This is an old fight that was supposed to be a pro wrestling match, but it turned into a full on MMA match. This is a fight you don't want to miss! Eddie's brother, Eddie Bravo, joins us to talk about it and we talk about how crazy it is. We also talk about the fact that Eddie almost got knocked out of the fight and how the referee couldn't tell if it was fake or not. It's a crazy fight and it's a good one. We hope you enjoy this fight and that it doesn't suck as bad as it does for Eddie and Eddie's chances of getting back in the ring with Rikido-zan in the future. If you like what you hear, please HIT SUBSCRIBE and leave us a rating and review on Apple Podcasts and we'll read out your comments and thoughts on the next episode. Thank you so much for listening and supporting the podcast. Love ya! -Eddie & the crew. XOXO, EJ & the boys. -P.S. Thank you for all the support you all have shown so far. We really appreciate all the love, support, support and support, and stay tuned for the rest of the episodes. We'll see you next week! XO. -The boys. Love ya. -Eugene & the Crew. -Jon & the guys. Jon & The Crew. CHEERS! -Jon and the Crew -Sue and the crew at The Jerks. Cheers! -Bobby & the Jerks! - EJ and the boys! -A.A. . . -Jon, E. & the team. -J. & Co. -D. & Jon & the gang. -BJ. -RJ. and the guys at The Underground Project. -S. & J.J.Y. & R.E. & D.B. & EJ. ( ) . Jon and the rest. -AJ.& R. & A.J.. -B.& D. -M. & B. & JB. -C. & C.A.. & E.M. - B. & S. & K. & M. & P. & T. & G.J -JG. -PJ. . .E.
00:00:02.000This is a very special podcast, a very special Saturday afternoon podcast.
00:00:06.000We're watching an old fight from 1954 that's supposed to be a pro wrestling match with Gary Tonin, one of the best jiu-jitsu artists in America today, one of the hot young fucking killers of grappling, and of course my brother Eddie Bravo.
00:03:53.000We were talking about this before the podcast started, that it's so cool that shit like this exists, and we can watch some, like, historical moments in martial arts.
00:05:01.000That was one of the most brutal ass kickings ever, of all time, caught on video.
00:05:06.000And there's another dude who posted something.
00:05:08.000His name is P-O-L-O-N-I-S-T-A. Polonista, I guess you would say it.
00:05:14.000And he wrote a whole breakdown of what happened.
00:05:17.000And apparently this Rakita Zahn guy...
00:05:19.000You know, Kimura was saying that Rakitozan, that he got taken for greed and the money and the fame, he lost his mind and just started beating the fuck out of the dude.
00:05:29.000And so, apparently, they stabbed him with a urine-soaked knife.
00:05:48.000Well, you know they do those poop things where they take poop and they transmit fecal matter, they transplant it to someone's intestinal tract and apparently it's supposed to be good for your body to get that bacteria, like somebody else's bacteria in your body through a fecal transplant.
00:09:42.000The rap world, holy shit, if you're in that rap music world, the more famous you get, it's like in China, the more famous you get in China, the triads take over, you know what I mean?
00:18:26.000If someone was telling a story about some racist white guy who said the N-word to a black guy and then a black guy hit him or something, can you tell that story and use that word?
00:18:35.000Or do you have to say N-word again when describing the story?
00:22:21.000He's actually very talented, but there's no way that guy's going to make it through the teens, and now he's 21, 22. But how are you going to get there through all that and not be a douchebag?
00:23:46.000They were attracted to the barbarian and the fucking wild savage, but then now that they got him, they're like, damn, I wish he wasn't such a fucking savage, because other bitches like that, too.
00:23:55.000So then they end up hating that shit, right?
00:24:13.000I think we're still stuck with the echoes of some ancient DNA. I think we still have, for whatever reason, we still have all the instincts that people had back when you had to worry about, like...
00:24:26.000Marauding hordes coming over the top of the hill with swords and knives.
00:24:30.000Like, you had to be kind of an asshole back then.
00:24:58.000And by the time we were in our 20s, way before we had kids, those people back in the day, like where all our DNA came from, they were on their way out the door.
00:25:07.000They not only had kids, they were getting old.
00:25:10.000They were going to be dead by the time they were in their 30s.
00:25:15.000So that crazy, the reason why we're here is because of the same reason why women would like a guy that's aggressive or an asshole because she thinks that guy could protect her.
00:25:25.000It's this bizarre fucking trick that nature's played on us.
00:25:28.000Thousands of years of evolution, technologically and historically and how much information we have and the way we can communicate with each other still doesn't work.
00:25:37.000Still doesn't totally stop that monkey fuck gene that's still deep down in the back, because chicks want some guy who can defend the castle.
00:26:22.000Yeah, I actually don't train there for the technique at all.
00:26:24.000It's just for the stories that he tells us.
00:26:27.000So you were saying before the podcast that Danaher, you went to Danaher's to get a private or something like that at first or to train with them and then he introduced you to his leg lock system.
00:26:39.000Oh, yeah, I mean, just when we started, when I started training with John, you know, at first it was just on an inconsistent basis, like once a week or so, you know, a lot of MMA fighters come to like a Monday afternoon class, so I was going in there, and that was when I was in college, so I didn't have time to like go over.
00:26:56.000But once I started coming there consistently, I got a chance to see the strategy that he teaches.
00:27:03.000Leg locks aren't his main focus, but I think he's made huge innovations in the leg lock game to the point where when he teaches it, it seems like that's his main thing.
00:27:13.000It definitely went over our whole leg lock game, me and Eddie Cummings.
00:27:20.000Both of our leg lock games just stem from that for sure.
00:30:09.000I think that the only reason why jujitsu and submission grappling, the way you're doing it on your show, the only reason why that's not on television, is just people aren't, they're not accustomed to it.
00:30:19.000Like, you're accustomed to having golf on TV. So you sit there and watch golf.
00:30:22.000Or you're accustomed to having cricket in some parts of the world.
00:33:01.000My point being, if Jiu Jitsu was on TV, if they got to see some wild matches, like, especially, one of the things I'd appreciate about watching your match, I got exposed to you by Eddie, the first one I saw was you and Krohn.
00:35:34.000And Gary, of course, he was going to be in sub only and Scotty on the mat was involved and he said, my boy Gary, you got to put him in.
00:35:41.000And by that time, BJJ Kumite was out and I remembered who he was.
00:35:46.000That was the guy, that Scotty Nelson's boy.
00:35:49.000So then, went to Abu Dhabi, 2013, and I remember the first time we met there, we were at the hotel lobby, and I still didn't know who you were, and I came up, and I came up, and I was like, hey guys!
00:36:02.000I didn't know who he was, and then I go, oh shit, you're Gary!
