In this episode, I sit down with my good friend Joe and talk about how he became a member of the Church of Scientology. We talk about growing up in the cult, how he got into it, and how he was indoctrinated into it as a child. We also talk about what it was like growing up with a cult family and how it shaped him into the man he is today. I hope you enjoy this episode and that it gives you a little insight into what it's like to grow up in a cult and become a member. If you're interested in becoming a member, you can do so by clicking the link below. Thanks for listening and share this with a friend or family member who might be a member or friend of the cult. Thank you so much for being a part of this community and supporting this podcast. Love & Light, EJ & Joe XOXO, Elyssa and EJ Music by Ian Dorsch Artwork by Jeff Kaale Logo by Courtney DeKorte This episode was produced and edited by Dee McDonnell and produced by Riley Bray All rights reserved. Please do not use this material for commercial use. All credit given to artists, websites, etc. We do not own the rights to any music used in this episode. We are not responsible for any other music used without permission. This material was produced, unless otherwise stated or paid for in any way. This work was produced or sponsored by our clients. . We are working with any other person s credit, credit given by our patrons. We have no claim to any other than our patrons permission. This work is not in any credit or credit given, other than those of our own use in any other source. , the credit is credit given . Thanks to or any other third party compensation. in any such credit given. - Thank you for any credit given or other person's credit, except where credit given by any other credit given in this podcast or service provided by our parent or service , etc., etc. -- Thank you, etc., any other compensation or other compensation is not claimed or other such compensation. etc. etc.. - I am not required to use this work, other such credit is owed to any third party or such other compensation, etc.. Thank you. etc. Thank you to anyone else who has expressed their support or support is being compensated.
00:00:26.000I found out about, you know, the whole Scientology thing.
00:00:29.000I knew you were into it back then, but it was one of those things where I'd heard about it, and then I met you, and I'm like, oh, she's pretty fucking normal.
00:01:08.000But then as you, like you said, as you get more and more, and by the way, You don't really get close to Scientologists when you're a Scientologist.
00:01:17.000When you're a non-Scientologist, correct.
00:01:19.000Like everything that I did and they do is for the purpose of setting a good example, being a good person, being a good friend, so to get you in.
00:01:49.000Like it would actually be considered like a transgression.
00:01:52.000If I told you, Joe, you know, oh yeah, I'm fighting with my mother, I'm fighting with my husband, or I would never tell you those types of things because it would be bad PR for the church.
00:02:04.000Wow, so that's something that you're taught.
00:03:17.000And by the way, Joe, we went from like, don't talk until you're spoken to, to, hey, we see you as spiritual beings, we want you to talk to us, we want you to communicate, like you're just, you're not children, you're spirits in a little body.
00:03:35.000And so immediately that kind of indoctrination begins.
00:03:39.000And so, you know, as children, you have kids, you know, they always want to be grown up.
00:03:43.000So that really starts to work this kind of idea that you're an elitist, that your ego becomes kind of stroked as a kid, like you're very powerful, and you returned, and you came back, and you found yourself back.
00:03:58.000You picked your mother because you knew she'd get into Scientology, and you're very strongly, and you're very strong, Nicole, to my sister.
00:04:36.000Because, you know, again, I'm going from a dad who tells me to, you know, shut the F up and talk when I talk to you and you sit in that chair and you don't have any thoughts worth listening to, to you're very much an important being.
00:04:55.000And so, yes, you start to feel very important.
00:04:58.000You start to feel that you're powerful.
00:05:02.000These are not bad things to make kids feel, but this is the way cults work.
00:05:07.000And you don't realize that, Joe, until you're out.
00:05:10.000You don't realize any of this was really going on because I've heard people call it a cult throughout my 30-plus years, and I was offended by it.
00:07:04.000Like, let's say if my schedule was, you know, 12 to 2.30 to go in, then I'd have to go in 1 to 6 or 1 to 10 or 9 to 10. So there's an everydayness of this indoctrination.
00:07:15.000It's not only that, it's policies, right?
