In this episode of The Joe Rogan Experience, the comedian and podcaster talks about his new book, Entangled, and what it's like to be a writer in the 21st century. He also talks about how he got into stand-up comedy, and why he thinks it s better than comedy. And he tries to figure out if a monkey's a monkey. Logo by Courtney DeKorte. Theme by Mavus White. Music by PSOVOD and tyops. Thanks to our sponsor, Onnit. Onnit is the leading audio provider on the internet with over 150,000 titles and is a beautiful service that I personally use. It's a great thing to occupy your mind and actually entertain you when you would ordinarily be bored. Get your free audio book and get hooked on Audible, I know you will love it. We're also a huge fan of Audible Books and their service for any time you're commuting, any time I'm on a plane, or any other service I'm using, it's a fantastic thing to entertain me and keep me entertained while I do my best to keep my mind busy and keep my brain busy. I love it! If you like it, please tell a friend about it and I'll send you a review. And if you don't, I'll give you a discount code JRE. at checkout and you'll get 10% off your first month. JRE, plus 2 bonus months with your current JRE membership. plus a free copy of Entangled and Entangled. and an additional 30 days of the Entangled book. Joe Rogans Podcast. Thank you for listening to this episode! -Joe Rogan -Jon Sorrenta Jon Rocha -Jon Rogan - Jon Rogan's new book "Entangled" by Graham Hancock - Jonathan Rogans Jonathan Rogan: It's Not Yours Truly - Jon's New Book: Entangled is out now! Jon's new novel is out on Amazon Prime Day, and it's out now. Jon Rogans' new book is out in the world! is available in paperback! . Jon talks about the new novel Entangled! Jonathan talks about it on Amazon, War God, and much more! , and how to be an A Monkey's a Monkey, not a monkey, not an A monkey?
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00:05:29.000Alright, without any further ado, the great Graham Hancock is here.
00:05:32.000And I'm very excited to talk to you, sir.
00:06:44.000There's like what they call underground cities, which go down eight, ten stories under the earth.
00:06:50.000The idea was that people built them to hide from their enemies, but in my opinion, the last thing you'd want to do if you were hiding from your enemies is wall yourself up in some underground place where all they have to do is just put a stone across the door and you're done for.
00:07:03.000I think they had some other function than that.
00:07:05.000And yeah, we drove all over Turkey, saw a lot of amazing stuff, came back to England briefly, then went straight to Peru and Bolivia.
00:07:13.000Up in the high Andes, reached a place in a hired car, 15,000 feet above sea level, just over 15,000 feet.
00:07:22.000That's seriously high, short of breath up there.
00:07:25.000And that was on the way to a site called Chavin de Huantar, where they venerated psychedelics in ancient times.
00:07:44.000I came back from there, went to South Africa, spent five days in South Africa, got on a plane immediately after returning from South Africa and came to the United States, and I've been in the U.S. for the last two, two and a half weeks.
00:08:37.000I got seriously bored with vegetarian diet, and I'd always liked shrimps and scallops and shellfish of all kinds, lobster, stuff like that.
00:08:44.000So I went back and started, I lapsed, and I started eating shellfish.
00:08:49.000And that's kind of where I drew the line, that I would eat as far away from myself as possible, but I would definitely have some flesh, and so I pick on these creatures.
00:09:00.000There's no particular moral reason for it, it's just what I like to do.
00:09:03.000It seems a bit moral, though, if you're trying to eat things that are as far away from...
00:09:08.000But wouldn't it be ironic if I were to discover when I pass through the veil to the next world that the one thing that you're not allowed to eat ever is shrimps.
00:10:31.000I mean, everything in the web of life on this planet lives off everything else.
00:10:36.000I think maybe in our society, in Western technological society, you know, we've got so divorced from the act of actually killing an animal that we forget what we're doing.
00:11:42.000It's much better actually to go hunt an animal rather than the horrible, cold, industrial slaughterhouses that we have now and the fear and humiliation that animals are put through in that context.
00:11:53.000At least in hunting, it's kind of one-to-one, and you're out there.
00:12:29.000And I think what I'm trying to do, and I'm trying to do it this year, by the end of this year, I want to make my diet when I'm home, when I can control it, Completely wild game.
00:12:47.000This year I want to get deer, I want to get a bison, I want to get an elk, I want to get all these various animals and just do it entirely to procure meat and to bring it back home and deep freeze it and to make sure that I always have wild natural meat available if I want to eat it.
00:13:03.000Before I went hunting I decided that I'm either going to be a vegetarian After this trip, I'm either going to decide that this is really not me, that I don't really like it, or I'm going to become a hunter.
00:14:24.000And then the Indians, the natives wound up killing a lot of people.
00:14:27.000There was a lot of, like, between the Nez Perce and all these people that lived there.
00:14:31.000And the time we were there, we were there for about five days, and maybe we saw five or six other people the entire time, and they were just people going down the river in canoes, doing the same thing, hunting.
00:14:43.000So you're having a wilderness experience.
00:16:22.000And so they're designed for these quick sprints to get away from trouble.
00:16:26.000But if we're just persistent and we keep after them, There's a podcast that I've been listening to that was recommended by one of the nurses at the Reginokine, the laboratory where I'm going to get this blood work done, called Radiolab,
00:16:42.000and it dealt with this one particular tribe in Kenya that has...
00:16:47.000So many successful runners from this one particular area.
00:16:51.000And they were trying to figure out, they did all these studies to try to figure out what made them so successful.
00:17:04.000But the other one was this unbelievably brutal tribal ritual, this coming-of-age ritual that the men and the women went through that involved genital mutilation.
00:17:14.000With the men, it involved circumcision with a sharp stick.
00:17:17.000And they would cover their face with mud while they did this.
00:17:21.000And if they cracked the mud, if they squinted or winced in pain, then they would be labeled a coward.
00:17:28.000And they would not have access to women.
00:17:30.000They would be cut out of the economic situation in the tribe.
00:17:36.000It's the most recent radio lab, folks.
00:17:51.000Not only that, they keep the foreskin on, and they tie it in a bow, and they push the head of the penis through this bow, and this whole ritual takes several weeks, in which time they're secluded, and when they leave the hut, they're like secluded in this hut, when they leave the hut to do anything,
00:18:27.000It's like this perfect storm of they have an innate natural athletic ability based on their frame, and then it's also the running on a regular basis, and then also the intense ability to withstand pain.
00:18:41.000Well, again, I mean, this is all stuff in our culture that we've kind of completely got away from, set behind us.
00:18:46.000We don't even interrelate with that at all anymore.
00:18:50.000And it makes you wonder, I mean, if the shit hits the fan and our culture goes down, who can survive, actually?
00:18:56.000I think we're just going to go back to, if the shit does hit the fan, and I know that's a huge topic of your work, and what brought me to you in the first place was your work on...
00:19:07.000The very clear evidence that at certain points in history this shit clearly did hit the fan and people did have to rebuild.
00:19:13.000I watch a lot of shows on subsistence living, mostly in Alaska.
00:19:54.000They seem to be very happy and this is one of the really confusing aspects of this real traditional sort of subsistence living that people seem to feel satisfied by it.
00:20:06.000It's kind of something we were meant to do maybe in a way.
00:20:10.000I don't know if it's meant to, but it seems like we evolved to do it.
00:20:13.000Well, you have to consider that for, you know, anatomically modern humans, as far as we know, have been around for slightly less than 200,000 years.
00:20:21.000And for almost all of that period, that's what we did.
00:20:25.000We're really, you know, at least if we go with mainstream history, and certainly it's true for the majority of the human race, whether we go with mainstream history or not.
00:20:33.000It's really only in the last 10, 12,000 years that we've been doing anything else apart from hunting and gathering.
00:20:41.000It's a long time, and we've tried to upset that over the last 200 years with machines and electricity and all these different things, but we long for that.
00:20:51.000Created a fundamentally artificial way of life.
00:20:57.000It seems like our genetics just have not been able to catch up with the actual environment.
00:21:02.000But the irony of it is that all this development, all this amazing technology, all these machines, all this gear, all this equipment, somehow the promise was it would make us happier.
00:21:23.000I mean, you know, I remember with computers back in the 80s, before computers, early 80s, late 70s, the idea was that, you know, if the computer came in, that we would just have all this endless leisure.
00:21:36.000We would have a life of complete relaxation.
00:21:40.000The problem would be actually filling our leisure.
00:21:43.000But that has not turned out to be the case.
00:21:45.000Everybody's lives are taken up with the computer, The iPhone, the email, you know, all the time.
00:22:07.000I gave up a few years ago trying to answer them.
00:22:10.000I try to respond to a few tweets a day if possible, but while doing things, especially providing as much content as I do with podcasts and creating comedy and all that, There's no time for that.
00:22:20.000You can't become a full-time letter writer.
00:22:22.000Yeah, that literally would be what you would do.
00:22:25.000You would be dust till dawn doing that, and then sleeping and starting all over again, and you still would never catch up.
00:22:32.000Especially if you gave it a real, honest reply, like if it was a complex discussion that somebody wanted to have with you, you're not going to get there.
00:24:29.000It doesn't actually matter what national boundaries you have or where you grew up or what your religion is.
00:24:34.000You're in communication with people from all over the world.
00:24:39.000Communities of ideas tend to gravitate together and people share thoughts and ideas.
00:24:43.000This, as far as we know, is a new development for the human race to do this on a global scale.
00:24:49.000Yes, some shit comes out of it, but also I think a lot of good stuff is coming out of it.
00:24:53.000And it is challenging the status quo in the world today.
00:24:57.000It is very threatening to the powers that be, that people can communicate directly with one another.
