Alex Jones Show - Alex Jones Helps Rebuild Waco Church Clvie Doyle Interview

00:00:00.000 Good job, Alex.

00:00:17.000 Yes, I drove three nails. 0.90

00:00:20.000 Oh, yes. yes.

00:00:50.000 Yes, ma'am. ma'am.

00:01:20.000 Oh, Lord.

00:01:23.000 Somebody got me.

00:01:25.000 I stand around the house for the longest time.

00:01:31.000 I got to knock them off on somebody.

00:01:34.000 Some people used to come by.

00:01:37.000 Oh, so we had to get rid of those?

00:01:41.000 Well, I just drove up.

00:01:42.000 Oh, my mouth is breaking.

00:01:43.000 That's it.

00:01:43.000 I'm taking it off.

00:01:43.000 I'm going to have a real deal.

00:02:06.000 What do you mean unskilled labor?

00:02:07.000 I thought you were the cop.

00:02:09.000 Huh?

00:02:12.000 I'm the help, boss.

00:02:27.000 Thank you guys!

00:02:29.000 Thank you guys!

00:02:30.000 I appreciate it.

00:02:31.000 I appreciate it.

00:03:01.000 I appreciate it.

00:03:31.000 I appreciate it.

00:04:01.000 I appreciate it.

00:04:03.000 I appreciate it.

00:04:05.000 Come here.

00:04:07.000 I appreciate it.

00:05:17.000 We'll see you next time.

00:05:47.000 We'll see you next time.

00:06:17.000 We'll see you next time.

00:06:47.000 I wonder if somebody would have filled up the internet.

00:06:49.000 Chinese are now saying, "Well, you know, we think that the test is coming out, maybe you show fully automatic weapons." Well, I think I'm going to get to the point where you're going to get that. 1.00

00:06:58.000 Oh, we are fine.

00:07:00.000 This is how we do this stuff.

00:07:02.000 What do you think?

00:07:04.000 What do you think about today?

00:07:06.000 What do you think about today?

00:07:08.000 Yep.

00:07:10.000 I think that was a drought.

00:07:38.000 I'm going to put it out on the ground.

00:07:40.000 Do you know what are using Delta Force?

00:07:42.000 I don't know.

00:07:44.000 I'm going to admit it.

00:07:46.000 We're using Delta Force to ground up wrong.

00:07:48.000 Yeah, I remember that in Seattle.

00:07:50.000 Yeah, Delta Force is a wrecked.

00:07:52.000 I've got raw footage.

00:07:54.000 I'm going to put it in.

00:07:56.000 I'm going to put it in the ground.

00:07:58.000 They got more of that.

00:08:04.000 I got two of the bugs.

00:08:06.000 I'm going to put it in the ground.

00:10:05.000 It's resistant.

00:10:07.000 It's resistant.

00:10:09.000 It's coming now.

00:10:11.000 It's so scary because it's very real.

00:10:15.000 Very real.

00:10:17.000 I don't know the other I've wanted to make.

00:10:19.000 Check it out.

00:10:21.000 It's a plant right there on the satellite.

00:10:25.000 I know it's a little bit.

00:10:27.000 It's a little bit more than a little bit.

00:10:29.000 Uh, yeah.

00:10:31.000 You can see the no burn.

00:10:37.000 No burn.

00:10:39.000 Is that the end of the screen?

00:10:43.000 Yeah.

00:10:45.000 You can't...

00:10:47.000 You can put a towel in it and throw it in the fire for like minutes on end and it just charges.

00:10:53.000 It's burning.

00:10:55.000 It doesn't work that way.

00:10:59.000 It doesn't work that way.

00:11:01.000 And we also got our gallons in there, right?

00:11:03.000 We'll be in.

00:11:05.000 Yeah, that's burning here.

00:11:09.000 Thank you.

00:13:04.000 That's really good.

00:13:05.000 Don't try to avoid giving you a complete answer.

00:13:21.000 This is out.

00:13:23.000 Let's watch!

00:13:25.000 I brought the original copies!

00:13:30.000 This is the first weekend for it.

00:13:34.000 Yeah.

00:13:37.000 Hold on a second.

00:13:39.000 It's not up on InfoWars yet.

00:13:43.000 Mike! 0.69

00:13:44.000 It's not on InfoWars yet.

00:13:46.000 If you find somewhere like Rebuildthechurch.com Go to the branch of the Midian Trust Discussion Board Comprehensive thinking is a great part But the discussion board Has moved So it'll tell you where to go Mine's definitely true A little sarcastic You get the sharp T's But not too many It's not huge Very noticeable But it is noticeable And you know what the sarcastic means Defiance

00:14:16.000 A large lowercase letter Especially K Anywhere in the writing This high buckle K If a person resists Others authority Sinners from his head And they told what to do What the guys were going to be No Alex, you never resist authority.

00:14:31.000 Very, very talkative.

00:14:32.000 That's connected more than just to move their mouths.

00:14:34.000 Sometimes they don't talk just to hear their own voice.

00:14:36.000 Very strong T-bars, which is great.

00:14:39.000 High self-esteem.

00:14:40.000 Reveals confidence, ambition, the ability to plan ahead.

00:14:43.000 High goals, high personal expectations, and an overall good self-image.

00:14:46.000 This is the key to personal success and happiness.

00:14:48.000 Persistence.

00:14:51.000 Stokes that double back over, you had one T that did it.

00:14:53.000 An N toward the right, usually located in the T.

00:14:55.000 And the opposite person has a quality of not giving up when he's been confronted with temporary setbacks.

00:14:59.000 He will persist until he completes the task.

00:15:01.000 Self-conscious.

00:15:03.000 When the second hunt is hired and the first person has a fear of being ridiculed, he tends to worry what others might think when around strangers.

00:15:08.000 But I guess you're so confident that it doesn't matter.

00:15:13.000 But it may affect you.

00:15:14.000 Well, no, but that is true.

00:15:15.000 I'll have a bunch of fear and I'll just say, screw it.

00:15:17.000 I'm going over it.

00:15:18.000 Exactly.

00:15:19.000 Wow, well thanks, that's cool.

00:15:45.000 Oh, I like it.

00:15:46.000 All right.

00:15:46.000 Now I'm going to climb.

00:15:47.000 I like it.

00:15:47.000 It's been about seven years to kick it off.

00:15:51.000 Problem reaction solution.

00:15:52.000 Create a crisis.

00:15:54.000 Offer a solution.

00:15:55.000 What did they do?

00:15:57.000 The bomb.

00:15:58.000 Daddy.

00:15:59.000 How many buildings don't blow out?

00:16:01.000 The truck bomb and the truck bomb could have done out with fuel oil.

00:16:03.000 Oh, yeah, the building was blown out.

00:16:05.000 That's what I wanted to tell you.

00:16:06.000 The building was blown out.

00:16:08.000 The FBI confiscated all the surveillance cameras.

00:16:11.000 They confiscated the seismographs, but copies got out first.

00:16:13.000 Two separate explosions, a diversionary out front.

00:16:16.000 First small and the big ones inside.

00:16:18.000 The second explosion was after a chain of explosions.

00:16:21.000 Jane Graham ran the HUD on the fifth floor.

00:16:26.000 Jane Graham, I saw guys planning what she said were large sticks of gray butter.

00:16:31.000 That morning down on the, you know.

00:16:33.000 They bossed it.

00:16:35.000 They would take any old building.

00:16:36.000 They wanted to boss the whole thing, but it didn't work.

00:16:39.000 That's why they had to help people back and go, the unexplored bombs, the media, local media didn't know.

00:16:44.000 They weren't part of it.

00:16:45.000 They're removing unexplored variants of the security bombs right now.

00:16:48.000 I've got a video out.

00:16:51.000 America's Warped by Design in it.

00:16:54.000 We're taking the bombs out.

00:16:56.000 Give me a break.

00:16:57.000 Eligible.

00:16:58.000 We got a helicopter shooting.

