Action4Canada - December 08, 2022


Churches: How to Interact with Law Enforcement - June 3rd, 2021


Episode Stats

Length

36 minutes

Words per Minute

162.07576

Word Count

5,982

Sentence Count

1


Summary

In this episode, I cover section 176 of the Criminal Code, which provides protection under the criminal code for churches and pastors. This section provides protection from criminal charges for obstructing, obstructing or attempting to obstruct a religious or spiritual service or any other function in connection with their calling.


Transcript

00:00:00.000 without further ado constable vincent great to have you thanks um i was looking forward to doing
00:00:14.520 this again i think this is the third or fourth time i'm running this information session for
00:00:20.260 pastors uh just to clarify i am a retired constable i've done my 32 years i think i've
00:00:26.420 deserved the retired designation that goes with it and i am not i'm not here to represent the
00:00:32.940 police organization i don't believe the police organization would appreciate the things that
00:00:38.520 i'll be telling you they take a different stance on this and they believe in all the nonsense that
00:00:43.420 they're having to enforce or feeling necessary to enforce we're starting this off with section 176
00:00:53.640 under the criminal code and let me just say that a lot of police departments or services across the
00:00:59.100 country are not familiar with section 176 and it seems to become familiar to certain agencies once
00:01:05.840 they've violated it and it's been brought to their attention that they are in violation of it so i'm
00:01:11.520 going to cover it for you because it's very very important and it gives churches and pastors quite
00:01:17.820 a bit of protection under the criminal code so section 176 of the criminal code the offense section
00:01:26.120 clearly states that every person is guilty of an offense and liable to imprisonment who by threats
00:01:33.020 of force unlawfully obstructs or prevents or endeavors to obstruct or prevent an efficient from celebrating a
00:01:40.960 religious or spiritual service or performing any other function in connection with their calling
00:01:46.820 or and that word or is very important because it means it could be section a or b it doesn't have
00:01:53.980 to be both of them together or knowing that an efficient is about to perform is on their way to
00:02:00.240 perform or is returning from the performance of any of these duties or functions meant mentioned in
00:02:06.020 paragraph a and it says assaults or offers any violence to them or arrests them on a civil process
00:02:15.560 or under the pretense of executing a civil process so there that gives you quite a bit of protection
00:02:22.340 under the criminal code that police cannot interfere with your service going to a service coming home
00:02:29.960 from a service or at a service there shall be no interference by the police and clearly you've seen
00:02:37.260 examples already on different forms of media of these violations occurring and they are not only
00:02:44.700 charter rights violations but this is a criminal code offense so next slide if you will mac
00:02:50.780 or whoever's controlling the slides
00:02:54.920 okay so disturbing uh i think we went to it there we go disturbing religious worship or certain meetings
00:03:02.820 so subsection 2 of section 176 says everyone who willfully disturbs or interrupts an assemblage of
00:03:10.260 persons met for religious worship or for a moral social or benevolent purpose is guilty of an offense
00:03:19.500 and that says quite a bit and that offers you quite a bit of protection under the criminal code
00:03:25.160 and subsection 3 of section 176 says everyone who at or near a meeting referred to in subsection 2
00:03:33.220 willfully does anything that disturbs the order or solemnity of the meeting is guilty of an offense
00:03:42.160 so this would include counter protesters that come by your open service and start disturbing your service
00:03:49.800 and that is also a criminal offense next slide
00:03:54.580 so from the enforcement agent police agent engagement perspective what you're required to do
00:04:03.920 and it is very important is uh these things are going to happen and you're already familiar with
00:04:10.240 this and that's why you're here to understand how to deal with it so it is imperative that you set up
00:04:16.500 some type of system to record the interaction that is about to happen between yourself and
00:04:22.620 police or bylaw or any enforcement agency that comes to your location to talk to you about this
00:04:29.100 audio is good video is preferred and if there is going to be any audio recording it is a legal necessity
00:04:38.640 that you are engaged in the conversation you can't just leave an audio recording device
00:04:45.140 in some undisclosed location and record what other people are saying you can if you are a party to
00:04:51.600 the conversation but not if you are not so advise the police or law enforcement that you're exercising
00:04:57.820 your foundational rights these rights that you do have actually come from many different sources and
00:05:03.740 i'll get into that near the end of this slide presentation and all the different rights that you have
