The Joe Rogan Experience - JRE MMA Show #64 with Khalil Rountree Jr.

00:00:04.000 What's up, man?

00:00:05.000 How are you?

00:00:05.000 Good, man.

00:00:06.000 Thanks for doing this.

00:00:07.000 Thank you for having me on.

00:00:08.000 I was so impressed with your performance from that past UFC that I had to talk to you.

00:00:16.000 I've seen guys make, like, you were always a very dangerous striker, obviously from the Gokan Saki fight.

00:00:21.000 Everybody got to see that.

00:00:23.000 But to see how fluid you were against a beast like Eric Anders.

00:00:28.000 I mean, Eric Anders is a scary cat.

00:00:29.000 He's coming for blood, right?

00:00:32.000 You were so fast, man.

00:00:33.000 It was crazy to watch.

00:00:34.000 It was really interesting.

00:00:36.000 Thank you.

00:00:37.000 If you had to give yourself a percentage leap that you've gone up over the last year, what do you think it would be?

00:00:44.000 Compared to like...

00:00:44.000 Who you were before that.

00:00:49.000 Not that high of a leap.

00:00:50.000 I mean, like, that performance for me was, like, I feel good about it, but that was only four months.

00:00:57.000 So I'm like, I know that there's so much more for me to gain.

00:01:00.000 That's why I'm like, yeah, I gotta go back.

00:01:02.000 So the leap, not too much because I know there's still a lot more to go.

00:01:06.000 A lot more, yeah.

00:01:08.000 Wow.

00:01:08.000 So you've decided, so for people who don't understand what we're talking about, you went to Thailand, you spent four months down in Thailand, and we were fighting like a Thai boxer.

00:01:18.000 It was crazy.

00:01:18.000 Like, Mark Delegrate, who works in the production truck, he's the guy who picks out the instant replays.

00:01:24.000 He and I talk back and forth sometimes while the fight's going on.

00:01:26.000 And Mark, you know, with his heavy Boston accent, like, dude, classic Thai!

00:01:31.000 He's classic Thai stance!

00:01:33.000 And he would just sit right on that front leg, dude, wham!

00:01:36.000 Dude, that inside leg kick was so ferocious.

00:01:39.000 It was fun to watch, man.

00:01:40.000 So, it's just...

00:01:42.000 Usually, wherever I go, I've always been good at just, like, kind of absorbing the culture.

00:01:49.000 I'm a guy, like, I can go into a room full of people, and I can just kind of pick up what the energy's like, and that's another reason why I wanted to go to Thailand.

00:01:59.000 So, just the way that they train and the discipline, the power, but the relaxation, like everything I was learning, just like, man, there's so much more to Muay Thai.

00:02:10.000 So, I would just, even the days that I didn't train, I'd just sit around and just watch these guys because Muay Thai is more than just punching, kicking elbows.

00:02:18.000 Man, there's balance.

00:02:19.000 You know what I mean?

00:02:20.000 There's repetition.

00:02:22.000 Like, how many kicks are you throwing?

00:02:24.000 You know, the guys at the stadiums, they're like, they're kick, kick, kick, kick.

00:02:27.000 Yeah.

00:02:28.000 So, I was able to learn a lot, man, and there's still a lot to go.

00:02:32.000 It's beautiful to see someone on that pursuit, and I think it's much like Roger Mayweather said about boxing.

00:02:39.000 Like, most people don't know shit about boxing.

00:02:41.000 And when he said that, it's like, if anybody is going to say that, he's going to say that.

00:02:45.000 Because there are levels and layers, and there's paths to go down.

00:02:50.000 It's interesting when you see someone...

00:02:52.000 Like, committed with a very specific style, like your adoption of that Muay Thai style.

00:03:00.000 It's so effective as a striking style.

00:03:03.000 It's really interesting when you think of all the different ways to attack with striking, that that one way became very particularly successful.

00:03:11.000 You know, before I even started training MMA as a whole, my first martial arts class was a Muay Thai class.

00:03:22.000 I knew that I wanted to train Muay Thai or learn Muay Thai.

00:03:27.000 And so since I've started, I always thought, like, yeah, I want to go there.

00:03:31.000 You know, just maybe it's cool.

00:03:32.000 But...

00:03:34.000 Muay Thai has always been my thing, but I never really learned it like the actual way, you know, like from the root of where it comes from.

00:03:43.000 I was just kind of like passed down or like Brazilian style Muay Thai, you know, like shoot the box type stuff.

00:03:49.000 So that's completely different from stadium Muay Thai.

00:03:52.000 And most people don't know shit about stadium Muay Thai, like unless you go to Bangkok.

00:03:58.000 Let's characterize it for people.

00:04:00.000 Would you say that that Curitiba style is just way more aggressive, different way they utilize techniques, not light on the front leg?

00:04:10.000 Sometimes Shogun would be light on his front leg a little bit.

00:04:14.000 One thing that they were doing a lot that's pretty similar is they go at it.

00:04:18.000 Shoot the box, they'll go at it, and you just go until the other guy stops pretty much.

00:04:24.000 But from the shoot-the-box, that was very combo-based, like punches and kicks.

00:04:29.000 You have to memorize these crazy combos.

00:04:32.000 Cordero is...

00:04:33.000 I think he's one of the guys that just passed it down a lot.

00:04:36.000 There's Diego Lima, guys like that.

00:04:38.000 But they have this system, and it's very combination-based.

00:04:43.000 Memory, slipping, punch, kick, all this stuff.

00:04:46.000 But the ties are just like...

00:04:48.000 It's just...

00:04:50.000 Straight kick, you know, like punch, you fall down on that front foot, elbow, knee, it's just, it's broken down completely differently.

00:04:59.000 It's just a whole different style.

00:05:01.000 Yeah, it is.

00:05:01.000 Like, so the shoot-the-box stuff has punches, kicks, knees, elbows, combinations, same tools that you're going to use in Muay Thai, but Muay Thai's got a whole different game plan.

00:05:11.000 You know, clinching, like...

00:05:13.000 I've never trained as much clinching in America as I have in Thailand in just four months and I've been fighting or training now for like nine years.

00:05:21.000 So just in four months, I've gotten more clinch time in Thailand than I have, you know, in my whole career.

00:05:27.000 And that's because it's a whole different game.

00:05:30.000 You got to master the clinch in Muay Thai.

00:05:32.000 You have to for effective, like real, true Muay Thai.

00:05:36.000 Are you getting a lot of wrestling over there?

00:05:38.000 Yeah, so that's one thing, too.

00:05:40.000 I heard Shab talking about it.

00:05:43.000 Tiger has amazing, like, it's an amazing gym.

00:05:48.000 40 to 60 guys on the mat from everywhere.

00:05:50.000 Chechnya.

00:05:51.000 Wow.

00:05:52.000 You know, everywhere and everywhere, man.

00:05:54.000 Those guys, they come there maybe for a week, maybe two weeks, maybe for a month.

00:06:00.000 But you're getting constant good training, grappling, everything.

00:06:04.000 MMA, boxing.

00:06:07.000 CrossFit.

00:06:07.000 Everything you need is in one place.

00:06:09.000 It blew my mind being there, honestly.

00:06:11.000 That's fascinating.

00:06:14.000 The coaches that you were working with before, are you still working with them and Thailand?

00:06:20.000 I know you talked about actually moving to Thailand.

00:06:23.000 Yeah, yeah.

00:06:23.000 The plan is to move there as soon as possible.

00:06:26.000 Really?

00:06:26.000 Yeah, so I was hitting you up like, Joe, I want to get on your show.

00:06:29.000 I want to talk a little bit.

00:06:30.000 But yeah, the plan is to move to Thailand within the next couple weeks for at least a year.

00:06:36.000 And I want to go there just because I can just train.

00:06:41.000 The lifestyle is completely different.

00:06:43.000 I can walk to the gym, hop on a motorbike.

00:06:45.000 It's just so simple.

00:06:47.000 But to answer the question about my coaches, I always have my brother in my corner.

00:06:52.000 He's just kind of like moral support.

00:06:53.000 We started this together.

00:06:55.000 I had a conditioning coach slash friend slash mentor.

00:06:59.000 Mental type of support, Lorenzo Pavlica.

00:07:04.000 And then my head coaches have switched probably two or three times in the last couple fights.

00:07:09.000 I had Kenny Johnson from Black House, John Wood from Syndicate, and now I have George Hickman from Tiger Muay Thai.

00:07:17.000 And so, this change that you decided to make, did it come after the Johnny Walker fight?

00:07:23.000 Yeah.

00:07:24.000 So, the Johnny Walker fight, like, that camp was tough, man.

00:07:28.000 Like, I was doing so much to try to improve in my wrestling and grappling because...

00:07:35.000 That was always like a big hole in my game.

00:07:38.000 So I spent so much time wrestling over at Black House with Kevin Casey and this guy that I fought, Blake Troop.

00:07:44.000 They're huge.

00:07:45.000 And these guys are great grapplers.

00:07:47.000 Kevin Casey's a powerhouse.

00:07:48.000 Yeah.

00:07:48.000 He'll put you into the ground and he feels like cement block on top of yourself.

00:07:52.000 It's old school Hicks in jujitsu.

00:07:53.000 Exactly.

00:07:54.000 That pressure, man.

00:07:55.000 So I was just grinding myself into the mat every day for that camp expecting like, okay, I'm comfortable on the feet.

00:08:03.000 If it goes to the ground, I'm ready.

00:08:05.000 And I think I just completely lost sight of my striking, my Muay Thai in that fight.

00:08:10.000 His size, everything, I just kind of froze up, man.

00:08:13.000 I was just like, ugh.

00:08:14.000 I didn't know what to do, how to get there.

00:08:17.000 It's all part of the education, right?

00:08:18.000 I mean, this career of fighting that you're on this path is what it's all about.

00:08:24.000 Yeah.

00:08:24.000 And fighting for me is like big self-awareness, too, you know?

00:08:27.000 I think it's always important, though, when a guy has a setback to see how he responds.

00:08:32.000 Some people get discouraged.

00:08:33.000 Some people get encouraged.

00:08:34.000 Some people just decide, like, they're going to be much more committed, and that's what you did.

00:08:38.000 You just, I mean, making that move to do your camp in Thailand and seeing how it paid off.

00:08:42.000 I mean, Eric Anders is a very tough customer, and you essentially shut him out.

00:08:47.000 Yeah.

00:08:47.000 I mean, it was very, very impressive, man.

00:08:49.000 That was the plan, though, because I knew he was tough.

00:08:52.000 He's tough.

00:08:53.000 I've trained with him before.

00:08:53.000 I've sparred with him before that, everything.

00:08:56.000 I've watched all of his fights.

00:08:58.000 The guy's hard to put away.

00:08:59.000 We were making a case for the fight being stopped.

00:09:01.000 Yeah.

00:09:02.000 We were making a case.

00:09:02.000 I mean, DC was saying, like, we can stop this fight.

00:09:05.000 I was saying it.

00:09:06.000 I was like, you were fucking his legs up.

00:09:09.000 I didn't even think about it during the fight.

00:09:11.000 I wasn't I'm sure you weren't.

00:09:12.000 But that guy is so damn tough.

00:09:14.000 He kept coming, man.

00:09:15.000 I mean, he never stopped trying to win that fight.

00:09:18.000 Yeah, there's no quit in him.

00:09:19.000 None.

00:09:20.000 Zero.

00:09:20.000 I mean, even in the Santos fight, remember?

00:09:22.000 Yeah.

00:09:22.000 Do or die.

00:09:24.000 Do or die.

00:09:25.000 And then he tweets, he's like, I haven't been that tired since my wedding night or something like that.

00:09:28.000 He's always got good tweets after the fight.

00:09:31.000 Shout out to Eric Anders.

00:09:32.000 I love what John Anik said, too.

00:09:34.000 He loves when he fights because then Bruce Buffer has to say, your boy.

00:09:37.000 Yeah.

00:09:39.000 Your boy!

00:09:41.000 Eric, your boy!

00:09:46.000 Hey, where does he keep his suits, man?

00:09:48.000 He's got a new suit.

00:09:49.000 Oh, he's a bad motherfucker, dude.

00:09:51.000 The insides of him always have different decorations and shit.

00:09:54.000 They commemorate different places where we're at.

00:09:57.000 Bruce Buffer, he's got style.

00:09:59.000 I just imagine him having a level on his house, just...

00:10:02.000 Oh yeah, I'm sure.

00:10:03.000 Like a malt, you know what I mean?

00:10:04.000 Like you go to Nordstrom or something, but his is just all the suits that he's worn before.

00:10:08.000 I mean, unless he donates them, he might donate them to charity.

00:10:12.000 That might be one of the, or auction them for charity or something like that.

00:10:16.000 That'd be good.

00:10:16.000 Yeah, he's a fun dude.

00:10:18.000 He's the best ring announcer of all time too, man.

00:10:21.000 When that guy starts wailing, he gets so pumped up.

00:10:24.000 Seriously.

00:10:24.000 His fucking head gets red.

00:10:26.000 He's like, He's so intense, man.

00:10:29.000 If you watch boxing, they're much more smooth.

00:10:33.000 Bruce Buffer gets into it, man.

00:10:36.000 He digs in.

00:10:37.000 I remember seeing him first yell at TJ Dillashaw, and he was like, oh, shit.

00:10:43.000 He gives you goosebumps.

00:10:44.000 He really does.

00:10:45.000 He gives you goosebumps.

00:10:46.000 Yeah, you just feel his energy, right?

00:10:48.000 You're just like, I'm there ready for a fight.

00:10:50.000 I'm kind of nervous, and then Bruce comes over.

00:10:52.000 Yeah.

00:10:53.000 Out of the blue corner.

00:10:54.000 You're like, oof.

00:10:54.000 We're talking about a dude who blew his ACL out from jumping up in the air while he was reading someone's name.

00:11:00.000 Oh, my God.

00:11:01.000 That's how intense he gets.

00:11:02.000 He blew his knee.

00:11:04.000 He just fucked his knee up from just getting crazy.

00:11:07.000 Oh, man.

00:11:08.000 Oh, Joe, really quick.

00:11:10.000 What do we got?

00:11:11.000 Okay, so remember I told you to turn your airdrop on during the show.

00:11:16.000 So I didn't want to come here empty-handedly.

00:11:20.000 So I haven't slept in probably 24 hours, more than 24 hours.

00:11:27.000 But last night...

00:11:29.000 I was drawing, and I know you like art, so I was like, let me draw these illustrations for you.

00:11:34.000 So I just want to send them to you.

00:11:36.000 Okay.

00:11:37.000 So turn your airdrop on.

00:11:38.000 It's on.

00:11:39.000 And as soon as it comes through, I'll send them.

00:11:41.000 But yeah, I really...

00:11:44.000 Just like, man, I just want to...

00:11:46.000 If you want to keep them, use them for like wallpapers or post them up, whatever you want.

00:11:50.000 You made this?

00:11:51.000 Yeah, I did all these, man.

00:11:52.000 Dude, I look ridiculous.

00:11:54.000 Yeah, I did the little like...

00:11:58.000 I'll put it on Instagram later.

00:12:00.000 Cool, man.

00:12:00.000 It's very cute.

00:12:02.000 What it looks like, man.

00:12:03.000 I'm getting ugly.

00:12:04.000 As I get older, I see pictures of me when I was younger.

00:12:06.000 No, I saw this picture of you in the gym and you had this crazy face.

00:12:09.000 I'll actually show you the actual one.

00:12:12.000 Oh, I know what you're talking about.

00:12:13.000 I was going crazy during this stupid fitness challenge I was having with my friends.

00:12:18.000 We were working out, doing six hours of cardio a day, trying to beat each other.

00:12:23.000 So stupid.

00:12:24.000 That's when I was taking that picture.

00:12:25.000 That was a good one.

00:12:25.000 I was like, yeah, let me copy that one.

00:12:28.000 So when you decide to move, are you taking anybody with you?

00:12:33.000 You go solo?

00:12:35.000 I'm going to start off going solo.

00:12:37.000 I would like to get my brother to come visit.

00:12:41.000 I'd like to get my mom to come out.

00:12:43.000 Really, it's awesome out there.

00:12:44.000 Yeah, yeah.

00:12:45.000 And just cheap and just kind of simple living.

00:12:47.000 And my mom, I don't think she's ever left the country.

00:12:51.000 So I think it'd be really cool for her to go out there.

00:12:53.000 But at the moment, I'm just really like, this place is great for my career right now and great for my training.

00:12:59.000 So I just want to get there ASAP and get back to work.

00:13:02.000 Sorry, how do you account for jet lag?

00:13:06.000 Like, do you?

00:13:06.000 Do you just...

00:13:09.000 Do you give yourself enough time to adjust to the time difference?

00:13:12.000 You know what?

00:13:13.000 The whole time I was there, my sleep schedule was off.

00:13:16.000 I never adjusted.

00:13:17.000 So I was going to bed maybe 2.30 a.m.

00:13:21.000 every morning.

00:13:21.000 And then get up, run at 5, and then get tired later.

00:13:26.000 Get tired later.

00:13:27.000 It's weird, right?

00:13:27.000 The schedule was all off.

00:13:29.000 And then when I came back, it took me a week or two to adjust.

00:13:32.000 Yeah.

00:13:33.000 I was disappointed how stupid my body was.

00:13:36.000 Like, hey dummy, go to bed now.

00:13:38.000 I'm telling you, just go to bed now.

00:13:40.000 Like, I didn't know my body had such a rigid schedule.

00:13:43.000 When you jack that thing sideways and you're on the other side of the planet, your body just really doesn't know what the fuck is going on.

00:13:49.000 Seriously, and then for me being stuck in that plane for so long, it was like, ugh.

00:13:54.000 Yeah, you're too big for them little seats, too.

00:13:55.000 So when you do that, say if you have a fight in Vegas, and you're going to go from Thailand to Vegas, do you show up two weeks early?

00:14:02.000 Yeah, well, this is my first time flying back to the States after being in Thailand, and I flew a week early.

00:14:08.000 No, I flew two weeks early.

00:14:10.000 One week I stayed in Vegas, and then fight week stayed in Atlanta.

00:14:12.000 And I think that was perfect timing.

00:14:14.000 Oh, that's good.

00:14:14.000 So you've got a little difference in time between those two.

00:14:17.000 And weather, too, man.

00:14:18.000 It's so hot.

00:14:19.000 We train outside, and it's humid and hot.

00:14:22.000 So between every round, it feels like the third round of a fight.

00:14:28.000 If we're going into the championship rounds, I've never been there, but I'd imagine that it'd feel very shitty.

00:14:34.000 And that's how it feels every round in Thailand.

00:14:36.000 It's just like you're covered in sweat, hot, thick.

00:14:40.000 Yeah, that was probably like my fifth round or something like that.

00:14:44.000 Dude, I was dead by this point.

00:14:48.000 Shout out to the editor for making me not look as tired as I was.

00:14:53.000 Yeah, so what we're looking at, folks, for the people who are just listening, is a bunch of videos of you training, strength and conditioning, pummeling up against the wall.

00:15:03.000 So you're getting everything down there.

00:15:04.000 Yeah, and that's Joseph Henley right there.

00:15:06.000 He was on the Ultimate Fighter.

00:15:09.000 I forgot what season.

00:15:10.000 They called him Leonidas.

00:15:11.000 Yeah.

00:15:11.000 He's a black belt out there, and he helped me out a lot, man.

00:15:14.000 You run into so many different people, and he's like, yeah, black belt, any type of grappling you want, any positions you want to work, we'll go over it, we'll create a system, whatever.

00:15:22.000 So he was a really big help in this preparation for this fight.

00:15:26.000 A bunch of free spirits live in there, right?

00:15:28.000 So many.

00:15:29.000 But everybody's down there with a goal.

00:15:31.000 They want to get in shape, they want to get healthier, spiritual path, whatever it may be.

00:15:36.000 There's something romantic about the expat living in Thailand, having a good time, you know?

00:15:40.000 There's something romantic about that.

00:15:42.000 It's interesting.

00:15:43.000 Yeah, it's really cool.

00:15:44.000 Yeah, I mean, that whole culture, man.

00:15:47.000 I mean, the Thai and Muay Thai culture.

00:15:50.000 What a phenomenon.

00:15:51.000 If you look at combat sports, I mean, this one that it's so tied into these stadiums.

00:15:58.000 It's so tied into gambling and betting.

00:16:01.000 I mean, kids get indoctrinated into it at a very young age.

00:16:04.000 Super young.

00:16:05.000 Super young.

00:16:06.000 It's wild.

00:16:25.000 And then as an adult, it's like, Muay Thai, feed your family.

00:16:28.000 Muay Thai, feed your family.

00:16:30.000 These guys live at the gym, man.

00:16:31.000 Jesus.

00:16:32.000 They live at the gym.

00:16:33.000 And they go home maybe two days after a fight just to take care of their families and then come right back to the gym and get ready for the next fight.

00:16:40.000 Now, of course, at Tiger Muay Thai, you know, you guys, everybody knows various people in different organizations, UFC, Bellator.

00:16:50.000 What have you?

00:16:51.000 One FC. But what about those guys that are fighting in those little small Thai gyms and stadiums?

00:16:57.000 How much access do they have to grappling?

00:17:00.000 Are they satisfied to just do Muay Thai?

00:17:04.000 Is there at all a movement in Thailand to start doing MMA? Especially at Tiger.

00:17:09.000 A lot of those guys are coming over to the MMA and learning jiu-jitsu and wrestling.

00:17:14.000 One of the guys I was learning to clinch from, he's got probably 300 fights, 300 Muay Thai fights, and he started training MMA and taking MMA fights.

00:17:25.000 So they're definitely opening their mind to it and hopping in there, and there's access.

00:17:29.000 In Bangkok, it's a little different because that's very...

00:17:45.000 So, is there any MMA at all in Bangkok?

