J.J. Willink of Extreme Ownership joins us to talk about how he became a Navy SEAL, how he got into the business, and what it takes to be a professional bullshitter. He also talks about the importance of keeping your words short and saying what you mean, and the value of not letting other people's opinions affect your ability to do the things you need to do to be the best you can be in order to achieve your goals and become the best at what you do. This episode is a must-listen for anyone who wants to learn how to be an effective leader and a leader who is willing to put in the time, energy, and effort to make a difference in the lives of those around them. If you don't already know who he is, then you're in for a treat! Jocko Willink is a former Navy SEAL who served with the elite elite United States Navy SEALs and is now a writer and entrepreneur. He's written a book called "How U.S. SEALs Lead and Win" and is the author of a new podcast called "Extreme Ownership: How to Be a Professional Bullshitter and Win in the Business of Business and Life" which is available on Amazon Prime and wherever books are sold. We hope you enjoy this episode, and if you do, please leave us a review on Apple Podcasts, and share it with a friend or send us your thoughts and opinions on the podcast. We'd love to hear from your fellow SEALs! Tim Ferriss is a review of this episode of the podcast, and we'd love it! Tweet us what you thought of it! :) or share it on Insta/tweet us and what you think of it on your social media accounts if you think it was a good one! ;) Text Me! & we'd like to hear your thoughts on this episode! or your thoughts about it. Tim's Insta: of course, or your experience with the podcast or your views on the episode? & what you're looking forward to hearing about it? or any other podcast related to this episode or any feedback you'd like us to send us out there! and we'll be listening to it in the next episode of this podcast? - Tim's thoughts on it! or your response to it :) -Tune in next week's episode
00:00:27.000Like, when I see you, you know, you're hanging around with Lister, I saw you a few times at the UFC, I'm like, that guy probably knows some shit, or he's seen some shit.
00:00:35.000And then I saw, or listened to the Tim Ferriss podcast, and I go, okay, well that makes a lot of sense now.
00:00:41.000If you haven't heard that podcast, it is excellent.
00:00:44.000And you're the first guy ever to come with your own notepad and your own pen, too.
00:01:45.000Yeah, that was the thing that I was thinking when he was encouraging you to use social media.
00:01:50.000I was like, a guy like you, you're not a peacocker, you know?
00:01:55.000And there's something about social media that, as a person who's an avid social media user, there's some peacocking to it, you know?
00:02:02.000And I try to do it with humor, and I try to, because it's an important aspect of promoting comedy shows and podcasts and things along those lines.
00:02:10.000But you're much more of a keep it to yourself, One of the things that I loved about the Ferris podcast you were talking about, how you would have commanders come to various leaders and ask them, what do you need?
00:02:43.000When I needed something and I spoke up and said, hey boss, this is what I need and this is why I need it, they would instantly give it to me.
00:02:50.000Because they knew that I was telling the truth and it wasn't some, you know, half-assed request that wasn't real.
00:02:55.000It was something that we legit needed and they'd give it to me.
00:02:58.000Well, this is the value of someone who keeps their words short and means what they say and says what they mean and doesn't have a lot of bullshit involved in their vocabulary.
00:03:10.000And this is coming from a professional bullshitter.
00:03:14.000I talk, you know, fill a lot of hours of just shooting the shit about nonsense.
00:03:19.000Yeah, and I mean, I have to, you know, look in the mirror myself.
00:03:22.000I mean, I just wrote with my partner, Leif Babin, who I served with, you know, we just wrote a 300-page book about us, you know, for all practical purposes.
00:03:31.000Now, of course, it's about our team, and it's about what we learned and what we experienced, but there's no doubt that there's some level of, you know, self-promotion when you're writing a book that's got your name on the cover of it, and now I'm sitting here talking to you, and I guess that puts me in the same league.
00:03:46.000Maybe not the same league, but at least I'm playing the same sport.
00:03:48.000Yeah, we're definitely playing the same sport, but there's benefit to that because I think what you have to say and especially what you had to say in the Tim Ferriss podcast is very important.
00:04:02.000Because your perspective is of one who was involved in the most intense activity a human being can participate in in today's world.
00:04:13.000You were involved in combat in Iraq during the worst time of the war and You came through it with some pretty intense lessons and You can I think anybody listening to that podcast can get a lot out of it There's inspiration to be gotten from that podcast for sure,
00:04:32.000but there's also an understanding That can only be...
00:04:38.000I don't think anybody else can relay what you experienced but you.
00:04:44.000You know, you can have all these guys that write these, you know, movies, and they could write screenplays and television shows about it, or guys can write books about it, embedded journalists can write about it.
00:04:57.000I got a sense from just you talking about it Tim Ferriss podcast Literally a shift in my perspective of what it's like to be there Yeah It is you know for me it was my and I know this might sound weird,
00:05:16.000but it was my lifelong dream To be in combat and to be in a leadership position in combat ever since I could remember wanting to do anything Of any substance with my life.
00:05:30.000I wanted to be some kind of a commando.
00:05:33.000And so, I really felt, and the Battle of Ramadi was, you know, like you said, it was 2006. It was Ramadi, Iraq.
00:05:41.000It was the worst place in the world at the time.
00:05:46.000Felt like my whole life had sort of been Preparing me to be there in that position Taking care of those guys to the best of my ability and going out and and sending them out to go and kill the enemy and supporting the conventional forces that were there that were unbelievably brave and humble and Just miraculously patriotic And we formed a brotherhood that,
00:06:13.000you know, to this day, I don't think it'll ever be replaced.
00:06:17.000And you can see why, you know, these stories of war stand the test of time.
00:06:22.000And when we talk about the Peloponnesian Wars, we talk about war for all time because there's something there.
00:06:28.000And I think it's what you began with because it is the ultimate...
00:06:32.000Human test, you know, it's the ultimate it is other people are trying to kill you and you're trying to kill them and that's just the ultimate test and Not that it's a great test or a test that everyone should want to have happen because it's it's awful and horrible and And wretched in many ways.
00:06:54.000But at the same time, it's there and it's present.
00:07:04.000I know Dana White, you know, says fighting's in our DNA. Well, you don't have to go but one or two degrees further from fist fighting to where, you know, tribes of human beings are trying to kill each other.
00:07:17.000Yeah, it's one of the subjects that I've talked about with my friend Duncan.
00:07:21.000We were going over this, and we essentially came to the conclusion that the history of the human race is a history of military warfare.
00:07:30.000I mean, whenever you talk about the human race, you talk about the Civil War.
00:07:36.000World War I, World War II, Korea, Vietnam, you talk about wars, and in between those wars, people preparing for more war, or trying to avoid war, the Cold War, in between wars.
00:07:48.000You talk about the various conflicts throughout history, whether it's Genghis Khan, or whether it's Napoleon, you're talking about war.
00:07:56.000I mean, almost all of our history has been trying to keep people from fucking with us, and trying to take things that we think will help our people.
00:08:05.000That's essentially the history of the human race.
00:08:08.000Yeah, and I think what really strikes people and why there's a an almost Sick fascination with it in some ways is because there it's you know, we say that a Combat is like life but amplified and intensified so it's similar to regular life except for the consequences are obviously everything you know you can die that can be the end of you and So when you're in that moment and when you read about that and when people read these
00:08:38.000books or watch these movies They get some sense of what that must be like and I think that's why there's like I said some Attraction to it.
00:08:48.000I mean that's why war there's hundreds and hundreds of war movies and hundreds and hundreds of war books because people try and understand what that emotional content really means Well, there's no higher stakes.
00:09:00.000So anytime you're involved in an activity that, literally, there are no higher stakes.
00:09:04.000Other than the loss of your loved ones and the grief that you would suffer because of that, the loss of your own life is about the highest stake possible.
00:09:11.000And when I talk to people like you or many of the other guys that I've talked to that have served and been involved in combat, one of the craziest aspects of it is Many want to be back there.
00:09:24.000Many experience that life tuned up to 11, and they recall it like it's the best time of their life.
00:10:02.000There's an intensity there, but having so much pressure and so much at stake when it goes away, it's definitely leaves a hollow empty space inside.
00:10:53.000When you're at war, your experience is protecting all those around you as well as staying alive.
00:11:01.000And losing friends and thinking that you could have done something differently and maybe someone would still be here.
00:11:09.000That's a completely different kind of thing to leave and to come back to.
00:11:17.000Regular civilization and then to watch all the shit that you did in Iraq go to pieces now you watch just fucking chaos over there now every day in the news that Whether it's the the civil war between the Sunni and the Shia or whether it's what's going on with Isis and it just seems like Whatever gains that you guys made there are slowly being eroded every day.
00:11:47.000So, like I said, we fought, and when I say we, I'm talking about a giant group of 5,000 or 6,000 Americans, or the 1-1 AD, just a huge group of awesome guys, soldiers and Marines, and we were a part of them.
00:12:01.000And so we all fought very hard for the city of Ramadi.
00:12:27.000It's because they Tortured people they skinned people alive they beheaded people they raped little girls and little boys that was just disgusting and so we went in there and fought against them and Beat them And what we did in doing that is the people that actually lived there again,
00:12:50.000this is a city with human beings in it and I Always have to tell this story or at least relate to people that you'd be running down the street There'd be guns firing around and you'd kick open the the door to a compound to somebody's house and you'd get in there and there'd be you know a guy a dad working on a car and There'd be two kids kicking a soccer ball and there'd be a mom cooking lunch and And so there's people there and those people wanted us to be there and wanted us to
00:13:20.000defeat the insurgents that were terrorizing them and We did and they were joyous about that and so when you talk about what do I think now when I see Isis the black flag of Isis I mean is there any other?
00:13:34.000More dramatic image then I could tell you then that the black flag of Isis now flies at the government center Ahmadi it's it's it's horrible and it's sickening and they went around and anybody that had had anything to do with the coalition there they went around with a list of names and they murdered all of them and all their families and you know we We as a country We kind of left them hanging and It's
00:14:04.000it's horrible to see that we left them hanging and we instigated a Lot of crazy shit when we took Saddam Hussein out of power Which was probably ultimately a good thing to get rid of that guy.
00:14:16.000There was no question that he was a psychopath and his sons were evil fucks but In creating that vacuum, like when the leadership is gone, you kind of have a responsibility to manage that area now.
00:14:32.000As crazy as that sounds, like people want to say we're not in the business of nation building.
00:14:39.000We're not in the building process or the business of...
00:14:46.000Organizing or structuring a nation building a democracy out of one which did not have one ever But you kind of have to well look what we did in Germany in Japan.
00:14:57.000Yeah We're still in both those countries.
00:14:59.000Yeah, we stayed there and guess what the two you know, what are the two?
00:15:04.000Economic superpowers behind America, you know, I know those two are both in the top five Germany's definitely the head of Europe, you know besides China but Japan and Those are economic superpowers.
00:15:15.000And we formulated their new structure.
00:15:19.000No, there's a lot of resistance in this country.
00:15:21.000There always was a lot of resistance to going to Iraq in the first place, because people didn't understand the connection between 9-11 and Iraq, and it seemed like it was manufactured.
00:15:30.000It seemed like to people on this side that, you know, we're looking at it, and we're looking at Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld and all these chicken hawks that wanted us to go over there, and why?
00:15:41.000But once you're there, you kind of have to have a different approach, don't you?
00:15:48.000Well, there's no doubt you have to have a different approach you have to believe in what you're doing and again when you're number one and every Every soldier or marine or service member will tell you that when they're in combat They're not thinking about you know the strategic mission of the United States of America They're thinking about the guy that's next to them and what they're gonna do to keep that keep their buddies alive And that's that's all there is to and that's true and anyone will tell you that But that being said when you come back from that operation and you have time to think about what you're doing there Then you've got to believe in what you're doing
00:16:18.000and if you don't believe in what you're doing then you're gonna have some serious issues and so for me, you know It was pretty obvious that what we were doing was Was absolutely the right thing.
00:16:28.000I mean you've got Insurgents there that were foreign fighters that want to kill everyone in America.
00:16:39.000They want to do 9-11 over and over again in this country.
00:16:43.000They want to kill us all and so For us to be there fighting them, I am totally on board and was on board and remain that way today.
00:16:53.000Now, these insurgents that came into these places like Ramadi and were taking over the city and killing all these people and torturing all these people, why were they doing that to them?
00:17:03.000It's the same thing that ISIS did when they went back.
00:17:06.000I mean, they want to have a chunk of land.
00:17:08.000At the time, they'd said that Ramadi was going to be the seat of their caliphate.
00:17:12.000It's going to be the capital city of their caliphate.
00:17:16.000So, in a sense, once war started over there, it became a holy war.
