The Podcast of the Lotus Eaters - September 29, 2024


PREVIEW： Epochs #178 ｜ Pompey and Caesar： Part IV


Episode Stats

Length

22 minutes

Words per Minute

163.01273

Word Count

3,745

Sentence Count

213


Summary


Transcript

00:00:00.000 Hello and welcome to this episode of Epochs, where after a two-week hiatus I shall be continuing my story
00:00:05.980 all about the decline and fall of the Roman Republic.
00:00:09.420 Thank you for staying with me, hopefully you're looking forward to continuing this story as much as I am.
00:00:14.460 Last time I left off talking about Caesar, didn't I?
00:00:17.720 If you remember, I'm doing the narrative intertwined with Pompey and Caesar,
00:00:21.520 but where Pompey's life or career, both actually, starts before Caesar's,
00:00:25.560 did a couple of episodes on him and his earlier career, and an episode on Caesar's earlier life and career.
00:00:32.220 So hopefully in this episode, or halfway through or towards the end of this episode,
00:00:37.020 their lives and careers will start to properly intertwine.
00:00:40.540 If you remember, I left off Pompey, where he had defeated the pirates at that point in his career.
00:00:46.260 And I'd left off Caesar, I was just about to start talking about the Great Goddess Scandal,
00:00:51.860 the Bonadier Affair, whatever you want to call it.
00:00:56.300 And I should be continuing using Plutarch as the main source,
00:01:00.340 but very soon, during this episode, I would have thought,
00:01:04.100 Appian starts picking up his narrative, really where Pompey and Caesar's careers really start overlapping.
00:01:12.400 So we won't just be using Plutarch very soon, we'll also have Appian.
00:01:17.300 And then going forward, also, I should be using Cassius Dio.
00:01:22.220 And then also probably from the next episode onwards, or at some point,
00:01:25.780 I'll start using third-party sources as well, modern sources, modern historians,
00:01:31.720 what they've got to say about these things.
00:01:33.240 But for now, we're just going to continue using Plutarch.
00:01:36.160 Okay, let's continue then.
00:01:37.920 If you remember, I had said, or Plutarch had told us,
00:01:41.160 that just explicitly Caesar's wife, Popaea, and Clodius, Clodius Pulcher, were lovers.
00:01:47.860 And that Caesar's mother, Aurelia, sort of tried to not let Popaea out of her sight.
00:01:52.680 So it's very difficult for Clodius and Popaea to hook up.
00:01:57.080 But yet, nonetheless, that didn't really stop Pulcher, or Clodius.
00:02:01.340 Let's call him Clodius.
00:02:03.260 Okay, so Plutarch says this, quote,
00:02:04.840 The Romans have a goddess whom they call the Good Goddess,
00:02:08.760 the same one as the Greeks call the Woman's Goddess.
00:02:11.940 The Phrygians claim this goddess as their own,
00:02:14.540 and say that she was the mother of King Midas.
00:02:17.460 The Romans say that she was one of the nymphs called Dryads,
00:02:20.600 and was married to Phanus.
00:02:22.120 The Greeks say that she is that one of the mothers of Dionysus,
00:02:25.940 whose name must not be spoken.
00:02:27.420 And this is why the women, when they are celebrating her festival,
00:02:30.620 cover the tents with branches of vine,
00:02:32.200 and, in accordance with the myth,
00:02:34.260 have a sacred snake enthroned at the goddess's side.
00:02:37.200 It is not lawful for a man to be present at the rites,
00:02:39.940 nor even to be in the house where they are being celebrated.
00:02:42.700 The women perform these sacred ceremonies by themselves,
00:02:45.580 and these ceremonies are said to be very much like those of the Orphics.
00:02:49.100 When the time for the festival comes,
00:02:50.860 the consul operator, at whose house it is being held,
00:02:53.800 goes away.
00:02:54.340 In this instance, it was the Pontifex Maximus, i.e. Caesar himself.
00:02:58.840 As does every male creature in the household.
00:03:00.760 His wife then takes over the house and arranges the decorations.
00:03:04.580 The most important ceremonies take place at night.
00:03:07.080 The women play together among themselves during the night-long celebrations,
00:03:10.600 and there is much music as well.
00:03:13.020 On this occasion, when Pompeia was in charge of the celebrations,
00:03:17.320 Clodius, who was still beardless,
00:03:19.460 and therefore thought that he would escape notice,
00:03:22.200 dressed himself up as a female flute player,
00:03:24.880 and, looking just like a young woman,
00:03:26.940 arrived at the house.
00:03:27.760 He found the door open and was brought inside quite safely
00:03:31.240 by the maid on duty, who was in on the secret.
00:03:34.440 She's an important person in this affair.