00:17:00.000 The FBI had four-second TVs all out here hooked into that house, satellite in the back of Washington.

00:17:07.000 The dish back there in the back.

00:17:09.000 All four cameras were there.

00:17:11.000 They're going for an hour and a half.

00:17:13.000 Yeah.

00:17:14.000 They were doing it pretty funny.

00:17:17.000 Flint, while it was burning.

00:17:19.000 Flint, yeah.

00:17:21.000 Yeah, yeah.

00:17:24.000 Clinton had the head of China's nuclear weapons programs, top general, in the White House recording and laughing.

00:17:37.000 That's when you were in Iraq.

00:17:40.000 He was his dad on TV. And he'd just been in office a few months.

00:17:45.000 And you'd already had the World Trade Center.

00:17:47.000 That was in the October 28, 1993. New York Times and Salaam in the World Trade Center bombing.

00:17:55.000 Salam was an Egyptian, a former security force agent, over at work for the FBI.

00:18:01.000 As the informant said, "You gave me real explosives, you took that bomb, we're going in two days, get them now." We trapped him, they pulled him out, sent in that bomb.

00:18:14.000 That's what they do.

00:18:16.000 That's all they do.

00:18:17.000 And the New York Times are so arrogant, they just report it.

00:18:21.000 I can just babble, Mike.

00:18:22.000 You can tell them a story.

00:18:24.000 I was a little sick of telling them.

00:18:25.000 I was working at the same time in Garland.

00:18:43.000 I was working at the same time in the United States of Texas.

00:19:06.000 I don't get into all the speculation.

00:19:09.000 I mean, I was just curious.

00:19:09.000 I happen to hear of this guy, you know, that had supposedly seen David Koresh sitting in the apartment in the parking lot smoking pot.

00:19:17.000 He sounds curious.

00:19:19.000 Well, I figured it all set up.

00:19:24.000 I don't know if they'd be.

00:19:27.000 It wasn't the current president when you were in school, was it, Ed?

00:19:33.000 No, President's Day is a combination of Washington's Day and Lincoln's Day, and It has nothing whatsoever to do.

00:19:39.000 with that traitorous Bill Clinton who now occupies the White House.

00:19:44.000 You're doing a good job.

00:20:12.000 I am too.

00:20:19.000 You're an uncle too, right?

00:20:23.000 Yes, I am.

00:20:25.000 There's no church out here.

00:20:26.000 They've kept the money.

00:20:29.000 Is that right?

00:20:34.000 Yeah.

00:20:35.000 That's right.

00:20:37.000 Pretty funny.

00:20:38.000 Yeah.

00:20:39.000 This is not a church.

00:20:42.000 This is the money we have kept.

00:20:43.000 This is actually a drug lab.

00:20:48.000 I was wanting to see that, what she put up, but everybody don't want to download it.

00:20:53.000 They're afraid you've got a virus on it.

00:20:56.000 Wiley told me to delete it right away when you see that name.

00:21:02.000 It's hard to keep an eye on it in a while.

00:21:08.000 Where's your drug lab going to be?

00:21:11.000 Ask Clive.

00:21:12.000 Ask Clive.

00:21:16.000 You need to let me know what I need to bring.

00:21:17.000 We're painting next week and caulking more.

00:21:20.000 We're going to caulk everything.

00:21:22.000 We start one side as we caulk the other side.

00:21:26.000 Hey, where did they go?

00:21:30.000 Noah's Ark?

00:21:32.000 Is this the new Noah's Ark?

00:21:34.000 I think it's strapped down.

00:21:35.000 It kind of looks like the Noah's Ark.

00:21:36.000 You go up on there.

00:21:37.000 If you see somebody.

00:21:51.000 I was moving out of the place.

00:21:57.000 You got to show him all those badges.

00:21:59.000 In the modern media Rolodex, this is loving.

00:22:03.000 And Chawawa is vicious and right wing. 1.00

00:22:06.000 Yes.

00:22:06.000 Yeah, baby.

00:22:09.000 Yes, we cry.

00:22:10.000 Yeah, I heard you say that.

00:22:12.000 Yeah, what would be the motive for that?

00:22:15.000 You're asking me, Peter?

00:22:18.000 What Ed was making is...

00:22:23.000 You were saying, Clive, that the neighbor said it was a two-month...

00:22:28.000 They were saying he planned to be gone for two months.

00:22:31.000 The neighbor down over the hill said they came in, I think, the first day.

00:22:36.000 Well, see, he was there when all the helicopters came in and all that sort of stuff, and he heard all the shooting and everything.

00:22:41.000 And he said they parked down over the hill.

00:22:45.000 Bunch of ATF guys.

00:22:47.000 Love officers.

00:22:48.000 So he came out of his house.

00:22:49.000 He's got a big front yard, a big field, like us.

00:22:52.000 He's set back off the road.

00:22:53.000 So he walked all the way over the road.

00:22:55.000 As he walked toward them, they come stomping.

00:22:58.000 They come up out of the ground everywhere, sort of things surrounding him.

00:23:01.000 Figured he was a threat.

00:23:02.000 And he says, hey, my kids want, you know, he says, I'm wanting to get my kids out of the house.

00:23:07.000 Is it over?

00:23:08.000 Is it safe to go, you know, to town now or something?

00:23:12.000 He says, my kids are scared.

00:23:14.000 And they told him to go back to the house, pack his bags, and be prepared to stay gone for two months.

00:23:19.000 He said, hey, I got cattle, I got animals to feed.

00:23:22.000 So they made his whole family move out of the house.

00:23:24.000 Did they pay him in?

00:23:24.000 Pay at all?

00:23:26.000 They made his whole family move out of the house.

00:23:28.000 And he would have to come to the roadblock up the other end here every day.

00:23:33.000 And they would escort him with two ATF or FBI agents would escort him back to the house so he could feed his animals and then escort him away again.

00:23:40.000 Did they pay his motel bills?

00:23:42.000 Not that I know of.

00:23:44.000 Well, here's a question that Ed was asking, Clive.

00:23:51.000 And the question is, how could they know that it was going to be around two months, then they send the helicopters to shoot up the water supply, the water tanks, the blue water tanks, to shoot up David's room.

00:24:03.000 Do you think they meant the raid to be a so-called boxed raid, having helicopters attack, having them hit the front door?

00:24:11.000 Do you think the whole thing was planned?

00:24:12.000 I think it was planned all the way from the beginning.

00:24:15.000 They told us in court that they rehearsed this thing in Fort Hood back in December.

00:24:21.000 They rehearsed it, and they were supposed to have it down flat to where they could have 130 people on the floor in handcuffs to do, I think it was like two minutes flat.

00:24:31.000 But they didn't put you in handcuffs in two minutes flat.

00:24:33.000 They didn't get in.

00:24:34.000 That's my point.

00:24:36.000 They could, well, actually they did get in.

00:24:38.000 They got in up here.

00:24:39.000 Right.

00:24:40.000 This is your fiberglass ladder back here, right?

00:24:44.000 The thing is, why would they shoot up the water supply right as the bullets are going through the front door?

00:24:54.000 From the helicopters.

00:24:57.000 Have any way of resisting, I guess, and surviving any length of time?

00:25:00.000 Well, that's right, any length of time.

00:25:02.000 That's the point.

00:25:03.000 If they told the neighbor to prepare to be gone for two months, and they come in, and the first thing they do is shoot up the water supply, that's not because they're going to have a raid that day and take everybody to jail.

00:25:15.000 The thing is, they tell the public they were just trying to serve a legal warrant.

00:25:21.000 That they never brought with them.

00:25:22.000 Which, none of the guys that...

00:25:24.000 At least the ones they put on the witness stand, none of them had ever seen it.

00:25:28.000 They didn't have it with them.

00:25:29.000 If anybody had it at all, it was probably one of the guys on a helicopter, but nobody knew what they were supposed to be searching for.

00:25:35.000 Well, you've got a 100-man assault team.

00:25:37.000 The question is, why would they have helicopters firing from the back simultaneously as the BATF agents' officers near the door?