00:17:50.000 They got a couple places, but nothing with pro fighters or any high-level fighters.

00:17:56.000 But they do have maybe three or four MMA gyms there with just guys stopping in or guys who practice a little bit of everything.

00:18:04.000 I'm always really interested in countries that figure something out better than everybody else.

00:18:09.000 When it comes to leg kicking, nobody figured it out any better than the ties.

00:18:13.000 It's like no one argues that.

00:18:15.000 No, seriously.

00:18:16.000 And their shins, man.

00:18:18.000 I think that's done for.

00:18:20.000 They don't even feel the front of their legs anymore.

00:18:22.000 Because they can kick anything.

00:18:23.000 And they're getting kicks checked.

00:18:25.000 There's guys that, Joe, they'll fight one night at the stadium.

00:18:28.000 Go five rounds.

00:18:30.000 And then sleep and maybe the next day go fight like another small event or a smaller event sometime even in the same night and it's like man aren't you like your shins don't hurt your elbows don't hurt nothing and these guys they're just like they're bulletproof they're used to this man it's crazy wow and they're first time in my life I go into a locker room,

00:18:53.000 and the red and blue corner is both in the same room, probably as big as this studio, and they're all getting their hands wrapped together, getting massaged out together, everything.

00:19:04.000 Weird energy in the room.

00:19:05.000 In the UFC, they separate us.

00:19:07.000 We have to be separate, whatever purposes.

00:19:09.000 But in Thailand, they're just hanging out, same room, talking, whatever, and then they just go fight right after.

00:19:15.000 It's so weird.

00:19:16.000 The peace, it's so weird, man.

00:19:18.000 It was the first time I experienced that, and I was like, maybe I can...

00:19:21.000 Start lightening up a little bit.

00:19:23.000 Like, it's only a fight.

00:19:24.000 And that's kind of something I had to tell myself for this one.

00:19:27.000 I had to, like, really fall back and rely on my training.

00:19:30.000 Because I was really nervous.

00:19:31.000 I was nervous to start to try the new stuff that I learned out.

00:19:35.000 I never threw many leg kicks in any of my fights.

00:19:39.000 I never really did that stance.

00:19:41.000 Everything that I did was pretty much brand new.

00:19:44.000 And I was really nervous.

00:19:45.000 I was like, what if it doesn't work?

00:19:47.000 You know, like...

00:19:48.000 So many different so many different feelings and For this one, I the only thing I can tell myself was like rely on your training and A few other things I actually got.

00:19:59.000 Um, I got like hypnotized to before.

00:20:02.000 Yeah, dude Who did to you?

00:20:05.000 Um, my friend Dominique He has he has this like I met him through one of the one of the other UFC fighters like Julian Marquez.

00:20:15.000 I met him.

00:20:16.000 I met him through him and And he's like, oh yeah, I do like hypnotism, all this stuff.

00:20:20.000 I'm like, okay, cool.

00:20:21.000 I've done it before I did in California.

00:20:23.000 And, um, so I think three weeks, two or three weeks prior to the fight, we had a few sessions a week where it just like helped me to really get that visualization clear.

00:20:33.000 Cause we have so many thoughts all the time.

00:20:34.000 Right.

00:20:34.000 And everything just like thoughts are constantly coming in and to stay focused and to really like, like When you go into his office,

00:20:51.000 or wherever you do it, and you guys talk about it, do you set a goal before you start the session?

00:20:57.000 We do this thing called timeline therapy.

00:21:00.000 I'm just sitting there with my eyes closed, and we just do this.

00:21:05.000 We'll pick a subject, whether it's pain, fear, nervousness, something.

00:21:11.000 We'll just pick a subject, a feeling, whatever's going on.

00:21:15.000 And it's kind of just like a visual timeline of like, where did this start?

00:21:19.000 Where did it come from?

00:21:19.000 What's the event?

00:21:20.000 Whatever.

00:21:21.000 And we kind of just talk about that for a while.

00:21:23.000 And I just kind of dig to this place of where the nervousness is coming from or where the...

00:21:31.000 You know, where the fear is coming from or whatever.

00:21:33.000 I kind of just, I find a place on my timeline and I dig from it, whether it's in the future or the past, whatever.

00:21:39.000 And then we get things clear.

00:21:42.000 And then after that, he kind of helps me, guides me into this like hypnotism, which is really just like a really deep relaxation.

00:21:53.000 If I wanted to open my eyes or something like that, I feel like I could, but I wanted to relax.

00:21:58.000 I wanted this to help.

00:21:59.000 I wanted my vision to be clear, so I did my best to just surrender to the process.

00:22:04.000 I'd say it's not something where I woke up and I was like, oh yeah, my life has changed, but I can definitely remember the thoughts that I had so that I can stay more in that lane of what I wanted.

00:22:19.000 In my hypnotism, I actually visualized not winning the fight because I didn't want to strive too hard to win.

00:22:28.000 It's just something that I've been kind of studying.

00:22:30.000 It's like the outcome is not really like the winning or losing.

00:22:35.000 I don't want to base too much on that.

00:22:37.000 I just want to put on a great performance.

00:22:40.000 So, I visualized after one thing, like, just having my hands in the air, seeing my brother smile, my coach's smile, and then slapping hands with the crowd on the way out.

00:22:51.000 And then I was also like, and I want to see my win bonus and my show money.

00:22:56.000 And these are the things that I wanted to see.

00:22:58.000 These are the outcomes that I wanted.

00:22:59.000 Not so much just, I want to win the fight, but the things that I, like, how I wanted it to happen.

00:23:03.000 Yeah.

00:23:05.000 Having that vision clear, it helped me.

00:23:08.000 And so like everything that I visualized before that, it happened.

00:23:12.000 I was like, cool, hands raised, slapped hands with everybody on the crowd the way out, signed both my checks.

00:23:18.000 And that was like, that was the end of it for me until the next session, until I want to get clear on something else, you know?

00:23:24.000 It was cool.

00:23:25.000 Wow.

00:23:25.000 So, had you done anything like that before?

00:23:28.000 Any mental coaching?

00:23:29.000 Yeah, before the Gokan Saki fight.

00:23:30.000 I did something very, very similar.

00:23:32.000 Yeah.

00:23:33.000 With another guy.

00:23:34.000 Was that the first time you'd ever done it?

00:23:36.000 First time doing hypnotism.

00:23:38.000 Yeah.

00:23:39.000 Definitely.

00:23:40.000 And yeah, my friend Matthias, he's here.

00:23:44.000 And he's really good too.

00:23:46.000 And he'll just like take some notes.

00:23:47.000 You kind of just have a conversation in the beginning.

00:23:49.000 And everything comes from your unconscious mind.

00:23:52.000 It's not somebody telling you something.

00:23:54.000 I just dumped out whatever my unconscious mind was telling me.

00:23:57.000 He was just helping me to like relax, be at peace, and just listen to like my unconscious mind just un...

00:24:04.000 Unfold all of these kind of like hidden answers that we all have, you know, so that's it now when you Get hypnotized and you're thinking about a specific fight Do you think about specific things you're trying to accomplish things that you think you'll do to him that you'll have an advantage at or strategy or like how do you those were thoughts that were happening and Mm-hmm.

00:24:28.000 Before my hypnotism.

00:24:30.000 But then all of those thoughts were coming from the anxiety or coming from the nervousness.

00:24:38.000 You get what I'm saying?

00:24:39.000 Yes.

00:24:40.000 So it's like, let's go back on the timeline to why you're feeling nervous.

00:24:43.000 Like all these things are happening.

00:24:46.000 You're anticipating all these things happening.

00:24:48.000 Yeah.

00:24:48.000 And it's making you feel nervous.

00:24:50.000 So let's go back to the nervousness and revisit that.

00:24:52.000 Why?

00:24:53.000 You know?

00:24:54.000 And then my subconscious mind is just like spewing things out.

00:24:58.000 And then after the process of that mixed with the hypnotism, I'm not even thinking about, oh, I'm going to hit this arm drag or whatever.

00:25:09.000 I'm thinking about having my conscious clear and my mind clear and everything so that I can get...

00:25:16.000 The expectation that like, or the visualization that I created.

00:25:21.000 Yeah.

00:25:22.000 So, have you tried different versions of that or different styles of hypnosis?

00:25:30.000 No, not that I can.

00:25:31.000 I mean, I've done a lot of just like closed eye Like emotional intelligence type of like exercises you know like where I'm just like my eyes are closed and I have someone helping me visualize internally you know like just whether it's dreams or emotional pain or whatever it may be yeah I've had people just like guided meditation almost yeah but the actual name like hypnotism I've only had it done by two people.

00:26:00.000 Well, when you're watching fighters, I think fighters are one of the most complex puzzles for psychologists.

00:26:10.000 Because I think it's a super rare state.

00:26:13.000 Like the rare state that someone gets to where they can be completely calm and see everything in the heat of a dangerous encounter with another trained fighter.

00:26:22.000 And when you're watching these things play out on TV and you oftentimes see...

00:26:27.000 How much anxiety plays a factor or doesn't play a factor how much someone having the I don't give a fuck attitude for real it can play it can be a benefit and it can fuck you up sometimes too and to see these complex psychological puzzles play out and see fighters struggle and then regroup have a bad fight and come back better all that stuff is like it's it's really like a giant microscope on the human character And a guy like you who comes

00:26:57.000 back from that Johnny Walker fight and looks sensational against Eric Anders, man.

00:27:02.000 That was one of those things where you're like, I like what I'm seeing.

00:27:05.000 This guy, he figured some shit out, man.

00:27:08.000 That was incredible.

00:27:10.000 It was really fun to watch, man.

00:27:12.000 As a guy who really loves Muay Thai, it was fun to watch.

00:27:15.000 Thanks, man.

00:27:16.000 And that's kind of the goal, too, going forward, is that I want to continue to put on stuff like that, continue to learn Muay Thai.

00:27:22.000 Because that fight kind of raised the bar, right?

00:27:24.000 People were like, oh, man, this guy kind of put me back on the map.

00:27:28.000 So now I'm ready to just go back and, you know.

00:27:30.000 How many guys use mental coaches now, if you had a guess?

00:27:35.000 A good handful.

00:27:36.000 A good handful.

00:27:37.000 Yeah, a good handful.

00:27:38.000 I know Vinny Shorman.

00:27:40.000 He hypnotized me, and he hypnotizes a lot of fighters.

00:27:43.000 Yeah?

00:27:44.000 Yeah, it was a trip.

00:27:45.000 It was very strange.

00:27:46.000 I was like, oh, this is real.

00:27:49.000 It's a weird feeling, right?

00:27:50.000 How long ago was it?

00:27:51.000 It was the old studio, so it had to be at least a year and a half, maybe two years ago.

00:27:56.000 It was pretty weird, but he's a great mental coach, too, though.

00:28:00.000 He knows what's creeping around your subconscious, just waiting to pop up and play tricks on you.

00:28:07.000 Are you sure you put in enough rounds?

00:28:09.000 Where does he live?

00:28:09.000 He's a UK guy.

00:28:11.000 I've got to get linked up with him.

00:28:12.000 I don't care, anybody.

00:28:14.000 I'm like, yeah, whatever you got.

00:28:16.000 Yeah.

00:28:16.000 Manny Shorman, let's go.

00:28:18.000 Yeah, he's a good dude.

00:28:18.000 I'll connect you guys.

00:28:19.000 I think it's probably one of the least trained aspects of fighting is the mental aspect of it.

00:28:28.000 You know, you realize how good guys are just by watching them train.

00:28:32.000 You see them spar, you see them do all these things, you go, damn, this guy's fucking good.

00:28:37.000 This guy's got great jujitsu.

00:28:38.000 This guy's got great kickboxing.

00:28:39.000 You ever hear about the people that, like...

00:28:42.000 They're sayings, right?

00:28:43.000 Like, man, that guy's amazing in the gym, but when he shows up to fight, he just doesn't put on.

00:28:48.000 I've been that guy multiple times, and yeah, a lot of it has to do with mentally.

00:28:52.000 Yeah, that's almost like an unaddressed giant chunk of the puzzle.

00:28:56.000 Like a third...

00:28:57.000 Of the puzzle.

00:28:58.000 Like if it was a pie.

00:28:59.000 A third is, keep it together.

00:29:01.000 You know, when it's ready to go, and now!

00:29:06.000 And it's all happening, don't freak out.

00:29:09.000 And you never, like, here's kind of something I think about.

00:29:11.000 You never know everybody's situation, right?

00:29:14.000 The day before the fight, we have weigh-ins.

00:29:16.000 And then Dana comes back and he gives us our speech, right?

00:29:18.000 So everyone there, you don't know what life position they're in.

00:29:23.000 So it's like, hey, there's a potential we can get a bonus.

00:29:26.000 So all those guys are affected emotionally somehow.

00:29:29.000 You know what I mean?

00:29:30.000 Some guys maybe they don't care.

00:29:31.000 Some guys maybe they do.

00:29:32.000 But then we walk out and then there's a crowd of 15,000 people sold out.

00:29:37.000 Look around.

00:29:38.000 We got Joe Rogan sitting here.

00:29:40.000 We got Mick Maynard sitting here.

00:29:41.000 We got Dana White.

00:29:42.000 We got everybody sitting around.

00:29:44.000 And then, like, we're still human, too, so we're thinking, like, this is kind of like a test, you know?

00:29:48.000 It's like, we got the whole board right here in front of me ready to take my test, you know?

00:29:54.000 Yeah, wow.

00:29:55.000 It really depends on, like, there's so much that goes into it, like, mentally.

00:30:00.000 You got to be prepared for a lot of things, or some guys block it out, but it's just like anything else.

00:30:05.000 You had to know about halfway into the first round, some special shit was happening, though.

00:30:11.000 On this fight?

00:30:11.000 Yes.

00:30:13.000 After the first round, I was very happy.

00:30:17.000 I sat down.

00:30:18.000 My coaches were like, okay, this is good.

00:30:21.000 This is good.

00:30:22.000 You're doing this.

00:30:22.000 I was like, listen, I don't want to know what's good.

00:30:24.000 What should I expect the next round?

00:30:25.000 I was ready to go.

00:30:27.000 I told this straight to George.

00:30:28.000 I'm like, dude, I don't care.

00:30:29.000 What do I need to do next?

00:30:30.000 What should I prepare for?

00:30:32.000 And he's like, prepare for a little bit more pressure.

00:30:34.000 He's probably going to try to shoot for the takedown in this round.

00:30:36.000 I was like, okay, cool.

00:30:37.000 So that, I was just looking for that and using my tools to kind of, to just prepare for that.

00:30:42.000 But definitely midway through the second round, I was like, okay.

00:30:46.000 Like, I know he's still got a lot of power, all this stuff, but I think that that leg, I should be able to You know, buy some time and take away a little bit of damage, like, coming at me.

00:30:58.000 I mean, he had to be in agony.

00:31:00.000 And he never stopped coming.

00:31:02.000 Yeah.

00:31:02.000 Like, he didn't wince at all.

00:31:04.000 Like, even on the cage when I was just, like, when he was on the back and I was trying to kick his leg, his facial expression never changed.

00:31:10.000 He's a fucking savage, man.

00:31:12.000 It's crazy.

00:31:13.000 He's a bad man.

00:31:14.000 Respect that guy.

00:31:15.000 Yeah, for sure.

00:31:16.000 For sure.

00:31:17.000 Even before, like...

00:31:19.000 Even before the fight.

00:31:20.000 Before and after.

00:31:21.000 Yeah, for sure.

00:31:22.000 Maybe even more so, man.

00:31:24.000 Not everybody can do that.

00:31:25.000 Not everybody can take that.

00:31:27.000 And to do it the way he did it, with 100% of his character intact, never shirked, never shied away from it, kept moving forward, that's a dangerous person.

00:31:36.000 And he's still getting better.

00:31:37.000 Oh, yeah.

00:31:37.000 That guy's just getting better.

00:31:39.000 Oh, yeah.

00:31:39.000 How much do you think the hypnosis helped you?

00:31:45.000 A really good amount, man.

00:31:46.000 How much different did you feel?

00:31:47.000 In what way?

00:31:50.000 I just, I felt more clear.

00:31:52.000 I feel like a lot of times I can be just kind of like an anxious guy.

00:31:57.000 I just, I feel like I feel a lot of just energy, like kind of like, I don't know.

00:32:01.000 I go into a room and I'm just like, ah.

00:32:03.000 So having the focus on, having my intention set on what I wanted to happen was 70%.

00:32:17.000 I'd owe 70% of the hypnotism, all that stuff, to just help me to keep my thoughts on track.

00:32:22.000 Something to fall back onto every single time.

00:32:24.000 If I felt like I was getting distracted or getting nervous or whatever, I would remember the things that we went over in the hypnotism.

00:32:32.000 And so every time, just kind of hit that reset button or just a delete button on thoughts that I just didn't want to have or thoughts that would make me feel anything other than happy and ready to go.

00:32:42.000 Now how often do you practice this?

00:32:44.000 Do you practice this outside of hypnosis?

00:32:46.000 Is there like some things you concentrate on or meditate on?

00:32:49.000 Yeah, so I do my best to just, it's kind of like the weird thing about me is fighting is something that is just kind of happened by accident.

00:33:01.000 I think?

00:33:05.000 I think?

00:33:23.000 Weird kid that nobody, you know, nobody ever talked to.

00:33:26.000 Never even wanted to fight.

00:33:27.000 I've always been non-confrontational.

00:33:30.000 But somewhere in the journey of becoming a fighter, I was like, ah...

00:33:36.000 This is cool, but I need to find more peace because this is like, it's bringing up way too much, just like, just way too much of my anger, kind of like, you know, from everything that I held on to.

00:33:49.000 So, I practice meditation, a lot of meditation.

00:33:53.000 I read a lot of different, I'll study different religions, whatever, wherever I'm at, all just to find peace, man.

00:34:00.000 How does a non-confrontational guy wind up being an elite cage fighter?

00:34:05.000 Hmm.

00:34:07.000 Stop and think about what I just said.

00:34:09.000 That's a very strange thing.

00:34:12.000 I'm still trying to wrap my mind around it, but I think that internally there's just a lot of expression.

00:34:20.000 For me, it is a big expression, man.

00:34:22.000 It's an expression of just...

00:34:28.000 My danger, my ferociousness, the part of myself that I've always held back.

00:34:34.000 It's like, I have to hold back.

00:34:35.000 I'm a big guy.

00:34:37.000 If I get angry, I'm afraid I can break something.

00:34:42.000 It's crazy, so fighting for me.

00:34:46.000 When I train, after training, I'm super peaceful.

00:34:49.000 After I fight, I feel like I've grown.

00:34:51.000 I feel like this guy's trying to hurt me.

00:34:53.000 All these things.

00:34:54.000 It's just a place where we both agree, like, hey, I'll give you my strength versus your strength.

00:34:59.000 Whatever powers that strength is what we meet in the middle.

00:35:04.000 It helps me balance, man.

00:35:05.000 It does.

00:35:07.000 Because when I'm not fighting, I'm so relaxed.

00:35:09.000 It's crazy.

00:35:11.000 It makes sense.

00:35:12.000 And I think that's something that could aid a lot of men.

00:35:15.000 I think just at least training.

00:35:17.000 I think there's something particularly soothing about hitting a heavy bag.

00:35:21.000 There's something particularly like when you're done, man, you feel so good.

00:35:25.000 When you're done hitting pads, when you're done sparring, you feel so just peaceful.

00:35:30.000 You got it all out.

00:35:31.000 You don't have anything left in you.

00:35:32.000 I think a lot of men carry a lot of extra bullshit.

00:35:35.000 Yeah, man.

00:35:35.000 A lot of extra...

00:35:37.000 Extra.

00:35:37.000 For no reason.

00:35:38.000 You gotta let it out.

00:35:39.000 You gotta let it out.

00:35:41.000 Some guys will build it up in the gym, right?

00:35:44.000 And they're super huge.

00:35:45.000 And it's like, you gotta let it out, man.

00:35:47.000 You can't even swing those arms.

00:35:48.000 What are you doing?

00:35:50.000 Yeah, you see less of that now than you used to, it seems like.

00:35:53.000 But...

00:35:54.000 Yeah.

00:35:55.000 It would be nice if...

00:35:56.000 I really think they should teach kids how to fight at a very early age.

00:36:00.000 That'd be cool.

00:36:00.000 I think it's the opposite.

00:36:01.000 It would have the opposite effect.

00:36:03.000 I think people would fight less.

00:36:04.000 I think if you taught kids how to fight, they would just train and spar, and they would get it all out of their system there, and they'd probably fight a lot less.

00:36:12.000 It's kind of like in our nature, right?

00:36:14.000 Yeah.

00:36:16.000 Everybody's got a curiosity, like, I wonder what it's like.

00:36:20.000 Yeah, the closest they have to it is the wrestling team.

00:36:22.000 You can join the wrestling team.

00:36:23.000 And they will teach you a very important part of fighting.

00:36:26.000 But other than that, they're not going to teach you how to fight.

00:36:29.000 But wrestling is kind of like, now at least, it's kind of a loophole.

00:36:32.000 They don't teach boxing in high school, but they'll teach you how to wrestle.

00:36:36.000 And they're pretty crazy, man.

00:36:37.000 Crazy!

00:36:38.000 And wrestling's getting rougher, it seems like.

00:36:39.000 Oh, fuck yeah, man.

00:36:40.000 Yeah.

00:36:41.000 Well, some of those high school kids are savages.

00:36:43.000 I remember being a high school kid in a high school wrestling room.

00:36:46.000 It was awful.

00:36:47.000 Those kids were trying to kill each other.

00:36:49.000 They work out the hardest too.

00:36:50.000 Running with plates over their head and all that stuff.

00:36:53.000 The football team is just lifting weights and running practice.

00:36:55.000 Those guys are just slaving.

00:36:57.000 Slaving.

