Action4Canada - Action4Canada Homeschool Webinar： Raising Boys to Men

00:00:00.000 all right good morning certainly where i live it's still morning it's 10 a.m

00:00:07.020 good to have you here more people will be signing in and my name is doris doris livingstone and i'm

00:00:14.700 the homeschool lead at action for canada and i'm excited to introduce you our guest today

00:00:22.120 doranda wilson we had her on like i said last august and uh she's got some really good

00:00:29.540 encouragement for all of us on raising boys to men are you a mom of boys raising boys in today's

00:00:38.080 cultural climate is a challenge boys are often misunderstood and misdiagnosed when they are

00:00:44.640 simply doing what their career wired them to do as moms of boys we can struggle to understand them

00:00:50.880 and respond in a way that will encourage them toward the kind of manhood god has in mind

00:00:56.300 in raising boys to men doranda shares her almost three decades of experience raising and homeschooling

00:01:04.200 her five boys she brings wisdom and perspective that will inspire moms to see their sons

00:01:09.860 in a fresh and hopeful way so moms can raise the next generation of boys to be courageous men

00:01:16.840 of faith and action doranda wilson has been married to daryl for 34 years they have eight kids and 10

00:01:25.540 grandkids and have been homeschooling for 30 years that's a little long time she is a trusted voice and

00:01:32.880 resource at homeschool conventions and on the doranda wilson podcast doranda is the author of four

00:01:39.780 books and i have them all the unhurried homeschooler a simple mercifully short book on homeschooling and

00:01:47.960 it is it's an easy read so what a great book to have on hand the four-hour school day which was the

00:01:55.860 interview we did last year in august now you can see it better august 22 if you wanted to look that up

00:02:04.160 how you and your kids can thrive in the homeschool life in four hours and then we've got the unhurried

00:02:11.200 grace for a mom's heart 31 days in god's word and then now today we've got raising boys to men

00:02:21.240 this one's nicely worn out i've already given it to my daughters who have boys and i took it back so i

00:02:28.740 could prepare for today and uh it's a simple again mercifully short book on raising and homeschooling

00:02:35.620 boys easy read folks highly recommend this book and all the books and uh so we're just excited

00:02:42.800 welcome doranda wilson thank you for giving us your time and talking about how to raise our precious

00:02:51.040 little boys into great men for god and men of character and uh tell us a little bit about

00:02:59.740 why the book is so important for moms right now well i think that we're in a crisis both in our culture

00:03:10.660 and even within the church when it comes to masculinity we're being lied to in all kinds of ways

00:03:17.840 about gender and what masculinity really is it's actually become trendy to hate men um and this

00:03:26.140 is something that has been growing and building for years and years and years and so here we sit as

00:03:32.700 moms knowing that there are real significant meaningful differences between boys and girls but are

00:03:41.640 struggling to reconcile what we know to be true about our boys and then what the culture and even

00:03:48.880 much of the church is telling us and so what we really need is we need to be equipped but we need to

00:03:57.500 be equipped biblically and so that was my hope and prayer as i wrote this book was that i really wanted to

00:04:04.080 see i wanted moms to experience what i experienced just knowing that their boys are fearfully and

00:04:10.280 wonderfully made by god to accomplish his purposes in ways that are unique to men and boys different

00:04:16.580 than girls right and more than anything i want moms to enjoy raising their sons for the adventure that

00:04:24.520 it truly is you know i've sort of i say all the time i had two goals with this book a short-term goal

00:04:30.600 and a long-term goal the short-term goal would be that families would be changed for the good when it

00:04:36.500 comes to raising their sons and then the long term would be that over time so in 10 to 15 years we

00:04:43.320 would see a shift in the culture toward god's word and his ways because we have raised these young men

00:04:52.200 to be warriors and dragon slayers and so that's that's my hope and prayer for this book that's awesome

00:05:00.460 i i have a feeling this book is going to be far-reaching and i hope this video also gets out

00:05:07.000 to so many listeners um i think i agree that we are in a crisis and um it's so good to be talking

00:05:14.640 about this in your opinion why are boys often misunderstood and misdiagnosed well my answer is

00:05:21.300 going to be kind of obvious but somehow controversial in our culture that's that boys are boys they're

00:05:30.460 not girls and and you know like i said before we as moms we know there's a difference but we're

00:05:35.580 trying to reconcile you know kind of like the way everything is in our culture the way things are set

00:05:41.980 up for instance of the educational system it is set up really to work for girls not to work for boys

00:05:49.440 very few boys thrive in that setting and i would go as far as to say that the setting is toxic

00:05:55.520 especially for little boys and um and that's why i i often just say that the school system is a

00:06:01.480 terrible place for most boys our boys were made to be active busy competitive and physical and all

00:06:11.400 these things are frowned upon um within many of our systems that are in place including the educational

00:06:18.580 system and so this these features that they have that are actually features not bugs

00:06:25.760 are um are a gift from the lord but they are frowned upon and discouraged

00:06:32.180 by you know these these institutions who are really set up more for a more feminine type of setting

00:06:39.820 in other words they're expecting our boys to be like girls and then we're wondering why we have

00:06:45.780 problems why they can't sit there for eight hours a day or even four hours um when they're younger

00:06:52.400 you know like maybe a little girl can sit quite a bit longer than a little boy and somehow the boy

00:06:57.980 is the one that's broken in that scenario and so this is where we're running into just such a

00:07:05.080 such a hostile environment for boys uh in that they're they're being misunderstood and misdiagnosed

00:07:13.360 because we're not looking at them the way that god created them and the purposes and the plans

00:07:20.260 that he has for them in being wired that way so that is something that you know i talk a lot about

00:07:28.620 in the book there's a story that i told about a when our son was in the hospital for two months

00:07:34.040 straight the first two months of his life he had open heart surgery when he was three days old and

00:07:38.000 there was an intern a nurse that was interning and i kind of got to know her a little bit and she

00:07:43.380 she knew i had this was our fifth boy and um she had a little boy and she was telling me how he had

00:07:48.780 so many problems in the classroom he was maybe six years old and i looked at her and i just said

00:07:55.800 i i know what the problem is and she was just like wide-eyed and and ready to hear whatever i had to say

00:08:02.260 and i leaned over and i said it's because he knows that he's supposed to be digging in the dirt

00:08:07.940 and playing with worms and building forts and riding his bike and she sort of looked at me like

