The Podcast of the Lotus Eaters - The Boyce of Reason

00:00:00.000 Hello and welcome to this very special interview where it is my pleasure to be speaking to Mr. Benjamin A. Boyce. How are you, sir?

00:00:06.960 Very good, Beau. How are you doing?

00:00:08.760 Fine, yeah. Mr. Conversations, the voice of reason.

00:00:11.880 Well, here we are. I made it out to London and you were very generous to offer me a trip to Swindon.

00:00:17.840 Well, I mean, you invited me to Swindon. I paid for it myself.

00:00:20.720 Quite a telling guy.

00:00:21.440 We'll reimburse you for that. We can do that.

00:00:22.820 Oh, yeah, right.

00:00:23.440 We can, certainly.

00:00:24.580 I'll do it right off of my test.

00:00:25.720 We will. The trains are stupidly expensive.

00:00:27.980 What's up with that?

00:00:28.840 Well, at least they're on time.

00:00:31.460 It's just a long story. It's ridiculous.

00:00:34.160 Yeah.

00:00:34.660 You can literally get a flight to Turkey for the price it costs to go to London, Nottingham or something. It's stupid.

00:00:41.640 Yeah.

00:00:41.960 But thanks for coming in.

00:00:43.280 Absolutely.

00:00:43.620 Really, really appreciate it.

00:00:45.060 If anyone doesn't know, we've made a fair few bits of content over the years.

00:00:48.340 What, four or five different long-form bits?

00:00:49.940 Probably four. We've been going through various aspects of American history.

00:00:54.000 We did the War of 1812. We've done Jefferson.

00:00:58.020 Hamilton.

00:00:58.420 And Hamilton and Ulysses S. Grant.

00:01:00.860 That's right.

00:01:01.320 So far.

00:01:02.480 And I'm hoping to get the progressive era if you ever want to do something on what led up to pre-Franklin Roosevelt and how that.

00:01:09.920 Oh, okay.

00:01:10.520 Right.

00:01:10.980 Or whatever else you're interested in.

00:01:12.540 It's always deep, deep, beautiful dives that you bring on the channel.

00:01:16.800 Thank you.

00:01:17.540 You flatter me, Seth.

00:01:18.700 No, anything you want to do.

00:01:20.240 If there's any particular thing you're interested in, whatever it is, you know, like Daniel Boone, the Hiroshima thing, the Nixon tapes, whatever you want.

00:01:30.080 Okay.

00:01:30.400 So if you're interested in sort of the pre-war 30s, pre-Rosevelt, Roosevelt stuff.

00:01:37.720 I think it'd be really interesting.

00:01:38.920 I think that what we're experiencing being dismantled right now was put in motion by the progressive era.

00:01:46.520 Like what Trump is breaking apart was solidified by FDR, but it was put in motion by the progressive era, by the academics, the experts, the rule of the experts kind of thing in government, in the U.S. government.

00:02:00.300 And I don't know what's going to happen in the future, but with America withdrawing its soft power from Europe, I'm wondering how, if Europe's going to be able to correct itself from certain aspects of the progressive era that you guys are experiencing with massive immigration, multiculturalism, left-wing media that apparently is mostly funded by us.

00:02:22.760 With Trump 2.0, it's now pretty apparent that we, Europe and Britain, particularly Britain, are just way behind the curve now.

00:02:32.940 Well, you guys have a direction to go in, I guess.

00:02:35.460 Yeah.

00:02:35.780 You know it's possible, maybe.

00:02:37.700 Yeah.

00:02:38.460 And I'll take that.

00:02:39.180 Well, let's see.

00:02:39.920 Hopefully, maybe if Le Pen can get in in France, AFD can get in in Germany, if we can get reform or even someone more right than them.

00:02:47.760 Yeah.

00:02:47.900 Yeah, hopefully, Trump, and if it's sort of advanced presidency after that, hopefully they can sort of show us something to aim towards.

00:02:58.200 I'm hoping, you know.

00:02:59.380 Is reform just kind of the conservative-conservative coalition?

00:03:03.620 Do you think that they have, are they particularly strong?

00:03:07.500 I was just at this ARC conference, which was kind of a big tent, conservative, classical, liberal-ish umbrella.

00:03:17.900 And there wasn't anybody making really strong statements.

00:03:21.100 Nobody, there was no real leadership there.

00:03:23.080 There was a couple of kooky ideas and kind of, Farage was there.

00:03:28.200 He was interviewed by Jordan Peterson, but he was very political on what he would say and what he wouldn't say.

00:03:33.560 So I'm wondering if you guys have any blustery, Trump-ish, king-like personalities that might...

00:03:43.460 Not really.

00:03:44.340 There are parties that are ever so slightly more conservative or right-leaning than reform.

00:03:50.100 There's the English Democrats, there's UKIP, there's the Homeland Party.

00:03:53.900 There are some, but they're sort of small, still small outfits.

00:03:57.600 But I don't know if you're aware of my history with reform, so I might not be the best person in the world to ask

00:04:06.860 because I'm going to have to give you quite a personal take on it.

00:04:10.660 But for me, they're not anywhere near strong enough.

00:04:13.600 But that's just my take.

00:04:16.180 They are still going to be way better than a Starmer government.

00:04:18.980 Of course, of course they are.

00:04:20.100 But for me, they're not strong enough.

00:04:22.180 Like you say, some people in the party are right, like Rupert Lowe is good, but I don't think,

00:04:28.900 personally, I don't think Nigel Farage and Richard Tice's leadership is strong enough,

00:04:33.680 or their rhetoric is strong enough.

00:04:34.700 For example, they were asked, Nigel was asked very specifically about re-migration.

00:04:39.760 Which is deportation?

00:04:41.120 Yeah, yeah.

00:04:42.260 Why did they invent a new word for that?

00:04:44.120 Maybe it's an older word.

00:04:45.120 Yeah, it's not a new word.

00:04:46.380 It's just another word for the same thing.

00:04:48.100 And he essentially just said, no, we can't do that.

00:04:52.380 It's politically impossible.

00:04:54.740 Well, who knows what's politically possible and impossible?

00:04:57.680 Yeah.

00:04:58.540 No, historically, the forced mass movements of people is very, very common.

00:05:03.700 In fact, it happens all the time.

00:05:05.520 Pakistan deported nearly all their Afghans very recently.

00:05:08.660 Russia deported loads and loads of Chechens recently.

00:05:11.940 It's not completely weird or odd.

00:05:14.220 Just because the Nazis deported lots of people, what they considered undesirable people during the war,

00:05:21.260 it means it's completely evil and should never, ever be attempted ever again.

00:05:24.660 No, no, no, no.

00:05:25.920 If there's a big population in your country who are subversive or even destroying the fabric of your society,

00:05:32.500 you should be able to deport them.

00:05:34.240 But, and so UKIP and Homeland will talk about that sort of thing.

00:05:39.520 AFD talk about it.

00:05:41.220 Le Pen talk about it.

00:05:42.300 But for Nigel Farage at reform, apparently it's impossible.

00:05:46.200 Yeah.

00:05:46.300 I mean, I don't know if you know, but I was briefly selected to stand for them in Parliament

00:05:51.720 and then deselected because they then discovered something I'd written about re-migration

00:05:57.260 and it was too strong.

00:05:58.560 Too strong.

00:05:58.920 It was too spicy for them.

00:05:59.980 Yeah.

00:06:01.520 So, for me, reform isn't strong enough.

00:06:04.460 But it is, of course, I won't deny, it is still a step in the right direction.

00:06:08.620 Yeah.

00:06:08.780 I'm not denying that.

00:06:10.120 Yeah.

00:06:11.120 It's still going to be way better than Lib Dem or even the Conservative government under

00:06:14.960 Baden-Lock or anything.

00:06:15.800 But anyway, hopefully Trump will show us the way.

00:06:18.180 Well, the...

00:06:19.260 Because Trump's going to be deporting loads of people, right?

00:06:21.400 Well, we'll see.

00:06:22.600 I mean, some people are saying it's not happening quick enough, but who knows what needs to be

00:06:26.780 ramped up.

00:06:27.620 But when you talk about incrementalism, it always favours the left.

00:06:31.640 It always favours entropy.

00:06:33.380 It never favours order.

00:06:35.220 Order needs to be established, like making a movie by committee.

00:06:39.380 Like, it's just going to fall apart in the end.

00:06:41.940 You need a strong central authority that creates order.

00:06:46.140 And then everybody else can live within that order.

00:06:48.020 I don't see, like, an incrementalism.

00:06:50.260 Like, we're going to get a little bit more right now, and then we're going to get a little

00:06:53.140 bit more right later, and then we're going to get even righter further on down the line.

00:06:56.580 Other than maybe the Overton window being shifted a little bit, maybe the specter of

00:07:02.160 Hitler kind of becoming more particular to a part of history that is no longer governing

00:07:08.180 the minds and the hearts of people in the present that live in this reality, that might

00:07:13.320 free up people to make more common sense decisions.

00:07:16.080 Even if the common sense isn't necessarily aligned with something a little bit more strong,

00:07:21.980 like deporting or re-migrating people who've been here, what, 10 years, 20 years, a generation,

00:07:28.400 and then figuring out where to cut off that line.

00:07:32.300 Yeah.

00:07:32.900 I mean, you talk about there, the Overton window.

00:07:34.720 I mean, you mentioned just before we started that maybe you'd like to have a conversation

00:07:38.900 with an academic agent, because you spoke to him before on your channel.

00:07:42.180 Yeah, yeah.

00:07:42.500 It was a very interesting conversation, actually.

00:07:44.160 But he talked about or coined the phrase of the boomer truth regime, another way perhaps

00:07:48.640 of saying the post-war consensus.

00:07:51.320 The idea that the Overton window, if it shifts at all, is always to the left, and that there

00:07:57.920 will have to be some sort of realigning of that at some point.

00:08:01.280 Yeah.

00:08:01.840 That can't go on forever.

00:08:03.440 Yeah.

00:08:03.640 If that is left to go on forever, you end up without a country.

00:08:07.540 Yeah.

00:08:07.980 You end up with a massive welfare system and open borders.

00:08:10.540 Yeah.

00:08:10.900 Which very, very quickly leads to the destruction of your country.

00:08:13.920 Yeah.

00:08:14.280 And that people, it seems, the majority of people, don't want that.

00:08:18.200 You don't think that...

00:08:19.060 Well, that's the big question.

00:08:20.360 Where is the political will?

00:08:22.040 Where is the democratic, insofar as democracy is viable, where is the democratic will to

00:08:28.740 make England, England again?

00:08:30.900 Or make Britain, English again?

00:08:32.740 Maybe that was something that was going around on Twitter about what defines an Englishman

00:08:36.900 and what defines a Britishman, or one of British persuasion.

00:08:41.540 Right.

00:08:42.260 Yeah, yeah.

00:08:42.960 I mean, they're all very interesting and complicated things.

00:08:46.140 Well, I mean, if you look at reform, they seem to be, well, in some polls, they are

00:08:50.200 leading.

00:08:51.000 Mm-hmm.

00:08:51.880 So according to some polls, they are the most popular party.

00:08:55.740 And although they're still weak on re-migration, as far as I'm concerned, they are at least

00:09:00.260 patriotic light, at least.

00:09:04.040 Mm-hmm.

00:09:04.500 Right?

00:09:04.740 A lot of them talk about how you shouldn't be ashamed to be British or English.

00:09:09.420 So this sort of, the stripe of progressivism, which sees any type of patriotism or nationalism

00:09:17.580 as just pure evil, they're not that, right?

00:09:20.920 At least.

00:09:21.380 Mm-hmm.

00:09:21.680 So, because the argument a lot of people have made is that, no, most people do want

00:09:28.480 their country to be flooded by foreigners.

00:09:30.240 Just look at how they've voted over the last 30 or 40 years.

00:09:33.860 Well, that doesn't make sense on a couple of levels.

00:09:36.380 Least of all is that most governments, ever since the 60s, certainly since the 70s, have

00:09:40.920 said they won't do it.

00:09:42.100 And then they go back on that and do it anyway.

00:09:43.800 Mm-hmm.

00:09:44.720 Right?

00:09:45.160 Certainly in the last 20 years.

00:09:46.700 Same with Canada.

00:09:47.900 The massive immigration in Canada was not ever voted for.

00:09:52.640 No one asked for that.

00:09:53.400 Yeah.

00:09:53.600 Nobody ever asked for that.

00:09:54.720 Well, we weren't asked.

00:09:55.860 And, well, I wonder, with the dying of the boomer truth regime, with the dying of the

00:10:01.860 post-war consensus, something has to come in and replace it.

00:10:05.340 There has to be an understanding, a visceral understanding of what is an Englishman.

00:10:11.000 What is the British identity?

00:10:13.380 And in America, American identity has been formed in the wake of wars.

00:10:19.600 Our Revolutionary War, our Civil War, and then World War II is like these big concrescences

00:10:24.220 of identity.

00:10:26.580 You know, after World War II, we are basically the leaders of the free world.

00:10:31.960 We are the strongest economy.

00:10:33.600 We're really proud.

00:10:34.680 We have this thing called the American dream.

00:10:36.480 And our job is to make sure that the world runs correctly and spends U.S. dollars doing

00:10:43.380 so.

00:10:44.380 With the dismantling of the deep state and the Trumpist kind of, he's being pretty overt.

00:10:54.080 He's quoting Napoleon now.

00:10:55.560 They tweeted out a picture with him with a crown on his head.

00:11:01.460 And absent of war, we still need some sort of strong identity.

00:11:05.120 I don't know what we're talking about here today, but I would really like to hear what

00:11:10.100 you think about British identity post-World War II and where that might lead you guys

00:11:16.020 now.

00:11:16.620 Like, what does it mean to be British?

00:11:19.260 I was just walking down Manchester Street, and I think your channel is going to be putting

00:11:22.680 out a little documentary on the ground here where you guys do this show, which is rather

00:11:27.560 right-leaning.

00:11:28.260 But if you walk around the corner here, there's this place that has definitely been built by

00:11:34.480 British people.

00:11:36.120 And it's older buildings, but it's completely staffed or lived in by Pakistanis, I guess.

00:11:44.060 The church is a mosque.

00:11:45.780 You know, like what I love to do when I go to Europe is go to visit the church.

00:11:48.580 I'm like, oh, there's a church.

00:11:49.280 It's a mosque, so I don't know if I'd even be allowed in there.

00:11:55.220 But, you know, like where you would suppose there was a tobacco shop is now a vape shop

00:11:59.140 and all the advertisements are showing this identity that isn't of this land.

00:12:06.260 So I'm wondering, like, with that around the corner, how does that affect the psyche of

00:12:11.020 people growing up here?

00:12:12.440 And what is it?

00:12:13.720 What is the story of what it is to be a British person?

00:12:17.920 I don't even know.

00:12:18.820 When you talk about the psyche, it's extremely demoralizing and alien.

00:12:23.900 And we were never asked for it.

00:12:25.140 No one wanted that.

00:12:26.160 In fact, we've explicitly said we don't want it ever since the 1960s.

00:12:30.140 Yeah, it's just a foreign enclave.

00:12:33.060 Yeah, and it's nearly every town and city in the whole country.

00:12:35.840 Really?

00:12:36.420 Yeah.

00:12:36.640 When we flew here, we flew into Heathrow and we took the tube underground and then we

00:12:44.080 popped up.

00:12:44.760 And the only thing I saw of London was just indistinguishable from Chicago.

00:12:50.080 Just this multi-ethnic kind of rundown place with no particularity to it.

00:12:54.360 Just a bunch of, there's kind of some older buildings, but most of it is just this kind

00:12:58.080 of rundown.

00:12:59.920 And I really have felt the demoralization of this place.

00:13:03.100 Nobody really cares to pick up the trash.

