In this episode of the Joe Rogan Experience Podcast, the boys talk about the new Apple iPad Pro, a new high-end cellular service from Sprint called Ting, and the new bulletproof coffee from Bulletproof Coffee. They also talk about a new game that's being developed for the iPad, and why they think it's a good idea to have a coffee maker in your life. Also, the guys talk about why they don't like Starbucks and why you shouldn't be drinking coffee that's made by a company that doesn't care about your health. And, of course, there's a special guest appearance from our friend Alex Honnold, who's a part of a supplement company I own a piece of. We're also going to give you a discount code called "Save25" to get $25 off of any Ting cell phone, or Sprint service, and we'll send you a bunch of other stuff you can get for free, too. If you want to save $25, go to roganting.org/TheJoeRoganExperience and enter the promo code: JOERoganPODCAST to get 25% off your first pack of Ting's newest iPhone, iPad, or iPad mini, and get 15% off the entire retail price of $99.99 plus free shipping when you enter the offer ends on January 1st, 2020. Thanks to our sponsor, RaganThing! The Joe Rogans Podcast is a production of Gimlet Media. and hosted by , and edited by . We make quality, high-grade coffee and coffee made in Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada. This episode was brought to you, the people who make the coffee, you get the coffee and the beans and the coffee that tastes better than you're drinking it, the coffee is better than it's making you feel the coffee tastes better, and you're getting the caffeine and it tastes better because it's better than the coffee's taste better because you're going to get better at it's going to make you better at drinking it and you'll get more of it, and it's cheaper than you'll be better tasting it, too, you'll have a better experience, and more of that, you're not going to pay for it, you know what they're getting it, right there, they'll get it, they're gonna tell you that, right? we'll tell you more about it.
00:01:55.000Yeah, this is designed specifically for iPads and iPhones.
00:02:00.000One of the cool things about living in today's era is that you get amazing visual processing power from these little tablets.
00:02:08.000Like, something that would be a giant computer just a few years ago, just ten years ago, is now a little thin glass and metal piece of awesomeness.
00:03:11.000And the reason why I got involved with it was exactly what I said earlier about commercials.
00:03:17.000The idea of selling something to someone where you know it's not a rip-off.
00:03:22.000The idea of like a reasonable exchange.
00:03:24.000Instead of having the ethics of business that a lot of people have where you're just trying to squeeze every last ounce of profit Our idea is to sell the best shit we can find as cheaply as we can.
00:03:37.000We'll sell you all of the cool food items that I've gotten into, that we've talked about on the podcast, including bulletproof coffee, which I'm drinking right now.
00:03:48.000That's why sometimes I... That's one of the side effects of bulletproof coffee.
00:03:55.000I get a little bit of cottonmouth, too, if you know what I'm saying.
00:03:57.000This Bulletproof Coffee, if you're not aware, and this is a fascinating thing that I've just become aware of, there's a real issue with foods with something called mycotoxins.
00:04:07.000And what mycotoxins are is when you get coffee and you don't know how it was taken care of, or it's even in corn I've been reading, what happens is if it's stored incorrectly or harvested under certain conditions, it can develop fungus.
00:04:23.000And that fungus can actually be toxic for your body.
00:04:26.000So if you're drinking coffee and you're like, oh, I feel like shit, you might have just poisoned yourself.
00:04:33.000Poisoned yourself right now with this delicious Starbucks.
00:04:35.000Dave Asprey is actually doing research on all this stuff to try to find out exactly what the effects are, how prevalent they are.
00:04:43.000But they have absolutely been measured.
00:05:29.000No, you don't have to test you to find out if you're getting it from Starbucks, because we'd have to only feed you Starbucks for that scientific project to work.
00:05:35.000Well, I don't eat or do anything except a Trent of Starbucks for the first six hours I'm awake.
00:05:40.000Well, dude, shit you've eaten the last couple weeks could turn up in your system.
00:05:45.000That's why people fail drug tests, dummy.
00:05:48.000The point being, there's a big difference between coffee that has been cultivated from a single source and processed the way the stuff's processed.
00:07:23.000We sell fitness equipment, kettlebells, battle ropes, and there's an awesome Extreme Kettlebell DVD video that we sell as well, you know, if you...
00:07:31.000An introduction to high-end, these crazy workouts that people are putting together like this one that we have from Keith Weber.
00:08:29.000O-N-N-I-T. Use the code name Rogan and save 10% off any and all supplements.
00:08:35.000And if you haven't been there for a while, go and check it out because we've got a bunch of new crazy shit there including Killer Bee Honey, Himalayan Salt.
00:08:41.000I don't know if any of that stuff is really good for you, but it sounds badass.
00:09:57.000Well, how many times have I solo- Free solo climbed?
00:10:00.000Well, I mean, it depends on how hard, you know?
00:10:02.000I mean, I free solo easy routes all the time, but, you know, the big hard ones that you've seen videos of, I mean, that's a little more infrequent.
00:10:12.000Oh, it all depends what you call a close call, you know?
00:10:15.000But no, I haven't had any, like, serious accidents or anything.
00:10:17.000Well, have you ever had a moment where you're like, oh shit, like, this could be a problem?
00:10:24.000Well, I mean, certainly some moments where you're like, oh, this could become a problem, but never like, oh, it's all going downhill and it's about to come apart.
00:10:32.000But have you ever gotten to a point, I mean, I assume your process is you first climb it with ropes to find out where your route would be?
00:11:38.000Yeah, but so when they established it, they used pitons and hammers and they like wailed their way up the mountain, you know, because that was kind of the style of the day.
00:13:02.000I mean, because if I was going out partying every weekend, I'd probably have almost as high of a risk of death You know, like driving drunk and all that kind of stuff is what I'm doing.
00:14:17.000Did it feel weird for you to have people filming you on ropes beside you?
00:14:21.000No, so that's the thing is that generally when I film on projects like that, I do things that are well within my abilities, kind of comfortable and easy and whatever.
00:14:28.000So the 60 Minutes thing, even though it looks awesome and it's really cool, that's actually kind of like a moderate route.
00:14:32.000It's not breaking new ground for rock climbing.
00:14:35.000I mean, it had never been soloed before, and it's pretty hard.
00:14:38.000But mostly I just chose something that was aesthetic and cool.
00:14:42.000It was good enough, but it's not like...
00:15:39.000So, it's one of those things where it's not like a clear-cut, like, well, I mean, yeah, I mean, it is clear-cut.
