Muay Thai has finally made it to the big screen, and we're here to talk about it! We talk about the history of Muay Thai in America, what it's like being a martial arts fighter, and what it means to be a fan of the sport. We also talk about some of the history behind the sport, and why it's one of the most underrated combat sports in the world. We also get into some of our favorite moments from the past and talk about what we look forward to in the future, and who we think could be the next big name to come in the martial arts world. We hope you enjoy this episode, and don't forget to subscribe on your favorite streaming platform so you don't miss the next episode! If you like what you hear, please HIT SUBSCRIBE and leave us a rating and review on Apple Podcasts! We'll see you next Tuesday! Cheers, EJ & Matt! -The EJ Crew -Your Hosts: & Matt & Matt Thanks to our sponsor, for sponsoring this episode. Thank you EJ and Matt for making this podcast possible. We appreciate you guys so much, we really appreciate you. We really appreciate your support. -Jon & Matt. We can't wait for you to listen to the next one, we're working on it! -Jon and Matt, we'll be back next week! Jon & Matt, too! Love ya'll! -EJ and you're a good friend of the EJ is a lot! -P.S. <3 -Sue Jon and Matt - Thank you so much! -MMA is a big thank you, Matt, Matt & Ben Mike and Ben -A. . -Dana White -PJ & Jake - -Ben Joe -K1 is a little bit more -Bruh - BONUS: - P.J. is a good guy? - Ben is a great guy too! -BENNYC -JUY & B.C. -J. & BOBY - K1 is great guy? -BONUS CONTENT: -B.B. is great? -JAY & JUICY? CHEER - JAY & BABY RYAN
00:00:45.000But to see that and then to see us just with nothing, no coverage whatsoever for so long and, you know, it's finally on TV but still relatively under the radar.
00:00:55.000It's tough to watch, but knowing that it's going to be there eventually, it's just a matter of time, you know?
00:01:17.000We talked about this today, but Dana White had a point that I think he's probably right about, is that in a lot of people's eyes in America, kickboxing got kind of poisoned with that whole PKA karate stuff that was on in like the 80s or the 90s.
00:01:31.000Yeah, it put a bad taste in people's mouths.
00:01:33.000So it's hard to break free from that mentality of you think kickboxing, you think Muay Thai, you think pants fighting.
00:03:47.000Whereas in Muay Thai, especially in Thailand, you see a tremendous amount of clinching and it's very technical.
00:03:52.000There's a lot going on in that clinching.
00:03:54.000And I've always maintained, I've been a big fan of Lion Fight because what Lion Fight is doing is giving you the actual pure Muay Thai, other than the dancing and the music and all the stuff that happens before in a traditional Muay Thai fight.
00:04:10.000Yeah, they're doing a really good job.
00:04:12.000And as you said, they've had to limit a few of the things in order to get it out there to the general public, which it's unfortunate.
00:04:19.000You can't just throw it out there in people's faces with all the culture and the traditions, particularly here in America.
00:04:25.000People would turn away from it so fast.
00:04:28.000So I think at some point we'll be able to build up to that.
00:04:31.000If you start slowly educating people on what that is and the history and everything and We're good to go.
00:04:56.000You know, different gyms, different people do longer and shorter ones.
00:05:01.000You know, I do a very limited shorter one when I fight.
00:05:06.000Well, I haven't done it in forever, but because of that, you know, and knowing that people don't really want to see it, you know, you kind of Americanize it and shorten it, where some of them, I've seen some longer wide crews than fights in the past.
00:06:04.000Not everyone there is actively training or fighting or has fought, but it's so embedded in their culture that they just love it and they appreciate it.
00:06:21.000But in America, if you go to see a live event in America, half of the audience, at least, is either people from the gym or people that know people from the gym.
00:06:29.000And it's sort of almost an incestuous kind of an environment.
00:06:32.000Yeah, especially like when I was coming up, the only people that were there...
00:06:37.000We're family or friends of the people fighting, you know, so that you weren't hitting this wider audience, you know, where now it is getting on TV and there are people seeing it who don't know anything about it.
00:06:49.000And it's slowly building momentum and getting out there and getting a little more popular.
00:06:53.000But it's just one of those sports where, you know, it's not for everybody and you got to...
00:08:00.000I was in LA a couple years back when they had that big pro Muay Thai event.
00:08:05.000They had a lot of big name fighters fight, and Buakau fought, and he apparently had some beef with some dude that he was gonna fight, and there was a lot of shit talk back and forth.
00:08:14.000So he had this long Y crew where he was shooting arrows at him.
00:08:48.000They'd be more likely to come out to a local person because at least, like, hey, that guy fights out of California or whatever.
00:08:55.000And that's been the biggest thing that's slowed Muay Thai down is these promotions try to go too hard out the gate as opposed to building it up, which, you know, you got to lose a lot of money and build these people.
00:09:07.000With anything, you got to start, slow, and build people gradually, build the promotion, build the fighters, build your audience, and eventually you can get to that level where everyone on the card is like top 10 people.
00:09:18.000But you can't do that from the beginning when you were just trying to grow and build.
00:09:21.000Yeah, I remember I went to the event and Larry Merchant was there.
00:09:25.000Remember the boxing guy, Larry Merchant was there.
00:10:24.000And it's such a dynamic, technical sport.
00:10:28.000And that's one of the things I think is probably...
00:10:32.000It probably slips by some people when the casual observer is watching it.
00:10:36.000Just some of the stuff that we were doing today, where you were showing me just the little shifts and variations and stances and little things like that.
00:10:47.000When you train in it, when you try it, it makes the experience of watching people compete in it richer.
00:10:58.000It's not just guys going, and just trying to fucking kick each other.
00:11:02.000Yeah, and there's so many levels to this, and your casual fan isn't going to know that.
00:11:07.000And a big problem a lot of promotions make is...
00:11:10.000They try to cut corners and put guys out there who aren't very good, but both those guys are at the same level.
00:11:16.000So if you're an average person, they're kicking and punching each other.
00:11:19.000They might be very, very low level, but they just wanted to get some cheap people they could put on the air.
00:11:25.000So they'll cut all these corners just to save some money, but in the end it hurts everybody because you're putting crappy fights out there.
00:11:34.000Not good matchups, not very talented guys because you want to save some money, or they'll spend so much money on the main event and the co-main event that they have to cut those corners with everybody else.
00:11:45.000And so you're putting these crappy fights out there, and you're trying to bring this new audience in, so people come and are like, this is terrible.
00:11:53.000You know, because they're bad matchups.
00:11:55.000And as we were talking about Lion Fight, what they did from the beginning was they had quality matchups throughout the entire card, whether it was the main event, whether it was the undercard, whether it was the amateurs.
00:12:04.000They were good, exciting matchups, regardless of the level.
00:12:07.000And that's what really helped build them up.