00:25:02.000I remember a time as an author when I depended heavily on the big media to be heard about, to be known at all.
00:25:08.000If I'd written a new book, How could anybody know I'd written it unless one of the big newspapers or a big TV station or somebody covered it?
00:25:36.000Yeah, and if you've never read it, John Marco Allegro was a biblical scholar and a linguist who also happened to be an ordained minister.
00:25:44.000He was one of the guys who was assigned to decipher the Dead Sea Scrolls, did it for 14 years, and wrote this amazing book which basically said that the entire religion of Christianity originally was about consuming psychedelic mushrooms and fertility rituals.
00:26:45.000Put whatever you found on your website, and then within moments, Thousands of people would be downloading it and trading it and it would just, in a frenzy, spread across the world.
00:26:55.000I've been making a point on my travels of putting up a picture and putting up my immediate reaction to something that I've seen.
00:27:04.000And it produces a lot of A lot of reaction.
00:27:08.000And again, it goes two ways, because when people communicate with me, I learn from them.
00:27:13.000It's not just that I'm giving people stuff.
00:27:15.000I'm getting stuff back all the time, and I appreciate that.
00:27:18.000I have these conversations with people that I meet at shows all the time, where they'll say, oh, the podcast changed my life, and thank you so much.
00:27:41.000I mean, every day I'm getting all these new stories that are tweeted to me, and I retweet the fascinating ones as much as I can, but it's a never-ending stream.
00:27:56.000The whole connection is a very rewarding connection for me as well.
00:28:00.000Well, as a matter of fact, you are doing something quite special.
00:28:02.000I mean, I've been on the road, and it's amazing the people that I meet, whether it's in South Africa, whether it's in some Midland city in Britain, whether it's in upstate New York, you know, who listened to Joe Rogan.
00:28:13.000You're reaching a lot of people that way, and this is special.
00:28:56.000Just people that just changed their diet, started exercising, and started getting their blood pumping and feeling better, and started thinking positively, surrounding themselves with positive people.
00:29:06.000And if that could be done on that scale, that can spread virally.
00:29:11.000It totally can, and that's a real measurable change in somebody's life.
00:29:14.000That's setting aside ill health and discomfort and Moving on to something better and more positive.
00:29:20.000And I've talked to maybe 50 or so people that have started their own podcast because of this podcast.
00:29:26.000And I'm hugely encouraging of that because I think there's no difference.
00:29:30.000I mean, if you're a curious person, you speak a language that other people understand, and you find information online, you want to discuss it, start a fucking podcast.
00:30:10.000And I meet a lot of people who are interested in that.
00:30:13.000My son-in-law, for example, is a mixed martial arts fighter and a really hugely important part of his life.
00:30:18.000But at the same time, you're combining it with this extraordinary interest in psychedelics and social change and all of these radical ideas.
00:30:25.000And intuitively, one would not immediately think that somebody who's into mixed martial arts fighting would be also into radical philosophical ideas.
00:30:35.000Of those two things that is really attractive, I think.
00:30:38.000Well, I think that the intuition or intuitively that it wouldn't be is just because people don't understand what martial arts really are.
00:30:45.000What a martial art really is, is the path that you go through in becoming excellent at a martial art is just developing your human potential.
00:30:57.000In seeking the truth about yourself and your own character, like as we were talking about those Kenyan men who endure extreme pain and they become stronger because of that.
00:31:07.000They become something special because of that.
00:31:09.000That seeking truth through martial arts is along the same lines.
00:31:14.000It's doing something incredibly difficult, and in doing that, you grow as a person.
00:31:19.000And then in seeking that truth about your character, seeking that truth about your determination, your willpower, your focus, your discipline, you also start to seek truth in everything else around you, in your government, in your relationships, in your...
00:31:34.000All various aspects of your life, your diet, you see the relationship between your diet and your health, and all these different things, they do fall into each other.
00:31:44.000Psychedelics, absolutely, because in many ways there is no more challenging adventure or experience that one can have.
00:31:51.000I mean, yeah, there's all kinds of wilderness experiences one can have, but a deep journey with a powerful psychedelic is going to challenge you.
00:31:56.000In every possible level as a human being.
00:31:59.000And it requires incredible will and strength to deal with it.
00:32:02.000This is what a lot of people who don't work with psychedelics, who are just brainwashed by the whole war on drugs thing, don't understand.
00:32:08.000This is a deep personal journey which requires strength of character to fulfill.
00:32:14.000I've done some terrifying things in my life, but the moment before you light the lighter that fires up the DMT is one of the most terrifying moments of all time.
00:33:15.000And to survive that and to come back from it...
00:33:17.000You know, you gather your strength from experiences like that.
00:33:20.000And that's why I think our society is foolish to try to just sanitize everything and not allow people to undergo these profound and important experiences.
00:33:31.000Rather, we should be creating structures where it is possible for people to have those experiences and where they don't need to feel afraid of the law about it.
00:33:39.000Where they can challenge themselves in that way with good advice and with wise and loving care surrounding that situation.
00:33:46.000And I think that's one of the things that's beautiful about today's internet and these exchanges like we're having right now is it lets people know what these experiences really are about and what the potential these experiences actually do hold.
00:34:00.000Because we're the victim of massive propaganda that has been going on for decades and decades.
00:34:25.000And it's as though it presses a button in certain people that rational faculties shut down and they cannot react to the subject in an intelligent way anymore.
00:34:42.000It's a self-preservation issue as well for people that are professionals, because if you're a professional in anything where you're being judged or you're being looked at as possibly, oh, we're looking at you for possible promotion, but what are you doing?
00:35:25.000Yeah, I mean, obviously I'm not flying with mushrooms, but my point being that, yeah.
00:35:29.000And if you're honest about it, look, if you're doing something you shouldn't be doing because it's harming someone, and people find out about it, the repercussions are real, and they should be.
00:35:38.000But if you're doing something like psychedelics that harm no one, and then you can have a rational discussion about the benefits that you've had from them, that helps people.
00:35:50.000I find this again and again, and that's the crucial distinction, is...
00:35:55.000Are you doing something which is harmful to others, which impinges upon the sovereignty of others, which makes the life of another person Less rather than more.
00:36:03.000And the answer is, with taking psychedelics, no, you're not.
00:36:25.000We're starting to see, in our lifetime, these centers in Mexico.
00:36:30.000My friend Ed Clay runs one in Mexico, and I know there's some in Canada as well, where they have these Ibogaine centers, where people are going and completely curing themselves from opiates.
00:36:42.000Opiate addictions, for folks who don't know, are a huge problem in this country.
00:36:50.000One that went Horribly wrong, because I know the guy was on a bunch of different pills from a bunch of different doctors, and I just couldn't deal with him anymore.
00:37:07.000He had a back injury and he went to one doctor in one state and then moved to California and started going to another doctor and then having both guys send him prescriptions and taking both two times the amount of pills.
00:37:18.000If you take a prescribed dose of opiate pills, you're very likely to get addictive.
00:37:24.000Even with a prescribed dose, it's a really difficult time to get off of them.
00:37:28.000Especially if you're facing some significant pain.
00:37:52.000In Britain, they often mix it with paracetamol, which is a less strong painkiller.
00:37:57.000And if you take those two pills in combination, you could get addicted to it within a week or ten days.
00:38:04.000And it's the codeine that you're getting addicted to, but it's the paracetamol that's really going to...
00:38:09.000Totally screw up your liver, you know, in the long run.
00:38:13.000And it's stunning, actually, that the big pharmaceutical companies are allowed to do this.
00:38:19.000They're allowed to deliberately addict people, to hook people on very powerful drugs that really have very little benefit.
00:38:27.000I mean, to be honest, if I had some terrible cancer, some terrible pain, some terrible suffering, I would be very interested in exploring opium or even heroin, as a matter of fact.
00:38:39.000I think that nature has been kind to us.
00:38:42.000It's provided us with certain plants that can help us with pain.
00:38:45.000And it may reach a stage in life where you're terminal.
00:40:31.000I'm not sure the exact mechanism of Ibogaine, but the people that have taken it have told me that it's both...
00:40:39.000It physically removes the addiction and, more importantly, psychologically alerts you to all the factors that have contributed to your shitty decision-making in the first place.
00:40:52.000All the errors in your thinking, all the errors in your personality that have led you to this path that you're just trying to numb life with these pills.
00:41:04.000And that's the mystery of these plants, actually, the teacher plants, particularly the two plants that go into the ayahuasca brew and then iboga.
00:41:13.000They're probably the most powerful in this respect, is that there's a sense of an encounter with an intelligence which communicates with you and which gets right to the root of your personal issue and shows it to you and says,
00:41:43.000And that revelation is extremely helpful in handling an addiction.
00:41:47.000And no one's protecting you by making Ibogaine illegal.
00:41:51.000No one's protecting you from anything other than you getting cured from these illnesses and realizing the issues that you have in your life and in your personality.
00:42:01.000It's yet another example of the fact that we live in a society that is completely insane.
00:42:24.000Well, I mean, this is where I have to get into something like Gnosticism, which has been a long-term interest of mine, and the idea that there is a...
00:42:32.000I don't want to use the word divine in terms of God, because I don't go with God particularly, I do go with mystery, but that there's a divine spark in human beings and that there has been a project for thousands of years to deny us the opportunity to realize that part of ourselves,
00:42:51.000the spiritual essence of ourselves, and to keep us chained in matter and locked in the material realm.
00:42:57.000And what we see in modern society is two things going on side by side.
00:43:02.000One is so-called materialist science, which tells us that there is nothing else to reality except the stuff that you can weigh and measure and count.