00:15:44.000He fell off the mountain and he died, but, you know, you look at it, because he was by far the best of his generation for, like, the 80s and early 90s, and actually the 70s until the 90s, basically.
00:16:58.000Well, so earlier I said the difference between high-end soloing and recreational style.
00:17:02.000So if you're counting recreational, just going out and climbing fun routes after work or whatever, there are tons of climbers that go soloing.
00:17:08.000But high-end style, like pushing it on hard, you know, hard, hard routes, like the kind of videos that you're watching where you're like, that looks insane.
00:17:15.000Then right now there's maybe a half dozen dudes in the world that have things similar like that, you know.
00:17:21.000But you are known as the one who does the most ridiculous routes.
00:17:28.000You're the one who's known as the guy who...
00:17:51.000I mean, I had seen, like, maybe, you know, I had randomly gone across videos on the internet of people climbing things, but I really had never seen anything where people were climbing without ropes.
00:18:02.000So when I first saw you doing it, I mean...
00:18:04.000I mean, there's a rich, like, tradition of it, especially in California.
00:18:07.000Actually, in Southern California, all the best climbers in the country in the 70s came from SoCal, and they were all, they were called the Stone Masters.
00:18:14.000And Joshua Tree, which is just local, has a huge history of Solong.
00:18:19.000I grew up hearing Solong stories and thinking it was cool and whatever.
00:18:53.000So there are competitions in climbing, but it's kind of like skiing or something where it kind of subdivides into like Olympic style competition skiing.
00:19:01.000And then there's like big mountain type dudes who make videos and just like go rage in Alaska.
00:19:05.000So I'm kind of one of those like big mountain type dudes that just goes and rages and makes videos and does whatever.
00:19:58.000A lot of climbers who've only been climbing a few years could climb that difficulty level, but they just would never want to do it without a rope.
00:20:05.000They don't have that motivation to be like, I want to climb a huge face with no protection.
00:20:09.000Now, when you say that it's no big deal that you were the first person to free solo something, that is a big deal.
00:20:59.000So, like, for the 60 Minutes one, for example, I'd climbed it a month before just to, like, see if it was reasonable, and I was like, okay, I could definitely do this.
00:21:06.000And then maybe 10 days before I climbed it again with more, like, intention.
00:21:10.000And there are basically two hard parts on it, and the rest is sort of, like, filler, you know, like, moderate climbing.
00:21:15.000Like, the type that I could easily do first try or whatever.
00:21:18.000Now, when you say hard parts and you get to a place, what makes it a hard part?
00:21:23.000So the crack is like thinner, so you have less of your finger inside.
00:21:25.000So you have to like pull harder and the feet get bad and it gets steeper.
00:21:31.000Basically it just becomes more strenuous.
00:21:33.000But so both of those two sections were maybe, you know, 10 movements long.
00:21:37.000So they're maybe like 15, 20 foot sections.
00:21:39.000And I just have to memorize like 10 or 15 moves where I'm like, okay, and then I do my left hand to that little thing and then I pull really hard and then I raise my foot, you know, that...
00:21:46.000So as you're going up this in a rope, are you just visualizing going along it, or are you actually fitting it with your hands?
00:21:55.000Well, so I'm climbing it, and then some of it I marked with chalk, which is totally normal for climbers to put a little tick next to things, so you remember which part of the crack is good.
00:22:03.000And then I would memorize, like, okay, this is the way to do it.
00:22:06.000And then while I had the rope on, I tried a couple different ways on one part to see which felt more secure, things like that.
00:22:51.000I think people would see and be like, what the F? No, with photographs of the actual mountain itself, I think that would actually be a cool book.
00:23:25.000I mean, I wouldn't call it an error, but I've had a handful of times where I've gone out to solo something without pre-inspection, where I'm just like, oh, I'm just going to go up it and see how it goes.
00:23:32.000Then I go maybe halfway up, and I'm just like, ooh, I'm not feeling it, and then I just climb back down.
00:23:36.000So do you proceed if you know for sure that you can't climb back down?
00:23:46.000And if I know that I'm about to, like, pass a point where there's, like, no turning back, then, you know, I sort of know that that's a big deal when I think about it.
00:24:09.000So he was a big, big climber in the 70s, and he established a lot of those routes and all that.
00:24:14.000And I mean, I know what he means, that it is harder to downclimb, but the thing is, like, nowadays, I mean, I don't know, I practice downclimb, and, like, I could downclimb that.
00:24:32.000But no, I mean, I'm pretty sure that the route on 60 Minutes, if I absolutely had to, I could have hiked to the top and then downclimb the thing.
00:26:22.000The thing is, even once I made it to the rim, which took me forever, and I was getting pretty wet and pretty cold, and it was kind of messed up.
00:26:27.000And visibility was so low, I was worried about getting lost.
00:26:29.000And then once you're up on the top, it's just a big plateau, and I was hoping to hit this one trail that it was like a 10-mile hike on the trail back around to get back to the car.
00:26:37.000And even that, it's all just a field of snow and, like, white-out blizzard style, and I was just running along in my climbing shoes being like, God, I hope I can find something.
00:26:44.000But miraculously, I found the trail and made it all the way out and there's no problem.
00:28:19.000I was like, yeah, because one of the hardest and least secure parts of the whole climb is up at the very top.
00:28:24.000So you're at the top of a 2,000-foot wall.
00:28:28.000And it took me like 250 to climb the whole route, so I was probably up there at 235 at this like super hard part.
00:28:34.000I'm already kind of frazzled, you know, because you've been really focused for like two and a half hours, like trying really hard, and you're just getting a little tired and whatever.
00:28:41.000And then you get to the hardest part that's also the least secure.
00:28:52.000It means, like, so you're wearing really tight climbing shoes.
00:28:55.000It's like really precise edges on them, and you basically just...
00:28:57.000It'd be like if you took that brick wall and you leaned it back and made it a little smoother and then all you could do is stand on the little edges of the bricks.
00:29:21.000Is there a difference between a guy who does your type of stuff, like mountain climbing stuff, and And those crazy dudes who climb buildings?
00:29:28.000No, I mean, you're still just climbing stuff.
00:30:06.000The thing is, so what I was just talking about, a slab, you know, that's all about technique and precision with footwork and all that kind of thing.
00:30:11.000That's all mental and, I mean, you have to have toned calves, whatever.
00:30:15.000But then if you tip a wall back the other way and you're climbing out some kind of like overhanging ceiling...
