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00:03:58.000It's really an insult to the American farmer and the American entrepreneur, someone who would want to do that, who would want to open up a hemp farm and grow some hemp, which, by the way, is completely non-psychoactive.
00:04:10.000There's zero in it that can get you highs.
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00:07:44.000Alright, Victor Conte is here, ladies and gentlemen, and we're going to get to the bottom of a lot of serious shit in the sports world.
00:08:21.000You were at the head of the Balco labs that were making these undetectable steroids, and you were hooking athletes up and then advising them how to beat the system.
00:08:41.000It was the challenge of being in the trenches and, you know, being involved in a number of projects and a number of sports and going after those historic records.
00:08:52.000Was it fun because you were sort of cheating the system?
00:08:59.000You know, it was more about, previous to that I had developed a product called ZMA that had made a significant amount of money, and I think like anyone else that got to a point where they didn't have to worry about paying the mortgage and so on, I decided, what is it that I really like to do?
00:09:19.000And that was be in the trenches and help athletes and try to do historic things.
00:09:26.000So whether it be go to the Super Bowl with teams or go to World Championships or Olympics or whatever it was, we would set specific goals like the Tim Montgomery Project called Project World Record.
00:09:40.000I recruited and hired a bunch of people, including Ben Johnson's coach, Charlie Francis, To create the world's fastest human is one of the projects that we had.
00:09:49.000And we did end up eventually doing that.
00:09:53.000So you looked at it as sort of a science project sort of a thing.
00:09:57.000The challenge and the fun and the excitement, a lot of people thought because it was an IRS-led investigation that it was all about the money.
00:10:04.000That's absolutely the farthest thing from the truth.
00:10:07.000Ultimately, I plead to probably many consider the smallest money laundering case in the history of the United States in an amount of $100.
00:10:16.000And how long did they put you in jail for that?
00:10:19.000I spent four months in a minimum security prison camp where they were smoking weed.
00:11:07.000So you just worked out and hung out and stuff?
00:11:09.000Well, you know, to make a long story short, the first morning when I woke up, and it was kind of a university campus-like setting, and I walked out, and in the middle of the courtyard was a huge sign, and it said, Sports Complex.
00:12:41.000About every 200 feet, they have a sign on a stake that says, Out of Bounds.
00:12:47.000Now, I got there in December 1st of 2005. That Christmas, about 25 guys just walked out to the freeway and had their road and had their families pick them up, and they left.
00:13:15.000It didn't take me long to figure out that they had several really nice-looking female correction officers there, with hair done up and big chest.
00:14:49.000Yeah, ABC Nightline News, Martin Bashir announced that night that I went in, they had a special, and he said that they had spent investigating and prosecuting me.
00:16:11.000The weirdness of deciding that Roger Clemens shouldn't be taking growth, and if he is taking growth, he should tell the truth about it, and if he doesn't tell the truth about it, we're going to drag you in front of fucking Congress.
00:18:05.000Well, and then I was looking for a way to make money and this guy Jack Cameron that had graduated with my cousin from USC had started a lab in Santa Barbara and he bought this piece of equipment that could analyze Any sort of biological fluid, tissue, blood, urine, but they mainly used these pieces of equipment.
00:18:29.000His actual contract that he had at the time was with Hughes Aircraft, and they would drain the oil from the engines on a jet and analyze the oil for the concentration of metals so they would know when to replace the engine parts.
00:18:44.000But he also knew that there was an application of this...
00:18:48.000In terms of medical and specifically sport application.
00:18:51.000And he knew that I was a track athlete in high school and college.
00:19:29.000You know, I've always had, people have called it Victor's Knack, and so I founded Balco in March of 1984. Well, immediately, I started, you know, hooking up with world-class athletes.
00:19:41.000The first one was Alberto Salazar, who was the world record holder in the marathon at the time.
00:19:45.000He'd won the New York City Marathon two or three times.
00:19:48.000And shortly after, it was Matt Biondi, who at that time was the world's fastest swimmer, who won seven or eight gold medals in the Olympics in 1988. And it just continued.
00:19:57.000The next thing you know, I had professional football players, and so I started building this database, and I just kind of learned as I went along, and eventually I did learn how to run and operate the equipment, and we became fully Medicare certified and licensed.
00:20:14.000So what exactly were you doing for these athletes initially?
00:20:18.000Well, we were analyzing, we called it multiple compartment multi-element analysis.
00:20:23.000So we would look at up to 40 different elements, predominantly minerals and trace elements.
00:20:29.000And we'd centrifuge the blood, separate it into the fluid portion, the plasma or serum, and the packed cells or red blood cells.
00:22:51.000And here's where the big turn occurred.
00:22:55.000After the '88 Olympics, and I don't know if you recently watched this 9.79 asterisk program that has been on ESPN, the 30/30 about Ben Johnson?
00:23:08.000I was there in Seoul in '88, standing at the finish line when he ran 9.79 and all this Long story short, all these eight guys, one at a time, since then, have either been busted or admitted that they were using performance-enhancing drugs.
00:24:09.000So I called Greg, told him, he told his wife Mary, you know, what was he going to do now?
00:24:15.000He was going to have to look for a job.
00:24:17.000I mean, this was quite upsetting to him.
00:24:19.000And then three or four days later, I get a call back from this same guy, and he said, well, one of the elder statesmen at TAC, used to be called the Athletic Congress, now it's USATF, United States Track and Field, And he said one of the elder statesmen passed away and they had a reception afterwards and some of these big dogs within the organization got together and decided that it was time to sweep these five positive drug tests that they came up with under the rug.
00:24:52.000So once I had first-hand knowledge of this, and I also knew that there were other positive drug tests that were covered up in 1988 in Seoul.
00:25:01.000So this weighed on me for a while, and it wasn't until 2000 when I was at a Mr. Olympia bodybuilding contest in Las Vegas, and the guy that made the original stock of The Clear that was involved in, Patrick Arnold, He said, hey, I've got some stuff.
00:27:40.000The first is that, for an anabolic steroid, is that it's similar in structure to testosterone.
00:27:48.000All anabolic steroids are modified or derivatives of testosterone.
00:27:53.000The second prong was that there had to be some sort of scientific evidence proving that it created protein synthesis, that it promoted muscle growth.
00:28:05.000Well, in this case, there was science that promoted this.
00:28:40.000And then I had access to all kinds of inside information within the Olympic testing network.
00:28:49.000And what I mean by that is, let's talk about where they do the testing now for USADA, for VADA, for everybody at the UCLA Olympic Analytical Laboratory There was a guy that actually, he was the assistant to Don Catlin, was there for 15 years, and he left, and I knew somebody that knew him, and long story short, I ended up hiring him.
00:29:20.000So I had, you know, obviously he knew people in the lab.
00:29:23.000He actually told me that this original species of the clear, norbolethone, that he personally had went to Reith Laboratories in 1982 when they built the lab.
00:29:35.000And the purpose was for the 1984 Olympic Games in Los Angeles.
00:29:39.000And he went to Don Catlin and said, You need to create a test for this substance.
00:30:16.000He gave some to me, so I gave it to all these Olympic athletes.
00:30:21.000But an interesting aspect of this story, and this has been out there before, but I don't know that many within the world of MMA know this, but Patrick made like a gallon of this stuff.
00:30:49.000I don't want to create more multi-million dollar lawsuits against me, but here's the story that I was told.
00:30:55.000He sold a whole bunch of this stuff like a gallon to Bob Sapp, the K-1 fighter.
00:31:03.000And my understanding is this stuff was all over the NFL. I guess during this time, he was out of the NFL, and I think there was a period of time when he played in the Canadian League before he went to Japan to do the K-1 fighting.
00:31:16.000But the point is, this stuff was very widely distributed, is my understanding.
00:31:22.000Bob Sapp got to a level that was like...
00:31:25.000Well, I couldn't even say cartoonish because it was more like CGI. He was the first guy ever that could have played the Incredible Hulk.
00:31:35.000Like, he really could have played the Hulk because he was that big.
00:31:39.000I mean, like Lou Ferrigno when he played the Hulk.
00:32:16.000The photos are so ridiculous, you can't even believe he's a real human.