00:17:23.000Yes, and it's a holy war, but it's interesting because the people of Iraq, there's people in Iraq, most people in Iraq, when you talk to them, they're normal people that want to have a job,
00:17:40.000Build a new addition on their house, fix the roof, get some good food for dinner that night, raise their kids so that they can take over the family business or whatever.
00:17:50.000They're not a bunch of people running around doing what ISIS is doing.
00:17:54.000But who is the powerful force in Iraq right now?
00:17:58.000Now everyone's scared of ISIS. And one thing about this is because Iraq is...
00:18:08.000They don't have this kind of patriotic feeling that we have in America, which I know it may be dying in many cases, but there's a lot of Americans that still believe America is the greatest country on earth.
00:18:19.000And even if you don't believe it's the greatest country on earth, and even if you see it for all of its faults that it has, you appreciate the fact that in this country you have freedom.
00:18:28.000And so you can kind of fight for that no matter what you're thinking about.
00:18:33.000You're fighting to protect your family.
00:18:35.000Well, in Iraq, they're like, okay, um...
00:18:38.000I'll fight for whoever I'll fight for whoever or support whoever is just gonna allow me to live They don't have the same attitude.
00:18:46.000That's why when Isis came into Ramadi and the Iraqi troops kind of ran away They're like well, we don't know what's gonna happen.
00:18:53.000We don't really they don't have that core belief that they're fighting for and So I think that's where some of the challenges come in and as they grow that They will perform better, but it's definitely going to take, you know, quite a bit of time.
00:19:05.000I think patriotism in America was at its all-time high around September 11th.
00:19:10.000Right after that happened, you never saw more flags.
00:19:13.000I mean, I remember driving down the street and every car had a flag hanging from it.
00:19:26.000Had a good business going on for a while.
00:19:28.000But like a lot of things, people got accustomed to it.
00:19:32.000They got settled in and everything got back down to its normal level.
00:19:37.000So it was this big buzz of patriotism.
00:19:40.000Well, there's a big buzz of patriotism when you feel threatened.
00:19:45.000And we never feel threatened in America.
00:19:49.000Everyone is driving around in a nice big SUV that gets eight miles to the gallon with big air-conditioned blasting.
00:19:56.000They're looking at their iPhone, texting people, socially interacting through the Wi-Fi.
00:20:02.000And they're not concerned about their safety and so when you're not concerned about your safety What is there left to be patriotic when you don't understand what it means to live in fear?
00:20:11.000So yeah September 11th comes and you get attacked and you feel that fear guess what you rally around this This thing, America, that's protected you and your family, but you didn't even think about it before, but now you're thinking about it, and you go, you know what, I'm gonna put a flag up on my vehicle.
00:20:26.000This vehicle that I drive around in complete luxury.
00:20:31.000America is unbelievably luxurious compared to the rest of the world.
00:20:34.000There's also unquestionable evil involved in flying planes into buildings and killing civilians just Randomly haphazardly suicide bombing essentially with a plane right into a building All that was so evil that everybody just there was no there was no gray area in that It was pretty clear.
00:20:53.000It was about as clear as any event ever in human history agree Now, when you found out, I mean, you were already involved in the military when all this was going on.
00:21:38.000Like, where did you develop this sense of patriotism?
00:21:43.000Well, I would say prior to the feeling of patriotism, you know, like I said, I always wanted to be some kind of a commando.
00:21:51.000And I would say that when you join the military, I'd say people that are somewhat patriotic join the military, but when you travel around the world and you're in the military, that kind of confirms your patriotism more than anything else, because you see what the rest of the world is like and how...
00:22:13.000There's all kinds of things that we could do better, and there's things that we've done in the past that we shouldn't have done, and there's things that we'll do in the future that we shouldn't have done.
00:22:21.000But when you compare that with the rest of the world and how the rest of the world lives and what it means to be in an oppressed society, you know, you're extremely thankful to be in America.
00:22:32.000This is once you've already been in the military and already started traveling.
00:22:35.000So this is just, you just had this draw towards it, almost like your destiny.
00:22:44.000It's strange that it just came out of nowhere like there was no like event in your life It just seems like this was just something that it was always you were always attracted to I mean running around the woods as a little kid with BB guns shooting each other and that seemed like a good job And it's funny,
00:23:04.000you know in SEAL teams you don't you don't grow up, you know, you don't you continue with your childhood You know play Time for your whole adult life and it's awesome You know that's the best thing about the SEAL teams is you you get to do what you always wanted to do and they pay you money and you get unlimited ammunition unbelievable types of weapons bombs explosives,
00:23:28.000you know grenades and And they just give it all to you, and they say, get after it.
00:23:34.000Well, they get excited when they find a guy like you.
00:23:36.000Here we got a smart guy who was born to do this, who's really looking forward to it.
00:23:53.000It's even more intense because it's not just you get to play, but only the strong get to play.
00:23:59.000The weak all get weeded out, and what's left is people of similar character.
00:24:06.000That's what I've found most fascinating.
00:24:08.000I think that's one of the things that's so romantic in the public's eye about the idea of the seals or Green Berets or Rangers, people that it's very difficult to get in there and only a select few have the intestinal fortitude, the willpower and the ability to lock on to a task and a goal and get through it.
00:24:29.000Yeah, and then when you're in the SEAL teams, none of that means anything.
00:24:33.000And like all the training and all that selection process, it just doesn't mean anything because you all, that's just the baseline of where everyone's at.
00:24:41.000And so when people talk about this intense training, when you're in the SEAL teams, you don't talk about that training that you go through to get in.
00:24:47.000That's just the baseline for everybody.
00:24:49.000So it's just to make sure that you're not a pussy.
00:25:05.000So you you get through once you get through the Intensity of buds and you you get through you know all the people that are gonna quit and you get through all the training What is life like from there on out like how structured is like training and Physical activity and things like that from there on out,
00:25:26.000you know Again Being in the SEAL teams is awesome.
00:25:31.000It's such a fun job that I literally didn't consider it a job except for maybe 13 months out of my career.
00:25:39.00013 months I worked directly for the Admiral that was in charge of all the SEALs.
00:25:44.000And he's a great guy, and I learned a ton from him and from having that job, but it wasn't a fun job, and even he would tell you it's not a fun job.
00:25:53.000You know, you're wearing a uniform every day, and in the regular SEAL teams, you're wearing a pair of shorts, and you're barely wearing a shirt because you're out there in the field.
00:26:03.000You know or you know getting ready to go in the field So it's it's a great life and you're constantly training You're hanging out with a bunch of guys that are pretty much have the same attitude as you for the most part There's a couple guys that don't cut it and there's some guys that are super studs and you're you're doing your best to emulate them But you're hanging out with a bunch of great guys and you know when I was a young seal well we'd get to Friday and We you know go out have a beer We'd get done.
00:26:43.000And then once the war started, The intensity definitely picked up because, you know, everybody knew that we were going into combat and everyone pushed that much harder.
00:26:54.000That being said, back in the 90s, we used to train really, really hard because there was an unknown element.
00:27:02.000You know, there was an unknown element where you didn't know what was really gonna, you didn't know what combat was really like, so you trained as hard as you possibly could figure out how to train.
00:28:06.000Whatever you have to do to make that happen is kind of on you.
00:28:11.000Although we do do, you know, team, what we call PT, physical training, but we do team PT, but a lot of it is on you as an individual or your smaller element, you know, group of guys, and that's how you got to stay in shape.
00:28:24.000You do not want to be the guy that, you know, can't carry his weight.
00:29:14.000I heard that from him years and years ago.
00:29:18.000Because he was training some SWAT guys up in LA, and I talked to some of those guys, and they said, you know, well, you don't need to go to exhaustion to get stronger.
00:29:32.000You've got to be ready to go out on the battlefield and get after it, so you're not going to crush yourself so hard that you're incapacitated.
00:29:38.000Yeah, he's not a guy that believes in going to failure, right?
00:30:42.000Do you talk them through it while you're doing it?
00:30:44.000Like, defend, get your arm here, look out.
00:30:47.000But, you know, I would actually improve.
00:30:49.000You know, I'd go on deployment and come back and, you know, some guy that maybe I was having good battles with before I left, I'd come back and be better.
00:30:55.000Because all of a sudden you go and work on really good offense against a bunch of strong, you know, psycho seals that don't want to tap.
00:31:11.000He believes that the real way to get better is not to train with people better than you, but to train with people that aren't as good as you and just constantly drill finishes over and over and over again, sharpen them up like a samurai sword.
00:31:23.000And then when you do spar with people that are your level or better, you'll be much better just because you're constantly used to finishing.
00:31:31.000Yeah, and I think there's a combination of both.
00:31:34.000You've got to train with people that are better than you, and you've got to train with people that are worse than you.
00:31:40.000Because the SEAL training that I ran before I got out was not like the SEAL training we see with the guys with the The logs, carrying those around, or boats on the head.
00:31:49.000Like I said, that's the basic training, and no one really cares too much about that once you get in the SEAL teams, because it's just over.
00:31:54.000It's just to smash you in the beginning?
00:31:56.000Just to smash you, make sure, like you said, make sure that you...
00:32:00.000Have the intestinal fortitude to bring it.
00:32:02.000But once you get in the SEAL teams, then you go through something called a workup, and that's when you've got SEAL platoons that are trying to work together, and we do crazy...
00:32:11.000Simulated combat on these guys that is awesome.
00:32:14.000I mean it's it's devastating and what we would have paintball Again, this is like little kid stuff right you get you get awesome paintball guns unlimited paintball rounds we had this this like the best laser tag system that anyone could ever imagine this crazy expensive laser tag system where you could go out and fight each other with laser tag and When you were getting shot at,
00:32:39.000if the rounds weren't theoretically hitting you, then there was a little speaker on your shoulder that would make noises as if rounds were going over your head so that you would know to get down.
00:32:48.000And there'd be explosions going off on these little speakers.
00:32:50.000And then when you'd get back from these training operations, they have little...
00:32:56.000Embedded GPS's in them so you'd put it out on Google Earth and you could watch the whole battle unfold and watch what people did right and wrong and my point in this is that sometimes Many times especially in the beginning when the seals weren't quite up to speed yet They didn't know how to work together that well Three or four or five opposing force SEALs.
00:33:16.000So these are guys that are pretending to be bad guys.
00:33:19.000They would just go out there and murder them all.
00:33:21.000And as these guys got better and started to work together and the leadership started to step up and take command and do a better job of leading, then all of a sudden the SEALs would start to beat the opposing force and annihilate them.
00:33:34.000What an incredible tool to learn how to organize and to stay together and work together as a team.
00:33:43.000Very interesting topic because it's very similar to you know what the UFC did to martial arts because you know as you know in 1991 You know you and I could sit here and talk and you could be a kung-fu guy and I could be an aikido guy and we could be like no my martial arts better and you could be saying the same thing and we could theoretically Debate it all day long,
00:34:04.000but we'd never actually do it And it's different, so in combat, obviously you can't, you know, we can't say, okay, let's find out which one's better, and we're on the same team, but we're just going to kill each other to find out.
00:34:14.000So, the first thing that happened was Simunition, and that's, you know, they basically started paintball, but it's high-speed paintball that, you know, fits in your real gun.
00:34:48.000And you can get pretty confident with your tactics, but your tactics aren't getting tested.
00:34:53.000And so when these great technologies came out, simunition, paintball, and these laser-type systems, it was a complete change.
00:35:01.000And we definitely changed our tactics.
00:35:03.000Our tactics evolved just like fight tactics evolved with the advent of the UFC. And people said, oh...
00:35:08.000This doesn't work the way we thought it did and you know this idea of oh We're just gonna go running into a room and no one's gonna stop no matter what no actually if there's a machine gun Just lay and paint into you as you go in you're stupid if you go run into that room So we've made these simple adjustments, but it was an interesting progression And it definitely imprinted the fact that you have to make your training as realistic as possible And it also it also shows you how people humans have a tendency to To believe in
00:35:38.000what they're doing just because it's kind of what they believe in.
00:35:41.000And, you know, again, I think those traditional martial arts that were so popular, you know, back in the day, people truly believed that, like, no, I will actually stop you with, you know, with my chi.
00:36:24.000And that's what people get lured into.
00:36:26.000You know, our egos lure us into a lot of stuff that we need to watch out for.
00:36:29.000Well, the belief is based on, you know, being taught it by people who also believe it, too.
00:36:35.000And it's so confusing because no one's experienced it in real life, which was why the initial question was, when they used to prepare, like back in Vietnam or, you know, during the first...
00:37:05.000They've been trying to do it for years.