00:25:47.000 They claim their orders were to be a diversion.

00:25:49.000 That's what I was going to say to her.

00:25:51.000 Well, it sounds to me like they were trying to get you guys, that is the Davidians, to fire to start a firefight like they wanted a confrontation. 0.94

00:26:01.000 For the media.

00:26:02.000 Well, Catherine Madison and others who were upstairs have said, Mike, that they saw the helicopters firing.

00:26:08.000 Firing first.

00:26:09.000 Well, wait a minute.

00:26:10.000 I saw in a movie where Catherine Madison was in a front shooting machine gun. 0.99

00:26:13.000 Oh, made for a TV movie?

00:26:15.000 Yeah, must be true.

00:26:16.000 Must be true among us, made for a TV movie.

00:26:19.000 Well, here's the thing.

00:26:20.000 They claim we were shooting a.50 caliber machine gun at them on the first day, right?

00:26:24.000 Yeah.

00:26:25.000 I said, well, if we had that and it was working, we did have a.50 caliber.

00:26:29.000 It wasn't a machine gun.

00:26:30.000 Barrett semi-automatic.

00:26:31.000 We were told it wasn't working.

00:26:33.000 It wasn't used on February 28th.

00:26:35.000 I was told by several people in there.

00:26:38.000 But...

00:26:38.000 You know, they've stuck to their story that we fired this.50 caliber at them on the first day, then why would somebody be shooting at the tanks with P-Rifles if you got a.50 caliber?

00:26:50.000 And if we fired the.50 caliber at them on April 19th, produce the tanks with the big dings in the side of it or holes or whatever.

00:26:58.000 Well, if you guys were so bloodthirsty, how could the BATF, at 50 yards away, back away for several minutes with their hands up?

00:27:05.000 Right.

00:27:05.000 I mean, if we were a suicide cult and just wanted to go down in a blaze of glory and take as many people as we could with us, none of them would have walked off on February 28th.

00:27:14.000 We could have massacred them all and then just wait for the big showdown that came after us.

00:27:20.000 But there weren't even any bullet holes in their pickups or in their cattle trailers.

00:27:25.000 Well, there was.

00:27:27.000 According to the evidence they showed in court, the cattle truck that pulled up at the front door, you know, that was the second one, It had a bullet hole through the radiator, which when you put a dowel into it, it pointed directly up the road at the other cattle truck.

00:27:43.000 It didn't come from an angle.

00:27:46.000 Also, the driver jumped out and left the door open, and there's a bullet hole through the top of the open door and into the roof of the cab on the offside from the building, which means somebody over there was shooting from the houses or somebody.

00:28:03.000 You know, go berserk over there. 1.00

00:28:05.000 It wasn't shot from the building.

00:28:08.000 Right.

00:28:09.000 So...

00:28:09.000 Wait, are you saying that somebody could have been shooting their own agents?

00:28:12.000 Well, yeah, that's what he's saying.

00:28:14.000 He's saying that they got bullet holes in some of the vehicles, but a lot of them, or several of them at least...

00:28:21.000 Not bullet holes that we could have shot.

00:28:23.000 They're on the far side, away from the building.

00:28:25.000 Well, that's been brought forward in several different films and a lot of the evidence.

00:28:29.000 Even the heavily edited VATF footage shows one of their own officers throwing in some type of grenade, whether it's flashbang or phosphorus or explosive.

00:28:39.000 It probably wouldn't be phosphorus.

00:28:41.000 Yeah.

00:28:41.000 It probably wouldn't have been phosphorus or you would have a fire, but let's say either a flash or a shrapnel grenade.

00:28:50.000 A concussion grenade.

00:28:51.000 They're throwing these in here, and he's shooting into the room.

00:28:54.000 That's what it appears like.

00:28:56.000 They deny that, but, you know.

00:28:58.000 Well, you know three of those guys have been Clinton bodyguards.

00:29:01.000 No, all four of them were.

00:29:02.000 Three of them were Arkansas State Troopers, and the other one was Secret Service or something that was on the campaign trail.

00:29:08.000 Three that go into that room came out alive.

00:29:11.000 One was wounded by his own guy.

00:29:14.000 We didn't shoot any of the guys on the front side of the chapel.

00:29:18.000 There were two guys that tried to get in this side that ended up dead.

00:29:21.000 There's one, I think, that was over hiding behind a vault somewhere over in the field.

00:29:25.000 He ended up dead, and one guy at the front door ended up dead.

00:29:29.000 Yeah.

00:29:30.000 But none of those three that go in, you know, Linda Thompson said all three of them are dead.

00:29:35.000 Yeah, she's wrong.

00:29:36.000 It wasn't those three.

00:29:37.000 According to the testimony in the trial, all three of them end up getting out of that room.

00:29:42.000 The only damage, any of them, including the guy that looks like he gets shot in the head, he kind of rolls over and the bullets come through the wall.

00:29:48.000 He's not wounded at all.

00:29:50.000 That's his Kevlar helmet.

00:29:51.000 Well, he's just ducking, you know, reflex action.

00:29:55.000 He just rolls over, and he jumps up, slides down the ladder, and messes his ankle up when he hits the ground.

00:30:03.000 That's the only injury he had.

00:30:04.000 So he was just rolling around in the fetal position like a baby, basically.

00:30:08.000 Yeah, he was.

00:30:11.000 No, there was a guy on this side.

00:30:13.000 Like a baby.

00:30:14.000 There was a guy that went over the hump.

00:30:16.000 See, there were two ladders.

00:30:17.000 Everybody concentrates on the guys that go up the right-hand side because they're trying to get in that window and they're jerking on the curtain.

00:30:22.000 You don't see what the other team did when they went over the hump.

00:30:25.000 What did they do?

00:30:25.000 They were trying to get in the window on this side.

00:30:27.000 The other ones have got shot up.

00:30:29.000 We don't know whether, you know...

00:30:31.000 Could have been the sniper teams in the house.

00:30:33.000 No, it could have been the helicopters rolling up.

00:30:35.000 They're out here shooting up at David's room.

00:30:38.000 You know, and that's where they're trying to get into what they thought was David's room.

00:30:42.000 Two of these guys, I think two of them end up dead, one of them end up wounded, and he end up rolling off the roof, from what I understand.

00:30:49.000 That's the one they come around and pick up out of the courtyard here.

00:30:52.000 Where was Catherine's room at?

00:30:54.000 She was on the back towards the...

00:30:56.000 So this is David's room, and they were shooting this away, and Catherine was looking back...

00:31:00.000 They were coming in across, you know...

00:31:04.000 When I saw them anyway, they were coming up near the swimming pool, the helicopter.

00:31:09.000 She said she saw them shooting into this part of the building.

00:31:13.000 What did you think when you saw the helicopter?

00:31:17.000 What was your first reaction?

00:31:19.000 The only time I saw the helicopter in the initial raid was as I was going down the hall, which was out toward the driveway there, and I could see right through into the cafeteria and there was a door out.

00:31:31.000 You know, facing the swimming pool.

00:31:33.000 As I went by, I could see this helicopter turning away.

00:31:37.000 He was just in the process of turning away and doing a U-turn sort of thing.

00:31:42.000 And when we went to trial in San Antonio, they got up and said, oh, they didn't get any closer than, I forget how many hundred meters or something.

00:31:49.000 I said, I'm no judge of this.

00:31:51.000 I'm not a good judge.

00:31:52.000 I said, how far would like 500 meters or whatever?

00:31:55.000 I said, oh, about a football field or something like that.

00:31:57.000 I said, well, that thing was right out here over this wave.

00:32:00.000 I said, that seems to be a lot closer than 500 meters.

00:32:03.000 Do you think the jury believed it?

00:32:05.000 I don't know what the jury...

00:32:06.000 They found you not guilty.

00:32:08.000 Well, I don't think the jury were...

00:32:12.000 But they're still...

00:32:13.000 Filled in enough.