00:32:21.000So anyway, because I had a lot of contacts within the Olympic testing facilities and so on, They found some,
00:32:36.000quote, peculiar metabolites in the urine of Marion Jones and other athletes, so they started asking athletes, the actual testers that go out to these athletes' training facilities, without naming names, but a guy that was on the team in 2000, I think he got fourth in the discus from the U.S. He didn't get a medal, but there you go.
00:33:03.000You gotta see, the video from the beginning, do the very beginning of the match, because when he's about to, when they're both about to fight, like, even before, like when they're standing in the center of the ring, and the referee says, go, you see him.
00:33:30.000I get a call from a guy that I'm working with, a shot putter, who's friends with this, who was on the Olympic team with this discus throw, and he said, hey, they're asking questions.
00:33:38.000What do we know about this Bauco Laboratories?
00:34:03.000Because of knowing that the Olympic Committee had fudged some tests, did you just think the whole thing was bullshit and that you were going to get through it?
00:34:56.000My thought was, if they come after me, my get-out-of-jail ticket, so to speak, would be, we'll just subpoena this guy and he can tell what he knows about what everybody's doing.
00:35:07.000And then I realized that if there was a...
00:35:13.000If he was subpoenaed and he was under oath, that would be one thing.
00:35:16.000If there was a congressional committee hearing, that would be another.
00:35:19.000But I'm not just going to send reporters to his house and destroy this guy's life.
00:35:23.000And it became better in the case of Balco for me to do this global plea bargain.
00:35:35.000And the way that all came down was because I knew that they had lied in many of the memorandums It was all sorts of bad stuff that the government had done, and I learned about this and used it in terms of leverage, and literally the way the Bauco case ended is I dictated all the terms and conditions of what I would get and was able to do so for the other guys, like Barry Bonds' trainer, Greg Anderson.
00:36:02.000And Jim Valenti and Remy Court Chimney.
00:36:04.000And honest to God, I had seen Martha Stewart.
00:36:09.000She kind of went in over a holiday period and was in there five months.
00:36:27.000The VP of Balco got straight probation, so he was able to continue to run my business.
00:36:31.000I was able to continue to have my income at the same level.
00:36:36.000And this protected everybody from having to come forward and testify in a trial.
00:36:43.000So I... What led you to start giving them illegal substances or substances that you knew were cheating?
00:36:50.000Well, you have to understand, in the beginning, it started with the clear.
00:36:53.000I didn't consider it to be an illegal substance.
00:36:55.000Because when the guy said he had this stuff, you didn't think it was illegal?
00:36:58.000Well, I didn't really know what it was.
00:37:00.000This guy also introduced pro-hormones.
00:37:04.000If you remember when Mark McGuire, they found the Sports Illustrated writer, Stephen Wilson, that found it in his locker and everything broke about...
00:37:12.000This is the guy that introduced Andro to the United States market.
00:37:18.000I mean, literally, there were three different species and Later, I saw when they tried to smuggle this through customs in Canada, but I'd seen all the bottles.
00:37:43.000And then you've got to understand that all these athletes that work with me...
00:37:48.000Routinely, they were on a very short leash, meaning they got a three week on, one week off cycle, and if they didn't come back and have their blood tested so we could monitor liver function, kidney function, cholesterol fractions, and all the rest, that was the end of the supply.
00:38:02.000So in my mind, I was helping them do what in almost every case they were already doing themselves, only they were buying it out of trunks of cars and dark alleys behind gyms.
00:38:13.000I owned a fully licensed clinical laboratory where we could do all these testing, and then they would have the opportunity to make more informed decisions, and in most cases they used much lower dosages which were equally if not more effective.
00:38:27.000At a certain point in time when you were initially working with people and just giving them nutrition and then realizing that some of them were doing steroids, did you just decide that it's an inevitability, it's just a part of sports period, high level sports?
00:38:41.000Like I say, once I gather this information that everybody's in on it, meaning the Olympic officials are actually covering up positive drug tests at Olympic Games, I had been on the sideline from 92 and for eight years.
00:38:55.000And just at a certain point, I made that decision.
00:40:00.000In the beginning, when I told you that I hired Charlie Francis and he came down for this project, and if you've ever listened to any of the things that he's said, I'm not saying it's right, but it's the use or lose mentality.
00:40:11.000If you know the other guy's doing it, you feel you've got to do what you've got to do in order to be competitive.
00:40:17.000And I don't know that I agree with this now, and I've said this myself before, that it's not cheating if everyone's doing it, where it probably is, because it's a level playing field, it's just not the one everyone thought it was.
00:42:01.000He was a discus thrower from Texas A&M, and he was the supplier for Trevor Graham and Marion Jones and Tim Montgomery and the Sprint Capital Group that was in Raleigh, North Carolina, that won a whole bunch of Olympic gold medals and so on.
00:42:19.000They ended up indicting Trevor, Marion's coach, for lying to a federal agent.
00:42:26.000This guy came and testified against Trevor, and he got leniency in exchange for that.
00:42:34.000So he never got any consequence whatsoever.
00:43:15.000I know somebody who saw him after Usain Bolt ran At 969, it did everything they did in Beijing at the Olympics, at the World Championships the following year.
00:45:15.000Well, no, no, they don't come right back the next day.
00:45:18.000What they do is they send you a letter and say, hey, you missed this test, show up at this hearing, and you can give us a reasonable explanation or present exceptional circumstances, or you can argue this, or you get the strike.
00:46:08.000Well, once you've got two missed tests, you cannot take any more chances in terms of using drugs until the oldest missed test falls off your record, just like a ticket on your driving record.
00:48:08.000Most of the gains for Olympic athletes and for NFL and Major League Baseball and professional sports, during the off-season...
00:48:21.000They load up on all kinds of performance-enhancing drugs, including anabolic steroids, and do intensive weight training for four or five months.
00:48:32.000And the gains they make, what kind of gains can you make?
00:48:36.000Tiny Tim, Tim Montgomery that broke the world record with the project world record that I talked about earlier.
00:48:43.000He, in eight weeks, he came in, he weighed 148. He put on 28 pounds of muscle in eight weeks.
00:48:50.000His bench press went from 265 to 345. In eight weeks.
00:48:56.000So a lot can be done in four or five months using powerful drugs.
00:49:03.000So when these athletes are doing all these spectacular things at the Olympic Games, it's not because they're using the drugs at the Olympics or just before the Olympics.
00:49:11.000They've used them for five months during the off-season.
00:49:35.000And it was before the 2004 Olympic Games in Athens.
00:49:38.000And the question they asked, it was with Sports Illustrated, they said, would you rather see...
00:49:43.000A new world record of 9.65, which wouldn't even be the record now, by a guy that you knew was juiced to the gills, or see a guy run 10.20 knowing he's completely clean.
00:49:59.000I'd rather see a guy jump like a mile up in the air than like, you know, seven feet.
00:50:03.000Yeah, like if there was a pill that you could take that actually turned you into the Hulk and you could literally jump a mile into the air like the Hulk could, who wouldn't take that?
00:50:33.000It becomes what the fuck is wrong with you.
00:50:37.000At any point in time while you're doing this and you're caught up, you know, you're going from being totally natural to working with the clear to all of a sudden you're giving guys EPO and growth and all this different stuff.
00:50:48.000Does any point in time go, man, this is not what I set up to do.
00:50:59.000No, I certainly knew that it was dirty.
00:51:01.000It was the, you know, that rationale that I told you that I used before of you feel that you've got to do what you need to do in order to be competitive, and it's the use or lose.
00:51:15.000If you don't use drugs, then, except for this rare freak that you mentioned that can do this without the use of drugs.
00:51:24.000Well, I know there's a lot of MMA fighters that don't use drugs.
00:51:27.000They won't use drugs, and they don't use drugs.
00:51:29.000It may be a small handful of them, but they're very proud of it, like B.J. Penn obviously being one of the most vocal.
00:51:34.000But there's a lot of guys who just won't.
00:51:39.000But how many guys do you think are using?
00:52:27.000If you go back and look at the last five years of statistics, you see that on average, they only test about 50 players, which is less than 5%.