00:07:18.000You're studying the policies all day and all night.
00:07:22.000You're looking up words you don't understand.
00:08:03.000It is to feel like you're saying to be tribal, to be part of something.
00:08:08.000Imagine being part of something that you think and are told and are reading every day is the most important thing that's going to save mankind.
00:08:17.000You are doing the work that no other group is doing.
00:08:29.000And now all this stuff that you're doing, you're going in for two and a half hours every day, are you trying to move your way up the ranking system?
00:08:43.000Well, there's like the little courses, they're called self-improvement courses, and these are the things that people like me would say, like when people would ask me about the money.
00:09:09.000Because really, the next—the follow-up to that is—but when you're really a Scientologist, it's going to cost you half a million easy or— Whatever it's going to be, but it's preset prices.
00:09:20.000So you start on these self-improvement courses and then you get onto this actual chart called the bridge.
00:09:31.000You're all working at the bottom all the way up to the top, which was OT8. That's like the most enlightened.
00:09:39.000How many people are OT8? Not a lot anymore, because the people who were in Scientology in the 50s, 60s, and 70s who got to OT8 were like, this is some bullshit.
00:09:51.000It wasn't what I thought it was going to be, and so a lot of them left.
00:09:54.000At a time, I'm sure Scientology was big, because it almost spoke to the time that it was, you know, when people wanted free thinking, but also wanted to be morally on the right path, you know, not doing drugs like they were...
00:10:10.000You know, maybe not part of that, but they kind of didn't want to be held by a certain religion, but they did still want spirituality in their life, and I think it spoke to the people of the time.
00:10:24.000So I don't think you're going to find new Scientologists, you know.
00:11:07.000The policy says that once you are declared, labeled a suppressive person, my association with you would then make me a suppressive person and then me an enemy.
00:11:27.000But now, with the internet, with social media, it's harder and harder to tell people whatever you want to tell them about the person because the information is there.
00:14:10.000So yes, there are benefits to it, but I didn't realize, because I was a kid, that the things you're talking about that were beneficial were in the real world.
00:14:19.000I thought they were invented by L. Ron Hubbard, as most people do believe that.
00:14:24.000So you're saying, were these things beneficial?
00:14:27.000I would have learned these things at Sunday school.
00:14:29.000I would have learned these things by being a good human being, being around other people.
00:14:34.000But regardless, if I was brainwashed into believing that I was doing great things and learning great things, then that does work.
00:15:29.000It was, for example, when I went to Tom Cruise's wedding and I saw the leader's wife wasn't there and, you know, David Miscavige, who's the head of the Church of Scientology, his wife wasn't there.
00:15:41.000And when I asked the question and I said, where is Shelley?
00:17:57.000I do exactly how it says in the recipe, and then I see how it goes after that.
00:18:02.000Scientology is about word for word, what does it say?
00:18:08.000My understanding and the policy is there is no celebrity that should be treated any differently than any parishioner.
00:18:16.000And I was seeing behavior and I was seeing things that wouldn't be okay, that are not okay for the average parishioner, but were being made to be okay for Tom.
00:18:27.000And it didn't matter to me that he was Tom.
00:18:30.000To me, I saw him as a team member in the Church of Scientology and we were working on the same thing.
00:18:37.000I actually thought I was a better example of Scientology than he was, and I wrote reports on him, like internal reports on him, which I didn't realize were kind of getting me to be a target for the church, because I didn't realize his position in the church.
00:19:46.000I think different adjectives, different words have different meaning depending on what person they come from and how that person, what the intent behind it.
00:21:07.000Now, if you were a real Scientologist, you would know that you probably shouldn't be drinking and carrying on because there's a 24-hour rule.
00:21:15.000You can't drink 24 hours before you're going to be doing a service.
00:21:19.000Remember, you're required to go in every day.
00:21:46.000So you'd go in and you'd say, okay, so I went out last night, I ordered, you know, a bunch of shots, and I made a comment about L. Ron Hubbard or whatever.