00:30:20.000Then, I mean, it really does come down to having strong arms and strong fingers.
00:30:25.000I mean, in general, for a recreational climber, you should be using your feet and you should be using good technique and you should keep your weight over your legs.
00:30:31.000But when you get into really high-end climbing, it's like, you know, you just got to be able to pull really hard, too.
00:30:36.000I saw a video or a photograph of you holding on to some pillars or some beams and doing chin-ups.
00:31:00.000But that's got to be pretty rare that someone could even do it, too.
00:31:03.000Well, but, I mean, there are plenty of dudes who are a lot stronger on that kind of thing than I am.
00:31:07.000Is that, like, because I've heard crazy stories about these free solo climbers being able to do chin-ups with one finger, and is that, like, a thing that you could do that?
00:31:51.000This last summer, like, one of the biggest things that I've done, soloing the triple, which was, like, climbing three big faces in Yosemite in a day.
00:31:58.000The second thing that I climbed was El Capitan, which is, like, a 3,000-foot face, and I climbed it through the night, and I accidentally forgot my chalk bag at the bottom.
00:32:15.000And so it's the kind of thing where you really want a chalk bag.
00:32:18.000But I was like, well, bummer, you know?
00:32:20.000And then I did the first 800 feet and then I actually passed a party who was sleeping on the route because most people climb it over like four days.
00:33:26.000Well, you know, the fact that they're up there for like five days, you know, and then this dude climbs through and he's like, um, excuse me, do you have any chalk?
00:33:39.000Actually, so I've met that guy again since then.
00:33:41.000I think that's his favorite story because I've probably met like half the climbers on the west coast who are like, Hey, you met my buddy Steve.
00:34:32.000I mean, you see some things, you just, you're like, that looks rad, and I'd love to climb that.
00:34:36.000Do climbers ever do things like that for publicity stunts?
00:34:39.000Like, know that they're going to get arrested, but just climb something anyway?
00:34:41.000Yeah, I mean, surely you've heard of Alain Robert, the French solos guy who did the New York Times building and, like, climbed pretty much every skyscraper in the world.
00:35:33.000Some of the buildings I think he gets paid for because you know like in the Middle East they like unveil like the biggest building in the world or whatever and then they pay him to climb it.
00:36:39.000I mean, generally when you're doing any kind of counter-pressure type stuff like that, like pushing two sides, I mean, you're using your whole body as opposed to just your fingers.
00:37:52.000He started off doing the regular climbing and then just decided there's no money in this shit.
00:37:56.000Actually, I think part of it was that he had a couple of kind of terrible groundfalls where he fell soloing and got all messed up, like different things.
00:38:04.000And so I think he now has a somewhat restricted range of motion, like can't move his arms in certain ways.
00:38:09.000And so soloing on rock is kind of out of the question a little bit because real rock requires such a diverse range of movements because you never know where the holds are going to be or what direction they'll be facing.
00:38:20.000Whereas buildings are extremely uniform.
00:38:22.000So with a building, he can look at it and be like, okay, I'm going to be...
00:38:25.000Like that little clip you just saw, he did that exact same movement over and over for a thousand feet or however big that building is.
00:40:26.000There was a time where martial arts had a great mysticism attached to it, but because of the UFC, because of mixed martial arts competition, it's become much more pragmatic, and now they really understand what works and what doesn't work.
00:40:38.000So Aikido is one of those martial arts that has some practical application, but has a lot of fuckery.
00:40:45.000There's a lot of shit that just doesn't work.
00:41:59.000If you have something you really love to do, if there's anything I could ever tell anybody that's out there that's young, that's got a lot of people that are telling them to take a safe route.
00:42:09.000Hopefully there are no young people listening to this.
00:42:11.000A lot of young people listening to this.
00:42:12.000I hope they're always 16. 8 to 14 is our turn.
00:43:27.000Just find something you love to do because your life will be different than someone who just works.
00:43:33.000Because we can all get by just working and have hobbies and have family and friends that keep us entertained and have people at work that we enjoy being around.
00:43:43.000I'm not saying you don't have a good life if you're a person who works.
00:43:47.000What I'm saying is, if you have the choice, and you do when you're young, you do when you don't have commitments, you don't have a mortgage, you don't have a family, Go to what you fucking love.
00:44:44.000You climb and look at you, you happy bastard.
00:44:46.000That's why I was saying that my family has always been surprisingly supportive, you know, because I think my mom sort of values exactly what you're saying.
00:44:52.000She's like, that's what he loves to do.
00:45:59.000I'm not a scientist, so I shouldn't even be talking here, but I'm going to say it anyway because it's just a thought.
00:46:05.000The idea is that when people have reincarnations, when people say, like, oh, I'm a soldier that lived in the 1600s and I've been reincarnated and I can tell you about the boat that I was on that got sunk by the British troops.
00:46:20.000When people have those stories, I really wonder whether or not sperm, whether or not genetics, whether or not when a person makes another person, how much information is actually getting to that kid?
00:46:35.000It might be a lot more than we have access to.
00:46:38.000And it might very well be that when you are a person who has who many X of thousands of traceable generations, That all that information of all those people's lives might be somehow or another encoded in our DNA. So in her past,
00:46:56.000somewhere along that chain of life, someone had a fucking horrific experience with a spider.
00:47:50.000I think there's certain instincts that humans have that are relayed through generation after generation of experience after experience.
00:47:57.000It only makes sense that somehow or another that shit's encoded in your DNA. But human instinct is different than personal experience.
00:48:03.000Well, I think it's not because memes, they know that racism can be transferred through genetics.
00:48:09.000There's direct evidence that people who do not have exposure to racism but their parents were racist and they were adopted are more inclined to become racist or have racist ideology.
00:48:34.000And the concept is that there's a certain amount of things that you learn in life that's relayed to your children.
00:48:42.000And that's one of the reasons why children of musical people become very musical.
00:48:46.000It's very common that people have children and their children, not just because it's the environment they grow up in, but they show an instant proclivity Towards some sort of a thing that you were very good at that wouldn't have to do with your physical genetics as we think of it as forms as body type and athleticism and things along those lines,
00:49:05.000which we've already assumed transfer on and we know transfer on.
00:49:08.000But I think there's also life experience and mental things to transfer on.
00:49:14.000It doesn't mean that you're going to be racist because your dad was racist, because we know that's not the case with people that grew up with a racist dad.