00:12:10.000Now, how long have you been fighting in Muay Thai now?
00:12:13.000I started when I was 10 back in Lima, Peru.
00:12:43.000Man, my first coach, Rodrigo, you know, he had a vision of the sport, you know, when he first started.
00:12:50.000He came here to train with Alex Gong at Fairtex San Francisco, you know, it was very small, but he went back and I remember I started training with him and it was, everything was so small back then.
00:12:59.000Like, the amount of talent there is now, like, I mean, Kevin and Kieran saw it when we went to Peru last November.
00:13:05.000Kieran's hiding in the corner over there.
00:13:48.000It's just fascinating that that one part of the world is starting to produce a lot of really high-level talent.
00:13:54.000And then, talking to you about it, you were saying that it's like soccer, and then Muay Thai is really coming up in popularity behind soccer, which sounds crazy to me.
00:14:02.000Yeah, and then our soccer team sucks, so...
00:14:07.000Everybody's trying to turn to Muay Thai.
00:14:13.000Muay Thai is the predominant striking art in MMA. It's the most, I would say, probably the most successful striking art in MMA because it has all the elements of boxing and a lot of the elements of a lot of the other traditional martial arts, but There's something about the combination of kicks and elbows and the technical style of Muay Thai that really lends itself to MMA. And I think when Maurice Smith came along,
00:14:41.000like Maurice Smith was probably the first guy who was like a really high-level technical striker who gave MMA a try and was showing everybody the effectiveness of Muay Thai in MMA. But for whatever reason, it translated to Muay Thai getting more popular in MMA,
00:14:59.000but it didn't necessarily translate to Muay Thai getting that much more popular.
00:15:03.000Yeah, it's one of those things that...
00:15:07.000With MMA, it kind of helps and it hurts.
00:15:09.000It helps in the sense that it gets it out there, but it can hurt as well when you're getting a bad representation of the sport you do.
00:15:17.000So for a good stand-up striker in MMA, they might not be that great when it comes to real Muay Thai.
00:15:24.000So you're saying, hey, this guy's got really great stand-up.
00:15:27.000Well, he has really great stand-up for MMA. So people assume that's what good stand-up looks like in MMA. Muay Thai or traditional stand-up art.
00:15:37.000So it's the pros and cons of it getting out there.
00:15:43.000Everything kind of helps as well as takes away from the sport, too.
00:15:47.000Well, I think all martial arts make an adjustment.
00:15:49.000They have to make a technical adjustment when they're being applied to MMA because you have to deal with the takedowns.
00:15:55.000And even wrestling and judo had to make adjustments for Muay Thai.
00:16:00.000Because as soon as you involved leg kicks and then knees, you know, a lot of guys were shooting for takedowns and they're getting knee to face.
00:16:43.000I mean, I didn't really think anything of it at the time.
00:16:46.000You know, this was, what, like 10 years ago, you know, and we would just fight everywhere, anywhere, whatever, you know, and not really think twice about it, and...
00:17:05.000And then when we got back to the States, I was having headaches all the time.
00:17:10.000I just thought I had a bad concussion, you know, but like up to like almost like a month later, I kept seeing these like flashes of light.
00:17:17.000Anytime someone would ever touch me, you know, I'd be working with like little kids or girls and smaller people and just them touching me, I'd get this like jolt and you know, it was kind of freaking me out.
00:17:26.000And I was getting ready for another fight and I had to get my MRI or a CAT scan.
00:17:48.000When was the last time you heard that?
00:17:49.000If I get knocked out one more time, I'm dead.
00:17:52.000If it was one inch closer to my spine, I'd be dead.
00:17:55.000It was a pretty rough thing to happen, and I couldn't do anything other than hit the bag by myself for, I don't remember how long it was to let it heal.
00:20:16.000So everyone you met, everyone you talked to, every gym you went to, every fight you went to, you were surrounded by people that had the same heart and mentality as you.
00:20:25.000Whereas now, you know, people are doing it for different reasons.
00:20:28.000You know, maybe they want to get famous or they want to get Instagram followers or, you know, they want to look cool doing pad work.
00:20:35.000And that's kind of the good and the bad of things getting bigger.
00:20:38.000So you think that by the sport getting more popular, by more people paying attention to it, it opens up the door to more people doing it, but they just don't have the pure intention.
00:21:18.000And again, it was in a time where if I don't take this fight, who knows when another fight's going to come along.
00:21:24.000You've got to take what you can get when you can get it, and that's why I'm fighting people who outweigh me by 30 pounds, and just taking a fight on a couple hours notice, because...
00:21:34.000There wasn't opportunities, so you gotta do what you had to do to get in there, to get experience, and that was the only way you were gonna get fights.
00:21:42.000Was it difficult to motivate yourself during those times?
00:21:45.000Because for a lot of people, motivation requires some sort of an end goal.
00:22:55.000My mentality was always, I'm always going to be playing catch-up.
00:22:59.000No matter how good I get, I'm playing catch-up.
00:23:01.000And so I've got to do everything I can, every way I can.
00:23:03.000Maybe it wasn't the smartest thing, but I wouldn't be where I am today if I didn't take those risks and maybe take those not-so-smart fights.
00:23:11.000But yeah, there is a fine line between Putting yourself out there and being dangerous.
00:23:41.000Well, the first time I ever saw Muay Thai was like 94, 94 or 96. They went back when ESPN used to play them late at night, like the old school fights.
00:23:53.000I'd always thought about boxing and doing some kind of fighting, but I always loved martial arts, you know, and When I saw Muay Thai, I was like, that's it, man.
00:24:02.000Because every other kind of thing with, like, kicking and knees was, like, taekwondo or point fighting and not that real boxing style of hardcore fighting, you know?
00:24:13.000So when I saw Muay Thai, I was like, if I'm going to do anything, that's going to be it.
00:24:18.000But unfortunately, at that time, I was too busy living in Vegas and drinking myself to death every day and partying, you know, and...
00:24:27.000It was never one of those serious things.
00:25:29.000If you want to do something, you can do it.
00:25:31.000And he was born with a bad heart, and he ended up passing away.
00:25:36.000And I promised myself when he died that I would do it.
00:25:39.000I was like, I'm going to go after this dream, if not for myself, then for him.
00:25:44.000Because he was never able to live, you know?
00:25:47.000And unfortunately, his death sent me just in a really bad downward spiral, even more so than I was already in drinking and partying and all that stuff.
00:25:56.000This continued on for years and years and through a month-long series of really horrible things happening, like friends dying or almost killing people, drunk driving, and myself getting pulled over, doing like 120 on the 215 in Vegas.
00:26:11.000And for whatever reason, the cop let me go.
00:27:10.000Why is the most important to put everything you have into it?
00:27:14.000I've just always believed if you're going to do something, it's all or nothing.