00:23:39.000They pulled me in and they said, you know, could it be that you're just not as high on a scale, like, in life?
00:23:46.000Like, you're so—basically, they were saying, like, you're a bitch, so you can't understand—you can't understand that kind of love.
00:23:52.000Because I was like, right, I guess because I've been married 20 years.
00:23:54.000I don't understand jumping on a couch.
00:23:57.000But I thought it wasn't a good example because I cared so much about my church and the work that we were doing, and I didn't want the church to be seen as a joke or one of its senior members,
00:24:12.000which he's considered a senior Scientologist.
00:24:15.000So you just thought it was inappropriate, it was out of line, so you felt like you had an obligation.
00:24:29.000But at the time, I thought I was pretty pristine.
00:24:32.000But looking at it now, you feel like it's totally innocuous.
00:24:35.000He's just on a couch, jumping around, having a good time.
00:24:37.000Yes, but if you knew how serious Scientology was about clearing the planet, it did not go with our intentions and our goals.
00:24:45.000So anyway, I was writing him up, and I was writing everybody up, and I was writing everybody up at the wedding, because I thought our senior executives were, and I was like wiring them back from Italy from my hotel room.
00:24:55.000Calling one of my closest friends who's a Scientologist.
00:24:57.000And I'm like, and then I need you to write this.
00:25:13.000If you believe that the C organization and the people at the higher, you know, that are senior executive strata of your church are living a pristine and perfect life that you're trying to aspire to, that you're spending your day and night and money and time,
00:25:32.000like, this is what we're trying to be, and I'm seeing not great examples of what this is now.
00:26:39.000I'm in a room, you know, with cameras, with my person who is armed with information, unbeknownst to me, of a stack of reports that were written on me by everybody who worked for Tom.
00:29:23.000And Meryl Streep was, of course, pristine, but they were looking at times where he didn't stick up for himself or where he pussied out or something, right?
00:29:34.000And so they were judging him pretty harshly, right?
00:29:37.000They were like, you need to come back in the morning, and it was like an old day of like, we're reviewing 120 days of your life, right?
00:29:44.000Meryl Streep, they looked at like five days, and They were like, don't worry, just come back when you can.
00:31:43.000I mean, there is an actual explanation for it in the real world.
00:31:46.000I'm not smart enough to retell it to you.
00:31:49.000But if I was to have a meter here and you had a thought, I could show you.
00:31:54.000It does register that you thought something.
00:31:56.000Right, but you can't really differentiate what those thoughts are.
00:31:59.000No, but as someone who trains in Scientology, all you're trained to do, which what I was doing, I was training to administer Scientology to people, was learning to do that.
00:32:10.000And I would learn to say, Joe, what was that thought?
00:34:01.000And then your whole goal as Scientologists is to act for the greater good of mankind and sort of bring as many people into this as you can because you're going to help them.
00:37:39.000All these people take care of his every need.
00:37:41.000Yes, and there's policy on how to talk to somebody.
00:37:46.000Like, you wouldn't say, like if you said, go get me a coffee and I want at this temperature, there's no, I can't get it, we're five miles from any, you know, we're 30 miles, there would be none of that kind of talk.
00:38:00.000Like, not any kind, there's policy about...
00:38:31.000But when you believe, as a Scientologist, you are working for somebody who single-handedly is saving the planet, and you deserve that kind of punishment, That's something different, babe.
00:39:54.000I would ruin it, Joe, because he would do some stupid shit with his hands or something that he never rehearsed that would make me cry from laughter.
00:40:17.000But you're supposed to look the other way.
00:40:18.000So if somebody said something wrong to John Travolta and he pulled out a samurai sword and cut their head off, you just got to clean up the body.
00:42:43.000Well, no, I don't remember a pinch test, but I do remember holding on to these things and he would ask me some questions, but the guy was very uninterested or disinterested.
00:42:52.000He just seemed like he was kind of like being forced to do it.
00:45:48.000They're not going to be disrespectful to their lead actor.