00:32:14.000 Yeah.

00:32:14.000 Even though they were found not guilty.

00:32:16.000 That's the new American way.

00:32:17.000 Seven or nine, I can't remember.

00:32:19.000 Well, they were nine.

00:32:19.000 We got rid of those juries, too, in federal trials.

00:32:22.000 Now we just have judges.

00:32:23.000 Go ahead, Clark.

00:32:24.000 I guess...

00:32:25.000 Don't be an extremist, please, Jerry.

00:32:30.000 I forget what I was going to say.

00:32:32.000 About the distance in the jury?

00:32:35.000 I was going to say, I don't know on each individual point that came out that the jury was qualified to know whether they were being lied to or not initially.

00:32:46.000 But I know a lot of them are pretty upset.

00:32:50.000 After they find out all the skullduggery that went on in the court, all the information that's come out since, Sarah Bain has spoken out plenty of times.

00:33:00.000 Very upset.

00:33:01.000 I think it was the second memorial she came up and she brought several of the other jury people with it.

00:33:11.000 Even that jury was a bit of a farce.

00:33:16.000 There were several people that shouldn't have been on that jury.

00:33:22.000 Well, first of all, they whittled down, what was it, 3,000?

00:33:30.000 Jury whittled down to 80 people.

00:33:31.000 So then they bring them out one by one in question.

00:33:34.000 The judge would ask each one, I don't want you to tell me what religion you are, he says, but would you consider yourself mainstream?

00:33:41.000 In other words, we don't want any Jehovah's Witnesses, Hare Krishna's, you know what I'm saying? 1.00

00:33:45.000 They weren't going to let anybody that might be sympathetic to a small group.

00:33:48.000 So he said, do you consider yourself mainstream religion?

00:33:53.000 And so then they had this one young girl that came up, and she asked to be dismissed.

00:33:59.000 This is what she reads, and she said, well, I just had a baby.

00:34:03.000 I'm breastfeeding and all nice.

00:34:05.000 Well, we're only going to be, you know, you're only going to be on the jury from 9 until about 4. He says, you can squeeze the milk out, put it in a bottle and have a babysitter feed the baby during the day.

00:34:16.000 He says, you'll be home by 5 or 5.30.

00:34:19.000 You can feed it at night.

00:34:21.000 And he made a stay on the jury.

00:34:22.000 Well, that was...

00:34:23.000 You might say, fine, up to a point.

00:34:25.000 Clive, he hurt the children?

00:34:26.000 Up to a point.

00:34:27.000 They love the children.

00:34:28.000 He got away with that during the trial.

00:34:30.000 But when you sequester a jury to make a major decision, they don't want to be locked up for days or weeks.

00:34:35.000 You know, they're going to rush to the decision.

00:34:37.000 And another girl was going to night school.

00:34:38.000 He pulled the same deal on her.

00:34:40.000 Well, you're not going to be here at night.

00:34:42.000 You can still be on the jury, you know.

00:34:44.000 And then when the trial...

00:34:46.000 You'll have plenty of time to study.

00:34:48.000 Real early in the trial.

00:34:52.000 A note was apparently handed to the judge, came from the jury.

00:34:57.000 People on the jury were letting the judge know that the guy that was on the jury had already made his mind up before he heard anything, that we were guilty.

00:35:10.000 And so they brought this to the judge.

00:35:11.000 Instead of dismissing him and saying, you can't be on the jury with that kind of attitude, they just kind of gave him a slap on the wrist and said, well, do you promise not?

00:35:20.000 Think like that.

00:35:21.000 Say that again?

00:35:22.000 Something like that.

00:35:24.000 Okay, judge.

00:35:25.000 And they left him on.

00:35:26.000 I mean, he's prejudiced.

00:35:28.000 So you're telling me that...

00:35:30.000 So you've got three people right there that got a problem.

00:35:32.000 That's in the court record that your lawyers had a motion to get this guy out of there?

00:35:36.000 No, I don't know that they filed a motion.

00:35:38.000 Tell us the story.

00:35:39.000 This is important on the record.

00:35:40.000 I'm just saying that somebody on the jury sent a note to the judge, apparently.

00:35:47.000 That one of the jury people had already made statements right at the beginning that he felt they were guilty and it hadn't even started.

00:35:53.000 You know what I'm saying?

00:35:55.000 He'd let them know his feelings prior to hearing all the evidence.

00:35:58.000 So they informed the judge of this.

00:36:00.000 But instead of kicking the guy off the jury and kicking someone else, you know, putting one of the ultimates in his place or something, they kept him on.

00:36:08.000 Just with a kind of a warning, you know.

00:36:10.000 You can't be saying that.

00:36:11.000 You know, don't let...

00:36:14.000 You're not supposed to have opinions without listening and you're supposed to be unbiased.

00:36:19.000 You're not going to do this again.

00:36:21.000 That sort of thing, you know.

00:36:22.000 Oh yeah, okay, Judge.

00:36:23.000 That was it.

00:36:24.000 Now, what exactly did the jury rule?

00:36:26.000 Not guilty on all the murder charges, correct, but that there was firearms violations?

00:36:31.000 From what I understand, and this kind of stinks in a way, our lawyers went to the prosecuting lawyers at some point during the series.

00:36:39.000 They never informed us.

00:36:40.000 It was something that they discussed with us.

00:36:42.000 They went and they said...

00:36:45.000 They said to the prosecutors, we feel that it's only fair that you let us, at some point, write in self-defense into the charges.

00:36:57.000 And from what I understand, the prosecuting attorney says, well, we'll let you write self-defense if you let us write in voluntary manslaughter.

00:37:08.000 So they made a deal.

00:37:11.000 Without consulting you.

00:37:12.000 Yeah, so when it came down...

00:37:14.000 No, that's an important point.

00:37:15.000 Yeah, we were not asked, were we willing to try to deal, or would we, you know...

00:37:21.000 And that's not really valid, then.

00:37:23.000 Your attorney has to get your plea.

00:37:25.000 Well, it should.

00:37:26.000 But anyway, the thing is, when it came down to separating the jury, from what I understand, the judge gave the jury instructions on how to vote, you know.

00:37:40.000 And on the third count, which is apparently where they...

00:37:43.000 The third count was having a weapon during the commission of violent crime.

00:37:47.000 You know, going into the trial, we were told that was a five to ten year sentence if you were found guilty.

00:37:53.000 Somewhere along the way, when they made this deal, they put all this extra wording into the third charge.

00:38:00.000 See?

00:38:02.000 And so...

00:38:03.000 When the jury is separated to go make the decision, the judge gives them instructions on how to vote.

00:38:07.000 And I think they said there was like 90 pages of instructions on how to vote on the third count.

00:38:13.000 Some fantastic number of pages anyway.

00:38:16.000 And, you know, just bamboozled them to even wade through it, let alone understand what they were getting into.

00:38:24.000 So they came up with not guilty on conspiracy to murder, which was the first charge.

00:38:31.000 Not guilty for everybody on aiding and abetting the murder of federal agents.

00:38:36.000 But on the weapons trial, because of testimony, some of it false, some of it may be true.

00:38:42.000 Some of them, you know, had, you know, not evidence necessarily, but testimony that they had a gun.

00:38:51.000 Like Livingston, for instance.

00:38:53.000 You get three ATF agents get up and say, who's the guy that shot me?

00:38:57.000 Or shot my friend, you know.

00:39:00.000 Well...

00:39:00.000 In their initial reports on February 28th or afterwards when they're talking to the Texas Rangers, one guy says, well, we got out of the first truck, we ran around the north end of the building, and we just got around the corner.

00:39:16.000 Here's three guys standing in the backyard, two white guys and a black guy.

00:39:21.000 And the black guy was huge.

00:39:23.000 And one guy says, when I first saw him, I thought they were our guys because they had black on and masks.

00:39:30.000 Oh, that's Delta Force.

00:39:31.000 Goggles, you know.

00:39:33.000 He says, I thought they were agar.