00:27:19.000I never wanted to half-ass it and that's why I knew if I was gonna do this I'd have to give up partying and drinking and hanging out with my friends and going out all the time and I wasn't ready to do that you know I've always been in that mentality of if you're gonna do something do it you do it all the way you don't do it at all because because you're sabotaging yourself and then you can just say oh I didn't make it because of this that and the other Right,
00:27:43.000but what were you getting out of it when you realized that it wasn't really about how good you get or how far you go, it was about giving it everything you have?
00:27:54.000A lot of it had to do with seeing my friend pass away at 18, you know?
00:28:00.000There's no reason to ever halfway do something because there's people who don't get the opportunity to even attempt to go after these things because of whatever reason.
00:28:19.000And you owe it to yourself and you owe it to them to give it everything that you have.
00:28:24.000I always felt like I owed him something.
00:28:27.000Everything to go after my life with everything I had all my dreams I need to go after a hundred percent because there's people that don't get to I'm asking this because I think this is a common theme with people is that when they're pursuing a dream or when they're attempting to do something they realize somewhere along the line that You're doing something more than just like trying to get really good at Muay Thai or whatever you know fill in the blank with whatever sport it is your I I was the expression I was used is that martial arts Are
00:28:57.000a vehicle for developing your human potential.
00:28:59.000And I think that until you have a really difficult task in front of you, like becoming a professional Muay Thai fighter, which is one of the most difficult tasks in all combat sports, until you have that task in front of you, until you go down that road and realize how much is actually required of you,
00:29:15.000you don't know how much you can give to something.
00:29:17.000And once you do realize how much you're capable of giving you something, and then you can give a little more, and then you can give a little more, and then you realize, like, did I give my all?
00:29:42.000Yeah, well, in the beginning, as I said, for me, it's always been all or nothing.
00:29:46.000You know, I didn't realize that at the time, but looking back, I can kind of understand the mentality behind it, is there's so many things that are going to come up that will deter you from going after it.
00:29:57.000Maybe you get injured, or maybe you're not getting the opportunities, and if you're not in it, 100%, those things are going to steer you away.
00:30:05.000Those things are going to make you quit.
00:30:07.000People kind of look at people who have made it as if they just had this easy path and all of a sudden they're in the spotlight and they're a world champion and doing these things.
00:30:15.000But it's like any person who's made it to a high level, whether it's an athlete or a business person, if you go back in their life and see the things they've had to do and overcome and the obstacles in their way, you have no idea.
00:30:28.000And that's why everyone's like, well, they didn't have to deal with this, or they didn't have to deal with this.
00:30:32.000You don't know what they had to deal with.
00:30:38.000You know, like, if you watch, like, Gabriel go out the other night, you look at him, he's 19 years old, he destroys that guy, what was the guy's name, Josh Shepard, who was a really talented fighter himself, goes out and destroys this guy in the first round, like, well, how hard could he have worked?
00:30:51.000He's fucking 19. Dude, I was training that kid.
00:30:54.000I mean, Kieran and I were training that kid, and I was running him to the ground every single day.
00:32:12.000I've always wondered like is it that life just you burden yourself down with responsibility and information and just life itself, relationships, bills, bullshit, stress, existential angst, the fucking grave calling,
00:32:32.000You can't really pinpoint it on one specific thing.
00:32:35.000And everybody's variables are going to be different.
00:32:38.000We all have different things to overcome and deal with.
00:32:41.000Just because I view yours as maybe they're not that difficult, I don't know everything he's dealing with.
00:32:46.000He doesn't know everything I'm dealing with or have had to overcome.
00:32:49.000But if I sat there and listened to his story, I'm like, geez, I wouldn't want to do that.
00:32:53.000I'm sure it's a crazy story, but when you go back and watch Mike Tyson when he was 19, You see Mike Tyson hitting the bag with Teddy Atlas when he's 19. You just go, Jesus fucking Christ.
00:33:45.000And I was just taking as many fights, anywhere from 132 pounds to 147. Any fight that I could possibly take, I needed to get the experience.
00:36:06.000One of the most important things for a young fighter is to find the right environment to develop and we were talking about that earlier today like you can get unlucky and Find a bad coach in a bad gym and you get all tangled up with that person psychologically and they become family and then you know You're kind of fucked.
00:36:24.000Yeah, it's a very difficult break for a lot of fighters to make and Yeah, man.
00:36:28.000Honestly, I've been truly blessed since I started all the way to now.
00:36:33.000I started with Rodrigo, then Fairtex, I was with Johnson, somebody who Kevin still trains with to this day a little bit.
00:36:41.000I've always had really good coaching since I started.
00:36:45.000Another unfortunate thing is just because somebody's a great coach doesn't mean they're great for you.
00:36:51.000You know, so sometimes you'll see these people, like, leave their camps and go to this really high-level coach who's had a lot of success with certain individuals, but that doesn't mean they're going to be great for you.
00:37:00.000So I try to always tell people, you have to find what works best for you, whether it's a coach, whether it's your diet, whether it's your training schedule.
00:37:09.000What works for me won't always work for you.
00:37:11.000You've got to find what's best for you, and that doesn't always necessarily mean I need this great coach, because you guys might just clash.
00:37:42.000I've watched a lot of videos of you guys training together.
00:37:44.000I mean, how critical is that to have someone who's an elite fighter that trains with you on a daily basis?
00:37:50.000It's one of the most important things.
00:37:52.000There's so many factors that go into building a fighter.
00:37:56.000It's not just one thing, you know what I mean?
00:37:58.000And that one thing needs to constantly be adjusted because the way I train today isn't how I trained even a year ago.
00:38:06.000You continually need to be hopping back and forth on this line of too much and too little of one thing.
00:38:11.000What's the difference between how you train today versus how you train a year ago?
00:38:14.000I'd say the older I get, the more it's a mental approach kind of thing.
00:38:22.000My technique isn't going to be altered that much at this stage, but the way that I apply them, the way I go about them, the way I think about them, very much is going to change.
00:38:34.000At a certain stage, it's like you have all these weapons to use.
00:38:37.000It's just a matter of which ones you use, at which time, at which speed.
00:38:41.000In the way that you apply them, where in the beginning you're just trying to do things well and you're trying to almost put all these tools in the toolbox as your career develops.
00:38:50.000But at a certain stage, not to say I'm not adding more, is that I have all these tools.
00:38:55.000I need to figure out which ones work best for me and which ones work for me at which time against which opponent, which venue, which sport.
00:39:47.000She was in Austria in a skiing accident.
00:39:49.000They took some meat out of her calf, which I've never even I haven't even heard of before and reconstructed it.
00:39:55.000Well, like, you know, there was those options, but I was like, I don't want to take anything else out of myself that might weaken that thing.
00:40:04.000So for me, it was, and in talking to other athletes that have had it, it just, it seemed like the better approach for me, and it has worked best for me.
