On this episode of the podcast, we have special guest Mike Schmidt. Mike is a criminal defense attorney in Madison, Wisconsin who has worked at the Comedy Store for the past 10 years. We talk about racism in the criminal justice system and how it affects the black community. We also talk about the Viking Clap and how we should be doing a better job of educating our youth about the history of the Viking clap and what it means to be a Viking fan in the 21st century. Finally, we talk about why Black people in America are more likely to be arrested than white people in general, and why this is a problem in the United States of America. If you like the podcast and would like to support it, please consider becoming a patron patron and/or share it on your socials! Thanks to our patron Mike Schmidt for coming up with the idea for this episode and for being willing to share his knowledge and experience on the subject. We hope you enjoy this episode, and if you do, please leave us a review on Apple Podcasts and share it with your friends and family! We really appreciate it. -Jon Sorrentino Jon and Mike Schmidt Don't Tell Mom & Dad: e. Jon & Mike Schmidt: Mike's Podcast: . Jon talks about racism and racism in America and how to deal with it Doug Duren talks about it on the podcast Michael Schmidt talks about his experience working at The Comedy Store and why he thinks Black people are treated better than white folks in Wisconsin, and how he thinks they should be treated better in America, and what he thinks about it's better than other people in the way other people should do better than they do in America and much more. Mike talks about what racism is going on in the U.S. and his thoughts on it, and his opinion on it and why it's a problem that needs to be dealt with in the first place. , and why they should stop being treated like that way, not like it matters. Thank you for being black in America. Thank you, Mike Schmidt, Mike, thank you for coming on this episode! - Jon and I hope you like it! Mike, I really appreciate you're listening to this, and I appreciate you, and we love you, more than you're being treated fairly, and you're not getting any less than you know what you can do that.
00:01:04.000That is one of the dopest fucking war dances the world has ever known, and it's going on right now.
00:01:09.000It's not some Viking shit that they forgot about, that they probably used to do, but everybody who did it got slaughtered, or died off, or they didn't tell their grandchildren because they didn't want them carrying on the way.
00:02:06.000And during the course of this hang, you started telling me about your past.
00:02:12.000Before you worked at the Comedy Store, and you started telling me some really disturbing shit that you saw in the criminal justice system while you were working there.
00:02:22.000And I was like, this is a fascinating subject, and let's talk about it on a podcast.
00:02:30.000It's fucked up, so I may as well tell people.
00:02:33.000Yeah, well you, tell me what you did for 10 years.
00:02:36.000So I was a criminal defense attorney for about 10 years.
00:02:40.000I was for the first year or two in central Wisconsin and then I moved down to Dane County, Wisconsin, which is where Madison is, you know, University of Wisconsin, all that fun stuff.
00:03:06.000Very liberal town, and you would think that because it's very liberal that black people are treated well there, and it is absolutely not the case.
00:03:16.000It is the, like, if you're black in America, I mean, you've seen the studies, you've seen the statistics, you've seen riots.
00:04:14.000Well, I mean, there's a ton of different factors.
00:04:18.000And all the factors boil down to, eh, racism.
00:04:24.000I know it's kind of condescending for me to be a white guy from the Midwest calling racism on everybody, but I'm just going to tell you what I've observed and, you know, what the numbers show.
00:04:33.000Because the thing is that you can't argue with the statistics.
00:04:36.000If this ever came down to an argument about whether or not these numbers are fair, these people are being treated fairly, we know where they are.
00:04:49.000They could raise their hands if they wanted to and say...
00:04:53.000I'm sorry, I think really what's important, one of the things you pointed out was in specific crimes, where a white guy and a black guy with no record did the exact same thing, the difference in punishment between the white guy and the black guy.
00:05:06.000So if you want to count Numbers of people that have been arrested, I think there's a possibility that it runs into that quagmire.
00:05:15.000Well, you know, how many black people are there?
00:05:35.000So burglary is a crime that There's multiple stages to burglary.
00:05:40.000There's people who are very good at burglary who will, you know, knock on a house and announce themselves, say, hey, Kathy, just to try and avoid being charged with burglary under this statute, just the way it's worded.
00:05:52.000But teenagers do burglary a different way.
00:05:55.000They wait till somebody's out of town that they know, and they rob their parents' house.
00:06:01.000And they'll take their Playstations and they'll take their liquor and everything and they get caught.
00:06:05.000They'll usually do a couple of them and they'll get caught in a group.
00:06:08.000And if that's your first trip into the justice system, you are probably in Dane County, you're probably going to get a deferred prosecution agreement.
00:06:18.000If you keep your nose clean you'll get an expunction which is where the judge says I don't think the community would be harmed and I think you would be helped by Making it like this never happened so the police can keep a report of it, but nobody will ever know so The black kids don't get the offer of expunction right out of the gates the the white kids do and then When they fuck up,
00:06:45.000and they do, because they are 19, and a lot of the white kids are stealing for heroin.
00:06:53.000I don't want to sensationalize it, but that's what you do.
00:06:56.000So they'll steal for that, they'll get popped again, or they'll get popped for curfew.
00:07:01.000And now the deferred prosecution agreement is pulled, and so they're technically convicted of a felony.
00:07:36.000And the black kids who fuck up the same way, who were charged with the same offense, in my experience, and what everybody else notices, they go to prison.
00:07:47.000So, white burglars in their early, you know, late teens, early 20s, Conviction, deferred prosecution, possibility of expunction, then still fuck up, and then they get probation.
00:08:04.000And once they go to prison, you don't really get out of that system very long because they just keep catching you up on probation or parole violations.
00:08:13.000And so that's just one example where...
00:08:17.000Same number of convictions, you know, whether or not it's a kid with no convictions or a bunch of convictions, the determining factor was the race of the kid because they're both poor.
00:08:27.000You know, the white burglar defendants and the black burglar defendants are generally both poor because if your parents have money, you just pay the restitution and you kind of walk.
00:08:40.000Not in every case, but when there's money over the barrel, when you can pay the restitution in a criminal case, it's such a rare thing that the prosecution will bend over backwards to help you get that money to the people that you fucked over.