00:37:07.000But what did they used to do during the Vietnam era?
00:37:10.000Go off the experience of guys that had been in World War II in Korea and try and pass that on.
00:37:16.000And luckily, and honestly, you know, being in combat, the basic principles of combat are not these super crazy complex things.
00:37:27.000You know, the most basic principle that we talk about is cover and move, which is if you and I are going to go assault a building over there, I'm gonna take cover, I'm gonna engage that building so that the enemy can't put their heads up, and while I'm shooting at the building, shooting where we think the enemy are,
00:37:42.000you're gonna get up and maneuver into a better position.
00:37:45.000Once you get into a better position, and you get some cover, you're gonna start shooting at the enemy, and that's gonna allow me to move.
00:37:52.000Once I get to a better position, I'll start shooting again, and we'll continue to do that, supporting each other as we move to our target, and then once we get there, we'll kill the bad guys, and it'll be done.
00:38:02.000But there's times where before, you know, in between Vietnam, which is where we had major combat and people learned that cover and move, and guys that were in Vietnam were the people that taught me cover and move.
00:38:13.000Between that time and the time when we started using simunition and the lasers the better products We actually forgot some of those lessons as crazy as that might seem we actually forgot some of these very simple basic lessons of Gunfighting and so it was great to have it back and it was you know when we when we went to combat finally we were More prepared for it Yeah,
00:38:36.000I would imagine that kind of simulation.
00:38:46.000So Simunition is the paint, and then the laser, what is the name brand of that stuff?
00:38:49.000The one that we used was called Ditz, and it was made by Saab.
00:38:54.000And I don't even know if they still make it or if that contract's still going, but it was awesome.
00:38:59.000I like your analogy to martial arts, like testing it in an actual competition.
00:39:06.000Because it would seem that that would be the only way that anybody would ever actually learn what mistakes not to make and how they could easily be replicated in combat.
00:39:15.000And then the repeated actions of doing those over and over again and ingraining them in your mind is probably the only thing that you could draw upon when you're in those intense situations of an actual firefight.
00:39:29.000Yeah, and there's another good comparison.
00:39:31.000I don't know if you've ever heard somebody kind of say this but You know they'll say like let's say I trained some Kung Fu stuff where I'm like an eye attacker and I rip your throat out and all that stuff and you train You know jujitsu Muay Thai wrestling and boxing right so people will say That you're not ready for the fact that I'm gonna poke your eyes out or you're not ready for the fact that I'm gonna Try and grab your throat or whatever and therefore I have an advantage and and that you have some kind of a training scar Because you aren't used
00:40:04.000So if, like I said, if all I do is train to grab your eyes and poke your throat or whatever pressure point type attack, then that means that I'm better prepared for a street conflict.
00:40:19.000As you and I both know, a guy that does that versus a guy that trains in mixed martial arts, boxing, wrestling, Muay Thai, Jiu Jitsu, that guy's gonna destroy this other person in a street fight.
00:40:31.000And the guy will grab for his eyes and then he's gonna get his arm broken off and he's gonna get punched in that 47 times.
00:40:35.000But my point in telling that is that we had the same type of people inside the SEAL teams that said, oh, if you get used to training with paintball, Then you're going to develop training scars from it.
00:40:51.000So you're not going to be used to your regular weapon.
00:40:54.000You're not going to be used to the recoil of a real gun.
00:40:58.000And you're going to have more courage because it's only going against paint.
00:41:04.000While there's some small piece of truth to that, just like there's some small piece of truth to the fact that if you never think about what it's like to be punched while you're doing jujitsu, well then it's going to be a surprise for you the first time you are in guard with someone and they crack you in the face.
00:41:19.000There's some small truth to it, but it's not a reason to throw out, you know, that type of training.
00:41:25.000And the other thing that's good about it is, you know, in jujitsu and Muay Thai and boxing and wrestling, you're going live against another human being that's maneuvering on you and trying to defeat you.
00:41:34.000And when you have paintball or laser, you're going against another human being that's trying to maneuver on you and defeat you.
00:41:39.000So therefore, it's very effective in teaching what real combat is going to be like.
00:41:44.000What was it like the first time you were deployed?
00:42:04.000What was interesting about my first deployment to Iraq was that, again, I was so happy to be in a position where I was a platoon commander, and we were doing real missions, and I was excited and happy about that.
00:42:21.000That doesn't mean I was running around with a smile on my face.
00:42:24.000We had a legit job, and we had to get it done.
00:42:28.000It was also a time where the the insurgents there wasn't an insurgents yet.
00:42:32.000We hadn't even really heard that word in 2003 and so the operations that we did were Relatively simple and our tactical advantage over the enemy was Good enough that we just annihilated them.
00:42:50.000You know, it was like It was like an unfair fight, which is how you want it to be.
00:42:55.000You want to have an unfair fight in combat.
00:42:56.000So we would go in, you know, 2 o'clock in the morning, we'd find out where a bad guy was in some house or some office or some building, and we'd load up our vehicles and go in the middle of the night, blast their door open with big explosive breaching charge, clear their house in about 30 seconds,
00:43:13.000grab them, grab their buddies, bring them all back, interrogate them, find out where their friends are, and go out and do it again.
00:43:21.000And it was like a rockstar deployment.
00:43:22.000We'd come home at three o'clock in the morning and be done and Debrief the operation and get ready to do it the next day.
00:43:30.000We probably were in four or five firefights during that whole deployment a couple ambushes and I had one guy get get wounded not very bad and So it was fun.
00:43:50.000And the contrast comes when you go to my next deployment, the next deployment to Ramadi, which was completely different.
00:44:01.000And on that deployment, everything bad that can happen to A guy in a leadership position or an element happened to us.
00:44:20.000Everything bad that could happen happened and So it was it was radically different than my first deployment So your first deployment was in a sense a lot like what people expected the war to go like After we had experienced Desert Storm Desert Storm,
00:44:37.000which was just this overwhelming success Just the only casualties were when that one Scud missile had hit a barracks It was just that was what America thought war was like well, this is how good we are at it right now We just go over there and we kill everybody and we lose a couple people and we're real sad about that,
00:44:58.000but we wrapped it up tight so Your second deployment What was that like and how did it begin?
00:45:10.000Well it began with our deployment orders changing so we were literally two weeks from going on deployment so now my first deployment to Iraq I was what's called a platoon commander I had 15 or 20 guys underneath me depending on What time during the deployment it was.
00:45:30.000We jokingly called ourselves Baghdad SWAT. Because that's what we did.
00:45:34.000I just kind of described what those missions were like.
00:45:37.000My second deployment now I was what's called a task unit commander and I had two of those seal platoons with 15 to 20 guys that were underneath me and Then we had another 70 60 or 70 support personnel so these are people that do Intel people that man the radios people that Clean and repair our weapons and people that keep the camp running all that so it's it's it's about a hundred guys but
00:46:07.000there's only 35 or 40 seals and We found out about two weeks before we went on deployment our deployment changed instead of going to Baghdad and really doing more Baghdad SWAT operations we Went we were told we were going to Ramadi and I was again People always say,
00:46:27.000you know, I can't believe you thought that and I can't believe how twisted you are and I can't believe what a sick individual you are and etc, etc, etc But yes, I was extremely Happy and motivated that we were going to Ramadi because it was the worst place in Iraq and that is exactly where I wanted to be my whole life So yes,
00:46:42.000I was fired up to go there Just so crazy that I mean it's so counterintuitive to the way most people think I guess so.
00:46:52.000And I hung around with a bunch of guys that thought the same damn thing as me.
00:47:35.000And the SEAL teams and the Rangers and the Special Forces does a very good job of attracting the type of people that you're talking about.
00:47:46.000The type of people that are fired up to do that job.
00:47:48.000Not encouraging it and growing it like you like the it seems like the amount of Camaraderie and the intensity of the friendships and the bond the brotherhood that you develop with those people just intensifies it all.
00:48:04.000Yeah, it's a big gang It's a big it's a big awesome gang that you're a part of that's badass and you're a part of this fraternity this brotherhood and So yeah, they definitely Fuel the fire and and I should say it shouldn't say they fuel the fire we fuel the fire We're we are the fire,
00:48:24.000you know the guys that are there the guys that I worked with they're they're the fired up guys that Are completely ready to do this job.
00:48:34.000You're in Ramadi totally different situation than Baghdad Totally different situation than Baghdad and immediately you realize this Immediately.
00:48:45.000We were going, I mean, I think we went to the first memorial service for an American within, you know, 24 hours of being on the ground there.
00:48:58.000My camp got attacked the, I don't know, maybe the third or fourth night that we were there.
00:49:04.000Every guy was on the roof of our building shooting back at bad guys that were shooting at us.
00:49:10.000And then we started conducting operations almost immediately.
00:49:15.000And the operations were just radically different.
00:49:18.000I mean, the enemy owned the downtown area of Ramadi.
00:49:23.000They were the dominant force down there.
00:49:26.000So whereas before, you'd be going through kind of semi-permissive environment in Baghdad, meaning, you know, it's a bunch of civilians, and they just wanted to get out of your way, and then you'd go and find this bad guy.
00:49:39.000Well, in Ramadi, the bad guys were going to find you, and it was different.
00:50:30.000So the occupation of Iraq was not the driving force behind this.
00:50:35.000So once you get there and once you realize right away, it's different.
00:50:39.000You're experiencing casualties at a level that was unheard of in Baghdad and you are engaging with an enemy that's very prepared and overwhelming.
00:50:51.000And they did, they were similar to us, meaning they did like first world country type stuff.
00:50:58.000They had medical evacuation plans where one of their guys would get wounded, you'd see him get evacuated.
00:51:03.000You know, you could watch on the screens, you could watch what was happening, a vehicle would come in and Gather them up and take wounded guys away.
00:51:35.000It was expected, but it's hard to mentally picture what that's going to be like when you're going to go up against guys that are that prepared.
00:51:45.000So this was tactically and As far as like the strategy that was involved to try to take a city like that this was a fairly new experience For the United States military, right?
00:52:00.000We'd never what other mean other than what Somalia like what other urban war had the United States engaged in like this where you're in a city well, I mean obviously World War two had all kinds of carbon conflict and and In Vietnam, there was portions,
00:52:16.000you know, the Battle of Way City was a huge urban conflict.
00:52:20.000Somalia was definitely urban combat, but you're right in the fact that we weren't going in there to try and stay.
00:52:26.000And that was one of the biggest differences or changes in strategies that the US military had that turned the war around.
00:52:37.000As the as the insurgents grew and it's 2004 2005 the insurgents started getting more and more unified and better and more well-trained and more organized in America what we did was kind of Go back to our strong bases.
00:53:00.000In Iraq in 2005, 2006, if you went to a base in, let's say, Baghdad International Airport, there's a huge U.S. military base, there was, you know, subway, The sandwich shop, Subway, Starbucks, these places had become little outcroppings of America.
00:53:18.000And so what we did when the insurgency got worse and worse and worse, and also the public opinion of the war went down and down and down, and all of a sudden we're saying, okay, we're going to minimize casualties as much as possible.
00:53:34.000We kind of said, okay, we're not going to take huge risks anymore.
00:53:37.000We're going to pull back to our bases.
00:53:38.000We're going to try and support the Iraqis as much as we can.
00:53:41.000Let them go out and try and accomplish missions and we still did do missions, but we definitely had Strong move back to these big bases well There was a guy, there were several people,
00:53:58.000He wrote this, you know, the counterinsurgency manual.
00:54:01.000Now what you had was you went from this idea of we were fighting kind of terrorists, and all of a sudden we were fighting an organized insurgency.
00:54:10.000And so now instead of going out and grabbing a bad guy and then coming back, the new strategy, and it was implemented in Ramadi by a guy named Colonel Sean McFarland, Was seize, clear, hold, and build.
00:54:25.000Which means you're going to go into these enemy-controlled neighborhoods, you're going to take buildings, you're going to hold those buildings, you're going to build them into your own forts, and you're going to have American and Iraqi soldiers live in those enemy-controlled territories until the enemy was gone.
00:54:39.000Had that ever been implemented before?
00:54:41.000It had been implemented in Talifar in Northern Iraq by a guy named H.C. McMaster, who's another kind of legendary military army colonel at the time.
00:54:53.000All these guys are generals now because they're awesome guys.
00:55:15.000You're saying we're gonna go into these enemy-controlled neighborhoods where there haven't been American or coalition forces for a year, year and a half, two years?
00:55:23.000You're saying we're gonna go in there?
00:55:24.000Right before we arrived in Ramadi, there was a road that the Marine Corps tried to penetrate down.