00:40:16.000I had my left one done with a patella tendon graft where they take a big chunk of your patella tendon with a piece of bone from your shin and a piece of bone from your knee.
00:40:23.000And it's fine, but that was like a year before it felt good again.
00:40:28.000But the right knee, I have zero problems with it.
00:41:35.000Your body fills it up with cells because they reattach the blood supply and as your body starts, it starts using that to regenerate tissue.
00:42:01.000The human body, the ACL in particular.
00:42:04.000I'm just going to get everything replaced.
00:42:06.000Well, as soon as you figure out heel hooks, as soon as people figure out heel hooks, you just realize, like, oh my god, my knee is, like, so stupid.
00:44:47.000Like we do a lot of technical sparring, you know, with no gear on and stuff.
00:44:51.000If you have all these pads on and you have this false sense of security and then you get in there with someone who's got nothing on and it's just like you're kicking things wrong and you're catching elbows and you're messing your feet up because you haven't...
00:45:03.000Learned how to place things correctly and where they need to go and where you maximize their damage and minimize yours.
00:45:10.000Is there a point of diminishing returns though with a heavy bag where like at a 300-pound bag and you're kicking it, it's probably not developing your power as much as even maybe a 150-pound bag would.
00:47:29.000When you think about Muay Thai fighters just being this mindless, like we're just going to throw power at each other and just stand there and we have no thought or process behind anything.
00:47:39.000Yeah, there's definitely fighters who do that.
00:47:41.000And maybe to an outside observer, they might not see all the small...
00:47:46.000Details and the complexity of the things they're doing, just because I'm standing in front of you not moving doesn't mean there's no thought behind it.
00:47:54.000It's like I've learned how to use those head movement and footwork things on a very, very small scale.
00:48:02.000So to me, I am doing a lot of movement and footwork, but to an outside person, I'm just standing there mindlessly just winging shots at each other.
00:48:10.000So you don't see all the complexity that goes into it where I can watch it and view those things very well.
00:48:16.000Is it one of those things where you're watching, like say, if you're watching an MMA fight, for example, where a lot of times when you're watching MMA, you're watching someone who's pretty good at a bunch of different things, but not maybe technically proficient at any of those things.
00:48:30.000And you're seeing a lot of that, where guys are just kind of standing in front of each other and almost playing Muay Thai, right?
00:48:38.000And as a high-level fighter, do you guys watch MMA and go, Oh my god.
00:48:46.000I mean, especially, it hits me really hard sometimes.
00:48:51.000Friday night lion fights, you're there live, and then you're watching whatever UFC or whatever other card there is on, and you're on TV, and it's like, oh my god.
00:50:35.000I've said some things to Scott about it, and I think they're just trying to establish that kickboxing side of their cards, and hopefully one day he might bring in some Muay Thai fights.
00:50:50.000Maybe once the Bellator kickboxing can be more of a standalone...
00:53:28.000But yeah, Sanchez is one of those guys, like, he doesn't fight like a traditional Muay Thai fighter, and he's the best Muay Thai fighter of all time, arguably, you know?
00:54:15.000I think Lawrence just does him under his name, but he's a really, really smart guy and really, really aware of Muay Thai and really aware of the complexities.
00:54:25.000And he did a breakdown on Sanchai and one of the things Sanchai setting up high kicks.
00:54:45.000And that's kind of what we were speaking of earlier in the gym is...
00:54:50.000It's just that one thing, his kick, but he has so many ways and variables to set that up as far as speed, and so he uses all these things to test you, and once he figures that out, you're done.
00:54:58.000And that's how he's able to destroy basically everyone at every level of the sport, because he has so many answers to that one question.
00:55:27.000It's kind of ironic having Cecil Peoples be the referee in a fight that's a Muay Thai fight because Cecil Peoples is one of those guys that says that you can't stop people with leg kicks.
00:57:05.000A lot of times they're like, I'm going to let you guys work in the clinch, but you're not doing anything and they just let it go.
00:57:12.000Not knowing when people are stalling out or trying to buy time or just moving their legs for the sake of looking like they're actually kneeing each other.
00:57:20.000These judges and these refs don't have an understanding of that.
00:57:24.000That's an issue with ground fighting as well.
00:57:39.000But I think that in the clinch as well.
00:57:41.000There's a lot of times they separate guys from the clinch when...
00:57:44.000Two guys, if they're clinching up and they're both working to try to establish dominant positions, one is eventually, maybe, going to win that dominant position battle, and that's part of the grind.
00:57:54.000Part of the grind is a guy imposing his skill set, his will, his conditioning, all the above, on his opponent.
00:57:59.000And if you just get in and separate that because you want to watch a knockout, you're kind of diluting the sport.
00:58:04.000And it's like I don't care how many fights you've watched or how many courses you've taken.
00:58:09.000If you haven't done this before, if you've never fought before, you don't know what's going on in there.
00:58:15.000You have people, even if they've been in the sport for a very long time and may have been around it for a very long time, if you've never fought, at least at some level, you don't know what's going on in there.
00:58:25.000Yeah, you're seeing it, but you really don't know what you're seeing.
00:58:31.000And you don't know how much of it is actually effective, and how much of it the guy's actually just absorbing things and blocking things.
00:58:39.000It's so complex, and I think that's one of the things that gets lost about...
00:58:42.000Fighting arts in general, but Muay Thai in particular, is all of the complexity that goes on.
00:58:48.000Like, what you were saying, that a lot of people, the misconception is that they're looking at two guys that are just bruisers.
00:58:53.000But what I'm watching here, I'm watching all this complex interactions of footwork and kicks and elbows and knees and clenching and knowing when to time things and dealing with a really high-level opponent who's very crafty and he's sort of...
00:59:09.000Calculating all this stuff in his head as well.
01:00:16.000And so that kind of shit, I mean, look, here's you, world championship caliber fighter, fighting another world championship caliber fighter, both guys in their prime, and you're fighting in front of 50 people.
01:00:32.000I mean, what's going on is this exchange, the interactions.
01:00:36.000And I think one of the things about having guys like Lawrence Kenshin putting out these videos, and a lot of other people that have done these tremendous breakdown videos of Muay Thai, is that People that are fans, even if they don't train themselves, even if they just watch it, they can see things now that maybe perhaps they wouldn't have seen before and then appreciate what these athletes are doing.
01:00:56.000There's a lot of people that watch football that can't fucking play football at all, but they can enjoy it.
01:01:01.000And I think that you're seeing that in this, you know, and watching the, whoa, there's the, is that where he called a knockdown?
01:01:28.000This one thing that's lost that hasn't been discussed is because Kevin doesn't talk about it, is to this day, and how long ago was this fight?