00:08:54.000And that's all they would have to do, is pay the equal amount and they could skate?
00:09:01.000But since so few people ever get their money back from the prosecution of the crime, Anytime you can put the money up, they will bend over backwards for you.
00:09:12.000So for a theft case like that, you could conceivably not be punished for breaking into someone's house and stealing something if you pay them for it back.
00:09:22.000The act of breaking in, you won't be penalized for that?
00:09:28.000Put yourself in the shoes of a prosecutor, where day in, day out, you convict people of crimes, and you give them time, but then there's these victims, and all they ever get to do is read a report.
00:09:38.000All they ever get to do is sit in a chair and say, you really screwed me on this one day.
00:09:43.000And then a lot of times the defendant doesn't even fucking look at them.
00:09:47.000And so they never get to come with a win for their victims.
00:09:50.000And paying restitution is a win for the victims.
00:10:04.000Yeah, if you look at the difference between someone who figures out a way to come up with the money to pay for it, or they have the money to pay for it, and they were just stealing for a kick or just to be a piece of shit, versus someone who has no money.
00:10:15.000The only difference being is that the one person is able to come up with some cash.
00:10:22.000I mean, the thing is, if the charges are already filed, you're going to have to plead to something or you're going to have to do a deferred prosecution agreement, but they'll make it as easy as possible.
00:10:32.000So, when you were working there and you observed this, I mean, you were there for 10 years doing this.
00:10:38.000When did it really start to sink in that this was sort of an impossible system and you didn't want to be a part of it?
00:10:45.000So, in order to combat, I guess, the...
00:11:08.000And they staffed it with the Department of Justice and Probation and Parole and some other people that we didn't know that they staffed it about.
00:11:18.000And so they just discussed these issues in the Sheriff's Department and the U.S. Attorney's Office and the And they made the list of these people that they thought were the most dangerous in Dane County.
00:11:29.000And then they summoned them all to a meeting where they threatened them.
00:11:32.000And they said, hey, if you step out of line, we're going to fucking max you out on everything.
00:11:38.000So if you spit on the sidewalk, tick it.
00:11:41.000If you disorderly conduct, we're going to hit you with disorderly conduct as a repeater and try to throw you in prison for it.
00:11:46.000So you cock off even a little bit, you're taking the ride.
00:11:50.000And also, by the way, we have some services.
00:11:52.000So here's a place where you can apply for a job.
00:11:57.000That was when I knew there was no fucking point to this.
00:12:00.000Because in Dane County, there are like 4.6% of the population or something is black.
00:12:10.000They can't all like the top 10 most dangerous people in Dane County are not all black I know this because some of the most dangerous people in Dane County were my other clients and They're white and I was like I looked at the list.
00:12:26.000I'm like I got other guys that belong on this list I had a number of people on the list when it first came out and then when they redid the list I had a couple more and when they redid the list with a new 10 all black So,
00:12:46.000I know they're just like everybody else.
00:12:50.000How are they, you know, it's because it's white or black, the coin flip, white or black, they're telling me it came up 20 times in a row on heads?
00:12:59.000Like, random chance doesn't even account for this.
00:13:02.000There's no race-blind way to, and they told me afterwards, like, no, we did it in a race-blind way.
00:13:11.000So the system doesn't even understand how racist it is.
00:13:16.000How could they say they're doing it in a race-blind way?
00:13:18.000I mean, if you legitimately think there were more dangerous people that were working under you, or that were being represented by you, rather.
00:14:07.000Like, is it possible that all the people that were the top 20 had the most amount of violent convictions, the most amount of this, the most amount of that?
00:14:14.000And that was just, they just happened to be black.
00:14:31.000So you're saying, like, literally, you could replace the list with white people that were violent, dangerous criminals, and it would be a better choice.
00:16:04.000Because those technical points, like, you know, not getting evidence in, or when a prosecutor is asking questions during voir dire they shouldn't be, that type of little, those little backflips and shit, those will pay off when you actually have a client that you don't think did it.
00:16:26.000And so in that sense, you almost treat it like it's a game that you're playing, like some sort of a technical game.
00:16:31.000You have to treat it as a technical game or you will lose.
00:16:35.000Because is it something, I mean, I know very, very little about the law in terms of defending people, but is it something that you think is like...
00:16:43.000Almost like sort of a chess game like you have a bunch of pieces and you have to manipulate them correctly and you have to be aware of the massive massive amounts of Things that have been written on each individual subject whether individual crime what precedents have been set and How to establish whether or not your client was treated fairly,
00:17:56.000He's not a prosecutor there anymore, but...
00:18:01.000When you go into courtrooms in large areas, they take their inmates from the in custody section.
00:18:08.000Sometimes they'll be in a jail next door and they'll bring them from a tunnel or little holding cells in the courthouse.
00:18:13.000So they'll bring them in one side of the courtroom and then they'll put the jury box on the opposite side of the courtroom so that the in custody defendant doesn't walk past them on the way in and out.
00:18:24.000Because if they were to get sentenced And the jury were sitting there.
00:18:28.000On their way out, there may be some choice words.
00:18:33.000And also because, you know, they're worried about them fleeing or whatever.
00:18:37.000But the actual effect of that is the prosecutor sits closer to the jury box and they always have a case officer who sits next to the prosecutor in their dress uniform.
00:19:30.000And then you look to the court reporter and the clerk of courts, blank, blank, because they don't want you to be able to read them, or they're working on other shit, or they're concentrating on writing what everybody's saying.
00:19:39.000Then you get to the, you know, you get to the defense table, and there's the, you know, defendant looking guilty as shit, as they always do.
00:20:21.000When they lean forward to answer a question that the prosecutor asks that they want to answer, or when they lean back because you asked them a question and they're about to burn you, They're working the fucking crowd.
00:20:45.000I would take the table and I would put all my stuff there and I would make them ask the judge to move me because That was not an argument that someone who went to Harvard came to the courthouse prepared to make.
00:20:58.000Because my opponent that day did go to Harvard.
00:21:20.000I wanted that chair because I knew what we could do looking back and forth at those people and just taking them that much further from the physical proximity of the jury, putting us close.
