Alex Jones Show - 20051017_Mon_Alex

00:00:01.000 Big Brother.

00:00:07.000 Mainstream media.

00:00:09.000 Government cover-ups.

00:00:11.000 You want answers?

00:00:12.000 Well, so does he.

00:00:14.000 He's Alex Jones on the GCN Radio Network.

00:00:18.000 And now, live from Austin, Texas, Alex Jones.

00:00:22.000 Welcome, ladies and gentlemen.

00:00:35.000 It is Monday, the 17th day of October 2005.

00:00:40.000 Five.

00:00:41.000 We're going to be live for the next three hours, and my producer's gone absolutely crazy today.

00:00:48.000 We have five guests coming up, and we'll even squeeze some phone calls in, coming up in about 30 minutes.

00:00:55.000 Jeff Norman, Executive Director of U.S.

00:00:57.000 Tour of Duty, former CIA analyst Ray McGovern, and Gold Star mom who lost her son in Iraq, Nadia McCaffrey.

00:01:09.000 And then coming up in the middle of the broadcast, in an hour and a half, Nate Blakeslee, former editor of the Texas Observer, he broke the Tulia story for the Observer in 2000.

00:01:20.000 His new book, Tulia, Race, Cocaine, and Corruption in a Small Texas Town.

00:01:26.000 We'll be telling you the latest developments on Tulia and his new book with an inside view of it.

00:01:31.000 This is where they would just randomly, literally come in and just swoop up whole streets of black people And drag them off to be put in private prisons building widgets. 1.00

00:01:41.000 No drugs found. 0.83

00:01:42.000 No nothing.

00:01:45.000 This is your loving government and this can happen nationwide to everyone.

00:01:51.000 And then at one o'clock, Vicky Karp, voting activist with the Coalition for Visible Balance.

00:02:00.000 You know, I had a chance a few weeks ago to hear a speech Vicky had given locally on the radio.

00:02:04.000 It was aired, the entire speech.

00:02:06.000 And the way she just systematically went through the admitted fraud with these electronic touchscreen, no record voting machines and even the optical scan systems are fed through these systems, through these machines.

00:02:24.000 And I thought, you know, we haven't talked enough about election fraud and the system that's being put in place since 2004, the end of the last election, it's time to Time to bring some of the great folks on that are fighting this, so Vicki Karp will be joining us in the third hour for much of the third hour.

00:02:47.000 Senior military torture investigator has been found dead.

00:02:52.000 Investigating all of the torture.

00:02:52.000 Ah!

00:02:55.000 Wow, you had a bad day, didn't you?

00:02:58.000 Also, how is Karl Rove dealing with the open discussions of his impending indictment?

00:03:07.000 Well, the latest information is that Rove is out threatening judges, you name it.

00:03:13.000 Washington insider Rove threatens indictment of judge with consequences.

00:03:20.000 Threatens indictment judge with, quote, consequences.

00:03:23.000 And Time Magazine talks about Rove's contingency plan.

00:03:27.000 The president's advisor may step aside if indicted in the Valerie Plame case.

00:03:32.000 Oh boy.

00:03:33.000 And again, George Bush is just a puppet, so if the Globalists do decide to remove Bush, the party just continues on, but now we have to learn the names of all the new players who are the new frontmen. 0.59

00:03:47.000 They did the exact same thing with Nixon and many others.

00:03:52.000 Wilma ties Atlantic hurricane season record.

00:03:56.000 The 05 Atlantic hurricane season record tied a 72 year old record for the busiest ever with the formation of a tropical storm.

00:04:04.000 Wilma today will tell you about that as well.

00:04:08.000 What Wilma is threatening. 0.98

00:04:09.000 Rape up while murders down. 0.99

00:04:12.000 So there's the good and the bad. 0.96

00:04:14.000 Rape up while murders down in 04.

00:04:20.000 And Chinese spacecraft is back to Earth and they're welcomed as heroes.

00:04:24.000 Meanwhile, Matt Drudge is saying it's fake and that he could do a better job with Photoshop.

00:04:29.000 Well, we know you have before, Drudge, so certainly you're an expert in these type of things, so we'll take your word on that.

00:04:38.000 And we'll go over what he's saying with that report.

00:04:42.000 We've got a link to it up on InfoWars.com right now.

00:04:48.000 Iraqi civilians killed in U.S.

00:04:50.000 bombing.

00:04:50.000 We'll also talk about a lot of new surveillance technologies coming out.

00:04:56.000 It's all coming up on the other side of this break.

00:04:59.000 Stay with us.

00:05:01.000 Alex Jones here, announcing the release of my new film, Police State 3 Total Enslavement.

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00:05:15.000 The New World Order.

00:05:18.000 The film documents dozens of confirmed cases of government-sponsored terrorism worldwide.

00:05:22.000 We rip the Sinister Patriot Act legislation 1 and 2 apart, piece by piece, and reveal the arrogance of what Ashcroft has to say about your liberty.

00:05:29.000 You will lose your liberty.

00:05:32.000 Homeland Security, executive orders, forced vaccinations, the new prison economy, the Total Information Society, the Pan-American Union, federal gun grabs, government-run white slavery rings, and much, much more.

00:05:43.000 If you don't understand what the New World Order really is, then my new 2.5 hour video, Police State 3, is for you!

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00:07:59.000 Big Brother.

00:08:07.000 Mainstream media.

00:08:09.000 Government cover-ups.

00:08:11.000 You want answers?

00:08:12.000 Well, so does he.

00:08:14.000 He's Alex Jones on the GCN Radio Network.

00:08:18.000 And now, live from Austin, Texas, Alex Jones.

00:08:22.000 Welcome, my friends.

00:08:31.000 Eight minutes, 30 seconds.

00:08:33.000 We're now on the second segment of this Monday edition, the 17th day of October, 05-118.

00:08:38.000 05, a lot of big guests coming up today.

00:08:40.000 We'll be documenting the electronic voting machine fraud being put in place nationwide.

00:08:46.000 I mean, if you were powerful politicians and they're private corporate handlers and owners, wouldn't you want to seize control of the voting systems and have absolute power?

00:08:55.000 Well, the evidence is conclusive.

00:08:57.000 They would, and they have.

00:09:00.000 We'll also talk about the latest corruption involving Lord Cheney and Lord Bush, and these ongoing indictment rumblings.

00:09:09.000 And we've got former Chief CIA Analyst for Ronald Reagan, as well as George Bush Sr., Ray McGovern coming up, as well as the mother of a dead vet.

00:09:20.000 He's criticizing Lord Bush.

00:09:22.000 He's also part of Gold Star Veterans.

00:09:25.000 And that's all been hyped and made political.

00:09:28.000 But regardless, this war is a fraud and needs to end.

00:09:32.000 And really, nobody who's rubbing two brain cells together, who's got two brain cells to rub together, can deny that.

00:09:40.000 But look at this news.

00:09:42.000 Indonesia's president accuses Western intel of being behind the Bali bombings.

00:09:52.000 Now, we have a giant section on InfoWars.com and on PrisonPlanet.com about the Bali bombings on the eve of the invasion of Iraq.

00:10:03.000 Extremely unpopular with the British and Australian people, and then a nightclub full of Brits and Aussies gets bombed. 0.98

00:10:10.000 There are bombings of hotels.

00:10:13.000 The FBI is in the hotel minutes before, but pulls out.

00:10:17.000 Witnesses test and see Westerners involved with the planting of the bombs.

00:10:23.000 They test the bombs, or test some of the detritus of the bombs, some of what the bombs had left behind.

00:10:31.000 And, well, lo and behold, it was a type used by the U.S.

00:10:37.000 military.

00:10:38.000 And of course, we've caught the British military Running around dressed up like Arabs shooting people with bombs and carrying out bombings and we've caught the Israelis doing it and it's been in all the big Israeli papers. 0.63

00:10:53.000 So, to even try to wade into this discussion takes hours, and we've done many broadcasts on it, and I do have an upcoming film that gets into these other cases of terrorism that were government-sponsored.

00:11:06.000 But, just interesting to see this article.

00:11:08.000 Indonesian president accuses Western intel of being behind Bali bombings.

00:11:15.000 An extraordinary documentary produced by Australian Public Television, Inside Indonesia's War on Terrorism, will be rebroadcast this evening.

00:11:25.000 That means right now.

00:11:28.000 In the program which first aired on October 12th, the blind former president of Indonesia, Reportedly, more trusted than any other official in the country, told SBS TV Dateline Australia's state-run public TV that the horrendous Bali bombing, which killed more than 200 Indonesians, was planned and carried out by Indonesian police or military personnel at the behest of Western powers.

00:11:55.000 Well, the Indonesian government admits that in the 60s and 70s and 80s, They carried out bombings all over the country and blamed it on their enemies.

00:12:04.000 I mean, that's not even... That's the mainstream news right there.

00:12:09.000 Again, it's like Herman Roosevelt, 30-something years after he carried out bombings and sniper attacks with thousands of hired thugs in 1953 in Iran,

00:12:26.000 In the mid-eighties, he goes on and does an NPR interview, which I've heard, in which they re-aired segments of just a couple years ago, on NPR, where he brags about carrying out terror attacks to blame it on... ...Mozart!

00:12:41.000 Again, for those that are tuning in for the first time, do you understand?

00:12:45.000 This is not our opinion.

00:12:47.000 Twenty, thirty, forty years after the fact, our government admits they've carried out terror attacks to blame it on their enemies in Europe.

00:12:56.000 The Israelis admit they've done it. 1.00

00:12:57.000 The British constantly do it. 1.00

00:12:59.000 The Indonesians do it. 0.99

00:13:01.000 The Italians do it. 0.99

00:13:03.000 The Russians do it over and over again and have been caught red-handed.

00:13:09.000 But in many of these cases, they don't even try to hide it now.

00:13:12.000 They go on radio, like Herman Roosevelt did, and just brag about it.

00:13:18.000 He's proud of blowing up mosques and blaming it on people. 1.00

00:13:25.000 It's amazing.

00:13:27.000 So now he's basically coming out and saying this.

00:13:31.000 And by the way, about a year ago I had seen reports where he was saying this in Indonesian papers.

00:13:37.000 It's just now getting a little bit of traction because it's been in a major British slash Australian news report.

00:13:51.000 Again, this is my frustration.

00:13:52.000 This is why I go into overdrive so often.

00:13:55.000 This is why I start frothing at the bit, chomping at the bit, because... I could talk for the next three hours about this, but I don't have the time.

00:14:05.000 I've got five guests coming up.

00:14:08.000 But here it is.

00:14:09.000 And, you know, last week I didn't even cover an article out of St.

00:14:14.000 Louis where they announced that They're going to use your cell phone, the feds in the state are, in using Missouri as a test state, they're going to use your cell phones, not just transponders that are going to be in the inspection stickers that we barely beat this year in Texas, it would have been law next year, but they're still implementing despite not having a law, but side issue.

00:14:40.000 Well, it's a corollary issue.

00:14:44.000 It runs right alongside it simultaneously.

00:14:47.000 They just calmly announced that we're going to use your cell phone to track you from point to point and if you're speeding, we're going to give you a ticket.

00:15:01.000 If you're speeding, we're going to mail you a ticket off that cell phone.

00:15:06.000 And then of course there was another report out of a Saudi Arabian company, and they're already making it the law in Saudi Arabia, Where they are going to use transponders and the stickers and the inspection stickers and the cell phones and radio readers just different redundant systems to track everything you do and to tax you and that's going on here in the United States now being implemented.

00:15:33.000 Now, no one is for this.

00:15:35.000 Literally 99% of people are not for it.

00:15:39.000 But the government just doesn't care.

00:15:41.000 See, I thought it's a government of the people, for the people, by the people.

00:15:47.000 Innocent until proven guilty.

00:15:48.000 Due process.

00:15:50.000 Bush, a few months ago, signed the order that all of your prescriptions, everything you buy, that's prescription, whether it be a prosthesis, whether it be prescription strength, ibuprofen, everything you do, whether it be herpes medicine or a diaphragm,

00:16:13.000 Everything you, you go, Prozac, Ritalin, whatever, is instantly uploaded to a federal database every time you do it.

00:16:23.000 No pretense of Fourth Amendment.

00:16:26.000 No pretense of privacy.

00:16:28.000 Just zero!

00:16:33.000 And I sat here beating my head up against a wall for the five years before they implemented it.

00:16:40.000 Or at least six years.

00:16:42.000 In 2001, October 1st, 2001, all cell phones in the country, by law, that were to be sold from that point on, are satellite tracked down to 15 feet via cell towers.

00:16:57.000 The cell towers triangulate and then that's relayed to satellite and then that's beamed to FEMA data banks that then share that data with local emergency management FEMA command bases that are really federal command bases that have been built all over the country.

00:17:13.000 And I sat there after they passed the law that then was to be implemented in over the next five, six years People would email me, laugh at me, criticize me.

00:17:24.000 I had the law.

00:17:25.000 We posted it.

00:17:27.000 We warned people.

00:17:29.000 And then three, four years after it goes into effect, there are articles every single day in USA Today and Associated Press and St.

00:17:39.000 Louis Newspaper last week.

00:17:42.000 Oh, guess what?

00:17:43.000 We're going to use your cell phone to track your every movement for your safety.

00:17:47.000 Guess what?

00:17:48.000 We're going to give you tickets with it.

00:17:50.000 Guess what?

00:17:51.000 The government's going to have computers listening to you over your cell phone, but don't worry, you won't be charged minutes for it.

00:17:57.000 And don't try turning your phone off, because we can listen even with the phone off.

00:18:01.000 It's designed that way.

00:18:03.000 I mean, we willingly carry bugs around with us everywhere to track exactly where we're at.

00:18:10.000 Not even a pretense of due process or privacy or anything.

00:18:18.000 Meanwhile, the government is making everything they do sacred while leaving the borders wide open on top of it.

00:18:24.000 And we now have firing groups by the thousands, Dutch, British, and Mexican, in the New Orleans and surrounding areas.

00:18:33.000 Precedent-setting, again.

00:18:35.000 Precedent-setting stuff.

00:18:36.000 Every day, I see conservatively 20 articles.

00:18:43.000 It's more than that.

00:18:45.000 Get a chip.

00:18:46.000 It's good.

00:18:46.000 Get a chip and plant them.

00:18:48.000 Take them.

00:18:49.000 Now they're starting to say kooks are against it.

00:18:52.000 See they just kept repeating it millions of times until now.

00:18:55.000 We're all just sick of hearing about chips and now they're adding, no matter how crazy it sounds, oh weirdos don't like them.

00:19:01.000 I have a couple articles today.

00:19:02.000 Weirdos don't like them.

00:19:04.000 See now that's already started.

00:19:05.000 Weirdos don't like them.

00:19:09.000 Well I'm not a weirdo.

00:19:13.000 Missouri MayTrack cell phones for traffic data.

00:19:16.000 Here's the Casper Star Tribune.

00:19:23.000 I've got Missouri on my mind from last week.

00:19:27.000 This is Montana.

00:19:29.000 I can't get my head straight.

00:19:31.000 MayTrack cell phones for traffic data.

00:19:35.000 So it was Missouri last week, and Saudi Arabia, and Oregon, and now this week it's Montana.

00:19:44.000 It never ends.

00:19:46.000 Stacks of them.

00:19:47.000 Stacks of them.

00:19:49.000 Everything you do to be trapped.

00:19:54.000 Total control.

00:19:55.000 Taxation.

00:19:56.000 We'll be right back.

00:19:57.000 - Thank you so much, stay with us. - Hello, Ted Anderson here with Midas Resources.

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00:21:48.000 Hello, folks.

00:22:02.000 This is Alex Jones.

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00:24:00.000 I have an article to hear.

00:24:11.000 I have articles out of the saying.

00:24:13.000 Louis, I have articles out of Texas, I have articles out of Montana.

00:24:21.000 Headline, Montana may track cell phones for data traffic collection and it says that every move you make, everything you're doing will be wirelessly tracked down to exactly where you are and relayed into a state grid to quote, help other drivers.

00:24:37.000 Get around traffic and problems.

00:24:39.000 But of course, that's the Department of Transportation.

00:24:42.000 Then you have the Department of Public Safety.

00:24:45.000 They're going to be using it for law enforcement.

00:24:51.000 And I was just talking to John Harmon there in the break, who's answering the phones and running the show, and he said that their big chain of grocery stores up there in Minnesota That suddenly, at all the self-checkout lanes, they've put the thumb scanners in.