01:01:43.000What it means is that in boxing, when you have two great fighters from two different weight classes that meet at a catch weight, they make it a diamond belt fight and they put real diamonds on the belt and it's the epitome of the WBC title.
01:02:51.000You know, and really good at avoiding being taken down.
01:02:52.000Yeah, well, a lot of people don't understand how much similarities there are when it comes to the clinch and wrestling and judo.
01:02:59.000And, you know, I went and trained with the Black Belt judo team.
01:03:02.000San Jose before I had a shoeboxing fight, and they just could not believe that I could hang with their high-level black belts.
01:03:08.000And I'm like, well, it's all this kind of similar stuff.
01:03:11.000Like, yeah, your setups might be a little bit different, but all the fundamentals that go in a Muay Thai clinch are very similar to...
01:03:18.000It's just a difference of things you can and cannot do, but the base and the fundamentals of it go across the board.
01:03:24.000Yeah, you see that a lot with sweeps and trips, and you see some really interesting trips and sweeps in Muay Thai that are very, very technical about manipulating guys, setting them up in one direction, then changing direction on them and throwing them to the ground.
01:03:40.000Well, a lot of the stuff in the Muay Thai clinch is very similar to Greco wrestling.
01:03:46.000You know, all upper body throws and stuff because we can't shoot in, but everything we can do is above the waist and those kind of manipulations and off-balancing.
01:03:54.000And that's why, like, if I just do Greco wrestling, I do pretty well, you know.
01:04:00.000And people are often surprised by how well my wrestling or jujitsu is if I'm just messing around doing it because there's so many similarities.
01:04:57.000Obviously, knockdowns are critical, but if you dump a guy a bunch of times, meaning you sweep him and trip him and slam him on his back, how much of a factor is that in a fight?
01:05:08.000If they're scoring these correctly, because again, showing your balance, your dominance, and your control is one of the most important things.
01:05:16.000So being able to throw someone on the ground and you're still just standing there is a huge scoring thing.
01:05:25.000Because what if you just get double underhooks and just crush them towards you and just bend them over?
01:05:30.000You know, there's so many factors, man, that go into it.
01:05:35.000And again, if you have a judge or a ref that basically has a very elementary understanding of this sport, they can't give you an accurate judge of this or an accurate reffing of this because they're not so...
01:06:11.000You hit a guy with a beautiful sweep and dump him on his back.
01:06:13.000It's like if you sweep somebody and seamlessly do it and make it look like nothing as opposed to sweeping them and falling on top of them and you both lose their bounce, of course, yeah.
01:08:46.000It makes it very difficult for a judge to say...
01:08:49.000Well, this punch should get this amount of credit or this much credit as opposed to just that pitter-pat stuff.
01:08:55.000So, you know, it's a very difficult thing to do and to do correctly and accurately because there's so many variables and so many things you're seeing or not seeing depending on where you're sitting, how you're viewing it, if you're in there, if you're out there, if you're on the left side of the ring, the right side of the ring.
01:09:23.000But if any fight is relatively close, I don't see how you can complain really about the decision because no matter what, sometimes you're going to be on one side of it and sometimes you're going to be on the other side of it where maybe you didn't win and they gave it to you.
01:09:35.000One of the things I love about talking to fighters, and especially about putting on a podcast, is I think it gives people the impression of fighters, like a similar impression to what I have.
01:09:46.000I think a lot of people have the wrong impression.
01:09:50.000They have this impression that fighters are all, hey, I'm a bad motherfucker.
01:09:53.000I'm out there to fuck the world and kick ass.
01:09:55.000But really, the very best fighters are almost all very intelligent and very complex people.
01:10:02.000What you do when you fight, when you compete, is like a representative of your focus.
01:10:10.000It's like all the stuff that you had to do to get to that moment, especially after you've done it a few times and you're aware of all the demands and you've risen to the occasion on more than one time and you realize all the variables that are involved in it.
01:10:25.000It's cool talking to you guys and going over that stuff.
01:10:30.000I think there's a lot of people that are listening right now like, these fucking guys are sharp.
01:10:34.000There's a lot going on to this that I didn't think.
01:10:36.000It's a thing that you don't see the whole thing sometimes.
01:11:54.000Yeah, I mean, depending upon—there's a lot of variables that are involved in that.
01:11:58.000But what fighting is to me, the way I always like to describe it, is high-level problem-solving with dire physical consequences.
01:12:05.000And so when you watch someone who's absolutely sensational at it, you know, like when you watch an Anderson Silva in his prime, you see some guy who's just figured out a way through this puzzle in this really extraordinary way.
01:12:17.000And there's a beauty to that that I think the people that really love and appreciate fighting can understand it and can feel it and see it.
01:12:28.000And I always want to try to find a way to express that to other people.
01:12:55.000You know what it feels like to get hit.
01:12:57.000You know what it feels like to have overcome these obstacles in training and preparing yourself for a fight.
01:13:02.000It's not just this surface thing like two guys in the ring and they're fighting and it's over and it's done.
01:13:07.000When you saw there was some recent event that, what was it, NBC or whoever was putting it into, they spent like hundreds of millions of dollars on boxing.
01:13:26.000I'm like, goddamn, they put so much effort into this.
01:13:28.000If they just put together a fucking stacked Muay Thai card, just a stacked one, and just let people know, and put it on primetime TV, just like they do with Fox, with the UFC, I feel like you can't miss.
01:14:09.000As we said earlier, there's so many variables that go into it, and it's just a matter of all those right pieces coming together at the right time.
01:14:17.000Just like when the UFC really started blowing up with the Stephen Bonner and Forrest Griffin fight, how long it had been around, how many amazing fights had been going on, and it was just that, the right time, the right people, the right thing.
01:15:37.000And I had all these questions in my head.
01:15:39.000And what I realized, what Kiryan helped me realize right before I won that WMC title in Peru, was I've had all these questions from day one.
01:19:35.000But they were also not learning a lot of very important lessons that they needed to learn.
01:19:40.000And so once they finally lost, it almost destroyed them.
01:19:43.000And it's very tough to get so far in a game and miss all these lessons you need to learn.
01:19:49.000Until you're forced to learn them, you know what I mean?
01:19:52.000So if you can find a way to learn them as well, but nothing teaches as good as losing.
01:19:58.000There's also losing, I mean, you see it in MMA, like fighters from different disciplines, maybe grapplers or something like that, that lose by KO for the first time.
01:21:45.000He's changed a lot of stuff in his game, and he's a guy that has survived some pretty devastating losses and come back even better.
01:21:53.000Yeah, and that is really the key, because eventually, if you do this long enough, those things are going to happen.
01:21:59.000And how you overcome them is really what shows you what a great fighter is.
01:22:05.000Because anybody that goes around winning and just crushing people is, yeah, that's great and all, but if you have never come back from total destruction, you're not a complete fighter, I don't feel.