00:55:48.000So this new strategy to go in there and push in there was considered to be, by many people, was considered to be too risky.
00:55:58.000Too dangerous and and really in some cases crazy like this is a crazy strategy We haven't been able to get down there and now you're saying we're gonna go down there and live there so it was a it was a very dynamic change so this is a Gigantic gritty boots on the ground approach to taking over a city like one step at a time one building at a time That's it Wow That had to be insane Yeah.
00:56:29.000Is there any documentary footage of this?
00:56:31.000Were there any embedded journalists or anything like that?
00:57:56.000So now we get to Ramadi and the mission changed coming down from the special operations forces that were in charge of all special operations in Iraq and the new mission was to The new mission,
00:58:11.000I'm trying to think of the exact, was to train and fight company and platoon-sized elements of Iraqi soldiers.
00:58:19.000Train and fight company and platoon-sized elements of Iraqi soldiers.
00:58:22.000And when they say fight, that means, like, that's a verb saying we're going to fight with them.
00:58:28.000So, all of a sudden, I'm telling my guys, hey, you know how you're used to working with a bunch of SEALs?
00:58:33.000You're gonna now, when you go out, the majority of the guys you're gonna be with are Iraqi soldiers.
00:59:12.000This is the worst battlefield SEALs I've fought on since Vietnam, and you want us to go out there with a bunch of Iraqi soldiers watching our back?
01:00:10.000Why let's answer that question Oh Newsflash if we don't do it if we don't get the Iraqi soldiers trained up and ready to Maintain the security in their own country then who's gonna do it?
01:00:45.000We're doing it because if we don't do it, if we don't get these guys up to speed, if we don't teach them how to defend themselves and how to defeat this enemy, they're never going to be able to do it.
01:00:55.000And we'll be mired in this conflict forever.
01:00:58.000Once they understood that strategic picture, they were able to get their head around it and then slowly accept what we were doing.
01:01:07.000How common were their complications dealing with the Iraqi soldiers?
01:01:14.000And did you guys have to take steps in order to watch over them to make sure?
01:01:19.000I mean you're talking about guys shooting guys in the back, shooting Americans in the back.
01:01:22.000Did you have Plans in place to make sure that someone was watching them at all times.
01:01:29.000Yeah, so you didn't you couldn't treat them like did someone did they speak English?
01:01:34.000No, we had interpreters and oh, yeah, it's a nightmare and and we would have Some of the Iraqi soldiers some of the some of the leadership of the Iraqi soldiers would be very good Some of the grunts would be very good and someone would be just disastrous and did we have to change?
01:01:48.000Yeah We had to change our tactics so that we didn't use the terms left and right.
01:01:54.000Because they didn't understand left and right.
01:02:40.000Yeah, I reserve the term savages for them.
01:02:43.000So what steps did you guys have to take to ensure that the SEALs and the other American soldiers were protected in working with these people?
01:02:52.000I mean, you just had to keep your eye on them.
01:02:54.000I mean, and honestly, at this point, you saw this happen a lot more in Afghanistan, which was the, what do they call it?
01:03:08.000Forget what they have a term for it, but when though when the friendly allegedly friendly Afghan soldier turns and shoots everyone in the back That happened more later in Afghanistan and when we were in Iraq It was pretty seldom that it happened, but we just had to be aware of it We had to you know you always had a guy that was like standing off the firing line and making sure that no one was you know pulling their weapon out and aiming at Americans and So that was a job.
01:03:31.000Yeah, we just you got to keep an eye on these guys.
01:03:33.000You absolutely had to keep an eye on these guys.
01:03:36.000And the other I mean and just again because there's dichotomy and everything at the same time you'd have some guy that was you know some Iraqi soldier that was willing to take a bullet for your buddy and so It's that's what makes war so complex and confusing is it's not cut and dry and it never is So how did it start?
01:03:57.000Once you started this seize, clear, hold, and build.
01:04:03.000It was a tough fight, basically, with every one of these combat outposts.
01:04:07.000That's what they ended up calling these combat outposts.
01:04:10.000Every one of them was a pretty tough fight.
01:04:21.000And so you set up a perimeter around the building, keep people stationed in them, guns at the windows, looking out constantly.
01:04:29.000And it would be, we'd take the building down.
01:04:32.000And then they would do a massive construction project in the middle of a combat zone.
01:04:36.000So these army engineers, God bless them all, would roll down there with their bulldozers and they'd put these big concrete barriers up and they'd put sandbags in all the windows and they'd build machine gun nests on top.
01:04:48.000And again, they're doing this in the middle of like mayhem.
01:04:51.000And then you'd have this secure combat outpost and while they were doing that this is sort of was our our addition to this type of operation Was while they were doing this big construction project project obviously the situation was very vulnerable for the American forces and so what we would do is I would push our seals Out into perimeter buildings that were maybe a 200 or 300 yards away and so when the enemy would come to attack We'd kill him What
01:05:21.000a crazy scene that must have been, to be taking these buildings and then reinforcing them and then turning them into military bases.
01:05:28.000And then one after another, you're doing this too.
01:05:49.000And so how many buildings did you guys wind up taking overall?
01:05:55.000Probably a total of like ten combat outposts, each one having two, three, or four buildings.
01:06:00.000And again, let me clarify, when I say we, I'm talking about this massive effort of the 11AD, which is the 1st Brigade, 1st Armored Division, and all the battalions that were underneath them, including one Marine Corps battalion.
01:06:14.000And the reason I'm pointing that out, Joe, is...
01:06:19.000Those guys were just unbelievable heroes.
01:07:04.000Kids you know because you know you're talking about earlier how The seals you know guys like me.
01:07:10.000This is what we want to do well these guys Didn't all necessarily have that attitude and as a matter of fact the guys that were in Ramadi with us when we first got there the They were reserve unit out of Pennsylvania, the 228 iron soldiers.
01:07:27.000These guys were teachers, like what you see when they talk about these reservists.
01:07:31.000These guys were teachers and professors and, you know, bakers, and they had real jobs in the real world and wanted to get home to their family, and yet they were there grinding it out against a hardened enemy.
01:07:41.000And so, yeah, it's a crazy thing to see, and it's very humbling.
01:07:53.000How long did this battle go on the battle for Ramadi?
01:07:59.000Well, we got there, you know the like I said the 228 had been there for 14 months 14 months on the ground lost around a hundred guys.
01:08:08.000I think 94 And then the 1-1 AD came in in May and implemented Seize clear hold and build and by the time I left October 21st 2006 and by the by January of 2007 the battle was for most for the most part over and these enemy attacks that had been When we were there 30 to 50 a day went
01:08:39.000down to like one a day and then one a week and then one a month and And you know I have pictures of Probably about six to nine months after we left, we got pictures that guys sent back to us of.
01:08:54.000They were running road races down the worst, what were the worst areas of Ramadi.
01:09:11.000And the people of Ramadi that we had fought to support and help were joyous.
01:09:16.000We're they had a stable city to live in and we're you know ready to carry on with their lives see I think stories like this get left out of the mainstream narrative of course they do they most people me included just don't know about it aren't aware of it have a very insulated idea of What this war was about what happened over there and what are the pros and cons of this war?
01:09:43.000What are the pros and cons of taking a city like this and turning it into a relatively safe place?
01:09:51.000Relatively, it was definitely a safe place.
01:09:53.000There was less murders there than there was in Detroit.
01:10:26.000It's very difficult because, you know, it's really easy to slip into, like, just a straight John J. Rambo, you know, there are no friendly civilians.
01:10:45.000It's weird because they'll clump the people of Iraq.
01:10:48.000They'll clump those people together as a group, and they have the wrong impression of what those people are like.
01:10:56.000And guys that have been to Iraq and have gone into houses and talked to the local populace there and broke bread with them and drank their tea, you're like, oh, these people definitely wanted us there.
01:11:08.000When I hear this thing about that they didn't want us there and we were occupying, it's like, oh, no.
01:11:13.000There was there was times where they we'd kill an insurgent and they would cheer They would cheer like thank you.
01:11:19.000Thank you for killing that person He was a terrorist and he was you know trying to trying to rape my daughter They were happy we were there What is Ramadi like now?
01:11:31.000It's been overrun by ISIS. They keep saying now that there's gonna be an effort by the Iraqi military to take it back.
01:12:02.000That's one of the things that again, you know and leadership Leadership is such an important thing.
01:12:13.000It's such an important thing because it really does change.
01:12:18.000It changes every variable in a situation.
01:12:22.000And so when you have good leaders You can win.
01:12:28.000And I don't know who in particular is in charge of this Iraqi force that's going in there.
01:12:33.000The Iraqis have some very strong leadership.
01:12:36.000And if they've got the right person in position, they will be able to take it back.
01:12:43.000America absolutely has incredible military leaders, some incredible military leaders.
01:12:49.000And when you have to step up and lead an assault like that on a city, I mean, American leadership would absolutely make a change and would be extremely positive for the situation on the ground.
01:13:06.000Do you think that America should go back into Iraq?
01:13:13.000Well, first of all, we're already back in Iraq.
01:13:18.000This is a, and I hate to answer your blunt question with a philosophical answer, but war is very difficult and very tragic and very evil in its own right.
01:13:39.000And so, You should be very, very cautious about pulling that trigger and initiating a war.
01:13:51.000Because horrible things are going to happen.
01:13:58.000Enemy are going to be killed Friendly are going to be killed Americans are going to be killed Civilians are going to be killed this idea that we're going to go into a war in an urban environment And we're not going to kill any civilians.
01:14:10.000No civilians are going to die and you have to understand that And I talk about this when people ask me this question There is two types of will That you have to have if you're gonna go to war two types of will One is the will to kill people and Like I said,
01:14:35.000it's gonna be enemy and you're gonna focus as much as you can on killing the enemy and Some civilians are gonna die there.
01:14:44.000That is what is going to happen and you have to understand that that is part of what you are getting into so you have to have you have to have the will to kill and You also have to have the will to die because Americans are going to die and Young men are going to come home in coffins and that's a horrible
01:15:14.000thing And so if you're going to go to war and You should be going to war with a clear vision to win.
01:15:50.000But if we're hesitant, And if we don't have the will Then we should stand by Until we develop that will and we can sit outside and we can shape and we can we can try and shape events which we should We should have a leadership role in the world.
01:16:09.000We should be looking out for American interests.
01:16:11.000I know that sounds like taboo language in this day and age but I We're America and we should look out for American interests around the world.
01:16:49.000I mean at the height it was probably even close to 200,000.
01:16:52.000What would it take to develop that will that you talk of?
01:16:57.000Do you think that the United States needs to see some other Paris-like event?
01:17:04.000Mean we already had September 11th They killed 3,000 of our people on our home soil But that was 14 years ago and for a lot of people that might as well be another world true true I I got asked the other day about the warning signs.
01:17:27.000Are we paying enough attention to the warning signs or are there enough warning signs?
01:17:51.000For people like me that are completely on the outside of the military, it seems like ISIS came out of nowhere.
01:17:57.000It seems like Once Arab Spring started happening, we start pulling out of Iraq.
01:18:03.000All of a sudden you start hearing about the ISL or ISIL or ISIS. They used the term ISI, which was Islamic State Iraq.
01:18:16.000They used that in, I think, 2007 was the first time they used that as they started to take area over in...
01:18:23.000Syria, they threw the L on the end of it, you know, which is Levant, which is the historical name for that region.
01:18:29.000And the other one is Syria, the S. So it's the same people.
01:18:34.000It's the same people that were there and will continue to be there until we route them out.
01:18:39.000What I was getting at was that it wasn't something that anybody here had heard about as an organized thing.
01:18:46.000We had heard about insurgents in Iraq, but we had never heard of it with a name, like ISIS. Now that it's a name, it's like an identifiable enemy.
01:18:57.000And when you're in a war against terrorism, one of the things that I think kind of freaks Americans out Especially those that don't have a connection with the military, is this idea of a war against terrorism is this open-ended proposition.
01:19:34.000And when we've pulled out of Iraq, and we're planning on pulling out of Afghanistan, and then we see ISIS build up and get bigger and stronger and scarier, and we see what happened in Paris, and we see what happened in Lebanon and in Nigeria,
01:19:49.000and we see these terrorist attacks, and we're like, well, when is this happening?
01:19:55.000Is there ever going to be a point where we have a soldier and his girlfriend kissing in the street?
01:20:25.000They're aiming it at, you know, disenchanted people all around the world that can cling on to something that will give them some sort of identity.
01:20:39.000Yeah, that's one of the most bizarre things about this when you see people like these young girls from the UK joining Isis and you know, they're escaping their country and and going over there and joining Isis like What what is happening here?