00:25:10.000 And we've read industry publications.

00:25:12.000 What they say they're going to do is, first they pull out all of the, or most of the, service checkout lines.

00:25:19.000 But at some, Albertsons and some other stores here in Texas now, there'll be one line with service and there's nobody ever there.

00:25:27.000 They literally have now forced people on.

00:25:30.000 So first they pull out a few of these self-checkout lines.

00:25:35.000 I'm having Freudian slips.

00:25:36.000 I wish they would pull those out.

00:25:38.000 First they pull out a few of these service checkout lines.

00:25:42.000 And then they start pulling out more and more of them until it's all self-serve.

00:25:51.000 Then they say there's fraud.

00:25:53.000 Now again, how did I eight years ago predict all of this?

00:25:58.000 Because it was in industry trade pub locations.

00:26:03.000 Not a crystal ball.

00:26:05.000 Okay?

00:26:07.000 You can go discover the prison they're building for you and your family as well.

00:26:11.000 You can fight it.

00:26:12.000 You just have to get involved and get informed and decide you don't want to be a slave.

00:26:19.000 So then after they've got in the self-service lanes, and they phase out the other lanes, then the thumb scanners go in.

00:26:29.000 And they say, oh, you'll get about a 10% discount on food and everything you buy if you thumb scan, if you enroll with us.

00:26:39.000 And that's already begun.

00:26:41.000 From upstate New York to certain areas of Texas to Minnesota, the reports are pouring in from London and in Berlin and Tokyo.

00:26:52.000 And people are now signing up, they're enrolling.

00:26:56.000 And then the next plan is, as we keep warning people, in 2008 they're going to simply say, okay, you've got to enroll in this now because of identity fraud.

00:27:08.000 Meanwhile, most identity fraud is caused by the companies buying and selling and trading huge chunks of consumer data with other companies.

00:27:17.000 That is where the lion's share of identity theft happens.

00:27:20.000 But they're going to convince you of the false data that this will keep you safe.

00:27:24.000 Again, they create the crisis and offer you the solution.

00:27:27.000 More shackles, more control.

00:27:29.000 John, give us a brief little update on your major food store chain there in Minneapolis-St.

00:27:35.000 Paul with the loving biometric scanners.

00:27:38.000 What type of scanners?

00:27:40.000 Uh, it's the Pay-By-Touch Scanners.

00:27:43.000 It's a thumb scan.

00:27:45.000 Speak up for me there, sir!

00:27:46.000 Is that better?

00:27:48.000 Yeah, that's better.

00:27:48.000 Say that again?

00:27:49.000 Yeah, it's at Cup Foods, you go to the self-checkout lines, and it's called the Pay-By-Touch Service, and it just automatically deducts right out of your bank account.

00:28:00.000 Are people enjoying that?

00:28:03.000 Uh, I haven't heard anybody sign up for it.

00:28:06.000 They said on the news that they already had two million sign-ups, but I don't believe that.

00:28:12.000 Well, what have you got in Minneapolis, St.

00:28:14.000 Paul?

00:28:14.000 About three, four million people?

00:28:16.000 Uh, yeah.

00:28:18.000 And so that would have to be that over half the entire metro area had just instantly signed up.

00:28:25.000 I guess so, yeah.

00:28:26.000 In fact, I remember that report about a month ago.

00:28:28.000 I saw a text report.

00:28:29.000 They claimed two million had signed up right there in those two cities alone.

00:28:32.000 That's obviously pure bull.

00:28:34.000 You know, we ought to go up there with a video camera and show no one using it, and then show how the newscasts are a bunch of liars.

00:28:43.000 I was thinking about doing that, and maybe interviewing the manager and getting some more information about it.

00:28:48.000 Well, if you went and did that, I'd put it on the website.

00:28:52.000 I'd really appreciate it.

00:28:54.000 And you know what?

00:28:54.000 Don't ask.

00:28:55.000 Never ask permission.

00:28:56.000 Just show up with a video camera.

00:28:59.000 And then kind of just stand there by the aisles and show no one using it.

00:29:03.000 And then talk to people as they leave the store.

00:29:06.000 Then a manager will come up and just tell him that you're doing a project.

00:29:10.000 And that you want a media project.

00:29:14.000 And that it is a project.

00:29:16.000 And that you want to talk to them.

00:29:19.000 And maybe he'll talk to you.

00:29:21.000 So, you've been going to the grocery store.

00:29:23.000 How long have these thumb scanners been in?

00:29:25.000 I just noticed it in the past week, actually.

00:29:28.000 So, they're fairly new.

00:29:29.000 But you were there in line?

00:29:31.000 You didn't see people using them?

00:29:32.000 Nope.

00:29:33.000 Not one person.

00:29:34.000 Let me guess.

00:29:35.000 There are ten self-checkout lanes and two service lanes left, right?

00:29:42.000 Uh, yep.

00:29:42.000 That's right.

00:29:43.000 Okay.

00:29:44.000 Let me keep guessing here.

00:29:46.000 We'll be right back, folks.

00:29:47.000 Stay with us.

00:29:52.000 We're on the march, the empire's on the run.

00:29:56.000 Alex Jones and the GCN Radio Network.

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00:33:02.000 Mondays and Fridays from 11 to 2 Central.

00:33:06.000 Back from 9 to midnight Central Standard Time.

00:33:08.000 Monday through Friday from 11 to 2 central back from 9 to midnight central standard time I'm Alex Jones your host the websites are Infowars.com and PrisonPlanet.com We have the InfoWar, because there's a war on for your mind attempting to stop these private, corporate, corrupt interests from turning our planet into a prison.

00:33:31.000 Hence, PrisonPlanet.com.

00:33:34.000 Coming up, more on the impending indictments of some of the crime bosses up there in the White House.

00:33:43.000 We've got a little clip here.

00:33:45.000 Crystal again for the second week in a row.

00:33:48.000 This time elaborating even more.

00:33:50.000 Roe and Libby may be indicted.

00:33:54.000 So we'll play that clip here in a second.

00:33:58.000 Just finishing up what I was talking about earlier.

00:34:02.000 It's not my opinion.

00:34:03.000 I've been to the biometric conferences.

00:34:05.000 They come right here to Austin all the time.

00:34:07.000 I have been reading their industry publications for a decade.

00:34:11.000 It's going to be hooked into the RFID like a huge wireless Google network.

00:34:16.000 Everything you buy, everything you sell, everything you do, instantly uploaded to a database that the government and corporations have access to.

00:34:24.000 It's going to cause incredible identity theft.

00:34:27.000 Again, most identity theft are large corporate transfers and sales of data.

00:34:33.000 That's where most of it is happening.

00:34:35.000 And it's a nightmare.

00:34:36.000 So I have mainstream news articles from the Associated Press, Casper Star Tribune, you name it here, where every cell phone action you're doing is being tracked.

00:34:45.000 You're being tracked down the road by your cell phone, being triangulated through local FEMA bases.

00:34:53.000 The thumb scanners are going in the grocery stores everywhere.

00:34:55.000 They're going to force you onto these. 0.69

00:34:59.000 We'll be talking to John Harmon, who's running the board right now, coming up the next hour for a few minutes, finish up his story.

00:35:06.000 You know, now the big grocery stores in Minneapolis-St.

00:35:08.000 Paul, they phase out the service checkout lanes.

00:35:12.000 Everybody's still trying to go to the one or two service lanes they've got.

00:35:16.000 And then they just phase those out completely.

00:35:18.000 That's now happening in Austin, and you don't have a choice.

00:35:21.000 You've got to use self-serve, and then, oh, you've got to thumb scan.

00:35:25.000 That's the next step.

00:35:26.000 Why do they want this so badly?

00:35:28.000 We'll explain it.

00:35:30.000 Very dangerous.

00:35:32.000 I mean, you talk about an Orwellian situation, this is it.

00:35:35.000 And both parties are behind it.

00:35:37.000 Big corporations are behind it.

00:35:39.000 And they've got a lot of peaceniks going.

00:35:40.000 This will cause a global air of peace.

00:35:43.000 We'll all love each other after this happens.

00:35:46.000 A lot of well-meaning people, but this will end all crime.

00:35:51.000 But what it'll do is bring in an era of tyranny the likes of which the globe has never seen.

00:35:57.000 Can you imagine Hitler if he had these type of mechanisms? 0.78

00:36:01.000 You build a government big enough to give you anything you want, it's big enough to take it all away.

00:36:08.000 Alright, I am digressing, it's just that this is all coming to pass now.

00:36:12.000 Everything we read in industry publications a decade ago is now happening, and it is slavery.

00:36:19.000 For the next 45 minutes or so, I'm really honored to be joined by an individual who we've had on several times before.

00:36:26.000 I had a chance to interview him for a documentary that I've got coming out soon, as well as many of you have already seen it on the TV show or at PrisonPlanet.TV.

00:36:35.000 Former high-level CIA analyst in the Reagan and Bush of 41 administrations, and of course that's Ray McGovern, He's been an outspoken critic of the faulty, well, I shouldn't call it faulty, the lies, the manufactured intelligence to go to war, and many other issues.

00:36:53.000 Then of course, Jeff Norman, Executive Director of U.S.

00:36:56.000 Tour of Duty, he's been organizing all over the country to have speeches and expose this and have rallies.

00:37:02.000 And Jeff, of course, was grabbed by Rumsfeld's goons for asking the God a question at a press conference.

00:37:11.000 And then of course, We're also joined by gold star mom Nadia McCaffrey, who is of course with us under sad circumstances, but at least she is bringing good out of the bad, trying to save other people's sons and daughters.

00:37:28.000 Her son was killed as part of this whole whole action that's going on over in the Middle East and Central Asia.

00:37:38.000 So to all three of you, thank you for coming on.

00:37:41.000 I first want to go to Ray McGovern.

00:37:44.000 Ray, you're here in Austin right now, aren't you?

00:37:47.000 I am.

00:37:47.000 I'm glad to be with you, Alex.

00:37:49.000 You bet.

00:37:50.000 Now, obviously with three of you on here, we've got to kind of crystallize the information you're bringing forward, but why are you here in Austin?

00:38:00.000 Well, this evening we're speaking at the LBJ Center for Public Policy at 7 o'clock.

00:38:06.000 It's going to be a discussion with those who are in general support of the war and those of us who think that the war was misguided from the outset and that we ought to figure out ways to get out.

00:38:22.000 Who are they going to have up against you?

00:38:25.000 I'm not sure, Alex.

00:38:27.000 Jeff would be the expert on that.

00:38:29.000 I understand it's a professor that may have spent some recent time in Iraq.

00:38:35.000 Well, I got a chance to hear one of their professors.

00:38:41.000 We actually went to one of their meetings a few months ago, and he was calling for putting all Arabs in America in concentration camps.

00:38:48.000 That was his term, and he called for a new world order And to really strike at them at another one of these little LBJ functions.

00:38:58.000 Let's bring Jeff Norman in, then we'll bring in, of course, Nadia.

00:39:02.000 Jeff, you guys are here in Austin, and this isn't your first trip here to Austin.

00:39:07.000 We've been, of course, I've been visited by Mr. McGovern in the last few months as well.

00:39:12.000 Why are you guys here in Austin?

00:39:14.000 Well, we're here to tell the truth and get the information out there that is otherwise being ignored or distorted, and you're right, we were here in August while Cindy Sheehan was down in Crawford, and the enthusiasm was so great that we came back this soon.

00:39:30.000 And I can clarify who is on the program tonight, if you'd like.

00:39:34.000 Yeah, tell us about it.

00:39:36.000 Okay, Nadia and Ray will be speaking against the war, and the two people who are in favor of the war, one is Trampas Crowe, who is A graduate student, actually, at the LBJ School, and he is also an Iraq veteran.

00:39:50.000 And the other person who will be embracing the U.S.

00:39:53.000 occupation of Iraq and trying to defend it is Sarah Binion, and she is an adjunct professor at Austin Community College specializing in international relations.

00:40:04.000 That starts at 7 o'clock tonight.

00:40:07.000 And I've been encouraged to point out that the parking is free.

00:40:11.000 But sometimes that's difficult at the school, I understand.

00:40:14.000 In the particular area we are, it is free and easy and the admission is free also.

00:40:17.000 Well, they've actually got a gigantic parking lot.

00:40:20.000 I've been there probably 25 times.

00:40:23.000 Let's go to Nadia McCaffrey. 0.95

00:40:26.000 Nadia, thank you for coming on with us.

00:40:28.000 Why are you here in Austin?

00:40:29.000 Good morning.

00:40:30.000 Glad to be here.

00:40:32.000 I am here for the same purpose.

00:40:34.000 I mean, I need to pass on the truth, especially since I did the trip last year to the Middle East with the peace delegation comprised of five parents who had lost their son in Iraq.

00:40:49.000 We needed to see the situation for ourselves, and we did.

00:40:54.000 So after what we saw, we need to bring the truth back, and we need to speak out clearly, loudly.

00:41:02.000 Every new excuse or new package or raft of lies and propaganda that has been launched by the neocons in the last four or five years, it's all been proven to be patented, manufactured lies, premeditated lies, not accidental lies.

00:41:22.000 I'm surprised they can even find people, though these two, Trampus Crowe and This other person, don't sound like their credentials stand up against the credentials, obviously, of a mother who lost her son, and Jeff Norman, of course, yourself, high-level CIA analyst.

00:41:40.000 I mean, frankly, aren't they losing the war because no matter how many Fox News channels they have, we have the truth?

00:41:49.000 Well Alex, it is true that there has been a sea change over the last several months and we now have polls indicating that as many as two-thirds of the American people think the war is a bad idea.

00:42:01.000 The question is how to have a respectful discussion on these issues with people coming at it from different viewpoints.

00:42:10.000 And what I hope we model this evening is precisely that.

00:42:13.000 A chance to show that the people from different perspectives can address these issues in a civil way, unlike what you'll hear on a lot of the radio these days.

00:42:24.000 And address them in a concerted way so that people can see what the options are.

00:42:30.000 In other words, should we, quote, stay the course, end quote?

00:42:34.000 We'll have to see how those folks defend that course. 0.99

00:42:37.000 And should we withdraw?

00:42:39.000 Well, that also is a very easy course of action.

00:42:43.000 And so how would we go about withdrawing?

00:42:46.000 And what are the equities there?

00:42:49.000 So these are the discussions that have to happen.

00:42:52.000 And I'm just delighted that they're happening this evening.

00:42:55.000 And I hope it will be an enlightening experience for those people from whichever perspective they come.

00:43:00.000 Now, let's be specific about this.

00:43:03.000 We're in Iraq.

00:43:05.000 They're talking about being there for decades.

00:43:07.000 This is an endless war on terror.

00:43:10.000 Meanwhile, the borders are wide open, which just shows what a complete fraud any of these statements are.

00:43:15.000 Nadia, let's be specific.

00:43:17.000 Let's personalize this.

00:43:18.000 We know it's personal for you, and it's personal for all Americans who don't want to be involved in a War of Aggression, a unprovoked war of profiteering.

00:43:30.000 Specifically, tell us about your son and what happened to him.

00:43:34.000 Well, my son is not just my son.

00:43:38.000 In other words, I'm not speaking on behalf of my son alone here.

00:43:42.000 I'm speaking on many other soldiers who are still today in Iraq and others who have come back.

00:43:49.000 For example, from his unit.

00:43:51.000 They share The way I feel, and they also think that we shouldn't be in Iraq.

00:43:59.000 My son was betrayed, I feel, by his government because he trusted what he was told when he left.

00:44:07.000 He was a National Guard to start with, and he enlisted after 9-11, wanting to make a difference, to help out people within the country.

00:44:15.000 He didn't want anything like 9-11 to happen again, and he wanted to be here to help.

00:44:21.000 Instead, he was deployed to Iraq, he was killed, and he was the first National Guard to be killed from California from his unit in 58 years.

00:44:33.000 Wow, that's quite an interesting distinction.

00:44:37.000 How long was your son there, and if I may ask, how did he pass?

00:44:41.000 He was there a very short time.

00:44:44.000 He was deployed at the end of March, he arrived in Iraq at the first or second week of April.

00:44:52.000 I think it was the beginning of the second week.

00:44:55.000 He was killed June 22, 2004 in Balad, Iraq.

00:45:02.000 He was ambushed.

00:45:04.000 Matter of fact, he was killed by the very soldier he was training to become part of the new Iraqi Army.