00:13:05.200 Nobody really cares to renovate, but they'll rebuild, they'll build something new.

00:13:10.840 And that newness is like indescript, globalist, everything is like an airport that is new

00:13:16.820 here.

00:13:17.220 Everything old is kind of unkempt a little bit.

00:13:20.420 Maybe I'm being too strong and I don't want to offend you.

00:13:23.080 No, no, no.

00:13:23.520 The thing about, no, of course not.

00:13:24.080 No, no.

00:13:24.320 The thing about that, like when you see, we see footage of somewhere like San Francisco

00:13:28.520 being completely unkempt.

00:13:32.500 Yeah.

00:13:32.660 Well, it's not been that way all that long.

00:13:36.020 But if you go back 10, 15 years, it never used to be the case.

00:13:39.820 Why is it suddenly now?

00:13:40.840 It's a great question.

00:13:41.840 I mean, one of the reasons in Britain, at least, is that the councils often are run by

00:13:45.900 the same foreign people and they don't seem to care or they mismanage the budget terribly.

00:13:52.160 I saw a clip just on Twitter.

00:13:52.960 So there was like Chinatown in London in like the year 2005 and now.

00:13:57.480 And one is the way it always used to be, i.e. well-kempt and clean and tidy.

00:14:02.220 And now in 2025, it's just looked like something from San Francisco, just a complete dump.

00:14:08.280 I don't, it's so hard to have pride in your country when your country's trashy.

00:14:13.080 Actually, that shows a disrespect towards your country when it's trashy.

00:14:17.300 Loads of shops boarded up.

00:14:18.940 Yeah.

00:14:19.320 And looking broken down.

00:14:21.140 It hasn't been that way very long.

00:14:22.800 Yeah.

00:14:23.000 When I was a child or even when I was in my 20s, that wasn't really the case.

00:14:27.600 So all this is happening recently, I would say.

00:14:31.280 I met Edward Dutton at this conference I was at and he said, you know, I'm okay with change

00:14:36.140 happening in my lifetime, but over half a decade, that's way too much.

00:14:39.840 Yeah.

00:14:40.720 But when you talk sort of the English identity, yeah, I always think that that's the sort of

00:14:47.380 question that usually it just leads down the road of subversion.

00:14:54.260 Usually if you're a born and bred British person, you don't even need to ask the question.

00:14:58.520 You've got more than a thousand years of glorious tradition to look back upon.

00:15:02.940 Right.

00:15:03.520 It's only since the war, World War II, I mean, where there's ever been a question.

00:15:08.540 Hmm.

00:15:09.220 Right.

00:15:09.500 We used to have, and again, I'm talking in the first half of the 20th century or whatever,

00:15:13.020 used to have an extremely strong sense of identity, extremely strong.

00:15:19.100 It seemed unassailable, you would have thought, if you'd asked someone pre-1914 what it means

00:15:24.940 to be an Englishman, what it means to be British.

00:15:27.900 Yeah.

00:15:28.200 They probably would have snorted with derision at the very question.

00:15:31.140 Yeah.

00:15:31.580 But now, of course.

00:15:32.560 They exuded Britishness, like in how they comported themselves.

00:15:35.560 But now, of course, there's a million and one things you could point to.

00:15:37.880 But now, of course, ever since, well, perhaps more since the 60s and the 70s, where there's

00:15:46.100 a type of almost a civilizational level of a falling confidence where now questions like

00:15:54.220 that creep in.

00:15:55.560 And if you've got a whole, a whole trunch of fifth columnists that are constantly trying

00:16:02.120 to undermine you as well, then suddenly the question seems a poignant one.

00:16:09.440 Well, I don't even think it is.

00:16:11.920 I don't really need to answer the question.

00:16:14.400 Okay.

00:16:14.940 You know, it's self-evident what is, who is and who isn't an Englishman, what is and what

00:16:20.760 isn't British.

00:16:22.080 It's not even really a question to me.

00:16:24.340 But then, you know, subversives do just endlessly say that.

00:16:28.980 They'll go further and say that you have no heritage, you have no culture.

00:16:33.500 We talked to you just before we came on here about Westminster Abbey.

00:16:37.040 Don't tell me there's no culture.

00:16:39.020 Don't tell me we haven't got any history or heritage.

00:16:41.940 Absolute disgusting nonsense.

00:16:44.220 But as you say, for going forward, for younger people, for like the Zuma generations or whatever,

00:16:49.160 it has become an actual question.

00:16:52.780 And I mean, what a crying shame that it even needs to be addressed.

00:16:56.380 It's similar to the thing of, similar-ish, conceptually, to the idea that the very concept

00:17:03.000 of what a man and a woman is, is now under question.

00:17:06.540 It's like, no, it isn't.

00:17:08.260 No, actually, it's not at all.

00:17:11.020 That's nonsense.

00:17:12.740 That's weirdo, subversive, commie nonsense.

00:17:14.960 Now, I'm not having it.

00:17:16.120 It's not actually a question.

00:17:18.420 But there you go.

00:17:20.000 I think there is that thousand years of glorious tradition, as I said, to point to.

00:17:25.880 What, what, um, this, you're talking about a thousand years.

00:17:29.820 So what defines that thousand, thousands of years?

00:17:32.760 Was it political upheaval or innovation or expansion?

00:17:38.500 Like, what is, what is the, what is the heart, the beating heart, the changing heart of Britain

00:17:44.020 over that thousand years?

00:17:45.060 Well, that term, a thousand years of glorious tradition, is almost a cliche.

00:17:49.300 They're obviously referring to the Norman conquest onwards.

00:17:52.040 But the story of the British people, the story of Britain, of these islands, obviously goes

00:17:57.640 back much, much further than the Norman conquest.

00:18:00.380 I mean, the Anglo-Saxon period, the Roman period.

00:18:02.640 You can go back to the early Bellbeaker people.

00:18:05.360 You can point to Stonehenge.

00:18:07.160 You can point to stone megaliths older than Stonehenge.

00:18:10.060 You can point back to peoples that were on these islands hundreds of thousands of years

00:18:15.800 ago, when there was no channel, when there was still a land bridge between Europe and

00:18:20.180 England.

00:18:20.600 So, so just like anywhere in the world, it has a contiguous story.

00:18:26.500 We can point to it almost anywhere.

00:18:27.800 You can point to Scandinavia.

00:18:29.240 You can point to peoples and cultures that were in the United States, the Clovis people,

00:18:33.960 the pre-Clovis era people.

00:18:35.480 Yeah.

00:18:35.900 That go back.

00:18:36.540 That you can't, well, you can, people do, but I would say it's invalid to come over

00:18:41.180 from the Caribbean or West Africa or Puerto Rico and come to the mainland United States

00:18:48.040 and say, you have no history or heritage or culture, or it's all based on liars or something.

00:18:54.240 It's like, no, there were native people here, Native American peoples, or like Clovis era,

00:18:59.080 pre-Clovis era people, going back to time immemorial, going back to when there was a land

00:19:03.620 bridge across the Daring Straits.

00:19:04.820 It's, it's just a, it's an ahistorical thing that people that want to destroy your culture

00:19:10.220 or your society will try and pull that trick.

00:19:15.640 Yeah.

00:19:16.160 And it's, it's up to us to say, to stand up against it and say, no, all of that is nonsense.

00:19:22.460 Now we see what you're doing.

00:19:24.380 We see what you're doing and we're not going to have it.

00:19:26.460 But yeah, if you talk about just the thousand years, if you want to just start at the normal conquest.

00:19:31.860 Well, isn't that a history of incursions and people coming over, like the Romans came over

00:19:35.580 and found a bunch of swamp people, I think, Caesar, somebody, somebody was talking about that.

00:19:39.940 I think Carl Benjamin was memeing about that.

00:19:43.840 So I might be wrong about that one of those.

00:19:45.720 Well, I've done a fair bit of content about Caesar's conquest and Caesar's incursions into Britain in 55 and 54 BC.

00:19:52.500 But I'm just saying part of the story is being incurred upon, is, is being overwhelmed by some foreign force and then a reintegration happens.

00:20:01.500 So I'm wondering if this is not just the latest Roman conquest, it's just oddly done by like this invading force that is, that somehow your, your rulers are supplanting.

00:20:12.220 Of course, there's always been waves and movements of people.

00:20:15.000 Yeah.

00:20:15.360 Of course.

00:20:15.740 And that's true of, again, everywhere in the world.

00:20:18.140 But so, but what's happening to us at the moment, or what's the trend that has started in 1997, i.e. just mass immigration into this country, that is entirely unprecedented.

00:20:29.880 So if you look at the Roman invasion, for example, a tiny number of Romans compared to the 700,000, 900,000 million odd people we import year on year here.

00:20:42.920 So what happened, what the Romans did was a tiny amount.

00:20:45.720 And in the end, they left.

00:20:48.140 And in the end, they all left in 409 or 410 BC.

00:20:51.800 They left some roads behind.

00:20:52.800 They all left.

00:20:53.520 If you look at the, the Anglo-Saxon and Jewish invasions, they only, it was only really on the east coast of Britain and it was, it was limited.

00:21:04.420 And once again, tiny numbers compared to what's happening today.

00:21:08.100 If you look at the Viking incursions, once again, it's not that they didn't leave an imprint on the land or on the language in all sorts of ways on the architecture.

00:21:16.360 But the numbers were tiny and it was over a very, quite a long period.

00:21:20.440 It was over centuries.

00:21:21.020 And again, in the end, we're expelled.

00:21:24.020 And there's lots more examples.

00:21:28.500 Sometimes people who are pro-mass migration might mention like a wave of Dutch immigration that came in, in like the 18th century.

00:21:41.160 Oh, sorry, 17th, 16th, 17th century.

00:21:44.520 It's a few thousand people, a few tens of thousands of people at most.

00:21:48.840 It's not hundreds of thousands of people year on year that never leave, that never go home or don't intend to.

00:21:55.100 So, yeah, there's always been waves of migration and re-migration and movements of people.

00:22:00.020 That has always been the case.

00:22:00.940 Go back to the era of Stonehenge, when there were sort of original Neolithic farmer people seem to have been invaded by European Bell Beaker culture people.

00:22:13.700 So there's always been movements of people to and from these islands.

00:22:17.280 But nothing ever on the scale of what's happened since 1997 or has been ramped up in the last few years.

00:22:25.100 The Boris wave, people are calling it now and all those things.

00:22:28.340 That's unprecedented.

00:22:29.160 That is truly a passive ethnic cleansing.

00:22:34.500 Like what you said about Manchester Road in Swindon or any town or city up and down the country.

00:22:38.580 You're suddenly in a foreign enclave.

00:22:40.480 That wasn't the case 10, 15 years ago.

00:22:43.120 It's happened very suddenly and on a scale never experienced before.

00:22:47.060 Is there like an economic purpose for that?

00:22:49.480 A failure, a pre-failure, like a pre-demoralization of leadership?

00:22:54.120 Like, why?

00:22:56.680 It's a very difficult question.

00:22:58.360 Yeah, so there's all these different reasons why.

00:23:01.000 And I mean, we've got very strict laws in this country.

00:23:03.800 If I gave you my real opinion of why, I might fall foul of some...

00:23:08.360 I might not be able to leave because they put me in prison.

00:23:12.640 Throw you in the clink for hearing me speak the truth.

00:23:16.500 No, I mean, well, it's because our ruling classes have been traitorous.

00:23:22.140 They genuinely thought Tony Blair and some of his governments wanted to, and it's literally a quote,

00:23:28.060 rub our noses in diversity.

00:23:29.920 They still try to make the argument, even now, don't they, that diversity is a strength,

00:23:34.740 that our very economy will collapse unless we import hundreds of thousands of low-skilled people that hate our values.

00:23:42.620 It doesn't make any sense.

00:23:44.120 It's purely traitorous and treasonous.

00:23:47.240 Why is it?

00:23:49.840 I mean, the same in the United States or in Canada.

00:23:51.820 Why has the Trudeau government decided to import so many foreign people?

00:23:57.320 Yeah.

00:23:57.960 Why?

00:23:58.700 I mean, if you've got an answer for that, it would be the same reason.

00:24:02.040 It's because there's a cabal of people with shadowy motivations that are doing it against the will of the people.

00:24:09.820 That's the answer, isn't it?

00:24:10.900 Mm-hmm.

00:24:11.160 Surely that is the answer.

00:24:13.280 At some level, one could suppose, I think, I don't want to reveal who was telling me about this,

00:24:19.680 but they were just riffing about how maybe because Britain went around and colonized the world,

00:24:24.900 this is kind of some sort of comeuppance.

00:24:27.140 Oh, it's revenge.

00:24:28.160 Yeah, revenge.

00:24:28.600 It's intergenerational revenge.

00:24:29.760 But the people who colonized the world were the elite,

00:24:31.760 and the people who were colonized Britain are the same people, the same elite.

00:24:34.500 So it's the elite that are doing this, not the British people.

00:24:36.880 The British people didn't sign up for either of this.

00:24:39.980 I'm sure they benefited from colonization, and that's a big topic with a lot more nuance

00:24:45.540 than I see willfully discussed about on Reddit, of all places.

00:24:50.940 That argument is flawed and disgusting on a number of levels.

00:24:55.840 Could you set loose on that?

00:24:58.100 Are you legally obligated?

00:24:59.480 Yeah, I mean, I could say a number of things about that.

00:25:00.960 First of all, so if that is the rationale, i.e. it's a revenge for colonialism or for the empire,

00:25:07.320 okay, so what, two wrongs do make a right, do they?

00:25:09.260 If it was wrong for us to have an empire and colonize countries, other places in the world,

00:25:14.840 if that was morally repugnant in the first place.

00:25:17.520 But it's not now, it's happening to us.

00:25:19.700 And again, children aren't guilty of the crimes of their parents.

00:25:23.340 So even if our great, even if you do think that our, which I don't,

00:25:26.200 but even if you did think that our great-grandparents and great-great-grandparents

00:25:29.240 did something wrong, still, we now are not guilty of those crimes.

00:25:34.640 So it's completely unjust to do that.

00:25:38.060 That argument I have a hard time with because I can see it being rejiggered.

00:25:41.340 I mean, I agree with it, but I could just see like a counter that the kids who are born here of immigrants,

00:25:48.840 they shouldn't be punished for the sins of their parents.

00:25:51.440 Their parents came over here illegally, maybe, but the child shouldn't have to suffer

00:25:56.160 from, you know, deportation or re-immigration, which still feels a little Orwellian to me.

00:26:02.820 And similarly, the people who are, who were born in Pakistan, they don't, this is very Rawlsian.

00:26:08.540 They don't deserve the inefficiencies or the inaction of their parents.

00:26:14.900 But the case is that our forefathers do establish the conditions under which we have to deal with, right?

00:26:22.300 So not necessarily the sins of our fathers, but to an extent the productivity or the laziness of our fathers, we do have to.

00:26:31.760 Well, if you look at, I'll give two examples of the British Raj in India,

00:26:35.740 when the British actually had government, controlled government in India.

00:26:38.880 Or if you look at white South Africans in South Africa, in both those cases, when the government falls,

00:26:46.940 the native populations then do expel them, even if they were born there,

00:26:53.160 even if they're third, fourth, fifth generation.

00:26:55.100 Now, you're not welcome anymore.

00:26:57.160 Now, if you do stay, we'll start murdering you.

00:27:00.340 Okay, so I'm not saying that's good.

00:27:04.240 You're not saying two wrongs make a right.

00:27:06.060 No, no, absolutely I'm not.

00:27:07.080 No, no, no, no, no, no, no.

00:27:08.180 But I'm saying there's historical precedent for that.

00:27:11.420 Why is it a unique situation in Britain that you can't have your country back after being essentially invaded?

00:27:18.080 I use the word passive ethnic cleansing.