00:03:36.420 She was obviously completely facilitating the quote-unquote affair
00:03:41.180 that Clodius and Pompeia may or may not have been having.
00:03:44.800 He goes on.
00:03:45.240 The maid then ran off to tell Pompeia.
00:03:47.980 Time passed, and Clodius lacked the patience to stay where he had been left.
00:03:52.340 He began to wander about the house.
00:03:55.000 Not a good idea.
00:03:56.120 Which was a very large one, trying to avoid the lights,
00:03:59.280 and was accosted by one of Aurelia's servants,
00:04:01.720 who, as one woman to another, asked him to come and play with her.
00:04:05.280 When Clodius said no, she dragged him forward and asked him who he was
00:04:09.700 and where he came from.
00:04:11.160 Clodius said that he was waiting for Pompeia's girl, Abra,
00:04:14.700 the name of the maid who had introduced him.
00:04:17.000 But his voice gave him away.
00:04:19.080 Aurelia's servants shrieked and ran off to where the lights and the crowd were,
00:04:23.200 crying out that she had caught a man.
00:04:25.120 The women were in a panic.
00:04:26.840 Aurelia put a stop to the sacred rites of the goddess
00:04:29.040 and covered up the holy things.
00:04:31.440 You know, lest the gaze of a man fall upon them.
00:04:33.700 She then ordered the doors to be shut
00:04:35.780 and went all over the house with lighted torches in search of Clodius.
00:04:40.280 He was found hiding in the room belonging to the maid
00:04:43.080 who had let him into the house.
00:04:45.280 And when it was discovered who he was,
00:04:47.960 the women drove him out of doors.
00:04:50.440 They then went away immediately while it was still night
00:04:53.300 and told their husbands what had happened.
00:04:55.720 As soon as it was day, then word was going about the city
00:04:58.920 that Clodius had committed sacrilege
00:05:01.100 and owed satisfaction not only to those whom he had outraged
00:05:05.260 by his conduct, but also to the city and to the gods.
00:05:09.640 One of the tribunes, therefore, officially indicted Clodius for sacrilege
00:05:13.760 and the most influential members of the Senate
00:05:16.280 banded themselves together against him.
00:05:19.000 So, unquote.
00:05:20.840 So, Clodius was unpopular.
00:05:23.180 Remember, he's already, even though he's still quite young, i.e. beardless,
00:05:27.040 he was a famous Claudian, he was already known,
00:05:31.000 he was already a political player,
00:05:32.800 and he was already very much disliked for all sorts of reasons.
00:05:37.280 Lots of people would have disliked or been suspicious
00:05:39.700 or jealous of the Claudians anyway.
00:05:42.940 But, remember, Clodius was a popularis.
00:05:45.780 He was one of, if not the leading light in the popularis.
00:05:49.580 It was him and Caesar that were really the leading guys
00:05:52.880 in the whole popularis faction.
00:05:55.260 So, he's kind of hated already from multiple angles.
00:05:59.820 So, once now he's been outed, you know, a proper, true scandal,
00:06:04.880 really having broken laws, almost certainly, probably,
00:06:08.500 although that's still up for some debate,
00:06:10.700 but certainly having left himself open
00:06:13.620 to some very, very serious criticisms, let's say that,
00:06:16.520 his enemies, political enemies in the Senate,
00:06:20.020 sort of smell blood, and, as we're told there,
00:06:23.360 banned against him, so, you know, sort of immediately,
00:06:26.380 this is our chance to sort of ruin him, ruin his name,
00:06:29.800 maybe even get him exiled, maybe executed,
00:06:34.400 but, you know, let's see what we can do first.
00:06:36.580 Let's certainly ban together against him.
00:06:39.080 There's blood in the water.
00:06:40.340 They, Claudius' political enemies,
00:06:42.360 gave evidence of a number of shocking crimes
00:06:45.160 which he had committed.
00:06:46.960 So, they're, you know, bringing out all the dirty,
00:06:48.860 all the dirty stories against him that they'd been,
00:06:51.820 that he'd so far avoided any sort of prosecution for.
00:06:54.860 They're bringing them all up.
00:06:56.500 Among which was adultery with his sister.
00:06:59.640 Whoa.
00:07:00.620 What?
00:07:02.340 If you remember, I think it was in the,
00:07:04.380 in the Cato episode, I talked about that.
00:07:07.800 There was rumours that Claudius might have been sleeping
00:07:11.280 with one of his sisters.
00:07:13.740 He had two, or was it even three sisters?
00:07:16.380 There's the, the Clodia, Clodia sisters.
00:07:19.960 I think there's three of them,
00:07:21.420 and they themselves are very, very popular and unpopular, right?