00:21:56.000I mean, the thing is, like, if I can play for that advantage, and it's not unethical or illegal, because I can explain why that chair is better and why I want it...
00:22:07.000Then I kind of have to play that angle.
00:22:09.000Because I would hate for my client that day to be like, well, so you had a chance to really mindfuck them before you started and you didn't and now I'm convicted?
00:22:28.000How many people have sort of punched out after a while because they've been doing it a long time?
00:22:32.000Or is that a public misconception that you see in, like, movies where the, you know, the criminal defendant that gets assigned by the state doesn't really give a fuck, does a half-assed job, and the guy gets sent upriver?
00:24:00.000You're trying to catch people for doing things, and you're trying to lock them up.
00:24:04.000And when you're trying to win, because that is a win.
00:24:07.000You know, if you get someone, you lock them up, you arrest them, you catch them, they get convicted, they go upriver, I send them upriver, I win.
00:24:30.000You know, whether it's a game of pool or lawn darts or fucking basketball, people are always trying to win.
00:24:35.000And when you have people that are raised in some of the most intense moments of their life, especially if you've been involved in competitive sports, like if you've been On a championship baseball team or something like that.
00:24:46.000You go from that and your next experiences in life are being a police officer.
00:24:51.000You're going to definitely take that sports mindset and apply it to chasing down criminals.
00:24:56.000And it could be good and it can be bad, but the problem is when people start justifying certain things like planting evidence and doing things along those lines in order to get a conviction because they want to win.
00:25:29.000Because I don't necessarily understand it.
00:25:31.000During the NFL, I think it was the championship game a couple years ago, during the before the game, a trainer supposedly had let some air out of the ball, which would make it easier to grip and throw and catch.
00:28:15.000Yeah, it's just, they're not as bad as people make them out to be in that angle.
00:28:21.000Like, there have been some terrible scandals, like Rampart, but most, you know, like, that's not, that's the shit that's not really happening.
00:28:30.000What really happens is, they're just not allowed to lose any interaction.
00:28:36.000Like, they can't, like, when they finally decided that they don't have to chase people in California if they're going, like, 120. Less people started dying.
00:28:46.000Because the cops actually had the discretion to go, we don't need to win all the time.
00:28:53.000But all these other things like domestic violence arrests or shoplifting or tasers, they can't leave.
00:29:59.000But they're in a terrifying and dangerous situation a lot of times where they literally have to have complete total control of that person and compliance.
00:30:06.000If they don't have compliance, it leaves open the door...
00:30:11.000If a guy's not assuming the position, they can become more threatening.
00:30:14.000I kind of get it in violent crime situations, but it's just got to be insanely difficult to figure out when to turn that on and when to turn that off.
00:30:41.000Imagine running into people and almost everyone you see is involved in something they shouldn't be involved in.
00:30:48.000And you took the job because you like people.
00:30:51.000You know, like you took the job because you wanted to protect people and have people respect you, and all you get is fucking disrespect and picking up shoplifters and having turds thrown at you.
00:31:26.000But when they started calling them first responders, and people were like super happy to see cops and super happy to see firefighters especially.
00:31:35.000For like quite a while, they got a lot of respect.
00:31:49.000But now cops, every time one of them fucks up, it's showing up on video and it's reflecting poorly on everybody.
00:31:56.000We really do have to take into consideration two factors when you're looking at these videos.
00:32:01.000One is the sheer amount of crime you're talking about that takes place on a daily basis.
00:32:07.000So, what you're saying is, if you have, I mean, think of the many, many, many, many cities in this country, and the many, many, many, many, many cops having interactions with the many, many, many people who've committed crimes.
00:32:20.000It's pretty rare you see a video of a cop doing something really fucked up, in consideration to that.
00:32:26.000When you're talking about these millions of interactions, and to have one every couple months, people are like, God damn it!
00:32:32.000When are these fucking people gonna stop doing that?
00:32:34.000Well, A, it is very good that we have a method now to catch those people and weed those people out.
00:32:44.000But B, it certainly had an impact knowing that they're going to be filmed, knowing that it's likely to be filmed.
00:32:53.000It's going to eliminate some of the Some of the corruption, some of the evil shit that we've caught cops doing.
00:32:59.000It's definitely going to have pressure on them and social pressure that's going to cause people to change their opinions and change the way they conduct business or they conduct the business of law enforcement.
00:33:10.000But at the end of the day, the numbers are shockingly small.
00:33:13.000If you really stop and think about how much...
00:33:16.000I mean, I'm not trying to be like a cop-apologist.
00:33:19.000But I'm just saying, we really should take into consideration, whenever we do any of these conversations about it, how many fucking cops there are, how many crimes they're handling on a daily basis, and how insanely brutal that must be on your psychological system, your emotional system.
00:33:35.000I've maintained a few times that I don't think it's a job that...
00:33:38.000I think it's a job that very few people are qualified for.
00:33:41.000I think you have to have a very strong mind to be able to handle that in a very fair way.
00:34:47.000Don't you think in the Rodney King situation, though, it was pretty extreme?
00:34:51.000Because you're dealing with a PCP'd up dude that went on a high-speed chase, and there was a lot more to that video than what we saw on television.
00:34:59.000Like, I'm not excusing them for beating the shit at him like that.
00:35:02.000I mean, they should have definitely handcuffed him, and they should have figured out a way with all those guys to restrain him.
00:35:08.000They should have the physical manpower to restrain that guy without beating on him like that.
00:36:17.000But here's my only concern, is that it would encourage people to get away with more on the line.
00:36:23.000Because they know if they get pulled over, they're going to get the fuck beat out of them.
00:36:26.000And it could cause the loss of other people's lives if they were involved in a car accident by someone who's frantic to not get the shit beat out of them by cops.
00:36:34.000I just don't think you're supposed to greenlight when someone can beat the fuck out of someone.
00:36:52.000We need to figure out how to handle that if we don't want it to happen, but it's, you know, that's...
00:36:59.000I mean, we're not using robots, we're using people.
00:37:01.000Exactly, and I think that's what's most important that we're talking about here.
