In this episode of The Joe Rogan Experience, I sit down with my brother Eddie Bravo and former UFC fighter Joe Hicks to talk about the evolution of the martial arts and how it has impacted his life and career. Joe is a Red Belt in Brazilian jiu jitsu and is one of the best in the business at his current position. He has been around the MMA game for a long time and has a lot of experience in the sport. He is a very humble guy and I had a great conversation with him and I hope you enjoy this episode. If you like what you hear here, please HIT SUBSCRIBE and leave us a rating and review on Apple Podcasts and other podcasting platforms! You can also join our FB group, and join the conversation by using the hashtag , and tag to be featured on the next episode of . Thanks to our sponsor, Onnit. Onnit is a human optimization website that helps you optimize your health and performance through the power and efficiency of your body and mind. Onnit makes the best products and equipment you can use to improve your life, your body, and your mindset. You get 10% off any and all supplements you need to get the most out of your day to day life! onnit is making the best possible day-to-day life, workout, nutrition, and mindset! and overall well-being! Cheers! Joe Rogans Podcast - The Jerks! - Cheers, Jamie and Eddie Bravo Check it out! (and the boys at Onnit nght Podcast! Cheers. -Joe Rogan Podcast! -The Jerks Podcast -Jon Rocha -The Crew at The Jerk Show -Eddie Bravo - & the Jerk Experience -Josie and the Crew at Sideshow -And much more! -Jon Rogan's Dad, and the Jerky Crew - and much more!! - Jon & Eddie Bravo, and more! "The Jerky Experience" - and so much more... Jon Rogan and the crew at The Crew at the Jerki Show! - and more!! - and his family at the Crew Podcast! Jon & The Jerky Show, and The Crew! - And so much MORE! - Jon and The Jerki Experience! ...and much more!!! ...
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00:03:41.000Out of all the people online, whenever things get brought up for mixed martial arts guests or jujitsu guests, it's always get Hicks and Gracie on the podcast.
00:03:51.000So the clouds have parted, the stars have aligned, and you're here, and we appreciate it very much.
00:03:57.000I'm very thankful too, Joe and Eddie, to be with you guys here and have this conversation.
00:04:04.000It's funny because last time we talked in my house, a while ago, of course, you make me some questions, you're curious, you're all about knowing what has in my mind.
00:04:22.000And, you know, in the past, and the time goes by, and today I can see, after all this process of evolutionary process in the MMA and the martial arts world, I mean, since then I've been watching you doing your job.
00:04:39.000Commenting fights, analyzing other fighters.
00:04:42.000And today I can see, man, you are a red belt in the whole extension of the world.
00:04:48.000I mean, if I have a question, I have to call you and ask you what's up because I'm very, very, I mean, impressed with your career, with your charisma, with the way you position your opinions.
00:05:13.000We had dinner with your family and then we watched some fights.
00:05:17.000And it was really interesting watching fights with you and watching you break down positions and break down mistakes that people were making.
00:05:23.000And I've told a lot of people about that, man.
00:05:24.000I've told a lot of people about that night.
00:05:27.000That documentary, Choke, that is one documentary that I've told people.
00:05:31.000If you're really interested in Jiu-Jitsu, you really want to find out what the spirit of Jiu-Jitsu is all about, watch the documentary, Choke.
00:05:47.00095 going into 96, and you were fighting in Japan, in the Japan Valley Tudo, and it documented a lot of your training, and it documented your philosophy.
00:07:24.000That was the first time I had ever seen a martial artist that was really into yoga.
00:07:29.000Yes, I think for the athlete in general, the understanding of the breathing is a big plus because by hyperventilating, you stretch your physical potential.
00:07:42.000By knowing how to breathe properly, you relax.
00:07:50.000There's a lot of elements in the breathing who are involved We're controlling emotions, getting more energy and so on.
00:07:57.000So as I get exposed to breathing properly, I get addicted and I felt like it was a huge element of, you know, in addition to the techniques, in addition to the heart and to the heart training.
00:08:11.000Learning the breathing is a huge beneficial thing for the athlete.
00:08:16.000Now you see athletes like tennis players, they play in breathing, and the breath is much more into the sport today.
00:08:29.000Knowing, now I see Krohn, my son, he's, I mean, before he's just like, see, oh, Dad, I see you training and breathing.
00:08:36.000But now he's coming to me and said, Dad, this makes all the difference in the world when I really, you know, start to getting tired to make hyperventilation and keep my mind, like, sharp.
00:09:22.000There's the Gracie family, and then there's, you know, I guess you could have a debate about who comes in second, but it's kind of ridiculous.
00:09:28.000That is the number one martial arts family of all time.
00:09:32.000And you obviously learned Jiu-Jitsu from a very early age, but how did you get involved into the yoga?
00:09:38.000Oh, it was, you know, I'm very happy to be related with this master called Orlando Cunny.
00:09:47.000Which was the precursor of the Ginástica Natural.
00:09:51.000I was learning at the same time, Alvaro Romano, who is the guy who is now making the tapes.
00:10:00.000And at that point, I was just practicing with him, like he loved my father.
00:10:08.000He's an older guy who's a very tough athlete and also a yoga teacher.
00:10:12.000So he combined He developed some kind of style of yoga which is not exactly a postural, like postures and breathing to relax or to achieve meditation.
00:10:24.000It was more like an active breathing for athletes.
00:10:27.000In order for you to jump higher, you have to know how to have harmony between your jump and your breathing.
00:10:37.000You have to know how to breed accordingly to promote that.
00:10:41.000So he's always in the active breeding.
00:10:46.000And then we started doing privates and I was in his place for a couple of months.
00:10:52.000He's guiding me through the moves in front of a mirror in a nice room.
00:10:58.000One day, we were about to start the class, and as soon as we were about to start, he was calling the phone, and he said to me, Hickson, you keep going and I'll be right back.
00:11:12.000So for the first time, I was able to breathe, make my routine without following him up, without having my mind focused on what he was doing.
00:11:21.000So I started to breathe and move and breathe and move, And then it has some woods on the walls.
00:11:29.000We kind of imitate monkeys to climb the wood and stuff.
00:11:33.000So at one point, I come back to reality.
00:11:37.000And then I was on top of the highest frame in the wall, sweating like a pig.
00:11:44.000And then I look around and start to come back to reality.
00:13:45.000So you just got into this state and you could just exist.
00:13:48.000No conscious thought, no thinking about anything around you, no past, no future.
00:13:53.000Just exist in that moment with no context.
00:13:56.000Yes, and that's a kind of a weird positive feeling because You're capable to be present in a sense which, if you have your mind set, if you have something, expectations, you're never there.
00:14:11.000So I was able to be very comfortable and very easily to get into that situation where even prior to the fight, I'm able to sleep on the locker room, making my workout, getting a very high heartbeat.
00:14:27.000And then like five minutes before, I make my praise, I make my meditation, and I kind of cool off my heartbeat to 60 heartbeats a minute.
00:14:36.000So I was able to engage very hot, And with the hard, very low heartbeat.
00:14:43.000And as the fight progresses, the pace is very hard.
00:14:47.000If I'm 60, he is 80. When I'm 80, he's 100. When I'm 100, he's 120. When I'm 120, he's a 45. So when he started to have to regroup, I was still having to go forward.
00:15:02.000So at that point, my opponents always lose a little bit.
00:15:07.000So it was a time for me to make the kill, you know.
00:15:10.000So it was always working properly for me.
00:15:13.000The breathing was always working very well.
