In this episode, we discuss the Waukesha massacre, the Ahmed Arbery case, and the Rittenhouse case. We are joined by Andrew Branca, an expert on self-defense law and intelligence expert Jack Posobiec.
00:00:00.000There's a lot of new information in the Waukesha attack.
00:00:12.000First of all, as I've been covering, as Andy Ngo covered, and now many other outlets have covered, the New York Post and the Daily Mail, among many others, the perpetrator had threatened white people on social media.
00:00:25.000He had posted black nationalist memes.
00:00:28.000He had expressed support for Black Lives Matter.
00:00:31.000And there's a lot of other information from the police reports about how he was slowly driving up towards the parade, slow enough that a cop was able to bang on the hood, and then walk around and bang on the door and tell him to stop.
00:01:09.000Strangely, I am shocked to say this, Debra Messing, of all people, had a tweet where she said it was not an accident, it was intentional, it was the Waukesha massacre.
00:01:18.000So we're going to get into all this, and we're going to break down the media lies and what's going on.
00:01:21.000And we also have big news in the Ahmed Arbery case.
00:01:24.000All three men were convicted of murder in the death of Ahmed Arbery.
00:01:29.000Now, on the law, seems like it was correct.
00:01:32.000But there are some serious problems that I think we need to talk about as it pertains to citizens' arrest and self-defense.
00:01:39.000And I just want to stress, man, The neighbor who was filming it, they charged him with murder, too?
00:02:15.000I don't have a generalized criminal defense practice.
00:02:18.000I've been doing that this year is 30 years now, doing nothing but use of force law in all 50 states.
00:02:24.000To my knowledge, I'm the only attorney in the country with that explicit focus strictly on use of force law, certainly for that duration of time.
00:02:31.000So getting into the Ahmaud Arbery stuff as well as the Rittenhouse stuff is going to be really interesting.
00:02:36.000I watched every minute of the Rittenhouse trial and much of the Arbery trial as well, so I have definitely strongly held opinions on both those cases.
00:02:44.000And it's crazy to me, not to take up too much time, but the Arbery case, people really don't seem to know anything about this.
00:02:51.000Even conservatives right now see they're getting it wrong, but we'll get into all that too.
00:02:54.000And we also have another individual who is an expert on many subjects.
00:02:58.000You worked in intelligence as well as just, you're on the beat, you know the news.
00:03:05.000You're talking about, you know, you're telling me that there's some driver of this SUV and yet I've been reading the media and it tells, you know, the New York Times says the SUV just drove through the parade by itself.
00:03:19.000It doesn't say anything about a driver.
00:04:20.000It was if the guy with the knife wasn't in his car with him attacking him.
00:04:23.000Well, we'll talk about this because there's there's now been investigations that have gone through real time investigations.
00:04:29.000People anons are actually going and driving the route right by themselves and then timing it up with the police scanner video with police scanner audio and the videos that came out from on the scene to determine the speed of this thing.
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00:08:09.000Oh no, don't tell everybody this guy supports Black Lives Matter and that he's promoted black nationalism and that he's threatened to harm white people, because that's the truth.
00:08:18.000And so if you look at this and you look at, uh, Jack Posobiec, you put out the court, uh, police report.
00:08:23.000This car was slowly creeping up towards the parade.
00:08:30.000And he was going slow enough that one of the officers was able to walk up to the car, bang on the hood, walk over, bang on the door, and then the car speeds through, choosing to go down this path.
00:09:05.000They're criticizing me and Andy Ngo and many others who are pointing these things out.
00:09:08.000What do you call it if a guy goes online, threatens harm against white people, and then gets in an SUV, drives up to a parade route, runs over a bunch of white people?
00:09:36.000If you have a guy who goes on social media and says he wants to harm white people and then he runs through a parade route directly through it, swerving into people, What you get is an SUV involved in an accident.
00:09:48.000Well, so here's what, and you can go see, go to walkershawcounty.gov, you can see the entire thing.
00:09:54.000I've got it written up as Detective Casey, Officer Berlin, you know, they come up and they talk about this where they say it was driving so slow that they were able to walk up to it, knock on the hood, then he brushes them aside, but he's still going slow.
00:10:10.000Then they're able to knock on the window, right?
00:10:35.000That just some anon went and filmed himself driving down that road and then they time it up with the videos and they realize that you would have to be driving slow and then speed up.
00:11:04.000You know, it's ridiculous to even think that you would somehow be, you know, accidentally trapped on a parade route.
00:11:10.000So as the car is driving, you can see this in the dash cam video that this guy filmed, you have to make a hard right turn into where the parade route was.
00:11:21.000So it's that hard right turn where he would have to smash through the barricades and then speed up to be able to go through.
00:11:42.000So there, they, it was a boat ramp, believe it or not, of all things, right?
00:11:46.000So there's a boat ramp, that's what you hear on the police scanner, that there's this altercation and there's something about Hey, that's actually why the first police officer went over.
00:11:56.000That he went over at approximately 4.35 p.m.
00:11:59.000Detective Casey heard via Waukesha Police Radio that a reserve officer was informed by a citizen that two people were fighting in the area of White Rock School.
00:12:09.000Squads were sent to that area to further investigate.
00:12:12.000A few minutes later, Detective Casey hears a horn honking from an area north of his location,
00:12:17.000and that's where he goes in and sees him, uh, go- essentially going into the parade route.
00:12:21.000I'm- I'm just wondering, you know, this guy lives so far away, why was he out there?
00:12:27.000I think anybody who looks at the story says, in the absence of evidence, the solution with the least amount of assumptions tends to be correct, and that looks like a terror attack, a racial and political terror attack, based on what this guy had said and believed.
00:12:42.000It's possible it wasn't, to be completely honest.
00:12:45.000What we have here is it was an intentional act, it was deliberate, and we can see his motivations.
00:12:50.000We can see some of his inclinations on social media.
00:12:53.000That doesn't mean, I'll correct, doesn't mean motivations.
00:12:56.000But I think, you know, when we're dealing with crimes and stuff, it is reasonable for a person to try and figure out what motive may have been.
00:13:03.000At this point, it is reasonable to assume this was a terror attack for racial and political reasons.
00:13:08.000Before... Real quick, we had just two days before this, the Rittenhouse verdict, we had an activist reported on the 20th.
00:13:15.000This was one day an activist, it was reported, had said that this country is a tinderbox and one more, you know, one more match or whatever and it's gonna go up.
00:13:27.000We had that Democrat in Illinois saying it's karma.
00:13:30.000We had activists on Twitter saying they wanted revenge, saying go, you know, to do bad things.
00:13:36.000And then come Sunday, a guy who's made posts about harming white people goes and does a bad thing.
00:13:42.000It's absurd to me to not start with that hypothesis.
00:13:47.000It's crazy how like if someone the way the way murder can can happen and how people will respond differently like if that guy had been face to face with each of those individuals looking in their eyes and using a knife to kill them each one after the other if this would be another realm then being behind the the icy cold steel of a car where they can't see your face it's like a drone dropping a drone bomb as opposed to being the one there doing the killing I mean, but he's... I understand the drone argument, but... They'd be stringing him up if he was like a knife killer and had blood all over his body and stuff.
00:14:19.000There are two lines here that I was just about to read, and one of them speaks to exactly what you're talking about, because it says, Officer Buterin observed the driver looking straight ahead, directly at him, and it appeared he had no emotion on his face.
00:14:34.000As the vehicle passed his location, he continually yelled for the vehicle to stop.
00:15:24.000Passion, you know, you maybe argue passion, but what was he mad about?
00:15:27.000Was he like, he was driving up and he saw some Karen yelling and he was like, oh now I'm really angry, and in this passionate moment, there was no great passion, so it was just... Legally it would only matter anyway if the passion was aroused by the people he used to force against him.
00:15:57.000And that may be why the police said it's not terror.
00:16:00.000Because it turns out the guy's just, you know, whacked out of his mind and was just slamming the gas thinking he was running over gummy bears or something.
00:16:06.000You know, he's just like, you know, tripping and crazy.
00:16:09.000So my issue is, I would love to believe this guy was just on drugs.
00:16:13.000I don't want to live in a world where we have this- But it certainly wouldn't be the first terrorist attack that was committed by someone on drugs.
00:16:18.000I'm just saying, if someone was on drugs, we can then argue, oh, okay.