00:52:36.000So if those who receive the majority of the financial gain from Major League Baseball and control the drug testing have every right to test these players, or at least 31% or 375 players, why do they test only 50?
00:52:54.000And they tried to argue this with me, and I know a lot of Major League Baseball players, and I talk to them, and I know that there's a guy that's maybe one of the highest-paid players in the history of the league, and in his entire career, which we won't say exactly, but more than 15-year career, He's only been tested one time during the off-season.
00:53:18.000What I'm saying is I believe they lack a genuine interest in catching these athletes.
00:53:23.000They want to promote this propaganda that they're for clean sport.
00:53:28.000They're trying to reduce the drugs, but they just don't take their hook and line and pole and throw it in the pond to try to catch the fish when the fish are biting.
00:53:55.000What percentage of track and field do you think?
00:53:57.000Well, that's a history of really being dirty for a very long period of time.
00:54:01.000I mean, where you can see this, and I'll give you an obvious example.
00:54:06.000And that is with the women because they typically have about 10% the amount of testosterone compared to a male, so the effects are much greater on a woman than they are on a man.
00:54:16.000If you go back and look at the women's records in track and field, 100, 200, 400, 800, 1500 meter, 100 hurdles, 400 hurdles, and those seven events, the world and Olympic records are from the 1970s and 80s.
00:54:37.000You've got faster Mondo tracks now, better spikes, all sorts of additional training equipment, and you would expect them to run faster.
00:54:45.000At the Olympic Games, the winner runs around 49 seconds in the 400-meter.
00:54:50.000World record's 4760. I mean, it's like 12 meters faster.
00:54:54.000If you superimpose these records, From the world and Olympic records compared to what they just did at the Olympic Games, you would see that it's a joke.
00:55:05.000The world record in the 100 meters is 1049. So they ran whatever it was, 1078 or maybe 1070. The world record in the 200 is 2134. They run whatever it is, 2180. But it's five meters slower 30 years later.
00:55:22.000That obviously these records are tainted.
00:55:27.000So, and every time these athletes step up to the starting blocks, if you're at a world championship, you're at Olympic Games, you see these records come up.
00:55:36.000So they're not just competing against the athletes in the lanes next to them, they're competing against these world and Olympic records, which are obviously tainted.
00:55:45.000And all the women now in track and field complain about this routinely, that listen, we can't get anywhere near these records.
00:55:57.000Where all this leads is, what are you going to do?
00:55:59.000Rip up the Olympic track and field record book?
00:56:02.000Yeah, what are you going to do with the Tour de France?
00:56:04.000They said that if they take it away from Lance Armstrong and you have to give it to the next runner-up that didn't test positive on a drug test, it would be 27th place.
00:56:16.000I don't know if you remember back in 2003, but this was right before Balco was raided, and I was helping a girl named Kelly White, and she won, was the first ever American to win double gold in the 100 and 200 meters.
00:57:05.000So they're all on EPO, and EPO essentially simulates what it's like to live at high altitude where your body produces more red blood cells, more complicated?
00:57:13.000You know, are you going to get the same types of results training at high altitude that you will from using EPO? The answer is no.
00:57:28.000Well, let's say that a normal hematocrit is for a female is around 40 and for a male is around 45, 43. And what does hematocrit exactly mean?
00:57:39.000That's the percentage of red blood cells to total whole blood volume.
00:57:41.000So if you look at it and you spin it down in a centrifuge, the top 55% is the plasmor serum it's called.
00:57:52.000Now, the word out there was that Lance Armstrong, the target, was about 55%.
00:57:58.000But I've seen, and another thing you have to understand, is that all anabolic steroids, including the granddaddy of Amal testosterone, significantly increase red blood cell production.
00:58:09.000Now, I've tested many, many of the top bodybuilders in the history of the sport.
00:58:16.000And you see guys coming back at 57%, 58%, 59% hematocrit.
00:58:39.000But everybody thinks the steroids is actually being bad for your cardio when it comes to fighters because they put up so much muscle mass when they're on steroids and that demands resources.
00:58:47.000And that means the blood vessels have to travel farther.
00:58:50.000And the other thing that's bad about that a lot of people don't understand is And of course, track and field, they know this very well, is you are much stronger and much faster off steroids than on steroids.
00:59:49.000They increase your strength, but you will maintain that strength every single...
00:59:54.000For two weeks after you go off, you maintain 100% of the strength, but now you have a normal fluid balance, and your muscles are much more relaxed and much faster.
01:00:04.000Now, so these are the really hardcore steroids you're talking about, like the ones that people get tested for, like extremely anabolic ones, or basically even regular testosterone?
01:00:50.000So I don't care what you're doing, MMA fighting or playing baseball, you would be much quicker by being off instead of on.
01:01:01.000So you don't perform your best when you're on steroids.
01:01:04.000Okay, so steroids allow you to perform your best because they build you up so much in training that you almost have supernatural strength, and then when you're off of them, then you perform at your best.
01:01:23.000Can you talk into this a little bit better?
01:01:23.000They used to say 10-day taper, and I believe, and now I know that there are a number of people that believe the best is a 14-day taper.
01:01:32.000Now, for MMA fighters, especially since MMA is such a controversial sport as it is, and there's so many instances of guys getting caught with PEDs, it's so commonplace.
01:01:46.000It's almost like every time the tests come out, all fighters tested for UFC 1X, whatever it is, I cross my fingers.
01:01:54.000I'm like, please don't be fucking positive.
01:01:56.000Because so many guys test positive, and then you don't see them for a year.
01:02:11.000Yeah, well, in his situation, absolutely.
01:02:14.000But you're working with guys, you're working with Kyle Kingsbury and Nonito Donair, and Nonito Donair looked fucking amazing the other night.
01:04:43.000It's just correcting weak links or depletions and deficiencies.
01:04:48.000And then secondly, we have athletes wear a memory belt, which collects all sorts of different data, caloric expenditure, VO2 max, ventilation, training load, You wear it while you work out?
01:06:00.000Their white blood cell count, normal, say, is about seven, and these guys will go outside the low end of the range at four and down into the threes.
01:06:08.000This is something we discovered with Kyle early on.
01:07:10.000Yeah, this is something that all the top guys, Tiger Woods and A-Rod and all these guys that were going to a guy named Mark Lince, who is in Toronto.
01:07:20.000He's one of the top ART guys in the country.
01:08:24.000But it's a two-way street, meaning once the red blood cell is there and dumping the oxygen, it picks up Lactic acid, ammonia, carbon dioxide, these metabolic waste byproducts, and removes those.
01:08:39.000So you're delaying the onset, the accumulation of lactic acid.
01:08:43.000So it really helps with endurance, not because it's just delivering the oxygen, but because it's removing these metabolic waste, which are toxic, byproducts from the system.
01:09:08.000See, that's my big argument about what these state commissions are doing is they don't test for EPO. Yeah, I read that and I'm like, I heard that's a crazy thing.
01:09:35.000They're not talking to a guy, a knowledgeable guy, that could sort of read their blood work and tell them beforehand whether or not they're taking the right amount of time off of it.
01:11:14.000As soon as he enrolled in Nevada testing, where this is what they do that's different than other testing associations, is every single sample they use, the CIR, carbon isotope ratio testing, Which can differentiate between endogenous production and exogenous testosterone, whether it be patch, cream, clear, injection.
01:11:37.000So his TE ratio came back at 3.77 to 1. Well, even the highest Olympic standard is 4 to 1. He's negative.
01:11:48.000But if you use this more sophisticated technology, he came back and they identified that he had synthetic testosterone in his system.
01:11:57.000And of course, later it came out, oh, by the way, I've got this pellet in my butt, and here's the reason.
01:12:02.000Now, I was told by somebody that I know that referred him to a doctor.
01:13:15.000He obviously was suspended in the state of California.
01:13:19.000Whatever he did wasn't, not only was it not legal, I guess now if he's using it and he's regulated by the state that he fights in and he's got a therapeutic use exemption, it is legal.
01:15:22.000So it's not about being quantitative, meaning, well, you can have only a certain amount in your urine, and I want to talk about this for a minute, of up to four to one.