00:15:16.000So this empty mind state enhanced your jiu-jitsu, this ability to achieve this state on top of all the techniques, on top of all the training and the instincts, this took it to the next level.
00:15:26.000Yes, because, you know, at one point, if you allowed yourself to be present, you not commit to the offense or the defense, you commit to give nothing and take everything.
00:15:37.000So you give me opportunity, I will be there.
00:15:40.000If you try to surprise me, I will be there accordingly defending myself.
00:16:18.000So for me, it was always like whatever happened, I'm there, I'm happy, comfortable, finding comfortable, finding the sharpness to...
00:16:26.000To achieve success, you know, so it was great.
00:16:29.000You grew up in this jiu-jitsu family, but you were always, at least from most people's interpretation, you were always the best guy out of the family.
00:19:30.000He was known as a guy who went all over the world, studied Sambo, studied some catch wrestling and wrestlers, and he would bring that back, right?
00:21:32.000So once Halls grabbed them in the footlock, especially in the final match in his weight division, He got the guy on the footlock, the referee stopped the fight and said, no, you cannot get the footlock on the joint.
00:22:36.000And then we come in and I was in the My Way division, which is one above Halls.
00:22:43.000And Hollis was below me, and Carlos was on top of me.
00:22:47.000So we're kind of having one in each division.
00:22:50.000And as the competition progresses, the referees start to see those three guys from Brazil just submitting everybody because in Samba, chokes are not allowed.
00:25:40.000And I start to develop, you know, very quickly.
00:25:43.000It was just adapt to my game and was an...
00:25:47.000In addition to the arsenal, it was great.
00:25:50.000It's funny when you look back at old Eric Paulson fights from Japan, you look at the stuff he was doing, and people today still aren't even doing that.
00:26:03.000Those guys back then, it looked like Like advanced Jiu Jitsu, and of course, you know, anytime you got the mount, there was always an arm bar.
00:26:10.000Yeah, but you know, that time, Eric was being training very consistently for us.
00:26:16.000He's a good brother and a training partner.
00:26:19.000He's always been a great warrior, and I have a lot of respect for him.
00:28:39.000First, of course, it's a pleasure to talk about all this.
00:28:44.000And I can answer that because I feel like the heel hooks...
00:28:49.000It has to be implemented in the top-level fighters because it's a solid technique, but because it's designed to stretch the ligaments, not the joints, it's a difference between you going in your finger this way,
00:29:06.000you're going to feel pain before it breaks.
00:29:10.000But if you go this way, you're going to resist until it pops.
00:30:18.000I allow heel hooks from day one only because I... As an instructor, I don't want some leg lock guy coming into my school and tapping everybody out with leg locks.
00:30:29.000So I wanted all my guys to be very well-versed in leg locks.
00:30:47.000Yeah, I think that kind of education is kind of positive because it gives the guy the sense.
00:30:53.000If he feels the problem, he has to tap in advance.
00:30:56.000He cannot allow the pop to happen because you're going to bust your knee.
00:30:59.000And in Naga and Grapper's Quest, they allow heel hooks and you rarely ever hear about anybody getting hurt.
00:31:05.000I think once you learn how to defend it, it's actually...
00:31:11.000People will tap generally, and some people that don't tap, like Gary Tonin was talking about the first time, someone got him in a heel hook and his knee popped a few times.
00:31:19.000He thought, well, if I tap now, it already popped.
00:31:43.000Again, in 10 years, I... I can't even tell you that maybe leg compressions a couple times guys have had their knees pop from leg compressions and even lockdown I've had a couple guys get their knee popped but heel hooks and reaping that's not something that I ever had to say we got to slow down be careful with the knee reaps just no one really gets hurt what seems to be a technique that when people were ignorant of it that's when people are really getting hurt more yeah Yeah,
00:32:08.000sometimes when they really want to go for the hurt, they don't visualize the possibilities to hurt.
00:32:14.000So they go and go full power from the beginning to the end.
00:32:18.000So it's not even a chance to the guy tap.
00:32:21.000So that's more like the mindset of the guy who's attacking.
00:32:25.000If he wants to break your knee, it's a great chance to do that in a heel.
00:32:29.000And when we were adding wrestling to our jiu-jitsu classes, trying to combine it, now we separate.
00:32:34.000We have separate wrestling classes and separate jiu-jitsu classes.
00:32:37.000At a time when I was trying to combine it together, we would have a day where we'd just do wrestling and we'd do live wrestling drills and we're all standing up.
00:35:55.000But eventually he settled and he understood was a technique involved.
00:36:01.000And he started to become training with Pedro and become passionate about Jiu Jitsu.
00:36:08.000He trained a lot and he became like a supporter of the Jiu Jitsu cause in Utah.
00:36:15.000And you know, it was a great experience because I can felt like the whole level of training and body control he has, but still like at that point the wrestlers have no clue what is, you know, submission.
00:36:30.000So it was kind of, you know, a surprising thing for them, which doesn't happen those days.
00:36:35.000Do you remember specifically what moves Holes brought from wrestling and from Sambo?
00:36:43.000A good weight distribution, a good way to...
00:36:46.000Like if the guy grabs you, you're able to make the movement to go to his back, like good turnovers, a good excellent sense of no-gi bass control, good grips to...
00:39:30.000I mean, of course, people saw the training, but at that point, I felt like I was there still to support him, but I was better than him.
00:39:42.000And we're still competing in the events coming, and we always close the bracket because he goes in his weight division, I go in mine, and we go together in the open division.
00:39:53.000So we always close the open, you know, and I never will fight, I mean, up to that day, he always being the first and I'm the second, the medal is his, even though I knew I could maybe change this, you know?
00:41:03.000And I... I mean, I really appreciate you talking about the past, but I'd like to make a little pause on this and really bring up the most...
00:41:18.000And I'm very happy today to come here to explain and talk about this new venture I'm involved with, which is the new JJGF, Jiu-Jitsu Global Federation.
00:41:32.000Because talking about Jiu-Jitsu, talking about rules, talking about the future of Jiu-Jitsu, I think we're having a huge problem to be resolved.
00:41:48.000I see like this new organization will bring to the table the elements to resolve our problem.
00:41:57.000I think our biggest problem today in the Jiu Jitsu community is losing effectiveness.
00:42:07.000We've been losing effectiveness drastically from the last 15 years because The way, in order for us to restore effectiveness, I felt very appealing to me to engage in this venture,
00:42:26.000which through this federation, We're going to try to resolve three important...
00:42:32.000I mean, we have three pillars of action to try to resolve that problem Jiu-Jitsu has.
00:42:53.000Today, I see the top camp champions very efficient on getting medals, but they're losing effectiveness in real life.
00:43:04.000And if you see Jiu-Jitsu as I grow up, the core of Jiu-Jitsu was self-defense, is preparing the students to handle situations.
00:43:16.000Today, the evolutionary process of jiu-jitsu brought the sport of jiu-jitsu and those rules, diminishing that effectiveness in the search for the medal.
00:43:28.000So, and like, nothing can be boring for me, more boring than watch some fights in jiu-jitsu tournaments those days.
00:43:38.000They can choose between stepping the brake or stepping on the gas.
00:43:44.000They can choose because the rules favor...
00:43:48.000If you are strategically correct, you may want to go in the fight to fight a situation where you can control the pace of the fight, you can manage the whole thing, and eventually, by one or two moves, you get advantage and win the medal.
00:44:11.000A lack of desire to engage in a fair fight.
00:44:14.000A lot of times I see a white belt or a blue belt or a purple belt fight which is much more appealing, has much more open situations of changing positions than a black belt who sometimes sits on the floor and is stuck in a position who holds...
