In this episode, Dr. Kelly Palfe discusses the prevalence of male sexual abuse in Canada and discusses the role of Sheldon Kennedy, who was one of the first male victims of sexual abuse to speak publicly about his abuse.
00:00:30.000Hi, I'm Dr. Kelly Palfe. I'm a registered psychologist. I'm also a retired police lady, and I specialize in working with adult male survivors of sexual abuse.
00:00:41.840I actually researched the subject and wrote a book about it.
00:00:45.160And today I'm here to talk about male sexual abuse and the prevalence because I believe it's a very hidden epidemic.
00:00:51.120So by means of getting started or by ways of getting started, I'd like everyone to think about a boy or man in your life that you think might possibly be a male survivor of sexual abuse.
00:01:02.660Could be your cousin, maybe your nephew, maybe your best friend's brother or something like that.
00:01:08.580That man that, you know, sort of took a different path in life, maybe went off the rails a little bit, maybe kind of turned to alcohol or drugs and maybe even a life of crime.
00:01:17.400Which doesn't make any sense to you because you saw the way he was brought up. He was brought up in a good home.
00:01:23.980Now he's probably never going to have said to you that he was a survivor of sexual abuse, but research does show that if he was abused, he's probably never told anybody that he was.
00:01:34.080Although the research is now dated, anonymous research conducted shows that males are sexually assaulted at a rate of approximately one out of every six males.
00:01:42.780We know that females are assaulted at a rate of about one of every three.
00:01:47.280As a former police lady and as a researcher, I know that only about 8% of crimes account for male sexual abuse.
00:01:55.420So we know that the prevalence of sexual abuse is about half as much as the woman, but the degree of reporting is only about 8%.
00:02:02.400So we've got to ask ourselves, why is this if we know it's existing?
00:02:06.060By now, I suspect you might be wondering why me as a woman am advocating for male survivors of sexual abuse, since I'm clearly not one.
00:02:15.060Like I mentioned earlier, I became aware of this situation when I was a police lady.
00:02:19.320I first became familiar with males as victims of sexual abuse when I was working in the Integrated Child Sexual Exploitation Unit in the RCMP.
00:02:28.600So in the early 2000s, we started up this program in response to a problem that already existed.
00:02:34.000Briefly, in the U.S., a postal service worker noticed that there was an unusually large number of suspicious packages all coming from the same location that were going out.
00:02:46.100So they got curious about all these packages, and in collaboration with the Department of Homeland Security, they conducted a joint investigation.
00:02:54.460They opened a few of these packages, and what they discovered was that they all contained child pornographic images.
00:03:00.560These images were all purchased via credit card.
00:03:03.160So they furthered their investigation and obtained all of the credit card numbers and names of all the offenders who had purchased these illicit images.
00:03:15.060So if memory serves me correctly, we had about 350 Canadians that were on that list, about 90 of which lived in British Columbia, which is where I was living at the time.
00:03:24.000So we researched how to investigate these crimes.
00:03:27.640Then we established a unit, and we started to teach other agencies within BC how to do the same thing, how to investigate these offenses, the ones that were occurring in their jurisdiction.
00:03:37.900So during that time, the RCMP was training me to be a subject matter expert.
00:03:42.220And on one of my many training courses, Sheldon Kennedy came and gave us a private lecture.
00:03:48.840Now, for anybody who's not familiar with Sheldon Kennedy, he's a former pro hockey player, and he was one of the first males to ever come forward and speak publicly about male sexual abuse.
00:03:57.960So he came and gave us seasoned sex crimes investigators a private lecture about his abuse.
00:04:03.680He talked about how his abuse, how it got started, where it took place and how, and he also talked about why he didn't talk about his abuse sooner.
00:04:12.720He said, you know, he had been raised in poverty, and his new career was literally lifting his family out of poverty.
00:04:20.860He also knew that his parents were super proud of him.
00:04:30.380He knew he had the skill set to go pro, and he knew his coach, Graham James, had the means to get him to where he wanted to go.
00:04:38.620So he knew also that if he reported his abuse, that his chances of making the NHL were minimized.
00:04:44.860He also told us about how he believed, this was the one that really broke my heart.
00:04:50.140He said he thought that other parents of his teammates knew, or at least should have known, that he was being sexually abused, but did nothing.
00:05:03.920I could not believe that a parent would ignore childhood sexual abuse and put their own personal child's needs above another child.
