56:30.000 You know, people argue about the shape or anything like that.

00:56:32.000 But even if, you know, these objects are coming from, call it a near-peer threat, right?

00:56:40.000 And they're still able to do these types of behaviors.

00:56:43.000 At the end of the day, it really comes down to technological surprise, right?

00:56:47.000 Whether that's an adversary on Earth or whether that's, you know, something else.

00:56:51.000 It's the same process of understanding what the capabilities are so that, you know, Come 2024, 2025, you know, we don't have, you know, a surprise that we can't counter, whether that's, you know, hypersonic objects flying around that happen to be UAP or whether they happen to be missiles,

00:57:08.000 right?

00:57:08.000 It's essentially the same problem.

00:57:10.000 The problem is, yeah, we don't know if that's coming from an adversary or whether it's coming from an alien.

00:57:15.000 And so we don't know how to react, whether this thing is observing us or whether this thing is an actual physical threat.

00:57:25.000 I've used the word threat before.

00:57:27.000 And for me as a pilot, when an aircraft is flying around out there and they're not talking to me, right?

00:57:33.000 Like say they came into my area and I'm the only one out there and there's an interloper.

00:57:38.000 That aircraft's a threat to me.

00:57:41.000 It doesn't mean he has hostile intent necessarily, but my aircraft could be lost if I have a midair.

00:57:46.000 If I start doing some tactics and I forget he's there, and now I'm, you know, zorting through his altitude.

00:57:51.000 So he's a threat, very simply.

00:57:53.000 It doesn't mean it's a bad guy or he's got, you know, explosives on his plane.

00:57:56.000 But it's the same way when I talk about these being a threat for aviators out there.

00:58:01.000 It is a safety hazard.

00:58:03.000 Someone could die.

00:58:03.000 We could lose aircraft.

00:58:04.000 I don't think that these objects are displaying hostile intent out there.

00:58:09.000 But even just observation and collection of our, you know, electronic warfare, our communications, our radar frequency, all that information, if it was an earthly threat, you know, that would be very useful information that they could look to back engineer.

00:58:25.000 Has there ever been any sort of design or discussion of some sort of a craft that can operate in a transmedium way, that can fly through the air and then go into the ocean?

00:58:39.000 Nothing that I've seen that's been created, really.

00:58:42.000 How would a propulsion system work that would go from the air into the ocean, based on what we understand about the abilities that we have today?

00:58:53.000 Sure.

00:58:55.000 You know, on the surface, like to go from air to water isn't necessarily a complete challenge, right?

00:59:02.000 Like you can imagine something that can get dropped in the ocean and perhaps move around or some type of mini submarine that comes up and then launches a UAV, right?

00:59:11.000 And flies away.

00:59:12.000 Just to be clear to people listening, that's not necessarily what we're talking about.

00:59:16.000 We're talking about an object that is moving at a relatively quick pace and enters the water as if it wasn't there.

00:59:23.000 Is that what you understand?

00:59:25.000 The way I understand it is it just...

00:59:28.000 It just went right into the water.

00:59:29.000 And so, you know, that's incredibly interesting for a number of reasons.

00:59:33.000 You know, propulsion in the air versus propulsion in the water is, you know, typically pretty different.

00:59:39.000 And once you start talking about high speeds underwater, that kind of goes out the door.

00:59:43.000 You know, high speeds underwater, 200 miles an hour or higher is not like 200 miles in the air.

00:59:50.000 And so when I think of something that can operate in both, the first thing I think of is that, you know, neither are concerned because of its operating system, whether that's air friction or whether that's, you know, the water drag that it would be exposed to.

01:00:03.000 That's like the first kind of like out there thought as far as how this could operate.

01:00:06.000 It would somehow be affecting, you know, the air or the water, right, the liquid around it to move it around the aircraft or to You know, negate the effect of all that force, right?

01:00:17.000 Because moving underwater is just so much pressure, so much friction that it's just so hard to go fast.

01:00:24.000 Did you watch that Jeremy Corbell documentary, Bob Lazar, Area 51 and Flying Saucers?

01:00:30.000 I did.

01:00:31.000 I did.

01:00:32.000 What did you think of that?

01:00:34.000 It was interesting.

01:00:35.000 You know, I got a cool story for you here.

01:00:38.000 When I was a kid, I was an avid explorer of the internet.

01:00:42.000 And I had stumbled upon what I thought at the time was the coolest possible website ever.

01:00:46.000 This guy selling all sorts of radioactive rocks and cool scientific equipment.

01:00:51.000 And I was like, this is the coolest website.

01:00:53.000 This is why the internet was built.

01:00:55.000 And, you know, fast forward, you know, many years later, I learned that, you know, that was Bob's website.

01:01:01.000 Oh, United Nuclear.

01:01:02.000 Yeah.

01:01:03.000 Oh, wow.

01:01:03.000 I heard it, it might have been in that movie, actually, or the documentary, and yeah, I was like, holy smokes, that's that guy.

01:01:10.000 But, you know, the story's fascinating.

01:01:14.000 Here's my only, you know, I don't want to say I believe or disbelieve, because this is such a controversial area when people start, like, drawing these, you know, conclusions.

01:01:24.000 So, I want to be able to establish...

01:01:28.000 The ability to do real science on this topic.

01:01:31.000 I want to be able to get a material or to get a bit of information and have a real peer review process that is going to look at that information objectively without the stigma that UAP have had.

01:01:46.000 Even Bob's story, right, comes with, you know, people either, you know, hate it or love it.

01:01:50.000 It's very controversial.

01:01:51.000 But at the end of the day, you know, data is data.

01:01:54.000 And if we can, you know, perhaps get element 115 or some other thing that could be used to do an analyst and we can write papers, we'll have a process to take that forward and be able to say, hey, you know, here's now a flag in the sand that we can kind of move science forward on,

01:02:09.000 on this, you know, unique topic.

01:02:11.000 And the people that haven't seen the documentary, what Ryan's referring to with Element 115 is something that Bob talked about in the late 80s.

01:02:21.000 And what he describes is a reactor that uses this element called 115 that was theoretical in the late 80s, but then proven in somewhere in the 2000s.

01:02:34.000 Was it 2008?

01:02:38.000 Was it like 2009 or something like that?

01:02:41.000 It was proven through a particle collider where they were able to detect it when they have these particles and they can detect them for a very short period of time.

01:02:54.000 But they know now that it's not just theoretical.

01:02:57.000 This element 115 is an actual element.

01:03:00.000 In the first discussions that Bob Lazar had about this, he claimed that there was a stable supply, a stable version of Element 115, and that this Element 115 was used to make some sort of a gravity field,

01:03:17.000 and that was the method of propulsion that these crafts were using.

01:03:22.000 And that they exhibited a method of flight that is very similar to the gimbal.

01:03:32.000 The way he described it, and this is again in the late 80s, that this thing would be traveling and then it would turn and rotate vertically and that it would then travel and that would be somehow or another this element 115 with this reactor would create this Some sort of a field that allows it to bend gravity and bend space and time around it.

01:03:59.000 And the way you described it is if the way it uses a propulsion system, you say if you had an incredibly heavy bowling ball and you put it in the middle of a mattress and it sort of pushes the mattress down, like that's what this thing is doing to space.

01:04:13.000 Yeah, instead of like firing flames out the back, it's doing something with this element that's allowing it to travel in an incredibly fast way.

01:04:24.000 And when you listen to Commander David Fravor's depiction of that Tic Tac object, one of the things that's incredible is that They detected this object at more than 50,000 feet above sea level,

01:04:39.000 and then it went from above 50,000 feet to 50 feet in less than a second, which is just bonkers.

01:04:47.000 Like, who the fuck knows what could do that with no visual propulsion system, no visible, no understanding of, like, how this thing is moving around.

01:04:57.000 But the fact that Bob Lazar was describing that actual method of propulsion back in the late 80s It's trippy.

01:05:06.000 I just, I wish.

01:05:07.000 I wish.

01:05:08.000 If he's a liar, he's one of the best liars of all time.

01:05:11.000 And what a great con he's been running.

01:05:13.000 Because he's been telling the exact same story the exact same way for more than 30 years.

01:05:19.000 It's really crazy.

01:05:21.000 And you don't know what to think.

01:05:22.000 I mean, I talked to the guy.

01:05:24.000 I had dinner with him.

01:05:25.000 And then I talked to him on the podcast.

01:05:27.000 And, you know, I like to think I have a fairly decent bullshit detector.

01:05:31.000 But I don't know.

01:05:33.000 I don't know.

01:05:34.000 I mean, he's obviously a brilliant guy, a legitimate scientist, incredibly intelligent.

01:05:39.000 He would have been called out, and he kind of has about his education record, but he explained that to me, and I'll explain it to you afterwards, like what he told me that he doesn't want discussed publicly.

01:05:51.000 But it's...

01:05:53.000 It's so strange that the way this guy was talking about these objects back in the late 80s is exactly how we're observing them behave today.

01:06:06.000 And that he was saying that the United States government had these things in their possession and they were attempting to back-engineer them.

01:06:13.000 And they hired him, a propulsions expert, to try to figure them out.

01:06:18.000 So that's element 115. So when you are watching this documentary and him explaining this and talking about Area S4, which is where he was supposedly working on these things,

01:06:35.000 what's your sense of that?

01:06:38.000 I try to stay agnostic in a sense because I think probably like most people, I want to believe it.

01:06:45.000 Yeah, that's the problem.

01:06:46.000 It's super interesting.

01:06:48.000 Oh, yeah.

01:06:48.000 A very deep part of me just was like, man, I want all that to be true.

01:06:53.000 It's super cool.

01:06:54.000 Yes.

01:06:55.000 And so in a sense, that's what kind of pushes me away from it, you know, because I don't have any tools to prevent that from taking over, right?

01:07:04.000 Like I don't have any data or anything other than just That.

01:07:08.000 But that's okay.

01:07:11.000 That's what we've dealt with, I think, in the past.

01:07:13.000 But, you know, I think and I believe and I hope that as we move forward, we're going to be dealing with this in a new way, right?

01:07:19.000 It's going to be about planting flags and moving the conversation forward with data and science.

01:07:26.000 And there's some, you know, another reason, again, this could be happening now is that there's just better tools, right?

01:07:32.000 Our technology is getting better.

01:07:35.000 We, in a sense, have, you know, another non-human intelligence on Earth with us right now, right?

01:07:39.000 With our, you know, our advancement of machine learning and artificial intelligence, you know, those tools might give us information, insight into these behaviors in a way that we wouldn't obviously put together, right?

01:07:51.000 That's what ML does best.

01:07:53.000 And so I see great promise for us having a better understanding of some of these mysteries, kind of when we bring in that tool to show us things that we just, you know...

01:08:03.000 Our brains aren't well suited to find those patterns.

01:08:07.000 So part of the problem with all this stuff is the fact that it's not openly discussed.

01:08:13.000 Yeah.

01:08:14.000 And I know that you were brought in for a hearing.

01:08:19.000 Was this in front of Congress?

01:08:21.000 Is that what it was?

01:08:22.000 So, you know, way back when, when this kind of got kicked off, I had a private meeting with members of the Senate Armed Services Committee and the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence.

01:08:31.000 And what was that like?

01:08:33.000 Pretty nerve-wracking.

01:08:34.000 I mean, I was, you know...

01:08:35.000 Yeah, so, you know, it was funny.

01:08:38.000 I volunteered to do this in a sense, and I was like, listen, I realize that, you know, I'm active duty right now.

01:08:44.000 This is definitely not like, you know, I can't represent the Navy here or the military, right?

01:08:50.000 I have to just try to speak as a citizen the best I can.

01:08:52.000 So I was like, I'm not going to wear my uniform.

01:08:54.000 I'm just going to go as, you know, as Ryan, not Lieutenant Graves, hopefully.

01:09:00.000 And I ended up getting a call at like 9.30, 10 at night, the night before I was about to leave, essentially saying, get your uniform ready, because you're now on orders to go up there to have that conversation, and you'll be in uniform.

01:09:16.000 And this was like months before I'm getting out of the Navy.

01:09:20.000 My shit's all packed up.

01:09:22.000 I'm calling friends.

01:09:24.000 And some of the stuff I shipped back home already.

01:09:26.000 Back up to New England.

01:09:28.000 I'm in Mississippi at this time.

01:09:29.000 I'm calling my squadron mates at 10, 11 at night trying to get uniform pieces to pass together.

01:09:36.000 I'm like, oh shit.