00:45:51.000They're not going to go up to Tom and go, hey, Tom, we don't know about our affiliation with you and what you're doing in the Scientology thing.
00:46:05.000The way Tom Cruise is, I don't know him obviously, but what I get out of him is he's a super focused, very turned on, intense guy, and it probably benefits him having all these servants take care of all his every needs so he could focus directly on his thing and just go for it.
00:46:22.000So for him, it's probably 100% beneficial to be involved.
00:46:42.000I mean, again, I want to make the distinction between, you know, listen, when you gain some success in this business, thank God, you're able to surround yourself with an assistant and people to help you to make your life easier so you can focus on your work.
00:46:57.000But this is something totally different, because behind closed doors, you are acting and being a different way, and you know it.
00:47:06.000I know it, he knows it, and anybody in Scientology knows it.
00:52:24.000But when you get pulled in for something like this, which is what they did in the end, they tried to get me to disconnect from my stepfather, then they tried to get my stepfather to disconnect from my mother, and so they did this whole thing.
00:52:36.000Your stepfather who brought you in the first place?
00:53:02.000So you go to Florida, you spend three fucking months getting grilled every day, putting the pressure on you, and that's been a proven tactic of interrogations that it's always questioned by people.
00:53:17.000People that really look at the ethical implications of interrogation.
00:53:22.000The problem is when you put so much intention on someone about a certain thing, it makes them so uncomfortable that it changes their perception of things to the point where they're willing to admit a lot of things that may or may not be true just to get the interrogation over.
00:54:09.000I want you to tell me in writing, and then you should also refund all my money that I spent having to do this.
00:54:16.000Then they showed me a policy that there are no refunds, and if I ask for a refund, then I'm going to get declared a suppressive person and labeled an enemy.
00:54:25.000So the money that you spent going to Florida and spending three months down there, that's what you wanted to refund?
00:54:30.000Not the millions that you gave them over the years?
00:54:32.000No, no, because listen, in their defense, I don't think it's right to get your money back on something that you feel you've received, right?
00:55:01.000So your only person that you can talk to in the church is the person who deals with refunds, but they can't talk to you because you're declared an enemy to the church.
00:55:12.000Millions and millions of dollars of people's money that they can't get back because no lawyer is going to take on the Church of Scientology for free.
00:55:20.000But you're talking the average guy who has $50,000, $100,000 on account he or she is never going to see again.
00:55:59.000And I said, it's going to get bad for you guys because now I started going on the internet and I started seeing stories of senior executives getting beaten in the church, like Debbie Cook and Mike Rinder and Tom DeVock.
00:56:50.000And that's where these incidents were allegedly taking place.
00:56:56.000So I started Googling it, and I started going into the church and saying, I'm Googling this information, and I want to know why these people are saying the same thing.
00:57:05.000Their stories are over and over again.
00:57:07.000And then I'm seeing stories of families being declared suppressive people, their OTAs.
00:57:13.000You know, they're high up in the church, and their families are being forced.
00:57:16.000And then you're presented with This is a lie.
00:57:21.000Look, Mike Rinder admitted that he beat people.
00:58:07.000So what would happen if you said that my mother was?
00:58:10.000Then I just got to believe you, that my mother is an evil person, and all these horrible things you're saying about my mother, I'm supposed to believe you?
00:58:18.000And the answer was, don't believe me, believe Elroy.
00:58:51.000But I did get a huge award for donating another million to the church.
00:58:56.000And it's so crazy to me that everybody who leaves is somebody who has an axe to grind, apostate, a bigot, because I've been called a bigot, because they go to the one place they can go to, which is don't Don't disrespect my religious beliefs.
00:59:54.000Listen, Joe, if you told me tomorrow, and I'm really just getting to know you today, I mean, I've known you, but we don't know each other, right?
01:00:32.000If you call me tomorrow and said, I'm having a problem with my neighbor because he said I'm encroaching on his property and my kid's swing set is encro...