00:39:34.000 The next thing, they open fire, that's point blank.

00:39:37.000 So one guy gets kind of wet.

00:39:38.000 He's got a vest on, so, you know, he just gets bruised from the ones that hit the vest.

00:39:43.000 But I think he got one in the neck or ricocheted off his neck or something.

00:39:47.000 So he's got a few wet.

00:39:48.000 He rolls over into a ditch over here.

00:39:50.000 So when the other two guys jump behind the tractor and they're hiding out, they don't get shot.

00:39:54.000 So one guy said, you know, he thought they were their guys.

00:39:59.000 He says, the black guy was huge.

00:40:02.000 Another guy says, yeah, the black guy was about 5'10".

00:40:07.000 You know, and none of them saying, well, we could recognize any of them because they've got goggles and stuff on.

00:40:11.000 So they said.

00:40:12.000 Did you have goggles and masks?

00:40:15.000 I never saw any of our guys with goggles, but, you know, I couldn't say.

00:40:19.000 Black uniforms?

00:40:20.000 Any black uniforms?

00:40:20.000 There were people with black pants or maybe a black t-shirt or something.

00:40:24.000 We didn't have a uniform, per se.

00:40:25.000 Black ski masks?

00:40:27.000 No, not black ski masks.

00:40:29.000 I mean, you didn't have their type of wear.

00:40:32.000 No.

00:40:32.000 Oh, okay.

00:40:33.000 So anyway, what I've said all along, I said, okay, what they do is nobody can identify who these people are until somewhere during the siege, May, not May, March the 15th or something, you know, Livingston, David sends Livingston out with a message to the FBI. The next thing we know, it's in the press, Livingston's the guy that shot this ATF agent.

00:41:03.000 Livingston's a little bitty guy.

00:41:05.000 Either shorter than me or no higher.

00:41:07.000 So I said, okay, they've got a guinea pig now.

00:41:11.000 The only black guy that comes out of here alive is Livingston.

00:41:15.000 So he's got to be the black guy that does the shooting, you know, even though he's small. 0.99

00:41:19.000 Doesn't fit the description.

00:41:21.000 So then you got...

00:41:22.000 I said...

00:41:23.000 Well, how come they never tried to pin the two white guys? 0.57

00:41:26.000 They never identified anybody as being the white guys.

00:41:30.000 But they pick on Livingston to be the black guy, you know?

00:41:33.000 And so there was Brad Branch and myself sitting there in the courtroom.

00:41:36.000 We said to our boys, we want you to put us on a witness stand so we can testify that Brad Branch wasn't out.

00:41:42.000 I mean, Livingston wasn't out in the backyard.

00:41:45.000 We saw him somewhere else in the building.

00:41:47.000 We can vouch for that.

00:41:48.000 He wasn't that Tudor.

00:41:51.000 The judge wouldn't allow.

00:41:52.000 He says we were co-defendants, therefore we couldn't testify on his behalf.

00:41:57.000 And what's more, even if we did, it'd be impartial.

00:42:00.000 I mean, it'd be partial.

00:42:02.000 It'd be self-serving.

00:42:03.000 Well, I always thought you could put anybody you wanted to on the stand.

00:42:05.000 So anyway, so then our lawyers filed a motion to separate Livingston from the rest of the trial, you know, have a separate trial, and then we could testify.

00:42:14.000 And that was denied, as were most of the things we had.

00:42:17.000 Let me stop you for just a second, Clive.

00:42:19.000 On this issue of the counts, you're saying there's three counts.

00:42:23.000 There were several counts beyond that, but everybody had the first three.

00:42:28.000 Some had extra.

00:42:29.000 Okay.

00:42:29.000 And the three counts again are what?

00:42:32.000 Like Paul.

00:42:33.000 Paul wasn't even there.

00:42:34.000 So he's got some slightly different counts because of his names on the receipt for some guns.

00:42:41.000 Legal guns.

00:42:42.000 He bought them legally and everything.

00:42:44.000 He had nothing to do with any altering or anything that they were trying to pin on us.

00:42:51.000 Okay, the question is this, a side question.

00:43:11.000 During the Senate hearings, we saw them hold up a pristine Mach 90, a semi-automatic version of a Russian.

00:43:19.000 Field weapon.

00:43:21.000 We saw them hold this up and say, this came out of a fire.

00:43:25.000 This is illegal.

00:43:26.000 Now, there's this huge fire.

00:43:28.000 Well, one of the guns that they held up, they claimed they got out of Mike Schroeder's van, which was out the front.

00:43:35.000 I can't say one way or the other whether they did or they didn't.

00:43:38.000 That's what they claimed.

00:43:39.000 But that was a legal semi-automatic rifle.

00:43:43.000 I don't know.

00:43:48.000 They had a whole table of unburned guns.

00:43:53.000 So they found you not guilty?

00:44:03.000 On the murder.

00:44:03.000 They found everybody not guilty on conspiracy, and they found everybody not guilty of murder.

00:44:08.000 What the jury did, because of the various testimony that was given, like I said, whether it was true or false, the fact that we didn't put a defense on left that testimony standing.

00:44:21.000 And so they said, well, we've got people saying, well, so-and-so had a gun, or this guy saying, I had a gun.

00:44:29.000 And so they came up with guilty on the gun charge.

00:44:32.000 They went through the other charges, either guilty or not guilty, depending on what they were.

00:44:36.000 So, guilty in having a gun in a crime when you were found not guilty of the main crime?

00:44:43.000 Right after the jury uttered their verdict, the judge dismisses it.

00:44:46.000 They're allowed to go.

00:44:48.000 Both sides, all the lawyers from both sides, run up to the bench and say, Judge, how can you have people guilty of having a weapon during the commission of a crime if they're found not guilty of a crime?

00:44:58.000 He says, yeah, you're right, the jury messed up, you know, and I've already dismissed them, and, you know, if I had to find them all again and bring them back, I'd have to instruct them they made a mistake, and all they could do if they were going to change it at all would be to say not guilty, so I'll just scrap the third count.

00:45:15.000 But then by Monday...

00:45:16.000 That was the end of the argument, so you could...

00:45:18.000 Yeah, back them off, you know.

00:45:20.000 So then on the Monday...

00:45:22.000 The feds had already filed a reinstatement of a third count, and the judge turned around and changed his mind, and on the strength of that, I think in June or July, when he came down to the sentencing, he gives them 10 years plus 30. So they were guilty of conspiracy, guilty of murder, guilty of having automatic weapons, which was never proved.

00:45:43.000 Nobody was...

00:45:44.000 So they're found not guilty, but he says they're guilty.

00:45:47.000 Sure.

00:45:48.000 And that's how it stands, even in the press.

00:45:50.000 I don't even deny that.

00:45:51.000 It's so asinine.

00:45:53.000 They appealed that.

00:45:54.000 Well, the stupid lawyers didn't appeal their convictions, which I think they should have.

00:46:02.000 What they appealed was their sentencing.

00:46:04.000 Maybe they weren't stupid, Bob.

00:46:05.000 Maybe the lawyers weren't stupid.

00:46:06.000 You know what I mean.

00:46:07.000 But they only appealed the sentencing.

00:46:11.000 And so when it went to the Fifth Circuit in Louisiana, and I read the report, they had three different...

00:46:17.000 Fifth Circuit judges that reviewed the case.

00:46:20.000 You can't present any new evidence in an appeal.

00:46:23.000 All you can present is whether you feel the trial you had was handled properly.

00:46:29.000 You know, basically, that's what you're appealing, is that it wasn't conducted right.

00:46:33.000 So what they reviewed, what they looked at and decided was, well, here's got all this evidence.

00:46:40.000 We've reviewed the evidence.

00:46:41.000 We've reviewed all the testimony.

00:46:43.000 And since you guys didn't put on a defense, therefore...

00:46:47.000 We have to go with the evidence.

00:46:48.000 And the jury found on the weight of evidence that you were guilty.

00:46:52.000 And now it's going to the Supreme Court.