00:45:14.000They have a sportive guard all the time trying to do homoplatas, you know, instead, and the guy on top just hamming them down.
00:45:21.000So it's kind of weird because without that kind of efficiency, I mean, I'm sorry, effectiveness, Jiu-Jitsu is losing the integrity, the whole culture,
00:45:36.000the whole concepts I trust and I believe all my life.
00:45:40.000So if I can clarify, your issue is with points and with advantage points?
00:46:49.000So they will have the option to request sponsors, show themselves.
00:46:55.000It's like a Google slash Facebook for the community.
00:47:00.000And also we're going to have a Masters Council which brings all the guys who have traditionally spent their lives in the Jiu-Jitsu community to have a voice, active voice for the community.
00:47:18.000Sometimes somebody makes a question about a position, so the masters will be involved in answers if they want, and they will be highlighted because that's his opinion, that's my opinion.
00:47:29.000So people, the community is going to start to evaluate what's beneficial and what's negative, what the master has to say.
00:47:36.000So it creates a network which is most needed to unify the community.
00:47:41.000I see the community, should they completely split?
00:47:44.000You know, some federations have their own circuits, some others.
00:47:48.000So it's 30 events on one side, another 30 on the other side, and then has, you know, Naga 7, Grappler Quest, have Dream, have IBJJF. So all this is completely disorganized and completely split.
00:48:06.000So my intention is bringing to the community a sense of Of unification.
00:48:14.000Based on this information, who is good for everyone.
00:48:18.000Like another important point is have contributors from all over to bringing the reports of what's happening in this event, who is the champion, who is that, news and everything.
00:48:29.000Because some magazines today, they're completely partial.
00:48:32.000They just will talk and explain about their athletes or in their society.
00:48:37.000It does not cover the whole community.
00:48:40.000So through this information, this solid, efficient, general information, the whole community will be informed, will be connected, will be asking and being listened.
00:48:56.000So I think that's very important for the community.
00:49:00.000Another big pillar of our federation is the competition aspect, which...
00:49:08.000By changing rules, we restore effectiveness.
00:50:00.000It's a position where you hold with the intention to preserve the position, to preserve the control of the dynamic of the fight.
00:50:10.000You're stalling because you want to be in control by using what I call an anti-jiu-jitsu move, which prevents you from keeping action.
00:50:23.000Because the idea is both engage and see who's the best, who's submit, who's passing, who's mounting, who's getting.
00:50:30.000And sometimes people, to minimize that risk, they're kind of keeping the situation under control, a position they can control the sleeves, putting the leg, entangle it, so he's comfortable to...
00:50:42.000To proceed until the point he needs to make a little advantage.
00:50:46.000So this diminishes the effectiveness because this kind of strategy doesn't work in real life.
00:51:36.000But if you see it, you can see who's just trying to minimize the action and try to wait for their opportunity, and the other one who's trying to make it happen, you know?
00:51:45.000What about submission-only tournaments?
00:51:52.000The point rules, system for tournaments, And we have the challenge rules for matchmaking like the Metamorris kind or any promoter who will try to do something like the baddest purple belt.
00:52:46.000Both who kind of didn't submit should be disqualified because sometimes in the same bracket, two tough guys, they fight each other and they could not submit to each other.
00:53:28.000So in the second round, we still don't have positive points.
00:53:32.000But every time the guy put himself in a position and he start to defend himself without attempting to escape or giving the combat, just protecting or resting or whatever, the referee is going to say, hey man, keep going, acting or you're going to be penalized.
00:53:48.000So we have negative points for diminishing of combativity.
00:53:54.000So at the end of the second round, if we see, like, somebody with minus points, this one will be the loser, you know, because he displays less desire or less guess or less techniques to be on top of the competition.
00:54:12.000So he's minus because he's defending all the time, he was tired or whatever, so he gets minus points and then...
00:54:20.000The other guy advances for the bracket.
00:54:22.000So that's the only change for the submission.
00:54:41.000And in the overtime, it's kind of like soccer.
00:54:44.000I didn't want overtimes to be determined by wrestling in a lot of tournaments.
00:54:50.000It's like you go into overtime and whoever's the best wrestler wins because you get the takedown and then they hold and then they win.
00:54:55.000So a lot of wrestlers can go into tournaments and go, I'm just going to stall for regulation.
00:55:00.000Take it into overtime and win with my wrestling.
00:55:02.000So in order to eliminate that, I wanted to know who the best submission artist is, not who the best wrestler is.
00:55:08.000So my overtime, each person, like if we went into overtime, you get to start on my back with the leg hooks and an over-under, and then we go.
00:55:17.000If you submit me, then I get to go on your back, and if you escape, you win.
00:55:22.000But if I submit you, then we go another round.
00:56:08.000In this new federation, in the same way we have the Master Council, we're going to have the Development Council, and you're going to be invited right now to be part, because I see people like...
00:56:21.000You guys are not just know the deal, know the sport, but also has opinion to make.
00:56:27.000And my idea is not to ride my rules in stone.
00:56:31.000My idea is to follow the best pattern to create more effectiveness and more dynamic aspect for the sport.
00:56:38.000So the Federation has this open heart and open eye and open ears to kind of make the best conclusions for the sport.
00:57:05.000So I'm going to service through the information.
00:57:08.000I'm going to service to giving reference and giving guidance for the events.
00:57:13.000But even though they don't do my rules, I will legitimize everybody and I will start to relate the records of every event, who won here, who won there, and I start to put everybody to become part of the same profile,
00:57:29.000the same mindset, and I will hammer the idea of why we don't do the best rules for Jiu-Jitsu.
00:57:38.000Because I bet the champions today, many of them, they're going to say, oh, I don't like, I prefer to do this or that.
00:57:44.000But I'm not here to educate those champions.
00:57:46.000I'm here to educate 85% of the competitive community today who is still white and blue belt.
00:57:54.000Those guys, they're being misled to understand the strategy of the game to get the medals, but they're losing effectiveness in real life.
00:58:07.000The change of rules, aside of the education aspect of the Federation, is very important.
00:58:13.000How I see the service of the Federation in the educational level.
00:58:19.000Because a lot of times, guys coming from the competitive background, from white to purple to brown and black, so they become tough competitors, sometimes champions, they become famous, then they open the school.
00:58:33.000And as they open the school, They teach what they know.
00:58:38.000Their techniques will make them feel champions.
00:58:42.000But this is just like a percentage of what he's supposed to know to teach.
00:58:48.000Because not everybody wants to go there to compete.
00:58:52.000Not everybody has the skills and the toughness to engage in that kind of level of training.
00:58:59.000I feel like jiu-jitsu is there to favor the community as a whole.
00:59:03.000I feel like the instructor, he has to be knowledgeable about self-defense, about self-defense for women, about programs for kids, kids' class, and law enforcement.
00:59:16.000So as the instructor becomes certified, I mean, I'm not going to validate all the skills, The instructors, all the black belts today.
00:59:27.000I'm not going to say you don't deserve it, but I will suggest to them to get certified through the Federation, because they will get elements for their schools to become more efficient, retain more students, have better teaching programs,
00:59:48.000The other day I heard some black belts being asked for a student about self-defense.
00:59:54.000He said, no, no, if you want to self-defense, you go to Grav Maga.
00:59:59.000And I felt that this is just something that goes straight on my heart because for me the core of Jiu-Jitsu is self-defense.
01:00:07.000If you don't know self-defense, basically you don't know Jiu-Jitsu.