00:37:07.000When we can take people and categorize them and say, well, this guy has X amount of melanin in his skin and his family's from this part of the world, so we'll apply rule A. Yeah.
00:37:19.000Versus if this guy is a Norwegian, white-looking motherfucker like yourself, you apply rule B. What do you got some Sweden in you?
00:38:13.000Yeah, man, I think it's just real disturbing.
00:38:17.000It was very disturbing when you were telling me this because it just doesn't make a whole lot of sense that some place that people would think of as such a liberal open-minded place like Madison, Wisconsin would be so fucking backwards like that and that no one's bringing this up.
00:38:35.000They first started bringing it up in 2012. Since then it's gotten worse.
00:38:40.000A couple of places have come out with studies on it.
00:38:46.000Basically, in Wisconsin, adult black men are 12 times more likely to be sent to prison than white guys.
00:38:52.000Black kids are 16 times more likely to be put into foster care than white kids.
00:38:58.000And of course, if you're in foster care, then you're more likely to be prescribed, you know, pills and all that fun stuff.
00:39:05.000And even for that, like in L.A. County, black foster kids are eight times more likely to be put on behavior-altering medication than white kids also in foster care.
00:39:16.000So, it's, they noticed that the numbers were really getting bad then, and then they tried some shit to fix it, and it just gotten worse, I guess.
00:39:30.000The funniest one was, I think it was in 2014, when there was another study that says, well, it's still getting worse.
00:39:39.000They proposed a $250,000 gardening initiative, where they would teach children to garden.
00:39:49.000You're locking up 50% of all African American men from 18 to 25. They're in jail or on probation.
00:39:58.000And your idea is to spend a quarter of a million dollars on gardening.
00:41:12.000If that's what they think will make a difference, then we're fucked.
00:41:18.000Yeah, I mean, that's probably a good idea for, like, maybe a community center that wants to help kids out and give them some sense of purpose, but to sort of subscribe that to criminals or to people that you've convicted of crimes or...
00:42:22.000And after everyone had a chance to talk, it was time for some hands-on gardening.
00:42:26.000One table was covered with dried lupin and Larkspur plants that the inmates stripped of seeds.
00:42:31.000After the gardening work was done, the inmates gathered again in a circle to talk about how to connect what they've learned from life after they're released.
00:42:38.000John is currently serving time for his sixth drunk driving conviction.
00:44:57.000Well, I'm fascinating as as a comic I'm fascinated by all those different There's like predetermined patterns that people can plug into like you can become a top 40 DJ and everybody knows how to do it top 40 DJ style.
00:45:13.000All right There's just a way of talking where it just say oh well this guy's gonna play me some top 40 songs I know his voice he's on the ball and He's doing it perfect.
00:46:33.000Because the only way you would accept a woman in office is a woman, like an old, withered politician like Hillary, who's been in the trenches our whole career!
00:47:20.000I mean, the sheer volume of information that that guy must have to process on a daily basis about international affairs between Putin and Syria and Saudi Arabia's doing what and what's going on in Turkey and the fucking terror attack in France and...
00:47:51.000It's like he's got a hundred really fucking...
00:47:56.000Strong, opinionated neighbors who like to fight with each other.
00:48:00.000And you've got to somehow or another negotiate peace settlements and even send some of your thugs to watch over certain areas to protect them from shit getting crazy.
00:48:10.000And he's constantly supposed to be communicating with all these generals and processing all that stuff.
00:48:17.000And then on top of it, he's supposed to be fixing the economy.
00:48:19.000And then on top of it, he's supposed to be straightening out the problem with people having student loans that are worth vastly more than their actual education.
00:48:43.000Maybe he was like, ah, I'm a senator from Illinois, so I guess my choices are get the fuck out of here or go to prison like every other elected official from Illinois.
00:50:36.000You think about when he was 30, and he's thinking to himself, you know, I'm going to be the president of the United States, I'm on this path, and I'm seeing all the pussy that...
00:50:44.000John F. Kennedy got, and I'm seeing all the power that all these other presidents had, and I'm seeing all the respect they got when they got out of office, and then Az obviously definitely didn't think that he would get all the pussy that JFK, I'm sure he's a faithful man.
00:51:27.000But Bush manages to go through, and then social media comes around.
00:51:30.000And in the midst of the social media world, that's when Obama steps in.
00:51:35.000So the amount of scrutiny and insults and the amount of data that's directed his way, as opposed to every other president before him, is like unprecedented.
00:51:46.000There's never been a guy that's been subject to so many different signals of negativity coming his way.
00:51:53.000Because before that, people were sort of voiceless.
00:54:13.000And these lawyers, who eventually become politicians, they like to win.
00:54:18.000People are like, why do you worry about her physically?
00:54:22.000Maybe I didn't explain, or maybe you haven't heard.
00:54:25.000It is alleged, and I think it's sort of been reported on, that she had blacked out and fallen and hit in her head recently in the last few years.
00:55:29.000Where he was standing in front of the United Nations, I believe, He gave a speech about how quickly we would all put our differences aside if we were attacked by aliens from another planet.
00:57:31.000Remember when there was like, that was the big conspiracy because Bush had like bruises and a black eye and shit and somebody beat the fuck out of the president.
00:57:38.000But then he said he choked with a pretzel in his mouth and fell and hit his face.
00:57:44.000Like if I was the Illuminati and I was going to beat up the president...
00:58:43.000I put Hillary Clinton and Dick Cheney kind of in the same boat as, like, the Henry Kiss, and you're like, oh yeah, they'll just do whatever.
00:58:52.000Like, if they decide someone needs to go, they'll just, you know, that's just that.
00:58:56.000Dick Cheney, who's a scary guy, and his...
00:59:22.000I mean, shit, he fucking engineered war profiteering against Against our own, you know, like so you think that he stays He stays active so that he avoids prosecution by constantly staying in the mix Yep, and George Bush did the opposite.
00:59:37.000So they both ran in separate directions Dick Cheney shows up and says well, we had to torture him because we needed intelligence good.
00:59:45.000It's good impression I try and then George Bush stays the fuck out of it because if you notice those guys don't travel internationally so much and Yeah, that's probably a bad move.