00:05:08.720 provide your name and title immediately when you're dealing with some law enforcement official
00:05:13.960 because by doing that uh they're going to ask and so by being up front and giving them
00:05:19.340 your name and i would suggest that once you give your name ask the individual that you're dealing with
00:05:24.900 for their name because that's the best time and opportunity to do an exchange of names
00:05:31.340 and you also have a right to remain silent so you don't actually have to say anything
00:05:37.260 then identifying yourself to enforcement when they request because they're in some provinces there is
00:05:44.380 an arrest authority for failing to identify so once you've identified yourself you really do not need to say
00:05:50.540 anything else you're not required to answer any questions and i would suggest if the conversation is
00:05:59.340 cordial and polite then you can engage but if it appears that you're going to be charged with something
00:06:04.760 at that point i would not answer any further questions so always be respectful be polite be non-combative
00:06:11.980 but verbally stand your ground when you're dealing with police officers i will say having been a police
00:06:18.920 officer for 32 years and having been around thousands of police officers throughout the profession
00:06:24.520 i can tell you that most police officers do not like to be challenged they don't like to be told
00:06:30.960 and they don't like to be challenged and i never found it offensive when somebody challenged me myself
00:06:36.680 because i clearly understood the laws that i was enforcing and i understood the situations that i was
00:06:43.000 dealing with so if somebody had a difference of opinion or challenged me on something i would have no
00:06:49.000 difficulty discussing that but i see that some officers do and we're going to get into the next part
00:06:56.380 about the identification on your properties so it's very important that you do put up some signage
00:07:02.840 in advance of the police coming onto your property and it's so that you're warning them about section 176
00:07:10.600 and what it states and that way they're not coming in unprepared you'll you don't have to tell them
00:07:16.660 what the law is you just post it on the sign outside the entrance to your property so there is no legal
00:07:22.960 warrant for police to uh enter your property or go onto your property uh unless they have a search
00:07:30.660 warrant and um for the the purposes of these provincial violations um there's not going to be
00:07:36.600 a search warrant issue involved in this um somebody once chimed in during this presentation and said
00:07:41.820 that's not true there's also the the section that deals with police officers in hot pursuit of a
00:07:47.900 wanted uh criminal uh or dangerous offender and you know we're not getting into that aspect that's
00:07:53.880 that's not why the police are showing up on your property they're showing up on your property because
00:07:58.660 you're having a social gathering so when they do um ask them for their identification there is nothing
00:08:05.940 at all wrong with asking to see their identification if they don't have a name or a badge number on their
00:08:12.020 uniform displayed which they should then just ask them to see their badge and there'll be what's
00:08:18.140 called a warrant card which is a photo id card associated to that badge and just take a look at it and
00:08:24.460 confirm the name of the person that you're dealing with so it's very important that you make notes
00:08:31.000 when you're having contact you'll notice that police officers always carry a little black book with them
00:08:36.740 and it's a journal and police officers are always making notes and they're making notes because they
00:08:42.440 suspect that what they're doing is going to either need to be entered on the database and or they're
00:08:48.960 going to need to have some information to provide in court when the case goes to court so that these are
00:08:54.920 their journal entries and you have every right to do the same thing so feel free to take a notepad
00:09:01.120 or a diary book and start making notes on that with who you're dealing with with time they show up
00:09:07.560 and all of the information so you're not required to surrender any documentation of identification if
00:09:16.580 you're asked for identification identification does not mean you need to provide a card or a driver's
00:09:24.200 license or a health card identification means you need to provide your name and in some provinces
00:09:30.620 also your address and your date of birth so the most you need to provide in any given province
00:09:37.380 is your name your address and your date of birth feel free to ask the enforcement officers that you're
00:09:44.620 dealing with if you are being detained or if you are under arrest because if they say no you are not
00:09:51.080 being detained or you are not under arrest you are free to leave you are you're not being held in
00:09:56.880 custody then take advantage of that opportunity and feel free to walk away
00:10:01.320 and also state to the officer that you wish to have no further communication when you feel like