00:07:25.560 Among the popularist factions, they're darlings,
00:07:29.080 they're, you know, they're, they're it girls,
00:07:31.640 they're trendsetters,
00:07:33.300 but among the conservative faction of the city,
00:07:37.460 they're deeply unpopular.
00:07:38.800 They're thought of as strumpets or something.
00:07:42.640 They're the worst.
00:07:44.380 They're dirty.
00:07:46.520 You know what it's like.
00:07:47.880 You know how popular opinion can be very,
00:07:49.860 very divided on people.
00:07:51.580 I think of somebody like maybe Madonna or Lady Gaga.
00:07:54.940 Some people love them and idolise them,
00:07:56.640 and some people think they're disgusting whores.
00:07:59.160 Maybe I'll cut that out.
00:08:05.480 Is that a bit much?
00:08:08.540 Pluton goes on.
00:08:10.840 He may have committed adultery with his sister,
00:08:13.800 who was the wife of Lucullus.
00:08:15.640 Just another quick word,
00:08:17.160 if I can interrupt again,
00:08:18.740 about Lucullus.
00:08:20.340 If you don't remember,
00:08:21.240 I had mentioned that Lucullus was,
00:08:23.120 again, a very important person.
00:08:24.900 He won't get his own epochs or anything,
00:08:26.460 but he's in and around the story loads.
00:08:28.880 He's probably the second,
00:08:30.300 arguably the second most important general
00:08:32.320 in the Republic at this point.
00:08:33.660 Pompey is easily the most important,
00:08:35.760 preeminent imperator, general,
00:08:38.700 but Lucullus is sort of just below him.
00:08:40.580 He'd been out in the East,
00:08:41.480 fighting against Mithridates,
00:08:43.260 fighting against the pirates,
00:08:44.460 doing all sorts of things.
00:08:45.340 He's a tried and tested,
00:08:47.180 sure pair of hands,
00:08:48.860 militarily speaking,
00:08:49.700 and he's older,
00:08:51.240 a bit older than Clodius,
00:08:52.820 a generation older.
00:08:53.900 He'd married into the Claudian family,
00:08:56.180 the most preeminent family.
00:08:57.480 So he's Pluton's brother-in-law
00:08:59.560 and he'd actually come back from the East,
00:09:03.480 not too long before this,
00:09:05.180 and spread the rumour around
00:09:07.000 that his wife,
00:09:08.660 that he was obviously no longer in love with,
00:09:11.580 was sleeping with her own brother,
00:09:13.440 Clodius, this Clodius.
00:09:14.420 So, all sorts of scandals going on
00:09:18.340 and it's all being brought up now.
00:09:20.280 Maybe we can get Clodius.
00:09:22.900 You know, no one can be this brazen
00:09:25.500 and get away with it forever.
00:09:27.820 You know, who does he think he is?
00:09:29.320 Bill Cosby?
00:09:31.260 Jimmy Savile?
00:09:33.720 P. Diddy?
00:09:35.500 Can't get away with it forever, usually.
00:09:38.440 Well, Savile did, didn't he?
00:09:39.480 Anyway, anyway, anyway,
00:09:40.440 that's a side note.
00:09:41.900 Plutarch goes on.
00:09:43.020 The people, however,
00:09:44.680 set themselves against this party
00:09:46.400 of the nobility
00:09:47.160 and their defence of Clodius
00:09:49.200 was very useful to him
00:09:50.700 so far as the jury were concerned,
00:09:53.560 who took alarm
00:09:54.340 and were terrified
00:09:55.440 at the numbers of his supporters.
00:09:57.700 So Plutarch
00:09:58.320 has just moved the story along there.
00:10:00.720 The ancient historians do that a lot.
00:10:02.220 If you're not very careful,
00:10:03.680 you know, days or weeks have passed there
00:10:05.460 and now suddenly he's just,
00:10:07.320 one sentence later,
00:10:08.860 not even a paragraph break,
00:10:10.360 just one sentence later,
00:10:11.280 is talking about a whole new scene.
00:10:14.620 So this is the trial,
00:10:17.040 in inverted commas,
00:10:18.240 of Clodius.
00:10:19.020 It's not even really a trial,
00:10:20.100 it's the Senate having a hearing
00:10:21.980 to decide whether there should be
00:10:23.740 a full trial.
00:10:25.420 But nonetheless,
00:10:26.260 there's a jury of a type
00:10:27.620 and Clodius' supporters,
00:10:30.240 the Popularis faction,
00:10:32.380 the goateed young ones,
00:10:35.680 the loosely belted fashionable set,
00:10:39.160 have sort of packed the assembly,
00:10:41.840 you know,
00:10:42.100 to intimidate everyone there
00:10:44.020 to try and get Clodius off.