00:16:23.000So there's evidence to suggest maybe it wasn't terror, just a drug addict doing something crazy.
00:16:28.000There's still, I think it's still a fair assumption that this guy was politically motivated in what he did.
00:16:32.000I'm just saying, right now, there is no evidence of drugs.
00:16:35.000The only thing we have is this guy's political statements about wanting to hurt white people, which, you know, something about banging heads or something.
00:16:42.000And then getting a car and doing this, plus the timing, plus the political nature of what's been going on.
00:16:47.000And so, I lean towards, not definitively, but I think it's a fair assumption, it was terror.
00:16:52.000If they come out with a toxicology report and say he was on drugs, it would shift more towards the middle again.
00:16:56.000And I'd say it's still, you know, likely it could be terror, but it could also be the guy was whacked out of his mind.
00:17:25.000But the anti-police posts that he had up, the posts about killing police officers, that's something that definitely would... He had a post about killing cops?
00:17:34.000Talked about, you know, called them pigs and this type of thing back in 2020.
00:17:39.000And that's definitely something that would have put him on the radar.
00:17:41.000So one of the things that I was thinking about reading this was, and of course in all of these cases, we, you know, it seems that we always come up to an extent where they were known to the FBI.
00:17:53.000Don't we always, don't we always hear about this?
00:17:56.000And so I was wondering based on those posts, I'm like, yeah, he's probably in a file somewhere because that would have pinged the algorithm.
00:18:02.000But then we hear this thing about the casino, and that he threatened to bomb a casino.
00:18:08.000That's like, okay, FBI's definitely got a file on this.
00:18:37.000He was chased by someone with a knife or there was a gunfighter.
00:18:40.000There was some innocent explanation for this It wasn't actually a an act of malice that that did this and I think there's a reason for it I think because this guy is a real problem for the bail reform movement now we've all heard about bail reform and I believe bail can use reform if someone's charged with a Non-violent crime and they're being they can't make $500 bail and that means they won't be able to work and pay the rent That's a real problem that needs to be fixed But that's not where bail reform in the real world stops.
00:19:09.000And those violent people go back to their community and create havoc.
00:19:13.000The same havoc they got arrested for the first time.
00:19:16.000And you might think, well why would anybody want that?
00:19:18.000Why would anybody want havoc in their neighborhood?
00:19:20.000But havoc, chaos, is not bad for business for everybody.
00:19:25.000It's bad if it's your neighborhood and you live there.
00:19:28.000But if you're a Benjamin Crump, for example, you make $10 million every time there's some kind of Zimmerman case, a Rittenhouse case, a Ahmaud Arbery case.
00:19:37.000These are money-making opportunities in the tens of millions of dollars for you.
00:19:44.000Not just money, but political capital.
00:19:45.000You're saying that There is a motivation to bring about bail reform because it results in an opportunity where a criminal can get hurt and they can monetize it.
00:20:30.000So, right, the pendulum has been swinging in favor of loosening bail requirements more and more and more until the point they include people charged with violent crimes.
00:20:40.000And eventually the pendulum's going to swing back, but when it swings back, that's going to be bad for some people.
00:20:45.000This case is a perfect example, a perfect warning to the normals in society that, holy cow, we all thought that bail reform was a good thing, but it's possible it goes too far.
00:22:10.000So, and then he, $2 million to get him out.
00:22:13.000And we can, you know, we can talk about the lawyers and all that stuff, but just on the system alone.
00:22:18.000One aspect that I would, so bail obviously has been around a long time.
00:22:22.000This isn't something, some new system that, you know, just was under like the Trump era or something like that.
00:22:27.000You know, and Trump actually was for, you know, criminal justice reform, although he was focused more on back end than front end.
00:22:33.000And not that I'm a supporter of the First Step movement, but just, you know, to clarify that.
00:22:39.000But when it comes to these types of situations, you know, you know, you were talking before about how the criminal citizens arrest law in the Arbery case was something that had been written during the Civil War in Georgia.
00:22:52.000It was still on the books at the time.
00:23:37.000And the state and the defense are going to go down that checklist of criteria.
00:23:40.000And it's like a little algorithm that arrives at the bail amount.
00:23:42.000So you can't make it part of probable cause?
00:23:45.000Well, a probable cause would be determined someplace else.
00:23:48.000It's not going to be determined right there.
00:23:49.000But a judge, a magistrate's not going to take time to look through even five minutes of video to try to come to some determination of what a bail should be.
00:24:28.000They then had a female officer lie under oath, and it wasn't until the National Lawyers Guild, who I'm not the biggest fan of, used my footage to show that the police lied, he was released.
00:24:38.000Did any of the officers get in trouble?
00:24:46.000If there's someone who is a regular working-class Joe, and he gets accused of a somewhat serious offense, but not like, not a felony or anything, the judge can be like, look, I think we should keep him in jail until the court, and then what, 87 days or 80 days?
00:25:00.000You lose your job, you lose your apartment, your car gets towed, your people are wondering where you went, your dog is going hungry, and then you get out destitute.
00:25:08.000So I will cite Benjamin Franklin all day and night.
00:25:11.000It is better that a hundred guilty persons go free than one innocent person suffer.
00:25:15.000If the court cannot justify reasonably an algorithm in three minutes is not justification for holding someone against their will when they are presumed innocent.
00:25:24.000That being said, everybody should keep and bear arms, and a free society means a society with risks.
00:25:34.000And if we're gonna let out people, and I don't think violent offenders, depending on what they've committed, I think that's reasonable for a judge to be like, you're accused of triple murder or something, okay, sorry.
00:25:44.000Go to Kyle, well, not triple, but yeah.
00:25:46.000Well, you got double murder plus, you know, a bunch of other charges.
00:25:49.000I can understand why they would be like, look, I'm sorry, you're being held because these are very serious and we're worried about the safety of others.
00:25:55.000There should still be some scrutiny there.
00:25:57.000But if we're going to let people out on bail, then all we need do is look at the constitution and say the fifth and sixth amendment, Benjamin Franklin and Blackstone and the second amendment.
00:26:16.000I mean, from my perspective, for example, I think probable cause hearings are worthless the way they operate today.
00:26:22.000What's supposed to happen is a probable cause hearing is supposed to be a filter to keep people from being dragged into a full-blown trial.
00:26:30.000Unless there's probable cause to believe they committed the crime.
00:26:33.000So at trial, they're going to have to prove you guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.
00:26:37.000If they can't even show 51% of the evidence going into that process, they shouldn't be able to drag you into the terribly destructive, dangerous risk of a full-blown trial.
00:26:47.000But probable cause doesn't work that way today.
00:26:50.000It doesn't work like a 51 degree threshold before you're brought into trial.
00:26:54.000It's essentially a zero degree threshold.
00:26:56.000The prosecutor can say whatever he wants.
00:26:58.000He can get officers to swear whatever they want.
00:27:01.000When things are later proven to not be true, it doesn't matter.
00:27:05.000They don't say, well, the process that got you into trial was inherently defective, so we're going to let you out.
00:27:10.000What we need is a genuine probable cause hearing.
00:27:14.000The reason we don't have one... I'm not defending this.
00:27:17.000This is just the practical way the system works.
00:27:20.000The reason we don't have that is because we have so many criminals going through the system.
00:27:25.000We could never give everybody a genuine probable cause hearing the way the system is designed today.
00:27:30.000And most of the people going through are criminals.
00:27:33.000So no one cares that they're not actually getting a probable cause hearing.
00:27:37.000No one notices until an innocent person Gets fed into that system and suffers all the thresher effects of that horribly destructive system.
00:27:48.000And you see it affecting an innocent person that way.
00:27:51.000Justice being blind is not always a good thing.
00:27:54.000Here's the example I'll throw out there.
00:29:00.000And they seeded the fake story about a blank and a misfire and shrapnel because the real story was that Alec Baldwin was handed a gun by someone who wasn't supposed to give it to him, that neither of them had checked the weapon, that it was loaded live, and he chose to, for no reason, seemingly no reason, to pull the hammer back, aim it, and shoot a woman.
00:29:18.000The scene did not call for that in any way.
00:29:48.000But the fact that he didn't check, that's still reckless.
00:29:51.000If Alec Baldwin walked in the middle of the street, and there was some woman walking down the street, and he pulled a gun and pointed at her and just shot her, intentional homicide.