00:45:12.000 You say he was killed by the very soldiers he was training?

00:45:15.000 Oh, was it friendly fire?

00:45:17.000 No, no, it was not friendly fire.

00:45:18.000 They were Iraqi men that he was training that turned on American soldiers.

00:45:25.000 It was nothing to do with friendly fire.

00:45:27.000 Oh, I understand.

00:45:28.000 You're saying it was a sneak attack or spies?

00:45:31.000 It was hostile, definitely, and it's considered to be a so-called insurgent.

00:45:39.000 Um, a third sniper arrives on the scene and fire at the three of them, but especially Patrick because... Well, this is what we hear from the armchair quarterback neocons that literally swill beer and eat pizza and watch the war coverage.

00:45:53.000 I mean, they actually...

00:45:54.000 Get off on it.

00:45:55.000 I talked to several liquor store owners.

00:45:56.000 They said that on the eve of the war, they sold record amounts of wine and other spirits.

00:46:02.000 So this is like a new gladiatorial entertainment for them. 0.99

00:46:05.000 But I hear them say, hey, since they killed your son, we need to kill more of them. 0.98

00:46:11.000 But what they don't understand is what all the analysts have been saying. 0.99

00:46:13.000 The more we go in there and bully people and bomb things, the more resistance is formed.

00:46:19.000 It's an endless meat grinder.

00:46:21.000 Meanwhile, what?

00:46:22.000 Only one member of Congress has a son that's ever been to Iraq?

00:46:27.000 Ray McGovern, can you comment on that?

00:46:30.000 Yeah, this is a main part of the problem, Alex.

00:46:34.000 I was talking to an audience outside of Milwaukee at a very posh suburb, and one well-heeled gentleman came up and said, what's your problem?

00:46:44.000 There are only four or five soldiers dying every week, and we do need the oil, don't we?

00:46:48.000 You have to admit that that's a very small price to pay for the oil we need.

00:46:53.000 I could hardly believe my ears, because I dare say many Americans subconsciously are thinking these thoughts.

00:46:59.000 But here was a fellow articulating it.

00:47:01.000 I've got to stop you.

00:47:02.000 They say it every day on neocon radio.

00:47:04.000 They say, yeah, it's about oil, so what?

00:47:06.000 Sorry to hear that.

00:47:07.000 Well, I said to him, I said, now suppose your son was one of those five that were killed last week.

00:47:13.000 You know, Alex, he looked at me, he looked at me, it was clear that he had never even thought that thought before.

00:47:19.000 And he dismissed it, he said, well, it wouldn't be my son.

00:47:22.000 And it wouldn't be his son, and that is a huge part of the problem.

00:47:25.000 So zero empathy, and then even when you forced him to consciously look at it, he still had no empathy and just said, no, not my son.

00:47:34.000 No, you know, it's the kids from the farms, kids from the inner city.

00:47:37.000 Those kids are expendable.

00:47:39.000 My son wouldn't have to go to Iraq and Well, I know Rangel and others who've had him on have said, yeah, that's why we need to draft all the rich kids.

00:47:46.000 Look, they're never going to write the law where it happens to their kids, or they're going to be managing the PX 500 miles from any combat.

00:47:57.000 Well, if we spread the truth around, Alex, and you're a big help in this, we can educate folks to realize that they've been had and that this war has nothing to do with democracy or freedom or defending, quote, our way of life.

00:48:12.000 What it has to do with is enriching the pockets of the folks that support this administration and enabling us to try to exert our power throughout the world, particularly in the Middle East.

00:48:23.000 But, Ryan McGovern, I had Congressman Ron Paul on Last Thursday.

00:48:29.000 The good man.

00:48:30.000 And the congressman, I said, why does Bush want martial law here in America?

00:48:35.000 I said, you know, why are we in Iraq?

00:48:37.000 Why is all this happening?

00:48:39.000 And Ron Paul, we have a transcript of it on PrisonPlanet.com, but the interview's there as well, he said Bush is trying to take over and set up martial law.

00:48:47.000 He said Bush, and Ron Paul's been on this show over two dozen times, he's never talked like this, he said the evidence is clear, He's trying to set up a dictatorship.

00:48:57.000 Your comments on that?

00:48:59.000 Well, it does seem as though the folks that have his ear are held meant on giving a wider purview, wider responsibilities to our military, witness what they're talking about now, and giving the military primary responsibility for catastrophes, for hurricanes, and so forth.

00:49:16.000 A military has been built up as an instrument of power by these folks that has never existed in its potency, this kind of potency, before.

00:49:24.000 And so I think we all need to look at this, because there are laws against using the military in law enforcement capacities, and we need to get to our congressmen and senators and say, look, enough of this stuff.

00:49:37.000 Bring the National Guard home, have the National Guard do these duties under the supervision of the governors, and don't let the U.S.

00:49:44.000 military take over the security functions of this country, because that's not what it was invented to do.

00:49:50.000 Well, it's every classical sign of a dictatorship.

00:49:54.000 Pushing national ID cards, putting cameras up everywhere, getting rid of any due process, secret arrest of citizens, They don't need to get rid of Posse Comentatus. 0.84

00:50:06.000 He'd use the regular army in a disaster.

00:50:08.000 And then, the training of the domestic troops.

00:50:12.000 I've been to these training ops, sir.

00:50:14.000 It is for domestic takeover.

00:50:16.000 I mean, this is really bone-chilling, but I see both parties involved.

00:50:21.000 Well, Alex, the real rub here is were there to be another huge, quote, terrorist event, end quote.

00:50:32.000 We have Tommy Franks, the general, saying that if this happened, the military would certainly impose martial law and bye-bye democracy.

00:50:41.000 So we have to be careful.

00:50:42.000 And if somebody does this kind of provocation, big, violent explosion of some kind, we have to not take the word of the masters there in Washington that this was some terrorist event, because it could well be a provocation allowing them, or seemingly to allow them... We'll be right back.

00:51:01.000 Stay with us.

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00:54:09.000 Alex Jones on the GCN Radio Network.

00:54:13.000 Alright, time waits for no man. 0.92

00:54:15.000 I apologize about that break cutting off, what Ray McGovern was saying.

00:54:19.000 Ray, we brought up martial law.

00:54:21.000 I mean, Tommy Franks puts up the trial balloon.

00:54:24.000 Oh, it's too bad.

00:54:25.000 One more attack.

00:54:27.000 Military government keeps you safe.

00:54:29.000 And every day, articles about, hmm, maybe this will keep us safe.

00:54:35.000 Has nothing... I mean, all these scientists and doctors have said, That if there's some type of bio-attack, martial law will do nothing.

00:54:44.000 None of the money is going towards actual first responders or medical teams.

00:54:48.000 It's all about an excuse to take over.

00:54:51.000 And you were saying that if there is some attack, while the indictments are going on, I would add, some convenient attack, we've got to ask where that's coming from.

00:55:01.000 Please continue and finish up what you were saying, Ray.

00:55:04.000 Well, we've just got to be very careful not to be taken in.

00:55:09.000 You know, things get even worse than they are now.

00:55:11.000 And they are going to get worse.

00:55:14.000 And the administration considers that it's going to be necessary to rally the people behind the flag again, so to speak.

00:55:22.000 I would not put past them playing fast and loose with these color code type things, with these provocations, real or imagined.

00:55:34.000 Bloomberg just got caught with the fake terror alert with the hoax.

00:55:38.000 That's right, up in New York.

00:55:40.000 So we just have to be alert as citizens and not take what the government dishes out as gospel.

00:55:48.000 Well, Ray, the sources we trust, that in the past we found out to be very accurate, one of them Ron Paul, others in the White House, around the White House, Capitol Hill, Blue, and others say that Bush is throwing fits, screaming and yelling, that there's actual disintegration going on in there right now, that they're panicked for the last month.

00:56:08.000 But at the same time, I get the intel that they're still as arrogant as ever, just pushing their whole agenda as things start to crumble up from under them. 0.94

00:56:17.000 And Ron Paul said that it's clear that they are delusional and mentally ill right now. 0.97

00:56:24.000 Well, they've been delusional all along.

00:56:26.000 I think the best outcome would be for the President to take his bike out there in Maryland, just to ride around for the next month or two, and let Fitzgerald come back with the indictments and see what the administration, how they'll cope with that, because it's going to get pretty intense pretty soon.

00:56:44.000 And when you talk about Rove and Libby, well, Rove is simply the President, and Libby is simply the Vice President, and these things go a lot higher, Because they have to do with the lies used to justify this war.

00:56:57.000 But to be specific, you're always, and others back in the 80s and early 90s, called them the crazies at the Pentagon in their kind of walled, sequestered romper room.

00:57:07.000 But I mean, now we have Ron Paul calling them delusional.

00:57:11.000 Yeah.

00:57:12.000 The only hope really here is Patrick Fitzgerald and his integrity, and it looks like he's got lots of it, which is a rare commodity in Washington.

00:57:21.000 The indictments are going to come down and they're going to touch the President and the Vice President specifically.

00:57:27.000 Why?

00:57:28.000 Well, because this whole war was built on a forgery. 0.56

00:57:32.000 On a forgery that said Iraq was seeking uranium in Niger and that was used to justify this mushroom cloud scare.

00:57:40.000 Now, who did the forgery?

00:57:42.000 Alex, who did the forgery?

00:57:43.000 Why is it that Senator Pat Roberts, the head of the Senate Intelligence Committee, refused to investigate who did the forgery?

00:57:49.000 Well, you know who did it?

00:57:50.000 My best guess is that it was done at home here by folks very willing to do this kind of task for the likes of Louis Libby and his boss, Vice President Cheney.

00:58:03.000 Have they bitten off more than they can chew, Ray, in the intelligence community that's sick of lying for them?

00:58:09.000 Well, they have, and it depends on us to hold them to it.

00:58:12.000 Because if we're not educated, if we're not strong and have the courage of our convictions, they'll get away with it once again.

00:58:19.000 All right, we're going to come back.

00:58:20.000 It was just a 60-second break.

00:58:23.000 We've got a short segment coming up.

00:58:24.000 I want to go to Nadia McCaffrey who lost her son in Iraq.

00:58:28.000 First National Guardsman in over 50 years from the state of California to die.

00:58:33.000 He was the first, the first of many, unfortunately.

00:58:36.000 We'll come back.

00:58:36.000 She's got some very interesting points she wants to make.

00:58:41.000 This broadcast is available on MP3 CD format at GCNlive.com or call toll free 877-300-7645.

00:58:49.000 Big Brother.

00:58:59.000 Mainstream media.

00:59:01.000 Government cover-ups.

00:59:03.000 You want answers?

00:59:04.000 Well, so does he.

00:59:06.000 He's Alex Jones on the GCN Radio Network.

00:59:10.000 And now, live from Austin, Texas, Alex Jones.

00:59:15.000 Well, we really ought to be thankful for people like Ray McGovern, former CIA analyst who briefed Ronald Reagan and George Bush, the first.

00:59:25.000 Lord Bush, the first.

00:59:27.000 We're also joined by Jeff Norman who's been out there organizing as a great activist all over the country.

00:59:34.000 We had him on a few months ago when he simply asked Rumsfeld a question and was grabbed by Rumsfeld's goons, was video caught of that.

00:59:41.000 And Nadia McCaffrey who lost her son in Iraq.

00:59:44.000 She's part of Gold Star Vets and she was of course the mother of a veteran who died over there.

00:59:51.000 We're honored to have all three of them with us.

00:59:53.000 They're all going to be here in Austin.

00:59:55.000 Well, they're now here in Austin, but coming up tonight, 7 o'clock, LBJ Presidential Museum and Library.

01:00:02.000 And it's in room 3109, but I've got a sneaking suspicion it'll be moved to a larger auditorium.

01:00:09.000 So, just, you'll find it.

01:00:11.000 Go to the UT library there, and you can't, the University of Texas LBJ Library and Museum, you can't miss it. 0.99

01:00:20.000 Coming up tonight at 7 o'clock, they'll be debating some Well, I've got to say it's some ne'er-do-wells or well-meaning idiots. 0.99

01:00:27.000 I don't know what they are. 0.99

01:00:28.000 It's just that they're going to be having a debate pro-con for the war.

01:00:32.000 And I've just heard the pro-war crowd.

01:00:34.000 They have... They are congenital liars. 1.00

01:00:40.000 And I don't know about these two particular people they're going to be debating, but in every case it's been the same. 1.00

01:00:46.000 I mean, you have to be an idiot or a liar to push this war. 1.00

01:00:50.000 It's one of the most unjust flagrantly fraudulent wars in history. 1.00

01:00:54.000 We're about to break, this is a quick segment, but going to Nadia McCaffrey.

01:00:59.000 Nadia, you had some points you wanted to make, namely about armored Humvees.

01:01:03.000 You know, we hear on Neocon Radio that there's plenty of armored Humvees, but I've talked to troops coming back, who've just been getting back in the last month, most of them still don't have armored Humvees.

01:01:13.000 Nadia?

01:01:13.000 No, they don't, and especially the guards, which are being killed left and right, as you know.

01:01:20.000 I was invited to that lunch in Beverly Hills with Jeff Norman, and my question to Mr. Rumsfeld was, why do we have 70,000?

01:01:32.000 M113 parked in the middle of the United States collecting dust.

01:01:37.000 And we had those three years ago before we went to war.

01:01:41.000 What are they doing parking in the middle of the U.S.

01:01:43.000 when our soldiers are being killed because of a lack of protection?

01:01:47.000 Their equipment is not adequate.

01:01:49.000 What is going on?

01:01:50.000 I want to know why.

01:01:52.000 And what did Rumsfeld say to that?

01:01:55.000 Well, my question was tossed on the bottom pile of many other military questions.

01:02:02.000 Of course.

01:02:03.000 Well, I mean, even McCain just brought out that Schwarzenegger stages press conferences.

01:02:08.000 They make people getting into Cheney town halls sign a form saying they agree with him and won't ask a mean question.

01:02:15.000 Ray McGovern, the buying of news reporters, all of this, again, it fits in with this perfect mosaic of tyranny.

01:02:22.000 Well, it certainly does, Alex.

01:02:24.000 It's a sea change in what I'm used to.

01:02:26.000 I've been watching things in Washington for 45 years now.

01:02:31.000 We no longer have a free press in any meaningful sense of that term and so the premium is on folks like you and others to tune into the alternative press and get the real scoop and the internet is one of the prime resources for that.

01:02:48.000 We just have to be a little bit more imaginative in ways to use that terrific facility.

01:02:53.000 Why don't they care?

01:02:54.000 I mean, that's not anti-war propaganda.

01:02:56.000 I looked into it.

01:02:57.000 They really don't care, and from the start and continually have not shipped the proper equipment over there that we already have.

01:03:05.000 Why are they mothballing it?

01:03:06.000 Well, I think the operative thing, Alex, once again, is it wouldn't be my son.

01:03:12.000 It wouldn't be my daughter.

01:03:14.000 So who cares?

01:03:15.000 I mean, this is cannon fodder.

01:03:17.000 Five, six, seven a week.

01:03:19.000 That's what the gentleman said to me in Pewaukee, Wisconsin.

01:03:22.000 You gotta admit, that's worth it for our way of life, right?

01:03:25.000 For the oil we need.

01:03:26.000 That is the incredibly cynical attitude of these folks.

01:03:30.000 But as you know, the oil companies are ripping us off to begin with.

01:03:35.000 Stay there.

01:03:36.000 Folks, this is amazing.

01:03:36.000 We'll talk to Jeff Warman when we get back as well.

01:03:39.000 I got several other important questions for our guests who I just really want to thank and who I just appreciate.

01:03:44.000 I mean, they're traveling the country of their own time and money to tell you the truth, folks.

01:03:53.000 Hey folks, Alex Jones here, and I'm very excited to announce the release of my bombshell documentary film, 9-1-1, The Road to Tyranny, on DVD.

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01:06:42.000 From his Central Texas Command Center, deep behind enemy lines, the information war continues.

01:06:47.000 One more time, that's 866-885-6625.

01:06:51.000 From his Central Texas Command Center, deep behind enemy lines, the information war continues.

01:07:00.000 It's Alex Jones and the GCN Radio Network.

01:07:04.000 I tend to start frothing when I get into these subjects because there's so much evidence that...

01:07:16.000 During the break I was talking to Ray McGovern, high-level top CIA analyst.