01:15:53.000Based on this intelligence, collected a sample, and it came back his TE ratio was.5 to 1. It was lower than 1 to 1. Yet, with carbon isotope ratio, they found out this guy used this exogenous form of testosterone, and they banned him.
01:16:44.000So even though it's not produced by your body, even though it is a foreign substance...
01:16:50.000Then if they had a prescription, they could use any other one of the available Trembolone or Primabolin or Parabolin or any other steroid if a doctor said you can use this and you could get a therapeutic use exemption and use it.
01:17:53.000Yeah, that's what they give to fighter pilots and helicopter pilots, and they use it in the military.
01:17:58.000That's the first positive test that came down associated with me, was Kelly White with ProVigil in 2003. Provigil is what Dave Asprey takes.
01:18:13.000There's a whole video of him promoting it and they make him not take it for a couple days and he's talking about how cloudy he is and then he takes it and he works 20 hours a day.
01:18:21.000There's a little more to his story than what he was telling us.
01:19:05.000He was talking to us about all these great things, and I really believe him about all those great things, but I think the speed helps him too.
01:19:13.000Yeah, that's probably the number one thing.
01:19:15.000You're on top of shit because you're on fucking speed, man.
01:19:21.000The difference with Olympic caliber testing and what the Nevada State Athletic Commission is doing, giving these guys these TRTs, is it's a completely different standard.
01:19:31.000I mean, I don't think any of these guys, the six or whatever it is, MMA fighters that have these therapeutic use exemptions for testosterone in Nevada.
01:19:45.000The number in Olympic sport for, who knows, 100,000 athletes.
01:19:53.000There's 10,000, 11,000 that compete at the Olympics.
01:19:56.000The total in that group is something like 24,000.
01:20:01.000You've already got 10 out of 375 guys in the UFC. Yeah, but you also have to deal with the fact that these guys are getting a lot of head trauma.
01:20:12.000Head trauma reduces your body's ability to produce testosterone.
01:20:15.000I agree that that's certainly a factor.
01:20:17.000Yeah, that's sort of an unknown factor.
01:20:22.000That's one of the reasons for depression in a lot of athletes that have gotten a lot of head trauma.
01:20:27.000The pituitary gland is apparently very sensitive.
01:20:30.000It doesn't like getting knocked the fuck out.
01:20:32.000If it happens a few times, it can get damaged and it can stop your ability to produce hormones at a regular rate.
01:20:40.000And if it's a proper medical diagnosis, which takes about four months to be properly done, not One test, and hey, everything looks good, and get the prescription.
01:20:56.000I mean, there's all sorts of things that if you wanted to manipulate the system, you use steroids, it suppresses your endogenous production, you get a low reading, and you get a script.
01:21:09.000If the standard is very low, like it is in Nevada.
01:21:12.000And also, the ethical way to treat a patient would be to try to address their nutrition and minerals and vitamins first, before you would introduce some sort of...
01:21:35.000Rest the guy for a week and come back and take a second measurement.
01:21:38.000Make sure before you do this procedure.
01:21:40.000And it's just, you know, wham, bam, and then they're in, and it is what it is, and it's something that I'm not sure it may or may not be medically indicated in each one of these cases where these guys are being granted these exemptions.
01:21:57.000The issue sort of gets to a point where the door's already open.
01:22:25.000So it's either they're taking damage and the damage is messing up their body.
01:22:29.000And if that's the case, should they really be competing in combat sports?
01:22:33.000And if the only way for them to compete at their own best level in combat sports is to take hormones, it might be time to stop competing in combat sports.
01:22:43.000I mean, if you want to live the rest of your life and take...
01:22:46.000Synthetic hormones and feel better because you take them.
01:23:37.000And when they argue about, well, it's the standard deviation, I hear Keith Kaiser talk about, well, I'm worried about this guy, this one out of 500 or one out of 1,000 that may have this level.
01:23:49.000How about all the other guys that are competing against guys that may have a competitive advantage because they've hoodwinked the system to get a competitive edge by using testosterone?
01:24:00.000How about giving vision checks to those people that you have for judges?
01:25:16.000So what you do with these guys like Kyle Kingsbury and Nonito Donair is you keep them on the straight and narrow with the best possible legal ways of helping your body.
01:25:30.000What is ZMA? ZMA is your zinc, magnesium, what else is in there?
01:25:35.000Yeah, it's zinc, magnesium, and vitamin B6 and its specific forms of zinc and magnesium that are very bioavailable.
01:25:43.000It's actually the very first product that was introduced to the sports nutrition market to specifically enhance sleep efficiency and a product that you take at night before you go to bed.
01:25:55.000And it boosts testosterone too, doesn't it?
01:26:00.000During sleep, the first time that you go through about three cycles of five stages.
01:26:10.000And when you get to, it looks like three U's in a row.
01:26:13.000So when you get to the bottom of this, it's called delta or slow wave or stage three, stage four sleep.
01:26:20.000The first time that you go into this very deep sleep where your heart rate is significantly reduced, 70% of your body's daily output of growth hormone is released in a single burst, this mass that they can measure.
01:26:37.000And there's all sorts of things that light, sound, temperature that can affect you not going into a very deep sleep.
01:26:46.000So that's one of the things is to target relaxing the body with magnesium and getting you into a very deep and restful sleep.
01:26:53.000And a little bit of B6 is to Double the absorption of both the zinc and magnesium.
01:26:59.000So the first half of sleep is when most of your daily output of growth hormone is released.
01:27:05.000The second four hours is when your system produces testosterone.
01:27:09.000So this is why guys wake up with a woody.
01:27:12.000Your testosterone level is double in the morning compared to what it is in the evening.
01:27:18.000So I realized that when do you maximize tissue repair, healing, recovery, regeneration?
01:27:25.000And that's at night when you're sleeping.
01:27:28.000So that's why I put together that formula.
01:27:31.000And it was instantly a very huge success, selling hundreds of thousands of bottles a month.
01:27:36.000And now there's over 130 companies selling it worldwide.
01:28:13.000He's the guy that was famous for working with James Toney and a bunch of other athletes.
01:28:17.000He works with a lot of soldiers that have traumatic brain injury.
01:28:20.000If the basis is arginine, the original studies where they showed the connection between arginine and growth hormone levels was an Italian study, but to get any increase in growth hormone took 17 grams or 17,000 milligrams of arginine.
01:28:54.000Yeah, but the way they've managed to make the molecule smaller by some sort of a process.
01:29:00.000It was explained to me by a guy way fucking smarter than me, but because of the fact that it fits into your blood cells, That in this liposomal delivery that it actually is effective, supposedly.
01:29:11.000But it's a bunch of amino acids and other different things that they've shown in clinical tests of over 11 different years of a bunch of various tests that it's effective.
01:29:21.000Do you need a prescription for your boner cream?
01:29:57.000There's a lot of things that you should take at night that are really, you know, I'm a big fan of casein micellar protein to take at night.
01:30:05.000There's other better forms like whey protein isolates that have a higher rate of protein synthesis to take immediately after you work out.
01:30:13.000But when you're sleeping, you need a type that will bring that positive nitrogen balance for a longer period of time where whey protein isolates, the effect is about three hours, the casein micellar is about seven hours.
01:30:25.000Is that why people take cottage cheese at night too?
01:30:29.000Because it takes a long time to digest?
01:31:33.000I don't know if I should talk about a specific guy, but there's a high-level MMA guy that just was having all sorts of issues with his training and performance, and he was dried up like a prune.
01:31:53.000Well, it makes sense, because he's like one of those wrestler dudes that would probably overtrain a little bit and wind up dehydrated and just kind of suck it up and keep going.
01:32:04.000Apparently his wife helps him, and whatever time it is he goes to train, she gets up and takes the bottles of water and puts numbers on them, and by the time she gets home, he better have been drinking the sixth one before he goes on.
01:32:15.000But he's drinking about 10, 16-ounce bottles of water a day now, where before he just...
01:32:20.000Whenever he was thirsty or he didn't even really think about it.
01:32:23.000And through the testing, we were able to determine that he was just very dehydrated.
01:32:27.000And just that one simple piece of information and change, according to Javier Mendez, his coach, made a huge difference in his training and performance.