00:05:11.940I mean, it just blew my mind, and my heart really went out to Sheldon Kennedy, and I started to think about all the other men that might be in his situation.
00:05:19.620Prior to being a police officer, I was a corrections officer, and at that time, I remember working in prisons and wondering, why are there so many men in prison, I mean, compared to women?
00:05:32.780And when Sheldon Kennedy started talking about how he'd turned to alcohol and drugs, I started to see that maybe there were other men that might be in this situation that would turn to alcohol and drugs, and I knew that was a slippery slope.
00:05:45.540I wanted to do more to help him, but here I was working in the child sexual exploitation unit, and we were being bombed with files that were coming in.
00:05:55.360Another thing that Sheldon Kennedy talked about was this, he said he was living a double life.
00:06:00.140That's the piece that I really related to, because in some ways, I was living a double life, too.
00:06:05.440I mean, here I was on the top of my game, career-wise, working in major crimes, but I was being bullied, and I mean, there were times when I would run out of the room and go to the exhibit locker and bawl my eyes out, and I was crying almost every day by the time I got home after work, and I was just shutting down physically.
00:06:35.540He didn't have that yet, so my heart just really went out to him.
00:06:39.020And, you know, there I was in school, and one day one of my professors mentioned that he worked at this place called the BC Society for Male Survivors of Sexual Abuse.
00:06:46.020And it was like this little light went on inside of me, and I just remembered Sheldon Kennedy's lecture.
00:06:51.780I remembered how passionate I'd felt about wanting to do more, and I started to think, you know, with my background in policing and what I'd seen, maybe I could make a difference for boys and men.
00:07:02.160If you're still not convinced that male sexual abuse is as prevalent as I am trying to say that it is, you don't have to take just my word for it.
00:07:09.860The RCMP website shows that there's over 700 sex offender registry sites in Canada alone.
00:07:17.460That's 43,000 sex offenders that are living outside of custody in Canada at any given time.
00:07:24.440That's approximately one offender for every 850 people in Canada.
00:07:28.580We know from what offenders tell us that offenders have, on average, 150 victims each across their lifetime.
00:07:37.980That's a lot of male victims living in Canada.
00:07:40.360Another statistic that should be of concern to us is that in Canada, males are known to complete suicide at a rate of 3.5 times more frequently than females.
00:07:51.800Could this be because there's a hidden epidemic?
00:07:53.520Research out of Iceland titled Deep and Unbearable Consequences of Childhood Sexual Abuse supports this.
00:08:03.220As the title implies, the researchers looked at the consequences of childhood sexual abuse.
00:08:08.900They took a sample of 14 Icelandic men who had all been sexually abused and who had all lived with a profound sense of depression their entire lives.
00:08:16.980Each of these men said nothing until they got to this place in their life where they were either going to report their abuse or kill themselves.
00:08:25.300I personally believe that at least part of the reason why these statistics are so much higher than females,
00:08:31.000males don't have the same resources as females do to help them navigate trauma and sexual abuse.
00:08:36.200Part of the reason for this, of course, is because we know that males don't talk about sexual abuse.
00:08:40.800Research shows that boys and men will not talk about things that they don't hear other boys and men talking about.
00:08:46.980So the good news is you and I get to be part of the solution.
00:08:50.300By being here, by having these conversations, we are creating awareness and we are making it safe for boys and men to come forward.
00:09:16.980So today, what I'm going to talk about is why males are not reporting abuse.
00:09:23.280In the time that we have together, I'm going to explain where and how abuse is occurring and why we are missing it in society.
00:09:31.420Research shows that despite its prevalence, very few boys are ever coming forward and disclosing abuse.
00:09:37.240We all know male survivors. We just don't know who they are.
00:09:40.940So, get ready. Today, we're going to talk about some things that we don't normally talk about.
00:09:45.840It's necessary to discuss these topics in order for us to understand some of the more common reasons why boys and men are not disclosing.
00:09:54.160That being the confusion and shame that they often feel about the previous relationships that they had with their offenders.
00:10:00.940These are not light or easy topics, but they are necessary.
00:10:04.000We need to be more aware so that we can prevent childhood sexual abuse or be better supports to male victims who are not coming forward but might be coping with their abuse in different ways.
00:10:15.820Before I get into the slightly heavier stuff, I want to explain a few psychological processes that are at play in all of us that kind of keep us from seeing this in society, that kind of keep the problem hidden.