00:43:11.000And any thought that there might be spirit, that consciousness, for example, might not be generated by the brain, might not be local to the brain.
00:43:19.000Any such thought is supposed to be, according to materialist science, complete nonsense.
00:43:23.000And then there's the actual materialism Which tries to persuade us through all manner of media and the way our society is run that our sole purpose as creatures is to produce and consume and that we have no other function here on this planet and that we are to define ourselves and measure ourselves in terms of our Is that really what we're being taught or is that just something that people find easy?
00:43:49.000That producing and consuming is just easy.
00:44:02.000I think there's something to that that is just a natural aspect of being a human being and constantly having this desire for improvement and progress.
00:44:12.000And we measure that improvement and progress erroneously with objects.
00:44:17.000I mean, there was a culture of Native American Indians, I forget the name of the tribe, who had this ceremony called the Potlatch, which happened like once a year, and what they had to do was the more things you could burn, that showed that you were a really big guy,
00:46:11.000But one of the things that Deepak said that was really fascinating, because they were talking about consciousness, and consciousness being in atoms, and consciousness being in And Dawkins was insisting that these things did not have consciousness, which to me is, oh, I go,
00:46:28.000It seems to me, yeah, it seems to me that whether you, clearly, he's a brilliant man with a massive amount of scientific data at his disposal for things that he can prove, for sure.
00:46:39.000But to say that you know that atoms don't have consciousness is kind of silly, because we don't.
00:46:47.000The other thing that Deepak said that I thought was really fascinating was that he believes that what you're seeing in human beings, with human beings being recycled stardust, we literally are made of stardust.
00:47:00.000A star had to explode to create the very molecules that are inside of our body.
00:47:05.000And what you're seeing in a human being is the universe actually becoming aware of itself in a way that it can communicate.
00:47:24.000Confusing the fuck out of everybody with word salad of quantum and this and that.
00:47:29.000He just throws quantum out there like you throw salt on french fries.
00:47:32.000I don't even know if it's the right way to use it, but he just throws it out there and confuses the shit out of you sometimes.
00:47:38.000Very poor method of communication he incorporates because It's not clear what he's saying.
00:47:46.000Even though I know what quantum means, I know what he's talking about, when he's talking about consciousness being non-local, I understand all those things, but he says it in such a word-salad way that it's like, I don't know what you're getting at, man.
00:48:00.000Seems to me like you're trying to confuse the shit out of people with a real elaborate sentence.
00:48:47.000I would like Dawkins to smoke DMT. Yes.
00:48:51.000That's the one psychedelic with which there is just no negotiation.
00:48:56.000You just don't get a discussion with DMT. It just does for you.
00:49:01.000And other ones, even the DMT in Ayahuasca, Dawkins could resist that.
00:49:06.000But the smoked DMT, once you hit the right dose, once you pass that fourth big draw on the pipe, then there's no negotiation.
00:49:14.000It is going to take you there, and it's going to deal with you.
00:49:17.000And I would like to see Dawkins argue with DMT. You can't.
00:49:21.000He would probably argue with what the effects actually are and that it's some sort of an assault on the visual cortex by various chemicals that distort perception and reality.
00:49:41.000He's lacking in that data and that experience.
00:49:44.000It's data that he needs to have as a scientist.
00:49:46.000He's one of the people I would really like to see having that data.
00:49:50.000I agree with you that he would probably find a way to rationalize it and set it aside.
00:49:55.000But still, it would be incredibly useful for him to have that experience because he's been so influential in persuading so many people that there is nothing beyond this material realm.
00:50:06.000And DMT is a place beyond this material realm.
00:50:09.000I am prepared to admit it could be something that we're projecting out of our own minds.
00:50:13.000There may not be any reality, but it feels like a real place.
00:50:16.000I appreciate you admitting that, and I say that often as well.
00:50:20.000I think that it feels like a different dimension that's inhabited with intelligent something, whatever it is.
00:50:35.000I have never had a bad DMT trip in a sense where it turned evil.
00:50:40.000But I've heard people discuss really horrific evil entities that they've run into.
00:50:47.000And I often wonder, by virtue of that, whether or not what they're talking about is something that's in their psyche, something that's in their subconscious.
00:50:55.000Something they're bringing to the party.
00:50:57.000My last DMT trip, which I mentioned a little while ago, which was extremely powerful and scary, This happened just in the two weeks before I gave up my 24-year cannabis habit.
00:51:14.000I think I had some shit to go through.
00:51:18.000I then followed that with five ayahuasca sessions.
00:52:07.000There's like a trumpet call and the voice comes again and now the great transformation shall begin.
00:52:12.000And it was the weirdest and strangest experience and I was in this flickering huge space and these little beings were running around me and I was completely helpless and at their mercy.
00:53:16.000But that I love you thing was really weird.
00:53:19.000The other thing that it said was the words of McKenna.
00:53:22.000And I think when I've tried to analyze this, I think that what it was was that I had listened to so much McKenna before I'd gone into it that I had sort of stained my brain with this idea.
00:53:34.000And either my subconsciousness was saying this, or they were...
00:53:39.000Whatever they are, whether they're a part of my thought process, we're projecting this thing, this reminder, do not give in to astonishment.
00:53:52.000I was flying down this bumblebee-covered...
00:54:00.000This pathway, this spinning, when I say bumblebee, not covered, rather by colored, there was very clear black and yellow stripes of all this thing, like very bright, intense black, and very bright, intense yellow,
00:54:15.000and it was moving, and I was shooting down this thing, and then it was saying, do not give in to astonishment.
00:54:23.000And it was, the words of McKenna, but not in...
00:56:40.000It was like this flittering thing that I'd go, no, stop it, stop it.
00:56:45.000But I'd be on the highway and I'd be like, what if this guy just flips the fucking road and comes right towards you and smashes his head onto your car?
00:57:04.000I think what it was was my ego trying to regain some sort of control.
00:57:08.000Is that my ego, by protecting me or by keeping me paranoid and keeping me very base and primal and animalistic, worried about safety and shelter and disasters and things like that, it was trying to regain some strength.
00:57:24.000Because I was so humbled by the experience.
01:00:08.000In the absence of sensory input, even while we're having this conversation, it's very quiet in here, but we're having to deal with the fact that there's computers, there's screens, there's a ceiling, your butt is feeling the chair.
01:00:23.000All those things are gone in that tank.
01:05:38.000They're calling it Skull 5. It says here, Skull 5 is different, different even than the four other skulls found in, uh, Dumanese is the name, the area.
01:05:47.000It was found in 2005 and completely, and ultimately matched a jaw found in 2000 to make a complete skull.
01:05:54.000After eight years of study, scientists on Thursday published a paper in the Journal of Science revealing that Skull 5 is simply not that different from others.
01:06:02.000The five Demanisi individuals are no more different from each other than any five modern humans or chimpanzees, said neurobiologists, blah, blah, blah.
01:06:14.000So the brain case itself is very small, around the third of the size of modern humans.
01:06:19.000And at the same time, the face is quite large.
01:06:23.000Yeah, I mean, I'm not sure I need to read it.
01:06:26.000I'm not sure how much that changes history.
01:06:29.000I mean, we know that there were human species around one point.
01:06:34.000Our ancestors were making tools two and a half million years ago.
01:06:39.000So this is well within that time frame.
01:06:43.000I think maybe what it's showing us is that there have been many lines of human down through the ages.
01:06:51.000And like this one that they call the Hobbit, you know, Florian, this tiny little creature which lived until 18 or 16,000 years ago in Floris in Indonesia.
01:07:02.000That was completely unpredicted as well.
01:07:04.000Maybe there have been many human types and we don't know where we actually come from in this whole picture.
01:07:12.000Yeah, these lost hominids that they keep discovering, like Homo floriensis, and like that Russian one that they found that was basically 40,000 years old, a completely different species of human.
01:08:56.000Which is called Gunung Padang, not that far from Flores, as a matter of fact.
01:09:00.000It's a megalithic site with gigantic basalt columns.
01:09:05.000And this place has been known since the early 20th century, thought to be about 3,000 or 4,000 years old.
01:09:12.000But there's an Australian geologist called Danny Hillman, Who's been working for the Indonesian government on a site survey for the last five years, and he's just in the last month or two come out with this explosive finding that he thinks this site is possibly as much as 20,000 years old, which a megalithic site,
01:09:29.00020,000 years old, that completely rewrites history.
01:09:32.000Gobekli Tepe already pretty much rewrites history, but this place in Indonesia totally does it.
01:09:37.000And when you take the two together, so I'm going to go out and take a look at that site and meet Danny Hillman.
01:09:58.000Okay, so the previous dating has just been based on the surface layers, and Danny Hillman and his team have been down deep into this man-made hill on top of which the surface layers stand, and they've gone all the way down and they're finding big megaliths right down at the bottom.
01:10:12.000And they're finding associated carbon that allows them to date it to up to 20,000 years old.
01:10:18.000So this is a real huge game changer that's taking place there.
01:10:22.000So when they date it, when they carbon date it down to 20,000 years old, is it based on organic material that's near the rock?
01:10:27.000You can't date stone, but what you do is you get into undisturbed layers.
01:10:32.000Deep down in that man-made hill that we're looking at on the screen right now, you get down into undisturbed layers where you're finding megaliths at the bottom, covered by Earth, being covered by Earth for 20,000 years, and amongst that Earth is organic material, fragments of bone, fragments of charcoal that you can date with carbon dating.
01:10:48.000So you can then say that those megaliths are at least that old.
01:10:55.000They may be much older than that, but they're at least that old.
