Action4Canada - Are Homeschoolers Socialized？ – What Does the Research Say？

00:00:00.000 it's good to have you here and we have a great guest uh david hunt from the aristotle foundation

00:00:13.720 i wasn't able to get him for the morning here live but i did a pre-record with him so i'm

00:00:20.820 going to go ahead and play that and then come back live at the end um to have any closing comments

00:00:29.280 so with that i will proceed and get that rolling here hello folks and canadians and i just want to

00:00:40.680 introduce to you here david hunt he's our guest speaker today and he is the research director

00:00:47.240 for the aristotle foundation for public policy in canada david has deep and wide experience

00:00:53.320 including as an entrepreneur business consultant and as a director of education programs david has

00:01:00.780 published over one dozen peer-reviewed research studies written dozens of columns posted multiple

00:01:07.340 forums on education given dozens of speeches on education related topics including on the benefits

00:01:15.160 of school choice and has been widely interviewed by the media over the past decade three of david's

00:01:22.400 research papers have been submitted as evidence and or referenced by experts in court or court submissions

00:01:29.780 including to the supreme court of canada david also teaches occasional courses at the malville school

00:01:36.780 of business at kwantland polytechnic university david holds a master of public policy from simon fraser

00:01:44.380 university and a bachelor of business administration with distinction from kwantland polytechnic university

00:01:52.080 where he was the dean's medal recipient david shepard's all aristotle foundation research from the idea

00:01:59.980 stage to publication born and raised in british columbia david and his wife and children live in metro

00:02:07.040 vancouver vancouver when not at the beach david and his family regularly hike and ski in beautiful

00:02:13.580 british columbia welcome david hunt tell us a little bit about the aristotle foundation and your role there

00:02:22.380 yeah thanks thanks for having me uh doris it's uh quite quite the intro um yeah so the aristotle foundation

00:02:29.300 it's it's a brand new think tank uh based out of calgary although i'm still in vancouver

00:02:34.040 the think tank is based in calgary and and if i could back up for two seconds just what what is a

00:02:40.440 think tank because i find most people you know nine out of ten people don't know what a think tank is

00:02:45.640 uh so so where where think tank operates is at the intersection or if you're english at the roundabout

00:02:52.400 of government policy academic research and then public narrative so on on a variety of issues you what

00:03:02.120 you're you're attempting to do as a think tank whatever the think tank is is you're trying to

00:03:06.380 take the best research out there to move the needle on public policy and and very often the theory of

00:03:12.400 change around that is to move the needle on on public conversations you want to get media coverage

00:03:16.800 on your studies and get your stuff out into the public so aristotle what why why this thing think tank

00:03:24.380 was founded is that there's so many issues that other think tanks aren't diving into and so take

00:03:30.100 take topics like dei systemic racism cancel culture uh attacks on our founding and history uh the attack

00:03:37.280 on free expression and free inquiry uh assaults on our shared humanity identity politics mob behavior all

00:03:44.480 that sort of stuff and of course the education system and it's uh dare i say toxic wellspring of

00:03:50.840 anti-individual illiberal and anti-reality ideas so where's the research to push back on all of that

00:03:57.860 and research that's public policy oriented um to again move the public conversation so that

00:04:03.720 governments regardless of the political party like whoever's in power uh to hold them to account say

00:04:08.940 no no here's the the research if you actually want to put push back on racism you actually want a

00:04:14.340 society where every person is respected well dei is not the way to go and the language around 0.60

00:04:19.940 systemic racism like canada is not a systemically racist country and here's the evidence that that's not

00:04:24.980 the case so it's those kind of issues a lot of spicy stuff uh but we're we're doing solid solid

00:04:31.460 research where uh my intent is that it's always bulletproof where where it's irrefutable here's

00:04:36.860 the evidence and let's let's let's combat anti-reality ideas in the public square wow you're a busy guy

00:04:44.980 those are really really hot topics and uh very very interesting um so as we roll into the survey um

00:04:52.980 tell us about how the survey came to get started um and uh show us everything you know about it

00:04:59.060 sure yeah so so the the the research i'll i'll present today is from the previous think tank that

00:05:06.260 i was at until quite recently uh excellent excellent organization called cardis and so so the the research

00:05:13.700 i'll jump into is called the cardis education survey and i'll i'll pull from a few other um studies

00:05:20.500 that that um build off of that or or feed into that um and and what the cardis education survey looks at

00:05:28.660 uh is is the graduate outcomes of various different types of schooling so whether it's uh of course

00:05:36.340 public school uh whether it's independent or private school um or various types of religious schooling or

00:05:43.380 homeschooling and and in terms of what are those graduate outcomes moving beyond just simply academic

00:05:48.900 outcomes because you know we we you have you have pretty good data on that from government sources

00:05:54.260 and from standardized tests and whatnot uh but looking at other outcomes such as citizenship cultural uh

00:06:00.580 civic formation and and civic engagement um so so how are different forms of education shaping culture

00:06:08.020 um also looking at family formation uh which which graduates are the most likely to be married and have kids

00:06:16.180 that that that matters for a society big time uh also looking at religion and and for very

00:06:24.100 specifically something like christian schooling the motivations for parents when it comes to christian

00:06:29.060 schooling uh typically what's driving that decision is is reinforcement of the faith they want their kids

00:06:35.620 raised in the faith uh so then it's a very valid question is do christian schools produce christian

00:06:42.820 graduates uh in terms of who they become as adults 10 20 years after the fact so those kind of questions

00:06:48.180 um which of course no government survey would ever dive into that's where the cards cardist education

00:06:54.740 survey adds a lot of value it's it's highly credible work you've got scholars uh that don't believe in anything

00:07:00.740 we believe in that will cite uh this work simply because there's nothing else like it out there and the methodology is sound

00:07:06.340 so you know scholars at harvard university for example citing it um and and and to put it in context

00:07:14.100 so i think the sample size this is before this last year so there's currently uh uh an addition that's

00:07:19.380 about to come out brand new data should be coming out later this year early 2025 um but before that the

00:07:26.340 sample size was 18,001 respondents so so 18,000 respondents in canada the united states and australia

00:07:34.580 and this is a representative uh reliable uh you know randomly selected uh so yeah and of course

00:07:41.460 the methodology you want to dive into that also it's available and and and this is all publicly

00:07:46.180 available you can get it online that's awesome um i've i've seen your survey before i've watched you

00:07:56.420 present and uh it's always interesting and uh really noticeable how well homeschoolers are doing but um

00:08:06.340 would you take some time now to show us the actual survey and comment on each sort of category sure sure

00:08:14.900 yeah yes let's let's let's let's jump in let me share my screen uh just two seconds here

00:08:25.620 sure

00:08:28.100 here we go and what i'll do so let me click uh present and then swap the presenter view so that hopefully

00:08:40.260 uh is what you're seeing uh doris um who has the biggest influence okay perfect who has the biggest

00:08:48.260 influence on students so i always like to so if we could back up a tiny bit i always like to

00:08:52.900 start here just put everything in context so a question i would ask any audience is who has the

00:08:59.540 biggest influence on students and of course solicit whatever the audience response is and sometimes you

00:09:05.060 get a variety of answers but usually audiences get it right and of course homeschool audiences definitely

00:09:09.220 always get it right and it's mom and dad it's parents parents definitely have the biggest impact

00:09:13.300 on students and if you you jump into there's quite a bit of literature on this but one of the most

00:09:18.660 robust studies looks at gigantic data set of hundreds of thousands of students across

00:09:23.540 dozens of countries and and this is an economist writing this and economists of course always want to

00:09:29.220 find a hard metric a proxy to be able to measure um whatever it is they're they're they're they're

00:09:35.700 they're after so in terms of predicting academic outcomes what what what proxy is the best measure

00:09:42.820 of that and they found books in the home was almost a perfect predictor of uh how how well the student

00:09:51.220 would perform in terms of who's in the top quintile of the class who's in the bottom quintile of the

00:09:55.940 class so a household that has 200 or more books it's almost a perfect perfect predictor that uh that

00:10:02.180 student will be in the top quintile of the class a household that is fewer than 10 books again almost

00:10:06.740 a perfect predictor that student will be in the bottom quintile of the class and of course an

00:10:10.660 economist is not going to get into the qualitative interpretation of that and why might that be but

00:10:15.940 i think you and i uh can use a bit of intuition intuition and put it together that a home that's

00:10:20.980 filled with books has a certain atmosphere whether there is learning is in the air so to speak and and

00:10:27.940 there's a culture of learning there's a culture of inquiry uh and it's very likely mom and dad are