00:49:21.000I have a friend whose dad just can't not be racist, no matter what it is in the news.
00:49:27.000He's like an Archie Bunker type dude, which is kind of funny, but he's just so racist.
00:49:33.000My friend, like as liberal as they come, has no inclination towards any sort of judgment of anybody.
00:49:40.000And it's probably just His response to growing up with this idiot, you know, he's sort of figured out how dumb it is, you know, he's rebounded from it, which is pretty common with people.
00:49:50.000But if he hadn't been around that guy and been in different environments, I mean, who knows how much of it is nature and nurture, but the concept is that some of it is being transmitted through information, through genetics.
00:51:51.000These fucking brown recluses, they'll climb in your shoes, you know, and you just put your shoe on and it'll sting you, and your foot's jacked.
00:51:57.000Yeah, I poured a scorpion out of my shoe in Yosemite.
00:56:22.000If you just tell somebody, though, there's this kid that's basically homeless that rock climbs a lot, you know, they're like, that sounds stupid.
00:56:28.000How did you feed yourself before the 60 Minutes thing?
00:57:38.000My dad died this summer before I stopped going to college.
00:57:42.000First off, I got invited to Youth Nationals, like the Youth World Cup type thing, because I did well at U.S. Nationals.
00:57:51.000And so it gave me an excuse to be like, I'm going to take the next semester off and just like go to Europe, do this youth comp, and then travel Europe and climb a bit, you know?
00:57:59.000So I was like, oh, I'm going to take next semester off.
00:58:04.000And so, you know, I was taking the semester off and then he left enough money for my sister and I to finish school, like life insurance, you know, for us both to finish college.
00:58:10.000And so I went to Europe, you know, did this little comp, didn't do very well, whatever, and then just never went back to college and then used the life insurance to like travel and climb for a couple years.
00:58:38.000All I knew was that I loved going climbing and that there wasn't anything else that I'd rather be doing and that I wasn't super fired up on school.
00:58:45.000So I was just like, well, I'm just going to go on a road trip.
00:58:47.000The road trip is kind of like a classic climbing thing.
00:58:49.000Everybody goes on the road trip and just travels and climbs and follows the good weather.
01:00:17.000Yeah, there's no, like, dudes who try to keep it real and go climbing with hemp rope and everybody else is like, hey, what the fuck are you doing, man?
01:00:22.000For sure with ropes, nobody's like, I want to go old school.
01:00:25.000I want to use the oldest rope possible.
01:00:26.000Well, people are weird with hemp, man.
01:00:28.000Hemp has, like, a weird sort of attachment to it.
01:02:18.000We have to start a Kickstarter for his legal fund for when the DEA comes and locks him up.
01:02:23.000Because of the National Defense Authorization Act and the Patriot Act, that guy becomes a terrorist and they lock him in some fucking cell in Guantanamo Bay.
01:02:33.000If you're selling drugs in any way, shape, or form, you're like a terrorist now.
01:02:37.000And if you're selling hemp, even though it's not even psychoactive, it's not the psychoactive form of marijuana, it's still federally illegal.
01:02:45.000And they would treat you the same way they would treat someone who was growing heroin.
01:03:24.000So they buy it, the Canadians have to grow it, we get it from them, and then we sell it.
01:03:31.000But if we grow it, they'll lock us in jail for a hundred years.
01:03:34.000If you grow the plants that you need to make hemp protein powder or hemp oil or any of that shit, they'll just lock you in jail for federal crimes.
01:03:46.000It's unbelievable how dumb the world is.
01:03:49.000It hurts my brain sometimes that it's 2013 and that with the access to information that we have, the world and the government still hasn't caught up.
01:03:59.000The people in positions of power are still operating like it's the 1950s and 1960s and everybody's fucking stupid.
01:04:39.000Hiker's Digest, number 60. Go up there and eat that fucking poor bird's eggs and try to get enough energy to make it to the top so you can stay alive.
01:04:48.000Yeah, you don't want to get the munchies while climbing a mountain.
01:04:52.000Yeah, do you have a poop bag and stuff when you go up there?
01:04:54.000If you're going up for like a week or something, then yeah.
01:04:57.000But I mean, if you're doing day missions...
01:04:58.000Have you ever had diarrhea in the middle of a climb?
01:05:41.000When you said shit all over the place, I thought you just let it go.
01:05:44.000The worst case scenario is you have a rope on and you have to poop immediately, and so you just swing to the side, you pull your harness and pants as far as you can, and you just poop all over the wall.
01:06:47.000No, so he has a rope and everything, but the thing is, he's kind of in a wide crack, and, uh, like, it's too big for him to put his hands and fists into or whatever, so he has to wedge his leg in.
01:06:55.000And so he gets his legs stuck, and he's like, stuck, stuck.
01:08:47.000So at any time if you fall, you just fall double the distance to the last piece of gear.
01:08:51.000You know, because you climb like say five feet above the last piece of gear.
01:08:54.000So if you fall, you fall that five feet plus the five feet of slack that you had out.
01:08:57.000So how does it relax, or how does the rope disconnect from the ones below it?
01:09:03.000So a second person has to climb up it after you.
01:09:05.000So if you're climbing like a thousand foot wall, then the first person climbs, you know, say 100 feet and stops, and then brings up the second person, and then they do it again over and over the whole way.
01:09:16.000It's called pitches, or like rope lengths.
01:09:18.000So you climb like one rope length, and then you do the next one, and then you do the next one.
01:09:21.000Is the technology for these pieces of equipment so good that nothing ever fails?
01:09:27.000I mean, for the most part, I mean, like, everything breaks, you know?
01:09:31.000Like, everything in life will break in the right circumstances.
01:09:33.000But climbing gear is really well made, well manufactured, and, like, pretty well tested.
01:09:38.000So, I mean, yeah, there are circumstances where you can, like, trust your life to, like, a piece of gear.
01:09:44.000Like, one little widget that you put into a crack, and you're like, well...
01:09:47.000You know, but generally, you back things up, you have it all tripled or whatever.
01:10:47.000A climber's used to falling because you're always, to get better, you have to push yourself to failure, and so you're constantly falling, you know?
01:10:54.000Obviously not for solos, but, like, but, you know, the majority of the time you have a rope on and you're climbing to failure.
01:11:00.000Now, when I asked you about your diet, do you try to stay light?
01:11:06.000One of the things when we did Fear Factor, one of the stunts that we had was people, they were hanging over this bridge by their hands, and they dropped into the water.