00:29:57.000You would infer intent from that conduct.
00:29:59.000Alec Baldwin wasn't supposed to aim, cock, and fire a gun in that scene.
00:30:05.000I know, you know, the pattern, it's a set, so maybe something's going on, but if the script supervisor, and the lead electrician, and other witnesses there said, he wasn't supposed to be given the gun by that person, and then he chose to point it, pull the, you know, with live rounds in it, like, what's the difference?
00:30:20.000The difference is, if you're just in the middle of the street, you're not involved in a movie set, and you walk up to a woman, point the gun, pull the trigger, blow her brains out, that conduct is conduct, because we never know intent, right?
00:30:31.000We're inferring their intent from their conduct.
00:30:34.000And you can infer from that conduct they intended to shoot that woman because there's no alternative hypothesis consistent with the conduct there is in the in the Baldwin case because he was on a movie set so there may be some other reason why he did this without intending to kill her but he did kill her There's no justified reason for her killing her.
00:30:54.000He could have avoided killing her by taking the simple step of confirming himself that the gun did not have a round in it.
00:31:00.000And it is a violation of standard protocols to aim a weapon for any reason.
00:31:03.000Guns are inherently dangerous instruments.
00:31:05.000The standard of care is strict liability.
00:31:07.000If it goes off when you pull the trigger and a bullet goes through somebody, that's on you.
00:31:29.000We now know the stories were all lies.
00:31:32.000We know that he had no reason to aim that gun at a person because it's a violation of his decades of security training, of firearms training, on movie sets.
00:31:41.000Witnesses have testified, he's got multiple training, that AD wasn't supposed to give him the gun.
00:31:45.000He had literally no reason, and it was a violation of safety protocol, to aim it at a person It wasn't part of the scene, and there was a dispute with the crew over what was going on.
00:31:55.000I mean, look, you look at all the stories, all the news that has come out, and it sounds much more like Alec Baldwin has an anger management problem, so he took a gun, angrily pointed at the camera person, and shot and killed her, and then freaked out.
00:32:08.000That makes substantially more sense than the armorer made a mistake, who accidentally handed it to the AD who made a mistake, who gave it to Baldin who made a mistake, who accidentally aimed it at her, pulled the hammer back, it's a single-action revolver, and then shot her with it, and then a fake story gets seeded.
00:32:22.000So you're saying he could have been frustrated about something's going wrong on the set, he's stressed out.
00:33:46.000It's amazing to me because You have all of the evidence and all of the elements in that criminal complaint.
00:33:54.000That is a terroristic criminal complaint.
00:33:58.000The only difference is that the charge isn't there and what the chief of police says at the press conference.
00:34:05.000If you had added up all of those facts and you add in then one more paragraph of the statements that he had made online, the years and years worth of statements, you know what you have?
00:34:44.000You were out there, yeah, no, neither was I. But a guy, you know, fired a gun at one dude and another dude- You were at Berkeley, that was it.
00:35:52.0002021 Waukesha Christmas Parade car crash.
00:35:56.000On November 21st, 2021, an SUV was driven through, SUV was driven through, no name of the driver, driven through the annual Christmas Parade in Waukesha, Wisconsin.
00:36:04.000Almost makes it sound like it's part of the parade.
00:36:32.000And, of course, I can't find it right now.
00:36:33.000So, in Charlottesville, though, you get the driver, you get the fact that he had made a series of... It starts by saying a white supremacist guy's car.
00:36:49.000Perpetuated on August 12, 2017, when James Alex Fields Jr.
00:36:52.000deliberately drove his car into a crowd of people, peacefully protesting the Unite the Right rally in Charlottesville, Virginia, killing one person and injuring 35.
00:37:00.00020-year-old Fields had previously espoused neo-Nazi and white supremacist beliefs and drove from Ohio to attend the rally.
00:37:07.000So I think it's very important to point out that this comparison intends, the intention is to show the Waukesha attacker is comparable to what happened in Charlottesville.
00:37:18.000Someone who committed a violent act against a group of people and their horrifying attacks.
00:37:25.000But the media Over like just, just absolutely slams Charlottesville every moment they get and walk a shot.
00:37:31.000I think yesterday, CNN put a candidate in Virginia that just less what a week ago, a month ago ran his entire campaign was based around Charlottesville.
00:37:40.000Joe Biden launched the current president of the United States launched his campaign based on Charlottesville.
00:37:46.000This has been a seminal moment in American politics.
00:38:11.000Because it's not about any one particular minority group, it's just about the media has no problem, you know, actually they enjoy saying, like, a white person did this.
00:38:20.000So, you know, a lot of people are pointing out, what do you think would happen?
00:38:26.000What do you think would happen if, in the press, We had a story about a white man with years of posts about how he doesn't like black people, gets in a car, drives to a black suburb, and then rams a black Christmas parade.
00:39:54.000I gotta give a shout out to Debra Messing.
00:39:56.000Debra Messing is usually on the wrong side of a lot of things, we're usually criticizing her for, but today she tweeted Dear mainstream media, a man intentionally drove a car through a parade, killing six and injuring 50-plus.
00:40:17.000When celebrities and media are lying and omitting and covering up, and then Debra Messing, I mean look, she's had a lot of tweets I've been like, oh jeez, you know, what a crazy tweet.
00:40:26.000I'm pretty sure she's been on Siraj's list a couple times.
00:40:59.000He has a company do it, and that's why he sounds insane all the time.
00:41:02.000And you're like, he's probably just sitting in a room with like a warm blanket on his lap, like in the sun, half asleep, being old, and someone's tweeting away on his thing, you know, like Gravel Institute, you know, Mike Gravel, you know, he passed.
00:41:16.000By the way, so much for red flag laws then, right?
00:41:20.000Someone complains about you, your ex-girlfriend complains about you, the police come and take all your guns away because you could be dangerous.
00:41:25.000Turns out you don't need a gun to kill a bunch of people.
00:41:27.000You can just get a Ford Escape and run it through a parade.
00:41:30.000There was someone who actually tweeted that, by the way.
00:41:32.000I mean, this has been a talking point for some time.
00:41:35.000But the point I bring up is that every day you live in a city, you cross a street with these gigantic multi-ton vehicles flying at you and you're not scared of getting hit.
00:41:56.000Okay, so it happened a lot in the summer of 2015 or 16 in Europe, and this is interesting to me because I remember how the BBC and some of these overseas organizations characterized these mysterious car attacks exactly like the US media is characterizing this.
00:42:12.000They were literally terror attacks perpetrated by foreigners who'd come into like, for example, the UK and France, and they would not cover Where these people are coming from, what their ideologies might have been, they only covered that it was a car attack.
00:42:26.000This is why when you go to a Christmas market, and Tanya and I, a couple years ago, we were going through and visiting Christmas markets in Europe that, before we had kids obviously, and there are barricades up before you can go in to in every country in Europe, with the exception of Poland.
00:44:55.000I don't know if, you know, sending them for decades in prison makes sense, but they should have been charged for a lot of, you know, on something.
00:45:01.000The third guy who was just filming, I mean, this is, I just... So was the ruling then that he was part of the pursuit?
00:46:00.000He had 350 degrees of other directions he could run in.
00:46:02.000And it's not like the trucks went up on the lawns of properties chasing him.
00:46:05.000But, if they had been following him for several minutes, he knew they were following him, in his mind he may have been like, I can't get away from these guys, this guy's holding a shotgun, my only way out of this is to fight back.
00:46:17.000Well, maybe, but that's not an element of the crimes against them.
00:46:21.000If he had gotten the gun and shot them and been charged with shooting them, and he raised the legal defense of self-defense, then the reasonableness of his perception would be relevant.
00:46:30.000But it's not relevant with respect to these criminal charges.
00:46:33.000What would your analysis be, given that were the case?
00:46:50.000And that just makes proper legal analysis more complicated because there's a lot of misinformation, disinformation, and if you believe that stuff you come to a different outcome.
00:47:00.000But this guy was in that home repeatedly in the middle of the night.
00:47:03.000This is not somebody recreationally visiting a construction site.
00:47:07.000And there had been burglaries, there had been robberies, a gun had been stolen.
00:47:12.000And when we say that the McMichaels didn't know exactly what he was doing that day, they knew the other stuff.
00:47:20.000And the other stuff can play a role in your assessment of probable cause.