01:22:15.000Yeah, Cowboy, since the Dos Anjos fight, is the best version of Cowboy ever.
01:22:20.000And before that, it was the Pettis fight.
01:22:22.000The Pettis fight, he got stopped in the Pettis fight, came back better than that.
01:22:25.000He's a guy that is like, the adversity builds him.
01:22:34.000Back when I was in Vegas, I originally started doing it because I broke my hand three times in a year, and I was always so hesitant to throw it.
01:22:44.000It's always painful and stuff, and I just mentally couldn't get over it.
01:22:51.000That was how I originally started working with a mental coach with...
01:22:55.000Sort of hypnosis, but more just getting to that right mind frame, like going into the ring.
01:23:00.000And then I started going from there as very specific things I wanted to work on.
01:23:06.000Because it's all about having that right mentality when you get in there or when you're getting into training, as opposed to just going through the motions.
01:23:14.000And you can get very, especially when you've been doing this for so long, you can get very comfortable and too comfortable.
01:23:19.000And that's one of the problems I've had, especially being so calm as I am.
01:23:23.000It's very easy for me to just be like, ah, this is whatever.
01:24:03.000Like, you're getting ready for this date, you need to give it all you have at this very specific moment, instead of just casually getting through the training.
01:24:10.000You know, you're doing everything you're supposed to do, but if you're not mentally doing that as well, when you get into the ring, you're gonna fight in that kind of laid-back, casual way, as opposed to this being this very, you know, dangerous thing you're doing.
01:24:23.000So you're training, you're specifically gearing up to an event.
01:24:27.000Yeah, like just dialing everything in, you know what I mean?
01:24:32.000Some people have more of that automatic thing.
01:24:35.000They're like, when I'm in the gym, I'm very focused, very determined.
01:24:37.000I'm doing this for this specific goal.
01:24:41.000But after you've been doing this for so long, it just becomes like, I'll just get through it and do it.
01:24:52.000You know, I've always pushed myself almost too much, but mentally there's been times when I've had those bad fights is when I've allowed myself to slip.
01:25:01.000Whether that's because, you know, the person I was fighting didn't give me enough threat in my mind or there was things going on outside the gym with family and pets dying and things like that that kind of broke certain things to me down where I was still doing the work,
01:25:29.000Like, there's a buddy of mine who used to work with fighters and it would seem like every time his fighter was getting to get ready to compete, his girlfriend would have some fucking major drama and she'd be waking him up in the middle of the night and screaming at him and she just wanted to fight, like, as he was gearing up to a fight because he was pulling away from her and We're good to
01:27:43.000Like, maybe you need to just ease back a little bit and you need to, like, fix that thing, whatever.
01:27:47.000And there's so many things that could be, you know what I mean?
01:27:49.000Whether it's you overthinking the fight or whether there's something going on with someone outside the gym or you just got a bad vibe or...
01:27:56.000And it's knowing when sometimes you've got to take a little step back and maybe not push yourself so hard.
01:28:00.000Be like, hey man, just ease back a little bit.
01:28:02.000It's all about finding that winning combination.
01:28:07.000And obviously your mindset, what you need to think about, is probably going to be different than Gaston's mindset.
01:28:52.000Well, when you've experienced life at 10, like you guys are living, you know, you're living this extremely dangerous, difficult, incredibly complex life.
01:29:03.000I mean, the task of being a professional combat sports athlete...
01:29:07.000Is one of the most difficult jobs that is available to a person.
01:29:30.000And you really have to pay attention to it because the longer you let things slide and don't realize, like, hey, you're letting this slip over here, the harder it is to make those adjustments.
01:29:43.000Like, every day, you're on both sides of too much or too little of one thing or another, whether it's training, whether it's your mental approach, whether it's your diet, whether it's how much or how little you're running.
01:32:37.000He might go the whole fight and not even touch me.
01:32:39.000I can't be so concerned about this one thing that I'm not going to allow this to break me.
01:32:46.000At what point do you allow things to break you?
01:32:50.000And I'm like, there's nothing that's going to break me.
01:32:51.000There's nothing that's going to stop me.
01:32:52.000If I can physically get in there, I'm going to do it.
01:32:55.000There's a fine line that people make when they're training and they're putting together a schedule.
01:33:03.000There's a big debate, especially in MMA, over how much strength and conditioning you should do versus how much fight-specific skill training you should do.
01:33:12.000Where do you guys fit in on that and how do you make the distinction?
01:33:16.000I feel like there should be a balance between both.
01:34:01.000Monday is not as long of a day for me.
01:34:06.000I have a long training session in the afternoon, but then Tuesday I run, then we do strength and conditioning, then I come back in the afternoon, I hit pads, then we all spar together.
01:34:15.000So that's kind of like a longer day for me.
01:34:18.000So you have a couple days where it's just a big, brutal, crazy day.
01:34:22.000So that's like four workouts you're doing.
01:35:19.000But later on, maybe we're doing a little more technical stuff.
01:35:22.000So we definitely switch it up at the gym.
01:35:26.000And how do you man I mean that that balance which is it what's interesting about it is like how do you know?
01:35:32.000The right way to go about it like don't fade or towards the end of his career I mean he's obviously back now, but towards the end of his MMA career.
01:35:38.000He abandoned all strength conditioning and he's just doing fight training It's what works for the individual.
01:37:22.000Very much so by doing it myself and figuring it out myself.
01:37:26.000I never had people telling me what to do or what I should eat, what I shouldn't eat.
01:37:31.000Everything I've done and learned, most of what I've done and learned has been by application.
01:37:35.000I find it's hilarious and fun to watch when you see Thai guys training with American people and the American people don't speak Thai and the Thai guy doesn't speak English and they're trying to teach him a technique and they're just kind of like...
01:37:51.000It's this weird thing where you're looking at each other and they're trying to figure out what the other guy's saying.
01:37:56.000Well, it's interesting because I didn't really start thinking of how complex what I was doing was until I started teaching people.
01:38:03.000Because I'd been doing this for almost 10 years before I actually started trying to train people.
01:38:08.000And I remember the first time I taught somebody or maybe it was a seminar or something, I'm like, whoa, just kick.
01:38:17.000I'm like, geez, there's like 15 steps involved in just the kick.
01:38:20.000Well, that's funny you said that because we worked out today and you're very complex.
01:38:25.000I mean, we were talking just about the switch kick and I think you went on this 10 minute rant of just all the different variables that are involved in it.
01:38:38.000Again, I learned it by doing it, but it wasn't until teaching it that I had to figure out what all those steps were, which has helped me in what I do and helped me improve a lot of the techniques I have, is realizing all the complexity of every technique,
01:39:09.000By watching and studying, that's really how I learned.
01:39:14.000Well, what's interesting and maybe unfortunate is that you could train with a lot of people and they would never point out some of the stuff that you guys pointed out today.