01:11:15.000It wasn't that far, but the idea was who could hang on the longest.
01:13:02.000It's the same as like going jogging or swimming laps or anything where you just think about whatever.
01:13:06.000You think about dinner, you think about your to-do list, things like that.
01:13:09.000So when it gets to the point where you must focus exactly on what you're doing, that's where you like it.
01:13:16.000Yeah, well, I mean, there's something fun about just going out and going jogging, too, you know, like just climbing up a big peak or something, and then when you get to the top looking around and being like, oh, that was fun, but keeping it really mellow the whole time.
01:13:26.000But for sure, the harder stuff, when it requires that extra little something, I mean, that is more rewarding.
01:13:31.000What does it feel like when you get to the top?
01:14:25.000You know, it might not be your main motivation, but for most human beings, one of the reasons why they get really good at shit is to get pussy.
01:14:33.000Well, no, for sure, as I was getting better at climbing, every time I was like, oh, if I got on the cover of a climbing magazine, then I'd get laid.
01:14:41.000And then you get on the cover and you're like, dude, nobody's calling and nobody gets a shit, you know?
01:14:46.000And then you're like, oh, if I get interviewed in, like, men's journal or something, then I'll start getting laid.
01:14:50.000And then you're like, dude, turns out nobody reads that shit either, you know?
01:14:53.000Yeah, I would feel like Men's Journal, like all those fitness magazines, you buy it when you're at the airport and you go like that, like that, like that, and then you leave it in your fucking seat in front of you.
01:15:01.000Or like, you know, the cover of National Geographic, like, oh, that'll get me laid.
01:15:22.000I think someone sent me a link and said, you gotta check this out.
01:15:25.000And I think I jumped out of my chair, and I climbed on top of it, like those cartoons where there's a mouse on the ground, you know, where you're in a crouch, and my feet were on the chair, and I was watching you climb, and I was like, what the fuck is he doing?
01:17:47.000Now, these people that do these rock climbing gyms, like that own them and stuff, do most of them do the stuff that you, like, not the stuff that you do, but the mountain stuff, or is there two distinct camps?
01:17:59.000There's people who just do gym, rock climbing, I wouldn't say they're distinct camps, but for sure they're people who just climb in the gym.
01:18:07.000Especially like the Bay Area around San Francisco and Berkeley and all that.
01:18:11.000There are probably thousands of climbers that to them rock climbing just means going to the gym.
01:18:16.000But then maybe half the people in the gym also go outdoors every weekend and all that.
01:18:21.000It would seem to me that the rock climbing in the gym could not be nearly as exciting, even if it was really good.
01:18:27.000No, but, you know, I mean, there are also people doing like Zumba in the gym to work out or whatever that means.
01:18:47.000It's just like going from doing it in the gym to going to a mountain and climbing the ropes.
01:18:53.000Well, I mean, honestly, the first times I climbed outside, I didn't like it as much because I was like, oh, how do you find the holds and all that?
01:21:57.000Yeah, I climb with a partner and a rope 99% of the time.
01:22:01.000And then, you know, the videos and stuff that you've seen are, like, the playoffs and the Super Bowl of climbing, you know, but you're not seeing all the practice and all the, like, you know, the years that go into, like, getting ready for the Super Bowl.
01:22:12.000So, for you, it's just a thrilling, fun thing to do, and it hasn't lost any of its charm.
01:22:18.000I mean, the charm has transitioned, I think, as I get older.
01:22:21.000Like, now I love to travel more, and, like, I'm pretty excited about going to Mexico and traveling around and seeing new places and all that.
01:22:27.000Whereas when I was younger, it was just a matter of trying to physically do hard moves and being like, oh, I can do whatever, this boulder problem that I couldn't do before.
01:22:49.000What is your life like now in terms of media obligations and how much of that stuff has changed?
01:22:57.000I mean, since 60 Minutes, it's obviously kind of blown up quite a bit.
01:23:02.000Yeah, I'm juggling a lot more, like, speaking opportunities and, you know, I mean, stuff like this where I'm like, oh, cool, check out something new and, like, see what it's all about.
01:23:10.000Yeah, I think it's cool that you did this because for folks listening, he had no idea what the podcast was and never listened to it.
01:23:57.000I mean, oftentimes, or like, so I'm going to Vegas, and I'll be in the van, but I mean, I'll be staying at one of my friend's houses, probably.
01:24:04.000I'll probably be sleeping in the van, but I can use this house, use the kitchen if I want, whatever, you know?
01:24:09.000So everything you own, your whole life is in a van.
01:25:52.000It's the red sandstone desert where you see like arches and like really pretty Oh, those crazy things that are just carved because of the wind and the erosion?
01:26:25.000It just shows you all the randomness of nature with the weird things that can occur.
01:26:30.000I went on a Northwest expedition to Chad in the dead center of Africa to climb unclimbed sandstone towers and arches like exactly what we're talking about in Utah except it was in Chad.
01:26:41.000Blank, empty desert, like just completely flat sand with no road, just driving GPS for three days across like flat nothingness until we got to these crazy towers.
01:26:49.000Oh my god, just desert driving for three days through the desert?
01:27:13.000Yeah, because you're driving across like, it'd be like going to the Mojave Desert and just driving cross-country completely straight for three days.
01:27:19.000Anyway, so after two days, we randomly passed these two dudes on camels that were doing the same thing.
01:27:46.000They were just, like, desert nomad dudes, you know, just, like, indigenous folks.
01:27:50.000I mean, they were just normal dudes on their normal life, but it's hard to believe that that's their normal life, just taking a camel for five days across a blank desert with no food or water.
01:27:59.000Yeah, it's hard to wrap your head around the fact that that's how people lived for a long period of time.
01:28:04.000That's what's so crazy about going to Chad, is we were meeting people that live there that in their entire life will probably never touch pavement or asphalt.
01:28:11.000They just live in sand, and that's it, for all of existence.
01:28:15.000They just tend their goats, tend their little donkeys and stuff.
01:31:21.000I mean, there was water running underground, I guess, because you could see, like, bands of vegetation that were supposedly, like, washes, you know, like an underground river.
01:31:28.000So one of the real mind fucks about the topography of this world is how it's variable.
01:31:35.000Yeah, how different parts of the world are.
01:31:37.000Not just variable, but variable in the same location over time.
01:31:41.000Like, Egypt, like, where the Nile Valley was, like, 9,000 years ago, that was a rainforest.