01:09:37.000 Here's the worst part, right?

01:09:38.000 So I'm in there.

01:09:39.000 There's some very serious people in there.

01:09:42.000 One of them is a former admiral, and now he's a staffer, essentially.

01:09:47.000 And all the questions, and we're having the whole conversation.

01:09:50.000 Near the end, he's like, so I noticed that you're missing a ribbon or uniform.

01:09:56.000 Because I had to have that rack right here.

01:09:58.000 And there's one you get like every time you kind of leave a squadron.

01:10:01.000 They're no, you know, no big deal.

01:10:03.000 But I didn't have it.

01:10:04.000 It's just like the stores were closed.

01:10:05.000 I couldn't get it in time.

01:10:06.000 He's like, did you leave your squadron?

01:10:08.000 Did you leave your squadron on a bad note?

01:10:10.000 You know, because I didn't have that metal.

01:10:11.000 Oh, no.

01:10:12.000 Oh, shit.

01:10:12.000 No.

01:10:12.000 But he was pretty cool about it.

01:10:14.000 But yeah, that was probably the most stressful part.

01:10:16.000 You have to explain the whole thing that you didn't know you were coming in uniform?

01:10:17.000 Yeah, pretty much.

01:10:18.000 I just told the story.

01:10:19.000 I just told you.

01:10:19.000 They loved it.

01:10:22.000 Well, I'm sure they probably thought it was funny that you were so nervous about it, too.

01:10:27.000 Yeah, I mean, you know, I'm at a table, not unlike this one, but much bigger.

01:10:31.000 And I'm, you know, at the head of the table here, and on your side is, like, all the DOD folk and, like, executive branch representation.

01:10:37.000 And on the other side is all the SAS and intelligence folks.

01:10:42.000 And I got essentially walked over by a handful of admirals that were in various roles from that point.

01:10:51.000 This was an unexpected part of my trip.

01:10:53.000 I was supposed to just go talk to them, but part of me coming in uniform was that I needed to have a conversation at the Pentagon right prior to that.

01:11:01.000 To what to discuss and what not to?

01:11:02.000 No.

01:11:04.000 At the time, it was just kind of like to get a pre-brief, essentially, is how they described it.

01:11:08.000 And that's all it was.

01:11:09.000 It was nothing nefarious.

01:11:10.000 They really just wanted to hear it from the horse's mouth before they escorted me across the hill.

01:11:15.000 And what were the questions?

01:11:17.000 What was the nature of the discussion?

01:11:22.000 When you sat down in front of everyone at the big table.

01:11:25.000 Essentially, what's the story?

01:11:27.000 What are you seeing?

01:11:29.000 Not unlike a lot of the things I told you about here.

01:11:32.000 Did people ridicule you?

01:11:33.000 Did people tell you not to talk about it?

01:11:37.000 There was a concern, it seemed like, from the non-DOD folks that they were wondering if there was any influence on me to either downplay or not talk about it.

01:11:49.000 And there was none, you know, to be clear.

01:11:51.000 But that was, you know, they questioned me on that.

01:11:53.000 But at the end of the day, it was essentially, you know, they seem earnestly, you know, interested in getting to the bottom of what we were seeing out there.

01:12:00.000 There seemed like a lot of...

01:12:02.000 They seemed to ask a lot of good questions that couldn't be answered at that space, in that classification level.

01:12:08.000 So, you know, they were having a follow-up conversation after I left.

01:12:12.000 But that was really the kickoff of, you know, me speaking about this...

01:12:20.000 In an official fashion, right?

01:12:21.000 To like actual decision makers, things of that nature versus media essentially.

01:12:25.000 Is there discussion about media?

01:12:28.000 Was there a discussion about how you were allowed to talk about this or how much of this is classified?

01:12:35.000 So, you know, the whole boat situation, right, with Gimbal, people are like, all right, we're done talking about this.

01:12:40.000 But, you know, that's not how classification works, right?

01:12:43.000 There's NEAs and paperwork.

01:12:44.000 So, you know, the short answer is no.

01:12:46.000 Like, this was never information that was classified.

01:12:48.000 Like, I never, you know...

01:12:50.000 I wouldn't have spoke about it if it was unclassified, and yet I thought it was inappropriately unclassified and could cause, you know, national damage or anything like that, right?

01:12:58.000 I understood it was like a new thing, but I was, at least in my mind, doing what I thought was best, but it was not classified information.

01:13:07.000 It was not information at the time, right?

01:13:11.000 It just wasn't a thing.

01:13:13.000 Now there's a program.

01:13:14.000 Now there's a reporting program.

01:13:15.000 The UAP Task Force, you know, collects reports.

01:13:17.000 Now it's a classified reporting program.

01:13:19.000 So I don't expect people that, you know, to be quote unquote leaking or talking about it publicly anymore due to it being a real operation now, which is a good thing.

01:13:28.000 Have you had any conversations with anyone at a high level that gives you an understanding of what they think these things are?

01:13:37.000 Yes.

01:13:41.000 Not to the specificity I think that you would like or anyone would like, but there are efforts standing up within DOD, with the error office, with some of the Intelligence Authorization Act language from last year and also this year.

01:13:55.000 The language and the efforts that are being established to look into this are doing so under the context that there is a large category of other, right, that we just simply don't understand.

01:14:06.000 It's, you know, we're not, the systems are being designed and built and organizations aren't there to better understand, you know, the Chinese threat that might be off our shores, right?

01:14:16.000 Like, if that's identified, then it gets routed to the proper place and then they'll go back to doing their job on the mysterious stuff that's still out there, right?

01:14:24.000 You know, that's how the efforts are being organized right now.

01:14:27.000 And now what the output of that investigation is going to be, whether it's, you know, aliens or any of the other million hypotheses, is unknown at this point.

01:14:34.000 But it is mysterious.

01:14:36.000 It's not the prosaic that they're establishing these channels for.

01:14:41.000 So it really is an unknown, even at the highest levels.

01:14:46.000 Yeah.

01:14:48.000 Other than what Commander Fravor described and what the equipment detected in terms of speed, the movement of that thing.

01:14:56.000 And then another disturbing thing was that the object, when it took off at extraordinary rates of speed after they had detected it, it went to their cat point, which is very interesting.

01:15:07.000 Because they had a predetermined place where they were supposed to meet up and this thing went there.

01:15:12.000 Like, it could read their plans.

01:15:17.000 I don't have an answer for that.

01:15:19.000 It's mysterious, right?

01:15:22.000 Those points aren't super classified, but there's no logical reason for an object like that to know where they're going in the future.

01:15:32.000 Is there any other instances of something exhibiting that kind of speed that you're aware of?

01:15:41.000 I hear lots of stories about that from other aviators.

01:15:43.000 I haven't personally witnessed the gunshot acceleration that you hear about.

01:15:48.000 What have you heard from other aviators?

01:15:51.000 You know, one of them was up by the Pax River, the test pilot area I mentioned.

01:15:56.000 A friend of mine that was on the east coast with me who deployed and was used to seeing these objects was then in test pilot school and then stayed there as a test pilot, was out doing a mission, you know, off the eastern seaboard.

01:16:10.000 And he had an object come up about 20 feet from his cockpit, looks similar to what's been described off these coasts, was there for four to five, six seconds.

01:16:19.000 He's cruising at, you know, 350 knots, you know, somewhere in the teens, the thousands, you know, 15, 16, 17,000 feet.

01:16:26.000 An object just stays there for, you know, a handful of seconds and then just like darts off, like into the great beyond, you know, very quickly.

01:16:35.000 And he's being monitored by a whole testing apparatus, right?

01:16:38.000 Like a mini NASA with all the screens and the test engineers because he's doing a real flight test.

01:16:43.000 And they knocked it off.

01:16:44.000 You know, the ATC, the air traffic control, didn't have any knowledge of that air traffic.

01:16:49.000 And, you know, the test people didn't see it either.

01:16:52.000 But he ended up reporting that through the UAP Task Force report.

01:16:56.000 He did end up getting debriefed and was likely one of the 144 reports.

01:17:01.000 So I tell that to show that, you know, at least at the time it was working, right?

01:17:04.000 Like there was a real process.

01:17:06.000 We know that now because we've seen the evidence of it in the reports.

01:17:09.000 But, you know, there's other cases of pilots where they just, you know, they see something in the distance and it's there.

01:17:15.000 It's moving around in ways they can't explain.

01:17:16.000 And as they get closer, just, you know, shooting off like a cannon.

01:17:20.000 When I was telling you earlier about the UAP off the eastern coast, that's kind of like the new generation.

01:17:26.000 But all the, you know, the Asian aviators and the Navy, you know, they all had their own stories, you know, whether it was...

01:17:32.000 All of them.

01:17:32.000 I mean, not 100%, but, you know, at least the ones that, you know, there were plenty that were willing to talk about.

01:17:37.000 I'll say about that, you know, I can't say how many weren't, but...

01:17:41.000 So this is not a rare occurrence.

01:17:43.000 It happened for a long time, yeah.

01:17:44.000 And this one that you were just describing, where it was very close to the cockpit and then took off, was it the same thing, the translucent circle with the square inside of it?

01:17:54.000 Yeah.

01:17:55.000 What's the earliest known sightings of that particular type of object?

01:18:01.000 So far as I know, it's that late 2013, early 2014, back when we saw it with the radar upgrade.

01:18:07.000 Have you seen anything visually?

01:18:09.000 I haven't been able to see it.

01:18:11.000 So we would fly up to it.

01:18:12.000 People in our squadron would, like, once, of course, we knew there was something there, we'd try to fly up to it, right, and see it.

01:18:18.000 And, you know, our safety limit is 500 feet, which is very close for us.

01:18:23.000 And we train all the time to come to what is called a merge, where we fly right by another aircraft, really close, 500 feet is our safety bubble, and then we execute a fight, you know.

01:18:33.000 And we're trained to look at their wings, right?

01:18:35.000 And see if they're, you know, they have condensation clouding in the air above their wings to tell if they're pulling a lot of G, right?

01:18:42.000 Or if their flaps are auto-scheduling down, right?

01:18:45.000 To say they're low energy.

01:18:46.000 And so even though we're going by at 1200 essentially miles per hour relative velocity, and it's really only a frame or two of information, we can make a pretty decent assessment of that, you know, other fighter and what they're going to do and their weapon loadouts and everything,

01:19:02.000 right?

01:19:02.000 So we have these tools to tell us where to look.

01:19:05.000 So we're not just out there kind of gazing around.

01:19:07.000 All our sensors are pumped into our visor.

01:19:09.000 And so as we look around, it shows us the object we have selected in a box, where to look, right on our visor, no matter where we look.

01:19:16.000 So as we come to this merge, we have every, you know, expectation of having a successful merge and seeing this object, right?

01:19:21.000 And then, you know, it wasn't there.

01:19:25.000 We still see it on the FLIR, right?

01:19:27.000 We still see the energy emitting from that area, but nothing visually.

01:19:33.000 Wow.

01:19:34.000 So do you think that some of these things are not visually available?

01:19:41.000 We just don't have enough data, right?

01:19:43.000 Like, are they moving a little bit out of the way?

01:19:44.000 It's tough because, again, we can only go so slow.

01:19:47.000 Even if we're, like, all the way back at, like, maybe 130 knots, right?

01:19:50.000 Still 150 miles an hour.

01:19:52.000 If that thing, like, was right in front of us and dropped down, I mean, I'd like to think that we'd still see it, but it's just, you know, it's just not the right tool to be doing that type of analysis, you know?

01:20:02.000 I mean, we just couldn't see it.

01:20:04.000 So does it mean that somehow they were receiving us or does it mean that not all of them were physical objects?

01:20:08.000 We just don't have enough data to say that.

01:20:11.000 Well, I mean, obviously this is speculation, but if you guys are using this equipment out there overseas, are you flying or there are many people that are flying these types of aircrafts using this type of equipment over the continental United States?

01:20:31.000 In the jets, you mean?

01:20:33.000 Yes.

01:20:33.000 Do they detect them there?

01:20:36.000 Initially, we weren't reporting them over the continental United States.

01:20:39.000 However, I have heard that essentially anywhere in F-18 that has these radar capabilities seems to be testing them.

01:20:47.000 So we have them further inland and places like that.

01:20:49.000 And so far as I know, they've been experiencing them as well, inland.

01:20:53.000 Jesus.

01:20:54.000 So is it possible that these things have some sort of a cloaking mechanism or they're not visually available to our, like we can't see them because of the way their propulsion system works or whatever?