00:10:08.840 having no further communication and at that time just exit the conversation if you're not happy with
00:10:15.360 the way things are going next slide so if the agent or police constable persists then feel free that if
00:10:26.360 it is your you are in control of your property then you can request that they leave the property
00:10:31.160 uh and and certainly my experience on uh cases in ontario where pastors have been charged um if it's
00:10:40.280 during or just just prior to or just after or during a service they should not be on the property they
00:10:47.820 should not be interfering with your process and they should not be laying charges at that time
00:10:53.180 so most agencies that have figured this out the proper procedure for them is to allow you to have
00:11:00.660 your service not to interfere with that service but that they will most likely show up the next day
00:11:06.060 or two days later and they will want to speak to you about it then so if they're there on your
00:11:11.640 property during a service or just prior to a service or just following a service then definitely feel
00:11:17.640 free to ask them to leave the property and if they don't comply you have to state that they are
00:11:22.600 trespassing and they're subject to the trespass act and that they are also in violation of section 176 of
00:11:30.580 the criminal code so it's very important that you videotape that connection and that conference or that
00:11:36.040 discussion because they are committing a criminal offense if they appear on your property during a
00:11:41.820 service next slide
00:11:44.500 so if you're charged and you receive a ticket or a summons
00:11:50.680 understand that these are provincial offenses these are not criminal offenses these are the equivalent
00:11:58.220 to a speeding ticket so respectfully accept the ticket and do not throw it away do not discard
00:12:06.020 it do not throw it in the trash do not ignore it because once it is served to you it is now your
00:12:12.400 responsibility to deal with it the courts will deem that it has been served to you so you will be
00:12:18.320 responsible for responding to it so dispute the ticket on the back of the ticket or the summons you
00:12:24.440 want to check off the section that says you want to dispute the fine make a copy of that ticket as
00:12:30.280 you're going to probably have to send the ticket into the court by mail and include in your notes or
00:12:36.520 journal that you were taking at the time of your interaction include the information that's on that
00:12:41.700 and then make notes and when you do make notes again i've just added some further information here
00:12:47.440 make sure you put the date on your notes and the time that you're writing the notes and sign each page
00:12:53.440 of your notes and include what is said and who said what during the interactions it's a good idea
00:13:02.100 before you start writing all your detailed notes after you've had contact with law enforcement that
00:13:08.060 you do review any video that you've taken because reviewing the video is going to really help you
00:13:13.960 remember the sequence of exactly what happened and who said what and you will be allowed to introduce
00:13:19.940 video and audio information that you have as evidence in court should it be required but i don't
00:13:26.920 believe you're you're going to get that far you're not i don't believe you're going to even need to
00:13:30.780 testify in court and i'll explain why um so um also the notes can be used to refresh your memory in
00:13:39.420 court and that's why you should be taking the notes but they have to be made uh by yourself they can't
00:13:45.520 be somebody else making notes for you and you have to do it immediately following the incident you
00:13:51.120 can't make it a few days later so in provincial courts they're generally closed right now most of
00:13:58.060 them are so in your first appearance you're going to expect to have a zoom meeting rather than an
00:14:03.160 in-person court appearance um in alberta and ontario there's no trials that i know of and i think
00:14:12.340 that's the same in british columbia as well depending on which province you're in i'm pretty
00:14:17.480 sure all the provinces right now are having zoom meetings so the fines that you're being charged with
00:14:24.120 whether it's a summons or a ticket these are for deterrent purposes designated to instill fear
00:14:29.540 and to prevent you to stop your actions and to prevent you from proceeding any further with any further
00:14:36.640 gatherings but i will say that i am not familiar with a single case yet where anybody has been
00:14:44.320 convicted of any charter violation as a result of these lockdown measures or covid fines because these
00:14:51.400 are all constitutional charter violations so i have here if arrested and only when taken into custody
00:14:59.420 you must be given access to your preferred lawyer or if you don't have a preferred lawyer to free legal aid
00:15:05.260 lawyer which is free of charge as soon as possible following any arrest and that you have to be given
00:15:12.140 privacy for a conversation when you do have access to your lawyer so the only times we've seen any