01:07:21.000 He briefed Ronald Reagan six days a week there at breakfast during the Reagan administration and of course Bush 41.

01:07:31.000 And back then, and we've talked to Ray and many of his colleagues, they called the current crew running things the crazies.

01:07:38.000 I mean, they want to use nuclear weapons.

01:07:40.000 They want to take the planet over. 0.77

01:07:42.000 They're all a bunch of soft little chicken hawks, never wore a uniform, never been in combat. 0.86

01:07:48.000 And they just, I mean, it's admitted, Richard Perle shows off to women who are just disgusted by him Cocktail parties by talking about, you know, I can invade countries if I want to.

01:08:01.000 I mean, this has been in the papers.

01:08:02.000 Imagine this blob swaggering over going, I'm powerful. 1.00

01:08:08.000 I mean, these people are mentally ill. 1.00

01:08:10.000 There's no other way to look at it. 1.00

01:08:12.000 They've gone off the deep end.

01:08:14.000 Ron Paul last week never talked like this.

01:08:16.000 He said they're delusional.

01:08:19.000 And so I was talking to Ray during the break, and I said, Ray, I mean, what points do you want to make?

01:08:23.000 There's so many.

01:08:24.000 He said, torture.

01:08:25.000 And I'm like, exactly!

01:08:27.000 Torture!

01:08:28.000 Bush comes out and says that, hey, we're not going to stop torturing.

01:08:34.000 Now, this is after sending people to prison on orders to torture.

01:08:38.000 We know they ordered them to torture.

01:08:40.000 Then they send them to prison.

01:08:41.000 And then Bush says, I'm not going to stop torturing people.

01:08:44.000 But then Alberto Gonzalez gets confirmed and won't even Step away from his memos calling for torture.

01:08:53.000 And I agree with Ray McGovern when he said during the break that this shows that Rove is distracted right now, you know, off trying to save his own hind end.

01:09:01.000 But, you know, that's what scares me, Ray McGovern, is that they seem to be even more out of control, more arrogant, more in your face right now.

01:09:13.000 That's right, Alex.

01:09:14.000 You know, our Constitution was written by some very foresighted people who had provisions for what happens when a president starts acting like a king.

01:09:27.000 And they wrote right into that basic document a very orderly procedure.

01:09:31.000 The remedy to be followed under such circumstances, and that remedy is called impeachment.

01:09:36.000 And just the fact that the Republican Party, the President's party, dominates the legislature right now, that is no excuse.

01:09:44.000 No excuse for our representatives to avoid pressing articles of impeachment against the people who would besmirch our country's name and endanger our own soldiers.

01:09:59.000 By having an openly avowed policy of torture, consistent with military necessity and as appropriate, and who decides what's appropriate, but the President of the United States.

01:10:10.000 This is a king, this is not a president.

01:10:12.000 The way you get rid of a king is to impeach him.

01:10:15.000 Well, Ray, back in your day at the CIA, torture was not some routine procedure.

01:10:21.000 It certainly went on and people went to prison for doing it.

01:10:25.000 Now it's just out in the open being codified as some huge policy arm.

01:10:31.000 But then I read my history books, but you're an analyst.

01:10:34.000 Torture supposedly doesn't work.

01:10:36.000 You can't trust a government who tortures.

01:10:39.000 Torture always backfires.

01:10:41.000 It gets your own people tortured.

01:10:43.000 I mean, how are they openly pushing torture?

01:10:47.000 Well, Alex, I served two years as an officer, an infantry and intelligence officer, and we had to memorize that manual that prohibited this kind of treatment.

01:10:57.000 And the reasons are very clear.

01:10:59.000 Number one, as you already said, it doesn't work.

01:11:01.000 You can't get reliable information by torturing people.

01:11:04.000 Anybody who's had any experience in intelligence knows that.

01:11:08.000 Number two, you endanger your own soldiers.

01:11:10.000 Number three, you give your country a very bad name.

01:11:13.000 Number four, you brutalize the brutalizers. 0.91

01:11:17.000 The people, the young kids you send to torture others are brutalized themselves.

01:11:21.000 They come home and they brutalize others.

01:11:24.000 And number five, not least, it's just plain wrong.

01:11:28.000 Morally wrong.

01:11:29.000 It's in the same category with rape, with slavery. 1.00

01:11:32.000 Torture is always wrong.

01:11:34.000 And if our churches can't wake up If our people cannot wake up and make themselves a little different from the populace in the 30s in Nazi Germany and do something about this, if they can't face torture and tell the President this is wrong, then I fear for the future of our country.

01:11:52.000 Well, that's the thing.

01:11:53.000 I mean, no one's ever promoted torture openly.

01:11:57.000 I mean, the Nazis didn't even do that.

01:12:00.000 No, and you know, it all came to a head last week when Senator McCain, who knows something about torture, having been tortured himself, put a little amendment on the Defense Authorization Bill.

01:12:12.000 The amendment said, we simply will not torture anymore.

01:12:15.000 We'll follow the procedures in the Army Manual for Interrogation.

01:12:18.000 Guess what?

01:12:19.000 Cheney descended on those folks that wanted to do that amendment and said, we're going to veto that bill if you have that amendment in it.

01:12:27.000 And anyhow, what happened, and to his credit, McCain persisted, and last week the Senate vote was 90 to 9 for the amendment prohibiting torture.

01:12:39.000 And your two Senators here in Texas, I have to say, Kay Bailey Hutchison, voted the correct way against torture, but this fellow John Cornyn, I don't know, I don't know how you justify voting for torture, but I would hope that you Texans listening in will ask John Cornyn, now why is it that you favor torture?

01:12:56.000 Because that's no overstatement.

01:12:59.000 That's what he did.

01:12:59.000 He voted against an amendment which said we should adhere to the Army Manual having to do with interrogation of POWs, and Cornyn voted against it with eight other Republicans.

01:13:11.000 And it's going to be really interesting to see if the House of Representatives honor that amendment or whether they succumb to White House pressure to allow this amendment to be defeated.

01:13:24.000 How did Gonzalez ever get confirmed?

01:13:27.000 When I've read his memos on air, he just plays that little word game, that delusional game, and says, well if we don't call it torture, it isn't torture, even if they die while we're tabling them.

01:13:39.000 And for those that don't know what tabling is, and the descriptions that have come out in the Army's own reports, Is that they have the people put excrement in a big bucket, and then they put somebody up on a dolly, on a plank, and then slide their head down into it.

01:13:55.000 I mean, Ray, how did they send people to prison for torturing when they were ordered to do it, and then meanwhile Gonzales openly admits that he wrote memos saying it was good?

01:14:07.000 Yeah, well that's the supreme indignity.

01:14:09.000 When he was up for confirmation, he did not disavow these memos.

01:14:14.000 Colin Powell, to his credit, and he deserves very little credit these days, but at least he spoke out against torture.

01:14:20.000 But Speedy Gonzales speeded his own little memo up to the President the day before he got the memo from Colin Powell. 0.99

01:14:27.000 So they clearly wanted... Well, the President on the evening of 9-11 told Richard Clark, the anti-terrorism fellow, and Don Rumsfeld Look, I don't care what the international lawyers say, we're gonna kick some ass. 0.96

01:14:41.000 Quote, end quote. 0.97

01:14:42.000 Where do I get that?

01:14:43.000 From Richard Clarke's book.

01:14:44.000 Was Richard Clarke there?

01:14:45.000 Of course he was.

01:14:46.000 That's who the person was talking to. 1.00

01:14:49.000 And so, it's a direct, direct dissent down into Crawford, Texas, where the counter-demonstrators had signs saying, kick their ass and take their gas. 1.00

01:15:00.000 Yeah, that's right. 0.99

01:15:01.000 In fact, I was out there.

01:15:02.000 They had signs.

01:15:03.000 I mean, how is this Christian? 1.00

01:15:06.000 Jesus Christ was tortured.

01:15:08.000 The disciples were tortured.

01:15:10.000 I mean, I can think of nothing more anti-Christ than torturing people, Ray.

01:15:15.000 Well, that's why I say if the Christian churches, like the real ones, you know, not the ones that are Christian in name only, if the Methodists and Catholics and Presbyterians and Episcopalians can't get their act together enough to speak out to their people and say, we think it's wrong that our government hasn't openly avowed

01:15:38.000 Well, it's almost like Bush wants to embarrass this country, and I think that's part of a larger program.

01:15:51.000 It's amazing.

01:15:53.000 Jeff Norman and Nadia McCaffrey, you guys are going to be there speaking tonight, and they're debating this evening, 7 o'clock, LBJ Library and Museum.

01:16:03.000 Right off I-35.

01:16:05.000 You really can't miss it, folks, but any other points you'd like to make?

01:16:09.000 Well, you know, it's not actually the library, it's the LBJ School of Public Affairs, which I guess is close, and I'd like to give the number of... To be specific, it's all the same building, so I'd like to... It is, alright.

01:16:18.000 Alright, so regarding the possibility of any venue change, let me give the number for information over there, if I might.

01:16:23.000 It's 471-8954.

01:16:27.000 And I'd also like to point out, if any people want to speak to their local representative, or their state representative actually, John Cornyn, about why he is so in love with torture, his address is 221 West 6th Street, Suite 1530.

01:16:42.000 So perhaps some concerned citizens might want to go over there and find out about it.

01:16:48.000 You also brought up a very interesting point before about the illegal paying of journalists to disseminate propaganda.

01:16:54.000 And Ray's former colleague, Mel Goodman, who worked with him in the CIA, wrote a very interesting op-ed, which is up on our website, ustourofduty.org, in which he suggested that maybe Robert Novak was among those who was paid off.

01:17:09.000 And I think that's the first time anyone has linked this illegal buying of the media to the, uh, Valerie Plain.

01:17:14.000 Well, I mean, it's well known, paid off, the guy's whole life, his whole position has been a, has been a neocon He's been moiling for them since day one.

01:17:27.000 In fact, give us the website, please, Nadia, for the Gold Star Vets as well, Ray, the Intelligence Veterans for Sanity.

01:17:37.000 Okay, there are two or three.

01:17:39.000 There is GoldStarFamilyForPeace, which is spelled with the first letter of each word, dot org.

01:17:46.000 GoldStarFamilyForPeace.org.

01:17:49.000 That's Sandy Sheehan's organization.

01:17:51.000 And we also are Veterans for Peace and quite a few others than Jeff is going to tell you.

01:17:59.000 We all work together on this.

01:18:01.000 Well, I'm glad that you've gone public, Nadia, and I appreciate your courage.

01:18:05.000 People should come down and support you tonight.

01:18:07.000 Ray, give us the website that you're a member of.

01:18:10.000 Yeah, well, you know, we're too busy running around the country spreading truth around, Alex, to maintain a website, so the best thing to do is Google either my name, Ray McGovern, or Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity, and you'll come up with pretty much everything we've done recently.

01:18:27.000 Yeah, you guys have done a massive, a massive amount of work, and hopefully we can make it through all of this, all of this craziness, and I really do appreciate all three of you for coming on.

01:18:39.000 It was a pleasure.

01:18:40.000 Thank you so much, Nadia.

01:18:42.000 Thank you, Jeff.

01:18:42.000 Thank you, Ray McGovern.

01:18:44.000 Thanks to all of you.

01:18:46.000 Take care.

01:18:46.000 Look forward to talking to you in the near future.

01:18:48.000 Get down there and support them tonight.

01:18:50.000 We'll be back with a ton of news and more guests.

01:18:55.000 Government of death which governs me.

01:18:57.000 Wake up and smell the fascism.

01:18:59.000 Being in government means never having to say you're sorry.

01:19:02.000 What part of unconstitutional do you not understand, George?

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01:22:56.000 Folks, I said that when Bush got into office, they may use him to really bring in the New World Order and then flush him down the toilet when they're done with it. 0.61

01:23:09.000 Presidents are just puppets.

01:23:11.000 I mean, he may knowingly go along with being destroyed, just like Nixon did.

01:23:18.000 Look, Kerry knows that he won the election.

01:23:21.000 I'm not for John Kerry.

01:23:23.000 John Forbes Kerry.

01:23:26.000 But you can't just steal the election with the electronic voting machines if the person it's being stolen from doesn't play ball.

01:23:34.000 You've got to have it rigged from top to bottom.

01:23:37.000 And we know they did that.

01:23:39.000 And we know that Bush may be brought down.

01:23:43.000 It may happen.

01:23:44.000 But I'm not going to be celebrating it.

01:23:46.000 Look, Hillary Clinton's for the war. 0.99

01:23:48.000 Chuckie Schumer's for the war.

01:23:49.000 Clinton was for the war.

01:23:53.000 Kerry wanted to invade Iran now.

01:23:56.000 How is that?

01:23:58.000 This is all done by design.

01:24:00.000 And so then we have chief neocons.

01:24:03.000 The father of Crystal literally ran the 4th International and shut up what is the neocons today.

01:24:09.000 Let's roll this clip.

01:24:11.000 This is, uh, this is, uh, he was on there a week ago, now he was on there yesterday again.

01:24:15.000 And he even elaborated, Rovan Libby, Scooter Libby will be indicted.

01:24:20.000 Roll it.

01:24:22.000 That would seem to me to create a little problem.

01:24:24.000 Libby's lawyer apparently entirely denies this.

01:24:26.000 So we have two distinguished lawyers simply contradicting each other at this point.

01:24:31.000 Um, look, what's amazing about this debate is the following.

01:24:34.000 On July 30th, the CIA referred to the Justice Department the leaking of Valerie Wilson, or Valerie Plame's name, for investigation under the, what's it called, the Intelligence... Foreign Intelligence and Identities Act.

01:24:46.000 Very odd name.

01:24:47.000 Right, from 1982.

01:24:48.000 There's almost no chance, I think, that Rove or Libby are going to be prosecuted for violating that act.

01:24:53.000 On the other hand, the CIA began this process of a criminal investigation.

01:24:58.000 It went from a Justice Department investigation to a special prosecutor at Christmas of 2003.

01:25:03.000 and I now think, and I hate the criminalization of politics, and I think it's really ridiculous when you step back and say, of all the leaks that have come out in the last four or five years, is this the one leak that deserves to be prosecuted, of possibly classified information?

01:25:15.000 But talking to people pretty close to both Libby and Roe, outside of government, who therefore can talk about it, I think they expect the worst now.

01:25:24.000 I think they...

01:25:26.000 Both Libby and Roe will be indicted.

01:25:28.000 I believe, if I had to predict, and I don't know more about this than anyone else reading the papers, that both Libby and Roe will be indicted, not for what the original referral was about, but for some combination of disclosing classified information, or perhaps fairly to fully, be fully candid with federal investigators or with be fully candid with federal investigators or with the grand jury.

01:25:46.000 All right.

01:25:47.000 It's like a cliche.

01:25:48.000 And by the way, folks, that's another reason if the FBI ever wants to talk about, or talk to you, No.

01:25:57.000 Do not talk to them.

01:26:01.000 I mean, even if you know you're innocent, and they want to quote talk about something just to clear you, you can't talk to them.

01:26:09.000 Because if they say you didn't tell them the truth, Then you're going to prison!

01:26:15.000 I mean, by the way, I mean, that's ridiculous. 0.95

01:26:19.000 And I'm not here defending Karl Rove, heavens know, but this whole thing stinks to high heaven. 0.98

01:26:27.000 This whole thing.

01:26:29.000 Wheels within wheels, lies within lies, propaganda within propaganda, wheels within wheels.

01:26:37.000 Before we end this segment, I've got to put a plug in here, I've made twelve amazing documentary films.

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01:31:53.000 Systematic, premeditated, industrialized election fraud is going industrialized election fraud is going on.

01:32:12.000 It is an orgy of evidence.

01:32:14.000 We are grounding in it.

01:32:15.000 That's coming up in the next hour with Vicki Karp.

01:32:18.000 I haven't been taking calls today because we've got five guests.

01:32:23.000 In the next hour, if you want to talk to Vicki Karp, we'll get you on, but all the callers that keep calling in are on hold.

01:32:29.000 You're going to be waiting a while because we've got other news we need to cover.

01:32:34.000 I apologize about that, but this information has to be covered.

01:32:39.000 We live in the age where we have a president who openly says, hey, I'm going to send people to prison for following orders to torture.

01:32:48.000 But then I'm going to veto a law saying that we can't torture people severely.

01:32:54.000 The law just says, you know, current army manual, you can pressure them, but you can't torture them severely.