00:59:55.000They don't travel internationally because the jurisdiction for human rights violations is worldwide.
01:00:01.000It makes them technically hosti humani generis, meaning enemies of mankind at large.
01:00:06.000So, just like Spain did with Pinochet, any court can try them.
01:00:10.000They just need to be able to say that the courts in their home jurisdiction or where it happened are not able to do it, and then they can do it.
01:00:22.000They go to So do they have treaties with any countries?
01:00:25.000Is there any country that they know for sure won't prosecute them if they travel internationally?
01:00:30.000Yeah, there's jurisdictions where they know won't prosecute them.
01:00:34.000Like they can go to the UK? Well, but the thing is, the ability to prosecute Someone for war crimes under the Hague and you know because these trend these human rights violation rules trump all the treaties they trump fucking everything except for a couple small technical points so a County prosecutor in Nebraska could file the charges against Dick Cheney whoa and Although
01:01:04.000that might violate United States law and they might say you have to do it here or here or here No.
01:01:13.000So, any enterprising prosecutor in Spain, if they could lay their hands on them, they can do them.
01:01:20.000So, depending on the way that the country organizes its prosecution system, the lowest level person competent to make the decision could potentially try to jack them up.
01:01:54.000Because the fact that nobody's ever even tried to do that and the evidence is overwhelming and clear that Dick Cheney, you know, for instance, remember the guy who authored the report saying that torture was okay?
01:02:08.000That itself is a violation of international law for which you can be prosecuted.
01:02:15.000So, and that's just, that's the tip of the iceberg.
01:02:17.000So that guy can't, because when, if he, I mean, they can travel a little bit, but there's countries they can't go to because they'll snap them up and prosecute them.
01:02:27.000Because, yeah, these just, I forget exactly what I'm talking, like, it's hard to explain...
01:02:36.000Anyone can prosecute him for any of the shit Everybody has the proof and when he goes to other countries They will use the fact that we have not prosecuted him here as proof that we're not going to which will allow them to go forward So all it would take would be like say if he decides to make a trip to you know,
01:02:56.000whatever some European country Yeah, all would take is one ambitious person.
01:04:32.000A sentence only says that you should be confined for X amount of time, and the governor is in charge of the Department of Corrections, so he can let you out early if he feels like it.
01:04:46.000And county sheriff is in charge of the jail, and if county sheriff needs a room, he can kick you out.
01:07:28.000A Clinton friend from Arkansas spent 18 months in prison after refusing to give evidence that might implicate the president and first lady in a bank fraud while he was the state's governor.
01:08:22.000She had a three-and-a-half-hour meeting with the FBI. Yeah, Hillary did.
01:08:24.000I was seeing some other reports that Bill Clinton had a special in-air meeting with one of the people that were going to talk to her before it.
01:08:31.000Yeah, someone from Arizona or something like that.
01:11:23.000Something gonzo in Hollywood or something like that.
01:11:26.000It was like a documentary that they did.
01:11:28.000There should probably be a clip of it somewhere.
01:11:29.000My family hated Richard Nixon growing up because when Richard Nixon came to Wisconsin Rapids, my grandfather arranged for a Cadillac for him as he got off the plane.
01:11:41.000And to address the people, he stood on the Cadillac, scratched the hood with his shoes, and refused to pay for it.
01:13:48.000So they can create 11,000 fake profiles on Facebook and send out friend requests and now they know where everybody is who's got their shit marked public.
01:14:30.000They're obsessed with that stuff because they're curious because they're people.
01:14:34.000And so they collect it thinking we might get a use for this or we might figure out that somebody's a terrorist and then we'll get everybody that they call.
01:14:40.000And then they hang on to all this other stuff because that might be useful too.
01:15:01.000I mean, it really is other people's personal data, which we haven't really made the concession that if I use email, or if I make phone calls, or if I send texts, the government has all this.
01:15:22.000And every time something like that goes to court, in an actual court, as opposed to their FISA courts, where we're not even allowed to know what they're asking for, when they go in regular court, they lose.
01:15:35.000But then they just go and do it in the secret court that lets them do whatever the fuck they want.
01:15:39.000Well, also, do you know how many times terrorist attacks have been stopped by tapping into people's phones and reviewing people's emails?
01:16:02.000Where they talk a guy into blowing something up, give him a bomb, and then arrest him when he tries to detonate the bomb because the bomb wasn't real in the first place?
01:16:07.000Yeah, they used to do that to Black Panthers and everybody in the 60s and 70s.
01:16:13.000Yeah, and that was another thing that we learned about the Nixon administration with terms of the Civil rights movement and in terms of the anti-war movement.
01:18:36.000That's not exactly how Whitewater went down, but that is how most of the corrupt politicians that you see operate.
01:18:46.000Their wives have bullshit jobs, and the bribes are funneled through that in substantial part.
01:18:53.000And so it could be greenlighting something, or it could be...
01:18:58.000But yeah, it was just a real estate scandal.
01:19:00.000And it was probably just real estate investments that went bad.
01:19:04.000And their books probably were not in order, so then they had to keep their mouths shut.
01:19:08.000They probably weren't really fucking around that much.
01:19:10.000What's really fascinating is there's one that's more obvious and more blatant that no one bats an eye on, and that's the Dick Cheney-Halliburton connection.
01:19:18.000I mean, it's not family and it's not marriage, but when you look at the fact that this guy was a CEO of Halliburton and Halliburton gets these no-bid contracts for...
01:19:30.000And elected officials are supposed to kind of sequester their assets in trusts, blind trusts, so that they don't really know if they're benefiting their ownership interest in Halliburton or Kellogg Brown and Root.
01:22:17.000There are literally too many movies to watch because they don't stop making movies and you can never watch all the movies that have already been made.
01:22:23.000So it's like being in debt but still buying shit.
01:22:25.000There's no way you're gonna catch up on the great movies.
01:22:27.000I can't watch all the superhero movies that come out.
01:23:34.000I was just trying to remember, like, I remember when I saw the Avengers, the first one, a couple years ago, when it first came out, and they fucked up New York, and everyone loved it.