01:10:57.000And the weird thing that this place has in common with Gobekli Tepe Is that both of them are man-made hills which appear to have had some kind of deliberate burial of the earlier lairs, like a time capsule.
01:11:09.000So I get this feeling that, you know, stuff is coming out.
01:11:13.000Stuff is coming out into the open that's been...
01:11:21.000Well, Gobekli Tepe was a real game changer because that was the first time that they had found anything that you had to date back to at least 12,000 years.
01:11:32.000Gobekli Tepe is really important and that's why I was glad to be able to go there.
01:11:38.000In September and spend a lot of time just gently getting to know this site.
01:11:43.000The reason it's important is because it was deliberately buried.
01:12:39.000Because Gobekli Tepe is something completely unpredicted that what are supposed to be hunter-gatherers at the end of the Upper Paleolithic who are not supposed to have the kind of organizational skills, the architectural skills to put together gigantic megalithic circles.
01:12:56.000There's one of the pillars that I went and took a look at, which they never removed it from the quarry because they found a fault in it.
01:13:05.000It wasn't that they couldn't remove it, they found a fault in it.
01:13:07.000And that one weighs more than 50 tons.
01:13:13.000And the other intriguing thing about Gobekli Tepe, which I learned from Klaus Schmidt when I was talking to him, is they've done ground-penetrating radars.
01:13:21.000So right now when you go to the site, you see four We're good to go.
01:13:45.000Over the site and they found that at least 20 times as many stone circles are still underground and possibly as many as 50 times as many.
01:13:53.000So it's just a gigantic site and why it's important is that whoever made it 12,000 years ago deliberately buried it 2,000 years later, 10,000 years ago.
01:14:03.000So that meant that the carbon dating record has not been contaminated by later cultures.
01:14:09.000It's a perfect pristine time capsule and lo and behold The date that it prints out is 12,000 years old.
01:14:18.000Now, that then raises questions over lots of other megalithic sites all over the world, which have been contaminated by later cultures.
01:14:25.000The megalithic sites of Malta, for example, look very like Gobekli Tepe.
01:14:31.000They look very like Gobekli Tepe, but they're only supposed to be 5,000 years old.
01:14:35.000I would now say we need to reconsider that evidence because those sites Were contaminated by later culture.
01:14:41.000Maybe the carbon on which they were dated was introduced by a later culture.
01:14:44.000Maybe it doesn't belong to the period of the construction of the megaliths.
01:14:49.000Well, this alone, this one discovery alone, really is a huge game changer.
01:14:55.000Because now we know that people were capable of doing something like that 12,000 years ago.
01:14:59.000And not a task to be underestimated because you're in an area where there isn't a lot of water available.
01:15:05.000So you're bringing in hundreds of people.
01:15:08.000You're organizing them into teams to construct these gigantic megalithic circles.
01:16:41.000And it was really a lucky turn of the spade by Klaus Schmidt, this German archaeologist, that revealed that that's not the case at all and that these are 12,000-year-old megalithic pillars.
01:16:51.000And not only that, so we have this incredible innovation in architecture taking place.
01:16:57.000Stone circles on the scale of Stonehenge, but 7,000 years earlier than Stonehenge.
01:17:03.000Being created at Gobekli Tepe, but at the same time, mysteriously, agriculture starts to appear in that area.
01:17:08.000There hasn't been agriculture there before, or anywhere so far as we know, and suddenly it starts to appear.
01:17:13.000They're domesticating cattle, they're domesticating wheat, and it's the beginning of the agricultural revolution, so it's like a center of innovation.
01:17:23.000We're doing something unique as far as we know in human history in terms of architecture.
01:17:28.000We're doing something unique in terms of economics, producing the first agriculture.
01:17:33.000And I can't help feeling that This thing happened so suddenly and in such an extraordinary way that maybe this is the missing link, that we're looking at the fingerprints of a lost civilization, the survivors of a lost civilization who settled there with all these skills already in place and introduced them into the local culture because this period 12,000 years ago plus is the period when the Earth went through gigantic cataclysmic events because
01:18:52.000And you have this episode that geologists call the Younger Dryas, which is an episode of sudden deep freeze strikes the Earth.
01:19:02.000The Earth has been emerging from the Ice Age until 12,980 years ago.
01:19:06.000And amazingly, you can date it that precisely.
01:19:08.000Give or take five years, this happened 12,980 years ago.
01:19:12.000And then suddenly the Earth flips into this thousand-year deep freeze that nobody's ever been able to explain before, that they called the Younger Dryas.
01:19:21.000And now we can say for sure that the Younger Dryas was caused by huge amounts of dust being projected into the upper atmosphere of the Earth by this comet impact, and that that dust enshrouded the whole Earth and set in motion a kind of what we would call a nuclear winter today.
01:19:37.000Where the sun's rays could no longer reach the earth, and the earth went back into a deep freeze.
01:19:42.000And for me, this is the smoking gun that lost us a whole civilization.
01:19:46.000And I was just, yesterday, I've come here from North Carolina, and I sat down with Randall Carlson, who has been...
01:19:57.000And he's been working away quietly on this subject for years and years and years, long before the evidence Was in for a comet.
01:20:03.000He was predicting that this is what caused it, that there was a comet impact.
01:20:06.000And he's got this very, very fascinating theory.
01:20:09.000And he's going to take me next year on a field trip into the Pacific Northwest and into Canada to look at areas where there were these massive outflows of floods from the ice cap.
01:20:21.000And what Randall is suggesting is that at least some large fragments of the comet that hit the Earth 12,980 years ago actually hit the ice cap.
01:20:31.000They landed on the ice cap, which was still then a mile deep, and they pulverized it.
01:20:35.000They turned it into water immediately, and that's why you have these gigantic outburst floods which carry down huge boulders and strew them all over the landscapes.
01:20:43.000A very exciting theory, and it's great to see Randall's work being vindicated because he's been ignored for far too long, and I'm looking forward to doing a fascinating field trip with him next year.
01:20:53.000Yeah, I met him in Georgia many years ago at the Punchline Comedy Club.
01:20:57.000I had a long and really interesting conversation about him.
01:21:00.000With him, rather, about the Holocene Comet.
01:21:12.000Now, everybody understands that the Earth was hit by a comet and there's been a big scientific argument about this over the last Five or six years, but it's really settled now.
01:21:20.000The evidence that all over the world is clear that this happened.
01:21:24.000But Randall was on to this years before anybody else.
01:21:27.000And what he's also doing is just taking it that bit further.
01:21:31.000Because we have these mysterious floods that occurred in precisely that period, which have traditionally been called outburst floods.
01:21:39.000The idea was that the ice caps gradually melting down filled up these huge glacial lakes.
01:21:47.000And that eventually the ice dam enclosing the Glacial Lake would break.
01:21:52.000But now it looks like we're looking at ice dams a thousand feet high in order to account for the massive flow of water.
01:21:59.000And what Randall's suggesting is that that theory is actually wrong.
01:22:02.000It wasn't the outburst floods from Glacial Lakes.
01:22:05.000It was the comet hitting the ice cap that turned all that ice to water and produced a gigantic, gigantic outflows, carrying down boulders, you know, the size of houses and dumping them over the landscapes.
01:22:17.000And then you have to consider anything that lay in the way of those floods, anything that lay in the path of floods on that scale is gone.
01:22:27.000And you also have to consider the fact that we absolutely know that these events have taken place in a much greater scale over the course of the Earth.
01:22:35.000There's been mass extinction events, so this is not preposterous.
01:22:40.000It's completely logical, and it's time that historians and archaeologists...
01:22:46.000We've abandoned the model that everything just proceeds smoothly and gently in the way that we've seen it doing for the last few hundred years, which is called uniformitarianism, and embraced the thought that cataclysmic events are a key part of the history of the Earth.
01:24:01.000This is what I often say, that if I were to look at our civilization in mythical terms, There's never been a civilization that looked more like the next lost civilization than ours.
01:24:13.000I don't want to spread gloom and doom.
01:24:15.000I don't believe in spreading gloom and doom.
01:24:18.000And I've said earlier, and I maintain this, I'm very optimistic about the future of the human race.
01:24:22.000But let's not pretend that it's all roses in the garden.
01:24:25.000The terrible things are happening in the world today.
01:24:28.000We have an unbelievable arrogance, an unbelievable Pride, cruelty, an economic model that makes countless millions incredibly poor and allows tiny, tiny numbers to be incredibly obscenely rich.
01:24:44.000And the whole system is skewed in the interests of that tiny, tiny fraction of 1% of the wealthy.
01:24:51.000And unfortunately, it's really as bad as it's possible to get in America.
01:24:56.000It's bad in many other countries, too, but it's really bad in America, the skewing of wealth and the brainwashing of the population to keep people quiet, to stop people thinking the mind control operates in our society.
01:26:07.000So this idea that I've talked about many times over the years that we are a species with amnesia, we are going to be a species with amnesia.
01:26:53.000I mean, if we lose one or two generations, if we had a Holocene-type incident again or a big comet hit and wiped out 50% of the population and we had to sort of re-figure out databases and re-figure out hard drives, we're not going to.
01:27:08.000We're going to gather food and we're going to figure out agriculture.
01:27:10.000We're going to figure out some real primitive ways to live life.
01:27:13.000But most of that stuff, three, four generations later, is gone.
01:28:27.000And that, by the way, there have been bigger ones.
01:28:30.000There have been bigger storms throughout history than that.
01:28:32.000There's been bigger impacts than the Holocene one.
01:28:35.000And the other thing about the universe is that our orbit, like where we are, is stable.
01:28:41.000And we have the moon, which helps our orbit be stable.