01:00:11.000You have to be ready to defend yourself from a slapping, from a hug, from a headlock, from whatever.
01:00:17.000And if you don't have those concepts lined up, you become sometimes very tough, with tough years, with very good grip, endurance forever.
01:00:25.000But you're still counting on your own physicality.
01:00:29.000You cannot teach that for children or for women.
01:00:33.000So by having the Federation presenting those courses and spreading this all over the world, The teacher will have much more elements to have more students, to have more knowledge to feed his students in different levels and make a different job with Jiu Jitsu.
01:00:58.000You see a bad direction that it's going in the competition?
01:01:01.000Jiu Jitsu is losing effectiveness and we have to restore that by informing very well, by Understand the competition as a progressive thing to make you a better fighter, not to make a better competitor.
01:01:14.000You know, if you're a competitor, sometimes a taekwondo guy, he's a great competitor, but he has nothing to do with real life.
01:01:24.000Jiu-jitsu is something you learn to protect your honor, to protect your dignity, to represent, to fight, to make money in the cage, whatever your goals are.
01:01:35.000Jiu Jitsu is there to support you in a very profound and deep cause which is effectiveness.
01:01:42.000The transition between jujitsu and jujitsu competition and mixed martial arts is a very tricky transition for a lot of jujitsu fighters.
01:01:50.000Yes, especially when they don't have that kind of strong background.
01:01:56.000I think if everybody fights like Krohn, we don't have to set up rules because he wants to accelerate.
01:02:49.000Under this concept, the possibility to unify the whole community, not only this particular association or this federation, but everybody in the same part.
01:03:01.000And then, without taking anything from nobody, my vision is to create a worldwide circuit of jiu-jitsu, which represents The same thing, the ASP for surf or the ATT for tennis,
01:03:19.000which brings major players, like big sponsors and television for the sport.
01:03:27.000So first is unified, try to unify the rules, try to create effectiveness, try to give a better condition for the teacher, for the school owner, for the independent promoter.
01:03:38.000Because I cannot think about, okay, I'm going to start to make my own circus, and I don't validate nobody, it's just me, like other people do.
01:03:47.000So that's a wrong way to unify and educate the community and our culture for the future.
01:04:22.000What is unacceptable is that grip promotes only A cool-off situation.
01:04:29.000I can grab anywhere I want if my intention is to progress.
01:04:34.000If I start to say, okay, coming to me, coming to Papa, and I stay here waiting to waste your energy, and then when you make a mistake, I sweep you, that's kind of weak in your mindset, weak in your progressiveness, weak in your effectiveness.
01:07:11.000Because the idea is a positive, beneficial idea for the sport.
01:07:15.000And if we need to adjust a little more and change, like I said, nothing is on the stone yet.
01:07:21.000And we're going to allow the thing to, you know, hearing people and seeing the conclusions because the mission is very positive and the means will be adaptable.
01:07:36.000You've seen jujitsu progress from the time you were a boy to what it is today.
01:07:41.000I mean, it's got to be an amazing thing.
01:07:43.000An amazing thing also to have taken part in those first initial invasion moments when you guys came and you, like, there's so many of the Gracie in action videos where, you know, Horian is battling with the karate guys and, you know, you're battling with judo guys and people that had no idea what jujitsu was.
01:08:01.000I remember very clearly when I saw the first Ultimate Fighting Championship that I saw was number two.
01:08:07.000They had a video tape that was out, and I watched it, and I watched Hoist win, and I remember thinking to myself, man, I didn't even know that there was anything like this out there.
01:11:35.000So he sent me an invitation to participate in a Shoro competition.
01:11:40.000And then they sent me a tape to see what the rules are about.
01:11:45.000And I didn't like the rules, but I liked the locks.
01:11:48.000So I started training the locks and I said, no, man, this is, I mean, there's no, I don't like it.
01:11:52.000So, and then we start to immediately say, I don't want to do.
01:11:57.000And then my ex-wife, much more calm, started to negotiate with the guys and started to say, but if we change the rules, so it was kind of...
01:12:07.000Talk and talk and eventually they decide to change the rules for a new open rules like and then I advise the way supposed to be the rules so we create the new VALITUDO 94 and then When I signed the...
01:12:20.000I mean, when I about to sign the contract, Horion called me and said, Hickson, what are you doing?
01:12:25.000He said, yeah, man, I'd be invited to fight in Japan.
01:12:27.000I said, no, you should not go because this goes against the family.
01:14:29.000Hordeon created a very awkward situation, you know, and was a kind of little division, you know, so I was not appealing to go there and show my support to Hoist and be there just...
01:14:45.000So I allowed him to have his own destiny.
01:14:48.000There was also the talk that Hoyce was a slender guy, he was younger, he wasn't as intimidating as you, and that it sort of accentuated the idea of Jiu Jitsu, that Jiu Jitsu was technique-based, whereas you're a scary guy.
01:15:00.000You're a scary guy now, but you were a really scary guy then.
01:16:55.000So, after that, I started to get a free agent for a couple of years.
01:17:01.000We tried to make something closer to what I have, but the whole business itself in Japan, the fact that Sakuraba lost for Vanderlei and things like that, diminished that kind of huge purse.
01:17:16.000And then I felt like, no, I just want to fight if it's that much.
01:17:20.000So I started to be very resistant about my next fight, some opportunities, but I kind of pushed away.
01:17:27.000And to the point, in 2008, I was already moved back to Brazil for a while.
01:17:33.000A guy from Texas invited me to compete in a new event and pulled me to fight feather.
01:17:39.000And I was looking for that, but I had a little injury on my hip.
01:17:45.000And until I be able to feel good to train, I could not sign.
01:17:50.000And because he has a deadline in terms of promotion and such, I could not sign without having 100% confidence because if I sign, I will fight.
01:19:24.000At the time, we could express technique with more because we had time.
01:19:30.000Somebody asked me, oh yeah, you have only a few fights in MMA. I said, no, I never fought MMA. I always fought valetudo because MMA is a different animal.
01:19:41.000You go there for three rounds, five minutes, It's better to have offensive techniques than defensive techniques.
01:19:47.000The defense is not going to do good for you.
01:19:49.000It's going to do good if you have at least one round 10 minutes and then another.
01:19:54.000So if you have, like, my fights are endless rounds of 15 minutes.
01:20:07.000the movements and you cannot just go all the way empty your gas and then fill up and empty again because you know if you empty your gas in the wrong time you're in trouble So all the technique and stretching your gas and be calm and finding comfortable positions,
01:20:27.000Now it becomes a very extreme, a very physical.
01:20:29.000You see athletes in the same weight division, but a guy who fights in the 155 walks around with 180, 185. So the technology on the sport today is a huge thing, the physicality.
01:20:43.000That's why technique is only a piece of it.
01:20:47.000You know, what Krohn does today is not only training Jiu Jitsu and become comfortable in the skills.
01:20:52.000He's training like a dog and all the elements he can do to become athletic and explosive and physical and going to lost weight like everybody else.
01:22:40.000So, it's always like halfway to what's supposed to be.
01:22:44.000You know, because, okay, you have to decide by points.
01:22:48.000Okay, so, I mean, it's hard because, you know, sometimes the guy even have the best of it.
01:22:55.000But that doesn't guarantee if the fight goes longer, if it's still that, because toughness, resilience, and heart, and technique, they all going to pay, in one point, going to pay a big situation, you know?
01:23:09.000So, for me, not the rules today in the UFC and such, doesn't translate perfectly.
