The Joe Rogan Experience - December 20, 2022


Joe Rogan Experience #1912 - Steven Rinella


Episode Stats

Length

3 hours and 23 minutes

Words per Minute

171.7511

Word Count

34,917

Sentence Count

3,321

Misogynist Sentences

33

Hate Speech Sentences

32


Summary

On this week's episode of The Joe Rogan Experience, the boys talk about the massive amount of money that has been stolen from Target over the past year and a half, and why it's so bad. They also talk about a new scam that's been going around and why we should all be scared of it. Also, they talk about why Target should be shut down and how much money they've lost in the wake of the Black Friday and Cyber Monday lootings and how we should be mad at them for it. Don't miss it! Logo by Courtney DeKorte. Theme by Mavus White. Music by PSOVOD and tyops. The 500 is a production of Native Creative Podcasts. Our theme song is Come Alone by Suneaters, courtesy of Lotuspool Records. Art: Mackenzie Moore Music: Hayden Coplen Editor: Patrick Muldowney Editor: Will Witwer Music: Joseph McDade Additional Compositions: Jeff Perla Producer: Patrick McElroy Audio Engineer: Ben Koppel Mixing: Matthew Boll Technical Direction: Zac Schmidt Recording Location: Los Angeles, CA Thanks to: John Rocha, Jr. and Brennan Mckinnon Thank you for the Mackenzie, Sr. & Brennan, Sr., Sr. Joe Rogans, Jr., Jr. and Sam, Sr.. Joe and Brennan, LLC. Thank You for the work of Bobby Lord and our thanks to: for producing this episode of & our good friend of the podcast "The Good Life Podcast thanks to The Good Life Project and , . Our first song was written and produced by , and , edited by is written and edited by Jake, with additional editing and produced and edited, , with additional production in collaboration with by & ) (featuring , "The Bad Boys Podcast , produced by Jeff Perlan, and the amazing on , & , our logo is we are , thanks , thank you, in honor of , we hope you enjoy it, & thanks to our good vibes, is , Thank you, Thank you , etc., and thanks