00:27:20.820 If you go to some of the big cities in, you know, all over London, all over Britain, you know, Blackburn,

00:27:27.420 there's all the cities, basically.

00:27:31.700 They're our cities.

00:27:33.300 Why should we not have them back?

00:27:34.680 The people came here against our will.

00:27:38.700 Well, then perhaps they can go back against theirs.

00:27:40.700 Now, that might sound like an extremely authoritarian, extremely harsh idea or policy.

00:27:45.980 But there it is.

00:27:47.340 There it is.

00:27:47.920 It's that or you lose your country for all time.

00:27:51.640 Yeah.

00:27:51.820 Well, you end up in a balkanization state.

00:27:54.100 You end up in what's happening in South Africa.

00:27:56.160 You end up with a nightmare like that.

00:27:59.580 A nightmare.

00:28:01.440 I mean, what's it going to be?

00:28:03.180 Yeah.

00:28:03.620 When you set a country or down a path like that.

00:28:06.340 I didn't realize we'd be talking about all this.

00:28:07.940 I thought we'd talk about your channel and the interviews you've done.

00:28:10.180 No, I'm thinking about this because I walked through Manchester Street and I just saw like

00:28:17.320 every brick, every house, every roof shingle, it's all falling apart.

00:28:23.740 Every single thing is falling apart.

00:28:25.860 And then you bring to mind South Africa.

00:28:29.660 And not only is it naturally falling apart, but they're actively breaking apart roads.

00:28:34.920 So at some point, when law and order are eroded, because there's too many people that don't

00:28:41.380 believe or don't have a consensus to follow that rule of law, then that natural entropy

00:28:46.980 accelerates into open entropy.

00:28:50.780 And what you were saying earlier before we started about, was it Serbia, the Balkans?

00:28:56.820 You know, like eventually there is going to be internecine racial conflict.

00:29:00.780 And eventually the native Britons are going to either have to move out, stand their ground

00:29:07.440 or actively pursue deportation, if not retaliatory violence, which nobody wants.

00:29:15.780 Assumably nobody wants that.

00:29:18.920 No, absolutely.

00:29:19.560 Yeah.

00:29:19.860 I mean, that's one of the things I said in the piece I wrote, which got me deselected from

00:29:24.400 reform.

00:29:24.980 I said I was calling for mass remigration or mass deportations.

00:29:27.860 But I said explicitly, it needs to be bloodless or as bloodless as possible.

00:29:32.520 It needs to pour as little shame on us as possible.

00:29:38.200 Yeah, absolutely.

00:29:38.980 I don't want a Yugoslavian war in England.

00:29:44.380 And I mentioned what happened with the breakup of Yugoslavia, where you've got Croats and Serbs

00:29:49.860 and Albanians and Kosovars and just a multicultural, multi-religious, multi-ethnic mishmash.

00:29:56.840 And they all just start ethnically cleansing each other.

00:29:59.720 I don't want that.

00:30:00.980 I don't want that future for Britain.

00:30:03.340 Does that make me a Nazi?

00:30:05.140 Does that make me a crazy bigot?

00:30:06.880 Does that make me a far-right fantasist that I see that down the road and I don't want it?

00:30:12.460 Well, it does seem that that's the way it's going, that you get bigger and bigger foreign

00:30:17.560 enclaves and smaller and smaller, almost certainly rural, native enclaves.

00:30:22.660 And at what point does it all spark off and go crazy like what happened in Yugoslavia in

00:30:28.000 the 1990s?

00:30:29.100 How many rapes do we have to suffer?

00:30:33.280 How many murders?

00:30:34.440 How many, how many, yeah, along racial and ethnic lines?

00:30:38.700 How many terrorist incidents do there have to be before it explodes into a Yugoslavia,

00:30:46.360 1990s Serbia thing?

00:30:48.520 You know, I think when one thinks of Britain, so I'm from the West Coast and my exposure

00:30:54.000 to British culture is mostly through movies, some through music.

00:30:57.540 While I was walking around, I put on Dark Side of the Moon, Pink Floyd album.

00:31:02.120 It was this interesting kind of vibe, like exchange with that.

00:31:07.200 But, you know, I think of why, why the elite or the upper middle class British person would

00:31:14.820 allow this to happen and not, you know, not disturb anything, disturb the peace.

00:31:19.200 Because there's this prevailing politeness, British politeness, perhaps, perhaps, I don't

00:31:24.680 know.

00:31:24.940 But if you look at Britain in a larger picture, there's also a British, a particular British

00:31:31.300 nobility, and not just the British nobility, but a nobility of character, a dignity of character,

00:31:36.620 and a strength.

00:31:38.220 And what remigration calls upon is strength.

00:31:43.560 And it calls upon a more masculine, I guess one could say calloused, or one could say thicker

00:31:51.960 skinned approach to what needs to be done.

00:31:55.240 It's going to be hard.

00:31:57.580 People are not going to want to leave.

00:31:59.140 There are going to be photos of crying children, and there will be resistance, and then that resistance

00:32:04.840 will be met with strength.

00:32:06.120 And until, and I've spoken about this when I interview British gentlemen, usually, about,

00:32:13.860 you know, the fate of the British male right now, I wonder to what degree, I just lost my

00:32:20.880 thought, but I wonder to what degree.

00:32:22.320 Well, you saw a fair few people at ARC, didn't you, not, that are sort of prepared to stand

00:32:26.640 up and say these more difficult, more hardline things?

00:32:29.240 You guys, I think courage begins with speech, and it's really interesting that you guys are

00:32:37.220 not allowed to speak.

00:32:38.580 That disconnects you from your courage, because then you're only left with action, and then

00:32:43.020 you cannot justify your action beforehand if you can't speak your action.

00:32:46.520 If you can't say, if you don't do this, then this will happen.

00:32:50.160 If you can't speak that, then when you follow, when there's an outburst and all you can do

00:32:56.580 is do, then it just looks like violence.

00:32:58.620 It looks like mindless violence, and it doesn't have any human character or nobility or courage

00:33:04.640 in that.

00:33:05.420 So I think it's incredibly courageous for you guys to speak first as much as you can.

00:33:11.380 But the courage, if that speech doesn't lead into action, then true courage, you're going

00:33:17.720 to have to call upon the certain parts of your history where perhaps, you know, armor is,

00:33:23.580 where skin as thick as armor comes out, and the word, the sharp word is replaced by harder

00:33:31.340 implement.

00:33:32.320 Well, when we look back through history in the English example, some people say the

00:33:36.360 English never, because we didn't get involved in the French Revolution, and there weren't

00:33:39.600 massive revolutions in 1848.

00:33:42.100 Some people think Britain's never revolt and never push back against the state.

00:33:46.100 But there's loads and loads of examples to that history when they have indeed.

00:33:51.400 Britain has fallen into a type of anarchy and or civil war.

00:33:55.280 There are lots and lots and lots of examples of it.

00:33:57.160 So, okay, we've got the peasants' revolt, the civil war, Wyatt's rebellion.

00:34:02.020 The list is actually really quite long.

00:34:05.780 And again, if you look back throughout history, talking about not being able to speak, so oppression

00:34:14.860 or repression or censorship, if you look back through just a couple of examples off the top

00:34:19.980 of my head, if you look at the collapse of the Soviet Union, yeah, a very repressive system.

00:34:25.820 But when it collapsed, it collapsed quick, because everyone already knew and everyone among

00:34:33.020 themselves had already been talking about it for years and years and years.

00:34:37.880 There's many examples of dictatorships or oppressive, censorious regimes collapsing very,

00:34:44.220 very quickly when it seemed that they were as strong as they ever were.

00:34:50.280 You know, look at Franco's Spain, or you look at Yugoslavia with Tite, or you look at

00:34:55.320 Ceausescu, or again, there are just lots and lots of examples of where it seems that people

00:35:03.380 can't speak, and then it all falls apart.

00:35:08.420 I mean, even Tsarist Russia teetered for a while.

00:35:12.040 Tsarist Russia was nowhere near as oppressive as the Soviet era.

00:35:15.540 But nonetheless, when it collapsed, it collapsed quick, because real people, real men, had been

00:35:21.140 talking about it and thinking about it for a long time already.

00:35:24.160 Yeah, well, one wonders about the economics of such a regime change or change of things.

00:35:31.840 I mean, it calls upon the relinquishing of one's comfortableness, being comfortable.

00:35:38.360 But if the world is already, if your comforts are already declining, there might be a time

00:35:45.280 to step off.

00:35:45.800 Well, that's the thing.

00:35:46.680 People say that we won't rise up and do anything because it's too easy not to, because everyone's

00:35:52.580 sort of middle class and comfortable.

00:35:54.560 Well, what about when you're not anymore?

00:35:56.560 What about when inflation is so high you can't afford to buy a bloody block of cheese?

00:36:00.400 You can't afford to keep your own home.

00:36:02.060 You can't afford your mortgage.

00:36:03.020 Your wife or sister or daughter has been raped.

00:36:07.900 You've been forced out of the place your forefathers have lived in for generations.

00:36:13.780 You've been forced to live somewhere else because you've been intimidated out of that

00:36:17.720 area by foreigners.

00:36:20.820 Like, there will be a point.

00:36:21.940 There is a point.

00:36:23.000 Every people have got a breaking point.

00:36:25.200 You know, we were in the other studio, your, like, Starship studio.

00:36:32.820 This is, like, this is the cozy studio.

00:36:34.920 And you're talking about every day.

00:36:36.360 You guys do a stream.

00:36:37.760 Is it every day you guys do?

00:36:38.700 Every weekday.

00:36:39.260 Every weekday.

00:36:39.860 Wow.

00:36:40.420 And you're like, it's usually so many black pills and I try to bring a white pill.

00:36:43.900 Let's find a white pill.

00:36:45.820 Okay.

00:36:46.600 Yeah, well, I didn't realize.

00:36:48.160 I thought I'd be interviewing you all about you.

00:36:50.280 Yeah, good luck with that.

00:36:51.100 And we started off just straight up talking about Trump and then the state of England.

00:36:55.200 But, yeah, no, so there's loads of things I wanted to ask you.

00:36:59.120 Tons of things.

00:37:00.060 So, first of all, you went to Ark.

00:37:02.140 Did you enjoy it?

00:37:03.480 Is this your first time in England?

00:37:05.280 Yeah, I've flown through.

00:37:06.320 I was in Killarney, Ireland a couple of years ago for a Genspect conference around the gender

00:37:12.000 issue.

00:37:12.660 Oh, right.

00:37:13.140 Okay, yeah.

00:37:13.500 An organization that's working on the various aspects of gender ideology and its effects on

00:37:19.240 people's bodies and families and stuff like that.

00:37:21.740 But, yeah, this is the first time I've been to London.

00:37:23.600 And I'm staying in Westminster now.

00:37:26.780 So, I'm getting, I'm absorbing more actual London and getting to see the Abbey and the

00:37:33.040 Houses of Parliament and stuff like that.

00:37:34.780 But Ark was in, sorry?

00:37:36.740 Sorry, I was just saying, I think your wife is at the British Museum today.

00:37:41.700 Yes.

00:37:41.920 If you can, if you can, go there.

00:37:44.760 I think the two best things you can go to in London is the British Museum and Westminster

00:37:49.140 Abbey.

00:37:49.840 And, again, while we were, just before we were called in, I pressed upon you that you

00:37:53.220 must visit the Abbey.

00:37:54.640 It's free to go in.

00:37:55.780 It's not open every day.

00:37:56.740 I mean, sometimes I actually have mass in there and stuff.

00:38:00.140 So, it's not sort of open 24-7.

00:38:02.280 But, nonetheless, it is free to get in.

00:38:04.760 And I think, yeah, I'm pretty sure it is.

00:38:07.200 Last time I went, it was.

00:38:08.120 Anyway, do go there if you can.

00:38:10.440 It's really odd.

00:38:11.540 I've been to Europe.

00:38:12.320 I've been to France and Austria and a couple other places, briefly.

00:38:17.360 And Britain is really odd.

00:38:19.880 It's odd to be so far from home and yet so close to the culture.

00:38:23.940 Like, I don't, there's, everything's in English.

00:38:26.500 And the kind of, there's some older architecture, but mostly it's just people dress better.

00:38:31.660 Like, there's not like a distance between me and this culture.

00:38:35.900 And so, it's just odd.

00:38:37.240 I have a hard time looking at it.

00:38:39.760 I have a hard time really, like, seeing it.

00:38:41.100 Like, when I went to France or I went to a monastery or a monkery, what's it called?

00:38:48.240 An abbey of some sort.

00:38:49.420 A monastery.

00:38:50.080 Yeah, a monastery.

00:38:51.220 A monkery.

00:38:52.180 I think it's nunnery, right?

00:38:54.800 Like, there was enough distance for me to appreciate that.

00:38:57.460 The distance is a lot shorter.

00:38:58.880 So, I'm having a hard time absorbing it because it just feels so close to who I am in a way.

00:39:04.980 So, I feel kind of like this.

00:39:06.300 Are your ancestors English or Irish, Scottish, Dutch?

00:39:09.760 Yeah.

00:39:09.900 What are you?

00:39:10.660 A lot of English and some Irish.

00:39:12.780 Right.

00:39:13.080 Okay.

00:39:13.180 Yeah.

00:39:13.620 Boyce, I think, is Lebois.

00:39:17.020 It's an anglicized Lebois.

00:39:19.080 All right.

00:39:19.280 So, we've been here for a while.

00:39:21.200 There's one composer.

00:39:21.840 William Boyce is a composer.

00:39:24.120 Oh, yeah.

00:39:24.640 Boyce is a pretty Irish name.

00:39:26.020 Yeah, of course.

00:39:26.720 No, yeah, of course.

00:39:27.400 Yeah.

00:39:27.660 Yeah.

00:39:27.720 So, okay.

00:39:29.380 So, did you like ARC or did you find it a bit of a waste of time or it was better than

00:39:33.260 you expected or tell me about ARC?

00:39:35.200 ARC was really interesting.

00:39:37.420 It was, so they kept on bringing up Noah Harari, this transhumanist guy who's featured in the

00:39:46.700 WEF, the World Economic Forum, right?

00:39:49.640 The WEF.

00:39:50.140 And ARC is kind of, like, they mentioned Harari quite a lot, kind of like as their foil.

00:39:58.340 Like, oh, we're not him.

00:39:59.320 Like, look at him.

00:39:59.900 We're not him.

00:40:00.860 Transglobalist.

00:40:01.580 Sorry, transhumanist, a globalist.

00:40:03.080 Globalist, yeah.

00:40:03.740 Eats the bugs, you know, kind of Schwab's right hand.

00:40:07.200 A race communist.

00:40:08.260 All people are equal and the same.

00:40:10.260 Yeah.

00:40:10.940 Basically, cogs in a wheel.

00:40:13.120 And so, the WEF is the World Economic Forum.

00:40:15.960 And ARC, I think, was pretty explicitly modeled as a response to the WEF.

00:40:24.600 But ARC kept on talking about, we're going to save the West.

00:40:28.140 And I think that saving the West is just one meridian shy of trying to save the world.

00:40:34.740 It's basically globalist.

00:40:36.880 It's basically this huge tent where we're going to kind of say a bunch of things, but

00:40:43.300 we're not going to really say anything really explicitly.

00:40:45.720 We're not going to take a really strong stand on any given one of these things, but we're

00:40:49.460 going to mention Christianity.

00:40:50.780 We're going to mention how kids need to not be on phones and pornography needs to be banned,

00:40:55.920 you know, maybe.

00:40:56.980 And how awesome Gen X is.

00:40:59.640 And I'm talking about the speakers.

00:41:02.360 So, I was there.

00:41:03.740 I listened to it.

00:41:04.540 I'm like, well, what do you guys really, really, what are we here for?