01:24:21.000If I have the health today and the physicality I like to have, I mean, I don't see a guy, just because he's winning on the cage, he can win me.
01:24:31.000Because I don't see the opportunities happen on the cage, I'm not going to give those opportunities.
01:24:37.000So, it's hard to say, but, you know, the weight division doesn't make too much difference for me if I have the time to cook and slow burn.
01:25:01.000So then that's kind of unbalanced now based on the extreme aspect of the sport, the physicality of the sport, and the technique that has to be applied.
01:25:10.000So the difference between a fight and a match.
01:25:12.000The difference between a fight and a sport.
01:25:14.000And in a fight, they're just two guys going at each other.
01:25:17.000And I agree that there's many, many, many fights where a guy win a 10-9 round, and another guy win the other 10-9 round, and then one guy win the final round, maybe 10-9.
01:25:35.000I mean, sometimes beautiful knockouts, but sometimes, you know, it's just, you know, too much strength, too much physicality, and every time he goes to the floor, the guy immediately stands up because if he knows, if he stays on the ground, he's losing time and he's not going to be able to capitalize because the time is not as long as enough.
01:25:54.000So that's kind of, you know, a gray area.
01:25:57.000It doesn't have the appeal for me to see a good...
01:27:37.000Now, there's a lot of problems jujitsu guys have, world-class, mundial black belt champions have in MMA, is they get in the cage and...
01:27:49.000I would say it's a big reason why they end up getting cut from the UFC. They end up fighting wrestlers.
01:27:56.000Everyone at the top 10 is really hard to take down the UFC. So a jiu-jitsu guy will come in and he's fighting a guy who wrestled his whole life.
01:28:04.000There's zero chance that he's going to be able to take down that wrestler.
01:28:09.000So the wrestler is forcing the kickboxing fight because the jiu-jitsu guy can't take down the wrestler.
01:28:16.000In those situations, Like, I don't know if you remember Noguera when he fought Tim Sylvia, the big giant guy, he could not take Tim Sylvia down.
01:28:26.000So he eventually shot, Tim Sylvia sprawled a little bit, and then Noguera pulled guard.
01:28:31.000He was on his back, he swept him, he got on top, and then he choked him out with a guillotine.
01:28:37.000So in that situation, the guard pull saved Noguera.
01:28:41.000What do you think about guard pulling?
01:30:06.000Because once you know how to defend, like arm lock.
01:30:09.000You're becoming available for ground and pound.
01:30:13.000So if the guy is completely safe on not getting caught in the triangle, your attempts of techniques are kind of diminishing your capacity to survive and to defend yourself.
01:30:25.000So you're attacking techniques from the bottom, but you're still on the reach.
01:31:21.000But you still can use different strikes, you know.
01:31:23.000You can even have the distance to survive and to be completely protected against elbows and...
01:31:29.000The issue though that if someone can disengage, if you're on your back and you're trying to not clinch and not hold on to him, you're a jiu-jitsu practitioner, the guy can just disengage.
01:31:59.000So they could just keep doing that over and over again.
01:32:01.000And if it's a wrestler like Chuck Liddell, who's an expert striker as well as a wrestler, very tough to take down, but also an expert striker.
01:32:09.000When you get that guy to the ground, don't you want to optimize that opportunity as much as possible and hang on to him while you're on the bottom?
01:32:22.000If he's on me, I will sweep him, I will be on his back in no time.
01:32:27.000If he's away from me, if he wants to look for distance, I have to understand that and respect that and protect myself to don't get pounded.
01:32:35.000And that process of, okay, I don't want to engage, he's moving back, and then you stand up.
01:32:40.000In all this process, a lot of things happen.
01:32:43.000What is important for a jiu-jitsu fighter is know everything about the anti-game of the striker.
01:32:52.000I don't make Krone, I don't try to make Krone a good striker.
01:32:55.000I want to make him comfortable to in and out.
01:32:58.000I want to make very comfortable to fight inside with knees and elbows, you know, be dangerous inside, be comfortable on top, and be very comfortable on the bottom.
01:35:22.000But it all started off when I was on this quest to put together the ultimate guard for MMA. Because I was seeing too many guys just get beat up in the guard.
01:35:45.000Attempt to improve the guard in MMA. So I looked at you and I looked at Hanzo and I go, what are they doing?
01:35:51.000They're in full guard and they're holding the overhook to prevent the punch.
01:35:55.000Like anybody try to punch in the guard with their right arm, you would overhook it and when headbutts were legal, your left hand was like this.
01:36:02.000You were like this, protecting the headbutt.
01:36:05.000But then when they made headbutts legal, you don't have to do this no more.
01:36:34.000But Jiu Jitsu is an animal that has never stopped to grow.
01:36:39.000And one day I was comfortably in California watching a fight in Brazil and then I saw an eight men tournament where Fabio Gurgel was fighting Mark Kerr and Mark Kerr was the first time I saw him fighting.
01:37:46.000Put him lay down and I try to represent the same position because the size weight is almost the same from Fabio Gurgel to Marquer than me for Rochson.
01:37:57.000So I kind of immediately put him in Fabio's position and I put myself in Marquer position and then I start to analyze his position and say, Rochson, Do this, do that.
01:38:14.000So we're not fighting, but I try to find him a position for him to be comfortable.
01:38:21.000And I spend about 45-50 minutes searching, studying with him because I like that kind of unproportional size.
01:38:30.000When I finish that section, I reinvent myself in terms of what I'm going to do if I have to fight Marquer tomorrow.
01:38:42.000Because I was satisfied with the angles I could put hocks on in order to resist my leverage, my angles, what exactly I saw in the day before.
01:38:54.000So that means, from one day to another, I kind of...
01:38:58.000Focus myself and fix the problem I saw with Fabio.
01:39:02.000And at that point, I felt like, okay, I'm fixed now.
01:39:05.000I'm ready to fight Fabio Ruggiero tomorrow.
01:39:26.000He has to use the knee on the chest sometimes.
01:39:28.000He has to use the element of, as I approach to getting better position, the bottom guy has to hit because if you don't strike, you don't make the guy kind of go back.
01:39:41.000So it's a combination between fighting.
01:39:46.000In Brazil, we have two different names.
01:41:40.000You know, as a fan, as a fan of jiu-jitsu and a fan of mixed martial arts and Valley Tudor, man, I just wish you had had those opportunities to face those guys.
01:41:50.000Now, like I said, when I was trying to figure out the best MMA guard, I was looking at you, I was looking at Hickson, grabbing the overhook, but the one thing I knew is...
01:42:02.000If that's the defensive posture, this is what I was thinking.
01:42:05.000I didn't know you changed it up, but at that point, I thought that was it.
01:42:17.000Do we create offense from that stance?
01:42:19.000So the defense is first, and do we have offense from the overhook?
01:42:22.000And my instructor, Jean-Jacques Machado, he is one of the only guys I know of, out of all the top jiu-jitsu guys, that his whole game is based on the overhook and not grabbing the sleeves because his left hand, he was born without fingers.
01:42:36.000So no matter what, whether it was gi or no gi, he needed that overhook because he couldn't control the sleeves.
01:42:43.000So his overhook game was translated to his students, me included.
01:42:47.000So I was always looking for the overhook because Jean-Jacques was my master.
01:42:51.000And then when he got invited to Abu Dhabi, before he went to Abu Dhabi, there was a lot of legends there, a lot of jiu-jitsu legends that were going to Abu Dhabi.
01:43:01.000And without the gi, there was no offense.
01:43:11.000If you watch what Jean-Jacques did in Abu Dhabi, his left arm didn't change without a gi.