Transcript

00:00:01.000 Joe Rogan Podcast, check it out!
00:00:04.000 The Joe Rogan Experience.
00:00:06.000 Train by day, Joe Rogan Podcast by night, all day.
00:00:15.000 You know, and then when this FTX thing happened, I'm like, of course.
00:00:18.000 Of course, you fucking scumbags.
00:00:20.000 I've become obsessed with that shit, man.
00:00:21.000 Oh my god.
00:00:22.000 I'm already imagining how many people are writing that fucking screenplay right now.
00:00:27.000 Are we up, Brennan?
00:00:29.000 Let's go.
00:00:30.000 We're rolling good.
00:00:31.000 Let's talk about this.
00:00:32.000 Yeah, I'm fascinated by it.
00:00:34.000 I'm fascinated by scammers.
00:00:37.000 I knew a lot of scammers in my pool hall days.
00:00:42.000 I knew a guy that was one of the first guys that ever was involved in credit card fraud back in the early 80s.
00:00:50.000 His name was International Sal.
00:00:52.000 He was a fucking character.
00:00:54.000 Like a real character.
00:00:55.000 Sal?
00:00:56.000 Sal.
00:00:56.000 International Sal.
00:00:57.000 That's what they called him.
00:00:58.000 Because he was like a mob guy, essentially.
00:01:03.000 And what they would do is they would go to department stores.
00:01:07.000 And you know they had those carbons?
00:01:09.000 In the old days with credit cards?
00:01:11.000 Oh yeah, I remember that.
00:01:12.000 They would take those carbons.
00:01:14.000 And someone would sell him the carbons.
00:01:16.000 And then they would print copies of credit cards.
00:01:19.000 And then they would buy a bunch of shit.
00:01:21.000 And then they would sell that shit.
00:01:22.000 And they would come to him with bags of money to the pool hall.
00:01:27.000 That's a good idea.
00:01:28.000 And he would blow it all.
00:01:29.000 He would blow it all.
00:01:31.000 It's like we always talked about it.
00:01:32.000 It's like he had dirty money and he couldn't keep it.
00:01:36.000 He couldn't win.
00:01:39.000 Like, he could not win.
00:01:40.000 Like, if the nine ball was four inches in front of the hole, he would find a way to dog it.
00:01:45.000 Oh, like the Cosmos knew that the money was no good?
00:01:47.000 Yeah, yeah, it was something.
00:01:49.000 It was like, is it in his head?
00:01:51.000 He had the worst case of buck fever I've ever seen in my fucking life.
00:01:57.000 He's got the devil and the angel on his shoulders and the angels give him advice so he loses his money.
00:02:04.000 And he was a good guy.
00:02:05.000 He was a good guy.
00:02:07.000 He just came from a life of crime.
00:02:11.000 But he was a good guy.
00:02:13.000 It's weird.
00:02:14.000 I wonder what his last name was because we were looking up people with our last name and we found a Sal Rinella in Joliet Prison.
00:02:23.000 I liked how much it sounded like salmonella, you know?
00:02:28.000 Yeah, I don't know.
00:02:29.000 He died of cancer a few years back.
00:02:32.000 Actually, a friend of mine's mom who worked in, you know, I guess it's a hospice when they take care of people in their dying days.
00:02:41.000 And he came into there and my friend contacted me.
00:02:44.000 Guess who's in the hospice?
00:02:46.000 It's International Sal.
00:02:47.000 I'm like, oh.
00:02:47.000 No.
00:02:50.000 Sadwin is a good guy.
00:02:51.000 I mean, I say he's a good guy.
00:02:53.000 I obviously did terrible things.
00:02:55.000 Robbed those fucking credit card companies blind.
00:02:58.000 Made millions of dollars.
00:02:59.000 But he was a good guy.
00:03:01.000 Like, he was always friendly.
00:03:03.000 He was always a good guy.
00:03:04.000 I had a friend get her credit card stolen recently, and they bought a bunch of stuff, electronics from Best Buy, and then made a charitable donation.
00:03:17.000 They felt bad and made a charitable donation.
00:03:21.000 It's like feed the children or something.
00:03:25.000 They're like, this will clean it out.
00:03:29.000 I'll sleep like a baby tonight.
00:03:32.000 Some people just do it, but they're like, wow, there's got to be a way to balance this out.
00:03:36.000 Did you hear that Target lost, what was it, Jamie, like $400 million last year from looting?
00:03:44.000 400 million.
00:03:45.000 Really?
00:03:46.000 Yeah, because all these people in the last year or so, during the pandemic, people were, like, stealing shit.
00:03:52.000 You know, it became a thing, like, in some states...
00:03:55.000 I had no idea it was that bad.
00:03:56.000 It's bad.
00:03:56.000 In some states, they've closed down all the Walgreens, they've closed down all these different...
00:04:01.000 Because they made a law where if you steal less than $900 worth of stuff, they can't even arrest you.
00:04:07.000 They don't even do anything about it.
00:04:09.000 So people would just walk in...
00:04:11.000 Have you ever seen those videos?
00:04:12.000 No.
00:04:12.000 Well, I've seen the videos.
00:04:13.000 I didn't know about them being prompted by...
00:04:16.000 I didn't know that that activity being inspired by particular rules as much as just like a breakdown of, you know, I don't know, like a breakdown of desire, like for a while, like a desire to engage with certain kinds of lawbreaking.
00:04:34.000 Yeah.
00:04:34.000 Well, there was that, and then there was also, I think, after the George, during the George Floyd protest, organized retail crime has driven $400 million in extra profit loss this year at Target.
00:04:47.000 That is great.
00:04:48.000 And organized.
00:04:49.000 You know, during the George Floyd protest, there was so much looting.
00:04:55.000 I don't know if you saw the stuff in New York.
00:04:56.000 It was crazy.
00:04:57.000 Oh, for sure, yeah.
00:04:58.000 Where the cops were standing by.
00:04:59.000 They were just standing there watching them smash windows and running to stores.
00:05:03.000 And that was that de Blasio guy, the super leftist mayor of New York, just kind of allowed it all to happen.
00:05:10.000 And it's like it's based apparently on an old theory about rioting where you just let them burn it out of their system.
00:05:17.000 Have a temper tantrum.
00:05:19.000 I think that so much is there's a lot of this isn't just, you know, I didn't make this up, but there's a lot of governance by theory.
00:05:30.000 You know, going on.
00:05:32.000 A lot of people are left to be like, Bahamut, that doesn't make any sense.
00:05:37.000 Well, you got to think who these people are.
00:05:39.000 It's a theory though, right?
00:05:40.000 Who these people are that want to be mayors and want to be governors.
00:05:44.000 They're a bunch of loony people for the most part.
00:05:46.000 There's not a lot of competition.
00:05:48.000 There's not a lot of, like, super rational, really, like, well-educated, super successful in business people that wind up becoming governors and mayors, which is probably what you would need to be.
00:06:01.000 You need to be someone who's, like, really good at organizing business.
00:06:03.000 And there was a guy that was running in New York, and apparently he got really close.
00:06:07.000 He was ahead in the race for a while, but then he wound up losing to some woman who's the new mayor of Los Angeles.
00:06:12.000 Was it Karen Bass?
00:06:14.000 So...
00:06:14.000 I just heard a guy saying that that's the politicians that are going to win now.
00:06:18.000 He was a strategist, a Republican strategist, and he was saying that his prediction was it was going to be like the technocrats.
00:06:27.000 I don't know where he's getting this from, but it made me feel optimistic that people are getting more interested in his view of the midterms is that voters are getting interested in pragmatic problem-solving again.
00:06:43.000 And not ideology.
00:06:45.000 Well, once ideology comes crashing back on you and falls apart and your business collapses, that's what you're seeing with a lot of people.
00:06:53.000 It's just the reality facing them where their ideology is not sustainable.
00:06:59.000 And then they're like, Jesus Christ, I've lost everything here.
00:07:02.000 We've got to get somebody who's some fucking hard-nosed business person.
00:07:05.000 It's going to get everything running correctly.
00:07:07.000 I had an interesting thing happen to me right here in Austin the other day speaking to law enforcement.
00:07:14.000 I was down here for a couple days.
00:07:16.000 It was my daughter's birthday, so my wife and my daughter came down with me, and we spent a couple days just knocking around town.
00:07:21.000 We went down to check out those bats that come out of the Congress Bridge.
00:07:26.000 Oh my God, it's cool.
00:07:27.000 It's wild.
00:07:29.000 We're walking down there, and we're going down the sidewalk, and I become aware of all this honking and yelling and shit at an intersection.
00:07:37.000 And as I'm walking up to a car, and there's a woman honking and yelling, and she's pointing into the car.
00:07:46.000 And I go and realize this guy, I thought he had a heart attack, just keeled over the steering wheel in the intersection.
00:07:55.000 So he had his back window down, like halfway down for whatever reason.
00:08:01.000 And I'm in there, and I got him by the shoulder, and I'm trying to...
00:08:04.000 Shake him awake.
00:08:06.000 And I think he's had a heart attack or died.
00:08:08.000 I don't know what he's got going on.
00:08:09.000 I'm yelling at my wife, call 911. I'm trying to get his door open, but his doors are locked.
00:08:17.000 And I'm trying to reach up to hit the unlock button because the thing's only half open.
00:08:20.000 And me yelling and saying, you alright?
00:08:23.000 You alright?
00:08:23.000 He perks up.
00:08:26.000 And like, takes stock of the situation and just goes off through the green light.
00:08:32.000 So now I feel like I'm like, not complicit, but I feel like it's like become my responsibility that he's gonna, I don't know, he's gonna die, kill somebody.
00:08:41.000 I call 911. My wife had already called 911. She got sick of waiting on hold and gave me the phone.
00:08:46.000 She went in to try to find, she had left my daughter's swimsuit somewhere.
00:08:50.000 She went to try to find my daughter's swimsuit.
00:08:52.000 I waited, waited, waited.
00:08:53.000 She came out.
00:08:54.000 I was still on hold and I was like, ah, he's gone now.
00:08:56.000 It's just someone else's problem.
00:08:58.000 I've never had that happen to me.
00:08:59.000 I'm not like a habitual 911 dialer.
00:09:03.000 911 is apparently in a lot of places.
00:09:08.000 It's not that good anymore.
00:09:10.000 I was shocked.
00:09:13.000 How long did it take?
00:09:14.000 How long was she on hold for?
00:09:16.000 Man, I want to say 10 minutes, but I don't know.
00:09:19.000 I don't want to exact.
00:09:20.000 I wasn't really paying it.
00:09:21.000 I was kind of I wasn't really watching him.
00:09:24.000 I was a little bit preoccupied, but like a long time, you know?
00:09:28.000 God, that's depressing.
00:09:30.000 That's so depressing.
00:09:32.000 There's never been a time in my life where I felt like things have broken down as much as they have over the last three years.
00:09:37.000 Yeah, well, scary.
00:09:38.000 What the fuck?
00:09:40.000 And the thing about things breaking down is, boy, they can break down quick, but building them back up again...
00:09:45.000 That takes a long time.
00:09:47.000 Yeah.
00:09:48.000 That takes a long time.
00:09:49.000 You'll be able to see that play out in Ukraine at some point in time.
00:09:52.000 Yeah, for sure.
00:09:54.000 I mean, those fucking buildings that are destroyed, too.
00:09:57.000 How do they rebuild?
00:09:58.000 They have cities that are just completely leveled.
00:10:00.000 I don't know.
00:10:00.000 How do they even build that back up?
00:10:02.000 In the back of my head, looking at them, I was like, man, how do you, yeah, how do you...
00:10:06.000 Yeah, I don't know.
00:10:07.000 It's decades.
00:10:08.000 Decades and decades and decades and decades.
00:10:10.000 Yeah.
00:10:11.000 It's depressing.
00:10:13.000 And, you know, our only hope is that it doesn't get worse.
00:10:16.000 That's your only hope at this point in time.
00:10:18.000 It's just like somehow or another it doesn't continue to decelerate or accelerate rather.
00:10:23.000 Mm-hmm.
00:10:26.000 I'm reading a terrible book about this too.
00:10:28.000 What is this book?
00:10:29.000 I'm in the middle of this book called The Kill Chain.
00:10:31.000 It's all about how China has a technological superiority over America because our systems don't communicate with each other and we don't have machine learning with all our military systems and how far behind they are in terms of what's available and what they have available in terms of like Artificial.
00:10:53.000 They're comparing right now, like, computers now that can beat people in the game Go, which I don't really understand, but apparently it's very sophisticated.
00:11:01.000 And also Starcraft 2, which is a very complicated game, and now computers are just wiping out the best players in the world and not making any mistakes.
00:11:10.000 And how that kind of computer learning is being applied in China, but it's not being applied in America.
00:11:17.000 And that all of our systems are kind of antiquated in that we update hardware first and then software.
00:11:23.000 So we don't have...
00:11:25.000 You know how your phone is constantly upgrading?
00:11:27.000 They're comparing that.
00:11:29.000 When they learn new things and they find exploits and they patch them up, you get an update on your phone.
00:11:35.000 They don't have that.
00:11:37.000 So it's like they're really fucked in terms of also the military branch's ability to communicate with other military branches.
00:11:45.000 They essentially have to call each other.
00:11:46.000 It's like, it's not good.
00:11:48.000 What's the book?
00:11:49.000 It's called The Kill Chain.
00:11:51.000 It's not good.
00:11:53.000 The Kill Chain refers to systems, like that these systems have to work in conjunction with each other in order to be successful.
00:12:01.000 Sure, yeah.
00:12:01.000 And that this thesis of this book is that it's not, they don't work together at all.
00:12:08.000 That it's very bad.
00:12:09.000 And then if we do wind up in some sort of a real large international conflict, we're kind of fucked.
00:12:15.000 It's very depressing in how China has been working towards this goal for a long time.
00:12:23.000 And they have the advantage of their government completely controls all of their businesses.
00:12:28.000 So the businesses only work within the interest of the Chinese government.
00:12:32.000 Yeah.
00:12:34.000 More depression.
00:12:35.000 No, it sounds like I'm reading a book called Rising Wolf, The White Blackfoot.
00:12:40.000 What is that?
00:12:42.000 It's a book about this kid in the 1700s that came out with the Hudson Bay Company up into the vicinity of Calgary and then was assigned out to the Blackfeet.
00:13:03.000 And the Blackfeet took him south.
00:13:07.000 And he just wrote his chronicles, spending a bunch of time with the Blackfeet.
00:13:11.000 Oh, wow.
00:13:11.000 That's fascinating, dude.
00:13:12.000 And before I read it, I contacted our mutual friend Dan Flores to see if he was on the up and up.
00:13:17.000 Because I've read historic accounts that later Dan would be like, eh, that guy played a little fast and loose with the...
00:13:29.000 We're good to go.
00:13:55.000 Really?
00:13:56.000 Ever.
00:13:56.000 I don't think I ever have.
00:13:58.000 Only about the past.
00:13:59.000 They don't know.
00:14:00.000 I mean, it's all speculation.
00:14:01.000 A non-fiction book about the future is like, it could be proved completely full of shit in just a couple of years.
00:14:07.000 Yeah, it probably feels pretty dicey writing them books.
00:14:10.000 Yeah, by the time you publish it, there's probably something that comes out that completely disproves your whole idea.
00:14:15.000 Yeah.
00:14:16.000 No, I don't know.
00:14:17.000 I find more comfort.
00:14:19.000 But I don't know if I read for comfort.
00:14:21.000 But yeah, I've never read a book about what you're looking at.
00:14:27.000 I just like books about shit that already happened.
00:14:30.000 Like after an election, I like reading people.
00:14:33.000 After an election, I like reading books about where people analyze what happened.
00:14:39.000 I would never read a book that came out right now that was telling me what was going to happen at the next election.
00:14:45.000 Right, right.
00:14:46.000 How the fuck could they know?
00:14:47.000 Yeah, so it's like once it all happens, I like to look at it.
00:14:51.000 The elections are fascinating to me because I don't particularly have an opinion about election fraud, but I do have an opinion on fraud, and it always exists.
00:15:01.000 There's always been people that are full of shit that are manipulating things and saying that they're not.
00:15:05.000 We're finding this out now with Twitter now that Elon Musk purchased Twitter and he's finding that, you know, they literally had FBI people embedded in Twitter that were holding back information from him.
00:15:17.000 Like there was a guy that he fired that was an FBI guy that worked for the FBI at one point in time and now was one of the head guys at Twitter.
00:15:27.000 And was withholding information from him while he was trying to release information about allegedly – I should say allegedly so I don't get in trouble here with this – but what he was saying essentially is this person was a bottleneck.
00:15:42.000 To releasing this data.
00:15:44.000 They were trying to find out, like, why did President Trump get banned?
00:15:48.000 You know, what was going on in terms of shadow banning conservative people and how much coordination was going on inside the company to try to suppress certain ideologies and magnify other ones.
00:16:00.000 It's pretty stunning.
00:16:03.000 I'm curious how much of that stuff's in there, how hard it is to find, and how much people were just being more discreet with text messages and phone calls.
00:16:13.000 Yeah, there's probably a lot of that.
00:16:15.000 But, you know, I think with corporations, they tend to do things on Slack.
00:16:20.000 You know, they have an internal messaging system.
00:16:23.000 Oh, yeah, I know Slack, yeah.
00:16:23.000 I don't use it, but I know about it.
00:16:25.000 I think it's all recorded, unfortunately.
00:16:28.000 I'm the only person in my company that doesn't use Slack.
00:16:31.000 Drives everybody crazy.
00:16:33.000 I feel like there's so many ways to get a hold of me.
00:16:35.000 I need a fourth one.
00:16:37.000 You email me, you call me, you text me, now I've got to have another one.
00:16:41.000 Knock on your door.
00:16:42.000 I wouldn't count that.
00:16:45.000 Yeah.
00:16:46.000 It's like, holy shit, man.
00:16:47.000 If I ever get to the point where this podcast has slack, I'm going to sell it.
00:16:50.000 You and Jamie can slack all day?
00:16:52.000 I'm going to sell it to AI. Because they did an AI interview with me and Steve Jobs.
00:16:59.000 I never met Steve Jobs.
00:17:00.000 So they put together a podcast with me and Steve Jobs.
00:17:03.000 Oh, yeah.
00:17:04.000 I heard about that.
00:17:05.000 It's fucking wild.
00:17:06.000 Because you would listen to it and you would believe it's true.
00:17:09.000 Well, it's too bad that FTX collapsed, because he was going to use his money to battle AI. He wanted to, you know, like his whole deal, the, what's it called, effective altruism?
00:17:17.000 Yeah.
00:17:17.000 Part of his crusade, when he got to dishing out the, you know, he was going to get around to dishing out the billions of dollars to charity, and he was going to battle pandemics and AI. Interesting.
00:17:27.000 Mm-hmm.
00:17:28.000 So now that funding dried up.
00:17:31.000 Whew.
00:17:32.000 I guess AI is coming for us after all.
00:17:34.000 The funding of pandemics, the issue with that is that they fund research.
00:17:38.000 And some of that research is gain-of-function research.
00:17:40.000 And that's what they think led us into this whole fucking thing in the first place.
00:17:45.000 And, you know, the government...
00:17:46.000 Well, Fauci most certainly didn't tell the truth about it.
00:17:50.000 And that's why Elon made a tweet yesterday that his pronouns are Prosecute Fauci.
00:17:55.000 And everybody's going nuts.
00:17:56.000 Well, I saw...
00:17:57.000 I don't...
00:17:57.000 You know, I don't...
00:17:58.000 It's funny.
00:18:00.000 I can follow his...
00:18:03.000 We're good to go.
00:18:27.000 Yeah.
00:18:27.000 It'd be great to have that be your reality.
00:18:31.000 For him?
00:18:31.000 Just anybody.
00:18:32.000 If I could be like, hey, you know, here's the thing I think.
00:18:35.000 And then someone would translate it into this really well-thought article with pros and cons and quotes and shit.
00:18:42.000 You know what I mean?
00:18:43.000 It's like an amazing machine.
00:18:45.000 So I'm very much in tune with everything he tweets without ever reading the tweets.
00:18:51.000 You know this idea that there's an object in its shadow?
00:18:57.000 His tweets are an object, but they make a shadow.
00:19:01.000 Do you follow me?
00:19:02.000 And I'm just looking at the shadow all the time.
00:19:06.000 It's an incredible power to have.
00:19:09.000 It's also an industry, right?
00:19:10.000 Because these people need things to write about.
00:19:12.000 And all you have to do is just...
00:19:14.000 You always have resource.
00:19:16.000 You just go to his shit and immediately you can write a story.
00:19:20.000 Like, if you don't know, what am I going to write about today?
00:19:22.000 Ukraine is kind of...
00:19:23.000 Same old, same old.
00:19:24.000 I need something juicy.
00:19:26.000 I've had that happen a couple times, and I had it happen recently where I went duck hunting with Co Wetzel, who's a musician.
00:19:35.000 And so I had a thing on Instagram where I was with Co, and he had a thing on Instagram.
00:19:40.000 And then the next day we saw a big article about our...
00:19:43.000 It was an article about our having hunted as though there was someone that was there.
00:19:50.000 It was like a reported piece based off...
00:19:54.000 Pictures.
00:19:56.000 And the captions.
00:19:57.000 Whoa.
00:19:58.000 And they wrote like a reported piece.
00:19:59.000 I mean, this has happened to you ten times a day.
00:20:01.000 Oh, yeah, it happens a lot.
00:20:03.000 Yeah, I hear about things and I don't read anything about me, but I hear about things from other people.
00:20:10.000 Like, what's going on with that thing?
00:20:11.000 You know, what are you talking about?
00:20:13.000 Like, yeah, I read an article that, you know, people are upset because of this and that.
00:20:17.000 I'm like, oh.
00:20:17.000 I'm a sucker for Joe Rogan stories.
00:20:19.000 Yeah.
00:20:22.000 And because I know you people send them to me.
00:20:24.000 It's so strange.
00:20:26.000 It's a strange, strange time.
00:20:28.000 Oh, I feel bad.
00:20:29.000 I don't know.
00:20:29.000 Maybe that's not the word, man.
00:20:32.000 I feel bad.
00:20:34.000 Is it bad?
00:20:35.000 I don't know.
00:20:35.000 Maybe I feel bad for you the way that shit happens.
00:20:38.000 Because you kind of want to, you know, that shit will happen and I'll kind of, I don't know who to tell, you know.
00:20:43.000 You kind of want to be like, man, you got it all wrong, man.
00:20:48.000 But you don't know who to talk to.
00:20:50.000 Well...
00:20:50.000 It's weird because on one hand, it strengthens the group of people that know me and know the podcast and listen to the podcast.
00:20:58.000 But you get all these people that just get like a soundbite or get an article or the title of the article.
00:21:04.000 Look, I'm guilty of that.
00:21:05.000 I read titles of articles and then that's...
00:21:07.000 I send them to my wife all the time.
00:21:09.000 She's like, did you read it?
00:21:10.000 I go, no.
00:21:10.000 She goes, that's not really what it's all about.
00:21:12.000 I'm like, yeah, but the title's fucking juicy.
00:21:14.000 Yeah, yeah.
00:21:15.000 That's what goes on today.
00:21:18.000 I was surprised by you a couple times that you don't like to even...
00:21:26.000 It's a little bit fatalistic on your part.
00:21:28.000 You don't even want to participate in journalism about you.
00:21:32.000 That's fatalistic?
00:21:34.000 Yeah, because you could...
00:21:35.000 Do you know what I mean?
00:21:36.000 Even if you could get that one little...
00:21:43.000 Quote.
00:21:43.000 It's not worth it.
00:21:44.000 Yeah, but you don't even...
00:21:46.000 No.
00:21:47.000 Well, first of all, for your mental health, it's not good.
00:21:49.000 It's not good to think about yourself.
00:21:51.000 I don't think that's very healthy.
00:21:52.000 Certainly, it's not good to think about other people's opinions of yourself.
00:21:55.000 I think that you...
00:21:57.000 Then you're farming off your own opinions to other folks and letting them decide.
00:22:03.000 Yeah, but to have a...
00:22:04.000 And I'll use the word When I use the word credentialed, I don't mean flawless, but I mean like a somewhat vetted news organization.
00:22:15.000 Okay.
00:22:17.000 Even the New York Times is sketchy today.
00:22:20.000 It is.
00:22:21.000 Everybody is.
00:22:21.000 Everybody's sketchy.
00:22:23.000 Let me take a break from my advice.
00:22:26.000 Let me take a break from the advice I'm trying to give you to tell the story I heard the other day on NPR. I was arguing with Giannis one day about...
00:22:37.000 We're talking about something, and he was trying to argue that, like, of bias, there's like the least amount of bias here, there, wherever, right?
00:22:45.000 And he had cited NPR as being, he felt, lower on bias than many others.
00:22:49.000 But the other day I heard a story where they're talking about climate change activists destroying famous works of art.
00:23:00.000 And they sort of gave a soft condemnation of the practice, but then said, it just goes to show how artwork remains relevant and part of the dialogue.
00:23:14.000 Oh, God.
00:23:15.000 And I was like, I'm trying to imagine if QAnon people were sabotaging major works of art, what the coverage would be like.
00:23:22.000 Yes, that's a good point.
00:23:24.000 Do you know what I'm saying?
00:23:25.000 Yes.
00:23:25.000 Yeah.
00:23:26.000 And it was just, I don't even think they can see it.
00:23:29.000 Well, the problem is QAnon...
00:23:30.000 They're like, hold on, I support climate change activists, therefore I have to act lukewarm-ish on the morality of destroying...
00:23:42.000 Works of international significance.
00:23:46.000 Right?
00:23:46.000 I'm like, you would never do that if it was a different people trashing these works.
00:23:50.000 No, no, never.
00:23:51.000 When the Taliban blew up the Buddha, were they like, well, you know, it just goes to show how important that artwork is.
00:23:59.000 Never.
00:24:00.000 Do you know what I'm saying?
00:24:02.000 There's no way they would have done it.
00:24:03.000 Right.
00:24:04.000 QAnon may be not the best example.
00:24:06.000 No, it's a shitty example.
00:24:07.000 It's so easily disproven.
00:24:08.000 Yeah, it's a shitty example.
00:24:09.000 But maybe more like tea party people.
00:24:12.000 Sure.
00:24:12.000 Tea party people.
00:24:13.000 Pro-life individuals.
00:24:14.000 Right-wing ideology.
00:24:15.000 Yeah, like pro-life individuals destroying works of art.
00:24:19.000 They would not, on NPR, go like, eh!
00:24:22.000 In defense of those people that are doing that, they're not really destroying the works of art.
00:24:28.000 They're throwing soup at glass.
00:24:31.000 Because all those works of art are protected.
00:24:34.000 Yeah, chanting themselves.
00:24:36.000 They describe some item as gunk.
00:24:39.000 I don't know what that was.
00:24:40.000 I thought that was shoddy journalism.
00:24:42.000 Oh, back to my advice, though.
00:24:43.000 Okay.
00:24:45.000 So...
00:24:48.000 I feel like...
00:24:49.000 I know you know about it.
00:24:52.000 There was a piece in...
00:24:53.000 I don't know if it was the New York Times or New York Times Magazine about you.
00:24:56.000 How long ago?
00:24:57.000 I don't know.
00:24:58.000 Someone had asked me to comment.
00:24:59.000 I said, do I... You're like, I'm not talking to him.
00:25:02.000 I'm not going anywhere near it.
00:25:03.000 That one wasn't that bad.
00:25:04.000 I heard about that one.
00:25:04.000 No, but why did you not get in there?
00:25:06.000 Why would I? I put out enough content.
00:25:10.000 People can form their own opinions.
00:25:12.000 Isn't that funny though?
00:25:13.000 No one pays attention to all the content you put out.
00:25:15.000 Not that no one does, but you know what I'm saying?
00:25:17.000 It'd be like, you talk for, I don't know, how many hours a week do you talk?
00:25:20.000 A lot.
00:25:21.000 Yeah.
00:25:22.000 Yeah.
00:25:22.000 But then someone will talk for you and it gets a lot of gravity.
00:25:26.000 It doesn't get as much gravity as each episode.
00:25:28.000 Probably not.
00:25:28.000 No.
00:25:29.000 Not even close.
00:25:29.000 No, you're right.
00:25:30.000 You're right.
00:25:30.000 No, I can see your point.
00:25:31.000 I can see your point.
00:25:32.000 The amount of people that listen to each episode dwarfs everything that's ever been written about me, ever, for sure.
00:25:38.000 Hmm.
00:25:39.000 So, there's that.
00:25:40.000 I'm not saying, hmm, like, that's a problem.
00:25:42.000 I mean, sure, rationally, I understand the numbers, but I'm saying, hmm, like, that's an interesting approach.
00:25:48.000 I don't think you can continually engage.
00:25:51.000 Again, I don't think you should engage yourself.
00:25:52.000 You can't have a hit piece.
00:25:53.000 No one's going to make a hit piece on you that's going to reach more eyeballs than you.
00:25:58.000 Yeah.
00:25:59.000 Well, if I was just like an actor on a show, that would be a real problem if someone makes a hit piece about you.
00:26:07.000 Because you lose your position on the show.
00:26:08.000 Yeah, you lose your position on the show for sure.
00:26:10.000 And also you don't have an outlet to explain yourself other than those other media outlets and you're subject to their bias.
00:26:16.000 Yeah.
00:26:18.000 But this is a weird—we're in outrage culture.
00:26:22.000 We're in a culture of clicks and clickbait, and everybody just wants things to be outrageous and incite anger.
00:26:31.000 And that's also accentuated by the algorithm of social media, which is a real problem.
00:26:36.000 I don't know if you ever watched that documentary, The Social Dilemma.
00:26:39.000 Oh, yeah.
00:26:39.000 Fucking terrifying.
00:26:41.000 Yeah.
00:26:41.000 Oh, no, no, no, no.
00:26:42.000 I didn't watch that.
00:26:43.000 I watched the one, Social Network, sorry.
00:26:46.000 Wrong couple decades.
00:26:48.000 Wrong couple decades.
00:26:50.000 No, but I still have that actor.
00:26:51.000 Whenever I hear Mark Zuckerberg, I always think of the actor, not Mark Zuckerberg.
00:26:56.000 I didn't ask him what he thought about that when I had him in here.
00:26:59.000 I haven't watched Social Dilemma.
00:27:02.000 He's a reasonable person.
00:27:04.000 I saw your head in mind, but I haven't listened to that.
00:27:05.000 He's a very reasonable guy.
00:27:06.000 He's a very nice guy.
00:27:07.000 You talk to him outside of it.
00:27:09.000 Again, didn't want that.
00:27:12.000 Didn't try to become that person.
00:27:14.000 Was trying to make a social media application for people in college where they could write stuff about themselves.
00:27:22.000 No, wasn't it like...
00:27:24.000 I don't know.
00:27:25.000 Wasn't it like a dating thing or something?
00:27:26.000 Well, I can't...
00:27:28.000 I'm too...
00:27:28.000 I'm not...
00:27:32.000 I don't know.
00:27:32.000 I haven't seen the movie.
00:27:33.000 Definitely didn't think.
00:27:34.000 I know there was some part of that shit that was like hot or not.
00:27:37.000 Remember that?
00:27:38.000 Were you like upped or downed?
00:27:40.000 I didn't watch the movie.
00:27:41.000 Oh, okay.
00:27:42.000 Well, I mean in the history of the thing.
00:27:44.000 There's some part of it where it was like a, like I said, I shouldn't, because there's literally millions of people that know this history better than me, so I'm going to back out on saying what I'm going to say because I'm probably fucked up about it.
00:27:56.000 I think all he was trying to do is make like a MySpace type deal.
00:28:00.000 You know, make some sort of innocuous social media thing.
00:28:06.000 And no one knew that social media would ever become what it is now.
00:28:10.000 So now you got this guy that's in charge of this company that literally affects the way world politics works.
00:28:18.000 They can overthrow governments with propaganda using his platform.
00:28:24.000 And in some countries when you buy a phone, that's like the thing that comes preloaded on your phone.
00:28:29.000 And like they think of internet as Facebook.
00:28:32.000 Like that's what they use for messaging.