01:33:00.000 So, I'm going to veto that.

01:33:01.000 I mean, that is up is down, down is up.

01:33:04.000 That is an oxymoron.

01:33:05.000 You know, we're against torture, but we're for it.

01:33:10.000 It is a total contradiction.

01:33:12.000 But we have become a desensitized country.

01:33:15.000 We have lost our empathy.

01:33:17.000 Empires always become corrupt.

01:33:19.000 When you become decadent, you become basically mentally stunted.

01:33:24.000 We become very numb to what's happening.

01:33:28.000 I mean, empathy is, you see somebody that's hit by a car and they're splattered all over, and you see that they're in pain, you have a feeling of pain.

01:33:37.000 And by the way, I've read the psychology, I've read the sociology, I've read the science behind it.

01:33:42.000 That's because your brain, deep down, associates that incredible pain with that happening to yourself.

01:33:49.000 I mean, really, empathy is a self-survival mechanism.

01:33:54.000 The yuppies and ne'er-do-wells out there think that if they only care about themselves, everything's going to be alright.

01:34:02.000 Well, I only care about me, and that's how I get ahead.

01:34:05.000 Number one, that's not how we're supposed to operate.

01:34:08.000 You're going to be a very unhappy person.

01:34:11.000 But more importantly, it creates a society, a toxic society, where nobody cares about anybody and everything falls apart.

01:34:20.000 And I'm not trying to get up here and preach, folks.

01:34:23.000 I mean, I'm not the nicest person in the world.

01:34:25.000 I'm jealous.

01:34:25.000 I'm envious sometimes.

01:34:27.000 I'm greedy.

01:34:27.000 I mean, I have to deal with those feelings I have.

01:34:31.000 But at least I'm aware of them.

01:34:32.000 I mean, I'm an aggressive person.

01:34:34.000 I'm a mean person.

01:34:35.000 But at least I'm aware of that and I keep that in check and try to develop my higher calling and higher senses.

01:34:44.000 But we were talking to Ray McGovern, the top CIA analyst for Ronald Reagan and George Bush Sr.

01:34:50.000 About how these guys have lost all empathy.

01:34:53.000 I mean, he's out giving a speech and a guy walks up and says, so what?

01:34:57.000 You know, a couple dead troops every day, so what?

01:35:01.000 That's a good price to pay for cheap oil.

01:35:03.000 Well, what if it's your son?

01:35:05.000 Well, it's not going to be my son.

01:35:07.000 You see, what's the old Bible quote?

01:35:12.000 The wages of sin are death.

01:35:16.000 And then that simply means, folks, if we all go through life doing bad things, bad things are going to happen to us.

01:35:22.000 I mean, what comes around, goes around.

01:35:24.000 You reap what you sow.

01:35:26.000 I don't believe in karma, but that's another view of you reap what you sow.

01:35:33.000 And so enough of my preaching.

01:35:34.000 The point I'm trying to make here before we go to our next guest is that when you don't care about innocent people that are in prison, or you say, oh, they're all guilty, Well, then you're going to be treated like that, too!

01:35:46.000 You know, the cops' favorite cliché is, oh, everybody says they're innocent.

01:35:51.000 Well, police on average commit more crimes and use more drugs and beat their wives more than any other group.

01:35:57.000 Does that mean all cops are guilty?

01:35:59.000 No, it doesn't!

01:36:02.000 Now, when I learned about the Thulea, Texas case many years ago, and I've interviewed almost everybody under the sun surrounding, you know, this case, including some of the victims, I was amazed because, I mean, I knew that crime labs in Boston and crime labs in Houston and the FBI crime lab... Frederick Whitehurst, the head of the FBI crime lab's comment was that it was industrialized fraud.

01:36:23.000 I mean, it was just wholesale.

01:36:25.000 Everyone was guilty.

01:36:27.000 You know, if they wanted a guilty, uh, evidence, they'd just, boom, you were guilty.

01:36:32.000 Same thing with the Houston Crime Lab.

01:36:33.000 I mean, this is nationwide.

01:36:35.000 You think when you get arrested for something that you're going to get a fair trial.

01:36:38.000 No, you're not, folks.

01:36:40.000 But Tulia was a sterling example because you had people who weren't, who didn't have drugs.

01:36:46.000 You had people who had no criminal record.

01:36:48.000 Old farmers in a small town where the old aristocracy in the town The town had shut down, so literally the local big boss hog types just opened these prisons. 0.96

01:37:04.000 And with the state.

01:37:05.000 And Texas is a big warehouse state for warehousing everybody.

01:37:08.000 Just giving you some background. 0.95

01:37:10.000 And they would just go out and scoop up masses of black people with no criminal records and just throw them into prison. 0.98

01:37:16.000 The juries would give them 20 to 90 years in prison.

01:37:19.000 It came out that it was all completely manufactured.

01:37:22.000 The governor finally had to Had to give clemency or pardon most of them, and some people are still in prison!

01:37:30.000 So without further ado, we're going to talk to Nate Blakeslee, former editor of the Texas Observer.

01:37:36.000 He also writes for the Texas Observer currently, and he wrote the new book, The Tulia Story, and his new book is simply called, Tulia, Race, Cocaine, and Corruption in a Small Texas Town, and he also is now writing for Texas Monthly.

01:37:53.000 And I appreciate you sitting through that diatribe there, Nate, but, I mean, if we don't get angry about innocent people going to prison, none of us are safe, are we, Nate?

01:38:04.000 No, I would say you hit a bunch of the themes in the book in that introduction, and, you know, obviously one of the major ones is abuse of police power, and this is one of the prime examples in recent history.

01:38:14.000 Well, tell us, I mean, for those that don't know about Thulia, it's still relatively unknown.

01:38:20.000 Give us a thumbnail sketch.

01:38:22.000 Well, what happened was, in the summer of 1999, there was a major drug bust in Tulia, which was unusual in and of itself, because it's such a small town.

01:38:30.000 It's a town of about 5,000 people.

01:38:32.000 As you say, it's a town sort of in decline.

01:38:34.000 It's a ranching and agricultural town.

01:38:36.000 It's between Amarillo and Lubbock.

01:38:39.000 And one narcotics officer filed cases against 47 different defendants in that town.

01:38:45.000 Accused all of them of dealing powdered cocaine.

01:38:48.000 As you might expect, it made headlines.

01:38:50.000 He was named Officer of the Year.

01:38:53.000 There were a few stories about, well, should so many of these defendants have been black?

01:38:57.000 39 of the 47 were black and there's only about 250, maybe 300 black people in town.

01:39:04.000 But there were very few questions raised about the methods he used and about whether or not these cases were actually legitimate to begin with.

01:39:14.000 Until some investigative reporting and the observer reporting that I did focused on whether or not these cases were actually legit.

01:39:22.000 And that's when things started to really unravel.

01:39:25.000 And it came down like a house of cards and we think so many times that Tyranny is invincible, but really, it's a house of cards and along comes a wind and blows it over, but...

01:39:36.000 For those that also aren't aware of the case, he had also done this in a bunch of other towns, so the numbers were even larger in the total.

01:39:45.000 Yeah, well his M.O.

01:39:46.000 was... Actually, he had never been a narcotics agent, and that's kind of another galling aspect of this story, too, but he did have a terrible, terrible track record as a law enforcement officer.

01:39:57.000 Basically, his M.O.

01:39:58.000 was he would use his father's good name.

01:40:01.000 His father was a well-known Texas Ranger from West Texas who passed away.

01:40:05.000 And he would rely on his father's good name to get these deputy sheriff's positions in these small towns and generally he would run up a bunch of bills, make a general ass of himself until they were just about ready to get rid of him and then he would disappear, literally, in the middle of the shift and everybody would be left holding the bag.

01:40:23.000 That was his record coming into Tulia.

01:40:25.000 He had never done any kind of narcotics enforcement.

01:40:27.000 And what I tried to show in the book is how did we get to this state of affairs in the drug world where a man like this can be hired to do narcotics enforcement and not only hired in the first place, but allowed to do narcotics enforcement the way he did it, which was no corroboration of any kind for virtually any of his cases.

01:40:44.000 He never wore a wire.

01:40:46.000 Never had video, never even had a second officer to say yes he was where he said he was on the day he was there.

01:40:52.000 So it's, the book is about an incredible decline in standards in narcotics enforcement in the United States.

01:40:58.000 Well since you mention that, on the word of some crackhead who literally can hardly get out of bed in the morning, they'll SWAT team my house looking for drugs.

01:41:07.000 I mean all of us are in danger, I mean I'm sure you've heard of the cases of where the Yeah, well at least Coleman was a cop.

01:41:12.000 As you say, sometimes the person who's making the cases is not even a law enforcement officer.

01:41:16.000 He's a snitch or a confidential informant.

01:41:17.000 you know they boss in the old man's house and shooting five times and there's just thousands of these cases not frankly and second yeah well at least coleman was a cop as you say sometimes the person is making the cases is not even a law enforcement officer he's a snitch or a confidential informant and that is a that's part of the mo of this type of task force that hired coleman that these are the guys really are given narcotics enforcement a bad name in texas

01:41:44.000 These guys operate outside of the normal Department of Public Safety narcotics.

01:41:48.000 Let's stop right there.

01:41:48.000 What's your take on Dallas where they just pull cars over and throw cue ball chalk in the back and then grab them?

01:41:57.000 That story broke almost about a year after Tulia broke.

01:42:01.000 And that quickly became the reigning scandal in Texas and people forgot about Tulia for a while.

01:42:06.000 That was a heck of a story.

01:42:07.000 And that illustrated just how degraded law enforcement had become outside of these task forces.

01:42:13.000 And the thing that really got me about that story was that the district attorney admitted That they routinely did not test evidence, did not test the cocaine until the cases were ready to go to trial.

01:42:25.000 And so all you had was these narcs doing these field tests in which they were the only person present to say whether it was or was not cocaine.

01:42:33.000 And then if the case never went to trial, which as you know most drug cases never go to trial, usually it's a plea, a cop-out, then the drugs were never tested at all.

01:42:42.000 It's a breakdown in the system that comes from a lack of checks and balances.

01:42:47.000 Well, I want to ask the police this.

01:42:49.000 How do they sleep at night?

01:42:52.000 Number one, the drug war's gotten double the funding in the last ten years, and there's more cocaine and heroin on the streets than ever before.

01:43:00.000 Number one, the thing is a fraud and a failure at first base.

01:43:05.000 Then you move through this constellation of corruption, and I mean, I want to know how they sleep at night sending innocent people to prison.

01:43:15.000 Well, I tried to get inside Coleman's head as much as I could and I think Coleman was the narc, of course, in the Tulia case. 0.51

01:43:22.000 I think what it was about mostly for him was trying to save his professional career, or as Mel Brooks said, save his phony baloney job.

01:43:32.000 He had ruined his reputation through his past conduct in law enforcement.

01:43:37.000 That's right. 0.95

01:43:37.000 For those that didn't know, we're talking about 70-something-year-old black men that farm pigs and don't have criminal records. 0.95

01:43:44.000 This guy can just cold-bloodedly send them to prison. 0.99

01:43:48.000 He wasn't completely stupid. 0.92

01:43:53.000 He knew that he had to Pick and choose his targets among a population that was not likely to have much power. 0.70

01:44:00.000 Nobody was likely to step up and defend him.

01:44:04.000 Some of them did have past experience in drugs and some of them did have convictions for possession of drugs.

01:44:10.000 But others, as you say, had no records whatsoever.

01:44:13.000 And what did they say?

01:44:14.000 were just incredible.

01:44:15.000 90-year sentences for delivery of $200 worth of cocaine.

01:44:18.000 Kids with no prior records getting the maximum.

01:44:21.000 In fact, that's why I originally went to Tulia.

01:44:24.000 I wanted to speak to the jurors about what it was that they felt about delivering small amounts of cocaine was morally equivalent to raping or murdering somebody because that's what they were given these first-degree sentences.

01:44:34.000 And what did they say?

01:44:37.000 Well, I think what they said was, in general, Their feeling was that they knew these people were troublemakers.

01:44:47.000 They knew the family they came from.

01:44:49.000 Therefore, it didn't really matter how much evidence there was.

01:44:53.000 They didn't need to have much more evidence than this man's word because they knew the family.

01:44:57.000 Keep in mind, this is a really small town.

01:44:59.000 So once you get on the list as somebody who's an undesirable, you're in a lot of trouble.

01:45:05.000 And I lay more blame, really, on the district attorney and the sheriff and the task force for even making these cases and allowing them to come before attorneys in the first place.

01:45:15.000 Let's boil it down, though.

01:45:16.000 What I've heard from so many people inside this case is, if you were a young black man dating a white girl, you're going to prison.

01:45:24.000 That did come up more than once in my interviews.

01:45:26.000 In fact, it came up so many times that I would stop mentioning it, and it would still come up.

01:45:30.000 And that does seem to be sort of, if you want to get the answer to the question, why does somebody give the maximum sentence for such a piddling crime, I think you do have to talk about race.

01:45:42.000 And one of the things people did want to talk about in that town when you talked about race was what they called racial mixing or interracial dating or interracial sex.

01:45:49.000 And it had become a much more common phenomenon, obviously, than it was in their parents' generation.

01:45:54.000 And it was a great cause for concern in that town, and I do think that some of that sentiment underlies at least the length of the sentences involved.

01:46:02.000 Well, no one's safe when you can get 90 years in prison because people don't like you.

01:46:07.000 Why would he go after old black ranchers with no criminal record? 0.82

01:46:13.000 I mean, why would he just... I mean, did he get sloppy at the end? 0.78

01:46:17.000 Well, I think at first he was working off a list of names that the sheriff gave him, either in writing or verbally.

01:46:22.000 That was never fully established.

01:46:25.000 I think the sheriff told him, look, we know who the troublemakers are in this town.

01:46:28.000 These are the people we want you to get rid of.

01:46:30.000 And by troublemaker, I mean anybody that's ever given them any kind of trouble at all, including what we were just discussing about this interracial sex issue.

01:46:37.000 And so he started from that list.

01:46:40.000 I think the sheriff probably expected to make about eight or ten cases, and most of them would be crack or marijuana, because that was sort of the pattern of drug use in that community that the sheriff sent him into.

01:46:49.000 But instead, He started filing scores and scores of powdered cocaine cases, and he just wouldn't stop.

01:46:56.000 He filed 40 against 47 different defendants.

01:47:00.000 And if you stop and look at the numbers, there's only maybe 250, 300 black people in the town of Tulia.

01:47:06.000 He indicted 39 of them for delivering powdered cocaine.

01:47:09.000 That's over 1 in 5 of the adult population of the black community in Tulia.

01:47:16.000 Well, it's insane.

01:47:17.000 And then some people are, I don't care.

01:47:19.000 That's an isolated case.

01:47:21.000 Folks, it's not an isolated case.

01:47:23.000 And it's everybody's community that this is happening to.

01:47:25.000 But as Tony Brown has said on this show, they will take disadvantaged communities and target them.

01:47:30.000 And so you'll have an over-concentration or over-saturation.

01:47:35.000 That is, to boil it down, they'll get it even more severely.

01:47:39.000 But other communities, and we're now even seeing in some of the South Texas areas, which is something that you may not have been aware of, that will have Hispanic majorities then kind of doing things to whites and blacks.

01:47:54.000 So this can happen to any group at any time.

01:47:58.000 Whites can do it to Hispanics. 0.99

01:48:00.000 Blacks can do it to whites. 1.00

01:48:01.000 But predominantly when you have a population where it's mainly white, that's the old classic pattern. 0.99

01:48:07.000 So we see this everywhere and this is just scary.

01:48:10.000 I don't know, I mean obviously I haven't read your book yet, but I intend to get a copy.

01:48:18.000 You turned over a lot of stones.

01:48:21.000 Are there any other facets that the public may not be aware of?

01:48:24.000 Well, one of the things I wanted to make sure people understood is this is not just another story of those crazy Texans being Texans, but this was actually a program that was funded by the federal government.

01:48:35.000 It was hatched in the late 80s.

01:48:36.000 It's commonly called the Byrne Grant Task Force Program.

01:48:41.000 And that's what funded this operation in Thule, and that is what has funded a lot of the more scandal-ridden programs in Texas in narcotics.

01:48:51.000 The idea behind the Byrne Grant was that we can't put a DEA agent in every town, but maybe we can get the sheriffs and the local PDs to group together, form these regional task forces, if we'll send them the money.