00:10:46.260 Remember,
00:10:46.720 Cicero wrote about it,
00:10:48.100 saying that they,
00:10:49.440 the goateed young ones,
00:10:51.640 these Popularis,
00:10:52.860 Little Miss Curio's set,
00:10:55.280 Curio is one of the other leading rights
00:10:56.840 in the Popularis faction.
00:10:58.360 They've sort of taken control
00:10:59.660 of the gangways.
00:11:01.480 So, you know,
00:11:01.860 real, physical,
00:11:03.340 immediate,
00:11:03.920 personal intimidation.
00:11:06.100 Now,
00:11:06.340 the implication is,
00:11:08.100 if Clodius isn't acquitted
00:11:09.380 or let off,
00:11:10.680 then they might go mad,
00:11:12.840 start smashing the place up,
00:11:14.420 burning things down,
00:11:15.400 clubbing people to death,
00:11:16.300 who knows, right?
00:11:17.660 Just because they're fashionistas,
00:11:19.960 doesn't mean they're not
00:11:20.760 an extremely violent mob,
00:11:22.840 as well.
00:11:24.060 Plutarch goes on,
00:11:24.640 Caesar divorced Pompeia at once.
00:11:27.480 But when he was called
00:11:28.320 as a witness at the trial,
00:11:30.720 he said that he knew nothing
00:11:32.360 about the charges against Clodius.
00:11:34.340 Because, again, remember,
00:11:35.600 Caesar and Clodius
00:11:36.560 are in the same faction,
00:11:39.160 right?
00:11:39.320 The Popularis faction.
00:11:40.060 So, although Clodius
00:11:41.260 has almost certainly
00:11:42.080 done him dirty
00:11:43.340 on some level here,
00:11:45.100 one,
00:11:45.820 perhaps having an affair
00:11:47.000 with his wife,
00:11:48.120 and two,
00:11:48.800 just making him look bad,
00:11:50.180 three,
00:11:50.540 making the whole faction
00:11:51.580 look bad,
00:11:53.020 still,
00:11:54.160 it's not in Caesar's interest
00:11:55.920 to completely throw him
00:11:57.420 under the bus.
00:11:58.480 That would divide the faction.
00:12:00.340 So Clodius is a powerful person
00:12:02.220 in a few different ways.
00:12:04.560 His family name,
00:12:06.100 he's rich,
00:12:06.740 his sway among the Popularis,
00:12:10.080 his sheer popularity
00:12:11.580 in the city,
00:12:13.180 you know,
00:12:13.460 it's not really an enemy
00:12:14.480 you want.
00:12:15.360 It's not an enemy
00:12:15.960 Caesar particularly
00:12:16.920 would want.
00:12:18.060 So Caesar is very,
00:12:18.980 very reluctant
00:12:19.660 to just throw Clodius
00:12:21.860 under the bus
00:12:22.460 to just give some sort
00:12:23.860 of witness statement
00:12:24.760 completely condemning him.
00:12:27.820 That's not going to be
00:12:28.540 a good look for Caesar.
00:12:29.920 So he sort of plays his cards
00:12:31.740 very close to his chest.
00:12:33.300 Caesar said he knew nothing
00:12:34.220 about the charges
00:12:35.460 against Clodius.
00:12:36.120 This seemed a most
00:12:37.500 surprising thing to say
00:12:38.760 and the prosecuting
00:12:40.160 counsel asked,
00:12:41.840 in that case,
00:12:42.800 why did you divorce
00:12:43.500 your wife?
00:12:44.240 If you know nothing
00:12:44.780 about it,
00:12:45.260 Caesar,
00:12:45.740 why would you divorce
00:12:46.980 your wife?
00:12:47.420 You know,
00:12:47.620 what's the problem?
00:12:48.780 Because,
00:12:49.420 said Caesar,
00:12:50.480 I considered that my wife
00:12:51.920 ought not to be even
00:12:53.160 suspected.
00:12:54.540 There are various
00:12:55.100 translations of that.
00:12:56.560 Caesar's wife must be
00:12:57.580 above suspicion
00:12:59.000 or beyond reproach.
00:13:00.940 There's all sorts
00:13:01.320 of different translations.
00:13:02.920 This particular
00:13:03.460 Penguin classic
00:13:04.260 is Rex Warner.
00:13:05.200 If you're interested
00:13:06.740 in that sort of thing,
00:13:08.020 Plutarch goes on,
00:13:09.240 some say that in giving
00:13:10.600 this evidence,
00:13:11.740 Caesar really meant
00:13:12.640 what he said.
00:13:13.820 According to others,
00:13:15.000 he was acting in order
00:13:16.120 to please the people
00:13:17.140 who were determined
00:13:18.140 to save Clodius.