00:08:12.900 i had three heads but the the thing that's interesting about our children is they know

00:08:19.560 early on they know what they were made for they have a desire to do the things that they

00:08:24.060 developmentally need to be doing and boys need to be moving not sitting in a classroom writing essays

00:08:29.920 i was just reading a comment here uh it in the chat my 11 year old boy says i might like school

00:08:37.980 if it was only two hours and how true that is because especially when they're young you can get

00:08:43.740 a lot done in an hour even absolutely and the rest of the time get them outside yeah yeah you know

00:08:51.520 when i talk when i burn burn burn right when i was on before and talked about the four-hour school day

00:08:56.400 i want people to understand that it's not four hours for a kindergartner and when our kindergartners

00:09:02.120 did you know zero maybe 30 minutes a day and there was a slow building from there but at the end of the

00:09:08.660 day um we still didn't go really much more than four hours even for our high schoolers and so yes

00:09:14.660 the that's the beauty of homeschooling is it is efficient and it is effective and so we can get so much

00:09:20.480 more done in way less time um the teacher's student ratio is amazing and that's actually

00:09:27.380 one of the number one predictors for a student success and so just by taking our kids home we've

00:09:33.960 immediately given them a leg up because of the teacher uh student ratio is is so much better at

00:09:39.900 home than it would be in a classroom even with my eight kids it was great yeah yeah um you did answer

00:09:46.660 a couple of the questions here about what we can expect from boys and um when we see the aggression

00:09:54.720 in the boy uh how concerned should a parent be and yeah and should we add some boundaries to that

00:10:04.800 right well i do talk about boundaries um i'll i'll i'll go into that in just a minute but the first

00:10:11.660 thing that we need to be thinking about in our concern for our boys being aggressive is going

00:10:16.820 back to what i mentioned before that boys were wired by their creator toward aggressiveness now

00:10:22.480 there's a sliding scale you can have a little boy on this end who's far less aggressive and um

00:10:29.080 and then you can have one over here who's majorly aggressive and so there's going to be varying

00:10:34.100 approaches to how you're going to handle that aggressiveness but again that aggressiveness is not

00:10:38.620 a bug it's a feature our boys were created to build lead protect provide and conquer and you know

00:10:47.580 i i often tell the story about how um i read in a book called the minds of boys i've really i really

00:10:53.960 just read one chapter and it was the most helpful thing i ever read it it it was on boys aggressiveness

00:11:00.060 it was talking about how you know how you and i will sit and have a cup of coffee and talk and

00:11:04.280 that's how we bond um for boys it is this that competitive the wrestling um the physical activity

00:11:12.940 um even the you know just punching each other things like that that's how they bond and i when i read that

00:11:19.600 i had you know my five boys at the time and it although i didn't i couldn't relate to it i understood

00:11:26.280 what was being said because i saw it in my boys and so this is this is again a feature not a bug and you know

00:11:33.940 god isn't calling us to raise just raise nice guys you know he's calling us to raise warriors

00:11:39.240 and dragon slayers and i think the culture does not appreciate or recognize aggression as a good

00:11:45.180 thing first of all because they don't recognize the creator and having a creator changes everything

00:11:50.740 and how we approach life how we approach parenting how we approach our education with our kids

00:11:55.100 but we don't the culture in general doesn't appreciate appreciate aggression because we aren't running for

00:12:00.780 our lives anymore you know there was a day not that long ago when we needed men who who could protect

00:12:08.400 the women and children because they were very vulnerable and now we live in a you know in a

00:12:12.580 society that is you know there's a lot more safety in place but we still need men for protection and i

00:12:21.380 would say that one of the bigger areas right now is that we need men who are willing to fight

00:12:27.240 against the moral and political overreach that's determined to destroy the family and so we need

00:12:33.200 men who are kind and understand how to help the helpless but they're not afraid to wage war when

00:12:39.280 necessary because they love what and who they're fighting for and so again with all of that in mind it is

00:12:48.140 important that we have boundaries with our boys very firm clear boundaries although they're wired to

00:12:56.680 lead build protect provide and conquer often they start out doing it poorly so often we'll see them

00:13:04.760 trying to do one of those things but they are they're unsure and not wise enough to know how to do that so

00:13:13.180 i'll give you an example you've got a little boy and his sister and another's brother or a friend is

00:13:20.460 there and in the friend or brother gets a little rough with his sister you know and he doesn't like it

00:13:25.940 so he just hauls off and decks him okay well that's we see what he was trying to do there

00:13:31.980 but the way that he did it was not wise and so we as parents need to teach our boys how with discernment

00:13:41.660 and wisdom to lead build protect provide and conquer so by nature boys do want to lead um that is

00:13:50.520 something that they have a desire to do and although this is a blessing in order to be good leaders they

00:13:56.120 first have to go through the training that scripture describes so they need to go through that that time

00:14:02.080 in their childhood where they need to obey their parents in the lord for this is right they need to

00:14:07.140 honor their father and mother so that it will go well with them and we teach that through discipline

00:14:13.680 and setting boundaries and um really training is what i would call it and i described this in the

00:14:20.140 book when i on the chapter on discipline that there are a couple of kinds of training so we don't believe

00:14:27.180 as christians that um that discipline is about punishment it's not punitive because we believe that

00:14:34.780 jesus died to pay the he took the punishment for our sins however our children do misbehave and they need

00:14:41.560 consequences and the consequences should match the crime as closely as possible and i'll give you an

00:14:48.180 example of what that looks like uh same example different training scenarios so you've got a dad

00:14:55.220 who um and and mom who have told the son okay we need you to chop this pile of wood here we need you to

00:15:03.000 split this by friday it needs to be done and stacked well the son is lazy and distracted and doesn't

00:15:10.280 focus and doesn't get the job done by the end of the week and now the family's ready to go do something

00:15:14.920 really really fun but his parents look at him and say i'm sorry you can't come you didn't finish

00:15:22.460 what we asked you to finish and so you need to stay here and finish that so that's that's one kind of

00:15:28.960 training um the other kind is when the dad is out chopping wood and he calls his son out to help him

00:15:34.900 and his son says well am i in trouble do i have to do this because i did something wrong and the dad's

00:15:39.860 saying no this is just a skill that i believe that you need to learn how to do and so we're gonna we're

00:15:45.900 gonna work on training you in this particular skill and of course that could apply to so many different

00:15:51.040 areas of life so our job as parents is to train our children and part of training involves boundaries

