On today's show, we discuss the death of a homeless man in a police chokehold, the Barstool Sports firing of a hip hop host, the KISS frontman Paul Stanley walking back a controversial comment about transgender kids, and much, much more.
00:00:21.000The man, three people were trying to subdue him and then in the effort to subdue him, the guy died.
00:00:27.000It was ruled a homicide and now you have protesters calling for charges of this marine and things are starting to get a little hectic.
00:00:33.000Police are calling for help as things kind of heat up but We're going to get into the nuances of that discussion, so I'll save a little bit.
00:00:46.000Barstool Sports fired one of their hosts for rapping lyrics that contain an offensive word.
00:00:52.000I don't necessarily think it's fair to call what he said a slur, because he wasn't calling anybody the word, but, you know, he said the word, and then Penn Entertainment was like, you're fired, and now Dave Portnoy is like, I don't know, there's nothing I can do, I sold the company, so, we'll get into that, plus a whole bunch of other stories, and, um...
00:01:43.000So if you want to support the show and support our work, go to casprew.com.
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00:02:17.000Joining us tonight to talk about this and so much more is Lance from the Serfs.
00:02:36.000I thought there was just like some samurai swords and like the occasional gun or something, but there's like... That's a real Civil War rifle.
00:02:42.000There's a real Civil War musket in the camera.
00:02:55.000I do politics, comedy from a dumpster fire perspective, and I have opinions, and sometimes people like to hear those opinions, and then they tune in to listen to them.
00:04:26.000We've talked off-air a good bit, but it's just funny that it's like, I just realized this is our first episode we're both doing together, because I've been seeing you for the past two weeks.
00:04:33.000Yeah, we went, last time we talked, we were talking about like, I brought a vice.
00:04:36.000I was talking about, oh, alcohol, so your vice, or whatever.
00:04:39.000I said, I think that was the real point of contention, and everyone's like, Ian, you're such a dick.
00:04:43.000I was like, I was just talking to Seamus.
00:05:46.000Outrage continues to grow over deadly subway chokehold encounter.
00:05:50.000The death of a subway rider who was put into a chokehold by a former Marine on the train has been ruled a homicide, and now activists are calling for charges to be filed.
00:05:58.000They have planned several protests and rallies on Thursday, as the NYPD has issued a call for public help in their investigation.
00:06:06.000Jordan Neely, 30, died from a compression of the neck, the city's medical examiner determined Wednesday.
00:06:10.000Neely is recognizable to some New Yorkers as a Michael Jackson impersonator who regularly danced in the Times Square Transit Hub.
00:06:17.000On Monday afternoon, he was yelling and pacing back and forth on an F train in Manhattan.
00:06:21.000Witnesses and police said when he was restrained by at least three people, including a U.S.
00:06:26.000Marine veteran who pulled one arm tightly around his neck.
00:06:29.000A physical struggle ensued, leading to Neely losing consciousness.
00:06:33.000He was rushed to Lenox Hill Hospital, where he was pronounced dead.
00:06:35.000On Wednesday, a medical examiner determined Neely's death was a homicide.
00:06:39.000However, that does not mean the case will be prosecuted as a homicide.
00:06:42.000Okay, that's the stupidest bit of writing I've ever heard.
00:06:49.000So what they're trying to say is, though the death was ruled a homicide, it does not mean the case will be prosecuted as a murder.
00:06:57.000That is up to the, uh, Manhattan DA's office, which is investigating.
00:07:00.000But I suppose I'm probably being a little bit too harsh, because you can, uh, they're not being clear here.
00:07:05.000You can make the argument there's reckless homicide, there's negligent homicide, and so what they're saying is, it's not clear that he will be criminally charged, they probably just should have said.
00:07:14.000They're going to say, as a part of our rigorous ongoing investigation, we'll review the medical examiner's report, assess all available video and photo footage, identify and interview as many witnesses as possible, and obtain additional medical records, read a statement from a spokesperson for the DA.
00:07:27.000So we've got video coming out of New York, protesters, I believe this was yesterday, We're seen in the streets, and the police made some arrests, and we'll get into it in a little bit, but one of our reporters, Eliyahu, was physically assaulted by one of the protesters and had his property destroyed while he was in the process of doing journalism.
00:07:47.000But let's just get down to brass tacks here, because I'm sure there's going to be a lot of arguments about this one.
00:07:52.000This is the story of a guy who was having a mental breakdown.
00:07:55.000I guess the news that recently came out was that he was a subway performer and his mental health collapsed after his, I think his mom was killed, is what they're reporting, and after that he kind of just lost it.
00:08:06.000And then he had been arrested 40 times.
00:08:08.000He had once punched a 67-year-old woman in the face.
00:08:12.000And so, as he was belligerent and on the subway, reportedly threatening people, saying that he was ready to die and he would hurt people, this is when the three men subdued him.
00:08:23.000Reportedly, the Marine told everyone to call 911 and get the police down there.
00:08:28.000And then he ended up dying, which has resulted in the left, like AOC, whether or not people... I don't know if you consider her left, but AOC... Yeah, she's progressive.
00:08:39.000And now you've got protesters calling for this guy to be arrested.
00:08:42.000They're saying he committed a murder, and I think this is actually a really good example of what is described as a narco-tyranny, in that you had 25 people pushed onto subway tracks in the past year.
00:08:54.000You've had, like, a woman get raped on a train in Philadelphia.
00:08:58.000And we don't hear a single peep from any of these politicians, from any of these activists, until someone actually stops the guy.
00:09:05.000If you go back seven years... Who kills him, right?
00:09:10.000So when someone is being violent and then someone else acts in self-defense of others and the person dies in the process, now there's all of a sudden calls for, okay, so this guy should be criminally charged, but there was no call for stopping the 25 people being pushed on the subway tracks.
00:09:25.000That's an ongoing and acceptable thing.
00:09:28.000I'm never gonna sit here and try and defend people pushing people on the subway tracks.
00:09:30.000That's a crime, like, that's terrible.
00:09:33.000Yeah, exactly, especially if they die, so that's horrible.
00:09:36.000No one's gonna be on the other side of that argument, but in terms of, like, the guy who just got killed, isn't, and you can correct me if I'm wrong on this, doesn't, in self-defense, the proportionality of what you're doing has to be in response to the actual aggressive actions of the person, right?
00:09:51.000So you feel in your mind that it was a proportional response for him to choke him out to death in that situation because he was going to become such a threat to the person who choked him out.
00:10:12.000No, but what has to be material, Tim, has to be... Are you making a proportionality argument?
00:10:16.000Yes, I'm asking you that because is what he did proportional to the threat?
00:10:21.000So the threat that he was going to do... It is proportional to subdue someone that is threatening other people and saying he'll die in the process.
00:10:28.000And end up killing him, even if that was... So, see, now you're doing it again.
00:11:57.000So if someone tried illegally entering my home, I will use whatever force necessary to stop them from illegally entering my home, right?
00:12:05.000I have the legal justification in the state that I live in to use whatever force necessary to stop someone from entering my home illegally.
00:12:14.000Now, you can't invite someone in, and there's actually some legal barriers here.
00:12:17.000Like, if someone actually walks up to your house and the door is open and they walk in, that's actually not an illegal entry.
00:12:23.000It is to a certain degree, but it's like trespass.
00:12:25.000It's like your door was open, there was no obstruction, and then you'll make an argument about entering the domicile could be considered fourth-degree burglary, depending on which state you're in.
00:12:32.000If they actually open the door and enter, they've now committed felony burglary.
00:12:36.000And you are entitled in West Virginia to use whatever force necessary to stop someone from illegally entering your house.
00:12:41.000That doesn't mean you just intend to actually kill someone.
00:12:45.000So in terms of, we're out in the street, someone is threatening someone else.
00:12:49.000You are legally entitled to subdue them.
00:12:51.000Now, even if that sub, like, even the act of doing that, it could kill them.
00:14:27.000MythInformed has it, seven years ago, this man was called a hero for defusing violence by putting another man in a chokehold.
00:14:33.000A man in the subway was getting up in people's faces, and he was threatening them, and another man got up behind him and put him in a chokehold, and he was put on national television, and he was celebrated as a hero for doing so.
00:14:43.000So, this is what I'm talking about, anarcho-tyranny.
00:14:45.000I feel like you're latching onto this completely from a point of, you don't have knowledge on proper technique for subduing an individual.
00:14:56.000But, see, that's kind of an absurd thing to just outright Well, look, I'm going to say this guy committed a murder and should go to prison, but I'm not an expert and neither are you, therefore he should be convicted.
00:15:16.000That's why he wasn't charged, he was released.
00:15:18.000However, in this day and age, what's likely going to happen is a narco-tyranny.
00:15:22.000People go out in the streets, they protest, and the police say, for political reasons, we're going to go find this guy and we're going to arrest him.
00:15:31.000But if there's enough people on the train that are witness to what was happening, and they're like, yo, he was threatening all of us, then I think the cops are not going to mess with that guy.
00:15:40.000And there were three men trying to subdue him as he fought back.
00:15:43.000So there's no debate that this guy was acting violently and threatening people and even said he was prepared to die.
00:15:50.000At that point, you have what could be a terroristic threat.
00:15:54.000I think if a guy got on a train and screamed, I'm going to cause harm to people and then said he was willing to die, you'd probably want to stop him because there's signs all over the subway saying if you see something, say something.
00:16:05.000I suppose we could go the route of when Luke Rudkowski had that video, there was a guy in a subway with a knife stabbing people and the cop said, we're not going to get involved at all.
00:16:13.000And then some guy had to try and intervene himself.
00:18:41.000That's immaterial to a self-defense claim in proportionality.
00:18:44.000If this guy was threatening people, right, and then someone said, I'm going to stop you before you hurt someone, that is legal self-defense acting in the defense of others.