01:20:54.000Like how disenchanted do you have to be where that looks attractive to you?
01:20:59.000Yeah, and the two girls I'm sure you saw this and yeah the two poster girls for Isis one of them died Three to six months ago, and they just got the latest report on the other one that was trying to escape ISIS, and they beat her to death.
01:21:27.000Someone hit me the other day on Twitter You know This is an idea and you can't bomb ideas was the was the statement to me and You know I try and avoid like getting into these massive sort of political debates or whatever Especially with 140 characters.
01:21:46.000Yeah and that being said Nazism was an idea that was defeated through military force.
01:21:57.000Slavery in America was an idea that was defeated by military force.
01:22:03.000Imperial Japan was an idea and a religion that was defeated by military force.
01:22:09.000And none of those ideas would have stopped without military force.
01:22:15.000And this is an idea That can be defeated with bombs.
01:22:20.000And this is also an idea that unfortunately in this country gets connected to all Muslims.
01:22:26.000The idea behind what these people are doing gets connected to all Muslims.
01:22:31.000When in reality, most of the Muslims in the world, they don't want something like ISIS to be in control.
01:22:38.000They don't want to be in a perpetual state of war.
01:22:40.000They don't want to have to worry about these quote unquote savages and what they're doing.
01:22:46.000Yeah, I mean the the Isis has killed Hundreds of thousands of well.
01:22:52.000I don't know what the number is But we know that Isis has killed thousands and thousands and thousands of Muslims You know they went into Ramadi and killed hundreds and hundreds of Muslims That had worked in some way with the coalition forces so that they could have a peaceful city.
01:23:06.000They murdered them all So let's say Donald Trump becomes president And he listens to your podcast with Tim Ferriss and he reads your book.
01:23:14.000And he goes, Jocko, I'm coming to you for advice.
01:24:11.000People get this idea that this is some crazy, complex situation, and it's going to be all hard and all this.
01:24:19.000I could pull together like two first lieutenants from the Marine Corps, which is like the junior officer in the Marine Corps, and say, come up with a plan to defeat ISIS. You got two hours.
01:24:58.000Because if you got kids and you see, again, a malignant cancer on humanity that is growing unchecked, we're like the master surgeons that have the ability to go in and eradicate this disease.
01:25:17.000And instead of doing that, we're just not doing anything.
01:25:21.000So do you blame the current administration?
01:25:24.000Do you blame the climate of the American public right now?
01:25:30.000The political climate where people just don't want to be involved in another war or enter into another prolonged interaction?
01:25:37.000I think people are always looking for the easiest way out and going in is a hard decision to make.
01:26:39.000Don't know if we have enough drones to get the job done and They're effective, but I mean a drone is gonna take out.
01:26:46.000I don't know 20 20 bad guys So there'd be a lot of drones in action.
01:26:50.000I don't know if we have that kind of capability yet But we will Someday yeah, well someday we'll have a robot army and we'll be dealing with some terminator type situation, right?
01:27:01.000Yes, but right now It's almost like we need to get smacked, like something needs to happen before we hit back.
01:27:09.000And I cannot in good conscience agree with you because I don't even want to say those words.
01:27:36.000And again, for some reason, the warning signs, which can be seen, you know, anywhere you look, we're ignoring them.
01:27:45.000I think people, speaking for myself and speaking for the people that I come in contact with, I think people are becoming more and more concerned about ISIS on a pretty much daily basis.
01:27:55.000I think one thing that Paris did do is it woke a lot of people up as to possibilities.
01:28:00.000It's something like this can happen and that this isn't the end and this is this is ramping up and that if they have the kind of resources to pull off something like the Paris attacks, who knows where this is going.
01:29:03.000He's a gangster That's that's like scary with his thought process and at the same time like props the guy's a gangster and he's gonna smash some people You've got now turkey in the mix.
01:29:15.000I mean, it's just a very it's a complex situation that's getting more complex all the time and The scariest part about it is that America is not in a leadership position.
01:29:29.000We are not influencing the world the way we once did.
01:29:33.000People are not looking to us as the leaders.
01:29:38.000We're in the backseat, and that's scary.
01:29:41.000We should be in a leadership position.
01:29:45.000It's not bad to have a benevolent country And I know people are gonna go crazy, but a generally benevolent country that's sitting here, you know, given billions of dollars of aid around the world,
01:31:00.000What kind of a president do you think would change that?
01:31:05.000somebody that has a better understanding of The nature of the world like a John McCain type guy.
01:31:13.000Yeah, maybe like it like like, you know, again, I'm not To sit here and try and think of who the best presidential candidate would be I mean, we have a hard time figuring that out in America as a whole But again, you look at a guy like you look at a guy like Putin and you look at a guy like Obama You know Putin's My whole existence has been geared towards this.
01:33:24.000I think the concept of a benevolent leader, of a benevolent nation, you know, if you do concede that the world will always be in chaos, and there will always be, at least in terms of, like, foreseeable future, In the next hundred years or whatever we're in until something crazy happens I mean it would have to be something the monumental life-changing that stops conflict all around the world You'd have to if you were a rational Pragmatic person you're looking at the future.
01:33:54.000You have to say well, we're gonna have conflict especially if you look at places like you know the Congo or you know parts of the Middle East where people don't count and there's places where like you would have to educate them to the point where The future would look radically different than the present,
01:34:12.000So if that's the case, if conflict will be something that we're going to have to mitigate no matter what, wouldn't you want to be the one that gets to decide?
01:34:23.000Wouldn't you want to be the person in the position of power?
01:34:53.000It's going to be difficult, and it's extremely difficult to get good at it.
01:34:57.000Two, if you do get into a situation, you want to be the one who gets to choose whether or not someone gets hurt.
01:35:05.000You don't want to be helpless, because being helpless is a terrible place to be.
01:35:10.000But it doesn't necessarily mean that you're going to go out and fuck people up.
01:35:13.000And that's sort of the same idea on a macro scale that you would look at the concept of America being a benevolent entity or a benevolent superpower.
01:35:54.000You can tell by the way someone carries themselves what You know what they have and what they know what they understand, you know I got asked the other day if you were president You know you asked me if I was got advice.
01:36:07.000They said if you were president What would you do with Isis and I said if I was president Isis would not exist President Jocko they make it happen they would not exist because We would have a presence in the world that would prevent the growth of this kind of ideology.
01:36:27.000But what kind of a reaction do you think you would have from the American public, from the insulated American public?
01:36:35.000I mean, this is probably one of the most sensitive times ever.
01:36:38.000In terms of, they throw around the term Islamophobia, if you even criticize anyone that just happens to be Muslim.
01:36:45.000I mean, we're in a strange time when it comes to incredibly sensitive, maybe hypersensitive people that maybe don't have a good grip on reality.
01:37:28.000So, how that gets twisted in some world to where, you know, we're not, where evil is completely beyond me.
01:37:38.000Well, I think because there is legit Islamophobia out there in the world, just like there's a legit hatred of Christians, there's legit hatred of Mormons.
01:37:48.000I mean, you're going to find groups of people that are hated.
01:37:50.000And there's also people that aren't willing to look deeper into some...
01:37:56.000Some global issue if you have a global issue that there's these people that call themselves Isis or ISIL or whatever they call themselves and you know, they call themselves the Islamic State you owe Islam Oh, Islam's bad Muslims are bad Muslims are evil.
01:38:11.000I was watching something there was a Sam Harris had posted up on Twitter There was this guy who is proposed believe it was in Virginia.
01:38:20.000He was at a like County One of those meetings where you're talking about building something in the town.
01:38:29.000And he was talking about putting up a mosque.
01:38:33.000And these people were screaming at him that Muslims are evil and your evil cult is not going to come into our town.
01:38:39.000And you're trying to invade our town and get out of here with your evil cult.
01:39:01.000But there's a big difference between something like that and what's going on in other parts of the world with ISIS. A giant, giant difference.
01:39:10.000And I think that when people want to throw around that term Islamophobia, I think a lot of times what they're doing is they're just trying to be correct.
01:39:19.000They're trying to be politically correct, socially correct, they're trying to be sensitive, and they're trying to let everybody know that they're not racist, that they're not xenophobic, that they're not Islamophobic or whatever, that they're open-minded and progressive, so they're throwing around these terms.
01:40:20.000How I'm a person that could be called an Islamophobist is kind of a stretch, I think.
01:40:26.000Yeah, well, rationally, but you're talking about people that aren't necessarily rational.
01:40:31.000Well, you know, people paint their own layers onto things and make them into what they're not.
01:40:38.000Well, I think it's symptomatic of what's going on with our culture, too, is that these hypersensitive, oversimplistic ideas and people that would say these things like this don't have a real grip Like you have of what it's like over there.
01:40:58.000And I don't think anybody does other than people like you that have been over there and have been in combat.
01:41:05.000I think that's one of the problems that we have.
01:41:08.000We're behaving like children in a lot of ways because we really have never had to live on our own.
01:41:14.000Yeah, and it's actually very similar to what we were talking about earlier with the traditional martial arts, where you can sit there in your fantasy world and think that your chi is going to protect you, and that as long as you spread love,
01:41:30.000you're going to be protected because your chi is strong.
01:41:34.000And until you've been in a fistfight, you're gonna believe that.
01:41:38.000And so that's kind of like what you're saying.
01:41:40.000Do we need to get into a fistfight before America realizes like, oh no, there's real problems in the world that need to be handled.
01:41:46.000This is one of the weirdest times ever, but I have a bit in my act about...
01:41:49.000This is the first time ever where someone broke into the White House, or if you know that, in 2014. It was the first time anybody gained access, and there was a woman guarding the front door.
01:41:58.000It was an unarmed woman guarding the front door, and a woman who was in charge of Secret Service.
01:42:05.000One of my favorite parts was there was an article written about when the guy knocked the chick over and ran inside, and they said it was reviewed and gender wasn't an issue.
01:42:16.000Well, okay, yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
01:42:19.000Like, you mean if Brock Lesnar was guarding the door, the same thing would have happened.
01:42:22.000The guy would have knocked him over, and no one would have ever caught the guy.
01:42:36.000If you're going to make the president sleep in a house that's in the park, you should probably have a team of fucking assassins surrounding that building at all times, and you should keep a lookout for dudes that are sprinting across the lawn knocking over chicks that are guarding the front door.
01:42:51.000There's no doubt about it, but it's the same thing.
01:42:53.000It's like we're so soft and we're so used to Being in this insulated world that we have here this nice sweet bubble where we drive our eight mile per hour or eight mile per gallon SUVs I don't know how you would ever Really illuminate all these problems that you're bringing up I don't I don't know how you could get these I mean to the head of the average person like in World War two Like you and me if we were 13 years old we weren't old enough to serve
01:43:23.000We still knew that there was a war going on because we couldn't eat steak.
01:43:27.000We couldn't use any metal We were gardening at night.
01:43:30.000We were shutting off the lights like we were impacted all of America was impacted and At the height of the Battle of Ramadi, the height of it, at the height of the war of Iraq, at the height of the war in Afghanistan, Americans at the mall were not impacted at all.
01:43:47.000Not only that, they weren't even allowed to show photographs of coffins.
01:43:51.000It's like the first time ever in the history of the United States, the history of the United States taking pictures during wartime where they made it illegal to show photos of coffins.
01:44:43.000At the 20-year mark, I... I had a bunch of different things that kind of weighed in.
01:44:51.000You know, I had a family that I hadn't seen or didn't know pretty much.
01:44:56.000So you start thinking, well, you know, maybe I should pay attention to them a little bit.
01:45:03.000Completed sort of my last real job operational job in the SEAL teams and It was gonna be a long time before I was in command again of a SEAL team or of something that was important from a warfighting perspective so that was kind of kind of another thing that I looked at that was tough and and Yeah,
01:45:45.000We started this company where we go and work with civilian companies doing leadership and management and you know my buddy Leif that I was talking about earlier who was one of the platoon commanders that was with me in Ramadi and you know he he had run into a company I had run into a company and they asked us to do some stuff and the next thing you know I gave one kind of leadership training to a company,
01:46:09.000and then they said, come back and train all of our divisions.
01:46:11.000And then the parent company of that company watched me and said, hey, can you come to our CEO Summit?
01:46:17.000And then went to the CEO Summit, and then a bunch of those CEOs said, hey, can you come?
01:46:21.000And the next thing you know, I'm doing this.
01:46:25.000Like when you're doing these speeches or you're setting things up, how do you organize them?
01:46:31.000Obviously, your lifetime was in the military.
01:46:34.000So what was it about you and about what you brought to the table that was so attractive to them?