01:49:01.000 The problem was that all they did was send them the money.

01:49:03.000 They never checked up to see exactly how well these things were performing.

01:49:08.000 Well, it's a bounty!

01:49:11.000 Yeah, and the logical conclusion of that was, in the state of Texas, the money went to the Governor's office.

01:49:16.000 The Governor parceled it out to these new task forces.

01:49:19.000 There were about 50 of them formed up almost overnight.

01:49:22.000 MJTF?

01:49:23.000 Yeah, Multi-Jurisdictional Task Force.

01:49:27.000 And what happened was, They made them compete with one another for this grant money.

01:49:33.000 So they actually came up with this formula to decide.

01:49:35.000 Stay there, let's talk about this because now it becomes a competitive sport.

01:49:39.000 So I'm driving along with my family and come up to a checkpoint and a bunch of cops from five counties want to search my car.

01:49:46.000 No!

01:49:47.000 No way, you Constitution-killing little creatures!

01:49:55.000 There is a secret that holds the world's destiny in its grasp.

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01:52:55.000 The Genesis Communications Radio Network proudly presents the Alex Jones Show.

01:53:01.000 Because there's a war on for your mind.

01:53:03.000 Folks, I've been out in the Texas Hill Country interviewing, and you can just go from house to house to house.

01:53:13.000 I mean, 150 year old old German rock houses, nice little farming families.

01:53:20.000 From house to house to house to house.

01:53:23.000 From neighborhood to neighborhood at corner stores.

01:53:27.000 And you go in and talk to them and they go, turn the camera off and I'll tell you, it's horrible.

01:53:31.000 They come in here with the machine guns.

01:53:33.000 They tell us to get on the ground.

01:53:34.000 They don't even have warrants.

01:53:36.000 And they literally, these MJTF, they just feed on everyone. 0.92

01:53:42.000 They just randomly just run around grabbing and snatching and kicking down doors and digging through things.

01:53:48.000 So long before I learned about Thulia, I was, you know, covering this and going out there with the camera crews.

01:53:56.000 So it isn't just black Americans.

01:53:58.000 Though, when you get mixed racism and MJTF, I guess since you don't find anything at the houses, you just go ahead and grab them.

01:54:08.000 But the new book is out, and it's Tulia.

01:54:12.000 Race, cocaine and corruption in a small Texas town.

01:54:16.000 And folks, every day I see articles from every corner of the nation where police are framing the citizens.

01:54:23.000 And I say, If anybody doesn't have credibility, it's the government and the police.

01:54:28.000 I mean, statistically, they're involved in more crime than we are, so why do we trust them?

01:54:33.000 You know, they treat us like we're all bad when we're not.

01:54:36.000 Well, then I say you're all bad!

01:54:38.000 And I know that our guests probably won't go that far, but I'm saying if the shoe fits, wear it.

01:54:44.000 Comments on what I've been talking about here, Nate.

01:54:48.000 Well, I think people have gotten to the point where they're ready to give up, in some circles, on this particular drug task force program.

01:54:56.000 And by that I mean there seems to be some enthusiasm waning in Washington for this program, partly because of the Thulia scandal.

01:55:04.000 There was a pretty major budget cut in the last couple of years.

01:55:08.000 And then here in Texas after the Thulia scandal, They announced a major reorganization of the program.

01:55:13.000 They were going to put it under DPS Narcotics.

01:55:15.000 And then the task forces just started dropping one after the other after Thulia, in part because of funding cuts, but also in part because they're all afraid of when their Thulia is going to come, when their multi-million dollar lawsuit is going to come, as happened in Thulia after the exonerations.

01:55:30.000 They get together with their insurance companies and the county judges and they say, you know, it's time to get out.

01:55:34.000 So we're all the way down to 25 task forces, and actually I think this morning it's 23 from a high of 50 in the late 90s.

01:55:41.000 So this particular program seems to be on the way out.

01:55:45.000 Well, I'll tell you, I mean, I'm not exaggerating.

01:55:48.000 Roving bands of people in camo playing Rambo.

01:55:53.000 Yeah.

01:55:54.000 One of the favorite quotes I have from the book is a state legislator, he called them brother-in-law types in ninja suits.

01:56:00.000 That was his description of him.

01:56:03.000 And he ought to know, he used to be on the board of one of those task forces and then he just got fed up with it.

01:56:10.000 Well, it's scary.

01:56:11.000 I mean, I've been to houses in Travis County where they just walk off the street and searched all the houses.

01:56:18.000 And I mean, talking to old ladies, and they make them sit in fire ants, and then, you know, no drugs are found, and they go into the renter's house and make fun of him for having a Playboy. 0.95

01:56:30.000 I mean, it's like, well, we didn't find drugs, but what's this Playboy?

01:56:34.000 I mean, just weird.

01:56:35.000 Yeah, the whole innocent-have-nothing-to-fear mentality seems to reign on those search warrants these days, or lack of search warrants, and that phenomenon you just described of shutting down an entire street, the bust-out as they call it, this is why they call them the jump-out boys in Texas, these task forces.

01:56:51.000 They call them the jump-out boys because they do just that.

01:56:53.000 They'll come in, they'll park a van and get down to the street and they'll jump out and try to get everybody to stay where they are until they can search everybody.

01:57:00.000 That's part of their, you know, they'll do these undercover operations that last six or twelve months, they'll build up a huge stack of arrest warrants, and then they'll try to go serve them all at once before anybody has a chance to run off, and that's when you get those big, sort of, police state-style jump-outs like you just described.

01:57:16.000 Well, in one case, oh, it's a whole other issue.

01:57:20.000 Sir, I really appreciate you coming on with us.

01:57:23.000 Well, thanks for having me.

01:57:25.000 I hope your book does very well.

01:57:26.000 I appreciate it.

01:57:28.000 You bet.

01:57:28.000 Take care.

01:57:29.000 We'll be right back, folks.

01:57:34.000 Order a copy of this show for your friends and family at GCNlive.com or call 877-300-7645.

01:57:40.000 Big Brother.

01:57:51.000 Mainstream media.

01:57:53.000 Government cover-ups.

01:57:55.000 You want answers?

01:57:56.000 Well, so does he.

01:57:58.000 He's Alex Jones on the GCN Radio Network.

01:58:02.000 And now, live from Austin, Texas, Alex Jones.

01:58:08.000 If you heard the last 30 minutes, we were talking to a Texas Monthly writer, former editor of the Texas Observer, Nate Lakesley about Thule, Texas.

01:58:22.000 And you heard my frustration.

01:58:25.000 There's no way to articulate or talk about it all.

01:58:28.000 Listen!

01:58:30.000 Listen, I wasn't brought up disliking police.

01:58:33.000 Okay?

01:58:36.000 It was in the mid-1990s that I began to watch the news, read the newspaper, research what the MJTF were doing.

01:58:47.000 And folks, they don't even look for reports of drugs.

01:58:50.000 They don't even... I mean, in some of the cases we saw, they would just... You're talking about women in camo flak jackets with big long red nails, with machine guns, with, you know, guys on roids stomping around slapping on their rear ends, laughing and kicking the family dog as people cry and cower and nothing illegal is found.

01:59:12.000 Well, we saw some marijuana plants in your backyard.

01:59:16.000 And it's blood weed that grows everywhere.

01:59:19.000 I mean, I don't know a backyard around here that isn't mowed continually that doesn't have some blood weed. 0.82

01:59:26.000 And then Margo Fraser, that disgusting sheriff we had, got up on TV! 0.98

01:59:33.000 Because I went out there and covered it and made a big stink about it.

01:59:36.000 Just one case.

01:59:37.000 She came on TV and said, we don't need warrants anymore.

01:59:40.000 In fact, we played that clip here on air.

01:59:43.000 That was about three years ago.

01:59:45.000 We don't need warrants anymore. 0.79

01:59:47.000 Well, why'd you need them before, you witch? 1.00

01:59:51.000 What's your major malfunction? 1.00

01:59:53.000 You're a criminal! 1.00

01:59:55.000 It is. 1.00

01:59:55.000 It's criminal. 1.00

01:59:57.000 There's only ten of them.

01:59:58.000 They're the Ten Amendments. 0.86

02:00:00.000 They're the big laws.

02:00:01.000 They're the big ones.

02:00:03.000 You understand that?

02:00:07.000 And, uh, they still do it.

02:00:10.000 And it gets cops killed, it gets innocent citizens killed, and then your bosses bring in the cocaine and heroin. 0.98

02:00:16.000 The government brings this trash in and then has the nerve to tell us to give up all of our freedoms or it's all over. 1.00

02:00:26.000 I don't use your trash and I'll never use your trash. 0.99

02:00:31.000 But I want the drugs decriminalized and I want it done now. 0.63

02:00:35.000 And by the way folks, don't think that we can't effect change.

02:00:38.000 People didn't like the speed limit being 55.

02:00:40.000 It's about to go up from 70 to 80.

02:00:43.000 Citizens don't like a lot of things.

02:00:45.000 I was thinking this weekend of all the things we've changed.

02:00:47.000 There's been lots of stuff we've changed.

02:00:50.000 And these MJTF groups are in trouble and are getting shut down.

02:00:55.000 Because it just lends itself to criminality.

02:00:57.000 It lends itself to sloppiness.

02:00:59.000 I mean, you take some little police force of 10 people and you give them a million bucks to be MJTF, And then all these guys, all these Barney Fives become Commando Kings.

02:01:10.000 They're going to shoot their own cops. 0.80

02:01:12.000 They're going to shoot the neighbor. 1.00

02:01:13.000 They're going to shoot the dog. 1.00

02:01:14.000 They're going to shoot the old lady. 1.00

02:01:16.000 And then it doesn't matter what you pull, you're going to be hated and you're going to get in trouble! 0.97

02:01:22.000 So knock it off!

02:01:26.000 All over the country, thumb skinners are going in to buy and sell. 1.00

02:01:30.000 And I got him on for a minute or so, and we got cut short.

02:01:34.000 So, after the break, we're going to bring up John Harmon, who works at the network, up in Minneapolis-St.

02:01:41.000 Paul, where the thumb scanners were going in.

02:01:43.000 I want to spend just a few minutes on this.

02:01:45.000 Then we've got Vicki Karp coming on, and she'll tell you all about the latest developments concerning electronic voting machine fraud.

02:01:57.000 So it's all coming up after this quick break.

02:02:01.000 And we will be taking calls in this hour at 1-800-259-9231.

02:02:06.000 But listen, I don't try to just get up here and gripe and complain.

02:02:11.000 Some people say, well, you've got to be a positive thinker.

02:02:14.000 Look on the positive side.

02:02:16.000 I am positive.

02:02:18.000 We are positively going to kick the New World Order's hind end.

02:02:23.000 I am positively going to fight this enemy. 0.97

02:02:26.000 It's like if my legs cut off, I'm going to tie a tourniquet around it.

02:02:30.000 I'm not going to say, oh gee, I hope it stops bleeding.

02:02:33.000 I hope I don't bleed to death.

02:02:36.000 No, I'm going to be doing it as fast as I can before I go into shock.

02:02:39.000 I'm going to be putting a tourniquet on that leg.

02:02:41.000 That's positive, brother!

02:02:46.000 What really happened September 11th, and who stands to gain?

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02:05:38.000 He's the T-Rex of political talk.

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02:05:48.000 Alex Jones on the GCN Radio Network.

02:05:51.000 All right, Vicki Karp agreed to come on on short notice.

02:05:58.000 She is out and about Central Texas as a commercial realtor and we're honored to have her via cell phone.

02:06:05.000 She's pulled over right now.

02:06:06.000 We're going to be talking to her for the next 15 minutes and yes, we're going to open the phones up.

02:06:11.000 You want to get involved on air.

02:06:13.000 Vicki has become one of the national leaders of Amongst many who are fighting to expose the fraudulent nature of these electronic voting machines and how they're designed to have back doors and how the big companies have been caught red-handed stealing elections.

02:06:30.000 This is red-handed!

02:06:33.000 Okay?

02:06:35.000 But still the average person by the time they read the newspaper is, oh there were a few problems but a federal commission's fixing it and then their fix is

02:06:44.000 federal funds to put the fraudulent machines in everywhere but this weekend I went with my wife and children down on the Texas beach just to spend time with the family for a few days and I don't watch TV but I said you know I'm gonna watch some preachers and so I was watching TV and I was just like man you know these are great preachers and a lot of good information but

02:07:12.000 The underlying theme was, be positive, be positive.

02:07:16.000 Magical thinking.

02:07:17.000 If you're just positive, it'll make everything good happen.

02:07:21.000 And ignore the bad.

02:07:24.000 And folks, I was sitting there for hours at night, when the family was asleep, reading the Bible.

02:07:31.000 And everything I read, I mean, these guys would call this negative.

02:07:36.000 You know, the government's corrupt, it's evil, it wants to cheat you, don't trust it.

02:07:40.000 Fight the enemy, you know, they come to enslave you.

02:07:44.000 I mean, you think I get radical on air.

02:07:46.000 I was reading the Bible.

02:07:47.000 It was just absolutely zealous, which is great.

02:07:52.000 It really strengthened me.

02:07:53.000 I'm like, man, I've got to read this more often.

02:07:56.000 And I was reading Proverbs and Psalms, you know, the really good stuff in there.

02:08:05.000 I couldn't put it down, but at the same time I was watching TVN several nights in a row.

02:08:10.000 And I could do hours on this, and we've got Vicki Karp holding, and we've got John Harmon with some comments I want him to tell you.

02:08:19.000 Just a little story.

02:08:20.000 So again, I'm so overwhelmed here.

02:08:22.000 So much information.

02:08:23.000 Very frustrating.

02:08:24.000 But to make a long story short and sweet, which is impossible for me to do, as you know well, the windbag that I am.

02:08:36.000 If my leg is cut off, And blood is squirting 15 feet.

02:08:43.000 I can tie a tourniquet around my leg, pull my shirt off, tie a tight knot around my leg and save my life, or I can be positive and just say, no, I'm losing weight right now.

02:08:55.000 This is a good healthy bleeding.

02:08:57.000 My leg's cut off at the knee, blood sprang out of giant arteries and veins, but everything's okay.

02:09:04.000 No, it is a positive action to admit that my leg is cut off and to tie a tourniquet around it.

02:09:11.000 It'd be like if I said, I'll just be positive.

02:09:14.000 I can build a boat made out of lead, a solid block of lead, and claim that it's a boat, and here I'll tie myself to it and throw it into the ocean, and if I'm just positive, why, this block of lead will float on top of the water.

02:09:30.000 Well, you're going to have a really bad experience if you try that, so please don't try it.

02:09:33.000 You will drown.

02:09:34.000 It will take you to the bottom.

02:09:36.000 No, I'm very positive, folks, but it was every show, night after night, I was watching it, hours of it, and most of what they were saying was great, but there was this underlying thing of, be positive, ignore the bad, and there was nothing about the New World Order, there was nothing about the loss of liberty, there was nothing about I mean, it's a preacher's job to be fighting corruption, to be tackling the tough targets.

02:09:59.000 I saw some documentary about Billy Graham, the Great Souls, or something.

02:10:04.000 And it was just all about how he didn't rumple feathers, and he just gave a positive message, and it saved all these people.

02:10:11.000 Well, are these people really saved, folks?

02:10:13.000 I mean, again, I'm not trying to be a preacher here, it's just that Every time I get on and tell you what the transponders are going to do, or every time I get on and tell you what they're going to do with RFID, or every time I get on and tell you what they're going to do with your cell phone, the tax and trace, now mainstream news, I get emails going, don't be so negative.

02:10:32.000 Or every time I get on the air and talk about electronic voting machines being a fraud.

02:10:37.000 We've caught them!

02:10:38.000 It's why don't you just be more positive?

02:10:40.000 Oh, it isn't that bad.

02:10:42.000 Yes, it is that bad.

02:10:43.000 And it is positive to meet the threat head-on and deal with it.

02:10:48.000 I'm a go-getter.

02:10:50.000 I know we can take this country back.

02:10:52.000 But we cannot do it if the 51st state in the U.S.

02:10:56.000 is called denial.

02:10:59.000 It is time to stand up against this.

02:11:02.000 It is time to get involved.

02:11:04.000 And that's what we're going to do.

02:11:06.000 And just in closing before we go to Vicki, a little side caveat story.