01:28:44.000But there's hundreds of thousands of near-Earth objects that are just floating around out there that could easily come down, collide into each other, Slamming the Earth, and that's a wrap.
01:29:24.000What becomes clear is we only know a little bit of these things, some of them 10 miles wide, which are winging through outer space and can hit us at any time.
01:30:50.000But if the kind of focused scientific effort that is presently put into creating weapons of mass destruction so that we can all fight each other, if that kind of effort were put into making sure That we understand the orbit of every single asteroid that's out there.
01:31:47.000Yeah, I mean, maybe that's what happened with the dinosaurs.
01:31:49.000And that's why the ancient mythology...
01:31:53.000Which consistently says, right or wrong, consistently says that mankind is implicated in these cataclysms.
01:32:01.000Our behavior, our wickedness is implicated in this in some way.
01:32:07.000I think it's worth listening to that a little bit.
01:32:09.000And maybe this time we don't have to go through the reset.
01:32:15.000Maybe it's possible for mankind to actually wake up now that we are globally connected, now that we do have this possibility of all talking to one another, that before it's too late, we can reset ourselves in a positive direction.
01:32:28.000I feel like the only way we would is if we knew something was coming.
01:33:52.000Sooner or later, anybody who works with ayahuasca enough is going to start picking up that message.
01:33:57.000That this beautiful earth that we have, this gift that the universe has given us is precious beyond measure, precious beyond imagination, and that we are part of it and that we must treat it with love and respect and reverence rather than in the horrific way that we do.
01:34:15.000And that part of treating the planet with love and respect and reverence is treating fellow human beings with love and respect and reverence at every level.
01:34:22.000This is a very strong It's a message of ayahuasca.
01:34:25.000It is fundamentally a message of love.
01:34:27.000Not in a wishy-washy way, but in a really firm and clear way.
01:34:31.000That is the salvation of the human race.
01:34:33.000Bill Hicks said it, you know, love is the opposite of fear.
01:34:36.000Fear is what presses our buttons today.
01:34:39.000It's what's used deliberately to press our buttons.
01:34:42.000And what's the opposite of that is love.
01:35:23.000But I'm sure if you do a Google search on that, you can find several different sites that have covered that.
01:35:30.000But it's like this machine that would essentially sit in the center of the ocean and start sucking all the plastic up.
01:35:38.000We have a huge, huge, huge problem with this.
01:35:41.000This plastic in the ocean is something that no one even considered until roughly a decade or so ago when they started being aware that all the stuff that we're littering on, you know, whether it's throwing it off of boats or just finds its way to the ocean through drainage pipes or what have you, we're dealing with a massive,
01:35:57.000massive amount of material and material that's not biodegradable, that's being Turned into, like, this sludgy sort of shitty stuff that's floating around.
01:36:07.000It's a kind of symbol of everything that's wrong with our culture, actually.
01:36:16.000I mean, it's pretty amazing that this 19-year-old kid...
01:36:20.000The point being that what I find fascinating is that when our back is up against the wall, like when someone realizes, oh my god, we have this country-sized patch of plastic that's floating around in the ocean, when your back is up against the wall,
01:36:47.000That actually could be used to create things.
01:36:49.000That actually could be used in a beneficial way.
01:36:52.000But then the problem is going to be, how do you keep people from continuing the same process and re-polluting it again once you've cleaned it up?
01:37:20.000So, like, how do you figure out a way to stop the trend of these gigantic cities or provide food or figure out a way to be in a sustainable environment and still have modern conveniences and technology and medicine and all those,
01:37:41.000But like all of these gigantic problems, if we begin to solve them at our personal level within our own sphere of influence, within where we live in our relationships with other human beings, that's a good start.
01:38:13.000Spread this newfound realization of what we're really doing, what our impact really is, the awareness and this sort of newfound idea of connectivity that we have.
01:38:26.000And that we're starting to grasp a hold of because of this internet culture, because of this new area, this new area in history, this new level of information.
01:38:41.000Because I meet young people every time I go out and give a lecture, give a talk.
01:38:47.000I meet young people who've come there and they are thinking in a new way.
01:38:51.000The old ideas of nationalism and patriotism and all that bullshit have gone.
01:38:56.000These are people who are thinking in terms of humanity as a whole and are thinking in terms of what a glorious gift the universe has given us with this planet and we have to live right.
01:39:06.000There is a tremendous spirit in the world today.
01:39:09.000Well, one of the benefits of travel is that travel sort of erodes the idea of nationalism in a way where you meet these people in these other countries and you realize, well, they're just like me.
01:39:32.000And this is fear that can be manipulated.
01:39:34.000That the powers that run the world at the moment are deliberately manipulating all the time to divide us from one another and prevent us from realizing.
01:39:42.000And amongst those powers are of course all of the big states and government apparatus and are of course all of the big religions.
01:39:49.000Christianity, Judaism and Islam are all in the fear business as well.
01:39:52.000They're all in generating fear and telling us that this is the only way to do things and we are different and this is the right way to do things and that is the wrong way to do things and that's the old model.
01:40:02.000The big corporations, they're part of that too, you know, you have to rely on us, we will be the answer to all your problems, such bullshit.
01:40:09.000That's the old model, and that's the model that is bit by bit, day by day, one step at a time, one brick at a time, getting replaced.
01:40:57.000That is a model that will no longer work.
01:41:00.000And whether or not it wants to or not, it will slowly be phased out.
01:41:04.000I think that when you're talking about...
01:41:06.000It's interesting that I think that the very practices that it's using right now, that our government is using, are going to aid its own demise.
01:41:21.000Socially, where people are just completely up in arms and upset about it.
01:41:24.000But also that technological trend is going to lead to ultimate truth.
01:41:29.000And that's a real issue with the government because the government relies on deception and bullshit and bribery and special interest groups.
01:41:37.000You can't keep that up if you have ultimate truth.
01:41:39.000If you have ultimate access to information and the boundaries between people and that information are all gone, how are you going to run a country?
01:41:46.000So the seeds of their own destruction are already planted in the mechanisms they're putting in place.
01:41:55.000Have you ever seen, there's a method of hunting wolves that the Eskimos use where they would take a very sharp knife and put it in the ground and put blood on the knife and a wolf would come along and start to lick the knife because of the blood on the knife.
01:42:08.000Taste his own blood and continue to lick and bite the blade and bleed to death.
01:42:44.000Well, he was fired because it was exposed that he was having an affair, and that affair was exposed through email exchanges where the FBI examined the CIA. So the FBI is ratting on the CIA and getting rid of the number one CIA guy through email,
01:43:04.000through a transparency in email exchanges.
01:43:09.000Because this is the main government entity that's involved in spying, you know, other than the NSA. And it's just, it all, like, you guys are going to get exposed too.
01:43:22.000And the real problem isn't in affairs.
01:43:26.000I mean, affairs obviously are an issue, but the real problem is going to be in the structure of power itself.
01:43:32.000And when the influence is so clearly exposed, the influence, whether it's of special interest groups, of corporations, of lobbyists, whatever it is, when it's so clearly exposed that it cannot be tolerated by rational people.
01:45:23.000I would hope also that the trend is moving.
01:45:26.000I mean, if you go back to these people that we're talking about that existed, these...
01:45:30.000Pre-humans that existed 1.8 million years ago and the way they conducted each other, conducted their lives, and then look at how we conduct our lives in 2013. It's been a massive, incredible amount of progress in understanding each other, that this trend will continue.
01:45:44.000And if we don't get hit by some kind of giant meteor, that we will ultimately reach a level of understanding that will sort of Make this happen, whether or not psychedelics are involved or not.
01:46:02.000It's interesting that psychedelics are a catalyst in it.
01:46:05.000They come up again and again in the conversation.
01:46:08.000And what it boils down to is the recognition, and I've been banging on about this for a long time, the recognition of the adult sovereign individual that we have a right to explore our own consciousness.
01:46:19.000That is a grotesque invasion of our privacy and our sovereignty over our own bodies that a government would even have the temerity to suggest that it's got a right to punish us for doing that.
01:46:32.000It's not the issue of the psychedelics themselves, it's the issue of the Right to make sovereign decisions about our own bodies and our own consciousness.
01:46:39.000And this I see a big awakening all over the world taking place.
01:46:44.000And it's one of those things we're going to look back on through history and the way we look at the Inquisition, the way we look at burning witches.
01:46:51.000We're going to look at the prosecution of people for using psychedelics and it's just as ridiculous.
01:46:56.000We're going to look back on it with horror.
01:47:06.000And that details the concept of human beings learning from psychedelic experiences and actually it giving birth to a new level of creativity and a new level of culture.
01:47:19.000Yeah, I believe that there's no doubt that psychedelics have played a huge unrecognized role in the human story.
01:47:26.000And I want to pay tribute to Terence McKenna for being one of the early people to recognize that.
01:47:30.000Again, in so many ways, Terence McKenna, just an incredible genius.
01:47:35.000That stoned-ape theory that he came up with is absolutely key to this.
01:47:40.000And again, he was far ahead of his time.
01:47:41.000Academics followed behind him in this.
01:47:44.000We need to recognize that these demonized plants have played a huge role in the human story.
01:47:51.000Just in my recent travels in South America, I was in a place called Caral, 200 kilometers north of Lima.
01:48:00.000Now, back in the 90s, people were saying that there could be no relationship between old world pyramids and new world pyramids because all the pyramids in the new world were much younger.
01:48:10.000That story is now gone as a result of Caral and another site, Banduria in Peru, which are definitively 2500 to 3000 BC, the same date that is put on the Great Pyramids of Giza.
01:48:22.000And what's fascinating at Caral is a couple of things.