00:41:08.960 What are we really here for?

00:41:10.000 When we talk about Christianity, what Christianity are we talking about?

00:41:12.760 When we talk about saving the West, what is the West?

00:41:14.700 What is the West?

00:41:17.200 I guess it's basically after World War II, it's a bunch of American satellite states in

00:41:22.500 America, basically, you know, or Europe.

00:41:25.300 But they didn't say Europe.

00:41:26.420 We're not going to say Europe because, you know, Americans are there.

00:41:29.140 And so that was kind of the program.

00:41:30.980 But I think it needs to be broad enough for ideas to percolate.

00:41:36.180 Like, in the, you know, in the schmoozing place.

00:41:41.780 And in the schmoozing place, there's 4,000 people there.

00:41:44.460 And I was trying to figure out who all these people were.

00:41:46.560 There was a lot of young people and a lot of older people in suits.

00:41:50.040 And so I think that what it was being used for, whether intentionally or unintentionally,

00:41:55.340 was for young people who are looking for opportunity to meet older people who are looking for something

00:42:00.420 to invest in.

00:42:01.280 And so just allowing some sort of coalition building in with regard to career.

00:42:09.060 And what I think is very important while Trump is going through and dismantling the deep state,

00:42:16.640 so-called, and just kind of like dissolving a lot of these positions,

00:42:22.400 is that there's, until we, just like I said, until we have a new order,

00:42:28.000 until there are, until somebody can see a whole career path in this new institution,

00:42:35.220 in this new American institution, or whatever that's going to be,

00:42:39.280 there's really, it lacks longevity until you have that.

00:42:44.640 And so art was very light on myth, like myth building.

00:42:48.960 Like they talked about, we need a new story, but like nobody,

00:42:52.260 nobody was ready to like tell the story.

00:42:55.180 Okay.

00:42:55.620 And I don't know if we want to hear the story.

00:42:57.780 I think it's more important in order to not be globalist is to be more particularist

00:43:02.960 and say that Hungarians are Hungarian, British are British, French are French.

00:43:07.300 And until we remember who we are as people and build our strength and our identity,

00:43:16.140 return to our identity, just like I'm saying with what needs to happen in Britain

00:43:19.780 in order to change the flow of events, until those particularities are revitalized,

00:43:29.380 then we can have like a West.

00:43:32.000 Then those different particular things can go up and have a coalition.

00:43:34.880 But that coalition has to dissolve right now.

00:43:37.640 I think, I think American hegemony being withdrawn is going to probably make Europe suffer.

00:43:44.340 But, but that suffering, like no longer being basically vassals of America is going to give

00:43:49.580 you guys the opportunity to really say, who are we?

00:43:52.460 What do we need to do?

00:43:53.320 And I think ARC in, ARC was an umbrella for that to start to take place.

00:43:59.860 Interesting.

00:44:00.360 Very, very interesting.

00:44:01.160 I mean, you use the word particular, some people might say regionalist or even nationalist.

00:44:06.200 I would like to see the word nationalist or nationalism lose its connotations of being evil or something.

00:44:13.500 It's like, no, there's, we have a nation.

00:44:15.360 I belong to the nation.

00:44:17.820 But somehow the word patriot is okay, but the word nationalist isn't.

00:44:22.600 I've never really thought that because there is also the connotation of national socialism.

00:44:26.840 You guys need to get over, you keep on bringing up Nazi, you keep on bringing up Hitler.

00:44:32.840 Exactly what you said.

00:44:33.920 You need to, I think, I completely agree with what you said.

00:44:36.480 We need to be unashamedly.

00:44:38.160 Yeah.

00:44:38.840 Completely unashamedly just pro-national.

00:44:42.560 Let's say that at least.

00:44:44.300 I know Carl doesn't particularly like the word nationalist or nationalism, but just be completely

00:44:48.900 unapologetic about your own country.

00:44:52.540 Yeah.

00:44:52.900 No, absolutely.

00:44:53.900 I think that on a deeper level, a lot of people brought up Christianity and brought

00:44:58.880 up spirituality, and I don't know to what extent you guys are secularists.

00:45:02.660 I find Carl...

00:45:03.940 Well, I'm an atheist.

00:45:04.940 Okay.

00:45:05.240 You guys are, you're an atheist?

00:45:06.560 I am, yeah.

00:45:06.960 Yeah.

00:45:07.520 I find it...

00:45:08.160 Well, skeptic, let's say.

00:45:10.060 Yeah.

00:45:10.560 Sorry.

00:45:10.800 I'm not a true atheist.

00:45:12.240 Yeah.

00:45:12.760 I don't know if there's a God or not.

00:45:14.220 Yeah.

00:45:14.380 That's my position.

00:45:15.060 Yeah.

00:45:15.720 That's my position.

00:45:16.320 I don't know if there is or not.

00:45:17.640 Nobody can.

00:45:18.660 That's my position.

00:45:19.600 I don't want to slag on Carl.

00:45:20.840 It's his show and I really like him.

00:45:22.180 But I think, I find it fascinating how he, he bags on atheists and he's like, we need

00:45:27.640 to have a Christian, he's like, he's pointing in the Christian direction, but he can't be

00:45:31.900 Christian, right?

00:45:32.640 He can't.

00:45:32.900 So he never used to be, he used to be sort of very, very, fairly vocally atheist.

00:45:38.480 Yeah.

00:45:38.840 Or, yeah, no, it's right.

00:45:40.400 It's funny.

00:45:40.780 Um, I think that there is a, there is some need for, for whatever nationalism or community

00:45:50.380 is to be bounded by a particular mythos and a particular forms and rituals.

00:45:57.880 And in my estimation, um, if you're going to establish rituals, you should establish some

00:46:05.360 direction for those rituals that is higher than, let's say, uh, a car or even a nation.

00:46:11.100 And that, that transcendent value, you could use words like truth or justice or something

00:46:16.940 like that.

00:46:17.360 But God is a pretty good direction if it's properly conceived, but without humbling oneself

00:46:23.820 and, and syncing up with, with your fellow man and having some sort of relationship that

00:46:30.040 isn't just language based, just ethnicity based, just sports teams based, um, there needs

00:46:37.420 to be some sort of glue that I think.

00:46:40.820 And I think that, I can't not be a Christian, but I can't be a Christian because I have a

00:46:47.180 difficult time with belief.

00:46:49.260 Like I have a difficult time.

00:46:50.720 Dogma.

00:46:51.180 Dogma.

00:46:51.680 I have a really hard time.

00:46:52.900 Right.

00:46:53.100 Me too.

00:46:53.580 Right.

00:46:53.900 I have a really hard time with that, but I believe that, I believe that there is a spiritual

00:46:58.140 dimension to life that allows for people to connect on it, on a deeper level.

00:47:02.400 And, and I think any sort of community, uh, or communal action that doesn't have, um, a

00:47:10.640 spiritual component is going to go down the path of entropic hell.

00:47:16.040 I think that without, without some sort of value and aim that's higher than, than will

00:47:22.500 to power, the nationalism or any other sort of, of movement of power will.

00:47:27.580 And you end up being very materialistic and, and very inhumane.

00:47:31.940 No, I completely agree with you.

00:47:33.740 Um, I think Christopher Hitchie talked about, um, like the, the numinous, the idea that the

00:47:40.440 spiritualism in the very broadest sense, the idea that there is something bigger than

00:47:45.940 just materialism.

00:47:47.960 There's something bigger and more important and the, the human condition, uh, isn't divorced

00:47:53.120 from something, something like that, but not sort of, because I, I, again, I, without

00:47:59.500 thinking, describe myself as an atheist a moment ago.

00:48:01.920 I'm not an atheist because an atheist says there certainly isn't a God.

00:48:06.320 I say, I don't know.

00:48:07.980 That's the truth.

00:48:08.880 As far as I can tell is that I don't know.

00:48:10.900 We seem to be spiraling through space.

00:48:13.400 Uh, that seems to be true.

00:48:16.460 The galaxy is spiraling through the cosmos, but there's a meaning, whether there's, whether

00:48:20.680 the theology and the words that were written in the, the scriptures and the gospel.

00:48:25.900 No, I'm not, I don't, I'm not particularly interested in that.

00:48:29.440 If I was to worship anything, it might be the sun.

00:48:32.640 Yeah.

00:48:33.120 Right.

00:48:33.980 I'm not saying I'm a pagan either.

00:48:35.280 I'm not, I'm not a pagan, but I don't, yeah, I don't buy the dogma, the Christian dogma.

00:48:42.240 I don't buy into it.

00:48:43.680 I don't believe I don't have faith.

00:48:45.320 You're asked to have a type of blind faith and I can't, I can't do it.

00:48:50.200 I can't, if I'm honest with myself, deep down, all I can say, I believe in, or I have

00:48:56.780 faith, the images that Hubble or, um, the James Webb have sent back to us.

00:49:01.200 That seems to be what the cosmos is, um, not what, uh, not, not what I'm told by Tertullian.

00:49:08.660 Right.

00:49:09.220 So, so, okay.

00:49:10.280 I'm not saying there's no, there might be a God.

00:49:12.640 I don't know.

00:49:13.280 That's my position.

00:49:14.200 I do not know.

00:49:15.220 In fact, it's unknowable whether there is or not.

00:49:18.340 I feel like that's the only sort of honest position to hold.

00:49:22.260 But as you said, I think it is absolutely important to have something like a spirituality,

00:49:30.280 some sort of narrative or story that's bigger than us, that's bigger than merely materialism

00:49:35.480 and the human condition.

00:49:36.900 Otherwise you go, you descend into some type of hell.

00:49:41.680 Otherwise, right.

00:49:43.620 That is playing out.

00:49:44.820 That is playing out in the 21st century.

00:49:47.980 Well, in your country, in your country, in your country.

00:49:51.560 Yeah.

00:49:52.000 Oh yeah, for sure.

00:49:53.020 And look at California, some places in California.

00:49:55.000 Yeah.

00:49:55.100 Well, I mean, look at the mental health of our youth, right?

00:49:59.920 Yeah.

00:50:00.480 There's, you, so when you talk about Britain, when you, when you talk about what it is to

00:50:07.880 be British, you, you, you, you talk about history because you're a historian.

00:50:12.360 So you, you, you go to history, right?

00:50:15.060 You're a fan of history.

00:50:15.900 Okay.

00:50:16.340 Yeah.

00:50:16.520 I'm sorry.

00:50:17.200 I'm nitpicking.

00:50:17.920 I'm being pretentious.

00:50:18.500 Yeah.

00:50:19.040 Sorry.

00:50:19.200 Uh, but when, when I asked you, well, what is that?

00:50:22.560 What is the character of Britain?

00:50:24.520 You can point to all these places on a time map, right?

00:50:27.440 Where this thing happened and this thing happened, this thing happened.

00:50:29.880 And you can tell all these different stories in these relationships and you can point to

00:50:32.980 all these sites and who built them and stuff like that.

00:50:34.880 But there's this spirit of the land.

00:50:37.280 There's a spirit of the people that is more than the sum of its parts.

00:50:40.420 There is a, there is a Britishness.

00:50:43.380 And I think that even when the conversation that erupted on Twitter about what is a British

00:50:48.540 person and does it, is that necessarily a, an ethnicity, there is a, there's a style

00:50:54.380 and a, and a, and a tone of voice and a way of looking at the world and a way of interacting

00:50:59.920 with the world.

00:51:00.440 This sounds like woke, right?

00:51:01.880 Post-modernism, but it's true that, that you have a, you are a part of the people that

00:51:07.400 has a particular taste and smell and tone of voice and a set of values to you.

00:51:13.800 And I think that that is, that is a spiritual.

00:51:16.200 And by spiritual, I just mean that is an aggregate sense that you have of the thing.

00:51:21.400 And I think that, that it would be really difficult to convey that to young men in order

00:51:29.800 for them to take pride in their land without reducing it into story.

00:51:34.420 Right.

00:51:34.900 And I think that the Bible or any sort of religious document is the attempt to communicate a very

00:51:42.120 big reality through these little tiny stories of this happened.

00:51:47.640 And you see the nature of reality through all of these different stories.

00:51:51.500 And, and the problem that I have with dogma is like, it's distilling those stories, which

00:51:55.080 are already a distillation of experience.

00:51:57.080 They're distilled into stories and then distilling those stories into little statements.

00:52:00.580 And like, I can't go that far.

00:52:02.200 Like the stories should lead up, not down into dogma, but up into experience.

00:52:07.040 So that's where I'm putting it.

00:52:08.040 Yeah.

00:52:08.840 So that's, that's where I stand with, with religion probably.

00:52:12.840 No, it's a very nice way of visualizing it.

00:52:16.780 Yeah.

00:52:18.280 So the other thing I wanted to talk to you all about, which I actually in my mind thought

00:52:21.980 we'd only be talking about is your channel and your content and your journey.

00:52:29.680 So I thought my first question, I actually thought as soon as we start, I'd say, I'm

00:52:33.280 talking to Benjamin Boyce to tell me about, about your uni days.

00:52:38.820 My uni days.

00:52:39.480 Yeah.

00:52:39.820 And how you started, how you started making content.

00:52:41.980 Is that another word for onesies?

00:52:43.540 We're going to start my toddler, toddler, uni.

00:52:46.900 No, no.

00:52:47.720 University.

00:52:48.240 Yeah.

00:52:48.880 I'm sorry.

00:52:49.120 Um, cause that was really how you started making content, right?

00:52:53.720 I remember cause you've been doing it for quite a few years now.

00:52:56.700 Yeah.

00:52:57.320 Coming on eight.

00:52:58.240 Eight years.

00:52:59.080 Yeah.

00:52:59.580 Yeah.

00:52:59.720 And your channel knocking very close to a hundred thousand, big 100K.

00:53:04.260 Let's get in there guys.

00:53:05.420 If you haven't subbed to Benjamin Boyce.

00:53:07.820 You don't have to turn on the notification or something, but if you subscribe, that'd be

00:53:11.320 nice just to get that fricking number.

00:53:13.240 Yeah.

00:53:13.540 Yeah.

00:53:13.740 Right.

00:53:14.020 It's completely arbitrary, but you want it.

00:53:15.640 Yeah.

00:53:15.960 I know.

00:53:16.420 It's just a nice milestone.

00:53:17.800 No, sure.

00:53:18.200 Um, and you got like 1300 odd videos more.

00:53:22.140 You're quite prolific.

00:53:23.520 I mean, even for eight years, that's quite a lot.

00:53:27.040 Maybe it is a lot.

00:53:28.160 I think it's over 500 interviews and I mainly just do interviews now, but yeah.

00:53:32.180 Wow.

00:53:32.740 Sheesh.

00:53:33.740 Um, well, once you get into it, you just have to create content.

00:53:36.820 It became a job.

00:53:37.540 Right.

00:53:37.840 Yeah.

00:53:38.000 Right.

00:53:38.260 Yeah.

00:53:38.640 It became a job.

00:53:39.280 It became work.

00:53:40.140 So, you know, the work is to keep the content flowing, you know?

00:53:43.600 And so, um, feed the algorithm.

00:53:45.300 Yeah.

00:53:45.640 Well, yeah.

00:53:46.400 Yeah.

00:53:46.760 I guess so.

00:53:47.420 A lot of, that's not criticism.

00:53:48.440 That's what we do here.

00:53:49.260 No, that's what you guys do here.

00:53:50.680 We're a content meal.

00:53:51.040 Yeah.

00:53:51.360 No.

00:53:51.620 And you guys have a lot of smart people.

00:53:53.200 I'm just on my own.

00:53:54.020 I see a lot of people who started after me, like get really big, really quick.

00:53:57.240 I'm like, I'm not going to be jealous.

00:53:59.080 I'm not going to be jealous.

00:53:59.800 I'm doing my own thing.