00:40:26.000There's guys that stand out, in my mind.
00:40:29.000There's always going to be Marcelo Garcia and Hickson in his prime.
00:40:31.000There's always going to be these guys that stand out.
00:40:33.000But the guys that today, it seems like if you wanted to get into jiu-jitsu and watch Submission Grappling like the EBI tomorrow, there's no better time.
00:40:43.000And every day, I got a bunch of jiu-jitsu nerds in my association, in my home school.
00:40:48.000Every time I see a cool clip of a new transition that Jeff Gleason I thought I was the only one.
00:41:17.000I thought I was going to be able to steal a move.
00:41:18.000Well, that's a beautiful thing about jujitsu that's misunderstood.
00:41:21.000A lot of people think that it has to do with strength and aggression.
00:41:25.000You know, you think of it as being like this thing, but so many of the guys that do it, they are like, if they weren't doing this, they would be building computers or something.
00:41:37.000How we could actually dedicate this time to something that people actually care about and we could actually make money or something.
00:41:44.000But yeah, that's definitely more the mindset for most of them.
00:41:48.000There are those muscle head type guys still in the sport.
00:41:50.000There's a few of those for sure, but guys like you, the thoughtful, intelligent guys, seem to always rise to the top.
00:41:56.000They figure out how to always have the best answer to whatever problems in front of them.
00:42:03.000Yeah, that's what we're really looking for.
00:42:04.000I mean, that's the theory that I try to, you know, pass on to my students and stuff.
00:42:08.000You know, as opposed to, like, I tell it at seminars all the time.
00:42:11.000I'm like, guys, if you're ever doing a move, and you're just like, this isn't working, the reason is probably not because you're not pushing harder, or you need to go faster.
00:43:56.000And the safe ones are the best ones, right?
00:43:58.000I think the compliment to that though is like, so you look at that and I've seen people do it, people that used to be on our team, they would look at these guys, what are the top guys doing, focus on that, but you focus too much on it.
00:44:10.000Those top guys, let's take like the Mendez brothers for instance, with like Barambolo, right?
00:44:16.000These guys are doing a move that they've perfected, right?
00:44:19.000So sure, I could study what they're doing and learn what they're doing, but am I going to be able to make the same headway that they have with that move?
00:44:47.000Not so much what you see other people doing.
00:44:49.000If you're constantly just trying to do what other people are doing, you're going to get caught up in that game and they'll always find a way to submit you.
00:45:14.000Anytime a new student comes to me and you see them developing a move, even if it's a move that I suck at, I'm like, that's your move right there.
00:46:07.000Have a constant introduction of new stuff in your game that'll pay back later, maybe 10 years down the road, 15 years down the road, where maybe it's not your game now, but it will be after a while.
00:46:18.000You're like, I'm killing it with this.
00:46:18.000Yeah, you definitely need to take all those elements from the good guys, from what they do, for sure.
00:46:22.000There's really no other martial art like that, right?
00:46:27.000It's like a five-dimensional martial art.
00:46:30.000Yeah, I mean, it just keeps getting better and better over the years, like Joe was saying before, you know?
00:46:35.000The progression of jujitsu in general and the level of it is just going up and up and I think the biggest innovations that are happening now Are probably in the leg lock game, to be honest.
00:46:44.000I think that's like the next new frontier for jiu-jitsu.
00:46:46.000You and Eddie Cummings are a big part of that.
00:46:50.000Since they won a 10th planet, I've never outlawed heel hooks or reaping.
00:46:56.000I just never wanted to get heavy on heel hooks because I wanted to train my fighters for MMA. I didn't want their first habit to go to heel hooks because it's a little dangerous when the highest-time guys are telling me...
00:47:08.000When the leg lock school guys are telling me, Manny, Carl, Karin, oh bro, bro, MMA, leg locks, last resort, you don't want to give up position.
00:47:46.000And then at the Grappler's Quest Ultimate Absolute or Ultimate whatever, Submission only, I get those mixed up.
00:47:52.000It was you and Nathan Orchard at the end of that 16-man bracket, another one of my black belts, and you got him with the inside heel hook again.
00:47:59.000From that point, Nathan decided, you know what, he started studying everything you were doing, and we, to me, I never got deep into them.
00:48:09.000I got a good crippler or a game over, whatever people call it.
00:48:33.000Because people think rubber guard is just reaching up and grabbing your legs and holding on and throwing up an arm bar.
00:48:39.000They don't realize there's a system, there's all these positions, there's a path.
00:48:42.000I didn't realize it was the exact same thing for leg locks.
00:48:45.000When I first started training leg locks, I walked in and Eddie had already made a lot of headway in the leg lock game and obviously John had been teaching him.
00:48:54.000You know, when I first came in, my intentions were, you know, I was preparing for ADCC. So my intentions were like, alright, I want to know a little bit about this leg lock game.
00:49:01.000I'm going to be competing in a tournament where heel hooks are illegal, which I don't usually do.
00:49:05.000You know, I want to be ready for this.
00:49:06.000You know, I'm ready for whatever people are going to throw at me.
00:49:08.000I'm just going to learn how to do it well enough that I can defend it.
00:49:11.000And then I learned that it's like a whole different martial art.
00:49:14.000Like just the leg locks, you know, adding the leg locks.
00:49:17.000I'm like, one day I asked John because I'm so frustrated I'm not passing Eddie's guard because he just keeps leg locking me.
00:49:22.000And I'm like, so, you know, when a guy's good at leg locks, how do you pass the guard?
00:49:25.000He's like, fucking learn leg locks, dude.
00:49:28.000So you gotta learn how to do what he's doing so that you know the counters and everything.
00:49:33.000I realized I had to spend time on it, you know, as opposed to just like dismissing it as like a small part When you see someone when you see someone dismiss him in MMA like the highest on guy saying don't do it because it's a last resort But then you see a guy like I was gonna say that one today leg locks in MMA. What do you think?
00:49:52.000I just think there needs to be, there's a few guys that are using them well, and I just, I think that, you know, there's just not enough people out there that are confident enough in them and have done enough technical research to make them, you know, useful, you know?
00:50:43.000I hear, one of my first, my first MMA fighter was, he was rubber guard, twister, he was like, I created this guy, but he also had a leg lock game.
00:51:35.000I mean, he willingly went into his half guard.
00:51:38.000He willingly went to the ground with him.
00:51:40.000That's the biggest mistake people make.
00:51:41.000And he defended every single step of the way and then beat him down and stopped him.
00:51:45.000I think at the high level, that's what it looks like.
00:51:47.000I think if the guy is kind of shaky about leg locks and he doesn't have leg lock defense in his DNA, he's going to get caught.