00:10:32.660 reading uh to the kids and all that has has a profound impact uh on students so so that's ground

00:10:39.860 zero for all of this is mom and dad are the most important ingredient yes by nature they are the first

00:10:45.460 educators of their kids uh but also even as kids grow beyond say three four five years old mom and dad still

00:10:52.740 are the key determinant the key variable in terms of of the success the academic success of young

00:10:59.540 people so a study that uh initially opened the door for me at cartis was a study around who chooses

00:11:05.940 independent schools and why and although this isn't related to homeschooling it's it's a good segue

00:11:11.540 in that the reason parents are choosing independent schools and thus choosing to not go to put their kids

00:11:18.020 in public school is that they're looking for a supportive nurturing environment looking for a safe

00:11:21.860 school they're looking for something that develops character and this we find with the homeschool

00:11:25.860 communities often very similar of course the main thing they're looking if they're most who are in

00:11:31.300 independent schools are religious families so they're going to a christian school or a jewish

00:11:35.060 school or islamic school why to reinforce the faith so again as i just mentioned the cartis

00:11:39.860 education survey is all about well what happens to those kids as adults if they go to the christian

00:11:45.700 school do they actually become christians as adults and of course there have been over 40

00:11:49.540 cartis education survey studies all this is available online so let's jump in to the most

00:11:54.260 recent canadian data so if we ask uh the the um so start with the religious questions and how we'll

00:12:03.380 present this this this is a little bit academic ease so i'll try to break it down the red line that you

00:12:12.100 see where the zero is uh on on the axis that's your benchmark that's public school grads or those

00:12:19.460 those who either graduated from public school or did the overwhelming majority of their schooling

00:12:24.100 at public school who are they as 24 to 39 year olds so so so roughly six to whatever 22 years out of

00:12:33.860 high school who are they as adults who do they become and so the benchmark public schoolers and so with all the

00:12:40.580 the other categories whether it's your separate catholic schools your independent catholic schools

00:12:44.660 and of course that's in alberta saskatchewan ontario uh here here in bc you only have the independent

00:12:49.140 catholic schools whether it's your non-religious private schools which tend to be either specialty

00:12:54.340 schools like montessori or or or or stem or or special ed or or they may be elite top tier schools

00:13:01.620 that's your non-religious category that keeps scrolling down you see evangelical and this can be a contentious

00:13:06.500 label i know simply because i was giving a presentation of what was it it was in edmonton i

00:13:11.060 was presenting to um uh whatever this audience was and the pastor who's hosting the presentation comes

00:13:18.260 up to me afterwards says well where are we in the data i said well are you evangelical says no no we're

00:13:24.100 protestant so like oh okay i'm splitting hairs here so so in previous studies the label was protestant

00:13:32.180 for whatever reason didn't resonate so we changed it to evangelical um yeah uh there isn't a perfect

00:13:39.140 label so all of that is under that basket and again it's those who went to uh you know your your

00:13:43.940 your your christian schools and regent christian academy or surrey christian vancouver christian

00:13:47.940 school those kind of schools right so those who are graduated from there or did their overwhelming

00:13:51.860 majority of schooling there and then the bottom two categories which are the the most relevant for this

00:13:57.220 uh podcast or this webinar are homeschool uh religious homeschoolers and then what you see

00:14:04.420 right below that are our non-religious uh homeschoolers so delineating between between those two

00:14:11.780 and then in terms of these numbers in the bottom so we have our benchmark but then the if you see a

00:14:17.300 one that is a standard deviation so this is this is fancy stats terms if if we think of a normal

00:14:25.620 distribution so so a bell curve where typically if you take any random sample of of a large

00:14:33.140 amount of people uh most people whatever it is we're exploring whatever it is we're researching

00:14:38.260 most of them will cluster around the middle so so whether it's the mean the median or the mode whatever

00:14:43.540 it is we're we're that that we're referring to as our average or our middle point so whatever

00:14:49.700 middleness is most will cluster around us so typically in a normal distribution roughly

00:14:55.300 two-thirds of people are are somewhere with are within one standard deviation of the middle either

00:15:01.620 other um below or above average within one standard deviation so why that's important is because once

00:15:09.460 a data point moves beyond a standard deviation once you move beyond that initial big hump

00:15:15.060 that's what you call a statistically significant finding where where we're full deviation away from

00:15:20.980 the middle point so so you're you're outside of the average that big hub so that means once you get

00:15:27.620 to two standard deviations you're moving way beyond that and if you're at three standard deviations you're in

00:15:33.300 the far tails of those data points so you you are um just a sliver of of the population because of course

00:15:41.380 this this is based on uh like if you think of it as a pie chart this is this is out of a hole so wherever

00:15:47.060 you see homeschoolers so for example as an adult between the age of 24 to 39 when you have to make

00:15:54.260 moral decisions do you turn to god or scripture in order to make that moral decision so we have a raw

00:16:02.420 score here which is the blue dot and then you have i think it's 38 or 39 variables we controlled for

00:16:08.740 to to isolate for the school sector effect because of course as a good social scientist what you're

00:16:13.940 trying to do is is measure uh does this the schooling in and of itself so homeschool does

00:16:21.700 the fact that you homeschool does that in and of itself irrespective of the family you're a part of

00:16:26.980 the church you go to the neighborhood you're in does homeschooling in and of itself make the difference

00:16:33.380 uh what what what what is there a homeschool effect so what you see here uh is if you just

00:16:40.180 have the raw score you're at two and a half almost three standard deviations from the mean

00:16:45.140 and even after all controls you're at almost two standard deviations so the likelihood if you're a

00:16:52.900 religious homeschool family the likelihood that your kids as adults will turn to god when they have

00:16:58.100 to make a moral decision is almost two standard deviations beyond the public school

00:17:03.300 grad who comes from the exact same background as your kids goes to the same church lives in the

00:17:08.020 same neighborhood because again we've controlled for all those factors so that's the homeschool

00:17:12.740 difference so now if we look at the confidence in terms of religion there's a decimal here that's

00:17:17.220 hard to see so you don't have a standard deviation here so whatever you're seeing that this is just

00:17:21.220 noise this is not statistically significant it could be anomalous so now let's move on to were you

00:17:26.500 prepared uh for vital religious or spiritual life as an adult and again you're you're at the raw

00:17:32.420 score is a full standard deviation with controls it's a bit below that but still compared to all

00:17:38.100 other school categories homeschoolers religious homeschoolers are the most likely to feel as adults

00:17:44.340 they were prepared um for critical important religious and spiritual life which again that's huge for me as

00:17:51.860 a homeschool parent uh who wants to raise my kids to love the lord that's one of the most important

00:17:56.980 things i mean it's not it is the most important thing okay um moving on obligation to regularly

00:18:02.020 practice spiritual disciplines such as prayer or reading the scriptures look at that a full standard

00:18:08.340 deviation after controls for the religious homeschoolers now again if you eliminate controls

00:18:15.780 and you include family and and all the other factors you're you're beyond two standard deviations so

00:18:22.020 there's more going on than just homeschooling but the homeschool effect in and of itself gives you a full

00:18:25.780 standard deviation and they're the most likely as as adults to to be uh uh praying and reading

00:18:31.220 the scripture regularly okay are you have an obligation to the church again a full standard

00:18:35.620 deviation and the most likely of any school type um what about church attendance again they're the

00:18:41.220 most likely as adults and if you isolate for all effects the only one so so all all the homeschoolers

00:18:47.460 you have a full statistically significant difference there and then also your independent catholic

00:18:52.340 schoolers but the most likely are again your your religious homeschoolers so do you have an obligation

00:18:57.860 to accept the authority of your church leadership if there is any again you've got a full standard

00:19:03.540 deviation do you have an obligation to obey the church or church authority or your pastors and whatnot

00:19:08.980 again a full standard deviation after controls what about tithing do you do is is there an obligation to

00:19:17.060 tithe again not quite a standard deviation but almost uh but the more important question do you actually

00:19:22.820 tithe oh there uh use a bit of work um and and and the effect that is there clearly is more um it's

00:19:29.860 it's another factor not not homeschooling maybe it's family background of the church q2 or whatnot

00:19:34.500 although very interesting that those who were raised i've never noticed this before those who were raised

00:19:39.460 in in a non-religious homeschool environment if they are adults who who who are are um

00:19:47.300 i'm assuming christian beyond christians maybe maybe jews also tithe i don't know if other religions

00:19:51.780 tithe uh we'd have to get into the data in terms but i'm assuming if you respond to regularly donate 10

00:19:57.060 of your income i'm assuming you're a christian uh but very interesting because they would have not