00:28:34.000 That's what they use for everything.
00:28:37.000 And it's billions and billions of people.
00:28:40.000 And imagine, like, being that guy.
00:28:44.000 And, you know, he's constantly attacked, too.
00:28:46.000 Everything that he says gets scrutinized and analyzed and put under a microscope.
00:28:50.000 And that's got to be a very bizarre way to live as well.
00:28:54.000 Oh, yeah.
00:28:56.000 I'd crawl into a deep, dark hole.
00:28:57.000 Because he didn't ask for that.
00:28:59.000 That's not what he was trying to do.
00:29:02.000 You know, and this podcast, I didn't try to make it this big.
00:29:06.000 I just kept doing it.
00:29:08.000 Yeah.
00:29:08.000 That's all I did.
00:29:12.000 I can't remember if I ever asked you about this or not, but I think a thing that happens, and I puzzle over it, is the idea that if...
00:29:20.000 No, I did ask you about this once.
00:29:22.000 The idea that as more people listen to you, you have more of a responsibility to reflect...
00:29:30.000 As more people listen to you, you have more responsibility to not be whimsical or goofy or say crazy shit just to stir the pot.
00:29:41.000 I never say crazy shit just to stir the pot.
00:29:44.000 I'd say it for fun.
00:29:47.000 Like if there's comedians in here and we're talking shit, we say crazy shit just for fun.
00:29:52.000 Like there's this podcast I do called Protect Our Parks.
00:29:55.000 And it's a joke name because Ari, one of the guys that I do it with, Ari Shafir, there was a park in New York City that they were going to level.
00:30:03.000 And now it's like fucking condos.
00:30:05.000 They're going to put a prison there and a bunch of shit.
00:30:07.000 And he's like, it's a fucking great park.
00:30:09.000 This is bullshit.
00:30:10.000 You know, like, so do what you can to try to.
00:30:12.000 And so we were ragging on him.
00:30:14.000 Like, and he's saying, Ari, we got to protect.
00:30:16.000 Protect this park, Ari.
00:30:19.000 Obviously, they did level it, so the name of the podcast became Protect Our Parks, just for fun.
00:30:25.000 But that is the most ridiculous podcast ever.
00:30:28.000 Just four of us, we're always high and drunk, and we're talking crazy shit and just talking over each other, and it's just really rowdy and nuts, but there's no responsibility.
00:30:39.000 It's not responsible at all.
00:30:41.000 It's a completely irresponsible podcast.
00:30:44.000 But it's not on purpose.
00:30:45.000 Like, it's not like we're doing it to try to stir people up.
00:30:48.000 We're just doing it to talk shit and have fun.
00:30:50.000 That's the benefit of being a comedian, though.
00:30:53.000 Like, you always have that.
00:30:55.000 Like, if you say something outrageous, it's like, it's not really what you mean.
00:30:59.000 You're just talking shit, just having fun.
00:31:01.000 Yeah.
00:31:02.000 But people will – this is a weird time where people will pretend that talking shit is not a thing, that everything you say cannot be in jest at all.
00:31:10.000 And if you take it and put it in a quote in an article, like joking around opinions could be completely misconstrued.
00:31:19.000 What's your take on, I just read a piece the other day in the journal, it was about an executive at Apple, an Apple executive who's a car enthusiast.
00:31:30.000 Yeah, I know that.
00:31:30.000 Have you already talked about this?
00:31:31.000 No, no, we haven't, but yeah.
00:31:33.000 So there's a TikToker whose shtick is that he'll catch people in luxury cars, I gather, noteworthy cars, and his thing is like, hey, what do you do for a living?
00:31:46.000 He approaches an Apple executive.
00:31:48.000 The detail that matters to me the most is that the guy's with his wife.
00:31:51.000 He's not at a work function and he's with his wife, which totally changes how he answers.
00:31:57.000 He's with his wife and he decides to quote a movie that's becoming increasingly obscure as the years go by, which is the movie Arthur.
00:32:08.000 Which is like a comedy about a drunk...
00:32:09.000 Who is that?
00:32:10.000 Dudley Moore.
00:32:11.000 Okay, Dudley Moore.
00:32:11.000 1981. Okay.
00:32:13.000 And he says...
00:32:13.000 I think it was 81. Someone says, what do you do for a living?
00:32:15.000 And he said he's trying to be funny and he quotes Arthur...
00:32:18.000 Let's play it.
00:32:19.000 Oh, here we go.
00:32:20.000 That was awesome.
00:32:21.000 What do you do for a living?
00:32:23.000 I race cars, play golf, and fondle big-breasted women.
00:32:27.000 But I take weekends and major holidays off.
00:32:29.000 Oh, God!
00:32:30.000 That is quite the career.
00:32:32.000 I'm looking to get into that.
00:32:33.000 His wife is laughing.
00:32:34.000 If you're interested, I've got a hell of a dental plan.
00:32:36.000 Oh, God!
00:32:37.000 You do it all.
00:32:38.000 You do it all.
00:32:38.000 And you participate in this activity.
00:32:43.000 His wife is laughing hilariously.
00:32:45.000 She thinks it's funny.
00:32:46.000 That guy's job ain't no more.
00:32:47.000 Yeah, they fired him for that.
00:32:49.000 I was trying to explain it to my wife the other day.
00:32:53.000 You know what, though?
00:32:54.000 I was trying to explain it to her in the aftermath of my 911 incident here in Austin, so I didn't get her full take on it.
00:33:02.000 Apple exec was fired after being caught on video joking about fondling big-breasted women, said he stayed up all night trying to get the TikTok down before it went viral.
00:33:11.000 Imagine being that TikTok dude and having that dude getting a hold of you to say, take it down.
00:33:17.000 You're like in a real...
00:33:20.000 That might be you really feeling like you had a lot of sway for that moment.
00:33:25.000 He was in the company for 22 years.
00:33:28.000 22 years and they fired him for quoting a movie.
00:33:33.000 A joke.
00:33:34.000 A joke quoting a movie, which his wife, who was right next to him, thought it was hilarious.
00:33:38.000 Yeah, it's a tough one, man.
00:33:40.000 This is a fucking bizarre time of recreational outrage.
00:33:44.000 The idea that someone would be actually outraged at him quoting that movie in front of his wife.
00:33:49.000 Like, that is crazy.
00:33:51.000 And that you could lose your job for that.
00:33:53.000 It almost makes me want to not buy an Apple phone.
00:33:55.000 It really does.
00:33:57.000 It just makes me so angry that you do something so stupid.
00:34:00.000 You know, we're in the strangest of strange times when it comes to that shit.
00:34:06.000 Because the purity test is impossible for everyone, especially when you catch someone like that.
00:34:11.000 No one's passing these purity tests.
00:34:14.000 You catch a kid probably just fucking around, having a great time, driving this beautiful car at a car event, right?
00:34:21.000 Wasn't it a car event?
00:34:22.000 Just trying to have fun.
00:34:23.000 Being silly.
00:34:26.000 Bye.
00:34:26.000 Yeah.
00:34:27.000 Yeah, that's your public take on breasts.
00:34:30.000 Forever.
00:34:31.000 I know.
00:34:31.000 I read that, and I was like, oh, that's a really difficult one.
00:34:34.000 That's a really difficult one.
00:34:37.000 It's horrible.
00:34:37.000 And the thing is, the company would face backlash if they didn't do that, but how much?
00:34:44.000 And for how long?
00:34:46.000 Like, you know, like say, although we don't condone it, the guy could say, I'm sorry, I was just quoting a movie.
00:34:52.000 I thought it was funny.
00:34:53.000 I realized it was offensive.
00:34:55.000 My apologies.
00:34:56.000 And I'm going to donate all this money to big-breasted women who have back problems.
00:35:00.000 Sure, yeah.
00:35:01.000 But the fact that they face zero backlash for firing that guy...
00:35:08.000 That's disturbing.
00:35:10.000 Because they're incentivized to make the worst choice.
00:35:13.000 The worst choice is to fire this guy for something silly.
00:35:16.000 Just a joke.
00:35:18.000 Yeah, the tonality of the thing I read was, I don't know, man, I read between the lines a little bit of eye roll, but it wasn't condemnation.
00:35:28.000 Condemnation is appropriate for that.
00:35:30.000 Not for him, but for the company.
00:35:31.000 No, that's what I mean.
00:35:31.000 It was a little bit of like, wow.
00:35:34.000 I mean, because like I said, it pointed out like his wife, you know, I don't know why it changes so much for me that his wife was there, but it changes a lot for me.
00:35:40.000 It does, because if he was just some playboy, some guy who's just working at Apple, making millions and being, you know, being a jerk.
00:35:48.000 But even then, it's not being a jerk.
00:35:50.000 He's quoting a movie and his wife thought it was hilarious.
00:35:53.000 She's right next to him.
00:35:54.000 She thinks it's so funny.
00:35:56.000 And he's an older guy, so he remembers Arthur.
00:35:58.000 I remember that quote.
00:36:01.000 See if you can find the quote from Arthur.
00:36:03.000 This was reported in September when it happened?
00:36:06.000 The video was recorded in August.
00:36:09.000 The incident, I suppose, happened in September.
00:36:11.000 Why did I just read about it the other day?
00:36:13.000 I know these articles I'm seeing were just posted this past week.
00:36:16.000 I'm wondering why it's going around again now.
00:36:18.000 It seems the timing is a little weird.
00:36:20.000 Well, he's been talking about it now.
00:36:22.000 Oh, that might be why.
00:36:23.000 He sat for a portrait in the journal article.
00:36:28.000 So he's going on like a press run about it.
00:36:29.000 Well, you know, he might be fixing to take some legal...
00:36:32.000 He probably is, and justifiably so.
00:36:36.000 I mean, is that...
00:36:38.000 Come on.
00:36:39.000 But you know what, man?
00:36:40.000 We're also doing...
00:36:41.000 You know what?
00:36:42.000 We're doing the...
00:36:46.000 Let me re-approach this.
00:36:47.000 You might remember that you recently had Bill Maher on your show, and I listened to that with great interest, and he was talking about, you know, he's historically regarded as a very noteworthy liberal,
00:37:03.000 but he was expressing that the left gives him so much good material.
00:37:10.000 And his kind of crusade against present culture and certain things around free speech and all that.
00:37:19.000 And that conversation, this one we're having right now, got me to thinking that you almost can fall into the same trap.
00:37:27.000 And I don't even know how it's different.
00:37:29.000 The outrage...
00:37:31.000 Recreational outrage.
00:37:32.000 At what point is the recreational outrage about this stuff become its own form of recreational outrage?
00:37:38.000 Like, you know, you hear it, you hear crazy stuff from any spectrum, right?
00:37:44.000 You hear crazy stuff and you're like, that's...
00:37:48.000 This has gone too far.
00:37:50.000 You're like, jeez, I'm just like, you know?
00:37:51.000 Yeah.
00:37:52.000 I'm sort of like becoming everybody else.
00:37:54.000 Yeah.
00:37:54.000 Because I sit around being like, holy cow, really?
00:37:56.000 With his wife?
00:37:58.000 I wonder where it goes.
00:37:59.000 That's the thing.
00:38:00.000 Because it seems to be accelerating.
00:38:02.000 Like, if that guy did that 10 years ago, no one would bat an eye.
00:38:06.000 Yeah.
00:38:06.000 But now it's outrageous.
00:38:09.000 Listen, man.
00:38:10.000 Grounds for firing.
00:38:11.000 It definitely...
00:38:12.000 I mean...
00:38:14.000 I have definitely, not in a negative way, I don't think, I have definitely taken note of shit that I grew up saying in the atmosphere I grew up,
00:38:31.000 like very normal things to say.
00:38:33.000 I have definitely taken note that It's hurtful to some people.
00:38:41.000 It's hurtful to people.
00:38:42.000 And I don't get that much out of saying it.
00:38:44.000 I'm not like sacrificing something.
00:38:46.000 Right.
00:38:47.000 Growing up, I mean, it's just...
00:38:52.000 You could sit around all day and talk about how it didn't mean anything.
00:38:59.000 Whatever.
00:39:01.000 Just like stupid shit you'd say in junior high.
00:39:04.000 And now, over the time that's gone on, I've realized, I don't know why I didn't think about saying that.
00:39:11.000 I definitely don't need to say that.
00:39:13.000 It's not what I think.
00:39:14.000 It's not how I feel.
00:39:15.000 I'll happily expunge that from the old vocabulary.
00:39:19.000 Right.
00:39:19.000 Right.
00:39:20.000 I mean, it just happens.
00:39:21.000 Yeah, it just happens.
00:39:23.000 And that sort of self-censorship and the idea of being a more empathetic person is a good thing, right?
00:39:32.000 But...
00:39:33.000 As long as it's reasonable.
00:39:35.000 But the thing is, the problem with that kind of stuff is it continues to go in the same direction where more and more things become forbidden and toxic to the point where, you know, the Elon Musk joking around about my pronouns are prosecute Fauci.
00:39:52.000 Jimmy Kimmel made a tweet back to him.
00:39:55.000 He said, your pronouns are ass and hole.
00:39:58.000 Which is pretty funny.
00:40:00.000 Did he really?
00:40:02.000 Yes.
00:40:02.000 And so then I read that and there was people saying, please don't joke about pronouns.
00:40:07.000 It's transphobic to joke about pronouns.
00:40:09.000 So they were chiding him for participating in a joke about pronouns.
00:40:14.000 So Jimmy Kimmel was doing it?
00:40:17.000 Oh yeah, he was doing it too.
00:40:19.000 Yeah, he was doing it, too.
00:40:20.000 No, he was being accused of joking about it, too.
00:40:22.000 So they were upset at him, even though he was attacking the appropriate person.
00:40:27.000 He was doing it in a manner which is also construed as being transphobic.
00:40:31.000 They were saying that his tweet is transphobic.
00:40:34.000 In that case, do you think that's him or a writer?
00:40:37.000 Can't you tell?
00:40:38.000 Jimmy Kimmel?
00:40:39.000 Yeah.
00:40:39.000 No, it's him, for sure.
00:40:40.000 Okay.
00:40:40.000 Yeah, definitely.
00:40:41.000 That's a good one.
00:40:42.000 He's a comic.
00:40:42.000 Yeah, that's a good one.
00:40:43.000 I mean, he used to host The Man Show.
00:40:45.000 I mean, he's done some pretty outrageous shit back in the day.
00:40:49.000 Yeah.
00:40:50.000 You know, for he-he's and ha-ha's.
00:40:52.000 No, that's a good joke on top of a good joke.
00:40:55.000 Yeah, it's a good joke.
00:40:57.000 Funny thing to say.
00:40:58.000 He's had a real problem with Elon from the beginning of this thing.
00:41:02.000 But it's like he's in this leftist thought bubble.
00:41:05.000 He's in the most leftist thought bubble available, which is Hollywood.
00:41:09.000 And I think also...
00:41:13.000 Famously, there's some videos of him in blackface and those came out and he had to apologize for them and I think he took that hit and really doubled down in the other direction.
00:41:23.000 I mean, that's just speculation.
00:41:25.000 But he, you know, now is a guy that It goes after people like Elon Musk.
00:41:32.000 Yeah.
00:41:33.000 Which is, you know, Elon is thought of as being, because he's willing to put people on with uncomfortable opinions and he's like releasing people that were banned from Twitter.
00:41:47.000 Because of things that they had said.
00:41:49.000 He's like, as long as you haven't done anything illegal, I'll let you back on.
00:41:52.000 So he's doing a lot of that.
00:41:54.000 So a lot of people are upset by that because then they think, you know, well, you're platforming bigots and hateful people and...
00:42:02.000 It's a fucking...
00:42:04.000 It's a weird conversation because...
00:42:08.000 I'm a free speech believer.
00:42:11.000 I think the way to counter someone's inappropriate, even someone like Kanye West that says ridiculous shit, anti-Semitic things, the way to counter that is to counter that with more thoughtful opinions on what he's saying and point out that what he's saying is inaccurate in many ways,
00:42:28.000 hurtful in many ways.
00:42:29.000 Point it out.
00:42:30.000 Let's have discussion.
00:42:32.000 Don't silence the guy.
00:42:33.000 Would you have him on?
00:42:35.000 The problem is...
00:42:36.000 I remember one time you invited him to come on years ago.
00:42:39.000 He was on.
00:42:40.000 Oh, he did?
00:42:41.000 Yeah, he's been on.
00:42:41.000 Oh, really?
00:42:42.000 Oh, sorry.
00:42:43.000 My fault.
00:42:43.000 I remember you inviting him to come on about years ago.
00:42:47.000 It was like, no one wants to talk about mental health.
00:42:49.000 I remember you had said something to the effect of any time, but I didn't know that...
00:42:53.000 Oh, my bad.
00:42:53.000 It's a good conversation to listen to if you want to understand how he works, because he works in rants, these long rants.
00:43:01.000 And sometimes when you're ranting...
00:43:03.000 Especially when you're a guy like that, you really don't exactly know what the fuck you're saying, why you're saying it, and you're sort of justifying it while you're saying it, and you're working stuff out in real time.
00:43:14.000 And sometimes you go down roads that are just not fruitful.
00:43:17.000 That's like me yelling at my kids, man.
00:43:21.000 You gotta back up and regroup.
00:43:23.000 And unfortunately for him, he does not do that.
00:43:26.000 He doubles down.
00:43:26.000 And then he continues to double down.
00:43:28.000 And then it's gotten worse, and he posted a Star of David that was wrapped up in a swastika.
00:43:33.000 Oh, yeah.
00:43:35.000 What made him a great rapper is he's incredibly prolific and wildly creative.
00:43:45.000 He can just go and go and go.
00:43:49.000 The problem with that, when you apply that to talking about serious issues, is that it's not just a rap lyric.
00:43:56.000 It's your opinion on things.
00:43:59.000 And, you know, his opinion, the way he raps is like everything's got like so much power behind it.
00:44:05.000 It's just bam, bam, bam, and his music and the beats and everything, and it's just overwhelming.
00:44:10.000 But with dialogue, it requires a more thoughtful understanding of how people are going to interpret what you're saying.
00:44:18.000 And I don't think he thinks that way.
00:44:21.000 I think he just rants.
00:44:22.000 Yeah.
00:44:23.000 There was a, I should remember better details on it, but there was a, it was a legal question.
00:44:30.000 Again, I can't remember what state it was, was whether your music could be used against you in court to capture your state of mind.
00:44:41.000 Oh, wow.
00:44:43.000 I bet Jamie'd find that in no time.
00:44:44.000 The problem with that is, like, people absolutely say things in rap lyrics and rock and roll lyrics that are theatrical.
00:44:53.000 It's not that they mean that, it's just like Quentin Tarantino's dialogue in a film.
00:44:58.000 Yeah.
00:44:59.000 He's making a character, and what he means from that character is, you know, he's trying to paint a film, trying to paint a picture inside of a film.
00:45:09.000 Yeah, it's like that old Joe Rogan joke.
00:45:11.000 How come no one's mad at...
00:45:14.000 Johnny Cash for killing a man just to watch him die.
00:45:18.000 Exactly.
00:45:19.000 Exactly.
00:45:20.000 And guess what?
00:45:21.000 Bob Marley never really shot the sheriff.
00:45:23.000 That was not real.
00:45:24.000 Proposed federal bill to limit music lyrics being used as evidence.
00:45:28.000 Jesus.
00:45:29.000 It's more about specific acts that were committed and when and where they were committed.
00:45:35.000 Oh, like details of crimes.
00:45:36.000 Okay, yeah.
00:45:37.000 Well, that's the thing about, like, gangsta rap.
00:45:40.000 Is that they will actually detail specific things that they've been accused of, which is more problematic.
00:45:47.000 Oh.
00:45:47.000 It's like OJ's book, If I Did It?
00:45:49.000 Right.
00:45:50.000 Yeah.
00:45:51.000 Yeah.
00:45:51.000 I had a copy of that.
00:45:53.000 I think my wife threw it out, because I can't find it.
00:45:56.000 She's tight-lipped.
00:45:58.000 Somebody gave me, I forget it was some comic, gave me a signed copy of OJ's If I Did It.
00:46:04.000 Really?
00:46:05.000 Yeah, I never even cracked the book.
00:46:06.000 I don't even think I ever even, I think it was sealed.
00:46:09.000 You better watch out because he'll break into your house trying to get his shit back.
00:46:13.000 It'll be his own, he'll think it's his own memorabilia.
00:46:16.000 I think he's done with that.
00:46:18.000 Isn't it amazing that that's what he went to jail for?
00:46:22.000 Yeah, there's that Norm MacDonald bit where it's him trying to establish his bona fides in prison.
00:46:30.000 And he's like, well, hey, man, I killed my wife and a waiter, you know?
00:46:34.000 They're like, no, you did not!
00:46:36.000 Like, the fellow prisoners can't take them seriously.
00:46:39.000 Right.
00:46:40.000 Trying to establish his bona fides, that's funny.
00:46:43.000 No, you were acquitted, bro.
00:46:45.000 That shit ain't real.
00:46:46.000 All you did is get your merch back.
00:46:48.000 At gunpoint.
00:46:50.000 Yeah.
00:46:51.000 Did you ever see the rap video that O.J. Simpson did?
00:46:54.000 Mm-mm.
00:46:55.000 O.J. Simpson, when he got out, he...
00:46:57.000 Oh, I heard about it, but never saw it.
00:46:59.000 Yeah, with Naked Women.
00:47:01.000 Did a rap music video with scantily clad women where he's like dressed...
00:47:06.000 Wasn't he dressed like a king?
00:47:07.000 Wearing like a crown and a cape and shit?
00:47:10.000 Something like that?
00:47:11.000 We played it before.
00:47:12.000 It's pretty ridiculous.
00:47:13.000 No, I didn't know about it.
00:47:14.000 But, you know, I think there was a time where he was just trying to figure out a way to make money and he just leaned into it.
00:47:20.000 Dude, that big ESPN documentary was phenomenal, man.
00:47:24.000 On him?
00:47:24.000 Yeah.
00:47:24.000 I never saw it.
00:47:26.000 Really?
00:47:26.000 No.
00:47:26.000 Made in America?
00:47:27.000 No, I never saw it.
00:47:28.000 You didn't watch that?
00:47:28.000 No.
00:47:29.000 Dude, that documentary...
00:47:31.000 My God, it's good.
00:47:32.000 It's long.
00:47:33.000 It's a real commitment.
00:47:34.000 That documentary starts out talking about Like, L.A., the layout of L.A. and the different neighborhoods and where the sports stadium is located.
00:47:50.000 And you're like, how in the world are these people going to bring this home?
00:47:53.000 An O.J. documentary.
00:47:55.000 And holy shit, do they?
00:47:57.000 I mean, it is...
00:47:58.000 If you want to understand...
00:48:01.000 If you want to greatly enhance your understanding of money, celebrity...
00:48:09.000 The Justice in America, Made in America, is phenomenal.
00:48:15.000 It's good.
00:48:16.000 I feel like you'd like it the most.
00:48:17.000 I'll check it out.
00:48:18.000 I didn't even know it existed.
00:48:20.000 Oh, yeah, it's unbelievable.
00:48:21.000 Yeah, I never heard of it.
00:48:22.000 It's unbelievable.
00:48:23.000 And I'm sitting there thinking, man, these guys are losing a lot of viewers right now when it began.
00:48:27.000 Because I thought people were like, I want the part about the blood!
00:48:31.000 There it is.
00:48:32.000 Best documentary feature.
00:48:34.000 O.J. Made in America.
00:48:36.000 Can you remember where you were when they read the verdict?
00:48:40.000 Oh, yeah.
00:48:41.000 I remember where I was when they read the verdict and I remember where I was during the car chase.
00:48:44.000 Oh, yeah.
00:48:45.000 I was in a bar in Muskegon, Michigan called Bo Nicky's with Eric Kern, my late friend.
00:48:50.000 Wow.
00:48:51.000 During the car chase and the verdict was read.
00:48:53.000 I was renting a home in Grand Rapids, Michigan with some dudes I didn't really know.
00:49:03.000 And I was cutting through the living room.
00:49:06.000 And they were watching.
00:49:07.000 I was at...
00:49:08.000 I was probably going out to some other bar.
00:49:10.000 I was at a bar too.
00:49:12.000 I was at Boston Comedy.
00:49:13.000 It was a comedy club in the village.
00:49:15.000 We had heard about it.
00:49:16.000 And we're like, what the fuck is going on?
00:49:20.000 OJ Simpson is in a car chase with the cops.
00:49:23.000 And Made in America, they talked to some of the jurors.
00:49:27.000 And the juror's like, it was never about whether he did it.
00:49:30.000 It wasn't for me.
00:49:31.000 Yeah.
00:49:32.000 Well, it was after Rodney King.
00:49:33.000 Yeah.
00:49:34.000 It was about L.A. It was about L.A. We're talking, you know, I mean, they come kind of flat out say it.
00:49:38.000 It's like, that's not where my, my mind wasn't totally there as much as it was about L.A., LAPD. That's what I was here to talk about.
00:49:45.000 Yeah.
00:49:45.000 I mean, more or less, I'm paraphrasing, but more or less.
00:49:48.000 It's like trying to figure out how to fix policing.
00:49:53.000 It's like clearly the way to fix policing is not give them unlimited power and let them do whatever they want to do.
00:49:58.000 That's not the way to do it.
00:49:59.000 So is the way to do it to diminish their power greatly and diminish public perception of the police and public opinion of the police to where it is now or where it was during the George Floyd riots, at least.
00:50:12.000 No, that's not how to do.
00:50:13.000 Like, defund the police.
00:50:14.000 That's not how to do anything.
00:50:14.000 I think that's ridiculous, man.
00:50:16.000 It's ridiculous.
00:50:17.000 The way is through training and education and maybe even elevating the position of being a police officer to make it more difficult to achieve and make it pay better and make them much more highly trained and, you know, treated almost like the way you would treat,
00:50:33.000 like, special ops groups in the military, you know, where it's an honor to be a part of that group and it's a very difficult Power to attain.
00:50:41.000 Because to be a police officer in some places in the country, it's pretty fucking easy.
00:50:46.000 They don't have a lot of cops.
00:50:47.000 And you see some cops, and they're just grossly overweight.
00:50:51.000 Some of the saddest things to me are these breakdowns that they do on video.
00:50:57.000 They'll do martial arts breakdowns of how bad cops are at physical altercations.
00:51:03.000 Oh, I've never seen one.
00:51:04.000 Yeah, there's a bunch of them.
00:51:05.000 I can picture that being ripe for comedy in some respects.
00:51:07.000 Oh, yeah.
00:51:07.000 It's ripe for comedy, but it's also ripe for jujitsu instruction.
00:51:10.000 Oh, no kidding.
00:51:11.000 So you're using an actual practical way.
00:51:13.000 Yeah, because they're talking about how piss poor these guys are.
00:51:17.000 Yeah, I'm with you.
00:51:18.000 Imagine your job is to enforce the law, which may or may not include deadly force, and restraining people.
00:51:27.000 And you don't know how to restrain people.
00:51:28.000 You have no idea how to do it.
00:51:30.000 That's a big part of the job, is to be physically capable of engaging in one-on-one, hand-to-hand combat with a person.
00:51:38.000 And you have...
00:51:38.000 Zero ability.
00:51:40.000 Yeah.
00:51:40.000 Which is wild.
00:51:41.000 And then to learn it rote enough that you're able to do it without doing, like, way overblown response.
00:51:48.000 Yeah.
00:51:49.000 I think that as I've looked at what's happened to public perception of police officers over the last few years, it reminds me of a similar thing I feel about the polarity in America.
00:52:06.000 Where you have your experience, you have your lived experience, okay?
00:52:10.000 And then you have the experience that you understand to be true from the news.
00:52:15.000 So, from the news, you understand that we're in this period of tremendous divisiveness, and America's splitting apart at the seams.
00:52:28.000 No one wants to engage anymore in a civil function.
00:52:33.000 We're perched on the edge of violence, okay?
00:52:36.000 You get that.
00:52:37.000 But then you analyze what is going on in your life as you go about your life, like having a job, raising kids, engaging with the public school professionals where your kids go, traveling around the country, riding with Uber drivers,
00:52:55.000 dealing with whoever, okay?
00:52:58.000 And you'd be like, if someone wasn't telling you it was happening, you wouldn't know that it's happening.
00:53:06.000 Right.
00:53:06.000 This is a very personal experience for me.
00:53:09.000 I wouldn't know.
00:53:10.000 I would think that we were still having this kind of like an experience of American mutual respect across a bunch of different things.
00:53:21.000 Like, that's my experience.
00:53:23.000 Same thing.
00:53:24.000 I grew up...
00:53:25.000 I think?
00:53:45.000 I wouldn't see it.
00:53:47.000 Yeah.
00:53:48.000 I wouldn't see it that the profession itself was being called into question.
00:53:56.000 Because it's not your lived experience.
00:53:58.000 Yeah, it's just like I don't get it.
00:54:00.000 And a lot of people tell you, well, that's part of the problem because you're privileged in so many ways, so that's your experience.
00:54:05.000 But it's just funny to live in these dual realities of what you understand to be occurring and what you're seeing occurring.
00:54:14.000 You know?
00:54:14.000 Yeah.
00:54:16.000 Yeah, that is a problem.
00:54:18.000 And also, you're dealing with the problems that are occurring to millions and millions of people, in fact, billions all over the world, and the only thing that you read about is things that are bad.
00:54:30.000 Yeah.
00:54:30.000 That's a problem, too.
00:54:32.000 I always try to enforce that with people when they have opinions of police officers.
00:54:35.000 I'm like, you know, because there's so many videos of cops doing shady shit.
00:54:39.000 I'm like, yes.
00:54:42.000 There's bad people at every profession.
00:54:44.000 Every fucking profession that exists is just because some people just have poor character.
00:54:48.000 They're just not good at what they do.
00:54:50.000 But there's millions of interactions with cops and people every day.
00:54:54.000 And nothing goes wrong.
00:54:56.000 And they're fine and peaceful.
00:54:58.000 But you don't take that into account.
00:55:00.000 So when you have an understanding of what's happening in the world in terms of people and their interactions with police officers, it's very biased by the information that you've been subjected to.
00:55:13.000 And that information is almost entirely negative.
00:55:16.000 Because you're only dealing with the stuff that you see that's horrible, unless you've had personal experiences.
00:55:23.000 And then your personal experiences vary greatly depending upon the color of your skin, your economic situation, what part of the world you're living in.
00:55:31.000 I have friends that are black and they talk about getting pulled over and they said they are terrified.
00:55:36.000 They feel like they could get shot at any moment, where I have never experienced that.
00:55:40.000 I'm always very respectful to the cops.
00:55:43.000 I don't think they think, well, obviously a lot of them know who I am, so that's not a problem too.
00:55:47.000 But it's very different for, and to try to get like a balanced, nuanced perspective.
00:55:55.000 Mm-hmm.
00:56:07.000 It's weird.
00:56:09.000 This is also an information issue because you're juggling so much information.
00:56:14.000 You have so much data to process and to try to put it all together and have a nuanced, objective analysis of what it really is.
00:56:26.000 One time I was in New York and I was going to a meeting with these restaurant owners.
00:56:37.000 Fairly high-profile restaurant owners, and they were looking to do this book project about their restaurant.
00:56:43.000 And I wasn't a totally established writer at the time, and I was interested in doing this work for them.
00:56:56.000 My agent set me up to have dinner with them.
00:56:59.000 I'm going through a subway and I didn't know about the knife rules in New York City.
00:57:04.000 I had, as I do now, I have a pocket knife clipped to my pocket.
00:57:10.000 So the clip's out and the knife's in.
00:57:13.000 And I realized there's kind of this bum sort of like walking real close to me.
00:57:18.000 And I look at him kind of like, what the fuck, you know?
00:57:20.000 And he flashes a badge at me.
00:57:23.000 And he takes me into this little room down in the subway system in New York.
00:57:26.000 A bum.
00:57:27.000 So a fake bum.
00:57:28.000 Fake bum.
00:57:28.000 Whoa.
00:57:30.000 And I get...
00:57:31.000 I had an Alaska driver's license.
00:57:36.000 So he's like, asked me a bunch of questions about Palin.
00:57:42.000 So I hung out with her.
00:57:44.000 And then he...
00:57:46.000 I get a...
00:57:49.000 I don't know.
00:57:50.000 They take my knife, I get a court date, and I can't remember what the crime was.
00:57:57.000 Something to do with a deadly weapon, wielding, I don't know what the hell it was.
00:58:01.000 It was like a real thing.
00:58:03.000 I get a court date, but I get let go.
00:58:05.000 I don't get arrested.