00:51:55.000Alan spent two months solid with Dean Lister, flew him in, Davi Ramos, who's a mini Pajaris leglock.
00:52:02.000And he said the first two weeks, he just got leglocked all day.
00:52:05.000And after a while, you learn how to slow it down, and then you get tapped, and you slow it down, and then you get tapped, and you slow it down, and then you start attacking.
00:52:15.000So I think maybe with the leglock game, if everybody got really good at the defense, That, yes, you can get in these leg lock positions and avoid getting hit, because I think the saddle and the hunting, I think it's pretty safe, right?
00:52:32.000But if the guy defends it, and is comfortable defending it, and then can sit up in a certain spot and sprawl out on you, then it could be trouble.
00:52:41.000I'm rooting for leg locks in MMA. Trust me.
00:52:57.000Will be the future of, or part of the future, of grappling in MMA. Well, you know, we always have this conception about this idea of it because of Frank Mir versus Ian Freeman.
00:53:06.000I mean, that's like cemented in people's heads.
00:53:08.000Frank Mir's going for the heel hook, looked like he's got it locked up, and Ian Freeman's teeing off on his face while he's holding onto his leg.
00:53:47.000Yeah, I think that you're seeing kind of...
00:53:50.000First of all, you're seeing two people do leg locks to people that don't have any clue what they're doing when it comes to the leg lock game.
00:54:32.000I'd say Iminari's better at some of these technical transitions that he does, some very unique, you know, counters and unique, you know, attacks.
00:54:40.000The spinning entries that you're good at, too, as well.
00:54:43.000Yeah, I mean, we definitely study him and try and use some of that stuff.
00:54:46.000So I think he's just a little bit more creative, a little bit more unique, but I don't think...
00:55:16.000They brought in a sports psychologist to try and, like, hey, why are you breaking your training partner's legs and everybody's legs in competition and not letting go?
00:55:24.000And the sports psychologist after a week was like, fuck this.
00:57:09.000I'll defend here, but I think he's so goddamn strong and on top of that his technique so sharp then went to grabs a hole you see this look on dudes faces like oh shit I'm not getting out of this guys are letting him get where he wants to be though.
00:57:22.000Yeah, like most of them anyway You know the better strategy is to put him where you want him as opposed to oh Yeah, I'm just gonna keep this on the feet.
00:57:29.000No, you're not you're not gonna keep this on the feet He's gonna find a way to get to the leg lock so pull guard put him put him down It shows you what a demon Hector Lombard is.
00:57:38.000Because Hector Lombard was like, bitch, you're not getting a hold of my legs.
00:58:32.000I think he got him in like a straight ankle lock and you hear a crack!
00:58:35.000Remember John Loeber got his foot broken off with a toehold in Japan?
00:58:39.000The whole foot just broke off and he's just looking at it and the foot's hanging and the ref just stops it and he's like looking at it going, oh shit.
00:59:32.000Luckily, I live in an age where I have all these people around me that Study and you know know the martial art you know like I always think about that like think back to like You know, what was it like when nobody knew what the fuck they were doing and you just had to make everything up You know I mean you had nothing to go off of you know what I mean?
00:59:47.000Now we're in this era where it's like, you know I could go to John with pretty much anything I'm gonna get a 95% accurate answer to whatever question is that I have because he's seen it You know a hundred times before on tape, you know what I mean?
00:59:58.000We don't have to innovate as much Are you planning on fighting in MMA? Yeah, one or two years.
01:00:03.000I don't know how to punch people in the face yet.
01:01:20.000With a guy as good as you are, I think the most important thing is you go to whoever you go to, if you decide to embark on your MMA career, go to someone that's got a full knowledge, like a Firas Zahabi type dude.
01:01:43.000Those guys that just look at the whole package of what you do as a fighter and piece together the right strategy for you.
01:01:49.000We have good connections with Firas and that camp.
01:01:54.000Their guys come to us for Jiu Jitsu and our guys go down to them for MMA. I'm definitely hoping once I get some striking and shoot boxing to a certain level, I'd love to go down there.
01:04:11.000I think I would still try at some point to transition into MMA. Maybe I would hold it off for a little bit longer.
01:04:16.000Like if I really saw that the sport was taking off and I felt like that's where I could make my headway and that's where I could make my mark, I'd definitely spend a lot more time there.
01:04:26.000I still think I would like to make a transition in MMA purely for a few reasons.
01:04:31.000One, just to test myself at a new thing.
01:04:34.000To make sure that I have the knowledge for when somebody comes up to me and goes, oh yeah, I want to make a transition to MMA from Jiu Jitsu.
01:04:43.000Well, I can't really give them advice if I've never done it before, I don't feel like.
01:04:46.000So I want to really know what I'm talking about if I'm talking to these young guys that want to come up and do something with MMA instead of just Jiu Jitsu.
01:04:54.000I definitely, from a teaching perspective, I need to get into MMA and experience that and know what it's like.
01:05:02.000Regardless of whether or not jiu-jitsu takes off and it's on TV and all that stuff.
01:05:05.000Are you planning on ever doing any amateur boxing matches or anything along those lines?
01:05:09.000I gotta talk to some of my coaches and stuff and see what they think is best in terms of my development and things like that.
01:05:15.000I would imagine that that probably would be good for sure.
01:05:19.000I want to avoid as much as possible Going the route of just getting knocked out all the time and training and stuff like that and just having that just gritty type of training where you're just It's just getting you tough You know in quotation marks and then I'll get to a point where I'm in a fight and I'm just getting touched on the chin and knocked out I want to make sure I'm focusing mostly on technical details and then you know putting it all together so smart and so happy to hear you say that it's one of the most important things and You know,
01:05:45.000Jamie Varner just did this interview recently.
01:05:47.000Jamie Varner was a former WEC lightweight champion.
01:05:58.000You know, he started talking about how he was sparring Ryan Bader and all these dudes who were way bigger than him.
01:06:02.000And that over those years of doing all that sparring with these larger guys and sparring really hard three days a week, He's like, don't try to prove you're tough.
01:06:41.000All I was really doing was, you know, hitting until I could get to a takedown anyway, but, I mean, just taking unnecessary damage for no reason from people that wanted to take my head off, you know?
01:06:50.000It's not smart, and people think it's cute.
01:07:56.000Get them to a point where they're comfortable enough to relax and then just let their mind open up to like what they should be doing, you know?
01:08:07.000But you see guys that train for a long time and maintain that mentality and still are just like, you know, just rough and tough guys that are just trying as hard as they can every single role.
01:08:17.000And they're not making a lot of progress.
01:09:12.000I'm going to have more points and I'm going to be able to submit the guy.