01:23:42.000Like, that was awesome, but it also could have been, it was the first time we saw the conglomeration of all the superheroes together.
01:23:48.000I could go back and watch it now and probably have different thoughts on it.
01:23:50.000Right, and if you do another one, well, we already know they get together.
01:23:54.000Like, the whole charm of them getting together for the first time has been worn off.
01:23:58.000And how are you going to get the Hulk to listen to you?
01:27:45.000And it's also getting hit today with these crazy flexi poles that have a certain amount of carbon fiber in them and they know exactly how to...
01:28:46.000That's where all his powers come from.
01:28:49.000They said that his stance and his stroke were unconventional.
01:28:53.000So in the unconventional stance and stroke, I don't know if this is true or not, but did that put any pressure whatsoever on his spine in some weird way too?
01:29:18.000When we pulled up the top ten earners the other day, I think we were doing the Fight Companion, I'd switched the amount of money they make from their sport to the amount of money they make from endorsements.
01:29:39.000It's the people that are endorsing them usually are run by golfers.
01:29:43.000Like big time business investors, they fucking love making meetings on golf courses.
01:29:49.000It's a point of focus and it's also a point of recreation because they gamble.
01:29:53.000You know, and they'll, you know, make deals with each other on golf courses.
01:29:57.000So if they have, like, Tiger Woods representing them, or Roger Federer, or whatever his name is, one of those dudes, one of those badass golfers do it, they, you know, they feel like they're cool.
01:30:28.000And what's really incredible about it, too, is that he went crashing to the ground, and then still, by the weight of his name, more than his accomplishments post-scandal, he's bounced back up to $45 million a year.
01:34:14.000One of the most exciting things to watch in all of sports, because they're just, especially if you could look at it from their point of view, I mean, you're grabbing the cushions of the couch going, fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck.
01:37:02.000Well, I was doing that on the side, but at one point I was like, hmm, they're never going to listen to this, so I guess I'm just going to go tell jokes.
01:38:15.000Mothers Against Drunk Driving keeps bringing the legal limit for alcohol down and down and down.
01:38:22.000But they don't change the study that they have the cops point to to say why the field sobriety tests work.
01:38:28.000So like in the 70s, the horizontal gaze nystagmus test would say that horizontal gaze nystagmus sets in prior to 45 degrees only if you're above a 0.2 or 0.2.
01:38:42.000But then they redid the study, and now it's.15.
01:38:47.000So, if you've ever seen somebody get pulled over by an officer, and then the officer has a bright light, and they're on the side of the road as a bunch of cars go past like fucking strobe lights, so they'll have you look at a pen, and then they'll trace it like this.
01:39:03.000And so, prior to 45 degrees, your eyes should track very smoothly if I move it quickly.
01:39:10.000If I move it slowly, there might be a little bit of stutter, but I'm supposed to do the test quickly.
01:39:16.000And then, if I put it there and hold it, I look for a little bit of aggravated nystagmus.
01:39:20.000And so, the National Highway Traffic and Safety Authority, or National Highway Traffic and Safety Board, put together this one, and then the one-leg stand, and the walk and turn test.
01:39:31.000And they say that You can tell if somebody's drunk if they fail these tests.
01:40:45.000What did they use to determine, I mean, if that was what was originally established, that you had to do this, the field sobriety test would indicate that someone was about, how, once the limit got lowered, how do they keep that same test?
01:41:06.000You could see it at.08 with no data to back it up at all?
01:41:09.000My dad's got the fucking manual from the 70s, he's got the manual from the 80s, he's got the manual from the 90s, he's got the manual from today.
01:42:01.000Yeah, the tests are subjective, and we pretend that one leg stand with seven potential cues is somehow an effective way of looking at somebody and telling if they're drunk.
01:44:26.000So you find out how long they were following him, and how much good driving and how much bad driving they viewed.
01:44:35.000So for that, you would, I mean, if you want to do a good job, let's say you're defending a very, very rich person who has the money to pay for this.
01:44:45.000So you're going to order the squad video and then you're going to open records request the radio communications and the teletypes from the squad car to everyone else because they might be saying something racist or they might be saying something...
01:44:58.000So you pull the teletypes, and then you're going to want the conduct records of all the officers, and then you're going to want to find out if you can pursue any administrative appeals of a temporary suspension of the license.
01:45:09.000So you're going to do that because two reasons.
01:45:12.000One, you don't want your client's license suspended, and two, you might also find some things because you might be able to get a couple of records and force the cops to show up and drop some paperwork off for you that you have in advance.
01:45:23.000Then you're going to look at the stop and you're going to file a motion saying that the stop was illegal because of X, Y, and Z. Then you'll argue about the bail conditions.
01:45:33.000Then you'll wait about six to eight weeks for the blood test results to come back as soon as they come back or even before You file a motion that you've been working on saying that the blood test results are problematic because they were illegally drawn or the facility is not accredited or the person who administered the test is not accredited or the machine has not been maintained properly.
01:45:58.000At the same time, you order the reports for the machine maintenance because you'll find that when they do the blanks, sometimes they're not...
01:46:06.000when they run them through a gas chromatograph mass spectrometer or whatever system they're going to use, When they do these samples, I mean, these are guys with technical college degrees or bachelor's degrees that have taken a six to eight week course.
01:46:19.000And they might be pretty good at it, but there are still fuck ups.
01:46:22.000And so sometimes things come in and they're not sealed.
01:46:25.000Sometimes there's a problem with the vacutainer that they use for the blood draw.
01:46:29.000And sometimes the stuff that they put in the vacutainer in advance Wow.
01:47:07.000Because if I can't see the code to the machine, We can't say at all if this machine works, if we don't know the code.
01:47:18.000And for a lot of these devices, the code is proprietary and they won't give you the code.
01:47:25.000So they won't allow you to know how some of the machines they use to watch you work.
01:47:30.000So you can't, as an attorney or as a defendant, you can't actually point to a problem and say, see, you didn't carry the one and you doubled my fucking result.
01:47:42.000You know, like, this shows that it was...