01:21:07.000 Yeah, I think there's a lot of different ways, you know, that you could be visually deceitful, right?

01:21:14.000 Like you can, it doesn't have to be like a visibility cloak per se, right?

01:21:17.000 But like, I can think of, like, a lot of, like, tricky mechanisms that may make it very difficult to see something coming to emerge, right?

01:21:23.000 Even if it's just, like, you know, something that can change polarity with electrical charge and, like, you know, it makes it a lighter or darker object or something, right?

01:21:32.000 Like those windows.

01:21:34.000 You know, it's a physical object until you change polarity and now you can see through the, you know, the object in a sense.

01:21:39.000 Right.

01:21:40.000 So there's trickery there, you know, that could be done.

01:21:43.000 And all the way from kind of basic trickery to advanced, you know, invisibility science and physics with negative diffraction and things of that nature.

01:21:51.000 But we just don't know.

01:21:53.000 We just don't know.

01:21:55.000 How much has this changed the way you view our place on Earth in the universe?

01:22:03.000 You know, it certainly opened me up to all the assumptions that I think I had baked in from birth in a sense and as I grew up that were kind of either...

01:22:13.000 I think?

01:22:29.000 But this really kind of made me realize that our place in the universe and in the cosmos and even here on Earth just might not be as apparent as we think it is.

01:22:43.000 That doesn't sound very exciting, but we come in a place of confidence.

01:22:46.000 We have this perception that we're the masters of the universe.

01:22:50.000 We haven't seen anything else out there.

01:22:52.000 We imagine that there's other stuff, but we have no evidence of it.

01:22:55.000 In a sense, you know, we are the best thing that has ever been in the universe.

01:22:59.000 So to think that there's a lot of other stuff out there.

01:23:04.000 For me personally, it's really, I'd say, allowed me to better explore that kind of non-traditional mainstream, you know, thoughts in a sense, right?

01:23:18.000 You know, UAP wasn't something I grew up thinking about, but after I kind of got over the skepticism and looked at it and, you know, just realized how much information was there, It made me wonder what else, you know, I haven't been paying attention to or what other small assumptions,

01:23:34.000 even if it's not something as exotic as UAP, but what other scientific assumptions have we made or, you know, economic or sociological scientific assumptions that we've made that just kind of pushed us in the wrong direction, but it's right enough that hasn't caused too much of a problem yet.

01:23:52.000 Have you entertained the possibility that there are things that are native to Earth, that are highly intelligent, that we're not aware of?

01:24:01.000 Yeah, you know, I've gone down that rabbit hole a little bit, and I'm not shy of going down these rabbit holes and exploring them, you know?

01:24:07.000 So, like, I have the ultra-terrestrial type theory, and you probably know more than I do, but I've heard those theories.

01:24:17.000 Can I ask you what time frame do you think that that ultraterrestrial theory will come from?

01:24:23.000 Do you think that's like something that arose on Earth a long time ago or something that's more recent?

01:24:27.000 It's a great question.

01:24:28.000 Because why would it avoid detection?

01:24:30.000 Like what's the reason for it?

01:24:32.000 Like why would it always have avoided detection?

01:24:35.000 There's not like a historical record of these things like coming out of the ocean and flying around from a thousand years ago that we're aware of.

01:24:44.000 I don't know.

01:24:45.000 How would it evolve?

01:24:47.000 What is it doing?

01:24:49.000 How come we're not detecting them with submarines?

01:24:52.000 How come we're not detecting them when we fly over the ocean on a regular basis?

01:24:57.000 If this thing is avoiding detection, why is it doing that?

01:25:02.000 Is it observing us?

01:25:05.000 You want to go really far out?

01:25:07.000 Is this what made us?

01:25:10.000 You know, like, what are we?

01:25:11.000 We are so different from every other life form on Earth in the fact that we wear clothes, in the fact that we can communicate, in the fact that we are obsessed with technological innovation.

01:25:24.000 It seems to be the number one thing that human beings...

01:25:27.000 I don't know.

01:25:38.000 I don't know.

01:25:49.000 They're incentivized by technological innovation.

01:25:53.000 If you just looked at us, if you just abandoned the idea of culture and context and what are these weird talking monkeys doing?

01:26:02.000 Well, they're making better stuff constantly.

01:26:04.000 Well, why are they doing that?

01:26:06.000 It seems like that is what they're obsessed with, just like a bee is making a beehive.

01:26:11.000 Do they know why they're doing it?

01:26:13.000 Do they know why, collectively, they group up in these cities with millions and millions of people?

01:26:19.000 And if you watch the cars come in and out at night, it's much like blood in an artery.

01:26:25.000 You're watching things moving back and forth and back and forth and they're creating objects, better and better objects, and they don't seem to be collectively aware of what they're doing.

01:26:37.000 And they distract themselves with these cultural issues and all these – you have two completely different polarizing political parties that are constantly at odds and fighting against each other and all the while They're creating artificial intelligence and all the while they're creating some sort of a symbiotic relationship with intelligent computing and with artificial intelligence and with technology that seems to be going in

01:27:07.000 a way where they're going to integrate with it.

01:27:10.000 They're going to physically integrate with these electronic devices and with technology and with the internet.

01:27:16.000 Like, why?

01:27:17.000 Why is it doing that?

01:27:18.000 Why is it not aware of that?

01:27:19.000 That should be like the number one thing, other than climate change and Super volcanoes and giant threats to civilization.

01:27:29.000 They should be really concerned with the direction the shit is going.

01:27:32.000 But they seem to be blissfully unaware, foot on the gas, all gas, no brakes, moving in that general direction.

01:27:41.000 What if that's what we do?

01:27:44.000 What if that's what this species does?

01:27:47.000 What if this species creates technology and is essentially on its way to giving birth to a new life form?

01:27:53.000 And that new life form is a life form that's created completely out of technology that's uninhibited, unhindered Disconnected from emotion, from instincts, from all of these instincts that we have just developed over thousands of years of survival.

01:28:17.000 All these human and animal instincts, ego, emotion, fear, lust, Sexual desires, desire to accumulate wealth and power, all these things that have to do with primate biology and animal biology and mating.

01:28:37.000 What if That's the future.

01:28:40.000 What if the future is that is going to be the past and the new life forms are going to be completely unhindered by all of these problems that we have?

01:28:51.000 If you think about like war, war and disease and all of these things that we have done like in terms of like environmental hazards and all of these problems that we've created for ourselves, why we've Pushed all gas,

01:29:08.000 no brakes, towards this industrial revolution and this technological revolution and all the haphazard things that we've done.

01:29:16.000 What if all that shit is just a byproduct of this inevitable merging of the biological life into the whatever technological life that we're creating and what if those things are monitoring it?

01:29:36.000 Or encouraging it.

01:29:38.000 Or created it in the first place.

01:29:39.000 I mean we have no idea what happened to the human species.

01:29:43.000 Like we have no idea how the human brain doubled over a period of two million years.

01:29:48.000 It's the biggest mystery in the history of the fossil record.

01:29:50.000 They don't know.

01:29:51.000 They don't know what the fuck happened.

01:29:52.000 We're so different.

01:29:54.000 Than every other animal that's on this planet.

01:29:56.000 Well, what if that's by design?

01:29:57.000 What if there's some sort of an accelerated evolution where something has come in and just manipulated the lower primates and created us?

01:30:11.000 So to your point earlier, you know, even just to kind of reinforce what you said, you know, our technology has moved ahead so fast and we disregard, in a sense, everything, right?

01:30:20.000 Our climate.

01:30:21.000 But, you know, we've seen it, right?

01:30:23.000 Our culture can't even keep up with the technological progression, right?

01:30:28.000 So our culture, you know, breaks down and fractures and is damaged.

01:30:32.000 As a result of the new introduced technology, and then ideally, our society will adapt to it and move forward and grow with it.

01:30:41.000 I think in an ideal world, that would probably be switched around, right?

01:30:44.000 Our culture would define what we need and what we define as important, and then we would build tools that would help enable those things that we think are important.

01:30:54.000 Yeah.

01:30:54.000 I would even say that perhaps it's even a bit further down.

01:30:58.000 I mean, when you think about an artificial intelligence, which really at the end of the day is electromagnetic energy in a sense.

01:31:05.000 So if we were to truly merge with an AI outside of being, you know, rid of all our things that ail us in our physical bodies, you know, really it might be a move away from just generally space-time itself, which, you know, we're learning is less fundamental than we already thought.

01:31:21.000 If there is a coherent, you know, artificial intelligence contained with a pocket of electromagnetic energy or some type of organization of electromagnetic energy, much like our brain outside of a skin suit, then we're going to lose the limitations that,

01:31:36.000 you know, space-time and, you know, us operating within space-time bring to us.

01:31:42.000 And if that evolves even further, if that sort of ability continues to accelerate and goes in, you know, a thousand-year period or a hundred thousand-year period, we conceivably would have the power of gods.

01:32:01.000 We conceivably would have the power to control all the processes that we observe in the known universe.

01:32:08.000 Black holes, like the birth and death of stars, like all that stuff, if you think of what we can do now based on what amoebas can do, And you take that a million years in the future,

01:32:24.000 and as long as we don't blow ourselves up, as long as we don't get hit by an asteroid, you keep going, and you have more and more control over the physical nature of the universe and of technology and power, and we can harness dark energy,

01:32:41.000 and who the fuck knows?

01:32:43.000 What the future is and maybe what we're seeing is creatures or some things that have already made these leaps or some version of these leaps.

01:32:55.000 Maybe they're the British explorers that land on the coast and check out the natives.

01:33:03.000 Maybe that's where they are and maybe they're primitive.

01:33:07.000 In terms of like what their capabilities are in like comparison to what's possible with a million more years of evolution.

01:33:17.000 I mean it's not going to stop.

01:33:20.000 That's what's fascinating to me is that this is not going to...

01:33:24.000 Our technological innovation and our lust for constant improvement of our ability to change the world, it's not going to stop.

01:33:32.000 It's going to keep moving.

01:33:33.000 So where does it go?

01:33:36.000 I think it's Professor Hansen, who's an economist, you know, he looked at that and what he calls that is a greedy society where, you know, we just want to keep taking and keep building and keep growing.

01:33:47.000 And one of the great mysteries, of course, is why don't we see, you know, alien life out there?

01:33:52.000 Because, you know, we're greedy, we expand, and we assume that anything else out there would also, you know, want to expand to gain more resources or to explore, right?

01:34:02.000 Like, we like to go to different places to explore, which, you know, Is that a pure economic driven thing or is it something about our, you know, our human nature that we like to discover new things?

01:34:15.000 And, you know, his big thought is, you know, we don't see anything out there.

01:34:19.000 And because we don't, and if we assume that we don't see anything out there and we assume that essentially UAP do represent, you know, other life forms, then the assumption is that they found a way to make themselves not greedy.

01:34:34.000 Right.

01:34:34.000 So they stop themselves from expanding, in a sense.

01:34:37.000 Yeah.

01:34:37.000 To control that weird rogue unit from kind of just expanding in a million years or however long it takes for that, you know, that seed of an orc, you know, of a civilization that might go out in a spaceship to come back and be the greedy thing that takes up the whole universe.

01:34:51.000 Right.

01:34:52.000 Well, the way to do that is to eliminate sexual reproduction.

01:34:56.000 I mean, that would be one of the big ways.

01:34:59.000 Because one of the reasons why people are greedy, human, especially males, are greedy because they want to be the alpha.

01:35:06.000 They want to acquire the most resources so they have the pick of the litter, so they can decide what gets done.

01:35:15.000 They have the most power over the other entities, the other humans.

01:35:19.000 If that gets eliminated, if we merge with artificial intelligence or we become some sort of new version of artificial intelligence, the way I've described it in the past is like that we are the electronic caterpillar that becomes the butterfly and we don't even know what we're doing.

01:35:37.000 We're just in the middle of like making this cocoon.

01:35:39.000 Like we just got to make the cocoon.

01:35:41.000 We're busy making the cocoon.

01:35:42.000 I need an iPhone 14, making the cocoon.

01:35:44.000 I need a new Tesla, making the cocoon.

01:35:46.000 And all that innovation, it all leads to exponentially more powerful innovation, exponentially more powerful technology that's ultimately...

01:35:58.000 The end game is...

01:36:01.000 Artificial life and the ability to transcend space and time and just unimaginable technological power.

01:36:10.000 And I don't think that's possible unless we get rid of emotions, sexual desire, lust, greed, all those things, which are human things.