01:09:16.000Past that, these last three years, I think I've made the biggest developments in terms of broadening my submission base and learning how to submit people from different places and things like that.
01:09:25.000But I think it was kind of good for my progression because I got positionally sound and had a strategy and things like that.
01:09:32.000But it took until I was a black belt to really make How do you feel about submission only versus the points game?
01:09:45.000I think it takes a couple different things.
01:09:49.000You could see people that are possibly successful in both or successful in one or the other, but I think what it comes down to is the mentality of the person that's training or competing in either one of those things.
01:10:01.000I mean, you take somebody, whether they're a points fighter, if they're a points fighter competing in a submission-only tournament, you're going to pretty much see them take the same strategy in the submission-only tournament.
01:10:11.000You know, it takes guys that are constantly hunting for submissions in training, and that's when you're going to see the best matches, you know, guys that are constantly hunting after submissions all the time.
01:10:24.000It's not just like a situational thing.
01:10:26.000There's like this overarching thing that some of the bigger jiu-jitsu guys say, I think I saw it like an article from Kyoter and I love Kyoter.
01:10:34.000He's a great guy, but he posted this thing that said like, you know, Oh, you know, you know, I hate when people talk about, you know, submission fighters and, you know, points fighters and, you know, the difference between the two.
01:10:46.000And I think it's like, you know, the points fighters, it's all the same, you know, and these guys talk about, oh, I'm going to use my jujitsu.
01:10:54.000And if a submission opens up, I'm going to, yeah, I'll finish the guy if the submission opens up.
01:10:59.000No, you make the fucking submission open up.
01:11:01.000It's not, it's not like, oh, I'm waiting for this guy to like accidentally stick his arm out there.
01:11:05.000No, I make him, I take his arm away from him.
01:11:35.000And I don't think it's not a winning strategy.
01:11:38.000Clearly you see guys grind people out and submit them.
01:11:40.000But I think that not just using strength, you can find ways to open up submissions on people.
01:11:47.000There's definitely a deeper level of technique there.
01:11:49.000Yeah, that's why the difference between the way Josh Barnett describes submissions and the way some more technical jiu-jitsu-based guys would describe submissions.
01:12:00.000Barnett always calls catch wrestling a violent art.
01:12:09.000A lot of the young guys, like yourself, super aggressive guys, there's a change in philosophy then.
01:12:17.000There's more adhering to that philosophy, like the aggressive go-after-it philosophy.
01:12:21.000Yeah, and I think when we're talking about taking grappling to a point where it's a spectator sport, which is like what Eddie's trying to do in many of these other organizations, that's what needs to happen.
01:12:30.000Whether it's going to help you win fights or not, like, you know, you take a look at the UFC and Dana White's always telling people like, You have to have exciting fights.
01:13:31.000I don't necessarily think that you can't have exciting matches in the gi.
01:13:34.000I just think you have to find the right people.
01:13:36.000You have to find two people that are willing to put it all on the line and just try to submit each other and not give a shit whether or not they get submitted.
01:13:43.000It's hard, even when you find two people like that, when they both have a grip of the collar and the sleeve, they're just stuck there.
01:13:50.000They're really good at just holding each other.
01:14:07.000I'm definitely just focused on no gi right now.
01:14:09.000For everything in my future, it's just like, you know, if I'm gonna do MMA, it only makes sense.
01:14:13.000Every match, every super fight that I'm being asked to do is without the gi.
01:14:16.000It just literally at this point makes no sense for me to spend a lot of time on it.
01:14:20.000Now, once again, like I said before, from an instructional standpoint, students that might be interested in training in the gi, at some point, once I break away from You know, my athletic career, I'll definitely study the Gi, I'll definitely study Judo, I'll definitely study all the things that, those little intricacies that people use in Jiu Jitsu,
01:14:37.000the lapel guards and things like that, so that I can better help my students, but not so much for me as a professional athlete.
01:14:42.000I don't think, I think at this point, we're hitting a point in Jiu Jitsu where you have to make a decision, what am I going to specialize in?
01:14:49.000And I think I'm going to specialize in no-gi submission grappling.
01:16:03.000And I'm only going like, you know, bunny slopes or like, you know, blue, whatever the blue square, like an advanced, intermediate, whatever.
01:16:09.000I could never do, I was fearful of a black, black diamond straight down.
01:17:34.000I ask for it all the time, but again, I can't really call Krohn out and he beat me.
01:17:37.000I call him out in a sense like, hey, I want to fight you, but I would never talk shit about Krohn to try and get him to fight me because that's not fair.
01:18:43.000So it's cool that something like that exists, and I just think that we need to have more of those out there, and then eventually Hollywood people are going to go, hey, whoa, whoa, whoa, this is wild shit.
01:18:57.000But the UFC has established a very firm, huge property in the UFC. That's what everybody connects with MMA. MMA equals UFC. And if you're fighting for Bellator, they go, oh, wow, you think you're going to be fighting for the UFC someday?
01:19:14.000How many times have you heard a guy in 2000, 2001, 2002, guys that were already deeply into the UFC. We saw it in 93. It's 2000, 2001. Even to this day, you run into guys that aren't into it, and they go, yeah,
01:20:03.000And then the finals, hoisting Patrick Smith, you're like...
01:20:07.000Holy, I went from hating Hoist in the opening round, because he beat my karate guys, to rooting for him and just being his follower right there at that final.
01:20:16.000Because Pat Smith was kind of a, you know, he was like a heel, even within that.
01:21:18.000There isn't three matches or 12 matches like the Mundial's.
01:21:21.000It's one match at a time showcased, but it's not tournament style.
01:21:25.000So what I'm trying to do is I took the best from Abu Dhabi and the best from Metamorris and try to combine it.
01:21:31.000Metamorris, submission only, one match at a time.
01:21:34.000And Abu Dhabi, the super 16-man brackets that are in themselves, if you watch it one by one, one at a time, center stage, it's mind-blowing when you watch it like that.
01:21:44.000We need to watch it like that, in my opinion.
01:21:47.000That's what made EBI 1 and EBI 2, which, I mean, Gary went and submitted everybody in the 16-man bracket.
01:21:52.000Every dude, he ran through, and in the final, by the time he got to the final with him and Richie, Richie blew through everybody on his end of the bracket, so it was Richie and Gary...
01:22:02.000Everyone was going nuts because they saw it unfold one at a time.
01:22:56.000It's risky, but the tournament is so exciting that if we could pull this off and no one gets hurt and we get lucky, it's a grand show that people are going to watch over.
01:23:06.000And when you watch it from the beginning to end, you feel it.
01:24:11.000You see the drama, you know, and that is what's missing from grappling.
01:24:16.000That's why, in my opinion, that's why you can't get it on TV because in all the other formats, it's just too much stalling, too much holding.