00:20:01.060 been christians growing up but they've chosen to become a christian as an adult so that's actually

00:20:04.980 very interesting um but still you see you see that that homeschool effect there um that's that's

00:20:10.580 interesting sorry uh tangent there okay in terms of volunteering volunteer hours again this is as

00:20:16.580 adults so not when they were homeschooling but as adults who who volunteers in their congregations

00:20:22.260 who volunteers in their church look at that your home religious homeschoolers uh again not a full

00:20:27.780 standard deviation after controls but before controls almost two standard deviations that's huge

00:20:32.660 okay in terms of playing a leadership role in those volunteer activities again standard deviation

00:20:38.260 before um controls with controls but half the standard deviation uh your total activity in terms of

00:20:45.140 congregational activity no difference uh between the public schoolers that's interesting uh and then

00:20:50.820 in terms of missions and social service trips that's interesting too that as adults the least

00:20:55.860 likely are actually the homeschool or religious which part of me wonders and this is me just speculating here

00:21:01.060 but i wonder if it's because the homeschooler homeschool grads see their own uh country as their mission

00:21:09.140 field and i think presently in canada i think canada is perhaps the most needy mission field in the

00:21:14.340 entire world at the moment spiritually um and i would speculate uh again i could be totally wrong

00:21:19.460 but i would speculate that's actually what's going on here is when you're raised in a homeschool

00:21:22.500 environment uh when you become an adult and again i know so many homeschoolers who are now adults

00:21:27.460 and yeah they're they're very aware that the world they live in here in canada is a mission field

00:21:32.100 okay i try to strengthen my relationship with god as an adult again who's the most likely to agree

00:21:36.900 with that statement the religious homeschool grads as an adult at some point did you turn to god

00:21:44.660 they're not the most likely to to say that um but uh there's there's almost a statistically

00:21:50.660 significant effect the most likely for that guy are the evangelical grads okay do you witness share

00:21:56.820 your faith with friends and family they're not the most likely to agree with that statement but

00:22:01.060 they're right behind the independent catholic schoolers um do you wouldn't share your faith

00:22:05.460 with acquaintances or strangers uh again more likely than public schoolers not the most likely and again

00:22:11.780 not statistically significant but there seems to be some effect there okay as adults do you attend a

00:22:17.220 small group for spiritual support discipleship prayer look at that full standard deviation uh do

00:22:23.220 you read the bible by yourself um um and and this is based on frequency so who's the most likely to do

00:22:30.820 this so let's let's just clarify that who as an adult is the most likely to read the scripture on their own

00:22:38.500 religious homeschool grads and you can see there was a clear homeschool effect well above standard

00:22:44.340 deviation that's crazy okay in terms of reading religious or spiritual literature beyond uh

00:22:49.540 scripture so in in addition to scripture uh again most likely are the homeschoolers religious

00:22:55.940 homeschoolers and and there's uh again a full standard deviation there and again i love seeing the

00:23:01.700 religious uh non-religious homeschoolers there because that means as adults they look at that they

00:23:06.980 weren't raised in a religious home but yet they were homeschooled and they've chosen to discover the

00:23:11.300 the bible for themselves that's awesome we're glad to see that and the likelihood there that's that's

00:23:16.100 a follow-up research that's follow-up research we need to do doris is how many hope schoolers that

00:23:20.820 were related were raised in non-religious homes are now walking with the lord that would be a cool study

00:23:25.460 yeah that's a really interesting thing yeah definitely yeah yeah i've never i hadn't noticed

00:23:30.740 that before till till this call because usually i i block because usually i'm presenting to christian

00:23:34.740 or uh or various religious audiences and so i usually block out that that bottom row but no

00:23:40.500 now we're looking at that okay god called the respondent to a particular line of work in the

00:23:45.940 view of the respondent so the adult answering the survey they believe god's called them to what they're

00:23:50.740 doing who's the most likely to agree with that statement again it's the religious homeschoolers wow

00:23:57.940 i have a job that fulfills my religious calling whatever that is again not this one's not

00:24:03.060 statistically significant but they're the most likely right there with the independent catholic

00:24:07.540 schoolers okay um they feel that their school experience or k-12 education prepared them for

00:24:15.140 relationships as adults that's what this question is asking who's the most likely to agree with that

00:24:19.860 religious homeschoolers so to the myth of socialization and that homeschoolers are not

00:24:26.580 properly socialized well i beg to differ uh because this again this is a representative sample

00:24:32.020 that no religious homeschoolers actually felt the most prepared for relationships as adults they

00:24:37.140 felt the most socialized now it's not the case for the non-religious homeschoolers and that is actually

00:24:41.860 interesting a quick tangent there if we look at the homeschool literature and and the the development of

00:24:48.580 the movement if we go back to the 1970s it was illegal almost everywhere to homeschool which is is crazy but

00:24:55.300 it was true so if it's illegal to homeschool homeschool and and the consequences jail time

00:25:01.060 for mom and dad and the kids be taken away the only people that are going to homeschool in the 1970s

00:25:05.700 are are radicals so whether that's radical christians or whether that's that's radical non-christians

00:25:11.940 it's those who have an extremely deep conviction and they they're like screw the law it's this law is

00:25:17.620 unjust i'm going to do what i'm going to do with my family so what's interesting here is that's that's in

00:25:21.460 the 70s moving into the 80s you still have these two wings of the homeschool movement those that are

00:25:26.580 are labeled quote-unquote religious fundamentalists and those then that are that are equally fundamentalist

00:25:32.980 but on the exact opposite side of the fence and very anti-religious and you have a whole movement

00:25:37.860 there that was about half the homeschool population through the 70s and 80s um and and so what's

00:25:42.660 interesting is those who are homeschoolers who are not religious historically have been deeply not

00:25:47.940 religious um and and and capital l left in terms of what what you would think of in terms of left

00:25:53.620 leftism and i know that term's loaded and wokeism and whatnot but that without getting to the weeds of

00:25:59.220 of defining those terms roughly speaking those would be fairly accurate labels uh to the extreme of about

00:26:05.860 half the homeschool cohorts from the 70s 70s 80s starting into the 90s but it's once homeschooling is

00:26:11.780 legal virtually everywhere that's where it's now no longer culturally taboo so you have

00:26:18.100 more quote-unquote moderate parents who are now willing to homeschool and there isn't the stigma

00:26:22.660 around it so so you don't have that kind of polarization so in terms of a non-religious

00:26:28.260 homeschooler feeling they're not prepared for relationships that could feed into that socialization

00:26:34.580 dynamic in the sense of that um the these are back to the earth people um uh radical hippie movement

00:26:42.660 that sort of stuff so there is there is some literature there there is something there to

00:26:46.980 those arguments but but but but but but but for those of us who do homeschool in the 21st century in the

00:26:55.620 year 2024 we are well aware uh that our kids are definitely the most socialized because the

00:27:02.740 interactions they have on a daily basis okay they go to the grocery store with you um they're they're

00:27:07.380 they're they're out and about they're in the real world at a very young age but not off on their own

00:27:12.820 vulnerable and alone no with with mom and dad with their siblings and and they live in the real world

00:27:18.820 in a way that kids that sit in a classroom with other kids the exact same ages as them same kids

00:27:24.260 every single day who are from the same neighborhood as them like when when in your life are you ever going

00:27:29.940 to be in the same room again where everyone is the exact same age as you from the same neighborhood as

00:27:34.820 you that's not the real world you'll never see that in the job you'll never see that on the job

00:27:38.740 you'll never see that church you'll never see that anywhere ever again so those at public school are in

00:27:43.620 a genuine artificial bubble it's it's this it's this fake reality uh and as a result they're not that

00:27:49.940 well socialized whereas a homeschooler in an environment where it's illegal to homeschool those social all

00:27:56.740 all those socialization um tropes they go back to the days of when it was illegal which is frankly

00:28:01.780 a long time ago so i just want to highlight that here where again the religious homeschoolers the

00:28:07.060 most socialized of kids the non-religious homeschool non-religious homeschoolers as adults

00:28:12.900 looking back there may be some legacy of those old days here although i think that's very much in

00:28:18.340 the past i want to add a couple of thoughts here um the when you think about a child who's in a

00:28:25.220 a structured classroom all day long um when they come home it might be 3 30 approximately if they

00:28:34.740 have a sport after school or they come home and they're tired they're drained and now they're just

00:28:41.300 put a show on before supper um and then it's kind of like roll into the evening routine get them to bed

00:28:48.020 so they haven't really been out and about with a homeschool child they can do their formal

00:28:54.900 you know paperwork in the mornings two hours and then they have the rest of the day and they can go