00:47:24.000If a police officer had seen those videos of him there those other times and then saw him apparently leaving the building again that day, the police officer is not required to pretend he doesn't know that past experience, those past events.
00:47:37.000He's allowed to consider that in coming to a determination of probable cause on that day.
00:47:42.000Even if he didn't see explicitly burglar-like activity that day, he's seen burglar-like activity from this guy on this property on previous occasions.
00:47:51.000And I think the answer is obvious, but you being the attorney on self-defense, if Travis McMichael, who has not been convicted on all counts, if he actually was a police officer who did the exact same thing, what would have happened?
00:48:28.000But of course the defense was that they weren't.
00:48:29.000The defense was there was no coordination between those two vehicles.
00:48:33.000So they weren't like a pack of wolves surrounding somebody.
00:48:37.000Look, I get it, but I also feel like, you know, I think about what I would be doing if I was running down the street and then a car comes up behind me and a car's in front of me.
00:48:47.000Right, but again, we're confusing it because you have to think, what would I be doing if that happened to me and I was engaged in felony burglary behavior?
00:49:32.000A shot was fired, hitting Ahmaud Arbery, and he died.
00:49:35.000Now, I want to stop, and I want to give you the real context in a more... in the spirit of what I think is a fair assessment.
00:49:43.000The media, the left will tell you, and this is what they did say, that a bunch of racists got in a pickup truck and chased down a jogger and lynched him, which is a psychotic lie.
00:50:28.000If he's got a gun, we could be in trouble.
00:50:29.000And if we try and say, hey, what are you doing here?
00:50:31.000And even try and talk to him, he could have a gun.
00:50:34.000When they stop their truck, and as you argued, the defense argued, there was no coordination, he gets out with a shotgun.
00:50:38.000He is legally allowed to keep and bear arms.
00:50:41.000When Ahmed Arbery ran around the truck and then grabbed the gun and fought with him, there was now dual possession of that weapon.
00:50:48.000In the fight, a shotgun blast killed Ahmed Arbery.
00:50:51.000So I look at that and I'm like, man, I understand the letter of the law, they got the conviction, but doesn't it feel like something doesn't make sense or doesn't add up properly?
00:50:59.000The narrative from the mainstream media is a lie.
00:51:01.000Does this get to the provocation argument that we were talking about in Kyle Rittenhouse?
00:51:07.000Well, the prosecution did raise the issue of provocation in her closing statement.
00:51:43.000The video's very fuzzy at that point, and there's parts where they're obscured by the truck in front, so you can't really see what's happening.
00:51:50.000But of course, the state has to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.
00:51:53.000But I don't think it matters, because if he's pointing at that point, he's being charged by someone.
00:51:59.000Arbery is on camera, going around the car, and at this point, there is no gun pointed at him.
00:52:05.000And he chooses then to turn left and engage Travis McMichael.
00:52:09.000So it's much more complicated than malice murder and felony murder, but they just said, you know, across the board.
00:52:16.000I want to make clear because there's obviously a lot of emotions around this.
00:52:43.000Because the whole case rested on this citizen's arrest statute and your interpretation of it.
00:52:48.000There were two possible interpretations.
00:52:50.000Lawyers in that courtroom and me, myself, outside the courtroom with lots of other lawyers.
00:52:55.000We, in good faith, argued different positions on that citizen's arrest law.
00:53:00.000The judge wasn't sure exactly what it meant.
00:53:02.000When all the legal experts can't decide on what it means, someone has to make the call.
00:53:07.000You can't have an A version and a B version, one of which favors the prosecution, one of which favors the defense, and whichever one is chosen decides the whole case.
00:53:55.000And of course the defense never claimed either of those things because that didn't exist, right?
00:54:00.000They didn't know for a fact that he'd committed felony burglary and the felony burglary-like conduct they were aware of was not contemporaneous with their efforts to arrest him.
00:54:33.000And if that position is accepted, well then they're convicted, because they don't have any of that.
00:54:38.000The defense position is, well no, the knowledge is, first of all, doesn't have to be absolute, doesn't have to be in his presence, because he was an apparent felon in flight.
00:54:46.000The standard should be probable cause.
00:54:52.000And probable cause can be based on knowledge not gained only in that moment, but prior knowledge that you're aware of.
00:54:58.000Surveillance video of the guy in the house that you've seen that's part of your knowledge base.
00:55:02.000It's part of why you believe it's probable that he's now also committing a felony burglary.
00:55:08.000If you have that definition that favors the defense, it's probably an acquittal.
00:55:12.000So these two competing versions, one wins for the state, one wins for the defense.
00:55:16.000The judge, his duty was to make a call.
00:55:19.000Look, we don't know which one of these really should apply, but I'm the judge, I decide what the law is going to be as presented to the jury.
00:55:26.000Now, when he makes a decision, later on he might be reversed.
00:55:30.000Appellate court might say, no, you chose A, it should have been B. Or the reverse.
00:55:33.000But it's also true that there's only one way to actually make that decision, because there's a legal doctrine called the Doctrine of Lenity, and it says if a statute is ambiguous in criminal law, the benefit of the doubt is always given to the defense, not to the state.
00:55:52.000So because the state drafted the law, the state passed the law, the state was in control of how unambiguously that statute was written.
00:55:59.000You can't hold that against the defendant.
00:56:01.000So if the judge was going to pick one of those versions, under the doctrine of lenity, he would be obliged to pick the version that favored the defense, and then we're looking at acquittals for these guys.
00:56:10.000And the city would have burned to the ground, right?
00:56:26.000The crazy thing to me is, you know, I tweeted basically about, I read your article, I did a video on it, and I tweeted like, this could result in an appeal.
00:56:51.000Looking at this, you have Kyle Rittenhouse, who was fleeing.
00:56:56.000And you have Ahmaud Arbery who is engaging.
00:56:59.000You can argue that by putting the pickup truck there and then having behind him that, you know, it was a fight-or-flight reflex, but he didn't have to attack them and go for the gun.
00:57:07.000So I was thinking about that in regards to your previous statements on Kyle Rittenhouse about how the mentality of Anthony Hooper, for instance, has no bearing on the self-defense right of Kyle Rittenhouse.
00:57:18.000Anthony Huber could believe he stopped being a mass shooter, but he's still threatening Kyle, who has a right to self-defense.
00:57:25.000In this instance, I'm curious about the different potentialities here.
00:57:28.000I mean, just what's your assessment on was Travis McMichael defending himself?
00:57:32.000It all comes back to that citizen's arrest law.
00:57:35.000If you believe the citizen's arrest was unlawful, Well, then it makes sense that Arbery would defend himself and he would have a right to defend himself against an unlawful arrest.
00:58:02.000So these guys... Oh, if these guys had just kept their mouths shut, you couldn't have had a prosecutor in the video.
00:58:07.000And if that guy released the video thinking it would exonerate them and it convicted all three.
00:58:11.000They gave the statements and months went by.
00:58:14.000I mean, the prosecutors... Remember, the original prosecutor passed on charges.
00:58:18.000I mean, he actually wrote a memo saying, no, this was lawful citizen's arrest and therefore everything is, you know, was within the bounds of the law.
00:58:31.000This is a money-making opportunity for some people.
00:58:34.000This is the point that I keep bringing it back to.
00:58:37.000And we now live in a society that is governed by viral videos.
00:58:43.000Whatever the last viral video that came out is now the new discussion, and if it comes out... Remember, George Floyd started with a viral video.
00:58:52.000The Central Park Karen, which actually turned out to be false, that started with a video, a very selectively edited video, which the guy who posted it actually later debunked on his own Facebook, because he said he did provoke her.
01:00:14.000Some people see that video and they see a felony suspect charging a man who has a shotgun in his hands, fighting that man for a shotgun, and dying in the effort.
01:00:23.000And by the way, when they show those gruesome wound scenes on Arbery, those are the same wounds that the McMichaels would have feared.
01:00:31.000They would have suffered if he had gotten control of that shotgun, right?
01:00:35.000But other people look at that video, and what they see is, they see a black man who was chased by a bunch of rednecks and is desperately fighting for his life.
01:00:44.000And what if, there's no point asking what Aubrey would have done with the gun, but considering he went for the shotgun and is visibly fighting for it, what would have happened if Aubrey got the gun and shot them?
01:00:57.000He would be charged, and it wouldn't be pressed.