01:24:22.000We need Renato Laranja right now to dispute your claims, because right now you're talking crazy, disrespectful, sport of jiu-jitsu, and the gi is everything, my friend.
01:25:02.000All those mean looks, it's all him doing pro wrestling.
01:25:05.000He's actually super sweet, super nice.
01:25:08.000He'll take a picture, and then he'll be like a little kid going, let me see, let me see, ah!
01:25:11.000And he'll look at his picture and be like, ah!
01:25:13.000We got some classic ones from back in like 2004, 2003. Love that dude.
01:25:17.000And he has this shirt where it's him standing there like a cartoon character and it says on the top, don't be coward, don't run off the fight.
01:27:37.000And, you know, he got choked to sleep, which I think was very important for jiu-jitsu, just to show, like, everyone looked at Hoist Gracie, rightly so, as this massive innovator, this pioneer of jiu-jitsu and MMA, a hero.
01:27:51.000This was after the UFC gets choked out, right?
01:29:59.000I was just saying that people were trying to be like the UFC in the way that you were talking about how somebody would be fighting in Bellator.
01:30:07.000It's like, oh, yeah, when are you going to be in UFC? People are trying to do that.
01:30:11.000I've had multiple organizations now ask me to be exclusive to their organization.
01:30:30.000Look, the big issue with MMA and the big issue with boxing has always been that.
01:30:35.000Trying to get the best guys to be able to fight the best guys.
01:30:38.000When you're exclusive for one promoter or exclusive for another promoter, it makes things super problematic.
01:30:43.000Independent contracts for independent matches and no long-term commitment to things is the smart way to go for grapplers because if that gets established as the go-to, then it favors the grappler and then there's no advantage that the promoter has over the grappler.
01:30:57.000The grappler could always find another promoter.
01:31:19.000It's the best thing to do, because I think if everybody just set that precedent and we created this market where the grapplers were the star.
01:31:29.000If people want to see, you know, fill in the blank, Marcello Garcia versus Gary Tonin.
01:31:33.000If people want to see that match, the real benefiters of that match, the benefactors of that match, should be Marcello Garcia and Gary Tonin.
01:31:40.000And then, of course, some money should go to the promoter, you know, some money should, but...
01:31:45.000The only thing that's exciting about submission grappling is the submission grapplers.
01:32:31.000Every single one of these organizations, these professional organizations, EBI, Metamorris, Polaris, all these things that are popping up here and there, they're all doing amazing things for the sport.
01:32:40.000They're broadening the audience for submission grappling.
01:32:43.000It's so silly to think that you need to be just the guy.
01:32:46.000Everybody is cross-promoting each other.
01:33:05.000Dude, how could you not want Gio Martinez on your fucking show?
01:33:08.000He just blew through everybody in the Abu Dhabi trials, all within two minutes, tapped everybody, won EBI, won as a featherweight, won as a bantamweight, finished everybody.
01:33:22.000Well, the people that are doing jujitsu, the people that are involved in jujitsu, if you're involved in these matches, if you're involved in competition, most likely, 99% of the time, you're making your money off of teaching, right?
01:33:34.000Most of the people that are running these schools, that's where they're making their money.
01:33:37.000So it's not like a situation where there's this giant piece of pie that everybody's battling over, so everybody wants dominance.
01:33:43.000It's like it's beneficial for you to get your students into Metamorris because then they can highlight how good of a teacher you are.
01:34:16.000We bring them back over to EBI. I think this is the new way of thinking.
01:34:20.000I think that this kind of exists in everything.
01:34:22.000It exists in martial arts, where martial arts today, like here's a perfect example, where jiu-jitsu guys are constantly trading techniques with each other, constantly showing each other things.
01:34:32.000The whole thing about martial arts in the old days, like in the 60s and the 70s, was how secret it was.
01:35:13.000But as soon as someone comes along and buys the whole thing and then wants to put on only, like you said, 12 matches a year, like you compete, how often do you compete?
01:35:26.000And that's one of the reasons why you're so good.
01:35:28.000You're not just training all the time, you're throwing yourself into battle all the time.
01:35:33.000I've seen quite a few of your matches online, and I saw the recent one where you, what's the guy's name, the leg lock specialist, the MMA guy?
01:36:21.000But the performance that really impressed me, your two performances in Metamorris, man, when you went against Kit Dale and you didn't even leg lock him.
01:45:12.000The only reason I called it Marcellotine, I didn't know it was called High Elbow Guillotine.
01:45:16.000I'm sure there was a name, but I just stuck with Marcellotine so that in the 10th Planet system, every time that comes up, and it's so crucial, it's a part of our warm-ups.
01:45:27.000I want Marcelo to make sure he gets credit, because no one's had more success with it than anybody.
01:45:32.000I would say, because of that success, he's probably the best at it.
01:45:36.000I've seen him run through black belts.
01:45:39.000I've seen him run through a high-level black belt 10 times in 10 minutes with the same guillotine.
01:46:12.000I've seen people do it with ten finger grips.
01:46:15.000The difference between those, what Marcelo told me, is this feels so much easier for me, but what Marcelo says, and Danny does it this way too, Marcel, we went over it.
01:46:28.000He said, he does it like this as opposed to this because the guy underneath is going to come up and reach and grab.
01:46:35.000And if he gets in between these two hands here, his fingers are going to come up.
01:46:57.000Yeah, that makes a lot of sense There's a bunch of different what we're talking about for people don't know if you're listening to especially there's a bunch of different ways to hold your hands with different submissions and that's one of the interesting things about jujitsu is that there's there's little tweaks that you learn little turns and twists yeah,
01:47:12.000like Einstein always likes to call it freedom rock and You know that one guillotine?
01:47:17.000You ever seen that commercial for Freedom Rock?
01:47:19.000It's a ridiculous commercial for one of those compilation records that you would buy.
01:47:54.000It is a smart thing, and it's cool that there's those little technical things about jiu-jitsu, and for people that get involved in it and start realizing, like, from the outside, you look at it one way, and then you get involved in it, and you start seeing all the depth to it.
01:48:06.000That's where all the jiu-jitsu nerds come into place, because that's...
01:48:11.000People are like, well, how come these really computer-oriented, nerdy kind of dudes are so in love with jiu-jitsu?
01:48:17.000Well, you know, like Donaher always talks about, there's a video that we were talking about earlier that they were playing on the underground with him talking about it being high-level problem-solving under stress.
01:48:28.000And that's what's exciting about people who are, maybe they would be into video games, or maybe they'd be into chess, or maybe they'd be into all sorts of problem-solving type things.
01:48:37.000But you get, doing it in real time, the rush of success is so much better.