01:00:44.000I would find every resource I could to help you.
01:01:37.000I filed a missing persons report with the LAPD, and then I found some pictures of the guy who was in charge of my case speaking at a Scientology event on human trafficking.
01:01:49.000Lieutenant Dawson at the LAPD. The police officer?
01:06:12.000I'm not talking about average Scientologists.
01:06:14.000And explain to me the Sea Org, because was that established when L. Ron Hubbard was evading taxes?
01:06:20.000Yes, and he was on a ship, yes, and he created the ship.
01:06:23.000Called the free winds and whatever ship that that's not called the free winds and it is called the free winds now, but that's where they deliver the highest level of of Scientology there OTA so when you get to OTA you gotta dig out of the free winds, but before that I don't know the name of his boats, but I think it was called the Apollo That was a part of Going Clear that was hilarious when...
01:07:14.000Because you have to be wealthy to get to this.
01:07:16.000Not only do you have to be wealthy, but a lot of times what they do, the new scam is you get to a level and then they go, oh, we messed that up.
01:07:22.000You have to go back down at your expense.
01:10:55.000Understand that this is what you want for your kids.
01:10:59.000They're getting up the bridge, and they're getting the answers to life, so when they come back next lifetime, they're not going to forget everything.
01:11:06.000They're not going to be as fucked up as they were when they were.
01:13:11.000Not only is my mother top of the food chain when it comes to the counseling side, my mother was top of the food chain when it came to administering Scientology, which is very rare.
01:13:20.000She was what's considered a high-trained auditor.
01:14:26.000So now you've got to go get your material.
01:14:28.000So after you've been checked out on this and they get that you get what it is, then you go back to the window and they give you your actual, what you're supposed to do with this information.
01:14:39.000So it'll say, like, it'll be a piece of paper and it'll say, ask...
01:15:02.000And by the way, when I was a Scientologist and I heard that this was a story, I didn't know, so I would go to the internet and go, OT3 story, but I didn't know if it was true, so I couldn't verify it.
01:15:44.000So if you were about to go to OT3 and then you went online and you investigated what is OT3 and then you read a bunch of stuff about these little beings in your body and then asked your mom, your mom would have to lie to you.
01:17:10.000It's like, I'm confused now, but if I contemplate this and I really think it over, eventually I'm going to receive enough information where this is all going to be like, oh.
01:18:30.000There's a line that you cross, right, where like, this is my life, this is Scientology, this is what I believe, and then you cross this line, oh my god, this is bullshit.
01:20:10.000And that's what I hear a lot from Scientologists is ex-Scientologists not just hearing their pain of losing their families and everything they've ever known, but not having purpose.
01:21:33.000But that's the thing is finding those things for Scientologists.
01:21:36.000It's like a lot of my friends like who didn't really know what I was going through the church go, you know, you're very kind of childish at times, you know, because I never went to dinner in my 30s and 40s and had wine.
01:22:12.000That's the one thing that I have found, and not in a weird way, not in a, I'm in another cult way, not in, just I have faith for the first time.
01:22:25.000I believe in a higher power, and I believe that faith, having faith, It's a big thing.
01:22:32.000These people that I was friends with, that I'm still friends with, this conversation got a little weird that night, but it got way weirder years later.
01:22:43.000Well, because then they became untethered.
01:22:46.000And the conversation I had with the wife was very strange because she was like, I grew up indoctrinated in this fundamentalist religion.
01:22:55.000And she goes, and now that I'm not in it, she goes, I don't know what to believe.
01:22:59.000And I realized that my mindset is kind of fucked up because I'm indoctrinated, like my brain developed as a young age, believing nonsense and never questioning it.
01:23:09.000She goes, so I feel very vulnerable, very susceptible.
01:23:12.000She goes, I feel like if the right cult came along, they could scoop me up.
01:23:15.000And she was laughing about it, but she wasn't laughing about it.
01:23:18.000Well, here's the thing, I'm the opposite now.
01:23:19.000That's why I don't want you to tell me nothing.