01:32:38.000Yeah, I found out that I was dehydrated once by taking one of those body fat tests where you stand on something.
01:32:46.000I had taken one recently and it registered me 3 or 4% higher in body fat than I knew I was.
01:33:27.000Let me tell you one of the things that I have these MMA fighters and boxers do.
01:33:33.000A lot of times they have to cut, obviously, to make weight.
01:33:39.000And there's a number of things involved there.
01:33:41.000But when it comes time after the weigh-in to hyperhydrate, I have them take Celtic sea salt.
01:33:49.000And a quarter teaspoon and 16 ounces of water, and drink at least two before they shift over to Cytomax or Pedialyte or some other form of electrolyte replacement.
01:34:14.000Would be the first thing after the weigh-in.
01:34:16.000That was one of the things that Dave Asprey had said that he does every morning.
01:34:20.000He said that people are missing out on that.
01:34:21.000And the reason, a lot of people don't realize this, but seawater has almost the identical concentration of minerals and trace elements as the fluid portion in your blood called serum or plasma.
01:34:36.000So by far the highest concentration of any mineral or element is sodium at about 3,000 parts per million.
01:34:45.000But you also have calcium at about 100 parts, potassium and phosphorus at about 150 parts.
01:34:51.000These other trace elements are very important.
01:34:54.000So when it comes time to replete and come back up, you want to have the exact same ratio of all these minerals and trace elements in your system first, and of course the sodium is what causes the retention.
01:35:06.000I have guys do this before they fight as well, because you'll retain throughout the course of a fight The amount of fluid that you retain is much greater if you sodium load.
01:35:18.000What a tricky, tricky fucking thing it is that everybody is like 90 plus whatever it is, percent water.
01:35:59.000They do that to cut, but room temperature baths for 10 minutes And their water, their system soaks water like a sponge right through their skin.
01:36:08.000And Epsom salts is an excellent source of magnesium.
01:36:11.000You absorb magnesium through your skin through Epsom salt baths.
01:36:15.000That's why people have always, you know, like people say, oh, you take an Epsom salt bath.
01:36:18.000Like, what the fuck is that going to do for you?
01:37:49.000If we're talking about the red blood cells are delivering oxygen and removing...
01:37:55.000These metabolic waste byproducts with every breath.
01:37:58.000Well, if you're well hydrated, it's like having an eight-lane freeway and all of a sudden you get dehydrated and now you've got a three-lane freeway.
01:38:04.000It's a lot more difficult to deliver and pick up and remove when you're not well hydrated.
01:38:10.000So the sodium and carbohydrate and other things that can help, you know, you will sweat less, you will retain the fluids, it will tremendously improve your stamina and endurance.
01:40:10.000Now, this is for people that want to go above and beyond the requirements of athletic commissions.
01:40:15.000That's for people that are saying, okay, I'm going to show...
01:40:19.000The world that regardless of whether or not you think that the athletic commission's urine tests are flimsy, we're going to take some like voluntary tests that are much more stringent.
01:40:29.000We're going to find See, that's the key word here is voluntary.
01:40:36.000So some people, this whole deal with the, quote, Olympic-style testing, which is not really what it is, but got started with Floyd Mayweather.
01:40:45.000He was the one that was demanding with Shane Mosley and Victor Ortiz and these other guys that he's fought that everybody that fights him, you know, if you want to fight the best, you've got to take the test.
01:40:58.000But that's really not Olympic-style testing.
01:41:01.000That word doesn't apply at all to me because at the core of that definition is 24-7, 365. And as I said earlier, if he's doing this eight weeks out from a fight, of course, if you're hungry, a half loaf of bread is better than none.
01:41:13.000But what was he doing six and nine months before, as we talked about?
01:41:17.000So you could load up like crazy for months and months.
01:41:20.000And still retain some of the benefits of it.
01:41:22.000Show up and retain a lot of the benefits and then show up at a fight and say, okay, you're the guy when you're ready to go into the testing and then drag him into it the following day.
01:41:31.000Is it a case of where there's smoke, there's fire?
01:41:34.000I mean, with all these, like Manny Pacquiao is a perfect example.
01:41:38.000Manny Pacquiao was, he's gone through eight different weight classes.
01:41:41.000Manny Pacquiao started off, what was he, a hundred and what pounds?
01:42:07.000I mean, there's no doubt in my mind that when you're not subjected to testing and, you know, do I think it's been going on for a very long time, including, you know, back in the Philippines?
01:42:24.000But I want to go back for just a minute to what you were asking about VADA and the aspect of being voluntary.
01:42:32.000And this is what Nonito is doing now, is he just stepped up.
01:42:37.000And this is a great thing that's different than USADA or commission testing, is that both fighters, wherever they're fighting, are going to be subjected to the same testing.
01:42:47.000Or these guys now, we want a contract, and we're both going to...
01:42:51.000Do this testing, and here's who's going to do it.
01:42:53.000It's going to be Vada, it's going to be USADA, or whatever.
01:42:57.000Nonito just entered a 24-7, 365. He's in the pool just like an Olympic athlete, and whenever they come, and he's able to do this on an individual basis.
01:43:08.000So if his opponent wants to do it, great.
01:43:10.000If he doesn't want to do it, he offered it to the guy from Japan that he fought the other night.
01:44:15.000I had three different meetings with them and went over thousands of pages of documents.
01:44:19.000And it wasn't an exchange for leniency.
01:44:21.000I got nothing out of it other than me trying to make a contribution to the collective effort.
01:44:28.000Thereafter, I helped Dwayne Chambers, a sprinter that I worked with from the UK. And he asked me to Write a paper that listed every single drug that I gave him, the purpose, the frequency, the dosage, the brand, which I did.
01:44:45.000And so he submitted that to the UK anti-doping.
01:44:48.000And then some people from BBC asked me for my prescription.
01:44:54.000And so I wrote a paper about how the testing could be set up in a way that would be much more effective, and that got submitted to WADA.
01:45:02.000And eventually they reached out to me and flew me to New York, and I met with the chairman at that time, Dick Pound, and spent a lot of time with him and working on him.
01:45:16.000And so, anyway, so I provided consultation with them and have worked on them with several different projects.
01:45:23.000And so Margaret Goodman from Vada reached out to me, and yes, I provided consultation to her.
01:45:30.000Margaret Goodman, formerly of the Nevada State Athletic Commission.
01:45:33.000Yes, she was the chairman of the Medical Advisory Board for nine years, and her significant other, who's also the Vice President of Nevada, is Flip Hamansky, who was the chairman of that same Nevada Medical Advisory Board for a decade before that.
01:45:49.000He's actually the guy that implemented the very first anabolic steroid testing in the state of Nevada.
01:45:53.000Now, how is the distinction made between what is legal and what is illegal?
01:45:59.000Like ZMA, even though it's effective and it makes your body produce more testosterone and growth hormone and all this good stuff, that's it.
01:46:23.000And I'll tell you the interesting aspect and drastic difference between state commissions And WADA and USADA and VADA, or anybody that follows the World Anti-Doping Code, is the way their system works is everything is illegal unless you get permission from us.
01:46:44.000So any drug, I mean, whatever it is, so if you go to them and you say you need testosterone and you submit your medical records and you get one, but that's even actually more restrictive, if that makes sense.
01:46:56.000So you have to make a declaration, you have to tell us what you're taking in advance, and if we don't like what it is, then we'll let you know.
01:47:04.000Do you feel like testosterone replacement shouldn't be a part of any sport?
01:47:08.000Do you feel like it's just might as well be cheating or it's just too easy to manipulate?
01:47:16.000I've talked about this as an example with baseball players when they had a couple of positive tests for synthetic testosterone recently, actually three of them, and there's been seven or eight in the last six months.
01:47:27.000These fast-acting creams and gels, they can play a game, 10 o'clock, they rub this cream on after the game.
01:47:33.000It peaks at about four hours in the system, aiding with recovery and tissue repair.
01:47:39.000By eight hours, they're back down to baseline, but six hours later, they're below the 4 to 1 TE ratio.
01:47:45.000So they can use it every single day to enhance recovery after games, and they will never test positive.
01:47:58.000And, in fact, before Ryan Braun, the MVP who tested positive, that was the home run guy, and, in fact, he's up this year, I think, for the same title.