01:36:20.000 Those are the things that allowed us to survive when we're running away from big cats.

01:36:26.000 We're trying to stay alive from predators and that very desire to stay alive and to breed and to fight off conquering tribes That's allowed us to innovate and create technology because that's the thing that separate us from the other animals is our ability to develop tools and our ability to innovate and to think and plan out how to protect ourselves,

01:36:55.000 how to accumulate resources so that we can be safe and how to develop walls and cities and urbanization and all these different things have essentially set the stage For this innovation to become a part of us.

01:37:08.000 And the only way to separate ourselves from all of the pitfalls, all the things that hold us back, which are the emotions, the anger, the greed, all the things that we find distasteful about humans, a lot of it is tied to sexual reproduction.

01:37:26.000 A lot of it is tied to Our biological needs.

01:37:31.000 If we can get past that, that's what those fucking alien things are.

01:37:36.000 You look at them, like, if you look at the archetypal alien, they have no muscle, they're these thin things with these giant heads, they have no genitals.

01:37:45.000 Like, what if what we're seeing maybe is Maybe it's not even like physically a representation of an actual thing that we're seeing.

01:37:57.000 Maybe what we're seeing is we're recognizing the pattern, that this is where it goes, that this is where the upright human animal, the hominid, this is what it becomes.

01:38:08.000 You just keep going and it merges with technology and then it becomes that thing.

01:38:14.000 I take a little bit different view on that, you know, the anatomy side of it, but I think of it more of like maybe that's the best tool they have to interact with us at a peer level, right?

01:38:25.000 Is to build something that somewhat looks like us, but it's different enough so that it doesn't get mistaken as, you know, it's not sneaky in a sense, right?

01:38:32.000 They don't want to be sneaky.

01:38:33.000 They want to be apparent.

01:38:34.000 Maybe that's the tool they use in a sense.

01:38:37.000 Like it's not a being made of light that we don't even recognize as a life form.

01:38:40.000 Yeah, if I was waving to an ant, he's not going to know what's going on.

01:38:44.000 Right, right.

01:38:45.000 Well, that could be possible, too.

01:38:47.000 It could be that those things are drones, that those things are artificial, intelligent creatures, and that the actual intelligence that created them is disembodied in the future.

01:38:58.000 We just talked about, yeah, space-time being one of the things that drops out if we do merge with AI potentially.

01:39:06.000 Right.

01:39:06.000 And so that would make sense that if they were outside of space-time, they would need to construct something of space-time in order to interact here.

01:39:12.000 Brian.

01:39:13.000 Well, if this Bob Lazar story about element 115 is real, and they can apply this at scale, like if you have enough element 115 in a reactor that's sophisticated enough, you can travel to anywhere in the universe instantaneously.

01:39:30.000 And there's no boundaries, no physical boundaries in terms of what's possible.

01:39:35.000 I also want to believe that.

01:39:37.000 I want to believe all of it.

01:39:38.000 That's the problem.

01:39:39.000 I know.

01:39:39.000 I want to believe all of it, but I also know that there's certain elements of what we're discussing that are 100% in process of happening, like Elon Musk's Neuralink.

01:39:50.000 When I talked to Elon about it, he was saying, you're gonna be able to talk without words.

01:39:53.000 Like, what the fuck is that?

01:39:55.000 Like, where's that coming?

01:39:57.000 You know, he's not talking about next week, but he's talking about ultimately and eventually.

01:40:01.000 And I feel like that's where all this stuff is going to go.

01:40:05.000 It's not going to get less sophisticated.

01:40:08.000 You know, I was having this conversation with my kids last night.

01:40:11.000 I was saying, we're having this talk about new phones, because I have an iPhone 14. They're like, is it better?

01:40:17.000 And I'm like, no.

01:40:18.000 I mean, yes, but not in any noticeable way that I recognize every day.

01:40:23.000 Like, the camera, the 13 was great, too.

01:40:25.000 It's silly.

01:40:26.000 And I'm like, what's funny about people is that we never are happy.

01:40:30.000 If we just decided, this was the conversation we were having, I said, if we just decided right now to stop making new things, We would have a pretty great life if we decided, okay, planes are fast enough.

01:40:41.000 Let's keep fixing them.

01:40:43.000 Phones are great.

01:40:44.000 You can talk.

01:40:46.000 You can iMessage and you can use FaceTime.

01:40:50.000 You can see each other.

01:40:51.000 We don't need to fix that.

01:40:52.000 Just maintain it.

01:40:53.000 Let's just, the Tesla, jeez, it's so fast.

01:40:56.000 We don't need a new car.

01:40:57.000 Just like, fix that and just everybody just keep what we have and let's maintain life.

01:41:03.000 We're never going to do that.

01:41:04.000 It's possible.

01:41:04.000 We're never going to do it.

01:41:05.000 We would self-destruct.

01:41:07.000 Like, there's just no way we could do it.

01:41:08.000 Why?

01:41:09.000 Why though?

01:41:10.000 I don't know.

01:41:11.000 That's a great question.

01:41:12.000 Humans, beings need to reproduce.

01:41:14.000 That's a lot of it.

01:41:16.000 A lot of it is the desire to accumulate resources and power, and a lot of that is tied to these biological urges that are baked into us from the time that we really did have to survive from animals trying to eat us.

01:41:33.000 I saw a video today of this poor fucking guy who was rock climbing and a bear tried to attack him.

01:41:39.000 I was like, that used to be us all the time.

01:41:42.000 That was us on a daily...

01:41:44.000 Have you seen that, Jamie?

01:41:45.000 Fucking crazy.

01:41:46.000 Did he climb?

01:41:47.000 The guy's got like a GoPro on and he's climbing up this rock and a bear comes down at him and tries to get him.

01:41:56.000 Yes!

01:41:57.000 That's even worse.

01:41:57.000 And so he swats it to the side.

01:41:59.000 Watch this.

01:42:00.000 So this guy's climbing up...

01:42:02.000 And look at this, this bear comes right out and he pushes it and it runs back up at him and he kicks at him.

01:42:11.000 So one interesting thing about bears is grizzly bears generally when they attack people, they're attacking people because you surprise them and it's a female with cubs.

01:42:22.000 But black bears are often attacking people for food.

01:42:26.000 They're predatory in the sense that they recognize that people are weak, and they're like, oh, I'll just eat that thing.

01:42:33.000 Because they cannibalize each other on a regular basis.

01:42:37.000 So anything that they can eat, like black bears, one of my friends was up in Alberta, and he observed a male black bear attack a female and their cubs, kill one of the cubs.

01:42:51.000 The female scared the male off And then the female ate her own cub.

01:42:56.000 Oh, damn.

01:42:57.000 I didn't see that coming.

01:42:58.000 Hard World.

01:42:59.000 The dead one or the live one?

01:43:01.000 Yeah, the dead one.

01:43:01.000 Okay.

01:43:01.000 The dead one that the male had killed.

01:43:03.000 Once it was dead, she's like, well...

01:43:06.000 Might as well eat it.

01:43:07.000 Might as well eat my baby.

01:43:08.000 She just ate it right there in front of him.

01:43:10.000 And he was like, Jesus Christ.

01:43:12.000 Like, that's what a bear is.

01:43:14.000 It's not a stuffed animal that, you know, sits next to your kid at night when it goes to bed.

01:43:18.000 It's not yogi.

01:43:19.000 That's what a bear is.

01:43:20.000 It's not Winnie the Pooh, that thing, trying to eat that climber.

01:43:25.000 That's a bear.

01:43:25.000 Well, you know, I mean, here we are, you know, strip mining our planet and, you know, killing stuff.

01:43:30.000 Oh, yeah!

01:43:31.000 It's not too different, I suppose.

01:43:32.000 We're not innocent.

01:43:33.000 We're certainly not innocent.

01:43:34.000 But my point is that I think that we have all these instincts because we are a part of the natural world.

01:43:41.000 And the only way we can transcend that is to eliminate all of those biological urges.

01:43:47.000 If we have true mastery over the material world, And to the point where we no longer need to be hindered by those biological urges, that seems to me like the best way to transcend space and time,

01:44:03.000 like the best way to eliminate all the things that kind of hold us back when it comes to logical, rational thinking.

01:44:10.000 A lot of it is emotional, you know, and I think that that may be the future of the intelligent species in the universe.

01:44:19.000 They probably don't You know, like barbarians.

01:44:24.000 They probably have transcended that, and they've recognized that all the problems that we have...

01:44:29.000 Like, what's the number one problem we have in the world?

01:44:31.000 It's probably war.

01:44:32.000 Other than the environment and what we're doing to the environment, it's probably war.

01:44:36.000 It's the most horrific, terrifying thing that human beings will attack other groups of human beings they don't even know and try to steal their resources, which is generally what they're trying to do when they're...

01:44:48.000 They don't go to war for no reason.

01:44:50.000 They're generally going to war for – there's a benefit there.

01:44:54.000 Well, if we could get past that – Boy, if there was no war, imagine the cooperation that we could have.

01:45:02.000 Imagine how much we could get done.

01:45:03.000 If we all spoke the same language, we all treated each other as if we were the same thing living other lives, and we all just shared resources and worked together to make life better for the species.

01:45:17.000 Well, how would you do that?

01:45:18.000 Well, you'd have to eliminate the lust and greed.

01:45:21.000 What's the best way to eliminate the lust and greed?

01:45:23.000 Well, to become something different and more advanced.

01:45:25.000 And the best way to do that is to no longer have all these urges that human beings have, the urge to be powerful and to dominate and all of our dominator culture stuff that's just a natural part of being a primate.

01:45:40.000 So what do we lose with that?

01:45:41.000 Everything.

01:45:42.000 We lose music and comedy and fun and romance.

01:45:46.000 We lose the best first date of your life where you lose everything.

01:45:53.000 You lose drinking wine and laughing with friends.

01:45:55.000 You're gonna lose everything.

01:45:57.000 You're gonna lose all the things that we love about being the imperfect creatures that we are today.

01:46:01.000 But what you gain Is you become these super powerful ultra enlightened beings that have different motivation and I think that that's probably going to occur It's going to probably occur in stages and one of the stages is probably going to be either virtual reality or Augmented reality that can provide you with experiences that are far superior to the physical ones that you have to get on your own

01:46:32.000 I mean, I think we romanticize so many things about our life.

01:46:38.000 Like that guy climbing, right?

01:46:39.000 That guy's climbing because he's trying to get this thrill of, like, trying to, like, physically take yourself through a dangerous course up a mountain and you get this thrill that you're doing this.

01:46:54.000 If you fall, you're dead.

01:46:55.000 And along the way, he almost gets fucking eaten, right?

01:46:58.000 Just bears.

01:46:59.000 Yeah, pretty wild.

01:47:00.000 But we romanticize it.

01:47:02.000 And it's baked into us in a way that it's like inherent to our physical being.

01:47:10.000 Like whenever I go on trips into the woods, one of the things that shocks me is how...

01:47:17.000 Good I feel.

01:47:19.000 Almost like it hits a frequency that I've been needing but that's not accessible to me living in a city.

01:47:28.000 And when I'm in the woods and when I'm climbing a mountain and I'm out there with nature, when I'm out there, I feel so good.

01:47:36.000 I feel so centered and grounded.

01:47:39.000 Like I feel better than I feel at any other time.

01:47:41.000 And it resets me in a way that's not available in a city.

01:47:46.000 But what if that's available through augmented reality or a virtual reality?

01:47:50.000 What if that's available through a chip that gets installed in your brain and it's far superior to that feeling that you get and you recognize the futility of that experience?

01:47:59.000 What you're trying to do is you're trying to recreate what it was like When people lived 1,000 years ago or 10,000 years ago and you had to survive by throwing a spear at a rabbit or whatever, that was the only way you could feed your family.

01:48:14.000 You would look at that time and how difficult it was and imagine just being able to go to a grocery store and going, oh my god, that's so much better.

01:48:22.000 Grocery store is so much better.

01:48:24.000 Nobody wants to go back to hunting for food every day.

01:48:26.000 It's too fucking hard.

01:48:28.000 But we don't think of it that way because we have the grocery store because it exists.

01:48:33.000 Well, what if there's something that's exponentially more significant than a grocery store?

01:48:40.000 Like that life experiences itself.

01:48:42.000 All the things that you love about life.

01:48:45.000 All the things you love about romance and creation and culture and all the wonderful things that we think of when we associate the best aspects of human life.

01:48:57.000 And human interaction and human community.