01:31:53.000We went into a cave and there were cave paintings.
01:31:55.000And I mean, it's all just, you know, we're in the middle of nowhere.
01:31:58.000And so you could see these stick figure drawings and it showed like these big herder people, you know, like drawings of dudes like tending their big cows.
01:32:08.000And then them being displaced by the camel people like the people of the desert and all that and our outfitter was telling us that was kind of showing the history of the whole area because like as the as the desert advanced and like the grasslands and forests you know receded like so Chad now all the all the big cow people now live in like southern southern Chad where there's still like vegetation and the rest of the country is just desert you know as the Sahara or whatever the Sahel has like moved south and desertification all that kind of stuff.
01:32:32.000It's a really strange thing that happens to the climate.
01:32:35.000Yeah, I mean, it's pretty interesting though to see like cave paintings of like this whole process of, you know, like different populations being, you know, replaced.
01:34:29.000Yeah, well, the really scary thing is that we don't know shit about Neanderthals.
01:34:35.000They're built more like gorillas than they are people, and their brains are bigger than us.
01:34:39.000Well, they're built more like gorillas than they are people.
01:34:41.000Five foot tall, 200 pounds, really thick bones, big heads, bigger heads than human beings, much larger brain.
01:34:48.000It's a really trippy thing, the idea that this crazy fuck wants to bring these things back, and that the fact that you could do it inside of a woman's body, it's pretty ridiculous.
01:35:37.000There's a lot of speculation as to what happened to them.
01:35:40.000There's also a debate as to whether or not they interbred with us or whether or not we have a common ancestor, like where our genetic material...
01:35:47.000Where we definitely have a common ancestor now.
01:35:49.000Yeah, we definitely have a common ancestor, but common enough that we have Neanderthal genes in us.
01:35:55.000Because they don't know if it's from breeding.
01:35:57.000It's kind of an iffy area they're trying to piece together now, whether or not it's from humans breeding with it.
01:36:02.000But interesting enough, the possibility of humans breeding with it was only Neanderthal males and human females.
01:37:19.000So these paintings in the Werner Herzog documentary, amazing stuff.
01:37:26.000And there are cave bears, lions, horses, bison, mammoths, rhinoceroses, and there are other animals between 30 and 32,000 year old drawings.
01:37:40.000Just think we managed to wipe out all those different animals in the last 30,000 years.
01:37:44.000Well, they don't believe that people had a play in wiping out the woolly mammoth.
01:37:48.000There's thoughts about it, but one of the more interesting thoughts about the mammoth is that the mammoth extinction coincides with what they We're pretty sure now was significant meteor impacts, meteor showers, somewhere around 12,000-13,000 years ago.
01:38:05.000When they do the strata, when they take soil samples, they found this thing called, it's like a volcanic glass, an impact glass, this big...
01:38:15.000It's like this green-looking glass that has come from either nuclear tests or meteor impacts.
01:38:22.000So when they find it all over the world, like 12,000 years ago, and that sort of coincides with some mass extinctions, a lot of the scientists are starting to speculate that that might have been what wiped out a lot of things, including a lot of major civilizations.
01:38:34.000The world just got bombarded by meteors at one point in time, about somewhere around 12,000 years ago.
01:40:01.000For sure, if I had some kind of crazy experience like that where I was like, I am 100% certain there are life on other planets, I probably would change my field a bit.
01:40:08.000Because all of a sudden I'd be like, there's definitely something more important going on in the world.
01:40:12.000The real problem with, of course, with the idea that there's some life from another planet that's visiting us is like, where the fuck's the evidence?
01:40:21.000That's what I'm saying about rationalism.
01:40:22.000However, if they're much more sophisticated than us to the point where they can travel from other planets, it seems like they could be undetectable.
01:40:30.000That's the same kind of arguments for whether there's a god or not.
01:40:33.000Not really, because the actual fact of human life...
01:40:39.000And the fact that we have technological superiority over all the animals, when you look at all the other planets and you extrapolate the amount of time that they could have existed, it's highly possible.
01:40:50.000Yeah, no, I think it's highly likely that there is life in the universe.
01:40:54.000I mean, actually, I'm sure there's life in the rest of the universe.
01:41:20.000My point is, if we're constantly exploring the universe as far as we can with our limited technological capability in 2013, Maybe that's just an aspect of intelligent life, period, that intelligent life constantly explores its dimensions and its surroundings.
01:42:37.000I mean, you know, then you might as well be regulating, like, fat people hiking, you know, because they're more likely to have a heart attack or whatever.
01:42:56.000I'm a big believer and a big supporter of personal freedom, and this is one of the few that very few people are exercising, but is really a radically dangerous pursuit for the average person.
01:43:09.000You shake your head because A, you're competent, B, you're aware, and C, it's something you love to do, and you've been doing it your whole life.
01:43:15.000You have a massive amount of experience for it.
01:43:17.000But for the average person to try to do it, it could be I mean, if everybody had to free solo climb, just stop and think about that.
01:43:44.000There are certain things that we're restricted from doing in this country, in this world, and we're restricted from taking a certain amount of chances.
01:43:52.000But that one is just still completely out there in the wild.
01:43:57.000Well, like going hiking, any kind of outdoor recreation is pretty unrestricted in the U.S. You're allowed to just wander into the woods and go have an adventure.
01:44:04.000I know, but the nanny state government that we have, I'm surprised that someone doesn't like, hey, you can't climb.
01:44:27.000So all public property, like public land?
01:44:31.000Well, actually, so national parks do have some kind of recreational management plan, so you're not allowed to drill bolts or change the rock in different ways because when you climb, you often put bolts for protection.
01:45:48.000The more I talk to you about how unique you are, I compliment you.
01:45:53.000That's your take on things, but that is also why you're so good.
01:45:57.000That's why it's so compatible with you, your personality, how you roll with things.
01:46:06.000It must somehow or another contribute to your ability to be so good at this, or your passion and desire, the way it fits in, your square hole for your square peg, you know what I mean?
01:46:17.000I think I've always loved it, and I put a lot of work into it, and I figure anybody that loves what they do and works hard at it is probably going to get pretty good at it.
01:46:32.000I have a lot of travel goals, like places I want to go climbing, and then I have actual climbing achievement goals, things that I want to climb or new things to do or whatever.
01:46:46.000Okay, you don't want to talk about it?