00:10:27.560Being more aware of these processes will help you to understand how and why we are missing this in society.
00:10:34.900So, by way of getting started, I want to ask all parents watching to think about a time when they might have let their child go alone on an overnight school trip or to a family member's house for a sleepover or maybe even just to one of their friends' house for a sleepover.
00:10:51.560I can imagine that, you know, because I've said this and because you know what we're here to discuss, you might be getting this little feeling of uneasiness sort of developing inside of you.
00:11:02.340In this moment, I want you to just pause and take note of what that feeling is inside of you.
00:11:09.440Maybe your jaw clenched or your stomach dropped or your chest tightened or you got the butterflies or your gut shaky or something like that.
00:11:17.680Basically, what I'm saying is maybe you had a bit of a gut response.
00:11:20.760Just take note of what's going on inside of you right now.
00:11:24.040Physiologically, God made you so brilliantly that sometimes we're able to pick up on things like microaggressions or very quick facial expressions that we might just catch a quick glimpse of, but they don't really register consciously.
00:11:37.260We know from research that we actually have neuroreceptors in our gut.
00:11:41.860So, these neuroreceptors actually can receive and process a lot more information than the brain in our head can process.
00:11:48.260An example of this might be, you know, when you're out hiking or something and all of a sudden you sense danger and you kind of look around to find out where the danger is.
00:11:56.040Knowing this guttural response, I want you to think about a time in your life when you might have ignored that guttural response or maybe a time when you ignored the Holy Spirit telling you something.
00:12:05.540We've all done it, but it's not a nice feeling, right?
00:12:09.240You know, that time when maybe you should have not taken that job or you should have set a stronger boundary for yourself or you should have maybe not gone on that date or not agreed to meet somebody.
00:12:21.860Unfortunately, it can be dangerous, too, right?
00:12:24.920In those occasions where maybe we shouldn't be ignoring our gut instinct.
00:12:28.800As a police lady, I relied a lot on my gut instincts and were trained to ignore those ignoring instincts.
00:12:34.840Unfortunately, the dangerous thing is that unless we're aware of the importance and how our gut instincts work, we can actually ignore them in times when we really shouldn't.
00:12:44.060Every day, highly intelligent people choose to ignore gut instincts.
00:12:53.120For example, we might get ever so slight of a glimpse of a child that you think might be in danger or doesn't look very happy at all.
00:13:00.220And we get this quick thought go through our mind, oh, that child's probably being abused.
00:13:04.420And then we might choose to ignore that instinct or we'll do something like hope somebody else will deal with the situation.
00:13:11.340There's a term for this ignoring process.
00:13:13.160It's called willful blindness, and we all do it.
00:13:16.420Aiding and abetting this process, we actually have neuroreceptors in our brain that are hardwired to help us reject, deny, trivialize, minimize information that might cause us to be in conflict with other people.
00:13:29.460We are actually hardwired to avoid conflict.
00:13:33.260Willful blindness also happens when we're challenged too aggressively.
00:13:37.020There's an author named Dr. Margaret Heffernan who wrote a book called Willful Blindness.
00:13:41.360And in the book, she gives the example of a woman who sees her husband coming out of her daughter's bedroom and she believes he has an erection.
00:13:49.900She's distraught by this thought, but she puts her daughter first and decides to confront her husband.
00:13:54.900Well, when she confronts him, he challenges her so aggressively saying that that is disgusting.
00:13:59.380I can't believe you thought that about me.
00:14:01.980And if you think that little about me, maybe we should just get a divorce right now.
00:14:06.060And, you know, she starts to renege her decision because, you know, she did challenge her husband and he absolutely denied the accusation.
00:14:12.840And he made her feel ashamed for having even thought that.
00:14:15.860So she tells herself that she must not have seen what she saw and decides that, you know, I guess I was wrong.
00:14:24.540Until years later when her child's doctor tells her that there's actually evidence of sexual abuse.
00:15:25.020As I discuss these things, you will become more aware of why so many boys and men are staying silent.
00:15:31.040Part of the reason is it's a societal issue.
00:15:33.320From their youth, traditionally, at least in Western culture, boys and men are raised to believe that real men are not victims.
00:15:42.000Real men can always protect themselves.
00:15:44.540And of course, real men never turn down sex.