01:48:07.000So, like, and then the next point you do is you go and you try and settle the case, and you think, here are the guidelines, because most OWIs guideline offenses, most places, because people get a first one, and then they get a second, and a third, and a fourth, and a fifth.
01:48:21.000And even though the penalties go up, it's crazy, because the more OWIs people have, the less dangerous they tend to be during those OWIs.
01:48:28.000Like, sevens will hit parked cars all fucking day, but they don't kill people.
01:49:44.000Because, you know, stops are routinely rubber stamped, warrants rubber stamped, and the machines are generally agreed to be in working order.
01:49:55.000And in a lot of places, there are statutes meant to protect you from even being able to get this information.
01:50:03.000Things that really do work are like, bring their family to sentencing.
01:50:09.000Because most people who are convicted of crimes have been convicted of a couple of crimes, and nobody shows up for them anymore, and nobody gives a shit about them.
01:50:16.000And what's going to happen is they're going to go in, and they're going to do their time, and they're going to get out, and nobody's going to give shit about them, and then they're going to do something else, and then they're going to go back in.
01:50:23.000But if you've got a family there, the judge can see...
01:50:27.000Well, somebody still cares about this asshole.
01:50:29.000Somebody still thinks there's some good in him.
01:51:33.000And miraculously, every fucking expert I've ever offered money to, to give me their honest and completely unbiased opinion, has said I was right.
01:51:56.000They're whores, and they will say anything.
01:51:58.000And there's a business in being a whore, so like...
01:52:00.000Like, if you're looking for a guy who's a DNA expert, or you're looking for a guy who's a chemical expert, like, you know the guy to call because other friends have used him on similar cases.
01:53:09.000Now, do you think that this is because...
01:53:12.000I mean, are you communicating with these guys beforehand?
01:53:14.000Like, when you hire an expert, do you have any...
01:53:16.000I never, ever said anything to any of them about how I wanted them to say anything.
01:53:24.000And how much do you pay in these guys?
01:53:25.000Like, say if you bring a guy who's a fingerprints guy.
01:53:27.000If you, okay, if you're a public defender's office, you can pay no more than a grand, or $1,500 I think it is, and you gotta pay it out of your own pocket, and then they'll reimburse you in like six months after the trial's done.
01:53:41.000So, you don't have experts, functionally.
01:53:44.000If you got money, an expert can run you $15,000.
01:53:50.000But it depends on the type of case, if it's medical or if it's...
01:54:28.000It's just it costs money to fly someone to say that this guy did throw piss on this guard and here's a scientist who can say beyond a reasonable doubt that was piss.
01:54:40.000They really have to fly someone from Philadelphia sometimes to Wisconsin to say that was piss.
01:54:51.000That to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that it was piss in a felony trial, we need a scientist.
01:54:59.000So no wonder they're fucking whores, because that's the shit we put up.
01:55:03.000Like, we make them privy or part of our little stupid disputes like that continuously, and it warps them just the same way it warps everyone else.
01:55:23.000But not important, because what if something happens, and you happen to be driving while black, and all of a sudden you're in the same situation that you described.
01:55:43.000Well, I think talking about it is huge.
01:55:46.000I wasn't aware of it to the extent, obviously I have zero knowledge of what it's like in Madison, Wisconsin, other than the few times I've visited.
01:55:53.000So hearing you describe it, and especially zero knowledge of what it's like inside the criminal justice system, but hearing you describe it, It's pretty disheartening.
01:56:08.000It seems like if you're looking at the raw data, as far as what happens to people if they're black and what happens to people if they're white, if they're first offenders.
01:56:24.000You know, I was in Yellowstone recently, and it was really beautiful.
01:56:29.000But one of the things that was freaking me out was that it was created by an act of Congress in 1872. And I was thinking, good Lord, like 1872, you know, I was alive in 1972. That's not that long ago.
01:57:13.000Byron's black, and he was talking about his grandmother remembering his great-grandmother telling her about the invention of the cotton gin.
01:58:17.000There's countries that are seven times as old as we are.
01:58:24.000I want to say one more thing about that criminal justice system.
01:58:28.000It's weird because, yeah, gas-powered automobile, electricity, telecommunications, space travel, end of slavery, and we still have fundamentally the same criminal justice system.
02:00:03.000Well, President Trump's going to build a nice wall and stop everything.
02:00:09.000See, what I think we should do is, I think we should fucking put the feelers out, put the vibes out, and then if we see, like, a population that gets treated like shit, we should fucking just steal them.
02:00:20.000Just like, you know, there's countries where it's illegal to be homosexual, but...
02:00:30.000Usually they make a lot of money, they got a lot of discretionary income, because most of the time they don't have kids, they go for the economy.
02:00:37.000What do you think is going to happen if Trump becomes president and we have this social justice warrior president of Canada, their prime minister is like, they're going to explore the idea of gender neutral identity cards.
02:02:37.000Do you think a guy should get off with time served plus restitution if you can make...
02:02:44.000Dick porn in jail, like say if that guy didn't do anything like too terrible, maybe just robbed a bunch of liquor stores or something like that, and all of a sudden he's in jail, and he realizes that he's practiced by himself in his zen room so long that he could get his dick hard and come all over himself.
02:03:13.000I think he should start by, I think anyone who's interested in doing that, whatever correctional facility they're in, perhaps write to the judge that sentenced you and request that you do the same, or just an opportunity.
02:03:24.000I have no doubt that people can do that because if someone can have a wet dream, that means their fantasy is allowing them to ejaculate.
02:03:31.000So I think there's some people that have done some really amazing things with their mind, right?
02:03:35.000Like there's people that practice kundalini yoga and they get to some place where they can have some trance and they have psychedelic states.
02:04:10.000But it must happen because that's what also happened up in upstate New York when those guys got free and those murders, they tracked them to Canada.
02:04:16.000The woman was supposed to let them out.
02:04:18.000They escaped and the woman was supposed to meet them outside.
02:05:13.000Ooh, I've never heard that word before.
02:05:14.000I've never heard anybody use that in a verb.
02:05:17.000Yeah, because he was saying that they would unzip their flies, potentially, and then take advantage of the fact that we didn't say anything about it the next time.