00:18:54.000That makes those people who are stopping the guy threatening people the victims of a violent individual who is trying to cause harm.
00:19:02.000I just find it fascinating that there's an effort to defend the aggressor in this circumstance, right?
00:19:08.000Oh, so you're suggesting that the guys, even if the guys that were choking out weren't the ones being threatened, that they're still considered a victim because they stepped in to defend other people?
00:19:15.000Well, I'm saying outright that if you're on a train and there's a guy, you're on a train, you can't get off that train.
00:19:49.000What does that have to do with what I said?
00:19:51.000That's why I understand your thought process.
00:19:53.000I would think that the proportionality being that you ended up killing them, even if that was not your intent, I understand that you don't think he intended to do that, fine, but even if that was it, were they, like, threats to him in the immediate, like, present?
00:20:06.000Were they on the verge of committing an act of violence towards him that required proportional violence that ended up in death?
00:20:13.000But it's not a requirement someone threatens you for you to act in defense of others.
00:20:53.000I would say anybody shoving someone in front of a train at random is like going through an episode, you know what I mean?
00:20:58.000The correlation is that crime and murder on the subway has been increasing, or has at least been apparent in the press, but I don't see you caring about it at all.
00:21:08.000Until it's the aggressor who gets killed.
00:21:10.000No one, I think, on the left is going to defend this stat that you're pulling.
00:21:14.000Then why put a guy in prison for finally saying, stop killing people?
00:21:17.000This is like, Tim, if I approached you today and I was like, hey, do you know what goes on in Rikers Island?
00:21:21.000Have any of you done a show on what happens in Rikers Island?
00:21:23.000How they hold people in Rikers Island?
00:21:24.000Do you know what- Not Rikers Island specifically, but we talk about prison reform all the time.
00:21:28.000Okay, do you know about bail reform and the fact that people die in Rikers Island waiting, waiting to have their day in court because they can't afford it.
00:21:41.000Okay, so we actually talked about one guy who got wrongly arrested, lost his job, was kicked out of his apartment, went to Rikers for three months, only to be released, and then told, sorry, there's nothing you can do about it.
00:21:51.000The city owes him nothing because they considered the prosecution not to be malicious.
00:21:58.000We talk about stuff like this all the time.
00:22:01.000The example you just gave me was not me talking about the systemic problem of people who are poor being in Rikers Island before they get to trial.
00:22:09.000They die before they get- they're not released.
00:22:11.000You just gave me a story of someone who was released prior to that.
00:22:12.000I'm giving you an example of a specific show we've actually talked about someone wrongly held and had their life destroyed.
00:22:50.000I'm not blaming you for not talking about that, Tim, because this is the problem of, like, you're judging someone based on absence, based on your absence of caring about something.
00:22:58.000Why haven't you talked about this, Lance?
00:22:59.000The fact that you haven't talked about this means that you don't care about that.
00:23:05.000My implication is, instead of helping us deal with this when we talk about it, you make up garbage about us and then post nonsense on the internet.
00:23:12.000What if I brought up garbage about people pushing people to trains?
00:23:15.000I'm not talking about you saying... I'm saying you don't talk about it, right?
00:23:20.000I'm not criticizing you for not talking about it.
00:23:22.000I'm saying, finally, when there are people who are like, we've had 25 people pushed in front of trains, we've had two of them killed, I'm not gonna let this person hurt somebody, it's y'all saying, that person should go to prison.
00:23:37.000Your protests, your support for the criminals make this worse.
00:23:40.000So our solution to this, if you're asking, when you're saying you, you mean the left, right?
00:23:44.000Our solution to a lot of this- You're speaking in support of the criminal, so I'm saying you.
00:23:48.000Okay, so I am saying that the solution to a lot of this would be investing very heavily in things like healthcare, and making sure that people have access to it, and not cutting the restrictions.
00:23:59.000Allowing people to have access to healthcare, not as a requirement based on how much money they have, based on their income, but allowing them to get the care they need, that would have gone a long way to preventing a problem like this, and future problems that are going to happen.
00:24:09.000I have no idea what's going on with the 25 people who've been pushed in front of trains, if it happens to be because people have mental illness.
00:24:15.000This is a tangible solution that we could work towards.
00:24:17.000This is something that I'm... Are you against that idea about investing heavily into mental health care, public health care?
00:24:32.000When this story comes out now, you, completely ignorant of what's been going on in New York, side with the criminal.
00:24:39.000And so people like me are flabbergasted that we've been focused on the issue of crime, the issue of mental health, the entire time, going back several years.
00:24:49.000And this is why I left New York, because two cops got murdered outside of my apartment.
00:25:00.000I have a problem with criminalizing people who are homeless or people who are poor or people who are mentally ill.
00:25:05.000I'm not saying he's a criminal for being poor.
00:25:07.000I'm saying he's a criminal because he threatened people with harm.
00:25:10.000Like incitement to violence is a crime, just like AOC says, right?
00:25:13.000I really want to see the start of this video footage.
00:25:15.000I want to see the moment where he was threatening the very people who tried to take him down.
00:25:18.000Look, either you accept that the witnesses, the media, and the police say this is what happened, or we can agree no one has any idea, so there's no point in even talking about it.
00:25:25.000I think the interesting maybe confluence is that you were mentioning preventative measures are a way to go about it.
00:25:32.000What do you think about defensive measures, like people should be armed and ready for this kind of thing regardless of the prevention methods?
00:25:37.000I mean, when it comes to defensive measures and people should be armed, I'm going to probably be on the exact opposite as the rest of you, because you're probably very pro-gun here, right?
00:25:47.000We don't have the same problems in Canada that you do in the United States for mass shootings, for mass gun violence, for that kind of stuff.
00:25:51.000You have 30 million people, don't you?
00:26:04.000Well, it's... I don't think it's fair to say uniquely American because there are mass shootings in many other countries.
00:26:09.000Oh, there is, but it's a uniquely American problem that it's disproportionately happening here.
00:26:13.000Well, mass killings aren't a uniquely American problem, but mass killings done with the use of firearms is much more uniquely American.
00:26:20.000I don't think anyone's going to debate that countries that have fewer firearms are going to have fewer people killing each other with firearms.
00:26:25.000It then becomes a moral question of whether it's... Australia has more per capita than the United States?
00:27:09.000My argument is simply that other nations do have higher rates, depending on the nation that you're looking at.
00:27:14.000There's still a pretty decently high homicide rate in a lot of developed countries, and there are a lot of mass killings.
00:27:20.000In the United States, those mass killings are generally carried out with firearms, but according to CDC studies, firearms are used to prevent more violent crimes each year than they're used to commit.
00:27:28.000So, it's a much more complex argument than simply saying the U.S.
00:27:31.000has more firearm deaths, therefore restricting firearm ownership would prevent those.
00:28:07.000So if we're going back to guns and the US versus Canada.
00:28:11.000When I said that there's G20, if we look at all the G20 countries, the United States, disproportionately by ratio of the population, has way more gun deaths, way more gun violence.
00:28:18.000And a lot of that gun violence, by the way, is people killing themselves, just so we're completely clear.
00:28:23.000If you look at it in the framework of, Canada has a very different set of rules for firearms than the United States does.
00:28:30.000You can still have a firearm in Canada, you just have to take a two-day course, and you get a license, and then you get gun training, and then you have the ability to buy guns.
00:28:36.000And that way, everyone has a license, they know how to use firearms properly, they're not just gonna be running around the streets pointing them, and then all that kind of shit.
00:29:30.000I would highly advocate for more training, but you're just suggesting that you can't force it on people?
00:29:34.000The Constitution, clearly, and according to the writings of the Founding Fathers, and to, I think, Heller vs.
00:29:40.000D.C., gun ownership is a human right, and the Constitution protects against government infringement of that right.
00:29:47.000That being said, we got the NFA, we got the updates to the NFA in the 80s, so certainly gun rights have been infringed to an absurd degree.
00:29:55.000Not to mention, back in the days when they codified the Constitution, people owned warships Privately.
00:30:02.000And Halliburton, Northrop Grumman, well I shouldn't say Halliburton, they're a construction thing, but Northrop Grumman, Boeing, etc.
00:30:34.000Regarding this dude that choked the guy out, I think what's going to come up is, was it adequate force or was it too much?
00:30:40.000And I feel like if he had punched the guy directly in the face, that would have been worse.
00:30:45.000Although, like if they got into a fistfight, because he could have fallen backward and hit his head, at least this he was in control of the guy's body.
00:30:51.000It's really sad that the guy died, but I feel like this was like a very low level amount of force to apply to someone that was threatening to kill people or hurt people.
00:31:01.000Find it necessary to try and stop this guy.
00:31:02.000He was probably flailing and kicking and screaming, you know, who knows?
00:31:05.000So it is hard, because you mentioned there's no footage prior, but something happened that resulted in three New York people, who are likely not conservatives, to decide this man must be subdued.
00:31:17.000So when it comes to the idea of proportionality, I'm like, if three New Yorkers of all people were like, this guy's got to be stopped, that's kind of crazy to me because, look, I'm a gun nut, right?
00:31:29.000My view is people have a right to defend themselves with a lot more force than people in New York do, but if people in New York felt they had to stop him, these people, you know, I doubt these guys are conservative, there's like no conservatives live in New York, it's like 20% Republican, and if they are Republican, they're probably moderate, right?
00:31:45.000But I don't even need to sit here and say what could have or what must have.
00:31:48.000What we know, what we choose to believe, based on what the police, the media, and the witnesses have said, is that this guy was threatening people with violence and said he was prepared to lose his life over it.
00:31:58.000Three men then said this man must be subdued and they subdued him.
00:32:09.000So you've got a massive platform here.
00:32:10.000A lot of people watch you all the time.
00:32:11.000And so what you say, obviously, and advocate for is going to affect a lot of people's lives.