00:13:19.740 At any rate,
00:13:20.880 Clodius was acquitted
00:13:21.780 of the charge.
00:13:23.140 Most of the jurymen
00:13:24.020 handed in their votes
00:13:25.100 in illegible writing
00:13:26.760 so that they might
00:13:27.920 avoid the risks
00:13:28.960 both of violence
00:13:29.960 from the people
00:13:30.640 if they condemned him
00:13:32.080 and of contempt
00:13:33.140 from the nobility
00:13:34.020 if they acquitted him.
00:13:35.620 So, end quote.
00:13:36.600 So there you can see
00:13:37.560 the jury
00:13:38.900 are absolutely
00:13:40.500 intimidated.
00:13:41.880 I mean,
00:13:42.060 it's pretty clear to me
00:13:43.060 that they find themselves
00:13:44.640 stuck between
00:13:45.200 a rock and a hard face
00:13:46.260 and aren't comfortable
00:13:47.460 to say the very least.
00:13:49.760 So Clodius gets away
00:13:50.860 with it, basically.
00:13:52.220 Very, very annoying.
00:13:53.900 Keep getting away.
00:13:54.540 Keep going to court.
00:13:55.840 Stand in trial
00:13:56.540 and getting away with it.
00:13:59.260 Okay, so that's
00:13:59.920 the Bonadio scandal.
00:14:01.480 Now we move on
00:14:02.200 to Caesar's
00:14:03.540 his career proper,
00:14:05.540 if you like,
00:14:06.320 when he becomes
00:14:07.600 a creator
00:14:08.580 and an imperator
00:14:10.340 and a governor
00:14:11.540 and consul
00:14:12.780 and so on.
00:14:13.320 So we're really getting
00:14:13.980 into the meat
00:14:15.220 of things now.
00:14:16.620 Plutarch goes on,
00:14:18.100 quote,
00:14:18.460 Directly after
00:14:19.360 his preatorship,
00:14:20.900 Caesar received
00:14:21.680 Spain as his province.
00:14:23.660 However,
00:14:24.260 he found it very difficult
00:14:25.200 to arrange matters
00:14:26.260 with his creditors
00:14:27.240 who tried to prevent
00:14:28.520 him leaving the city
00:14:29.540 and were extremely
00:14:30.740 importunate.
00:14:32.360 You know,
00:14:32.560 they say,
00:14:32.920 you owe us loads
00:14:33.860 of money,
00:14:35.020 Gaius Julius Caesar.
00:14:36.420 We're not just going
00:14:37.260 to let you go to Spain
00:14:38.280 for a few years.
00:14:40.040 We need money now.
00:14:42.700 Again,
00:14:42.940 the implication is
00:14:43.700 otherwise something
00:14:44.720 terrible is going
00:14:45.460 to happen to you.
00:14:46.700 Nice kneecaps
00:14:47.600 you've got there,
00:14:48.220 Caesar.
00:14:48.540 It'll be a shame
00:14:49.160 if anything happened
00:14:49.940 to them.
00:14:51.100 Sort of a thing.
00:14:53.600 Plutarch says,
00:14:54.600 he, Caesar,
00:14:55.460 therefore,
00:14:56.260 turned for help
00:14:56.980 to Crassus,
00:14:57.900 who was the richest
00:14:58.660 man in Rome
00:14:59.560 and who needed
00:15:00.820 Caesar's vigour
00:15:02.060 and fire
00:15:02.960 for carrying out
00:15:03.860 his own political
00:15:04.620 campaign against Pompey.
00:15:06.500 Crassus met the demands
00:15:07.500 of those creditors
00:15:08.820 who were most difficult
00:15:10.100 to deal with
00:15:10.780 and who would not
00:15:11.440 be put off any longer
00:15:12.360 and gave his personal
00:15:13.720 guarantee
00:15:14.180 for 830 talents
00:15:16.200 so Caesar was able
00:15:17.560 to set out
00:15:18.160 for his province.
00:15:19.500 End quote.
00:15:20.160 830 talents
00:15:21.060 is loads of money,
00:15:23.180 tons of money.
00:15:23.940 It'd be millions
00:15:24.500 of pounds
00:15:25.980 or dollars
00:15:26.540 in modern money.
00:15:29.060 It was really
00:15:30.180 a huge amount.
00:15:31.520 But there,
00:15:32.240 now you can see
00:15:33.040 that already
00:15:34.040 there's this
00:15:34.600 three-way
00:15:35.680 power balancing
00:15:37.080 thing
00:15:37.560 between Pompey
00:15:38.760 and Crassus
00:15:39.280 and Caesar.
00:15:40.740 It sort of
00:15:41.180 already started
00:15:41.960 or it really
00:15:42.600 starts there
00:15:43.380 really.