01:25:27.000No, you learn basically a purification rundown is just you're supposed to sweat out all of the toxins lodged in your fatty tissue.
01:25:36.000Now, the problem with that is you're taking large amounts of niacin and they claim you're running out like suntan from when you were a kid and from other lifetimes.
01:27:12.000If your religion or your belief system is so easily destroyed that someone can have a disparaging opinion about it and that threatens you to the point where you want to attack that person, you're doing something wrong.
01:27:40.000We're allowed to have different opinions.
01:27:42.000This is one of the beautiful things about life.
01:27:44.000People like different kinds of music, different styles of art.
01:27:47.000They like different kinds of houses and different landscapes.
01:27:50.000It's one of the things that makes people interesting.
01:27:53.000So the problem with any kind of ideology, the problem with what this represents or any other kind of cult or any other kind of Really rigid structure is that human beings are very susceptible to those kind of routines.
01:28:29.000I mean, it's very easy for people to just slot themselves into these patterns and adopt those opinions as their own instead of trying to formulate their own.
01:28:38.000Because it's very complicated to try to formulate your own opinions.
01:28:40.000And they have to be flexible because new information comes up and then you have to kind of change them and adjust them and then recognize that perhaps, like you're recognizing right now, that like, wow, I've kind of like, I've lived a lie for like a long period of time.
01:28:54.000I mean, it doesn't discredit you as a human, and it's very brave of you to discuss that openly, because it gives people that are listening to this the same sort of understanding of these thoughts that are in their own mind, whether it's because of whatever religion,
01:29:57.000I mean, honestly, Joe, you have to really make the distinction between an organization that takes your mind hostage from the minute you walk in, and that you are required to be there two and a half hours a day,
01:30:13.000that your eternity is at stake, that the planet, every man, woman, and child on this planet Their lives are at stake with what we do in Scientology.
01:30:22.000Don't you think the people who are like super hardcore fundamentalist Christians believe that?
01:30:29.000What I'm talking about are what I witnessed as a child with my grandmother.
01:30:34.000My grandma looked down the street from her church.
01:30:37.000We would walk in on the way to get, you know, sausage and meatballs and things she needed to make her sauce.
01:30:43.000And she'd go in and light a candle for her friend Connie.
01:30:46.000Or she'd go in and light a candle because I lost my ring.
01:30:50.000Or she'd pray to this saint or that saint.
01:30:52.000And when I was scared at night, She would say, pray to this person.
01:30:59.000Pray to, you know, do your cross and God's going to protect you when you sleep.
01:31:03.000And here's your angel and, you know, here's your little cross.
01:31:06.000You know, she would give me little, you know, the saints on the necklaces and stuff.
01:31:12.000And she'd say, and I believed for that night that that saint was protecting me or that God was protecting me.
01:31:18.000And those moments, it gave me comfort.
01:31:21.000And so that's what I tell my daughter.
01:31:22.000I don't want you to believe in anything, although I did baptize her as a Catholic.
01:31:27.000I said, I want you to really find your way with some kind of spirituality, but I'm going to baptize you as a Catholic because I feel you need some kind of foundation, but I don't want you to be forced to believe in anything.
01:31:39.000But I want you to believe in something or you're going to fall for anything.
01:31:43.000And I didn't have structure as a child.
01:32:43.000And so that's, also, the, the, um, I'm trying to Look, it doesn't cost a quarter of a million dollars to get up to this level that I explained to you.
01:32:56.000And by the end of it, if you have made millions, you're going to give those millions away.
01:33:58.000But, you know, there's different styles of...
01:34:03.000Behavior patterns that exist in all sorts of religions like Buddhism is radically different than Islam You know and there's different requirements that they ask of the people and a lot of it is based on the environment that these religions were established in based on how long these things have gone on for whether or not the the people that are a part of that religion have gone through the Enlightenment like what what different factors played a part and what standards they uphold today and what make people but My issue is always
01:34:33.000with subscribing to predetermined patterns of behavior and ideologies where they indoctrinate you on specific ways to think.