00:28:59.620 out with mom or dad or or a relative or something and yeah like you said all those other points about

00:29:05.140 being out and about and meeting regular people who are regularly working and and and who are you

00:29:10.980 interacting with your child is interacting with people from all different walks of life when they're

00:29:15.780 out and about and every different age group yeah and that is the real world those of us who work for a

00:29:20.580 living we're always interacting with people who are a different age and a different background that's

00:29:25.220 right and i also wanted to add like they're prepared for relationships there um when a child 0.76

00:29:33.300 is grown up in a religious home there's a lot of conversation uh around um what god says about

00:29:41.460 marriage and um a lot of these families our children are around uh healthy families and healthy

00:29:50.820 marriage couples around them not everybody we know it's not perfect but they see it and they they like

00:29:57.380 what they see and they maybe they want that too but it's instructed in the home too like this is how

00:30:02.980 god's plan is you know when you become adult you get married not always but almost always

00:30:10.420 and uh so there's also that sort of all all the time that influence every day of being around um you know

00:30:19.700 what god says about the family and about marriage and so it's just natural for them i think to just

00:30:24.980 assume that that's what they're going to do one day yes and and it works the success sequence is what

00:30:30.500 it's called and and i i i paper that's coming out next week i i cite this and there's research done

00:30:37.700 both in canada and the united states uh looking at millennials who who finish high school get a full-time

00:30:44.100 job get married and have kids in that order there's an over 99 chance they will not live in poverty once

00:30:52.340 they're in their 30s wow so it's like and it doesn't matter what your background is color of

00:31:00.260 your skin anything else like if you if you have a basic education you're working full-time you're

00:31:07.220 married and with kids and you do it in that order you you you will be okay that's amazing

00:31:15.140 again just simply you do things god god's way you'll be well taken care of like

00:31:18.820 yeah yeah exactly but also the prepared for relationships one final comment there

00:31:24.580 if you're part of a religious community and you're going to church at least once a week on

00:31:28.740 sunday and whatever other involvement there is throughout the week there's there's a community

00:31:33.540 dynamic to that so so uh and and yeah and so yes yes there we we isolate for the the homeschool effect

00:31:41.780 here um but as a religious homeschooler even your homeschool experience is going to be different

00:31:47.300 because all that feeds back into homeschool so even in terms of our social science and trying

00:31:51.220 to parse things out and isolate for effects the reality is there is that you can't control for all

00:31:55.700 of that bleeding and and the reality is a homeschool a religious homeschool kid is going to be different

00:32:00.180 and in a very good way so number of close ties as an adult this one's unique in that the united

00:32:07.140 states data is very different um and this this is actually quite interesting i almost wonder if this is

00:32:12.660 anomalous because this is actually inconsistent with all of our other research this one finding in the

00:32:17.060 united states we asked respondents open-endedly write down the name of of your best friend and

00:32:22.020 however many best friends you have and there was i think a maximum of seven slots uh there were many

00:32:26.660 people public school grads that literally could not write down a single name they couldn't think of

00:32:30.580 anyone to to put in that that that that um open-ended question those the the religious homeschoolers

00:32:36.980 would fill all seven uh slots and then in a follow-up question we'd ask what what's the ethnicity of each of these

00:32:43.860 um uh uh best friends you have and it was the religious homeschoolers that were the most likely

00:32:50.340 to have a very close friend a best friend that's of a totally different color skin than them um so

00:32:56.020 that's also very very interesting around again the socialization question uh in terms of close ties and

00:33:02.100 who those close ties are uh so this this one uh the canadian data here on number of close ties um

00:33:08.740 seems to be um an anomaly uh from this sample okay likelihood of being married there's no difference

00:33:16.020 between the public and the religious homeschooler in terms of likelihood of being married that's not

00:33:21.060 the case for the christian school grads and i can uh i i'm an anecdote that confirms this this

00:33:26.980 empirical data i i went through christian school with my wife high school sweethearts uh married

00:33:32.660 married today and then in terms of your your marital status um difference between those who are married

00:33:39.220 and those who are divorced this one though is interesting that um there is uh seems like a very

00:33:46.180 modest homeschool effect for for the likelihood of of of of of being um married uh marital satisfaction no

00:33:55.940 difference and then ever divorced um yeah that's that's interesting in an in a negative negative um

00:34:03.060 no no no no no no no no no because okay i'm so used to presenting this to christian school audiences

00:34:09.940 okay the least likely to be divorced this is in the negative the least likely to be divorced

00:34:14.740 are the christian school grads and there there is a almost a full standard standard deviation there for

00:34:20.660 uh the school effect the second least likely to ever be divorced are your religious homeschool grads

00:34:27.380 so sorry for the confusion there a second ago but that is an important point now it's not at a full

00:34:32.260 standard deviation so it's not statistically significant so you have to take that with a grain

00:34:36.580 of salt um but there does seem to be at least a modest homeschool effect in terms of reducing the

00:34:42.980 likelihood of divorce as an adult okay the days as an adult the family eats a meal together this is

00:34:50.180 interesting it's actually the non-religious homeschool grads that are the most likely and by quite a quite

00:34:55.220 a margin the days a family prays together uh and again those who relate raised as non-religious

00:35:01.700 homeschoolers but are now religious wow uh and but of course the most likely are the religious homeschool

00:35:07.620 grads two standard deviations after controls that means like this is off the charts um much much much

00:35:16.980 much more likely than a public school grad as an adult to pray together as a family and once you

00:35:21.300 eliminate those controls is that three standard deviations so like wow wow wow okay days a family

00:35:28.980 talks about god together again almost two standard deviations after controls and the most likely

00:35:34.180 and then the family reading the bible together they're at a full standard deviation uh and

00:35:39.540 all those it's it's competitive with with with some of the others and then i think this is our last

00:35:44.260 one from this deck of uh from this data satisfaction with family life um no one's at a full standard

00:35:51.700 deviation but there is at least a greater like uh a greater likelihood than than a public school grad

00:35:58.980 uh but if we can keep going and look at it so it's also i to summarize all this the question

00:36:04.260 do graduate outcomes match parents motivations uh i i think we can say yes so the reason why a family

00:36:12.340 would homeschool a religious family the reason why a family would put their kid in a christian um

00:36:17.860 high school yes yes uh although imperfect and and there will be for sure anomalies and everyone can point

00:36:24.820 to an example of of of where stuff went wrong but in the aggregate on average speaking again

00:36:35.220 in terms of the whole population in terms of a full basket um yes um definitely the graduate

00:36:41.460 outcomes match parent motivations now let's look ever so quickly at the share of enrollment this

00:36:47.140 includes your independent schools and your homeschool community so those who are outside the public

00:36:51.540 system in bc it's the largest in the country at over 14 percent that's important and that is is why so

00:36:59.860 the the the ndp government in bc in their campaign platform of if i'm not mistaken of a 105 09 in 2013 and

00:37:07.220 this is from memory so it may be a slightly off but if i'm not mistaken those four platforms in a row

00:37:12.900 they called for the defunding of independent schools and in the rhetoric they definitely were not

00:37:17.620 warm to the homeschool community they came to government in 2017 the 2017 platform did not have

00:37:25.780 any of that in there and it's interesting that even as they've governed i know they've pulled back

00:37:30.820 some of the funding for the distributed learning homeschoolers it had been if i'm not mistaken at 75

00:37:36.260 of of of the the of the the public school share for distributed learning students and it got pulled

00:37:42.100 back from 75 to 50 again i may begin the details slightly wrong there so there has been some uh

00:37:48.100 pushback but it has been nowhere near what their rhetoric was say 10 years ago uh and i believe

00:37:55.780 that's in large part because you have a critical mass and from other research i have done

00:38:03.460 if you look at independent schoolers and independent school families and homeschool families they're the

00:38:08.020 most likely to vote and to be very active in the political space that's not the case of your public

00:38:11.700 school families um so there there is a consequence uh electorally if if uh a government is hostile

00:38:19.140 towards the sector so that critical mass is important and also there's been incredible growth

00:38:23.860 now this is not provincial this is national so if we look canada wide going back to 06 07

00:38:31.220 which 06 was the year that i graduated from high school and if we fast forward to the most recent

00:38:36.180 year that we have stats can data for so we can compare problems to province the growth you've had

00:38:42.820 been 264 percent and although sure things have come down from covid you still have about a 70 retention

00:38:51.140 rate from covid and this is we do know this is going back up so the covid effect what wasn't just a

00:38:58.340 flash in the pan there's been a significant huge retention rate uh which is which is extraordinary