00:15:44.080 It would have
00:15:45.320 started at a lower
00:15:46.280 level already
00:15:46.920 but now
00:15:47.460 it's sort of
00:15:48.380 really a thing.
00:15:49.340 Crassus and Pompey,
00:15:50.680 if you remember
00:15:51.080 from the Crassus
00:15:51.680 episodes,
00:15:52.360 are already,
00:15:54.000 maybe they don't
00:15:54.820 necessarily hate
00:15:55.480 each other's guts
00:15:56.400 yet,
00:15:57.260 but they're
00:15:57.880 absolutely rivals.
00:15:59.240 Caesar's still
00:15:59.780 the new kid
00:16:00.380 on the block.
00:16:02.040 You know,
00:16:02.220 he's an important
00:16:02.780 person,
00:16:03.920 quickly becoming
00:16:04.680 much,
00:16:05.140 much more important,
00:16:05.840 but still
00:16:06.600 he's the
00:16:07.660 least powerful
00:16:08.920 of the three.
00:16:10.040 At this point,
00:16:10.700 at this exact point
00:16:11.520 in Roman political
00:16:12.860 history,
00:16:13.960 Crassus is
00:16:14.840 the older
00:16:15.900 man,
00:16:17.020 he's the
00:16:17.460 richest man,
00:16:18.840 his eloquence
00:16:20.180 as an orator
00:16:21.480 in the Senate
00:16:22.520 is unsurpassed
00:16:24.240 other than
00:16:24.620 perhaps by
00:16:25.220 Cicero
00:16:26.280 and Cato,
00:16:27.900 but he's a
00:16:28.400 much, much better
00:16:29.020 orator
00:16:29.500 and senator
00:16:30.360 and politician
00:16:31.020 than Pompey,
00:16:32.960 but Pompey
00:16:33.640 is the hero.
00:16:34.880 he is
00:16:36.140 the greatest
00:16:37.120 military man
00:16:38.120 by far.
00:16:40.180 He's literally
00:16:40.640 a hero
00:16:41.200 among men,
00:16:42.380 a living legend,
00:16:44.000 right?
00:16:44.300 So Cicero
00:16:45.340 and Cato
00:16:45.880 and Caesar
00:16:46.480 are important,
00:16:47.640 but the two
00:16:48.340 biggest fish
00:16:48.980 are easily
00:16:50.300 Crassus and Pompey
00:16:51.460 and they've shared
00:16:52.220 console ships
00:16:52.940 and not been able
00:16:53.820 to get anything
00:16:54.260 done,
00:16:55.360 so we're not
00:16:55.960 too far from now,
00:16:56.900 a few years
00:16:57.240 down the line,
00:16:58.400 their enmity
00:16:59.000 towards each other
00:16:59.940 becomes massive,
00:17:01.840 really sort of
00:17:02.480 starts ripping
00:17:03.180 the Republic apart.
00:17:04.140 at this point
00:17:05.240 still,
00:17:06.040 they're just
00:17:06.360 sort of
00:17:07.020 playing
00:17:07.480 underhand games
00:17:08.620 against each other
00:17:09.540 and just
00:17:10.860 playing political
00:17:12.060 games still,
00:17:13.840 trying to undermine
00:17:14.560 each other,
00:17:15.680 being catty
00:17:16.560 against each other,
00:17:18.100 undermining each
00:17:18.880 other's position,
00:17:20.120 doing all that
00:17:20.660 sort of thing
00:17:21.140 before it turns
00:17:22.120 into full-blown
00:17:23.000 civil strife
00:17:24.400 or mob warfare
00:17:25.820 or anything like that,
00:17:27.600 or before any
00:17:28.600 sort of triumvirate
00:17:29.680 is needed
00:17:30.540 to try and prevent
00:17:32.020 that sort of thing.
00:17:34.120 They're still just
00:17:35.100 kind of at each
00:17:35.920 other's throats.
00:17:36.420 Now,
00:17:36.600 Crassus obviously
00:17:37.380 makes the calculation
00:17:39.040 or is making
00:17:40.480 the ongoing calculation
00:17:42.060 that if he can get
00:17:43.840 as much support
00:17:44.700 from as many places
00:17:46.500 as possible
00:17:47.080 into his camp,
00:17:48.660 so to speak,
00:17:49.760 then he's obviously
00:17:51.280 denying Pompey that.
00:17:53.660 So he sees,
00:17:54.560 Crassus sees Caesar
00:17:55.500 as an up-and-coming,
00:17:56.800 correctly,
00:17:57.320 as an up-and-coming
00:17:58.140 power.
00:18:00.280 Caesar probably
00:18:01.120 will be a big beast
00:18:02.880 at some point,
00:18:03.880 or kind of already is,
00:18:05.500 right?