01:48:42.000Like, the rush of winning a chess match, I'm sure is great.
01:48:45.000But do you think it's as good as you choking Kit Dale?
01:49:03.000Yeah, somebody overlaid some of your podcast over some, like, jujitsu video, some reel, about, like, you talking about submissions and, like, what submissions really are or what a tap really is.
01:49:12.000And you're like, oh, yeah, I just possibly killed you right there.
01:50:02.000And you could still, like, you watch that match, man, that's exciting shit.
01:50:06.000I dare anybody who knows nothing about jujitsu, just watch Gary Tonin versus Kit Dale and watch it with an open mind and watch those transitions that you're going through and you realize, like, whoa, this is a, they're doing a crazy thing here.
01:50:19.000They're like, they're, like, Helston Gracie, I had Steve Maxwell on the podcast the other day, and Helston Gracie, somebody asked him to describe jiu-jitsu, and I guess his English is not the best in the world.
01:50:49.000Or keep it up until you can't keep it up anymore, and then that guy beats you.
01:50:52.000It's a super hyper way of killing someone and breaking their limbs.
01:50:56.000John Danaher, remember we hung out with him that one night?
01:50:59.000He said, if you look at it, Striking is the least intelligent way of taking someone out.
01:51:07.000Grappling, that's the most intelligent way.
01:51:09.000Striking is the most caveman way of fighting.
01:51:12.000Just keep hitting each other's heads over and over until someone goes down.
01:51:16.000When grappling is like, let me take this guy down and scientifically put him to sleep and get the hell out of here.
01:51:22.000That is true, but in a situation where you can't grapple with someone, like, if you're in a street fight, would you want to be in a street fight with Marcelo Garcia in a bar, or would you want to be in a street fight with John Wayne Parr?
01:51:35.000John Wayne Parr is going to be head kicking motherfuckers and putting people in the hospital with elbows to the face.
01:51:40.000Like, you try to get close to that dude, you're going to get your head smashed in.
01:52:48.000It's more intelligent than wrestling with somebody.
01:52:51.000If you're in a bar and a bunch of other people around and you're in a melee type situation, if you can be a John Donaher, look, you could protect yourself for sure.
01:53:39.000That's pretty much what me and Eddie feel like we're doing all the time.
01:53:42.000Just completely misconstruing everything he's ever said to us and just ruining all of it.
01:53:46.000There's no either or, because there's a lot of intelligence and there's a lot of technique to high-level striking.
01:53:52.000If you watch those Lawrence Kenshin breakdowns or the Jack Slack breakdowns on the underground, he goes over the real technical process of why Bullcat or Yotsin Klai, one of the really high-level Thai guys, why they're so good.
01:54:08.000It just looks like they're smashing each other with their bones, but note how one guy keeps getting smashed and the other guy does all the smashing.
01:54:34.000I think this is like one of the best times for it ever because of all the people talking about on the internet and all these online communities that have formed.
01:54:42.000It seems to me like jujitsu has a lot of enthusiasm behind it right now.
01:56:16.000I knew, I had a feeling it was gonna be that powerful when you watch it unfold, but when we actually did EBI 1 and 2, man, it was incredible.
01:56:25.000The people that were there were coming up to me and saying constantly, and I mean they were saying that was the best Jiu-Jitsu tournament they've ever seen.
01:56:32.000It's only because they saw it that way, one match at a time.
01:56:35.000By the time they got to Gio Martinez and Jeff Glover in the final, triple overtime, the place went nuts!
01:56:43.000Do you think it's possible to do something like this and stream it, like a Netflix service where a bunch of people already have the service and all they have to do is just click on it?
01:56:52.000You know, or an Apple TV type deal where a lot of people already have, like if you get access to Netflix, you get access to 70 million homes.
01:57:00.000And there's still people that, for whatever reason, they don't have the ability to get the internet on their TV, so you don't get them.
01:57:08.000But the people that do, the people that have internet connected to their TV, a lot of fucking people have Netflix, man.
01:57:13.000So much so that they're sponsoring television shows.
01:57:47.000It's got to be no gi if it's going to be on TV. You ain't going to put gi on TV. You have a better chance of putting chess on TV. Yeah, I agree with you with that.
01:57:54.000There's just a lot of matches that wind up being stalemates where they're holding onto the collar.
01:57:57.000And it's also, as much as it's an interesting learning tool, and it's great to learn that if you get in a fight with someone who's got a winter coat on, the reality is when we're looking at sport, like combat sport, we're looking at jiu-jitsu, we're looking at jiu-jitsu and MMA... They should be interchangeable,
01:58:35.000It's fun to play, but you're not going to put it on Fox anytime soon.
01:58:40.000Nothing wrong with jujitsu with the gi, but I agree that for no gi, the difference between no gi and gi is it just smoothly transitions into MMA. Except for a few variables like the getting punched when you're going for leg locks and stuff.
01:58:54.000The UFC is the hottest rising sport on the planet.
01:58:57.000There's millions and millions and millions of fans all over the world that are the rabid fans of the UFC. There's no reason why there can't be one million of those fans that are into no gi jujitsu because really it's the same thing just without the striking.
01:59:09.000On the ground, it's the same objective.
01:59:14.000Standing, there's no striking, but if you love MMA, you should be able to appreciate some good grappling as long as it's exciting, the format's right, there's no points, and it's single matches.
01:59:27.000There's no reason why you can't get a fraction of all those UFC fans.
01:59:33.000If it's done right and marketed right, I believe you can get 25%.
01:59:39.000I could see there being some sort of a cable television show where they do it, like a Spike TV. Spike TV has Friday night, they have all combat sports now.
01:59:49.000They have boxing, they're having glory, and then they have Bellator.
02:01:11.000And it's just a different thing when you're adding in knees and elbows.
02:01:15.000And Glory doesn't have that, just like K-1 didn't have that.
02:01:18.000K-1, you could only, for a while, you could throw elbows with two knees, but then a lot of dudes came over there and they just blasted two hands behind the head.
02:01:26.000And then it became illegal to even throw knees with two hands behind the head.
02:01:30.000You could only use one hand behind the head.
02:01:31.000If the owner of Glory came to you and said, Joe, I respect your opinion, what do you think we should do with the Rules of Glory?
02:01:45.000The true art of stand-up involves throwing stand-up, throwing strikes in the clinch, throwing...
02:01:51.000Muay Thai involves a lot of elbows and tight.
02:01:53.000Muay Thai involves manipulating bodies and leading people into knees, leading...
02:01:58.000Alan Joban, perfect example, in his last UFC bout.
02:02:02.000The way he turned that dude into that elbow, that is Muay Thai applied to MMA. I mean, it's a combination of grappling your opponent and striking.