00:32:16.000If this is a problem that genuinely concerns you, why isn't it something that you would frame and want to advocate for more resources for mental health access and bring that up on a regular basis?
00:32:25.000And I'm not saying... And I'm sure... Okay, hold on, Tim.
00:33:02.000I don't know why Republicans like that guy.
00:33:03.000The reason that they like him is because of the way that he stood up to communism, but I totally agree that he had a lot of really bad policies, and I'm not a stan.
00:33:11.000But conservatives have taken the stance of gun violence and mass shootings as an issue of mental health.
00:33:16.000and then the left takes the opposing. But do they invest in that? Do they vote for it?
00:33:20.000Well, of course not. The Republican Party is garbage. When I look up the votes of the
00:33:23.000Republican Party, they're not voting for amendments that are actually going to
00:33:26.000like give people more access to mental health. But you don't want to come onto a show where
00:33:34.000we say the Democratic and Republican Party should be dismantled and obliterated and then
00:33:37.000make an argument that one side is bad.
00:33:39.000I'll sit here and be like, bro, if you want to make a list of every single member of Congress who should be removed from office, I will put all of them but like four.
00:33:48.000One problem is that when people advocate for mental health, a lot of that advocation is more drugs, that this new drug will fix your brain.
00:33:54.000But I'm of the belief that less drugs allow you to fix your... Like, sometimes, for very short periods of time, you might need something to help, but then you don't want people long-term.
00:34:02.000I don't want them on psycho, you know, crazy pharmaceuticals that make them go, you know...
00:34:20.000Because when we do talk about this stuff, On, like, a normal day when news breaks of, like, 25 people push in front of trains, or a woman was raped on a train in Philadelphia, and we're sitting here saying, like, what is going on in these cities?
00:34:34.000What are the failed policies that are resulting in this?
00:34:38.000Today, we're talking about the fact that protesters went out in New York and physically assaulted one of our friends, a reporter, because he simply filmed them, and they are demanding criminal charges of the guy who tried to stop the violent offense.
00:34:54.000That when you have ongoing crime, when you have victimization, people being killed and a woman being raped on a train, we talk for a year, two years, three years.
00:35:03.000When the riots happened in 2020, we had Michael Tracy's reporting showing all the riots across the country and the mom-and-pop shops are putting up signs saying, please don't hurt us.
00:35:36.000But the problem I see is, this is why I refer to the left as NPCs or a cult.
00:35:42.000There's complete ignorance to the problem ongoing, and then a hyper-polarization in a single moment in the wrong direction, which makes the problem worse.
00:35:49.000You know what's so wild, is the other side feels the exact same way.
00:36:17.000I think when you talk about mental health and trying to solve the problem of mental health in this country, that is a deceptively simple way of putting it, right?
00:36:24.000Every single person in this room would have a very different idea of how that problem should be solved.
00:36:29.000And I agree with you that right now Republicans aren't doing a whole lot to talk about mental health issues.
00:36:34.000At least with respect to whatever mental health issue that this specific person is dealing with.
00:36:39.000But New York is not a Republican place.
00:36:44.000But he was saying, why don't Republicans do more to advocate for mental health treatment?
00:36:48.000My point, however, is that I think the kind of advocacy you'd see from conservatives on how to solve the problem of bad mental health in the United States would be a much different set of policy prescriptions than you would want.
00:37:03.000So what Ian said, so, and there's a number of different directions you could take this in.
00:37:08.000My fundamental belief is that we live in a culture that encourages man to live in ways that man is not meant to live, and you just see negative health outcomes from that, both mental and physical.
00:37:16.000However, when you look at traditional psychological definitions of mental illness and how we used to treat it, back in the 1950s, you had about 500,000 people in the United States in insane asylums.
00:37:28.000Okay, so without even adjusting for the increase in population size, there's a significantly lower number of people who are committed.
00:37:34.000And part of that is because the requirement to get somebody committed involuntarily to a mental health facility at that time was, they can't take care of themselves.
00:37:42.000Today, they have to demonstrate that they are a danger to themselves and others first, before they can be committed.
00:37:48.000Now, is someone not being able to take care of themselves necessarily the perfect indicator of whether they need to be committed to one of these institutions?
00:37:56.000However, what I do know is once we push the goalpost all the way in the other direction and say they have to demonstrate that they are a significant danger to themselves or others, oftentimes they don't get committed until after they've already hurt somebody.
00:38:06.000So it's a much more complicated situation than saying we just have to throw more money at this system when we don't even have a solid definition of what good mental health is and also at which point someone should be committed.
00:38:16.000So I think the important point, going back to what... I agree.
00:38:21.000This is not a conservative show, but if you are in a cult, you wouldn't know that.
00:38:28.000You would only hear what the cult says.
00:38:31.000So here's what I have to respond to that.
00:38:33.000If an objective person, say an alien, just showed up and looked at your channel, Tim, and went through all the videos, and you were to ask them, poll them, is this person and his views, where would you place them?
00:38:42.000Most likely, they would say conservative.
00:38:46.000But more because the guests that come on tend to identify.
00:38:47.000Not just the guests, but the way they're framed, the thumbnails, the words that you put in red, and whether or not you're supporting or going against one, either the Democrats or the Republicans.
00:38:55.000But hey, you tell me that you guys don't like the Democrats and you don't like the Republicans.
00:39:07.000But there's a lot of right-wingers who watch you, right?
00:39:09.000So you, that's what I mean when I say you do have a voice and you do have an audience of right-wingers who are going to vote at one point or another.
00:39:16.00030 percent of your audience is right-wing.
00:39:36.000So that's why I say, Tim, for the people who watch you who are Republican leaning, why not frame it that way for them so that they can actually start pushing more money into that?
00:40:48.000I wish somebody else would run, but I can't vote for Joe Biden.
00:40:52.000I think you're surrounded, we talk about this quite a bit, if all sides has nearly 4,000 people rating me and the end result is centrist, if I'm actively pro universal healthcare, not to the same degree as like Bernie Sanders, I believe in private health insurance, and I'm pro-choice, I am absolutely not a conservative in this country.
00:41:13.000I've listened to your debates on pro-choice, though.
00:41:14.000You're pro-choice from a Tim Pool's perspective.
00:41:16.000I'm pro-choice from a traditional liberal perspective, as traditional liberals have been.
00:41:19.000But not from what people who would define themselves as pro-choice would say, right?
00:41:22.000Like, you concentrate very heavily on the ninth month abortions and baby guillotines and stuff like that.
00:41:27.000Yeah, I remember watching you debate on... Baby guillotines?
00:41:30.000Okay, so baby guillotines is my own personal interpretation and joke of it, but you were talking about how women, how disgusted you are that women may have an abortion in the ninth month, right?
00:41:41.000And I wanted to scream at that time, being like, women who have abortions in the ninth month, they're not doing that because they got bored, or all of a sudden they're like, oh, I don't care anymore.
00:41:51.000They do that because it's a fucking tragedy.
00:41:53.000Statistically, women who are getting abortions in the ninth month, it's because there's a medical complication that could kill them.
00:43:06.000I've never performed that operation before.
00:43:07.000So shouldn't the law then be, if the baby must be removed, and it is alive and capable of survival, all actions must be taken to preserve the life of the child and the mother?
00:43:18.000I would say they'd probably choose the mother first, right?
00:43:22.000How often do you think that this happens and all of a sudden they're like, the baby could have lived, you could have done it, why did you choose the other option?
00:43:28.000It's like, this is a tragedy of the highest order because they want to have the kid.
00:43:31.000At nine months pregnant, a woman is on her way to give birth.
00:43:35.000So it's like, it's the worst possible fucking thing that could happen to her.
00:43:37.000I'm sorry, but that's not, again, I said I didn't want to dogpile, but that's statistically not true.
00:43:41.000There have been surveys done on women who had later abortions and For a pretty large sum of them, it's because they were not sure whether the father of the child was willing to commit, and then when they found out he wasn't willing to commit, they would have the abortion.
00:43:55.000And so, there are different stats you're going to find for different points in pregnancy when it comes all the way along to nine months.
00:44:00.000I don't have the statistical data on that.
00:44:03.000However, I do know for later-term abortions, there are reasons other than what is traditionally considered to be a medically necessary reason.
00:44:09.000For example, some people will say that A negative mental health outcome is a reason to abort a child later in pregnancy.
00:44:17.000So if the woman is depressed, they will list that as a reason for why the child had to be terminated to save the life of the mother, which is certainly not the case, very obviously.
00:44:26.000And to the point of what Tim is saying, When we say there's no such thing as a medically necessary abortion, the principle behind that is, if there is an operation which is necessary to save the life of the mother, and then she miscarries the child as a result of that operation which was necessary to save her life, that's not an abortion because nobody's intent was to go in there and end the life of the unborn child.
00:44:49.000And so if a woman's having complications where she has to deliver early, you deliver the child early, of course.
00:44:54.000And if you're at a point in pregnancy where the child isn't viable, that's a horrible tragedy.
00:44:57.000You still do what you can to save the child, but you can't always save the child, and we understand that.
00:45:02.000But to go in and rip the child apart to end their life is never something which is medically required, even though an early delivery may be.
00:45:10.000But are there situations where if the baby is in—this is so harsh— In its complete form, that even trying to induce early pregnancy could kill the mother, so they have to break the baby's body apart so that they can get it out without killing the mother.
00:46:34.000In the case of late-term abortions, More often than not, when statistics say, and when they are polled, they say the reason that they are giving it is because it's a medical complication that could result in a death of the mother or the child.
00:46:45.000So let's, I should, can we make the argument then that the use of guns on people are allowed?
00:46:53.000The use of guns of people to end their lives is allowed.
00:47:00.000So if Colorado, for instance, passes a law saying there is no medical requirement for an abortion, is it is it wrong to take to kill the baby?