01:43:16.000He's like, no, gi, I'm still going to grab that overhook anyways.
01:43:19.000Everybody else was lost because they were used to their fighting stance.
01:43:22.000Their guard fighting stance was sleeve, collar, collar, sleeve.
01:43:25.000So without the gi, they had to change everything and they weren't used to it.
01:43:28.000They didn't have any offense from there.
01:43:30.000So to me, I took what you and Henzo were doing with the overhook and the controlling, but that's how Jean-Jacques fights with the overhook.
01:43:37.000So all his sweeps, Jean-Jacques, look at all his sweeps in Abu Dhabi.
01:44:10.000For Jean-Jacques, that overhook is important for grappling, not even for Valetudo.
01:44:16.000So if he did Valetudo, or someone with that style guard did Valetudo, the overhook game...
01:44:22.000Automatically takes away the punch and he has offense from that style too.
01:44:26.000So for me that became the basis and the focus for the ultimate MMA guard was to master the overhook like Jean-Jacques.
01:44:35.000Not only just defend, but put those butterflies in and try to sweep or set up triangles.
01:44:40.000Like you have an overhook, you sweep, he bases, you grab that wrist, boom, triangle.
01:44:45.000I thought that was based on what you and Hanzo did and Jean-Jacques style because it was like a blessing in disguise, him born without fingers.
01:44:59.000Everybody looks at Jean-Jacques as Yoda.
01:45:01.000Like, how did you come into Abu Dhabi and finish everybody?
01:45:04.000To me, it was just that overhook game.
01:45:07.000He didn't really have to change much of his game.
01:45:09.000So that's how Marcelo Garcia, that's his philosophy too.
01:45:11.000His philosophy is, and he said this in interviews, that If you can't do it, if there's a gi technique that you can't do no gi, throw it out.
01:45:20.000Only focus on the techniques that are going to translate to no gi.
01:45:25.000So that way, when you're practicing the gi, you're actually practicing no gi as well.
01:45:29.000So Marcello is very against being reliant too much on the collar and too much on the sleeve.
01:45:35.000He stays away from that because even takedowns, he doesn't want to do judo takedowns because no gi, they're not going to work as much.
01:45:43.000Take down in the gi that translate no gi.
01:45:47.000So that's just the conclusions that I came to.
01:45:53.000That's how I train my fighters that are fighting in MMA. And it all started with watching you and Henzo.
01:45:58.000Yes, I completely feel like that's a good standard position because you have to have a control and stuff.
01:46:07.000But the evolutionary process brought other kinds of guards, you know?
01:46:11.000And I can also find my comfortable those days and show.
01:46:20.000A more spacey guard, more like towards my father's guard was because he was a very weak guy, always handled big guys, and he don't have like this kind of strength or control over his opponents.
01:46:33.000So he was more like hip movements and using the ankles, using the foot, you know, it's more like a very lethal from the bottom, allowing the guy to get lost.
01:46:44.000So it's a combination between the two.
01:46:47.000I think today's is the perfect option.
01:46:50.000Why do you think Ronda Rousey is the only fighter in MMA today that when she's pulling off...
01:49:41.000Oh, that's interesting because, you know, she will have the preparation, the mindset, the heavy hands, and also the skill to become a competitor for Honda,
01:52:51.000It's not a flake, or it's not a luck, or it's not, oh, you learn, come here, let me show you how to defend the arm lock, and now you go, you're ready to fight.
01:53:01.000So, anyone in the mixed martial arts coming from a background, because they see mixed martial arts as a good exposure, as a good situation to make money, to make...
01:53:12.000So, they come in with an average background to try, you know, their best.
01:53:19.000They sometimes have it from the wrestling family and then learn some box, some jiu-jitsu, some defense and go.
01:53:27.000They come from the jiu-jitsu and go and learn a little bit here and there.
01:53:32.000But very few are like Randy Couture, which is already an established champion, like Coleman.
01:53:46.000Guys who have defined their lives in one thing, and then they breed to another, but they have already the sense of, you know, they believe in themselves, they can capitalize on the mistakes, they forward forever, so...
01:54:01.000Those things, you know, you don't buy it on the...
01:54:05.000Those things is lifetime experience and it's hard to...
01:54:08.000Yeah, the intensity that Ronda Rousey brings to training, just to life itself, is very difficult to replicate and that it has, it resonates throughout everything she does.
01:56:41.000But still, the opportunity was raised based on his desire to act.
01:56:50.000So we forced him to act, he gave what we want, and Kron Ketch precisely and sharp and it was over.
01:56:57.000Every morning, every time I work out and go to the gym, I warm up on the Stairmaster and I just go ADCC Marcelo Garcia or whoever.
01:57:07.000And I just want to warm up and watch people do Jiu Jitsu at a high level and that just gets my blood boiling.
01:57:12.000I just want to go lift weights, right?
01:57:14.000I'm watching Marcelo and Krohn, and man, recently, and I haven't watched it in a while, but man, I'm so used to Marcelo just going through everybody.
01:57:33.000People go to his gym, he's like, hey, you can come to my gym, I'll roll with you, but we're going to videotape it and we're going to put it on the internet.
01:58:34.000He said, oh, it was tough, you know, I almost passed out, and then, but Krohn, because he was going in the end of the mat, the first, like, the round, he was trying to save himself for the next round, so he put pressure,
01:58:50.000and then he kind of said that, I kind of just tried to hold instead, keep putting all my power, so, and then, I mean, nothing happened, and The guy kind of survived and he kind of won.
02:03:23.000And eventually, like with 90 minutes or so, he get minus points.
02:03:29.000And that's what's exactly what generates him to say, okay, now I'm running behind, so I have to make it happen.
02:03:36.000And as we're talking afterwards with Krohn, Krohn said, Dad, when I started talking like a chicken, I felt like he won't explode.
02:03:43.000I don't want to make a mistake, wasting the opportunity, but I know he will come, so I was just ready for it.
02:03:49.000So we're kind of working together, you know?
02:03:59.000That's the one thing Jean-Jacques would tell me.
02:04:03.000Jean-Jacques obviously trained me for Metamorris and we would talk about Krohn and Jean-Jacques said, I asked Jean-Jacques what is Krohn's best technique?
02:04:12.000He goes, man that guillotine He wraps his arms around your head.
02:06:20.000So, based on the weight distribution, based on the sense of leverage, all this can change.
02:06:28.000The same position you see in a picture cannot be worth it or can be very much effective depending how the grip, the angle, the elbow, the weight.
02:06:37.000So, it's amazing how the invisible jiu-jitsu is It's not what you learn superficially.
02:06:45.000What do you think about Marcelo Garcia's variation of the guillotine?
02:06:49.000Some people call it a high elbow guillotine.
02:06:51.000A lot of people call it the Marcelo team.
02:07:25.000If you make one mistake, if you're thinking about defense one and the guy coming with a little twist, the defense one is not going to work.
02:07:31.000And if you think about change for the second, you're already tapping or you're already slipping.
02:07:56.000You know, including all the arm and chokes, like the darts and the Japanese necktie, the arm and guillotine, the different grips, all these different neck cranks.
02:08:53.000It's like you have an overhook and you come and you squeeze that one.
02:08:56.000That's become just one of the most basic standard chokes.
02:09:01.000And it came sort of from a wrestling three-quarter Nelson technique that was used to flip people over.
02:09:09.000And then I think it was Dave Terrell...