00:54:01.280 Moisturized in my lane.

00:54:02.580 I'm focused on what I need to focus.

00:54:04.120 But yeah.

00:54:04.520 No, I'm the same with some history friends.

00:54:06.180 Yeah.

00:54:06.420 Started way after me.

00:54:07.640 And they're now seven times, 20 times bigger than my channel.

00:54:10.480 Yeah.

00:54:11.200 That's fine.

00:54:12.000 I try to be humble.

00:54:13.060 Your stuff is really great though.

00:54:14.540 I mean, I'm not just blowing smoke up your ass for the sake of it.

00:54:17.280 I think your channel is very, very good.

00:54:19.760 I think your style, your energy is brilliant.

00:54:23.420 I can't, I can't fault you.

00:54:25.060 Well, thank you.

00:54:25.400 I wish I was, I wish I was more like it.

00:54:27.660 Like you're, you've never, I've never seen you lose your temper or come close.

00:54:32.120 I was, I, I, I've been retarded before and I kind of, I, I, I've failed certain interviews.

00:54:37.940 Like there's one that came to mind.

00:54:39.180 I interviewed Constantine Kissin and I still just in my craw.

00:54:43.060 When was that?

00:54:43.460 Was that not too long ago?

00:54:44.500 It was not too long ago.

00:54:45.720 I, Constantine Green, I saw him at ARC.

00:54:47.600 He did a brilliant ending speech.

00:54:49.860 He's a brilliant guy.

00:54:51.020 And like, there's something about like misconnection.

00:54:54.240 Well, it goes.

00:54:55.400 I don't want to talk about that necessarily, but I'll just say that why, what I try to

00:54:59.780 do, I do a lot of interviews.

00:55:01.540 I spent a lot of time, probably one of my landmark things besides the Evergreen State College

00:55:06.700 story.

00:55:07.060 I did a landmark documentary because I was at that college and that was peak wokeness.

00:55:12.520 That in that probably that, that documentary that's pretty extensive that occurred in 20,

00:55:19.980 2015 to 2017.

00:55:21.180 That's the period I cover at the Evergreen State College, small little super progressive

00:55:25.040 college in Olympia, Washington.

00:55:28.700 Everything that happened there happened on the world stage in 2020.

00:55:32.860 Everything that happened in 2020, aside from a novel coronavirus that...

00:55:38.220 It's remarkable.

00:55:39.260 The microcosm.

00:55:40.260 Yeah.

00:55:40.680 Of what happened.

00:55:41.780 But all the BLM stuff, all the racial awakening.

00:55:44.500 Yeah.

00:55:44.620 So everything happened there.

00:55:45.660 So that was my bread and butter for a really long time.

00:55:47.780 I got sick of racial politics and somehow I moved on to gender.

00:55:52.260 And in the gender discussion, I found this group of individuals that are kind of called

00:55:57.320 detransitioners.

00:55:58.740 Have had usually in their teens or twenties developed a trans identity or transfixation and

00:56:06.000 went to a certain degree down that transitional path.

00:56:08.840 And in those interviews, it was really interesting topic to see what's happening with this group

00:56:14.000 of people.

00:56:14.640 But the most important thing about the interview was to, to really get a portrait of who this

00:56:19.660 person was and, you know, the ideology and like what they ended up doing and how that

00:56:24.480 was a bad decision or not for them.

00:56:27.360 It was besides the point.

00:56:28.860 It's like, who is this person?

00:56:30.720 And this is the, the topic is this detransition.

00:56:33.320 And so with the kissing thing, like I didn't get to that, that, that connection.

00:56:38.860 He didn't let you in.

00:56:39.880 I don't know.

00:56:40.720 I don't know.

00:56:41.280 And I, I'm not a good arguer and, and there's a certain things that he was arguing that I

00:56:46.560 just couldn't overcome.

00:56:47.640 And so like I was really, I got egg all over my face because I couldn't argue with him.

00:56:53.000 I was looking for something else.

00:56:54.300 And so that like in relief, that kind of shows you what I'm trying to do, not necessarily

00:56:59.560 consciously, but in an interview, when it gets to a place where things like go into

00:57:04.380 this other deeper level.

00:57:07.460 And then maybe if, if the conversation is really good, like I'll ask a question and you get

00:57:13.500 this person like looking at things and they just look at it in a whole different way.

00:57:18.120 And so I'm really interested in how people look at the world.

00:57:20.600 And my job is to be, and I call it like the stage is like the stage is theirs, but like,

00:57:26.720 but I'm, I'm the theater's mine.

00:57:28.480 Right.

00:57:28.980 Right.

00:57:29.280 So I, I give the, I give them and I'm just kind of setting up the lights and the, and

00:57:33.320 the attitude and the atmosphere for, for something more human and hopefully to kind of break

00:57:38.480 through a little bit of the shallowness of our age, or at least of our current way of

00:57:42.900 communicating.

00:57:43.480 And that's why I love your content.

00:57:46.480 And especially when you come on my, my show, even though we're not talking about you specifically

00:57:50.300 every once in a while, like try to peek into your, into your life, you know, but like we

00:57:54.840 just really get into the story of who Grant was, you know, and like who this person was

00:58:00.300 and I'm really a who person.

00:58:02.400 That's what, that's how I organize information and organize the values of my life.

00:58:06.440 It's like, who is that person?

00:58:08.360 No, that's great.

00:58:08.960 And I think you did very, very well.

00:58:11.100 Thank you.

00:58:11.440 Um, I mean, when the first time we spoke was the, I think it was the war of 1812 one.

00:58:16.360 Did we start there?

00:58:17.400 Yeah.

00:58:17.560 I'm pretty sure that was our first long form conversation.

00:58:21.680 And, um, you just allowed me to run wild.

00:58:26.920 You allowed me the stage.

00:58:28.920 You set up the stage and the lights for me and perfectly, I thought.

00:58:34.360 Oh, it was great.

00:58:35.160 Um, because some people often I find, cause I've done a bit of interviewing myself, been

00:58:40.880 interviewed once or twice and, and done a few fair few interviews.

00:58:44.080 And, um, it is quite often a different dynamic.

00:58:47.320 Sometimes the person really wants to dominate and you can barely get a word in.

00:58:50.860 Sometimes you have to really coax them.

00:58:53.280 Sometimes it's 50, 50, whatever.

00:58:55.840 But usually if I'm, if I'm the interviewee and it's history, I'm going to want to, I'm probably

00:59:02.840 most comfortable doing the vast majority of the lifting and just seamlessly with nothing

00:59:09.260 contrived beforehand.

00:59:10.280 You just let me do it.

00:59:12.000 You just let me go.

00:59:12.900 Yeah.

00:59:13.100 And just tweaked me in the right direction every now and again, keep me on, keep me

00:59:16.920 on just about on the right path.

00:59:18.420 Where are we going to cover next?

00:59:19.420 And it was just, it just worked perfectly for me.

00:59:21.680 And I see nearly all the interviews you do, you, you pull that off.

00:59:26.240 You seem to pull that off.

00:59:27.240 I can't think of an example when I was like, oh, Boyce is ruining this.

00:59:31.840 I can't think of an example.

00:59:33.380 So that's great.

00:59:35.200 Long may it last.

00:59:36.200 That, that, uh, the content isn't necessarily, well, I mean, if somebody subscribes to me,

00:59:41.960 I don't, you hear like, I watched your content, but not all of them.

00:59:45.460 Like, oh, I hope not.

00:59:46.900 Nobody has time to watch.

00:59:48.160 I don't even have time to watch all of it.

00:59:49.660 I don't do hardly any, uh, any editing.

00:59:53.060 I just like that pure like hour and a half or so, but it's not for everybody and it's not

00:59:58.480 for the algorithm either, but it's like, I think there's this concept of the long tail

01:00:03.100 of, uh, you know, like, and I, I heard this a while ago and the example uses that Britney

01:00:09.620 Spears gets a whole bunch of attention, but like in these rare bands get a lot less attention,

01:00:14.780 but over time that kind of shakes out.

01:00:16.780 If you make really good content in that long tail, because, because of the way that media

01:00:21.940 is accessed so easily now you can, you can afford, you can make kind of a mom and pop

01:00:27.560 living off of not, not doing anything too big and just like, just following your interests,

01:00:33.700 following your curiosity.

01:00:35.000 Right now I'm mapping out what would be called the dissident, right?

01:00:39.280 Except they're kind of a little bit in power.

01:00:41.420 So they need to stop being dissidents and actually like put where the rubber meets the road, the

01:00:46.400 E right, the more, um, like, like what's on the edge of the, uh, the right edge of the

01:00:51.440 Overton window.

01:00:52.100 I've been interviewing that because I think there's a lot of ideas there, even though the people

01:00:56.360 might not be articulating them in a way that it will be accessible to the centrists or even

01:01:00.400 allowable and polite society, there's still a lot over there.

01:01:03.680 I'm really fascinated and especially I'm fascinated in the, in the contention between the classical

01:01:09.720 liberals and the more further right individuals, such as, uh, such as Carl's arc from kind of

01:01:17.320 being an atheist liberal into somewhere.

01:01:19.480 I love that.

01:01:20.560 One of the things I love to do is to have people on repeatedly over time, every couple of

01:01:25.640 years or so, and just to watch and get a portrait of somebody in time.

01:01:29.400 And that's really important.

01:01:30.800 It's something that we forget.

01:01:31.960 And that's something that the woke cancel culture era, uh, kind of overlooked about human

01:01:36.900 nature is that you can be a 15 year old racist and then a 25 year old humanitarian, you know,

01:01:42.840 like there's this huge trajectory that we're always going on and intellectually, how much

01:01:47.820 more complex somebody, somebody, and if you're not developing and if you're regressing that,

01:01:52.680 that that's a story too.

01:01:54.440 It's really interesting.

01:01:55.400 Yeah.

01:01:55.560 It's fascinating.

01:01:56.040 The way like, for example, um, the various dialogues between James Lindsay and Carl Benjamin.

01:02:02.360 Yeah.

01:02:02.520 There was sort of a fairly famous ish.

01:02:04.360 Yeah.

01:02:04.600 I was in inverted commas debate they had and you've had them both on before and since.

01:02:08.840 Yeah.

01:02:09.160 And so, you know, I've been on a couple of three, three times or whatever, and, uh, you've

01:02:13.560 done that with a whole bunch of different people.

01:02:14.920 Yeah.

01:02:15.400 And, um, yeah, it's great because everyone's on a journey.

01:02:17.880 Yeah.

01:02:18.440 I always think it's one of the worst things in the world when you're expected to form

01:02:23.320 your entire worldview and all your politics by the time you're 18 or by the time you're 22.

01:02:29.000 And that's it.

01:02:29.560 You have to stick with that until the end of your life.

01:02:32.280 Otherwise you're a hypocrite or you're an idiot or something.

01:02:34.760 No, no, no, no.

01:02:35.960 And that's terrible.

01:02:37.240 Everyone's on a journey and you need to be able to change your mind and even profoundly change

01:02:42.280 your mind on things.

01:02:43.320 And so that's okay.

01:02:44.600 It's intellectually honest to admit it.

01:02:47.160 Yeah.

01:02:47.720 I think one of the, one of the best aspects of our interviews, like, let's say with Hamilton

01:02:53.720 or Grant, I feel like we both like, you're telling a story and you're, you're telling

01:02:59.160 the story and I'm asking you questions and, and it seems like we've, we've taken pictures

01:03:03.960 of them through time.

01:03:05.240 Like with Ulysses, I remember like at this period of time he was here and I love the history

01:03:10.120 such a natural, natural way to tell a story.

01:03:13.400 Um, and the biography is like, who was he at this point in time?

01:03:17.880 What was he fighting against?

01:03:19.160 And then he goes and he's in this other completely different place.

01:03:23.240 He, Grant, like he was just nobody.

01:03:25.720 And then he was in charge of like routing out the South, you know, like what, what, what pressures

01:03:31.240 are those two individuals under and how does one inform the other and the other informed

01:03:35.640 the one that's, uh, I love doing that because I do quite a lot of my history themed content

01:03:41.560 is essentially a biography of someone.

01:03:44.040 I mean, not always that sometimes it's something else or war or broader themes, but often I'm

01:03:48.680 just looking at something like the life of Ulysses S. Grant or the life of Henry IV or the life

01:03:53.960 of Alfred the great or whatever it is.

01:03:55.560 And so you do it, it's obvious really to sort of do it chronologically.

01:03:58.920 This is what their childhood was like.

01:04:00.360 And if I can ever do that, just, I'm glad you like it.

01:04:04.440 You seem to actually enjoy them.

01:04:06.360 Um, uh, if I, you know, try to blow my own trumpet, you know, I feel a bit self-conscious,

01:04:12.680 but I, hopefully I do these stories some justice.

01:04:15.640 Yeah, I do.

01:04:16.840 I do hope to, yeah, to see someone's journey from, from childhood to death.

01:04:22.600 I think, I think our work is always fascinating.

01:04:24.440 I think our work is very similar.

01:04:27.000 I mean, the, the historian always flavors or colors the subject matter.

01:04:33.880 Of course.

01:04:34.760 And of course you're picking up facts.

01:04:36.200 And I was, I, I was thinking about this because one of the, one of the arguments that I had

01:04:41.720 around Kissin was about this, uh, internet creator, Daryl Cooper, martyr maid.

01:04:46.360 And he's made some salacious statements about Churchill.

01:04:48.840 I would love to hear your, your thoughts on Churchill.

01:04:50.920 He's, and Daryl's, uh, kind of challenged the Churchill, uh, God likeness and the savior of

01:04:56.120 the West kind of narrative.

01:04:57.240 And, and, um, and, and the, the, the argument with Kissin was whether or not Daryl was lying

01:05:04.520 and then, and what is the truth of the matter?

01:05:06.760 And truth is the most important thing.

01:05:08.440 We're talking about truth.

01:05:09.720 I'm like, history is, history is a string of facts.

01:05:13.000 It's always going to be a narrative.

01:05:14.520 It's tied together by a narrative.

01:05:16.280 So I'm interested in the narrative and, and it's not as clean as we want, but it's not

01:05:21.240 going to be clean.

01:05:22.120 It's going to, you're going to have competing facts.

01:05:24.280 I'm sure either because the way that the documents are handed down to us and stuff.

01:05:27.960 So in a, in a sense, there's a way that we can embrace our, our meddling hands and, and do

01:05:36.840 the story justice.

01:05:38.600 Right.

01:05:39.160 There's a way I'm trying to, I'm trying to take all my detransitioner interviews and turn

01:05:44.120 them into a book.

01:05:45.000 And I realized that I can't just transcribe that.

01:05:48.040 I need to really relive that and, and get into the head of the experience of a 14 year

01:05:53.320 old girl bullied at school, obsessed with the internet, and then just discovers that she's

01:05:59.080 actually a boy.

01:06:00.440 And then goes through this whole fever dream up to and including injecting herself with

01:06:04.920 testosterone and growing a little bit of the beard and changing her voice.

01:06:08.360 Like what is, what is it to feel in that head to be, to really like embrace that?

01:06:14.200 So that wouldn't be a historical document.

01:06:16.040 It'd be based on these historical, historical experiences, but trying to convey to the audience,

01:06:21.880 not just the facts and not even just the story, but the being there, which is more of the novelists

01:06:27.240 job.

01:06:27.960 Right.

01:06:29.240 I don't know where I was going with that.

01:06:30.600 Yeah, no, it's very interesting.

01:06:31.400 I mean, talking about sort of the nature of history and the kissing and the Churchill thing.

01:06:35.560 I mean, the reality is that there's no such thing as an objective view of the past.

01:06:43.160 As you say, the historian, there will always be the historian's hand is in the narrative

01:06:49.320 that he weaves.