01:46:41.000I think it's because the principles of leadership, and that's what we talk about, and that's what we teach is leadership.
01:46:47.000The principles of leadership do not change.
01:46:49.000Whether your mission is to capture or kill bad guys, or whether your mission is to manufacture something or sell something or produce something, you've got a group of people, a group of individuals.
01:47:03.000And they're gonna be diverse, they're gonna be different, they're gonna have different intelligence levels, they're gonna have different personalities, they're gonna have different goals, they're gonna have different motivations, and you gotta take all those people and unify them and try and get them to accomplish a mission in the most effective and efficient manner.
01:47:22.000That's leadership and it doesn't like I said that those principles that we used in combat don't change regardless of what the mission is and But what's good, you know, and I said this earlier Life is like combat but amplified and intensified in combat combat is like life but amplified and intensified and and that means when when we tell a story like a leadership story and About combat,
01:47:49.000it's so obvious what the principle was.
01:47:54.000Whereas in the business world, it might take six months or a year or maybe you barely even notice what the failure was.
01:48:01.000And when we make those stark examples from combat, people go, oh, I see how we're failing in this too.
01:48:09.000That's that's why I think people really took hold of of what we did and how we put it across So this was something that you were approached to do This wasn't like an idea that you had had and you thought about like this would be my new thing Yeah, and I mean regardless of like all this Garbage that I talk in my life and I've always telling people to like plan and be prepared Yeah,
01:48:28.000I almost completely fell into this with the fact that you know someone said hey can you come and talk to my people about leadership and I said well, yeah, I've been talking about leadership for a You know, last several years in the SEAL teams and I've been in a leadership position in some pretty tough situations.
01:49:02.000You know, we get a lot of positive feedback about those.
01:49:04.000But then sometimes we'll go in with a company, and we've done like two-year contracts with companies where we've trained everybody that they have, and we get all their leadership aligned on the same page.
01:49:12.000And we'll go in, you know, for maybe an assessment.
01:49:33.000I mean, the basic, like I said, the basic principles are always the same, but some organizations have different problems than other organizations.
01:49:41.000They all have the same, you know, five, seven problems, you know, whatever that number is.
01:49:47.000Some of them are really bad at this, or really good at this, or they're failing here, but they're winning here.
01:49:52.000So we got to go in, check them out, see what the issue is, and then we get it turned around.
01:50:03.000Well number one I can talk about combat all day long and I can talk about and even more than that I can talk about leadership all day long because it's it's it's the it's the most challenging thing the most challenging thing About being in combat in a leadership position is not you know Trying to figure out what the enemy is going to do and trying to trying to organize a good plan the most challenging thing is dealing with all these human beings That's the challenging thing is getting these guys and girls Do what they need to do what
01:50:33.000you need them to do to get them to believe in it?
01:50:36.000That's what's challenging and we definitely learned Lessons positive and negative, you know, that's one thing about our book that people have got a lot of feedback is This book isn't like, hey, look what we did, look how awesome we are.
01:50:49.000No, this book is, a lot of those chapters in that book are, hey, this is what we screwed up.
01:51:36.000Well, when you're talking about combat, you're talking about people organizing and staying together and figuring out how to lead, you're talking about these extreme consequences, the most extreme ever.
01:51:46.000And when you have these extreme consequences, obviously when there's a lot on the line, people are going to focus.
01:51:52.000And some people are going to fall apart, and some people are going to pull together, but you're going to get people that understand the gravity of the situation.
01:52:01.000It would seem to me It would be much harder to impart that into people in the business world.
01:53:09.000And so that's why it does translate, because business people relate to that amount of pressure, and they understand how it feels to have that bearing down on them.
01:53:17.000It just seems to me, for a guy like you, that maybe you'd be even more attracted to going into business than you would be to teaching people how to lead their businesses better.
01:53:29.000Yeah, and we, I mean, it is a business.
01:54:36.000People always get mad at me because I say this all the time to interesting guests, but this is not something that's difficult to do and you'd be fucking great at it.
01:54:43.000And I think that your perspective on the military and your perspective on our situation overseas, I think would be very unusual, very unusual and very educated.
01:54:55.000And I just think there's no one out there that's doing it like you could do it.
01:55:02.000Well, you're not the first person to say that to me.
01:55:04.000As a matter of fact, when Tim Ferriss, we got done with the podcast and he pressed stop on the thing and he just looked up at me and said, you need to do your own podcast.
01:55:29.000No, it's interesting, too, and I'm getting over the fact of, like I told you earlier, like I said on the Tim Ferriss program, People that just talk for no reason.
01:55:39.000And it's hard for me to get used to the fact that somebody wants to hear what I have to say that's not a seal or a direct business person.
01:55:49.000But I'll probably end up doing something with it.
01:55:53.000Well, I think great military leaders, whether it's Zao what a Sun Tzu the art of war whether it's Miyamoto busashi from the book of five rings great warriors from the past have written books that civilians have gotten a lot out of and I think that someone like you Instead of writing a book and your book I'm sure is great and I'm sure there's a lot of lessons in that but on a daily basis to be able to do something like this anytime you
01:56:23.000want just fire up your podcast anytime something like Paris like the Paris attack happens you could give your perspective instantaneously Uploaded onto the internet and there's just never been a time like that It's wonderful that we could sit down and read what Miyamoto Musashi wrote hundreds of years ago.
01:56:42.000I mean, it's amazing It's interesting to try to peer into the mind of one of the the greatest swordsman that ever lived and see his philosophies on life But I think that Today with the advent of the internet and with with the ability to broadcast yourself virtually instantaneously,
01:57:02.000I think you could you could make a gigantic impact in Sharing that perspective and taking those experiences that you have so deserved and so earned and And giving people this insight that they're just not gonna get it.
01:57:20.000You know, I'm getting it from you, like I said, I got it from you from that Tim Ferriss episode, and I'm getting it even more from you now.
01:57:27.000It's a perspective you're just not gonna get from someone who wasn't there.
01:57:32.000You're gonna get these fuzzy, you know, it's like two people sit, you ever heard two people talk about martial arts, don't know shit about martial arts?
01:58:09.000And honestly, when I first joined the SEAL teams, that was the most frowned upon thing was to be broadcasting yourself that you were a SEAL You were that what you did and it and it took me a long time I mean writing this book was a was a It's it's a really hard thing to do because You sit there and you you know,
01:58:29.000you you're you're supposed to be humble, right?
01:58:31.000You're a warrior supposed to be humble.
01:58:33.000Well, I'm gonna write a big book about myself I mean that just that just doesn't work and so it was really hard and and Leif and I that was one of the biggest things that we did as we edited it and edited it and edited it We went through it just to just to make sure that we were coming across and saying things in a manner that really reflected That humility which again,
01:58:56.000it's very hard to do because it's a dichotomy It's a dichotomy because you're saying hey, you got to be humble as a leader But I'm gonna write a big book about myself.
01:59:08.000And so when you're sitting here like, oh, you should have a podcast and I'm thinking, you know, you should broadcast yourself.
01:59:14.000And again, the way I was raised, because you spent your whole adult life in comedy.
01:59:19.000I spent my whole adult life in the SEAL teams and I was raised by these old Vietnam guys that were badasses and they were like, oh, you don't talk about this.
01:59:45.000I totally understand why they would say you don't talk about it.
01:59:48.000But what I think the benefit of talking about it today, as opposed to their time, is that through the internet, you can broadcast in a way that would be like, look, no one's gonna take a Navy SEAL back in the day and give them a gigantic television show where they could say whatever the fuck they wanted.
02:00:07.000Broadcast anytime they wanted, but if you have a successful podcast you can reach hundreds of thousands of people with each episode which is just like a successful television show and Because of that you have the ability to educate people and give people this perspective that I said that I got from you that I'm just not get I'm not getting from anybody else unless they've been there But I get it from you.
02:00:29.000I get it from Brian Stan I get it from Andy Stump.
02:00:31.000I get it from people that have been there and you you get A different perspective than you're ever gonna get from someone who's just pontificating or guessing, waxing poetically on the nature of man and war.
02:00:54.000I really think it would help a lot of people.
02:00:56.000I think it would help a lot of people understand from the perspective of someone who actually knows what they're talking about.
02:01:02.000And there's not a lot of that in the world.
02:01:04.000I think this is also what you're talking about when you're talking about the leadership in this country.
02:01:10.000I don't know if you should be someone who has served in the military in order to qualify for being the president, but I don't think it's a bad idea to throw it out there to say that, at the very least, you should spend some time living in these environments where we're involved in massive conflict.
02:01:31.000At the very least you should visit them spend a lot of time with the people who have lived and served and fought in these countries so you understand Clearly with no fuzziness at all.
02:01:43.000What the fuck is going on in the world?
02:01:47.000Well, there's no doubt that I think military service I mean I It was so good for me.
02:02:48.000I was like, okay And you know but that's that gives you an indication as to what kind of kid I was I was like completely out of control and didn't listen to anybody and I was probably similar to what you were like I'm guessing You know, I was just an out-of-control kid that just did whatever and And so joining the military,
02:03:21.000And you develop the discipline, you know the discipline and I talk about that all the time You know the the fact that discipline equals freedom and the more discipline you have as a human The more freedom you're gonna have which is completely counterintuitive, you know people think oh you're living this disciplined lifestyle So that means you you you don't have any freedom and it's actually the exact opposite I have freedom because I have discipline I have I have you know financial freedom because I have financial discipline I have I have more time because I have the discipline to get up in the morning,
02:03:51.000you know, before most normal people get up.
02:03:54.000Those are the kind of disciplines that you put into place, and those definitely get instilled through the military.
02:03:58.000Well, I think the one thing that discipline definitely does help you with is it helps you get things done.
02:04:05.000And when you get things done, when you actually do things, you have more success.
02:04:12.000If you have more success, sometimes a big part of success is just not being fucking lazy and just doing it.
02:04:23.000You're not going to feel perfect every day.
02:04:25.000If I only worked out when I felt good, I'd be a fat fuck.
02:04:29.000Because there's a lot of days I don't want to do it.
02:04:31.000It's pretty much the same with everybody that actually gets good at something.
02:04:37.000There's got to be those days you push through, and they're probably going to be more numerous than the days you don't.
02:04:44.000And so the benefit of discipline in my eyes has always been that through discipline, I get things done.
02:04:49.000I always say that I'm like the most lazy, disciplined person I know, because I don't want to do it, but I always do.
02:04:59.000And I'd be interested to get your perspective on this statement.
02:05:02.000So I also think that discipline Is a pathway to creativity and I'll tell you when I talk about creativity there's another misconception about the military when you're on the battlefield is an absolute Exercise in creativity,
02:05:40.000And when I look at people that are artists like yourself, because you're a stand-up comedian, I would imagine that the more disciplined you are, You know, you gotta get up and write.
02:05:53.000You gotta read and find out about what's going on in the world so you have more things that you can jab at and make fun of.
02:05:59.000You gotta increase your vocabulary so that you are quicker and sharper so that when people are saying things you have more words to battle back at them.
02:06:06.000All those things, all that freedom that you get on stage comes from the discipline that you study, you learn, you read, you write, you talk, you go through things.
02:07:00.000You know and that you have to sit down you have to overcome resistance and that the pro goes to work and it doesn't matter if you're sick doesn't matter if you have kids It doesn't matter what you you're a pro and you go to work and that and that just it puts it in your head That this is what I do This is what and you have pride in that and then when you are in front of that keyboard And you're you're you got you look down the count it says fuck a thousand words today I put a thousand words in you Yeah,
02:07:26.000and you you're doing the work and out of that work Gems blossom little things, but you might have a day where you just write nothing but dog shit So what show up again tomorrow and tomorrow that dog shit a flower will emerge You never know and that's the only way to develop real like to really develop your potential a hundred percent in anything Whether it's as an author or even as a martial artist.
02:07:50.000There's a lot of creativity in martial arts.
02:07:52.000To be a great striker, you have to be creative because you have to develop patterns or execute patterns that aren't going to be perceived.
02:08:02.000Like if a guy has a real simple 1-2-1-2, you're going to time that shit.
02:08:07.000We were talking before this podcast about Holly Holm's victory over Ronda Rousey.
02:08:12.000And one of the things that we were talking about was that Ronda...
02:08:15.000Had this very linear, straightforward attack.
02:08:19.000You knew she was coming, and Holly is a master at countering.
02:08:24.000So all she had to do was wait and move, and Rhonda was coming in one direction.
02:08:33.000It was a mad bulldog rush that had worked on everybody else before.
02:08:39.000But she found one person who was a virtuoso at movement and she needed creativity and it wasn't there.