00:36:58.000 Everybody's seen that movie Vision Quest, right?

00:37:00.000 No, I've never seen it.

00:37:01.000 You never saw that?

00:37:02.000 I've never seen it.

00:37:03.000 Dude, it's Matthew Modine.

00:37:05.000 And Matthew Modine plays this badass wrestler.

00:37:08.000 And he's going up against this dude who's this other badass wrestler.

00:37:11.000 And he comes to visit the guy while the guy's training.

00:37:14.000 And this dude's got a log on his back.

00:37:15.000 And he's walking up stadiums.

00:37:17.000 Upstairs.

00:37:18.000 And he says, you think you make the weight?

00:37:21.000 Because Matthew Modine's character is trying to cut weight.

00:37:23.000 He goes, I hope so.

00:37:24.000 He goes, hope so too.

00:37:26.000 And he keeps walking up the stairs.

00:37:27.000 When did this come out?

00:37:29.000 A long time ago, man.

00:37:31.000 Back when Madonna was young.

00:37:33.000 That's the wrestler.

00:37:34.000 So he's walking.

00:37:36.000 Up the stadium stairs carrying a fucking log on his back.

00:37:40.000 It's a great movie, man.

00:37:42.000 Every wrestler that I knew when I was in high school, everyone worshipped this movie.

00:37:46.000 What year did this shit come out?

00:37:50.000 It's probably like 85 or something.

00:37:52.000 That's not the cover for it, is it?

00:37:53.000 85!

00:37:53.000 Bam!

00:37:53.000 I nailed it, son!

00:37:55.000 Is that the cover for it?

00:37:56.000 Yes.

00:37:56.000 Look at that.

00:37:57.000 It doesn't even look like you have anything to do with a wrestler.

00:37:59.000 I definitely would not click that on Netflix thinking that it was a wrestler movie.

00:38:04.000 At all.

00:38:04.000 She was hot as a son, too.

00:38:07.000 Fun times.

00:38:08.000 But yeah, that was like the quintessential wrestling movie because he just was dedicated.

00:38:11.000 And then there was this friend who lied about being a Native American.

00:38:15.000 Oh, is that what that is?

00:38:16.000 I was going to say, what's that vest you've got going on?

00:38:18.000 He just wanted to be different, stand out, but it was a fun movie, man.

00:38:21.000 It's a fun movie.

00:38:22.000 I'll have to get into that for sure.

00:38:24.000 Not a whole lot of movies about wrestling.

00:38:26.000 That's the least glamorous but probably toughest sport for high school kids to get into.

00:38:30.000 Definitely.

00:38:31.000 I stayed away from it, man.

00:38:33.000 You know, I tried out for volleyball in high school.

00:38:37.000 I actually made the team, but my grades were terrible, so I never got to play.

00:38:40.000 But I was a heavyset dude, and I tried out and made it.

00:38:43.000 I think it was just kind of like a joke, though.

00:38:44.000 I think the coaches were just messing with me and my friends, too.

00:38:47.000 When did you get involved in martial arts?

00:38:49.000 When I was 20, so 2010. So, really quick.

00:38:55.000 Right after high school, I started...

00:38:58.000 i started traveling so i used to play in a band i used to play many bands and play guitar i play guitar i play drums i play keyboard a little bit of everything every christmas my mom would just know just give me a new instrument and i'd lock myself in my room and teach myself how to play and that's just always how like music was my first love instruments were my first love You taught yourself?

00:39:23.000 Yeah, I just put on like headphones and I would just match the sounds and then keep restarting the songs over and over again and then if it were like a keyboard song I'd play it like just on the CD player and you know as it evolved and for some reason I can just I can match tunes with whatever instrument it may be.

00:39:43.000 You've always been able to do that?

00:39:45.000 Since a kid.

00:39:46.000 Wow.

00:39:47.000 No formal training?

00:39:49.000 Nothing.

00:39:49.000 That's crazy.

00:39:51.000 I've tried to take guitar lessons before, but it didn't work for me.

00:39:56.000 My mom was just wasting her money.

00:39:58.000 I was learning, but it was kind of like school for me.

00:40:00.000 I had a teacher, he told me, okay, this chord and this chord, and I was like, ah, like...

00:40:04.000 Just let me feel it.

00:40:05.000 I gotta feel it.

00:40:07.000 I can hear it.

00:40:08.000 I can feel it.

00:40:09.000 I'll get it.

00:40:10.000 So I stopped going.

00:40:12.000 How many people do it like that?

00:40:14.000 I'm not sure.

00:40:15.000 I know there's a lot of people that can just kind of play by ear.

00:40:18.000 I just love instruments.

00:40:19.000 I'll pick anything up and just start playing it and end up teaching myself how to play.

00:40:23.000 Drums, bass, guitar, keyboard.

00:40:26.000 I played the stand-up bass in middle school.

00:40:30.000 I've got like a little home production like beat studio at home all that stuff so after high school I started touring and That's when, like, I started getting my heaviest.

00:40:41.000 We were eating fast food every single day, three times a day, never drank water, soda only, smoking, like, a pack and a half of cigarettes a day, and just on the road traveling.

00:40:51.000 And then by 19, I got up to 305 pounds, 19 years old.

00:40:57.000 And I remember one night laying down to go to bed, and I just felt my heart pumping ridiculously.

00:41:03.000 And I was just like, no way.

00:41:04.000 This, like...

00:41:05.000 I think I'm gonna die and like I woke up in a panic and Weird thing is I got up and I went outside for maybe like 10 minutes and I smoked another cigarette And I was just like this is the problem like I'm coughing up stuff my heart is Gonna give out and I'm only 19 years old,

00:41:24.000 you know so around that same week Is when I discovered MMA with my brother just like watching ultimate fighter on TV and I went on my last tour, and I told the guys, like, hey, I'm going to go train MMA. They're like, oh, you're going to be a fighter?

00:41:39.000 And I was just like, I don't know what I'm going to be, but I'm going to go train and get healthy.

00:41:43.000 And they're like, okay, cool.

00:41:44.000 We'll see you in a couple months.

00:41:46.000 No one really believed that I was going to go and actually train and fight.

00:41:50.000 I told you guys have always been this big, quiet, non-confrontational guy.

00:41:53.000 So...

00:41:55.000 Yeah, I went and took my first class Muay Thai and March 1st, 2010, took my first Muay Thai class.

00:42:01.000 And then after like a month of doing Muay Thai, I started to see progression.

00:42:07.000 I started to see like my face was slimming down, all this stuff.

00:42:10.000 So it gave me motivation to keep going.

00:42:12.000 And then I remember going to a MMA event, amateur, and I saw really big heavyweight guys going at it.

00:42:20.000 So I was like, ah, I think I want to do it.

00:42:21.000 I want to give it a try.

00:42:23.000 And so my coach was like, okay, if you lose 100 pounds, I'll find you a fight.

00:42:28.000 And I was like, 100 pounds?

00:42:29.000 He's like, yeah, I'll find you a fight if you lose 100 pounds.

00:42:31.000 So I just kept training within 11 months, lost 100 pounds, and then took my first fight.

00:42:38.000 And then it's just been like, every fight has been...

00:42:41.000 Until now, because now I have more of a drive and a passion for it.

00:42:46.000 But all the way up until then, everything kind of happened by coincidence.

00:42:50.000 I didn't really want to fight, but I had a lot of people like, oh, you're so good, keep doing it.

00:42:56.000 And that was the first time in my life I've ever had people supporting me to really do something that was big.

00:43:03.000 And I was a new guy, and I was in shape, and I could...

00:43:07.000 Girls are noticing me now.

00:43:08.000 My whole life changed within a year of training MMA. From going to this guy that nobody even paid attention to, to just like, oh, hey, how's it going?

00:43:18.000 Or like, oh, you're so in shape.

00:43:20.000 And I was just like, oh, this is weird.

00:43:21.000 It's still weird.

00:43:22.000 It's only been nine years, eight years.

00:43:26.000 So everything's still very new to me.

00:43:28.000 My first day stepping on the mat was like...

00:43:31.000 You know, nine years ago.

00:43:33.000 Dude, that's an amazing story.

00:43:35.000 It's crazy.

00:43:36.000 That's like a legit success story.

00:43:38.000 Yeah, it's...

00:43:38.000 You know?

00:43:39.000 Is that you?

00:43:40.000 What kind of ridiculous ringtone do you have, sir?

00:43:43.000 What is that?

00:43:45.000 Sorry.

00:43:46.000 I thought I turned it off.

00:43:47.000 What is that?

00:43:48.000 It's just like stock iPhone.

00:43:50.000 Oh, is it?

00:43:52.000 You ventured into the options.

00:43:54.000 Yeah.

00:43:55.000 You went down in there.

00:43:56.000 Yes, sir.

00:43:57.000 So yeah, that's kind of how everything started.

00:44:00.000 And then with three or four fights, and then I tried out for the Ultimate Fighter.

00:44:06.000 So I had like three or four fights in one year being a pro.

00:44:09.000 And then the Ultimate Fighter Trials came out and I tried out for that and made it on.

00:44:14.000 And I was like, oh shit.

00:44:15.000 So most of my career has been in the UFC. Wow.

00:44:18.000 Yeah.

00:44:20.000 When you hear about fighters, particularly boxers, you hear a really well-managed boxer will get fights to test him, but with a guy that you could beat.

00:44:28.000 And you learn a different thing from each different fighter as you move out the ladder.

00:44:33.000 And way more of them are undefeated.

00:44:35.000 When they finally get a shot at either a title or a top contender.

00:44:40.000 But in MMA, you could be fighting the top-level guys within a couple of years of joining.

00:44:46.000 It could honestly be a couple years prior to that if you're particularly talented where you picked up martial arts.

00:44:52.000 Like Ngannou, perfect example.

00:44:54.000 Francis Ngannou is an incredible example because he's really only done MMA for five years and he's still, right now, the scariest guy In that cage.

00:45:04.000 Exactly.

00:45:04.000 When he's throwing bombs away, you just go...

00:45:08.000 When he knocked out Overeem, that was an unheard of knockout.

00:45:15.000 Yeah, I sparred with him in preparation for that fight.

00:45:18.000 And I actually almost got hit with that same punch.

00:45:21.000 But yeah, Francis and I went three rounds in the cage.

00:45:25.000 And then I remember Forrest was there and John, the head coach of Syndicate...

00:45:31.000 And they were like, okay, you guys, tone it down, because we were going at it.

00:45:33.000 I mean, it was fun.

00:45:34.000 I like to go hard.

00:45:36.000 How often, though?

00:45:38.000 How often do I like to go hard?

00:45:41.000 Every now and then.

00:45:42.000 Do you do mostly technical?

00:45:45.000 Yeah, so like in Thailand right now, it's like everyday technical, one day sparring, or one or two days sparring.

00:45:51.000 And when you say sparring, MMA sparring?

00:45:52.000 MMA sparring, yeah.

00:45:54.000 And then the other days are just like technical grappling and technical striking, and then, you know, wrestling, and then, yeah, spar on Fridays.

00:46:03.000 Now, when they break it up, do you have someone who makes your schedule for you, like for the week?

00:46:09.000 Do you have all your training routines, like what your schedule set up for, morning, evening?

00:46:16.000 Do you have that planned out in advance?

00:46:19.000 So, for instance, the gym has a schedule of all the classes, but the head MMA coach, George, would help me out.

00:46:27.000 Like, hey, if you're getting ready for a fight, show up to these, these, and these, and I'll help you.

00:46:31.000 Yeah.

00:46:32.000 Almost like a curriculum.

00:46:33.000 Yeah, yeah, exactly.

00:46:34.000 So that actually helped.

00:46:35.000 And the cool thing about it is like everything was in line.

00:46:39.000 So like whatever I worked with him personally in the morning, we'd still be going over in practice and even in the night practice.

00:46:44.000 So getting the same things like, you know, multiple times a day instead of just one time and then you'll get it again later.

00:46:52.000 And when you're training over there, you said 50 to 60 professionals?

00:46:59.000 I've seen so many guys on the mat, yeah.

00:47:01.000 And I'd say on a very, very low day, 20. Like, so many people.

00:47:08.000 So many people.

00:47:09.000 Guys and girls, man.

00:47:10.000 And how much of your time are you spending striking versus grappling?

00:47:14.000 Do you specialize in one thing or the other?

00:47:16.000 Well, I can train grappling all day and never get bored.

00:47:19.000 And, like, even if I'm tired, I can still do it.

00:47:23.000 But then, like, grappling, I do it a lot of the times because I like it, but it's mandatory, and it's my job.

00:47:32.000 So I'm like, okay, I'm going to go to grappling class.

00:47:34.000 But, um...

00:47:37.000 It seems like it's an even balance, but I love to go to striking more because it's just like, that's my favorite thing.

00:47:44.000 Yeah, so one striking class, one grappling class, one MMA class, all in one day type of thing.

00:47:53.000 So like two hours a piece and then conditioning and running and all that stuff in the middle.

00:47:57.000 And that's one whole day.

00:47:59.000 Yeah.

00:47:59.000 Jesus.

00:48:00.000 Yeah.

00:48:01.000 Well, the MMA class is more like, so there's a class of MMA, one personal going over like my specific things that I like to work on and want to work on.

00:48:11.000 And then maybe whoever's mimicking the opponent.

00:48:14.000 And then in the morning Muay Thai.

00:48:16.000 So for me, it's always great to start the morning off with Muay Thai.

00:48:19.000 Wake up first thing, have coffee.

00:48:21.000 Do my 5-6K run, train Muay Thai for two hours, eat, go do MMA personal, and then do the MMA class at the end.

00:48:32.000 And then go relax after.

00:48:34.000 That routine for me can work every day.

00:48:36.000 And it does.

00:48:37.000 Everything's disciplined.

00:48:39.000 To do the same thing every day is very common in Thailand.

00:48:42.000 And I think that's why I was able to put that performance on and use that many kicks because we throw so many in one day.

00:48:49.000 You know what I mean?

00:48:49.000 What's different about the training there?

00:48:51.000 There's not really classes.

00:48:53.000 For MMA, there's not much talking.

00:48:58.000 In Muay Thai, there's no talking.

00:49:01.000 They tell you what to do a little bit, like punch, kick, knee, teep, five times, 10 times, 20 times.

00:49:08.000 It's a lot of repetition.

00:49:10.000 And the same thing in the MMA class.

00:49:12.000 George gives us a lot of time to drill and drill at our own pace and things like that before we go live.

00:49:20.000 And I think that that's what's helped me the most is less talking, more drilling.

00:49:25.000 Show me one or two things.

00:49:26.000 We're mixed martial artists.

00:49:27.000 We're going to create something off of it.

00:49:29.000 It's okay.

00:49:30.000 And just let us drill it.

00:49:32.000 Let us drill it.

00:49:33.000 Walk around, correct if you need to, but I think people need to spend more time drilling on the mat, go live every now and then just so you can feel what you're at.

00:49:41.000 But the only way you're going to get good is by drilling.

00:49:44.000 Yeah, it's just not as fun.

00:49:46.000 Exactly.

00:49:46.000 But it's training.

00:49:48.000 I don't think training should be fun.

00:49:49.000 You tell a dog to sit a hundred times.

00:49:51.000 You've got to give him some type of treat.

00:49:53.000 The problem is certain parts of training are fun, right?

00:49:55.000 Which is probably one of the reasons why you like striking.

00:49:57.000 Exactly.

00:49:58.000 It's fun.

00:49:58.000 That part for me, I can just...

00:50:00.000 Yeah.

00:50:02.000 Yeah, I really believe that psychologists should study fighters, study high-level fighters to try to figure out what makes them tick, because there's all these different versions.

00:50:13.000 You're a different version.

00:50:15.000 You, the 300-pound guy that decides to lose all this weight, and now you're one of the best fighters in the 205-pound division of the UFC. It's crazy, man.

00:50:23.000 I mean, that's a wild story.

00:50:25.000 It'd be really cool, though.

00:50:26.000 Yeah.

00:50:27.000 Yeah.

00:50:27.000 Maybe he'll get one.

00:50:28.000 Psychology studies on fighters is almost mandatory.

00:50:31.000 Because there's certain guys that, like, they're just impenetrable.

00:50:34.000 You know?

00:50:35.000 There's certain guys that just, they just, like, Khabib.

00:50:38.000 It's impenetrable.

00:50:39.000 Like, you're not, the more shit you talk, the more he's gonna fuck you up when he gets a hold of you.

00:50:44.000 Like, it's not working, man.

00:50:45.000 It's not getting in there.

00:50:46.000 And then there's certain guys that, like, sometimes they're hot, and sometimes they get rattled, and You know?

00:50:52.000 It's a crazy endeavor, what you guys do.

00:50:56.000 It really is.

00:50:56.000 Yeah, it definitely is, man.

00:50:58.000 I think a documentary or something would be really cool, too.

00:51:02.000 Yeah.

00:51:02.000 I think a lot of people and the fans need to see kind of a little bit more of the inside, the real stuff, you know?

00:51:09.000 Yeah.

00:51:09.000 The real stuff, like...

00:51:22.000 Yeah.

00:51:35.000 It's, I mean, the balancing act is, it's a strange thing to ignore.

00:51:40.000 You know, the balancing act that a fighter has to have with their personality, with training and competing and then just being a normal person and the highs and the lows and managing all the stress of an upcoming fight.

00:51:52.000 And you're just sort of asked to go it on your own.

00:51:54.000 Like, hey, good luck.

00:51:55.000 Keep your shit together.

00:51:57.000 Yeah.

00:51:57.000 In the face of flying fists.

00:51:59.000 And it sucks too because the higher we go up, then it's just like...

00:52:02.000 It's kind of hard to go anywhere behind, right?

00:52:05.000 It's like we're working to get to the top as fighters, and we want to be known, but the higher that we go, the more obligations, media, people want to talk to you, all this stuff, so your time kind of gets short.

00:52:19.000 I was thinking about it last time, like, damn, like...

00:52:22.000 Getting to the top is going to kind of suck.

00:52:25.000 Media week or fight week for everybody at the top.

00:52:30.000 They're like, press conference, this, that, that.

00:52:32.000 I'm the type of guy where I just relax.

00:52:35.000 I'll definitely need a psychologist or something to help me out.

00:52:40.000 More hypnotism, for sure.

00:52:41.000 I don't know how much they do at the UFC Performance Institute as far as mindset training.

00:52:48.000 Do they do any of that over there?

00:52:50.000 Not that I've seen.

00:52:52.000 That place is insane.

00:52:53.000 Have you had a chance to train there at all?

00:52:54.000 Yeah, I did two fight camps there when I used to live in Vegas.

00:52:59.000 It's amazing.

00:53:00.000 It's a crazy place.

00:53:01.000 It was a little too good for me.

00:53:04.000 I started feeling a little bit spoiled.

00:53:06.000 I was like, I've got to go run out in the street.

00:53:07.000 I can't be running out of these...

00:53:09.000 Nice treadmills, man.

00:53:10.000 I mean, to have a place like that where the company creates this super high-level training environment that there's not another gym like it on the planet Earth.

00:53:18.000 On the planet.

00:53:19.000 And then they just decide, like, hey, go ahead and work out there for free.

00:53:22.000 Seriously.

00:53:23.000 It's pretty dope.

00:53:23.000 Oh, you want a protein shake?

00:53:24.000 Okay, you want food?

00:53:25.000 Like, whatever you need.

00:53:26.000 Just live here.

00:53:27.000 Yeah.

00:53:28.000 Look, it's a great way to keep guys on track with their weight cuts, too.

00:53:32.000 Very informational, that place.

00:53:35.000 They've taught me so much.

00:53:36.000 Just about recovery and what to do afterward.

00:53:43.000 They're investing a lot in different programs for us to take home so that we can make sure that Like, our nervous system's good for the next day.

00:53:51.000 Like, they're putting so much stuff into figuring out how to help the fighters.

00:53:56.000 You know what I was tripped out by, man?

00:53:57.000 That underwater treadmill jammy.

00:54:00.000 Isn't it amazing?

00:54:00.000 Did you run on it?

00:54:01.000 No, I didn't.

00:54:02.000 No, you gotta do it.

00:54:03.000 It's sick.

00:54:03.000 I was wearing my clothes.

00:54:05.000 I wasn't gonna jump in there, but I was like, what?

00:54:06.000 Look at this.

00:54:07.000 This is crazy, this thing.

00:54:08.000 It's sick, man.

00:54:09.000 Did you do it?

00:54:09.000 Yeah, I did it a few times.

00:54:10.000 Is it good for your cardio?

00:54:13.000 It's low impact on the joints.

00:54:16.000 You'll get a real good cardio push on it.

00:54:20.000 There's jets blowing at you and the treadmills on the bottom.

00:54:27.000 You're running against the water.

00:54:30.000 Depending on how deep you go, that's all resistance.

00:54:34.000 You can go just waist level and it's a little bit easier, but the lower you go, the harder it is.

00:54:39.000 Real good cardio.

00:54:40.000 Did you do the zero gravity?

00:54:41.000 I didn't do any of the things there.

00:54:43.000 I just looked at them.

00:54:43.000 They just gave me the tour.

00:54:45.000 Forrest Griffin gave me the 411. Yeah.

00:54:48.000 They've done a lot.

00:54:49.000 When's the last time you were there?

00:54:50.000 What's the zero gravity?

00:54:50.000 It's been a while.

00:54:51.000 Maybe a year.

00:54:52.000 What was the zero gravity?

00:54:54.000 So, there's a treadmill, and you put these pants on, and then you zip into this, like you zip into it.

00:55:00.000 Oh, I did see that.

00:55:01.000 And then you turn it on, and it fills up with this air, and then you can run...

00:55:05.000 Up to like 10% of your body weight.

00:55:08.000 So it's just like, it's another zero gravity treadmill.

00:55:13.000 It's not.

00:55:13.000 Low impact.

00:55:14.000 Low impact.