01:06:49.960 It's impossible for it not to be.

01:06:52.120 So the job of an honest or a good, quote unquote, good historian is to minimize that as much as

01:06:57.720 possible.

01:06:58.040 And that's all, that's the best you can ever hope for.

01:07:01.160 We can't agree what happened yesterday, even though it's on camera.

01:07:04.680 Right.

01:07:05.560 So we certainly won't, won't, will not be able to agree exactly what was the objective truth

01:07:10.360 of what happened in 1399, for example.

01:07:14.520 So, yeah.

01:07:15.000 So that is always the case.

01:07:17.800 But I would say with, with, I mean, history never stands still.

01:07:21.560 So that it will always be the narratives that any historian ways, not only will he leave his

01:07:27.160 own imprint, his own voice on the story, but it will also be a product of his time and his politics.

01:07:35.560 So, for example, you look back at Churchill through the lens of the 1970s will be quite different

01:07:42.920 to looking back at him through the lens of the 2020s.

01:07:46.360 You know, the view that certain, for just an example, the view of, let's say, Julius Caesar,

01:07:53.960 at one point is extremely popular, extremely popular.

01:07:57.320 Or someone like Cicero might be, might be a better example.

01:07:59.480 At some point, he's one of the most famous, one of the most beloved figures in history.

01:08:05.800 And then actually he's a, he's a bit, later in another period, he's a bit gauche and un, un, un popular.

01:08:12.600 And, and then it was, the pendulum will swing back.

01:08:14.680 And so that's always the way it's going to be.

01:08:17.080 I mean, just for me, just, if I just throw in my two pence on Churchill, I'm not much of a fan.

01:08:22.760 I don't buy the narrative that he's the greatest Briton that ever lived, for example.

01:08:28.920 I've got many, many criticisms, but that's just me.

01:08:32.360 There, there isn't an objective truth.

01:08:35.960 It's not, well, it's not possible to retrieve one.

01:08:39.880 The past is profoundly lost to us and will always remain.

01:08:42.440 So, so you're only going to be constructing an image, a shadow.

01:08:46.040 Well, from, from the point of view of a historian, that is the noble and humble way of viewing things.

01:08:54.040 But from the point of view of a people, we need those myths.

01:08:58.840 We need, we need a hero.

01:09:00.440 You know, we need to have somebody who's the standard bearer of why, how we got here and why we belong here, why we deserve this, whether ill or good.

01:09:11.480 And so I wonder, and maybe, maybe people don't need a figure like Washington or like any of these great historical figures.

01:09:19.960 Maybe, maybe, maybe we don't necessarily need those great men to, to define our history, but it's a very politically valuable tool to have somebody that stated or that embodied the spirit of the country for a period of time and set the standard.

01:09:36.320 And I think that's one of the beloved aspects of monarchy and one of the sad things about monarchy, you know, being here is that you had somebody who aspired to and was, was expected to be the embodiment of, and the soul of, of the, of the people on some level.

01:09:56.820 And we lost, I think we lose a little bit of direction without having that, you know, and that's why somebody like Elon Musk is very galvanizing because that, that man runs all these companies and they're all, he's a responsible for all of them and they're responsible to him.

01:10:12.160 There's this really direct Elon-ness that he's, that he's fulfilling.

01:10:16.000 That's why Trump is actually so scary to people.

01:10:18.920 And I think that's why he's flirting with autocracy and the trappings of Kingsmanship because that there's, he's tapping into something that we long for, which is a leader, which is somebody that's great.

01:10:30.740 That's going to push us forward that we can still say, well, he's flawed, but he's, he's put, he's driving us somewhere.

01:10:37.360 And so I wonder, I wonder again, if that's not what is going to be necessary for all these different European countries to have a rallying point, to have, have a strong man to lead us forward.

01:10:49.680 Yeah, no, absolutely.

01:10:50.720 I mean, talk about the Napoleon quote he came up.

01:10:52.960 I think it's actually a Cicero quote.

01:10:54.560 Oh yeah.

01:10:55.080 I think Cicero said it after the Catalan conspiracy.

01:10:58.340 I've got a whole video on Catalan conspiracy and spoken about Cicero many times.

01:11:03.400 What was the quote again?

01:11:04.640 He, who loves his country, violates no law.

01:11:07.060 Yeah.

01:11:07.520 Yeah.

01:11:07.840 I think, I think Cicero said that after, or perhaps when he was put on trial for his, his, uh, his role in the Catalan conspiracy.

01:11:17.020 But anyway, that's just a side note.

01:11:18.880 Um, yeah, I think, uh, I think you're absolutely right about the sort of the, the need for a strong leader.

01:11:26.040 I mean, again, when you look back at history, look back at the pre-modern world, at least, um, or the ancient world, um, it was sort of a, a, a, a, a struggle for survival.

01:11:37.060 Until you get a surplus of food, and then you can have artisans, teachers, doctors, and leaders.

01:11:48.020 Any sort of large collective does need leadership.

01:11:53.480 There's this idea of the left, which is odd because there's so many examples like Stalin or Mao, but the left think that the idea of having a strong man, of having a leader is somehow intrinsically wrongheaded and evil and a slippery slope to, I don't know what, the Holocaust again or something.

01:12:09.240 It's like, no, no, no, no, no.

01:12:11.040 Any strong collective will need a leader.

01:12:14.000 There's nothing wrong with that.

01:12:16.160 Again, it's sort of hot, hard baked into our, into our being because we're, we're a pack animal.

01:12:23.980 Humans are essentially a pack animal.

01:12:26.620 So you're going to need, you're going to need a leadership.

01:12:29.200 Isn't it a particular quality of British history that, um, well, one aspect of British history is, is not only the kings, but the developments, the political innovations of accountability around the king?

01:12:41.120 Yeah, sure.

01:12:41.640 That's, that's a very, very strong thing.

01:12:43.840 I mean, of course, ever since the Glorious Revolution or certainly since Queen Victoria.

01:12:47.240 Is that an ironic title or was it really glorious?

01:12:49.820 Oh, well, if you're a Protestant pro-parliamentarian, it was pretty glorious.

01:12:55.460 Okay.

01:12:56.040 I think for the average person, it didn't make much, much difference in various ways.

01:12:59.720 Okay.

01:13:00.000 If you're a Catholic, it's certainly not glorious.

01:13:01.920 It's terrible.

01:13:02.800 It's never been right since.

01:13:04.420 It depends who you are, depends how you're looking at it.

01:13:07.120 But yeah, if you're a Protestant Church of England, uh, pro-parliament person, then it was pretty damn glorious.

01:13:14.700 Yeah.

01:13:15.260 But anyway, um, ever since then, it's been parliament, not the king.

01:13:19.020 But it doesn't matter whether it, whether you call it a president, a king, a chancellor, a prime minister.

01:13:23.580 I mean, it's effectively the same thing.

01:13:25.480 The cockpit of power, the cockpit of policymaking sits with this individual, which sort of doesn't matter as much what their name is.

01:13:32.740 But, um, uh, yeah, I wanted to, I realize we've been going for already, uh, a bit of time.

01:13:38.420 I don't know how much, um, time or when you need to get.

01:13:41.800 Usually these conversations are about 90 minutes, so we can, like, start to.

01:13:44.740 Okay.

01:13:45.120 We don't have a female pilot, so we don't have to worry about the landing.

01:13:49.020 One thing I did really want to ask you about, and I was a bit worried that it might be somewhere between annoying for you or outright, can we just not, uh, was about Evergreen.

01:14:02.060 Oh, yeah.

01:14:02.640 Just because you've done it to death.

01:14:04.040 No.

01:14:04.680 Yeah.

01:14:05.080 But I'm still, because on your channel, there's so much content there, but, um, you've got sort of pinged towards the top, sort of that 12 part.

01:14:13.260 24.

01:14:14.140 Was it 24?

01:14:14.940 Yeah.

01:14:16.000 Okay.

01:14:16.500 Sorry.

01:14:17.200 Um, I've watched it all the way through myself.

01:14:18.840 I watched it all the way.

01:14:19.720 I was watching stuff as it was happening.

01:14:21.500 Yeah.

01:14:21.660 And I rewatched all of it probably about a year ago, something like that.

01:14:25.320 And, but I'd like to, uh, just talk about it for a bit, because, uh, if it's not too annoying for you.

01:14:30.760 No, it'd be great to talk to it to a fan of history.

01:14:33.880 Right.

01:14:34.360 Quote, unquote.

01:14:34.800 Because there it was, I mean, there's a, God, there's so much to say, but just, if I give you a really, really, my understanding, a really, really brief, super brief overview of it, and if you can sort of build that out a little bit, pad that out a little bit.

01:14:50.340 It seems to me that there was one or two members of the faculty, particular members of the faculty, who were, I am happy to judge them as sort of, insane is too strong, but just an arch, arch, sort of got a massive, the racial resentment.

01:15:11.780 And they used the, some of the students as foot soldiers, and then the president and the sort of very, very senior leadership allowed it to play out.

01:15:25.000 And, uh, it, it, it all, it all, in the end, imploded into some sort of mass hysteria, or that's not quite right, but some sort of, uh, nightmarish, bouldering on nightmarish scenario, and got a tiny bit violent, but it didn't, it didn't end up with, like, any giant riots and loads and loads of people getting killed or anything like that.

01:15:46.760 That nearly got there, and the police had to get involved, and the whole thing was like a microcosm of all the nonsense we've had during the Biden administration or so.

01:15:59.780 Is that a fair reading of basically how it went down?

01:16:02.920 Uh, yeah, well, that's a, this is another way that history is complex, and you can look at it, and some people, so one of the people that emerged from it, and has been very successful in life,

01:16:16.760 post-Evergreen, was not any, uh, not, not, not the institution itself.

01:16:23.300 Right.

01:16:23.660 For sure.

01:16:24.340 Uh, but it was Brett Weinstein.

01:16:26.000 Right.

01:16:26.320 One T, Weinstein, not Weinstein.

01:16:28.340 Yeah.

01:16:28.500 Um, and he went on to be part of that IDW thing, and then he's tackled other controversial issues, like the response to COVID, and, uh, certain novel medical, um, interventions.

01:16:42.340 Well, he's got a big podcast of his own, hasn't he?

01:16:43.620 He's got a very big podcast called, uh, Dark Horse.

01:16:45.800 He's been on Joe Rogan, also?

01:16:46.820 Yeah, he's regularly on Rogan.

01:16:48.380 He's sort of internet famous, or just famous, isn't he?

01:16:50.060 Yeah, he's rather, he's rather famous, he's, he's recognized on the street from what I, from what he tells me.

01:16:55.500 Um, but when somebody wants to make a hit piece about him, they'll tell the, they'll tell the Evergreen story in a very particular way.

01:17:03.620 And when somebody wants to make a hero out of him, they'll probably tell the Evergreen story a little bit closer to my way.

01:17:10.480 But his part of the whole story was actually just one piece of it.

01:17:15.000 And his major role-

01:17:16.640 When they confronted him outside his class that time.

01:17:19.380 Yeah, it wasn't even that.

01:17:21.260 It was that he became the venue by way, or the, the modus, or the, the way in which the events went viral to a certain audience.

01:17:33.300 So, this was 2017, at that time, it was post-Gamergate, uh, Gamergate, which is a part of this, this building right here, part of your project right here, is really, uh, part of what's going on now, in a way.

01:17:48.940 Gamergate led the way to a bunch of content creators, your boss among them, making these SJW cringe videos.

01:17:56.080 You know, where, where the social justice warriors, usually on a college campus, were just acting badly, behaving badly.

01:18:02.520 Uh, fatties acting badly, or something like that.

01:18:04.920 You know, the blue-haired freakazoids, or whatever like that.

01:18:07.320 So, when Evergreen happened, the students recorded the whole thing and put it on the internet, because they thought they were doing the righteous, just thing.

01:18:14.600 Because they had been taught that they are on the right side of history, no matter what, because of their skin color, because they're fighting this oppression.

01:18:21.180 Um, that, so that would have gone really viral, because it was so cringe.

01:18:26.860 But, because you had Brett Weinstein deciding to speak to Tucker, deciding to go on Rogan, go on Dave Rubin, and giving it a more intellectual, uh, answer to that.

01:18:39.660 It led the, it led the people who were not just, not what, what AA would call, like, people who just love slop, you know?

01:18:49.860 That SJJW cringe compilation, it was just slop.

01:18:53.060 But Brett, Brett gave it to an audience that was a little bit more, what the heck is going on?

01:18:58.460 This is a bigger problem.

01:18:59.660 And he kind of legitimized it in a way, or legitimized the critique by leading it to another audience.

01:19:06.820 And I don't think he understood that that's what he was doing.

01:19:09.660 I was there when it happened, and I was listening to professors trying to figure out how to respond to Brett, because Brett went on Tucker, and they thought that was totally wrong.

01:19:19.400 He should have never left.

01:19:20.460 He should have just accepted his fate as a racist, uh, Jewish supremacist, well, white supremacist Jew.

01:19:28.460 He should have just kept it on it.

01:19:29.620 Who had to have done or said anything racist?

01:19:30.940 Yeah, he should have never let it out there.

01:19:32.820 And they, they had, they were formulating a public response, this open letter public response, where they basically said that the students didn't do anything wrong.

01:19:42.480 We need to rewrite the student code of conduct to make sure that they don't get in trouble.

01:19:45.840 And Brett did everything wrong.

01:19:47.440 And we need to rewrite our faculty handbook so that we can get him in trouble.

01:19:52.640 And, and I remember being in the room while they were composing this document, because I was talking to one of the, one of the professors and his wife was, was, uh, composing this document.

01:20:02.600 I saw the document.

01:20:03.460 I'm like, Brett's going to be on Rogan tomorrow.

01:20:05.700 You don't want to release this right now.

01:20:08.900 And they're like, we have to release this right now.

01:20:10.680 I'm like, I don't think nobody understood the power of the internet.

01:20:13.240 They had no, none of the teachers.

01:20:15.320 Even in 2017.

01:20:16.340 In 2017, the teachers and the administration had no idea the media frenzy they were about to be involved in.

01:20:24.920 They thought it was just some viral videos and some stupid people on Fox calling it in.

01:20:30.060 They had no idea that there's this huge network.

01:20:31.960 And so what happened at Evergreen was a very, it was a particular beat in our story that, that involves Trump, that involves gamer gear.

01:20:38.980 It was a particular beat where people are still not aware of the power of social media and still not aware that recording all this stuff and opening up to not just the slop hounds that are eating it as slop, but to the intellectual class who are worried about what is going on.

01:20:58.040 And then also witnessing, and then my job, when it was time for me to step up, because I was really pissed off, I went there to get a degree.

01:21:05.780 I went there and I thought that education meant something.

01:21:08.720 And when I got there, I realized that, no, it's just high school plus.

01:21:11.600 And this is a bunch of, this is a fairy land of racial resentment.

01:21:15.320 And they turned my entire degree into a racial justice degree where I went in there.

01:21:20.240 Were you just finishing your undergrad?

01:21:21.580 I was just finishing.

01:21:22.660 I started later.

01:21:23.780 I took a while.

01:21:24.940 Um, it was a very cheap place to go.

01:21:28.240 Were you just finishing up when it all happened, right?

01:21:30.200 Or you just finished the summer before, was it?

01:21:32.220 I just, I'd finished a few months before I had like a capstone project and I finished it.

01:21:38.180 This huge fricking book.

01:21:39.580 I finished it and I'm like, well, what do I do now?

01:21:41.620 And I'm like, well, I'll just do one more semester and then figure out what's next.

01:21:45.100 You know, maybe go to grad school.

01:21:46.540 Little did I know that the entire school system, somebody criticized me very recently for going to Evergreen College and not realizing that it was woke.

01:21:53.560 But I'm like, every single college is woke.