02:05:29.000Basically, to get us to commit a minor offense, or break a little rule, or lead us a little bit down the path, and then next time they would try to take their dicks out.
02:05:42.000Okay, so if you don't call him out on having his fly down, it's an offense?
02:06:29.000They're not made of money, so they can't pay some expert to write a report saying that jail would hurt their feelings, which they fucking do if you have money.
02:06:39.000It comes down to a lot of being able to take ownership of what happened and what you did.
02:06:44.000And a lot of sociopaths are in prison because they're too stupid to listen to how everybody else apologizes.
02:06:51.000So sociopaths will say something like, you know, I'm sorry that I played a part in all of this.
02:07:00.000Or, you know, I'm not going to put myself in situations like this anymore, Your Honor.
02:07:05.000When they're being convicted of beating the shit out of somebody, they'll say, I'm not going to put myself in situations like this.
02:07:46.000And the only people who fuck up the apologies in that specific way are almost completely incapable of putting themselves in anybody else's shoes.
02:07:58.000And those types of people tend to do certain types of things.
02:08:03.000Where they're always out for themselves, me, me, me.
02:08:39.000In your experience dealing with so many of these different people and so many different criminals, do you think it's a nature thing or a nurture thing?
02:09:02.000Like, didn't they say that Jeffrey Dahmer, wasn't he a good example of a guy who allegedly had a pretty stable childhood with loving parents and became a serial killer?
02:09:24.000But, yeah, I mean, people who do that generally have kind of similar histories.
02:09:30.000Well, if you think about the way a human being could vary, the way we behave, you could be, like, the most beautiful, generous, kind, caring person, or you could be a brutal dictator in the Congo and chopping people's arms off.
02:09:43.000You could be either one of those and still be a human being.
02:09:46.000So if you think about that, and you think about the conditions that you have to sort of adapt to, and if you're growing up in some hellacious condition, and you adapted to that hellacious condition, and you are literally a product of society.
02:10:00.000Now, when you come across people like that, because you're in the criminal defense attorney world, and you have to represent these people, Do you try to think, like, is there a way to fix this guy?
02:10:13.000I mean, do you put that in your head, or do you just go and try to win?
02:10:24.000For a lot of these guys, too many witnesses, too much of a record, it's coming down to this fucking apology.
02:10:30.000It's coming down to our plan for what we're gonna do next, and talking with them and coming up with a reasonable plan about what they're gonna do after jail, or what they could do instead of jail.
02:10:41.000And addressing why they did something wrong.
02:10:47.000I would go through with my clients a lot of times if I wasn't sure that they were getting it, and I would be like, okay, so you're going to have to give an apology to the judge.
02:10:55.000You're going to have to tell them that what you did is wrong.
02:10:57.000You're going to have to tell them that you know that it was wrong.
02:10:59.000And you're going to have to tell them you know why it was wrong.
02:11:01.000So, why is it wrong to hit your girlfriend?
02:13:33.000You've never been in the community with more than this for more than this length of time without doing this and I'd be like well We can't lie to them and tell them like I would make a list of shit that I wish was true and I'd be like one of these things can I fucking just make true like Can I get this person to do these job applications?
02:13:55.000Like, if I could bail him out for, like, if I can get him to make his bail, if I can get his bail low enough, and then I can get him to submit job applications every single week, it was a lie when I came up with it a couple minutes ago, but in six months,
02:14:12.000when this case finally goes in front of the judge...
02:14:43.000So do you feel like you're coaching these guys not just through their trial, but maybe through their understanding of the implications of their crime as well?
02:14:50.000Like, are you in some way sort of educating them into, you know, because they have to be honest about it.
02:14:58.000Maybe educated about the impact of their choices.
02:15:01.000Yeah, yeah, I would I mean to the extent that I thought it was appropriate like because I'm in a position of power you know Emotional abuse is not proper.
02:15:29.000I've had some guys that make my skin crawl.
02:15:32.000And, like, I've sat next to people who've, you know...
02:15:38.000Done horrible things to people where they don't make my skin crawl and yet these other people are just so far beyond them in terms of like we don't like we should probably lock you up forever like and you can't do anything because you you you sort of have a mandate right you have to win oh yeah I have to make them beat me oh Do you drink after work?
02:16:16.000Well, because the thing is, as a defense attorney, you're going to get your ass handed to you so many fucking times that if I drank one time for every time I didn't like what a judge decided, I would have been dead seven years ago.
02:17:17.000Well, I was in Wisconsin, but I moved here in January of last year, and honestly, I really like Pauly Shore.
02:17:28.000No, like, I was a kid in the 80s, so when I would see Sam Kinison on TV, and Pauly Shore on TV, and everybody on TV, like, it always wound its way back to the store.
02:17:42.000Like, Pauly Shore's first album is, I think, recorded at the Comedy Store, and you can hear Ron Jeremy and Gary Coleman in the background.
02:17:51.000And, like, Laugh Factory doesn't hire comics, you know, and improv is it.
02:17:58.000Like, the store is kind of an icon, and I worked in comedy clubs before, so I was like, hey.
02:18:04.000Also, the reality of it is, like, the potluck is so hard to get on.
02:18:10.000That Monday night potluck and I had signed up every single Monday for six months and I hadn't gotten on once and then They they put out a list saying they're gonna do auditions for the new door guys.
02:18:24.000So I signed up for it So that I could get on the potluck But then it just went really well Wow Six months.
02:20:05.000Bobby Lee, Tom Papa, Bobby Lee, Eliza, Crystalia, me, Jeselnik, Ron White, Andrew Santino, Joey Diaz, Donnell Rawlings, Jesus Christ, and on and on and on.
02:20:30.000I mean, the guy in the second to last spot created one of the shows on NBC that's going into its third season, and the guy who's going dead last had a movie on Comedy Central.
02:21:00.000And many guys have gone from being in the position of being a doorman or working the cover booth or what have you to being like Ari Shafir, perfect example.
02:22:51.000Like you see, like Roast Battle's a perfect example of that.
02:22:54.000I mean, how many people crush at Roast Battle that you've never heard of before, and they're writing ridiculously funny jokes and crushing each other.