00:15:17.800 pastors that have actually been arrested and taken into custody it doesn't come from having a service
00:15:24.620 and getting a ticket it comes from eventually when you violate the the provincial laws
00:15:32.940 um enough times and i can't say how many times or enough times in every province uh it varies but
00:15:40.620 assuming you've done it 10 20 30 times um then generally the police contact the attorney general of the
00:15:49.380 province and they say we've issued numerous tickets to this pastor at this church and he's still violating
00:15:56.700 we we can't get them to stop and so the attorney general speaks with the prosecutor of the local
00:16:03.000 courthouse and they arrange to bring you before a judge and there'll be an order to have you attend court
00:16:10.860 before a judge and then the judge will make a ruling on this violation and when the judge makes a ruling
00:16:18.460 now the the court ruling will have more weight and more authority than the ticket and the judge might
00:16:26.540 release you and say okay you know you've been to court now i'm giving you a court order not to
00:16:34.300 continue your church service and if you do you can be arrested and brought before me again and this is what
00:16:41.620 we've seen happen in several jurisdictions and once you're arrested and brought before the court
00:16:46.760 the police would like to release you on a recognizance for violating a judge's order and in that
00:16:55.600 recognizance the courts have the authority to put conditions on your release and one of the conditions
00:17:02.120 would be that you no longer hold church service and in some provinces we've seen pastors
00:17:07.880 um refused to sign that court order because uh or the the release order they refused to sign it
00:17:15.960 as pastor coates did because he can't swear that he is not going to hold continue to hold church
00:17:21.320 service so this is where your lawyer would get involved and they'll negotiate for your release
00:17:27.400 without having to sign these types of conditions next slide
00:17:32.120 so here are the basic human rights protections that we are all afforded and they still exist they
00:17:42.440 haven't gone they're still there but they are being ignored and so the rights that we have is first of
00:17:50.660 all the international declaration of human rights that came from the united nations and i think about
00:17:57.000 1948 following the nuremberg trials of 46 and canada has signed on to those international basic human rights
00:18:05.040 and we have the bill of rights from 1960 which gives you the freedom of religion and the freedom all the
00:18:13.240 other freedoms that you'll see within the charter they exist on another federal platform called the bill of
00:18:20.040 rights then we have the canadian charter of rights which was founded uh and the document was signed in
00:18:28.760 1982 in 1982 happens to be the year that i started policing and i was one of the first classes went through
00:18:36.720 one of the first classes in ontario to fully understand the effects of the canadian charter of rights
00:18:43.240 and how as a law enforcement official we are supposed to protect people's charter rights and ensure that
00:18:51.600 we never violate anybody's charter rights because there are serious repercussions for doing so
00:18:56.340 so these are the different levels of protection that we have and in addition to that police services have
00:19:04.920 what they call the police services act which was the police bible for how we operate and how you conduct
00:19:11.880 business and it'll say right in the police services act that operations are pursuant to the canadian
00:19:18.520 charter of rights and then police officers also take an oath and that oath in ontario police officers
00:19:27.880 oath includes swearing to uphold and protect the canadian constitution which includes the
00:19:35.480 canadian charter of rights so these are all the layers of protection that you have
00:19:41.400 that are being violated right now they still exist but they're just being ignored and this is a big
00:19:51.240 problem and there are a number of police officers who stand fast and say i will not violate anybody's
00:19:58.440 charter rights i'm not prepared to issue these types of fines or lay these charges against people and there
00:20:05.560 are other police officers who think that it's okay because some minister of health has declared that
00:20:12.840 this law is necessary even though it goes against all those layers of protection that we have been afforded for
00:20:21.080 60 70 years now so this is uh this is a real problem and at least currently to my understanding it appears that the courts are still protecting individuals in these cases
00:20:33.560 cases next slide next slide so um we'll hear of things being legal and we'll hear of things being lawful lawful
00:20:43.240 lawful carries much more weight than the term legal so a minister of health may write a law that is legal but it is not
00:20:52.840 necessarily lawful and the differences between the two essentially on the legal side it's uh about being obedient
00:21:02.120 it's just the core substance of the law and uh on the lawful side it deals with issues of morality and ethics