01:49:01.000 What if that pales in comparison to what could be created technologically?

01:49:06.000 We're gonna embrace it.

01:49:07.000 Just like we embrace phones.

01:49:09.000 I mean, we all have phones.

01:49:11.000 I remember the old days where I don't even have an email.

01:49:14.000 There was a few holdouts.

01:49:15.000 Those fucking people are all on board now.

01:49:17.000 It just took a decade.

01:49:18.000 Took a little while.

01:49:20.000 What if that's the future of this symbiotic interaction that we have with technology?

01:49:26.000 I think it is.

01:49:27.000 I think that's where we're going.

01:49:29.000 And my fascination with these UAPs and with this idea that we're being visited by these things, I almost feel like they're cultivating us.

01:49:40.000 I almost feel like they're watching us, like whatever they are, that they're just making sure we don't blow ourselves up along the process.

01:49:47.000 Because one of the things that has been discussed by many people that have experienced these things on military bases is their ability to shut down Bases.

01:49:56.000 Their ability to shut down these nuclear facilities.

01:50:00.000 And that you've got to think that if they were going to wonder about any one particular thing that we have access to, it's being in this transitionary period between Having these primate instincts and applying them to spectacular technology in a brutish,

01:50:19.000 horrific way, like we're worried about right now with Russia.

01:50:22.000 We're worried that Putin, because all the horrific things that are happening already in Ukraine, the bombings and the drone strikes and possibly the use of hypersonic missiles, what if that's applied to nuclear weapons?

01:50:35.000 What if we're dealing with a nuclear holocaust?

01:50:38.000 I mean, that's really what we're worried about.

01:50:40.000 And I wonder if that's what they're monitoring.

01:50:45.000 You know, you asked earlier about the why now part, right?

01:50:48.000 But, you know, there's a lot of stuff happening, right?

01:50:51.000 There's climate, there's war, there's everything else.

01:50:54.000 It feels like we're accelerating towards something, right?

01:50:56.000 And technology, not least of all, moving us towards, you know, what some people call the singularity.

01:51:03.000 And yeah, you know, maybe they're all here to watch the birth in a sense.

01:51:06.000 I think the hope would be that we would be part of that birth, as you described, to integrate with the artificial intelligence.

01:51:12.000 I know that there's efforts to consider the moral and ethical application of artificial intelligence, but are we fooling ourselves?

01:51:23.000 Are we going to have the options of maintaining an ethical AI once it's been created?

01:51:29.000 Is it possible to create safeguards in AI that...

01:51:32.000 Transition past, you know, or into the singularity and allow it to keep in mind human interest once it's already become sentient, if that can happen.

01:51:45.000 One thing that you mentioned about artificial intelligence and if that is the output of our craving for advancement, what does that change for the world, right?

01:51:56.000 There would only be one general artificial intelligence, I would assume, because anything that would be created afterwards, if it was not a secret, would be assumed by the primary AI. Right.

01:52:06.000 You know, so this kind of ties into a thought I've had before about, you know, maybe the way we were interacted with UAP or, you know, we're going to make the assumption that they're coming from another planet right now.

01:52:18.000 And so with that assumption, you know, perhaps as societies mature, much like you described, they do start to, you know, advance their sociological side.

01:52:27.000 They start to work better as a group.

01:52:29.000 They, you know, remove some of those more animalistic urges that they evolved with, right, and that remained.

01:52:34.000 When they got the power of the gods, if you will, right?

01:52:36.000 Once they had technology but were still, you know, commanded by their primal urges.

01:52:42.000 You know, you may very well be right.

01:52:44.000 There's that transitional period that we live in at this moment.

01:52:47.000 Maybe that adds to a lot of the hecticness of our current days, right?

01:52:57.000 But what if those other planets, since they have realized that, you know, they interact with us as a planet, as an entity, you know?

01:53:03.000 If that's the way their society has evolved in a sense to be more collaborative and less argumentative, then they may approach us as, you know, as a planet-to-planet versus a country-to-country, right, or individual-to-individual.

01:53:17.000 They might assume that since the best things can only happen when the most people work together, right?

01:53:24.000 In a sense, if we can assume that, you know, if you and I work together, Joe, we can do more than just if either of us worked alone, right?

01:53:32.000 If we make that assumption and we apply that to a planet, it would make sense that, you know, if there are a bunch of species out there that if they survive, they would have worked together, learned how to work together, right?

01:53:42.000 Yeah.

01:53:42.000 And they might assume that of us.

01:53:44.000 They're like, oh, wow, look, they have all these cool tools.

01:53:46.000 They must have moved to that point where they know how to work together.

01:53:49.000 Do you think that?

01:53:50.000 I don't think they would think that.

01:53:51.000 I think they'd watch us and they'd go, oh, look at these crazy fucks.

01:53:54.000 Well, that's why we're anomaly, right?

01:53:55.000 That's why we're anomaly, because we do have these tools and yet we're not ready.

01:53:59.000 Maybe that's just how it normally is when a civilization or when civilization in general advances past a point where we're at now.

01:54:09.000 That there is this chaotic moment where there are sort of a combination of lower primate and higher being.

01:54:18.000 And the power of nuclear weapons, the power to send video through the sky, and it appears on a device that you keep in your pocket that you literally talk to, and it gives you answers to things.

01:54:31.000 I was having a conversation with my kids last night, and they went to see Lil Nas X and how great it was.

01:54:36.000 And I'm like, how old is that guy?

01:54:38.000 How old is Lil Nas X? Bang, 23. It just shows you on the phone.

01:54:42.000 I'm like, how wild is that?

01:54:43.000 That you could talk to a device.

01:54:44.000 I mean, that's fucking Jetson shit.

01:54:46.000 I mean, when I was a kid, that wasn't even in Star Trek.

01:54:50.000 Even in Star Trek, they had walkie-talkies, remember?

01:54:53.000 It was like, Kurt, out.

01:54:55.000 And you had to hang up his stupid phone.

01:54:57.000 No one imagined the internet, even in science fiction, And that's something that we have through the sky that is in incredible speeds.

01:55:08.000 It just shows up on your phone.

01:55:09.000 And the battery lasts all day long.

01:55:12.000 You watch YouTube videos all day long.

01:55:14.000 It's crazy what we're going through right now.

01:55:16.000 And we complain about it.

01:55:17.000 Battery doesn't last long enough.

01:55:19.000 We complain about everything.

01:55:22.000 But that's always going to be the case.

01:55:23.000 We're always going to be unsatisfied and that dissatisfaction is what leads to innovation because it's part of our lust and thirst for constant growth and improvement and which is one of the things that we do.

01:55:35.000 I mean think about materialism in general.

01:55:37.000 Like what is materialism?

01:55:39.000 What does materialism fuel?

01:55:40.000 What purpose would that serve, this stupid need for constant acquiring of objects?

01:55:47.000 Well, it serves to make sure that people make better and better stuff because that's the best way to fuel materialism.

01:55:54.000 If you want people to continue this sort of fruitless desire to acquire new objects, you've got to have new, better stuff constantly.

01:56:05.000 Well, if you have new, better stuff constantly, what does that do?

01:56:08.000 Well, it fuels innovation because you have to make the things better.

01:56:12.000 It's like our own stupid desire for materialism, it fuels technological innovation.

01:56:18.000 It's like baked in.

01:56:20.000 It's a part of us.

01:56:22.000 All our solutions are usually technology-based as well, right?

01:56:26.000 Yeah, for everything.

01:56:27.000 It's never about how do we raise our children better or how do we kind of work on the personal side of things.

01:56:36.000 It's always what tool can we make that makes that problem go away.

01:56:39.000 Yeah, even when we have problems, like we have carbon emission problems.

01:56:43.000 Well, I was reading an article.

01:56:46.000 I don't remember what website's on.

01:56:47.000 What are the scientific websites?

01:56:49.000 About a new concrete that they have that extracts carbon.

01:56:53.000 The concrete itself.

01:56:55.000 The construction of concrete apparently leads to carbon emissions, right?

01:57:03.000 You know, transportation of the raw materials and all the things that are involved in making concrete.

01:57:08.000 Well, they've developed a concrete that actually extracts carbon from the atmosphere, which is pretty wild.

01:57:15.000 So these people that have problems, they see these problems like what's a solution?

01:57:20.000 Well, here's a technological solution for a complex problem.

01:57:23.000 So we don't have to alter our behavior, but we'll have complex technological solutions that mitigate these problems.

01:57:31.000 Makes a lot of sense.

01:57:32.000 Yeah.

01:57:33.000 You know, to describe how I got into flying, it was very much to fill that urge that you described.

01:57:39.000 You know, when I thought about flying a jet, it wasn't for passionate flying, really.

01:57:43.000 You know, I hadn't had access to that, so I didn't develop it, but...

01:57:47.000 You know, I thought that was the place that I could really be at the tip of the spear as far as technology and how I could access it just as a regular guy, you know, with no experience or anything like that.

01:57:58.000 So, I mean, frankly, I was driven by, you know, that same urge just went about a different way.

01:58:02.000 Well, that's one of the more fascinating things about classified military intelligence.

01:58:07.000 Because of the fact that it's military and because of the fact that there's a great benefit to the country for it being top secret and not being available to our enemies...

01:58:20.000 We develop this stuff that we're not even aware of.

01:58:22.000 So our tax money goes in a way that's kind of unaccountable, and it's gigantic budget, and huge.

01:58:33.000 How many trillions of dollars a year?

01:58:35.000 Didn't we look at it the other day?

01:58:38.000 Yeah, the Defense Department budget, and we don't even know where all that stuff goes, right?

01:58:41.000 But it's trillions, trillions of dollars.

01:58:43.000 I can't even imagine how much money.

01:58:44.000 It's insane how much money it is.

01:58:46.000 And it's going towards these technologies that we don't even know about until we see them implemented, like the stealth bomber, for instance, is one of them, or the Manhattan Project, or many other things throughout history.

01:59:00.000 That's fascinating, too, because there's so much that's being—so when I see something like these objects, these UAPs, part of me goes, like, how much of that shit is ours?

01:59:11.000 How much of that shit is ours where they don't want to talk about it, they don't want to let us know, but they're implementing these technologies?

01:59:19.000 And does Russia have something similar?

01:59:21.000 Does China have something similar?

01:59:23.000 Like, how much of that shit— Is stuff that's just top secret drone technology.

01:59:29.000 Because why is it all so near military bases?

01:59:33.000 That's one of the things that I thought almost immediately about the Tic Tac.

01:59:36.000 Because that Tic Tac thing is real close to the Nimitz and it's real close to all the bases that are near San Diego.

01:59:45.000 I'm like, what if that's ours?

01:59:46.000 What if that's some super top secret, high level shit that we're not privy to that information?

01:59:55.000 That's always, I don't want to call it a risk, but, you know, I think we're inclined to think like that, too, and we want to, because, again, we want to be true, right?

02:00:03.000 Like, we want our government to be that smart and to have that information.

02:00:07.000 It makes us feel safer, I think.

02:00:10.000 Oh, yeah.

02:00:10.000 I want it to be like a Captain America shield that flies at like 10 times the speed of light.

02:00:18.000 But, you know, where does that end, right?

02:00:19.000 Like, let's just say that's true.

02:00:21.000 Like, how much technology that could be beneficial for society via either, you know, energy production or ways we can't even imagine because it was designed for a particular use case.

02:00:32.000 But whenever something like kind of gets out and it's exposed to kind of that innovation ecosystem, right?

02:00:37.000 It's just, there's a flourishing.

02:00:39.000 People use that technology and those ideas in ways that people never thought of before.

02:00:43.000 And so it's not like you hear of something hidden away or technology, but imagine if all that was just like out in the open to be kind of meddled upon by the quantity of minds we have nowadays with the access to the tools we have.

02:00:56.000 The problem with that is war, right?

02:00:58.000 The problem is that we can't have that kind of technology available to our enemies because then they would use it on us.

02:01:04.000 That's the big fear.

02:01:05.000 So if we do have something that's like super powerful and just beyond imagination at this point of our understanding of what's technologically available and that shit gets in the hands of Russia or gets in the hands of China or gets in the hands of whoever, Iran, and then they use it on us before we could use it on them.

02:01:22.000 Like we want to have the technological military superiority because we think of ourselves as best case scenario of human beings on planet Earth in 2022. Well, what if we've had it for a while and we've essentially blown that lead?

02:01:39.000 Yeah, that's possible too.

02:01:40.000 Why are we talking about it more then?