00:58:06.000 I get detained and let go, minus my knife, with a court date.
00:58:10.000 I go to my meeting.
00:58:11.000 I'm now late for my meeting.
00:58:14.000 I go to my meeting, and it's a husband and wife team, financial partners in this restaurant stuff.
00:58:22.000 I go like, hey, I'm late.
00:58:23.000 You'll never guess what.
00:58:24.000 And I got a ticket.
00:58:26.000 He takes my ticket and goes into a back room.
00:58:31.000 The dude's not in that back room five minutes.
00:58:34.000 And he comes out and says, you can tear that ticket away.
00:58:37.000 You can tear that ticket up.
00:58:40.000 And I go, really?
00:58:42.000 And he goes, yeah, it's done.
00:58:43.000 And he goes, but I mean, really, you need to pull that ticket out right now and tear it up.
00:58:48.000 And it was over.
00:58:50.000 So, oh, here's another thing.
00:58:53.000 Why did you need to tear it up?
00:58:54.000 He didn't want me having it as a souvenir.
00:58:57.000 Oh, wow.
00:58:57.000 Which I would love to have had it as a souvenir.
00:58:59.000 You know what I'm saying?
00:59:01.000 Another time, so another time, my wife thinks I tell this story way too much for the relevance of it, but I got a drunken disorderly conduct.
00:59:10.000 I got in a skirmish.
00:59:12.000 I got beat up by the cops a little bit, but I had it coming.
00:59:16.000 My buddy Fitz likes to point out that 45 minutes before this happened, I had said in about 45 minutes I'm going to be out of control.
00:59:25.000 I'm supposed to be leaving for graduate school, scared shitless.
00:59:28.000 You know, my dad realizes that, I don't know, it's like through like his church, through the church he went to, he somehow finds someone that knows someone, right?
00:59:39.000 I walk out of there getting a refund on my bail.
00:59:43.000 Like my bail was $250, I got a $225 refund and he asked me if I could afford the $25, walked out the door.
00:59:50.000 Because he found people that knew people.
00:59:52.000 So you could grow up like with that shit.
00:59:55.000 Yeah.
00:59:56.000 And be like, have a way different understanding of how, you know what I mean?
01:00:00.000 Of what you can get away with.
01:00:01.000 The legal process, right?
01:00:03.000 And I could have been not had that, a father with that level of ambition who didn't go to that church and might have been like, I didn't go to graduate school.
01:00:14.000 Right.
01:00:14.000 Because I had resisting arrest.
01:00:17.000 I had resisting arrest charges.
01:00:21.000 Yeah.
01:00:22.000 But all of a sudden I didn't.
01:00:24.000 Because of connections.
01:00:25.000 Imagine being Hunter Biden.
01:00:27.000 Oh.
01:00:28.000 You feel like you get away with anything.
01:00:31.000 Yeah.
01:00:31.000 And listen, my dad never finished high school, right?
01:00:35.000 So he wasn't that kind of power player.
01:00:39.000 He's just a dude in the community that started with the people at church and found his way...
01:00:46.000 Doing, like, something very natural, which is, like, protect your, you know, your kid screwed up, protect your kid.
01:00:52.000 So, yeah, you can wind up with, you know, and, you know, I'm just saying it's more as, like, full disclosure.
01:01:00.000 And me saying that, like, my existence has led me to have certain things.
01:01:03.000 Like, I've had some...
01:01:05.000 Should happen where, for a lot of people, that's not how it would have gone down.
01:01:09.000 Right.
01:01:09.000 You could have done some jail time.
01:01:11.000 Sure.
01:01:12.000 Yeah.
01:01:12.000 Or worse.
01:01:13.000 I had to be there all night.
01:01:15.000 Do you know that story?
01:01:15.000 There's a woman who got pulled over by the cops.
01:01:18.000 It's a pretty famous story of abuse.
01:01:22.000 This woman gets pulled over by the cops and she's smoking in her car.
01:01:25.000 And I think she wasn't doing anything crazy.
01:01:27.000 Like maybe speeding a little bit.
01:01:29.000 Nothing crazy.
01:01:30.000 But she's smoking a cigarette in her car and the cop tells her to put the cigarette out.
01:01:34.000 And she's like, why should I? I don't have to put the cigarette out.
01:01:37.000 And he's like, get out of the car.
01:01:38.000 And she's like, I'm not getting out of the car.
01:01:39.000 Why are you detaining me?
01:01:42.000 And he manhandles her, arrests her.
01:01:45.000 She winds up dead in her cell.
01:01:48.000 What?
01:01:48.000 Yeah.
01:01:48.000 Because of secondhand smoke.
01:01:50.000 No, no, no.
01:01:51.000 Yeah, that.
01:01:52.000 But I mean, winds up, they said that she committed suicide, but it's very suspicious.
01:01:56.000 The whole thing is very suspicious.
01:01:58.000 Hmm.
01:01:58.000 Oh, I do remember, yeah.
01:01:59.000 Remember that story?
01:02:00.000 No, it's coming back.
01:02:01.000 That claim is reminding me of the story, but I didn't remember that that was the details, that it was just about whether or not she had the authority to smoke or not.
01:02:10.000 Yeah, I mean, how do you not have the authority to smoke in your car?
01:02:14.000 I mean, if a cop pulls you over, it's one thing if he's arresting you, and you've done something horrible, you've got coke and guns in your car, and you're a fucking psychopath, but you're just speeding, and he's on some power trip, and he tells you you have to put your cigarette out.
01:02:29.000 You don't want to, so he drags you out of your fucking car and puts you in a cage, and then somehow or another she winds up dead, and they said she committed suicide, but it's very suspicious.
01:02:39.000 The whole thing is just like, and it's...
01:02:42.000 It's a story of abuse.
01:02:43.000 It's like you can watch the video of it.
01:02:45.000 You can watch the video from his squad car of him being abusive.
01:02:51.000 You know, that's someone's different experience.
01:02:53.000 Oh, yeah.
01:02:54.000 And she's a black woman.
01:02:56.000 You know, he's a white cop.
01:02:57.000 And that kind of video, those kind of videos, and there's many of them, That's what really accentuates this distrust that so many people, particularly people of color, you know, people, ethnicities, minors,
01:03:14.000 minorities, rather, have this issue with police.
01:03:17.000 Because that's real.
01:03:18.000 That doesn't happen to me.
01:03:20.000 You know, it probably wouldn't happen to you.
01:03:22.000 As I explained it, doesn't it?
01:03:23.000 Yeah.
01:03:24.000 Also...
01:03:24.000 As I explained it, it doesn't happen to me.
01:03:26.000 One of those guys, the cop tells me to put it out, I'll say, yes, sir, I'll put it out.
01:03:29.000 Yeah.
01:03:30.000 I'm not interested in, like, I, you know, if I ever get in a situation with a cop, it's all, sir, and...
01:03:36.000 Oh, after my idiotic...
01:03:42.000 Episode that one night, which was at Muskegon Summer Festival or some shit like that.
01:03:51.000 I remember it was Bob Dylan's kid was playing.
01:03:54.000 Jacob Dylan.
01:03:55.000 Remember Wallflowers?
01:03:56.000 I've had him on the podcast.
01:03:58.000 He's been on?
01:03:58.000 Yeah.
01:03:58.000 Nice guy.
01:03:59.000 Yeah, it was him.
01:04:00.000 He was playing.
01:04:01.000 Wow.
01:04:06.000 Oh, after that whole thing happened and I was so stupid and really did something really stupid, my tonality in dealing with getting pulled over for traffic violations is to be like, man,
01:04:22.000 I am so sorry for wasting your time.
01:04:24.000 Yeah, that's a good perspective.
01:04:26.000 Yeah.
01:04:28.000 I mean, cops are...
01:04:29.000 The amount of PTSD cops have is very underappreciated.
01:04:33.000 The way they live their life.
01:04:35.000 Like, anytime you pull someone over, you get shot in the face.
01:04:37.000 At any second...
01:04:38.000 Sure, man.
01:04:39.000 Shit can go.
01:04:40.000 And there's a lot of those videos, too.
01:04:42.000 People don't think about that.
01:04:43.000 I mean, the job itself, there's...
01:04:45.000 Probably very few people that can do that job and come out of it and not be really fucked up.
01:04:51.000 I know a lot of cops from my years of martial arts and people I know that have seen horrific shit like that that are cops.
01:05:00.000 They're all fucked up.
01:05:01.000 All of them.
01:05:02.000 Every day they're seeing something.
01:05:04.000 I work with a retired cop.
01:05:10.000 One day I was talking to him about We were looking at a list of states ranked for suicide in Montana.
01:05:20.000 Where I live and where he's from was top of the list.
01:05:24.000 Really?
01:05:25.000 Yeah.
01:05:27.000 Why?
01:05:28.000 My guess...
01:05:34.000 My guess is you have a lot of extreme poverty and really bad situations on a lot of reservations.
01:05:42.000 And there are multiple, five or six large reservations where there's just a legacy of despair in some of these places.
01:05:55.000 A lot of military.
01:05:57.000 So I'm guessing.
01:05:59.000 I don't know.
01:06:02.000 I don't even remember looking at all the states to see if you could find some kind of commonality between them.
01:06:09.000 However, I said, and we were looking at this, and I said, man, can you believe there were, like, blank suicides in Montana?
01:06:17.000 And he said, man, I feel like I've been to half of them.
01:06:21.000 And, you know, that shit's...
01:06:24.000 Oh, man, that must wear on you.
01:06:25.000 Do you know what I mean?
01:06:26.000 That's got to wear on you.
01:06:28.000 There's no way it doesn't.
01:06:30.000 Because, you know, you build your view of the world based on what you experience, what you take in, you know, in terms of media and writing, and then your physical experiences, which are more profound.
01:06:42.000 And imagine if your physical experiences include a lot of suicide.
01:06:48.000 I got another body.
01:06:50.000 I don't want to...
01:06:50.000 I'm going to be, like, slightly more cryptic.
01:06:54.000 Because I just don't want to...
01:06:56.000 I want to conceal his identity a little bit, though I'm not going to say anything that would peg him, but he grew up in a town of 9,000 people.
01:07:05.000 So he spent his whole life there and became a cop late, right?
01:07:07.000 He had another career and became a cop and must have been in his early 40s when he became a cop.
01:07:13.000 9,000 people.
01:07:15.000 And he was forever transformed after just a couple years because he said, I thought I knew my town.
01:07:23.000 And I thought I knew the people in my town.
01:07:26.000 I don't know how I went through life not knowing what's going on.
01:07:30.000 You've told me about this before.
01:07:31.000 Yeah.
01:07:32.000 Shit.
01:07:34.000 The amount of spousal abuse, the amount of child abuse...
01:07:42.000 The amount of substance abuse.
01:07:44.000 He's like, I simply, I don't know how I didn't know, but I didn't know.
01:07:48.000 But it was under my nose all the time.
01:07:50.000 And 9,000 people so small.
01:07:51.000 And he says, now I can't.
01:07:53.000 Like, it's just, my town's not my town.
01:07:54.000 Or it is, but it's not what I thought.
01:07:57.000 Wow.
01:07:58.000 Yeah, you think of it as your neighbors.
01:08:00.000 They're friendly.
01:08:01.000 Guy at the grocery store is friendly.
01:08:02.000 Oh, we live in a great place.
01:08:04.000 Meanwhile, behind doors, people are doing meth and beating the fuck out of each other.
01:08:08.000 Yeah.
01:08:13.000 Yeah.
01:08:14.000 That's one of the big stories in this country, is chemical abuse.
01:08:19.000 Like, how many people are hooked on pills?
01:08:21.000 How many people are fucked up and addicted to substances?
01:08:24.000 I mean, it's just a tremendous problem.
01:08:27.000 That if you don't experience it personally, one-on-one, you really have no idea.
01:08:32.000 You really don't know.
01:08:33.000 And then, you know, you encounter someone who's dealing with that, and then you realize the scope of it.
01:08:40.000 I mean, it's a massive problem in this country.
01:08:43.000 Chemical abuse, meth, pills, opiates, you name it.
01:08:49.000 Amphetamines.
01:08:50.000 I mean, it's just, it's a huge, huge fucking problem.
01:08:54.000 And with that comes all kinds of violence, all kinds of abuse.
01:08:59.000 If you're a cop, that's all you see.
01:09:02.000 Yeah, and if you're a guy like you or me, just goes to the office, says hi to your friends, people you work with, goes home to your kids, your wife, unless you zig when you should have zagged and you run into one of those people, you really don't know.
01:09:14.000 No, you go down to the Thanksgiving potluck at your kid's school and you're like, man, this community's full of people who are just really dedicated to their children.
01:09:25.000 Yeah, it's funny, but it's also fucked.
01:09:27.000 Yeah.
01:09:30.000 Man, this podcast took a fucking dour turn.
01:09:34.000 I don't know, man.
01:09:37.000 I don't know.
01:09:37.000 You bring it out.
01:09:38.000 Is it me?
01:09:41.000 I think it's just the times.
01:09:42.000 It's you and that book about China you've been reading.
01:09:44.000 Oh man, it's rough.
01:09:46.000 It's disturbing.
01:09:48.000 International politics scares the shit out of me.
01:09:50.000 This Brittany Griner trade for that arms dealer scares the shit out of me.
01:09:54.000 Man, you know what's funny?
01:09:56.000 So, I had one...
01:09:58.000 I had one passive under...
01:10:01.000 I had like one understanding of it.
01:10:04.000 Where I'm like, oh...
01:10:07.000 So she broke a rule.
01:10:09.000 The rule seems like not that big of a deal.
01:10:12.000 It's nothing.
01:10:12.000 But, you know, as my friend Chris recently said, rules is rules.
01:10:17.000 So she breaks a rule.
01:10:18.000 And I'm like, holy shit, they're really using her as a political pawn.
01:10:22.000 Yeah.
01:10:23.000 And then they get her back with an arms dealer, trade an arms dealer, and you wonder about whether that's an asymmetrical, somehow an asymmetrical trade.
01:10:34.000 But I don't know.
01:10:35.000 I don't even know what's going on.
01:10:37.000 And then it's kind of like, oh, I'm glad she's back.
01:10:41.000 And then you talk about the outrage machine.
01:10:44.000 Then you read a narrative that would be like, We traded an international arms dealer.
01:10:52.000 What's his nickname?
01:10:53.000 Dr. Death or some shit?
01:10:54.000 Merchant of Death.
01:10:55.000 Merchant of Death for a dope smoker.
01:10:58.000 We didn't get the Marine back.
01:11:01.000 The person didn't want the National Anthem played at their games, right?
01:11:05.000 And you go like, oh!
01:11:07.000 There's a narrative, you know what I mean?
01:11:10.000 There's like a well-crafted narrative that I didn't put together.
01:11:13.000 Have you ever seen Rush's take on it?
01:11:15.000 No.
01:11:16.000 Oh my god.
01:11:17.000 It's kind of crazy.
01:11:18.000 Because it turned out that they offered one or the other.
01:11:22.000 They offered either Paul Whelan, who was the Marine.
01:11:26.000 Oh, really?
01:11:26.000 Yeah.
01:11:27.000 That's what they're saying.
01:11:29.000 Yeah.
01:11:29.000 Well, that's what NBC was saying as well.
01:11:31.000 Really?
01:11:32.000 They redacted it and changed their story.
01:11:35.000 Yeah, that's...
01:11:35.000 Supposedly, it was a one versus one.
01:11:39.000 You could pick which one.
01:11:41.000 And in Russia, there's this political show, sort of like a Fox News type show, where they're making...
01:11:47.000 See if you can find it, Jamie.
01:11:48.000 I'll send it to you if you do.
01:11:50.000 Do you know what it is?
01:11:51.000 I'm trying to pull it up.
01:11:52.000 It's just not...
01:11:53.000 So in this thing, they're just completely mocking.
01:11:58.000 Like, well, he has one thing going against him.
01:12:02.000 He is a man.
01:12:03.000 And also, you know, he is white.
01:12:05.000 Like, here.
01:12:06.000 Meanwhile in Russia, top state propagandists reveal the narrative they'll be pushing to harm Biden and enrage Americans.
01:12:12.000 About the exchange of Brittany Griner for Victor Bout by falsely claiming that it wasn't Rush's decision to oppose Whelan's release as opposed to Griner.
01:12:22.000 So it's hard to say.
01:12:23.000 This person who's saying this is saying that it was Rush's decision to oppose Whelan's release, who they think was spying.
01:12:33.000 I don't know if he was or wasn't.
01:12:34.000 He may have been.
01:12:36.000 May have been arrested for espionage.
01:12:39.000 But see if you can find the video, because it's going to be in Russian.
01:12:42.000 They don't have it.
01:12:43.000 No, but you see the translation.
01:12:47.000 Well, people are listening now.
01:12:49.000 Yeah, we'll translate it.
01:12:49.000 He's got a great point, Joe.
01:12:51.000 Yeah, he does.
01:12:55.000 So, of course, I was very amused, but not surprised.
01:12:58.000 The bout was exchanged for Griner and not Whelan.
01:13:03.000 First of all, I congratulate Bout and his entire family for many years.
01:13:07.000 We have been in touch with his family and with him personally to the extent it was possible.
01:13:11.000 We communicated with him to the extent that we could.
01:13:15.000 Of course, this is a huge joy and relief for all of us.
01:13:18.000 I can't even imagine...
01:13:20.000 I can't say anymore, Jamie.
01:13:21.000 You touched it.
01:13:22.000 Just go full screen.
01:13:25.000 But he was not exchanged for the heroic spy.
01:13:31.000 Because he is a spy.
01:13:32.000 Whelan is a spy.
01:13:35.000 He was apprehended while receiving information.
01:13:38.000 On a flash drive.
01:13:40.000 He said he was supposed to get photos of churches.
01:13:43.000 And Sergei Posad on a flash drive.
01:13:45.000 You send the church photos to WhatsApp, right?
01:13:48.000 That's where we get them.
01:13:49.000 Look where I've been.
01:13:54.000 Quality would be decent, no worse than on a flash drive.
01:13:56.000 He is a spy, therefore, to them, he is a hero.
01:13:59.000 He is a hero, decorated marine, covered in metals.
01:14:03.000 He only has one, no two, no three problems.
01:14:09.000 His first problem is he is white.
01:14:11.000 Second problem is he is a man.
01:14:13.000 Third problem, he is a heterosexual.
01:14:15.000 And they're laughing.
01:14:16.000 This is not something that can be forgiven today.
01:14:18.000 It's just a catastrophe.
01:14:20.000 Yet here Griner beats him in every aspect.
01:14:22.000 American voters were given a choice.
01:14:25.000 A hero who suffered while serving his fatherland.
01:14:30.000 A metal-covered hero who suffered during his service.
01:14:36.000 To his fatherland, the United States.
01:14:39.000 Or a black lesbian hooked on drugs.
01:14:40.000 Oh, Jesus.
01:14:43.000 Who suffered for a vape with hashish.
01:14:47.000 And well known for the sake of PR. American voters are choosing the obvious.
01:14:55.000 I think for us, it's one more piece of good news.
01:14:59.000 The first good news is that a bout has returned.
01:15:01.000 The second good news is that a nation That spits on its heroes to the extent that it considers it significantly more important to free a rightly charged, well-known athlete.
01:15:16.000 She didn't suffer because she served her motherland, but because she couldn't live for 10 hours without her hashish.
01:15:24.000 Instead of freeing that person in prison for two years, For serving his motherland.
01:15:29.000 This says a lot about the state of this society.
01:15:32.000 So this is just like, basically, Fox News in Russia.
01:15:35.000 You know, it's obviously a very propaganda-driven show.
01:15:40.000 But that's the thing about Russia.
01:15:43.000 You can't have a show that shits all over the government in Russia.
01:15:47.000 You could never have, like, when MSNBC was mocking, openly mocking Trump, and, you know, CNN was constantly talking about Trump, and it was jacking up their ratings.
01:15:57.000 That's, like, not even possible in Russia.
01:15:59.000 Yeah.
01:15:59.000 You can't have a show like that.
01:16:00.000 The Ruskies would be all over your ass.
01:16:02.000 Oh, yeah.
01:16:05.000 Yeah.
01:16:06.000 Well, you couldn't have a society like this.
01:16:09.000 This is what people don't understand when they try to impose censorship.
01:16:11.000 It goes all the way through.
01:16:13.000 You will eventually get to a point where it's only state-sanctioned information that's allowed to be distributed if you allow censorship.
01:16:20.000 Because they've already shown that the government is deeply embedded in social media.
01:16:24.000 And this is one of the things that's most disturbing about these revelations about...
01:16:28.000 Whether it's the FBI or whatever intelligence agencies were behind censoring certain people off of Twitter and removing certain people off of Twitter and removing certain narratives and certain stories like the Hunter Biden laptop story.
01:16:41.000 If you support that because it fits with your ideology, ultimately you support government control over a narrative.
01:16:48.000 And it's going to go the other way if a Republican gets in office.
01:16:52.000 Then you're going to deal with a similar problem.
01:16:55.000 Imagine if instead of Hunter Biden's laptop, it was Donald Trump Jr.'s laptop.
01:17:01.000 And Donald Trump Jr.'s laptop, he's getting foot jobs by prostitutes and smoking street crack in Vietnam.
01:17:09.000 Do you think they would have censored that off of Twitter?
01:17:10.000 Holy shit, man.
01:17:11.000 Do you think they would have censored that off of Twitter and said, we can't verify the information.
01:17:14.000 We don't know whether or not it's true.
01:17:16.000 It has all the earmarks of Russian disinformation.
01:17:19.000 It's not a fucking chance in hell.
01:17:21.000 That's the problem.
01:17:22.000 The truth dies with censorship.
01:17:25.000 You don't get a chance to sort out what's real and what's not.
01:17:28.000 The government gets to decide for you.
01:17:30.000 And if you ultimately believe in censorship, And you ultimately believe in censoring the people that have opinions that disagree with your own.
01:17:36.000 That's where this goes.
01:17:37.000 This goes to fascism.
01:17:39.000 This goes to a terrible place that no one wants that's unrecoverable.
01:17:44.000 You can't recover from that.
01:17:46.000 If you get to that point where the government controls the narrative completely and they get to dictate what gets distributed on social media, we're all fucked.
01:17:54.000 All of us.
01:17:54.000 The people that agree with the narrative, the people that disagree with the narrative, truth dies.
01:18:00.000 It'll be interesting what gets released, if there's any additional information about the collusion to go after people who...
01:18:14.000 Didn't get on with COVID orthodoxy, where the administration is actually flagging individuals who'd be shut down, and then they're pointing out where else to find them, or they've moved to this other platform.
01:18:27.000 Can we get them off this other platform as well?
01:18:29.000 They were on Facebook, now they're on Instagram.
01:18:32.000 Can you go get them?
01:18:33.000 Yeah.
01:18:35.000 It's kind of fucked.
01:18:36.000 Well, it's also kind of fucked when you realize that the CDC, you know, where does their funding come from?
01:18:42.000 Well, a lot of it comes from pharmaceutical companies.
01:18:45.000 And like, where's this narrative coming from?
01:18:47.000 It comes from the government.
01:18:49.000 Where does the television advertising come from?
01:18:51.000 Well, 75% of television advertising is pharmaceutical companies.
01:18:55.000 Like, the narratives that they push, you've got to think they're at least slightly influenced by the people that give them all the money.
01:19:02.000 You know, what's funny is we one time on our podcast, we were laughing about We're talking about COVID getting into deer.
01:19:13.000 Right?
01:19:14.000 Yeah.
01:19:14.000 It's real.
01:19:15.000 Endlessly fascinating.
01:19:16.000 Yeah, really fascinating.
01:19:18.000 And we were laughing that it must have come through Doug Dern's pee.
01:19:25.000 Ha ha ha ha!
01:19:26.000 And then we wound up getting flagged in one of those distribution channels for the truth about COVID. Oh my God, COVID misinformation.
01:19:38.000 Yeah, it was like plugging it on, putting it all on Doug Dern.
01:19:42.000 Well, what's fucked about COVID misinformation is a lot of the stuff that they were calling misinformation that would get you removed from social media now is just openly discussed as fact.
01:19:51.000 Yeah, yeah.
01:19:51.000 That's what's scary.
01:19:53.000 Yeah.
01:19:53.000 That's why that kind of censorship is dangerous, because you don't get to find out what's right and what's wrong if you don't let everybody talk, including experts with problematic opinions.
01:20:01.000 No, I think it'll be, in time, it'll prove to be a great case study, because it happened so fast It affected all aspects of communication, all aspects of society, from local government to federal government,
01:20:18.000 right?
01:20:19.000 I mean, it was just like, it was so quick and so everywhere, and then kind of ended relatively quickly.
01:20:27.000 Yeah.
01:20:28.000 So, rather than some gradual shift over time, you'll be able to step back, and it won't be long, like in five or six years.
01:20:40.000 You'd be able to step back and really go like, okay, here's what happened.
01:20:45.000 And you'd be able to look at how ideas, brand new ideas, emerged, were squashed, punished, people were punished for having ideas, ideas came back out.
01:20:57.000 It'll be a really interesting little segment.
01:21:00.000 To look at when it comes like the flow of information, how the flow of information is controlled, how narratives are reinforced, how people that pushed other ones were, you know, decried or delegitimized and then like very quickly later celebrated or pointed out.
01:21:21.000 Yeah.
01:21:21.000 I'd love to work on that documentary.
01:21:24.000 That's a tricky one.
01:21:25.000 Like in 25 years when there's a Netflix documentary about COVID? Yeah.
01:21:31.000 I'll be on there like a talking hand.
01:21:33.000 I'll be like, I told him!
01:21:34.000 It's going to be interesting to see in 25 years what distribution of information is like.
01:21:41.000 Yeah, where would you put the documentary about it?
01:21:43.000 Yeah, well, where would you put any?
01:21:45.000 I mean, I think, if you think 25 years ago, there was no internet, or no internet the way it is now, at least.
01:21:52.000 25 years from now, what are we going to be dealing with?
01:21:54.000 It's probably going to be something that's so profoundly different than anything we ever expected.
01:22:01.000 It's almost like we were talking about making a movie, a non-fiction movie about the future.
01:22:05.000 It's impossible.
01:22:07.000 25 years from now, it's probably going to be neural implants.
01:22:09.000 Which I was reading a story today that Elon might be in trouble.
01:22:12.000 The Neuralink company, because of animal abuse.
01:22:15.000 Because they run these studies on monkeys, and then they kill the monkeys.
01:22:19.000 Which they do all the time.
01:22:21.000 Whenever they do these studies with animals...
01:22:25.000 They wind up killing the animals to find out what kind of an effect these things had on the animals by doing autopsies on them.
01:22:31.000 And people are finding out that they did that to monkeys and that they opened monkeys' heads up and put these fucking Neuralink things in there.
01:22:39.000 And this is outraging people.
01:22:41.000 Which is a very interesting moral dilemma.
01:22:45.000 If you can fix all these diseases, if you can cure paralysis, if you can greatly expand the ability of the human mind through technology, but you have to kill a bunch of monkeys to do it, are we okay with that?
01:23:00.000 I don't think that'll become a widespread thing because you can't look at any of our major medical breakthroughs that didn't have some level of animal research.
01:23:14.000 I think on stuff that might strike people as relatively, you know, what might strike people as relatively frivolous, you know, testing comfort levels of shampoos and shit, right?
01:23:28.000 You can see people being like, that doesn't seem to me something that really warrants the use of animal experimentation.
01:23:36.000 But I don't think that the preponderance or like mainstream Americans are going to turn against Medical research that involves animal experimentation, once they understand how much of what they enjoy has been informed,
01:23:56.000 influenced, discovered because of that.
01:23:59.000 I think you make some noise about it, but I have a hard time seeing that becoming an actual problem.
01:24:05.000 Yeah, I think it's going to be, it's a point of outrage for some people, particularly animal rights people, but that is the nature of a lot of those experiments.
01:24:16.000 What do you think about that kind of shit, like neural implants?
01:24:20.000 You ever thought about it?
01:24:21.000 No.
01:24:21.000 You ever looked into it?
01:24:22.000 No.
01:24:23.000 I mean, I might have read some things about it, but no, I don't have an opinion about it, because I don't understand.
01:24:27.000 I'd have to have a question put to me, I guess, but I don't understand it enough to have an opinion about it.
01:24:32.000 It's a weird thing, and it's probably gonna be the future.
01:24:37.000 It's probably going to inevitably, whether it's 50 years from now or five years from now, they're gonna be doing that.
01:24:44.000 They're gonna be doing that to people.
01:24:46.000 Putting it in you with what in mind?
01:24:49.000 Enhancing your access to information.
01:24:51.000 Got it.
01:24:52.000 Increasing the bandwidth that the human mind has to information.
01:24:55.000 Initially, it'll be for people with injuries.
01:24:57.000 It apparently can be used for people with paralysis, and they'll be able to use...
01:25:05.000 I'm going to crudely describe this for anybody who's an actual scientist.
01:25:11.000 They're going to be able to...
01:25:12.000 People that no longer have...
01:25:16.000 Their spinal column has been severed.
01:25:18.000 They're going to be able to bypass that and allow you to have access to your limbs with this technology.
01:25:26.000 So initially, it'll have some very acceptable applications where people go, this is great.
01:25:32.000 This is groundbreaking.
01:25:34.000 People who are paralyzed can now walk.
01:25:36.000 But then ultimately, what Elon said to me is you're going to be able to speak without using words.
01:25:43.000 So there's going to be some sort of an interface that people have with each other.
01:25:47.000 They're going to be able to be connected, whether it's through the internet or some other broadband type of technology.
01:25:55.000 You're going to be able to access information, communicate with each other, and do all of it through these devices.
01:26:01.000 I hope that thinking part you can turn off and on when you want, man.
01:26:06.000 Arguing with your wife would be a disaster, dude.
01:26:08.000 Well, just access to the internet.
01:26:10.000 Imagine access to everyone's opinions.
01:26:13.000 Turn on your notifications for the whole world, and they're all inside your head.
01:26:16.000 Sure.
01:26:17.000 Fuck.
01:26:18.000 So, no, I don't like the sounds of that.
01:26:20.000 But the disease stuff, for sure.
01:26:22.000 Who's going to argue against it?
01:26:24.000 That puts you in a weird...
01:26:25.000 That puts you always in a moral bind would be...
01:26:27.000 You kind of get into like, well, AI makes me very uneasy.
01:26:33.000 However...
01:26:34.000 Want to put it to use for national security.
01:26:37.000 Or, no, they want to put an implant in your brain.
01:26:39.000 Okay, but what about allowing this child who's never walked, this child who's never seen to see?
01:26:45.000 Oh yeah, well in that case.
01:26:46.000 Yeah.
01:26:48.000 But one of the things that you do is you interface with the natural world in a way that most human beings don't.
01:26:57.000 You're constantly in the wilderness.
01:27:00.000 You're constantly among wild animals in these wild places.
01:27:06.000 And you have a very different view of society and a very different view of just life than most people do, I think, because of that.
01:27:16.000 Yeah, I think that that stuff, I definitely think it informs it.
01:27:22.000 Yeah.
01:27:24.000 I've tried to capture this in various ways, too, but I think of...
01:27:29.000 I look for the ways in which I think of humans, in which humans are still animals.
01:27:42.000 I mean, we are, like, empirically, right?
01:27:44.000 You know, you can't deny it.
01:27:45.000 Right.
01:27:46.000 But no one would come and say, you know, no one would come and argue that, you know, we're not a mammal, okay?
01:27:55.000 I just see the ways in which...
01:28:00.000 We're governed by similar impulses or in ways in which our experiences aren't that different from that.
01:28:08.000 And I embrace it, you know?
01:28:11.000 I embrace it.
01:28:12.000 I try to get my...
01:28:13.000 I try to help my kids to see it as well.
01:28:15.000 And I think in some ways it causes...
01:28:17.000 In some ways that you...