00:46:54.000 What they suggested was that the judge re-sentenced them.

00:46:57.000 In other words, to me, that means the sentence that he gave was wrong.

00:47:02.000 Something wrong with it.

00:47:03.000 Overbearing, too much, whatever.

00:47:05.000 So they tell him to re-sentence.

00:47:06.000 But they put it back to Smith.

00:47:08.000 They don't re-sentence him themselves.

00:47:09.000 They put it back on Smith and say, well, it's up to your discretion.

00:47:12.000 And he gets in the same amount of time.

00:47:14.000 Here's the question.

00:47:18.000 We see this happen, Clive.

00:47:21.000 We see them do this.

00:47:24.000 It's going to the Supreme Court now.

00:47:26.000 What do you think the Supreme Court's going to do?

00:47:28.000 Well, I'm hoping they'll let them out.

00:47:30.000 You know, if they'd have got, let's say they'd have got the gun charge, if it would have held up at all, and it was a five to ten year sentence.

00:47:38.000 These guys have done seven years already.

00:47:40.000 If you're in federal prison, you're supposed to be out of...

00:47:43.000 Unless you get no good time at all, if the judge refuses to let you out on good time, normally you can do 80%.

00:47:51.000 In other words, in eight years, they would have been out.

00:47:53.000 The way he's given them 40 years, these bodies aren't coming out under normal circumstances.

00:48:00.000 They're going to die in jail.

00:48:03.000 They'd be old men. 0.99

00:48:05.000 But again, back to that same point you've made.

00:48:08.000 How have you found not guilty of conspiracy to commit murder, not guilty of murder, and then the third count is...

00:48:16.000 Having a weapon during the commission of a crime.

00:48:18.000 Having a weapon during the commission of a crime.

00:48:20.000 If you're found not guilty of the crimes...

00:48:21.000 Technically, that should have been not guilty on the weapons charge.

00:48:24.000 And the weapons charge was not that the weapons were illegal, but that they were using the commission of a crime.

00:48:28.000 It doesn't say you had to use them.

00:48:31.000 They just had a weapon during the commission of a crime.

00:48:33.000 But, like I said...

00:48:35.000 Like armed robbery.

00:48:36.000 It doesn't matter whether you used them or you did.

00:48:39.000 So that's like saying you're armed at your house.

00:48:41.000 Graham Craddock never, you know, he admitted to him that he had a weapon.

00:48:45.000 But he never used them the whole time.

00:48:47.000 Well, but I mean, again, just to boil it down for people that are watching this, it would do air it live.

00:48:54.000 They're sitting there saying that you're not guilty.

00:48:59.000 But then they're still saying that you're guilty of having a weapon during the commission of a crime.

00:49:03.000 They would try.

00:49:06.000 Look at the evidence or what they considered the testimony that was presented.

00:49:10.000 See what I'm saying?

00:49:11.000 And their lawyers didn't really put on a defense.

00:49:14.000 But that's ridiculous.

00:49:15.000 Sure, it's ridiculous.

00:49:16.000 Who are your lawyers in all of this?

00:49:19.000 My lawyer was Dan Caldwell out of Houston.

00:49:22.000 What do you think of Dan?

00:49:24.000 Good lawyer, but he told me right off the bat he wasn't there to defend David.

00:49:30.000 He wasn't there to defend the whole group.

00:49:32.000 He was there as my defense.

00:49:34.000 He got me off.

00:49:35.000 Who was the so-called lead attorney?

00:49:37.000 Did the judge appoint a lead attorney?

00:49:39.000 Lead counsel?

00:49:41.000 Probably if anybody had seniority or leadership, it would have been Mike DeGaron.

00:49:49.000 Do you think the defense was compromised?

00:49:55.000 I think they were compromised by the fact that the judge wouldn't allow any money to bring in expert witnesses.

00:50:03.000 What do you mean he wouldn't allow any money?

00:50:06.000 He demanded that we all wear suits, suits and ties.

00:50:09.000 He wouldn't even give us any money to buy a suit and tie.

00:50:11.000 I didn't have any clothes.

00:50:13.000 All my clothes that were here were burned up and the ones I was wearing when I came out, they cut off with scissors.

00:50:17.000 Did he hold you in contempt for not wearing a suit?

00:50:20.000 No.

00:50:20.000 I did wear a suit, but he wouldn't.

00:50:22.000 You know, our lawyers requested that there would be money allotted for us to get experts for defense.

00:50:30.000 For bringing in, you know, a different situation.

00:50:33.000 And he refused all that.

00:50:34.000 How much did the government spend?

00:50:36.000 Millions, probably.

00:50:38.000 They brought every little mom-and-pop gun dealer from all over the United States that had anything to do with it. 1.00

00:50:46.000 Whether they sold us a book or whether they sold a gun or what.

00:50:49.000 They brought them all down to testify.

00:50:50.000 As if that's something dirty to sell guns at gun shows.

00:50:53.000 I was surprised.

00:50:54.000 I thought gun dealers were kind of like, you know, militia with camos and gun belts hanging all over them at a gun show.

00:51:00.000 So then I'm thinking, oh, you know, have all these gun dealers.

00:51:04.000 But when they came in, they had little grandmas and grandpas trying to put their kids through college or something.

00:51:08.000 What is it like, Clive, what is it like to have Judge Walter Smith engage in the criminal actions that I think are cleared in?

00:51:18.000 At least clear to me, Alex Jones, and I'll put that on the record.

00:51:21.000 To see the Judge Walter Smith engage in this criminal activity and this obstruction of justice in this huge railroad.

00:51:26.000 Now, Clive...

00:51:27.000 To have him refusing to recuse himself in the civil case where you're trying to take action, get back your good name, you lost your daughter, you lost your friends.

00:51:36.000 After all of this, he will not recuse himself.

00:51:40.000 I remember seven months ago when he was all acting like he was going to be Mr. Goody Two-Shoes.

00:51:45.000 You said on my radio program, and I agreed that...

00:51:48.000 You think it's the same old fraud all over again, just more acting?

00:51:50.000 I think it's more of the cover-up.

00:51:51.000 He's still playing the same role he played seven years ago or six years ago.

00:51:56.000 So what do you think of Judge Walter Smith?

00:51:59.000 I don't think much of Judge Walter Smith, period.

00:52:01.000 But what I think, what I can't understand is how the media or the courts or whoever has any authority in this country can look at the evidence of this man's performance, both in the trial and since, and say that this guy is unbiased.

00:52:19.000 I don't see how anybody, including the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals, can say, well, this guy is not a biased judge.

00:52:26.000 How can they call former Senator John Danforth an independent counselor, an independent investigator, when he's appointed by Janet Reno, the attorney general, to investigate Janet Reno, the attorney general?

00:52:38.000 Well, I think they can call them whatever they like in this country because they tend to screw the English language up pretty good.

00:52:43.000 They take the meaning away from words and...

00:52:47.000 And, you know, things don't have the same value as they used to when we were in school.

00:52:52.000 Would you say to people out there they better watch the words and better see what's...

00:52:55.000 Well, I'm saying, you know, there's a lot of catchphrases, a lot of double talk, there's a lot of deception and covering up, and I don't know what the real meaning of the word independent is in their mind, but I know what it means to me, and I don't know whether he fits the bill.

00:53:11.000 Let's put it down.

00:53:12.000 Cloud Doyle, were you guys operating a speed lab out here?

00:53:15.000 No, we weren't.

00:53:16.000 I've been told...

00:53:17.000 We were totally against drugs.

00:53:19.000 Well, I've been told by the Surviving Marriage Opinions like yourself, drugs were...

00:53:22.000 David would have somebody thrown out of here if they were doing drugs.

00:53:25.000 People that had done drugs or having a problem, whether it was drinking, smoking, or whatever, that wanted to come here and make a new start, were invited to come.

00:53:36.000 But if the temptation got so great that they couldn't resist, they were asked to leave.

00:53:41.000 So drugs were not allowed out here?

00:53:43.000 No.