02:01:42.000 Because I assume that would still hold true unless there's been work elsewhere that has pushed up, made that less relevant.

02:01:48.000 What do you think?

02:01:49.000 I think if we're experiencing it here, it's probably something that our adversaries are dealing with and probably are working on as well.

02:01:55.000 Have they discussed it at all?

02:01:57.000 Are you aware of any discussion, whether it's the Chinese government or the Russian government?

02:02:04.000 Is there any discussion at all about UAPs over there?

02:02:07.000 There's a lot in Russia.

02:02:08.000 I mean, Russia has a history of UAP, just like we do in the United States, you know, from my amateur research.

02:02:15.000 And China, too, has been taking notice.

02:02:17.000 I hear that they have been apparently working on artificial intelligence or machine learning solutions to better understand what these objects are.

02:02:26.000 They've been communicating that they've been seeing a large number of these objects and that the sightings have been increasing.

02:02:32.000 Everything that leaves China essentially comes out of state media, so what are they communicating exactly?

02:02:37.000 I don't know, but they have been looking into it.

02:02:42.000 Yeah, I mean, maybe that would be the thing that unites us.

02:02:45.000 Remember that Ronald Reagan speech?

02:02:47.000 The Ronald Reagan speech, was it from the United Nations?

02:02:50.000 I learned about it, yeah.

02:02:51.000 Yeah, it's a wild speech.

02:02:53.000 You've seen the speech, right?

02:02:54.000 Well, would Russia help us, or the Soviet Union help us if we were attacked from out of space?

02:02:57.000 Yeah, well, imagine how quickly we would have banned our differences if we were faced with an alien threat from another world.

02:03:03.000 I hope.

02:03:04.000 Yeah, all the UFO people went bonkers, like, oh my god, he knows something!

02:03:08.000 Ronnie's trying to tell us!

02:03:11.000 You know, that's, I think, I mean, if there was something that united us as a human race, instead of thinking ourselves as like these individual communities that live on patches of land, you know, tribal attitudes, like the one thing that would do that is something from another planet.

02:03:30.000 Knock on wood, you know, we have seen mostly bipartisanship in the bills that have been passing in the Congress and Senate regarding UAP activities in the United States.

02:03:39.000 So, you know, to that point, it seems to, you know, what's been happening in Congress and Senate has been...

02:03:47.000 Very rational, you know, strong, bipartisan work by both, you know, Senator Gillibrand, Senator Rubio, you know, they've been working together on this problem.

02:03:58.000 So to your point, you know, I hope that continues.

02:04:01.000 I hope that is the thing that can kind of get us over all the back and forth.

02:04:06.000 What are the big—I'm sure besides the Commander David Fravor situation and some of the—what have you ever heard of that's a big instance,

02:04:21.000 like something crazy along those lines that maybe people haven't heard of?

02:04:26.000 I don't know what people haven't heard of, but there was a flyover of the United States Capitol, it seems, at some point in the 50s, where a group of UAP were just kind of cruising over the White House and the state building.

02:04:43.000 You can find pictures of it out there, although it hasn't been- Pictures of it?

02:04:46.000 Well, you know, it's like a formation of lights, essentially.

02:04:49.000 So, you know, what is it?

02:04:50.000 Who knows?

02:04:51.000 But essentially, yeah, there you go.

02:04:53.000 What?

02:04:54.000 Well, that's a drawing.

02:04:56.000 That's a drawing, but...

02:04:57.000 That looks terrible.

02:04:59.000 Oh, so that's the actual thing?

02:05:01.000 Wow.

02:05:02.000 UFO sightings, a peaceful union, or battlefield earth.

02:05:06.000 So, is that a real photograph?

02:05:08.000 So, it's from the 1950s?

02:05:09.000 This is from the History Channel, so this could be like a recreation of it.

02:05:11.000 Oh, right.

02:05:12.000 Probably.

02:05:13.000 Could be.

02:05:14.000 So, from the 1950...

02:05:16.000 And that's a...

02:05:17.000 That's a drawing for the newspaper.

02:05:19.000 Yeah.

02:05:20.000 Saucers over Washington, D.C. Harry S. Barnes, Senior Air Route Traffic Controller for the Civil Aeronautics Administration, was in charge of the National Airport Washington, D.C. ART Control Center the night of July 19, 1952. Briefly...

02:05:37.000 He states in a newspaper article, our job is to constantly monitor the skies around the nation's capital with the electronic eye of radar shortly after midnight.

02:05:47.000 On that date, seven PIPs.

02:05:50.000 What is a PIPs?

02:05:52.000 Do you know what that is?

02:05:53.000 PIPs?

02:05:54.000 Seven PIPs?

02:05:54.000 I don't know.

02:05:55.000 Seven pips appeared suddenly on the control center scope.

02:06:00.000 Ed Nugent, Jim Copeland, and Jim Ritchie, all experienced radar controllers, checked the observations.

02:06:07.000 The airport control tower radar operator verified the same sighting.

02:06:12.000 They were over the restricted areas of Washington, including the White House and the Capitol.

02:06:19.000 Wow.

02:06:21.000 And there was some concern then that these were Russian, right?

02:06:27.000 Because this was during the Cold War.

02:06:28.000 This is post-World War II. We had gotten some of the Nazi scientists and they went on to work for NASA through Operation Paperclip.

02:06:37.000 And then Russia had gotten some Nazi scientists as well.

02:06:40.000 And we were concerned with who's going to develop some sort of spaceship or who's going to get to the moon first.

02:06:47.000 And all that shit was going on around then, right?

02:06:50.000 Yeah, absolutely.

02:06:51.000 And, you know, a few years, supposedly after Roswell, and, you know, people always ask about, you know, it's like, well, why haven't we seen them?

02:06:58.000 Why haven't they landed on the White House law and all that?

02:07:00.000 But it's interesting, if you do look back, there are some interesting examples of, you know, large groups of objects flying over, you know, very important areas, you know, clearly making themselves known.

02:07:10.000 Well, my take on that is, like, if we find an ant colony, do we make ourselves available to the queen for a meeting?

02:07:17.000 We don't give a fuck who thinks they're in charge.

02:07:20.000 You know, like, if they're that advanced, they can come here from another galaxy.

02:07:26.000 They probably don't give a shit about Biden.

02:07:29.000 Like, come on.

02:07:30.000 That's so silly.

02:07:31.000 Oh, that's your king?

02:07:32.000 But we do.

02:07:33.000 We care about them.

02:07:34.000 So if they wanted to influence most of our people, they might look to influencing the person we all look to, in a sense.

02:07:40.000 Or defy the power of these institutions by hovering over the Pentagon.

02:07:47.000 Exactly.

02:07:47.000 And letting them know we control.

02:07:49.000 You know?

02:07:50.000 I'm the captain now.

02:07:51.000 Look at me.

02:07:52.000 I'm the captain now.

02:07:58.000 This thing with the New York Times from 2017 and having these meetings with these high-level officials that are concerned about these things, is this all...

02:08:11.000 Is this moving in a general direction of transparency, do you think?

02:08:15.000 Do you think they're recognizing that this is something that has to be addressed and that people have to be informed about this because it's so prevalent?

02:08:24.000 I do, yeah.

02:08:25.000 So, I mean, that's what I'm seeing at this point.

02:08:28.000 You know, I've engaged, again, with people at the Hill and they are taking this very seriously.

02:08:34.000 And by extension, they have pushed that seriousness back to, you know, D&I, DOD, and the offices that have stood up within there, namely ARO right now, or the All Domain Anomaly Resolution Office.

02:08:48.000 From my perspective, they, you know, they have a charter to engage the community on this, of course, not to...

02:09:23.000 What do you think their motivation for doing that?

02:09:28.000 I can't say exactly, but when I have been pushing people to pay attention to this, it's very simple.

02:09:35.000 Again, for me, it's about people are still flying by these things and almost hitting them, right?

02:09:39.000 We can talk all day about the societal implications of what they are, but at the end of the day, the people, the operators that are flying around out there have to not hit these things.

02:09:48.000 And so, you know, from that sense, it's hard, I think, for people to ignore that because they understand that, you know, this is a serious safety risk and that as we kind of transition that new knowledge of the risk to the commercial markets and the general aviation communities,

02:10:06.000 it's going to probably stir a few feathers, you know.

02:10:09.000 The commercial markets, I think, don't necessarily want to acknowledge this because they have zero safety plan.

02:10:15.000 They've been ignoring this for a while.

02:10:17.000 And, you know, they might have to answer some hard questions about, you know, why they are ignoring the potential for midair with hundreds of people on their aircraft.

02:10:26.000 Has there ever been an instance where there has been a midair collision or crash that happened because of, you know, trying to avoid one of these things?

02:10:40.000 That's actually a better question than what I thought you were going to ask because I thought, you know, that's a great thing.

02:10:44.000 If a pilot sees one of these objects, right, and they have zero training on it and they have no idea what it is or what to do, they might maneuver that aircraft in a way that could cause the aircraft to depart or to hurt somebody, right?

02:10:54.000 Right.

02:10:54.000 And so the angle you just touched on, which is the kind of training and, you know, the policy side of it where, you know, because we're actively not teaching pilots to deal with this, they could do something dangerous when they do it.

02:11:06.000 I thought you were going to ask, have we ever seen an airplane crash because of midair with a UFO? And again, we don't know, right?

02:11:13.000 Of course, there's been plane crashes, but nothing's been proven or else we wouldn't be having this conversation.

02:11:18.000 Right.

02:11:18.000 But avoiding something would cause a real issue.

02:11:23.000 If you're flying 500 miles an hour and you see something in front of you, you have to make an abrupt maneuver that's unplanned.

02:11:30.000 Yeah.

02:11:32.000 Absolutely.

02:11:33.000 Or the pilot says, oh, that's just something on my windscreen because clearly UFOs don't exist.

02:11:37.000 And then they barrel into something and it turns out to be a balloon and they lose an engine, right?

02:11:41.000 There's all sorts of ways you can go wrong and not talking about it is never the solution when it comes to aviation safety.

02:11:49.000 How many pilots, like, when it comes to commercial air pilots, how many pilots report these sort of sightings?

02:11:56.000 And do these reports get to the Pentagon?

02:12:00.000 Do they get to the White House?

02:12:01.000 Like, how does that happen?

02:12:02.000 From where?

02:12:03.000 If someone's, like, flying for American Airlines and they see a circle with a cube inside of it that's, like, going, you know, the speed of sound, like, what happens?

02:12:13.000 You know, most likely the pilot will call up the air traffic controller they're currently talking with and ask them if they see the object or if, you know, there's other air traffic there.

02:12:21.000 And the most likely answer, you know, from what I've heard is no, they don't see the object.

02:12:27.000 And so that just kind of leaves the pilot there at that point.

02:12:31.000 There is something that essentially says within the FAA manuals, if you will, I don't know the exact one, where it says, hey, if you think you've seen a UFO, it actually uses that terminology, then you have the option to report it to the FAA. It doesn't even tell you in office.

02:12:48.000 It's just kind of like, if you feel the need to report it, then that's something you're going to do.

02:12:51.000 So what that tells me is that this isn't the first time that there's been people poking around trying to report on it, but that was really the best they could do is just say, you know, hey, if you really feel like this is important, then sure, you can fire a message off, right?

02:13:04.000 And that's kind of it.

02:13:05.000 So there's no organization.

02:13:05.000 There's no acknowledgement.

02:13:07.000 What's this, Jamie?

02:13:08.000 A commercial pilot that filmed something he saw.

02:13:13.000 What is that thing you see?

02:13:14.000 It gets closer.

02:13:18.000 So he's zooming in, and there's this, like, black dot.

02:13:21.000 It's like a circle?

02:13:23.000 It kind of looks...

02:13:24.000 What does it look like?

02:13:26.000 What the fuck is that?

02:13:28.000 Is that a TIE fighter?

02:13:29.000 Star Wars?

02:13:30.000 That's a cube.

02:13:31.000 So this was over a media in Columbia.

02:13:33.000 Whoa.

02:13:33.000 And it got...

02:13:34.000 The article I found said that this was, like, labeled as a UFO, is all it was labeled as.

02:13:40.000 I'm trying to find the link I had.

02:13:42.000 Look at that.

02:13:43.000 It's like a cube.

02:13:44.000 Go back to that again.

02:13:45.000 I mean...

02:13:48.000 That looks like a square.

02:13:52.000 The air crew on this particular incident, if I remember correctly, had seen the object for some time before it came in to the camera's field of view, right?