01:46:48.000No, well, so I actually don't really set, like, specific soloing goals because I don't really like the...
01:46:52.000Because normally when you set a goal, you go through the whole process of, like, you set the goal, you train for it, you achieve it, whatever, you know, you make it happen.
01:46:58.000But the thing with soloing is I don't really like that pressure.
01:47:00.000I don't want to feel like I have to go solo something.
01:47:02.000So generally I set climbing goals, like routes I want to climb with a rope or, you know, places I want to go.
01:47:08.000But for soloing, it's more like a soloing fantasy, you know, like something I'd love to do.
01:47:12.000And I'll sort of keep it in the back of my mind, like, what kind of shape I'd have to be in to do it.
01:47:16.000Or, like, you know, what time of year I'd have to be in what kind of shape.
01:47:19.000But it's never like, that's my goal for the season.
01:47:22.000It's more like, if it happens, it'd be sweet.
01:47:26.000Why has no one come up with a television show that follows you climbing up mountains and broadcasts?
01:47:36.000I mean, people have talked about it, but the thing is, after anybody chats with me for a while, they're like, turns out that guy's actually really boring.
01:47:42.000I don't think you're boring at all, man.
01:47:53.000You have a very distinct personality, a very distinct way of looking at this very odd life that you have that's very compatible for what you do.
01:48:12.000Like you're saying the Super Bowl stuff looks amazing.
01:48:15.000You know, like the big solos, you're like, that's rad.
01:48:17.000What you did on 60 Minutes you said wasn't even that big.
01:48:20.000Well, no, I mean, but still, I only do that kind of thing a handful of times a year.
01:48:23.000You know, the majority of the year, I'm just going out climbing with my friends, just normal climbing.
01:48:28.000You know, the same thing that people are doing in a gym, except we're doing it outside.
01:48:31.000Dude, they have shows, okay, where guys have pawn shops.
01:48:34.000I don't even want to know how dumb a shows they have.
01:48:36.000Like, I don't give a shit about bad TV. They have pawn shops, and they come in and they go, hey, man, how much you want to give me for this banjo?
01:48:43.000I have no interest in contributing to that.
01:48:45.000And the guy's like, I'll give you 200. Man, I need 250. I can't go 250. I'll give you a 225. That's the fucking show they're selling banjos.
01:48:52.000That kind of shit makes the world worse, and I don't want to contribute to that.
01:48:55.000You would not be contributing to it, my friend.
01:48:57.000What I'm saying is that people are fascinated by shit that's not even close to as interesting.
01:49:05.000I really think it would be an amazing show.
01:56:34.000You have pads over your knuckles and your wits and your techniques and your conditioning and your training and your ability to overcome the pressure of the moment.
02:01:17.000Anyway, so I saw a pitch for this climbing show where they were like, it was supposed to be Survivor meets Ultimate Fighter or something like that, but in a climbing sense.
02:01:28.000And so it was going to take non-climbers and then professional climbers, and then we'd teach them to solo, and then we'd solo big walls, and it was this whole progression.
02:01:34.000And I was like, how are you ever going to have a show where you take non-climbers and you solo walls with them?
02:01:39.000You know, it's like, the liability is, you know, you're like, dude, that's retarded.
02:03:56.000It's one of the coolest things about this podcast is that we can sit down with people that, I mean, I probably would never meet you in real life.
02:04:03.000I mean, maybe we exchange emails, but to be able to sit down face-to-face with you and have this sort of conversation.
02:04:08.000For whatever reason, it only exists because of a medium to display it.
02:04:45.000No, I was in this gifted and talented type program where everybody goes and becomes a doctor or whatever.
02:04:50.000And they invited me there to speak to tell the kids that they don't have to go to college, that if they want, they can just go and live their dream and do their thing and whatever.
02:04:56.000So it was actually super satisfying for me to go back to my old high school to be like, look, kids.
02:05:17.000Well, the program is national, but the one that is in that specific high school is quite good, and they do really well nationally and everything.
02:05:23.000And it's just where I went to high school.
02:05:25.000So one of my old teachers asked me to come back and tell the kids that even though your parents are expecting you to become a doctor, you don't have to.
02:05:31.000You can just follow your dream, travel the world, do what you love to do, that kind of thing.
02:05:35.000It was very satisfying to go back and have that talk after having gone through the program and been like, oh, I need to go to university.
02:06:18.000Well, when you're training that hard, when you're training for Taekwondo tournaments especially, I didn't party at all when I was in high school.
02:06:26.000A couple of times, randomly, I had gotten drunk at a party over my entire high school career.
02:06:32.000Maybe smoked pot twice or something like that.
02:06:34.000But for the most part, throughout high school, I was terrified that I was going to get killed in a tournament and smashed.
02:06:40.000So all I was doing was just eating healthy and drinking water and trying to sleep as much as possible and training like a demon.
02:06:47.000So that feeling of being out of high school, I'm like, there's no future in this.
02:07:00.000But the feeling that I had, that feeling of uncertainty, I think it's so important to let other people know that you had that same feeling.
02:07:09.000It's so important to do what you did and get in front of those kids and go, listen, Nobody has a map of where the fuck you're supposed to go.
02:07:18.000And there's a lot of different ways to make a living.
02:07:20.000And if you see someone who's doing something, whether they're an author or a painter or they're flying planes, whatever it is, if someone's doing it, you can do it too.
02:07:54.000I mean, how many times in your life have you seen something that was inspiring, that sort of, like, pushed you and, like, give you, like, this feeling of confidence?
02:08:03.000Like, it's like, oh, okay, that guy did that.
02:09:30.000You'd be on those climbing peaks and instead of thinking of your next foothold, you'd be thinking of her mouth on your penis and then it could get really problematic.
02:12:14.000A lot of fuckery involved, but the reason people keep going is because there was an animal called Gigantopithecus that lived as recently as 100,000 years ago that was an 8-foot to 10-foot tall bipedal primate.
02:12:26.000An enormous animal that coexisted with humans.
02:12:30.000You know, just like we drew bully mammoths, this is a real animal.
02:12:34.000So when they have these cave paintings and drawings of this big, tall, hairy thing, it may very well have been something that existed and died off because it lived in Asia.
02:12:45.000And much like people came to North America following the Bering Strait, it also could have done the exact same thing.
02:12:51.000They think it's really possible, especially because of the density of the forest in the Pacific Northwest.
02:12:56.000In fact, Jane Goodall, the primatologist, she's pretty certain that there's an actual undiscovered primate living in the Pacific Northwest.