00:53:44.000 And what was...

00:53:46.000 What had gone on prior to our, you might say, being in charge here was way back in the 80s, mid-80s.

00:53:58.000 There was a lab, George Roden had invited some former prisoners to come out here and gave them pretty well free reign to do what they liked.

00:54:11.000 Pornography ring and a drug lab and stuff, from what I understand.

00:54:15.000 When David came here, when we came back and got our property back in 1988, some of this stuff was found, which we handed over to the Sheriff's Department.

00:54:26.000 So it was pretty clear, at least with the locals, that you guys were anti-drug.

00:54:31.000 They all knew our position.

00:54:32.000 We had a good rapport with the Sheriff's Department.

00:54:35.000 They used to come out here and fish.

00:54:36.000 They'd come out here and trade carpets.

00:54:39.000 Use the shooting range.

00:54:41.000 I don't know about the sheriff's department doing that, but we didn't have a shooting range.

00:54:44.000 We had a heap of dirt out there, which people would stick a tin can on us and blocks of wood, you know, and maybe try out shooting a little bit, but we didn't have a shooting range.

00:54:54.000 We didn't have military training camp and all that kind of stuff that you hear.

00:54:58.000 Well, I mean, for me, shooting range is a term in the backyard.

00:55:01.000 Well, what I said, we didn't have targets.

00:55:03.000 We didn't have, you know, measured distances or anything.

00:55:07.000 And most people...

00:55:08.000 Clive, why do you think the government attacked you guys?

00:55:11.000 Clive, why do you think the government...

00:55:13.000 I think there's a lot of...

00:55:13.000 I'm sorry.

00:55:14.000 I'm sorry.

00:55:14.000 I think there's a lot of reasons...

00:55:15.000 I'm going to start over again.

00:55:16.000 Go ahead.

00:55:17.000 I believe the attack was on various levels.

00:55:22.000 I think that the ATF had an agenda.

00:55:24.000 I think that the government...

00:55:26.000 This government wants to take over and take away the freedoms of everybody.

00:55:30.000 It had an agenda.

00:55:31.000 And this was part of their plan.

00:55:33.000 But, you know, you hear a lot of stories about what was going on in the ATF. Sexual discrimination within the department, the stories of them being dissolved or reabsorbed into another agency.

00:55:47.000 You've heard all those stories.

00:55:49.000 Did you ever hear about their Klan meeting when they got caught?

00:55:51.000 From our point of view, I believe that, like the Bible says, there's a devil out there and the devil wants to do away with anybody that's trying to improve their lifestyle to do better.

00:56:07.000 You start studying the Bible, you're already under suspicion and suspect, and the devil wants to get rid of those kind of people. 0.99

00:56:14.000 And unfortunately, there are people that lend themselves to bringing that about.

00:56:19.000 You know, when it says the devil goes to make a war against the saints, it could be supernatural, but I think it's done through human beings that allow themselves to be directed in that line.

00:56:32.000 So puppets.

00:56:35.000 Well, thanks, Clark.

00:56:36.000 Okay, appreciate it.

00:56:38.000 Clive, I was going to ask you a question.

00:56:41.000 You didn't get a chance.

00:56:42.000 No, I know.

00:56:43.000 Alex turned us into an interview.

00:56:46.000 Well, he's over here talking about it.

00:56:48.000 Yeah, no, no.

00:56:49.000 See, now he's an interview mode.

00:56:50.000 Real serious.

00:56:51.000 Clive, relax if you wear a suit.

00:56:53.000 Oh, you don't have to be out here, Clive.

00:56:56.000 No, it was just a question about on that day one, the first day when they came in shooting.

00:57:02.000 And you had that.

00:57:05.000 A semi-automatic 50-caliber that you said wasn't working.

00:57:10.000 But were there any evidence that the feds were shooting 50-caliber rounds?

00:57:17.000 I mean, did you see 50-caliber holes in the building at all?

00:57:21.000 Because Catherine at one point said when she went out on March 2nd or whatever, there was some kind of like a huge hole in the front door.

00:57:28.000 There was some holes in the front door, but I mean...

00:57:31.000 They had shotguns.

00:57:33.000 They had MP5s or whatever.

00:57:36.000 They had handguns.

00:57:37.000 I don't know what all they were shooting, per se.

00:57:40.000 I know what they claimed they had, whether that's truthful or not.

00:57:43.000 We know there were snipers across the road.

00:57:45.000 What they were shooting, we don't know.

00:57:48.000 But after the initial raid and the adrenaline kind of calmed down and everything, and we're beginning to hear on the radio.

00:57:59.000 The stories that they're putting out, you know, to the media, like, oh, they were shooting all kinds of stuff, 50 caliber.

00:58:05.000 I knew we had a 50 caliber.

00:58:07.000 David had showed it one night, you know, one of the meetings.

00:58:11.000 And so I went to a couple of guys.

00:58:13.000 I think I asked, let's see, a couple of guys that were upstairs where the 50 caliber was supposed to be.

00:58:21.000 I said, so what's all these stories about us firing the 50 caliber at them?

00:58:25.000 One guy says, 50 caliber was never used.

00:58:28.000 He said it was sitting over in the corner or something.

00:58:31.000 Never got used.

00:58:32.000 I asked somebody else about it and they said a.50 caliber couldn't have been used because it doesn't work.

00:58:38.000 That was two different people telling me that.

00:58:41.000 And so I accepted them.

00:58:43.000 I got more reason to believe our guys than I do in these lives, you know.

00:58:47.000 So, like I said, if we had it, and if it was automatic, and if we were shooting at them on the first day, then on the last day they got all these tanks busting through into the building.

00:59:01.000 Why didn't we use it on them then?

00:59:03.000 Right.

00:59:03.000 And if we were shooting, which they claimed we were on April 19th, how come they don't play these bug tapes they're supposed to have?

00:59:11.000 Yeah.

00:59:11.000 They got all these voices from all over the building.

00:59:13.000 They've only got one bug tape, they said, that works, but they're supposedly picking voices up from upstairs, downstairs, in the foyer, all over the place.

00:59:21.000 Yeah, but they already, I think it was about three or four weeks ago they already said it.

00:59:25.000 That was like all spliced together and tampered with and it's not even a real tape.

00:59:30.000 Even though it's spliced, if it's only from one bug, you're not going to hear voices from all over the village.

00:59:37.000 That's right.

00:59:37.000 And if it's that good, then you should have picked up the 200 shots they claim we fired at the tanks.

00:59:41.000 That's right.

00:59:43.000 My testimony is that I didn't hear any shooting from inside on April 19th.

00:59:48.000 Yeah.

00:59:48.000 But did y'all, like...

00:59:51.000 Or make Molotov cocktails or any of that sort of stuff?

00:59:54.000 They always talk about it.

00:59:56.000 I mean, when you're in this kind of a situation, when you're getting all these threats, like we were being told even before April 9th, we don't want anybody in the tower.

01:00:09.000 If we see anybody in the tower, we'll consider that a threatening gesture.

01:00:13.000 We don't want anybody looking out the windows.

01:00:15.000 They start making demands more and more as they got to the end.

01:00:21.000 Like I say, that develops an attitude.

01:00:23.000 I can remember talking to people in the chat and saying, well, if they do come in with tanks, like, how do you stop a tank for crying out loud?

01:00:30.000 You know, because you're thinking all kinds of things.

01:00:33.000 What you can do, you know, stick a crowbar in the truck.

01:00:36.000 Clive, what about them also calling a few days before the final assault, final attack, where they told you it wasn't an assault, with classic doublespeak?

01:00:46.000 Clive, what about them calling and saying, you better have fire extinguishers, or do you have any fire extinguishers?

01:00:52.000 That call, from what I understand, was made, I'm not sure of the date, a few days before, I guess, before the last day.

01:01:01.000 And Steve Schneider, I believe, was on the phone, and they asked him, did we have any fire extinguishers?

01:01:07.000 And he didn't even know, so he kind of asked somebody to run and find out.