00:47:10.000You're talking about... You're trying to compare murdering someone with a gun to a woman having to make a medical decision that could basically preserve her life?
00:47:24.000I would say at nine months, because it only happens, according to the stats, based on complete medical necessity, she has a right to do it.
00:49:31.000What I don't understand is it seems like your position is a rather shock position where you recognize there is something inherently wrong with taking the life of a baby that could survive on its own, but you're also taking the tribal position of women should be allowed to do it anyway.
00:49:46.000If you were to ask me, Tim, hey, Lance, do you think it's a good idea if this woman who's nine months pregnant, suddenly she got bored with the pregnancy, she doesn't want to have it anymore, but the baby's viable?
00:49:54.000Do you think that's a good thing to do?
00:50:27.000The idea that you would say, the woman wants the baby removed, and then in the process, instead of letting the baby live, remove it but kill it.
00:51:11.000I mean, you don't have to think it happens, but statistically it does, because your entire argument is this only happens for reasons of the health of the mother or the health of the unborn child.
00:51:19.000I said the statistics show that at the ninth month if a woman is going to have an abortion, it's typically because it's a medical complication that could either endanger her or the child's life.
00:51:28.000And what I'm saying is there are doctors who will justify that by saying the medical complication is she is depressed.
00:51:33.000That is literally one of the reasons given in surveys.
00:51:36.000And another reason that is given is that I know a man who I was going to be with... Okay, okay, but Seamus, I gotta stop you because...
00:51:42.000This is a nebulous argument that doesn't get anywhere, and I can respect the point that if you try and look this up, you're going to find left-wing sources and right-wing sources that will contradict each other.
00:51:55.000So my question is strictly on the legality of terminating the life of a child.
00:52:00.000I can sit here and pull up, oh, hey, here's one.
00:52:02.000Women abort Down syndrome babies late-term rather frequently.
00:52:16.000Your argument is that women have a right to terminate a baby for any reason at any point.
00:52:19.000Yes, they should have the bodily autonomy to make that decision.
00:52:21.000So what I'm saying is, in the circumstance of Down syndrome, I think it is wrong to terminate a baby's life at nine months simply for having Down syndrome, but you would agree she is legally allowed to do so.
00:52:30.000I think she should be legally allowed to do so.
00:52:32.000Whether or not I think that's a good idea is irrelevant.
00:53:27.000Seamus would argue abortion in any capacity should be banned entirely.
00:53:31.000I'm in the traditional Democrat position, but you see, there is a tribal, amoral, illogical position of just let them kill the baby regardless.
00:53:47.000What I'm against is forced birth, and I don't think the state should be forcing women to give birth against their will, which is what your position and your position is as well.
00:54:02.000I'm against forced birth, just like you.
00:54:04.000Except my difference is that if the baby's at eight months and can survive, they can take the baby out as if they would have an abortion, but not kill it in the process.
00:55:42.000Okay, but so if either way the child is coming out.
00:55:45.000You're making this argument about forced birth.
00:55:47.000Either way, what is in her body is going to be outside of it.
00:55:49.000The question is, is it okay to shove forceps into the skull of the small person who's inside of her and then tear them apart limb by limb to get them out?
00:55:58.000Or should we say, no, that's not an acceptable way of delivering a baby.
00:56:24.000There's no such thing as forced birth.
00:56:26.000They're saying you can't kill that baby.
00:56:28.000Let me tell you how fascinating this is.
00:56:29.000The left is so fervent about legalizing the killing of a baby at nine months that I can sit here and say, I think women should be able to terminate their pregnancy whenever they want, but if the baby is viable, there's no reason to kill it.
00:56:42.000She has to be forced to give birth and then give the baby up, is what you're saying.
00:58:17.000I don't think you have a definition, and I'm trying to understand what you mean by forced birth, but if you can't define the removal of the baby in a different way, I don't know what you're saying.
00:59:31.000As soon as the baby is viable, then it's okay for the woman, even if she doesn't want to have it anymore for whatever reason, she should have to be forced to have it extracted from her and then live.
01:01:30.000So... She has a choice to choose what she wants to have done with her body.
01:01:35.000If she goes to a doctor and the doctor's like, I'm going to perform an abortion, which the assumption would be that I'm about to terminate the child, but then he just secretly sneaks the child out of there, that's not performing an abortion.
01:01:56.000So there's also something that none of us know, because I don't think any of us are medical doctors, the difference on the physiology of the female body giving a nine-month abortion, having that happen, or the actual birthing process, whether by C-section or natural birth, It might have vastly different consequences on the female body, so that's something to take into account.
01:02:22.000Yeah, so there have been a couple of different Born Alive Acts in different years, but what they basically say is that if the abortion fails, it is not legal to kill the child.
01:02:34.000Wasn't that Republicans were trying to pass a law?
01:02:36.000The Republicans were trying to pass that.
01:02:37.000That was one of the only things Obama voted on in the Senate.
01:03:20.000I don't think anything is acceptable, but I think the mother should still have the choice, ultimate authority over what happens to her body.
01:03:26.000But there's a child inside of her body and not her.
01:03:34.000I think if someone is doing meth while they're pregnant, that it is completely acceptable for something like I don't know what the name of the service is in the United States.
01:04:44.000So when you decriminalize a small amount of drugs, that means if you're caught with that drugs by a cop, that means if you're arrested, you cannot be charged for one gram, two grams, whatever that is.
01:06:15.000It is a civil citation to be caught using methamphetamine in Oregon.
01:06:19.000You get a ticket for it, but no crime.
01:06:22.000So I just looked up the Born Alive Act, by the way.
01:06:23.000It says, this bill is deliberately misleading and offensive to pregnant people and doctors and nurses who provide their care.
01:06:28.000It is another attempt by anti-abortion politicians to spread misinformation as a means to get a warped political end, to ban safe and legal abortion.
01:06:35.000It's an entry point to try and make abortion illegal.
01:07:03.000This is an interesting, I think this falls in line with the idea of anarcho-tyranny that we were talking about.
01:07:08.000My view of the modern left is that their positions are nothing but chaos.
01:07:12.000There's no logical pathway towards preserving life, improving people's lives.
01:07:17.000It seems to be only... It's like yin-yang, right?
01:07:21.000There's one side that's talking about long-term planning, logical thinking, and improving the world, and one side that takes the inverse position no matter what.
01:07:29.000For instance, 25 people push in front of a subway, nobody bats an eye.
01:07:32.000One guy, three guys try to subdue a man and now they want prison.
01:07:36.000That's like a weird inversion of what the law is supposed to do.
01:07:38.000The law should stop the people who are pushing people on the trains and protect the people on the train who are being victimized.
01:07:45.000But the left's position is the inverse of it, right?
01:07:49.000Are you asking me for, like, an affirmation of that?
01:07:51.000Because if you ask me... No, no, I'm just saying, like, that's my view.
01:07:54.000So when you say the left's idea are all chaos, I mean, if you really wanted to boil down what the left is fighting for, especially myself, it's expanding freedom.
01:08:24.000But my other thing is I want to expand that freedom into the workplace because we spend about eight hours a day every single day in our works or jobs.
01:08:30.000I want to expand freedom there so people who work at their jobs for eight hours a day have the ability to vote for things in their lives, better health care, better working conditions, whether or not their boss is corrupt and stealing from all of them.
01:09:01.000Bosses simply just garnishing checks or garnishing wages, stealing tips or thinking that tips are justification to pay them lower salaries and stuff like that.
01:10:05.000And then I'll give you air quotes in saying we won.
01:10:09.000What actually happened was after six months of being out of work, They said, you can get retro pay, which will be $7,000 each, or we can go to fight and then I'll give you your job back.
01:10:20.000And I'm like, if they give us our job back, they're going to retaliate against us.
01:11:26.000They're going to be giving out free cases of beer to distributors, and they've vowed to spend millions of dollars in marketing.
01:11:32.000But the boycott is particularly effective, I would say.
01:11:35.000And there's videos now coming out of people at sporting events where the Bud Light is just behind the counter, totally full, and everyone's buying other brands.
01:11:43.000So did Ian and Seamus both just leave at the same time?
01:11:46.000Yeah, I don't know where they went, but they did just both leave.
01:12:20.000Yeah, they think that they can pay off Republicans, they can hire GOP aides, and that is going to be satisfactory for their customers who are upset with them as a brand.
01:12:30.000So clearly what we can see, where I think we agree, is that Anheuser-Busch is a faceless corporation with no real values that is willing to spit in the faces of the little guy if it earns him a profit.
01:12:40.000They're a trash company and nobody should buy their products.
01:13:09.000But if you use them as a primary source, you understand why I'd say that, like... We don't use them as a primary source.
01:13:14.000What happens is when we pull up stories, I'll go to, like, CNN, The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, Fox News, ABC, and they'll each have, like, 300 words.
01:13:27.000And then you go to the Daily Mail after doing a search on key elements of the story and the Daily Mail will have like seven different versions of all breaking down different components.
01:13:36.000Like if you scroll down the Daily Mail, they often do these special sections where they have entirely different stories within the story providing more context.
01:13:44.000Like for instance, this story from the Daily Mail not only talks about the current story with the CEO, but it even goes All the way into all of the context, going back to the commercial that was released, the sale drop at 6% in the first week, to the video, it like covers literally everything, even has a photo of the VP and her husband, how in-depth this story is.
01:14:04.000So it's like if I'm gonna pull up a single article, I can pull up five ABC, CBS, New York Times, or I can just pull up this one that has seemingly everything in it, including Kid Rock, including John Rich, including Bud Light being poured into a dumpster.
01:14:40.000I want to talk to you about the trans issue, though.
01:14:42.000Right, and that's why I ask about the book, because it opens the door.
01:14:44.000We can get to the books and the schools and the curriculums and everything that Florida's taken away, but you profess to be kind of like fact-based, science-based, right?