01:28:20.000 In explaining things to kids or...
01:28:22.000 Think about yourself.
01:28:23.000 You commit the...
01:28:26.000 What some people might regard as the crime of anthropomorphism, right?
01:28:30.000 Where you give animals human attributes, human feelings.
01:28:38.000 But when I'm looking at, well, I live with my kids, I do it all the time.
01:28:42.000 You know, whatever.
01:28:44.000 That buck is jealous of that other buck.
01:28:46.000 Right.
01:28:47.000 That's just how we'll naturally talk about what's going on in front of us around animals.
01:28:53.000 You know?
01:28:54.000 Yeah.
01:28:55.000 That bear is nervous about that other bear.
01:28:58.000 You just talk about it like you're watching interactions.
01:29:02.000 And so I try to invite that level of looking at...
01:29:13.000 Yeah.
01:29:26.000 Yeah.
01:29:28.000 Yeah.
01:29:29.000 Yeah.
01:29:33.000 So the wild goat was breeding with this female wild goat and right next to him, like 20 feet away, was another wild goat breeding with another female goat.
01:29:45.000 And this guy dismounts, runs over, and knocks that goat over.
01:29:50.000 Just charges in the middle of sex and just blasts this other goat and knocks him down.
01:29:56.000 Sure.
01:29:57.000 It's like, no, no, no.
01:29:58.000 I'm the only one who gets to fuck.
01:30:01.000 So...
01:30:02.000 So there's some kind of jealousy going on with goats.
01:30:04.000 I would love to watch that play out with my kids.
01:30:10.000 That's one of the things I like about it, too, is you can wind up...
01:30:13.000 God, you can talk about rich stuff.
01:30:16.000 Yeah.
01:30:17.000 You know, watching it.
01:30:18.000 You talk about rich stuff with kids, man.
01:30:20.000 Watching animals, you know.
01:30:22.000 Oh, yeah.
01:30:22.000 There's so much to talk about.
01:30:24.000 I mean, that world is so fascinating.
01:30:27.000 And, you know, for many people, you get a little taste of it from documentaries, maybe a little internet clip here or there, or, you know, you see animals at the zoo.
01:30:36.000 You have very little exposure to what it's like to be around them in real life.
01:30:44.000 I fished when I was younger, but I didn't spend a lot of time in the wild, near wild animals.
01:30:51.000 And I remember when you and I went on that first trip to Montana, the moment where...
01:31:00.000 Shot that buck was the first animal I've ever killed and That moment where like I locked eyes on it and we're in the wild and you see this thing and it was a totally Unusual experience.
01:31:13.000 I remember thinking like this is almost like Bizarrely almost like psychedelic Because the world this world is so different Than any other aspect of the world the world where you're you're sneaking up on an animal You're trying to be undetected it spots you you look at them,
01:31:35.000 you know, what's up?
01:31:36.000 They kind of know something's wrong and You're locked into this completely different vibration of existence.
01:31:43.000 And I remember thinking, but this is very bizarre.
01:31:46.000 This is a very bizarre state.
01:31:48.000 It's a state of mind.
01:31:49.000 And I feel like it's also a very bizarre state of mind that's recognizable.
01:31:54.000 It's like a little door that you didn't even know you had in your room, in your house.
01:31:58.000 Like, what's in this door?
01:31:59.000 And you open the door like, oh, this is the hunter door.
01:32:02.000 You didn't even know you had that door.
01:32:03.000 And then all of a sudden you're in there.
01:32:04.000 I equate it with people.
01:32:06.000 I tell people all the time.
01:32:06.000 I go, you know that feeling that you get when you go fishing?
01:32:10.000 Most people know that feeling.
01:32:11.000 When you catch a fish and everything just gets excited.
01:32:16.000 That is a feeling that's like deeply embedded in the human reward system.
01:32:21.000 There's something that tells you this is a great thing because now you are going to catch a fish and that fish is going to feed your family.
01:32:29.000 You're going to exist.
01:32:30.000 You're going to live.
01:32:31.000 You're going to thrive.
01:32:32.000 Whereas if you didn't catch a fish, you didn't get anything.
01:32:35.000 It's an almost illogical lighting up of your system.
01:32:38.000 Oh, it speaks to me in a big way.
01:32:39.000 To everybody, to everyone.
01:32:41.000 To kids it does.
01:32:42.000 You know, my youngest, I took her fishing when she was like five years old.
01:32:47.000 She caught a six pound bass.
01:32:50.000 Fucking huge bass for her.
01:32:52.000 And she's like holding this thing, like the look on her face, the excitement of it all.
01:32:57.000 It's like it does something to people that is like deeply ingrained in us.
01:33:04.000 It just ignites this thing that's a part of you that you didn't know was there.
01:33:09.000 I think as well, you get in observing wildlife, being around wildlife, trying to get up on it and kill it at times.
01:33:18.000 Man, you get invited into just a different pacing.
01:33:22.000 Yeah.
01:33:23.000 We have a youth deer season, so I was hunting youth deer season with my kids this year.
01:33:29.000 And we watched a deer.
01:33:32.000 He was quite a ways off.
01:33:34.000 But he had climbed up into view and was standing on this little ridge.
01:33:38.000 And something caught it.
01:33:39.000 He was going away from us.
01:33:41.000 Probably 600-700 yards away.
01:33:43.000 And he climbed up this ridge and something caught his attention.
01:33:46.000 On the other side of the ridge.
01:33:47.000 And he locked up.
01:33:49.000 I mean locked up, locked up.
01:33:52.000 Standing there.
01:33:52.000 Not like he...
01:33:53.000 He didn't get into a position where he decided he was comfortable.
01:33:56.000 He just froze his step.
01:33:58.000 Because something caught his attention.
01:34:00.000 And that deer...
01:34:03.000 Didn't move.
01:34:03.000 I mean, didn't move a foot for 22 minutes.
01:34:08.000 Wow.
01:34:10.000 It didn't move its head.
01:34:12.000 It didn't move its feet.
01:34:13.000 It stood exactly dead still for 22 minutes.
01:34:17.000 You think it was like a mountain lion or something?
01:34:19.000 It was too far away.
01:34:20.000 He just knew something was that caught his eye and held that position and Without settling in.
01:34:30.000 And then at 22 minutes, it looked left.
01:34:34.000 I'm not kidding you.
01:34:35.000 When it got dark and we left, that deer was still standing there.
01:34:37.000 But he looked left.
01:34:39.000 He broke his gaze.
01:34:41.000 And to be tangled up in that, it's like, wow, man, just the level of perception and concentration and focus and the way that time...
01:34:49.000 It's so hard to understand how time moves.
01:34:51.000 You can't understand how time moves for stuff.
01:34:54.000 You'll find in the wintertime, you'll find where a grouse will get snowed on.
01:35:00.000 So it's already in its place.
01:35:03.000 And then it snows afoot.
01:35:06.000 And so you'll jump the grouse out of the snow.
01:35:09.000 There's no tracks leading to where it was.
01:35:12.000 It snowed on it.
01:35:13.000 It stayed there.
01:35:15.000 Sometimes for days.
01:35:17.000 And we'll have dozens of pellets, dozens of shit pellets.
01:35:22.000 Underneath it.
01:35:25.000 And then busts out of the snow and flies away.
01:35:28.000 And it had been where it was sitting.
01:35:30.000 It got snowed on, covered in snow, waited there, shat I don't know how many times over how many days, and then flies out of there.
01:35:37.000 Just the passage of time.
01:35:38.000 The passage of time you can't even begin to understand it.
01:35:41.000 Can you imagine that existence where every minute of every day you're wondering if something's going to eat you?
01:35:48.000 Yeah, I don't know.
01:35:49.000 I'd love to get into it for a minute.
01:35:50.000 I'd love to get into it for a minute.
01:35:52.000 Which animal would you get into?
01:35:54.000 I'd love to understand, if you could understand for a bull or a buck or whatever, how they feel sexual desire.
01:36:05.000 What does it feel like?
01:36:06.000 Is it mostly a competitive feeling?
01:36:12.000 I mean, is it mostly competition?
01:36:15.000 I don't think it's like, I don't know.
01:36:19.000 I don't think it's passion.
01:36:21.000 What does it feel like?
01:36:23.000 Well, it's definitely not how, you know, it's not love.
01:36:26.000 That's probably one of the weird things about human animals as opposed to other animals.
01:36:30.000 Is that our sex is intertwined with compassion and love.
01:36:35.000 Yeah.
01:36:35.000 For the vast majority of people, yes.
01:36:38.000 Yeah.
01:36:38.000 For the vast majority of people, yes.
01:36:40.000 Whereas with them, it's a pure desire to spread the DNA. Mm-hmm.
01:36:46.000 At all costs.
01:36:47.000 Yeah.
01:36:47.000 At all costs.
01:36:48.000 Or mostly all costs.
01:36:50.000 It's gotta be wild.
01:36:52.000 Bulls in the rut.
01:36:53.000 And especially when you consider that it only happens once a year.
01:36:56.000 That's gotta be insane.
01:36:57.000 Where this overwhelming urge.
01:37:00.000 All year round.
01:37:01.000 They're not horny at all.
01:37:02.000 They don't even engage in any kind of sexual satisfaction at all.
01:37:07.000 And then September rolls around and shit gets wild.
01:37:11.000 Yeah.
01:37:11.000 Got blue balls by then.
01:37:13.000 Just...
01:37:14.000 But it's just strange how nature works, how it coincides with the seasons so that the, you know, the calves will be born in the spring and it's so weird.
01:37:24.000 Have you read Dan Flory's new book?
01:37:26.000 No, I haven't heard about, I've heard about it rather, but I haven't read it.
01:37:29.000 Wild New World?
01:37:30.000 He contacted me the other day.
01:37:32.000 I joked with him where, when I was reading it, I want to make an annotated version where I have commentary, where I do all the footnotes.
01:37:40.000 Because I want to be like, well, yeah, but you also got to consider this.
01:37:44.000 The whole time I'm reading the book, I'm like, Dan, you can't say that without saying this.
01:37:48.000 What is the premise of the book?
01:37:50.000 Well, okay, it's the premise.
01:37:51.000 It's the story.
01:37:52.000 So his new book, Wild New World, is a history of human-animal interactions.
01:38:00.000 And it basically begins with the Chicxulub strike.
01:38:03.000 Chicxulub?
01:38:04.000 Yeah, it's a great word.
01:38:05.000 I didn't know the word until I read his book.
01:38:06.000 The Chicxulub strike.
01:38:08.000 It's the impact strike in the Yucatan that kills the dinosaurs.
01:38:16.000 So it begins with the Chicxulub strike because what he's trying to do, he's trying to find a place to get into...
01:38:22.000 The American menagerie, okay?
01:38:24.000 American wildlife.
01:38:25.000 So he just starts there.
01:38:27.000 Where you have, you know, you kind of like wipe the slate clean, right?
01:38:31.000 And you bring in, because he's trying to explain how does North America have its bestiary?
01:38:36.000 And he just finds that as a good place to enter the narrative about how we have the animals we have, where we got the American bestiary from.
01:38:46.000 And it covers up until like yesterday.
01:38:49.000 It covers up to the current battle over wolf reintroduction.
01:38:53.000 So it's just a story of humans and wildlife in America.
01:39:00.000 He spends a lot of time on some things that...
01:39:03.000 I interviewed him at a bookstore, and I was kind of busting his balls about some things he does in the book that I didn't like.
01:39:10.000 But areas where I disagree to them.
01:39:13.000 But he spends a lot of time on...
01:39:16.000 Not a lot of time.
01:39:17.000 Toward the end, he talks a lot about the individuality in animals.
01:39:21.000 Okay.
01:39:24.000 Us not having room, or us not sort of like humans not allowing...
01:39:30.000 Space for individualities in animals, right?
01:39:34.000 I think at one point he talks about his dog.
01:39:36.000 He's like, there's no other dog like this dog.
01:39:41.000 There's no other dog that knows that this dog knows.
01:39:43.000 There's no other dog that has the history this dog has.
01:39:45.000 There's no other dog that processes the information around it in the way that this dog processes the information around it.
01:39:52.000 Why would we not extend that same thing to animals in the wild?
01:39:55.000 Yeah.
01:39:57.000 Yeah, we would have to.
01:39:58.000 You can't ignore the question.
01:40:02.000 Right.
01:40:03.000 You can't ignore the question.
01:40:04.000 Right.
01:40:04.000 There has to be individuality amongst wild species.
01:40:08.000 I think some have tremendous individuality, and I have to feel that some don't have as much.
01:40:13.000 Like maybe trout.
01:40:14.000 Yeah.
01:40:16.000 If you put on a spectrum like microbial – forget microbial life.
01:40:20.000 If you put it on a spectrum – Colony insects.
01:40:26.000 So the ants in the colony, I'd be like, that has to be pretty low individuality.
01:40:30.000 I'm guessing lower individuality.
01:40:33.000 Up to animals that live in social hierarchies, like really fine-tuned social hierarchies, you have to be like, that's high levels of individuality.
01:40:40.000 No one's going to look and say that chimps don't have high levels of individuality.
01:40:44.000 Because you've got these animals that have these known personal histories.
01:40:47.000 They've conducted quests.
01:40:51.000 You know?
01:40:52.000 So that, like, reading the book, part of me making the joke that I wanted to make a version where I do all the footnote commentary is it's like there's a lot of shit in there that a hunter can't ignore in the book about the role of hunting and extinctions,
01:41:11.000 right?
01:41:15.000 Lots to unpack, man.
01:41:18.000 And even the role of hunter-based, he even talks a lot about hunter-based conservation.
01:41:23.000 Where you'd be like, you know, so you kind of want there to be a lot of elk so you can kill them?
01:41:30.000 Right.
01:41:31.000 And you're like, yeah.
01:41:33.000 Honestly, that's a part of it.
01:41:34.000 It's a small part of it, and it doesn't explain it all, but sure, that's there.
01:41:37.000 That's there.
01:41:38.000 It's definitely a factor.
01:41:39.000 It's there.
01:41:40.000 Like, I, like other predators...
01:41:44.000 Like to see a prey rich landscape.
01:41:47.000 Do I need to apologize?
01:41:49.000 I don't think so.
01:41:50.000 No.
01:41:52.000 But it's not everything.
01:41:54.000 Well, if you are apologizing, you're apologizing to people that don't have that experience and don't understand what you're saying.
01:41:59.000 Yeah.
01:41:59.000 We apply individuality to specific animals like Cecil the lion.
01:42:04.000 Sure.
01:42:05.000 Or El Jefe, that jaguar that makes its way into America occasionally.
01:42:10.000 Yeah.
01:42:11.000 I was reading an article about El Jefe yesterday.
01:42:13.000 They were saying that El Jefe has been eating bears.
01:42:16.000 Oh, really?
01:42:17.000 Yeah, because bears don't know what a jaguar is.
01:42:21.000 So they don't know to be scared of it.
01:42:22.000 And they were making this...
01:42:25.000 They're supposing that maybe the bears would be even curious.
01:42:29.000 They would get near the jaguar.
01:42:31.000 Oh.
01:42:32.000 Yeah.
01:42:33.000 Because they have probably some kind of point of reference with mountain lions and it doesn't pan out.
01:42:37.000 Yeah, they're like, what is that fucking thing?
01:42:38.000 Have you followed the jaguar debate that's going on right now?
01:42:41.000 No.
01:42:42.000 It's a great one, man.
01:42:44.000 So...
01:42:49.000 Defining...
01:42:50.000 Okay.
01:42:52.000 I'm going to tell you something that's objectively true.
01:42:59.000 Okay.
01:43:00.000 It's objectively true that we had a population of Jaguars in the United States of America up until the 1800s.
01:43:15.000 They just were.
01:43:18.000 What's debated is how stable was it?
01:43:22.000 How widespread was it?
01:43:24.000 Some people would point to, well, basically limited to Southern Arizona.
01:43:29.000 Some people would look and be, well, West Texas, New Mexico.
01:43:35.000 Southern Arizona.
01:43:37.000 What about members of the Coronado expedition drawing a distinction between lions and jaguars all the way up toward the Platte River?
01:43:48.000 Why would they say both?
01:43:51.000 What are they confusing?
01:43:53.000 Where's the Platte River?
01:43:54.000 Oh, so more in the southern plains, the southern great plains of the United States, flowing across Kansas.
01:44:02.000 Oh, wow.
01:44:04.000 Where you have instances of people mentioning things that you sort of like, look at you like, man, if they weren't talking about jaguar, what the hell are they talking about?
01:44:11.000 How do they describe it?
01:44:12.000 Leopards.
01:44:15.000 And a lot of times someone will say, there'll be a reference to a large cat, and you can't rule out, well, maybe in a historic record, they're probably talking about mountain lions.
01:44:23.000 But what do you do in a case where you have a historic record and someone is in some oddball place, Southern Colorado, and they're talking about, they have lions and leopards.
01:44:33.000 And lions and leopards.
01:44:36.000 So it's like, I guess we're talking, I mean, they have to be referring to jaguars.
01:44:41.000 Right.
01:44:42.000 Much more widely dispersed.
01:44:43.000 So as people get into talking about jaguar recovery, of which I'm a proponent with an asterisk.
01:44:54.000 When people get talking about jaguar recovery, you have to define what that looks like.
01:45:00.000 And there are some who would say Jaguar recovery in North America as a collaborative effort between us, Mexico, Belize, whoever else has rolled into this Jaguar recovery plan.
01:45:10.000 Jaguar recovery in North America would mean...
01:45:16.000 We're good to go.
01:45:42.000 Other people would argue that Arizona was absolutely core habitat, and if we're going to restore jaguars in core habitat, we're going to be restoring jaguars in some portion of the lower 48. Meaning, eventually, and recovery would look a couple ways.
01:46:00.000 One is like protections, and you would watch how jaguars are able to flow back and forth across the border.
01:46:08.000 A big question around jaguar recovery is the border wall.
01:46:12.000 How much would a border wall impact large mammal movements?
01:46:17.000 So that's an aspect.
01:46:18.000 If we don't allow recovery in that way, or we make recovery in that way difficult, do we truck jaguars up and turn them loose in Arizona, New Mexico, West Texas?
01:46:30.000 Really?
01:46:31.000 You're going to turn them loose?
01:46:34.000 Right.
01:46:35.000 I love it, dude.
01:46:37.000 I love them, and I honestly don't think...
01:46:39.000 They live in such low population abundances, and they have such huge home ranges.
01:46:48.000 I don't think it would ever be that there was a jaguar problem.
01:46:51.000 Like a wolf problem.
01:46:53.000 I don't think you're going to have people where you might recover wolves in some area and lose two-thirds of the elk.
01:47:01.000 Like, seemingly overnight.
01:47:03.000 I just, I can't picture that that's...
01:47:05.000 I think you'd lose a lot of lions.
01:47:07.000 You'd lose a lot of mountain lions, probably, but...
01:47:09.000 Do you think they'd be forced out, or do you think due to predation?
01:47:12.000 I think that probably a combination of both, like them killing them and then just range reduction because of this big cat.
01:47:19.000 But dude, like, I'm conflict-averse enough where I don't want...
01:47:25.000 It's like, trucking them in, to me, is way in the future.
01:47:29.000 And man, it would be a political battle.
01:47:31.000 And you'd make a spotted owl out of the Jaguar.
01:47:35.000 You'd have some level of people that just came to hate them, sons of bitches, because they were a symbol of federal overreach.
01:47:42.000 But them just coming across the border, I think is a great way.
01:47:45.000 It's a great thing to root for.
01:47:47.000 I love him.
01:47:48.000 That's where they think El Jefe's coming through.
01:47:50.000 That's one of the reasons why they call him El Jefe.
01:47:53.000 He manages to make his way through the wall.
01:47:56.000 For a Jaguar to come hanging out in the U.S., it's a dicey life.
01:48:02.000 I don't think he knows.
01:48:03.000 No, of course he doesn't know.
01:48:06.000 But you wind up...
01:48:08.000 In recent decades, there's not a great...
01:48:14.000 Likelihood of establishing a habitat and having a female to breed with.
01:48:17.000 Right.
01:48:18.000 What's a big leopard?
01:48:20.000 Or a jaguar, rather.
01:48:21.000 A big jaguar?
01:48:21.000 I don't know.
01:48:22.000 I don't know.
01:48:23.000 I don't know what their max weight is.
01:48:25.000 A big mountain lion, like the high end is like what?
01:48:27.000 A couple hundred pounds?
01:48:29.000 Man, a lot of people like to say that.
01:48:30.000 You know, people are always like, 200 pound lion!
01:48:33.000 If they have a belly full of meat, You know, if they have a belly full of meat, they get up to into the 170s.
01:48:39.000 But I had a guy, so I had a conversation one time with a researcher in Oregon who did a long...
01:48:45.000 He was a large carnivore biologist in Oregon, and he told me that he weighed over 300 of them on digital scales.
01:48:54.000 The biggest one he ever weighed that didn't have a belly distended with meat, the biggest one he ever weighed was 164. Interesting.
01:49:04.000 But he said, when you get into these bigger numbers, he says, is it so full that he can't barely get through the woods and climb a tree?
01:49:13.000 Because you can get some good weights then.
01:49:15.000 Because he can have 30 pounds of meat.
01:49:18.000 They can eat 30 pounds of meat.
01:49:19.000 Yeah, he can have 20 to 30 pounds of meat in his gut.
01:49:21.000 Imagine that's your size.
01:49:24.000 Imagine you eating 30 pounds of meat.
01:49:26.000 Yeah.
01:49:27.000 Because that's essentially your size.
01:49:29.000 And so when people get into a lot of these crazy weights, it's because of that.
01:49:32.000 But he's talking about, they're just like, they don't...
01:49:34.000 They can have a big live weight, but if you empty the stomach on them and weigh them, they're not like that.
01:49:41.000 But I think that having a 250-pound Jaguar is approachable.
01:49:47.000 They're big.
01:49:47.000 So it's 100 pounds bigger.
01:49:49.000 Yeah, and they're like, I don't want to be quoted on the biggest poundage ever found on a Jaguar, but God, they're fascinating.
01:49:58.000 I've only ever seen their tracks, man.
01:49:59.000 I haven't seen one.
01:50:00.000 I was minutes from seeing one one time.
01:50:03.000 Where?
01:50:04.000 In Guyana, we went and checked out this sandbar where these giant river turtles were laying their eggs.
01:50:17.000 And I was with some guys, and they were indigenous, and they go and dig eggs.
01:50:26.000 So they went to get some eggs to eat.
01:50:28.000 And you can see where the jaguars had been digging up egg nests and also probably hunting the turtles on the beach.
01:50:34.000 We left, went around the bend to camp.
01:50:36.000 Some of these guys went back to take a bath at the beach, and they went back, and the jaguar was standing back there again.
01:50:41.000 I'd never seen one, though, personally.
01:50:44.000 One of my favorite videos is watching jaguars eat caimans.
01:50:47.000 Oh, my God.
01:50:49.000 Sneaking up on crocodiles.
01:50:51.000 Swam across grass.
01:50:52.000 Yeah, no, it's great.
01:50:53.000 They're crazy animals.
01:50:54.000 That I would have had no idea until the Internet came around.
01:50:57.000 I had no idea that that was a commonplace occurrence, and that's part of the menu.
01:51:01.000 Oh, they're wild, man.
01:51:03.000 So here it says males are heavier than females.
01:51:05.000 Males can weigh from 126 to 250 pounds.
01:51:08.000 Females can weigh 100 to 200 pounds, according to the Denver Zoo.
01:51:13.000 Hmm.
01:51:14.000 You know what else I want to talk to you about is you sent me a thing about the, you sent me that buck, a picture of that buck.
01:51:19.000 Which one?
01:51:20.000 The Rampala buck.
01:51:22.000 Which one is that?
01:51:23.000 It's called the Rampala buck.
01:51:25.000 Was that the buck where the guy faked it?
01:51:27.000 Well...
01:51:28.000 No?
01:51:28.000 No.
01:51:30.000 Maybe.
01:51:30.000 I want to do a documentary on it, dude.
01:51:32.000 So, let's explain that to people.
01:51:34.000 I kept wanting to talk to you about it when I came on your show, because it's such a fascinating story.
01:51:38.000 I'm like, so, in 98, it was 98, maybe Jamie can pull a picture of this deer.
01:51:45.000 In 1998...
01:51:47.000 There it is.
01:51:47.000 There it is.
01:51:47.000 Yeah, that's him.
01:51:50.000 It's a crazy story about this deer.
01:51:52.000 Now, a little bit, so this takes place in Michigan in 1998. Now, the biggest white-tailed deer, the biggest typical white-tailed deer in the world is this deer called the Hansen buck, or Milo Hansen killed the biggest white-tailed,
01:52:07.000 typical white-tailed deer in the world, okay?
01:52:09.000 I think the Hansen buck was, the Milo Hansen buck was killed in the 80s, if I'm not mistaken.
01:52:17.000 There's the Milo Hanson buck.
01:52:18.000 There it is.
01:52:19.000 Man, that's a big buck.
01:52:21.000 Yep.
01:52:22.000 Canada.
01:52:23.000 When you look at these pictures, notice, when you look at the Milo Hanson buck, you want to notice a couple things about it.
01:52:31.000 When you look at all these giant bucks, you'll want to notice how the burrs are positioned on top of his head, like how much space is between those burrs.
01:52:38.000 And you'll want to notice, like, on these giant, giant bucks, the presence of little extra points and little points here and there and shit.
01:52:46.000 So anyways, this guy, Milo Hanson, kills this, in Canada, he kills this world record typical whitetail.
01:52:52.000 We just had in our podcast the guy, the huff buck, where a guy in Indiana just killed the biggest typical whitetail in the U.S., But he didn't beat the Hanson Buck.
01:53:04.000 How big is the Huff Buck?
01:53:05.000 I can't remember what the Huff Buck was.
01:53:07.000 It was 2+.
01:53:07.000 Unbelievable.
01:53:11.000 Wow.
01:53:12.000 Didn't beat the Hanson Buck.
01:53:15.000 I'll talk about the Huff Buck too as I tell you about this controversy around the Huff Buck that is not there anymore but controversy that emerged.
01:53:23.000 So he's this guy, Mitch Rampala is this Michigan bowhunter.
01:53:27.000 And weirdly, my old man knew Mitch Rampala.
01:53:30.000 Because my dad used to measure bucks.
01:53:32.000 And he would measure bucks for this place called Commemorative Bucks of Michigan.
01:53:36.000 And Mitch Ron Powell was involved in Commemorative Bucks of Michigan.
01:53:39.000 But one day, he, I think it was mid-November, Mitch Ron Powell in Traverse City, Michigan, kills a buck that's going to beat, that clearly smokes the Hanson buck in size.
01:53:55.000 Anytime something like that happens, there's like a lot of questions about, is it legit?
01:53:59.000 Is it real?
01:54:00.000 So, one thing that becomes readily apparent is just the buck looks weird.
01:54:07.000 Like his antler configuration is weird.
01:54:12.000 When you say weird, what do you mean by that?
01:54:14.000 Just a weird configuration.
01:54:15.000 How absolutely perfect it is.
01:54:18.000 How the burrs sit on its head.
01:54:22.000 Notice how the burrs seem to be coming out the side of its head?
01:54:27.000 Yeah.
01:54:28.000 How it's tipped out?
01:54:31.000 Okay?
01:54:32.000 Yeah.
01:54:35.000 So he gets his buck, and it's going to beat the Hanson buck, but there's a thing that he won't do.
01:54:40.000 He won't let it be x-rayed.
01:54:44.000 Oh...
01:54:47.000 What does he say when they say we want to x-ray it?
01:54:51.000 Well, first off, he comes forward with the buck.
01:54:55.000 He's a very private person.
01:54:57.000 So everybody already knows he's a very private person.
01:54:59.000 He comes forward with the buck, and it's more like everybody else is saying that this buck is going to beat the Hanson buck.
01:55:08.000 And all these theories start to emerge.
01:55:10.000 That he had fabricated the rack.
01:55:12.000 That he had access to a deer farm.
01:55:16.000 So he was able to make this perfect rack.
01:55:18.000 And people are looking at the photo of the buck and its ear droops funny.
01:55:23.000 There's blood in weird places.
01:55:25.000 The antlers seem to be not colored quite correctly.
01:55:28.000 And there's this idea that he killed the buck.
01:55:31.000 For real.
01:55:33.000 Cut open its hide on its head.
01:55:37.000 Took a fabricated buck rack on a skull plate and attached it.
01:55:42.000 However, a tribal game warden sees it at his house, doesn't see anything fishy about it, and some guys come to officially measure the buck, just like in the picture you saw.
01:55:53.000 They officially measure the buck, but they never examine the skull plate.
01:55:56.000 All those people say, these eyewitnesses, like, I didn't see anything wrong with that buck.
01:56:02.000 But he won't put the buck, he won't enter the buck into the record books.
01:56:09.000 Sighting Like, a disagreement with the record books over some stuff.
01:56:13.000 And he's like, and a lot of people kill deer and don't enter them in the record books.
01:56:16.000 People are also looking, they're like, a big buck like that's never come out, there's no big bucks in Traverse City.
01:56:21.000 Like, how's this guy kill this big buck where there's no big bucks?
01:56:23.000 And people are like, yeah, but these giant bucks are freaks.
01:56:26.000 Like, you don't kill multiple 200-inch whitetails in one spot.
01:56:29.000 But you'd be like, well, you kill a bunch of 170s and 180s and 190s.
01:56:33.000 It does look weird.
01:56:34.000 Well, that's another one.
01:56:36.000 What's that one?
01:56:36.000 Well, that's where the story starts getting rich.
01:56:39.000 Oh, no.
01:56:40.000 So check this out.
01:56:42.000 The reason I want to make a documentary about this, it's legitimately unsolved.
01:56:48.000 Milo Hanson, the guy that has the Hanson Buck, he makes a lot of money renting his buck out to buck shows.
01:56:55.000 This is no joke, dude.
01:56:59.000 You'll have trade shows.
01:57:02.000 Not trade shows, but public sporting goods shows.
01:57:05.000 Gun shows, state sporting goods shows, whatever.
01:57:09.000 The people that organize it will pay to have the Hanson Buck on display.
01:57:16.000 But suddenly, the Hanson Buck isn't a hot ticket commodity anymore.
01:57:21.000 Because everyone knows that the Ron Paula buck beat the Hanson buck.
01:57:25.000 So now he's seeing his rentals go down because, like, you're not the biggest buck.
01:57:30.000 We can't get the biggest buck because he doesn't want to show anybody, but you're not the biggest buck.
01:57:35.000 They go to Ron Paula.
01:57:38.000 And they have a non-monetary settlement in Mitch Rampala under threat of lawsuit.
01:57:44.000 Mitch Rampala agrees in a non-monetary settlement that he will stop saying his buck is bigger than the Hanson buck.
01:57:53.000 Why would you do that?
01:57:55.000 Then people are like, just get the buck x-rayed.
01:57:59.000 Just get it x-rayed.
01:58:00.000 Two individuals in Michigan come forward and say, I'll give you $10,000 to let me x-ray that buck.
01:58:05.000 He wouldn't take the money.
01:58:07.000 Then he says, and a lot of his friends think that this is his legitimate response and this makes total sense.
01:58:13.000 Then he says, fuck it.
01:58:14.000 I'm not showing anyone the fucking buck.
01:58:16.000 I'm done talking about it.
01:58:18.000 Not why I hunt.
01:58:20.000 I don't want to talk about it.
01:58:22.000 Some years go by, and it's put to rest sort of by someone saying it burned up in a house fire anyway.
01:58:30.000 A lot of his friends are like, dude, that's totally a Mitch move.
01:58:33.000 That's what Mitch would do.
01:58:34.000 People also try to make a big deal out of a criminal record he had to demonstrate dishonesty.
01:58:39.000 But here's the other thing.
01:58:39.000 He then establishes a website, and in the following years, weirdly, posts, like the picture he just pulled up, posts a bunch more bucks that have the same look.
01:58:52.000 That super wide, crazy look.
01:58:55.000 The website's now gone.
01:58:56.000 But he then, over the course of years, keeps shooting these crazy looking bucks, which no one else in Traverse City is killing.
01:59:06.000 But he says, but that's not why I hunt.
01:59:07.000 And people are like, if that's not why you hunt, why do you still have the website with all these crazy bucks that look like homemade bucks?
01:59:15.000 Ah, wow.
01:59:16.000 So he eventually just vanishes from the public eye.
01:59:19.000 And you've got to understand, there is like...
01:59:23.000 There's generational wealth attached to killing the world's biggest whitetail.
01:59:27.000 Really?
01:59:28.000 Oh, yeah.