01:48:10.000But I said back then, when they got ready to introduce growth hormone, that it was a huge mistake and it was a waste of money.
01:48:18.000Growth hormone, in my opinion, And according to the researchers at Stanford, does not enhance performance.
01:50:54.000Like, who was the first person to figure out how to manipulate hormones and add different things and, you know, DHEA? Okay, we'll talk about Dianabol, the first American steroid in a minute, in which this guy Ziegler, weightlifting coach for the United States in the 50s, got it from the Soviet bloc.
01:51:30.000It was about baseball and Ryan Braun and the specific test.
01:51:35.000And I got a call from the editor, Terry Thompson, of the New York Daily News Sports Department.
01:51:41.000She was asking for my comment about...
01:51:43.000That they are going to do this growth hormone test in baseball and introduce it to the minor leagues.
01:51:48.000I said, it's not the highest and best priority for the funds that are available to do testing.
01:51:55.000They need to introduce this CIR, this carbon isotope ratio testing, because that has a significant effect upon performance and the players are doing it on a daily basis.
01:52:06.000And they're coming back under the 4 to 1, and it's a huge loophole.
01:52:10.000And they should, instead of doing this with growth hormone, which is an anti-catabolic agent, you could eliminate the use of the anabolic agent, testosterone, with those exact same dollars.
01:52:36.000No, there's a lot of people that, depends on a lot of other factors.
01:52:40.000I mean, doctors are prescribing it, it's off-label use.
01:52:44.000You know, that's, I don't know about the legality of it, but in, you know, places like Florida and Arizona and Nevada, there's a lot of these clinics that are for anti-aging longevity purposes.
01:52:55.000I'm sure they're They're legally prescribing it.
01:53:18.000At the most, after an injection, they can possibly detect it maybe up to 36 hours.
01:53:24.000What's the future when it comes to this stuff?
01:53:26.000Because it makes me think that if you're sticking pellets in your ass and butterflying them in there and all the different stuff, the creams and all this different jazz, how far are we from real genetic manipulation?
01:53:40.000How far are we from something that changes human beings on the level of the information that's inside their cells?
01:54:37.000They'll figure out how to genetically modify human beings.
01:54:39.000I want to go back and clarify my position, what I think about the use of testosterone.
01:54:46.000And because you have the ability through this carbon isotope ratio testing, To differentiate between endogenous and exogenous testosterone, regardless of the delivery system, that it should be classified like all the rest of the anabolic steroids.
01:55:02.000In other words, it's not quantitative.
01:55:04.000Well, you can have up to four to one, or you can have allowed so much, but over that, it either has to be It's qualitative.
01:55:33.000It's an interesting philosophical debate.
01:55:37.000I've heard guys say that they would take testosterone and they would take human growth hormone when they get to be 50 years old, but they will not take it while they're fighting because they don't want to ever think.
01:55:50.000The only reason why I got here is because I cheated.
01:57:37.000And you can hurt someone in a situation where maybe you couldn't hurt them.
01:57:42.000When Cyborg tested positive and everybody said, first of all, they said, duh.
01:57:47.000And then after they said, duh, they said, well, think about the beating that she gave Gina Carano.
01:57:53.000Would she have even been able to do that if she was natural, if she wasn't just ridiculously freakish, man-like strong?
01:58:01.000And she says that's the only time she ever did anything, and who the fuck am I to guess?
01:58:04.000But from what I've talked to, we had a hormone doctor on the show, Dr. Steve Graham, and he said it's not even possible for a woman to look like that if she's not taking testosterone.
01:58:14.000I have a friend named Bill Romanowski who once said, as soon as an athlete starts to use drugs, they become a liar.
01:59:13.000At the Association of Ringside Physicians meeting they presented some data and they said that of the men over 45 that 8% Had a medical need for testosterone replacement therapy.
01:59:27.000So it's not like you hit 35 and it's over.
01:59:31.000Well, it's also what we talked about earlier that an ethical person, when they want to adjust your hormones, the first thing they're going to look at is your diet, your exercise, and your sleep patterns.
02:00:01.000They're loaded with cadmium, which inhibits the absorption of zinc, and zinc reduction lowers androgen receptors and increases estrogen receptors.
02:00:12.000So keep smoking, and you'll become more feminine.
02:00:14.000And if you don't have zinc in your body, you have smaller loads.
02:00:27.000Like, semen reduction has been observed.
02:00:29.000There's a famous study by Dr. Ohm, and he was trying to figure out why Alcoholics develop feminine-like characteristics, and alcohol depletes zinc.
02:00:44.000And over time, that reduces your testosterone, that reduces the number and size of androgen receptors, and then increases the number of estrogen receptors.
02:00:57.000So if you're an alcoholic, You better load up on zinc.
02:01:01.000Alright, I need to get some zinc ASAP. Zinc and water.
02:01:04.000Alcohol is also an immunosuppressant, right?
02:01:07.000What exactly does that do to your system when you drink alcohol?
02:01:10.000And zinc is a very powerful immunostimulant.
02:01:13.000You know about zinc, throat lozenges, and zinc is everywhere.
02:04:39.000Yeah, because if you get them in a can, man, you're getting all the shit that's in a can.
02:04:42.000You mean like sodium and other preservatives?
02:04:45.000Yeah, and I guess they don't have the same issues as sardines do, but canned sardines, I had my blood work done and it showed high levels of arsenic.
02:04:53.000You were talking about nutritionally dense foods earlier in the greens.
02:05:09.000Well, according to guys like Rob Wolf, these paleo guys, they say cholesterol is not the problem.
02:05:15.000The problem is that people are, first of all, they're eating a bunch of shitty foods and that they're eating a bunch of grains and pastas and gluten-based products and that they're not getting fat from animals that live off a healthy diet, grass-fed diets.
02:05:31.000You know, a body that lives under grass-fed meat and grass-fed milk is actually far healthier than cows that are eating grains and fucking up their entire body so that they can have good marbling for the steak.
02:05:43.000Do you advise fighters on what type of protein they take in their body and how do you do that?
02:05:50.000Well, different species at different times.
02:05:59.000I mean, you can protein powder all you want, but at the end of the day, there's benefits to animal protein that you're not going to get from whey.
02:06:46.000They're very difficult to digest and metabolize.
02:06:49.000So a lot of guys, really, when they're starving to make weight, before a fight, they want to eat red meat.
02:06:54.000And I always advise them to cut it up into very small pieces because you can really slow things down by trying to digest big chunks of meat.
02:07:01.000And you should really chew the shit out of it, too.
02:10:11.000I mean, throughout the whole BALCO trial back from 2004 forward, I would have difficulty even standing up.
02:10:17.000We made 15 appearances in federal court.
02:10:20.000So I've always had this problem, but then a while back, it just...
02:10:25.000This bottom disc just slipped, or vertebrae, excuse me, slipped forward and started pinching the nerve, and I've been really having problems, so I haven't been...
02:10:35.000I would just think that, you know, working with all these guys and helping all these athletes, you'd want to try some of that shit.
02:12:05.000A guy across the freeway from Balco called up and said...
02:12:10.000You guys need to come get your trash out of my trash bin because I'm going to call the police.
02:12:15.000So we went over there and found our garbage and brought it back over and had the big black garbage...
02:12:23.000And inside all the little white garbage bags throughout the whole 7,000 square foot lab facility, you could see that they'd been going through these.
02:12:33.000So we got a call a couple weeks later and said, listen, I told you to get this stuff out of here.
02:12:38.000So we went back over there and got it again.
02:12:40.000So I decided, you know what, let's just call the police ourselves.
02:12:43.000So we called the Burlingame Police Department.
02:12:48.000They went over, and Jeff Nowitzki was illegally dumping the trash, violating whatever the penal code is for using somebody else's dumpster.
02:12:56.000And so they ended up writing an article about this in the Burlingame Boutique and Villager, the little rag newspaper there in Burlingame.
02:13:05.000And apparently they delivered it to Nowitzki's door, and he realized that we were on to him.
02:13:10.000So shortly thereafter, here came the SWAT team.