00:15:59.400 because what we want to do is we want to teach our boys and our children to self-regulate and so

00:16:05.320 um so that's why boundaries are very very important with boys they have to learn that um how to serve

00:16:13.660 and how to listen and how to respect authority and honor authority before they can be in leadership and so

00:16:20.520 um their childhood and as we're raising them is is that's the preparation time for that

00:16:26.880 that's good um so dorinda you share an acronym in raising boys to men that makes it easier for

00:16:34.800 moms to remember what their boys need can you share that acronym now and what it stands for

00:16:40.220 sure well i made it um something that would be easy particularly for moms of boys to remember so the

00:16:49.600 acronym is burp so b is for boundaries u is for use few words r is for respect

00:16:56.880 and responsibility and p is for prayer so that was a way to sort of reduce everything down to

00:17:02.700 something you could remember but i have a chapter in each book that expounds on all of those things

00:17:09.200 um you i think it's great i think the word burp definitely it should stick with almost everybody

00:17:19.560 yeah yeah it it's it's it is an easy one to remember and i think when we're in the midst of

00:17:25.580 of parenting it can be easy to forget these wonderful things we read in books so if we can

00:17:31.880 just think boundaries use few words respect and responsibility prayer what do i need to be engaging

00:17:36.540 in right at this moment you know um it's it kind of sometimes half our brain shuts off when we're

00:17:42.840 stressed out so it helps a lot to have a way to remember that yeah the use few words i think that

00:17:49.920 really uh stuck with me because i'm a mom of daughters but just remembering like when communicating

00:17:58.840 with my husband it was it was it was still applicable fewer words got better results than

00:18:06.620 these long drawn-out conversations that they just i don't know if um like i said i've got grandsons and

00:18:12.620 i'm so i'm learning um the glazed look of their you're losing them because the words are too long

00:18:18.720 it's too much information right right exactly exactly yeah yeah um you write that work is a gift from the

00:18:28.480 lord and that building a strong work ethic inner voice is one of the greatest gifts we can give them

00:18:34.440 why do you believe this is true well you know our kids can have all kinds of skills and ability

00:18:41.380 but if they have no work ethic those skills and abilities are not going to serve them nearly as well

00:18:47.880 the the great thing about a work ethic is it really gives our kids more opportunities over time we have

00:18:55.060 seen this as we've built this into our own children um they you know they do the things for us we had them

00:19:01.500 in that training and then they started working for neighbors and friends and then pretty soon they

00:19:06.640 had jobs and the the feedback we continually got was they're just so hard working like we we just it's

00:19:14.580 hard to find an employee or someone to work for us that has the kind of work ethic that your kids do

00:19:19.500 and so they were highly sought after and this is happening also in um in their lives and careers as

00:19:27.440 adults um constantly being made another offer for to work for someone else and so and and so much of

00:19:35.600 it comes back to this this strong work ethic and our kids have said you know it's one of the best

00:19:40.520 things you ever taught us was how to work hard the thing that's great about um having a strong work

00:19:46.800 ethic is it teaches perseverance and resilience it brings out heart issues along the way that need to

00:19:52.900 be dealt with you know if we just let our kids kind of go do what they want versus requiring work out

00:19:59.220 of them we miss the opportunities to deal with the character issues that are in fact there um and really

00:20:05.760 need to and should be dealt with under our roof um as much as possible before they leave home um also

00:20:13.220 a work ethic giving them a work ethic specifically with boys it gives them something to conquer and this is

00:20:20.500 something i talk about throughout the book how important it is that we give our boys a lot of

00:20:26.180 physical activity including a lot of physical work and all the reasons why that is the case and ways to

00:20:33.220 do that the practical tips in the book and um you know just some ways and some examples some stories

00:20:40.980 um but a work ethic strong work ethic also builds confidence in our kids and skill sets and and it prepares

00:20:48.660 them for life you know um work is a gift from the lord you know god um told adam and eve he gave them

00:20:56.340 dominion over the garden before the fall so work wasn't something that happened as a result of the fall

00:21:03.220 everything that happened before the fall god called it good so work is good it is a blessing and we're made

00:21:11.140 for it we are we are literally made to work we all know how good it feels at the end of a

00:21:16.900 a day that we have worked hard there's this satisfaction and this gratification that is

00:21:22.660 it's difficult to find anywhere else and so if if we can instill that in our kids wow what a gift we

00:21:30.340 give them for life and you know as women too it's very appealing to see that in a future spouse

00:21:39.540 um to see that uh a man knows how to work um it's not even so much about like having a high paying job

00:21:49.300 it's that he has the ability to work and and take care of himself um by working hard at whatever it is

00:21:59.060 he's doing right and there's that that provision that you see that ability to provide and um and

00:22:08.180 that's not that's not a selfish desire to want in a husband it's a godly desire to want because that's

00:22:14.740 what they were one built for and and two just god has god has ordained them to do that and so um to want

00:22:23.460 that to desire that to see that as attractive is a very natural and normal and godly thing to be

00:22:29.380 looking for yeah and and just another thought about work too um because in homeschooling you can

00:22:38.100 condense the amount of hours of actual like formal teaching time or school time um as my kids got into

00:22:46.180 being teenagers uh we lived in a town that was a tourist town and so all the seasonal jobs would

00:22:53.620 open up around april and so they were always snatched up first because not only were they available after

00:23:02.500 lunch to to start to go to a job but they had the work ethic already and i mean it starts as so young

00:23:11.460 as like when they're sweeping the floor because we want them to learn how to sweep the floor

00:23:16.340 and they may not get it quite right that first time and so as a parent sometimes it can be a

00:23:21.540 little painful like i would rather just do it myself it'll just be faster it'll be more efficient

00:23:26.580 but taking that extra minute and walking the child you're like oh there's there's a little bit in the

00:23:31.140 corner there let's do that together let's let's clean that up and then you know four or five times of

00:23:35.460 that they know how to sweep the floor and so it's that early groundwork that by the time they're 13 14

00:23:42.180 they know a lot of things because we've taken the extra minute in their earlier life to show them

00:23:49.940 how to do something thoroughly yeah exactly that's exactly right yeah and it's all part of the whole

00:23:56.740 work ethic thing instead of doing a haphazard job somewhere like they're doing it thoroughly and

00:24:01.380 they're doing it respectfully they're doing it properly they're finishing timely all those little