01:15:25.000I call it... But then you made... And I've explicitly said, I don't take the right agitator approach of calling it mutilation because that's not effective in having a conversation.
01:15:34.000I will plainly call it a child sex change as what it is.
01:15:37.000I'm not going to call it gender affirming or mutilation because I don't think those things accurately explain what it is.
01:15:42.000Okay, so when it comes to gender affirming care, Zero to about- Are you talking about child sex change?
01:15:47.000No, I'm talking about gender-affirming care.
01:15:49.000Zero to about 10 years- You gotta define it.
01:15:52.000Because if you're talking about something different, tell us what you're talking about.
01:15:55.000All right, so, if someone is trans, and they are young, and until they are about 10 years old, before they go through puberty, gender-affirming care would be in the form of you using different pronouns, preferred pronouns, and allowing them to dress differently.
01:16:34.000What we found was 47,000 Cross-sex hormones, I think it was something like 17,000 puberty blockers and like 2,000 double mastectomies for girls after the age of 13 or whatever, but... So that doesn't apply to anything I just said?
01:16:52.000Puberty blockers... Yes, puberty blockers are given to someone... Because they have to give them the puberty blockers before puberty starts.
01:16:59.000Okay, so you're just reaffirming what I just said.
01:17:01.000From zero to ten, you're about to go through puberty.
01:17:03.000Gender affirming care only comes in the form of using different pronouns, using different names, allowing them to dress differently, and that's it.
01:17:09.000And you don't have a problem with that.
01:18:00.000You both have a big problem with lupron?
01:18:02.000I don't know a lot about it, but I consider it a medical treatment.
01:18:06.000Yeah, yeah, we shouldn't be giving lupron to kids.
01:18:08.000So you don't think you should give Lupron to kids?
01:18:10.000Why don't you want Lupron being given to trans kids?
01:18:14.000Because it's a puberty blocker that inhibits the natural function and development of their body.
01:18:19.000And more importantly, I think my view is built upon what we've seen out of Europe already, right?
01:18:25.000So earlier on, maybe a few years ago, I was more agnostic on the issue until Sweden, Denmark, Finland abandoned this and the Tavistock Center got shut down.
01:18:33.000And the data they released said this actually caused more harm than good.
01:18:36.000And then I was like, well, okay, hey, how about that?
01:18:39.000And for some reason in the United States, they're still hell-bent on moving forward with what we can already see from, you know, better countries with better healthcare systems saying no to this, right?
01:18:46.000Okay, so I can address those individually because I have the explanation as to why that happened.
01:18:51.000When it comes to Lupron, 0 to 10 is about the age where gender-affirming care only comes in the form of different names, pronouns, stuff like that.
01:18:58.000We can all agree that's completely fine.
01:20:14.000No, scroll down to the conclusion of the study.
01:20:16.000Well, yeah, I mean, I want to at least skim some of what the numbers and references are.
01:20:22.000While you're skimming, when I think of a little kid being like, a little boy being like, I'm a girl!
01:20:27.000The parent, I would hope that the parent would be like, you can pretend to be whatever you want, you can be an actor, you can play a girl, but I get afraid when a mom's like, he said he's a girl!
01:20:41.000It doesn't exist in which someone can say, hey, I'm a boy, I'm a girl, and then they go into a doctor's office and like, well, take some Lupron.
01:20:47.000It's, you do years and years of consultation between a doctor and between like a therapist and between the patient itself.
01:20:56.000Adolescence is a crucial time for identity and psychosexual development in young people with gender identity concerns.
01:21:01.000The outcomes of GDC have been discussed in terms of its persistence and desistance.
01:21:06.000For most children with GDC, whether GD will persist or desist will probably be determined between the ages of 10 and 13 years, although some may need more time.
01:21:14.000Evidence from the 10 available prospective follow-up studies from childhood to adolescence, reviewed in the study by Ristori and Steensma, indicate that for around 80- Oh, it is Steensma.
01:22:00.000Okay, so, go to... Because I don't know who Steensma is.
01:22:03.000Okay, so, well, Steensma, and the problem, I'll say one more thing because I had this written down, 45.3% of the people did not reapply for treatment, they counted that as people who were detransitioning, when they weren't in fact doing that.
01:22:13.000We're literally talking about desistance.
01:22:42.000That is someone who has decided they just don't want to go talk to that doctor or experience things with that doctor.
01:22:45.000They could have gone off to a different doctor, they could have done something else, but that is not someone who has verifiably said, I was trans, I'm no longer trans.
01:22:52.000That's just people who did not show up.
01:24:08.000The other three of those 55, they didn't show a net negative effect.
01:24:12.000There was not a single study of the 55 that Cornell University looked at that showed detransitioning or gender-affirming care being a bad thing for trans people.
01:24:26.000I'm trying to pull up a scientific study to confirm what you're saying.
01:24:29.000Yeah, I also just want to ask a question about this too.
01:24:31.000So you're mentioning that this is a meta-analysis of studies on people who have detransitioned, but by definition, right, this is taking into account people who went through, what, puberty blockers, hormone replacement therapy, physical surgeries.
01:24:43.000Sure, for each study it was different things.
01:24:44.000In some of the studies it was people who were going through puberty blockers, some had hormone therapy, but a lot of them in one form or another had received gender-affirming care.
01:24:50.000They were trans when the study first tried to identify these people, and then it looked at them years later.
01:24:58.000Because almost every single issue, or almost every single study I've seen from trans advocates on this issue use a convenience sample, rather than doing some kind of controlled, randomized Right, so this is a meta-study of a whole bunch of other studies.
01:25:11.000So you would have to go between each study, because at the end of the day, I don't want to fall in this trap that me and Tim were about to do, where each of us starts saying like, well I have a study, well you have a study, well I have a study.
01:25:18.000We could do this all day, so we should look at metadata, right?
01:25:21.000We should look at compromising data that looks over a whole bunch of studies.
01:25:24.000A second meta-study that I want you to look at, regret after gender-affirming surgery, a systematic review and meta-analysis of prevalence, This went to Canada, the Netherlands, Belgium, UK, Italy, USA, Brazil, Sweden, Singapore, Germany, Norway, Ireland, Serbia, and it interviewed, between 27 studies, 7,928 trans patients.
01:27:12.000Okay, so if you want to reject that, I would write... Bro, next thing you're gonna do, you're gonna tell me ivermectin is some cure because of a meta-analysis?
01:27:58.000The mental health outcomes in transgender non-binary youth receiving gender-affirming care from February 25th, 2022.
01:28:04.000Let me type it and pull it up for you.
01:28:07.000Yeah, but I can explain to them while you're doing your own research.
01:28:09.000Kids who receive puberty blockers and hold up.
01:28:12.000Mental health outcomes in transgender and non-binary youth receiving gender-affirming care, February 25th, 2022, peer-reviewed study.
01:28:20.000The findings, kids who received puberty blockers and hormone therapy had 60% lower odds of moderate or severe depression and 73% lower odds of suicidality.
01:28:28.000Here's another individual study for you.
01:29:07.000So what your argument is, is that you've got 72 studies that have drawn a conclusion, and then someone looked at them and made a difference.
01:29:14.000You're saying that out of 72 studies that found a conclusion, It's at 72, 55 talked about de-transitioning.
01:30:42.000No, no, I'm pulling up Reddit because Cecilia, I believe her last name is pronounced Jen, explains and downplays why you're wrong about that 80-85% because she's the one who actually did that study.
01:30:53.000She's the one who did the study you cited.
01:30:55.000So she explains why it's being misused.
01:31:00.000There are arguments about what is true all day every day.
01:31:03.000There's arguments that M-theory is wrong and that science is unwilling to give up because too many scientists have dedicated their lives to it.
01:31:13.000So they argue that M-theory is the theory, while others are coming up with like E8 Lie Group Theory or whatever.
01:31:20.000I totally understand that people will decide what they think is true or not.
01:31:28.000If the right comes at me and says, Ivermectin meta-analyses prove it works, I say, don't know, don't care.
01:31:34.000We have rejected the concept of someone analyzing a collection of studies and making determination.
01:31:39.000What our standard is, or at the very least where I'm at is, if we're going to have any basic agreement on what is or isn't, there has to be a unified standard there, which is a peer-reviewed study, which is not absolute.
01:31:50.000If I have two peer-reviewed studies and the establishment narrative, when I search for it, says 61 to 98 percent, I will not accept your meta-analysis opinion the same as I wouldn't for someone who believes ivermectin works, because your argument is founded upon the same basis as theirs.
01:32:07.000Okay, so first off, the meta-analysis of ivermectin actually showed that it wasn't effective at preventing or treating COVID-19.
01:32:13.000That was the actual meta-analysis of ivermectin, so it actually would back up your own claims.
01:32:17.000Secondly, You and me can look at individual studies, and it can take a very long time, but we should look at regret after gender-affirming surgery, a systematic review, and meta-analysis of prevalence, which looks at, again, 27 studies, and interviews 7,928 trans people across the world.
01:32:31.000And again, in places like Italy, USA, Brazil, you name it, that meta-analysis also found a less than 1% regret rate.
01:32:37.000You have to be able to combine multiple studies, because this is something that has been so thoroughly investigated globally for so long, that to ignore the science and data on this, There's not been a single large-scale randomized clinical trial for puberty blockers to treat gender dysphoria.
01:33:10.000That's why I'm saying vary against something.
01:33:11.000What we're talking about is, are we dealing with an actual case of, say, endocrine disruption caused by phthalates and PCBs, or are we dealing with a kid who's just playing with dolls, and the parents are incorrect, right?
01:33:26.000And in that case, you would have a long process where they would have to do interviews with, again, professionals.
01:34:20.000Of course, no one wants that to happen, but then if we want to understand how this is actually taking place around the world from an actual perspective of science, we have to look at the data.
01:34:28.000We have to look at and analyze global understanding of this.