02:13:12.000They thought we were going to cover up all the evidence and destroy things, and they needed to act quickly.
02:13:17.000So they hustled and put together this SWAT team, and there was customs and narcotics and IRS and many different agencies.
02:13:36.000You probably don't remember this, but they had it on CNN. It was all staged.
02:13:42.000And how I know this is as soon as they came after us inside the building with the guns and they marched us to the front door, we sat in the lobby.
02:13:50.000And I could look right out the front door.
02:13:52.000And next thing you know, here comes the ABC, the NBC, the CBS trucks, and up go the satellite dishes.
02:14:05.000Within a minute's time, here's all the news.
02:14:07.000And in fact, ultimately, I was able to get one of the people at NBC through a reporter that I knew who had taken a picture of the helicopter.
02:14:17.000And as it turned out, they said in these legal documents that they didn't have a helicopter there.
02:14:25.000But it was hovering so close to the front door that the louvers over the window actually cracked from the vibration.
02:14:31.000And I managed to get a picture of the helicopter and get the number off of it and trace it over the bay there to Hayward, and it was a company called Helinet, We went to their website, and they did all sorts of governmental work, including the transport of nine U.S. presidents.
02:15:06.000They contacted these newscasters and said, Park down the street with your vans, and we're going to raid this place, this Balco Laboratories, and we don't want you to film the actual raid, but we want you to get the aftermath.
02:15:43.000President Bush is talking about this in the State of the Union address.
02:15:47.000John Ashcroft, the U.S. Attorney General, is announcing my indictment on the steps of the White House.
02:15:55.000Listen, I pled guilty to, I don't know if you know about units in the federal guidelines, but at that particular time, a 10cc bottle is one unit of any type of steroid.
02:16:07.00050 pills of any type of steroid was one unit.
02:17:51.000Well, you hear all sorts of numbers, you know, 55, 60, you know, and beyond, even before they took Barry Bonds and, you know, aside from Balco with his own trial on perjury, they probably spent $100 million.
02:18:25.000I was working with track athletes, including Greg Trafalis, the guy that I told you that tested positive and they covered up his drug test.
02:18:32.000And I was at the Bruce Jenner Classic in San Jose at San Jose City College.
02:18:37.000And I was working with a number of athletes that went to the College of San Mateo, which is where Nonito still does his track training.
02:18:46.000Greg's coach, we won't name him for now, was there.
02:18:52.000Now he's probably 70 years old, but he still coaches up there.
02:18:56.000And I walked up to the bend of the 200 meters.
02:19:00.000They were getting ready to start the race.
02:19:02.000And all of a sudden, I realized that one of the young girls, she was 19 at the time, she became a national javelin champion, was standing there with his coach.
02:19:13.000And all of a sudden, she started scratching his arm, and he started rubbing her, and you could see there was a little something going on there.
02:20:20.000So, Greg got mad at me because when he found out I was giving designer stuff to athletes, he told his coach, who told his brother, who told Nowitzki, and Nowitzki knew that it was Barry Bonds and all these elite athletes.
02:20:35.000So for one year, he came every single Monday night across the freeway, he still lives right over the freeway, and went through my trash until he found enough evidence to go to the prosecutor, Jeff Nedrow, and get $300 to buy a membership to the World's Gym right next door to Balco there where Barry Bonds was trained by Greg Anderson.
02:20:56.000And so all I'm saying is this is really how it started.
02:21:47.000In my opinion, what you have is one group of cheaters, the athletes and those helping them, being chased by another group of cheaters, The law enforcement and anti-doping.
02:22:01.000And they cheat equally as much, if not more so, than the athletes.
02:22:05.000How do the anti-doping people cheat, other than what you said before, where they get rid of some positive tests?
02:22:24.000When they came to her, they said, and this is what they do and why I'm so grateful that I never considered cooperating with them in any way, shape, or form.
02:22:35.000But they came to her and they said, listen, you're going to get a two-year ban.
02:22:38.000We'll reinstate you in one year if you cooperate.
02:22:42.000They wrote a script and they had her go around all over New York, Copenhagen, London, all these different places and tell lies that they knew were absolute lies.
02:22:54.000In other words, she'd used drugs for 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003. They got all the drug calendars.
02:23:02.000But the story was I went to this big bad wolf, Victor, and he told me that it was vitamins, but two weeks later he called and told me that it was the real stuff, and then I didn't take it again all the way until 2003, and then from March until I became the double world champion, then I took him again.
02:23:21.000She lied to the grand jury and said she didn't inject EPO. She committed perjury.
02:24:07.000Then they came back to her and they said, okay, well you've done all these things, you've testified against all these people, you've said everything that we want you to say, and she said, great, now reinstate me and let me get back on the track.
02:24:20.000And they said, oh, well by the way, we forgot to tell you, Kelly, you've got to go to the IAAF and every single penny, you know that $350,000 that you made, pay it all back to them and maybe they'll let you back.
02:24:33.000You have to pay back everything you ever earned as a track and field athlete.
02:24:36.000Well, they didn't tell her that up front.
02:24:39.000This is the kind of stuff that they do to anyone and everyone that does cooperate with them.
02:24:44.000At the end of the day, let's look at this now.
02:24:46.000Let's take it a step forward with Floyd Landis.
02:24:49.000Remember when there was going to be the whistleblower that they had $30 million and he was going to get a certain percentage of that, 10% or $3 million, and he filed a federal claim and he was cooperating with them and then at the end of the day, now they're charging him.
02:25:20.000Me personally, they said that I said things the day of the raid that I never said.
02:25:25.000And the things that I did say, they deleted it from the report.
02:25:28.000Now understand, I filed a declaration under penalty of perjury with the federal court saying that these guys lied and every single thing they said in this memorandum of interview And all this is missing from this memorandum of activity.
02:25:42.000Well, you don't see them coming after me for perjury.
02:26:01.000And that's often the case that people complain about all sorts of situations where people get busted for something, that the cops want to...
02:26:07.000They want to pin them with the crime, so they will sometimes manufacture evidence.
02:26:13.000They will sometimes manipulate the law.
02:26:24.000Is the bad guy the guy who took steroids so he could hit the ball better?
02:26:28.000Or is the bad guy the guy that spent hundreds of millions of dollars, taxpayers' money, that could have been spent on schools, that could have been spent on...
02:26:37.000You know, healthcare, electricity, food for the elderly.
02:28:58.000What happened was that they were doing a test and this committee and all the minutes came out.
02:29:05.000This was published in 2009. In the Orange County Register.
02:29:09.000And they basically said, well, listen, our whole team will, you know, a lot of it will not be going to the Olympics if we come out with this, so let's just say that this particular testing was experimental, and let's take the B sample and pour it down the drain.
02:29:30.000The team going to Seoul to represent the United States, that is the group where they had 100 positives, 50 were covered up, and selectively...
02:29:39.000He was one of those 50. There was always a deal with that Olympics, that there was corruption in that Olympics because of Roy Jones' loss in the finals against the Korean fighter, which was one of the worst shitty decisions in boxing history, where Roy Jones lit this kid up like a Christmas tree, and at the end of it, they gave the decision to the Korean, and everybody just went, what?!
02:30:03.000I mean, in Korea, it was one of the most ridiculous shows of corruption ever.
02:30:09.000So let me suggest that when you can, watch this recent 9.79 asterisk show, because they interview all the eight guys that were in the race, but the most interesting part is a friend of Carl Lewis's...
02:30:24.000And they even interviewed his manager, Joe Douglas, got into the actual drug testing room where Ben Johnson was.
02:30:35.000And he was drinking beer so he could urinate.
02:30:39.000And they actually showed pictures on this show of this guy sitting next to Ben Johnson and the beer.
02:30:46.000And he wouldn't go on camera, but at the end, and Charlie always said that it was sabotage, that somebody spiked his beer with a stenozolol, a Winstral tablet.
02:30:56.000And when they asked the guy to go on the record, he said no, but he made a statement, and they said, well, did you, you know, did you sabotage Ben Johnson and put a Winstral tablet in his beer?
02:31:09.000And he said, maybe I did, and maybe I didn't.
02:31:14.000So Ben Johnson wasn't on steroids when he competed in the Olympics?