00:21:11.320 and it represents the form and nature of the law so i have here on one side the term interior versus exterior
00:21:20.760 and that essentially in describing the difference between legal and lawful would be
00:21:26.040 on the legal side it would be how how a human looks at another human how a man looks at a man and you
00:21:34.200 just see the outer shell what you see is on the outside but lawful uh on the interior is how god would perceive
00:21:44.360 man he would look on the inside in the core and in the sustenance of the character and the morality and
00:21:52.600 and and what it is that that makes that person tick so it's it's a much deeper stronger understanding of the system
00:22:01.880 and you know a lawful um is the charter of rights is clearly lawful and it deals with human rights issues
00:22:10.200 whereas on the legal side we have the health minister's decision that you should be charged which
00:22:15.160 is in total conflict with the lawful side so i don't see i i'm i'm an individual who doesn't see
00:22:23.080 how there could be a misunderstanding on these issues clearly the the health mandates that have
00:22:30.360 come about are clearly unlawful and they are they are not to be enforced how they're being enforced is uh
00:22:41.160 is a real travesty in this country especially with all the layers of protection that we currently have
00:22:46.600 in place that has not been suspended under campaigns you're going to find church resources
00:22:55.320 resources and then under church resources you will find so many different uh resource tabs there so
00:23:02.440 one of those would be um you know tanya god delivering a message to to the churches protect faith family and
00:23:10.840 freedom the next tab is our webinar which is actually a hundred an hour and 40 minute webinar talking about
00:23:19.160 um you know the deceptive ploys and tactics of the government and and to sway and mislead and
00:23:24.760 deceive and along with other things uh then we have a tab in their freedom and rights notice a printable pdf
00:23:32.280 file after that we have actually our charter rights and freedoms clergymen so uh section 176 that
00:23:39.080 constable vincent jerseys just went over so a printed copy of that we also have this no trespass signage
00:23:46.200 uh which why don't you just cut right into it since i'm on this document right now uh constable vincent just
00:23:51.880 to share where to post this uh at at the church yeah so a great location to post this would be um
00:24:01.240 right at the entrance to the driveway of your property so anybody prepared to to turn on to your
00:24:08.120 driveway let's say they make the turn on your driveway and they're coming up to an area where
00:24:11.960 there could be a gate just prior to the gate have this sign and have something bring attention to it you
00:24:18.440 can say uh you can put another sign next to it well it does say trespass notice and and it's quite large
00:24:24.600 and it says private property but you could put an additional sign above it that says uh police read
00:24:30.440 below or law enforcement read carefully something bring attention to law enforcement you need to read
00:24:37.320 this and they need to understand this because as i said there are many law enforcement agencies that are
00:24:43.400 not aware of section 176 and this not only applies to police but uh by law as well because quite often
00:24:51.960 it's in in a lot of areas it's by law that are issuing the charges and you want the by law to know that
00:24:57.320 they are also going to be violating a criminal code section if they come during the times of your your church
00:25:05.240 process that's awesome thank you uh so along the the lines again what we have here interactions with
00:25:13.880 government agent police and clergy and then we have also file a complaint against law enforcement um
00:25:21.480 vincent you want to share a little bit more about that because there is a process as well too
00:25:27.080 yeah so uh the filing a complaint process is different in every province and i can see here uh somewhere in
00:25:34.440 there yeah it's all laid out for you by province which is fantastic you don't really have to do
00:25:39.320 any homework just come to this page and all the information is there for you just have to click on
00:25:44.200 the hyperlink and it'll take you right to the complaint process depending on the province that
00:25:48.840 you're in um i can describe the one in ontario but you know it's going to be different in every
00:25:54.280 province that the the complaint processes are usually the same they're somewhat independent
00:25:59.800 independent um and then depending on your province it could be somewhat independent and um there will
00:26:06.600 be a file number so just make sure that when you do file a complaint before you exit out if it's an
00:26:12.280 online procedure or if you're speaking to somebody on the phone that you do get a case number or a
00:26:18.520 complaint number you want to make sure you have the incident number uh with you because everything is
00:26:24.600 relative to an incident number so always get that number so let's let's see uh if we'd love to field