02:09:12.000Showed it to Joe Darcy, and then Mark Lehman started calling it Joe Darcy because he learned from Joe Darcy, but he actually, I don't know, John Danaher, there's a whole story, but the name stuck to Darcy.
02:09:24.000Was that something that you guys were doing back in the 70s and 80s?
02:09:33.000The origins of the triangle, like just the leg triangle, there's so many different theories on how that got injected into heliostyle.
02:09:44.000Do you know the origins of a triangle, or is it just an old judo technique?
02:09:48.000No, I mean, if you go in an old book, techniques, you're going to see all the submissions, you know, like...
02:09:54.000The application of triangles in my life starts to come by understanding the concept and seeing longer guys like macarons, guys with long legs.
02:10:53.000So anything I see, no matter if it's from Bruce Lee or from any wrestler or Catch Catch Con, if I see and I like it, I'm going to go and experiment immediately because I just add to my arsenal.
02:12:03.000Oh, just when I finished the Valetudo 95, it was a legit eight-man tournament, and I won.
02:12:13.000It started, like the WWF, like the UFO in Japan was very strong with pro wrestling, like big magazines, like a huge Japanese love pro wrestling.
02:12:27.000So, and then based on that kind of exposure of this new event, The champion of the wrestling association, one of the champions of the UFO, called Takada, starts talking.
02:12:46.000And at this point, I'm back to LA. Maybe after two or three months of this kind of talking around my name forever, some guy, one of the friends I have in Japan, they come and say, Mr. Gracie, They're talking a lot about you,
02:13:01.000and you should have an official answer for that.
02:13:20.000If you want to come and fight in my event, like...
02:13:25.000Not mine, but the event I fought in the Japan Open.
02:13:29.000He was welcome to come and we want to face each other for sure.
02:13:32.000If in other cases, we can fight even on the street.
02:13:36.000But I'm not there to fight on his event because that will jeopardize my real fighter status.
02:13:43.000So with this being said, maybe a few weeks later, Takada went out of the gossip and then Anjo showed up in the magazine and started saying he will come into LA to beat me up.
02:14:00.000He will do this because he said, oh, he's going to fight for free, so I'm going to dare to fight, to kick.
02:14:06.000And then the guy came and said, hey, Mr. Angel said he's coming, he said this.
02:14:10.000I said, man, I cannot lose my sleep based on just speculations.
02:14:16.000He said when he came, no, he didn't say, okay, so I'm going to keep my life.
02:14:23.000So the past maybe couple of weeks or so, even more, one day I was at home in the morning, My assistant at the school called me and said, Hickson, some guys here, some Japanese guys are here waiting for you, want to talk to you.
02:14:36.000And immediately I figured out could be that situation.
02:16:10.000So as Anjo came in with an ugly face and attitude and stuff, I immediately asked my instructor, said, Limão, grab the waiver and tell him to sign.
02:16:21.000It's like if I get hurt, whatever, those waivers.
02:16:26.000So he looked at the waiver with an ugly face and then spoke with his guy in Japanese.
02:16:33.000And then the Japanese guy said, Mr. Gracie, You mean, if he don't sign, you don't fight?
02:16:42.000Immediately, I felt like, if I say, yeah, he has to sign, they may leave, and they're going to come in with all the excuses.
02:19:02.000And then I get my assistant, my Japanese guy who's working with me in the Valetudo 95, and I said, listen, Yuri, you take this tape, you go to Japan, Make a press conference.
02:19:36.000And, you know, it's just a big step for me in the publicity, because I capitalized on all the wrestling publicity, which is national in Japan.
02:19:45.000So, and then my next fight eventually was with Takada.
02:19:49.000He accepted the fight and made an official fight, and then we created the Pride.
02:19:53.000I help in the formulation of the rules.
02:19:57.000You were a big part of the original Pride.
02:19:59.000Yeah, they asked me if I want to fight Takada and for that they want to create a new event.
02:20:04.000I said yes, I fight him and then we discussed numbers and in order to make a good rule I help in the rules because, you know, I introduce the gloves and the mixed martial arts.
02:20:18.000We have to put gloves because without gloves it can be too bloody.
02:20:23.000So I make like a draw of The backbone of what could be.
02:20:28.000And then from that, they start the Pride.
02:20:31.000I fought the Pride 1, the Pride 4, and then the Pride becomes like huge in Japan.
02:20:36.000And then because they have a little involvement with the Yakuza, the sponsors they have, Fuji TV, like pull it off, and they're getting problems to the payroll, which is huge.
02:20:48.000They have maybe 50 top athletes making a lot of money.
02:21:26.000The people that were running Pride were starting another organization while they were working for the UFC. So they were working for the UFC, running the Pride offices for the UFC in Japan, but then they were running their other organizations.
02:21:38.000Oh, fleeting interests without knowing, with disregard of everything.
02:21:44.000There's a classic match, or not a match, fight that's on video, it might be on YouTube, with Hugo Duarte, old Luta Libre guy on the beach where you guys are fighting.
02:22:27.000But anyway, it was a great time because at this point Marco Rua was just finishing fight Fernando Pinduca in an event after my second fight of Zulu in Rio.
02:22:44.000The jiu-jitsu community has a little friction with the luta-livre community.
02:22:50.000So they set up a fight between Marcelo Bering against Fabio Molina, Renan against Eugenio Tadeo, and then Pinduca against Marco Rua.
02:23:51.000My father, myself, Marcelo and Sergio, my best friend, we went to his school in the night time.
02:23:59.000He had maybe 50 guys training, all without gear, they're all tough, they all have a lot of pumping, a lot of iron, so they're all big guys, you know?
02:24:09.000So I went to his place, said, Ruaz, I'd like to talk to you.
02:24:13.000So he came in to me, I said, hey man, I heard you.
02:24:16.000You're showing desire to fight me, so I like to fight you anytime you want, regardless.
02:25:07.000If somebody wants to fight Higgs, let's make a list.
02:25:10.000And then eventually, you guys can fight.
02:25:13.000And then Hugo from the back, yeah, you can put my name on that list.
02:25:18.000And first time I saw Hugo in my life, and I look at him and said, yeah, man, you tell me...
02:25:23.000This is not a, because it has a game, a gambling in Brazil, like a popular game, not official, but unofficial game called Jogo do Bicho, means game of the animals.
02:25:33.000You put a name, a number, like 24 is the deer.
02:25:38.000So a guy put $1, and if he wins, he gets maybe $50, something very popular, in every corner has this kind of underground game.
02:25:47.000And I said to him, this is not a game of animals, man.
02:27:34.000And then I saw a friend of mine who's always in the gossip, said, hey, and as I leaving home, I said, I think I'm going to postpone Hugo's fight for the following week.
02:27:43.000I don't think it's going to be a good idea because, man, I'm just too much party.
02:27:51.000When I get on the street, man, the first guy I saw, it was this, my friend, Bauru, who's just coming and said, man, you should see, oh, everybody's prepared, everybody talking about the fight will be great, they're all waiting, they all will be there.
02:28:05.000And I say, oh my God, no postponement anymore.
02:28:12.000So as I approach the weekend, I try to just recover, sleep, eat well, but still, like, not enough.
02:28:19.000Anyway, Saturday morning, we're all gathering in the Gracie Barra Academy, which is close to the neighborhood, and we're gathering, like, the students, because we have to have a team to To be there,
02:31:49.000And as I approach the school, because they're coming from a different neighborhood walking, and one of the guys, like Eugenio Tadeu, was a black guy who lives in a ghetto.
02:32:04.000As they approach, they come in walking maybe three or four miles, you know, something like that, a different neighborhood.