01:59:28.000 Like, it could be leveraged.
01:59:29.000 Like, that Hanson buck.
01:59:32.000 The amount of just endorsements and the never-ending display stuff.
01:59:38.000 Dustin Hough, the kid that just killed the new record.
01:59:42.000 There you go.
01:59:43.000 Home of the Hanson Buck.
01:59:44.000 World record whitetail deer.
01:59:46.000 Scoring 213-5.
01:59:48.000 Oh, 93. So he killed it in 93. And the Rampala Buck was 98. So big bucks were in the air.
01:59:58.000 Dustin Hough...
01:59:59.000 When he killed his buck, what's funny about him, so we had him on the podcast, he kills a big buck in Indiana.
02:00:04.000 He has no idea the buck's there.
02:00:05.000 He's just out hunting.
02:00:07.000 And there it is.
02:00:08.000 Other guys in the area knew, but no one was talking to anybody.
02:00:11.000 No one would tell anybody this big buck was there, and he kills this big buck.
02:00:14.000 He right away, kind of knowing how shit goes when you kill a big buck, it's so funny, he right away calls the DNR in Indiana.
02:00:22.000 Gets someone on the phone, he's like, hey man, I just killed a huge buck.
02:00:24.000 I just want to tell everybody, and I want to get it all squared away that I killed this huge buck.
02:00:28.000 No one will call him back.
02:00:30.000 Then the rumors start flying.
02:00:31.000 He poached it.
02:00:32.000 He's not actually a resident.
02:00:33.000 He did this.
02:00:34.000 He did that.
02:00:35.000 Game wardens call him up.
02:00:36.000 We understand you killed a big buck.
02:00:37.000 I tried to tell you I killed a big buck.
02:00:41.000 So now, after the fact, they come out and do a site inspection.
02:00:45.000 And he puts all the hysteria to rest.
02:00:50.000 And then sold the buck for an undisclosed amount of money.
02:00:54.000 Sold it?
02:00:54.000 Yeah.
02:00:56.000 I'm sure it was a lot of money.
02:00:57.000 What's a lot of money for selling a buck?
02:01:00.000 Oh, he won't say.
02:01:03.000 We pressed him on it.
02:01:04.000 He won't say.
02:01:05.000 I know one little detail about the buyer, which once I heard the detail about the buyer, I think I found who it was.
02:01:11.000 I think I know who it was.
02:01:16.000 Probably around for that buck, because it's not the world's biggest, it has to be.
02:01:20.000 He wouldn't say, but guys I know that know.
02:01:22.000 It has to be a six-figure deal.
02:01:25.000 Really?
02:01:26.000 Probably.
02:01:27.000 He won't put it to rest.
02:01:29.000 Or I think one of our guys that I work with real close, Spencer, I think Spencer, maybe Spencer came in and made a guess at 80 because he reports on that kind of stuff.
02:01:37.000 So that's not the generational wealth thing, but like the biggest.
02:01:41.000 The biggest is a thing that, like, your kids, if that record stands, like, your kids will enjoy the benefits of that deer.
02:01:49.000 95, it says that handsome buck was worth up to a million dollars.
02:01:52.000 Wow.
02:01:54.000 That's, you know, 30 years ago.
02:01:56.000 Wow.
02:01:58.000 Yeah, you know, maybe I was full of shit.
02:02:01.000 Maybe I was full of shit when I said generational buck.
02:02:04.000 I don't know how accurate that is either.
02:02:08.000 Huh.
02:02:11.000 We should explain to people that are uneducated about this or uninformed how bizarre the world of whitetail hunting is.
02:02:21.000 Just like nothing else.
02:02:22.000 Because for people that don't grow up around it and don't understand it, I follow a lot of people on YouTube that have bucks and they're all named.
02:02:32.000 They have target bucks.
02:02:34.000 And so what these people do is they'll set up food plots.
02:02:37.000 They have these large chunks of land.
02:02:39.000 They've invested shit tons of money.
02:02:48.000 Yeah.
02:02:57.000 These folks will set up food plots where they'll grow alfalfa and apple trees and all these different things that they feel, and specifically just to attract bucks.
02:03:06.000 And then they set up cameras.
02:03:08.000 So they have these camera traps everywhere.
02:03:10.000 And nowadays they have camera traps that are attached to cell phones.
02:03:14.000 So these camera traps, they'll send you a photo on your...
02:03:18.000 Trail cams.
02:03:18.000 Trail cams.
02:03:18.000 They'll send you a photo.
02:03:20.000 Scientists call them camera traps?
02:03:22.000 Yeah.
02:03:22.000 Yeah.
02:03:24.000 I'm thinking of Bondo Apes.
02:03:30.000 So they get photos sent to their phone.
02:03:33.000 Like, ding!
02:03:34.000 Got a notification.
02:03:34.000 Oh, shit.
02:03:35.000 So it'll be like 1 o'clock in the morning.
02:03:37.000 Their phone dings by the bed.
02:03:39.000 They'll pick it up and they'll say, oh my god, he's nocturnal.
02:03:41.000 Oh, dude, it's the most addictive thing in the world, man.
02:03:43.000 They'll call him one superstar, and one's the gunfighter, and they have all these names for these bucks.
02:03:50.000 And there's all these documentary-style videos on YouTube of these various big buck hunters, guys like Lee Lukoski.
02:04:00.000 He's one of the most famous ones, who has this enormous farm in Iowa.
02:04:04.000 They have a target buck.
02:04:05.000 Yeah, and Lee will pass on 170-inch bucks.
02:04:09.000 Sure.
02:04:13.000 We're good to go.
02:04:16.000 We're good to go.
02:04:35.000 Just stay up in that tree stand, just freezing their dick off all day long.
02:04:39.000 I was reading this one account.
02:04:40.000 This guy was talking about how it was the most frustrating season ever because he went like 40 days in the stand and never even drew his bow back.
02:04:48.000 Never even saw a deer that he could shoot, but he was talking about like this is what he loves about whitetail hunting, is that if on the 39th day A whopper could walk right through a 200 inch buck and he would shoot it, but that this is an obsession with that part of the world that is Largely unknown like I remember one time when I was on the road I was I think I was in Nashville or it might have been Atlanta and I went and did this local radio station They were talking about NASCAR and they were talking about this guy and that guy
02:05:18.000 and did you hear about that?
02:05:19.000 And I'm like this is a world that I've never even heard of like you guys are excited about a guy races a car in a circle for real and But they knew everybody.
02:05:29.000 Yes, they are.
02:05:29.000 They knew everybody, and it was the local obsession.
02:05:33.000 That is what it's like in the world of, you know, Midwest, big-game whitetail hunting.
02:05:41.000 That's all happened in my lifetime.
02:05:44.000 Really?
02:05:45.000 Oh, yeah.
02:05:46.000 Like, that...
02:05:47.000 I mean...
02:05:52.000 Whitetail have always been, like, they are the most hunted, in terms of man hours, not the most harvested thing, but in terms of man hours, they are the most hunted animal in America.
02:06:03.000 You can hunt whitetails in most states.
02:06:04.000 There's only a few exceptions where you can't hunt whitetails.
02:06:08.000 They have a relatively small home range, so you can kind of have one stay close and nearby.
02:06:20.000 We're good to go.
02:06:34.000 You know, housing developments, golf courses, none of this shit really seems to phase them like it does a lot of other highly sensitive wildlife.
02:06:40.000 So you can just live and be in deer country, and most people live in deer country.
02:06:45.000 And for most people, it's the biggest thing around.
02:06:51.000 And you can Have, like, this very long-term immersive experience with them.
02:06:57.000 You know, Clay Newcomb, he recently did a Bear Grease podcast about a buck he was obsessed with for many years.
02:07:04.000 And then he got killed by some guy on a neighboring property who just got, like, shit lucky.
02:07:10.000 And Clay is like mourning about this and eventually brings this guy the shed antlers.
02:07:17.000 He had over multiple years found the matching sets of shed antlers from this deer and the pictures and eventually gets over his mourning and does a podcast episode about it.
02:07:28.000 Actually, the guy is on the podcast.
02:07:30.000 He goes to the guy and be like, I need to talk to you about your deer.
02:07:36.000 And the guy didn't know what was going to happen.
02:07:37.000 He didn't know if he was going to get in a fight or what when Clay came and did that.
02:07:40.000 But he said, there's a thing or two I need to tell you about that buck he killed.
02:07:44.000 And lays out that he has five years into this deer.
02:07:49.000 Wow.
02:07:49.000 How old was the deer?
02:07:51.000 I can't remember when the guy killed at seven years old or something like that, but Clay had early on.
02:07:56.000 I might get some of the details wrong, but Clay had early on flagged it as this unusual, like this buck with this unusual antler configuration, and he watched it get bigger, and then had a bad year and got smaller, and Clay thought, well, if they live long,
02:08:11.000 they'll fade.
02:08:12.000 Whatever, at six years, he'll throw the biggest rack he's ever going to throw, and then he'll have a couple bad years before he dies.
02:08:17.000 This buck throws a shitty rack.
02:08:20.000 But then comes out of it and throws a bigger rack.
02:08:23.000 And just when you're questioning whether Clay's actually looking at the proper buck, the buck's got leg injuries, which makes it like a one-in-a-million leg injury array, front and rear.
02:08:36.000 So you can always tell the buck.
02:08:38.000 He's got, like, growths on his legs that you can just know that that's absolutely the buck.
02:08:42.000 And he's obsessed about the buck.
02:08:44.000 And then some guy rents a house.
02:08:49.000 And decides to go out hunting behind the house and shoots the buck.
02:08:52.000 Wow!
02:08:53.000 You know, it's a funny story similar to that.
02:08:55.000 We had a turkey researcher and they were studying how turkeys evade predation, human predation.
02:09:04.000 And they had a turkey that they actually started giving its coordinates to hunters.
02:09:09.000 Being like, here's where the turkey is right now.
02:09:11.000 Here's where he's roosted.
02:09:11.000 Try to get him.
02:09:13.000 Right?
02:09:13.000 And they'd be able to watch the hunter on a tracking device and they could watch the turkey on a tracking device.
02:09:18.000 They'd just watch all these turkeys just juke people.
02:09:20.000 And they'd even put good turkey hunters on them and good turkey hunters couldn't kill them.
02:09:25.000 One day a guy gets in a fight with his wife Storms out of the house, drives down the road, gets to the game management area sign, pulls over to the side of the road, walks off in the woods, sits against the tree to cool off, and kills that turkey.
02:09:38.000 Wow.
02:09:39.000 Shit locked into it.
02:09:41.000 Shit locked into it.
02:09:43.000 But it was like, so anyways, this buck, Clay's like obsessed with the buck.
02:09:46.000 Because, like I said, you can live with it that way.
02:09:49.000 And there's not a lot of animals you're gonna...
02:09:51.000 There's not a lot of animals you can have that experience with.
02:09:53.000 Where you see them over and over and over again.
02:09:55.000 You can grow up with them.
02:09:56.000 You can be like, at any point in time, like...
02:09:58.000 At any point in time, you could sort of like walk out your door and like kind of sweep your hand and be like, he's there somewhere right now.
02:10:05.000 Do you have a conflicted view of what I would call almost like, it's almost like free-range deer farming.
02:10:13.000 Because if you're providing them with all this food, and then you're keeping an eye on them with trail cams that send you digital images through cell phone signals, and you're tracking their location, and you make it so that you lure them in there.
02:10:30.000 I mean, obviously, it requires a lot of resources.
02:10:33.000 No, I don't.
02:10:33.000 No, I don't mean conflicted, but I shouldn't say conflicted like you shouldn't do it.
02:10:38.000 What I mean is, like, is it different?
02:10:40.000 What are the pros and cons?
02:10:42.000 Because it's definitely different than if you go into the mountains and you stumble upon a giant mule deer and you track him and you hunt him and you kill him.
02:10:52.000 That is a deer that you might have seen the day before or something like that.
02:10:56.000 But this is not an animal that you have a relationship with.
02:10:58.000 And you certainly didn't lure him into that area with a food plot and apples and shit.
02:11:05.000 It's different.
02:11:06.000 It's different.
02:11:07.000 But if you look at...
02:11:09.000 If you're measuring it on...
02:11:13.000 If you measure human knowledge, and let's say we're going to measure it in bits, and we're going to measure human output in calories or whatever, the bits of information required to successfully do that on a piece of land,
02:11:31.000 and the calories required to successfully do that on a piece of land are enormous and far outweigh The bits of information and calories expelled to get a deer in many other kinds of circumstances.
02:11:50.000 Different skill sets.
02:11:51.000 I don't feel any personal desire to have a place where I grow big whitetails.
02:12:00.000 Because to me, they're not as mysterious to me as they are to some people.
02:12:05.000 However...
02:12:07.000 The most productive chunks of privately owned ground that I know about from a biological standpoint We're good to go.
02:12:41.000 You know, a cheater.
02:12:43.000 I'm definitely not saying that.
02:12:44.000 Because, holy shit, they do phenomenal wildlife work, and it's trickle night.
02:12:48.000 And you could, again, we talked about this earlier, you could look and be like, oh, you're just doing that so you can kill that deer.
02:12:52.000 Well, okay, sure.
02:12:53.000 But the number of songbirds, the number of pollinators...
02:13:21.000 Because they're just mysterious.
02:13:23.000 They're more mysterious.
02:13:25.000 They're more mysterious.
02:13:26.000 They're more sensitive.
02:13:27.000 They're more mysterious.
02:13:29.000 I just think that they're much cooler.
02:13:30.000 How are they more sensitive?
02:13:31.000 In what way?
02:13:32.000 You know I was saying that whitetails love people?
02:13:36.000 In general, mule deer don't.
02:13:37.000 But they do in Colorado.
02:13:39.000 You know, you can always...
02:13:41.000 I know.
02:13:41.000 In Boulder, I pulled over to the side of the road.
02:13:43.000 There was a giant buck.
02:13:45.000 Yes.
02:13:45.000 And I pulled the car over, and I was showing my kids, and we got out.
02:13:48.000 We're like, look, look, look, look, look.
02:13:50.000 It was like right there.
02:13:51.000 It's like, this is a hurdle you wind up talking about.
02:13:54.000 This is a hurdle you encounter when you're talking about mule deer, because people will always be able to say, well, there's mule deer laying in my yard.
02:14:00.000 Yeah.
02:14:01.000 There's mule deer at the golf course.
02:14:02.000 Yeah.
02:14:07.000 As an area gets colonized by humans, as areas become colonized by humans, those areas become better for whitetails, and you'll see more whitetails.
02:14:22.000 The inverse is true with mule deer.
02:14:25.000 You can be like, well, there's some on the golf course.
02:14:28.000 But if you look at pieces of habitat, one of the reasons that it's bad for mule deer is because it's good for whitetails.
02:14:36.000 Whitetails are less sensitive and they can out-compete.
02:14:40.000 Elk and whitetails out-compete mule deer.
02:14:44.000 Millers are just more sensitive.
02:14:46.000 They're more sensitive to everything going on around them.
02:14:48.000 They're less likely to not want to go to an area.
02:14:53.000 When places have been developed, it doesn't work well for them in the long run.
02:14:59.000 I think they look cooler.
02:15:02.000 They're definitely cooler.
02:15:03.000 I prefer to eat them.
02:15:06.000 Really?
02:15:07.000 Yeah, because I like that.
02:15:09.000 Whatever people identify as gamey, I prefer.
02:15:12.000 My wife, she doesn't care about mule deer racks.
02:15:17.000 If I try to show her, look at the size of this mule deer I got, she'd be like, oh, it looks like all the other mule deer.
02:15:21.000 Who cares?
02:15:21.000 But she prefers to eat mule deer meat.
02:15:25.000 Everything about them I like better.
02:15:27.000 I like the places they live in.
02:15:28.000 They're wilder.
02:15:30.000 They're less sort of touched.
02:15:32.000 You can go to certain areas and you might be the first person.
02:15:35.000 You can look at mule deer now and then and be like, you know, considering that he's only three, four, five, six years old, I might be the only person who's ever laid eyes on that thing.
02:15:44.000 That's plausible.
02:15:46.000 Right.
02:15:46.000 You know?
02:15:48.000 And then there's places where big mule deer become a trophy obsession.
02:15:53.000 Oh, of course.
02:15:54.000 There's places that are extremely difficult to hunt, like the Arizona Strip.
02:15:57.000 Yep.
02:15:58.000 Where people become obsessed with getting a tag for the Arizona Strip.
02:16:03.000 I drew this year probably the best tag in Idaho.
02:16:07.000 Idaho's another place, right?
02:16:09.000 Yep.
02:16:09.000 What was it like?
02:16:11.000 Unbelievable.
02:16:12.000 Yeah?
02:16:13.000 Unbelievable.
02:16:15.000 I never had...
02:16:16.000 It's almost like you gotta be careful not to let it ruin you.
02:16:21.000 Really?
02:16:22.000 Yeah.
02:16:22.000 I mean, I'll never draw it again.
02:16:23.000 I shouldn't say I'll never draw it again.
02:16:25.000 I might not ever draw it again.
02:16:25.000 Did you get a buck?
02:16:26.000 Yeah.
02:16:27.000 Second day.
02:16:28.000 Really?
02:16:29.000 But, but, I had some friends that really hit it hard during archery season.
02:16:35.000 And they scoured that place.
02:16:39.000 And so, in talking to my friends, they're like, I would think real seriously about checking here, here, and here.
02:16:46.000 So they were in the wrong spots.
02:16:47.000 No, no, no.
02:16:48.000 No, they were telling me, coming into it for rifle season, they had said to me, I would like...
02:16:54.000 Oh, so they helped you?
02:16:55.000 Yeah, they're like, you know, I would look there, I would look there, I would look there, I would not bother looking there, which was hugely beneficial to my experience.
02:17:04.000 Well, I wound up getting one that they didn't know about.
02:17:07.000 I got one that they hadn't found out about, but it helped me be very, like, it helped me rule out.
02:17:15.000 If I had just done it off maps, I probably would have spent time in some places that they were like, I wouldn't look there.
02:17:22.000 I would be looking here.
02:17:24.000 For this reason.
02:17:26.000 And so I started looking there.
02:17:28.000 I found the bucks that they knew about and then pretty quickly found a buck they hadn't even known about.
02:17:34.000 The big one?
02:17:34.000 Nice one.
02:17:35.000 You got a picture?
02:17:36.000 Yeah.
02:17:37.000 Send it to Jamie.
02:17:38.000 Real nice one.
02:17:38.000 Airdrop that sucker.
02:17:40.000 Real nice one.
02:17:41.000 Hold on a minute here.
02:17:45.000 Have you ever hunted the Arizona Strip?
02:17:47.000 Nope, but I certainly would.
02:17:51.000 That's supposed to be the spot, right?
02:17:54.000 Yeah.
02:17:54.000 I mean, they get fucking giant mule deer there, right?
02:17:59.000 Yeah.
02:18:00.000 It's a real famous spot.
02:18:01.000 I've never hunted.
02:18:02.000 I got a lot of friends that have, but I don't know enough about it.
02:18:04.000 How do I send it?
02:18:05.000 I don't know how to send it to Jamie.
02:18:06.000 Airdrop it.
02:18:07.000 Oh, okay.
02:18:10.000 What is like a world record mule deer?
02:18:12.000 I got to focus a long time to be able to do something like this.
02:18:16.000 No people found.
02:18:17.000 Turn your shit on, man.
02:18:18.000 Oh, there you are.
02:18:19.000 Sorry.
02:18:24.000 Go through?
02:18:25.000 It's gone.
02:18:26.000 What is a world record mule deer?
02:18:29.000 Oh, I don't know what the world record is.
02:18:30.000 I don't know what the biggest military is.
02:18:31.000 It's quite a bit bigger, right?
02:18:32.000 If you can get a real freaking giant...
02:18:34.000 Wow, that's a big bug.
02:18:35.000 No, that was nice.
02:18:36.000 Wow.
02:18:37.000 No, that was nice.
02:18:38.000 I've gotten one bigger in the past also.
02:18:40.000 Oh, no, I got one bigger in the past in a general unit one time.
02:18:44.000 But that's a limited draw unit.
02:18:47.000 And, dude, I'm sure we would have found a bigger one if we kept hanging around looking.
02:18:51.000 I was with Phelps, Jason Phelps.
02:18:52.000 And what do you think that measures in terms of inches?
02:18:55.000 Phelps measured it at 193. Wow.
02:19:00.000 What is the other one?
02:19:01.000 The other one you got on your media show, right?
02:19:03.000 Yeah, yeah, yeah.
02:19:04.000 Yeah, I saw that one.
02:19:04.000 That was a 200-inch deer.
02:19:06.000 Wow.
02:19:08.000 But man, you know.
02:19:09.000 But that's a deer that you could search for a deer like that your whole life.
02:19:13.000 I mean, I hunted mule deer for 20 years without getting a big one.
02:19:20.000 World record final score of 218. But you know the stupid thing?
02:19:24.000 That's Pope and Young.
02:19:25.000 What's the difference?
02:19:26.000 That's an archery kill.
02:19:27.000 Oh, okay.
02:19:28.000 Yeah, go to Boone and Crockett.
02:19:30.000 And then you get into...
02:19:30.000 You know what's funny about record books?
02:19:32.000 You get into biggest archery...
02:19:34.000 226. Okay.
02:19:36.000 You'll get into biggest archery, biggest rifle, and then biggest ever found.
02:19:41.000 And the real giants are shit that was found.
02:19:43.000 So they die off.
02:19:44.000 Yeah, like the biggest bighorn ever...
02:19:47.000 The biggest bighorn ever.
02:19:48.000 I kind of dog on the people that keep track of the bighorn scores, because the biggest bighorn ever was just found dead in a place called Wild Horse Island.
02:19:56.000 It's like, it's not even, it's an island in Flathead Lake in Montana.
02:20:00.000 You can't hunt it.
02:20:02.000 Okay?
02:20:03.000 The history of the island was, it was going to be like this utopia of Where this guy was going to have like a lead economist, a lead sociologist and shit, we're going to live on this island and solve all the world's problems.
02:20:15.000 Somehow over time became that there's like this little population of bighorns out there that you can't hunt, but they're wild.
02:20:21.000 I'm making little quotes.
02:20:22.000 They're wild.
02:20:23.000 And one of them died and it's the new world record bighorn.
02:20:27.000 And I'm like, kinda.
02:20:31.000 They're not like historically even from the, you know what I mean?
02:20:34.000 So anyways, when you get into record shit, like the biggest shit surprisingly is always shit found dead or got hit by a car.
02:20:40.000 Like hunters don't get the biggest stuff.
02:20:42.000 There might be some case to, there might be some case I'm not thinking of where, but like the biggest whitetail isn't the biggest whitetail hunted.
02:20:50.000 It's just shit that got found.
02:20:51.000 What's the biggest whitetail that was ever found?
02:20:53.000 It's in the 300s or something like that.
02:20:56.000 Jamie can find that.
02:20:57.000 Like some crazy ass non-typical.
02:20:59.000 Where was that?
02:20:59.000 I don't even remember.
02:21:00.000 Is that Canada?
02:21:01.000 I can't remember.
02:21:01.000 No, it was in the lower 48, I think.
02:21:04.000 The sheep hunting world is another bizarre subset world.
02:21:09.000 That's big money.
02:21:11.000 Whitetails is blue collar.
02:21:13.000 What?
02:21:14.000 The hole in the horn buck.
02:21:15.000 Is that a farm buck?
02:21:17.000 No, no, no, no, no.
02:21:18.000 That's a buck, man.
02:21:19.000 Because it looks like a farm buck, right?
02:21:20.000 No.
02:21:20.000 I believe you.
02:21:21.000 It looks like a farm buck.
02:21:23.000 Found dead by railroad workers.
02:21:25.000 The deer is the king of kings.
02:21:30.000 Got a bullet hole through his horn.
02:21:31.000 Does it really?
02:21:33.000 Wow.
02:21:33.000 Or someone shot it.
02:21:34.000 Look at the size of that thing.
02:21:36.000 That's so ridiculous.
02:21:37.000 That's the Broder buck.
02:21:39.000 355 and 2 eighths.
02:21:41.000 But when you get into non-typical, the score is a lot higher.
02:21:45.000 You know, we were talking about faking bucks.
02:21:47.000 The way they score bucks is so...
02:21:48.000 One thing that's so goofy about how you score bucks is a buck can have its antlers count against itself.
02:21:53.000 You're familiar with this?
02:21:54.000 No.
02:21:55.000 So...
02:21:56.000 There's typical and non-typical.
02:21:58.000 Typical means very symmetrical.
02:22:00.000 And for whatever reason, no one I know that likes the hunt takes this, no one I personally hang out with takes any of this seriously, but they view that a typical should be really symmetrical.
02:22:12.000 But it has to be super atypical to be counted as a non-typical.
02:22:18.000 So if you have a buck, let's say you have a buck that has five points on one side and six points on the other side, and you measure up all the inches of antler, they'll actually deduct the difference off the score because it's not symmetrical.
02:22:33.000 So the thing will grow antler that they don't actually count.
02:22:37.000 But if it's so freakishly different, if it hits a threshold of asymmetry, Then its asymmetry counts in its favor.
02:22:46.000 So it can actually happen that you could feasibly kill a buck and break and take a pair of pliers or a hammer and knock a point off its horns and it actually becomes a higher scoring deer.
02:22:58.000 Oh, that's so dumb.
02:23:00.000 Isn't that dumb?
02:23:01.000 It's ridiculous.
02:23:02.000 That seems dumb, right?
02:23:03.000 It's ridiculous.
02:23:05.000 Isn't that a weird thing, though?
02:23:07.000 One of the things that I really admire about John Dudley, he doesn't score his bucks.
02:23:11.000 Won't get him scored.
02:23:12.000 Won't get him scored.
02:23:13.000 Won't score his bulls.
02:23:14.000 Won't score his bucks.
02:23:15.000 He goes, I just think it's gross.
02:23:17.000 He goes, it's a great mature buck.
02:23:19.000 It's a great mature bull.
02:23:21.000 And John is one of those guys that has an enormous farm that he...
02:23:27.000 It caters to whitetails.
02:23:29.000 I mean, he does the whole thing.
02:23:30.000 He does food plots.
02:23:31.000 He does controlled burns.
02:23:33.000 I mean, he details it.
02:23:35.000 If you go to Knock On Archery, his Instagram page, well, obviously, John teaches, right?
02:23:41.000 So he teaches archery.
02:23:42.000 He also teaches tactics on how to hunt.
02:23:45.000 These big bucks and what he does in terms of how he develops the habitat and how he doesn't go in under certain winds.
02:23:54.000 And he rides in on an electric bike so he doesn't leave his scent when he walks.
02:23:59.000 He's very, very serious.
02:24:01.000 He's obsessive.
02:24:02.000 Oh, he's obsessive.
02:24:03.000 He moved to Iowa specifically to hunt bucks.
02:24:06.000 That's why he moved there.
02:24:08.000 He saved up all his money when he was working at Matthews and he got a piece of land and he started developing it for archery hunting and documented the whole thing and obsessed with it.
02:24:19.000 I mean, you can't talk to him during that time of the year.
02:24:23.000 He's in a fucking tree stand, period.
02:24:25.000 And he'll get like a hit list buck.
02:24:29.000 Like, that he has photos of these bucks.
02:24:31.000 I don't think he names them.
02:24:32.000 He might name them.
02:24:33.000 I'm not sure.
02:24:33.000 You can't not name them or else everything's that one buck.
02:24:36.000 Right.
02:24:36.000 Yeah.
02:24:38.000 We were naming bulls the other day and we just went from one, just so we knew what we were talking about.
02:24:42.000 Like, the first one was Uno.
02:24:46.000 That's a good way to do it.
02:24:48.000 People dog on naming them, but you go spend a day hunting where you're watching a couple bucks, and you're going to start referring to them in some way that you can be like, there's that one buck over there, and then that other buck over there.
02:25:04.000 Eventually you're like, you know, the three by five.
02:25:06.000 Right, right, right.
02:25:07.000 Somehow, it's like normal communication that you give them a name, but man, people have a heyday with it.
02:25:14.000 And they get clever with it.
02:25:15.000 Yeah.
02:25:16.000 So, I do like the fact that John doesn't measure them, though.
02:25:20.000 Yeah.
02:25:20.000 I used to think it was distasteful.
02:25:23.000 Even though my dad measured deer.
02:25:25.000 I grew up around measuring deer.
02:25:26.000 People would bring their deer to my dad's house and he'd give you an official score.
02:25:31.000 But I feel like I used to overthink it.
02:25:37.000 And I overthought it to the point where I thought it was distasteful.
02:25:41.000 But then I really like mule deer.
02:25:46.000 I It's the only thing I have that I've ever measured was mule deer.
02:25:51.000 And it just is a way to, I don't know, I'm talking to other people.
02:25:54.000 You never measured any of your bulls?
02:25:55.000 No.
02:25:56.000 Really?
02:25:56.000 Yanni measured one of them one time, but I don't really have any bulls that people would look at.
02:26:05.000 I have one bull that people always are like, what's that bull score?
02:26:08.000 And Yanni measured it, and when I tell people what Yanni measured, they always say that he must have screwed it up.
02:26:14.000 I don't know that he did, but that's the thing everybody says.
02:26:16.000 He must have fucked that up.
02:26:17.000 Is that the one that you got in Washington State on the television show?
02:26:20.000 Yeah, that's a big one.
02:26:21.000 That's the only bull I have where people ask me how big it was.
02:26:23.000 But I got mule deer that people ask.
02:26:24.000 How big was it?
02:26:26.000 Yanni says it was 340. And everybody's like, dude, that's a 360 bull.
02:26:31.000 Whatever.
02:26:31.000 Yeah, he fucked up.
02:26:32.000 That's what everybody says.
02:26:34.000 I don't even know enough about it.
02:26:36.000 I got one of the guys I work with, Corey, man.
02:26:39.000 He said, I'm going to come over and measure that bull.
02:26:41.000 I think you should measure it.
02:26:43.000 It looks a little bigger than that, but it doesn't matter.
02:26:45.000 It's an amazing bull.
02:26:46.000 Yeah, it doesn't, but it's fun.
02:26:50.000 And I don't have to worry about, if someone thinks that it breeds some level of disrespect, if I disrespect mule deer, I don't know what respecting them looks like.
02:27:04.000 No, it's not.
02:27:06.000 There is a thing, though, that people do where they become obsessed with the number only.
02:27:11.000 Sure.
02:27:11.000 That does get weird.
02:27:12.000 But that does things with anything that's quantifiable.
02:27:15.000 You know, billionaires get obsessed with a guy.
02:27:18.000 You know, you have $100 billion.
02:27:19.000 The guy has $130 billion.
02:27:21.000 You get obsessed with beating him.
02:27:23.000 You know, they get obsessed with their rankings on the world's richest man thing.
02:27:27.000 I'm sure they do.
02:27:29.000 I don't think Elon does, but I think a lot of those guys do.
02:27:31.000 They get obsessed with that number.
02:27:32.000 They want to be the number one guy.
02:27:34.000 It's a number thing with people.
02:27:36.000 Yeah, I think that's true.
02:27:39.000 The writer Pat Durkin, he used to be the editor at Deer and Deer Hunting and covers wildlife and everything.
02:27:48.000 He had said how...
02:27:49.000 He's got a couple quotes.
02:27:51.000 One is, big deer make people stupid.
02:27:54.000 And two is, he was telling me one time about...
02:27:58.000 He used to cover a lot of big buck killers, okay?
02:28:01.000 So in his job, he used to have to track down, like if someone killed a new big buck, like they chase the story.
02:28:06.000 They'll pay for rights to tell the story.
02:28:09.000 And he was always dismayed on a lot of these guys that would just consistently kill these big bucks.
02:28:15.000 He was always surprised.
02:28:16.000 He goes, they can't.
02:28:17.000 If you ask them what kind of tree it was they were sitting in, they can't tell you.
02:28:21.000 Wow.
02:28:23.000 You know, and he's like, that changed his view on some of the real, like, consistent big buck guys.
02:28:31.000 It's a subtle thing, but he's like, they...
02:28:35.000 He was like, somehow, it surprised him that you could...
02:28:40.000 Be so proficient at that, but not be like what he would regard as a woodsman.
02:28:45.000 Yeah.
02:28:46.000 I've always been impressed with woodsmen.
02:28:48.000 People can tell you, oh, over there by the cedars, you see that juniper?
02:28:51.000 I'm like, what?
02:28:52.000 Which one's what?
02:28:53.000 How the fuck do you know?
02:28:55.000 What are you doing?
02:28:55.000 Yeah, I can't remember.