00:26:30.280 some questions that you have yeah there was a there was a question in the chat by um paul uh kamonko
00:26:37.560 uh just so you know paul he says we're being told that the current lockdowns override the constitution
00:26:43.800 and the charter of rights um that is not true the the lockdowns um many of the laws and enforcement
00:26:53.080 strategies are violating our charter of rights but our charter of rights have not been suspended
00:27:00.360 technically there is a notwithstanding clause in the charter that says the government may suspend
00:27:05.880 your rights where the government um indicates and proves demonstrably uh why they need to be suspended
00:27:13.160 and the test for proving why they need to suspend your rights is is substantial and the government has
00:27:19.480 never done that they have never provided the data or proof they're just ignoring it that's what they're
00:27:25.240 doing they're ignoring our rights but they have not suspended them and uh this is a big problem you
00:27:31.240 know they think we're just going to write another law and yeah it kind of violates your rights but so
00:27:35.160 what it's a big deal and it's something we cannot tolerate and that's why when when these charges come
00:27:41.160 before the courts um whether you're representing yourself or somebody else is representing you
00:27:47.960 you need to always state on your first appearance when you're at court that you are going to be
00:27:53.400 challenging your constitutional rights on this charge and when the prosecutor knows you're going
00:27:59.800 to be doing that they cannot defend that issue and and once you've once you've indicated you're going
00:28:07.080 to be making a claim that your rights have been violated it's going to get thrown out because they
00:28:13.080 can't prove the government cannot prove why it was necessary to violate your rights and so they are
00:28:18.680 getting thrown out they're all getting thrown out i could just add to that vincent paul has asked where
00:28:24.040 that document is if you look up the federal emergency act it actually states and i'm going to paraphrase it
00:28:31.000 but that no order supersedes the bill of rights the charter of rights and the what was the universal
00:28:37.720 declaration or something on human rights um so it's really clear and uh even though justin trudeau has
00:28:43.480 not enacted it um he has not enacted if this was truly a an emergency a pandemic don't you think the
00:28:50.920 government would have put that in place but trudeau has chosen not to because if he puts the emergency
00:28:56.920 federal act in place then the he would lose uh power if things would have to go before the legislature
00:29:04.040 they would have to prove demonstrably due to section one of the charter that this actually
00:29:09.240 is an emergency and pandemic and of course they can't do that so he's making these backroom deals
00:29:14.120 with the premiers and counting on them to do the dirty work and put these um unlawful orders in place
00:29:21.640 any of these bills like um i don't know what province you're in we have bill uh c19 in bc i think
00:29:28.360 it's bill 195 in ontario bill c10 in alberta and there are these uh provincial emergency orders but
00:29:36.040 they bypass the legislature it's in violation when your mla no longer represents you that's actually a
00:29:43.160 violation of the content constitution act of 1867 so there's nothing legal about what they're doing
00:29:48.680 they're pretending that what they're doing and they're they're very convincing uh to the public
00:29:53.720 that this is how it is action for canada is taking legal action in the form of having retained rocco
00:30:00.040 galati and we're doing a constitutional challenge and we're taking on the bc and federal government
00:30:05.560 to overturn bill 19 you can't ask them pretty please will you you know remove that bill even though they
00:30:11.160 did it unlawfully so we are taking action we're doing a lot of work and uh to defend the rights of
00:30:18.120 every canadian yeah and in ontario we have an ontario provincial emergency measures act so there's
00:30:25.080 a federal emergency measures act and a provincial emergency measures act and both of them say pursuant
00:30:32.200 to the canadian charter of rights so right yeah they're just ignoring your rights they're they haven't
00:30:38.920 they haven't revoked them they're just ignoring them and and you know we know you cannot do that that
00:30:45.800 that that is a big part of being a canadian is having these rights and you know it's uh it's a
00:30:51.400 it's a huge joke that somebody would think it's okay to just ignore your rights we don't we don't
00:30:59.160 well and the other thing yeah again to add to that vincent is that it's not even that the government has
00:31:03.800 taken them away canadians have just handed them over you have every right to go to work and make a
00:31:08.840 living for your family you have every right to go to assemble and the freedom of religion and that's
00:31:13.800 why these tickets uh you know that they're writing none of them are coming to fruition the courts
00:31:19.320 aren't approving them because they absolutely 100 percent know it's in violation of the constitution