00:24:05.700 things that matter and employers really notice that um my brother has been a boss and um when he

00:24:14.980 was he was in charge of scheduling and uh one of the biggest complaints he had was yes he was dealing

00:24:22.260 with high graduated university students going into his industry but they didn't either know how to treat

00:24:29.780 the customer they didn't know how to get along with their colleagues they didn't know how to sort of

00:24:34.420 like really invest at work and be thorough and so those are the qualities he's now looking for

00:24:42.980 or he was at the time when he was still hiring was uh besides the qualification of the university degree

00:24:51.380 what's their work ethic like i don't even know how you learn that when you're hiring on the spot

00:24:56.740 but it's becoming more prominent i find over the years and what yeah what a gift we give our boys

00:25:03.700 right yeah we teach them how to work problematic in our culture and we're seeing more and more and

00:25:09.700 more of it um in fact it's getting to the point where some businesses are willing to bypass the degree

00:25:19.060 for someone who is self-motivated knows how to work knows how to be a team member knows how to

00:25:24.340 complete a task completely okay so listen to everything that we're describing our kids can

00:25:29.860 learn this through chores at home and through working alongside of each other so their brothers

00:25:35.620 and sisters are their co-workers and you are the boss and so they're learning all of that at home

00:25:43.780 through everyday life with our kids chores should be part of our kids day their daily rhythm chores

00:25:51.300 should be part of their it's it's part of their education so to see that as a separate thing or an

00:25:57.300 obstacle to real education um is really a it's a it's a lie it's a deceit because that is part part

00:26:06.420 and parcel in fact i would go as far as to say it's more important than making massive amounts of progress

00:26:13.940 in the books and because once if our kids are motivated um they know how to follow directions

00:26:20.420 they're willing to learn they know how to pivot um they get along with others they can learn anything

00:26:28.580 so the sky's the limit on what they can do really i mean so yes a work ethic is an absolute gift yeah

00:26:37.860 thank you for just expounding on that why do you think are the what do you think are the biggest

00:26:42.580 challenges for moms of boys well i think the biggest challenge is that we are so different from them

00:26:49.460 and it can be difficult to understand them and so what automatically happens is um also because we

00:26:56.260 live in a culture that's very much leans toward feminine everything women are always right men are always

00:27:03.220 wrong women are you know far superior men are not you know just this whole thing and and even though we

00:27:09.860 know in our heads that's a lie that's not true it's so it's so part of our culture that it has

00:27:17.620 informed our thinking whether we realize it or not so the challenge is to respect the god-given nature

00:27:25.700 of our boys and direct their energy and pot and productive directions i heard a mom once say her

00:27:32.420 biggest job is to employ and exhaust so so this understanding that the biggest part of our job is

00:27:40.980 to direct that god-given energy so i heard a gentleman once told me that there are three

00:27:49.220 um questions that are going through the minds of boys all the time number one who's in charge number two

00:27:58.180 who's on my team and number three what are we doing or in other words what is our mission they have

00:28:03.780 this need to conquer so often when boys are misbehaving or doing things that they shouldn't

00:28:11.620 i'm not excusing that behavior but i am saying as parents we do have a certain amount of responsibility

00:28:16.820 to keep directing that what we can do is when they start to to go that direction um stop and ask

00:28:23.940 ourselves what are they asking are they asking who's in charge are they asking who's on their

00:28:28.020 team are they asking you know what is their mission or maybe more than one of those questions and then

00:28:33.940 try to answer those questions so we're repeatedly answering those questions for our boys all day long

00:28:39.380 and we're doing that by keeping the boundaries um by letting them know we are on their team we're

00:28:45.780 doing things for their good we want to see them grow up to be strong men who know how to be good

00:28:51.300 leaders and right now that means you've got to honor mom and dad and you have to learn to you know

00:28:56.820 respond well to your siblings and work hard and all these different things and then um and then we give

00:29:03.300 them regular missions you know um even from the time they're very very little i had our little 15

00:29:08.740 month old grandson he was following me around and sometimes he wasn't whining but sometimes they are

00:29:14.340 even if they are um they're they're whining or they just seem sort of directionless and so i said van

00:29:22.580 come with me let's go to the freezer he follows me to the freezer i pull out a couple packages of

00:29:27.380 meat i hand him one i said can you carry this for me and so he carries it he's very proud of himself

00:29:33.540 and uh we both walked to the kitchen and i put the bowl down and i said okay put it in the bowl

00:29:38.420 so just those kinds of things repeatedly throughout the day can you help mom with this can you you know

00:29:45.300 and i'm not saying we're we're just just running them all day long but i would say that they need

00:29:50.660 that kind of direction more than we would guess so to respect the god-given nature of boys and direct

00:29:56.820 their energy is one of the biggest challenges the second one is to not parent emotionally so this is

00:30:05.460 really tempting for us as women because we're nurturers and we're more emotional by nature this

00:30:11.300 is a good thing this is a gift from the lord but we have to remember that our emotions make they can

00:30:17.460 be a great warning light but they are a terrible gps so there are times that boys do some crazy

00:30:24.500 unexpected things and our job is to respond not react so um i actually have an episode on uh responsive

00:30:34.740 parenting versus reactive parenting talk about more clearly what the difference is between those

00:30:41.540 two but i think you can kind of guess by by the terms that i use we don't want to respond emotionally

00:30:47.300 we don't want to parent emotionally our boys will not respect that they will not respect it things

00:30:52.980 will get worse not better the best thing for boys is to have very clear boundaries and very clear

00:30:59.620 consequences if those boundaries aren't kept and typically physical consequences work the best i

00:31:06.100 mean push-ups sit-ups um you know i think about you know like our maybe a 14 year old or whatever our

00:31:14.420 14 year old boys as they were growing up it was just you know sometimes they would be mouthy to me you

00:31:19.460 know they wouldn't wouldn't they would say something disrespectful to me and i would be all right on the

00:31:24.020 floor 10 push-ups right now you do not talk to me that way so you almost have to have a little bit of

00:31:29.380 the the the attitude or you know position of a sergeant which is not comfortable for me as a nurturer

00:31:37.300 but it's necessary it was necessary for our sons and every boy is different but i would say that overall

00:31:44.100 that that method that approach worked well with uh with our boys and and does work well with most

00:31:51.460 boys and again as parents you you take that and you use what works and use discernment and all of that

00:31:58.820 but i think as moms we really struggle to because we don't understand it and can't relate to it