00:18:06.460 He's going to be
00:18:08.000 one of the most
00:18:09.420 important men
00:18:10.200 in Rome.
00:18:11.500 I mean,
00:18:11.700 he's already in the
00:18:12.300 top dozen or so,
00:18:13.500 but he's going to be
00:18:14.000 in the top half dozen.
00:18:15.700 He's going to be
00:18:16.020 in the top three
00:18:16.760 or four or five.
00:18:17.780 So Crassus is already
00:18:19.320 thinking,
00:18:20.280 you know,
00:18:20.540 I'll make him my boy.
00:18:22.920 I'll make him in debt,
00:18:24.540 literally,
00:18:25.400 money terms to me,
00:18:26.600 and also in my debt
00:18:28.440 politically,
00:18:29.740 and he'll be in my camp
00:18:31.080 and not Pompey's.
00:18:33.440 You know,
00:18:33.640 Crassus is an astute
00:18:34.620 politician,
00:18:35.440 and Pompey isn't.
00:18:36.280 Pompey,
00:18:37.120 I mean,
00:18:38.220 the extent to which
00:18:39.560 Pompey is naive,
00:18:40.880 people always argue about.
00:18:42.420 I happen to think
00:18:43.300 he is quite naive,
00:18:45.020 and we'll get into
00:18:45.920 that further
00:18:46.480 as the story goes on,
00:18:48.180 the extent to which
00:18:49.600 Pompey is naive,
00:18:50.600 politically.
00:18:52.300 So,
00:18:52.580 the thing is,
00:18:53.680 sometimes Pompey
00:18:54.880 isn't naive.
00:18:55.520 Sometimes he comes across
00:18:56.560 as he does know
00:18:57.560 what's going on,
00:18:58.280 and he is obviously
00:18:59.040 playing some sort of
00:19:00.420 3D chess,
00:19:01.260 and he isn't a complete
00:19:02.000 chump.
00:19:03.240 But then other times,
00:19:05.040 later,
00:19:05.600 further down the road,
00:19:06.520 after he's done something
00:19:07.440 quite cynical
00:19:08.680 and creative
00:19:10.800 and smart,
00:19:12.680 you know,
00:19:12.840 showing himself
00:19:13.500 that he's capable
00:19:14.060 of political machinations
00:19:15.780 and realpolitik
00:19:17.460 and all that sort of thing,
00:19:18.800 after that,
00:19:19.500 he then does something
00:19:20.340 or then shows
00:19:21.120 that he must have been
00:19:22.180 very, very naive.
00:19:23.400 He wasn't seeing
00:19:24.120 all the angles.
00:19:25.580 So,
00:19:25.940 you know,
00:19:26.820 you can argue,
00:19:27.520 definitely argue
00:19:28.580 all about the extent
00:19:30.140 to which Pompey is naive,
00:19:31.340 but on the whole,
00:19:32.980 by and large,
00:19:34.400 I am in the camp
00:19:35.300 that Pompey
00:19:36.600 usually
00:19:37.340 is quite naive,
00:19:39.760 but we'll get to that.
00:19:41.280 I'll let Plutarch
00:19:42.060 continue the story here
00:19:43.120 about Caesar
00:19:43.780 going to Spain.
00:19:44.840 He says,
00:19:46.220 quote,
00:19:46.460 there is a story
00:19:48.080 that while he was
00:19:48.860 crossing the Alps,
00:19:49.620 this is Caesar,
00:19:50.280 crossing the Alps
00:19:50.880 into Transalpine Gaul
00:19:52.500 on his way to Spain,
00:19:54.280 he came to a small
00:19:55.560 native village
00:19:56.380 with hardly any inhabitants
00:19:58.000 and altogether
00:19:59.500 a miserable looking place.
00:20:01.520 His friends were laughing
00:20:02.600 and joking about it,
00:20:03.640 saying,
00:20:04.600 no doubt here too
00:20:05.580 one would find people
00:20:06.980 pushing themselves forward
00:20:08.320 to gain office
00:20:09.220 and here too
00:20:10.320 there are struggles
00:20:11.280 to get the first place
00:20:12.480 and jealous rivalries
00:20:13.940 among the great men.
00:20:14.880 Caesar then said to them
00:20:16.680 in all seriousness,
00:20:18.140 as far as I am concerned,
00:20:19.640 I would rather be
00:20:20.340 the first man here
00:20:21.260 than second in Rome,
00:20:22.500 end quote.
00:20:24.340 It's an interesting
00:20:25.160 little anecdote.
00:20:26.220 There is that classic thing,
00:20:27.340 isn't there?
00:20:27.680 Would you rather be
00:20:28.660 a big fish in a small pond
00:20:30.460 or a small fish
00:20:31.600 in a big pond?