00:15:47.320I mean, at least not in the secular world.
00:15:49.340These and many, many other similar type messages often put a lot of pressure on men and confuse men.
00:15:56.000Men might think, well, even if they do recognize that they're victimized, they might say, well, if real men aren't victims and I'm a victim, what does that mean about me?
00:16:07.000So far, we've discussed two of the reasons why people in society are naive to this subject.
00:16:12.660One being that boys and men are not reporting their abuse.
00:16:15.880And two being that we engage in this process of willful blindness and actually ignore our gut instincts.
00:16:21.700By the way, we all think that someone else will deal with these situations.
00:16:25.780If we do see a situation where we think, oh, that child's being abused, we still engage in this process of willful blindness where we say,
00:16:32.720someone else probably has better access or actual knowledge or more information, or surely someone who's closer to them will deal with this.
00:16:45.880Next, we're going to talk about the grooming process that most offenders engage in, a process which keeps the victims confused.
00:17:10.580Research shows that around 94% of all childhood sexual abuse is perpetrated by someone the victim knows, trusts, maybe even loves.
00:17:21.380I'm sure a lot of people might be wondering now, well, where is this happening? Come on.
00:17:25.580Grooming is a term that is used to describe the very well-orchestrated, very deceptive, very manipulative process that most offenders engage in prior to engaging in acts of abuse.
00:17:37.980These actions, these gestures, they are not harmful nor illegal in and of themselves, and they are all designed with the intent to manipulate the victim, the victim's family, society, everybody.
00:17:51.900The grooming process is also why so many male victims are confused about whether or not they were abused.
00:18:07.020First, we have to understand why boys and men are so confused.
00:18:10.820Second, I want you to be able to recognize the warning signs of a child being groomed or an offender trying to maybe have access to children.
00:18:19.100And third, that if you have a boy or man in your life, that you can be more supportive of them versus judgmental.
00:18:25.380Now, you may be sitting there saying, I would never be judgmental, but sometimes it happens by accident.
00:18:31.380I once worked with a male client who had been orally violated in his youth many times, and understandably, he developed an aversion to his own toothbrush.
00:18:41.180So he stopped brushing his teeth for years, and also, unfortunately, since he had his adult teeth, it did a considerable amount of damage, damage, which he sought to rectify in his adulthood.
00:18:52.940He saved up $30,000, went to the dentist, fully prepared to get his mouth fixed.
00:21:45.840They will do anything that they can do to put on this facade of becoming the least likely person you would ever suspect would harm a child.
00:21:54.800It's also necessary for them to groom themselves right before they commit their crimes.
00:21:59.640They will have to give themselves a pep talk, so to speak.
00:22:02.180So they might say things to themselves like, that child needs to learn about sex anyways.
00:22:12.520Or, better for them to learn it from me because I'm going to be nice or gentle versus one of those violent types offenders, which I'm not.
00:22:19.720They also groom the environments that they're in.
00:22:21.980And so they will have lots of children that they do not offend against, allies for themselves, who will swear vehemently that they never offended against them.
00:22:31.400And then they will groom the parents of the potential victim as well, if necessary.
00:24:39.040One type is called a situational sex offender, and as the name implies, they will offend against either gender, any age, any time an opportunity arises.
00:24:51.120The second type is a preferential child molester.
00:24:54.040Now these offenders have a specific gender and age preference, so they have to create their own environments.
00:25:01.800Offenders are thought to have a radar for vulnerable children.
00:25:04.560Vulnerable children could include those having problems with their peers, or having problems at home, or having problems in school, those isolating themselves, the odd kid, the kid that doesn't fit in.
00:25:17.260So you might be thinking at this time, okay, thank goodness, my child is fitting in.
00:25:27.240Offenders will work really hard to figure out what a child's vulnerability is, and every child has them.
00:25:33.440In Aaron's particular case, Aaron had noticed that he was a late bloomer compared to his peers, so he was a little self-conscious about this.
00:25:43.380Stage two, he goes in search of a target.
00:26:10.200Become attentive to their needs and the needs of their parent.
00:26:13.780Before he ever committed any acts of offending against Aaron, Aaron's offender actually befriended his family.
00:26:20.060Offenders will move mountains to fill any voids, either in the child or in the parent.
00:26:24.500So, for example, a parent's needs might be they're too busy to drive their son to basketball, so the offender would volunteer to come pick the child up and take them.