01:48:25.000Firstly, there was a big city complex there 5000 years ago and absolutely no evidence of warfare whatsoever.
01:48:32.000Traditionally, it was believed that the evolution of cities was connected with warfare in some way, that people came into cities to protect themselves from war.
01:48:48.000So, you know, this unexamined part of the human story needs to be brought back into prominence, and we need to realize we owe a lot to the visionary plants, and we're making a mistake to create a society that seeks to cut us off From that source of learning and that source of teaching.
01:49:04.000It's not an accident in the Amazon that they call these plants teachers.
01:49:09.000And I think it's also very fascinating that the academic world has, in many ways, especially the older academic world that grew up without the internet, has turned their back on the concept of psychedelics being beneficial to the point where it's laughed at and poo-pooed to the point where McKenna's psychedelic stoned ape theory is,
01:49:29.000if you don't know the theory, his theory involves the evolution of humans, the doubling of the human brain size directly related to the consumption Of psychedelic mushrooms.
01:49:38.000It's an incredibly controversial theory, but when I had Dennis McKenna on the podcast, Dennis explained it in a very scientific way that would show how the consumption of psychedelic mushrooms would correlate with the creating of language, with the expansion of consciousness.
01:49:54.000It's an incredibly intricate and detailed idea that's completely ignored by so many mainstream people, but if they have had any psychedelic experience themselves, they would know what an incredible Incredibly different experience that is than the normal state of consciousness.
01:50:13.000If you were looking for a culprit, a thing that would change conscious beings or intelligent beings like lower hominids, something that would just rock them out of their current state, what better thing than psychedelic drugs?
01:50:28.000What other culprit that you could connect to a doubling of the human brain size?
01:50:32.000I've seen it attributed to a bunch of different things like consumption of fish, the throwing arm, all these different things.
01:50:44.000I guess the omega-3s would help a little, but man, humans are a different thing, man.
01:50:51.000Yeah, humans are a very different thing.
01:50:53.000And yeah, I mean, I have no doubt in my mind it was psychedelics that played that role.
01:50:58.000And that was one thing that I looked at in Supernatural was this whole issue of the cave art.
01:51:03.000Because that's where, you know, that's where in the long evolutionary story of the human species, you suddenly find us confronting ourselves.
01:51:10.000We're looking at this amazing symbolic art, this incredible, incredible works, and these very mysterious, eerie spaces that you go into, like the Cave of Lascaux.
01:51:22.000And from the nature of the art itself, it's clear it was visionary art.
01:51:26.000These were people who were working with psychedelics and painting their visions, just as shamans do in the Amazon today.
01:51:31.000Did you see Werner Herzog's documentary?
01:52:08.000Yeah, that's where it gets incredibly squirrely.
01:52:10.000And when you talk to guys like John Anthony West, they start talking about the hieroglyphs that depict a civilization, and not just that, but name the pharaohs of 30-plus thousand years ago.
01:52:24.000This is something that really annoys me about Egyptology.
01:52:26.000John Anthony West is just such a brilliant man.
01:52:29.000He's an old An old friend of mine going way back to the 90s, super, super guy, and he's done so much to bring to light the mysteries and the magic of ancient Egypt.
01:52:38.000And he's absolutely right, because you go to the Temple of Seti I in Abydos, and you will see a mural carved in high relief on a wall in a corridor, which shows The pharaoh Seti I, showing his young son, Ramesses II, a list of all the pharaohs who've ruled before their time.
01:53:10.000It's accepted back to 3000 BC, the first dynasty when civilization is supposed to have begun.
01:53:15.000They then completely ignore the fact that the king list continues long before that.
01:53:20.000For tens of thousands of years, as much as 36,000 years before that, lists of pharaohs and the time when the gods walked the earth.
01:53:26.000All of this is in the king lists as well.
01:53:29.000So the Egyptologists grab the bit that fits their prejudice and ignore the rest and say, well, the ancient Egyptians were just Yeah, and then there's, of course, the water erosion on the Sphinx that John Anthony West and Robert Shock exposed, which is really,
01:53:44.000in my opinion, one of the most undeniable things that I've heard people deny.
01:53:49.000Yeah, it's one of the most important pieces of history.
01:53:54.000Evidence for a lost civilization, and this is John Anthony West and Professor Robert Shock at Boston University, the evidence that the Great Sphinx was reigned upon for thousands and thousands of years.
01:54:06.000Now, what's interesting, and again, Gobekli Tepe comes into this story, is that Egyptologists at the time said, look, there's no way that the Sphinx could be 12,000 years old.
01:54:17.000The geological evidence must be wrong Because if there was a culture that was capable of creating a monument on the scale of the Sphinx 12,000 years ago, well, why we would find other monuments that are 12,000 years old, other big monuments, and they regarded that as the killer argument Against the geological weathering of the Sphinx,
01:54:34.000you know, that shock and West must just be wrong.
01:54:37.000Well, now we have Gobekli Tepe and it is 12,000 years old and it is on the scale of the Sphinx and it's not even that far from the Sphinx, you know, and suddenly that old argument about the Sphinx, which was dismissed by academia back in the 90s, they're going to have to reconsider it very,
01:54:53.000That Charlton Heston hosted documentary on the Sphinx, I believe it was on NBC. It was on NBC. I watched it, I found it incredibly fascinating, but infuriating when you hear that Egyptologist just laughing at Robert Shock saying, where's the evidence of this culture?
01:57:11.000Maybe metal wasn't the only way to cut stone.
01:57:13.000This is where I maybe Get a little bit mystical, but maybe, you know, because our society has done things a certain way, that we use mechanical advantage, that we use machine tools, that we want to look for that in the past, but maybe there are all sorts of untapped faculties of the human mind that the ancients were working with in one way or another.
01:57:31.000Certainly when you go to a place like Sacsayhuaman in Peru, outside of Cuzco, and you see these gigantic blocks of stone, 100, 150 tons each, fitted together like jigsaw puzzle, the edges kind of melting into one another, The notion that some sort of heat might have been used to shape these stones begins to make a weird kind of sense.
01:58:27.000The Incas have been wrongly handed The majority of the architecture in the Andes by archaeology, the Incas only did a fraction of it and most of what they did was pretty poor quality.
01:58:37.000The great stuff was done by earlier civilizations and he took me and he showed me vitrified stone which has been subjected to fantastic heat and melted and shines in a way that's really stunning and striking and convincing when you see it.
01:58:51.000That some kind of technology that is not the technology that we use today was being employed to put these stones into place.
01:58:58.000And archaeologists have dismissed such ideas for a very long time, but I'm not sure how much longer they're going to be able to dismiss them.
01:59:03.000I don't know how they can dismiss those enormous stones that have strange shapes that are fitting perfectly into each other.
02:00:25.000I mean, the way they did it, they didn't make everything square and level.
02:00:30.000They just decided to use this sort of method of turning these stones into these puzzle pieces.
02:00:37.000When you go look at it up close and you realize that you can't get a sheet of paper in the gaps between the joints, you realize that you are looking at some sort of technology that we don't get.
02:00:47.000There was some way that these people were able to do this and make it incredibly difficult for themselves if it was done in any modern way.
02:00:55.000What's the mainstream explanation for that?
02:00:58.000Oh, hours and hours of patient labor by tens of thousands of people grinding away at the stones and making them all fit.
02:01:05.000Consider the planning, you know, to make that happen.
02:03:37.000The Incas were wiped out by the Spanish 1530, 1540. They were destroyed as an empire.
02:03:45.000They'd only existed according to history for 150 years before that, 200 years before that at the outside.
02:03:51.000And all of this work, this incredible megalithic work that's all over the Andes Mountains, you just can't move for bumping into it, all of it is supposed to have been built in that 200-year period by the Incas because archaeology just can't bear the idea that there might have been some earlier culture.
02:04:06.000It seems like if it's so confusing, there's so many open-ended questions where when you see these enormous pieces, when you see them fitted together, when you don't have an explanation of how they did it, you're not exactly sure who did it because the history gets really murky when you get that far back.
02:04:52.000It's the earth that's going around the sun.
02:04:53.000You have to change the reference frame.
02:04:55.000In order to see what's really going on.
02:04:58.000And I think that's the problem with history and archaeology.
02:05:00.000What impact, if any, has this Gobekli Tepe discovery changed archaeologists' view of backdating things?
02:05:10.000As I mentioned, I liked Klaus Schmidt when I met him, the archaeologist who's working on Gobekli Tepe.
02:05:16.000I thought he was charming and enthusiastic, and I enjoyed his energy.
02:05:20.000When I asked him about, when I said, so what does it feel like to be the man who discovered the site that's rewriting history?
02:05:28.000And he said, no, it's not rewriting history.
02:05:31.000It's adding a new chapter to existing history.
02:05:34.000He still wants to fit it into that reference frame somehow that we have to, okay, we have to completely rethink our ideas about the upper Paleolithic, but somehow desperately...
02:05:42.000We must look at this site in a way that's not going to rock the boat too much.
02:05:46.000I think especially when he himself admits that at least 20 times as much, if not 50 times as much, is still under the ground awaiting to be excavated.
02:05:55.000I think a little bit of provisional thinking is needed before we decide.
02:05:59.000Do you just attribute that to him being a professional academic?
02:06:02.000I think that professional academia, particularly in the realm of archaeology, It encourages those who are working in the field to think in terms of the existing paradigm, not to think in terms of challenging the paradigm, because it's dangerous.
02:06:17.000If you challenge the paradigm, you're going to be ridiculed by your colleagues and regarded as completely lunatic and attacked and insulted.