00:20:33.620 Some people,
00:20:34.440 some men
00:20:34.940 would answer,
00:20:36.180 I'd rather be
00:20:36.720 a big fish
00:20:37.500 in a small pond
00:20:38.060 because I can't stand
00:20:39.380 having anyone above me.
00:20:41.800 I would rather be
00:20:42.920 of less importance overall
00:20:44.160 if it meant
00:20:45.060 I get to be
00:20:45.980 top dog.
00:20:47.840 It speaks of an ego,
00:20:49.420 doesn't it?
00:20:50.920 It speaks of
00:20:51.980 an ambition
00:20:53.000 unbridled.
00:20:54.940 Would you rather be
00:20:55.760 Riker,
00:20:56.320 second in command
00:20:56.960 on the Enterprise
00:20:57.640 or captain
00:20:59.500 of a much,
00:21:00.140 much lesser
00:21:01.580 starship?
00:21:02.940 I've always thought
00:21:04.140 that I'd rather be
00:21:05.380 a smaller fish,
00:21:06.720 slightly smaller fish
00:21:07.560 in a bigger pond.
00:21:08.800 I want to play
00:21:09.760 at the biggest
00:21:10.380 table.
00:21:11.540 I want to be
00:21:12.340 involved in
00:21:12.900 the biggest
00:21:13.940 game,
00:21:14.760 even if it means
00:21:15.500 I don't necessarily
00:21:16.100 get to be
00:21:16.840 at the tippy top
00:21:18.200 of the mountain,
00:21:19.260 but that's just me.
00:21:20.760 It really is a
00:21:21.420 personal preference.
00:21:22.340 But it does usually
00:21:23.000 speak when people
00:21:23.840 insist on being
00:21:24.680 the biggest fish
00:21:25.600 in a small pond.
00:21:26.880 It's usually because
00:21:27.720 they sort of
00:21:29.620 can't stand
00:21:30.880 having,
00:21:32.380 not even anyone
00:21:33.340 above them,
00:21:34.040 but even any
00:21:34.660 rivals
00:21:35.300 equal with them.
00:21:36.840 Yeah,
00:21:37.120 I mean,
00:21:37.360 I tend to think
00:21:38.160 that's because
00:21:38.560 you've got a chip
00:21:39.640 on your shoulder
00:21:40.140 about something
00:21:40.720 or other.
00:21:41.960 Well,
00:21:42.400 I don't know.
00:21:43.240 I don't want to do
00:21:43.700 too much armchair
00:21:44.660 psychology stuff there.
00:21:45.740 But that's what
00:21:46.300 Plutarch tells us
00:21:47.700 Caesar said.
00:21:48.600 It does sort of
00:21:49.160 ring true,
00:21:49.680 almost,
00:21:50.560 it's almost too
00:21:51.180 perfect of an
00:21:51.900 anecdote,
00:21:52.280 isn't it?
00:21:53.700 That's exactly
00:21:54.380 the sort of thing
00:21:54.820 where modern
00:21:55.240 scholars say,
00:21:56.800 was that made up
00:21:57.940 after?
00:21:58.480 Is Plutarch
00:21:59.000 or somebody
00:21:59.560 adding that in
00:22:00.440 after?
00:22:01.620 Because it's a bit
00:22:02.220 perfect.
00:22:03.500 Because even when
00:22:04.140 Caesar was right
00:22:05.200 at the top
00:22:06.420 of the Roman
00:22:07.680 political game
00:22:08.900 of power,
00:22:09.640 you know,
00:22:10.400 he had to share
00:22:11.060 power with a couple
00:22:11.920 of others,
00:22:12.440 Crassus and Pompey,
00:22:13.600 and he couldn't
00:22:14.800 really stand it
00:22:15.820 in the end.
00:22:16.740 Well,
00:22:16.900 neither could Pompey
00:22:17.540 though.
00:22:18.120 It's not uncommon.
00:22:19.300 It's not uncommon,
00:22:20.100 is it?
00:22:21.120 A power sharing
00:22:22.500 thing,
00:22:23.800 a power sharing
00:22:24.460 settlement of
00:22:25.200 whatever description
00:22:26.040 doesn't always
00:22:26.960 hold together,
00:22:27.800 usually doesn't
00:22:28.480 hold together,
00:22:29.400 because someone,
00:22:30.760 someone's ego
00:22:31.560 can't deal with it.
00:22:33.100 To watch the full
00:22:34.140 video,
00:22:34.720 please become a
00:22:35.280 premium member
00:22:35.860 at
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00:22:39.640 塔
00:22:41.440 汗
00:22:41.640 and
00:22:41.920 塔
00:22:44.560 and
00:22:44.940 salt
00:22:45.600 happen
00:22:58.260 to the Max.