00:32:05.940 it doesn't cross our minds to approach it like that and this is where husbands can come in

00:32:11.780 very very uh they can be very very helpful i learned pretty early on to go to my husband especially

00:32:19.860 when it came to discipline issues with the boys because he understood them he understood what

00:32:24.420 they needed and some of his ideas i i only went with them because i had nothing left i was worn out

00:32:31.380 pooped out had no more answers i didn't have a better solution so we went with it and it worked

00:32:36.900 so don't forget moms to go to your husbands and ask them to help you understand and approach your

00:32:43.780 sons and and their discipline um in a way that works well for them

00:32:50.420 i totally agree and you know if they're already single moms here um i'm sure you can find uh an

00:32:57.780 uncle or some sort of male role model where you can uh have that man build those sort of principles into

00:33:06.500 your son um maybe there or even your dad if he's young enough or a brother or a trusted friend um

00:33:16.740 find somebody who can help you with that if you are on your own as a single mom yeah i would preface

00:33:22.820 that with saying ask the lord to bring somebody along and for you to recognize that that is who needs to be

00:33:30.180 the the the mentor to your son the other thing i would recommend um highly is trail life usa i don't

00:33:37.220 know if they have it in canada though that would that might be the difference in in in the states

00:33:41.700 here we have a an organization called trail life usa basically replace the boy scouts when the boy

00:33:47.300 scouts started going a direction that a lot of believers didn't want to go um so there may be an

00:33:55.220 organization i don't know um in your area um i'm not sure in your province where they have something

00:34:01.540 like that where they they will have godly men who volunteer and so your son can be matched up with

00:34:08.980 somebody to help mentor them and they camp and they fish and they do all the the guy things together

00:34:15.060 um with this organization also um dorinda going back to this the very beginning of what you're talking

00:34:21.300 about you had those three questions i just wanted to post them in the chat what

00:34:25.060 were those three questions um who's in charge uh there it is yeah who's on my team

00:34:34.820 and what are we doing or what is our mission

00:34:41.700 well those are super great questions um yeah i mean if you have them in the forefront of

00:34:48.180 of your mom brain probably every day right i'm sure that would help yeah

00:34:54.900 that employing and exhausting is is huge and i don't know i found that no matter the personality

00:35:02.180 my boys loved it they loved to be able to know what it is they were supposed to be doing and then go

00:35:08.100 do it there was a there's this this this desire to conquer for them even if it's a small thing or a big

00:35:14.580 thing um they come away satisfied just but through accomplishment and so um so as moms if we can kind

00:35:24.740 of keep them keep that energy going in a productive way in a productive direction we're training them to

00:35:32.420 be productive you know to be producers as opposed to consumers you know we all consume to a certain

00:35:38.340 degree but i really believe it's important to raise kids and to be people who produce more than we

00:35:44.180 consume now you homeschooled all of your sons from kindergarten to graduation in what ways did their

00:35:52.500 education look different from your daughter's education you talked a little bit about that in

00:35:57.620 the beginning about how the school system is tailored to girls tell us about your experience well my experience

00:36:03.620 was they needed a lot more physical activity so typically for our boys between subjects i would send

00:36:09.300 them if you know i would ask them sometimes they were ready to move on because they just wanted to get

00:36:13.380 through it you know they wanted to conquer it and then they would have that free time in the afternoon

00:36:17.060 that we always gave them but often um they would take a break between subjects they would go out and

00:36:23.300 jump on the trampoline uh do some jumping jacks um just go do something physical in between their

00:36:29.860 subjects i would set a timer um otherwise i might forget about them because there were a lot of

00:36:35.060 kids and all of a sudden i realized it's noon and so and so had never came back so i would do i would

00:36:41.380 set a timer and uh call them back in and that was the deal i would tell them you know i'm happy to do

00:36:47.540 this i want you to have this break but if you don't come back when i call you then the deal's off and

00:36:54.180 you're just going to have to keep going and they did not want that so physical activity typically

00:36:59.220 especially in the early years more hands-on type things more experiential type things um curriculum

00:37:07.140 that used less words um whether i took a curriculum i had and just reduced the amount of words used or

00:37:15.540 whether i specifically chose something simpler to avoid the overuse of words um again brain breaks

00:37:23.780 sometimes the brain breaks weren't necessarily physical sometimes they would choose to go play

00:37:29.060 with legos and legos would reset their brain um creativity will do that physical activity will do

00:37:35.620 that um a lot of times my boys learned things better through experience than through reading a book um

00:37:43.060 the other thing that i did with them was i really encouraged them to own what they were doing so

00:37:47.780 i didn't hover over them while they were doing their school work um my girls were a little more

00:37:54.660 relational and like to do more relational things and the boys were more like let's set the goals

00:37:59.380 and then let me conquer it is what they wanted and often even when they were struggling with something

00:38:04.820 i was always close by for questions or whatever for help that they needed they tended not to ask me and

00:38:10.420 sometimes i would see their faces and they would be grimacing and making all kinds of you know faces that said they

00:38:16.420 were really struggling and i would go over there and say hey do you need some help and they would say no

00:38:20.500 i want to do it myself and what developed from that was these massive problem solving skills that

00:38:29.300 were they to this day are benefiting them greatly as adults they don't look at problems and think

00:38:36.740 oh i can't do this or immediately say somebody has to help me or somebody has to do this for me

00:38:42.900 they are like how do i figure out how to do this that's that's their mindset and that happened

00:38:48.420 in those early years when they were just simply doing school work and i encouraged that independence

00:38:55.140 and so those were some of the things that i did differently with the boys that kind of lines up with

00:39:01.940 my next question here why do you think it's so important to take an unhurried approach to homeschooling

00:39:08.020 especially with boys won't this cause them to fall behind in their education yeah the the idea that

00:39:15.140 if we don't start education or what i what i mean by when we use that word education we're often

00:39:20.740 speaking about book work and curriculum but kids are learning all the time and this idea that if we

00:39:26.500 don't start book work early they're going to be a failure or they're going to get behind is a myth it is

00:39:32.180 a myth it's one of the reasons i wrote the unhurried homeschooler and the four-hour school day because

00:39:38.260 this if we follow our kids natural love for learning and we start reading and writing with them when they

00:39:46.180 seem ready they will respond so much better and studies have actually proven that there's no advantage

00:39:52.740 to starting early in fact the opposite is true especially with boys when boys are pressured with too much too