02:11:12.000 All over the country, gas stations, banks, grocery stores, shopping malls, theme parks, gotta thumb scan, gotta face scan, gotta wear an RFID bracelet, oh you get half off, you get 10% off.

02:11:28.000 They put in 10 self-serve lines, and after a year, they pull the two service lines.

02:11:34.000 Now you gotta use the self-checkout.

02:11:36.000 Now they put thumb scanners in.

02:11:37.000 Ooh, it's a 10% discount if you enroll in this!

02:11:41.000 Then everybody enrolls.

02:11:43.000 Then now you're biometrically scanning.

02:11:46.000 It's part of the national ID card they're now standardizing.

02:11:49.000 And people were still in denial.

02:11:52.000 Now it's happening.

02:11:53.000 They're literally penalizing you to buy and sell if you don't take their digital mark.

02:12:00.000 Where have we heard of this before?

02:12:02.000 John Harmon.

02:12:04.000 Briefly, tell folks... I mean, describe what you heard on this show and now what you're witnessing at the major grocery store chain in your town.

02:12:13.000 Yep, I saw it for myself.

02:12:15.000 I went to the self-checkout line, and sure enough, now they have the thumb scanners in.

02:12:21.000 And, you know, it has nothing to do with security or identity theft.

02:12:26.000 It has everything to do with getting everyone into this database system, where eventually, you know, everything will be tied into the database.

02:12:36.000 You know, medical records, bank account, everything.

02:12:39.000 You're right.

02:12:39.000 Well, that's already happening.

02:12:41.000 Now, I've talked to you off air.

02:12:44.000 You were talking about how most the people have now, you know, don't like using the self-checkout, but they keep cutting it back.

02:12:50.000 I mean, I've gone to Home Depot and Albertsons, folks, at like 8 o'clock, 10 o'clock at night, and now I'm told that Albertsons is like this all the time.

02:12:59.000 There just are not checkers.

02:13:02.000 Yeah.

02:13:03.000 There's just no one around, so you have to use it.

02:13:09.000 Now, you talked about the news.

02:13:11.000 You said the news was announcing that As this was being implemented, the 2 million people in Minneapolis-St.

02:13:16.000 Paul, or over half the population, had already enrolled in this, but when you were there, you took notice of how many people really were using it.

02:13:25.000 Yeah, no one was using them, and they said on the 10 o'clock news that they already had like 2 million sign-ups.

02:13:31.000 Which is just a big fat lie.

02:13:33.000 I wonder if Club Foods has 2 million customers.

02:13:36.000 I mean, do they have that much of the market to begin with?

02:13:40.000 Club Foods, yeah, they are pretty big around here.

02:13:42.000 It's Rainbow Foods, Club Foods, but yeah, they are pretty big.

02:13:47.000 But how many are in Minneapolis-St.

02:13:49.000 Paul?

02:13:52.000 I'd say 4 or 5 million.

02:13:54.000 I mean, that's just a big lie.

02:13:56.000 There's no way.

02:13:56.000 I mean, it's so new.

02:13:59.000 I mean, we just got this in here, you know, in the past month.

02:14:03.000 So, there's just no way.

02:14:06.000 But you were, you know, if you can get in there with a camera and just show that... Yeah, I will.

02:14:13.000 I plan on doing that.

02:14:14.000 There's so much I want to do, so much I want to bring you folks, and here I am bugging the fellow that answers the phones and runs the show and does the job of three people.

02:14:24.000 Get in there and get me video of that! 0.84

02:14:28.000 It's just amazing.

02:14:29.000 Well, John, I appreciate you coming on with us.

02:14:32.000 No problem.

02:14:33.000 I'm again speechless.

02:14:34.000 I just... I warned people a decade ago about this.

02:14:40.000 Not because I'm special or because I have a crystal ball.

02:14:44.000 I read industry publications.

02:14:48.000 You want to see what they call you.

02:14:51.000 You want to hear what they say about us.

02:14:54.000 And it's so horrible what they're doing.

02:14:56.000 This whole system is to abuse you.

02:14:58.000 Alright, Vicki Karp's been holding for 10 minutes and she's just a great lady. 0.96

02:15:06.000 Just type Vicki Karp into Google.

02:15:08.000 You can read the local news 8 article.

02:15:09.000 Type Vicki Karp voting into Google and you'll get dozens of articles around the country.

02:15:15.000 She's got billboards put up in town.

02:15:17.000 They're taking action.

02:15:18.000 They're having meetings.

02:15:20.000 She's fighting them.

02:15:21.000 She's taking action, and she's a testament to what you can do.

02:15:25.000 Vicki, thanks for coming on with us.

02:15:26.000 Thank you, Alex.

02:15:29.000 Vicki, I want to get into the election fraud, but if you can right now, tell us how you woke up to all this.

02:15:35.000 I have to give you the credit for that.

02:15:36.000 I was, as I am now, sitting in my car on my way to get a bite to eat, and I heard you interviewing Dev Harris on the radio about two summers ago.

02:15:45.000 And I pulled over and started taking notes to make a Toastmasters speech out of it, because I thought, man, this stuff... I actually didn't believe my ears, but when I got on her website, I found out that she was only able to cover just a few of the unbelievable points about the D-Bulb software that she discovered on the Internet, and how it was pretty much, as she clearly discovered, designed for fraud.

02:16:07.000 And that got me going.

02:16:10.000 I started out by giving talks to my Toastmasters groups, and then the next thing I knew, I was talking to Republicans, Democrats, the Truth Seekers here in Austin, Legal Women Voters meetings, other citizens.

02:16:22.000 I've been taking it not on the road out of town too much, but within the city of Austin.

02:16:28.000 I've become a local spokesperson for it.

02:16:31.000 And then ran into my friend Abby Delosier, who's been helping and doing a great job of media.

02:16:37.000 Well, it's hard to do a great job with most of the media.

02:16:41.000 We put on these two press conferences in Washington, D.C.

02:16:44.000 last year for Bev Harris and a couple of computer programmers who demonstrated six ways to hack an election with Beebold and Pecoya software.

02:16:53.000 So, Abby's been doing a great job.

02:16:56.000 Well, I want to go over all this because, again, folks, one piece of literally thousands of pieces of red-handed, you know, coup de grace evidence Is the fact that they actually found the manual online with the software on their website. 0.91

02:17:13.000 Their idiot programmers had left it on the server where the public could find it through a back door. 0.91

02:17:19.000 And it was a manual on how to steal elections. 1.00

02:17:22.000 We'll be right back with Vicki Karp.

02:17:25.000 Amazing lady. 0.89

02:17:26.000 Hey, where are you out there?

02:17:28.000 Who are the other Vicky Carps out there?

02:17:30.000 Who are the other men out there? 0.98

02:17:32.000 But instead of sucking your thumbs and whining, where are you? 0.97

02:17:37.000 We need you to take action. 0.99

02:17:38.000 More of you.

02:17:39.000 That's how we're going to defeat the New World Order.

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02:21:45.000 We're talking to Vicki Karp, voting activist with the Coalition for Divisible Balance.

02:22:01.000 Thank you.

02:22:03.000 If you go to infowars.com, we've got some links to some of the current news articles about Vicki's work.

02:22:10.000 And you know I don't lavish people with praise normally, it's just that Anybody who from zero in just a few years is able to reach millions of people needs to be commended.

02:22:22.000 And anybody who is informed and involved and passionate can have that type of effect.

02:22:30.000 I mean, I'm nobody special.

02:22:32.000 Listen, my children aren't going to be free unless you're free.

02:22:35.000 Unless you get involved.

02:22:37.000 And, Vicki, I think a lot of people just have trouble dealing with the full magnitude.

02:22:43.000 Well, I wouldn't steal an election.

02:22:45.000 Well, that certainly wouldn't be happening all over the country.

02:22:47.000 Well, I just can't believe it.

02:22:49.000 But we've caught them red-handed, Vicki.

02:22:55.000 Well, I'd say that the non-belief of the public is one of the biggest obstacles we have on getting something done.

02:23:02.000 I want to say regarding, you know, the proof that's out there, Alex, I don't think we have actual proof of a specific election official or individual hacking an election, but what we do have is a lot of evidence about how easy it is, about the obvious features of the software, both Diebold and Sequoia, both of which had their software, left their software online, as you said, on the web.

02:23:26.000 So the software of those two companies, of the top four, have been reviewed very carefully.

02:23:31.000 And Bev Harris and her team of experts, in particular, have discovered just recently even more flagrant, obvious design features for hacking.

02:23:43.000 And so what we have is we don't have exactly a red-handed situation, which would be great.

02:23:49.000 But we do have a lot of evidence that the software of these two companies, at least, was designed for fraud.

02:23:57.000 Well, Vicki, when I say red-handed, when Diebold has a convicted computer hacker, convicted for computer crimes, running the California elections for Diebold, and then you have all sorts of weird number flipping, There have been thousands of cases with these big companies with just all sorts of fraud.

02:24:21.000 They call them mistakes going on.

02:24:23.000 And then you have the built-in back doors on top of it.

02:24:26.000 I mean, you know, did we catch the robber with the black mask with the bags of money in his hands?

02:24:31.000 No!

02:24:32.000 But, you know, we found the money at his house.

02:24:35.000 Well, I agree.

02:24:36.000 I mean, the circumstantial evidence could bury the whole nation.

02:24:39.000 I mean, people looked at it.

02:24:41.000 Where most of us believe, and I'm sure you're very well aware, that probably the election in 2004 was stolen for Bush in Ohio.

02:24:50.000 Bob Petrakis, together with some other folks, put together a book on just what happened in Ohio.

02:24:56.000 The book weighs about 25 pounds.

02:24:58.000 I mean, there is all kinds of evidence.

02:24:59.000 And that there was voter suppression involved there and voter discrimination as well as electronic voting machine manipulation and very likely a rigged recount there as well.

02:25:11.000 So there's just scrupulousness.

02:25:15.000 It's so deep in so many different places, it's just hard to track it all.

02:25:21.000 Well, what we know is this.

02:25:23.000 As you said, you can take the software, you can take these machines, and in 30 seconds, experts are able to break in right in front of the news media.

02:25:33.000 You guys have had press conferences in Houston, in DC, all over.

02:25:38.000 Start telling us about that.

02:25:39.000 I mean, we know that these things are designed for fraud, and then why are they still being used?

02:25:47.000 Great question.

02:25:47.000 We would love to know the answer to that.

02:25:49.000 Well, the first big hack that Bev discovered was the hidden second set of books in the D-Bulb software, in what's called the central tabulator software.

02:26:01.000 That's where all the final vote totals are stored.

02:26:04.000 What she discovered was that separate precinct totals within a county were stored, for example, on one screen.

02:26:13.000 And then the final totals would be stored on another screen of the software program.

02:26:19.000 She could get in a back door and get to the final vote total page or screen, flip election results and come out and then getting back into the official version, which the election officials are showing when they get in there, the election results would have been flipped.

02:26:37.000 And then magically and literally, folks, hundreds and hundreds of elections, that very thing happens.

02:26:50.000 And long before people even knew about this, we would call it flipping.

02:26:53.000 Back in the 98 election, for Save Our Springs and other issues, I have seen numbers actually flip.

02:27:01.000 Yeah, it's a phenomenon that's occurred in so many places.

02:27:05.000 I would advise listeners to get on the votersunite.org website, and there's all kinds of statistical evidence there.

02:27:15.000 That's one of my best sources for information.

02:27:17.000 I quote them quite a bit.

02:27:19.000 Well, stay there, Vicki.

02:27:20.000 We've got plenty of time coming up, and we'll take some calls.

02:27:20.000 We've got a break again.

02:27:23.000 But yeah, let's go over some of the Some of the smoking gun evidence of how these things are designed for fraud.

02:27:31.000 We'll be right back.

02:27:36.000 We're on the march.

02:27:37.000 The Empire's on the run.

02:27:39.000 Alex Jones and the GCN Radio Network.

02:27:45.000 Hey, Jack Blood here from Deadline Live.

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02:30:44.000 We're talking to Vicious Card, voting integrity activist and lecturer.

02:31:08.000 Vicki, joining us via cell phone from here in Austin, Texas.

02:31:12.000 Vicki, can you, I mean specifically, as I heard one of the speeches you gave recently, and of course I was aware of much of the information you were covering, but I'd like to hear you recap that for the audience.

02:31:23.000 But you were talking about cases of major universities looking at Bev Harris and her scientist findings, and many others.

02:31:32.000 I mean, this is the integrity of our republic, of our voting system.

02:31:38.000 And then you've got these companies saying it's proprietary, you can't look under the hood, shut up, just trust us.

02:31:45.000 For decades before that, we've had voter news services.

02:31:49.000 Some secretive group with armed guards who magically tells us who wins the election?

02:31:54.000 I mean, we've got serious problems here.

02:31:57.000 Go over some of that for us.

02:32:01.000 Well, I think Bev and her team, they've come up with some even more explosive evidence about the default software in recent months.

02:32:11.000 And that can be found in detail on blackboxvoting.org, her website, to capitalize it for you.

02:32:19.000 There's a computer programmer and security engineer from Finland named Hari Hursti, H-U-R-S-T-I.

02:32:26.000 And she met up with him in Florida and he's been doing contract work for her.

02:32:31.000 And so they actually had an invitation from an election official in Leon County, Florida, Ian Fancho, who I wish every election official in the country had the integrity of this man.

02:32:42.000 He'd been sold the Diebold optical scan counters, which are used to count paper ballots.

02:32:48.000 He wanted them to come in and just see what they could do to the software that ran those op scan counters and just see if that system was as secure as what he had been told by the vendors and the state, and I guess the Secretary of State's office.

02:33:01.000 And they went in there, and I think also Dr. Herbert Thompson was there, and Cynthia McKinney was a witness, and Representative Corinne Brown.

02:33:09.000 They were both there watching this.

02:33:10.000 And they went a couple of times, and they just tore that software apart, came in and hacked in several different ways.

02:33:18.000 Within, you know, 60 to 90 seconds and but what a disturbing thing that they found.

02:33:23.000 Two of the disturbing things they found that up till now I don't think have been out there.

02:33:28.000 One, these optical scan counters which some people take comfort in because they're counting paper ballots which is of course everybody's looking to return people that have been

02:33:38.000 You know, working on this, you're saying, let's go back to paper ballots, but when you have these optical scan counters, they have the same software that I was describing earlier, the same central tabulator software that has the secret backdoor, and Harry Hersey found that there's a, there's like a programming card that you, that downloads all the totals from each counter.

02:34:00.000 He found a live program in the, he, that called, that refers to it as the electronic ballot box, and this little card Well, for those that don't know, I wanted to understand how this worked.

02:34:09.000 the central tabulator to tally up the vote there's a live program in there that can manipulate the totals into the central tabulator however it's programmed to do well for those that don't know I wanted to understand how this worked back in 1996 I went and worked downtown at the old convention center there and And you even get paid.

02:34:33.000 It's like six, seven bucks an hour to run the machines.

02:34:38.000 And all I would do is make sure the ballots that people have done, you know, the bubble scantrons, the optical scanners, like an SAT test in college or high school, were facing the right direction and stacked properly when they've been put in the ballot box.

02:34:53.000 And then after we had fed these into the big machines, they'd all been shipped there in ballot boxes, they then come up with this little computer card package, and they cram it into the machine and then pull it out, then they walk over and stick it into a bigger computer.

02:35:10.000 And so again, it's already computerized, and that's exactly what we were told by computer hacking experts and people that have been exposing this in the past, is that it was a very primitive system, mainly of flipping.

02:35:24.000 And we did indeed catch a lot of flipping.

02:35:27.000 We had seen flipping even before I discovered this was a national problem, Vicky.

02:35:32.000 So we've got to go back to the actual paper ballots that are looked at by humans, the old-fashioned way we used to do it.

02:35:41.000 Absolutely, and not only that, and counted in public view.

02:35:45.000 And that's the part where I lose a lot of people.

02:35:48.000 And it's amazing what people say.

02:35:52.000 I've heard people say, well that's so archaic.

02:35:54.000 And recently, when I gave the talk you were referring to, that I gave recently to a citizen's group, I had somebody say, but what about the networks?

02:36:02.000 They want to report the results quickly.

02:36:04.000 And I just started laughing.

02:36:05.000 I said, what?

02:36:07.000 I don't care about the network.

02:36:09.000 Are you telling me that you would rather have a fast tally than an efficient one?

02:36:13.000 I mean, what are you saying?