00:55:14.000 Super low.

00:55:15.000 10% of your body weight.

00:55:17.000 So you're just like tippy toes.

00:55:18.000 Oh, that's so weird.

00:55:19.000 Yeah.

00:55:21.000 Yeah, that's really weird.

00:55:22.000 It's a good idea.

00:55:23.000 That's a lot of cool stuff, man.

00:55:24.000 Well, they're at the forefront of all recovery methods and training methods.

00:55:30.000 Nutrition.

00:55:30.000 Yeah.

00:55:31.000 Did you see what they're doing for this on Fight Week?

00:55:32.000 What are they doing?

00:55:33.000 So this last fight, they were like, hey, do you want any help?

00:55:36.000 Do you have your meals prepped or anything like that?

00:55:39.000 I was like, no, I don't.

00:55:40.000 So I guess for the people that are fighting within the U.S. for now, they'll prep and make everything.

00:55:48.000 For fight week when you're cutting weight.

00:55:50.000 And they'll make sure you stay in contact with the guys, Clint and them.

00:55:54.000 And they'll check your weight.

00:55:56.000 And then they'll make meals according to you.

00:55:59.000 Whatever you need.

00:56:00.000 Deliver them to your room.

00:56:01.000 That's outstanding.

00:56:02.000 It was the best.

00:56:03.000 And then the recovery afterward.

00:56:04.000 They give you these drinks.

00:56:05.000 All USADA approved.

00:56:08.000 All that stuff.

00:56:08.000 It's like no problems.

00:56:10.000 They help so much with that last weight cut and rehydration.

00:56:14.000 How much do you cut?

00:56:16.000 This fight I cut...

00:56:21.000 19?

00:56:21.000 19 pounds, and that's a lot.

00:56:23.000 Usually, I usually cut maybe 4 to 7 pounds.

00:56:26.000 Wow.

00:56:27.000 The last couple fights, I was just coasted.

00:56:29.000 But when I went to Thailand, there was a lot of sugar and a lot of stuff that I was eating out there.

00:56:36.000 Is that really what it was?

00:56:37.000 Yeah.

00:56:37.000 I was in Bangkok for a long time, and it's just a lot of street food, a lot of fried food and stuff.

00:56:43.000 And I was just there, and I'm like, I'm going to try everything.

00:56:46.000 So once I got to Phuket, they actually have like...

00:56:49.000 Health food stuff, vegan stuff.

00:56:51.000 They have a lot of tourists there, especially on the street.

00:56:53.000 So the street that Tiger's on, all gyms.

00:56:56.000 It's like five or six CrossFit gyms, maybe 10 restaurants, health food restaurants, everything.

00:57:02.000 So I was able to stay on track there.

00:57:05.000 So I was just back just a few weeks.

00:57:07.000 Yeah, but I still made wait, so that's good.

00:57:10.000 That's a lot of weight to cut, though, right?

00:57:12.000 You like to cut about five or six, is that what you're saying?

00:57:15.000 Yeah, no more than eight.

00:57:17.000 Eight is pushing it for me.

00:57:18.000 What difference do you feel?

00:57:21.000 The day after, with their rehydration method, I felt amazing.

00:57:26.000 Usually, cutting that much, I'd feel a little bit bloated, a little heavy, sleepier, all that stuff.

00:57:30.000 This is when you're talking...

00:57:32.000 Did you ever do IV? I did do IV, yeah.

00:57:34.000 When I used to fight in the RFA at 185. I used to fight at 185. Oh my god.

00:57:39.000 That's hilarious.

00:57:41.000 How much did you cut?

00:57:42.000 I used to cut from...

00:57:44.000 I tried to get as close to 200 as possible and then cut the 15. You must be super skinny at 200 too.

00:57:51.000 Damn.

00:57:51.000 Terrible.

00:57:52.000 Terrible.

00:57:53.000 I'm struggling to make 205. Not struggling, but it hurts to make 205 now, so I couldn't even imagine.

00:58:00.000 It sucked.

00:58:01.000 What would you think about if they abandoned weight cutting?

00:58:06.000 They just opened up more weight classes and abandoned weight cutting.

00:58:12.000 I mean, I wouldn't mind it.

00:58:13.000 I would like to see that.

00:58:14.000 Don't you think it would be better for the fighters?

00:58:16.000 I think it would be better for the fighters and we'd see some really cool matchups.

00:58:19.000 You know what I mean?

00:58:20.000 Because there's some guys that cut a lot of weight and there's some matchups that would be really cool at different weights too.

00:58:25.000 I think it's one of those dumb things that's existed in the past and we never corrected.

00:58:29.000 I think we should stop it.

00:58:32.000 It's not helping anybody.

00:58:33.000 To lose weight for a fight so that you can be fit and in great shape, yeah, okay, sure.

00:58:38.000 But how do you go about that?

00:58:39.000 But I mean, losing weight in training, not like massive dehydration for weight cut day, and then rehydration the next day for fight day.

00:58:47.000 I think it's a crazy strain that guys are doing to their kidneys and their bodies.

00:58:51.000 I mean, many fighters have told me that they don't feel like they can take a body shot as well when they cut a lot of weight.

00:58:58.000 Yeah, sometimes my head, I remember in the Johnny Walker fight, I had cut, excuse me, it could have been from the weight cut, but that morning, if I even tapped on my jaw, I just felt like my head was just off, like rattly.

00:59:14.000 Really?

00:59:14.000 Yeah, I felt very sensitive.

00:59:16.000 You think that's from the weight cut?

00:59:17.000 The same night, I get knocked out.

00:59:18.000 I don't know what it was from, but I remember feeling that morning when I woke up, Because usually I, like, I'll shake everything off.

00:59:25.000 I'll, like, you know, like, punch myself in the jaw, all that stuff, just to get ready for the fight.

00:59:29.000 And I remember that that morning when I was, like, tapping myself on the jaw, my head just didn't feel right.

00:59:35.000 Dude.

00:59:36.000 Yeah.

00:59:36.000 That's not a good feeling.

00:59:37.000 No.

00:59:37.000 But I got it checked after.

00:59:38.000 I didn't have any, like...

00:59:40.000 Did you have some particularly hard sparring session or something close to that?

00:59:46.000 I don't think close to it.

00:59:47.000 During that camp, like I said, I didn't feel it all the way until...

00:59:53.000 I didn't have it.

00:59:54.000 The only time I ever felt it was after the weight cut, so it could have been from that.

00:59:59.000 And I think that morning, I actually ended up cutting the last little bit of my weight the morning of weigh-ins too, which is not usually like me.

01:00:07.000 I usually cut it the night before.

01:00:09.000 So you said you like to start your day off with a run.

01:00:11.000 Are you doing that every day?

01:00:13.000 Yeah, definitely.

01:00:14.000 Really?

01:00:14.000 So that's one thing that I learned, too, is just training every day.

01:00:18.000 Not learn, but it just feels different.

01:00:20.000 Now I have to go and train every day.

01:00:23.000 When I was in Vegas, I was like, I've got to drive 30 minutes.

01:00:26.000 You know, all these things I had a lot of excuses to make up.

01:00:29.000 And now with the convenience of how training is now, I don't even make up excuses.

01:00:33.000 I'm like, if I'm tired, I still...

01:00:35.000 It's a two-minute walk.

01:00:36.000 Get your ass to the gym, you know?

01:00:38.000 Right.

01:00:38.000 And so, yeah, every single day training and then weekends off for sure.

01:00:42.000 So you're running every single day, then you're training every single day.

01:00:45.000 Before Muay Thai, it's mandatory you run.

01:00:47.000 That's how they train unless you run first.

01:00:50.000 You show up, you run.

01:00:51.000 The first day I showed up...

01:00:54.000 At Tiger's Muay Thai class, I didn't even have tennis shoes.

01:00:58.000 I just showed up with my flip-flops because I was staying right across the street.

01:01:01.000 And I showed up.

01:01:02.000 I started wrapping my hands.

01:01:03.000 And the trainer, he's like, are you going to train?

01:01:05.000 And I was like, yeah, I think so.

01:01:07.000 He's like, you think so?

01:01:08.000 Go run.

01:01:08.000 And I was like, I don't have shoes.

01:01:10.000 I only have my flip-flops.

01:01:11.000 And he's like, just pointed.

01:01:13.000 Like, so?

01:01:14.000 Go run.

01:01:15.000 And I had to run like, I think it was like eight kilometers in flip-flops before I could even train.

01:01:20.000 Yeah.

01:01:20.000 That's like four miles, right?

01:01:22.000 Somewhere around there?

01:01:24.000 Five and a half?

01:01:24.000 Yeah, it's like four miles, something like that.

01:01:27.000 We just had to run, run, run, run, run, run.

01:01:29.000 I asked the girl, I was like, how long do we run for?

01:01:30.000 She's like, usually like five to six kilometers or something like that.

01:01:34.000 5K is like three and a half miles.

01:01:35.000 Yeah, I'd say like just cutting it short, 5K. Wow.

01:01:39.000 And in flip flops.

01:01:41.000 That's ruthless.

01:01:41.000 And I was like, okay, cool.

01:01:42.000 Yeah, I never forgot my shoes again.

01:01:44.000 I would always show up.

01:01:44.000 How bad did that fuck your feet up?

01:01:46.000 It wasn't too bad, actually.

01:01:47.000 No?

01:01:47.000 No, because I wasn't wearing shoes a lot anyway.

01:01:49.000 Just Thailand, sometimes you gotta take off your shoes before you enter the store.

01:01:53.000 So they're hard-assed in their discipline with wanting you to run first.

01:01:58.000 They're just serious about it.

01:01:59.000 They're like, show respect.

01:02:01.000 And when you're running, are you running with a group of guys?

01:02:04.000 Everybody.

01:02:04.000 Guys, girls, whoever shows up to class.

01:02:08.000 Okay, so when they're running, are they running organized in a group?

01:02:13.000 Or is everybody running a few miles before class every time?

01:02:17.000 The first Muay Thai gym that I trained at, the straight Muay Thai gym in Bangkok, they run as a unit every day, 5am, as a team.

01:02:27.000 They live at the gym, they eat at the gym, they sleep at the gym.

01:02:31.000 They are.

01:02:32.000 Like, they don't have homes.

01:02:34.000 Their home is the gym, and their job is just fight and eat, sleep, train, fight.

01:02:38.000 That's it.

01:02:39.000 It's crazy when they even take on the name of the gym.

01:02:41.000 Yeah, exactly.

01:02:43.000 And that's a whole different life.

01:02:45.000 Like, that is what made me respect and learn and love Muay Thai so much, is how these guys trained and just they lived together, everything.

01:02:52.000 It was amazing.

01:02:54.000 So...

01:02:55.000 They run as a group, but the other place, we all start off, but if someone's lapping you and they just want to run fast, it's totally fine.

01:03:03.000 But before the class, everybody has to go.

01:03:07.000 Wow, that's a smart way to do it, man.

01:03:09.000 I mean, if you could really convince them to be conditioned all the time.

01:03:14.000 You have no option.

01:03:15.000 You can't be out of condition if you're going to run five miles every day.

01:03:18.000 No.

01:03:18.000 Five miles and then hitting and kicking pads for five to ten rounds a day, clinching 45 minutes a day.

01:03:26.000 Like, clinching after every session, it's like you run, knee bag, sit-ups, all that stuff.

01:03:33.000 Second session is kick the bag three to five rounds until a trainer picks you up.

01:03:40.000 Like, for me, I had to wait for a trainer to actually even, like, want to hold pads for me.

01:03:45.000 If you just show up, you'll just be hitting the bag until the trainer was like, hey, okay, I'll hold for you.

01:03:51.000 And then once you actually find a trainer that wants to work with you, Then, whatever their schedule is for you, they'll create it.

01:04:01.000 They'll hold pads, you'll kick the bag, you'll do push-ups, you'll do sit-ups, and then clinch 30 to 45 minutes after.

01:04:08.000 It's the same thing every single day.

01:04:11.000 Wow.

01:04:12.000 And do you ever worry that this might be something that would be monotonous because you're doing the same way every day?

01:04:17.000 Or do you think we just concentrate on excellence?

01:04:19.000 No, because it's also like going to the fights and there's so many different styles.

01:04:25.000 So like people are doing the same thing every day, the repetition.

01:04:28.000 But...

01:04:30.000 The styles are completely different.

01:04:32.000 Nobody fights like Sanchai, right?

01:04:34.000 He does the same thing everybody else does, but he has his own style.

01:04:37.000 You know what I mean?

01:04:38.000 Or some guys will do the same thing, but they don't even like to kick or knee.

01:04:41.000 They just like to throw elbows.

01:04:43.000 I know plenty of guys like that.

01:04:44.000 You know that when he goes, he's just throwing elbows all five rounds.

01:04:49.000 This guy's just gonna throw knees.

01:04:51.000 So, it's just like, which tools do you use the best?

01:04:55.000 Are you a knee-er?

01:04:56.000 Are you a kicker?

01:04:57.000 Are you an elbow guy?

01:04:58.000 Are you a left kicker?

01:04:59.000 Are you a low kicker?

01:04:59.000 It's kind of like, which strikes are your thing?

01:05:03.000 And then you go watch the chaos, and these guys are getting split open every night.

01:05:07.000 On the stretchers, they take them stretchers on the ring, man.

01:05:09.000 It's amazing.

01:05:11.000 It's like, not to see someone get hurt, but just the fact that these guys are all out brawling every night.

01:05:17.000 Every single night, there's a fight at the stadium.

01:05:19.000 And Thursday nights are the nights that the...

01:05:33.000 How did Sanchai figure out how to do Muay Thai different than anybody?

01:05:47.000 Man, he's so interesting with his quick switches of the feet and even the way he throws kicks, he's just got a little different flavor to everything he does.

01:05:56.000 I don't think he can help it.

01:05:57.000 You know what I mean?

01:05:58.000 There's just something about the guy's character.

01:06:01.000 His fighting is him.

01:06:04.000 He's kind of outgoing, just a weird, funky guy, and it makes sense that he fights like that.

01:06:10.000 You know what I mean?

01:06:10.000 It's not like he's just serious.

01:06:12.000 Yeah.

01:06:13.000 Stern guy, but then goes out there and fights all crazy.

01:06:17.000 His fighting is definitely an expression of himself.

01:06:20.000 He's so good, man.

01:06:21.000 He's so good.

01:06:22.000 I like watching him just warm up.

01:06:24.000 Sneakers on, outside, sweating, throwing elbows and knees and shit.

01:06:28.000 He's a bad motherfucker, man.

01:06:30.000 And he's not young.

01:06:32.000 No, I think he's in his 40s.

01:06:34.000 Is he?

01:06:34.000 Yeah.

01:06:35.000 Really?

01:06:35.000 Yeah.

01:06:36.000 Can we look how old Sanchez?

01:06:38.000 38. 38. Oh.

01:06:40.000 He's getting there.

01:06:41.000 But meanwhile, he's in his prime.

01:06:42.000 Still fighting.

01:06:43.000 Fucking people up.

01:06:43.000 All the time.

01:06:44.000 Multiple times a month.

01:06:45.000 Multiple times a month.

01:06:46.000 Have a fight.

01:06:47.000 Good luck.

01:06:47.000 You know, show his fists in a dynamite.

01:06:50.000 His Instagram was awesome, man.

01:06:52.000 And he's got these great videos of him warming up, and you watch him, his movement, man.

01:06:56.000 It's like, wow, that guy's, he's something special.

01:06:59.000 It takes a lot of fucking energy to move around the way he does, too.

01:07:02.000 Yeah, I'm sure he still shows up to the gym every single day, too.

01:07:04.000 I'm sure.

01:07:04.000 And he's, like, holding pads for foreigners and all that stuff.

01:07:06.000 I stopped by Yakout Gym.

01:07:07.000 He wasn't there, but I hear, like, he's always there.

01:07:10.000 Look at that guy.

01:07:10.000 That's the motherfucking man right there.

01:07:12.000 He just posted a video the other day wearing this crazy wig.

01:07:16.000 Go to see if you can find a video of him.

01:07:18.000 There it is right there.

01:07:19.000 Look at this guy.

01:07:26.000 Even how he throws his kick.

01:07:28.000 It's different, right?

01:07:29.000 It's so different.

01:07:29.000 Yeah.

01:07:30.000 Like, he doesn't really, like, turn all of his upper body like a lot of the ones I've seen.

01:07:35.000 Right.

01:07:35.000 He's a volume guy, but he knocks guys out with one shot, too.

01:07:39.000 Look at that catch.

01:07:39.000 He didn't even, like, it just instinctual, you know?

01:07:42.000 Like, he didn't even think about it.

01:07:43.000 Didn't even flinch.

01:07:43.000 He's so good.

01:07:44.000 Checked.

01:07:45.000 Up.

01:07:46.000 Swipe.

01:07:49.000 It's interesting when you think of how many different people are doing it and that this one guy stands out.

01:07:54.000 I love outliers, man.

01:07:56.000 So that's one thing that I learned compared to watching Muay Thai in the States and then going there, the amount of kicks and knees that they're throwing.

01:08:06.000 I'm looking at fighting like, okay, when's the next punch gonna happen?

01:08:09.000 These guys throwing kick after kick after kick for five rounds.

01:08:14.000 I was like, okay, I'm definitely not kicking enough, so I gotta start kicking.

01:08:20.000 Being in Thailand definitely helped me to learn the importance of kicking.

01:08:24.000 So we were talking about the shoot box style.

01:08:26.000 Rafael Cordero, who is absolutely one of the best Muay Thai striking coaches on the planet.

01:08:32.000 It's funny that he's such a nice guy, and he trained the most murderous crew of angry Brazilians.

01:08:40.000 Rafael Cordero could not be nicer.

01:08:43.000 They had Anderson Silva, they had Vanderlei, and when Vanderlei Shogun...

01:08:48.000 Look at that photo with Rafael Codera.

01:08:50.000 Oh my god, Rafael Shogun.

01:08:52.000 Yeah.

01:08:53.000 Dude, that's a fucking team of assassins.

01:08:55.000 Another one that's got like Pele, everybody in it.

01:08:58.000 Yes, that's right.

01:08:58.000 Anderson.

01:08:58.000 Pele, too.

01:09:00.000 They were some hard men.

01:09:00.000 The guy who taught me Muay Thai, Michael Costa, he was from that same group.

01:09:06.000 I really, to this day, do not understand why Muay Thai is not more popular.

01:09:10.000 I've never understood it.

01:09:11.000 It's so exciting to watch.

01:09:13.000 I was like, if we had a league in America that people understood who the fighters were, got to know them and root for them.

01:09:19.000 You know, like you see with boxing, with Terrence Crawford.

01:09:22.000 He's prime right now.

01:09:24.000 Yeah.

01:09:24.000 You know, he's on top of the world.

01:09:26.000 I want to see a guy like that in Muay Thai.

01:09:29.000 And I think it would be the same thing.

01:09:31.000 I think Americans would jump on board if they understood how exciting it is.

01:09:34.000 Yeah.

01:09:35.000 You see a lot of...

01:09:36.000 You see...

01:09:38.000 A good handful of foreigners and Americans in Thailand to go watch Muay Thai.

01:09:43.000 And I thought the same thing.

01:09:44.000 Like, man, they got to get this out here.

01:09:47.000 Let's figure it out.

01:09:48.000 You and me, let's figure it out.

01:09:49.000 What are they missing?

01:09:50.000 What's missing?

01:09:52.000 Dana White has a good point.

01:09:53.000 He thinks that culturally we won't accept kickboxing after PKA karate from like the 1980s.

01:09:59.000 That's right before my time.

01:10:00.000 I was born in 90. Guys would throw these little kicks because they had to throw like eight kicks around.

01:10:06.000 You know?

01:10:06.000 And then they would have, like, a sloppy boxing match some of the time.

01:10:09.000 There were some really good guys that fought in there, too.

01:10:12.000 Like, real high-level guys, like Benegett or Kiedes, fought in PKA, and, you know, a lot of, like, really, really good strikers.

01:10:19.000 But it was...

01:10:22.000 There was nothing compelling about it.

01:10:24.000 It wasn't something that you wanted to watch all the time.

01:10:28.000 But if you could watch some of the best Muay Thai fights that you've ever seen, and you could watch them on television, just show people on television some crazy wars that you and I have seen from the past, how could you not like that?

01:10:42.000 If you like striking, how could you not like guys who are experts in bone smashing?

01:10:47.000 Dude, that's why...

01:10:50.000 I have a lot of love, too, for, like, I'm a huge One Championship fan.

01:10:53.000 Me, too.

01:10:54.000 I'm a huge One Championship fan.

01:10:56.000 Yeah.

01:10:56.000 I like what he's doing.

01:10:56.000 I like how he's mixing all three of them together, too.

01:10:58.000 It's amazing.

01:10:59.000 Because, like, you can literally go to a fight and see a good MMA match.

01:11:03.000 Yep.

01:11:03.000 If you like grappling and striking, obviously.

01:11:07.000 And you can see legit Muay Thai fighters.

01:11:09.000 Yeah.

01:11:09.000 Like, my friends from the stadium are fighting in Bangkok on the 10th.

01:11:12.000 So I'm, like, really, like, I can't wait because I really want to get there by the 10th.

01:11:16.000 To go see this one championship event in Bangkok.

01:11:20.000 Wow.

01:11:20.000 But the guy, one of my friends is like, Pat Bam, he's a stadium champion.

01:11:26.000 And he's fighting one championship again.

01:11:28.000 And it's like, it's just sick to see, man.

01:11:31.000 Yeah, I don't think people understand how big it is in Asia either.

01:11:34.000 There's a lot of American fans that are just really, they're missing it.

01:11:37.000 It's like Asia's version of the UFC. It's gigantic, if not bigger.

01:11:41.000 Yeah.

01:11:42.000 Yeah, the numbers are insane.