01:00:59.000If I was his attorney, I'd be arguing self-defense.
01:01:15.000But I also think it's fair to say that if they didn't go out there with the shotgun, we also wouldn't be hearing about this case, because a fight would have broken out and that would have been the end of it.
01:01:29.000I think there's a lot of debate to be had around the nature of the Citizens Law Statute, whether this judge did his job, and I believe he did not.
01:01:36.000I just mean that if they weren't there, there'd be no case.
01:01:40.000That doesn't mean these guys didn't exercise poor judgment.
01:02:00.000They're charged with specific offenses, with specific elements, and specific defenses with specific elements.
01:02:06.000And one of those is citizen's arrest and how that law is supposed to be applied.
01:02:11.000And when you just give the jury the job of deciding how the law works, the only non-experts in the courtroom, by the way, the courtroom is full of lawyers.
01:02:20.000There's three prosecutors, there's six defense attorneys, and a judge, and none of them can figure out what the statute's actually supposed to mean.
01:02:27.000But we're going to let 12 jurors, untrained in the law, do that job.
01:02:31.000Let me ask you, in your opinion, based on the facts of the case, do you think these men should have been convicted?
01:02:42.000I don't think about the outcomes per se.
01:02:44.000I don't really care about the outcomes per se.
01:02:47.000In my view, justice is about the process, not about the outcome.
01:02:51.000Well, I'm asking because I was going to ask you then on the judge's ruling.
01:02:55.000So the first thing I want to understand is, you know, based on your understanding of the case and the law as you've read it, do you think it should have been an acquittal or... I think there was reasonable doubt that they had probable cause to try to make a citizen's... And by the way... You lean towards an acquittal is what you're saying?
01:03:11.000Yes, but I don't want people to misunderstand.
01:03:14.000By that I don't mean like I think it's more likely than not that they had probable cause, but that's not the legal standard.
01:03:19.000The standard isn't whether they were probably right.
01:03:21.000The standard is, is there a reasonable doubt that they could have been right?
01:03:26.000The math gets complicated, but could they have had a 51% belief that he was a felony burglary suspect?
01:03:37.000So a very tiny belief that they might have had probable cause should be sufficient for an acquittal.
01:03:42.000The reason I ask is, do you have, like, so you've mentioned the judge didn't do his job in defining and instructing properly.
01:03:49.000Do you have a view of how it should have been instructed?
01:03:53.000Yes, so my reading of the statute favors the defense.
01:03:57.000Because there's basically, it's amazing how ambiguous it is because it's only two sentences.
01:04:01.000So it's not like in the Kyle Rittenhouse case they had that gun statute where you had to refer to this other statute and then you had to refer to two other statutes beyond that.
01:04:09.000And it got very, kind of, well, in some senses complicated.
01:04:28.000And some people believe you've got to read those two together.
01:04:31.000And others, my position is you have to read them separately because it doesn't make any sense to read them together.
01:04:36.000So, the way I read it, it says, look, for citizens arrest generally, and that means for like misdemeanors, like shoplifting, for, you know, the smallest arrestable offense, you have to have presence or immediate knowledge.
01:05:11.000This is from your article from Legal Insurrection.
01:05:13.000It says, the two sentences are, a private person may arrest an offender if the offense is committed in his presence or within his immediate knowledge.
01:05:22.000If the offense is a felony and the offender is escaping or attempting to escape, a private person may arrest him upon reasonable and probable grounds of suspicion.
01:05:30.000So how I read that is generally, like even for a misdemeanor, if you want to arrest somebody for a misdemeanor, you have to have absolute knowledge, presence or immediate knowledge.
01:06:08.000So this actually, if we put these two requirements together, what we're actually saying is it's, it's, it's harder to arrest somebody who's a felon in pursuit than it is to arrest someone who's a criminal.
01:06:21.000Wait, wait, wait, but Tim, just put it back in a common sense, right?
01:06:24.000Couldn't this, isn't this also just the situation of, hey, stop that guy.
01:06:58.000When you know all the facts, you know that these guys were scared because, you know, as I mentioned, a gun had been stolen, there had been burglaries.
01:07:04.000You guys mentioned that the police had actually handed out his photo?
01:07:42.000I forget the status, if he was convicted of the felony, or if it was expunged, or... I don't remember the details, so I don't want to overstate it, but it was a felony charge for sure.
01:07:50.000Because he brought the gun, and then he fought the cops when they tried to arrest him for having the gun at the school.
01:08:10.000I want to break down this... Which would have made a huge difference, by the way, because that would have been a huge contributor to probable cause and reason to feel... No, I always remember that, because that's huge.
01:08:20.000I want to get at these two sentences real quick, just very simply.
01:08:23.000A private person may arrest an offender if the offense is committed in his presence or within his immediate knowledge.
01:08:28.000If the offense is a felony and the offender is escaping or attempting to escape, a private person may arrest him upon reasonable and probable grounds of suspicion.
01:08:35.000I think your assessment is very reasonable.
01:08:37.000To put it simply, if someone commits a misdemeanor, you have to know they did it.
01:08:41.000If someone you believe, your probable cause, has committed a felony and is fleeing... You're probable cause to believe they just killed somebody, they just murdered someone, that person, and they're in flight, right?
01:08:50.000So they're not waiting for the cops to show up, right?
01:08:52.000They're in flight, they're a reasonably perceived felon, you only need probable cause to stop them.
01:08:58.000Which seems to be a situation where you want to empower the citizenry... For the more serious crime.
01:09:06.000So they believed that at some point, this was a person who committed a burglary, and under the statute, he was trying to escape, they had grounds to stop him.
01:09:45.000And a normal statutory interpretation does not allow you to presume that a substantive part of a statute is there for no purpose.
01:09:51.000But I think one of the big questions was whether or not Right, well she didn't say it that explicitly, but she would only say what they knew that day.
01:09:58.000what you're saying, I think what the prosecution argued was their knowledge from previous incidents
01:10:03.000has no bearing on their right to commit a citizen's arrest today.
01:10:06.000Right, well she didn't say it that explicitly, but she would only say what they knew that day.
01:10:10.000They didn't see anything that looked like felony burglary that day.
01:11:22.000I mean, that's what I think most reasonable people would do.
01:11:25.000But there's a question here about, man, something doesn't sit right with the idea that someone can come into a community, be a burglary suspect, keep going into these homes, people are worried, guns go missing, and then you just sit back and say, that's the current state of our country.
01:11:39.000We just sit back and let this guy do it, because the cops can't stop him.
01:11:42.000And by the way, this happens repeatedly, right?
01:11:44.000This is a common theme in these events.
01:11:45.000So in the George Zimmerman event, he was living in an apartment complex that was being ravaged by burglaries and home invasions.
01:12:19.000The citizenry says, we got to step up and do something to protect ourselves, to protect our city.
01:12:24.000Kyle goes there as one of that group, offering medical services, gets attacked, kills, charged with murder, and the risk is because the state failed.
01:12:33.000With Arbery, we have a community that again is being ravaged by crime.
01:12:36.000This was once a little dream community, sleepy dream community.
01:12:40.000The house under construction was that guy's dream house that he'd always wanted to build there.
01:12:46.000And now the community literally was calling 9-1-1 for property crimes every day for three months.
01:12:52.000There were neighbors in that community, single mothers with children, who would not let their children play outside.
01:12:59.000Because of their fear of the crime in their community.
01:13:01.000And they'd call the cops, the cops would show up, the bad guys were always gone.
01:13:05.000So, the community says, yeah, everybody in that community was buying guns, installing security cameras, doing neighborhood watch, sharing Facebook messages and next-door messages with each other about the crime.
01:13:17.000This is right next to FLETC, by the way.
01:13:19.000So, the citizenry said, listen, no one's helping us, and we're living in fear.
01:13:23.000So we have to help ourselves and then we have this encounter with Arbery, he dies and they're going to jail for the rest of their lives now.
01:13:29.000So the chaos that's created in these communities by crimes and the failure of the state to provide security, is there any more fundamental responsibility of the state than that?
01:13:39.000And the idea that you cannot protect your community because the state has taken responsibility but failed to provide the security.
01:13:45.000You can do it if you want, but if push comes to shove, they will prosecute you and put you in jail for the rest of your life.
01:14:10.000The police should have been there, or in this case, the National Guard.