01:21:56.360 So no matter where you go, it's going to be woke.

01:21:58.820 I mean, just a little bit less woke than Evergreen.

01:22:01.220 But Harvard is, since George Floyd, it's all just as woke, if not more so.

01:22:07.200 Plus on paper, Evergreen looked, would have looked lovely.

01:22:10.380 Yeah.

01:22:10.960 Independent study.

01:22:11.580 On paper, it's like, this is a, this is a paradise.

01:22:13.740 Yeah.

01:22:14.280 Follow, just, uh, you, it's basically master's level work for undergraduate prices.

01:22:18.800 You get like a couple of teachers, then you go really deep, as deep as possible.

01:22:23.380 I mean, like the campus and the surroundings.

01:22:25.060 Oh, yeah.

01:22:25.900 You know, that's, that's lovely.

01:22:27.300 That is idyllic to me.

01:22:29.040 It looks like a little brutalist.

01:22:30.780 You couldn't have known that it would, that the time you spent there, at least towards the very end, descended into nonsense.

01:22:37.320 You couldn't have known that.

01:22:38.380 No.

01:22:38.580 Right.

01:22:38.740 And so, so Brett, Brett had a particular role and you can call him a hero or a villain based on his response to that.

01:22:46.240 But I think he, he served a particular function for the story.

01:22:49.220 There's other things that he did for himself, but for the story, for the historical moment, he served it in a particular way.

01:22:55.600 Um, and my job was to take all of, I, I worked in the media department while I was there and I was on camera recording all of these workshops, seminars, and lectures of just basic Maoist revolutionaryism.

01:23:12.900 Yeah.

01:23:13.300 And really, really cringe church services.

01:23:17.280 You guys have to watch, if you watch nothing, watch the, uh, the canoe meeting.

01:23:21.540 Yeah.

01:23:21.820 Where they worship the black person, uh, and they, they, they just, they start to worship the black people.

01:23:27.840 Um, I'm on camera the whole time.

01:23:29.900 And so it's not just a bunch of students behaving badly.

01:23:33.360 It's this entire institution implementing a particular ideology, intersectionality, uh, critical theory, whatever you want to call it, which is a whole story that we've probably, everybody's covered ad nauseum now, but to tie the students behavior to the professors.

01:23:49.080 And one key part of the documentary, one of the protesters, they, they go in and they take over this faculty meeting and they start eating the cake, uh, that was for somebody who was retiring.

01:23:59.940 And they say, you know, aren't you all, isn't, aren't we doing what you taught us?

01:24:05.240 You taught us to change the, on the, on the evergreen website, it says, it says to change the world.

01:24:10.060 And you taught us to do this.

01:24:12.640 So why are you not going along with this?

01:24:15.260 Why are you not storming the best deal as well?

01:24:18.240 Not that she knew what that would mean, but why are you not like rallying against us?

01:24:23.160 And the thing is that nobody really knows, like the really frustrating part of the documentary, the students are really upset about something and you never find out what they're actually upset about or what they actually want.

01:24:34.920 They want free grades and gumbo basically.

01:24:38.100 And they're mildly offended.

01:24:40.060 And there are professors to get back to your point.

01:24:42.460 There were professors who were aching that on, but what happened was that when George Bridges, the president at the time came in at 2015, he empowered.

01:24:50.740 He said, he said his first opening statement was that the history of racial justice is, is, is really great, but racism still controls everything in America right now.

01:25:01.980 And why we're here at this college is to solve racism.

01:25:05.760 And so he said that the purpose of the college was to end racism and he empowered these hyper anti-racist, racist teachers to, to take over the college.

01:25:17.020 And, and, and so when the students saw that, well, we can Machiavelli and they were all intuitively seeing that they could get infinite power by following these steps, the steps were already put in place by the doofus at the top.

01:25:31.920 And so when he's agreeing with them during the struggle sessions, he's not just allowing it to go forward.

01:25:39.040 He set it in motion and he wants it to go forward because this is how racism is solved.

01:25:44.420 These struggle sessions, this white guilt in, in, in a vice documentary.

01:25:48.600 And then I'll stop going on, but in the vice documentary, uh, the interviewer says, the students say that you're a white supremacist.

01:25:57.140 Are you a white supremacist?

01:25:58.760 And George Bridges, the president says, no, well, well, depends on how you define that, you know?

01:26:04.780 So they were so indoctrinated in this all the way up and down.

01:26:10.460 And I remember after that thing happened where they took over the campus and they had that struggle session and I go back on campus to do my little thing.

01:26:20.780 And I saw a black man walking across campus and I physically got scared and it was the most racist thing I've ever felt.

01:26:29.700 Like that man is a threat to me based purely on his skin.

01:26:33.820 And I, after feeling that that's what got me really angry because I, I don't think, I mean, everybody's a little racist.

01:26:39.540 I'm pretty sure, but they put me in that position to be viscerally hyper aware of racial tension.

01:26:46.120 And, and it was like, that was just totally inexcusable.

01:26:49.480 It's horrible, isn't it?

01:26:50.300 Totally inexcusable.

01:26:51.060 The way I go on screes about the Pakistani community or something.

01:26:54.820 It's like, I wasn't born that way.

01:26:56.340 Yeah.

01:26:56.600 I didn't ever think in those terms.

01:26:58.320 Yeah.

01:26:58.760 Until it was forced on.

01:27:00.020 Yeah.

01:27:00.500 Yeah.

01:27:00.760 Right.

01:27:01.080 What a horrible, what an evil thing.

01:27:03.500 Yeah.

01:27:03.980 Um, so who was the, who was the female black member of staff who was?

01:27:08.460 Naim alone.

01:27:09.480 Yeah.

01:27:10.060 Yeah.

01:27:10.320 So a nexus, am I right?

01:27:12.200 Is it fair to say that sort of a nexus between Bridges and her, neither could have done it on their own?

01:27:21.000 Right.

01:27:21.460 I mean, the students, the foot soldiers, of course, big part of it and something else.

01:27:26.180 And, but you would need, you need both.

01:27:29.020 You needed both the, the, the, the super sort of the president really to allow it to happen.

01:27:35.640 Yeah.

01:27:35.780 And then, and then the actual, the actual catalyst or the actual agitator to live it out and make

01:27:44.280 it happen and become real.

01:27:45.740 Yeah.

01:27:46.260 Uh, Naomi Lowe worked in the media department too.

01:27:50.580 And do you speak to her quite?

01:27:52.700 I, I helped her out of any sort of interaction with, I, we had one interaction.

01:27:57.020 She was rather rude to me.

01:27:58.340 She needed my help for a technical, her whole job was to teach how to use Final Cut Pro and

01:28:04.300 she didn't know how to use Final Cut Pro.

01:28:05.960 She just like, of course, she didn't know how to do anything.

01:28:09.260 I mean, her, her films are technically okay, but they worship ugliness, um, which is just

01:28:15.100 really interesting because she's a postmodernist.

01:28:18.060 Um, and that's just what's in her heart.

01:28:19.460 But some, one of the, one of the staff said, you know, she, she teaches 16 credits in eight.

01:28:24.200 Like the students go in wanting to learn anti-racist who is in fact a massive racist.

01:28:29.820 Yeah.

01:28:29.940 No.

01:28:30.280 Yeah.

01:28:30.680 It's all about grievance.

01:28:32.500 Yeah.

01:28:32.660 I went to, I went to one of the showings earlier on, like my first quarter there, I went to one

01:28:37.200 of the showings of her, of her students to go and check out like the art that's happening

01:28:41.820 on.

01:28:42.140 Cause I want to be involved in the creative aspects of life.

01:28:46.400 That's why I was there to take time off of the real world and figure out how to possibly

01:28:51.320 make a dent in a artist's career.

01:28:54.420 So I went there and they just talked about themselves the whole time.

01:28:58.540 It was just fart huffing central man.

01:29:02.520 And, and Naima Lowe has a particular, and you can see this just supreme resentment, supreme

01:29:10.060 resentment, very interesting psychology.

01:29:12.140 And, and when I did my first video, which I didn't know, I didn't even know what I was

01:29:16.680 getting into.

01:29:17.440 I'm just like, everybody thinks this is a bunch of students going wild, but there's a huge

01:29:22.260 story here.

01:29:22.840 So I started publishing videos and when I got around to, well, I need to make a video about

01:29:26.720 Naima cause I have all this footage of Naima giving all these, all these lectures about

01:29:32.060 power and, and, and racial resentment and how you can't escape the fact that I'm a black

01:29:37.880 woman in a white world and how I fear for my life every time I step out of the door.

01:29:41.860 Which is not the case.

01:29:44.620 Like there was a shooting.

01:29:45.660 It's lies.

01:29:46.020 Let's call it what it is.

01:29:47.040 Lies.

01:29:47.640 Yeah.

01:29:47.920 Well, yeah.

01:29:48.580 A lie that turns into like total psychosis because it's not based on truth.

01:29:52.880 I mean, if she believed it, but there was a shooting a year before the protests where

01:29:58.100 two black, two young black drunk men assaulted a police officer with a skateboard.

01:30:03.640 They ran after a police officer with a skateboard and got shot and it's the police officer's fault.

01:30:08.480 Right.

01:30:09.300 Cause like, why are these black youths going around getting shot everywhere?

01:30:12.560 It's like, well, don't assault a police officer with your skateboard.

01:30:16.620 What are you telling you?

01:30:18.000 I am armed.

01:30:18.880 I'm going to fire.

01:30:19.560 If you do that, it's stupid.

01:30:20.960 And then they ended up going to prison because they ended up fighting over a cell phone.

01:30:24.520 Those two brothers that did that thing.

01:30:25.780 It's just, the whole thing's a train wreck, but Naima Lo saw that, latched onto it.

01:30:30.200 It's like finally something that I can make my, my project.

01:30:33.960 That's disgusting.

01:30:34.700 I mean, it's evil.

01:30:35.460 It's just, it's cringe upon cringe upon cringe upon cringe upon cringe upon cringe.

01:30:40.160 But how much is that?

01:30:41.460 Well, everything about evergreen is sort of, you know, in a bad negative way.

01:30:47.200 Perfect.

01:30:49.020 Isn't it beautiful?

01:30:49.900 It's like this beautiful thing.

01:30:51.800 It's like, how many, again, throughout history, so many times where I think of something like,

01:30:56.920 I don't know, maybe like the Jim Jones thing, or I think of the, the, the events that went

01:31:05.020 down at, Dan Carlin did a great podcast about it, at Munster in the, in the 16th century,

01:31:14.400 there was a very particular set of events went down in Munster.

01:31:17.060 Something similar, a relatively small community that descends into madness and hell because

01:31:22.460 two or three very, very key people make it happen.

01:31:26.440 Make it happen.

01:31:27.200 Yeah.

01:31:27.800 And they, all the events are manipulated and contrived to go down and down and down.

01:31:36.080 Yeah.

01:31:36.340 Yeah.

01:31:36.760 Yeah.

01:31:37.160 Thank God that evergreen didn't end in sort of some terrible, terrible violence.

01:31:41.860 No, it wasn't.

01:31:42.780 That's another really interesting thing.

01:31:45.520 Cause I had to go through with all this really crappy footage and transcribe it.

01:31:50.780 And there's this one extended like three or four hour long struggle session where you

01:31:55.920 have a perfect word as well for it.

01:31:57.280 Just briefly say they are struggle sessions.

01:31:58.920 No, they are.

01:31:59.500 It's exactly.

01:32:00.000 It's all Maoist.

01:32:00.820 And they, they had Robin DiAngelo come in and teach them how to do this, which is no great

01:32:07.460 stain on her illustrious character.

01:32:09.540 But still you, you watch them like a pack of hyenas, like taking nips, taking nips.

01:32:14.700 Like, why don't they, I just wonder, why aren't they, why don't they, why don't they cross

01:32:19.020 the line?

01:32:19.920 Why don't they cross the line?

01:32:20.960 And I was, I was asking somebody about this.

01:32:22.920 Cause they never did, did they?

01:32:24.000 They didn't cross the line.

01:32:24.940 There was one kind of alteration, which was really silly.

01:32:29.160 But like, it was silly.

01:32:30.820 It's like, you guys have to watch the documentary.

01:32:32.920 It's just, everything is so just like this comedy of terror.

01:32:39.660 Right.

01:32:40.280 In this way.

01:32:41.360 Yeah.

01:32:41.580 But there, uh, somebody was telling me about why they don't go violent and he watched the

01:32:45.900 footage too.

01:32:46.420 And he was, I think he was a biologist and he talked about like some dog packs when the

01:32:51.220 youth are like learning how to be violent together.

01:32:53.860 They'll, they'll do that.

01:32:55.120 They'll, they'll like go after like something and, and not quite get violent, but just like

01:32:59.360 kind of tease each other and mimic violence, but they're not right, quite ready to be violent.

01:33:04.220 And they know they can, and they already know that they can go as far as possible.

01:33:07.940 Not as long as they don't cross that line, they're totally good.

01:33:10.760 They can get away with anything, um, because obviously that's just how the power structure

01:33:15.700 was set up.

01:33:16.920 Yeah.

01:33:18.060 But yeah, I just want to return to the point that when you see hit pieces on Brett, they

01:33:23.300 will pin a lot of the responsibility of what happened on him.

01:33:26.020 And he was not even, they, the protesters even said he was not the point of this thing.

01:33:30.760 They just picked the wrong guy to pick on because he, because he didn't think that the equity

01:33:36.760 committee, which is the, there's gotta be like some sort of like,

01:33:40.760 commissar term for it.

01:33:42.180 Like some sort of like this political body that then rules the entire corporation.

01:33:47.580 He didn't think that the equity committee should be in charge of firing and hiring people.

01:33:51.680 He didn't think that we should have these race, anti-racist statements in our yearly portfolio,

01:33:56.760 because that could be grounds to politically fire somebody because they weren't significantly

01:34:00.640 anti-racist, right?

01:34:02.440 That has nothing to do with.

01:34:03.600 And he just stood up for that.

01:34:04.720 And he just like typed some letters that were very well-meaning.

01:34:06.960 He was a super Bernie bro.

01:34:08.460 He was super progressive.

01:34:10.280 Yeah.

01:34:10.440 He was super duper progressive.

01:34:11.820 That's the irony, isn't it?

01:34:12.860 Yeah.

01:34:13.240 That's something that's almost funny from someone looking out.

01:34:15.640 Yeah.

01:34:15.960 Who isn't even a leftist.

01:34:17.000 It's almost funny.

01:34:18.120 Yeah.

01:34:18.640 Sorry.

01:34:19.040 That they, their own.

01:34:20.060 So like when you say there are a few key peoples, he's a key people, he's a key person

01:34:24.820 in turning it into what it turned into, like on a media level and allowing the sunlight

01:34:29.100 in.

01:34:29.480 But the actual thing that happened were a couple of key students, a couple of key faculty,

01:34:36.180 and then George Bridges setting up the institution.

01:34:39.240 And then actually you can't, you can't forget that this was 2017.

01:34:43.860 Trump 1.0 just gets elected.

01:34:46.940 Everybody on campus was really certain that concentration camps were going to be set up.

01:34:52.440 That's how, and that is the fault of Hillary Clinton, her super PACs, and the media industrial

01:34:59.960 complex or the cathedral, whatever you want to call it, that is this very day paying the

01:35:03.940 price for doing that.

01:35:05.540 This is all a point.

01:35:06.980 All I wanted to do was write books.

01:35:08.400 All Carl wanted to do was play video games.

01:35:10.120 And these people just couldn't leave us alone.

01:35:11.980 So it's not enough.

01:35:13.120 This is where I go, right?

01:35:14.680 It's not enough to be a libertarian because you're never going to be able to grill until

01:35:17.900 you get that Chesterton's fence up and electrified now.