00:31:25.160 and charter rights and freedoms i really think i need to stress to you that uh you need to tell
00:31:30.760 people and especially the pastors here on the obstruction charge which we see most pastors
00:31:37.000 being being being arrested under obstruction bringing back to the legal side the unlawful
00:31:44.440 sides not being or the lawful sides not being represented and the police are actually being
00:31:49.160 unlawful in this in this area which then is using the constitution to their benefit if they're investigating
00:31:55.800 uh anything they have the right to arrest if you interfere with with the investigation this is where most
00:32:04.520 pastors we see poloski we see uh grace life we see um the baptist church allowing people into their
00:32:12.600 churches have allowed them to then also obstruct the services or they're obstructing the services but
00:32:19.880 at the same time they're obstructing investigation with the police yep so there's there is a way to
00:32:26.600 vocalize your concern and be uh forceful and tactful by indicating that you want them to
00:32:34.360 get out of your process to get out of your church to get out of the ceremony and the service that you
00:32:41.640 are holding because it's a 176 violation but that's being vocal to stand in the way of somebody who's
00:32:49.720 trying to get past you or to try to physically grab or hold or block i would never suggest that you do
00:32:56.760 that because that could be uh an obstruction under the criminal code but to stand there to stand your
00:33:03.240 ground and to vocalize your concerns and to vocalize section 176 and to tell them to leave
00:33:10.280 that is not an obstruction so feel free to do that just don't uh don't block their car or you know you
00:33:18.520 can't grab them you can't get physical with them not that i suggest you would nor has any pastor that i'm
00:33:24.360 aware of but you can certainly be vocal for sure i do have to say though when you come into an
00:33:34.040 argument with an officer and you can't obstruct them in that point can you know this is what i've been
00:33:40.120 seeing well they'll charge you they'll charge you with obstruct if you do not identify that's why i say
00:33:47.000 you know when they're when you're asked to identify you must identify and so you can be one up on that
00:33:53.080 by identifying before they even ask you to identify you've already identified so that's having the upper
00:33:59.320 hand on that it's not like they had to ask you you just volunteered it right up front but if you do not
00:34:05.480 if you do not provide your identification then they will consider that as an obstruction
00:34:10.920 right right and now i i can't speak on on some things that we have done in our body our church
00:34:19.240 is with tanya and glotti there um but i wanted to say on the trust back part of it that uh in our
00:34:26.680 situation we had our signs posted at the post and they still failed to read those signs so my
00:34:35.800 encouragement to other pastors here when these things do take place that they have them
00:34:40.760 formed in paper uh to give them as they speak and not to allow them that inform them that they're
00:34:49.880 not going to obstruct their investigation but inform them of their right yeah and in addition what i've
00:34:58.120 seen uh that actually works quite well is if you do form a small but effective security team i've seen it
00:35:06.440 where you can have one or two say two individuals at the entrance of the driveway um sort of um
00:35:14.600 screening the vehicles as they come in and if law enforcement comes in then you can actually talk to
00:35:21.400 them there at the entrance and have that discussion at the entrance to the driveway similarly
00:35:27.400 uh some have two-way radios and they would radio ahead to the security team that's in the church
00:35:34.360 and say the police are now on site just letting you know and when um when there there's been cases
00:35:41.480 where service is taking place uh police have shown up and the security team has when the service starts the
00:35:49.160 security team puts a chain across the entrance to the driveway so it's already chained across and they stand
00:35:55.320 away from that chain so they're not in a position to open it or unlock it they'll stay a substantial
00:36:01.320 distance away from the chain and so that blocks the police vehicles from coming in but if the officer
00:36:06.760 gets out of the vehicle and starts walking toward the church they go into the church the security team
00:36:12.760 goes into the church and they and they lock the doors and they actually have one-way mirror reflective
00:36:20.440 film on the door and then they just lock the door and go inside so there is no face-to-face contact
00:36:26.360 with the police and the police have no way of getting into the church because the door is now locked
00:36:31.320 so that just that just resolves that confrontation and i've seen that happen but if you're going to stand
00:36:38.120 there and have conversation and they're telling you to open the door they may consider that an
00:36:42.840 obstruction but if you go in and lock the door and disappear there's no one there for them to to blame for that
00:36:50.440 so