00:39:58.740 soon they give up and they might show up physically but they've already checked out and they're not

00:40:05.780 being encouraged to love learning in fact they're they're actually we're pushing them the opposite

00:40:12.260 direction so we want them to equate good emotions and experiences as much as possible with learning

00:40:18.980 especially in the early years because we're we're building their relationship with learning and we want

00:40:24.900 that to be a positive one it doesn't mean they never have to do something they don't want to do but i really

00:40:29.780 especially in the early years tried to make them practice the doing the hard things more in real life

00:40:37.780 scenarios than in the book work because i don't think developmentally they're ready for that challenge of i'm

00:40:43.860 going to push myself to do 10 more math problems or get through this hard math problem that is something that

00:40:50.660 happens later on as they get older when their brains are more developed but in the early years all they

00:40:56.580 do is look at it and feel like a failure and feel stressed and pressured and that that creates a

00:41:04.900 negative relationship with learning and that's what that's the opposite of what we want so we want to start

00:41:11.140 out um you know when they seem ready and then gently move forward slowly as they are ready and it and the

00:41:19.780 thing that the thing that the thing that's interesting is we we never think about this but forced learning

00:41:24.980 is not real learning when when learning is forced upon us as opposed to something we want and we see the

00:41:33.860 need for um it changes everything it just we retain it so much longer um typically for life when it's

00:41:43.700 something we want to learn either by desire or by need because we're looking at this going like a

00:41:50.900 little boy who is trying to figure something out and he realizes i i need more information but i don't

00:41:57.700 know how to read this is what happened to our grandson once he realized okay i don't want to sit

00:42:02.900 around for and wait for mom to help me look this up anymore i want to be able to do this myself so when

00:42:07.620 they see that need then all of a sudden man they can move forward at lightning speed i always liken it

00:42:14.580 to uh digging post holes in alaska like you can chink away at the ice all the way through winter if you

00:42:21.700 want to and make some sort of progress but or you could just wait until the spring thaw and all of a

00:42:28.340 sudden it takes you a fraction of the time and the same thing is is true for learning

00:42:32.740 i'm just um reading a comment in the chat to specifically to what you're talking about i don't

00:42:42.340 know if you want to have a quick look at it um there's a mom talking about her 11 year old son

00:42:46.980 who's not motivated to do anything but he loves loves sports so my my input to that would be um tailor

00:42:55.380 any of the writing and the reading around the sports he's interested in yeah and if there's statistics

00:43:02.340 you know you start bringing in the math right and for him to understand more statistics he'd probably

00:43:09.380 have to get more grounded in some basic math skills like you said with reading if he if your grandson

00:43:15.540 learns how to read then his world opens up do you have any more thoughts on how to encourage this mom

00:43:22.580 because he's 11 and he just loves sports but he doesn't want to do his schoolwork well i i everything

00:43:28.900 you said was just spot on if you can tailor his writing tailor his reading um to even tailor his

00:43:37.460 math around sports i think you'll see a massive shift and and you know i would have that conversation

00:43:45.540 with him you know help him understand that the reason you're teaching trying to teach these things

00:43:51.700 to him is so that he can understand these things better and that might help motivate him as well um

00:43:59.460 in saying those things you're saying you're answering that question who's on my team mom's on your team

00:44:06.260 mom's on your team she wants you to succeed so um and then you can say you know i noticed you just you

00:44:12.820 love sports let's see if we can um you know revolve everything you're trying to learn um and what

00:44:21.780 needs to be accomplished learning how to read and write and do basic math let's do it through sports

00:44:26.420 and figure it out together you know i think that would be it would be a mission it would be a team

00:44:32.820 thing um you're also saying to to a certain degree you you are on his team but you're also in charge and

00:44:39.780 now you have a mission so you know i think that would be a and that's the beauty of homeschooling

00:44:44.660 you have the freedom to do that yeah very good advice um how will moms who have boys with special

00:44:55.780 needs benefit from reading this book well you know boys are boys whether they have special needs or not

00:45:03.940 um we have a son who is on the spectrum and i have found that his needs are essentially very similar

00:45:14.740 to his brothers but my approach has had to be different with him so you know i think just

00:45:22.500 remembering that our boys might need to experience building and protecting and providing and conquering in

00:45:29.220 different ways um and those ways may be smaller compared to the average child or different but

00:45:36.100 they are no less meaningful they need to be meaningful to your son and the other thing i think we really

00:45:43.460 need to to bear in mind because they are boys and have the same needs is that they need to know

00:45:51.300 that they are an asset especially when they realize as many of them do that there there's some

00:45:57.380 differences there are some uniquenesses to the way their brains work my son and i talk about this

00:46:04.100 frequently that you know god has wired him and put him together and for a very specific plan and

00:46:11.380 purpose so there's no mistake here there's no um i don't know how to how to say it it's not that he's

00:46:18.580 less than or that he and certainly not that he's a liability um that so we want to communicate to

00:46:26.020 them that they are an asset in all the ways that they are an asset even if it's small ways and so

00:46:32.020 um i actually have a section in my book where i talk about this but again we go back to the fact

00:46:37.460 that boys are boys whether they have special needs or not um i did a podcast episode on getting our

00:46:42.900 special needs boys outside and it was just a fabulous conversation with a friend of mine who does this um

00:46:49.540 um and and and the importance of it and how to do it in a way that um because it can be kind of scary

00:46:56.980 for those of us who have uh kids with special needs because there are just there are all kinds of

00:47:02.020 variables in the equation that might not otherwise be there but there's so much encouragement in that

00:47:07.140 episode to um in how to do it and and then just to do it and why it's important in raising boys to

00:47:15.380 men you encourage moms to remain teachable why do you think this is especially important for moms of

00:47:22.820 boys well i think because we do end up in likely in more scenarios where we're embarrassed where we are

00:47:34.260 looking at our boys and wondering what in the world you know and sometimes we also end up in

00:47:41.700 scenarios like i found found myself in several years ago when our our youngest was about five

00:47:48.980 years old and we had our kids in church with us and he was i noticed he was especially wiggly that day

00:47:56.020 but didn't think he was being terribly disruptive you know and um church ended and i and i stood up and i

00:48:04.020 turned around and i had this woman in my face just almost yelling at me telling me that i needed to

00:48:13.460 get my son under control and i truly i mean i have high standards for our kids and i didn't feel like