02:32:13.000So as they come in, like, it's not only fighters, it's bad guys, guys with like all the eyes, I mean, only the uncovered eyes with...
02:32:23.000With guns, with knives, with bottle break.
02:32:25.000So it's a lot of convulsions, a lot of energy, bad energy, not coming from a real fight situation, but it's more like a street dangerous.
02:32:34.000So as I approach and I'm coming through the crowd, which is already controlling maybe two-thirds of the street, which is passing cars, just could not pass in cars anymore, just like, just the car passing a very fine line.
02:32:48.000It's a big crowd in front of the school.
02:32:50.000So I went through with the bike, When I come up to the school, he's already coming down with my father, the new son, which is his instructor, other guys, they're coming down.
02:33:01.000And we kind of crush each other in the middle of the stairs.
02:33:06.000I said, okay, man, let's go down, let's talk.
02:33:08.000So we went down to the parking lot and like crowded, maybe 20 guys from my school.
02:33:16.000One guy has a weapon, but the other guys maybe five or six, ten guns and knives.
02:33:22.000I mean, it's a bad, bad weather, you know?
02:33:25.000So before I start the fight, I said, Hugo, I'd like to talk to you.
02:34:31.000And I felt, when we start, I felt like his mentor or whatever, supposed to say to him, hey man, the first fight last week, you engage too quickly, you give the grappling too quickly, you should punch him in the face.
02:34:44.000So I felt a completely different animal because he was already trying to, by his approach, his position, the way he moves, I felt like he wants to punch me.
02:38:09.000So I wanted to ask you something about what's going on today in MMA. There's like Nick Diaz and there's been a bunch of guys that have been suspended and fined for having cannabis in their system.
02:38:23.000And there's big controversy because in a lot of states, now it's 23 states in the United States where it's legal now.
02:38:29.000So how do you feel about banning cannabis as a performance enhancer?
02:39:07.000You know, I think that kind of judgment goes from person to person.
02:39:13.000You know, some people can have a little bit of some drug and get a reaction which can make him crazy or can make him addicted or can make him...
02:39:23.000So the chemical in the brain can respond differently.
02:40:02.000You know, it has to be respected, has to be, you know, whatever.
02:40:06.000But what's the rules for MMA? I mean, I try to input in the jiu-jitsu the anti-doping, you know, because you see guys in the same way division, but one guy has 10 times more endurance, 10 times more power, 10 times whatever.
02:40:21.000So the guy, you know, has addictive, like he has an extra enhancement.
02:40:29.000So, we have to balance this in order to make a fair sport.
02:40:34.000How much the cannabis affects the athlete, I'm not sure.
02:40:39.000But I know others like steroids or hormones, those are proving.
02:40:44.000So, whatever is being proved against using the cannabis for...
02:40:51.000Fighting for sports activities if it's proved this kind of support of I mean the drug use can be enhancing some maybe we cut I don't know it's up to the real problem is it's it's there they're testing people for something that stays in your body for a long time after it's psychoactive so if you took cannabis like a week before your fight I You're not going to be high when you're fighting,
02:41:14.000but it's still going to be in your system, so you're still going to be penalized for something that has nothing to do with it.
02:43:13.000So you have to have 300% more marijuana in your system.
02:43:16.000Well, that's a step in the right direction, I think.
02:43:19.000Now, as far as performance enhancing, surfing is a serious sport that requires serious technique, lots of hours.
02:43:27.000And generally, you hear that surfers will be under the influence of cannabis while they're surfing.
02:43:38.000Wouldn't it, if it makes your reflexes, some people believe that it dulls your reflexes, how can surfers Be under the influence of cannabis and ride a 25-foot wave.
02:47:25.000You have to have the focus, the strategy, and even when the problem rises, you have to be in control.
02:47:33.000What do you do with your time these days?
02:47:34.000What's a typical day for Hicks and Gracie?
02:47:38.000Right now, I'm back to teaching Krohn's place because I wanted to have him more distressed with how the academy goes.
02:47:48.000So I picked two times a week to teach there, giving self-defense classes.
02:47:54.000At this point, before that, I was doing seminars once a month, at the most once, twice every couple of months.
02:48:05.000To make my living and also because I feel like the best things in life, money cannot buy.
02:48:12.000And I feel like the quality of my meals, the way I eat, the way my relationship, my sleep, those are very, very valuable assets, you know, plus the time I have to do things I love to do.
02:48:27.000That's kind of when I feel like I'm happy enough to be my best at service, because I always try to be at service, helping somebody with jiu-jitsu, with knowledge, with nutrition, with breathing.
02:48:42.000It's not about the price, it's about the service.
02:48:45.000And then I put my head and said, yeah, I have a nice day, I make a good speech with Joe Hogan, I have a nice talk with Ed Bravo, it was a great day.
02:48:56.000So somehow, in a purpose for the Federation, so I always try to be positive, but I have no schedule fixed like I have to wake up, go to, no.
02:49:06.000Because at this point, I create a lifestyle which makes me feel good to engage in different elements like this Federation now and having classes on Crohn's and be here, to be full of energy,
02:49:22.000you know, because Sometimes you don't notice, but based on your commitments, your obligation, you're becoming more like a robot and you lose the perspective of what you need to be at your best.
02:49:39.000And if you lose that perspective, even though you're still doing your routine, sometimes you're just minus.
02:49:45.000You're just 80, 70, 60% of what you should be.
02:49:49.000So you're not going to be the best husband, you're not going to be the best father, the best employer, the best employee.
02:50:34.000I dream like I make a very space for the biggest dream I can dream.
02:50:39.000And I see that level of need for the community and the level of Of position I have to be the reference for that shift in the direction of our culture and our knowledge,
02:50:56.000I feel like I could not be more motivated, more happy to engage on this.
02:51:04.000Just do your best and be excited, be motivated to the next day.
02:51:10.000There's such a refreshing attitude, your attitude, your philosophy on life.
02:51:14.000Because I think it's very easy, and I've trapped myself in it sometimes, where you concentrate too much on making money, concentrate too much on being ambitious, and you forget the quality of life.
02:51:25.000Your focus is almost entirely on your quality of life.
02:52:08.000So that's a very essential thing which sometimes slips through people's fingers and the priorities and the daily payments.
02:52:19.000So I put you in a role where I feel like If you tell me in the past, what's the courage, what's the opposite of courage, I'm going to say cowardness.
02:52:32.000Because either you're tough enough to challenge and to fight, or then you're a coward and you chicken out.
02:52:38.000So that, in the past, was like the opposite of courage.
02:52:45.000It's very hard to measure this in those days.
02:52:48.000And I believe the opposite of courage today is conformity.
02:52:53.000Oh, I don't like my wife the way I used to like, but I'm never going to divorce because I'm afraid to lose my house.
02:53:00.000Or the situation is so established, so I don't like this job, but I'm going to keep here because it's better than his.
02:53:06.000So, in other hands, if you get caught on that kind of compromise to maintain because you're afraid to risk, Let's keep you like one step behind from follow your heart, follow your ambition.
02:53:20.000If you're 18 years old, you don't think twice.
02:53:22.000The guy says, hey, let's go to Australia.
02:54:05.000One of them is at the day of my fight I wake up and I thank you God to be alive and I Acknowledge how perfect it will be that day if I die today.
02:54:16.000Say, fuck, it was going to be a perfect day if I die.
02:54:19.000Because I have, you know, I accomplished my thing.
02:56:15.000And anything we could do to help your association, I'm 100% Committed to making the state of jiu-jitsu better, improving on what is going on.