02:14:01.000 So what's likely happening here is that the air crew are flying past that object, right?

02:14:06.000 So like, it's not that the object's not flying down their nose, it's the aircraft flying.

02:14:11.000 So they're flying close to it.

02:14:12.000 So it might be a balloon or something that's just floating around?

02:14:15.000 Not to say that, but generally speaking, I think their kind of story, if I remember correctly, is that they were seeing it for a while and it was like doing something that was like strange to them.

02:14:25.000 I don't know what, if it's moving or changing shape like you saw or what, but it was something that like...

02:14:30.000 Completely drew their attention and pulling their phones out.

02:14:33.000 Airline pilots are not supposed to use their phone inside the cockpit like that.

02:14:37.000 He's breaking the rules in order to take a video of that, which I applaud him for.

02:14:42.000 But, you know, this is exactly the type of thing that we talk about when we talk about needing procedures and things of that nature, right?

02:14:48.000 He's breaking the rules in order to get data on this, right?

02:14:50.000 And that's obviously not conducive to, you know, a proper investigation of this topic.

02:14:55.000 Right.

02:14:55.000 There was another one that was recent that was being discussed online that was taken from a fighter jet, I don't remember what model jet, where it was the same sort of a situation where someone was taking a photo of some sort of a triangle-shaped object that was in the sky.

02:15:12.000 I'm not sure about that one.

02:15:14.000 Do you remember that, Jamie?

02:15:15.000 Yeah, I had two.

02:15:16.000 So there's one that shows that photo, like it's an artist's rendition of it.

02:15:21.000 So it shows a real fake triangle.

02:15:23.000 I saw another one where it was filmed from a cockpit, and there's a very split second, you can see something fly by, and they've still framed that.

02:15:31.000 I'll try to pull that up again.

02:15:33.000 I'm trying to figure out which link I had it on.

02:15:36.000 It's gotta be so strange for you to go from not really having any understanding of these things to upgraded radar and then holy shit, you see them every day.

02:15:49.000 Yeah.

02:15:50.000 I mean, I wish it was, people always ask me, like, what was it like?

02:15:54.000 It was never this just, like, come to Jesus moment where it was like, you know, oh my god, there's, you know, UIP here.

02:16:00.000 We were very, you know, pragmatic about it until we were at that time.

02:16:04.000 Yeah, this was in the hearing, I think.

02:16:07.000 Flash by super quick there.

02:16:09.000 Right, and then someone took a still of it as it flashes by, right?

02:16:13.000 Yeah.

02:16:15.000 So whatever that thing is just whips by.

02:16:21.000 Yeah, so this is what they were shown in a hearing in Congress.

02:16:27.000 Those pilots didn't wander up to that object, right?

02:16:29.000 Like, they had radar on it, they had the FLIR on it, if they were carrying a FLIR. The only reason they showed that was because they didn't have to declassify it.

02:16:36.000 It was an air crew's phone, right?

02:16:38.000 So there's this beast of an animal that surrounds us, which is the U.S. classification system.

02:16:45.000 And, you know, the default is that stuff is classified more or less, right?

02:16:50.000 And so, you know, that is something that needs to be contended with by, you know, Arrow, by the groups actively working in this because they have to essentially work against that system, right?

02:17:00.000 It's not intended to release information to the public.

02:17:02.000 It's not why it's designed.

02:17:04.000 It's designed the opposite of that.

02:17:08.000 In terms of these images that have been released, what to you is the most compelling?

02:17:14.000 Have you seen any of them that have been really fascinating to you?

02:17:21.000 I have heard that there's some...

02:17:25.000 Incontrovertibly interesting stuff floating around now.

02:17:28.000 So, yes, like we said, in the past there's been stuff, but now that there's been an actual reporting mechanism since, you know, the UAP Task Force started that proactive system, and since then, there has been recordings and things that are now floating around, you know, the general classified network that's not like some buried secret that people,

02:17:46.000 you know, that people with the proper access can go and verify themselves, frankly.

02:17:51.000 And, you know, I've met some of these people that have done their own homework and they're incredibly passionate about volunteering their time to help.

02:17:58.000 Some of them are helping me within the AIAA because they understand that, you know, we're entering a new realm of understanding our world, I think.

02:18:05.000 So you've heard that there's some evidence that we're not privy to, or that...

02:18:10.000 Yeah, general public.

02:18:12.000 I mean, I have no doubt that there's a plethora of images, classified images, that will give us a lot more to talk about than that frame or two that we just saw.

02:18:21.000 Do you have any hope that that stuff will ultimately be released?

02:18:25.000 I think that there is a pathway there.

02:18:29.000 I do think there is a pathway for the declassification of data so that the scientific community can better understand it.

02:18:37.000 I have been working with the American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics with some of the emerging players within this landscape, I'll say.

02:18:46.000 And we've been working very hard to see how we can, you know, the organization that we put together, how we can help those other institutions.

02:18:53.000 In the near future, you know, we'll be able to announce some of those collaborations so that the general public can better understand the type of work that we're going to be doing.

02:19:03.000 What do you think the benefit for the government to release that information?

02:19:08.000 Like why would they be transparent about it?

02:19:11.000 Why wouldn't they just continue to sort of dismiss it and look, we had our little hearings and let's just go about our business and whatever we get, we'll keep to ourselves.

02:19:20.000 I don't know.

02:19:21.000 You know, I don't know.

02:19:22.000 Part of me wants to say, hey, maybe it's kind of a changing of the guard of a bit, right?

02:19:26.000 I mean, it's been a while, if all the stories are to be believed, and it's kind of a new generation of people that kind of grew up in a more open society in a bit, I feel.

02:19:37.000 Maybe less inclined to just bury everything away for the greater good.

02:19:41.000 And that's pure speculation, right?

02:19:43.000 That's how I feel, perhaps, you know, as a bit of a new guard into this topic, you know?

02:19:49.000 But at the end of the day, I don't think, you know, I don't know and I hope we find out, right?

02:19:55.000 I hope we kind of get the debrief at the end of the day one day, but I don't know if we'll get that.

02:20:00.000 Because you've been open about this, and I know you did Lex Friedman's podcast, you've discussed this, and I saw some other things about you discussing this online.

02:20:09.000 What's been the reaction from other people?

02:20:15.000 Have you received more information?

02:20:18.000 Have people reached out to you to talk to you about things that they've seen?

02:20:23.000 Have you received criticism from discussing this openly?

02:20:27.000 I have not received criticism for talking about openly.

02:20:30.000 I think there was a period of time where, as to be expected, my former colleagues were treating this like a joke, like it was, you know, in the ready room.

02:20:39.000 But ECHO shut down pretty quickly, from what I've heard.

02:20:42.000 And generally speaking, you know, I've had people reach out, you know, with support, people incredibly passionate about this topic.

02:20:50.000 You know, I like the word latent demand now because, in a sense, all the stories and topics and obscuration on this topic hasn't made people's interest go away.

02:21:02.000 It just kind of bottled it up, in a sense, at least what I hear.

02:21:05.000 Because I have, you know, every day people mailing me saying, you know, Thank you.

02:21:09.000 I can feel like I can talk about this now in a respectful manner.

02:21:12.000 I'm a professor at a college and we're going to start looking into this with the students because the students are super passionate about this.

02:21:19.000 And so I think the younger generation is very easy to accept and integrate the possibility, I'll say.

02:21:26.000 Whereas the older guard is coming around in a sense.

02:21:29.000 So I do think that it is possible, I would say, for, like we talked about, as this technology change happens with people moving into that technology faster and faster and it kind of leaves our society behind in a bit.

02:21:43.000 I think the same thing is going to happen with this topic, right?

02:21:45.000 Like there are people that are going to be able to integrate this into their reality faster or sooner than other people.

02:21:51.000 And, you know, much like technology, there's going to be advantages to people that do integrate that information.

02:21:57.000 But the hope is that I think we'll get everyone there one day.

02:22:01.000 And the hope for me is that people release more of this stuff, like the leaks that Jeremy Corbell's gotten about the Transmedium device and some of the other things.

02:22:13.000 There was another one where there was those pyramid-shaped objects that were flying over.

02:22:19.000 Was it an aircraft carrier?

02:22:21.000 Some ship.

02:22:22.000 I don't think it was a carrier.

02:22:23.000 Yeah.

02:22:24.000 I think it was like a destroyer or something like that.

02:22:25.000 What did you think of those videos?

02:22:29.000 There's a lot of like...

02:22:30.000 See if you can find that, Jamie.

02:22:31.000 It's really weird.

02:22:32.000 They're like pyramids.

02:22:34.000 And they're flying around like these things.

02:22:38.000 Yeah.

02:22:39.000 Flashing triangular shaped object.

02:22:44.000 Shown through a night vision camera over the USS Russell and footage leaked to Jeremy Corbell.

02:22:50.000 Did you watch that footage at all?

02:22:54.000 Yeah.

02:22:57.000 I don't know, you know, people I know were nugget down and kind of arguing about the shape of the object, right?

02:23:03.000 Triangle or not.

02:23:04.000 I told people, I said, I don't give a shit what it's shaped like.

02:23:07.000 Like, these things should not be flying over a U.S. destroyer, like, regardless.

02:23:11.000 Like, let's focus on the right things here.

02:23:14.000 There's a sense that if something can be prosaically explained, then it must be, right?

02:23:20.000 If there's an unknown object that has a light on it, it's impossible for it to be a UAP because UAV have lights and they need lights.

02:23:30.000 So that's the simplest explanation and therefore everything else is negated, right?

02:23:34.000 And you need to have that exceptional evidence for it to even be considered.

02:23:39.000 I don't care.

02:23:41.000 It's near a naval asset, and that's our airspace.

02:23:46.000 And whether the shape is interesting or not is irrelevant.

02:23:49.000 It's a massive security flaw to have objects like that flying near a ship.

02:23:55.000 It's a travesty if that's what our Navy is allowing foreign adversaries to do.

02:24:00.000 So that needs to get fixed.

02:24:02.000 And if it's not foreign adversaries, then we need to better understand that as well.

02:24:06.000 If you had a pile of chips and you were going to push it into red or black, red is some sort of human-based technology, black is aliens.

02:24:22.000 Can we say other instead of aliens?

02:24:24.000 Okay.

02:24:24.000 Just something crazy.

02:24:25.000 Other.

02:24:26.000 Non-human intelligence.

02:24:27.000 Non-human intelligence.

02:24:28.000 Something from somewhere else, whether it's another dimension, another planet.

02:24:32.000 What do you think?

02:24:33.000 I think there's another actor involved.

02:24:37.000 I think there is another.

02:24:38.000 I think that there is something that is not human that is interacting in some fashion.

02:24:43.000 I don't know whether it comes from somewhere else or was here before or comes from something we don't understand, but there is a segment of the data that is just not explainable at this point.

02:24:56.000 From my experience, again, not 100%, not binary, but on the scale, that's the direction that I've continued to move in based off what I've seen, and I haven't had any reason to go the other way.

02:25:09.000 Do you bounce around possibilities in your head of whether or not this thing is interdimensional from another planet?

02:25:18.000 Yeah, you know, the dimensional thing is interesting in a lot of different ways.

02:25:25.000 We obviously, you know, obviously, but, you know, we don't necessarily evolve to see reality, right?

02:25:32.000 We evolve to survive in our environment, as we talked about before.

02:25:37.000 And our interaction with, you know, this 3D space-time or 4D, I should say, may not be the complete picture.

02:25:44.000 You know, we call things other dimensions or X, Y, or Z, but, you know, what does that really mean?

02:25:50.000 Does that mean a consciousness that's bound in an electromagnetic, you know, pattern, right?

02:25:55.000 Is that a higher dimension or is that, you know, a life form occurring in three-dimensional space?

02:26:01.000 I don't know the answer to that, right?

02:26:02.000 It's kind of a nuanced discussion.

02:26:04.000 And I think that at the end of the day, we don't really fully understand our universe well enough to fit it into one of the buckets that we've already defined.

02:26:10.000 You know, I think there's undefined buckets that could be a participant in this conversation.

02:26:14.000 Not that I say you know where they are, right?

02:26:16.000 But I'm just assuming that there's unknowns, you know, in the makeup of our universe, whether it's the 3D, you know, 4D space-time or whether it's something beyond space-time.

02:26:25.000 And I don't know what those unknowns are, where they could live.

02:26:29.000 There's your classic, you know, vision of time travelers or people kind of stepping outside of our space-time into, you know, another land.