00:48:19.540 he was really out of line but she had a she really took issue and it was it was it was like i got hit by a

00:48:28.020 bus i was so i don't even remember how i responded i i didn't you know i didn't strike back or be

00:48:36.900 you know i wasn't angry towards her i was just completely flabbergasted and almost paralyzed

00:48:41.860 got in the car and i was i you know had a good cry and i was telling my husband about it

00:48:46.500 and i was praying about it and the thought occurred to me and this hasn't always occurred to me but

00:48:52.100 um it did in this situation to just ask myself it was like it was like god was saying dorinda

00:49:00.420 was there anything true in what she said even though it was this was a really ugly package look for

00:49:07.860 the potential gift here and i had to admit i probably hadn't been quite as you know disciplined

00:49:15.220 with our youngest because he's on the spectrum and because he was the youngest and just a lot of

00:49:19.620 different reasons you all can probably relate the youngest you get older and you get tired also

00:49:24.340 and you've got all these other kids and so i probably needed to just be a little more diligent

00:49:28.500 with him and that was my takeaway and there was this peace that came over me and just this thankfulness

00:49:35.620 for that tiny little gift that the lord had given me and i could forget about the rest and so i think

00:49:40.260 it's moms of boys we tend to be mama bears and that can be a really good thing it has its place

00:49:48.580 but sometimes we also need to recognize that maybe our boys do need a little bit of

00:49:55.700 tweaking or a little bit of extra work on some character and be open to hearing that message even

00:50:03.620 if it comes in uh you know like i said in in in an ugly package because we want to make sure that we

00:50:09.860 are doing right by our boys ultimately in the big picture of things that's really really good

00:50:16.260 i learned from homeschooling my kids how teachable i had to become um so you become teachable first

00:50:24.020 of all when you become a parent and then when you add the whole thing of homeschooling you you learn

00:50:29.060 so much about yourself and what you still need to learn and being teachable and being open

00:50:32.660 um is very helpful absolutely yeah before we um wrap up here i do want to address a question in the chat

00:50:42.820 and you do talk about it in your book about screen time um if you scroll back i don't know if you want

00:50:48.820 to look at the question but what is your take on allowing screens in the tweener stage so ages 10 to 12

00:50:55.300 do screens and video games take away from work ethic in the homeschool and what have you noticed did you

00:51:02.500 even allow video games so we avoided screens as long as possible and we did not have a video gaming system

00:51:11.220 in our home until my husband decided it was time and i was still dragging my feet but he said i think we

00:51:19.140 should do this and um you know it's better for our boys to learn how to manage this under our roof than

00:51:25.380 you know when they're adults and they've been you know they're just on their own so um i i went with

00:51:31.780 it and it did require a lot of oversight on my part and it was sometimes exhausting but we we limited

00:51:38.580 their game time to 30 minutes a day and whether or not screens and videos take away from work ethic

00:51:46.420 in the home school is really up to you as the parent so what i mean by that is when you recognize

00:51:53.460 that it is starting to do that it is your job to stop that so one of the things that we used to do

00:51:59.540 is periodically we would take a sabbath we would take a break from screens even though they technically

00:52:05.060 had 30 minutes a day each i would just usually it happened when i felt like it was getting to be a

00:52:12.900 lot to manage there was some stepping a little bit of stepping over boundaries and you know so

00:52:17.780 at that point there were four of them who could game and and be on screens and so um so i would

00:52:24.260 when i found myself just sort of overwhelmed by it and just i just took that as a signal from the

00:52:28.740 lord that it was time to maybe take a break so i would tell them okay you guys you haven't done

00:52:33.940 anything wrong um but and sometimes they had sometimes it's like you guys have been pressing the

00:52:39.380 limits on this for several days now so we're going to take a break so it could be a consequence but

00:52:44.740 also there are times i just said we just need a break from this and immediately their response to

00:52:51.380 that told me so much about how tied they were to those video games whether those video games had become

00:52:58.820 a god to them they had become more important than anything else that they were willing to maybe be

00:53:03.700 very disrespectful to me throw a fit um get angry um you know and initially i expect the response to

00:53:12.660 be negative but if they dialed it back in really quickly then i knew okay this is good we're taking

00:53:18.900 a break but i can see that you know they've they're able to keep that under control their responses to

00:53:25.220 not being able to play will tell you a lot about where their heart is with it so in terms of how it takes

00:53:32.820 away from the work ethic in the homeschool i would say work comes first if you're not getting your work

00:53:39.300 done first the morning chores the early afternoon chores whatever whatever whenever you have chores

00:53:45.460 um then that gets that's a privilege you lose because being able to game was a privilege it wasn't a

00:53:52.500 right and so um it it worked well as a um as a reward there were certain times i said you know what

00:54:00.100 you did such a good job today i'm gonna give you 15 minutes extra so it gave me a little more of a

00:54:04.740 reward consequence system that actually mattered to them it was currency it was their currency um

00:54:12.260 and i tried not to overuse it but um but then also i had it there to say you know what you have not

00:54:18.260 actually been very responsible this week you've i've had to warn you i've had to remind you to do your

00:54:24.820 chores and so um you're gonna have to skip gaming today you know and then again you'll get to see

00:54:30.100 the response to it it won't be positive but then the more intense the response the more days i i i

00:54:37.860 made him take off so that is completely in your court parents to navigate that to make that decision

00:54:46.900 and to be watching for the negative repercussions on that that's good um we've only got time for one

00:54:56.980 more question and then there's going to be a couple closing comments here um when you homeschooled your

00:55:04.420 kids did you have to work full-time from home as well um so you could actually answer that personally and

00:55:11.780 then i have some thoughts on that as well um they're just asking if i worked full-time yeah

00:55:20.500 i guess yeah no i had eight children in 13 years that was a full-time more than a full-time job

00:55:27.860 so yes i worked but i did not work away from home and i've had parents ask me you know when i wrote the

00:55:34.260 four-hour school day one of the things that my literary agent wanted me to do was to you know speak to

00:55:39.620 the parent who works part-time speak to the parents who work full-time and how they can homeschool and

00:55:45.460 work full-time and i said i don't think i can do that and and the reason is and and there could be

00:55:51.940 exceptions to this but i think as a rule we have 24 hours in a day and and the whole to me the driving

00:56:03.620 force behind homeschooling is is to be present to be there with my children to disciple them to train