01:11:43.000 And they got some fucking killers over there.

01:11:46.000 Yeah.

01:11:46.000 Yes, they do.

01:11:47.000 They got some legit killers.

01:11:48.000 Yeah.

01:11:49.000 Yeah, that's like that guy, Nasty Ukin, who just knocked out Eddie Alvarez?

01:11:53.000 Yep.

01:11:53.000 He trained a tiger.

01:11:55.000 Dude, that guy's legit.

01:11:57.000 Yeah, I remember...

01:11:58.000 Did you train with him at all?

01:11:59.000 No, well, alongside him.

01:12:01.000 I didn't personally train with him, but I remember one day, we were training, and he was the last one on the mat, and our wrestling coach, Frank, was like...

01:12:10.000 He said something like...

01:12:13.000 10 more sprawls and you beat Eddie Alvarez or something.

01:12:16.000 The guy's just grinding.

01:12:17.000 He's just digging himself into the mat.

01:12:19.000 It was cool to watch him prepare for that fight.

01:12:23.000 There's guys like that.

01:12:26.000 He trains there all the time and he beat Eddie Alvarez.

01:12:29.000 That's a big deal.

01:12:30.000 I think it's a big factor over there too that they don't cut weight.

01:12:33.000 I think that's a big factor.

01:12:34.000 If you're used to being the bigger fighter all the time, and then all of a sudden now you're not, now no one's cutting any weight.

01:12:40.000 I mean, they have some sort of a system.

01:12:42.000 Ben Askren was explaining it to me.

01:12:44.000 I don't really remember how it works, but there's some sort of a system where they stop you from weight cutting.

01:12:49.000 They check your hydration levels.

01:12:50.000 They check your hydration levels, yep.

01:12:51.000 You've got to be...

01:12:52.000 It's the right way to do it.

01:12:54.000 He's correct.

01:12:55.000 He's smart.

01:12:56.000 It's the right way to do it.

01:12:57.000 We should have done it a long time ago in the UFC. I really think that.

01:13:00.000 All the weight cut issues, all that stuff, like ruining cards, it would all be eliminated, right?

01:13:04.000 Yes.

01:13:05.000 Ruining cards, and even more importantly, I think, causing fighters to fight at less than their full potential.

01:13:10.000 How many fighters got hit when they shouldn't have gotten hit because if they were recovered, We're good to go.

01:13:38.000 The training would be a lot better, too, because a lot of fighters spend the last three weeks, four weeks of their camp trying to lose weight.

01:13:46.000 Just trying to lose weight.

01:13:48.000 And that's a whole month of learning and building strength and all that stuff that you could do.

01:13:54.000 So, I don't know.

01:13:55.000 I think it'd be awesome.

01:13:56.000 The only argument for it is that the guys are tough enough to do it and cut a shitload of weight, have this massive size advantage, and sometimes it allows them to win.

01:14:04.000 And they think they should be able to do it because they're tough enough to cut all that weight.

01:14:08.000 Yeah, I get it.

01:14:10.000 I mean, it's hard to do.

01:14:11.000 You have to be a strong person.

01:14:12.000 But I just don't think it's good for anybody.

01:14:14.000 I don't think it's good for the athletes.

01:14:15.000 I don't think it's good for the sport.

01:14:17.000 I don't think it's good for anybody.

01:14:18.000 It's just an old way.

01:14:20.000 It's just an old thing that people are doing so they don't have to fight the bigger people.

01:14:24.000 You know, it's crazy because I have to answer that question a lot for people who don't.

01:14:27.000 Like, some of my friends are just like, oh, like...

01:14:30.000 They'll hit me up like, hey, I'm like, I can't talk this week.

01:14:33.000 Like, I got to cut weight.

01:14:34.000 Like, it's not a good time.

01:14:35.000 I can't talk.

01:14:36.000 And they're like, how do you lose 20 pounds in a day?

01:14:40.000 And why do you do that?

01:14:41.000 You know, I'm just like, I don't know how to explain it.

01:14:43.000 It's just because that's what we do.

01:14:45.000 You know, there's not really...

01:14:47.000 It's just what I have to do.

01:14:49.000 When you see certain fighters get on the scale, though, like Conor McGregor when he made 145, looked like a zombie man, like a Walking Dead character.

01:14:59.000 I was like, holy shit, man.

01:15:00.000 He looks like the Ice King.

01:15:02.000 What's that?

01:15:03.000 No, the Winter King?

01:15:03.000 What do you call him?

01:15:04.000 The Night King.

01:15:05.000 The Night King.

01:15:06.000 Yeah, the Night King.

01:15:07.000 He did look like the Night King.

01:15:09.000 But did you see him when he fought Nate?

01:15:13.000 Yeah, 170 looked great.

01:15:14.000 He looked great, right?

01:15:15.000 He looked great, yeah.

01:15:16.000 There's a difference.

01:15:17.000 Definitely.

01:15:18.000 Yeah, I mean, there's...

01:15:19.000 Wow!

01:15:20.000 Yeah, look at the difference!

01:15:21.000 That's insane!

01:15:23.000 The Night King.

01:15:24.000 Oh, my God.

01:15:24.000 Look, he looks happy right there.

01:15:25.000 He's just like, yeah, I just had a burger.

01:15:27.000 I know.

01:15:28.000 About to sleep good, and then what's the difference?

01:15:30.000 The other one, he's like, yeah!

01:15:32.000 Dude, he's on death's door right there.

01:15:33.000 Really?

01:15:33.000 Only three months apart?

01:15:35.000 Four months apart?

01:15:36.000 No way.

01:15:36.000 December 2015 and March 2016, is that right?

01:15:39.000 Yeah.

01:15:40.000 Wow.

01:15:41.000 You know what's crazy, too?

01:15:42.000 Sometimes, like, weight cutting messes up the mind, too, because you see yourself so shredded.

01:15:46.000 Right?

01:15:47.000 At one point in your life, and then, like, I can get maybe, like, five pounds.

01:15:50.000 I'm like, ah, man, I'm out of shape.

01:15:52.000 Like, I gotta get back in shape.

01:15:53.000 Yeah, you get accustomed to it.

01:15:55.000 Yeah.

01:15:56.000 You'll never allow yourself to get back to 300 pounds again.

01:15:59.000 Oh, never.

01:16:00.000 Never.

01:16:00.000 No, no, there's none of it.

01:16:01.000 No.

01:16:03.000 I can't go down that road, Joe.

01:16:05.000 What a crazy transition, though, to go in a 10-year span from being a guy who's really overweight and worried you're going to die to being an elite UFC fighter.

01:16:15.000 Yeah.

01:16:16.000 Life for me is happening now.

01:16:19.000 This is kind of the beginning of everything for me.

01:16:22.000 It's really cool.

01:16:23.000 It's really cool.

01:16:24.000 And I'm glad that I found mixed martial arts.

01:16:27.000 Just because it gives me...

01:16:29.000 It's a journey, man.

01:16:31.000 It's not just UFC. It's just like finding MMA and diving into different cultures and lifestyles and understandings and sometimes philosophies.

01:16:39.000 All this stuff just to understand, just to put it all together, just to have it all make sense at the end of the day.

01:16:46.000 It's been a beautiful thing, man.

01:16:48.000 I've been able to meet a lot of people, go a lot of places, like...

01:16:51.000 I'm very thankful and I'm very just like, I'm okay with life, you know?

01:16:56.000 That's very good to hear, man.

01:16:58.000 That's a cool thing to hear.

01:16:59.000 I love hearing that.

01:17:01.000 You're cool with life.

01:17:03.000 Yeah, you're on a great path, man.

01:17:06.000 It's also what's inspiring about it for other people is your story of being at a place where you weren't like that before.

01:17:15.000 I think?

01:17:33.000 Maybe if I could just figure out this path in a positive direction, I can change everything.

01:17:37.000 I could be like you right now.

01:17:41.000 What was the exact quote?

01:17:42.000 I'm happy with life.

01:17:44.000 You're cool with life.

01:17:45.000 You're cool with life.

01:17:47.000 You're happy with life.

01:17:48.000 That is a great quote.

01:17:49.000 Most people don't get to that spot.

01:17:51.000 And the crazy thing is, too, I didn't have this dream to be in the UFC. I made a choice to just go get healthy.

01:17:58.000 Yeah, I do.

01:17:59.000 It was like a short, just a short step in the right direction.

01:18:03.000 What propelled you to take the first fight if you were just trying to get healthy?

01:18:08.000 A lot of encouragement and the first time really hearing people being good at something that I was surrounded by.

01:18:22.000 Fighters and guys who believed in me and like who cared and like wanted to see me get better and Tougher and I was getting my ass kicked every day and that was something that wasn't used to Just being in that environment I had at the time learning I had a very strong team like I started at Vanderlei school when he was still fighting so a lot of the guys it was like shoot the box style.

01:18:44.000 It's like Everyone's getting knocked out every training.

01:18:47.000 Somebody gets knocked out really very hard And that was new for me, to get into things like that.

01:18:52.000 He was even doing that in Vegas.

01:18:54.000 Oh, yeah, man.

01:18:55.000 I remember helping him get ready for the...

01:18:59.000 Either it was like Brian Sand or Chris Lieben, and throwing full-on elbows in the cage, no pad.

01:19:06.000 Like, we're going at it.

01:19:07.000 Like, my jaw was dislocated, everything.

01:19:09.000 But it was just like, what we learned was to just always fight.

01:19:12.000 In Brazilian, they bojada every day.

01:19:15.000 Wow.

01:19:15.000 Every day, bojada.

01:19:17.000 Jesus.

01:19:19.000 What do you think about that?

01:19:23.000 It definitely made me tough in the beginning.

01:19:25.000 Now I realize that I've only been doing this a short time and I already feel aches and pains and stuff and I don't want it to be like that when I'm older.

01:19:35.000 So I'm a lot more smart about my training.

01:19:40.000 Do you think it was a critical aspect of your success, though, to have gone through the fire like that?

01:19:44.000 I needed that.

01:19:45.000 Because you were just different guys.

01:19:46.000 I needed to know what I was made of.

01:19:48.000 Right.

01:19:48.000 Being a guy who's overweight, insecure, all these things, never going on hikes.

01:19:55.000 My dad passed away when I was younger.

01:19:58.000 Like, very young.

01:19:59.000 And so I never had my dad to encourage me to go throw a ball or anything, play sports, or be a man, be a boy, be a, you know, just be.

01:20:07.000 I was always, like, kind of sheltered by my mom.

01:20:10.000 And she was more, like, protective, like, ah, don't go do that.

01:20:13.000 And then she finally learned to just, like, set me free.

01:20:16.000 But I needed to know what I was made of, man.

01:20:19.000 I needed to know what I was made of in...

01:20:24.000 In the realm of men.

01:20:26.000 Fighting.

01:20:27.000 Whatever it took.

01:20:28.000 Blood.

01:20:29.000 Tears.

01:20:30.000 Sweat.

01:20:30.000 The same thing they say.

01:20:31.000 I didn't know what that was like.

01:20:33.000 I never got a taste of it.

01:20:34.000 So going through it in a real way.

01:20:36.000 Actually getting my ass beat and having to find my way out of it.

01:20:40.000 Can't run from it.

01:20:42.000 Still, it's people that cared about me too.

01:20:44.000 It was just a great thing to have.

01:20:47.000 Now, I enjoy it.

01:20:49.000 I enjoy a really good hard fight.

01:20:52.000 You know, there's something about it.

01:20:54.000 Well, you're enjoying your progress, too.

01:20:57.000 Your change of who you are as a person.

01:20:59.000 You're strengthening.

01:21:00.000 How far into your training were you like 100% all-in committed like that?

01:21:10.000 I think it was after my loss to Tyson Pedro, which was my second fight in the UFC. Before, everything was still kind of very fun and games, and I was like, oh, I get to travel, go to Australia, fight in Australia.

01:21:26.000 So it was a big shock to be in the UFC, especially not even expecting to be there within just a few years.

01:21:33.000 So after losing that fight is when I met my friend and at the time my strength and conditioning coach Lorenzo.

01:21:40.000 And he had been through like pararescue school and things like that.

01:21:45.000 So he helped me to just develop this mentality of like how far will your mind take you?

01:21:51.000 How big is your will?

01:21:54.000 And when training with him and doing kind of like pararescue survival training for conditioning...

01:22:03.000 That was a point where I started to say, okay, I'm going to take this full on.

01:22:09.000 I know I can fight hard, but now I know how far my will can go in the face of the elements and everything.

01:22:18.000 So putting those two together, going after it, and then the fight I took after that was Daniel Jolly.

01:22:24.000 And then I ended that in the first round with a knee, and then I fought Paul Craig in Scotland.

01:22:29.000 And I had this same mentality.

01:22:31.000 Like, I'm going forward.

01:22:31.000 I'm getting better.

01:22:32.000 I'm going to grow stronger, better, harder.

01:22:34.000 Like, everything.

01:22:36.000 And...

01:22:37.000 Then the fight to the Polish guy, Michael Alexejuk.

01:22:42.000 Have you seen him lately?

01:22:44.000 No.

01:22:44.000 He just beat like John Vellante and I forgot his last fight.

01:22:49.000 Oh, that's right.

01:22:50.000 Yeah, it was a body shot.

01:22:51.000 I lost to him, but then it got turned into a no contest.

01:22:56.000 So after that was a Gokan Saki fight.

01:22:59.000 So it's been...

01:23:01.000 How did he get turned into a no contest?

01:23:03.000 Did he test positive?

01:23:04.000 Yeah, I tested positive.

01:23:05.000 But he was also a last-minute fight.

01:23:12.000 I always fuck his name up.

01:23:14.000 Michael Oleksijuk.

01:23:16.000 Yeah, it's a rough one.

01:23:18.000 At the weigh-ins, I always butcher it.

01:23:21.000 Terrible.

01:23:22.000 But some of those fucking names.

01:23:23.000 Michael Oleksijuk.

01:23:25.000 Yeah.

01:23:27.000 Yeah, so...

01:23:28.000 It's been like three or four years, man.

01:23:30.000 And how many fights do you have professionally?

01:23:33.000 Uh...

01:23:34.000 Dang, what's my record?

01:23:35.000 Eight and three?

01:23:36.000 Eight, three and one?

01:23:38.000 That's funny that you don't really know your record.

01:23:41.000 I don't remember.

01:23:42.000 8-3-1.

01:23:43.000 I think it's 8-3-1.

01:23:45.000 Wow.

01:23:45.000 Yeah.

01:23:46.000 It's amazing that you've been fighting for a relatively short period of time and have achieved some pretty fucking spectacular results, man.

01:23:56.000 Do you have anybody in your past that was into martial arts?

01:23:59.000 Is it in the family?

01:24:01.000 My brothers were both just athletes in school, and they were...

01:24:08.000 Always getting in fights and stuff at school.

01:24:10.000 Like I said, I was non-confrontational.

01:24:11.000 So they were the biggest fighters to me growing up.

01:24:14.000 Are they stunned that you're a fighter now?

01:24:15.000 No.

01:24:16.000 My other brother is actually a fighter too.

01:24:19.000 He fought for the World Series of Fighting 125 belt and the Contender Series, things like that.

01:24:25.000 He's still fighting, still training.

01:24:27.000 And then my oldest brother, he doesn't fight.

01:24:31.000 He used to play college football and stuff.

01:24:33.000 Yeah, so I got one brother.

01:24:34.000 So it's in the family a little bit, at least.

01:24:36.000 A little bit.

01:24:36.000 What do you think about the World Series of Fighting, which became the Professional Fighting League?

01:24:41.000 Yeah, and they're giving away a million dollars to everybody who wins whatever their respected weight class is, right?

01:24:46.000 Yeah, and then you fight two times in one night.

01:24:48.000 Yeah.

01:24:49.000 What do you think of that?

01:24:50.000 It sounds kind of cool, but I don't know.

01:24:51.000 Two times in one night, I don't like.

01:24:52.000 Two times in one night sucks, but I don't know if they get paid to show up, or it's like you just fight, and then hopefully you get that meal.

01:24:59.000 I don't want to see a guy who goes through a three-round war fight a guy who knocked a guy out in 10 seconds.

01:25:06.000 Yeah.

01:25:06.000 Because that can happen.

01:25:07.000 It does happen.

01:25:08.000 It seems so unfair.

01:25:10.000 Did you see...

01:25:11.000 I thought Vinny Magalich was going to take it that last one.

01:25:13.000 I did, too.

01:25:14.000 Because I remember seeing it live.

01:25:15.000 He's really coming to his own.

01:25:16.000 His striking has caught up with a lot of his grappling.

01:25:18.000 Oh, yeah.

01:25:19.000 And he's fantastic off of his back.

01:25:21.000 That guy's dangerous.

01:25:21.000 Very dangerous.

01:25:22.000 I've never seen a guy that big, that flexible.

01:25:25.000 He can do everything when it comes to jiu-jitsu.

01:25:27.000 Do you ever see one of the flying armbar pedipano?

01:25:29.000 Nope.

01:25:30.000 It's crazy.

01:25:31.000 Who the fuck does that?

01:25:32.000 Nope.

01:25:32.000 I was at that match, the Metamorris, I think it was.

01:25:36.000 Was it Metamorris when he grappled Keenan?

01:25:41.000 Was that Metamoros?

01:25:42.000 Like a few years back, maybe like four or five years.

01:25:44.000 Yeah.

01:25:45.000 It could have been Metamoros or EBI. I forget all the Metamoros matchups.

01:25:48.000 They had some good ones, but I forget all the matchups.

01:25:50.000 Yeah.

01:25:50.000 Those are good events, huh?

01:25:51.000 Yes.

01:25:52.000 No more, huh?

01:25:53.000 I wish there was more of those, man.

01:25:54.000 I mean, I'm happy Eddie Bravo's sort of taking over that space with the EBI and Combat Jiu-Jitsu now.

01:26:01.000 Have you seen that?

01:26:01.000 With the slaps, right?

01:26:02.000 Yeah, what do you think of that?

01:26:03.000 It's so sick, man.

01:26:04.000 It's so sick.

01:26:05.000 It's a great idea, right?

01:26:06.000 It's nice.

01:26:07.000 It's a great idea.

01:26:07.000 Sometimes you might be holding on, but that's slap.

01:26:10.000 That might cause a guy to let go of something.

01:26:12.000 Changes the game.

01:26:13.000 Things aren't available anymore.

01:26:15.000 You can't just allow yourself.

01:26:16.000 It's just too hard.

01:26:20.000 Somebody stopped somebody.

01:26:22.000 Wagner Rocha stopped somebody.

01:26:24.000 Got on top, mounted him, and just blasted him with palms to the head.

01:26:27.000 It was pretty rough, man.

01:26:29.000 It's almost like MMA. Look at that.

01:26:32.000 I mean, you can do ground and pounding.

01:26:33.000 We learned from Bas Rutten way back in the Pancrase days.

01:26:36.000 Do you remember those days?

01:26:38.000 Yeah.

01:26:38.000 Bas Rutten figured out how to pull his hand back way further than other people.

01:26:43.000 And Bas Rutten would smash guys with palm strikes.

01:26:47.000 He would throw them like uppercuts and hooks.

01:26:49.000 Like he wasn't just like slapping you.

01:26:52.000 Yeah.

01:26:53.000 This is some really high level jujitsu too, with smacks.

01:26:56.000 Look at, oh my.

01:26:58.000 And you know that guy's not used to getting slapped, man.

01:27:01.000 No, not by a guy with a nasty guard like Wagner Rocha.

01:27:04.000 Oh!

01:27:04.000 He wants to tap right there.

01:27:06.000 His nose is getting fucked up.

01:27:07.000 Oh my goodness.

01:27:09.000 Can you tap from the slap?

01:27:10.000 Yeah, you can tap.

01:27:11.000 Oh.

01:27:12.000 Yeah, he's getting beat up.

01:27:13.000 The referee's just going to stop it.

01:27:15.000 Mike Beltran's seen enough.

01:27:16.000 See, once he starts dropping those palms down.

01:27:19.000 Poha!

01:27:20.000 Yeah, poha!

01:27:22.000 Look at that.

01:27:23.000 Bat.

01:27:23.000 Forehead.

01:27:24.000 Bat.

01:27:24.000 It's a reality check.

01:27:26.000 It's a reality check about how dangerous this position is.

01:27:29.000 You can't really just sit and let a guy mount you.

01:27:33.000 You have to do something desperate to get out of that.

01:27:36.000 But in jiu-jitsu, if the guy's just mounting you, you can kind of chill out.

01:27:39.000 Yeah, you're chilling out, figuring out how to escape a leg or something like that.

01:27:42.000 Not in that shit.

01:27:43.000 Combat jiu-jitsu, you've got to get the fuck out of there.

01:27:45.000 That's a terrible place to be.

01:27:47.000 Yeah, same thing with MMA, right?

01:27:49.000 Being mounted sucks, especially when you're tired.

01:27:51.000 Yeah.

01:27:52.000 Well, the difference between MMA grappling and regular grappling, too, used to always be, one of the big ones, at least I should say, was leg locks.

01:27:59.000 They thought you really couldn't get away with leg locks as much in MMA, because as you're going for the legs, you have two arms committed to the legs, someone's just going to punch you in the face, and you don't have defense for it.

01:28:08.000 But now you're seeing, when guys like Iminari burst on the scene and started ripping guys' knees apart, you see how effective that is, and then Paul Harris.

01:28:16.000 Are you a leg locker?

01:28:17.000 No, no.

01:28:18.000 You don't like Legolas?

01:28:19.000 I'm scared of it.

01:28:19.000 They're scary, huh?

01:28:21.000 They're so infatuated.

01:28:22.000 I've had three knee operations and two reconstructions.

01:28:25.000 Ah.

01:28:25.000 But do you like to watch?

01:28:27.000 Oh, yeah.

01:28:27.000 Yeah, I like John Donaher.