02:06:26.000So it's better not to challenge the paradigm.
02:06:28.000But what a fascinating area of research to not challenge the paradigm, an area where you have so little information about what could have possibly happened.
02:06:37.000When you get back to 5,000 years ago, 6,000 years ago, 7,000 years ago, and you're trying to piece these puzzles together, to pretend that you have the entire timeline It seems a little silly.
02:07:10.000With history, where you have written documents that you can draw upon, where you have those written documents, you can be reasonably certain about what's going on.
02:07:18.000The further back we go, we don't have the written documents.
02:07:21.000Beyond 5,000 years, we have no written documents.
02:07:24.000And to draw fixed and firm conclusions about what happened before 5,000 years ago on the basis of a few things dug out of the ground, it's not good enough.
02:07:44.000And the backdating of the Sphinx, has there been any progress on that now because of Gobekli Tepe?
02:07:51.000Because what Robert Schoch did in exposing the erosion, the water erosion, and we briefly touched on this before, but I've seen people dispute it, and boy, it seems so forced and labored.
02:08:07.000I have no doubt that Robert Shock is right.
02:08:09.000Robert Shock and John Anthony West, they're right about the Sphinx.
02:08:13.000And they have been attacked in all kinds of ways and all kinds of elaborate contorted explanations have been given to explain away that kind of weathering.
02:08:21.000But the fact is they remain to be right.
02:08:41.000As soon as Jamie gets back from the bathroom, we'll show some of the images of the Sphinx enclosure that led Robert Schock, who is a geologist, to very clearly proclaim that what you're dealing with is thousands of years of water erosion.
02:09:20.000People don't get burnt at the stake these days for proposing alternative ideas, but in a kind of way, you know, we do.
02:09:27.000There's the vicious nature of the attacks on people who propose an alternative view of history, but I think in our lifetimes we will see this change.
02:09:35.000And if folks haven't seen or haven't heard me talk about John Anthony West's amazing documentary series on Egypt, it's called Magical Egypt, and I can't recommend it enough.
02:09:55.000It's a massive, massive amount of work.
02:09:57.000And John is a man who's devoted his whole life to...
02:10:00.000Understanding, an alternative understanding of Egypt done with great wisdom and great care.
02:10:06.000Yeah, it's a really, really incredible series that I've watched many, many times over and over again and tried to absorb as much of it as I can, but it's so staggering.
02:10:18.000And he also showed very clear that there's some different styles of techniques of building and that these older techniques that you find or different techniques are We're all on a lower level of the soil.
02:10:32.000It's exactly like it is in the Peruvian Andes and Bolivia.
02:10:38.000What has happened, I think, is that archaeology has taken the work of the latest culture to work on the site and handed the whole site over to it.
02:10:47.000Actually, Giza is a very complicated site.
02:10:49.000You have the subterranean chamber beneath the Great Pyramid.
02:10:52.000Why do we have to believe that that is from the same date as the pyramid itself?
02:10:56.000You have the so-called mortuary temples and valley temples, these gigantic megalithic structures.
02:11:01.000The valley temple beside the Sphinx is actually made of blocks of limestone that were cut out from around the Sphinx to create the body of the Sphinx.
02:11:10.000So if the Sphinx is 12,000 years old, and I honestly think it is, then the valley temples are 12,000 years old as well.
02:11:16.000What we have are very complex, multi-layered sites where there's a very ancient, megalithic layer of architecture, and the later culture comes along, perhaps venerates that, perhaps overbuilds around it, and attempts to copy it in some ways.
02:11:30.000And the mistake has been, both in the Andes and in Egypt, that the later culture has been attributed with all the work.
02:11:36.000We need a more sophisticated, more in-depth exploration of this.
02:11:40.000And I think Gobekli Tepe is going to force us to do that.
02:11:42.000Jamie, if you could pull up some of the images that Robert Schock created of the water erosion as opposed to...
02:11:50.000I mean, you showed a little animated or illustrated image of it before.
02:12:38.000It's like a huge temple complex cut out underground.
02:12:43.000And there are traces of red ochre paint on the walls.
02:12:47.000They look much more like the caves, the painted caves, than they look like stuff from the Neolithic.
02:12:52.000And there was at one time a figure of a hybrid creature, a half bison, half bull.
02:12:59.000Such a figure would be normal in the painted caves from 30,000 years ago, but doesn't fit in with the idea that the Hypogeum belongs to 5,000 years ago.
02:13:10.000And this was solved by a certain gentleman, who shall remain nameless, who had the bison bull scrubbed off the walls of the Hypogeum in Malta.
02:13:38.000I took the National Museums of Malta to task over this when I was back there making a documentary with Channel 4. We put in a formal document to them asking them to answer this charge, and they refused to answer it.
02:13:49.000They would not comment upon it at all.
02:14:00.000I mean, just think about the whole cycle of thinking that goes from being a young person, wanting to explore history, wanting to become an archaeologist, getting involved in archaeology, getting involved in academia, and then...
02:14:13.000Destroying evidence that's contrary to what you've been taught or are teaching.
02:15:08.000The comet for me is the cataclysmic smoking gun that explains how we lost a whole civilization.
02:15:14.000And a whole lot of material like this.
02:15:16.000I'm not going to write an update of Fingerprints of the Gods.
02:15:18.000I'm going to write a completely new book.
02:15:20.000And that book, I'm in the process of researching.
02:15:22.000That's why I'm on these travels at the moment.
02:15:24.000That's why I'm going to Indonesia at the beginning of December.
02:15:26.000That book will be published at the end, in the fall of 2015. I'm due to deliver it to the publishers in December 2014, and it'll be published in the fall of 2015. And I see this as...
02:15:42.000In a way, a kind of summation of my life's work on this whole issue of a lost civilization.
02:15:48.000And I feel very committed to doing it.
02:15:50.000But honestly, my heart these days is in writing novels.
02:15:55.000So it took a long time for you to break away from...
02:15:58.000You were originally a journalist, then went from journalism to writing about ancient history and alternative view of ancient history.
02:16:05.000But it was a psychedelic experience that led you to want to write...
02:16:08.000It was a psychedelic experience with ayahuasca.
02:16:10.000Back in 2007, that set me on the track to write my first novel, which is Entangled, which is a story of two young women, one living 24,000 years ago in the Stone Age, one living in modern Los Angeles, whose destinies are entangled.
02:16:25.000That time is not what it seems, that it's a kind of spiral or a cat's cradle of intercrossing lines rather than an arrow.
02:16:32.000And they're brought together by a benign supernatural force, who I call the Blue Angel, to do battle with a demon who...
02:16:40.000Travels through time and then since then I've written War God which is a novel about the Spanish conquest of Mexico.
02:16:48.000Did get a British publisher for that book.
02:16:50.000That book's been published in Britain and it did okay.
02:16:53.000It did well enough at any rate for the publishers in Britain to commission volumes two and three because it's a series.
02:16:59.000I couldn't get any American publisher to take that book on but because publishing sees people in terms of brands and I am branded as a non-fiction author And how dare I write fiction as well?
02:17:41.000Well, that's actually derived from an Aztec image of a skull found on a ball court because they played this terrible game of And War God is the story of the Spanish conquest of Mexico.
02:17:58.000And if I could say to anybody who's listening, special offer for the next 10 days only, go to my website, which is grahamhancock.com, and click on the War God section, and you will find links to get it on amazon.com, either as an e-book or as a printed book.
02:18:16.000And what I will do is write to me at the address that's on my website there, which is wargoddedications at gmail.com.
02:18:30.000You buy the book from Amazon in the normal way.
02:18:32.000But you will receive through the post from me, if you write to me and give me your postal address, you will receive through the post from me a signed dedicated book plate to place inside it.
02:18:52.000That's a beautiful image, that image of the Aztec skull.
02:18:56.000I had read something somewhere where scholars were contemplating whether or not they were incorrect about the sacrifice, and they were saying that there may be a possibility that they played a game where they sacrificed the winning team.
02:19:11.000Human sacrifice was conducted on an industrial scale in the Aztec Empire.
02:19:16.000I've investigated this very, very thoroughly.
02:19:19.000It's a work of fiction, but I've thoroughly grounded it in the historical facts.
02:19:24.000And this was a tough history to investigate.
02:19:27.000I mean, the Aztecs were truly a terrifying culture.
02:19:31.000The Spanish, who turned up with 490 men in 11 ships on the Gulf of Mexico in 1519, were, if anything, an even more terrifying culture.
02:19:40.000These are two martial cultures who are brought together in this horrendous conflict.
02:19:46.000But, you know, it was a different time.
02:19:49.000It was a different world then in 1519. And I've tried to tell the story through the eyes of ordinary human beings.
02:19:56.000My main heroine is a true historical figure, a woman called Malinal, who became the mistress and the interpreter of Cortez.
02:20:04.000And when she enters history, she's given to Cortez as a surrender gift by the Maya.
02:20:10.000When she enters history, it's already clear that she has a grudge against Moctezuma.
02:20:15.000The Aztec Emperor, and that she is going to use Cortes as her instrument to bring him down.
02:20:20.000And I was just interested in her quest for revenge against the Aztec Emperor, and also to have a woman who's a hero in a story rather than just a man.
02:20:29.000What is the origin of this horrific level of human sacrifice?
02:20:39.000Well, again, that's a reason why I've written War God as a novel, because for the Aztecs, they believed that they were in touch with a supernatural entity that they called Huitzilopochtli, Hummingbird.
02:20:51.000I use his name in the English translation in the book, Hummingbird.
02:20:57.000And this is an area where we have to recognize that there is a dark side to psychedelics.