01:34:32.000When it comes to Lupron, by example, yes, it's true that Lupron is not FDA approved for the use on cisgender children.
01:34:39.000There is a product that is FDA approved for use with children that is a puberty blocker, and it has been used for a long time, for generations and decades.
01:34:49.000No, but that's for an entirely different reason.
01:34:51.000That's for an entirely different reason.
01:34:53.000So to say we want to prevent a child from undergoing early onset puberty so that they can develop at a normal, healthy rate is entirely different from saying we're going to administer puberty blockers because this child feels they're a member of the opposite sex.
01:35:10.000But whether or not it's use is dangerous is going to be the problem, right?
01:35:13.000You want to know whether or not it's use is going to be dangerous on children.
01:35:16.000And the reason for administering a certain treatment can render it dangerous.
01:35:22.000So, for example, if we have been amputating people's limbs for hundreds of years, if I go into a doctor and say, please cut my arm off, because I don't want it anymore, and he cuts my arm off, that's medical malpractice.
01:35:32.000For you to jump in and go, we've been cutting people's arms off for hundreds of years, this is medically approved, people are allowed to do this.
01:35:47.000Yes, it's extremely rare but we know enough about it at this point to know that people will seek out to get operations on the black market if they have BIID.
01:35:55.000And what we found when people do that and go to the black market to have a limb removed is that it only provides a temporary amount of relief for their condition and then it returns and they have further complications from the fact that they now have a disability and or medical complications that come from all that.
01:36:08.000My point is not about any kind of body dysmorphia, about losing a limb.
01:36:13.000My point is about drawing a false conclusion by a medical treatment being allowed under Circumstance A, but not being allowed under Circumstance B. You're saying we allow it for kids who have hit precocious puberty, but then we don't allow it for kids who don't want to go through puberty because they want to be a member of the opposite sex.
01:36:37.000Drug use to halt puberty may cause lasting health problems.
01:36:40.000More than 10,000 adverse event reports were filed with the FDA, reflecting the experience of women who've taken Lupron, describing everything from brittle bones to faulty joints.
01:36:50.000You know, regarding meta-analyses... I'm worried about, you know, giving kids things on an experimental basis.
01:36:57.000Yeah, this is a huge, long conversation, and it would be so awesome to go through each study.
01:37:27.000I said I'm concerned that Jazz is not trans, right?
01:37:30.000And the reason is Jazz is dating women now, right?
01:37:32.000So then Jazz... What does that have to do with being trans?
01:37:34.000Well, Jazz would then be a biological male dating women at the age of 23.
01:37:37.000What does that have to do with being trans?
01:37:39.000So it has to do with whether or not Jazz made the decision for themself, or the parent made it when they were three years old.
01:37:45.000So the question is, we want to avoid a John Money type situation, right?
01:37:49.000Where you had these two kids, and the doctor told one of the young boys he was actually a girl, and then forced him to live as a girl, ultimately resulting in his suicide, and then the death of the brother as well.
01:38:01.000And so that did happen already, and we know that happened, so we have to be careful about taking a three-year-old and then raising them and telling them they're female, because then if they start exhibiting traditional, you know, gender behaviors, there may be some concern.
01:38:17.000And that was the big controversy over the past few weeks, the mother going on TV saying she would force Jazz to do it.
01:38:22.000If Jazz is saying, I'm not gonna, and the mother's saying, do it or I'll wring your neck, which is a quote, and then Jazz is not dating women, we're starting to see a pattern that may be concerning because it follows the John Money situation.
01:38:33.000Whether or not Jazz is trans or not, my concern is, uh-oh, what if?
01:38:36.000And that means there may be children who are going to be pushed down a path that ultimately leads to their suicide because their parents can't make the decision for them, but they did.
01:38:43.000So the data overwhelmingly shows that if you give children gender-affirming care, especially if you have loving and accepting parents who accept children's actual gender identity, it reduces the rates of suicide dramatically.
01:38:53.000In the case of a parent who affirms their child's gender, it can reduce suicide rates of up to 93% in some studies.
01:39:01.000More often than not, these are children who are approaching their parents saying they think this is something happening to them and parents pushing back and being like, no, this is wrong.
01:40:37.000But in terms of the increase, Tim, of people... Because there was a study done by Stanford Medical School that very closely fits the description of what you've just read out there, which is very ascientific.
01:40:51.000Yeah, so just please find the source of that.
01:40:54.000Because I want to pull that apart, but I want to be sure that I know you're talking about that study.
01:40:59.000I'm curious as to why you think it's increasing so much.
01:42:35.000So then why are they coming out if they don't feel safe?
01:42:37.000They have more access because that generation, Generation Z, has a lot more acceptance towards trans people than older people who pass laws, draconian people who pass laws.
01:42:45.000The boomers are the ones running the show right now.
01:47:25.000That's still not the majority, even if that statistic was true.
01:47:28.000Yeah, no, the majority is... So 24% of trans people are autistic, according to that data, and 6% of... So what I think is, I think that there are people who hate people with Down syndrome, and in Iceland, they've actually publicly avowed or praised their eradication of people with Down syndrome.
01:48:50.000And you can be trans and not get any operations at all.
01:48:52.000So, I think you are... So, like, I'm in favor of making sure these people can always have families and have kids, right?
01:48:59.000Your position, whether you support the moral issue of it or not, results in many of them being stale.
01:49:04.000For instance, the reason I use Jazz Jennings as an example, because this is a person on television with millions of followers, who wrote a book and told kids about this journey.
01:49:13.000The journey that Jazz Jennings went on resulted in a complete inability to have a family and have children.
01:49:18.000I think that's terrifying because Jazz was not old enough to understand the implications of that.
01:49:51.000Because it's been removed before Jazz could have the ability to make the conclusion.
01:49:55.000But again, that has nothing to do with us.
01:49:56.000She could decide to never want to have kids, and that's fine and valid.
01:49:59.000Right, so my morals would be that a society protects the children because there are certain things you can't know until you're at least 24 or older when your brain is fully developed, which is why we don't allow people to drink and do certain drugs, whatever drugs are legal, until they're 21.
01:50:13.000So, for me, I'm like, if you can't drink till you're 21, if you can't smoke till you're 18, this society absolutely recognizes, you can't drive till a certain age, that the reason that the driving age is what it is, one of the arguments made, I think it was in Illinois, is that risk-taking is a lot higher in youth than it is in older people.
01:50:31.000So the argument is, once you're past 16, you go through driver's ed, that helps control for the higher risk-taking of younger people.
01:50:42.000For someone who's 10 years old to be put on Lupron and then cross-sex hormones, they will never develop the ability to reproduce.
01:50:48.000So in the instance of Jazz, again, a famous individual who's very influential with millions of followers, there was never the ability to reproduce developed, which caused complications.
01:50:57.000Complications aside, that's Jazz's personal business.
01:51:00.000But the puberty blockers and cross-sex hormones did sterilize Jazz.
01:51:16.000I can kind of see your argument because if a kid was straight, a straight kid, just a kid, and they were like, a 12 year old girl, and she was like, I don't want to have babies when I'm older.
01:51:24.000And the mom was like, okay, then we'll sterilize you right now.
01:51:26.000And they went and had the kid had a hysterectomy.
01:51:30.000I don't know, but I would imagine society needs to protect little, little kids from crazy parents that are like, just because a 12 year old says they don't have babies later in life.
01:51:38.000So the fact that it is sterilizing as a byproduct, I think should be, should be taken into account with the whole procedure.
01:51:46.000I think that's still something that comes down to the individual and what they choose to do.
01:51:49.000And if someone is like, I want to have gender affirming care, knowing the risks, then why is that my business?
01:51:54.000It's the same thing with someone who wants to have a surgery that can have other complications.
01:51:59.000If someone had an appendix aflamed and they had to have their appendix out, there are potential complications that come from that, but I'm not going to prevent them from having healthcare and saying that you can't have a right to get your appendix out because every major medical association in the United States agrees that that is the best way to treat appendicitis.
01:52:14.000And in this case, when we're talking about trans people, every single medical association in the United States agrees on gender-affirming care.
01:52:25.000They should produce one single, randomized, controlled trial for puberty blockers and cross-sex hormones to show that it's safe and effective.
01:53:06.000This is from University of Utah, because I was reading about this recently.
01:53:09.000It goes on to mention that hormone replacement therapy can make you sterile.
01:53:14.000And that it's important to preserve your sperm, it says, if you're trans feminine.
01:53:21.000Otherwise, the hormone therapy may make it impossible for you to have biological children.
01:53:26.000If someone is put on puberty blockers and then cross-sex hormones as a child, they will never have the ability to preserve their reproductive functions.
01:53:32.000So if you're put on puberty blockers, they are reversible.
01:53:35.000You can stop being on puberty blockers and you can still maintain a lot of things that you were worried about being taken away.
01:53:40.000When it comes to Jazz Jennings specifically, she's actually made statements about this because, you know, I was just looking this up.
01:53:47.000Jazz Jennings says, I don't regret my transition at all.
01:53:50.000When I was 11, I started male puberty and I was put on hormone blockers.
01:53:53.000Those blockers saved my life and continue to save the lives of so many youth out there.
01:53:56.000If I was forced to go through male puberty, it would have been devastating.
01:53:59.000Even more so, taking estrogen through hormone replacement allowed my body to develop how I wanted.
01:54:04.000I blossomed into a young woman, eventually got bottom surgery, and now living as a proud woman today.
01:54:22.000There's a lot of questions around the morality of this.
01:54:24.000The left likes to defer instantly to purity arguments, which I find fascinating considering the left typically has a low purity rating when it comes to moral foundations.
01:54:35.000For example, when you said it's really weird talking about someone's genitals, it's a purity argument which the left typically never makes.
01:54:40.000That's why I said it's a very weird thing for you to do.