02:36:14.000 I mean, it's so absurd, I can't even believe it, but it's not like no one does this in the world.

02:36:20.000 Canada holds their elections this way, and so does Australia.

02:36:25.000 And other countries, too.

02:36:26.000 I'm not sure which ones, but I know those two do.

02:36:28.000 Well, Stalin said, I don't care who casts the votes, I care who counts them.

02:36:32.000 Absolutely, and so, you know, it's unfortunate that within the movement of people that are trying to get our elections back, there has been, I guess, a sort of a division, unfortunately, and a lot of the people are working to promote legislation to add printers to the machines, but see, that's the other part of what Harry Hersey discovered, is that you can add a printer to one of these machines, and at least on the Diebold software, That count can still be manipulated to where you could get a paper ballot slash receipt.

02:37:01.000 You don't usually get to walk out with that.

02:37:03.000 But you can get something that verifies the way you just voted, but the machine will be recording something different.

02:37:09.000 So adding a printer isn't necessary.

02:37:12.000 I mean, we know with default.

02:37:13.000 We know that that does not work.

02:37:15.000 So even though we don't know for sure if ES&S or HART, for example, we don't know.

02:37:20.000 We haven't seen their software.

02:37:22.000 No one's seen it, but we know that Deebold has that feature.

02:37:25.000 So why should we trust that the others don't have it?

02:37:27.000 Nobody can prove that you don't have it if they won't let you see the software.

02:37:31.000 Well, we know back in the late '90s, Karen Sunlightner, county commissioner, was losing, but in the middle of the night, when she threw a fit and started crying, the county clerk came and comforted her, It was in the paper and magically she won.

02:37:51.000 And then it was in the paper that the state looked at what the county clerk had done, who I know you know and I don't want to say anything mean about, but they looked at what she'd done and said, oh, she accidentally double-counted ballot boxes and falsified signatures and broke safety seals. 1.00

02:38:06.000 So, you know, we have all the old-fashioned stuff.

02:38:08.000 We have LBJ and Box 13 and stuffing the ballot boxes, but still, that doesn't allow the industrialized, mass nature of this.

02:38:20.000 We can fight good old-fashioned corruption, and I think the answer is having citizens being involved, having the paper ballots counted at the precinct, then being double-checked and recounted with witnesses and video cameras, with live feeds on the internet, at the downtown facilities, and to not have these things touch a dirty computer.

02:38:45.000 Absolutely, absolutely.

02:38:47.000 Well, and to demonstrate to the public what that might look like, that's why we're going to be holding what we call a parallel election with paper ballots here in Austin in Travis County, November the 8th.

02:38:58.000 We won't be able to cover very many precincts.

02:39:00.000 It's going to be kind of a, this is our first try at doing something like this, but we're going to be inviting voters.

02:39:06.000 To come out after voting on the heart machines and come out and cast their ballot again on paper and then invite them to come back at 7 o'clock and actually watch the votes be counted.

02:39:16.000 Okay, and is there a local website where we can find out more about this?

02:39:21.000 Well, there will be in a few days, but for now people can just call 775-3737 and to get more information, but I think we may, we've been getting a lot of great response and a lot of volunteers Basically, a lot of it coming from Radio Free Austin publicity, and we're so grateful for that.

02:39:43.000 We're looking to have a real widespread political spectrum.

02:39:48.000 I know all over the city you guys are going to be doing this.

02:39:51.000 Just to demonstrate, I mean it's a great tactic to show the media what a real election looks like to illustrate this.

02:40:00.000 Give us that phone number, Vicki.

02:40:02.000 Yeah, it's 775-3737.

02:40:06.000 And I think in a few more days we will have a website, so we'll be trying to get that information out there.

02:40:10.000 We had a kind citizen who heard this on Radio Free Austin call and offered to do that for us.

02:40:16.000 Well, that's good.

02:40:17.000 It's all working together.

02:40:19.000 That's how we get this done.

02:40:20.000 But for those that just joined us, it is encyclopedic.

02:40:24.000 It is voluminous.

02:40:25.000 It is the size of a library.

02:40:29.000 The amount of evidence to try to chronicle it all, and I've been saying day one, don't let them go with a printer because they'll just print the fraudulent, they'll give you your results but then fraudulently announce the total results later and you have no way of verifying this.

02:40:50.000 But if Diebold, which we keep talking about Diebold, they're the biggest Seller and maintainer of electronic voting machine systems in the country.

02:41:01.000 They're the same people that are one of the biggest providers of ATM machines or automatic teller machines.

02:41:08.000 Folks, if automatic teller machines had this type of software or this type of program, no one's data, no one's bank account would be safe.

02:41:16.000 I mean, imagine them putting the data on the internet with the codes that a 10-year-old could go into the Diebold systems into your bank account and take your money.

02:41:25.000 Those things are built very, in a very secure fashion.

02:41:28.000 But then they also then simultaneously put out machines that are designed, and I've also talked to programmers, it's been in the news, not just to get in, but then to cover their tracks when they go out.

02:41:40.000 Very sophisticated programs.

02:41:42.000 Oh, absolutely.

02:41:43.000 There's so many layers of... Well, Hari Hirst, here's a quote from him.

02:41:48.000 He compared the scanners, and this is the Diebold optical scanners, to a house with an unlockable revolving door.

02:41:56.000 And he said, the system has the mother of security holes and no apparent cure will produce system safety.

02:42:03.000 And after witnessing all the hacking that he and Herbert Thompson did, you know, Bev was asked, At a hearing recently, if she thought there was any way to fix the problem.

02:42:12.000 You know, there's so many ideas being thrown around, like adding some sort of a cryptography where you get some barcode or something, you go home to your computer and check and see if you did or didn't vote.

02:42:23.000 If your vote was or was not recorded or whatever.

02:42:26.000 There are all these different suggestions that are just adding other layers of technology.

02:42:30.000 Well, then they know how you voted!

02:42:31.000 Now it's part of the National ID Card! 0.95

02:42:34.000 Well, yeah, and that's, yeah, we know how ridiculous that idea is.

02:42:37.000 Anyway, her question, the question posed to her was, is there any way that she could see that you could, you know, through technology, to fix this?

02:42:45.000 And she said, she said, without having hand-counted paper ballots, there's just no way to ever figure out the hack.

02:42:50.000 And she has said that, as you were saying, of course, we know paper ballot elections aren't foolproof.

02:42:55.000 We know that ballot boxes can be stuff, but you can't Flip an election and flip a million votes for a candidate with one stroke of a key on a computer keyboard with paper ballot elections.

02:43:08.000 It's not possible.

02:43:10.000 Well, history shows that, and there's a reason the politicians are so arrogant right now.

02:43:16.000 There's a reason Rick Perry smiles at us when 98% of Texans are against the toll roads or major streets.

02:43:24.000 There's a reason he just laughs at you.

02:43:26.000 Because they've got enough of their machines in place now, already, to frustrate the will of the people.

02:43:33.000 And that's why we're seeing election results that we've never seen before.

02:43:38.000 In California, Gray Davis won all the areas where they didn't have Diebold machines, but in the major populated cities, Arnold then won by about 10% and that flipped it.

02:43:53.000 Normally, not normally, always with demographics, it's more evenly distributed.

02:43:58.000 Now we're seeing Howard Dean lose on all the Diebold machines and John Kerry win on all the Diebold, but then Howard Dean then wins on all the others.

02:44:09.000 Folks, understand, we're seeing the fraud.

02:44:13.000 And again, I'm not saying I like Howard Dean, I'm not saying I like Ray Davis.

02:44:17.000 The point is, we report on the clear evidence.

02:44:21.000 I mean, it's right there, and we're just willing to look at it for what it is.

02:44:26.000 Vicki?

02:44:27.000 Yeah, I agree with all of that.

02:44:29.000 And then, you know, exit polls, which have been Considered reliable for years, and we even used them in Venezuela, and Ukraine I think got a second election based on exit polls that didn't agree with official results.

02:44:42.000 However, here, in the United States, in the 2004 election, exit polls are being thrown out, saying, oh, well, they're not matching up, they're not being done right, or they're not reliable.

02:44:52.000 But studies have been done by mathematicians and statisticians about the results of exit polls from 2004's election, And likelihood of them being so far off from the official results, and after boiling down the data, the consensus was that there was a 1 in 969,000 chance that exit polls could have been so long in predicting the outcome of the 2004 presidential election.

02:45:18.000 There's so much evidence at my home office.

02:45:23.000 I've got boxes and files and filing cabinets filled with it.

02:45:26.000 It was in the gazillion quadrillions.

02:45:28.000 Unpronounceable numbers with 50 something zeros.

02:45:29.000 mainstream very much reporting on this naturally. - It was in the gazillion quadrillions, I mean, unpronounceable numbers, you know, with 50 something zeros, it's not true, 48 zeros, that you would have the exact same drill, the exact same places at the exact same time that you would have the exact same drill, the exact same places at the exact same time for And that was only with a ten year meme.

02:45:29.000 It's not true.

02:45:54.000 And folks, this is how they investigate stock fraud and things like that.

02:45:58.000 They look at statistics.

02:46:00.000 And conservatively, you look at the stuff that's happening, it's impossible.

02:46:05.000 But it's not just that.

02:46:06.000 We've had Diebold employees quit and go public and say that things are bad.

02:46:10.000 We've had major universities have looked at the research and found that, yes, we've got big problems.

02:46:16.000 I mean, it's not just Bev Harris.

02:46:19.000 Yes.

02:46:19.000 In fact, when Bev did her first, when she first discovered that Diebold software, that was in July of 2003, I believe.

02:46:25.000 And in July, She did her first hack with the help of a computer programmer, executed her first hack, which took her a few minutes then, now it's down to like less than 60 seconds.

02:46:37.000 But in the same time frame, Johns Hopkins University computer scientists and security engineers got hold of that software and they did a very intensive study and the short conclusion was, they said electronic voting was a threat to our democracy.

02:46:55.000 Of course, they should have said republic, but anyway.

02:46:58.000 And that's John Hopkins.

02:46:59.000 I mean, this is mathematicians, this is computer science experts, engineers, looking at this.

02:47:07.000 And just a program note, I said we'd take calls, but what happened is everybody called in from the first two hours that wanted to call, because I had five guests on today, and then no one's even able to get through to talk to you, Vicki Karp.

02:47:21.000 So I'm just going to let all the callers go right now, and maybe, If somebody is able to get through who wants to talk to Vicki Carb about her work or about Harris' work or any of it, then you'll be welcome to 1-800-259-9231.

02:47:36.000 We'll take one or two calls in the next segment.

02:47:42.000 Normally, I take calls throughout the whole three hours, but some days we have guests on and I want to cram a few on today, but if it's not on topic, we can't.

02:47:51.000 Because we're specifically talking about election fraud.

02:47:54.000 And we have caught governments, mayors and others in good old classic fraud many times, but you're right, Vicki, that this is the mother of just institutionalized Stealing of our process, and do you agree with me that that's why we see such arrogance now out of government?

02:48:15.000 Is because it's kind of an unspoken snickering that they know this is happening?

02:48:20.000 I do, and I'd like to add on to that after the break.

02:48:23.000 Okay, we'll wrap things up with Vicki Karp on the other side, take a few calls, and maybe have time to plug the videos and books that I hope you'll get.

02:48:31.000 Because we need your support, but that's secondary.

02:48:34.000 These are powerful books and videos.

02:48:36.000 Check them out at our bookstore at InfoWars.com or get an online membership at PrisonPlanet.tv.

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02:51:49.000 Don't worry, this show is documented.

02:51:52.000 Alex Jones on the GCN Radio Network.

02:51:55.000 Alright, Steve and Paula, all the calls we have time to take, both from Missouri.

02:52:02.000 We'll go to them here in just a minute or two.

02:52:05.000 Vicki, you wanted to comment on the point we were just making before the break?

02:52:09.000 Yeah, about officials being kind of smug.

02:52:11.000 I think that they have good reason to be because In the very Hegelian sense, the federal government has created a situation through the Health America Vote Act where they have states and individual counties going out there and purchasing these electronic machines so that they can get federal funds that are being held out there as a carrot and they have until January of 2006 to buy them or they don't get the federal funds.

02:52:40.000 And this was all created as a so-called result, the problem, reaction, solution situation.

02:52:46.000 It was so clear to me in the 2000 election in Florida, where I think that election was stolen, where the so-called hanging chad... And then Chuckie Simmer has a plan, and him and George Bush team up, and then they have six billion dollars, and then they put these in all over the country.

02:53:04.000 It's only for certain special machines.

02:53:06.000 Here's the federal money, we're helping.

02:53:09.000 They have people begging for them because they're afraid they're going to miss out on the federal money.

02:53:13.000 And the excuse that is being used is the reason why counties have to upgrade.

02:53:18.000 Well, it's like taking money from the mafia.

02:53:21.000 I mean, it's always going to be loan shark.

02:53:24.000 But the good news is, though, Vicki, a bunch of states are saying no to those machines.

02:53:30.000 Well, they should.

02:53:31.000 I wish I could corn myself.

02:53:34.000 I wanted to go out and talk to some of the counties in Texas.

02:53:37.000 who still are using paper ballots hand-counted, which they do not have.

02:53:41.000 There's no mandate for them to change that system.

02:53:44.000 What their mandate is is for the disabled to have a private vote to do that without using electronic machines.

02:53:51.000 Ellen Tyson with Voters Unite came up with a prototype of a voting system for the disabled.

02:53:57.000 We've got to take a few calls.

02:53:59.000 We're almost out of time, Vicki.

02:54:00.000 I'm going to have to have you back up.

02:54:02.000 Steve in Kansas City.

02:54:03.000 Go ahead, Steve.

02:54:04.000 Yes, Miss Vicki, Mr. Jones, thank you for taking my call real quick.

02:54:08.000 Miss Vicki, what is your area code there?

02:54:12.000 Oh, it's 512.

02:54:14.000 512.

02:54:14.000 Thank you.

02:54:15.000 And we had a dinner party this weekend and that was brought up.

02:54:19.000 There was a judge and three business owners.

02:54:22.000 And for some reason that was brought up and they looked at me and every one of them hammered me.

02:54:29.000 Well, why can't, even if there is an electronic voting machine, so what?

02:54:36.000 They can do the same thing.

02:54:38.000 With paper ballots?

02:54:39.000 No, it centralizes the fraud and unifies the fraud.

02:54:44.000 You have to have an army of millions of people to steal a national election.

02:54:48.000 It can be done with only a few hundred people.

02:54:51.000 It's about centralization.

02:54:54.000 And Ms.

02:54:54.000 Vigie, I would really like to talk to you because I live in Kansas.

02:54:59.000 I would really like to talk to you personally.

02:55:01.000 We're going to do this, Steve.

02:55:04.000 Vicki will give out a number where you and others can get in touch with her.

02:55:09.000 Vicki, give us that number.

02:55:09.000 512-775-3737.

02:55:11.000 Paula in Missouri.

02:55:17.000 Paula, go ahead. 0.99

02:55:21.000 Hi Vicki and Alex.

02:55:23.000 Vicki, I wanted to ask you.

02:55:25.000 You were going to have that demonstration.

02:55:28.000 On the counting the ballots?

02:55:30.000 And is it going to be made available to others in the other states, in Alex's listening audience, so that they can go about and do this?

02:55:39.000 Well, yeah, but you have to set it up yourself!

02:55:41.000 Yeah, that's what I mean.

02:55:43.000 Well, I can provide information, and we will have a website up soon, but I would say that if you want to, if you've made a note of that phone number, when we have our website up, we can give you links The information that we're using.

02:55:58.000 This has been done twice before.

02:56:00.000 We're out of time.

02:56:01.000 We're out of time.

02:56:02.000 Vicki Karp, I want to thank you for coming on.

02:56:04.000 Paula, thanks for the call.

02:56:06.000 Vicki, we've got to have you back up soon. 0.64

02:56:07.000 Thanks, Alex, for all your support.

02:56:09.000 You bet.

02:56:10.000 Take care.

02:56:10.000 Oh, no.

02:56:11.000 Thank you for what you're doing.

02:56:12.000 Are you kidding?

02:56:12.000 We're all in this together.

02:56:14.000 Folks, I could talk forever about this.

02:56:17.000 What you do is you sit out front the real... Oh, I'm out of time.

02:56:21.000 I don't have time to get into it.

02:56:23.000 God bless you all.

Alex Jones Show - October 17, 2005

20051017_Mon_Alex

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