01:34:43.000Yeah, that's what a lot of religions are.
01:34:45.000I mean, it's a real issue with human beings.
01:34:47.000Well, my grandmother, of course, was raised to think a certain way about people or lifestyle, but she had the choice to be friends with somebody who maybe wasn't those things.
01:35:08.000No, it's pretty obvious that, especially in particular the way you're describing Scientology, it's far more suppressive than most and far more rigid in its behavior patterns.
01:35:18.000And they force you into these behavior patterns, and it's incredibly difficult to break behavior patterns, especially when you believe firmly in your heart that this is the right way to be.
01:36:00.000Well, absolutely, the accusations about the Sea Org and about people making 15 bucks a week and about these people that are essentially working as indentured servants.
01:36:12.000So as long as you sign up for it and sign that billion dollar contract, you're not subject to any minimum wage laws or anything along those lines?
01:36:20.000And by the way, Joe, I'm not really that smart enough to speak on these things because people think that my agenda is to take away their tax-exempt status.
01:36:30.000I would love for that to happen, but that's not the reason for the show.
01:36:33.000You just want to express yourself and be honest about your experiences and help other people be free.
01:36:41.000Well, because I know it's true, because I experienced it, I'm cosigning.
01:36:46.000And I'm saying, you know, if you're going to bully somebody, bully me, bully A&E, but I'm going to let these people tell their stories because they're telling the truth.
01:37:58.000Because you're getting their message out there.
01:38:00.000And again, it's a very heartbreaking message when you see these people and they're not in contact with their children and they're not in contact with loved ones.
01:39:42.000So when you go on their website and see that they say they're the largest growing religion, they are the only ones with the solution to life, to man's ills, I'm not making this up.
01:39:54.000So when you make those kinds of claims, Then stand behind it.
01:45:07.000So you were told from the very beginning in Scientology that you have a reactive mind.
01:45:13.000And so in Dianetics, you are running out these bad experiences that you've had maybe this lifetime, maybe last lifetime, maybe lifetimes ago.
01:45:22.000So you're told that you have a reactive mind, and we're going to take it away.
01:46:46.000I'm never doing another thing because she thought it was bullshit.
01:46:48.000But she thought it was okay when you were going through your OT3 thing and they're explaining to you that you're covered with bugs that are beings.
01:50:37.000Well, that was a big part of going clear, is that it seems pretty obvious that he was going through some issues himself, and he was trying to self-diagnose himself.
01:50:45.000Well, he cured himself of blindness, he said.
01:53:02.000Honey, if you even just Google what I just said, Scientology and child molesting, you will come upon website after website of people saying, I was molested while I was in the church, and the church did nothing about it.
01:53:23.000You're going to hear it because people are becoming more and more vocal about what's happened to them.
01:53:28.000And so if I seem overly passionate about this subject, it's because I have heard these stories.
01:53:38.000Over and over again, behind the scenes.
01:53:40.000I have heard stories of people being abused, children being abused, mentally, physically, sexually, and I'm only me with a show.
01:53:49.000You know, A&E can't do anything other than just let me tell these stories.
01:53:54.000So I'm virtually, and Mike Rinder, and I'm trying to do something right by these people.
01:54:04.000And so the last thing that I want to be bothered with is bullshit from a celebrity who knows that we're telling the truth about what we have already spoken about, but to be interested enough to maybe find out what I am talking about now.
01:54:47.000However, the distinction that I'm glad you did make is when you are hearing about abuses, when you are hearing about things that are happening that are hurting people, you then do need to say, I'm aligned with this organization, and so I do need to find out.
01:55:22.000Tons of emails of people who said, I'm glad you told me, I'm glad I watched your show, I'm well informed now, I will never step into a church of Scientology.
01:55:33.000But what about people leaving because of it?
01:55:35.000Well, you're not getting Scientologists watching the show.
01:55:49.000You'd have to go in the next day and pay to have your own interrogation and punishment handed to you for watching a show like ours or going clear.