02:31:18.000Well, he was clearly on steroids because it all came out in the Dublin Inquiry later when they brought in all the athletes and his teammates and Charlie Francis.
02:31:26.000But he had gotten to a point where he was in undetectable levels for testing.
02:31:29.000They just tapered off in time because there was no out-of-competition testing.
02:31:32.000So they'd done this many, many times and they just would go off three weeks out knowing that it would take that long to clear.
02:31:39.000They'd done it many world championships and other meets before.
02:31:42.000And that particular competition, he came up positive.
02:31:46.000And didn't he come up really positive, too?
02:31:48.000Like it would have been a huge mistake?
02:32:51.000People just winning is so fucking awesome.
02:32:55.000How do you keep guys from cheating now?
02:32:56.000If you're working with all these athletes and you have this past, I mean, obviously the threat of going back to jail, I'm sure, isn't enticing to you.
02:33:03.000But how do you keep athletes on the straight and narrow?
02:33:07.000The only way that's going to happen is if the people that make the majority of the money from sport, whether that be baseball, football, UFC, Olympics, whoever it is, When they develop a genuine interest, then they can implement a reasonably effective testing program.
02:35:12.000It's an endurance enhancer, a massive endurance enhancer.
02:35:15.000In a word, I don't care who you are, Dwayne Chambers described it best one time when he said, it turns you into a machine.
02:35:25.000How many MMA fighters do you think are on EPO? Well, if in total of all performance-enouncing drugs, it's in the neighborhood of 50%, maybe 20%.
02:35:37.000So 20% could possibly be on EPO. So when you see people with ridiculous cardio and they can go five rounds at a 100% clip, you get suspicious.
02:35:46.000It's very easy to get this stuff and use this stuff.
02:36:12.000So you get that panel of about 30 to 35 steroids, plus the TE ratio is included.
02:36:17.000Long story short, I used to buy those tests from Quest Diagnostic, the exact company that does the Nevada State Athletic Commission testing, for $80.
02:36:27.000So what would a blood test, a blood and urine, the correct type of testing cost?
02:36:32.000How much of a difference are we talking about?
02:37:31.000What do they do if they find out when they implement reasonably effective testing and everybody's on, and then when everybody gets off, the performance sucks and it becomes like women trying to chase those Olympics medals that the Russians made when they were hopped up on dick saws?
02:37:45.000Okay, I think that answer has been provided by baseball.
02:38:25.000Listen, I've said this before, and I've been told that there were three positive drug tests that were covered up at the Olympic Games, and you have to look at the highly suspicious nature of what happened with Flojo.
02:39:11.000Well, she was an interesting case, too, because she was, I wouldn't say a mediocre runner, but she was nowhere near the level that she was at her prime just a couple years previous to that.
02:39:22.000Well, in the 84 Olympics, her 100-meter best was 1096, and 200-meter was 2196. Four years later, in 88, she ran 21.34, so 96 to 34 is 5-6 meters faster, and from 10.96 to 10.49, which is 4-5 meters faster.
02:39:45.000Imagine if you're running and she's 5 meters ahead of you.
02:39:48.000Many people said that they sold her all kinds of drugs, a 400-meter drug.
02:39:52.000Runner from, I believe he was from Seattle, Daryl Robinson, you know, came forward on the Today Show and said that, listen, I sold her all kinds of drugs.
02:40:59.000They can look at a percentage of young, middle-aged, and older red blood cells, and if that percentage is outside, then have they ever brought a case and made it stick?
02:41:09.000It's very tough, because that's a subjective test.
02:41:16.000This is a rumor that I heard, but it makes a lot of sense.
02:41:21.000This is what I believe they do, is during each and every stage, they wait until they know the testing window is over, and then they re-infuse their red blood cells.
02:41:31.000They come back at the end of the stage, they extract those red blood cells, so if they get tested in the morning, they're going to be within the normal range.
02:41:40.000They also take testosterone, either by cream, gel, or patch.
02:41:45.000Which, as I talked about with baseball players, it goes up and goes down, so by that time in the morning when you would be tested, you would be within the normal TE ratio.
02:41:53.000The joke that was going around was that with Floyd Landis, that he had a horrible stage 16, came in that night and got drunk and forgot to take the patch off.
02:42:03.000Tested positive, 11 to 1 is TE ratio in the morning.
02:42:11.000What I'm saying is they're now using this term right under the testers' noses, meaning they're doing this on a daily basis.
02:42:21.000And did Lance Armstrong get away with it for so long because he was the poster boy, because he was the golden child?
02:42:27.000Well, they supposedly now are accusing the cycling union...
02:42:33.000Of helping cover up a positive drug test where he gave $100,000 to them and the next thing you know they had a $60,000 to $70,000 piece of equipment that they were using in the laboratory.
02:43:14.000I'm so obsessed with the idea of this constant desire, especially in track and field, to just shave tenths of a second and seconds off of your time.
02:43:24.000Let's talk about that for just a second because I wrote an article about this in the New York Daily News back starting in – it was right before the Beijing Olympics in 2008.
02:43:35.000And this is when it first came to my attention.
02:43:38.000And my opinion is that Memo, the same guy that was in the Balco case and that Nowitzki got no consequence and he's still out there.
02:43:45.000But I watched the women's 100-meter final at the Jamaican trials.
02:43:52.000And Veronica Campbell was an Olympic gold medalist and a world champion and, I mean, really just one of the best sprinters expected to win both events at the trials.
02:44:02.000She ran a very fast 10.88 and came in fourth.
02:44:07.000Didn't even make the team in the 100 meters.
02:44:09.000Said, who are these people, these other girls?
02:45:12.000What just happened in London is, from the exact same coach, Glenn Mills, there on this very small island, in the 200-meter, they win gold, silver, and bronze.
02:45:46.000Probably a lot of stuff, in my opinion.
02:45:48.000They're just doing it and tapering off before the Olympics and still keeping the effects.
02:45:52.000Because they don't go there during the off-season that I described, that October through January period, I believe it's just open season, green light, use and do whatever you want.
02:46:03.000What's going to happen if they ever do that?
02:49:51.000We've got a lot of people coming up next month.
02:49:53.000One of them is Dr. Peter Dewsburg, who is the biologist from the University of California, Berkeley, and he doesn't believe that HIV causes AIDS, and this is going to get really weird.
02:50:03.000We should bring AIDS blood into the place.
02:50:12.000This is another case where I'm too stupid to really have this conversation with this guy, so I'm going to have him on, and then I am sure there will be people that want to provide a rebuttal.
02:50:22.000I will find someone who is actually scientifically able to break down what was wrong with what Mr. Dewsburg said, and I will allow the two of them, if Mr. Dewsburg wants to come back, to do it together.
02:50:54.000Listen, folks, this fucking podcast is over.
02:50:56.000We want to thank you very much just for being bad motherfuckers, ladies and gentlemen.
02:51:01.000If you want to come see us, Minneapolis is sold out, but San Francisco people, we will be at the Knob Hill Masonic Center 1102. That is November 2nd and November 3rd.
02:51:56.000Come get right back in there, you fucking silly bitch.
02:52:01.000So thanks to everybody for listening to the program.
02:52:03.000Thanks to Onnit for sponsoring the show.
02:52:05.000Go to O-N-N-I-T and use the code name ROGAN and you will save yourself 10% off any and all supplements.
02:52:12.000We also, besides just the supplements, we carry kettlebells, battle ropes, and now blenders.
02:52:18.000When you buy a new blender, the Blendtec blender, which is excellent for making the vegetable smoothies, And also Bulletproof Coffee, which by the way, I'm drinking today, ladies and gentlemen.
02:53:34.000It's all Cordyceps mushrooms and B12. It's all stuff that's been shown to enhance endurance.
02:53:38.000and the science and all the information again is available at Onnit.com alright you fucking freaks we're taking a whole week off I hope you're going to be okay but we're going to do an Ice House Chronicles tonight so you can check that out but you can only check that out at Death Squad on iTunes alright so go there subscribe and maybe Kevin Pereira will do another podcast soon we have one Monday at noon Oh, snap, son!
02:54:02.000Kevin Pereira, one of the funniest fucking guys on the planet.