01:39:22.000It's finding someone who's technically proficient and understands how to relay that information.
01:39:29.000It's one of the harder parts of being a martial artist, unless you're a self-starter and you just do a lot of...
01:39:35.000Well, now today, obviously, when you were there, you couldn't do YouTube, but now...
01:39:41.000But you might find some shitty ones, too.
01:39:42.000I've found some shitty ones on all sorts of things where they don't know what the fuck they're talking about on all sorts of different martial arts techniques.
01:40:46.000And that's something I've gone out of my way to do.
01:40:50.000It was much more natural for me to do, but throughout the years, I've realized that.
01:40:56.000And how do I tell someone how to do this?
01:40:58.000I've had to figure out what those things are, and how do I tell someone how to do this?
01:41:02.000Because I can just do it just by doing it.
01:41:04.000I can watch somebody do something, and I'm like, I want to do it.
01:41:07.000But how do I explain this to somebody?
01:41:08.000And I've had to dissect my own self and realize all these things and all these aspects of the technique and it allows me to translate that to somebody else as well as fine-tune it in myself.
01:41:21.000Now when you guys watch MMA and you see someone like Stephen Thompson that has a few elements of Muay Thai he uses, but he uses a lot of sport karate.
01:43:55.000It's when people have a false sense of where they're at in the sport and what they can do.
01:44:02.000You literally know nothing, but you have this mentality that you're decent at stand-up, you're decent at Muay Thai, and you're terrible, compared to someone that really does know what they're doing.
01:44:25.000And just let you mess yourself up because you don't really know what you're doing.
01:44:30.000It's crazy to think that someone could reach a world championship level in something that involves Muay Thai.
01:44:36.000But there's so many variables that go into it.
01:44:38.000There's wrestling, there's jiu-jitsu, there's all these things.
01:44:40.000You can get away with a lot more, like the striking in MMA, you can get away with because of those variables, because of the smaller gloves, because of the takedowns.
01:44:49.000You put that person in the ring with even a moderately good Muay Thai person, a moderately good boxer, they're going to get murdered.
01:45:09.000Well, that's one of the appeals of MMA, is that the guy who wins is most likely the best fighter.
01:45:16.000Because if it was just Muay Thai, or if it was just wrestling, or if it was just jiu-jitsu, you would see someone who's the best at that.
01:45:23.000But when you throw everything in, like, it's the kitchen sink, get in there, and...
01:45:28.000That's when, you know, you get to see, like, who's been...
01:45:31.000I mean, it's an even more complex puzzle.
01:45:33.000Yeah, well, that's why, like, I've never really understood the argument of, like, pitting this person against that person, or, like, who's got the best Muay Thai and MMA? Well, nobody, because they're not doing Muay Thai.
01:45:57.000Well, it's interesting that Wonderboy Thompson is going to fight Tyron Woodley, who's the UFC welterweight champion and who's this super powerful wrestler, but he's also training with Duke Rufus, who's obviously very talented, knows a lot about Muay Thai, great coach.
01:46:12.000When you see a guy like that, the reason why I keep bringing up Wonderboy's style is because it's so unique.
01:46:18.000We brought up Raymond Daniels in Glory, who's one of the only guys that has that similar background.
01:46:23.000And then Michael Page, of course, in MMA who fights for Bellator, has a very similar style, too.
01:46:31.000What's the pros and cons that you see as a guy?
01:46:33.000I think what we were speaking of earlier, if you've never applied that in a fight, a real fight, not point sparring, not that kind of thing, there's certain techniques and things that are completely worthless.
01:46:50.000And unfortunately, in a lot of those sports, you don't get exposed by that until it's way too late.
01:46:57.000So you're trying these techniques that...
01:46:59.000A decent person is just going to walk right through because they look good and they're flashy and they're great on the pads and all that, but when you have to damage someone...
01:47:12.000And it's using those techniques but applying them in a more fight-centric way.
01:47:19.000And it's a completely different thing.
01:47:21.000But when you see, what I was trying to get at is that such a weird style where he stands sideways and he leaps in and out and he moves back and forth from the waist like a snake.
01:47:29.000I mean, he's got a lot of, there's a lot of weirdness to the way he moves and it's very difficult to find anybody that has that level skill with sport karate, kickboxing, but also has a really good wrestling base too.
01:47:44.000Yeah, and I think that's one of the biggest things and why he's able to apply those things because he can deal with the wrestling and everything else that goes in.
01:47:52.000So that's why you'll see him throw those techniques because he's not as worried about it as someone who might be just as good as him with those things and has zero ground or wrestling where they're not going to throw because they're going to get taken down and crushed.
01:48:03.000Yeah, it's like we were talking about your experience in a Taekwondo school, that you went there, and the first day you start doing sparring, you threw a low kick, and they're like, get out of here!
01:48:46.000I watch it when it's on, but I'm not paying attention to the fighters or tracking them throughout the years that much.
01:48:54.000I'm just so curious because you're so Muay Thai.
01:48:57.000Your style is so Muay Thai and you're obviously an expert at it.
01:49:00.000I'm always curious as to how a person like you observes an expert striker in sort of another realm.
01:49:07.000Well, I think he's an expert and he's become an expert striker in MMA. So he's applying all the techniques that he knows and have worked for him in MMA. So it's different than if he would get in the ring and do Muay Thai.
01:49:21.000How many fighters like him have done Muay Thai?
01:49:23.000Obviously, Raymond Daniels has done kickboxing.
01:49:26.000Some, you know, but it's another one of those things where being able to apply the things from your other sport into that.
01:49:34.000So, like we were talking about with Raymond Daniels and Nicky Holtzkin, like, he just walked him down and was like, bop, bop, crushing the legs.
01:49:44.000At a certain level, you lose that, where your spinning flashy techniques are going to work against those mid-level guys, but you put them in there with the best in the world, and a lot of that stuff gets exposed and is not working out so well.
01:50:01.000You think that essentially demonstrates the effectiveness of Muay Thai at the highest levels.
01:50:06.000It demonstrates the holes in some of the stances and techniques.
01:50:10.000If I'm not flinching on the things you do and don't really care so much about you hopping around and spinning around, I'm just walking down crushing you.
01:50:19.000That's where that kind of gets exposed.
01:50:23.000It's like putting a boxer into a Muay Thai fight.
01:50:26.000All I'm going to do is kick your legs and you can't punch me.
01:50:29.000But you take a boxer and teach them how to defend those kicks and stand in a little bit more of a squared up way where I can't use your weakness against you as much.
01:50:39.000You're going to have much better success.
01:50:40.000Even if you never throw a kick, now you just can take those kicks better and just kill me with your high level hands.
01:50:47.000You said that you had taken some boxing matches?
01:50:53.000Yeah, I mean, they were all on like a week's notice.