01:14:13.000When I remember in jury selection, I know you covered this as well, That there were people who came up and said things like, keep in mind, this was night three.
01:14:24.000The car source had already been burned once, right?
01:14:44.000There were people saying during jury selection, I was so scared that I took my kids and we got out of town for the week.
01:14:52.000You had other people saying, I couldn't afford to get my kids out of town.
01:14:56.000So we went to the local church and I was there sleeping with my children inside the church because I thought that that wouldn't get hit, that it wouldn't get burned.
01:15:04.000I was in Kenosha two weeks after this happened.
01:15:07.000A lot of Kenosha, by the way, still to this day boarded up.
01:16:29.000Because George Zimmerman, Kyle Rittenhouse, if they had done something and found themselves in a fight and killed that guy, They get charged for murder.
01:16:38.000This is exactly what I, when I was in China, there was a situation where I was in KFC of all places.
01:16:44.000And, um, I'll tell the short version of the story.
01:16:47.000Guy starts beating his girlfriend on the other side of the room.
01:16:49.000Starts just, just smacking her, slams her head into the table, um, throws a soda in her face and just starts just walloping her right there.
01:17:17.000So I got up and I got him and I removed him from the KFC.
01:17:22.000And I remember afterwards and my Mandarin, I was still learning Mandarin, but I heard people saying, you know, why are you getting involved?
01:17:34.000And I was, I was freaked out afterwards because I'm sitting there thinking, and this is what almost 15 years ago, but at that point, this was prior to, you know, Zimmerman and Rittenhouse and all these things.
01:17:47.000And it didn't even enter into my mind that something like that could happen in the United States and nobody would do anything.
01:17:54.000And I'm a guy who's from the Philadelphia area, right near where this happened.
01:19:12.000If you see a child crying, and you go up and say, let me help you, Good luck!
01:19:19.000There are stories that I read about there was a dad with his like five-year-old daughter and they're at a Walmart and as they're walking out someone called the cops saying there's a strange man with a child and the cops came and detained him and questioned him and separated the kid put her in the car and started asking her a bunch of questions and he's like that's my daughter and they're like we're asking the questions here and of course a five-year-old has no ID and then finally they determined okay well it seems to be correct I go around with my kid all the time.
01:19:53.000What might a five-year-old say in all innocence?
01:19:56.000That would be misinterpreted by law enforcement.
01:19:58.000What if you're playing cops and robbers with your kid earlier in the day?
01:20:02.000And then the kid says, he's the bad man and he was bad bad bad chasing me.
01:20:09.000What if you're lifting your kid out of his car seat and you accidentally hurt his finger or something and he's crying and then somebody walks up and says, what's going on?
01:20:17.000And he points at you and says, he hurt me.
01:21:08.000Well, if you carry a gun, like I carry a gun, so you're hard to kill, I carry a gun so I'm hard to kill, my family is hard to kill, then you also owe it to your family to make sure you know the law so you're hard to convict.
01:21:21.000And it does sound a little dark, like hard to convict, as if like, but I think the fair way to put it is know the law so you stay within it.
01:23:16.000So, for example, you can push someone off your property, or I guess you could tase them if they're on your property, but tasing is a much higher degree of force than simply shoving somebody.
01:23:50.000And if somebody is coming on their property and, let me ask you this, if a guy enters your property and he's got his hand in his jacket as he's walking up and he's looking at you, and then he goes to pull his hand out really quick and then you shoot him, what do you think would happen to you?
01:24:04.000It would depend upon the local jurisdiction.
01:24:06.000So that's going to be a judgment call by the prosecutor.
01:24:08.000How do you prove he was actually going to do that?
01:24:10.000It turns out he had nothing in his hands?
01:24:12.000In theory, you don't have to prove anything.
01:25:23.000And unless people have thought that through ahead of time and developed, learned techniques to kind of, to strip away the ambiguity, so like in that scenario, It's very common.
01:25:33.000A common scenario I get from women is, hey, I'm walking in a parking garage late at night.
01:25:37.000There's some guy like walking behind me.
01:25:39.000He hasn't done anything yet, but there's something about him.
01:26:02.000And now his conduct, in the face of your verbal commands to stay back, is conduct consistent with someone who means you harm.
01:26:08.000This is like guys who have no, you know, no hand-to-hand combat training or have never done any mixed martial arts or anything, and they say, oh, I'm just going to take that guy in that street fight.
01:26:20.000I just see white man, and I'm just gonna go.
01:26:24.000And it's like, you haven't taken any time to actually train yourself to understand what it's like to be in physical combat with somebody to having, you know, or, you know, a guy who has a gun that doesn't go to the range or doesn't, you know, even dry fire practice aiming or any of this stuff.
01:27:23.000No, they did it with a taser, I'm pretty sure.
01:27:27.000My friend and I had an idea to make gloves.
01:27:29.000My friend and I had an idea that you could make gloves that you would turn on, and if you grabbed someone's arm, you'd essentially disable their ability to move their arm, which was, you know.
01:27:39.000And we actually talked with a very big company who initially got really excited for the idea of a crazy science project.
01:27:46.000And then when, like, these are the sales and sponsorship guys.
01:29:40.000What if you made like a like a one you could throw kind of almost like but it's like sticky So that you throw it and then I mean, that's a good idea.
01:29:49.000Because why would I want to be so close that I have to touch somebody that they could, you know, presumably do something to me, the thing doesn't work, but I'm just throwing them.
01:29:59.000I don't like contact weapons for self-defense.
01:30:05.000What if we created some kind of like dense, expanding, sticky foam of some sort, and we could take the cartridges and just put them on your wrists, and you can trigger it with a little trigger.
01:30:18.000So when you push your fingers, it will blast them with some kind of sticky substance.
01:30:26.000Could you imagine if cops actually had web shooters and they fire a net of web?
01:30:32.000It would be funny because the whole left is like a Holyoake subsidiary of Disney now.
01:30:39.000So they wouldn't know how to be against it if the cops were like, yeah, we're going to have these Yeah, we're gonna have these these we're gonna come web packs and they'll go right on your right on the inside your forearm there and you just shoot him at the crook and I mean I'm off fewer riots Here's what you do replace all police uniforms with Hogwarts uniforms So all the police are running around and instead of baton, they're all equipped with one and it's like a wand.
01:31:07.000Oh But they'll have their guns and everything underneath their robes.
01:31:10.000The goal is when the riots happen, they show up dressed like Harry Potter characters and accuse the rioters of being Death Eaters.
01:31:44.000And then all of a sudden, we're like, yay!
01:31:48.000That's, uh, I'm stealing Seamus' joke from Freedom Tunes.
01:31:51.000He did a bit where it was like, he says, Rosenbaum is kind of like Voldemort, and leftist is like, and there's a picture, he has a picture of Kyle Rittenhouse as Harry Potter, and the guy's like, I can't believe that worked.
01:32:01.000All right, let's go to, we're gonna go to Super Chats.
01:32:03.000If you haven't already, smash the like button!
01:33:06.000But suffice it to say, Binger, I don't believe, is done with Rittenhouse or... He's going for Dominic Black on the gun charges, but I think he's desperately trying to get back at Rittenhouse.
01:33:16.000Because I think the gun charge was dismissed, right?
01:34:22.000I mean, if our Blacks Defense lawyer, I would start arguing that look the statute gun that was used in a death, right?
01:34:28.000So giving a gun to a minor and a death results Yes, and it's intended of course to prevent giving guns to young gang members who then go kill people or get killed themselves and we obviously nobody wants that but in those cases what the what the old statutes intended to prevent is unlawful deaths and that didn't happen here this gun was used to in a justified manner. These deaths were lawful, determined
01:35:12.000Stood up for his friend and not tried to weasel his way out of charges.
01:35:16.000All the testimony around the whole gun thing was very shaky because Binger was trying to make different points at different times and therefore represented the evidence in different ways.
01:36:15.000You know, well, if it's polymer, sure, but that's But it's effectively a hollow point, you know, it's a soft, it's a, it's a poly tip so that it functions the same way.
01:36:22.000You use a hollow point for deer hunting because you want, you want the bullet to expand and dump as much energy into the prey animals as possible.
01:38:17.000Martin Edgar says I see your 35 year old skating and raise you 54 year old seven-year army with daily runs four times per year 12 mile road marches 23 years as a city carrier walking route and My response is have you gotten your ageless?