00:39:05.220 so incredible growth in the homeschool space uh also of course growth in the independent school space

00:39:11.140 um while public school has been relatively flat okay a few other studies if we have time doors to

00:39:16.900 quickly jump into this study here sorry you have time you go we love it okay super so so in terms of

00:39:24.980 again looking at we have the card's education survey now see if other uh research can can can um

00:39:30.980 corroborate this this is a study that i worked with katherine pakolic on so katherine did her phd

00:39:37.300 in economics at harvard and and and she's now a professor at a very prestigious university her husband

00:39:43.140 uh was professor at harvard for years one of those um uh one of the top philosophers in the world

00:39:48.500 genuinely very very very much so um i've never katherine i would i would say without hesitation

00:39:54.100 she's the smartest person i've ever met by far like just a genuine genius and what she did here she

00:40:00.340 she uh took a gigantic data set um so that you you could tease stuff out of it you can't tease out of

00:40:07.700 other data sets and what she wanted to find out is if we match um the religion at home with the

00:40:16.980 religion at school does that religious fit in and of itself boost uh reading and math scores uh the

00:40:28.180 the outcomes and and so because what we're trying to measure is is does the fit in and of itself matter

00:40:34.020 so of course that that is a strong argument for homeschooling and katherine by the way homeschooled her 1.00

00:40:37.940 kids um uh and and and and and a strong argument for home homeschooling is is is the fit that no

00:40:45.380 everything i want to teach my my kid uh all all of the curriculum needs to be permeated through what

00:40:51.940 mom and dad believe uh and the faith that's at the home there's a consistency in terms of what we

00:40:55.700 experience the church on sunday what we experience in the home there's an integrity where where our

00:40:59.780 lives there there there there's there's there because there's there's there's a consistency and

00:41:04.100 integrity to what to what we believe um that's important for the formation most especially of the

00:41:09.300 kids character that's obvious and there is a lot of research on that but does that in and of

00:41:14.100 itself affect the academic outcomes and we know from boatloads of research that academic

00:41:20.100 outcomes are correlated with things like economic growth things like longevity almost any desirable

00:41:25.620 metric uh or any desirable outcome from a societal perspective is strongly correlated with academic

00:41:31.940 performance very strongly correlated which is why there's so much pressure from society and from

00:41:36.420 governments and from corporations whatnot to continually improve academic standards um it's it's because the

00:41:43.220 correlations are just off the charts and and across the board okay okay so if those correlations matter

00:41:49.860 what about religious fit so let's look at that so um this okay this is a very technical paper so

00:41:58.100 it's actually let's skip let's skip this this data and let's let's just put it in plain english so

00:42:03.220 here's our normal distribution curve that we talked about a few minutes ago the the fit effect in terms of the

00:42:11.620 fit at school religiously and the fit at home religiously the effect that that has when we don't have

00:42:17.460 controls in place so so we're not isolating yet we're just looking at the raw effect is between 14 to 19 percentile

00:42:26.260 points not percentage points percentile points so if you're at 14 to 19 percentile points you're moving

00:42:33.540 someone from within the the average range uh to potentially into genius territory okay um uh or at

00:42:47.460 least for sure someone who's in the above average territory you're moving them into genius territory

00:42:51.380 someone who's way down here in in whatever the opposite of genius is whatever term we have for that

00:42:56.260 these days you're moving them at least into just within average or or uh within the below average

00:43:03.220 category to possibly within the average category so once you put controls uh in effect and isolate

00:43:08.900 just for fit itself you're still at four to nine percentile points so again think of what that means

00:43:16.260 if someone's at the the the um uh let's say that the the the the the 95th percentile okay well you're

00:43:25.060 you're now moving them from 95th percentile into like the absolute elite of the elite of the elite uh

00:43:31.060 categories through through fit um that's still huge okay you're skipping over um a full a full

00:43:39.140 segment of the distribution so hopefully that makes sense um the point point being um

00:43:51.300 you'll hear a lot of media commentary or you've heard a lot of media commentary around the pandemic

00:43:55.220 and around learning loss and there were there were a number of studies coming out uh predicting that

00:44:00.500 this generation that was in school for the pandemic uh life expectancy will drop uh anywhere from from

00:44:07.620 two to ten years their life expectancy will decline simply because of how dramatically their outcomes

00:44:12.820 their their academic qualities declined for example uh where uh grade 10 students presently are

00:44:21.620 in almost every province in terms of where they're at in their math and in their writing and reading

00:44:25.860 comprehension is where my cohort was at in grade eight and in and in a few provinces if i'm not

00:44:32.260 mistaken saskatchewan manitoba newfoundland they're actually three years behind so at grade 10 they're

00:44:37.140 where my cohort was in grade seven and my my peers and i were nothing special uh like my age group like

00:44:44.420 they were not shouting about how amazing or how bright we were there was nothing exceptional or

00:44:48.180 extraordinary but us we were so average historically speaking and frankly we were coming down a bit

00:44:53.620 from our parents generation in terms of academic outcomes on on some outcomes and that's we don't

00:44:59.060 need to debate all the weeds of that point is we we won't stand out but how steep the decline has been

00:45:05.140 and that decline was happening leading up to covet but it just fell off a cliff so the consequences of

00:45:10.500 that in terms of society they're extraordinary okay so how are we going to reverse that so first

00:45:16.660 getting parents involved in the education process and i i we barely scratched the surface we only

00:45:21.380 talked about much of that research but bottom line is uh mother does know best mom is the most

00:45:26.660 important ingredient in education by far and followed by dad so parents matter most and involvement

00:45:33.140 of parents engagement of parents with their kids that's the number one way to raise academic

00:45:38.100 outcomes okay and then secondly religion and and having consistency between religion in the home

00:45:44.420 religion at church and religion in whatever you're learning the curriculum and pedagogy all the rest

00:45:48.900 of it in terms of it being infused just um permeated with a christian world view and and and and

00:45:56.020 fully tying back to uh what what what you believe what what you hold most here so and what your

00:46:03.060 community believes in terms of community of faith so all of those pieces if we want to reverse the downward

00:46:07.940 trend those are the statistically speaking the two most powerful ingredients to reverse that that's

00:46:13.460 huge that's huge okay uh so then the question is okay well how do you then get that message out

00:46:20.260 because what i just said i actually did say that at an academic conference uh was it a year two years

00:46:26.180 ago i think it was two years ago and i i i showed the data and i i stepped into the methodology and and and

00:46:33.460 this one professor i won't see what university she's from she's very well known uh if you google her

00:46:37.220 name she's very well known she truly she was it was as if i was like like uh an absolute uh just

00:46:44.580 totally out to lunch and and so i walked her through the methodology show me where it's gone wrong walk

00:46:49.860 her through the data sets uh and then walk her through the findings and it is so foreign to to to

00:46:56.740 to their way of thinking that she couldn't even begin to like she had to just um at face value just

00:47:02.740 say no no this has there's something this can't be right this can't be right um and and and they

00:47:08.180 won't even engage in the in the conversation so even though i was on a panel i was a presenter

00:47:12.900 uh uh yeah it was it was extraordinary so so there isn't an openness so so how are we gonna how can we go

00:47:21.060 about uh uh defending christian education in in the public square and especially as a homeschooler

00:47:28.260 so the way that i like to to to address this let's say it's not with a a a crazy academic

00:47:36.740 who's locked in their ivory tower uh but let's say it's a normal person so your neighbor okay and

00:47:41.380 you're you're having a barbecue with with with your neighbor um and and the topic of say homeschool

00:47:47.780 comes up like what you homeschool oh and they think that's weird okay ask the question

00:47:52.420 why do my property taxes pay for the education of johnny down the street

00:48:01.140 and the answer the neighbor will probably give is oh well well the education of johnny or the lack

00:48:06.500 thereof profoundly impacts all of us society has an interest in the education of johnny okay

00:48:13.380 so if if the reason we're gonna we're gonna tax every every property owner the reason we're gonna

00:48:22.020 tax them is because johnny's education matters well then shouldn't we be giving johnny the best

00:48:26.740 education possible if we're willing to put it put a gun to people's heads and say you'll pony up

00:48:32.740 because hopefully that's what taxation is you don't pay your taxes watch what happens okay so if we're

00:48:38.100 willing to use force to make sure johnny's educated well then let's make sure he's educated as best as

00:48:44.340 possible okay well if with that kind of thinking then we need to be asking the question what's going

00:48:50.900 to make johnny a good citizen the reason johnny's being educated is because we think that's going to

00:48:55.860 lead to good citizenship so let's look at the literature and and if we look at every study every