02:08:46.000And she needed that experience that came with having faced someone who knew that position and had a deep understanding of that movement and she didn't have that in her repertoire.
02:09:15.000Where he practiced this step-in uppercut elbow, like a sideways elbow.
02:09:21.000And his coach was going, you're fucking crazy, stop practicing that.
02:09:24.000And he would make his wife hold a pillow because his coach didn't want him to practice it anymore because he thought he was wasting his time.
02:09:31.000So he practiced stepping, his wife would hold a pillow for him, and he'd step in and throw this uppercut elbow.
02:09:37.000That's what he knocked out Fricklin with.
02:09:39.000Obviously, Fricklin was outclassed in that fight, but he wanted to make a point.
02:09:44.000And the front kick that he landed in the face of Vitor Belfort.
02:09:47.000Vitor never saw that shit coming, because nobody had done that to him before.
02:09:50.000Because nobody had done that in the history of the UFC. Nobody had ever knocked anybody out with the first kick you learn in martial arts.
02:09:57.000But the creativity to try something like that.
02:10:00.000He would throw punches to your thigh from standing.
02:10:29.000He does this thing, for folks who don't understand jujitsu, who don't know what we're talking about, he does this thing called a donkey guard.
02:10:37.000He gets on, literally, he faces you with his butt to you, and he launches himself backwards like a donkey kicking and wraps you up.
02:10:47.000And it looks so preposterous while he's doing it that so many guys, especially when he first started executing it, just had no idea what the fuck to do.
02:11:02.000He's so comfortable in, you know, he trains at, you know, we're at the same gym and He trains every day with whoever, and he puts himself in the most ridiculously horrible positions.
02:11:15.000I'm talking like, okay, he'll let people get a rear naked choke on him.
02:13:02.000Yeah, he's I mean both those guys are are mutants.
02:13:05.000They're actual grappling Mutants where if you and I were to like concoct some weird, you know like potion and create beings You know you'd make like a Jeff Glover because he's weird flexible Wiry and he would be really good and then you'd make a Dean Lister who's just a big mutant who you you when you when you catch Dean you have to like Do everything perfect because he's his defense is really good and he just doesn't it's really hard to tap him with stuff You know like like he'll just give people you
02:13:35.000know his foot and be like yeah, go for it And it takes me like three days I'll have to soften his foot up with like nine foot locks Then just crank it crank it crank it and then you know on the third day I'll get a deep one and it'll already be like hurt so so you know so you have to soften him up over days like tenderizing meat.
02:13:55.000Yeah, yeah Well, that was why it was so shocking when Josh Barnett tapped him, because Josh Barnett tapped him in an old-school side headlock choke, which is very rare.
02:14:07.000It's very rare that you see a high-level guy that executes that choke, like the way Josh did.
02:14:14.000But Josh's got that old-school catch wrestling knowledge, too, which is just such a different approach.
02:14:20.000You get used to certain approaches, and Josh has a very different approach, and he's a very physically strong guy as well.
02:14:26.000Yeah, and I mean, you know Dean is just a Dean is a mutant and he is a gifted incredibly gifted grappler But his you know his training methodology and lifestyle is not really conducive to Competing like that,
02:14:45.000you know Unfortunately, that's a nice way of saying he's kind of lazy Let's just make those noises and not say anything.
02:15:40.000Alan Belcher brought him in when he fought Husamar Poharis, who's the best leg locker in MMA. And in that fight, Alan just stomped everything Poharis threw at him and beat him down.
02:15:52.000And literally every single movement that I saw, I was like, oh, that's this, that's this.
02:15:55.000I knew exactly what Dean had showed him and exactly what those movements were.
02:16:04.000Uh, he's, you know, he's teaching jujitsu and, you know, hanging out, um, getting after it, you know?
02:16:11.000Uh, I would love to see him just, like, get completely refocused and make a, make a run at win an ADCC or whatever, uh, one more time before he, before he hangs it up.
02:16:24.000Like, when you say he's dinged up, like, what kind of shit?
02:16:27.000Oh, just normal old, you know, jujitsu type guy, you know, his neck will be sore, his shoulder will be hurt, uh, Just that kind of stuff, you know?
02:16:40.000In ADCC, his last, I think it was in China, his match against Buchecha, when Buchecha's just a complete beast, and, you know, they went at it, and that was a very close match.
02:16:51.000And again, if you watch training videos of Buchecha getting ready for ADCC, he's training like a complete savage.
02:16:59.000I mean, he's bringing wrestlers in, he's clean and jerk, he's flipping tires, he's doing everything that one does to prepare for a situation like that.
02:17:07.000And Dean does not do those types of things, you know, he'll come in and train a little bit and Go on his natural ability as a mutant human being to get it done It's always frustrating when you see a guy who is so naturally gifted who kind of like lays back but that's it seems to be That's a lot of what happens is the people that are naturally gifted don't have to work as hard So they don't work as hard.
02:17:30.000It's also part of You know when I talk about Jeff and Dean both those guys They're both, and you know, you could throw Eddie, and you could throw all kinds of people into this category who are kind of game changers.
02:17:49.000I've hung out a couple times, but I definitely know Jeff and Dean.
02:17:53.000And they got some weird stuff about them, right?
02:17:59.000I mean, they got some weird personality stuff.
02:18:02.000And from my perspective, that is, if you didn't have that weird personality thing, then how are you going to be a 15-year-old Jeff Glover and be like, oh, you know what I'm going to do all day?
02:18:14.000I'm just going to train Jiu-Jitsu all day, every day.
02:18:18.000I'm gonna train every day I'm gonna compete all over the country.
02:18:21.000I'm just that's what I'm gonna do That's you know if you're not some if you don't have some if you're normal You're not gonna do that a normal person's like oh cool I'm gonna get a job at Walmart, and then I'm gonna do you know I'll train it I'll train for an hour and a half night these guys are like oh no I'm just gonna train all day every day and I'm gonna live in you know on the mat and Dean same way like He didn't have that weird like spark that made him that makes him I mean he's got some weird Like,
02:18:48.000What's weird about him is, if you ask Eddie Bravo about, you know, the rubber guard, he knows all these details about it.
02:18:56.000But if you ask him about a footlock or something that he doesn't know that well, he'd be like, oh yeah, a little bit.
02:19:01.000You'll ask Dean about something that he knows nothing of, like, you've never seen him do before, and he'll know all these details of the moves.
02:19:06.000And I don't know if he, I seriously don't know if he goes and watches it on YouTube, or if he, like, studies or writes it down, but he's got this weird little, almost Rain Man, um, You know idiot savant type weird thing in his head.
02:19:20.000He was one of those guys that had a really hard time transitioning into MMA. Absolutely.
02:19:25.000His striking just never seemed fluid like and he you know, I know he worked hard at it.
02:19:32.000He just For whatever his body is designed for things.
02:19:36.000Yeah, and you see that with everybody because everyone's got Strength and weaknesses and everyone's gonna be good at something and bad at something else You know you and I know all these examples of people that are like this every fighter You know has got some weak area and then you get occasionally you get a guy that like GSP that's just like well-rounded right But you know everyone even even things physical things physical attributes You know some people are just super mutant strong and some people are just super crazy flexible and some people have unbelievable natural
02:20:06.000cardio and some people don't and And so it's the people.
02:20:11.000Then there's some people that are really good at grappling.
02:20:13.000There's some people are really good at striking.
02:20:15.000There's some people that are good at putting all those things together, which I always thought Fedor was very natural at combining his striking with his grappling and kind of making it all fit together.
02:20:28.000I think that was one of the things that really stood out about him, was that he didn't fall into that trap that a lot of people do, where if you're a really good wrestler but you have knockout power, you just knock everybody out.
02:20:40.000Fedor, you would be stunned and he would see your arm and he would dive in a Kimura.
02:20:45.000He would always take the opportunity that presented itself, whether it was a grappling situation or whether it was a striking situation.
02:20:53.000And his well-roundedness was one of the things that made him special.
02:20:56.000On top of his knockout power and his aggression, he was so well-rounded.
02:21:00.000His ability to flow with whatever was happening.
02:21:04.000And he also had that humility and he had that calm, like you saw Holly had the other day.
02:21:10.000I actually I actually again talk about social media I post it out.
02:21:13.000I haven't posted much on face the Facebook before but there's a video of Holly talking about she got beat by Sofia Matias in kickboxing, right?
02:21:25.000It was a vicious fight watch it later kickboxing kickboxing It's it's it's it's insane.
02:21:32.000I mean she gets destroyed Holly gets completely destroyed hanging on the ropes getting punched in the head It's awful Then you watch the post-fight interview with her, and it's unbelievable because everything she says,
02:21:49.000she takes complete ownership of the loss.
02:21:52.000She's like, I had a great training camp.
02:21:56.000My coaches were telling me to do the right things, but I wasn't doing what I was supposed to do.
02:21:59.000I wasn't fighting the way I was supposed to fight.
02:22:01.000The reason I lost tonight is my fault.
02:22:04.000I did this, and I will have to change things if I'm going to beat her.
02:22:10.000Hearing someone and the other part that was cool about it was she was getting emotional like you could see like she want to cry I mean she was crushed but she she kept control of her emotions and Was another you know, I saw that video.
02:22:42.000The book is called extreme ownership That's that's literally the families and gentlemen right there, but but that's that is like the key though the reason it's called that is because When we made mistakes We owned up to them and furthermore when both Leif and I ended up in positions where we were teaching leadership Leif was teaching the junior officers that were coming out of the SEAL training putting them through the the junior officer training course and I was teaching like I said the advanced guys and so you'd get two SEAL officers and like I said we put
02:23:12.000these guys through horrible training scenarios where everyone was getting killed and blown up and they'd be buddy carrying people through the desert and just it's just awful and And you come back from these situations, and you talk to one of the, let's say, one of the good leaders, and you say,
02:23:43.000And that guy would go and fix that problem.
02:23:46.000Then you'd get a guy that was, would not take ownership of stuff, that would come in and say, uh, What went wrong that training you know that that was you guys did a terrible job what happened he said well You know my my assault force commander didn't wait for my command before he left and he screwed up and my platoon chief wasn't heads up about where our casualties were being taken and my LPO and they did make all these excuses and It really was the difference between like who would be successful and who wouldn't
02:24:16.000be because the guy that takes ownership of the problems What do you think the rest of his team does?
02:24:22.000Just just If if that person takes ownership of the problems everybody on that team does the same thing They don't say yeah, you're right boss.
02:24:31.000Hey boss You know what I actually could have done a better job and and that spreads through everybody Whereas when someone says it wasn't my fault.
02:25:46.000And, you know, part of that biggest step of moving forward is learning how to take ownership of stuff when it goes sideways, and it definitely will.
02:25:53.000Well, you need some form, some amount of pride and some amount of ego to get good at things in the first place because it's such a counterintuitive notion because you have to have a belief in yourself.
02:26:06.000You have to be able, like when you, when you first, when you start out at Jiu Jitsu, you're a white belt.
02:26:10.000Like, I remember being a white belt and being like, oh my god, I am fucking never gonna get good at this.
02:28:08.000It's a big, big part of the problem with mixed martial arts.
02:28:12.000It's so obvious, too, when you're overtraining somebody.
02:28:14.000Because all of a sudden like one night they'll just fall apart and they just won't be able to do anything, right?
02:28:19.000And I'm always like alright go eat two steaks and take two days off You know because they will get to a point you just feel them you'll just feel them fall apart Yeah, well you have to monitor your heart rate That's a big thing that a lot of fighters don't do Monitor your resting heart rate in the morning and if it goes up more than five beats in a day or two most likely you're overtrained or you're sick or you're struggling with something and That would make Steve Maxwell taught me that trick.
02:28:42.000Yeah, he's like every fighter should do that.
02:28:44.000None of them do They should monitor their heart rate and every morning his heart rate is like seven.
02:28:49.000Yeah, Steve Maxwell can fucking he can deal with anything Yeah, he's just one of those dudes, but he's just he's another guy I want to talk about a guy who's got a lifetime of wisdom When it comes to strength and conditioning and what he calls physical culture and the culture of you know taking care of your body and Guys,
02:29:06.00062 or 63 years old, fit as a fiddle, travels all around the world training people.
02:29:17.000When he travels around, all of his stuff's in that bag.
02:29:20.000Yeah, I ran into him in San Diego because he's been downsizing.
02:29:23.000The first time I ran into him in San Diego, he was down to living in an RV, like a small RV. That's when I first met him too.
02:29:32.000And then I hear him on a podcast, whatever, you know, a year later or two years later and he's, you know, I have all my worldly possessions in a backpack.