01:50:56.000One of them was like the day I got there, like, well, this was when I was saying I was having all those fights fall through, and I went to this fight, it was supposed to be a Muay Thai fight, and I told the promoter way ahead of time, like, look, I've had all these fights fall through, I'm not coming out there unless you have a fight for me.
01:51:12.000I'm like, not only do you need to have a fight for me, I need you to have a backup guy for me as well.
01:51:15.000He's like, don't worry, don't worry, we got it, we got it.
01:51:17.000I'm like, I'll call them before I went out there and be like, so the guy's still gonna fight me, right?
01:51:35.000And I was like, look, if you don't get me a fighter, you need to drag your ass in the ring and we're gonna fight because I killed myself and you promised me we had a fight.
01:51:42.000He's like, oh, man, I'm gonna get you something.
01:56:12.000I have a lot more energy and my weight is even lower than it was when I was just trying to do all fruits and meats.
01:56:20.000Yeah, there's a certain amount of carbohydrates that a lot of people that are involved in, like, very strenuous shit, like whether it's triathletes or somewhere along those lines.
01:56:29.000Like, there's a lot of people that try, maybe they go with a ketogenic diet.
01:56:34.000I tried that a little bit and I just had no energy.
01:57:02.000I know some guys have made the transition successfully and then they compete and they do a lot of things, burning off fats.
01:57:10.000But I'm always curious about extreme people, like people that are doing ultramarathons, people that are doing things that are extreme energy requirements, you know?
01:57:21.000Yeah, well, I was living with Karin at the time, and he was like, after like a little bit, he's like, dude, what the fuck are you doing, man?
01:57:50.000But the people that are successful with it, apparently there's a curve where you go through that keto flu stage for a few weeks and then you get better.
01:58:01.000But I've talked to people that never get better.
01:58:03.000I know some friends, jujitsu friends, that went through the whole process and didn't train hard for three or four weeks and got themselves to a state of ketosis but just did not feel right.
01:58:14.000I mean, I know it works for power lifters and stuff like that, and people like that, but me as a fighter, personally experienced it for a little bit, I just would not do it again.
01:58:23.000Well, your description shows me that you didn't really get through it.
01:58:50.000I mean, it works for me and it works for some people, but obviously my lifestyle doesn't have the same energy requirements that your lifestyle does when you're training for fights.
01:58:57.000I mean, like all things, you've got to find what works out best for you.
01:59:00.000That's why I'll make the adjustments I feel like I need if I feel like I need some more carbs, some more grains on a certain day or going into a certain workout.
02:00:57.000I mean, like, I have days, you know, towards the end of camp that I'm like, dude, like, I cannot, like, even with my diet and everything, like, you're so sore, you've busted your ass for so long, you know, you're like, I just can't.
02:01:08.000And I've taken that AlphaBrain stuff, and, like, that stuff puts you on, for sure.
02:01:13.000It's a great thing to take before workouts.
02:02:23.000I was supposed to be in that car, the fight fell through, and then I watch him, and then I'm talking to Kieran on the side, and he's like...
02:04:04.000But people like that, I'd say I'd seek that out and look for stories of inspiration, not just fighters, but in any art or aspect of life in general.
02:04:18.000As I said earlier, if you go and look at anyone's story who's ever made it, you can take inspiration for them.
02:04:24.000Seeing the struggles they went through, it's unbelievable.
02:04:29.000When we don't know these things, we think of ourselves as the only ones that have to overcome stuff or are dealing with things that That might have slowed us down, but you're like, well, that guy had way worse than I ever did.
02:04:40.000And that's why I've always tried to be very vocal about the things I've struggled with and overcome.
02:04:45.000And like the first highlight video I ever had done for me, it was very important for me to show myself getting knocked out and dropped and all these things.
02:04:52.000I'm like, everyone just shows these highlights of their life.
02:04:55.000It gives you a very skewed perception of what it is we have to deal with and go through, especially to reach a certain level.
02:05:03.000We go through a lot and people don't know it because you just see the end result of all this hard work and you see the glamour and the lights and the highlights and stuff, but you don't know what people have come with and dealt with, things that would crush most people.
02:05:16.000I think what's really important about inspirational videos and books and biographies and things along those lines is it gives you an insight into someone's perspective that you...
02:05:31.000You find parallels to your own life and it normalizes some things that might just seem incredibly confusing because maybe to you it's the first time you've had to overcome something that's so difficult.
02:05:42.000But then you find out that other people have done it as well and it kind of You can take a lot of comfort in people that have gone before you.
02:05:55.000Just sitting down and talking to somebody, hearing their story, it can be very inspirational and really help you overcome anything you might be facing.
02:06:06.000And again, that's why I've always tried to be very vocal about my story and share some of my fight experiences or training experience or life experiences because Most people, they don't ever hear that side of fame, if you want to call it that.
02:06:53.000Well, it's something that's been very important to me because, like, as I was coming up, you know, before YouTube and everything, like, I didn't really have anyone to look at and be like, well, he did it, I can do it too.
02:07:03.000So it was very, it still is very important to me.
02:07:07.000One of the most important things to me to show people that they can do it, you know, and to show people...
02:07:14.000How late I started and where I was and the things I've overcome because when you've seen that someone's done it before you or similar and overcome these things, it makes it that much easier for the next person.
02:07:26.000There's a really amazing book called The Rise of Superman and I don't know if you've ever read it.
02:08:05.000And now eight-year-old kids can pull this off because that thing that's viewed as impossible becomes the norm.
02:08:12.000And as soon as that happens, you can get to the next level and the next level and the next level.
02:08:15.000And the only way to do that is for someone to break through whatever that impossible thing is.
02:08:20.000And if these things aren't put out there and people don't know about them, you're still always viewing that barrier as this is as high as we can go.
02:08:30.000In that sense, do you think of yourself or view yourself as a part of this process?
02:08:41.000I've always known where, speaking about Muay Thai, where the sport could go.
02:08:47.000You know, coming up, I never thought I'd still be actively doing it while it got out there and got the exposure it's been getting recently.
02:08:56.000But I always knew I would be a person that helped it go along.
02:08:59.000And that was a huge thing that kept me from ever venturing full-time into MMA or into boxing.
02:09:05.000Because I was like, there's only a handful of us doing this.
02:09:07.000Me and Joe Schilling and Tiffany and Kai and a lot of other people.
02:09:11.000I was like, if there's only a handful of us doing this at this level and going out there and taking these almost impossible fights, and I leave, who's there to do this?
02:09:51.000I was like, oh my god, I'm sparring with Kevin Ross, and then slowly it would get better, and now we've become great training partners, and he's been a huge part of my career, obviously.
02:10:09.000Guys that are coming up that are in the same place that you were a few years ago and you get to see it now, that it is this sort of long, crazy chain of events and this process that really essentially you only get a couple decades out of it if you're lucky,