02:26:37.000 There's also another quote-unquote, you know, dimension if we think about, you know, quantum.

02:26:42.000 The quantum regime and, you know, wave functions and, you know, one interpretation has those wave functions not collapsing, right?

02:26:50.000 And so then there's multiple realities of all possibilities happening at once.

02:26:54.000 So there's lots of different definitions of multi-dimensional and I think we're just still scraping the surface as it is and we're going to learn more about where things could come from in the future.

02:27:05.000 Well, I certainly hope so.

02:27:06.000 One of the things that gives me hope is the fact that this is discussed openly now as opposed to when I was younger.

02:27:12.000 When I was a kid, if you talked about UFOs, you were kind of a fool.

02:27:16.000 You were a silly person.

02:27:19.000 It's like talking about elves or leprechauns or something.

02:27:23.000 It was dumb.

02:27:24.000 Like, why are you concerning yourself with UFOs?

02:27:26.000 Those are all silly stories.

02:27:27.000 The only one that was really compelling was the Roswell story.

02:27:32.000 Because the Roswell story was actually reported in the newspaper that they recovered a crashed UFO. And then, you know, they actually flew it to, I think it was Wright-Patterson Air Force Base in two separate jets.

02:27:44.000 They flew the wreckage as to, in case one of them goes down, they still have some of the wreckage in one of the jets, which was amazing at the time.

02:27:53.000 You know, but, you know, then the next day they said it was a balloon, it was a mistake, and who knows what that was.

02:27:59.000 I mean, I don't know how much of you looked into that story.

02:28:04.000 I've read Corso's book.

02:28:06.000 So I've got that perspective, of course, kind of read the mainstream interpretation of it.

02:28:11.000 What was Corso's perspective on it?

02:28:13.000 What did he think?

02:28:14.000 Well, he kind of broke down this whole, you know, he told the UFO story as much as you could tell it.

02:28:21.000 I'm not necessarily vouching for any of it, but he really goes into, you know, details like you just described around moving things around and technologies that could have been, you know, observed, things of that nature.

02:28:33.000 Again, you know, stuff almost like Bob Lazar where, you know, he's highlighting technologies and describing one way that we now recognize, you know, things like fiber optics and things of that nature.

02:28:43.000 So, you know, I don't know where the truth lays, but again, it's all being clouded by this classification system, right?

02:28:51.000 Like, the full story is still classified, and what happens when you have information gap like that is people just fill it in.

02:28:57.000 You know, recently, there was, you know, communication about how I think it was the Aviation Intelligence Service of, gosh, was it the Navy?

02:29:08.000 I forget.

02:29:08.000 But they released a patch with a UFO on it.

02:29:10.000 Like a straight up UFO. Yeah, I saw that.

02:29:12.000 And they took it down.

02:29:13.000 Then they took it down like a week later.

02:29:14.000 Did they?

02:29:15.000 Yeah.

02:29:15.000 They took it down?

02:29:16.000 They took it down.

02:29:16.000 They said it was an accident.

02:29:18.000 What?

02:29:18.000 Yeah.

02:29:20.000 How could it be an accident?

02:29:22.000 That's crazy.

02:29:23.000 It was a design.

02:29:24.000 How is a design an accident?

02:29:26.000 It's like a federal website.

02:29:27.000 You don't just accidentally post the wrong GIF on a website like that.

02:29:31.000 I thought it was pretty cool.

02:29:32.000 Jeremy actually made t-shirts out of it.

02:29:35.000 But then, you know, kind of some of the talk was, oh, everyone got too excited about that, and you made the assumption that there's UFOs and they're doing it there.

02:29:42.000 And it's like, well, one, of course, that's the assumption that was made.

02:29:45.000 But two, that's what happens when you just hide information.

02:29:47.000 Right.

02:29:48.000 Like, don't chastise us for not, like, for filling in the gaps, right?

02:29:52.000 Like, that's not our fault.

02:29:53.000 Yeah.

02:29:54.000 I think there's a real fear of admitting that there's something that we can't control that's technologically superior to us that can visit.

02:30:03.000 If I was running the country, I would like to have the ability to say that we're in control of everything.

02:30:11.000 That there's not some super intelligent beings that we don't understand at all that are using technology that's indescribable, and they're visiting us all the time, and some of them we can't even see.

02:30:24.000 We don't even detect them until we lock onto them with superior radar.

02:30:31.000 I mean, that alone, I mean, that puts you in a position of like, well, you're not the boss.

02:30:36.000 They're the boss.

02:30:37.000 You're just the fucking general manager.

02:30:42.000 You know?

02:30:43.000 I mean, I think that's what I would be worried about if I was going to release that information, if I was in a position of power, if I was...

02:30:51.000 An admiral, a general, a president, I would be like, don't tell them.

02:30:55.000 They're just going to freak out.

02:30:57.000 I feel like our society is more adaptable and flexible now.

02:31:00.000 Just with the tools we have and the way we communicate, you know, and the way we can, you know, break down problems and share them digitally.

02:31:07.000 I think now it'd be easier to integrate problems like that because it's easier for people to do their own homework and integrate it.

02:31:13.000 Whereas, you know, 50s and 60s, everyone's just circled up on the TV and just getting pumped with whatever information goes out, right?

02:31:20.000 Yeah, that's true.

02:31:22.000 That's true is that there's a general accepting of access to information that just wasn't the case before the internet.

02:31:30.000 Yeah.

02:31:30.000 And so, yeah, I think we are a more adaptable, you know, society now for better or worse.

02:31:35.000 You know, we have the ability to find our own tribes, right?

02:31:38.000 And to find comfort with others that have the same ideas of us.

02:31:42.000 Whereas, you know, in the past, you're on your own island in a sense.

02:31:46.000 And so it's hard to cultivate those ideas.

02:31:48.000 Well, Ryan, thanks for doing this, man.

02:31:51.000 Thanks for talking about this openly and thanks for coming here and discussing it.

02:31:55.000 It was really fascinating.

02:31:56.000 And I hope we get to do this again someday.

02:31:59.000 Maybe there'll be some new information that comes out and some new revelations.

02:32:04.000 I think we will have some new information to talk about next time.

02:32:06.000 Do you know something?

02:32:08.000 Tell me now.

02:32:10.000 Tell me right now.

02:32:11.000 Would you?

02:32:11.000 Maybe tell me off the air.

02:32:12.000 I won't tell anybody, I promise.

02:32:14.000 I will tell people.

02:32:18.000 I can't keep a secret about that.

02:32:19.000 I can't stop myself.

02:32:20.000 It's too important.

02:32:21.000 But it's really fascinating stuff, man.

02:32:24.000 And I mean, I don't know what to think of it sometimes.

02:32:27.000 Sometimes I think about it too much.

02:32:29.000 One of the things that I got out of talking to Commander David Fravor was that that, I mean, I'm just guessing, but that instance of seeing that thing and watching that thing exhibit Capabilities beyond our imagination that's got to stay with you every day Like that no matter what you do whether whatever you what's on Netflix.

02:32:54.000 I don't know but there's fucking aliens out there, you know Whatever you think is important that has got to be in your consciousness like right there next to you all the time because he's experienced something I think personally that very,

02:33:13.000 very few human beings will ever be able to comprehend what it feels like to watch and to know that that's out there and to know that all of the boundaries that we think of in terms of Just propulsion systems,

02:33:31.000 technology, and whether or not we are actually in contact on a regular basis with something from somewhere else.

02:33:39.000 Imagine having that confidence, that knowledge.

02:33:42.000 Dave's story is incredible.

02:33:44.000 To see the Tic Tac like that and hear him tell it.

02:33:47.000 And the thing that was under the water that the Tic Tac was interacting with.

02:33:52.000 That's fascinating as well, that there might have been some sort of a mothership or something below the surface of the water because of the way the water was reacting.

02:34:01.000 I mean the transmedium aspect of this is really fascinating to me because it makes so much sense that if they could fly through space and they could just – if they have this ability beyond our imagination or maybe in tune with our imagination about propulsion systems and the ability to just move around instantaneously,

02:34:22.000 why wouldn't they just go in the water?

02:34:24.000 If they could do that, why would the water be so complicated for them if space isn't complicated?

02:34:29.000 The difference between space and our atmosphere, you know, it's quite the thickness difference, right?

02:34:35.000 And so that's why things heat up when they come back from space.

02:34:39.000 And really, it's the same problem, right?

02:34:40.000 If you can just do that without that happening, transition seamlessly from space to air, then it should be the same principles essentially go from air to water.

02:34:49.000 Especially if they're doing it with some method that's similar to what Bob Lazar described of just completely manipulating space and time around them.

02:34:57.000 You'd think if you saw that there'd be some interesting detection methods you could do or, you know, like maybe like a redshift, you know, if you were to beam light at it and then record some of it coming back, you could see perhaps how that light shifted due to the gravitational effects.

02:35:11.000 Or if you had a sensor on each side and just like we, you know, bend light around a star or a planet.

02:35:18.000 To see things behind it, perhaps we could, you know, observe a bending if we had sensors on both sides, which sounds, you know, difficult, but when you have, say, maybe a bunch of fighter jets flying around, they're all in data link pumping information together, over a period of time, they're going to be in that position just due to random chance,

02:35:34.000 in a sense.

02:35:34.000 So it's about collecting data over time versus, like, getting it perfectly.

02:35:37.000 Has there ever been any discussion of devising some sort of a plane or some sort of a jet or something that just goes out to try to collect data on these things?

02:35:50.000 Yeah, you know, I mean, the area is not totally closed off.

02:35:55.000 Like, you could take an aircraft over there or a ship over there.

02:35:58.000 But that's also why we don't test equipment out there, because it's just international water, right?

02:36:02.000 So that's why it's like, hey, why would we be testing our own equipment here?

02:36:05.000 Because anyone can take a boat over here and look up and start sniffing around.

02:36:10.000 Yeah.

02:36:13.000 So, yeah, I don't know how to answer that question further.

02:36:17.000 Well, the problem with this is I always love to come to a conclusion.

02:36:21.000 Oh, well, that's this.

02:36:22.000 And that's that.

02:36:23.000 Now we know.

02:36:24.000 The end.

02:36:25.000 There's no the end here.

02:36:27.000 You're right.

02:36:28.000 We haven't finished the story yet.

02:36:29.000 But, you know, just to kind of give you some of my perspective, you know, this conversation is still ongoing.

02:36:35.000 I think that more resources and more energy and more people are getting involved.

02:36:40.000 I see us moving this conversation forward both technologically.

02:36:44.000 I think that we're going to be able to better understand not only where the objects are and how they kind of relate to each other and the locations and some things about that, but I think we'll better understand repulsion.

02:36:55.000 I think we'll better understand Some of the data that has been collected in the recent past so that we can move the conversation forward technologically as a society, as a people and study this from all the different societal angles that it's going to need for us to fully integrate it.

02:37:12.000 I think that in the next few years, we're going to have the proper institutions, both in the government and in the commercial and academic world.

02:37:22.000 In order to, you know, fully integrate this without needing to build new stuff, not exposing the populace to this information and saying, okay, wait for your institutions to catch up, right?

02:37:32.000 I see that landscape being built.

02:37:34.000 And I think it's going to be interesting when, you know, we have the tools within our society to really flesh out what this information means.

02:37:42.000 Well, I, for one, can't wait to meet our alien overlords.

02:37:50.000 I just want to see.

02:37:51.000 I mean, I think this is all emerging and it's really fascinating.

02:37:55.000 I think about it too much.

02:37:56.000 Obviously, look at this place.

02:37:57.000 I got a UFO on the desk.

02:37:58.000 There's one behind me.

02:38:00.000 It's a problem.

02:38:01.000 I'm working, you know, I've left my employer to start to engage in this full time.

02:38:06.000 So I'm right with you, Joe.

02:38:08.000 Wow.

02:38:09.000 So how are you engaging in this full time?

02:38:11.000 More to be revealed next time, but like I said, there's a landscape spinning up, and I think this fall and next winter, I think we'll have some more open conversation about what that short-term future is going to look like.

02:38:22.000 Well, come on back and let us know, please.

02:38:25.000 It'd be my pleasure, Joe.

02:38:26.000 Thank you very much.

02:38:26.000 I really appreciate it.

02:38:27.000 Thank you.

02:38:27.000 Great conversation.

02:38:28.000 All right.

02:38:29.000 Bye, everybody.

The Joe Rogan Experience - October 18, 2022

Joe Rogan Experience #1883 - Ryan Graves

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