02:02:13.000And you don't see that as much in glory, because I think it was along the lines of what they were trying to do with K1. They thought it would make it more exciting if you had, like, less clinching, more exciting, and the guys wouldn't get cut up, which is what they're worried about for tournaments.
02:02:27.000But I think tournaments with striking is super fucking dangerous anyway.
02:02:30.000I think they're asking for trouble by having a guy like Joe Schilling fight three...
02:02:34.000He's fighting Simon motherfucking Marcus, you know, and then after Simon Marcus, he's fighting Wayne motherfucking Barrett, and then after that, he's fighting Artin motherfucking Levin.
02:02:43.000Three of the baddest motherfuckers on Earth, and you're throwing head kicks and punches and elbows.
02:02:49.000You can't have elbows in there because you get cut up.
02:03:34.000Yeah, if they have Bellator, then they have a way more dangerous sport anyway, as far as what the public's perception would be, because you're adding in takedowns and submissions.
02:04:14.000Just not as good as if it was like full Muay Thai rules.
02:04:17.000Damn, I wonder if he's gonna take that advice.
02:04:20.000I hope so, man, because full Muay Thai rules is also way more technical.
02:04:24.000You're watching way more, like, you never know what the fuck, like a guy like Kevin Ross, he's a perfect example.
02:04:28.000He's a guy who fights total Thai style or like Bua Cao.
02:04:32.000When you see that guy use everything, Knees to the body, elbows in the clinch, upward elbows coming in, step off to the side, leg kicks across the front of the thigh.
02:04:41.000They're using all these different techniques.
02:04:49.000That's like when Elite XC was saying that you would go to the ground, but only for 15 seconds, and then they have to stand you back up.
02:04:55.000We're like, this isn't fucking MMA! When Big Country had Arlovsky down and he was working at Kimura and they stood him up from side control.
02:05:27.000There's any stand-up I love it when you say something there shouldn't be stand-ups at all It's only five minutes.
02:05:33.000Yeah, you have five minutes to get a guy to the ground and submit him and the guy's trying to kick your fucking head off Yeah, the idea that you should be stood back up because it's boring look if it's boring then you know what's gonna happen?
02:05:43.000Less people are going to buy your pay-per-view.
02:05:45.000Less people are going to pay to see you fight.
02:06:16.000If you wanted to make a league or a fight company that was totally fair, when the fight ends, if they're on the ground in the mount, The next round should start just like that in the mound, right?
02:07:30.000A guy like Arlovsky, you get him to the ground, you get him in side control, and some fucking slob of a promoter decides that you have to stand these guys up because they want war.
02:09:16.000You know, we're trying to make it more friendly for gays, queer genders, transgenders, straight people that like watching dudes in their underwear.
02:09:25.000There's not a good representation of the male form.
02:11:48.000If I say that jiu-jitsu was the opposite, if we lived in the twilight zone and 98% of the people doing jiu-jitsu were women, and I was one of them rare dudes, I'd be like, hell yeah, I'm going to do jiu-jitsu forever.
02:11:59.000That's how probably girls feel, right?
02:12:00.000Just get mauled all the time by giant dudes.
02:19:14.000I'm going to try to tap him with an arm bar or something here.
02:19:16.000That was one of the matches I wanted to talk to you about is your Javi Vasquez match.
02:19:20.000Dude, that was such a slick submission, man, because you're known for your leg locks, and it's kind of like Javi was defending well, and Javi has really good defense anyway, and then you switched it up and went for that triangle and caught the triangle on the side.
02:19:35.000As I move forward with my matches and things, there's certain situations where I'm just at all costs trying to submit somebody and beat them in whatever way that I possibly can.
02:19:43.000Specifically in that match, I had every intention because I had just beaten a really good leg locker Marcin held.
02:19:48.000I had every intention of trying to not submit him with a leg lock.
02:21:17.000But on the bottom, the only way it's going to work on the bottom, generally, is you've got to have that lockdown.
02:21:22.000And without the lockdown, because if I have the lockdown and I have the arm trunk on the bottom, I'm just going to stay there and try to finish it from there.
02:21:28.000Don't you, you sometimes go sideways on a guy and you have the lockdown as well, which puts your knee at a really funky angle.
02:22:07.000You could pass and commit to that arm triangle.
02:22:10.000You could keep the lockdown, roll to a vaporizer, or you could get a vaporizer by just simply turning and then just sitting back nice and slow where there's no roll and you go to it.
02:22:20.000Yeah, your match was interesting because when you guys were commentating on that match too, when you saw he got to that position on the side trying to set up that triangle, you got fired up.
02:22:39.000As far as, I'm sure you have way more than I know, but I know, I've seen you, I know you got all round jiu-jitsu game, and I understand you, and I feel you don't want to be known as the leg lock guy, because you do have, you're really good, like your guillotine is right up there with the top guys.
02:22:55.000And the way you get to the back, Elite level.
02:24:04.000Not that she would have disapproved of that or anything like that, but it's not like it would have been something I would have been brought interest to.
02:24:10.000They didn't talk about it at school or anything?
02:24:13.000Maybe you heard about it, but didn't look into it?
02:24:15.000Yeah, no, it wasn't a big part of the culture that I was in, you know what I mean?
02:24:18.000So, yeah, nobody ever really brought it up until my one friend that happened to be training jiu-jitsu.
02:24:23.000Once I learned about that, that's when I started learning about UFC and stuff like that.
02:24:26.000I hadn't really experienced any of that.
02:24:29.000So, that's what got me into the sport, but not obsessed with it.
02:24:32.000I was like, I was like, wow, that sounds really cool.
02:26:26.000And I wanted that power to be able to fucking have control over my fate, have control over being able to defend myself against another person, You know act in that way and then from that point on I was in love with jiu-jitsu eventually, you know in love with competing and wanting to Teach and all that stuff.
02:26:44.000So is that what you do to all your white belts?
02:26:46.000No, no, I don't I don't I probably should though if I wanted more actually I do do that to my to my student that I'm trying to bring up Gordon Ryan I beat the crap out of him as much as possible and try to demean him and make him whoa Just feel horrible keep him on the deal.
02:27:12.000I think that's how you make people good, man.
02:27:14.000There's something to that, for sure, but there's also something to just, like, being really lucky and having a great instructor.
02:27:19.000You know, when a kid has an instructor like you that's so passionate about the game, like, one of the hardest parts about Jiu-Jitsu in the day was finding a real good instructor.
02:27:54.000We're so lucky here in Southern, California I mean what what's better as far as like locations on earth and Thank God the Brazilians like the beach Yeah, when you find like the ones that are like fuck man,
02:32:50.000There's moves that you do in breakdancing that require, like, insane balance and coordination and strength.