00:49:00.820 empirical study that that is reputable where the methodology is sound the reality is only four

00:49:08.740 percent of them and and it's usually very niche what they find usually one very particular thing

00:49:14.420 find a public school advantage in terms of the formation of citizens the reality is the

00:49:19.540 overwhelming majority of the literature 96 percent of the literature finds public schools do not raise

00:49:24.580 the best citizens so 38 by neutral effects and then 58 find the independent schools raise raise

00:49:30.180 the best citizens now homeschoolers haven't really been looked at in this space and because and it's

00:49:34.660 because it's very hard to research homeschoolers it's very hard to ever represent a sample it's very

00:49:38.500 expensive uh but but the the the independent school findings frankly you can always put them on steroids

00:49:45.620 for what the the homeschool outcomes are as we saw in the credits education survey because whenever we

00:49:50.020 do those side-by-side comparisons we're almost always there are exceptions but almost always where you find

00:49:54.500 an independent school advantage you find a greater advantage in the homeschool space

00:50:00.020 and again we talk about socialization um there's that piece but also too what's the best form of

00:50:06.260 education there's lots of research on this what's what's the best way to be educated one-on-one tutoring

00:50:12.980 so if every single person has a one-on-one tutor that's the best education experience possible

00:50:17.380 okay so homeschooling isn't quite that for most kids for some it might be homeschooling isn't quite one-on-one tutoring

00:50:24.020 but let's be real the involvement of mom and dad is almost certainly to be greater and much greater

00:50:30.420 in a homeschool setting than that than in any other setting and it's in many cases almost like a tutor

00:50:36.580 so so again if there's all these societal benefits that are correlated with strong academics

00:50:42.260 even if mom and dad aren't a genius there's there's there's there's it follows that those those benefits

00:50:48.260 of tutoring um um come through to the homeschool environment so uh way another way teasing that out

00:50:55.220 in terms of uh again the important if johnny's education matters well let's let's look at the

00:50:59.700 pandemic uh in some jurisdictions schools were closed for for over a year uh i forget off the top of my head

00:51:05.940 the the the full number of of of weeks closed ontario was particularly bad um but the independent

00:51:13.300 schools christian schools they didn't shut down um the overwhelming majority of them so so 84 of them

00:51:18.740 did not miss even four days uh they moved online immediately and and and more than doubled uh the

00:51:25.540 guidelines that the ministry gave half of them did not miss a single day of class and then the question

00:51:31.380 again let's extend this to the homeschoolers how many homeschoolers miss school because of of

00:51:35.380 the pandemic how many homeschoolers missed because of the lockdown there was no lot learning loss

00:51:41.300 for for the homeschoolers um life rolled along didn't it very much very much so so so in terms of

00:51:51.860 who to communicate i'm not interested in communicating uh and debating with public school advocates

00:51:56.660 because you're not going to win them over and and again the experience i had that at that academic

00:52:00.980 conference you're talking to ideologues um uh and there's there's no room for even a conversation

00:52:07.060 uh or for for for a perspective even if it's evidence-based even if all the data is in your

00:52:12.900 favor uh logic is in your favor there's there's no room even for a conversation so i'm not interested

00:52:18.340 in winning over public school advocates of course private school advocates you'd be preaching and

00:52:22.660 homeschool advocates you're preaching the choir the broader public is is who i want to win over so what

00:52:27.460 language works i get away from the rights language and the reason for that rights matter and and and

00:52:34.420 again i've had my work submitted to courts i'm all about parental rights uh i'm big on constitutional

00:52:40.100 freedoms you're not going to find a guy who's who's bigger on all that sort of stuff but in terms of

00:52:44.660 winning over the mushy middle winning over your neighbor to why homeschooling matters

00:52:51.220 and and and and because we can't take it for granted that it is legal like you're you're literally one

00:52:55.860 one government away from it or one uh supreme court bench um flipping the tables on you and and and so

00:53:04.180 it's important that we continually persuade the public but you don't lead with the language of

00:53:08.660 rights we've done a lot of focus group research and when you lead with that language with those again

00:53:14.820 who are in the middle who are who are unaware of the issues and haven't lived your experience

00:53:20.420 there's an instant hesitation like why are you talking about rights what is it you're trying to

00:53:24.740 hide what what are you fringe like uh those who lead with rights usually it's it's because they're

00:53:31.380 not within uh the norms of society at least that's that's the view of the mushy middle so that's a 0.94

00:53:38.500 that's language not not to avoid but but language to not lead with if that makes sense so in in the in

00:53:46.580 the 70s and 80s that was the language simply because that was the issue on the table because

00:53:50.820 some school was illegal um but by the 90s the language moved towards choice and into the 2000s

00:53:57.060 language around school choice the problem with that language is that when it comes to children

00:54:03.140 especially when it comes to education again those who are the just the general public there there is a

00:54:09.780 hesitation to to anything that's that's market-based language because there's there's this this instinct

00:54:15.780 that that um your kid may be a widget not my kid and and you may be able to you know use market

00:54:23.380 mechanisms to to optimize for your child but not my kid my kid that is priceless uh there's there's

00:54:29.620 there's you know there's no measure to the value of my child and and and so because of that whenever

00:54:35.380 market language is used and there's much to be said for competition uh when public schools have

00:54:40.260 competition uh for students you better believe the quality of those public schools increase and

00:54:45.540 again the literature on that the research is overwhelming um market mechanisms like when

00:54:50.980 there's when there's price at the point of entry quality improves um when the person paying for some

00:54:58.340 something it's when when they're not buying it for themselves and it's not their money there's no

00:55:02.980 incentive for efficiency that's why the the cost the money that goes into education just keeps rising and

00:55:08.660 rising but outcomes keep falling and falling like mark understanding how markets work and bringing

00:55:16.820 that in bringing that lens into um education research there's a place for that that's important

00:55:24.100 it matters but with your neighbor that language doesn't work it doesn't resonate okay so the language

00:55:30.580 that's a cardis uh we we learned to use was the language of outcomes a tree is known by its fruit

00:55:38.100 a good tree is good fruit a good well as pure water uh a polluted well has has polluted water

00:55:43.780 look at the outcomes okay if you want to criticize public school don't do it from an ideological

00:55:47.860 perspective just look at the outcomes are public schools teaching kids how to read no they're not

00:55:53.380 a third of kids can't read by grade three okay and historically if you can't read by grade four

00:55:58.820 you will not read until you're an adult why because the teacher keeps passing along to the next teacher

00:56:05.220 they got 35 kids they're not allowed to discipline so they already have an unruly class they don't have

00:56:11.220 time to be teaching a kid at grade five grade six how to read to give them the basics not a chance

00:56:16.420 and mathematics is even more cumulative if you can't do addition and and subtraction you can't step

00:56:25.380 into times tables and and division and if you can't do that you're not stepping into algorithms and and

00:56:31.540 algebra and geometry forget it math is cumulative you can't skip any steps when it comes to mathematics

00:56:37.860 so if a kid is just being passed along and if one third of kids this is an accurate stack across

00:56:44.900 canada at this present moment this is very recent data one third of kids in grade three can't read

00:56:50.340 one third of kids in grade three can't do basic numeracy that's the public school right now so forget

00:56:57.860 all the ideological stuff you don't have to go there with the neighbors just look at the outcomes

00:57:01.300 our kids are our schools forming good citizens is our society today less polarized because of public

00:57:08.500 schools or more it doesn't take a rocket science scientist to to put those two together okay public

00:57:16.500 schools the the myth is that we need public schools for the sake of our civilization for the sake of our

00:57:23.060 of our of of of democracy okay if public schools are necessary for democracy sorry when when when

00:57:29.780 when did democracy emerge historically in ancient greece were there public schools in ancient greece

00:57:34.580 okay let's look at canada's history in 1867 how many public schools were there in 1867

00:57:40.660 public schools didn't exist yet so so if these are necessary for the sake of democracy

00:57:46.580 sorry how did this democratic country emerge without public schools that's absolute nonsense

00:57:52.900 that's all myths but you don't have to go there just point at outcomes and then in terms of the

00:57:57.140 case for homeschool point at the outcomes and a very important caveat with homeschool outcomes is that

00:58:04.260 homeschooling tends to be on an inverted curve so i just we just looked at a few research studies here

00:58:10.180 if we really you know if we we have we had a whole week together and did a seminar what we would find

00:58:16.180 and we take all the criticism on board so take all the studies that have that that that hate on

00:58:20.660 homeschoolers look at all that let's look at all the positive ones let's bring it all together

00:58:24.740 what you'll find is an inverted uh bell curve so where we looked at a normal distribution a normal