02:28:58.000 I'm not doing a terrible disservice to how he put it, but it was basically that it knocked it down in his mind that you could get so good at it without having what he regarded as the fundamentals.
02:29:10.000 An overall comprehensive knowledge of the rules.
02:29:13.000 And it's like you could kind of get it.
02:29:15.000 You could get that and not get the things that he always grew up thinking you needed to have that.
02:29:22.000 Did you get to John's page?
02:29:23.000 John Dudley's Instagram?
02:29:25.000 Yeah, I had, but the video, and the only thing that I could see was there's a video, and it was taking off the picture.
02:29:31.000 Just show some of the photos, because he's got some cool bucks, one of them that he just shot a couple of days ago.
02:29:39.000 He hunts all season long until he can get one.
02:29:44.000 That's a mule deer.
02:29:45.000 When I click on that, the picture goes away.
02:29:47.000 Oh, it's one of those things.
02:29:49.000 It's a video, yeah.
02:29:50.000 There are some, though, that he's got from the far right of that is the one that he shot.
02:29:55.000 Yeah.
02:29:56.000 That's a video?
02:29:57.000 Yeah.
02:29:57.000 So that's the buck.
02:29:58.000 But there you go.
02:29:59.000 This is one that he just shot.
02:30:02.000 And so, again, John will be out there day in, day out.
02:30:08.000 A month plus at a time.
02:30:10.000 I don't know how long the Iowa season is.
02:30:13.000 But he gets these big...
02:30:15.000 And he's self-filming everything.
02:30:17.000 He films everything.
02:30:18.000 He has the whole setup up there with video cameras on arms.
02:30:22.000 And he does them all himself.
02:30:24.000 Which complicates things, right?
02:30:25.000 Because he has to get the buck in focus.
02:30:28.000 And then once he gets the buck in focus...
02:30:31.000 Yeah, that's okay.
02:30:33.000 Make that large so he can see it.
02:30:36.000 So this is the thing with John is that he's like really obsessed with education as well.
02:30:42.000 He explains what he does and how he sets everything up and when he goes in.
02:30:47.000 Give a little volume on this.
02:30:51.000 I'm just bumping more deer trying to get in for the morning hunts than what it's worth because the evening feed is the majority of the movement.
02:31:00.000 So I'm coming in here 11, 12 o'clock in the morning when everything's not out in the open.
02:31:06.000 And I'm getting on a food source.
02:31:08.000 These are blinds that we built this year through an exercise, a brand new field.
02:31:13.000 But what's unbelievable about these next couple hunts for me is these are critical hunts because a family member of mine waited five years, drew a tag, came in.
02:31:25.000 I hunted with him during the rut.
02:31:27.000 We rattled in an awesome buck and he made What we thought was an awesome shot.
02:31:32.000 Quartering away, it looked a little bit high.
02:31:35.000 And just like what every bow hunter is eventually going to have to live through, we thought we lost this buck.
02:31:41.000 We could not find blood.
02:31:42.000 We looked and looked and grid searched.
02:31:44.000 He went back home.
02:31:45.000 He's been sick about it and then here we are only a few days before gun season and I just got a picture of this buck with the injury clearly visible.
02:31:55.000 I am going to focus on this deer.
02:31:58.000 It's a deer that I don't think is going to make through the winter with this injury.
02:32:02.000 So this is going to be critical going in e-powered as quiet as I can with my backpack.
02:32:09.000 Middle of the day.
02:32:10.000 It's the name of the game.
02:32:11.000 Let's see what happens.
02:32:12.000 He wound up getting that buck.
02:32:13.000 So this is part of this story.
02:32:16.000 He did find that buck and, you know, the right shoulder was all fucked up and destroyed.
02:32:20.000 It was pus.
02:32:21.000 Got one lung.
02:32:22.000 That arrow got one lung.
02:32:24.000 And this fucking buck was still out there rutting.
02:32:26.000 This year I found a buddy of mine that hit a buck that he couldn't find and was worried sick about it, and I found that buck playing grab ass with some does.
02:32:34.000 Wow.
02:32:34.000 Yeah, he was real happy when I told him that.
02:32:36.000 John, when he found another buck that he shot this year in Oklahoma, he pulled a broadhead out of its shoulder.
02:32:43.000 Like, as he was butchering the buck, someone else had shot it with some...
02:32:47.000 He called it like a Walmart $3 special broadhead.
02:32:50.000 It was like a cheap broadhead, but it was stuck in the buck shoulder.
02:32:53.000 No pus, no infection, no nothing.
02:32:57.000 We used to always think that losing them...
02:32:59.000 We always thought that when you lost them, they died.
02:33:01.000 But a lot of them...
02:33:03.000 A lot of them you lose because it ain't dead.
02:33:05.000 It's crazy how tough they are.
02:33:06.000 It's really amazing.
02:33:08.000 We always thought it was a death sentence.
02:33:11.000 How about that one famous photo where the arrow is through the body and then bone has grown around the arrow?
02:33:19.000 Oh yeah, that's a crazy picture.
02:33:21.000 It is the wildest picture because the arrow is embedded in this deer's body and the body grows bone around the arrow, which is so crazy.
02:33:33.000 Like, look how deep that arrow goes.
02:33:35.000 You would absolutely assume that that's a dead animal, but nope.
02:33:39.000 Look how the body puts bone around it.
02:33:42.000 Have I ever showed you my elk vertebra that's encased a broadhead?
02:33:47.000 No.
02:33:48.000 Yeah, it's got a muzzy broadhead grown into it.
02:33:50.000 Wow.
02:33:51.000 Yeah, it built like it just grew around it.
02:33:53.000 It's probably about, it's not even a quarter inch from the spine.
02:33:56.000 There's another one.
02:33:56.000 Look at that one.
02:33:57.000 That is crazy.
02:33:59.000 It's crazy because if you look at that shot, you're like, oh, well, that's in the boiler room.
02:34:03.000 That's a dead animal, but nope.
02:34:05.000 Jim Bridger carried a broadhead in his shoulder for two years.
02:34:09.000 Really?
02:34:09.000 Yeah.
02:34:10.000 Wow.
02:34:11.000 When he had it cut out, they say it was the first Western-style surgery in the American West, I think, is when Jim Bridger had the broadhead cut out of his shoulder.
02:34:20.000 Look at that one in its head.
02:34:22.000 Oh, Jesus Christ.
02:34:24.000 My friend Brian Stevens shot a black bear through the center of its forehead.
02:34:29.000 Killed it instantly.
02:34:30.000 With a bow?
02:34:31.000 Yeah.
02:34:31.000 On purpose?
02:34:33.000 He said the bear was so close to him that it was one of those things where if he didn't shoot it, it was going to find him and it was within this range of like 15 feet where he was worried that it could possibly rush him.
02:34:46.000 And so he was at full draw and he found the shot and he had confidence in his equipment and he's an amazing archer.
02:34:52.000 So he just center punched it right through the head.
02:34:55.000 I have a photo of that.
02:34:56.000 You want to see that?
02:34:57.000 Yeah.
02:34:57.000 I killed a boar from like this year with my bow from me to you.
02:35:03.000 And I did like within the same thing.
02:35:05.000 Like something I would never do, which is just right into his forehead.
02:35:07.000 But I just shot him right through his forehead because he was just from me to you away.
02:35:10.000 Wow.
02:35:11.000 That's crazy.
02:35:12.000 Through the forehead.
02:35:14.000 I'd hit a different one, and that one run off squealing, and that boar came in so hot, hearing all that squealing going on, and almost got to me, and then stopped right there.
02:35:25.000 And yeah, I would never advise someone doing that, but at that distance, it just doesn't.
02:35:30.000 Well, that's like a frontal shot.
02:35:31.000 There was another thing that I saw on your show.
02:35:33.000 You took a frontal shot when you were in New Mexico, right?
02:35:37.000 Yep.
02:35:37.000 That's a risky shot, right?
02:35:40.000 That's a tricky shot.
02:35:41.000 I used to think it was a no-no, but...
02:35:47.000 I used to think it was a no-no, but in a lot of conversations and talking to Phelps and other guys, I think that under the right circumstances...
02:36:04.000 It speaks for itself, man.
02:36:05.000 Yeah.
02:36:06.000 Dudley feels the same way.
02:36:08.000 He shot a lot of them that way.
02:36:09.000 Under the right circumstance, it's just unbelievably deadly.
02:36:12.000 And there's plenty of shots that under the right circumstances are deadly, but I used to think it was just categorically a no-no.
02:36:21.000 But I've had my mind changed by a lot of conversations with a lot of people, and I've seen it twice now, where it's just done properly is just deadlier than a heart shot.
02:36:37.000 Yeah, there's a lot of stuff there, right?
02:36:39.000 You got to get it like right where the beard touches.
02:36:42.000 It's like as long as you don't hit the top of the ribcage.
02:36:46.000 Yeah.
02:36:46.000 And it is, man.
02:36:47.000 I can't find it.
02:36:48.000 It's in there somewhere.
02:36:49.000 I think that there's great arguments against it where you just don't have as much room to fudge.
02:36:56.000 But I think like at certain distances...
02:37:00.000 I think at certain differences with like certain levels of proficiency, it strikes me as like incredibly deadly.
02:37:06.000 Well, yours was perfect.
02:37:08.000 Yeah.
02:37:08.000 He took a step.
02:37:09.000 Yeah.
02:37:09.000 And that was like 20 yards, right?
02:37:11.000 I think it was 24 yards.
02:37:13.000 Yeah.
02:37:13.000 So nice and close where you don't really, you're not concerned.
02:37:18.000 I was already drawn back.
02:37:19.000 Yeah.
02:37:19.000 Nice and close.
02:37:21.000 And just was like, man, there's no way I'm going to miss.
02:37:25.000 There's no way I'm not going to do this.
02:37:26.000 Have you paid attention to Joel Turner?
02:37:30.000 Uh-uh.
02:37:30.000 Do you know about Joel Turner?
02:37:32.000 No.
02:37:32.000 Well, you know, everyone always talks about buck fever and you talk about, you know, the moment.
02:37:39.000 The way I just try to describe to people how crazy bow hunting is, is you might, and most things where you get good at them, you can practice them.
02:37:50.000 But you don't really get a lot of practice.
02:37:53.000 I think you may be telling me about this one time over the phone.
02:37:55.000 You don't get a lot of practice in actually pulling the trigger, actually releasing the arrow.
02:38:01.000 Because especially if you're elk hunting once a year, you have like one moment a year.
02:38:06.000 So you have all this anxiety built up into this one moment.
02:38:09.000 And there's two different types of...
02:38:13.000 There's controlled shooting and then there's what's called an open loop system.
02:38:19.000 There's a closed loop system and an open loop system.
02:38:21.000 And you want to operate in a closed loop system where you have complete control of the shot from the beginning to the end.
02:38:28.000 It's never...
02:38:29.000 It's never just like...
02:38:30.000 It goes off.
02:38:31.000 And the way you do that is to have a mantra in your mind.
02:38:36.000 And to repeat that mantra so you're in the present moment through the entire SHOT process.
02:38:41.000 Joel Turner has a website called Shot IQ and Joel Turner was a SWAT instructor and so he's very aware of high pressure situations where people tend to panic.
02:38:54.000 Or people tend to flinch, and this is the best way to avoid doing that, to avoid getting yourself into an open-loop system.
02:39:03.000 Now, an open-loop system would be like swinging a baseball bat.
02:39:05.000 Like, once you're swinging that bat, that bat is swinging, right?
02:39:09.000 You're just going, ah!
02:39:10.000 Let it go.
02:39:11.000 A closed-loop system, in the closed-loop system, you could stop at any moment.
02:39:16.000 You could let down at any moment.
02:39:19.000 You're in complete control of the situation.
02:39:20.000 You're not overcome with anxiety.
02:39:22.000 Obviously, you're very anxious, right?
02:39:24.000 It's a big moment.
02:39:25.000 But in order to stay, to keep that in the conscious mind, he recommends and he teaches how you use a mantra.
02:39:36.000 He has a whole process in the draw cycle, and then he has a whole process during the shot cycle.
02:39:44.000 How long is the mantra?
02:39:45.000 It's pretty quick.
02:39:46.000 You know, it's like drawback and aim, get it done, watch it to keep it.
02:39:53.000 I used to have a sticker on the riser of my bow that my dad put there when I was a kid that said, stay calm, pick a spot.
02:39:58.000 That's good, too.
02:39:59.000 Yeah.
02:40:00.000 And if you could say, stay calm, pick a spot.
02:40:02.000 I never remembered to read that sticker.
02:40:04.000 That's the problem, right?
02:40:05.000 But it's that moment while it's happening, it's like, ah!
02:40:10.000 It's a huge thing, man.
02:40:12.000 And if it doesn't happen a lot, like if you're a guy like Remy Warren that shoots a lot of things with your bow, you don't think about it like that because you do it so...
02:40:18.000 Or Cam Haynes, a great example.
02:40:21.000 He hits the trigger.
02:40:24.000 Whereas Joel Turner recommends a surprise release.
02:40:27.000 And during a surprise release, you're pulling through the shot and the shot breaks.
02:40:31.000 And you are aware of the process the entire time, but there will be no flinching because you literally don't know when it's going off, you know, which is ideal.
02:40:39.000 And so his whole system, he has a very comprehensive system on his website that's designed to inform your mind and to train your mind to be able to stay controlled during these very high-pressure situations.
02:40:54.000 Yeah.
02:40:55.000 Yeah, it's very, very beneficial.
02:40:57.000 I wish that I would have gotten on to...
02:41:00.000 There was a time in my life when it would have been good to get on to that because it used to happen to me.
02:41:06.000 And I'm not saying it doesn't anymore.
02:41:08.000 But I've found that just so much exposure and then a decreasing...
02:41:21.000 A decreasing sense of, like, if I don't do this, it'll never happen.
02:41:26.000 Right, right, right, right, right.
02:41:27.000 There's that.
02:41:28.000 That, I realize, like, this is your big chance it'll never happen again.
02:41:31.000 Right.
02:41:31.000 If you don't get this, you'll never...
02:41:32.000 Do you know what I mean?
02:41:33.000 And, like, getting through that, I've gotten through it not by...
02:41:37.000 I've gotten through that sense not by overcoming it through any sort of game I've done with myself.
02:41:43.000 I've gotten through that sense of just, like, long-term exposure.
02:41:48.000 Hunting with my kid now is funny because one of the biggest things I'm trying to explain all the time, and my daughter would be, well, yesterday she turned old enough to hunt, but would be just trying to suppress the excitement.
02:42:03.000 Yeah.
02:42:03.000 Stay calm.
02:42:04.000 Trying to suppress the excitement.
02:42:06.000 Try to teach them just to be calm all the time.
02:42:09.000 I remember when I was on that hunt with you, the first hunt, I was in the middle of range.
02:42:15.000 I had the...
02:42:19.000 I was like lying down on the ground and I had the deer in the sight and I was thinking of squeezing the trigger but I was realizing that I was letting my heart race too much and then it was there was a little too much movement and I remember I had to go hold on And I stopped myself,
02:42:38.000 and I just calmed myself down for a second or two and settled down.
02:42:43.000 But I recognized that I was in this sort of panic state.
02:42:45.000 I was like, don't, don't, don't, don't, don't, don't do that.
02:42:48.000 Don't let that overwhelm you.
02:42:49.000 And thank goodness I did.
02:42:51.000 I probably would have fucking shot a mile over its head.
02:42:53.000 You know what a great thing?
02:42:55.000 You can't do this with archery, but the thing that I've done with my boy is, I've done it in a couple circumstances.
02:43:01.000 I make him dry fire on something.
02:43:04.000 Mmm, yeah, that's good.
02:43:05.000 Like one time, he had a doe tag.
02:43:08.000 We're trying to fill his white-tailed doe tag.
02:43:10.000 And whatever happened, I didn't like what I was seeing as he was getting ready to shoot.
02:43:14.000 I'm like, no, no, no, no, no.
02:43:15.000 And I wasn't worried about the opportunity passing.
02:43:18.000 And he dry-fired twice.
02:43:20.000 And I'm like, now we're going to put a round.
02:43:22.000 I could just see that he was a little wound up.
02:43:24.000 Yeah, yeah.
02:43:26.000 And that was real helpful.
02:43:27.000 But there's no...
02:43:28.000 That's a good way to ruin your bow.
02:43:30.000 Yeah, that's not good with a bow.
02:43:32.000 But if you think about, like, any other thing that you do that you get good at, you have time to do it.
02:43:38.000 That's the thing with fighting, too.
02:43:39.000 When people have never fought before, the first fight that they ever have is fucking filled with anxiety.
02:43:45.000 Dude, I could be in a 10-minute fight and I probably wouldn't even ever register that it was happening.
02:43:50.000 You can't even believe it's really happening.
02:43:51.000 But, I mean, I'm talking about, like, a competition.
02:43:54.000 So competition is even more crazy because you're ready for it.
02:43:58.000 And then you're thinking it's going to come in an hour.
02:44:00.000 Like, when am I up?
02:44:01.000 I'm up in two hours.
02:44:03.000 And then you're just laying around the dressing room and you have to stay loose so you're hitting pads a little bit and you're warming up and you're stretching and you're getting ready.
02:44:11.000 And then all of a sudden, are you ready?
02:44:13.000 Are you ready?
02:44:14.000 Fight!
02:44:15.000 You're like, ahhh!
02:44:16.000 But the guys who do it a lot, they get to this point where they can perform at an elite level even in the most high pressure situation.
02:44:26.000 But that's accentuated by experience.
02:44:30.000 The more experience you have, like a guy who has 50 fights has an enormous advantage over a guy who has two or three fights.
02:44:36.000 Because you've just been there so many times before and you can stay calm.
02:44:40.000 You know that you can perform under those bright lights.
02:44:43.000 For UFC fighters, it's a really big moment to make that debut.
02:44:47.000 And a lot of them have had a bunch of professional fights before.
02:44:50.000 We'll get guys that have had like 15, 20 fights outside of the organization.
02:44:54.000 Then they get to the UFC and then they can't believe it.
02:44:57.000 They're in the fucking octagon and they clamp that door shut.
02:45:01.000 And then they look around and then, you know, they see Herb Dean, are you ready?
02:45:05.000 Are you ready?
02:45:05.000 Like, oh my god, is this really fucking happening?
02:45:08.000 That, I mean, whenever there's a thing that you're preparing for for so long and then it's one moment.
02:45:13.000 But with a fight, at least you can kind of move around and get loosened up.
02:45:18.000 You know, you can move around, you can avoid, you have skills.
02:45:23.000 When you're drawing back on an animal, if you've never done that before, that moment is just like...
02:45:27.000 It's just one moment.
02:45:28.000 It's just one thing.
02:45:30.000 You release one arrow.
02:45:31.000 And it's so overwhelmingly anxiety-ridden for people.
02:45:35.000 I think that the real...
02:45:37.000 When you spend time around really exceptional, really talented hunters...
02:45:44.000 They're also able to do what they need to do in very compressed time frames and do unexpected stuff.
02:45:52.000 Do you know what I mean?
02:45:55.000 They can make decisions.
02:45:56.000 Yeah, they fall outside of, things fall outside of practice.
02:45:59.000 Yes.
02:46:00.000 And that's like, I feel for a large measure that's an experience thing as well.
02:46:05.000 I think so.
02:46:06.000 I think that applies to almost everything.
02:46:07.000 It certainly applies to stand-up.
02:46:09.000 It applies to stand-up comedy, like if something happens outside the norm.
02:46:13.000 I remember when I was coming up in the early days, one time I was doing really well on stage and I knocked my drink over and I didn't address it.
02:46:22.000 And then I bombed.
02:46:23.000 Because like everyone could tell, I freaked out that I knocked my drink over but I didn't say anything about it.
02:46:27.000 And then I lost my composure and then all of a sudden it was downhill.
02:46:30.000 Like I had all this confidence.
02:46:32.000 Everything was going well.
02:46:33.000 People were laughing.
02:46:34.000 It was going pretty good.
02:46:35.000 But I had only been doing comedy like a year and a half or something like that.
02:46:39.000 It was very sketchy.
02:46:40.000 Very touch and go.
02:46:42.000 I see that when I'm watching a comedian and I see him deal with a heckler for an unexpected thing.
02:46:50.000 I'll sometimes think like, oh, they really are smart.
02:46:56.000 Because you watched it happen.
02:47:00.000 Yes.
02:47:01.000 You watch someone say something, you know it's not rehearsed, and they respond in a way that you're so jealous of that they would have ever thought to have said that.
02:47:08.000 They're like, oh shit, their mind is fast.
02:47:10.000 It's not just a routine.
02:47:12.000 Yes.
02:47:12.000 They've also done it thousands of times.
02:47:15.000 The thing about stand-up is when you get in the groove, you're performing.
02:47:20.000 For me, I'm performing multiple times every week.
02:47:23.000 That's the only way you get in a groove.
02:47:25.000 I was on a plane yesterday with Ron White.
02:47:28.000 And we were talking about that.
02:47:29.000 And he was talking about how long it took him to get back into his groove from COVID. You know, because COVID he took like eight months off and then he started getting back into the groove when the show started opening up again.
02:47:41.000 And he goes, you know, and Ron is such a fucking character.
02:47:43.000 He goes, for a while I was doing a Ron White impression on stage.
02:47:47.000 I was like, what do I sound like?
02:47:48.000 What do I do?
02:47:49.000 He goes, I was surprised at how long it took me to get back into the fucking groove.
02:47:53.000 He had to just do a bunch of shows and then get loose.
02:47:58.000 We were talking about how some comics, something happens And they forget whatever it was that used to make them good.
02:48:07.000 And then they can't do it anymore.
02:48:10.000 They lose that fucking voodoo.
02:48:13.000 They lose that connection that they have to what they do.
02:48:18.000 And again, a lot of it is performance and it's anxiety.
02:48:21.000 And there's a lot of things that are at play.
02:48:24.000 But I've done a lot of shit, man.
02:48:27.000 And I think that hunting is probably one of the most anxiety-ridden things I've ever done.
02:48:33.000 Like, where you just have to wrestle with your nervous system.
02:48:39.000 Where you have to, like, shut the fuck up and stay calm.
02:48:42.000 You have to have that, like, dominant conscious mind that goes, no, no, no.
02:48:48.000 Like, little weird thoughts are coming to your head.
02:48:49.000 Like, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope.
02:48:51.000 No room for you.
02:48:53.000 Stay in the groove.
02:48:54.000 Stay in the groove.
02:48:55.000 But if you don't have experience doing that, I can imagine, for some people, they're having a fucking heart attack.
02:49:00.000 They're hyperventilating.
02:49:02.000 They can barely keep their arms straight.
02:49:04.000 Yeah.
02:49:05.000 I've worried about, as I've lost some of that, I've worried about what that means.
02:49:15.000 Well, it's just experience, I think.
02:49:17.000 Yeah, or I'm like, man, maybe I'm getting lower T. No, it's probably like the same thing that happens when you do stand-up a lot.
02:49:24.000 Yeah, I don't...
02:49:26.000 Like all that, just all the emotions, man, like the dread and the, you know, the worried about dicking it up and the, it'll never, I'll never, it's like so much more, it's just like I'm just so much more calm now.
02:49:38.000 But you know what I wanted, the thing I wanted to ask you about when you brought up performing, I've always wanted to ask you this.
02:49:43.000 Do you get where, do you ever start feeling like way overexposed?
02:49:49.000 I don't mean like too much media, but do you ever feel, like when you come off doing shows, Do you want to go crawl into a hole?
02:49:58.000 Or do you want to go out with people you don't know?
02:50:01.000 Most of the time when I come off stage, I want to go relax somewhere with friends, get something to eat.
02:50:06.000 Or I want to go home and write.
02:50:08.000 Those are the things I like to do.
02:50:09.000 I like to go home and watch TV, watch a documentary, or write.
02:50:14.000 Yeah.
02:50:14.000 Do you ever feel like...
02:50:18.000 Like, people just seeing, like, you've laid out too much of yourself and shit like that?
02:50:23.000 Oh, for sure, yeah.
02:50:24.000 I clearly have.
02:50:27.000 I remember one time, this was a couple years ago, you told me you wish you were 10% less famous.
02:50:31.000 Yeah.
02:50:32.000 That's what I was trying to do with this Spotify thing, man.
02:50:35.000 I was like, because Jamie was panicking because at the beginning of the Spotify thing, our numbers dropped way lower because now we're exclusive to this one platform.
02:50:45.000 We used to be on iTunes and YouTube, and then all of a sudden we're just on Spotify.
02:50:50.000 And he's like, oh, there's so many less people listening.
02:50:52.000 I'm like, good.
02:50:53.000 Good.
02:50:54.000 Let's keep it that way.
02:50:55.000 I want to be 10% less famous.
02:50:57.000 Yeah, unfortunately that didn't happen.
02:50:59.000 The opposite happened.
02:51:00.000 But it's, yeah, there's a lot going on with something like that.
02:51:05.000 We have that many people scrutinizing your words and all the shit you do.
02:51:10.000 But that's also what I do, you know?
02:51:12.000 So it's like you get more accustomed to it, and then your level of what you're comfortable with changes.
02:51:17.000 Yeah.
02:51:18.000 I don't do many live shows, but when I do do live shows, man, it just leaves me feeling like...
02:51:25.000 I enjoy it, but holy shit.
02:51:27.000 It's a lot.
02:51:28.000 Yeah.
02:51:29.000 Holy shit.
02:51:30.000 It just makes you want to just like, I don't know.
02:51:32.000 Well, there's so many things going on, especially you're doing a live podcast.
02:51:36.000 You have all these people on the stage with you.
02:51:38.000 You're navigating this conversation.
02:51:40.000 You're sort of orchestrating it.
02:51:42.000 And then if someone's trying to talk while you're talking, you're like, but I got this thing I got to get out of my head.
02:51:48.000 And then...
02:51:49.000 It's like you've got to know when to talk and when not to talk, and also you have a thought that comes across.
02:51:55.000 And what people don't realize is one of the difficult things about podcasting is when you have a thought in your head and you're trying to get it out and someone else is talking, it's very difficult to maintain that thought.
02:52:05.000 Which is one of the reasons why people talk over each other.
02:52:08.000 They just jump in.
02:52:08.000 They're like, I gotta get this out, and I can't help myself.
02:52:11.000 And you get better at maintaining those thoughts without interjecting and interrupting someone else's thought.
02:52:18.000 Because if you do interrupt that person, that person will be a less...
02:52:22.000 Less enjoyable guest.
02:52:24.000 They won't be as good because they won't be at their best.
02:52:26.000 Oh, yeah, yeah.
02:52:27.000 So you have to figure out, like, when do I talk?
02:52:29.000 Like, what is the right amount of listening?
02:52:32.000 What's the right amount of talking?
02:52:33.000 And for some people, that shit can be exhausting.
02:52:36.000 Yeah, it's hard for me.
02:52:37.000 And when you're done, you're like...
02:52:39.000 Well, also, you're doing it in front of, like, a theater.
02:52:41.000 I never do that.
02:52:42.000 I never do podcasts in front of, like, live...
02:52:44.000 I mean, I've done a couple in my day.
02:52:47.000 Only one of my own show that I ever do in front of a live audience.
02:52:51.000 And I decided it's a different thing.
02:52:53.000 It's like, what people like about this podcast is that it's a conversation.
02:52:56.000 If you do it in front of a live audience, especially if you're doing it with comedians, then they're going to play to the crowd.
02:53:00.000 Oh, yeah.
02:53:01.000 What's funny is you do something kind of irrational where...
02:53:04.000 There's a very small fraction of the people that will experience it.
02:53:08.000 This is why I don't record them and release them anymore because there's such a small percentage of the actual listeners that are sitting there in that moment right then, but you are so beholden to them and catering to them because you have to look them in the eye.
02:53:23.000 Yeah.
02:53:25.000 And when it's distant and digital...
02:53:31.000 You don't feel that obligation that you feel when you got like...
02:53:38.000 They like bought a ticket and shit, man.
02:53:40.000 Right.
02:53:41.000 You better...
02:53:42.000 These are more valuable than anything else, right?
02:53:46.000 That screws with you.
02:53:47.000 It's also kind of cool for them if you don't release it.
02:53:51.000 If you don't release it, it's like this is a moment that's just a shared moment with everybody in that room, and it's very unique, and you leave there going, that was a lot of fun.
02:54:01.000 Yeah, I don't think I'll do those.
02:54:04.000 I haven't done...
02:54:07.000 I did like one post-COVID live show, and we did one in Billings.
02:54:11.000 And our audience broke the theater's record on alcohol consumption, which had been previously held by Rob Schneider.
02:54:20.000 Oh, that's crazy!
02:54:22.000 I just saw Rob Schneider this weekend.
02:54:24.000 I went to see Adam Sandler and Rob Schneider opened for him.
02:54:27.000 Tell him his alcohol record at the Alberta Bear Theater in Billings has been shattered.
02:54:33.000 How big is the theater in Billings?
02:54:35.000 I can't remember.
02:54:36.000 I mean, it's sub-2,000.
02:54:38.000 So what is the biggest theater you guys have ever done your shows at?
02:54:40.000 1,600.
02:54:41.000 Oh, wow.
02:54:43.000 We sold out a 1,600 in Minneapolis.
02:54:47.000 Nice.
02:54:48.000 Isn't that kind of crazy?
02:54:50.000 Huh?
02:54:50.000 Isn't it kind of crazy?
02:54:51.000 Oh, yeah.
02:54:52.000 Super crazy, man.
02:54:55.000 I was going to do a bunch of them.
02:54:56.000 We were going to do a whole shitload of live shows before COVID. And they got canceled and rescheduled, and eventually it was just done.
02:55:05.000 Did you lose interest in doing it?
02:55:09.000 I didn't lose interest in doing it.
02:55:11.000 I enjoy it, but I'd rather...
02:55:13.000 I just need to have room to do other stuff, too.
02:55:16.000 I like to write.
02:55:18.000 I like to work on things like that.
02:55:20.000 So I need to have room to be able to do that.
02:55:22.000 It's complicated, right?
02:55:23.000 When you're trying to juggle multiple different things that you do and try to allocate time for each individual thing.
02:55:28.000 It's hard to get in mind space.
02:55:30.000 It's hard to get the room for it.
02:55:31.000 I still like to write a lot.
02:55:32.000 I'll always write.
02:55:34.000 I'll always write.
02:55:35.000 I know I'll go back to it.
02:55:38.000 I mean, I do it now, but I shouldn't say I'll go back to it.
02:55:40.000 At some point in time when I'm like an old man, I'll probably just write.
02:55:44.000 Whatever writing looks like.
02:55:46.000 However it's distributed.
02:55:48.000 It's the thing I like most.
02:55:50.000 Do you...
02:55:51.000 And I get to keep my hand in it right now, you know?
02:55:53.000 Yeah.
02:55:54.000 Do you enjoy the audiobook process?
02:55:56.000 Love it.
02:55:56.000 Yeah?
02:55:57.000 Love it.
02:55:58.000 The audio originals?
02:55:59.000 Yeah.
02:56:00.000 Totally cool.
02:56:01.000 And it's funny, like, looking back in 2000 and shit, when I was coming out of graduate school, I was so afraid of other kinds of media.
02:56:10.000 Because it's just been, like, magazines, books, magazines, books.
02:56:13.000 And then I was so afraid of everything.
02:56:16.000 Why?
02:56:16.000 Because I just didn't understand that there was a possibility.
02:56:23.000 I just didn't understand how to distribute ideas.
02:56:25.000 And I didn't understand that what I want to talk about is the main thing.
02:56:32.000 And I don't care on what platform I talk about it.
02:56:37.000 I just thought that writing books was it, and it became Amazon, and what's going to happen with the book business, and whatever.