01:55:57.000After a while, you just go, I don't want the punishment.
01:56:00.000Especially if you believe that I am...
01:56:04.000If you believe that I am a liar, that I have crossed over to another side, that I'm not to be listened to, would you support somebody who is talking shit about you and your faith or your family and people you love?
01:56:17.000Would you go out of your way to listen to them?
01:57:23.000But To have your family make videos of you, to not talk to you, to refuse to see you, their own grandchildren, that's just something I can't deal with.
01:57:37.000But also now, what I'm dealing with now is hearing stories of these people who have been silenced for years, the pain that they've had to deal with and sustain through these years, the fact that they're normal in any way is a miracle.
01:57:54.000And so I hope to do something with them and I hope to to make some change.
01:57:59.000What are the positive aspects of Scientology and how do you think it benefited you and do you think it's possible to take some of those positive aspects and either reform that organization or form another organization that doesn't try to control people's thinking but maybe positive maybe tries to encourage The positive benefits of being a part of a group.
01:58:24.000I couldn't promote anything good about it because I know it's an all-in proposition.
01:59:45.000Scientologists believe that they have the answers.
01:59:48.000And when you believe that, you have shut yourself off to the fruits of observation, to experiencing other people, to opening your heart up to things.
02:01:48.000That's why in the last episode I was in tears.
02:01:51.000I was a mess because I was shocked by the goodness of people that I thought the world was so screwed because of Scientology, because I thought we were the only good people in the world.
02:02:09.000And honestly, from someone who's lived their entire life indoctrinated in that ideology, and you've only been out for four years, you're showing a remarkable amount of self-insight and a remarkable amount of ability to examine the flaws of your past thinking.
02:02:33.000Yeah, because every day I'm like, that's really messed up, Leah.
02:02:35.000But to abandon the foundation that you've kind of established your entire life on, it's got to be insanely difficult to do it in your 40s after all these years of being involved in this crazy sort of organization.
02:02:50.000It'd be way easier for you to just stay in, stay inside your comfort zone, keep doing all your nonsense, get up to OT55 or whatever the fuck it is now, and just keep paying the money and keep your friends.
02:03:04.000Do you miss any of your friends that were in it?
02:03:09.000No, I only miss the children of, like my goddaughter.
02:06:57.000I would love to walk into those gates with the FBI and say, hey, you all who want to come with me, come with me now, and we're going to take care of you.
02:07:04.000And I've asked Mike Rinder that many times, and Mike's like, they won't go with you.
02:07:08.000I'll stand there and say, what are you talking about?
02:08:19.000It's like they had a policy called overboarding when the ship was where the Sea Org lived, and they would overboard somebody who was out of line.
02:10:21.000They put on a show for the kids every Christmas at Celebrity Center and they give the money, the proceeds to what they created which is called the Police Activities League.
02:10:32.000And they present the LAPD with money for children.
02:10:49.000You appear as if your intentions are pure so that you then have maybe favors like this happening where somebody files a police report and you get screwed with.
02:11:14.000Because I... Joe, if you receive the calls that I receive, like, when I'm not working on the show, because, you know, I'm the executive producer of this show, so...
02:11:25.000They're not safe to just call anybody.
02:11:28.000They're not going to call A&E. It's me and Mike.
02:11:30.000We're the ones who have to vet these stories.
02:11:35.000People trust us because they know we're telling the truth.
02:11:38.000They know that we have their best interest at heart in telling the story correctly.
02:11:45.000When you talk to these people, when I talk to them behind the scenes, it takes every piece of me not to break down.
02:11:52.000I have to be kind of How many people are in it now?
02:13:37.000My endgame is that these stories get out there, that people get incensed enough, where this church, well, I have to call you a church, this organization is held responsible for the things that they have done.
02:15:15.000What you're doing with your show, but the way you're admitting your own personal demons and the battles that you're having with your own mind, trying to sort of reformulate your view of the world and figure out who you are.