00:56:10.580 them i can't do that if i'm gone and so i will say my husband and i gave up a lot of conveniences we

00:56:19.140 gave up an extra car we drove one car for a really long time and he worked outside the home three days

00:56:24.980 a week and i had little kids i couldn't go anywhere but we both looked at each other and said

00:56:30.260 this is worth it we want to homeschool we're in this for the long haul we are committed

00:56:35.940 to this so we're going to figure it out that season didn't last a really long time

00:56:41.460 but i had to be willing to do that i had to be willing to make sacrifices in order to homeschool

00:56:47.300 our kids and and i can't tell someone else what to do and i can't tell them that it's absolutely

00:56:52.180 impossible to work full-time and homeschool your kids because maybe you have a situation where you have

00:56:56.420 a good support parents who are willing to watch the kids and pull off some of the homeschooling

00:57:02.100 and you're on the same page that's a possibility but i think if if that's not the case um you know

00:57:08.580 it might be something where you need to step back and reevaluate um your life your your finances and

00:57:14.900 all of that and and decide if there's anything you could cut back on in order to be able to work

00:57:21.780 less and be at home more in order to homeschool your kids because i don't know i one of the

00:57:26.980 reasons that my husband and i were so committed to our family and i can tell you we have a very strong

00:57:33.940 cohesive family and it's not a perfect family but we all have really good relationships with each other

00:57:41.300 there's not bitterness and resentment between any of us because we worked on that along the way day in

00:57:46.980 day out as we lived our lives together that doesn't just happen you have to invest you have to be

00:57:52.100 present you have to be there to do that and um one of the reasons we were so committed to that in

00:57:57.300 homeschooling is because when we were young and first started having children we made a point of asking

00:58:02.500 a bunch of older people their thoughts on having children their work their careers whether they had

00:58:10.180 some of them had some of them had very successful businesses they they you know owned half of downtown

00:58:15.300 or whatever every single one of them said my only regret is not spending time more time with my family

00:58:23.140 or not having more kids that was their biggest regret they had they had met all the what people would

00:58:30.260 say all the the the um goals for success and yet that is what they longed for and so at the end of

00:58:38.420 the day we don't want to have regrets we don't want to look back and say gosh i sacrificed this for

00:58:44.020 that and i wished i hadn't so i encourage you to to maybe take take a step back and um and and think that

00:58:51.620 through no very true i i have heard that as well people commenting their regrets and same ones and um

00:59:02.900 and i have to say too in the earliest years we were on one vehicle and i was home bound a lot or i would

00:59:10.900 drive my husband to work he didn't live too far away so i had the car until we were able to afford

00:59:16.420 a second vehicle later when the kids were older um and we made that choice too like this is really important

00:59:24.580 um one of the things we did regarding employment is uh we did start a couple home businesses

00:59:32.900 and so because my husband was a shift worker when he worked um the eight to eight shift 8 pm to 8 am

00:59:41.940 and the kids were in bed that's when i went down to the office and i would i could work at my own pace

00:59:48.100 um i was the office manager so i could work at my own pace um as long as i did everything in the

00:59:54.980 month it didn't matter as long as i got it done in every month i was in a good place so if you're

01:00:00.340 creative and courageous to think outside the box and you need extra income that doesn't require you to

01:00:06.500 leave your family so my kids would be in bed and then i'd be working i two hours tonight there's

01:00:13.060 there's a little window there to make things happen yeah and there's also this whole idea

01:00:18.420 of a family business starting a family business with you can involve the kids in if they're you

01:00:23.140 know especially not necessarily when they're little but when they get a little bit older even you know

01:00:27.140 eight nine ten they can be helpful and learn so much it can be a way one of the ways that we

01:00:33.140 homeschool our kids and educate them is through our home business so that's another and with the internet

01:00:38.180 and in all that we have at our fingertips um i really i feel like the sky's the limit it's just

01:00:43.540 deciding what's going to work for your family yeah totally and that's exactly what uh we did so on my

01:00:50.260 husband's days off after lunch he'd take the kids down to the work property he'd give them a job and they

01:00:58.020 learned how to work side by side with him and he gave me a break and they love being outside with their

01:01:03.860 dad it's great yeah so we're gonna wrap up here um durenda where can moms connect with you and find

01:01:12.180 your book well you can find my book on amazon um just a little side note that's my grandson on the front

01:01:19.460 okay that's my grandson and then his daddy is on the back if you flip it over i think you have that

01:01:26.740 one yes that's that's that's uh that's our son luke okay and then his son sully and so we just thought

01:01:35.460 it would be a really awesome thing to have the little boy on the front so because you're raising

01:01:40.100 boys to men and then have a man our son on the back so um it was just a fun it was a it was neat how

01:01:46.820 the lord brought it together but yeah you can find the book on amazon um and you can find all my

01:01:52.020 books on amazon and then you can find me at the durenda wilson podcast i really encourage you to go

01:01:57.300 over there i have over 500 episodes and if you go to the podcast page on my website um there's a search

01:02:04.100 bar at the top you put in any keyword and episodes will come up it is just a massive amount of mentoring

01:02:11.220 that is really what i'm doing over there is is mentoring moms and so i encourage you to go there

01:02:16.660 and then of course i have a website uh durendawilson.com yeah i just put your website in there um

01:02:24.580 and the podcast is on the website you can listen from there or you can listen from spotify itunes

01:02:30.100 pretty much any platform um yeah instagram you mentioned facebook as well yeah yeah and uh for those

01:02:38.740 of you who came in later on um these are the other books that uh you had heard homeschooler and

01:02:46.340 durenda had talked about that briefly um i did a webinar with durenda last august it's on our website

01:02:52.660 the four hour school day if you wanted to pick up that book and uh unhurried grace for a homeschool

01:03:00.660 mom's heart yes or mom's heart yeah it's a devotional for home yeah all moms thank you durenda

01:03:08.740 for spending time with us and having me yeah you are full of encouragement and inspiration you've

01:03:17.140 definitely lived the journey and i can tell by your your deep thoughts and reflections on how to

01:03:24.980 be a homeschool mom and and raise our little boys to be um just great men and warriors and it's just

01:03:32.900 beautiful so on that great note thank you durenda and uh we're gonna say goodbye to everybody and uh

01:03:41.460 see you in may bye

01:03:53.780 you

Action4Canada - April 29, 2024

Action4Canada Homeschool Webinar： Raising Boys to Men - April 23, 2024

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