00:58:30.740 bell curve homeschoolers tend to have an inverted bell curve where they're on the polar ends of almost

00:58:35.540 every measure why because homeschool eliminates the average there's no such thing as an average

00:58:41.780 homeschooler and that's not a bad thing because what happens in homeschool is is you tend to become

00:58:48.020 who you really are and you're not trying to be anybody else you're not trying to fit in with

00:58:51.700 with whatever crowd you're you're you're going to um gravitate to what you're naturally gifted at

00:58:58.020 what you're good at and so for some kids some kids don't need to go on to university frankly the

00:59:03.780 majority don't need to go on to university and you see that in the homeschool data which graduates are

00:59:10.100 the least likely to go to university homeschool grads that's a fact that's not a bad thing which 1.00

00:59:16.980 graduates are the most likely to go on and get a phd as well which graduates are the most likely to be

00:59:24.980 top performers at top universities homeschoolers so the most likely to succeed in university and to

00:59:32.100 go really far to be top of the class they're homeschoolers but they're also the most likely

00:59:36.420 to not go to university and i think a big part of that is many homeschoolers go on to be moms

00:59:40.900 stay-at-home moms and if you get married at at 19 20 21 22 don't finish university you get married

00:59:47.380 start having kids that's not a bad thing like that's that's like investing in the future of our

00:59:54.900 nation in in the most concentrated fashion making the greatest contribution to our society children who

01:00:01.860 are well-formed well-grounded productive industrious polite thoughtful children moms who do that okay

01:00:10.740 and and and the reality is is mothers who cultivate civilization and family of course is the bedrock 0.99

01:00:16.660 of civilization who's the most likely to do that it's homeschoolers but you'll get academics and

01:00:21.460 you'll get critics will say oh but look uh the least likely to go to university the homeschool grads okay

01:00:26.340 but why is that what are they doing and that's also what comes through our data which graduates

01:00:32.260 are the least likely to be employed homeschool grads again why is that because you've got so many moms 1.00

01:00:38.180 right they're stay-at-home moms that doesn't that doesn't mean and again that's not that's not a bad 0.86

01:00:43.700 outcome like like my wife has a 24 7 job 20 20 24 7 job with with four children it's insane how much work

01:00:51.620 it is with with four kids let alone those who have who have more kids right that doesn't like so she 0.99

01:00:56.900 she doesn't show up in employment statistics that's nonsense okay so so so there's those who will

01:01:02.100 cherry pick the data to point at homeschoolers in a negative fashion but i would flip all of that flip

01:01:07.460 all that no the outcomes are far superior and again it's on an inverted curve so least likely to be

01:01:13.460 employed but the most likely to be entrepreneurs and employing others least likely to go to university

01:01:18.100 but if they choose to go to university they're the top performers they're going to get phds

01:01:21.460 so that inverted bell curve is actually that's very important um and also too what are we measuring

01:01:27.140 what matters the priority of of you and your family may not be the priority of whatever government

01:01:34.020 uh or whatever academic or whatever media commentator and in a free society should that not be okay

01:01:40.580 um so in in conclusion the last thing again in conversation with the neighbor over the barbecue

01:01:47.700 there's three things um i like to emphasize that need to be held in tension and this doesn't come

01:01:52.420 from me this comes from um jan de groot and charlie glenn charles glenn was a prof for many years at uh

01:02:00.340 boston college which is now boston university brilliant guy um and he talks about three things

01:02:06.020 maybe held in tension now if i'm not mistaken don't quote me on this i'm pretty sure he homeschooled

01:02:10.260 his kids and i think he had like six or seven kids and he was university prof uh brilliant guy

01:02:15.380 does a lot of great research we talked about how freedom needs to be held in tension with autonomy

01:02:21.700 and with accountability so if there is funding for homeschoolers that are public funds taxpayer funds

01:02:27.700 every taxpayer dollar needs to be accounted for so whoever the treasurer is whoever the minister of

01:02:33.300 finance is and and what and his staff or her staff they have a fiduciary responsibility to to know where

01:02:41.700 and how those funds were used uh it would be irresponsible for them not to so if you're going to receive

01:02:46.900 funds as a homeschooler or or as a christian schooler there needs to be a certain degree of

01:02:52.820 public accountability and and that's not something that should be resisted now if there's no public funds

01:02:58.820 will then you know bug off uh that that that's a totally different dynamic but if there's public

01:03:04.020 funding accountability must go with it it's irresponsible for that not to be the case so

01:03:09.620 there's that and also autonomy there's this thing called the freedom of association that is in our

01:03:16.020 charter and this goes back to common law and this uh i'm not sure if this one was actually in magna

01:03:20.420 carta but it's you're you're you're going to go back way in time to find the origins of freedom

01:03:25.060 of association but the reality is distinct communities are allowed to be distinct and

01:03:30.660 autonomous and homeschool communities are allowed to exist in their own co-ops and frankly it is

01:03:36.340 criminal um that many governments in this country do not allow homeschool cooperatives where if there's

01:03:43.860 a certain number of children that are present between the hours of it depends on on the the province

01:03:50.020 but they'll actually set like say 9 a.m to like 4 p.m or 3 p.m or something if there's more than

01:03:54.900 five children um together that's technically by definition of school therefore you have to be

01:04:01.540 registered with the government again stuff like that that is nonsense and that hasn't been challenged

01:04:06.260 to the courts yet um and and and when you challenge something at the court level you need to

01:04:11.940 really do your homework in terms of who's on the bench what are your arguments to know that you have a

01:04:15.700 great chance of winning it because if you lose that's that's a permanent loss but the reality

01:04:21.060 is freedom of association we have a right to associate and and this again is where compulsory

01:04:26.820 school laws are really incompatible with the free society they truly are and they are not necessary

01:04:32.420 the reasons why they exist the the claims for why they exist are all bogus um because again take

01:04:38.100 something like literacy literacy literacy rates were well beyond 90 before you had any compulsory uh schooling

01:04:44.180 loss um and so then that's that's a different tangent point being free for freedom in terms

01:04:51.380 of your parental rights needs to be held in tension with with autonomy that schools have rights as as

01:04:57.220 associations teachers need to be professionals principals that sort of stuff right so there is

01:05:02.900 much to be said for that and then if there's any funding there's accountability and i find it's very

01:05:07.780 disarming when you're talking with your neighbor and and they think you're just this crazy freedom

01:05:12.500 person who all you care about is is your your your own individual liberty at this uh at the expense

01:05:18.660 of society it's like no no no no no hold up i believe in accountability and and and i believe in

01:05:23.940 in in freedom association i believe in autonomy and i believe teachers should be professional

01:05:27.620 yada yada yada all that sort of stuff but i find this language of holding these three things in tension

01:05:32.580 there's a logic to it it's disarming uh and that is how i think yeah we lead with outcomes i think we

01:05:39.140 can be persuasive in terms of the value of homeschooling that is this is my contact info

01:05:44.340 for anyone who wants to reach out but yeah and any questions dorothy you have happy to take them

01:05:49.380 thank you no that was fantastic and uh when you talk about outcomes um there's plenty of adults now

01:05:57.780 who were homeschooled and through the 80s and 90s in the early 2000s and we may not even know who

01:06:06.180 they are but they are being uh productive in society they're contributors they've holding good

01:06:13.220 jobs uh some are post-secondary some are not like just all those things you said like i know oodles

01:06:21.140 and oodles of these kids who are probably in their late 30s now some are even in their early 40s and uh

01:06:30.020 they're doing so so well and uh so you know we can talk about the early outcomes um when they're

01:06:36.580 still in actively being educated and we can talk about outcomes when they're adults and um i remember

01:06:43.300 when my kids were little uh there was a a gentleman in my church who was just starting his family

01:06:49.860 and uh he always enjoyed talking to the homeschoolers he says you can actually have a

01:06:54.100 real conversation with them and it's funny because that always stuck with me because now when i meet

01:07:00.820 children and i may not know a thing about what kind of schooling they have but i can spot the homeschooled

01:07:07.940 kids and maybe it's because i i you know raised my kids that way i don't know but they're not hard to

01:07:15.540 to find because they just socialize so well with adults and they know they know how to talk to adults

01:07:21.860 they know how to engage adults yeah and how to engage strangers oh yes no problem there

01:07:28.980 which is whereas again if you're going to school all day every day with the same people every day who

01:07:33.940 look like you live next to the same age as you like strangers are this foreign entity whereas for a 0.73

01:07:40.500 homeschool kid you encounter strangers almost every day yeah yeah that's the thing and they become