01:38:31.000Yeah, I was gonna say, he's teeing you up right there.
01:40:04.000And I also have this mix that I basically got that it was sort of like an online playlist that people made of the greatest hits that I really like.
01:40:17.000I am trying very hard, and I'd like to enlist everyone out there.
01:40:20.000If you don't know who Sabaton is, they're like a Swedish hard rock band that does historical references in all of their music to actual warfare and specific real-life battles.
01:40:33.000Of course, they sing a lot about Poland.
01:40:52.000What's worse for self-defense, a gun or using a knife?
01:40:57.000I'm not sure what worst means, but when we talk about the degree of force, I mean, use of force law doesn't really care about the means of force.
01:41:05.000So there's non-deadly force and there's deadly force.
01:41:08.000Once you're in the deadly force bucket, it's all the same.
01:41:10.000So a gun is not more deadly force than a knife or more deadly force than a baseball bat to the head.
01:41:16.000If it's likely to kill or cause serious bodily injury, it's deadly force.
01:42:32.000Each time the knife, it was a foam knife that tapped his chest.
01:42:35.000You're not going to get the gun out and get center mass hits unless you train and practice and practice and practice and practice to do that.
01:42:42.000I mean, I shot competitively most of my adult life.
01:42:44.000I can clear the gun from my holster, center mass targets in under a second.
01:43:21.000When he was out on that street, and he made... Everybody he shot was someone attacking him, except for Jump Kick Man, which was a very difficult situation, getting knocked on your butt and trying to hit somebody who's jumping on top of you.
01:44:56.000It was certainly not designed, but I'm talking about the original design of the AR-15, because it was originally designed for the military, for Department of Defense use.
01:45:06.000Except that the original design always had selectifier.
01:45:09.000And that's the one reason that you see the forward assist that's on it, because originally the designer didn't want that, but the military said, no, we have soldiers, and these were people at the time that had served in World War II, and they said, look, we've been in so many situations where the round doesn't chamber, something goes wrong, we want that forward assist.
01:45:28.000And I believe that when, on that video, where you do see Kyle at one point, and this is what came in with Gage Grosskreutz, Where Gage claims, falsely, that Kyle is, you know, recharging the handle.
01:45:42.000That's a very deliberate and... It's a big motion.
01:45:46.000...definite motion that you would see on camera.
01:46:05.000Uh, based on the story that I read, that neighbor who was just following and filming, he's getting charged with fel- he got convicted of felony murder for that.
01:46:14.000Well, they're claiming, in effect, that he attacked Arbery with his truck.
01:46:19.000He committed assault with the truck, which is a deadly force attack.
01:46:22.000Aggravated assault, it's a felony, and then Arbery died as a con... Now, I would suggest there's a real causation problem there, because there's no evidence he hit Arbery with the truck, and there's no evidence the truck literally caused Arbery's death, right?
01:46:34.000He didn't run him over with the truck.
01:46:37.000Arbery didn't jump off a cliff to avoid the truck.
01:47:01.000Like the last day of the trial, O'Brien tried to sever, is the legal term, sever himself from the other defendants, but the judge didn't allow it.
01:47:08.000of the judge didn't allow it. So they chose to do a joint trial? I don't know if they had an option
01:47:17.000and that's a criminal procedure thing that would be so local you'd have to ask an attorney.
01:47:20.000The prosecutor naturally wants to try everybody together.
01:47:22.000Because I imagine the prosecutor would want that to be all together.
01:47:28.000All the evidence appears to be against every defendant.
01:47:31.000Right, because of course their theory is, well this was a coordinated act, you guys planned this in advance, or at least you Yeah, anytime a prosecutor can try a bunch of people together, they'll do that every time.
01:47:41.000Because then, you know, if you had three defendants and really a third of the evidence was against each one, what it looks like in court is that a hundred percent of the evidence is against each one.
01:48:07.000I think that this is a situation, again, the same way that Kyle Rittenhouse walked because of independent media, it's the same situation now where independent media is One of the most important things to the survival of this country and the survival of freedom in this country Because it is the last bastion shows like this shows like, you know, we all have podcasts and everything that we do I'm not trying to do a hard pitch here that you are not going to get the truth anymore from corporate media or regime media as you want to call it and
01:48:56.000Anything that was in the criminal indictment, he's not going to be able to sue over.
01:48:59.000Because the courts have said if it's in a criminal indictment, then calling him a murderer or stuff like that, people are allowed to make that inference.
01:49:57.000They have to show malice now if they want to collect money.
01:50:00.000But even if you can do all of that, What are your damages?
01:50:04.000Because your damages will be damage to reputation, but all that other stuff, the murder, the white supremacist, the racist, there's just no reputation left.
01:50:13.000What are the damages for the Alex Jones case?
01:50:18.000Because he said some conspiracy stuff about Sandy Hook.
01:50:20.000They claim, I believe they're claiming emotional distress.
01:50:28.000They did rule Alex Jones in default because they claimed the things he turned over in the discovery weren't the total of what they were actually asking for.
01:50:35.000They said, we want X. He says he gave them X. They say, you're still missing key documents.
01:51:18.000First, even if Kyle Rittenhouse loses after suing the media, it's actually not possible
01:51:23.000for Kyle Rittenhouse to lose his efforts against the mainstream press when it comes to defamation
01:51:28.000It's not possible because one of two things will happen.
01:51:30.000Either the news organizations will have to publicly state that their standards don't include reading the criminal indictments in their investigations, don't include cursory investigations, that they just publish hearsay as fact, or opinion as fact, or scuttlebutt as rumor as fact.
01:51:45.000You're saying they'll have to argue that in court?
01:51:46.000They will have to publicly state in documents.
01:51:49.000It is a standard at CNN that we do not do basic base research in any of our stories because that would be the actual malice standard.
01:51:56.000But will the people who watch CNN care about that?
01:52:01.000Rachel Maddow admitted this and she's still getting a pay raise.
01:52:05.000Having these organizations have to publicly state this is bad for them, across the board.
01:52:13.000It's not going to be a million dollar paycheck, but it is a cultural victory.
01:52:16.000To me, I think it's even bigger than the media.
01:52:18.000You have Joe Biden, who's our current president.
01:52:22.000Run and used this kid as a political pawn, lied about him, lied about his family, called him a racist, called another trying to play this game of, Oh, I was referring to this.
01:52:40.000He should have his campaign, by the way.
01:52:42.000They should sue the campaign, not him personally.
01:52:44.000Sue the campaign and then go after them because they don't have whatever kind of immunity that the president does.
01:52:49.000Oh, that would hurt reelection, wouldn't it?
01:52:50.000Sue the campaign because yes, you would have to hurt because Biden, well, the White House is telling people he's going to run again, but privately, that's not what he's telling people.
01:52:58.000The other important thing is that when it comes to damages, I think Kyle's going to easily be able to argue that security, name changes, he's going to have to move out of the state, he's got to protect his address now.
01:53:10.000Right, he's going to have to do this for the rest of his life.
01:53:11.000But the other side's going to say, look, he would have had to have done that anyway.
01:53:15.000We didn't make that happen in any substantial way.
01:53:18.000That was already damage he was incurring from other The New York Times ruled this in a... I'm sorry, the courts ruled this in a New York Times case.
01:53:27.000The Supreme Court ruled this with Veritas, a different state, I understand.
01:53:30.000But they said to the New York Times, because the New York Times argued, their reputation is too damaged already, we couldn't damage it any further.
01:53:36.000And the judge basically said, just because other people are kicking them doesn't mean you are clear of your responsibilities for kicking them.
01:53:44.000Well, listen, I hope Kyle gets hundreds of millions of dollars.
01:53:50.000I think a lot of people look at this and they just assume that he's obviously got a downhill fight in this.
01:53:55.000And I think it's more complicated than that.
01:53:58.000I think a lot of people think Sandman got $250 million from CNN, which is just absolutely not true by any reasonable assessment or legal assessment.
01:54:07.000he got a settlement, which means they may have paid him 25 grand. Some people said it was probably a
01:54:13.000nuisance fee. CNN said, how much do you want to go away and stop bothering us? And they said,
01:54:17.000well, we don't know. Right. I mean, cause I mean, it's a settlement. It wasn't $20 million.