02:56:45.000 That it's killing the small bookstore, and books are never going to be the same, and all this kind of stuff always just scared the shit out of me.
02:56:51.000 But then eventually I realized that it's never that I needed to write books.
02:56:55.000 I just needed to be able to make material.
02:56:58.000 And I had a set of ideas that I want to be able to use and create material around, and I don't care if it gets printed in a book.
02:57:13.000 Mm-hmm.
02:57:30.000 Of sort of like what gatekeepers you went through, you know, to get there.
02:57:35.000 So I just view it now like I like work on a set.
02:57:38.000 I have a set of ideas, a set of experiences, a set of things, and I put them where it makes the most sense.
02:57:45.000 And that alleviated a ton of stress for me.
02:57:51.000 Are you doing video with your podcast as well?
02:57:54.000 No, we have.
02:57:55.000 We've done little segments, and we're moving into a new studio, and we're hopefully going to get it where it's better.
02:58:01.000 But our stuff's like, we've toyed with it, but we haven't fully satisfied it.
02:58:06.000 People really enjoy watching stuff, even if they leave it on in the background.
02:58:10.000 They like watching while they do other stuff.
02:58:12.000 We've definitely messed with it.
02:58:14.000 We were doing segments for a while.
02:58:18.000 We were doing segments for a while, but they would never do as well on YouTube as our other stuff did.
02:58:24.000 But I could picture making a separate thing for it, especially when we get into a space where we can just do a better job of it, where it looks better.
02:58:31.000 It's very hard.
02:58:33.000 In our studio now, it's very hard to get a good product that anybody can be proud of.
02:58:37.000 So you're building out a studio?
02:58:39.000 Yeah.
02:58:40.000 So you've completely settled into Montana.
02:58:43.000 You're there forever now?
02:58:45.000 Oh, I mean, I don't know about forever.
02:58:46.000 We got young kids.
02:58:49.000 They're old enough now where they know.
02:58:50.000 We used to just move them around like...
02:58:52.000 Yeah.
02:58:54.000 They just wake up in a different place.
02:58:56.000 Yeah.
02:58:56.000 Now they're like, you know, they're very entrenched.
02:58:58.000 But yeah, I don't imagine.
02:59:00.000 I mean...
02:59:01.000 I can't speak forever, but for now, for a long time coming, yeah.
02:59:05.000 Yeah.
02:59:06.000 For a long time coming.
02:59:07.000 I don't want to do...
02:59:07.000 I don't want to...
02:59:08.000 It'd be a big fight to move our kids.
02:59:10.000 I don't want to move them.
02:59:11.000 Yeah.
02:59:11.000 Well, how old are your kids now?
02:59:12.000 So, we have 7, 10, and 12. 12 is like the latest you can kind of move them and have them be okay with it.
02:59:22.000 I feel like if you move a kid at 14, it's like you bring them to a new high school.
02:59:26.000 Fuck.
02:59:27.000 Yeah, if we needed to, I mean, if we needed to, we would, but...
02:59:31.000 It's not that.
02:59:32.000 If we needed to, we would, but it would feel sort of...
02:59:35.000 Rude.
02:59:36.000 Yeah, just be like, the motivation isn't going to come from me.
02:59:41.000 I know enough about my future in the coming years, what I'm going to do and shit.
02:59:47.000 There's not going to be some opportunity where if I moved away, it would be great.
02:59:52.000 Right.
02:59:52.000 Especially for what you do.
02:59:54.000 Montana is kind of the perfect place.
02:59:55.000 Yeah, we're just set up there now and I can be there and I know how I'm going to be working for a long time to come.
03:00:03.000 It's just not an issue.
03:00:05.000 It's also like a high level of people that are in the outdoors, that love the outdoors.
03:00:11.000 Every time I go to Montana, I'm always blown away just by the views, just the way it looks.
03:00:17.000 We got an office, so we have an office in Montana.
03:00:24.000 We have an office in Haley, Idaho, so Sun Valley, right?
03:00:28.000 Is that where First Light is?
03:00:29.000 Yeah.
03:00:31.000 And these are the places that you look at any time one of these magazines comes out, the 10 best towns, 10 best mountain towns, whatever the hell.
03:00:40.000 Is it going to be like Sun Valley?
03:00:43.000 Is it going to be like Ketchum?
03:00:45.000 Or Boseman?
03:00:46.000 And dude, you would not believe.
03:00:48.000 And also the amount of people that moved during the pandemic could just pack up and move and they'll figure it out later.
03:00:53.000 You would not believe that it winds up being that it's actually very difficult to recruit Into these places.
03:01:01.000 It's so weird.
03:01:02.000 To get people to move there?
03:01:04.000 Yeah!
03:01:04.000 Really?
03:01:05.000 We just think that you'd be able to hire anyone you wanted.
03:01:08.000 Because they'd be like, are you kidding me?
03:01:10.000 I can move to ketchup or I can move to bone.
03:01:12.000 It's hard for people to just fucking move anywhere.
03:01:15.000 Yeah, people definitely want to move and then they get to talking to their family.
03:01:18.000 Yeah, and their wife's like, we're not fucking going anywhere.
03:01:21.000 Yeah, that's the thing that blows my mind.
03:01:25.000 On one hand, it's like everyone in the world is trying to get there except the people that you're trying to offer jobs to.
03:01:30.000 Yeah.
03:01:32.000 I don't know, man.
03:01:33.000 I feel super lucky that I found this place when I decided to move and that COVID kind of helped me in that way.
03:01:40.000 It presented this opportunity and that everybody was on board.
03:01:44.000 My kids were the first ones on board.
03:01:46.000 They were.
03:01:47.000 Because we came out here and we went to the lake and no one was wearing masks.
03:01:50.000 They were all jumping in the water and California was like spooked out.
03:01:53.000 They had full COVID anxiety in California when we came out here.
03:02:00.000 We came out here.
03:02:00.000 We're sitting together in a restaurant.
03:02:01.000 I'll never forget.
03:02:02.000 It was in May of 2020. We're sitting together in a restaurant.
03:02:05.000 My kids are like, I can't believe Because you had to wear a mask when you got in, and then they took your temperature.
03:02:12.000 They did like a little thermometer on your forehead, a little digital thing.
03:02:15.000 Check to see if you don't have a fever.
03:02:17.000 And then you sat down.
03:02:19.000 I was like, this is crazy.
03:02:20.000 I'm like, what is that testing for?
03:02:22.000 No one knew back then.
03:02:23.000 There was no vaccines.
03:02:25.000 I'm telling you it's going to be a good documentary.
03:02:27.000 Yeah.
03:02:27.000 Well, it was a good thing to live through because also it shows you...
03:02:33.000 The difference between how some people deal with big changes and big moments.
03:02:40.000 There's people that have a certain level of anxiety that exists.
03:02:43.000 They're already freaked out by regular life.
03:02:46.000 And then COVID comes along and it just ramps it up into this uncontrollable level.
03:02:50.000 Just the other day I was driving and I saw a guy in his car with his fucking mask on.
03:02:54.000 I'm like, bro, you're alone.
03:02:57.000 Do you just like wearing a mask?
03:02:59.000 What is this?
03:03:00.000 And it was a surgical mask.
03:03:02.000 It wasn't even a good one.
03:03:03.000 I was like, this is so strange.
03:03:05.000 What are you doing?
03:03:06.000 Do you know the writer Margaret Atwood?
03:03:08.000 I've heard the name.
03:03:09.000 She has a book called The Handmaid's Tale.
03:03:11.000 It's this dystopian future.
03:03:13.000 Yeah, my wife loves that show.
03:03:15.000 Oh, I haven't seen the show.
03:03:18.000 Maybe what I'm going to say, I don't know if it's in the show or just in the novel, but in the novel The Handmaid's Tale, it's this dystopian future where there's like a religious revolution of sorts.
03:03:29.000 Men hold all the powers.
03:03:31.000 It's like an insane patriarchy.
03:03:33.000 And it follows this woman through this and she loses track of her husband.
03:03:36.000 He's gone.
03:03:37.000 But in the book, I keep telling people this story when we're talking about COVID because in the book, she's sort of like talking to her dead or gone husband.
03:03:44.000 And she's asking, there's one thing I need to know, though, is like, was there some part of you that kind of liked it?
03:03:50.000 You know, she's wondering of her husband about when she lost all of her rights and he like controlled the household.
03:03:58.000 Did that somehow speak to you in some way?
03:04:00.000 Was there a little bit of you that liked that power that you had?
03:04:04.000 And looking back on the pandemic, there are certain players...
03:04:11.000 That I'm like, some part of them liked it.
03:04:14.000 Yeah.
03:04:15.000 A little teeny bit, like it spoke to something about how much influence you could wield.
03:04:23.000 Sure.
03:04:23.000 And like, there's something where like some people, they'll never admit it, they kind of dug it.
03:04:29.000 Well, there's a bunch of people that like telling people what to do, but they didn't have the opportunity.
03:04:34.000 But if all of a sudden they can yell, put a mask on!
03:04:37.000 And you have to do it?
03:04:38.000 No, some people dug it.
03:04:39.000 You kind of have to do it.
03:04:40.000 Like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
03:04:42.000 Okay, I'll put a mask on.
03:04:43.000 It spoke to some deeply infantile...
03:04:46.000 Authoritarian.
03:04:49.000 ...something where I'm like, yeah, you kind of liked it, dude.
03:04:52.000 I feel like you kind of liked it.
03:04:54.000 And then there's also some people that like being told what to do.
03:04:56.000 Yeah, yeah.
03:04:57.000 They like that, too.
03:04:58.000 They like that there's rules.
03:04:59.000 They want everyone else to have to follow them, too.
03:05:01.000 We were joking around about this because we went to see Roger Waters here.
03:05:04.000 Oh, you did?
03:05:05.000 Yeah, and it was great.
03:05:06.000 Awesome show.
03:05:07.000 Roger was on the podcast, too.
03:05:08.000 It was great.
03:05:09.000 He plays pool.
03:05:10.000 God, I don't, like, dude, this keeps embarrassing me.
03:05:13.000 I didn't know that.
03:05:13.000 Because I go on, I go into Spotify, and I'm like, and I scroll, and I'm like, okay, I'm gonna listen to that.
03:05:18.000 But I don't know that I'm missing things.
03:05:20.000 Well, there's so fucking many of them.
03:05:22.000 I mean, I do them almost every day.
03:05:24.000 Yeah, he was great.
03:05:24.000 Very interesting guy.
03:05:26.000 Brilliant guy.
03:05:26.000 Dude, I can't wait to listen to that.
03:05:28.000 How long ago was that?
03:05:29.000 A few months ago.
03:05:31.000 Yeah, a few months back.
03:05:32.000 I need a new system.
03:05:33.000 Very interesting guy.
03:05:35.000 But anyway, we go to his concert, and everyone backstage is wearing a mask.
03:05:42.000 I mean, everyone.
03:05:43.000 And I'm like, this is bizarre.
03:05:46.000 Like, you have to wear a mask.
03:05:47.000 Like, if you want to go back there, you have to wear a mask.
03:05:48.000 I'm like, I was hanging out with him all day.
03:05:51.000 We're on a podcast together all fucking day.
03:05:54.000 I was breathing.
03:05:55.000 I hugged him.
03:05:56.000 We played pool together.
03:05:58.000 No one had a fucking mask on.
03:06:00.000 And then we get to this thing, and okay, we all have to wear masks.
03:06:04.000 It was me and Hinchcliffe and Ari and Duncan, and so we all just fucking put a mask on.
03:06:10.000 And so we're hanging out backstage, and I'm yelling at everybody, put your fucking mask on, bro.
03:06:16.000 Put your fucking mask on.
03:06:18.000 Some of the guys took their masks down by the chin, but over the nose!
03:06:21.000 Over the nose!
03:06:22.000 And it became a fun thing where we were joking around about telling each other to put our masks on.
03:06:30.000 And to do it right.
03:06:30.000 The thing is, though, once you go out into the audience, then you take your mask off.
03:06:35.000 So now you're around everybody.
03:06:36.000 And then you go backstage, put your mask back on.
03:06:39.000 Like, this is a game.
03:06:41.000 This is like a bizarre game.
03:06:43.000 And one of the guys that worked on the crew was like, it's just a way that everybody lets everyone know that they're leftists.
03:06:51.000 And I go, you think?
03:06:52.000 He goes, yeah, that's what it is.
03:06:53.000 I go, I always say it's the Democrats' MAGA hat.
03:06:55.000 He's like, yes, that's what it is.
03:06:58.000 Because he's like, he goes, it's gone.
03:06:59.000 It's fucking COVID. It's over.
03:07:01.000 Like, this is a crazy thing to do.
03:07:03.000 My friend got it.
03:07:04.000 I called him today.
03:07:06.000 He's 70. And he got COVID. And I sent a nurse to his house and the whole deal.
03:07:10.000 I'm like, are you okay?
03:07:11.000 How you doing?
03:07:12.000 It's like, yeah, I got a little bit of a cough.
03:07:13.000 It's not that big a deal.
03:07:14.000 And he's fucking, he's kind of a fat guy.
03:07:16.000 And he's 70. You know, it's like, it's over.
03:07:19.000 Okay?
03:07:20.000 His name starts with J? No, no, no.
03:07:22.000 The flute.
03:07:22.000 I don't know who that would be.
03:07:24.000 Who's that?
03:07:24.000 Who's J? I was trying to think of a friend of yours.
03:07:27.000 Joey Diaz?
03:07:28.000 No.
03:07:29.000 Yeah, I sent nurses to Joey, too.
03:07:31.000 I'm like a friend of yours that you'd have a parental feeling towards.
03:07:34.000 No, no, no.
03:07:34.000 He's not even a close friend.
03:07:36.000 He's just a friend.
03:07:36.000 Oh, good.
03:07:37.000 I called him for something else.
03:07:38.000 I go, what's going on, man?
03:07:40.000 How you doing?
03:07:40.000 He's like, actually, I got COVID. And I said, all right, tell me where you're at.
03:07:43.000 I'll have a nurse come to you.
03:07:45.000 And I got him an IV vitamin drip and all that shit.
03:07:47.000 Oh, that's good.
03:07:48.000 But the point is, like...
03:07:50.000 He wasn't worried.
03:07:51.000 And he's 70. I'm like, you're gonna be alright.
03:07:55.000 It's over.
03:07:56.000 This shit is not what it was in March of 2020 when everybody was shitting their pants and they're shutting the government and shutting the country down.
03:08:02.000 This is a different thing now.
03:08:04.000 So if you're still wearing a fucking mask in your car today, That's you.
03:08:09.000 Like, you have to deal with whatever that is.
03:08:11.000 I always hold out, though.
03:08:12.000 I'm like, I don't know what they got going on.
03:08:14.000 They might have cancer.
03:08:14.000 I don't know what they got going on at their home or with themselves.
03:08:16.000 Well, they might have...
03:08:17.000 Yeah, I mean, they might be going through chemotherapy or something.
03:08:20.000 Sure.
03:08:21.000 So, yeah, I always hold that out.
03:08:22.000 But not when you're in your car.
03:08:24.000 Not when you're in your car.
03:08:25.000 You're in your car by yourself.
03:08:27.000 And you don't even wear a good mask.
03:08:29.000 You're wearing a fucking goofy-ass face mask that doesn't even stop shit from getting in your mouth.
03:08:36.000 Oh, yeah, man.
03:08:37.000 I just got...
03:08:38.000 I was sitting in the airport when they dropped the flight.
03:08:46.000 Oh.
03:08:46.000 Yeah.
03:08:47.000 People cheered.
03:08:49.000 They announced it.
03:08:49.000 Drop the mask recommendations?
03:08:51.000 Yeah.
03:08:51.000 Everybody cheered.
03:08:52.000 I got on the next plane.
03:08:53.000 Not a person on that flight.
03:08:54.000 It was a flight into Montana.
03:08:56.000 I remember walking in there and couldn't believe.
03:08:58.000 Not a person on the plane.
03:09:01.000 My buddy was in the air on an Alaska Airlines flight.
03:09:05.000 He was in the air when it happened, and they came down with a garbage bag.
03:09:09.000 Wow.
03:09:10.000 Wow.
03:09:11.000 You know, he said some people made a big scene out of putting their thing in the garbage bag and some people made a big scene out of not.
03:09:19.000 Oh, yeah.
03:09:19.000 I mean, I read people on Twitter and there's people that are saying, I'm still masking up for other people's protection.
03:09:24.000 I read this guy.
03:09:26.000 He made a post about how he's vaxxed.
03:09:30.000 He's had two boosters and he still wears a mask for other people's protection.
03:09:34.000 And he made a big declaration about it on Twitter.
03:09:36.000 And all these other people that are fucking shut-ins are all like responding to it.
03:09:41.000 Good for you.
03:09:42.000 Amazing.
03:09:43.000 Good for you.
03:09:44.000 It's like, buddy, it's over.
03:09:47.000 It's over.
03:09:48.000 And it's over until it's not over again, which is what's really scary.
03:09:51.000 Because now you've got a bunch of people that are really used to complying.
03:09:54.000 Well, you've also got a lot of people who are just not going to comply.
03:09:58.000 That's true.
03:09:59.000 Next time around, yeah.
03:10:01.000 Remember when I talked about not wanting to turn the jaguar into the spotted owl?
03:10:04.000 Meaning that it stops being an animal and becomes like a social symbol?
03:10:08.000 Yes.
03:10:09.000 Right?
03:10:12.000 Holy shit to the next administration needs to try to get people to mask up, man.
03:10:16.000 Yes.
03:10:18.000 Fucking Fauci before he left was telling people they should mask up against the flu.
03:10:23.000 Like, buddy.
03:10:24.000 Yeah.
03:10:25.000 I mean, I don't care about...
03:10:26.000 Like, I'm not...
03:10:29.000 There's a big difference between what you choose to do.
03:10:33.000 Recommendation versus requirements.
03:10:34.000 Yeah, recommendations, fine.
03:10:36.000 Choosing to do shit, fine.
03:10:39.000 It's the mandates that burn people.
03:10:41.000 It's the mandates that burn people.
03:10:43.000 I went out and got a vaccine.
03:10:47.000 Our kids never did.
03:10:49.000 I went out and got a vaccine.
03:10:51.000 It never bothered me, but making people...
03:10:55.000 Yeah.
03:10:56.000 I found it to be really problematic.
03:11:00.000 I kept trying to think of it in other scenarios.
03:11:02.000 I'm like, what else would you...
03:11:03.000 Even when dealing with employees or something, what else is analogous that you could make someone go do?
03:11:09.000 Well, not only that, but now we're finding that if people got vaccine injured...
03:11:14.000 So if you have a mandate in your business and then people got vaccine injured, you can't sue the vaccine manufacturers, but now they're starting to sue the businesses.
03:11:24.000 So the businesses that forced them to do the vaccine.
03:11:27.000 Oh, I was wondering if that was ever going to happen.
03:11:30.000 It started to happen.
03:11:31.000 There's at least one case that I know of.
03:11:35.000 The problem is, it's one thing if you're telling people to do something that you have a long history of long-term data.
03:11:44.000 You know exactly what the repercussions are.
03:11:47.000 But when you're telling people to do something where you don't have long-term data and You have studies from the pharmaceutical that's based on biased data that's interpreted by their scientists, and then they throw out any studies that show negative effects or lack of positive effects.
03:12:02.000 They can run 10 studies, and two of them get the required results, what they're looking for, and then the other eight don't.
03:12:12.000 They throw those out.
03:12:14.000 It's complicated because you're dealing with a business that's really just about making a lot of money.
03:12:20.000 And also a business that's had a bunch of criminal complaints, a bunch of lost lawsuits for fraud.
03:12:29.000 They've had criminal judgments against them for billions of dollars.
03:12:33.000 And we're expecting these people to be honest with us.
03:12:36.000 And you're trusting them.
03:12:38.000 And especially if you know people that have been injured by other pharmaceutical medications.
03:12:43.000 Like, I know people personally that took stuff that wound up getting pulled from the market years later, and they got fucked up by it, like, badly.
03:12:51.000 And it's just...
03:12:53.000 You can't.
03:12:54.000 You can't just mandate people take something that doesn't have a history of long-term use.
03:12:59.000 One of the things I found happening to me, though, is...
03:13:05.000 I just wanted that shit to end.
03:13:07.000 Yeah.
03:13:08.000 And I'd feel sometimes frustration with...
03:13:12.000 Like, if it seemed like something...
03:13:14.000 This is early on in the pandemic.
03:13:15.000 If it seemed like there was some ray of hope that something was going to fix the problem and let you go back to all the normal shit, I would get a little frustrated early on with people who wouldn't get with the program.
03:13:29.000 Not because...
03:13:31.000 Just because I wanted, I was like, come on!
03:13:33.000 Just like, let's do whatever we gotta do to be able to go and do our work, whatever.
03:13:39.000 Like, just get this taken care of.
03:13:41.000 And after a while you're like, this isn't, it's not gonna be like that.
03:13:45.000 It's not going to get taken care of in the way...
03:13:47.000 It's not a compliance issue.
03:13:51.000 Well, that's the problem with the way they distribute information because they withheld that from us.
03:13:56.000 They pretended that it was going to stop transmission.
03:13:58.000 They didn't have any data on that.
03:14:00.000 In fact, they didn't even test to see if it stopped transmission.
03:14:02.000 They tested to see if it produced antibodies.
03:14:05.000 I sat around thinking, when they got that thing out, I thought that you take it, you don't get it, you don't give it to anyone.
03:14:13.000 And dude, I don't regret it, but I went down, I got it early, and I went down thinking that, let's just go do this and get back to normal.
03:14:22.000 I did too.
03:14:23.000 I thought that was the end of it.
03:14:24.000 Before I became like this person that resisted everything, I was lined up for it.
03:14:29.000 I went to the UFC to get it, because the UFC had allocated a bunch for all their employees.
03:14:34.000 But it was on a Saturday, the day the fights were, and they said, I thought I could get it at the UFC because they have a doctor that works there.
03:14:41.000 I'm like, can you give it to me, like, right before the fights?
03:14:43.000 And Dana was like, yeah, they'll give you the vaccine right before the fights.
03:14:46.000 I was like, perfect.
03:14:47.000 So I go there, and then I called Dana, like, as we got there.
03:14:52.000 I said, hey, I'm here.
03:14:52.000 Where can I go get the vaccine?
03:14:54.000 And he goes, let me get you in touch with the doctor.
03:14:57.000 So he puts the doctor on.
03:14:58.000 I talked to the doctor.
03:14:59.000 He's like, we actually have to administer it.
03:15:02.000 At the hospital.
03:15:03.000 So can you go to the hospital on Monday?
03:15:05.000 I was like, no, I have to go home.
03:15:07.000 I go, but I'll be back in two weeks.
03:15:09.000 In that time, they pulled the vaccine because people were getting blood clots.
03:15:14.000 And I was like, holy shit.
03:15:15.000 And then two people I know had strokes in that time.
03:15:19.000 And I was like...
03:15:21.000 What the fuck?
03:15:22.000 And then I just started, like, thinking about all the things that I know about pharmaceutical companies and all their deception, whether it's OxyContin isn't addictive or whether it's Vioxx isn't going to cause you to have a stroke or all these different things that I knew.
03:15:37.000 I'm like, hold the fuck on.
03:15:40.000 And then Trump got over it.
03:15:41.000 And I was like, that fat fuck can kick it.
03:15:45.000 All of a sudden, I'm not scared.
03:15:47.000 And then Chris Christie got it.
03:15:48.000 I'm like, hold the fuck on, people.
03:15:50.000 Like, are we sure this is what everybody is saying?
03:15:53.000 It's like this doom and gloom is in the air, and everybody's so goddamn terrified.
03:15:57.000 And by then, I knew quite a few people that had COVID in it.
03:16:01.000 Yeah.
03:16:01.000 Survived it.
03:16:02.000 And even people that didn't even take vitamins and weren't taking care of themselves.
03:16:05.000 And I was on like fucking ultra health protocol when that was going down.
03:16:10.000 I'm like, I am going to fucking just keep my body humming and oiled at 100%.
03:16:15.000 So if this shit comes down the pipe, I'm ready.
03:16:18.000 Yeah.
03:16:19.000 It's a wild thing to go through all of it.
03:16:22.000 I mean, and all of us have experienced it.
03:16:24.000 These last three years are very strange.
03:16:27.000 Like one of the strangest upheavals of just the way discourse was handled, the way content was censored, the way you're allowed to talk about things, and even the way things that, you know, were described as misinformation and disinformation that turned out to be absolute fact.
03:16:44.000 And then you know that they knew it was absolute fact when they were labeling it disinformation.
03:16:48.000 And how in cahoots the pharmaceutical companies were with the government and social media.
03:16:53.000 It's like, wow!
03:16:54.000 It's eye-opening.
03:16:55.000 It's very eye-opening and pretty fucking wild.
03:16:59.000 It's an educational experience on the human condition and just about how people deal with adversity.
03:17:05.000 What was the...
03:17:06.000 I wonder if they're going to do...
03:17:07.000 You know, remember the 9-11 report and the Kennedy report?
03:17:10.000 What the hell are those things called?
03:17:12.000 Congressional reports?
03:17:13.000 Yeah.
03:17:14.000 If they're going to do one on that?
03:17:15.000 Depends on who's in office.
03:17:16.000 Depends on if the Republicans get in.
03:17:18.000 Depends on who has power.
03:17:21.000 You know?
03:17:21.000 Because, you know, if the people that were in charge of the administration while the suppression was going down, which, you know, initially was Trump...
03:17:28.000 Yeah, but that's a span to the administration.
03:17:29.000 Yeah, initially was Trump, but then, you know, the vaccine rollout...
03:17:33.000 You know, a lot of it happened during the Biden administration and a lot of the censorship happened during the Biden administration.
03:17:39.000 And also the collusion between the social media companies and the government happened during the Biden administration.
03:17:44.000 So it's like, who knows?
03:17:47.000 Who knows?
03:17:48.000 I mean, if we continue to have Democrat presidents, we might never find out what the fuck is going on or what happened.
03:17:54.000 We'll find a little bit about what's getting released through these Twitter documents that Elon's releasing, which is pretty wild.
03:18:01.000 Yeah.
03:18:03.000 It's interesting who was scared of it and who wasn't, too.
03:18:08.000 That was interesting, too, to see some people just fall apart and freak out.
03:18:12.000 Some of my friends fell apart and freaked out.
03:18:15.000 Oh, I saw a lot of it among people that are near and dear to me, and I remember trying to convince my mom to get scared.
03:18:27.000 Oh, really?
03:18:28.000 Your mom was...
03:18:32.000 That's hilarious.
03:18:34.000 Right?
03:18:35.000 She's old, man.
03:18:36.000 Yeah.
03:18:36.000 My parents, the same way.
03:18:37.000 They were the opposite, though.
03:18:39.000 They were shut-ins.
03:18:39.000 They just fucking isolated from everybody for a whole year.
03:18:42.000 It was really hard on them emotionally and psychologically.
03:18:45.000 And then they slowly drifted back.
03:18:47.000 I mean, after they got vaccinated, they started coming around.
03:18:49.000 But I didn't see my parents for a year.
03:18:51.000 Yeah.
03:18:51.000 Early on, I was kind of hoping that my mom got...
03:18:55.000 She was real upset about some of the things that were happening politically in Michigan and And I just want her to not lose sight of...
03:19:03.000 Right.
03:19:04.000 It is a thing you can catch.
03:19:06.000 And especially for people that are vulnerable.
03:19:08.000 That's when the vaccine is very valuable.
03:19:10.000 You know, for people that are older, you know, I'm a big advocate for it.
03:19:14.000 And people that are of high risk, you know, it might make the difference between you getting really fucking sick or just getting a little sick.
03:19:22.000 Yeah.
03:19:23.000 Yeah.
03:19:24.000 But, you know, there's also a lot of shit they didn't tell people to do that they knew because there's no benefit to them financially.
03:19:31.000 Like, take vitamin D. One of the early things they found out is that people that were in the ICU with COVID, a very large percent of them were deficient in vitamin C, which is crucial to the function D. D. Oh, you said C, sorry.
03:19:46.000 Did I say C? Sorry.
03:19:47.000 D, vitamin D. Because vitamin D is crucial to your immune system, and it's very difficult to get.
03:19:52.000 If you're not out in the sun every day, you're not getting vitamin D unless you supplement.
03:19:56.000 You're not really getting it that much from food.
03:19:58.000 You really only get it from supplements or better from the sun.
03:20:03.000 The sun's the best way to get it.
03:20:05.000 It's really a hormone that your body produces because of the sunlight.
03:20:09.000 And it's crucial to immune function.
03:20:12.000 They knew that early on.
03:20:13.000 And they were never telling, there's no fucking news stories telling, please, supplement with vitamin D. No one's telling you that.
03:20:19.000 It was a lot of very frustrating stuff for me, too, because I have these long-form conversations with Nutritionists and epidemiologists and people who really understand about the immune system and weren't beholden to pharmaceutical companies, especially independent people that have podcasts and scientists and people that weren't on board with the mainstream narrative.
03:20:41.000 There's a lot of things you could be doing to protect yourself and we should be telling these people to do this.
03:20:46.000 And there's no discussion of this.
03:20:47.000 It's just like this one very binary solution.
03:20:51.000 Take this medicine.
03:20:53.000 Must get it.
03:20:54.000 Get it, get boosted, keep going.
03:20:56.000 Even after I got COVID, which I got over pretty quickly.
03:21:00.000 There was people telling me to get vaccinated now.
03:21:02.000 And I was like, why would I do that after I got over the disease when natural immunity from recovering from the virus is seven times better protection than the vaccine?
03:21:15.000 They're like, well, it's even more protection.
03:21:16.000 So you want me to join your team?
03:21:19.000 That's what it is.
03:21:20.000 Yeah, it was funny.
03:21:22.000 That was the order in which I went.
03:21:24.000 Got it, and then later got a vaccine.
03:21:26.000 Well, a lot of people were telling you that's the best way to do it, because you get more protection, which is fine if that's what you want to do.
03:21:34.000 Yeah, there was a travel restriction component of it, too, that I was concerned about.
03:21:37.000 That was a big issue.
03:21:39.000 I just decided I'm not going to travel.
03:21:40.000 I just was like, I'm going to hold on here because I just know the history of pharmaceutical companies and how all these things, everybody's like, oh, just take it, just take it.
03:21:49.000 Everything's fine.
03:21:49.000 It's not addictive.
03:21:50.000 It's not going to kill you.
03:21:51.000 And then years later...
03:21:53.000 The truth comes out.
03:21:54.000 It's like it's a long-standing story.
03:21:56.000 It's a narrative that plays out over and over and over again.
03:22:00.000 But everybody was like, but not this time.
03:22:02.000 This time we're being honest.
03:22:04.000 I got a buddy.
03:22:05.000 His initials are, if he's listening, his initials are SM. And I would fight with him early on.
03:22:17.000 But like, why not just go, because we, you know.
03:22:21.000 We're tied in on some stuff and I'm fighting with him being like just go get the stupid things you don't need to worry about it like what's going on like if we're gonna go to whatever just and he just would not and it was so funny and I remember even thinking like this guy is so rational about everything in his life and he's so like calculated and doesn't screw up I'm like why can he not?
03:22:41.000 What was his thought?
03:22:45.000 He didn't see the need.
03:22:47.000 He's like young, healthy, didn't see the need, and wasn't comfortable with someone telling him to go do it.
03:22:54.000 And then, it's so funny, because I would bust his balls, and it gradually, now I'm like, oh, that son of a bitch was like, you know.
03:23:01.000 He was right.
03:23:03.000 I never gone and said it to him, though.
03:23:06.000 Call him up!
03:23:07.000 He'll know.
03:23:08.000 All right, man.
03:23:09.000 Well, we just did three hours plus.
03:23:11.000 Yeah.
03:23:11.000 So we should wrap this bitch up.
03:23:13.000 Are you hungry?
03:23:14.000 Want to get something to eat before we hit the road?
03:23:15.000 Yeah, I do.
03:23:15.000 All right, let's do it.
03:23:16.000 All right.
03:23:18.000 Bye, everybody.