01:35:21.220 Right?

01:35:21.580 It's great.

01:35:23.180 I think you described it brilliant when you said it was a beat.

01:35:26.080 It was a beat in the greater song of what's happening.

01:35:31.120 Of contemporary.

01:35:31.980 Yeah.

01:35:32.900 I would advise anyone who doesn't know to go back and watch those.

01:35:36.160 They're in sort of 20, the 24 part series you hear in sort of 20 minute blocks.

01:35:39.960 Yeah.

01:35:40.140 It's very digestible.

01:35:41.620 Fascinating.

01:35:42.260 Yeah.

01:35:42.780 I think it's fascinating.

01:35:43.900 If you're, if you're hungry to return to like a cringe, like the high seas of cringe days,

01:35:48.640 the leftists, unfortunately, after Trump won again, aren't supplying too many tears for us.

01:35:53.640 So if you want to revisit that point in history where things were totally unhinged.

01:35:57.840 Feels like they are a bit burnt out now.

01:35:59.560 Yeah.

01:35:59.980 Yeah.

01:36:00.300 This is, this is when they still had a wad blow, so to speak.

01:36:03.580 So one last, a couple of last things before we wrap up, because I could, I could chat

01:36:08.700 to you for so many hours.

01:36:09.980 It's so great to be here with you though.

01:36:11.600 I wanted to ask you, you've mentioned that you've, in your opinion anyway, the constant

01:36:17.020 kissing thing was not your finest work.

01:36:20.260 I didn't think that at all.

01:36:21.220 I never thought.

01:36:22.080 But anyway, is there anything that sticks out in your mind as one of your favorite ones

01:36:26.280 or once you, any interview or any bit of content you made that you thought was particularly

01:36:29.760 good or you're particularly happy with, or you very much enjoyed that conversation or

01:36:36.160 anything like, or any, even topics like, are you sick of the gender stuff now or, or are

01:36:41.900 you like, you know, does anything particularly stick out in your mind over the years of that

01:36:46.720 was great.

01:36:47.420 I really enjoyed that.

01:36:48.460 Well, it's probably, it speaks to my excellent, humble character that I don't have one on hand

01:36:58.700 because I don't, because I keep on like, I keep on thinking, well, what's next?

01:37:02.000 What's next?

01:37:02.700 There's a couple of key moments in the detransition series where you get to this, such this raw state

01:37:10.120 of this, this kid who got subjected to some terrible treatment and like recognizing that

01:37:18.340 they're responsible for it.

01:37:19.880 And just like seeing like, you know what?

01:37:21.740 I just, I, I always wanted love and I didn't want to, I, and I never knew how to love myself.

01:37:28.360 And that's what it is.

01:37:29.420 And the, this really like a hallmark moment, but when a human being is like really on that

01:37:34.740 level of vulnerability and it just feels like to be able to, to receive and to broadcast

01:37:42.240 that level of humanity, I just feel so blessed and gifted to be able to facilitate that.

01:37:50.780 And then I guess there's a couple of moments where, you know, I, sometimes I, I just, I,

01:37:56.040 I'm on Twitter cause I need content.

01:37:57.560 So I see, I hear of somebody and before watching, you know, maybe I'll like just listen to a 30

01:38:03.020 second clip.

01:38:03.660 I'm like, yeah, they know how to speak.

01:38:05.540 That's all I need.

01:38:06.260 I need you to know how to speak.

01:38:07.300 And there's something there and I just reach out and I have them on and, and then I totally

01:38:11.320 forget who that person was.

01:38:12.580 And I look them up like 20 minutes before I'm like, Oh, I have this person.

01:38:15.040 What am I going to talk about?

01:38:16.000 And I just get quiet and, and I go through like an hour and a half and I'm just blown

01:38:20.300 away.

01:38:20.780 I just, I have no idea what's going to happen in the interview.

01:38:24.060 And afterwards I'm like, that was a good show.

01:38:26.620 That was, I just feel bigger or better, uh, for having met that person.

01:38:32.280 I, I kind of like that.

01:38:33.860 No, that's great.

01:38:34.600 It's, it's, and that's, that's something that, that, um,

01:38:38.000 that's why I'm not like one of the top tier interviewers on, on, uh, on YouTube or anywhere.

01:38:43.440 I don't do any prep.

01:38:44.660 I don't want to, I, and I could do prep and I'm kind of, it's partly because I'm lazy and

01:38:48.680 it's partly because I don't, I want to just, I want the, I loved writing for the first half

01:38:55.580 of my life.

01:38:56.080 I loved writing.

01:38:57.640 And the best part of writing was seeing that blank page and having no idea what was going

01:39:02.340 to happen.

01:39:02.980 And then the worst part is like having a marked up page that I have to then rewrite and rewrite

01:39:07.260 it.

01:39:07.360 And I had my biggest lesson that I learned at evergreen was that you just have to rewrite

01:39:12.560 and just go over and over and over and just really love that, which you've made and make

01:39:17.320 it better.

01:39:18.080 Um, instead of shying away, it's like, it has to be perfect the first time, like really

01:39:21.960 understanding, like to, to really sink myself into something.

01:39:25.860 Um, but with the interviews I love, cause you know, like you had an idea when we walked

01:39:32.660 in here, but if you were closed minded that you only had that idea, and that's why I hate

01:39:36.660 about interviews, certain interviewers.

01:39:38.500 When I watch an interview, like they have an idea of how to, what they want to talk about.

01:39:42.180 And so they'll go and somebody will say something and then they'll like, okay, next question.

01:39:45.980 I hate that.

01:39:46.640 So I go a little too far.

01:39:48.460 I have nothing there.

01:39:49.760 And then it's just like, okay, let's, let's see what happens.

01:39:52.900 And just being wide open to them.

01:39:56.300 I heard one more thing.

01:39:57.700 I heard this is stuck in my head.

01:39:59.820 It's another Hallmark thing.

01:40:01.140 It's a really good, it's a quote.

01:40:02.800 I don't know who it's from, but expectations are premeditated resentment in a way.

01:40:09.060 And in the context of a marriage or a relationship, it's really something I'm trying to like really

01:40:14.320 understand, but I think in little day-to-day things like having an expectation, it leads

01:40:19.400 to like a feeling of disappointment that wouldn't be there.

01:40:22.840 But at the same time, it's kind of like my fault for not being as prepared.

01:40:26.720 I could be a lot better professional if I was a little bit more prepared, but I think

01:40:31.680 there's a, there's this balance that I'm playing around with.

01:40:33.840 I like that raw, dirty, YouTube-y kind of just see what happens kind of.

01:40:39.220 No, I absolutely think you do it great.

01:40:41.280 I mean, that's sort of one, if I've got any sort of philosophy for interviewing people,

01:40:45.680 it is simply to have a conversation, not to try and railroad them in any real way.

01:40:52.680 I've got an idea of how I want a conversation to go.

01:40:54.960 That's what I do when, sometimes when I do my history theme content, quite often, at least

01:40:58.800 in recent times, it's just me or my own monologuing, but often it's in a conversation with someone.

01:41:04.140 And just make it a conversation.

01:41:06.180 Let it go wherever it's going to go.

01:41:07.660 That comes through in your stuff.

01:41:10.380 And I think that, I think that's great.

01:41:12.580 Yeah.

01:41:12.720 I hate it when someone, they pose a question, wait for them to say until they've finished

01:41:16.380 speaking and then just go on to their next question.

01:41:19.260 It's like, what?

01:41:20.380 Just speak to the person, just have an interaction with them.

01:41:24.440 That's always going to be better.

01:41:25.960 Yeah.

01:41:26.160 I think, but, um, but okay.

01:41:28.340 So one last thing before we go, what is your sort of, have you got any sort of vision for

01:41:33.640 the future or any sort of ideas of what you want to do next?

01:41:36.740 Or are you already doing that?

01:41:38.000 Or what, what can we really expect to see from you and your channel going forward?

01:41:43.100 Yeah.

01:41:43.240 Do you think?

01:41:43.880 I, I'm always falling off a cliff.

01:41:46.220 I get to this point where I, I get to the point in my calendar where it just gets empty.

01:41:53.720 I'm like, oh crap, I have nothing.

01:41:56.680 And then I go on Twitter and I'm hungry.

01:41:59.480 I'm hungry for something like when the plates clean, then I get hungry.

01:42:02.960 But when I, then I'll stock it all up and then I'll not want to, and then I'll get exhausted

01:42:07.060 from talking to all these people.

01:42:08.560 And then, and then that empty calendar will come up and then I get hungry again.

01:42:12.520 So, uh, I'm really interested in, I, I, I have a love affair with, there's this writer

01:42:21.460 named Menchus Mulbug or Curtis Yarvin.

01:42:24.160 And I, I continually go back to his early work.

01:42:28.300 Um, he has this, uh, essay on like this huge nine hour, well, somebody turned it into an

01:42:35.380 AI Orson Welles reading the whole thing, which is just hilarious to read Yarvin through Orson

01:42:40.500 Welles voice.

01:42:41.000 But I, there's something in his early work that saw everything that happened at Evergreen

01:42:45.860 and saw everything that happened with Trump and with describing the power structure as

01:42:51.340 it is.

01:42:52.180 And he's been recently rather wrong about how to undo that.

01:42:57.860 And Trump's coming in like a wrecking ball, but it seems like what Curtis was describing

01:43:02.660 with regard to American power was really on point.

01:43:06.960 And I think, I think he, I think he's one of the most important thinkers or theoreticians,

01:43:12.220 political thinkers right now.

01:43:13.560 So he sparked this, he's, his work led to a number of different other people reading

01:43:20.460 him and then reading who he was reading.

01:43:22.300 And those, those are the people who are described, who I described as the descendant, right?

01:43:27.060 And they've gone in all these different directions.

01:43:29.160 Like there's more Christian nationalists, more race realist people, uh, more people that are

01:43:33.520 in the center, more, uh, kind of post-liberalists, which I think is probably the correct term for

01:43:38.660 a lot of the people that big broad thing.

01:43:40.880 Um, uh, James Lindsay, great friend, love him.

01:43:44.820 I've had like, I've had him on for hours and hours and hours.

01:43:47.680 He describes them as woke, right?

01:43:49.060 I really disagree with that, but whatever he's talking about post-right, he means, uh,

01:43:53.860 or woke, right is post-liberal.

01:43:55.720 So we're in a post-liberal moment and there's, there's this on the, on the not left, let's

01:44:03.000 say there's a lot of discussion and there's a lot of ideas and there's a lot of energy there.

01:44:08.180 I've just, I've done so much on the anti-woke stuff and I've done so much on the woke stuff

01:44:14.040 that I'm looking for the positive vision.

01:44:15.960 And I think the positive vision comes from the sparks between different personalities.

01:44:20.380 And I think I'm uniquely positioned and that's why I've tried to do this to establish friends,

01:44:25.480 friendship with this group of people and to really capture their personalities because

01:44:31.200 they're really, they're personality people and they, they run on charisma and intelligence

01:44:37.860 and so I just really want to continue to map out that domain.

01:44:41.840 And there's probably some other things that I'm not aware of, but I am looking for the

01:44:45.700 next thing.

01:44:46.260 I think right now that's really salient with what's happening with Trump, but I don't know

01:44:50.820 what the next theme will be.

01:44:52.400 So I'm always open to where's, where's something that the attention's, where's the puck going?

01:44:57.320 Like with the detransitioner stuff, I got ahead of that puck and now it's pretty mainstream.

01:45:03.300 People know about it.

01:45:04.220 Focus on the family.

01:45:05.480 Did a film about them.

01:45:06.800 Prager U did a film based on that.

01:45:09.160 So it's basically, and I've gone through that and I was, I was ahead of the curve because

01:45:12.960 I sensed something.

01:45:13.740 I want to like be able to continue that and maybe go into like kind of dangerous waters.

01:45:19.200 But I think, I think, oh, look at Peterson hands, Peterson hands.

01:45:27.180 I think if you follow your curiosity and you keep yourself clean in a way, you can sense,

01:45:32.340 you can sense signals that otherwise you couldn't perceive with your mind.

01:45:36.120 So I'm really trying to just be open.

01:45:38.020 Where's the next thing going to be?

01:45:39.740 And I don't want, I'm fine with a bunch of people coming in afterwards when the audience

01:45:45.240 is ripe and reaping the rewards of the attention on that.

01:45:48.760 I really want to be the forward guard on the, not the culture war, but of the culture growth,

01:45:55.200 I guess.

01:45:55.900 Right.

01:45:56.280 Maybe.

01:45:56.760 That's interesting.

01:45:58.420 Myself have started to think about and will begin to start writing about post-Trump.

01:46:04.700 Yeah.

01:46:06.100 Because it's not that long, in the scheme of things, that's not that long, long way.

01:46:10.220 No.

01:46:10.340 When you get to sort of our age, four years isn't any time.

01:46:13.020 No, no, yeah.

01:46:13.520 Four years goes like that.

01:46:14.240 It's nothing.

01:46:15.140 So looking forward, not as in looking forward, I can't wait.

01:46:18.900 It's going to be great.

01:46:19.380 I mean, looking forward to what happens post-Trump, what will that be?

01:46:24.440 What might it look like?

01:46:27.080 And so on.

01:46:27.980 Yeah.

01:46:28.120 No, fascinating stuff.

01:46:29.300 Yeah.

01:46:29.540 I would love to have you on to talk about whatever historical personage or event you would want

01:46:37.200 to, but also just to riff on your lay of the land.

01:46:41.740 I mean, historically, there's got to be a historical lens that can be used to shore up our vision

01:46:49.000 of the present, you know?

01:46:50.420 And then also, if you're working on this, you have to have some sense of stability with

01:46:56.540 regards to what you're talking about.

01:46:57.880 Like, if Trump's doing this here, there's these other structures that are going to be

01:47:01.800 affected.

01:47:02.340 So it'd be fun to riff on that when and if you're ready to do that.

01:47:06.260 No, absolutely.

01:47:07.140 It could break one of two ways.

01:47:08.240 It could just be the implosion and death of the Republic and Civil War, or it could be

01:47:13.200 a new golden age, an absolute better than America, more successful in every metric than

01:47:22.280 America has ever been thus far.

01:47:24.460 A true hegemon of the earth for centuries to come, or a complete implosion.

01:47:30.100 It could go either way.

01:47:30.920 So unfortunately, that's taken us up right up to the end of the time.

01:47:35.000 We can't go much longer because of what our producers have to do before they can go home.

01:47:39.680 This is great.

01:47:41.260 Well, sorry, guys.

01:47:41.860 Thank you very, very much for coming in.

01:47:44.000 No, thank you very much.

01:47:44.840 It's been a pleasure to meet you in person.

01:47:46.400 Yeah, absolutely.

01:47:47.120 An absolute honor and a pleasure.

01:47:48.600 And I mean that really, really sincerely.

01:47:51.840 And if and when you ever come back to good old Blighty, you must visit us again.

01:47:56.820 Absolutely.

01:47:57.480 And so thank you.

01:47:59.500 Thank you very much, Bo.

01:48:00.400 All right.

01:48:00.900 And anyone out there, if you haven't already, subscribe to Benjamin A. Boyce.

01:48:05.360 Yeah.

01:48:06.460 And it's conversations on podcasts.

01:48:09.520 Conversations.

01:48:10.500 Conversations.

01:48:11.400 Okay.

01:48:11.820 Until next time.

01:48:12.780 Thank you very much.

01:48:13.360 Take care.

01:48:26.500 Bye.

01:48:51.920 Bye.

01:48:52.980 Bye.

01:48:54.540 Bye.

01:48:54.940 Bye.

01:48:55.500 Bye.

The Podcast of the Lotus Eaters - March 03, 2025

The Boyce of Reason ｜ Interview with Benjamin Boyce

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