00:26:33.780So, at camp, Aaron's offender identified him as the hardest working kid in camp and actually offered him a job of staying after camp to help him break down camp.
00:26:43.400He may have offered to pay Aaron, I don't know.
00:26:45.420But I do know that he did ask Aaron's parents' permission, and they said yes.
00:26:50.600They said yes because they trusted him.
00:26:53.100They trusted him enough to leave their son alone with him for three days in a bush camp with no cell phone, 60 miles from home.
00:27:28.920And by the way, this physical contact is often done in front of the parent.
00:27:33.160This sends the message to the child that it's okay for the offender to be touching them, that they have the parent's consent.
00:27:40.140Next, the offender might encourage them while they're roughhousing to take their shirts off.
00:27:45.640Then they will progressively work to a situation where the child has to change their clothes, use the washroom, spend the night, or all of the above.
00:27:54.800Now we're on to stage five where the offender will create the opportunity to be alone with their victim and introduce more masculine principles.
00:28:01.960So as soon as everyone else had left camp, Aaron's offender offered to teach him how to drive a vehicle and allowed him to drive the camp truck.
00:28:10.960So he started treating Aaron as if he was older than he was.
00:28:15.060He might have also started using coarse language around him, roughhousing, that kind of thing.
00:28:20.060And by the end of that day, after they'd worked hard together and they were manning around together, Aaron's offender offered him his first beer.
00:28:27.040But he also probably told Aaron, now you can't tell your parents this because if you tell your parents that I let you drive and let you have a beer, we're both going to be in trouble.
00:28:51.860They will say, you know, in their own mind, they'll rationalize.
00:28:55.160It's way better for me to get reported on for having given my victim a beer or sworn around him or allowed him to drive a truck or smoke than to be reported on for sexually offending.
00:29:06.460Once the intended victim complies, the expectation of secrecy is now established.
00:29:13.980He began treating Aaron more like he was a man than the prepubescent boy that he was.
00:29:19.940Now we're on to stage six, which is the beginning of the sexual process.
00:29:24.600Offenders will oftentimes begin their sexual process by asking their intended victim what they already know about sex.
00:29:32.460So in Aaron's instance, Aaron's offender gave him a beer and asked him what he knew about sex.
00:29:37.380He also started teasing him about masturbation and said things like, I know you're already doing that.
00:29:43.300His offender then gave him a stack of pornographic magazines, likely under the guise of, you probably weren't expecting to be here for an extra three days.
00:29:51.160So I know you didn't bring your own stash.
00:29:52.880So I'll lend you some of mine while you're here.
00:30:05.340Aaron's offender knew he complied because he had peepholes drilled into the washroom.
00:30:10.580The next day, they went about their business as normal.
00:30:13.920They broke down the camp, manned around a bit more, and that night they drank more beer together and he gave him more pornographic magazines.
00:30:21.280The following day, he actually came into Aaron's room while he was masturbating.
00:30:31.420But Aaron's offender just sat down on the bed beside him and told him that he had nothing to be ashamed of, nothing to worry about.
00:30:38.480He said this is what guys do when they're alone.
00:30:41.120Before Aaron could get up and leave, his offender simply plopped down a whole other stack of magazines and tried to pique Aaron's interest.
00:30:48.660These magazines were more graphic than the last ones, and they actually contained images of men with men.
00:30:53.760Aaron asked him, he said, are you trying to make me gay?
00:30:56.980And his offender got really angry and aggressive and said, don't use that word around me.
00:32:03.080It's very visible when a man is aroused.
00:32:05.540And of course, the offenders will use this against them.
00:32:08.360They'll say things like, oh, look, you're enjoying yourself.
00:32:11.340And tell them, oh, look, you must have enjoyed it.
00:32:13.820Even outside of abuse situations, it is not uncommon for boys and men to get aroused during anxiety-provoking situations, even during trauma.
00:32:23.120Comedic movies make fun of this, right?
00:32:24.820There's lots of movies that show a young boy getting an erection during math class and trying to hide it.
00:32:29.720But after a boy or man's been abused, they forget these instances.
00:32:33.300And they remember only what they learned about how real men are not victims.
00:32:36.700And they tell themselves that they must not have been victims, but maybe willing participants.
00:32:42.140Even though they remember that the abuse began as abuse and that they were not consenting, they think to themselves, well, maybe I changed my mind halfway through.