01:54:42.000Approaching this from an academic perspective, we would make a few arguments about whether or not a person can truly understand they've lost the ability to reproduce if they've never had it in the first place, the psychological and the philosophical implications of stripping away a person's ability to reproduce before they were old enough to even know what that was.
01:55:00.000So, for example, If you take an adult human, female or male, and remove their genitals by force, they will be very, very upset.
01:55:13.000If you took away their ability to feel sexual satisfaction, it's a form of torture.
01:55:16.000In fact, female circumcision is horrifying to the world, and it actually was huge controversies up in Dearborn, Michigan, because what it would do is it would result in women who were as adults could not feel anything, and they were effectively used as like objects for their husbands.
01:55:32.000So in making an academic argument, we would say...
01:55:35.000Jazz Jennings does not understand, and that's fine if Jazz is happy, that's great.
01:55:39.000The argument into the greater is, Jazz will never have kids, fact statement.
01:55:44.000I think it's wrong to take away that from someone who doesn't understand what it is.
01:55:48.000They will decide that when they're an adult and have assessed the circumstances.
01:55:51.000But Jazz can't actually feel any of this.
01:55:53.000Jazz can't feel, this was a study, there was a doctor who came out, did a Zoom video on it, specifically I think referring to Jazz, that Jazz will never experience Any adult satisfaction or desire.
01:56:07.000And so the question then becomes, why did Jazz get bottom surgery?
01:56:10.000My question is, why do you think Jazz got bottom surgery?
01:56:23.000When I was 11, I started male puberty and I was put on hormone blockers.
01:56:25.000Those blockers saved my life and continue to save the lives of so many youth out there.
01:56:28.000If I was forced to go through male puberty, it would have been devastating.
01:56:30.000Even more, taking estrogen through hormone replacement allowed my body to develop how I wanted.
01:56:33.000I blossomed into a young woman, eventually got bottom surgery, and I'm living as a proud woman today.
01:56:37.000Yes, I do struggle with mental health and always have, but it's not because I transitioned, and it's unfortunately something many LGBTQ plus people face.
01:56:44.000Because that has a lot to do with hate and a lack of acceptance that we receive in society, like I was saying before.
01:56:48.000So to all of you speaking about our mental health, for views, and calling our families abusers, for supporting our transition, you are the only abusers.
01:56:54.000So what was the purpose of the bottom surgery?
01:57:00.000What does that mean, affirmed her gender?
01:57:01.000So you have, and all of us have, a gender identity that we want to express in one way or another, and with hers, she affirmed her gender through the process of getting bottom surgery to look more and feel more like a woman.
01:57:11.000Why do you think Jazz stopped dilating?
01:57:26.000Again, that's why it's weird to me to try and impose this upon someone else.
01:57:29.000To try and say, you're disgusted at the fact that she can't have kids or something like that.
01:57:33.000It's like, I don't know if she ever wants kids because I don't know who she is, but that's a decision for her to make between her and her doctor.
01:58:36.000So the purpose of it is just feeling, just emotion?
01:58:39.000No, the purpose of it is it is part of affirming who they are through a surgery that makes them look and feel more like a version of a woman that they want to be.
01:58:47.000That's not the only version a woman can be.
01:58:48.000There's other versions of how a woman can be and look, but that's the version that she wanted.
01:58:52.000So what I'm trying to understand is why create a permanent wound For the purpose of a man to have sex with, in order to affirm the identity of someone who can't feel any of that.
01:59:08.000Well, first off, I have no idea about the actual sensations that people experience after these kind of surgeries, but that's not my business.
01:59:14.000And the second thing would be, I don't believe it's a wound.
01:59:17.000I believe it's an operation to have a general change.
01:59:36.000I'm not trying to be insulting to anybody.
01:59:38.000The right calls it mutilation and abomination.
01:59:40.000The reason they have to use dilators for the rest of their lives is because it is factually a wound.
01:59:44.000But you're asking me a question that I can't answer because I'm not this individual.
01:59:47.000I don't know why someone would want to get that surgery because I don't, I'm cis and I don't experience these kind of things.
01:59:52.000But if someone wants to, but Tim, if someone wants to and it makes them feel better and improves their quality of life, then why do we have to get in the way of that?
02:00:18.000The study you have here, the largest one, so first of all, as I mentioned, there have been no controlled randomized trial, but the largest study you cited there, the largest study that you cited there does not say what you think it says.
02:00:29.000The Stanford University one, it was 27,000 people who were surveyed in 2015, and then there were two analyses done of these studies by Jack Turban.
02:00:38.000And he lumped data together and did a few manipulative things to, like, Get the results he wanted, but there's two very important things to mention, which is firstly, this study was based on convenience sampling, so they were speaking with people who were sent to them by LGBTQ advocacy groups and groups that they reached out to, so you're already not getting an unbiased population sample there.
02:01:00.000And then, they were determining whether that person received puberty blockers and other such treatments or hadn't, but they didn't go over the reasons.
02:01:09.000In fact, the people who hadn't received puberty blockers or those kinds of treatments didn't receive them because they weren't allowed to.
02:01:14.000And one of the requirements for being able to receive that kind of treatment is some level of psychological stability, which means the people who weren't on puberty blockers in that study were more likely to be psychologically unstable, which we would expect to produce a higher suicide rate, but that wasn't controlled for.
02:01:30.000On top of that, the data actually shows that the men who are on estrogen were more likely to become suicidal.
02:01:36.000But what he ended up doing, that's true, what he ended up doing was lumping them together.
02:01:40.000So he said, people on cross-sex hormones are less likely to commit suicide, because according to the sample he had of women, that was true enough to overcompensate for the increased likelihood of suicidality in the men, and he just threw them all together as if a man taking estrogen is the same thing as a woman taking testosterone, and we could expect the same medical outcomes.
02:02:12.000This one shows kids who received puberty blockers and hormone therapy had 60% lower odds of moderate or severe depression, 73% lower odds of suicidality.
02:02:20.000Gender identity five years after social transition.
02:02:22.000This one is in the American Academy of Pediatrics, peer-reviewed.
02:02:25.000Between 317 youth They found 94% of binary transgender stayed the same, only 2.5% reverted to reverting as cisgender, 3.5% as non-binary trans.
02:02:37.000A UK 2019 study of 3,398 people who had gender-affirming care found that only 0.47% regretted it.
02:02:45.000Another one, the impacts of strong parental support for trans youth found that parents who support trans youth, this was 433 participants, double-blind study, 93% reduction in reported suicides.
02:02:56.000Hold on, and I think we can all have the good faith that you did as much work fact-checking those studies as you did the one I just tore apart, but I didn't have time to go into every single bit of statistical information you would bring here.
02:03:06.000This is the problem with, like you mentioned, going to studies back and forth or whatever, so that's why I'm fine with...
02:03:13.000I'm not here to change your morals, right?
02:03:22.000If you look at the history of it, especially when it came to puberty blockers and how that was handled, it was in large part a political decision that both medical groups, advocates, as well as pro-LGBTQ organizations, Outwardly protested.
02:03:37.000And especially, like, I know you're going to bring up Finland, I believe was one of the countries that did it, Sweden as well.
02:03:43.000And in a number of cases, this is something in which experts, experts in the fields of endocrinology, pediatrics, they were very opposed to it.
02:03:51.000It was politicians who were pushing for this.
02:03:54.000This is why I don't like when politics get directly involved in medical decisions, because, I mean, like you were saying, if you want to look up the actual organizations that support this, It's every major medical association in the United States, everyone, without fail.
02:04:10.000A lot of times if you don't get politically involved in the medical industry, they'll experiment on humans for money.
02:04:16.000Some of them are, some of them are not.
02:04:18.000If I listed them to you right now, because I have the list, some of these are not for-profit institutions just looking to make a fucking buck.
02:04:24.000Some of these are just genuinely concerned about child health care.
02:04:28.000And some of them have various, I mean, ideological biases.
02:04:31.000This isn't always about money all the time, but if you're going to reject what Tim is saying about medical institutions no longer performing these operations in Nordic Europe because you're claiming those institutions have become political, I don't know how you could give any credibility to the American ones.
02:04:44.000So it's not the medical... Do you think the American model of practicing medicine is better than the model in northern Europe?
02:05:02.000But then why is it the case that the... So the nation that started doing this Earlier than any of the others was the Netherlands.
02:05:09.000They started around 1990 administering puberty blockers and cross-sex hormones for children who purported to be struggling with feelings of dysphoria.
02:05:18.000And so they have some of the longest term data available on this and what they found is that transitioning has no effect on suicidality.
02:05:25.000That's part of the studies that I'm interested in is the suicide stuff.
02:05:28.000Like, in 2022, they measured a bunch of people that transitioned, they were suicidal, they transitioned, now they're not, but it's like, hey, that was eight months ago.
02:05:35.000Like, how are you going to feel in four years from now?
02:05:37.000So it's hard to say, like, now they're no longer suicidal, just because they're like, yeah, I'm not suicidal now, but, like, we need long-term studies.
02:05:43.000We do need to go to Super Chats, because we're way past.
02:05:45.000But I do want to ask another question, like, do you think the Earth is overpopulated?
02:07:42.000Liberals have been effectively shrinking.
02:07:45.000Gen Z is the first generation in 100 years to slightly move towards conservative in some areas.
02:07:50.000Likely not because Gen Z is becoming conservative, but because there's less liberal Gen Zers than there are conservative ones.
02:07:57.000So the end result of all of this is just like, look man, I'm not going to convince you to vote the way I would vote, I'm not going to convince Seamus to vote that way I would vote, but it doesn't matter anyway because in a hundred years, you guys are sterilizing and aborting your kids.
02:08:35.000I'm just saying the left will cease to exist and the middle and the right will supplant it.
02:08:41.000And then the middle will become the left and the right will, will stay the right.