02:32:58.000Like, Steve Maxwell had me do these crazy workouts the other day where you're doing, like, this push-up, and then you pick one hand up, and then you put one leg up, and then you lift the other knee off the ground by two inches, and you're holding it there.
02:33:12.000So one leg's forward, you're in, like, a Superman position, right?
02:33:15.000You're holding yourself up with one hand and one foot on the other side, and your knee is off the ground, and the leg is up, and the hand is up, and you're just holding it.
02:34:28.000Do you have goals that you've set for yourself as far as your competition career, what you want to achieve?
02:34:34.000Yeah, I think the main goal right now is to bring submission grappling to that level we're talking about, to where it's an exciting spectator sport that people can get paid to do, and it's like a career.
02:34:47.000Obviously, personally, that's kind of my goal, but it's kind of a goal for the sport in the same sense.
02:35:59.000So anyway, I was just like, alright, these guys really have this clean diet.
02:36:02.000I'll give them the real look at what my diet is really like, you know?
02:36:05.000And for me, because I'm in between trainings all the time and stuff like that, it's just like, I eat whatever I can and I need a high, dense amount of calories all the time.
02:36:13.000So it's like, Cheeseburgers and pizza and stuff like that.
02:38:17.000In terms of just my ability to do so on a day-to-day basis with my training schedule and with everything else, this is very very difficult.
02:38:25.000But I don't take as much stock into it as some people believe like, oh, this is gonna be that deciding factor that 0.1% that's gonna make you beat, you know, so-and-so.
02:38:34.000I don't truly believe that, you know, because I mean ultimately if I lose Because my diet wasn't good that day or whatever the case may be.
02:38:44.000I really just don't feel like I was that good at jiu-jitsu to begin with.
02:38:47.000Like, I should be making improvements in jiu-jitsu.
02:38:50.000Like I said, it's important, but it's not going to be the deciding factor between me beating somebody or not beating them.
02:39:21.000There's huge room for improvement in mine.
02:39:24.000Don't you think there's a technique to giving yourself the right amount of carbohydrates at a certain time, the right amount of protein at a certain time?
02:40:28.000I can't even remember, but I don't think I was tired.
02:40:30.000I think I was just in a really shitty spot, and that's why I ended up, you know, tapping out because I thought I was about to go unconscious.
02:40:39.000I think if you put me in the same situation at a complete 100% right before the match, I wouldn't have gotten out any better than I did there, really.
02:40:47.000But, yeah, man, I mean, I agree it makes a difference, but not...
02:40:51.000Not enough for you to stay away from pizza.
02:42:56.000It was like one of those things they spread out?
02:43:00.000Okay, so this is is this like things that are just like Okay He once punched Steve someone Steve Kerr in the face during practice We don't need to see all that shit, but okay, so forget what I said Trying to say his fucking diet wasn't that good.
02:44:30.000So yeah, so you've got that's all healthy shit the people don't think that's healthy or people that are have an agenda They're like either vegans or they they want to promote like some really radical idea of Nutrition knife my favorite comments on the metamor the pre metamorist video was Gary Tony needs to stop eating cheeseburgers and buy some proactive What's proactive?
02:49:37.000You know, our friend Bud, his mom has cancer, and she's been taking cannabis therapy for it.
02:49:45.000And, you know, they attribute it to a bunch of different things, but one of them being that she stopped doing chemotherapy, And it's at the same time she started doing this cannabis and her tumor shrunk by like 30% over a period of just a few weeks.
02:49:59.000They don't know if it was the combination of the chemotherapy and the cannabis oil, but they know that the cannabis oil has a big, big effect on it.
02:50:06.000And I've been talking to so many people that know people with cancer.
02:50:09.000That have also gone that route and have started taking cannabis oil, that Rick Simpson's oil and a bunch of different CBD oils.
02:50:15.000It's amazing what I'm hearing about that.
02:50:17.000Did you see that Vice documentary on the measles virus and the HIV virus?
02:51:28.000Yeah, because it's not, you know, illegal in any sense.
02:51:31.000I mean, they have, like, some light testing that they do for, like, IBJJF, but it's, like, one of those situations, again, where, like, if people know what to do, like...
02:51:37.000They have advanced notice of the event coming up.
02:51:40.000They know if they could be tested, whatever.
02:52:24.000Which is what happens in MMA. Some camps get really, really good at figuring out what the ways are to cheat the tests or this, that, and the other thing.
02:52:31.000And then other guys aren't going to fucking go through that.
02:52:33.000I mean, it gives those guys an advantage over the other guys that...
02:52:53.000Well, we've also seen a bunch of guys who are jiu-jitsu guys that got into MMA and then got caught when they got into MMA. Because then they get tested a little bit more thoroughly, and it turns out they were probably using it the entire time.
02:53:45.000I just, you know, I don't know what the answer is, you know what I mean, in terms of what they should do or whatever the case may be with PEDs.
02:53:55.000People can be taking EPOs and all different kinds of things, you know.
02:53:58.000Well, there was an article recently online where they were saying that these businessmen, these middle-aged businessmen are taking EPO and winning cycling races.
02:54:05.000Just entering into amateur cycling races on EPO and winning them.
02:54:26.000EPO? Well, Ali Bagutinov, who fought for the title against Mighty Mouse Johnson, he tested positive for EPO. Shane Mosley tested positive for EPO back in the day.
02:54:36.000You think that's really, you know, you'd say, I mean, people always say, ah, a large percentage of professional athletes are on steroids, da-da-da.
02:54:44.000Do you think a large percentage of them are on EPO as well?
02:55:06.000I could be wrong about that, but I think, yeah, they've made major advances.
02:55:09.000So they used to have to do, like, blood transfusions in order to do it properly.
02:55:13.000Yeah, well, there's still guys, I'm sure, that blood dope.
02:55:15.000I'm sure they do that, because there's no test for that.
02:55:18.000When you take your own blood out of your body, you make weight, your body has that blood regenerated in your body, and then you add more blood to your body, you have more oxygen-carrying capability.
02:55:28.000Doesn't it take two weeks though for your body to make that blood?
02:56:10.000It's a fascinating time where people are learning more and more about how to cheat and then how to stop cheating.
02:56:18.000The shit that Hector Lombard got caught for, I've never even heard of it before.
02:56:22.000It's some designer steroid that was really expensive, exotic shit that it was like that clear stuff that Barry Bonds and the Victor Conte stuff where they thought that nobody knew how to detect it.
02:56:41.000There are landing punches that you probably wouldn't be able to land.
02:56:43.000You're doing damage, especially when you're dealing with some sort of a war where one person surges and comes on at the end and stops that person, you know?