02:13:49.000And he would flirt with all the teachers to try to get better grades.
02:13:52.000So I got to class early, and I drew a picture of him banging her, and she was screaming out, do it to me monkey style, like my hero, Jane Goodall.
02:15:55.000And do you guys look at those people as just people that are just inexperienced, shouldn't have been there?
02:15:59.000Well, no, generally there's a different, I mean, there's a publication every year, Accidents in North American Mountaineering, and it's just a list of every accident that happened over the year, and they have analysis and causes.
02:16:08.000Some accidents you read and you're like, what an idiot.
02:16:15.000The first thing that comes to mind that I've always found is totally comedic is on Half Dome.
02:16:19.000There's this long horizontal traverse where you basically walk across this little tiny ledge.
02:16:24.000It's like the photos, I don't know if you've seen any on the internet, but there's a classic photo of me standing on this little tiny ledge and it looks all crazy.
02:16:30.000If you don't place protection across the length of the ledge and you fall, you're going to just swing.
02:16:36.000It's just like a pendulum straight across.
02:16:38.000And there's a corner at the other end of it.
02:16:39.000So if you swing the distance, you're just going to swing into this corner and just get totally messed up.
02:16:44.000And so I read an accident of a Korean woman climbing, going big walling or whatever.
02:17:17.000Any kid would be like, this looks like it's going to be a Terrible idea, you know?
02:17:22.000I mean, it's pretty simple physics, you know?
02:17:24.000But then, at the other end of the spectrum, you see accidents where it's just, like, some totally safe family man or something, and, like, you know, an ice pillar collapses on him, like, say, winter climbing or something, because that happens a lot when people are ice climbing.
02:17:41.000Or like freaking the head of Knowles, I think, you know, the National Outdoor Leadership School, like the outdoor program.
02:17:47.000He was climbing some peak in Montana or Wyoming or somewhere and tourists up on top were throwing rocks off the top like, oh, we're on top.
02:17:56.000And like you hear that kind of an accident and you're like, that just sucks because, I mean, you feel bad for the dude on top though too because you're like...
02:18:19.000I mean, shit pudding is actually strongly discouraged.
02:18:22.000But generally, that only happens early morning when it started during the night and then you have to poo and then whatever and you assume there's nobody there.
02:18:29.000Have you ever had any weird wildlife experiences?
02:18:31.000Mountain lions, bears, anything like that?
02:18:33.000I mean, I've had bears eat my backpack a couple of times.
02:20:40.000It's like they've sort of figured out that there's no hunting pressure in California.
02:20:44.000Actually, I was just reading this article about urban animals, about small predators like foxes and coyotes and stuff adapting to urban environments.
02:20:51.000And how there's footage of a coyote going to an intersection, looking both ways, and then crossing the road.
02:20:56.000Because basically animals learn the same way anybody else does.
02:21:00.000It's pretty funny stuff to think about a little fox living in a skyscraper and using the streets just like anybody else.
02:23:03.000Yeah, people don't understand how dangerous grizzlies are.
02:23:06.000They think that just because they can be in their car and throw the stuff out the window that somehow or another you can stand outside the car like a guy who's really ballsy.
02:23:14.000Thinks he could go out there and do that.
02:23:15.000But that's a lot of meat to, like, dangle in front of them.
02:23:46.000We'll pull it up for you just so you can take a look at it.
02:23:48.000Yeah, but he's in like an armored case.
02:23:49.000Yeah, it's an upcoming documentary that they filmed that they designed this piece of equipment, this structure, just specifically so this guy could be dropped off there and have these bears try to get at him.
02:24:03.000Well, he's like sitting there while this enormous polar bear is like chewing at it and sniffing it and opening his mouth and trying to bite it.
02:24:12.000It's so terrifying when you're watching it because it seems like it's kind of intense.
02:24:48.000And this guy's in there, and this thing has just got its arms around the box, and it's trying to bite it, and it's trying to figure out where the fuck it is.
02:25:56.000Being this close, I get an appreciation for what this animal is.
02:26:00.000It is one of the most powerful animals on the planet, one of the most intimidating animals on the planet, and one of the few animals that actually see us as food.
02:27:51.000I would think that there's a lot- For sure it's much less predictable than rock, you know, because it's constantly, like, changing temperature and, you know- Do pieces fall off and hit you or anything like that?
02:28:13.000Because I'm pretty sure I might be doing some trips to, like, Alaska or something this year to climb bigger granite rock faces.
02:28:19.000But the thing is, when you go to places like that, I mean, it's still climbing, like, a big granite wall, which is what I normally do, but then on top there'll be, like, some sections of ice or whatever.
02:28:26.000And you have to at least be comfortable, like, hiking in your crampons and things like that.
02:28:29.000So I was like, well, I've got to at least learn how to use all this gear, you know?
02:28:36.000I mean, if somebody would pay for the trip, I probably would, just for like the life experience.
02:28:40.000But it's definitely not like a climbing thing.
02:28:42.000Actually, somebody posted some rant that you had maybe from stand-up comedy or something about making fun of people on mountains, which I was like, you know, fair enough.
02:28:53.000I mean, well, the thing is climbers make fun of that stuff, too, because like what people do in Everest is so far removed from actual climbing that it's like, you know, they don't even compare really.
02:29:03.000Well, yeah, it's like, yeah, it's a hike, but I don't know if it was your rant or another one, but I mean, you're basically hiring Sherpas to do all the actual climbing for you.
02:29:10.000And then, you know, if you're like a conventional Western client, whatever, you know, I mean, you're basically shuttled up a mountain.
02:29:20.000Actually, so I climbed Kilimanjaro like that with my girlfriend and, well, my then girlfriend in September.
02:29:26.000And just as kind of like a tourist vacation, you know, like, oh, it'll be fun.
02:29:31.000And it was my first experience with people, like, carrying all your stuff for you and setting up your tent for you and doing all the work.
02:29:36.000And I was like, dude, this is pretty, it's pretty freaking funny.
02:29:38.000I mean, I felt weird about it, but like, I mean, it is a vacation.
02:29:41.000I can see why people would do that for, you know, to feel extreme because you're like, oh, I climbed the biggest mountain in Africa, but it was like a dude brewing me tea every day and setting it up for me.
02:29:51.000You know, but as far as like going somewhere with a girlfriend, you know, I was like, oh, it's a pretty legit vacation.