02:08:44.000Here's what I'll say is that LGBTQ plus people were heavily persecuted by a lot of different groups, including the Nazis at one point or another in history.
02:08:51.000And you just can't get rid of the communists.
02:08:53.000If you, and the communists, and if you were to get rid of every single queer, if you got rid of every single gay, every single lesbian, every single bisexual, every single trans person, if you got rid of all of them in a generation or two, they would reappear because they're a part of us.
02:09:09.000They are part of the human experience.
02:09:12.000Yeah, but I think that chart you show with the left-handed thing, if Christians and Muslims start dominating, they're going to be repressed.
02:10:09.000But the end result is there is one faction that is pro-abortion, unrestricted, and in favor of practices which result in a substantial rate of sterilization for children.
02:10:17.000Conservatives, be it Muslim or Christian or Jewish, don't do these things.
02:10:22.000And so the future is very obviously going to be an Abrahamic conservative country.
02:10:25.000Yeah, but we need a more scientific religion in the future.
02:10:28.000This is another two-hour conversation, maybe.
02:10:31.000Let's read some superchats and then we'll try to get the members-only Q&A straight to the Q&A.
02:10:36.000And I'll try and find some good superchat questions just to make sure.
02:10:43.000Carly says, as a woman who's had an abortion and given birth later in life, this man needs to do some research, but he sure has some balls for having this conversation on TimCast.
02:10:58.000Yeah, everywhere social media is sold at TheSurf'sTV, if you want to hear my musings.
02:11:03.000And I will add that while I do distinctly disagree with most of the takes of the people on this panel, they've been very friendly and very nice to me, and they put me in a nice hotel, and Ian is just as friendly in real life as everyone led him to believe.
02:11:19.000Let me, let me, here's one from MarbieDoggy says, please ask your guest if he feels the same about bodily autonomy, bodily autonomy with regards to the vaccines.
02:11:28.000Yeah, I think you should have the right whether or not you want to take the vaccine.
02:11:31.000So you would disagree with the vaccine mandate?
02:11:35.000I mean, for the purposes of freedom, yes, but it sucks.
02:11:39.000That's one of those, like, it sucks, but of course, I don't think people should be forced to have to take a jab against their will.
02:11:43.000Like if the government said in order to go to school... A government mandated... Well, no, like a government mandated vaccine program I disagree with in that, like, every single human being is, like, strapped down and like, oh, I don't want to take it, but you have to kind of thing.
02:11:54.000But you would be okay with, like, every facet of society saying we require vaccines?
02:11:57.000Oh, when there was a vaccination, like, um... What was the word for it?
02:12:02.000Like a segregation of people who were vaccinated and unvaccinated?
02:12:05.000Well, like, you oppose the government holding you down and vaccinating you.
02:12:08.000Yes, I think you should have a choice whether or not you should do that, but other people should have a choice whether or not they get sick from you because you didn't vaccinate yourself.
02:12:13.000Do you think the government should be allowed to mandate vaccines for public accommodation?
02:12:19.000Like, we already do that for hospitals.
02:12:21.000You have to be vaccinated if you're a nurse or a doctor against a host of different things for obvious medical reasons, and I think that serves an important purpose.
02:12:30.000The military is mandatory vaccination for the same reasons.
02:12:33.000So your line is bodily autonomy, but not participation in society.
02:12:37.000Well, you can choose whether or not to be a doctor.
02:12:38.000You can choose whether or not to be in the military.
02:12:39.000Well, I mean like going to a cafe or a movie or something, right?
02:12:42.000Well, yeah, but I'm saying that there are certain things where it makes sense from a scientific standpoint, where like if you're a doctor or nurse, yeah, that probably is something that you should be vaccinated for.
02:12:49.000It depends if that is directly going to have an impact on the broader society if people get sick.
02:13:12.000Madison Square Garden, for instance, had a vaccine requirement, and I think Joe Rogan had to refund tickets because he sent the show before the requirement, and it was the government that imposed the requirement on all the businesses.
02:13:23.000So the vaccine mandate, there's two ways to look at it.
02:13:26.000I think what they're asking is Ostracizing or excising someone from society is a vaccine mandate, right?
02:14:06.000And I'm like, you know, let's do some long term studies.
02:14:08.000Vaccines can be very dangerous if they're not studied properly.
02:14:12.000So maybe that's another conversation to have.
02:14:15.000I think it's very important not to let the medical industry govern us.
02:14:18.000Well, that's why we have a government.
02:14:19.000Also, this isn't all axiomatic, right?
02:14:22.000So you could have the position that under no circumstances would you ever support the government mandating vaccines.
02:14:27.000You could be of the position that you would be in favor of it, but just not for a disease with the infection and mortality rate that COVID has.
02:14:35.000There's a lot of different approaches.
02:14:38.000So, uh, Edmar says this guest looks like the kid of Brendan Fraser and Justin Long.
02:16:12.000It's a push and pull with hormones and other stuff like that.
02:16:15.000But there are people who have XY chromosomes.
02:16:17.000So if you looked at their bones years into the future and you analyze them, they would be genetically male, but they have a specific condition that suppresses testosterone, which makes them develop 100% like women.
02:16:29.000And based on hormones, the expression of gender and different factors, we turn in one direction or the other towards more male or more female.
02:16:41.000But we can hijack this entire process.
02:16:43.000If we take hormones, so if we take testosterone or estrogen, we suddenly can have traits that are more feminine or masculine, the redistribution of fat, the growth of breasts, the length of hair, all that kind of stuff.
02:16:54.000The socialist wants to redistribute the fat.
02:16:59.000I think it was in 1993, they passed a law in the United States that required clinical testing to be done on men and women separately because women are affected by drugs differently.
02:17:07.000And they found that painkillers, for instance, didn't work on women, and so these male doctors were all like, these women are sissies, they can't take the pain, when in reality it's like the painkillers weren't working.
02:17:16.000And they also, in these studies, found that Yeah, no.
02:17:21.000The differences between males and females, you can't change through hormones.
02:17:24.000For instance, fast twitch muscle fiber, collagen in the skin, prenatal testosterone, the impact, that won't change from later in life taking hormones.
02:17:32.000So a male's not a female, female's not a male.
02:18:04.000That means that 97% of females will have statistically average female traits.
02:18:10.000The reason I wanted to jump on that, though, is because you're saying that just because you have XY chromosomes, that means by definition you're male.
02:18:28.000She has breasts, she has a vagina, all that stuff.
02:18:31.000But she is intersex and her chromosomes are XY.
02:18:35.000So if you looked at her genetics, she's genetically male.
02:18:39.000But accepting that we want rights for all people, including intersex people, doesn't change the fact that they make up a relatively small portion of society.
02:19:49.000I think the point about intersex or some people having chromosomes that don't exactly match up with their sex is not a problem for what is termed the gender binary by the left.
02:20:03.000So I think the best way to define sex is based on, A, gametes.
02:20:08.000You know, the role a person plays in reproduction.
02:20:10.000And Tim mentioned gametes and not chromosomes.
02:20:13.000So I would define a female as someone whose reproductive anatomy is ordered towards gestation, and then a male is someone whose reproductive anatomy is ordered towards insemination.
02:20:23.000In the operating phrase there is ordered towards, right?
02:20:26.000Because someone can have an issue with their reproductive anatomy, but it's still ordered towards something.
02:20:30.000And recognizing the bimodal nature of human sex.
02:20:33.000Meaning that overwhelmingly there's two big trees with a slight overlap in the middle.
02:20:36.000Well, even that overlap in the middle, the vast majority of people who are intersex are basically, clearly a member of one sex, but with some feature that appears differently.
02:20:51.000People who you genuinely can't tell are extremely, extremely rare.
02:20:55.000I don't like the argument that we should reform society around...
02:20:59.000You know, very, very small minorities, other than just protect the rights of.
02:21:04.000So if we're talking about, you know, the issue of biological males going into women's bathrooms or something like that, you have an issue of the civil rights of females versus the civil rights of trans women, and that's where the conflict comes into play.
02:21:15.000Yeah, but the conflict there is pretty easy.
02:21:16.000The majority of people who abuse women in bathrooms is cis men.
02:21:40.000You know, life is weird and uncomfortable sometimes.
02:21:43.000But the bigger question is, in general, when it comes to the transgender men in sports and women in sports and things like that, is the rights of females versus the rights of trans people and who gets supplanted.
02:21:56.000Right, and so my answer to the bathroom problem would be the majority of women who are abused in bathrooms are abused by cis men, and so that we should be, if we want to protect women and go after abusers, go after cis men who attack women in bathrooms.
02:22:07.000But how do you tell the difference between a cis man and a trans man?
02:22:11.000Trans women are more often the victims of sexual and physical abuse than they are the perpetrators.
02:22:16.000But that didn't actually address what I said, right?
02:22:18.000It's like, females and trans women, who gets supplanted?
02:22:21.000If females say, we want a space free from males, period, Then should they have their rights protected and having a safe space, or should trans women say, no, we actually get access to this space?
02:22:31.000Do trans men take away from your experience?
02:24:41.000We're praying for the working class in this country in this time of deep economic turmoil, for the unborn, and for our enemies, people we dislike, people who got fired from Vice still in Mulvaney, and that our country will return to God.
02:24:52.000I agree with you, the country will return to God.
02:24:54.000I think it is very important that we, although we will focus on the things we are saying, focus very much on the way we are saying them and find a way to communicate with people that we may disagree with.
02:25:04.000That's the root of empathy and communication and the unification of humanity moving forward.
02:25:09.000Thank you very much for coming, Lance.
02:25:44.000And the last thing I'll say is for those that aren't going to be at the members show, Lance, this is one of the best episodes I think we've ever done.
02:25:52.000I really do think These are the best conversations because we obviously clash and view the world differently, but this is where the conversation, it needs to happen for anyone's views to evolve or to at least understand what the other person thinks.