02:30:25.000He's still doing jiu-jitsu to this day.
02:30:26.000And he teaches a course, Jiu-Jitsu for Lifetime.
02:30:31.000It's all about maintaining your health while you train and you know, he's written articles on training smart to avoid injuries as you get older and You know how to pick the right training partners and make sure you know You know what's trying to hurt you but that you could keep a an active martial arts lifestyle Deep in your 60s like he is Yeah,
02:30:50.000you got to be thankful that you started jujitsu a little bit younger because you got to get and even today if you start jujitsu as an older we have all kinds of older guys coming to the gym and And it's that first year where they just don't know where to put their body yet,
02:31:05.000and they don't know to say no to that 21-year-old, juiced-up Marine that's in there to get after it.
02:31:17.000They smack hands to roll, and this guy's going to tear them apart.
02:31:20.000That's that's how guys get hurt if they're if they're older and you know They you need to ease into it a little bit.
02:31:25.000Yeah training partners It's you gotta pick your training partners carefully and this there's always gonna be the guy that hurts people There's just be this giant German dude that used to roll at our gym used to always get everybody in leg locks and blow their knees out and he's just You know never rolled with that guy.
02:31:41.000I'm like I've I've been leg locked by Dean.
02:31:44.000I don't even know how many times like I mean, we might be talking thousands of times, heel hooked, knee locked, but, you know, I've never been hurt, you know, and I've gotten him, you know, not thousands of times, but plenty of times, and we've never hurt each other, you know, because we know what we're doing.
02:32:01.000Yeah, I'd way rather roll with a black belt than some fucking psycho blue belt.
02:32:59.000We're talking about different guys that like to do different things and different approaches and gi versus no gi and John Donaher and, you know, Gary Tonin and Eddie Cummins and all these different...
02:33:13.000What a transformation this guy has overtaken.
02:33:15.000Jiu Jitsu definitely I mean people can get into all kinds of weird stuff right people get into surfing people get into skiing people get into rock climbing there's definitely something more in Jiu Jitsu that Gets into people's heads and it definitely happened to me.
02:33:34.000I mean I was completely and I still am I mean I still cannot like stop a YouTube video of a cool move I mean I just I just have to watch it.
02:33:41.000Yeah, and I think it's because there's such a cerebral part of it There's something about it and I see this we know we teach kids and you'll see the the Knucklehead kids the kind of knuckle-dragging kids are kind of big They don't really get it,
02:33:57.000but then you get this kid like some smart kid you can tell they're smart and those the kids that get really into jiu-jitsu Because they realize like oh if I learned this I can beat that big kid.
02:34:06.000Yeah, and that's where it starts But yeah, jiu-jitsu can definitely be addictive Well jiu-jitsu is the only martial art where it really works like in the Bruce Lee movie Yeah, where the little guy really can beat the big guy.
02:34:18.000Yeah Because the reality is, if you watch the old K-1 days where Bob Sapp was fighting, when Bob Sapp was 375 pounds with abs, you've never seen anything like it.
02:35:49.000But then again, he went and fought Hongman Choi, who's a giant guy too, but giant, actually gigantism giant, not giant like juice to the gills giant.
02:36:00.000But look, Bob Sapp, I mean, all power to him.
02:36:03.000They didn't have a law against it, and he went in there and they were paying him, and that's how he made a ton of money doing that.
02:36:09.000The point is that in jujitsu, like, maybe in MMA it's a little bit different because, you know, obviously Bob Sapp dropped Noguera on his head and most people would have been done then.
02:36:34.000And when Rico threw him on his back, when Marcelo took Rico's back, so Rico threw himself backwards and slammed on top of, like, Marcelo's like a backpack on Rico's back.
02:36:45.000Rico's like 240-something, maybe even heavier.
02:36:47.000Threw himself backwards and landed all his weight on Marcelo.
02:36:52.000Marcelo shook it off and leg-locked him.
02:36:56.000I mean Marcelo was like 160 pounds, maybe 170, maybe, but just so skilled and so dangerous with his jiu-jitsu that he was the favorite in that, which is incredible.
02:37:08.000And that's where I think that addiction comes in, because I think it's just a cerebral thing where people realize that it's, like you said, it's this real force.
02:37:15.000One of my My kid asked me, you know the movie The Incredibles?
02:37:41.000Well, it's also amazing to see the progression of jiu-jitsu in comparison to 1993, because the jiu-jitsu of 1993 was so primitive in comparison to what you have today.
02:37:51.000Like, the guys who are winning with jiu-jitsu, God, the setups were so obvious.
02:37:56.000You could see the arm bars a mile away.
02:37:58.000There was nothing crazy or weird about it.
02:38:00.000And you look at that in comparison to today, like a Jacare.
02:38:04.000Like, when Jacare gets arm bars, it's like a work of art.
02:38:08.000I mean, you watch his setups, you go, good lord!
02:38:11.000Like, he tapped Chris Camozzi with an armbar, and I've watched the transition, the way he controlled them on the ground and the scramble to armbar.
02:38:19.000I probably watched it 40 times in a row.
02:38:22.000I just played it back and forth and went, Fuck!
02:39:29.000But this guy, Steve Bailey, had trained there, and, you know, one day we were over on deployment over in Guam, and he said, hey, who here wants to learn how to fight?
02:39:37.000And I'm like, hey, I want to learn how to fight.
02:39:39.000And he just took us all and just choked us all out.
02:39:42.000You know, I mean, like, okay, you attack me and just choked us all out.
02:39:45.000I'm like, okay, I'll listen to whatever this guy's saying.
02:39:47.000So he taught us, you know, the basic, you know, like the rear naked choke and the arm lock and like the Americana or something like, you know, we're talking like four or five different moves.
02:39:59.000With those moves like I never I I'd every scrap I'd get into you know I just force someone into the rear naked choke or force something but they had no idea was happening so it was actually amazing but uh But again, I thought at that time that that was jujitsu.
02:40:31.000He was very physically strong this guy.
02:40:33.000He was a big like bulky dude like a naturally big bone strong guy that gave people a lot of problems and then Decided and like like didn't just decide this but said it publicly I've learned all I can learn about jiu-jitsu and now I'm going to learn all I can learn about Muay Thai and everybody just went oh dude,
02:40:54.000we're done with you and It was so ridiculed in the jiu-jitsu community and in the people in John Jock's school that everybody...
02:41:01.000I was on a blue belt at the time, and I was like, what the fuck is this guy on?
02:41:24.000It reflects life and if the day you start saying that you're good to go like in leadership position or whatever task you're working on the day you say I've learned everything there is to learn about this is the day you start to lose and I know that humility Is something that you have to keep yourself in check.
02:41:44.000Because, again, I got asked the other day, you know, when was your high point of leadership?
02:41:50.000And I'm like, I never had a high point of leadership.
02:42:24.000And as soon as you start thinking that you've mastered something to the point of an end, Like, you kind of missed out what it's all about in the first place.
02:42:35.000It's all about, you're constantly uncomfortable.
02:42:37.000You're supposed to be constantly uncomfortable.
02:42:39.000And then in these little victories that you get, the good thing about when people tap, you get a, oh, I get a little nice feeling right here.
02:42:54.000No, no, because you're missing the point.
02:42:55.000The point is that it's a long path, a long, arduous path, and I think anything that's worth doing is probably like that.
02:43:04.000There's no doubt about it, and that's another piece again, another place where jiu-jitsu is like life.
02:43:13.000Is, you think, at some point you think you know, like, you think you're good, you think you're doing pretty good, and then you just get smacked.
02:43:21.000You know, you get smacked with something.
02:43:23.000And, like, now, like, when you were 25, you were like, I'm pretty good to go.
02:43:29.000You know, I pretty much know what's up.
02:43:31.000And then when you're 30, you're like, I didn't know anything when I was 25. Yeah, I was an idiot five years ago.
02:43:37.000Like, even, and so I think one of the One of the things that provides some small portion of maturity as a human being and as a man is when you get to the point where you actually realize that you don't know everything and you're looking at yourself like,
02:43:52.000I'm 44 and I'm like, yeah, I'm going to learn so much in the next three years, five years.
02:43:57.000I'm going to look at myself at 44 and go, yeah, you see how stupid you were then?
02:44:00.000And when you come to that realization, I think that's a pretty positive thing because it takes a while to figure out that, hey, you don't have everything figured out.
02:44:09.000You're You're pretty stupid right now, even though you don't think so.
02:44:12.000Another thing that things like jiu-jitsu teach you, and I say jiu-jitsu, but it's really an all martial arts thing.
02:44:20.000The problem with the other martial arts other than jiu-jitsu is at a certain point in time, you can't really practice them 100%.
02:44:44.000And, you know, it's not that he's going to be a world beater, but he can get the most out of it.
02:44:48.000The most that he can get out of it, that stays the same.
02:44:52.000Like, what you get out of it stays the same, regardless of your...
02:44:56.000Regardless of the success, what you're getting out of it, even if you're getting tapped, what you're getting out of it is doing your best and overcoming and improving upon what your best is every day.
02:45:07.000And doing so in a situation where there's extreme consequences.
02:45:21.000Obviously, but it is as extreme as you can get in a sport that you're participating in, an activity that you're participating in voluntarily in America at 5.30 on a Tuesday, where you're going to get 30 people that are going to show up, slap hands together,
02:45:37.000and then hug it out after it's over, and go, you're going to be here tomorrow?
02:45:42.000And then, you know, back again tomorrow, same thing.
02:45:45.000That's another kind of primal piece that makes jiu-jitsu...
02:45:53.000So intense is if you and me roll like and I get you or you get me and I tap in my like heart I know that if you and I were fighting for survival I just lost and you'd have killed me and I see this with little kids when little kids compete and You tell them,
02:46:15.000hey, listen, just go out there, have fun.
02:46:29.000Because a part of them inside their head that they don't even know exists knows that that person, had they been in a mortal struggle, they got beat.
02:46:42.000It's not like someone, this is what I always say, like, somebody dunks a basketball on you, it sucks, but it doesn't mean anything unless you decide it means something.
02:46:49.000Well, what does basketball escalate into?
02:46:54.000So if you, let's get rid of the bat, the ball, whatever else, let's just fight.
02:46:58.000That's why I think the UFC has been so highly successful, because it is.
02:47:04.000It's the ultimate, you know, in combat sport, again, you know, barring combat itself.
02:47:08.000Yeah, well, it's also why the dorks and pencil necks hate it so much because they think it's a regression back to the primal days of caveman combat.
02:47:17.000Some fat fuck wrote an article for, like, the New Yorker or New York Post or something like that about the Ronda Rousey loss, about how barbaric and disgusting it was.
02:47:26.000What a what what bullshit that we were fed and that you know we were made out that she was this Unconquerable and to watch her beaten unconscious was disgusting and you don't get it man Like you don't get it like what you're doing with your fat face Like shoving cheeseburgers down your mug is way worse than anything that she did inside that octagon It's interesting because that That kind of attitude can cross borders into other things.
02:47:53.000And, you know, I end up talking to people, you know, through our company, people that are smart.
02:47:59.000Like, I'll be in a room where everyone went to an Ivy League college and been super successful and they're worth millions and millions, if not hundreds of millions of dollars.
02:48:08.000And I was given one of these talks the other day and, you know, of course they ended up asking me about ISIS and all that.
02:48:16.000As I'm sitting there looking and I'm thinking to myself like these people are all looking at me and Thinking I'm just a savage right?
02:48:26.000I'm just like hey, I'm a knuckle-dragger.
02:48:28.000We just need to go kill everyone and so I tried to explain to them.
02:48:31.000I'm like listen I almost I almost Feel ashamed to say this to everyone here because everyone here is An intellectual and is very very smart But there are some problems in the world that there is not an academic solution to and sometimes violence is the solution and again there can be a million arguments against that and But
02:49:02.000the reality of it is, in the world, it's like you were talking about earlier, in the world, there are evil people that do evil things.
02:49:11.000And the only way to stop them is to confront them and destroy them.
02:49:18.000Unfortunately, we are so disconnected from that that it makes people look at UFC and go, oh my God, how could that happen?
02:49:27.000It makes people look at a military attack and say, oh my God, how could that happen?
02:49:31.000It can happen because we're human beings and we're imperfect and there are evil people in the world.
02:49:40.000Well, the people that think there's no...
02:50:03.000The only reason why they even have that attitude is because they live here in this sheltered environment, in our beautiful bubble we call the United States of America.
02:50:12.000That many brave men and women have provided and will continue to provide regardless of what is said about them and God bless those folks out there on the wire Yes, sir, and with that extreme ownership those three hours man, we just banged out three hours damn crazy Right here,