02:21:03.000I am a big fan of psychedelics, and I do think that psychedelics have a hugely important role to play.
02:21:08.000But the Aztecs were using psilocybin mushrooms in their human sacrifice rituals.
02:21:12.000And Moctezuma was encountering this demonic entity, hummingbird, In psilocybin trances and was constantly being given incredibly bad, even wicked advice by him.
02:21:25.000So I'm playing with the idea of dark spiritual forces at work behind human history, manipulating Moctezuma, manipulating Cortez and plunging mankind into this sea of cruelty and misery.
02:21:41.000And, you know, what redeems the story for me and does it at all times is that the human spirit still shines through, even in the darkest times.
02:21:49.000There is courage, there is decency, there is love.
02:21:52.000People struggle to show the best in themselves and to deliver the best in themselves.
02:23:39.000It's a very real part of human history.
02:23:41.000And the whole shape of the world we live in today, the terrible genocide that happened in North America, the destruction of the North American Indians, the conquest of Peru, the whole relationship of the European powers to Africa, for example, all of this was based on what happened in those years between 1519 and 1521 when the Spanish conquest of Mexico unfolded.
02:24:04.000And I think we were led onto a dark track.
02:24:08.000Imagine how it could have been if those two cultures, if the Spanish and the Aztecs, had met one another in a spirit of mutual learning.
02:24:15.000How much there was to exchange, how much each side of the Atlantic could have learned from the other.
02:24:20.000Instead, it becomes this kind of conflagration of blood.
02:24:25.000But it's difficult to place ourselves in the mindset of the people of that time.
02:24:31.000It is difficult for us to do that today.
02:24:33.000And I have to say, when you look at the Spaniards, I mean 490 men turn up on the coast of Mexico in 11 ships and they are going to take on this empire that can put 200,000 men into the field that will, if they catch you, will march you up the pyramid and cut your heart out.
02:24:49.000And many Spaniards were sacrificed in sight of their colleagues.
02:26:08.000I don't go with you on that, but I do in a way.
02:26:11.000I don't believe in demons, but I think it's undeniable that there have been massive groups of people that have participated in horrific things.
02:26:30.000I just think we should stay open to that possibility.
02:26:32.000That the nature of reality is so complex and so multi-layered that there may be much more going on than we think.
02:26:39.000And that if we just confine our explanations of things to purely economic and material terms, we may be missing part of the picture.
02:26:46.000And that when the ancients spoke of angels and demons, to use words, I'm not saying that I believe in angels or demons as such, but when they spoke of light and dark forces, negative and positive forces playing on the human race, maybe they had something going.
02:27:02.000Well, I always consider the fact that human beings have this incredibly broad spectrum of possibility, incredibly broad spectrum of behavior, of personality, of circumstance, of genetics, and that there's this yin and yang of life.
02:27:15.000There's this pull and push of life and that the extreme ends of it are good and evil.
02:27:21.000And it may not be a demon, but it might as well be a demon if you're marching 80,000 people up the side of a pyramid and cutting their heart out with a fucking stone tool.
02:28:21.000The alarming thing is that people often will choose the act that causes pain and suffering to others.
02:28:27.000And we are defined by our choices, and this is where we need to grow up as a species and start to choose the light.
02:28:33.000Do you think that this broad spectrum of possibilities, whether it's possibilities of thinking or behavior, it's almost there to educate us as to the destructive possibilities, that this huge spectrum that we have, Is so open-ended and so massive as to indicate that there are these extreme variables and these extreme variables can push us by understanding of the consequences into a more positive way.
02:29:18.000We learn here because there are those two different poles at the extreme end of which are good and evil with all kinds of gradations in between.
02:29:28.000And it's the choices we make day by day as we go through life that define us, ultimately.
02:29:33.000Now, whether there is any transcendental consequence to that, something beyond this life, some reckoning to take place, as the ancient Egyptians certainly believed there was, I don't know for sure.
02:29:45.000But I do know that a lifetime of making Decisions that cause pain and suffering to others and that detract from their sovereignty is a life that ultimately the person who's lived that life is diminished by it.
02:30:01.000I want to know how they got 80,000 people to get in a line to get their hearts cut out.
02:32:28.000It was an amazing, amazing coincidence.
02:32:30.000Is that what it is or is it a prophecy?
02:32:46.000What were the Spanish ships with their sails, but ships that moved by themselves without paddles.
02:32:50.000They would be dressed in shining metal armor and they would deploy weapons called Xihucoatl, which means fire serpents, which would dismember men at a distance, i.e.
02:33:04.000All of this was right there in the prophecy and Cortes was able to step right into that role and to turn around what should have been an obvious defeat for his tiny force into into a stunning, stunning victory.
02:33:22.000So many correlating ideas come together and that's why I felt I want to write a book about this.
02:33:27.000That's why I thought I want to get inside the heads of the characters and deal with that battle of good against evil at a level that one can't do in a non-fiction book.
02:33:46.000That image of the feathered serpent is from La Venta in the Gulf of Mexico.
02:33:52.000And that is in the oldest archaeological strata of Mexico.
02:33:55.000That image dates to an archaeological strata that is about 1,500 BC, 3,500 years ago.
02:34:04.000The stone itself may be much older than that, but the strata it's dug up from was already 3,500 years old.
02:34:10.000So this notion, and there are many images of people with kind of Caucasian features found in the same stratum, this notion of mysterious strangers who were in Mexico at some time and who would return is very ancient in the Mexican system.
02:34:25.000And how did they, I mean, there's a very different language that they used than ours, and it was very difficult for them to decipher a lot of the, especially the Mayan, the Aztec, the way they're, what exactly they were saying.
02:34:40.000How did they figure out that they're saying ships without oars and things, fire, guns, the whole deal?
02:34:48.000It's an interesting point that you raise.
02:34:50.000So when Cortez first lands in Mexico, He lands in the Yucatan and the people who live in the Yucatan are the Maya.
02:34:59.000They're the first people he encounters.
02:35:01.000And there he has an incredible stroke of luck.
02:35:03.000He can't speak a word of Maya and nor can anybody else in his group of Spaniards.
02:35:08.000But they discover that somebody who looks like them is living on the mainland as a prisoner of the Maya.
02:35:14.000The Spanish first landed in Cozumel Holiday Resort today.
02:35:18.000And the Mayan tribe on Cozumel were relatively peaceful, but the people on the mainland were not.
02:35:24.000The Maya of Cozumel came to Cortez with sign language.
02:35:28.000They pointed at him and they said, Castilian.
02:35:31.000They actually told him he was a Castilian.
02:35:33.000And Cortez thought, how can they know I'm a Castilian?
02:35:35.000That's what the Spanish called themselves.
02:35:36.000And gradually through sign language, he figured out what it was, that there was a Spaniard who'd been shipwrecked on the coast of Mexico.
02:35:44.000At some point, it turned out it was 11 years before.
02:35:46.000In fact, 26 Spaniards had been shipwrecked 11 years before.
02:35:50.00025 of them had been eaten by the Maya.
02:35:53.000But one, Jeronimo Aguilar had survived.
02:35:57.000So Cortes grabbed him, and I tell this story in my book, and Aguilar became Cortes' first interpreter because he spoke fluent Maya by then.
02:36:05.000He'd been living amongst the Maya for 11 years, and he spoke Spanish as well.
02:36:10.000So suddenly they could understand the Maya, they could communicate with the Maya.
02:36:14.000But then when they went on and they encountered the Aztecs for the first time, the Aztecs spoke another language, and that language was Nahuatl.
02:37:21.000And the local accounts from the time tell us how Malinal, standing there on the causeway outside Tenochtitlan, looked Moctezuma straight in the eye.
02:37:28.000She never lowered her eyes for a second as she gave him the words of Cortez.
02:37:32.000And I'm just fascinated by the courage of this woman and what drove her to use Cortez as her instrument to bring Moctezuma down.
02:38:47.000So she's the central character in my novel, and we meet her in the fattening pen at the foot of the Great Pyramid, along with another woman who plays a big part in my story, a young witch called Tozi.
02:38:58.000This is why Malinal escapes, but this is why she wants to bring Moctezuma down, because she sees him as the head of an empire of terror, and she sees Cortez as the only way to bring Moctezuma to his knees.
02:39:10.000Well, it's fascinating they would regard her as a traitor when you think about what Montezuma had done to his own people.
02:39:52.000He wanted to become the king of Mexico.
02:39:55.000After he eventually, there was an apocalyptic final battle.
02:40:00.000When the Spanish took Tenochtitlan, which is the old name for Mexico City, and Cortes, really it's clear that his plan was to become the new king of Mexico, but the king of Spain had different ideas, and they pulled Cortes down.
02:40:13.000They gave him a title, he became a Marquis, but he was never allowed to fulfill his dreams, and I see karma at work in that as well.
02:40:23.000If he'd been a better man, perhaps he would have been allowed to fulfill some dreams.
02:41:42.000Actually supporting my work and spending a few dollars on getting hold of a copy of War God, go to my website, buy it through the Amazon link, check out the email address that's there, which is wargoddedications at gmail.com, write to me and I will at my own expense, by airmail, send you a signed,
02:42:15.000When you live in this sweet, cushy society that we live in today, especially here in Los Angeles where it doesn't even rain, you know, go to a supermarket and get some meat, everything's so soft and easy.
02:42:26.000It's so hard for us to wrap our heads around that just 500 plus years ago this was going down in Mexico.
02:42:51.000And the book that really got me into Graham Hancock in the first place, which is Fingerprints of the Gods, Also available everywhere on Amazon.
02:43:00.000And the links for WarGuard are on my website, grahamhancock.com.