01:07:45.700 peer dependent if that's all they've ever known is growing up in the same age group their whole lives

01:07:50.820 and uh you know and then you have the whole negative socialization versus the positive socialization

01:07:57.940 uh negative being in in that group mentality and the positive being individual and socializing like we

01:08:04.740 said with adults and even like a neighbor that might be five years old or a kid or um you know your

01:08:12.980 friend's sister or who might be you know or the baby they're comfortable with all ages and that's what makes

01:08:21.060 it really special um yeah i really noticed that in my kids i also wanted just to add um

01:08:30.820 when i interviewed hslda uh he was that's the homeschool legal defense association he was saying that when

01:08:38.660 during during lockdown um and children were home for that long period of time parents would you

01:08:45.780 know be looking over the shoulder and going oh we could probably do that and so those families who

01:08:52.820 were sitting on the fence wondering what should we should we not you know they did they went you know

01:08:59.220 what let's do this let's give it a try and they chose to homeschool and i don't know if it was like

01:09:05.220 2022 23 but they their survey said that in canada homeschooling doubled during that time and so

01:09:14.340 that's kind of cool to hear that and just to put a little uh encouragement out there too hslda has been

01:09:20.340 out there since i think they formed early 90s and they were the front runners and still are fighting

01:09:27.460 uh for freedom to home educate in canada and they work specifically with each province because each

01:09:35.540 province's laws are a little bit different similar and some are different um and like you said david like

01:09:43.220 we could just be a step away from losing it all and so together all of us always remember what we have

01:09:52.340 and stand our ground and protect this privilege and and joy to homeschool our kids it really is a joy

01:10:04.100 uh i was going to just put uh one cool question survey out there for you it would be interesting

01:10:10.500 one day because we've got these older homeschool kids in their 30s and 40s now this the question in

01:10:17.300 my mind would be when a homeschooler marries a homeschooler what does that look like in those

01:10:24.180 all those categories versus a homeschooler marrying a public schooler or a homeschooler marrying a

01:10:32.740 private schooler and then all those outcomes all those questions that you have there what that looks

01:10:38.740 like it would just be interesting to see what that looks like

01:10:41.220 yeah and i do believe i've come across don't ask me to pull it up because this would have been

01:10:49.460 at least five years ago but i do recall coming across something that looked at uh when when two

01:10:54.820 homeschoolers get married uh and yeah the the likelihood that they homeschool their kids it's just

01:11:01.460 beyond off the charts like it's it's all i i forget i forget exactly what the numbers were but i remember

01:11:07.140 it was it was way up there and so some there are some that have looked at that question yeah i think

01:11:14.180 of all the homeschoolers that i know that married a homeschooler they are still homeschooling their

01:11:19.220 their kids now yeah yeah and although some people have a poor experience in every one of these school

01:11:25.220 categories you can find horror stories but again the point of of of data so the way way um a colleague

01:11:33.140 of mine uh matthew lee brilliant scholar down the states he says qualitative data so stories anecdotes

01:11:42.820 tell you what is possible but why data matters quantitative data is it tells you what's plausible

01:11:50.100 so what's what's the most likely case what's the average what's the aggregate and that's again why data

01:11:55.860 is so important it's not the it's not the whole story you you can find anomalies on it on every end and

01:12:00.980 you can find amazing public school stories there are some great public school stories and there's

01:12:04.980 some great public schools in canada still and amazing public school teachers and principals i i

01:12:10.340 principals i i know many of them um but on average on balance in the aggregate no the the outcomes

01:12:17.460 just aren't there and for homeschoolers they are there and you're right the joy um it's tough the

01:12:22.180 first six months and even the first year of homeschooling if you've had your kid in a conventional

01:12:26.820 school it's it's a at least for us it was a tough bridge but once you once you get through that

01:12:32.740 initial hump um it's it's like exercise or diet eating healthy food right if you've been eating

01:12:39.140 garbage for so long initially good food tastes terrible uh or if you've been exercised ever

01:12:44.340 initially it's it's brutal but once you find that it's it's healthy it's wonderful and the joy you're 0.86

01:12:49.060 right you're totally right oh it is and i always tell um it's usually moms that are you know the primary

01:12:55.460 home educator when they pull their child out of the system whether it's private or public because

01:13:02.500 it's a classroom setting so the kid is used to the structure and the recess bell and then the lunch bell

01:13:08.340 and you know they're just used to these routines and so when the child comes home um both child and

01:13:15.300 parent are learning like okay it's different like we have free time and there's only three of us at home

01:13:22.260 versus 20 around me and we're all different ages and so mom is learning how to create structure and 0.62

01:13:30.260 routine and uh discipline and the child's trying to find their way in how this works so i always say

01:13:37.380 like you know you got to give yourself almost a month for each grade they were away so that let's

01:13:42.420 say they were gone you know they were in the system for six years or yeah six grade six like you need

01:13:48.340 at least six months and i say give yourself a year and you may even need the older the child is you

01:13:53.620 might even need half into that second year um if you're if the child's only been in the system for

01:13:59.860 you know kindergarten grade one or something um it'll go a lot faster because there's not so you used to

01:14:06.740 the way the system works and i just want to you know put that as an encouragement out there

01:14:12.580 when you're pulling your hair parents and you're just ready like to throw in the towel i'm going i

01:14:18.340 can't do this nobody's listening to me or um i don't know what i'm doing i feel disorganized or

01:14:24.260 whatever that's okay everybody has a day like that and uh there's always another new day and if it's a

01:14:31.780 bad day it's a bad day and you you acknowledge it's a bad day and you start again the next day and

01:14:37.460 let me tell you i homeschooled my kids k to 12 for 17 years and we had some bad days but i my memory

01:14:47.380 is all positive and i remember when i when i have conversations i remember things that were hard

01:14:55.060 but most of it was positive and deeply satisfying for the whole family and uh the freedom of lifestyle

01:15:04.900 comes along with that as well like when you want to do the formal schooling part and school isn't

01:15:11.540 always sit there and do your paperwork there's all the projects that are fun that you can start after

01:15:17.860 lunch the outside stuff the treasure hunts the science experiments it's it's just i mean i can go on

01:15:25.060 and on and on but uh anyways i want to thank you david that was a fantastic presentation um it'll be very uh

01:15:33.540 helpful encouraging to a lot of people who are always worried about like is my child being

01:15:39.620 socialized is my child going to be okay is my child going to turn out okay will my child like be smart

01:15:45.540 will my child get to university and um my my point to that really is like each year you you can decide

01:15:54.500 and and watch your child as they develop and then see if university is their path or is a trade school

01:16:01.060 their path or is it going to be just you know out there doing something else even entrepreneur

01:16:07.780 oh my goodness what a gift that's a beautiful career and uh anyways you you you've made us relax

01:16:17.460 and know that socialization is scores well with homeschoolers and uh you know the the research is

01:16:24.980 phenomenal really yeah do you have any closing comments um no no not really um thanks for having

01:16:34.900 me i guess would be my my my closing comment thank you for having me this has been a pleasure and yeah

01:16:39.460 to your audience uh keep going where can we find you uh so the our website is aristotlefoundation.org

01:16:47.620 uh yeah and we'll we'll we'll be producing stuff in a whole range of topics but in the education file

01:16:59.620 we'll continue continue um there'll be a lot of stuff coming down the pipe and then also cardis.ca where i

01:17:04.580 used to uh work and where a lot of this research the overwhelming majority of this research comes from

01:17:09.300 cardis.ca c-a-r-d-u-s.ca they do amazing work they're going to keep doing amazing work um i fully

01:17:16.660 expect and yeah so check out both both those websites and there'll be stuff coming up on a

01:17:22.340 very regular basis wow that was fantastic wasn't it uh so thorough and um it's just so much good

01:17:31.940 information there to help parents make a decision whether to start homeschooling in the fall

01:17:38.100 or just to keep going and do it another year and uh the stats show really well that homeschool kids

01:17:46.980 are going to be well socialized they're going to be great contributors to society as adults um hold jobs and

01:17:59.060 uh volunteer be active in community church uh stay married have children and uh it's really just

01:18:12.340 encouraging to hear this so thank you david hunt from aristotle foundation uh for presenting that to us

01:18:21.540 uh today and if you want to reach david hunt you can find him at the aristotlefoundation.org

01:18:30.180 and if you have any questions and you would like to reach out to me um

01:18:35.540 you can email me at homeschooling at action for canada.ca so thanks for being here thanks for watching

01:18:44.180 and we'll see you again next time bye bye

Action4Canada - May 31, 2024

Are Homeschoolers Socialized？ – What Does the Research Say？

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