00:33:25.820So adding to this confusion, Aaron's coach drove him home, walked him to the door, shook his father's hands, patted him on the shoulder, and said goodbye and left as if nothing bad had happened.
00:33:40.060Aaron went into the house, went straight into the washroom, and tried to just shower off his abuse.
00:34:05.460Their older son had been to that same camp the year prior and hadn't said anything bad had happened.
00:34:10.940Yes, vulnerable children are more susceptible, but the reality is any child from any ethnic background, from any socioeconomic background, from any race, can be victimized.
00:34:40.940So now that you're aware of the grooming process, you can better watch for a child being groomed, or an offender trying to have access to a child that's not their own.
00:34:55.280Also, watch for extreme behavior changes.
00:37:00.440The rest of Aaron's story is actually quite profound, and it's actually in my book.
00:37:04.380If anyone wants to know all the details about how when he grew up, he decided to become a lawyer and actually then went on to become an undercover FBI agent and aided in his own offenders arrest, the full story is in my book.
00:37:18.360Knowing what you know now about the profound level of confusion that boys and men often experience, how they're often very confused and ashamed,
00:37:26.000I want to take you back to that research where I discussed how boys and men are often so ashamed, so depressed, that they are faced with this idea of I either talk about it or kill myself.
00:37:38.220Doesn't it just make you wonder how many boys and men chose the alternative?
00:37:42.480We need to make it safe for boys and men to come forward.
00:37:45.700As was the case with Aaron, it is not uncommon for boys and men to stay silent.
00:37:50.500To stay silent, to isolate, to deny, to minimize, or to even rewrite their own histories of abuse.
00:37:58.320Sometimes they will try to convince themselves that it was something they enjoyed.
00:38:02.460Other men will cope through staying excessively busy, becoming workaholics.
00:38:10.340They'll use alcohol or drugs to try and numb out their memories.
00:38:14.300Others will engage in acts of hypersexuality or hypermasculinity.
00:38:19.000They do those kinds of things because they're often really just trying to prove to themselves that they are in fact real men.
00:38:25.640Some cope through isolation and unfortunately probably many cope through suicide.
00:38:31.620Avoidance, by the way, can look like the husband or father who is refusing to bathe his own children or change his own children's diapers or help his own children get dressed.
00:38:40.400Men often refuse to do this if they have histories of abuse because they're afraid that that myth, that if they were victimized, they are destined to become offenders, is true.
00:41:30.540This male, in this particular instance, was in his 20s and he was the youngest deacon in his church.
00:41:36.260One offender discussed how he acted if he was actually confronted.
00:41:39.460Basically, if you stay calm and look whoever it is in the eye, especially if the mother of the victim or the victim is there, you can just look at him and make him nervous.
00:41:49.940The more nervous you make him look, the more it looks like he's lying.
00:41:53.400Oh, by the way, offenders will often target children who have histories of lying because nobody believes them already anyways.
00:41:59.820In 2002, the authorities actually uncovered a pedophile ring alive and well within the Catholic Church.
00:42:05.880They suspected that in the over 50 years that it existed, that over 4,000 pedophiles were hidden within the Catholic Church.
00:42:13.680This story is profiled in the movie Spotlight, if you want to know more about it.
00:42:17.480Sadly, in the past, many churches have been fooled by nice guy type offenders.
00:42:22.260They worry more about their own reputations than supporting the victims.
00:42:25.400Oftentimes, churches will think, oh, I'm sure he's changed or something like that.
00:42:30.200This is a secondary traumatization for the victim.
00:42:33.480It is also a reason that many victims walk away from their faith.
00:42:36.880If they were abused by someone associated to the church or if the church failed to support them and, in fact, supported their abuser instead of them, they often walk away from their faith.
00:43:34.080I know this might be a very difficult concept to grasp given, you know, we talk about the goodness of God but then we don't understand suffering.
00:43:42.260Suffering can only be understood if we understand that evil doesn't come from God.
00:43:52.860One of the many promises in his word is that if we choose to follow him, if we choose to walk in his ways, that he will use even the most horrendous things that ever happened to you to develop you in his relationship with him.
00:44:06.140And if we are in a relationship with him, good things happen to us.
00:44:09.820Things like healing and deliverance from suffering.
00:44:12.060I know this may be a difficult concept to grasp and I know that you might be thinking no good could ever come out of having been sexually abused.