01:28:29.000 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:28:29.000 Dude, he's so interesting.

01:28:31.000 Gordon Ryan.

01:28:32.000 Yeah.

01:28:34.000 Yeah, I remember just kind of looking into a little bit of those.

01:28:36.000 Eddie Cummings.

01:28:37.000 Yeah, those guys are savages.

01:28:38.000 Gary Tonin.

01:28:39.000 They're fucking people's legs up.

01:28:41.000 And then Craig Jones and all these other guys that are coming from all over the world that are leg lock specialists now.

01:28:48.000 They all have these complex leg lock systems now.

01:28:50.000 Yeah.

01:28:51.000 It's a totally different thing.

01:28:52.000 It scares the shit.

01:28:53.000 You fuck up.

01:28:54.000 You go zig when you should have zagged.

01:28:56.000 Like when Ryan Hall fought BJ Penn.

01:28:58.000 Yeah, right.

01:28:58.000 And he caught him in that.

01:28:59.000 I was like, no, no, not that way.

01:29:01.000 I got that.

01:29:02.000 Yeah, he just tried to get out.

01:29:03.000 He tried to get out, and Ryan Hall just locked it up.

01:29:06.000 Oh, I just imagine the feeling right now.

01:29:08.000 I always tap early.

01:29:09.000 Well, once that stuff gets chewed up inside there, that's the problem.

01:29:14.000 I mean, some people could just take it, but once you start ripping meniscus apart and cartilage apart, once that stuff starts happening, ligaments start getting stretched out and rip a little bit, and they're always going to be wiggly.

01:29:25.000 So, I mean, even Gordon Ryan just ripped his fucking leg apart.

01:29:29.000 Ugh.

01:29:29.000 Did he really?

01:29:29.000 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:29:30.000 He just had surgery.

01:29:31.000 I think he did it in an actual grappling match, though.

01:29:34.000 I think his leg moved weird, and it popped his knee apart.

01:29:38.000 But the guy had a hold on it?

01:29:39.000 I don't think so.

01:29:40.000 No?

01:29:40.000 No, I think it was in a scramble.

01:29:42.000 I think it came apart in a scramble.

01:29:44.000 But there's a lot of those leg lock experts right now that scare the shit out.

01:29:49.000 And everything came from Dean Lister, which is crazy.

01:29:51.000 Dean Lister.

01:29:52.000 Do you know the story?

01:29:53.000 No.

01:29:53.000 John Donahar was talking to Dean Lister.

01:29:55.000 And Dean Lister was talking about leg locks, and John Donahar said something, he inquired about why you do leg locks.

01:30:01.000 And he goes, why would you ignore 50% of the body?

01:30:05.000 And John Donahar, being that fucking crazy wizard that he is, was like, why would you?

01:30:10.000 Why would you?

01:30:11.000 There's all these memes.

01:30:12.000 There's a fucking hilarious meme of John Donaher in bed next to a woman, and it says, why would you ignore 50% of the body?

01:30:20.000 Oh, man.

01:30:21.000 Yeah.

01:30:22.000 I can imagine that competition.

01:30:23.000 Yeah.

01:30:25.000 Well, Donahue's a guy who understands things.

01:30:29.000 He sees them on a very complex level.

01:30:32.000 He understands all the various possible exchanges and what's the best way to stop the defense, push the offense, control the situation.

01:30:40.000 What is the ultimate control position I have to get to?

01:30:43.000 Do I have to get on the inside?

01:30:44.000 Do I grab it this way?

01:30:45.000 Do I grab it that way?

01:30:47.000 Once they started really experimenting and putting it together and putting it into a system, and you see how these guys, who have only been doing jiu-jitsu for a few years, like Nicky Ryan and Gordon Ryan, they start tapping all these really legit guys.

01:30:59.000 They're like, what the fuck is happening?

01:31:01.000 What are they doing over there?

01:31:02.000 He's got a Kimura system, headlock system, everything.

01:31:05.000 I think that helps a lot, just when it comes to training, learning things in systems.

01:31:09.000 You know what I mean?

01:31:10.000 I think 10th Planet has their own type of system, right?

01:31:13.000 Oh, for sure.

01:31:13.000 And it helps.

01:31:14.000 It definitely helps.

01:31:16.000 Yeah.

01:31:17.000 Same system, right?

01:31:18.000 Yeah, all systems help, man.

01:31:20.000 And then fighters devise their own system really often.

01:31:24.000 They have their own entries and their own ways of defending things.

01:31:27.000 But the leg lock game is so unexpected.

01:31:30.000 Because I always thought they were a good technique if you can get it, but it's not that high percentage in MMA. That was kind of how I felt.

01:31:37.000 You didn't see too many of them.

01:31:38.000 I don't know why.

01:31:41.000 We had a few guys that were really good in the early days, like Oleg Taktarov and some other guys who were really good, but we didn't have the level that you have like a Paul Harris.

01:31:52.000 Diving on things, transitioning from one thing to the next, and then locking you up in a position where you better tap quick, because if you don't, you're going to be screaming.

01:31:59.000 Do you think a lot of the times it's those guys the other guys' fault, or does he really just hold too long?

01:32:04.000 He definitely holds too long.

01:32:05.000 He has.

01:32:06.000 There's one fight from Brazil where it's crazy.

01:32:08.000 He's just not letting go.

01:32:10.000 He's just holding on to something.

01:32:12.000 I forget what it was, but he was not letting go.

01:32:13.000 And they were trying to separate him, and he was still hanging on to it.

01:32:16.000 I think he came from a really, really bad childhood.

01:32:20.000 And he's talked about it in depth, about growing up on a farm and being forced to eat pig slop when he was a little boy.

01:32:27.000 That cut that he has on his chest, that big scar, he had sealed that up with glue.

01:32:33.000 Yeah, like crazy shit.

01:32:35.000 Actually, I've met him before a few times through some friends, and he seems like a cool guy.

01:32:42.000 Yeah, he does.

01:32:43.000 Genuine.

01:32:44.000 I just think when he's in competition, man, he just doesn't want to let it go.

01:32:50.000 And they make him let it go, and he tried, even though he knew that they were going to get mad at him if he didn't let go, still didn't quite let go.

01:32:58.000 Yeah.

01:32:58.000 And they're like, get the fuck out of here.

01:33:00.000 They kicked him out of the UFC, the first guy ever to get kicked out of the UFC for holding on to submissions.

01:33:04.000 Oh, he got kicked out?

01:33:05.000 Yeah.

01:33:06.000 Oh, okay.

01:33:06.000 Do you know who he held it against?

01:33:08.000 I don't know, but I want to make sure that that's true.

01:33:11.000 I think it is.

01:33:12.000 That Husamar Paul Harris was the first guy to ever get kicked out of the UFC. And I think the last one they got kicked out for was like, any normal person wouldn't even have gotten in trouble for that one.

01:33:21.000 Yeah.

01:33:21.000 It was like normal.

01:33:23.000 I was like, maybe a little bit too long, but it was on that borderline edge.

01:33:26.000 But because it was him, people were like, enough.

01:33:30.000 You know?

01:33:31.000 Is that what it was?

01:33:33.000 It wasn't in the UFC, but it was a controversial submission victory over Jake Shields at the World Series of Fighting.

01:33:39.000 Ah, yeah.

01:33:40.000 Jake Shields, I think.

01:33:42.000 Yeah, but I think he did that, too.

01:33:44.000 But that was a Kimura.

01:33:46.000 Yeah, that's right.

01:33:47.000 But I think before that, he got kicked out of the UFC. Yeah.

01:33:52.000 Released in 2013. Oh, Mike Pierce had a...

01:33:55.000 Yes.

01:33:56.000 Referee intervened.

01:33:58.000 That's right.

01:33:58.000 Heel hook.

01:33:59.000 There you go.

01:33:59.000 Yep.

01:33:59.000 So that's what it was.

01:34:00.000 Yeah.

01:34:02.000 Okay.

01:34:03.000 That's what it was.

01:34:03.000 He was released after holding onto a heel hook of Mike Pierce in 2013. Yeah.

01:34:08.000 But look, man.

01:34:10.000 That guy was particularly scary when he fought because he was so strong and his body was so well designed for heel hooks.

01:34:18.000 Oh, right.

01:34:18.000 He just could grab ahold of you and rip your shit apart, man.

01:34:22.000 Look at that.

01:34:23.000 Look at the size of him!

01:34:23.000 Oh, my God.

01:34:24.000 Bro!

01:34:25.000 Look at this.

01:34:26.000 Now, look what he does here.

01:34:27.000 See, he grabs a hold of it.

01:34:29.000 Mike Pierce is fucked.

01:34:30.000 He's tapping, he's tapping, he's tapping, he's tapping.

01:34:33.000 He's still holding, he's still holding.

01:34:34.000 But that's all in slow motion.

01:34:36.000 But it looked to me like he was still ripping the knee apart.

01:34:39.000 Even though he knew that the guy had tapped.

01:34:41.000 He had it.

01:34:42.000 He knew he had it.

01:34:43.000 He's just punishing that guy.

01:34:45.000 You know, he makes it scarier for other people, and he's probably used to doing it, you know?

01:34:49.000 He had this psychological block.

01:34:51.000 They all say that he's like a really, really nice guy.

01:34:54.000 Yeah.

01:34:54.000 You just become that guy that nobody wants to fight.

01:34:56.000 Fucking animal, man.

01:34:58.000 You can't make nobody.

01:34:59.000 But I think in the Jake Shields fight, there was other shit that was happening, too.

01:35:01.000 I think there was eye pokes.

01:35:03.000 I'm pretty sure.

01:35:04.000 Just a dirty fight.

01:35:07.000 What do you hear?

01:35:09.000 Yeah.

01:35:12.000 What are we hearing?

01:35:14.000 Is something bleeding through into our microphones?

01:35:16.000 I've heard this before.

01:35:17.000 I've been trying to catch what it was.

01:35:18.000 It's ghosts, bro!

01:35:19.000 I don't know what it's from.

01:35:20.000 It's some interference.

01:35:22.000 I see dead people.

01:35:24.000 This is like...

01:35:25.000 So, I don't know if the people can hear it.

01:35:27.000 Can the people hear it?

01:35:29.000 No, it was this.

01:35:30.000 What is it?

01:35:31.000 What is it?

01:35:32.000 It's the fight.

01:35:32.000 I pulled up the fight.

01:35:34.000 Oh, you left the fight, huh?

01:35:36.000 No, it's very low.

01:35:37.000 It's low level.

01:35:38.000 We just debunked Ghost, bro.

01:35:41.000 Which fight was it that you pulled up?

01:35:43.000 That fight that took, you know.

01:35:45.000 Yeah.

01:35:46.000 Oh, when he ripped that guy's knee apart.

01:35:47.000 Yeah.

01:35:48.000 Yeah, he was the first guy to be super scary in an elite, modern level with heel hooks.

01:35:53.000 Where did he start off?

01:35:55.000 Do you know what promotion?

01:35:56.000 Well, he's a Minotauro guy.

01:35:57.000 Okay, yeah, he is a Minotauro guy.

01:35:58.000 So he came out of Brazil.

01:36:00.000 Probably Cage Warriors?

01:36:01.000 I don't know, man.

01:36:03.000 I don't know what he was fighting in in Brazil.

01:36:06.000 I don't remember seeing it.

01:36:06.000 Cage Warriors is the UK. Is it?

01:36:09.000 Yeah.

01:36:09.000 That's where Anderson came from.

01:36:11.000 Well, Anderson, when he made the jump from Pride, he did Cage Warriors for a while and then came over to the UFC. Yeah.

01:36:16.000 And I think that's when he started working with the Nogueras, when he started fighting cage fighters.

01:36:21.000 Oh, so he fought in a bunch of Fury FCs, fought in a bunch of stuff.

01:36:25.000 Storm Samurai 12. Storm Samurai 12. I want a t-shirt for Storm Samurai 12. Damn.

01:36:35.000 Throwback.

01:36:36.000 Yeah.

01:36:37.000 Real throwback.

01:36:38.000 Yeah.

01:36:39.000 He had a great...

01:36:41.000 It goes to show you how good Gary Tonin is as a submission grappler too because they had a great submission grappling match.

01:36:47.000 Go back to his record there because I think that was listed there.

01:36:50.000 I think it turned out in a draw and Gary Tonin is so much smaller than him.

01:36:56.000 Draw, yeah.

01:36:56.000 Gary Tonin.

01:36:57.000 Oh yeah, that was recent.

01:37:00.000 Was that really 2016?

01:37:03.000 I think it was.

01:37:04.000 Because I remember...

01:37:05.000 No, that was Craig Jones.

01:37:07.000 2018 was Craig Jones.

01:37:09.000 Yeah, because I remember someone was posting pictures about how he looks now.

01:37:13.000 He's got a fade and this big mustache now and he's all jacked up again.

01:37:17.000 He looks like he's a thousand pounds.

01:37:19.000 Yeah, for sure.

01:37:20.000 He looks like he's running through walls.

01:37:21.000 Yeah.

01:37:22.000 Is he fighting MMA anymore, or is he just doing grappling?

01:37:25.000 I think he might just be doing grappling.

01:37:27.000 I haven't heard any MMA news.

01:37:29.000 There's something extra scary about a guy who'll fuck your knee up.

01:37:32.000 Yeah.

01:37:32.000 You know?

01:37:33.000 What's up?

01:37:34.000 Look at the size of him now.

01:37:35.000 Look at that.

01:37:35.000 Whoa, son.

01:37:36.000 He's with Hickey Monstro.

01:37:38.000 Oh, son.

01:37:40.000 Look at that arm.

01:37:42.000 I do not want to get my heel caught in that...

01:37:46.000 Armpit.

01:37:47.000 Yeah.

01:37:47.000 Look at that picture above where he's screaming.

01:37:50.000 Look at that picture.

01:37:51.000 What in the fuck, man?

01:37:54.000 No way.

01:37:55.000 Look at Craig Jones just chilling.

01:37:57.000 That is a body designed to rip your legs apart.

01:38:01.000 Do you know the heel hook game?

01:38:04.000 Not enough to really play it, but I spent a little bit of time picking the brains of people who are good.

01:38:11.000 Yeah.

01:38:12.000 I like it.

01:38:13.000 I enjoy it.

01:38:14.000 I think I can actually get pretty good at it.

01:38:18.000 The basics of it seems pretty simple.

01:38:20.000 It's just a matter of getting comfortable there.

01:38:23.000 I feel like my knees are just...

01:38:24.000 I don't want to risk it.

01:38:27.000 Let's play this game a little bit.

01:38:30.000 But if I find a partner that's not an asshole and just really wants to learn together or whatever, then I'll do it.

01:38:39.000 I'll go after it.

01:38:39.000 Do you ever see yourself doing jiu-jitsu matches or anything like that?

01:38:42.000 Yeah, I've only done maybe three in my life.

01:38:45.000 Yeah?

01:38:45.000 Yeah, I did one.

01:38:47.000 My last jiu-jitsu competition was probably two years ago, two and a half years ago.

01:38:53.000 Naga.

01:38:54.000 Just like, it was random.

01:38:56.000 Just like a random, like, oh, okay, I'll do Naga today.

01:38:58.000 Well, there are some MMA fighters that are at a high enough level of grappling that they can compete against really elite grapplers in jiu-jitsu matches.

01:39:08.000 You know, like Chad Mendes, remember he had that, That match with Jeff...

01:39:16.000 Fuck, why am I blanking on his name?

01:39:19.000 Jeff Glover.

01:39:20.000 Jeff Glover.

01:39:20.000 Really?

01:39:21.000 I didn't know that.

01:39:22.000 Yeah, I think he choked him out.

01:39:24.000 Chad Mendes choked out Jeff Glover.

01:39:26.000 I think he took his back and tapped him.

01:39:30.000 I think they were using the Eddie Bravo invitational rules.

01:39:38.000 Make sure that's true.

01:39:40.000 Which you start on someone's back in overtime.

01:39:43.000 You go to a certain distance.

01:39:45.000 Is that Chael Sonnen's?

01:39:47.000 It is.

01:39:47.000 It's Chael Sonnen's organization.

01:39:49.000 In which case, I'm pretty sure they use the EBI rules.

01:39:54.000 So he got his back through sort of one of those overtime positions.

01:40:00.000 But he still tapped him.

01:40:01.000 And the other one is Uriah Faber.

01:40:03.000 Uriah Faber's pretty fucking elite.

01:40:05.000 Pretty fucking elite.

01:40:07.000 Jeff Glover's an animal.

01:40:09.000 Oh my god.

01:40:09.000 I love that guy.

01:40:10.000 Super, super technical.

01:40:11.000 You know?

01:40:13.000 And very dangerous.

01:40:14.000 And relaxed, right?

01:40:16.000 Big time stoner.

01:40:18.000 Yeah.

01:40:19.000 So they must have set him up on his back.

01:40:23.000 This doesn't show it.

01:40:24.000 It just shows him have the back.

01:40:25.000 Man, that's a hell of a fucking rear naked right there.

01:40:28.000 That works all day on everybody.

01:40:29.000 Even a Jeff Glover.

01:40:31.000 Wow.

01:40:31.000 And that's why jiu-jitsu works.

01:40:33.000 If you're a lead, it'll work.

01:40:35.000 Save your ass.

01:40:36.000 Yeah.

01:40:37.000 Three by overtime submission.

01:40:39.000 So we're correct.

01:40:40.000 Yeah.

01:40:42.000 Yeah.

01:40:43.000 So there's a few guys, but it's really hard to be the master of everything, right?

01:40:47.000 Yeah, for sure.

01:40:48.000 So for you, is there a balance where you're like, am I spending enough time grappling?

01:40:51.000 Am I spending enough time striking?

01:40:53.000 Do you ever, like, wonder what the correct formula is, or do you tinker with it at all?

01:41:02.000 I have wondered, and I always wonder, but I can't, like...

01:41:09.000 So...

01:41:11.000 A long time ago, maybe a few years ago, Anderson told me, listen, you need jiu-jitsu.

01:41:18.000 You need it.

01:41:19.000 He's like, it saved my life.

01:41:21.000 I love to strike too, but when I learned jiu-jitsu, it changed my life.

01:41:25.000 You need to learn it.

01:41:26.000 Put on a gi.

01:41:27.000 Let's roll.

01:41:28.000 You're right there in the living room.

01:41:29.000 I was just like, okay.

01:41:32.000 One of the things that I learned from him is just, he's like, Learn the basic stuff.

01:41:39.000 Like, learn the basic stuff.

01:41:41.000 Get really good at it.

01:41:42.000 And then, like, use it to save yourself.

01:41:47.000 And you'll end up growing.

01:41:49.000 He's like, just keep training jiu-jitsu.

01:41:51.000 You don't need this whole crazy secret system at the moment.

01:41:55.000 Just make sure that you're training jiu-jitsu and continue to learn jiu-jitsu.

01:41:59.000 You know, like...

01:42:02.000 So, that's kind of my takeaway from the conversation.

01:42:04.000 So, I just make sure that when I'm training, at least I'm doing jujitsu.

01:42:09.000 You know, like, I focus on it, make sure that I'm getting better, make sure that I'm going with guys that are way better than me.

01:42:16.000 So, I'm always getting my ass kicked, but at least I'm always going with guys that are better than me all the time.

01:42:24.000 I enjoy it, but I'm a striker.

01:42:26.000 That's it.

01:42:27.000 I enjoy it.

01:42:28.000 I know that I need it.

01:42:29.000 It's my job.

01:42:30.000 I know that it can get dangerous if I go against a guy who's a high-level jiu-jitsu.

01:42:35.000 I know that.

01:42:36.000 I understand that.

01:42:38.000 And I'm very aware of it every time that I train.

01:42:43.000 So I make sure that I do my job and I go to jiu-jitsu class, but I'm a striker and I'm always going to be focused on...

01:42:49.000 That's always going to be my go-to.

01:42:52.000 Anybody, whether it's a striker or a grappler, I don't care.

01:42:56.000 I'm going to train striking and I'm going to train jiu-jitsu too, but I'm going to my striking, always.

01:43:01.000 Do you think that that is like you're letting everybody know?

01:43:04.000 Are you trying to trick people and then next fight you're going to shoot on folks?

01:43:09.000 I don't need to shoot.

01:43:10.000 I'll shoot if I need to.

01:43:11.000 If I'm getting my ass kicked, then I need to take a desperation shot.

01:43:15.000 But you would rather just let them know that you're coming out striking.

01:43:19.000 I want to strike.

01:43:21.000 I believe you do, and you're very good at it.

01:43:23.000 But one of the things that's interesting about real high-level MMA, when you look at the guys who have been legendarily successful, like George St. Pierre or Mighty Mouse, two great examples, one of the things is you never knew what the fuck they were going to do to you.

01:43:35.000 Mm-hmm.

01:43:36.000 And that overloading the mind with possibilities is a part of their success.

01:43:40.000 It's like, how much of a part?

01:43:41.000 It's a good question.

01:43:42.000 Do you think that there's an argument for using the skills that you have, which are quite spectacular, with that sort of style?

01:43:51.000 Sort of style that incorporates way more takedowns, way more takedown attempts, way more feints, just different combinations of things so you never know what the fuck is happening at any given time.

01:44:01.000 Or do you think that it's better To just be the best striker you can, and that'll be enough.

01:44:06.000 You stop those takedowns, that'll be enough.

01:44:09.000 For me?

01:44:10.000 Or just in general?

01:44:11.000 For you.

01:44:14.000 I think for me, it would be the best to just be the best striker.

01:44:22.000 Just because you enjoy it that much more.

01:44:23.000 I enjoy it that much more.

01:44:30.000 I enjoy that much more.

01:44:31.000 I still have a lot to learn, a lot to grow, so it's always going to get better.

01:44:35.000 I don't think that's going to get bad.

01:44:38.000 I'm still learning a lot, especially what you guys got to see a few weeks ago.