01:54:20.000Well, one thing, one thing I should say while we're talking about this, that if you do believe
01:54:27.000You go to FreeKyleUSA and that's where you can actually contribute and help the fight.
01:54:32.000So Kyle, who obviously deserves a victory in all this, it's FreeKyleUSA, I believe it's .org, that you go to.
01:54:40.000That's where you can contribute to help his fight.
01:54:42.000We have this from one free man, he says, I own a construction company and have had over a hundred, and had over hundreds of thousands stolen, stop emboldening criminals.
01:54:51.000When it comes to Arbery walking in that home under construction, what people need to understand is that there's copper, there's steel, there's wood.
01:55:34.000He's not going to run off with a thousand pounds worth of lumber, but he's looking for power tools.
01:55:39.000I used to work as a mechanic and we used to have guys walk in the garage all the time just off the street and just grab a power tool and run out with it and just go pawn it.
01:55:47.000So that's probably what was happening.
01:55:49.000But in any case, people should be clear, under Georgia law, felony burglary doesn't require you actually take anything.
01:55:56.000It just requires you entered the property with the intent to take something.
01:56:17.000So I actually had a question that came in from my dad and my brother who are watching, and they said, You know, given all this that we're talking about, and it goes to what Tim was asking, you know, what does that mean for a neighborhood watch operating in 2021?
01:56:31.000You know, I get this question a lot because I have people... What do you do?
01:56:34.000I have people contacting me saying, hey, what if there's a riot or something?
01:56:37.000Can we set up like a joint defense group in our community, right?
01:56:41.000Where we'll all have our ARs, we'll stand at the end of the street... Like if you have a car dealership, for example.
01:56:48.000First of all, if you have a formalized group where you've all agreed to do this and someone ends up getting killed by a member of your group, I guarantee you the prosecutor is going to call that a conspiracy.
01:56:57.000Everyone is going to be charged as an accessory in that murder.
01:57:23.000The only way for it not to be you is for you to be helpful in our investigation.
01:57:27.000This is the classic prisoner's dilemma.
01:57:29.000That would be the worst idea to ever say to me.
01:57:31.000So the least liked guy in that group gets screwed.
01:57:35.000Every other guy in that group is going to be Dominic Black on the witness stand testifying against him.
01:57:40.000Binger kept trying to tie Kyle to the Kenosha Guard Facebook page.
01:57:44.000He tried it for months and months and they couldn't find any evidence And then there was one point where, and I'm paraphrasing, but he was in on one of those, one of the zoom earlier hearings where he's trying to say, well, he operated with other people who may have been part of it.
01:57:59.000And, and it was Schrader who was just like, you can't, we're not doing this.
01:58:37.000But this is why you don't join these groups.
01:58:39.000Well, that's why I always caution people.
01:58:41.000People like Dominic Black, you know, cowards and pathetic, whiny little losers will turn on you in two seconds and then still claim to be friends with you.
01:58:47.000And then, you know, Kyle will apparently still be friends with him because, you know, I think people are just weak.
01:58:53.000I mean, in this Arbor case, there was literally zero evidence that there was any coordination between the McMichaels and between Brian.
01:58:59.000But that didn't keep the prosecutor from arguing accessory, from arguing that Brian was a party to everything.
01:59:08.000But what would you also just tell people that really do care about their neighborhood?
01:59:13.000Maybe not necessarily faced with one of these situations, but just in general.
01:59:17.000The prudent thing to do would be for each person to be, you know, at the end of their own driveway, maybe sharing a cup of coffee with an AR slung, if they're afraid an angry, looting, arsoning horde is going to come down their street.
01:59:30.000But the moment they organize, and even in an informal way, like we're a collective group, we're working cooperatively, if something bad happens, they're all parties to the criminal offense.
01:59:41.000Well, you know what I would say, and honestly even answer to my own dad's question, is You have a cell phone.
02:00:00.000Listen, there's a reason I have security cameras all over the outside of my house.
02:00:03.000And it's not just so I see stuff coming in.
02:00:05.000And so if something happens, I want that camera footage.
02:00:08.000And it's an interesting anecdote from the George Zimmerman trial.
02:00:11.000They were investigating him for this killing of Trayvon Martin, and his story sounded like self-defense to everybody, but they try to trap him, right?
02:00:31.000They said, listen, George, we have a real problem with your self-defense story because We found some surveillance video and we know exactly what happened.
02:00:41.000Because he knew, he knew what happened.
02:00:44.000He knew that if they had video, it was going to be in his favor.
02:00:48.000I want that video of something happens outside my house.
02:00:51.000That being said, if the cops ever come, lawyer, lawyer, lawyer.
02:00:55.000The guy in the Arbery case thought the video was going to exonerate them from the, again, I think the story was that the community hated them.
02:01:03.000I can only say that that guy was described by his own attorney in court as not the smartest guy in the room.
02:01:10.000I don't understand how sending that guy to prison serves justice.
02:01:13.000Which again, show it to a lawyer first.
02:01:15.000He was nearly in tears when they were reading the verdict.
02:01:17.000And I'm like, this dumb guy driving a car, filming something, gives out the footage to be like, here's what happened, and now he's going to prison?
02:01:23.000This is why people say, I will not be involved.
02:01:28.000By the way, another reason not to be part of a group.
02:01:30.000One member of that group might be Roddy Bryan.
02:01:43.000It was a point about how, you know, make sure when you're teaming up with people, you don't have idiots with you.
02:01:50.000So that, like, he didn't literally mean go commit crimes.
02:01:52.000Listen, I've got a lot of friends in law enforcement.
02:01:54.000They'll tell me that the hardest cases they have to solve is where the bad guy did it by himself and didn't say a word to anybody.
02:02:01.000Because that's how you break those cases, is when they have accessories in the crime, someone who will talk, or they told someone, and that person will talk.
02:02:09.000Well, it's a lot of self-defense ends up being that way, too.
02:02:11.000It's right, you know, it's me, and I'm with a guy, and it's late at night.
02:02:16.000I mean, a lot of it is, but a lot of it's not.
02:02:18.000I mean, a lot of it is, you know, in people have a beef, and it's in a public environment, and people, these days, everyone's got their camera, as soon as, you know, you hear a ruckus.
02:02:27.000I mean, prior, yeah, prior to the sort of mass surveillance.
02:02:37.000So when you're out at a bar, and someone picks a fight with you, just know the camera's watching, and you need to make sure that you are avoiding active aggression, you are initiating, you back away, you put your hands up, you shake your head, and you try and de-escalate, because a fight you can escape is the fight you've won.
02:02:57.000What matters is not what you think you're doing.
02:02:59.000What matters is how your conduct will be perceived by other people.
02:03:03.000Other people who may not have your best interests at heart.
02:03:06.000So you almost have to role-play yourself when you're out in public.
02:03:10.000Assume you're always on camera, people are always watching.
02:03:13.000And how are they going to perceive your conduct?
02:03:16.000Don't skate the thin line of self-defense.
02:03:18.000Make sure you are way, way inside a thin line.
02:03:20.000By the way, if you want to know where that line is, LawOfSelfDefense.com slash TimCast for a free copy of this $25 book.
02:03:29.000Now I got to do it, because folks, if you are worried about sleeping soundly in your bed at night, I'm worried if someone's keeping watch for you.
02:03:37.000Now, you might not be the one who's drawn watch that night.
02:03:40.000So if you're sleeping, make sure that you're sleeping on a MyPillow from MyPillow.com with promo code POSA up to 65% off.
02:03:47.000Beat Joe Biden and Pete Buttigieg with the supply chain shipping problems.
02:04:07.000And we're going to go over to the member segment, so don't forget to smash the like button, subscribe to this channel, go to TimCast.com, become a member so we can have that substantially less family-friendly members-only show.
02:04:19.000It's like, you know, wow, you're 18 and older, man.
02:04:21.000I don't know, you don't want your kids to hear that stuff.
02:04:23.000We swear all the time, we talk about really serious issues.
02:04:25.000But if you want to hear that stuff, TimCast.com, become a member.
02:04:28.000You can follow the show, TimCast IRL, basically on all platforms.
02:04:46.000There's like, I don't know, 30 supporters right now, but hopefully it'll be thousands in the near future.
02:04:51.000I don't know, Tim, if you've got much of an audience in the UK, but I'm actually going to be over speaking in London on December 8th with Nigel Farage and a group of European delegates that are coming.