01:44:42.000 That's only the beginning.

01:44:44.000 Everything even before that was...

01:44:48.000 Non-existent compared to the type of training that I've been doing.

01:44:51.000 So I'm really excited.

01:44:53.000 So I'm like, yeah.

01:44:54.000 Muay Thai is a lot more than just punch, kicks, and elbows.

01:44:57.000 And that's all the striking.

01:45:01.000 It's a mind game.

01:45:02.000 So you're just so infatuated by it right now.

01:45:04.000 You just want to focus on it 100%.

01:45:05.000 Yeah.

01:45:07.000 There's guys like...

01:45:10.000 Think about Michael Vindenpage, right?

01:45:13.000 Before he fought Paul Daly.

01:45:16.000 I'm sure that guy trains a lot of grappling as well.

01:45:19.000 And it shows if he gets in positions, he's knocked out guys from weird positions.

01:45:23.000 But when people watch him fight, they want to see...

01:45:27.000 They trust in his stand-up.

01:45:28.000 They're like, oh, this guy's going to do some crazy stuff.

01:45:30.000 And I kind of want to be able to do the same thing.

01:45:34.000 Not crazy, like, you know, worldly stuff, but when people watch me fight, they know what to expect, and that's just like bulletproof striking, you know?

01:45:46.000 Yeah, that fight was very unexpected.

01:45:50.000 The way Paul Daly decided to take him down.

01:45:52.000 I was pretty stunned.

01:45:53.000 I didn't think we were going to see that.

01:45:55.000 Paul Daly is so dangerous.

01:45:57.000 His fucking left hook is one of the best in all of the business.

01:46:00.000 Left hand, period.

01:46:02.000 Any way he throws it.

01:46:02.000 Both of them knew what they were going up against, though.

01:46:06.000 Even behind the shit talk, they knew it was a tough fight for both of them.

01:46:10.000 It was, but it was interesting to me watching Paige use his distance and that crazy karate point style and that, you know...

01:46:20.000 He had to really look out for that stuff.

01:46:23.000 I mean, he had to make sure that he wasn't getting dinged by that stuff.

01:46:26.000 When he's coming in with a...

01:46:28.000 Because Venom throws all this wild stuff.

01:46:31.000 Almost like a fencer dives in on you and pops you.

01:46:35.000 And you could tell Paul Daly was really having a hard time finding that range.

01:46:41.000 Yeah, it's harder to fight against guys that are long and know how to use their body, like athletically.

01:46:49.000 Is he fighting Douglas Lima next?

01:46:51.000 Is that what's happening over in Bellator?

01:46:53.000 I remember seeing that Douglas Lima had a fight, but I don't remember who the opponent was.

01:46:57.000 Who's Michael Venom Page fighting?

01:46:58.000 Find out that.

01:46:59.000 He's spectacular though, man.

01:47:01.000 Right?

01:47:01.000 The knee that he landed on Cyborgs.

01:47:03.000 Holy shit.

01:47:03.000 He caved the man's head in.

01:47:05.000 Skull.

01:47:05.000 We've never seen that.

01:47:07.000 We've never seen that.

01:47:08.000 The x-rays are just...

01:47:08.000 Insane.

01:47:09.000 Like he got hit with a meteor.

01:47:10.000 Imagine the pain.

01:47:12.000 Imagine, man.

01:47:13.000 And he was saying, I'll be fighting again in four months.

01:47:17.000 And they were like, bro.

01:47:19.000 I met that guy in Brazil.

01:47:21.000 He's a tough man.

01:47:22.000 Yeah, he's tough.

01:47:22.000 He's been around, man.

01:47:24.000 That's why when you see a guy like that cover his face and then fall down like that.

01:47:27.000 Oh, it is.

01:47:28.000 Chandler versus Pitbull.

01:47:30.000 Lima versus MVP. That's it.

01:47:33.000 Douglas Lima's no joke.

01:47:34.000 May 11th.

01:47:35.000 He's no joke.

01:47:36.000 That's a dangerous man, Lima.

01:47:38.000 Yeah, I'm tuning in.

01:47:39.000 He's a fucking enormous welterweight, too.

01:47:42.000 Lima, he's a big fella.

01:47:43.000 I've never seen him in person.

01:47:44.000 He's a big frame fella for 170. Woo!

01:47:48.000 Cuts a lot of weight, but he's so powerful when he gets in there.

01:47:51.000 Dangerous fucking striker.

01:47:53.000 Lima, he's for real.

01:47:55.000 That, to me, is as interesting, if not more interesting, than the Paul Daly fight.

01:47:58.000 I want to see what happens.

01:48:00.000 Lima's a little different, man.

01:48:01.000 He's not going to trash talk a lot.

01:48:04.000 He knows he's a dangerous guy.

01:48:06.000 So does Michael.

01:48:06.000 It's going to be a good one.

01:48:07.000 It's a real good one.

01:48:09.000 Fights like that really legitimize Bellator because these are fights that could easily be a main event in the UFC. Talent-wise, unquestionably.

01:48:18.000 That fight, oof!

01:48:20.000 Venom Page, he's a real fucking hard pill to swallow, man.

01:48:25.000 Figure that guy out.

01:48:26.000 Who the fuck can you bring in a train that can move like him?

01:48:29.000 No one.

01:48:30.000 You can try, but you're not.

01:48:32.000 He doesn't even know how he's going to move.

01:48:34.000 I think that guy just puts on music and just whatever happens, happens.

01:48:39.000 Yeah, that's why this fight is so interesting because Lima is way more, has just a rock-solid traditional stance.

01:48:46.000 He moves real well.

01:48:50.000 Devastating power.

01:48:51.000 That's going to be a really good fight.

01:48:53.000 Where does Lima train?

01:48:54.000 Do you know?

01:48:55.000 That's a good question.

01:48:56.000 Where does Douglas Lima train?

01:48:59.000 Jamie's going to find that out for us.

01:49:01.000 I'm very happy that there's a bunch of good organizations like ONE and PFL now and Bellator.

01:49:08.000 It's great that fighters have options.

01:49:10.000 Super good.

01:49:13.000 A lot of times, too, I like to just watch whatever's going on.

01:49:18.000 You never know who you're going to come across.

01:49:20.000 Where is that?

01:49:21.000 Where is that?

01:49:22.000 American Top Team somewhere.

01:49:24.000 Is it?

01:49:25.000 Dude, that's terrifying.

01:49:28.000 Nasty combinations, man.

01:49:30.000 He's got ruthless leg kicks, too, man.

01:49:33.000 ATT where?

01:49:34.000 Which one?

01:49:35.000 There's a bunch of those, right?

01:49:37.000 I think so.

01:49:39.000 He might be ATT Florida.

01:49:40.000 I don't know.

01:49:41.000 Is he?

01:49:43.000 It didn't look like the Florida one, but ATT. How many ATTs are there?

01:49:48.000 I have no idea.

01:49:49.000 Is there a bunch?

01:49:51.000 I should know that.

01:49:52.000 I think I've only heard of maybe two or three.

01:49:55.000 Phuket Fight Club in, I guess, Thailand.

01:49:57.000 Oh, really?

01:49:58.000 In this article right here that just came out yesterday.

01:50:01.000 Phuket Fight Club.

01:50:03.000 Maybe you saw your fight.

01:50:04.000 It's like, fuck it.

01:50:05.000 I'm going to Thailand, too.

01:50:06.000 Bring everybody.

01:50:09.000 Everybody come.

01:50:10.000 Joe, when you're coming?

01:50:10.000 A Phuket fight club, huh?

01:50:12.000 Wow.

01:50:14.000 Says he's been a lot of places recently for this fight.

01:50:17.000 Says, honestly, nowadays my life is a camp, Lima stated.

01:50:21.000 It's been like six or seven months and I haven't stopped trying to improve.

01:50:24.000 For me, this is a lifestyle.

01:50:26.000 Yeah, the only thing that really bothers me, the only thing that bothers me, is that it's difficult to get a champion to fight a champion.

01:50:34.000 Like a champion from the UFC to fight a champion from one or to fight a champion.

01:50:38.000 What's up with that?

01:50:39.000 I think that would be good for everybody.

01:50:41.000 That'd be so sick.

01:50:42.000 Yeah, we should find out who the fuck, who's running shit.

01:50:45.000 Exactly.

01:50:47.000 Find out how to make that happen.

01:50:48.000 Or how also, how UFC fighters can...

01:50:53.000 Do, like, Muay Thai fights on the side.

01:50:55.000 Sure.

01:50:55.000 I would love that.

01:50:56.000 That would be hard for them to do, though, because you'd have to justify it.

01:50:59.000 Like, what if they got hurt, and they couldn't fight in a card, and then the UFC, like, loses an asset?

01:51:04.000 You know, they would think of it in terms of, like, a possible main event, like, player.

01:51:08.000 Like, if there's a guy who's top of the food chain, dude, and he says, I want to take one Muay Thai fight, and then he tears his MCL, and then six months later, still not ready to fight.

01:51:18.000 They should do it, like, if you're not, like, if you're the top 15, you can't do it.

01:51:24.000 Yeah, that's not a bad idea.

01:51:25.000 But if you're not even ranked, then...

01:51:28.000 Go ahead.

01:51:28.000 Go crazy.

01:51:29.000 It's going to be a while before...

01:51:31.000 They'll let you do a jiu-jitsu tournament, though, right?

01:51:33.000 Jiu-jitsu's fine.

01:51:34.000 That's fucking dangerous, too, though.

01:51:36.000 Yeah.

01:51:36.000 You can go against a guy like Paul Harris.

01:51:40.000 Yeah, but Shob did that.

01:51:41.000 I think it'd be cool, man.

01:51:42.000 Shob fought the other cyborg.

01:51:45.000 Which one?

01:51:47.000 Ricardo Abreu.

01:51:48.000 Oh, that guy.

01:51:49.000 That guy.

01:51:50.000 Yeah, he was one of my jiu-jitsu trainers at Vanderlei's.

01:51:53.000 He's a beast.

01:51:54.000 Yeah.

01:51:55.000 He's a big man.

01:51:57.000 Yeah, and Schaub just basically kept him away.

01:52:00.000 Just pushed him away from him.

01:52:02.000 Yeah.

01:52:02.000 Yeah, he didn't want to get his legs ripped apart.

01:52:04.000 I think I remember that.

01:52:05.000 That might have been the time where Schaub was over at Black House.

01:52:07.000 I think he was in a...

01:52:09.000 He was going to go do that.

01:52:10.000 Well, his point of view was like, look, I have to fight.

01:52:12.000 I'm not going to get my leg torn apart.

01:52:14.000 Take me down.

01:52:15.000 Do something.

01:52:15.000 You don't even do anything.

01:52:16.000 It's not worth it.

01:52:17.000 And then later, he did sit in his guard, but he couldn't do anything to him.

01:52:21.000 It was mostly defensive.

01:52:22.000 He basically shut his jiu-jitsu down, though.

01:52:25.000 I mean, he really did do that.

01:52:27.000 If you really stop and think about it.

01:52:28.000 I mean, Cyborg wanted to do something, and he stalled him out.

01:52:31.000 It's not a fun thing to watch, and it's not good if you're Cyborg.

01:52:37.000 Yeah.

01:52:37.000 But...

01:52:39.000 If a guy could stall you out, like that's a weird, in a grappling situation, that's a weird situation.

01:52:44.000 Someone just defenses you, just pushes you off, never attacks, just keeps pushing you off.

01:52:48.000 Yeah, what do you do?

01:52:49.000 What do you do?

01:52:50.000 Yeah.

01:52:51.000 I mean, and how much of your jiu-jitsu is based on someone that's willing to engage?

01:52:59.000 It's a problem.

01:53:01.000 It's a big problem.

01:53:02.000 When guys go to the ground, oftentimes you'll see them almost not even securing a position, just thinking this position will maintain this way because it is in training all the time.

01:53:11.000 Because guys are just lying on top of you and you're in your guard.

01:53:14.000 Instead of just jumping out of your guard, going knee to belly and smashing you in the face, you think you can catch a little break because you do all the time in training.

01:53:21.000 You really see that with jiu-jitsu players sometimes.

01:53:24.000 They forget.

01:53:25.000 They have to hold on.

01:53:27.000 Especially guys that are used to training with the gi.

01:53:29.000 And then they're in an MMA fight, and the guy's on top of him, and they think they're trying to set up an arm bar or something like that, and that people are just like, nope, I'm just going to get out of here.

01:53:37.000 I'm just chilling.

01:53:38.000 I'm going to get out of the spot.

01:53:39.000 Do you still train in Gi?

01:53:41.000 Yeah.

01:53:43.000 Where do you train?

01:53:44.000 John Jock.

01:53:46.000 The last time I did it was two weeks ago, three weeks ago.

01:53:49.000 It might have been more.

01:53:50.000 Me and Russell Peters.

01:53:52.000 We've done it a couple of times.

01:53:53.000 We did it in Malibu, too.

01:53:55.000 He's a good dude, man.

01:53:56.000 John Jack Machado's awesome.

01:53:58.000 Yeah, I heard good things about him.

01:53:59.000 He's awesome.

01:54:00.000 Couldn't be a nicer person.

01:54:01.000 And just really, really technical.

01:54:04.000 Really good at breaking things down.

01:54:05.000 Really good at explaining things.

01:54:07.000 The big gym?

01:54:08.000 It's a good size, you know.

01:54:10.000 He'll get like 60 people there in a noon class sometimes, though.

01:54:13.000 That's awesome.

01:54:13.000 It gets packed.

01:54:14.000 Yeah.

01:54:15.000 Is it in the heart of the city, or what?

01:54:17.000 No, it's in Tarzana.

01:54:18.000 Oh, Tarzana.

01:54:18.000 Yeah.

01:54:19.000 There's a bunch of Machado gyms still, though, I think.

01:54:21.000 I think they have one in Redondo.

01:54:23.000 Hey, it's me and Russell.

01:54:24.000 Yeah.

01:54:25.000 Huh.

01:54:26.000 Um...

01:54:29.000 But he's just got just perfect basics, perfect advantage.

01:54:36.000 I mean, everything he does, he's always in the perfect position.

01:54:39.000 His defense is always perfect.

01:54:40.000 Like, when you roll with a guy like that, it's like, wow, there's so many levels to this thing.

01:54:44.000 Like, it just lets you know.

01:54:45.000 Like, it's just level after level.

01:54:47.000 He's never in danger, ever.

01:54:48.000 Never.

01:54:49.000 He's always laughing.

01:54:50.000 Oh, Joe Hogan!

01:54:52.000 Joe Hogan!

01:54:53.000 You're trying to get him out, Joe Hogan!

01:54:55.000 Yeah, exactly.

01:54:57.000 Yeah.

01:54:57.000 You talk to that guy?

01:54:58.000 Yeah, sure.

01:55:00.000 Hassan?

01:55:00.000 Yeah, he seems pretty cool.

01:55:02.000 He's hilarious, man.

01:55:03.000 That character's one of the most weird, obscure...

01:55:06.000 Like, think about it, that it's a character that he developed that's a fake Brazilian, multiple-time world champion.

01:55:13.000 But the dude who plays it is, like, he's legit!

01:55:16.000 He's a normal guy, right?

01:55:17.000 Actually, with Hassan, he's one of Eddie's black belts.

01:55:19.000 I think he got his black belt.

01:55:20.000 I'm pretty sure he did.

01:55:22.000 He's a really good grappler, man.

01:55:23.000 Really?

01:55:24.000 Yeah, but he pretends to be this guy, Renato Laranja.

01:55:27.000 Yeah, I remember I met him one time at EBI and he wouldn't come out of character.

01:55:32.000 Yeah, that was him.

01:55:33.000 He fucking gave me a hard time about James Brown or something, I think.

01:55:36.000 I forgot what it was.

01:55:37.000 Oh, weed.

01:55:37.000 Smoking weed.

01:55:39.000 But he's my friend.

01:55:40.000 I've been friends with him for a long time.

01:55:42.000 He's a great guy in real life.

01:55:43.000 That's a character.

01:55:46.000 He's so committed to this character.

01:55:47.000 He's been doing this character for like 10 fucking years, man.

01:55:50.000 Does he do it just like in public?

01:55:52.000 Oh, he'll fuck around with you in public.

01:55:53.000 He'll bust out the character.

01:55:55.000 He's always on.

01:55:56.000 It's gotta be fun, though.

01:55:57.000 You gotta have a character.

01:55:59.000 Some people got really mad at him though.

01:56:01.000 Nate Diaz got legitimately mad at him.

01:56:03.000 Was that at the booth?

01:56:04.000 Yes.

01:56:05.000 Like the OTM booth?

01:56:06.000 Yeah, something like that.

01:56:07.000 Something happened.

01:56:08.000 I think I saw the video.

01:56:09.000 Nate was like, get the fuck out of here, bitch.

01:56:12.000 And he was like, hey, I'm just fucking around.

01:56:16.000 What in the hell, bro?

01:56:18.000 Is that his IG right there?

01:56:20.000 You have to turn it away because of the girl's butt?

01:56:23.000 Not necessarily, but he does have a couple of things on there.

01:56:26.000 His character is always hilarious.

01:56:28.000 His character hates child support and is always attracted to butts.

01:56:32.000 Childs have parched.

01:56:34.000 I mean, it's a crazy character, man.

01:56:36.000 It seems like something that someone would have on a television show or something.

01:56:39.000 Yeah.

01:56:39.000 You know?

01:56:40.000 It's ours.

01:56:41.000 It's only for, like, only MMA people and jiu-jitsu people know about it.

01:56:45.000 Exactly.

01:56:46.000 Everyone wants to get it.

01:56:48.000 You go try to hit the streets with that joke, they'll be like, what are you saying?

01:56:50.000 I'm almost positive he's a black belt.

01:56:52.000 He's a very legit martial artist.

01:56:54.000 That's pretty cool.

01:56:55.000 His dad was a karate instructor, too.

01:56:57.000 He's a bad motherfucker.

01:56:58.000 He's a real martial artist.

01:57:00.000 That character is just so funny.

01:57:02.000 Yeah.

01:57:03.000 I gotta meet him.

01:57:04.000 We can arrange that.

01:57:06.000 That'd be cool as shit.

01:57:07.000 So what is next for you after this past fight?

01:57:10.000 What do they do?

01:57:11.000 Do they give you some time to recover and then hit you with some options?

01:57:15.000 Does your management contact the UFC? How does it work?

01:57:19.000 Yeah, it could be management contacting them or just UFC reaching out just to see when I'll be ready.

01:57:25.000 But since the fight, I just took a little bit of time off to see the family.

01:57:28.000 It's been a while since I've seen them.

01:57:30.000 Did they ever offer you a short notice fight?

01:57:34.000 I've gotten offered a short notice fight before.

01:57:38.000 A long time ago, I got offered that Gustafson fight.

01:57:43.000 It was like a long shot.

01:57:45.000 I didn't think I was going to get it, but I was down.

01:57:46.000 I was like, yeah, I'll take it.

01:57:47.000 And it was like, I think 10 days notice, 7 days notice at the one in LA. But it didn't happen.

01:57:55.000 And then I offered to be the replacement for the fight in Sao Paulo that Eric Anders stepped in for.

01:58:03.000 Against Thiago?

01:58:04.000 It was either going to be against him or Manoa.

01:58:09.000 Who was supposed to fight first?

01:58:11.000 Thiago?

01:58:13.000 He was like...

01:58:13.000 Someone pulled out of that card.

01:58:15.000 I'm not sure.

01:58:16.000 I don't remember.

01:58:16.000 Yeah, someone pulled out of it, and then they offered me since I was already in Brazil.

01:58:19.000 But I think they needed a Brazilian to fill the card, so...

01:58:24.000 I couldn't do it.

01:58:25.000 So, yeah, there's been times that I've been willing to step in short notice.

01:58:29.000 But for now, I'm like, if what I've learned in four months has been able to get me this far in my last fight, then I'm going to go back and just get back to training so I can be ready when they call me again.

01:58:41.000 So what do you anticipate?

01:58:42.000 How many times would you like to fight a year?

01:58:44.000 I want to fight at least two more times this year.

01:58:47.000 Yeah.

01:58:48.000 So...

01:58:50.000 I've got to learn what works for me just based off the time put into this camp and kind of this new system that I can start to develop.

01:59:00.000 So now just get back, start training it, and then get into a fight camp.

01:59:06.000 And typically, what do you like?

01:59:08.000 Do you like 8 weeks, 12 weeks?

01:59:10.000 What do you need to prepare?

01:59:11.000 I think 8 weeks is perfect.

01:59:13.000 Yeah, eight weeks is perfect.

01:59:16.000 I'll take six weeks.

01:59:19.000 Four weeks feels kind of like, yeah.

01:59:22.000 You know, everything's kind of got to be rushed.

01:59:25.000 But, yeah, I think six to eight weeks is perfect.

01:59:29.000 And what are you doing for recovery while you're out there?

01:59:31.000 Are you doing Thai massage?

01:59:32.000 Are you doing any cryotherapy?

01:59:33.000 Thai massages are so cheap.

01:59:35.000 You can get a two hour Thai massage for yourself.

01:59:37.000 You can get a two hour Thai massage for maybe like 10 bucks.

01:59:42.000 Wow.

01:59:42.000 Two hours.

01:59:43.000 Full body Thai massage.

01:59:44.000 That's incredible.

01:59:45.000 Elbows and feet.

01:59:45.000 Everything.

01:59:46.000 That's incredible.

01:59:47.000 And then they do the ice baths but they put like big blocks of ice.

01:59:51.000 They don't put bags.

01:59:53.000 So there's a bunch of just ice baths and massages.

01:59:55.000 That's it.

01:59:56.000 Stretching.

01:59:57.000 But I really want to do something down there.

02:00:01.000 Like save some money and maybe get a recovery place going.

02:00:05.000 Like what kind of recovery place?

02:00:07.000 I want to bring something down there.

02:00:09.000 I wasn't going to get about this idea, but whatever.

02:00:12.000 Who cares?

02:00:13.000 I think because there's so much stuff down there, gyms, CrossFit, restaurants, all that stuff, I think the only thing that's lacking is a proper recovery, cryo, cold plunge, hot tub, no massage,

02:00:30.000 just...

02:00:32.000 Like speedy recovery.

02:00:34.000 You've been in the cryo, right?

02:00:35.000 Yeah.

02:00:35.000 Man, you can go after a hard session and go cryo and go take a nap and you'll feel pretty good.

02:00:40.000 Yeah.

02:00:41.000 You feel really good just getting out of it.

02:00:44.000 Do you feel the same way from ice baths?

02:00:47.000 Cold plunge, yeah.

02:00:48.000 Like the one at the PI, that one's freezing cold.

02:00:50.000 I do a couple minutes in there.

02:00:51.000 And yeah, the ice baths in Thailand, because the bricks are so big, it takes a long time to really fill up and stuff so they don't get as cold.

02:01:00.000 So I think I would love to just help out, like help that little community and just get something really cool.

02:01:06.000 Really good in there for just recovery and have, you know, maybe some type of smoothies or something to help boost everything up, get the system running again so that we can train multiple times a day.

02:01:17.000 Now, do you do anything to monitor your heart rate or heart rate variability to see if you're overtrained or undertrained, see how you're feeling?

02:01:25.000 Yeah, not as much as we did here at the UFC PI, but I do have a heart rate monitor.

02:01:30.000 And for this fight camp, I use it only to make sure that I can get my weight down because I got up to like 235. And I did this like VO2 max test and I did all this stuff and this clinic down there helped me to just understand when my body's burning fat so where to keep my heart rate and how to monitor like when I'm actually working hard enough to lose the weight and it worked so it was good.

02:01:56.000 It's such a different world now with all these scientific inventions and different ways that they can make sure that your body's in a good space.

02:02:04.000 It's not guesswork anymore.

02:02:05.000 They can make sure you're not overtrained or fighting something off.

02:02:10.000 The same time I was doing VO2max, they had a...

02:02:13.000 Like an EKG going on, everything.

02:02:15.000 So I'm like running, they're making sure my heart's pumping, my lungs are functioning, everything all in sync.

02:02:22.000 And they gave me this whole big printout of everything and everything seemed to be working perfectly.

02:02:25.000 So they were just like, okay, well, in order to lose this much weight by this much, this is where you need to be at.

02:02:32.000 And when your body's at the highest fat burning stage is when your heart rate's at like...

02:02:39.000 178 for me it was.

02:02:40.000 178 ppms.

02:02:42.000 And so I did my best to push there.

02:02:45.000 And I at least know when I'm there, I'm burning the most fat.

02:02:49.000 So I'll try to get there as much as possible.

02:02:50.000 Are you going to try to not do that again as far as like get that heavy?

02:02:53.000 Oh, 100%.

02:02:54.000 Yeah, yeah, 100%.

02:02:55.000 But...

02:02:56.000 Getting that heavy too, I was like, I'd lost a Johnny Walker fight, got to Thailand.

02:03:00.000 Oh, food, sugar, like all this stuff.

02:03:03.000 So I was just kind of like, I don't know when I'm fighting again.

02:03:06.000 But now, I'm ready to be active.

02:03:08.000 That was a big part of my decision to go there too.

02:03:12.000 And stay there a year, is I want to be active this year.

02:03:15.000 Two fights, but...

02:03:18.000 Training.

02:03:19.000 Where do they have you ranked now?

02:03:21.000 I don't think I am.

02:03:22.000 You don't think you're ranked even top 15?

02:03:24.000 No, definitely not.

02:03:26.000 What do you think you should do in terms of the next level of fighter you face?

02:03:31.000 What kind of guy would you like to fight?

02:03:40.000 Man, that's crazy.

02:03:41.000 I don't even ask myself those questions.

02:03:43.000 What do you do?

02:03:43.000 You just wait for the call?

02:03:44.000 Yeah.

02:03:45.000 I usually just...

02:03:46.000 I wait for the call and whoever they...

02:03:50.000 They usually offer two.

02:03:53.000 They have like two options.

02:03:55.000 Really?

02:03:55.000 Yeah.

02:03:56.000 How do you choose?

02:03:59.000 Usually they offer like...

02:04:01.000 Like the last time it was...

02:04:03.000 Okay, there's Eric Anders or there's a guy like I didn't even know his name.

02:04:08.000 Like this guy...

02:04:11.000 It's going to be new coming into the UFC and Eric Anders is coming off a loss, blah blah blah.

02:04:16.000 I'm like, okay, well, it sucks.

02:04:17.000 I know Eric, all this stuff, but I'd rather fight Eric because I've already lost three times to guys who are making their UFC debuts and it's just not good for me.

02:04:26.000 You know what I mean?

02:04:26.000 Like, obviously they're tough.

02:04:28.000 They're hungry.

02:04:30.000 They're trying to get into the UFC. It's going to be a really tough fight.

02:04:34.000 And so that's kind of how I made the decision the last one.

02:04:37.000 I was like, I don't want to take the risk of losing another fight to a guy who is making his debut.

02:04:43.000 Because three times was enough for me.

02:04:45.000 That's refreshingly honest.

02:04:49.000 It's like we were talking about earlier about boxers, having managers that have a strategy to keep them undefeated as long as possible, give them tests, have them decide when's the right time to take this fight, what's the right thing to do?

02:05:02.000 And as a professional, how much of an advantage is it to know what a guy does, know who he is, have seen him fight a bunch of times, been around him?

02:05:12.000 Yeah, it's...

02:05:13.000 I just, like, just for instance, like, I fought Gokan Saki, and then they offered me Johnny Walker.

02:05:19.000 And so, like, Johnny Walker was coming off Contender Series, but still nobody knew.

02:05:25.000 Like, not even we knew.

02:05:27.000 We saw his highlights, but we're like, oh, well, like...

02:05:31.000 Look at the competition that he's faced.

02:05:34.000 So we didn't really get to see much of what he was capable of.

02:05:37.000 So I'm like, okay, if that's all you got, then I'll take the fight.

02:05:40.000 But then here comes Johnny Walker, this raging beast.

02:05:44.000 The guy's huge.

02:05:50.000 Yeah, it was just, it was weird.

02:05:51.000 Like, so I went from beating Okan Saki to losing Johnny Walker.

02:05:54.000 Thank God Johnny Walker has been as good as he has and has made a name for himself.

02:05:58.000 But still, like, yeah, I just didn't want to be like a, I guess like a...

02:06:04.000 A foot in, or what do they call it?

02:06:07.000 A journeyman?

02:06:10.000 Yeah, not a journeyman, but when they say you're trying to get your foot in the door or something like that.

02:06:15.000 A foot in the door guy?

02:06:16.000 Someone said it on Instagram.

02:06:18.000 I saw it a few times.

02:06:20.000 I just didn't want to just be another guy that could possibly give somebody their shot into the UFC. I was like, let me fight a guy that's in the UFC this time.

02:06:32.000 Well, so now that you did and you had the fight with Eric Anders and you have this spectacular result, and now people are recognizing that you've made some big improvement, what caliber of fighter?

02:06:44.000 Who do you think would propel your career?

02:06:46.000 What would be the best next step?

02:06:51.000 I mean, definitely, I think it's time for me to break somewhere into the top 15. You know, for sure.

02:06:57.000 Nowhere in the guys that are at the very top, because...

02:07:02.000 They're all kind of tied up.

02:07:03.000 They're all pretty tied up.

02:07:05.000 I definitely think it'll be a while before I can actually fight Jones because just of how things are laid out.

02:07:13.000 I know for sure Johnny Walker's ranked and he's already kind of in talks.

02:07:18.000 He's the guy to beat Jon Jones.

02:07:19.000 I'm sure they're going to try to set that up.

02:07:22.000 Then there's kind of this set of guys in the middle.

02:07:26.000 Did Johnny Walker fuck his shoulder up when he was doing that worm thing?

02:07:29.000 Supposedly.

02:07:30.000 Supposedly.

02:07:31.000 But I think he's fine.

02:07:32.000 I think he's fine.

02:07:33.000 Because I've had people...

02:07:34.000 Call me and like, hey, I just see this Johnny Walker guy down on the street every day.

02:07:38.000 I guess he's back in Thailand now.

02:07:40.000 So he did that flop around thing, and then when he got up, he couldn't move his shoulder.

02:07:46.000 Yeah, dislocated it.

02:07:47.000 I think that's what happened.

02:07:49.000 That's so insane.

02:07:50.000 I think you called it out.

02:07:53.000 I was like, what's going on, man?

02:07:56.000 I hope he didn't permanently injure his shoulder.

02:08:00.000 Nah, I think he might be fine.

02:08:02.000 I hope so.

02:08:03.000 Yeah, he's not walking around in a sling or anything right now, but he could have a little...

02:08:07.000 But yeah, after your fight with him, he's made quite an account of himself.

02:08:10.000 Yeah.

02:08:10.000 That last fight with that flying knee was insane.

02:08:12.000 Yeah.

02:08:12.000 So I'm sure before I get to the top, I'd have to fight him again, right?

02:08:16.000 What's up, Jim?

02:08:17.000 Yeah, I would imagine.

02:08:18.000 He is currently recuperating from shoulder surgery after dislocating him.

02:08:22.000 Shoulder surgery?

02:08:24.000 Dude.

02:08:25.000 Ugh.

02:08:26.000 Shoulder surgery.

02:08:28.000 That's never good.

02:08:29.000 He fucked up.

02:08:30.000 That's crazy.

02:08:31.000 I've never known anybody to have shoulder surgery and come back with a fully surgery.

02:08:35.000 Andre Ward did.

02:08:37.000 Andre Ward had shoulder surgery and came back better than ever.

02:08:40.000 But he's also got the best doctors.

02:08:42.000 Sure.

02:08:42.000 Took a long time.

02:08:43.000 Two months from a comeback is what he says.

02:08:44.000 He hopes to fight the winner.

02:08:45.000 Two months!

02:08:46.000 He better take his time.

02:08:50.000 He doesn't want to fuck his shoulder up forever if it rips again.

02:08:54.000 That's a great fight.

02:08:55.000 Anthony Smith and Gustafson, that's a great fight.

02:08:58.000 Anthony Smith, he really held his own.

02:09:01.000 He made a good account of himself in that fight.

02:09:03.000 He didn't win the fight, but he showed everybody how technical he is, especially in that first round.

02:09:09.000 Fought real good and sharp.

02:09:11.000 John's just better.

02:09:12.000 John's just better.

02:09:15.000 For now, he just has his number.

02:09:17.000 I mean, in the Jon Jones you're seeing now is the Jon Jones that sort of has a real goal in mind.

02:09:23.000 Yeah, yeah.

02:09:24.000 He's had it taken away from him, and they gave it back to him, and now he knows he has it, and he's capitalizing on it.

02:09:29.000 It seems like it.

02:09:30.000 It's just like he knows what it's like to be...

02:09:33.000 To be the best but not be able to really do anything about it, right?

02:09:37.000 For a long amount of time.

02:09:38.000 I think it's pretty cool to be able to see this version of him and to be active around this time.

02:09:45.000 Maybe I'll get a shot or maybe he'll still be around at the top whenever I get my shot.

02:09:51.000 Depending on how it goes.

02:09:52.000 If you had a timeline in your head of when you think you'd be ready to challenge for a title, when do you think it would be?

02:10:02.000 I can give it Another year.

02:10:06.000 Yeah.

02:10:07.000 I think I can get one more year, year and a half of good solid fights in to really solidify myself just in the UFC. And...

02:10:22.000 And just put in the work and everything that it takes to really embody what I think it would be, like, what I think it would take to be a champion.

02:10:32.000 A successful champion, not just, like, get the belt and lose it.

02:10:35.000 You know, like, get the belt and then...

02:10:40.000 Just be a champion for, you know, a couple months.

02:10:42.000 Like not to actually be a champion and hold it down.

02:10:47.000 I think a little over a year.

02:10:49.000 Well, it's an unbelievably talent-rich weight class, right?

02:10:54.000 Because Cormier is still kind of in it.

02:10:56.000 Mm-hmm.

02:10:56.000 John Jones is the champion.

02:10:59.000 He just got off the Anthony Smith fight.

02:11:01.000 Anthony Smith-Gustafson.

02:11:02.000 Gustafson's still a beast.

02:11:03.000 But no one is really standing out as being this person that everybody wants to see challenged for the title.

02:11:11.000 You've got worthy challengers.

02:11:12.000 They're good fights.

02:11:13.000 But there's no one that you're seeing them, except Cormier was the only one.

02:11:18.000 We've seen him versus John.

02:11:19.000 You're like, what the fuck is going to happen here?

02:11:21.000 What's going to happen here?

02:11:22.000 And that's what the division needs, I think.

02:11:25.000 Definitely.

02:11:26.000 And that's something that I can also see.

02:11:30.000 And that's something that I also want to do for myself.

02:11:36.000 I want to be the best version.

02:11:37.000 And I'm starting to find out what that's like.

02:11:40.000 Especially the happy...

02:11:52.000 We're good to go.

02:12:11.000 Yeah.

02:12:16.000 Yeah.

02:12:23.000 I knew that I had everything it took to beat him, but I didn't think like, ah, he's going to destroy me.

02:12:28.000 No, never.

02:12:30.000 So I want to continue to be tested.

02:12:33.000 It's interesting your approach because I wonder if the fact that you were such a non-confrontational guy and you are really easygoing helps you in that you have less conflict in your head.

02:12:46.000 I almost wonder, because even the way you approach these different matchups and everything, you kind of put your ego aside.

02:12:54.000 You're looking at, what is the smart thing to do here?

02:12:56.000 The smart thing to do is not take this fight against this newcomer guy.

02:12:58.000 I've already lost to newcomer guys.

02:13:00.000 The smart thing is, okay, we realized that Thailand was extremely beneficial.

02:13:04.000 Let's fucking move to Thailand.

02:13:05.000 So you're doing all these really, really smart moves where you're looking at it very logically, but...

02:13:15.000 Yeah.

02:13:30.000 That's the most important thing, though, man.

02:13:33.000 Like, I don't really tune in to much UFC and, like, what's going on because of that reason.

02:13:41.000 I don't care about what people have to say in this.

02:13:44.000 I don't watch fighting to hear what people have to say.

02:13:47.000 You know?

02:13:48.000 Like, I didn't fight.

02:13:49.000 Like, it's not about talking.

02:13:50.000 It's about fighting.

02:13:51.000 And the only thing that I can prove and have to prove is what I can do with my skills.

02:13:56.000 That's it.

02:13:57.000 You know?

02:13:57.000 So, like, if they put me, like...

02:14:01.000 If they put me against any type of other fighter, like, let's go back to the roots of mixed martial arts.

02:14:07.000 Let's go back to the roots of UFC, like, when guys weren't even the same size and they were just matching up different martial arts.

02:14:13.000 You'd be down for that?

02:14:15.000 I mean, I'd consider it, and if it had to happen now, like, yeah, I'd definitely think about it, and I'd probably lean more towards doing it than saying no.

02:14:25.000 Do you have guys trash talk you?

02:14:29.000 You're a pretty easy going guy.

02:14:31.000 Easy going.

02:14:32.000 It's nothing to my face.

02:14:33.000 It's always subtle.

02:14:34.000 If I ever hear about anybody saying something, it's just through word of mouth.

02:14:38.000 But you never had a Conor McGregor type incident?

02:14:43.000 Only in the beginning with Paul Craig, but I think it was just...

02:14:48.000 It was just, like, his thing.

02:14:50.000 We've, like, we smashed that beef, you know?

02:14:53.000 That's good.

02:14:54.000 Yeah, but...

02:14:55.000 What do you think about trash-talking in this day and age?

02:14:57.000 Because in many ways, look, Conor's an amazing fighter, and his fighting skills, what's made him such an international superstar.

02:15:04.000 But he also talks some mad shit, and that helped him, too, because he was so good at it.

02:15:09.000 It was funny.

02:15:10.000 He would say funny, mean, insulting shit.

02:15:13.000 It was fucking great.

02:15:14.000 100%.

02:15:15.000 Yeah.

02:15:15.000 But I think what people forget, Joe, is that that's always been Conor.

02:15:19.000 Even when you go and look at the interviews from before he was in the UFC and he was just like, I'm going to make a bunch of money and I'm going to be all this.

02:15:29.000 So he created that for himself.

02:15:32.000 And yeah, he made a bunch of money from talking trash because he always had a plan that that's what he was going to do.

02:15:39.000 Yeah.

02:15:40.000 And so I think people try to hop on it just to sell tickets or get money.

02:15:44.000 And sometimes it works.

02:15:44.000 It gets people wanting to watch and it gets your name up and stuff like that.

02:15:48.000 But that's not the time but name I want to make for myself.

02:15:51.000 Like, I don't like people talking trash to me, so I'm not really going to talk trash to anybody unless there's something that's really personal.

02:15:58.000 But if I don't know you and I don't care about you, then I don't really consider it.

02:16:03.000 Like, why would I talk trash?

02:16:04.000 I don't even care about you.

02:16:06.000 Right?

02:16:09.000 It's a waste of energy.

02:16:10.000 It's a waste of...

02:16:11.000 I got so much other stuff to care about.

02:16:16.000 Yeah, well, it's a very healthy look, man.

02:16:19.000 I mean, the way you're seeing it.

02:16:21.000 I like that you said healthy.

02:16:22.000 I'd like to maintain a healthy heart and mind as much as possible.

02:16:29.000 Dude, it's...

02:16:29.000 Damn, man.

02:16:30.000 Mental health is a real thing.

02:16:32.000 It is.

02:16:32.000 You know what I mean?

02:16:33.000 And especially...

02:16:35.000 Especially just having certain obligations and just using social media and having people reach out.

02:16:42.000 They say, like, oh, ignore this, ignore that.

02:16:44.000 But it's like, man, it's hard to just ignore certain things.

02:16:48.000 You still see things.

02:16:50.000 And so just that and condition of the world and just everything, man.

02:16:54.000 Being in multiple different countries and hearing this news and that news and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

02:16:58.000 For a person who...

02:17:01.000 Who wants to care about the world or just genuinely cares, a lot can go on in my mind.

02:17:07.000 So I'm just like, I don't even want that in my heart, man.

02:17:09.000 I'm just going to do my best to kind of keep my own peace and come fight time, I'll let it loose.

02:17:16.000 Dude, I like the way you're living, man.

02:17:18.000 You got a great approach.

02:17:19.000 I just want to be happy, man.

02:17:21.000 I appreciate that.

02:17:22.000 Happiness is important.

02:17:23.000 It is, man.

02:17:24.000 It's a great message, too, man.

02:17:25.000 And to have it come from you, I love those kind of stories where a guy's life was all fucked up and you figured it out, man.

02:17:33.000 And you put it together.

02:17:34.000 Man, tell me, like, nothing feels better than just, like, being fucking happy.

02:17:39.000 Yeah.

02:17:39.000 Right?

02:17:40.000 Like, when you're okay with your life, when you're okay with your heart, your integrity, when you just feel like, you know what, I haven't done anything wrong.

02:17:50.000 Yeah.

02:17:51.000 I'm okay.

02:17:52.000 Like, life is happening the way it is, and I have not...

02:17:55.000 I don't have to think about, did I fuck this person over?

02:17:58.000 Did I do this?

02:17:58.000 Like, no.

02:17:59.000 Everything is okay.

02:18:00.000 Yeah.

02:18:01.000 So why welcome anything else?

02:18:02.000 Like, no, man.

02:18:03.000 Clear mind.

02:18:04.000 Clear heart.

02:18:05.000 It's a rare thing.

02:18:06.000 It's a rare feat to achieve balance.

02:18:08.000 And balance is hard to maintain.

02:18:10.000 So it's like, it takes a little bit of fighting.

02:18:13.000 It takes meditation.

02:18:14.000 It takes anger.

02:18:15.000 It takes it.

02:18:15.000 Like, yin and yang is the most beautiful thing ever, man.

02:18:18.000 Like, that is life.

02:18:19.000 That is life.

02:18:20.000 It really is.

02:18:21.000 The opposite, the balance of opposites, the constant flow.

02:18:25.000 That's why I love just reading the Tao Te Ching and just like Kundalini Yoga, all the cool spiritual stuff.

02:18:34.000 I'm like, yeah, man, this is it.

02:18:35.000 It just helps me to just kind of reach for this peace, this light.

02:18:40.000 That's awesome.

02:18:42.000 Do you see the contradiction in reaching for that peace and light while you're smashing people?

02:18:46.000 Yes, and that's life.

02:18:48.000 That is life.

02:18:48.000 That's life, man.

02:18:49.000 That's life.

02:18:50.000 Like a battery, right?

02:18:52.000 In order for it to give its power, it's got to have the negative and positive energies flowing through it.

02:18:59.000 I feel like a lot of the times people are too focused on one side, too much negative or too much positive, and you need a good amount of both in order for that power.

02:19:10.000 That energy to spark.

02:19:12.000 Well said.

02:19:13.000 You're a wise man.

02:19:14.000 I appreciate you, man.

02:19:15.000 And thanks for coming on the show.

02:19:16.000 And I can't wait to do commentary for one of your fights again, man.

02:19:20.000 I can't wait to have you there again.

02:19:21.000 It was really fun, man.

02:19:22.000 We had a good fucking time.

02:19:24.000 It was great.

02:19:25.000 Thank you.

02:19:26.000 Thank you, man.

02:19:26.000 Respect.

02:19:30.000 That was great, man.

02:19:31.000 You were terrific.

The Joe Rogan Experience - April 25, 2019

JRE MMA Show #64 with Khalil Rountree Jr.

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