01:01:11.000 And then he tells them, well, I'm told we got one.

01:01:15.000 And the guy is supposed to have said, you know, you better get yourself some fire insurance.

01:01:20.000 But, you know, that's not a first-hand story.

01:01:22.000 I mean, other than listening to the tape.

01:01:25.000 Oh, it's on the tape?

01:01:26.000 It's on the tape, yeah.

01:01:27.000 Clyde, the reason I'm asking so much about that.50 caliber on that first day is, wasn't it on the first day when that helicopter was shot down?

01:01:34.000 Or was that on the...

01:01:36.000 That was the first day, right?

01:01:38.000 I think all three helicopters claimed that we...

01:01:42.000 No, there was one that actually...

01:01:44.000 None of them, well, I don't know whether it couldn't fly again.

01:01:48.000 I don't think it was totally crippled, but it did take some shots, yeah.

01:01:53.000 And the reason I ask that, if there is any evidence, like if they use 50-caliber, maybe on the other helicopters or something, shooting up the building, or if there's any 50-caliber fire at all, is because...

01:02:04.000 My question is, is that night vision?

01:02:06.000 Yes.

01:02:06.000 You can take it out of night vision because there's enough light there.

01:02:09.000 Take it out and I'll do this.

01:02:10.000 No, no.

01:02:11.000 I want to make sure I've got something where it's...

01:02:14.000 Well, let me just...

01:02:15.000 Clive's going to be green on this.

01:02:16.000 There, Clive, now you can think about it.

01:02:18.000 No, this is a...

01:02:22.000 February 28th, I filmed a little green.

01:02:24.000 Okay, hold it.

01:02:25.000 Even if you do a bright flash, you kind of ruin it, huh?

01:02:28.000 Yeah.

01:02:29.000 Well, it's not film, it's just tapes and it's digital to work.

01:02:32.000 Yeah.

01:02:33.000 But, yeah, what...

01:02:34.000 Talk, Clive, we've got the light on you.

01:02:38.000 I just want to get this question.

01:02:39.000 You remember Mario Boinkin, the pizza shop guy from Austin?

01:02:44.000 Yeah.

01:02:45.000 A buddy of his is a maintenance chief, or was at that time a maintenance chief for those helicopters out at Fort Hood.

01:02:53.000 And I think it was the day after, one or two days after, when they assaulted a place here, Mario went up to Fort Hood, talked to this guy, and the guy pointed out a.50 caliber hole.

01:03:06.000 In that helicopter.

01:03:08.000 And Mario told me that he stuck his finger into that hole and he recognized it as being like a.50 caliber size.

01:03:14.000 So that's what I was curious if they even shot their own helicopter down.

01:03:18.000 I couldn't vouch for that.

01:03:21.000 They maintained during the trial that we'd shot at the helicopters and it's quite possible that some of the guys did.

01:03:27.000 Well, I would have if they'd be shooting at my house.

01:03:30.000 But I've seen some footage.

01:03:34.000 A friend in Houston showed us some footage that he had of where these helicopters are flying, you know, they're coming in, approaching the place.

01:03:41.000 And then it has this footage where they land in a field out here somewhere.

01:03:45.000 I guess it was down over the hill near this neighbor's house.

01:03:48.000 And they get out and point right at the hole.

01:03:51.000 And I said, there's something wrong with this footage.

01:03:54.000 They know exactly where the holes are before they even get out.

01:03:57.000 I said, have they done this?

01:03:58.000 Is this the second time they've looked, you know, or not?

01:04:02.000 It almost looks like it was staged for the camera, because there's a guy taking his picture.

01:04:06.000 They all get out of the helicopter.

01:04:07.000 Oh, look, look, look, look!

01:04:09.000 That makes sense.

01:04:11.000 That makes sense.

01:04:13.000 Yeah, they didn't actually shoot the helicopter down, but they put holes in it.

01:04:17.000 And 50 caliber holes just so they could say that y'all had a 50 caliber machine gun.

01:04:22.000 Clive, you said earlier, if they want to burn this down together, they're you said earlier, if they want to burn this down together, they're going to have some trouble, Yeah, we'd even have trouble.

01:04:46.000 With all that no burn?

01:04:49.000 I tell you, like I said, if God wants it to burn, it'll burn no matter what it's made of brick.

01:04:55.000 Amen.

01:04:55.000 If God doesn't want it to burn, no matter what they do, it won't burn.

01:04:58.000 Amen.

01:04:59.000 And that's what you have to put your trust in.

01:05:01.000 You know, the final bottom line is whether you believe, you know, in God or not.

01:05:09.000 There's a question in the Bible, or a statement, I should say, that says, you know, if the builders build without God on their side, then they build in vain.

01:05:20.000 So that's one reason we need to be considerate of how we act and what we talk about and everything else while we're in it.

01:05:27.000 This is a special place, you know, it's not just a...

01:05:30.000 Any old building sort of thing.

01:05:36.000 So anyway, did we answer your question?

01:05:40.000 Yes, I believe so.

01:05:41.000 I think that's the answer, actually, is they put those holes there themselves.

01:05:46.000 Well, I'm not swearing to, but my first question on seeing the footage was, there's something wrong with this picture.

01:05:52.000 These guys know where every hole is when they're just jumping out like they've just landed, and this is the first time there's...

01:05:59.000 I got out of the plane.

01:06:01.000 You may know you've taken some shots, but you're going to have to look for them.

01:06:08.000 That's where we got hit.

01:06:10.000 This is a staged deal just for the camera.

01:06:13.000 This so happened to have a camera there when they landed.

01:06:17.000 Now, Claude, they don't lie.

01:06:20.000 I don't know.

01:06:21.000 Maybe they've been lying so much that it feels like standing up.

01:06:24.000 Yeah.

01:06:25.000 You know, all the focus.

01:06:27.000 After a while, if you lie a lot.

01:06:31.000 They had a church up the front gate, you know, when I first came.

01:06:34.000 I was doing a job in there one day and the ladder slipped out from under me and the ladder fell down and I landed on my back on top of the ladder.

01:06:42.000 Knocked the wind out of me.

01:06:43.000 So I was laying there for quite a while before I could get up and I'm looking at the ceiling and all of a sudden my brain just kind of flipped over to where the ceiling looked like the floor.

01:06:53.000 Everything looked...

01:06:54.000 Like it was the right way up.

01:06:55.000 Only the lights were coming up out of the floor and the pews were all along the ceiling.

01:06:59.000 You know, just laying there kind of days.

01:07:01.000 And maybe that's the way they view things from a different perspective.

01:07:07.000 That's good, Clive.

01:07:07.000 Thanks.

01:07:09.000 Okay.

01:07:10.000 Right after the raid, when the ATF and everybody are giving this press conference and everything, they're talking about how we ambushed them and we were all at the windows shooting and all that.

01:07:20.000 And I'm going, wow.

01:07:22.000 You know, that's not the truth.

01:07:24.000 And so I go up to my room, or I've been in my room, and I go back to my room, and my room's intact.

01:07:30.000 There's not a bullet hole in my room at all.

01:07:32.000 Mine was the third window from the north end.

01:07:34.000 And so I'm going, phew!

01:07:36.000 You know, at least I can't say Clyde Dove was in his room shooting at the ATF coming in, because I got no bullet holes.

01:07:42.000 There's no reaction to any firing on my part, see?

01:07:45.000 So this goes on all during this field, I'm thinking.

01:07:47.000 This is evidence.

01:07:49.000 There's good evidence.

01:07:50.000 You know, my room's not shut up.

01:07:51.000 My glass is not open.

01:07:53.000 Oh, cool.

01:07:53.000 Lo and behold, just before the last, you know, maybe a week before the last, they're clearing it.

01:07:59.000 Every time we'd send somebody out, they'd punish us by, you know, tearing up the cars or tearing the fence down.

01:08:05.000 Throwing a flashbang.

01:08:06.000 Whatever.

01:08:07.000 So, they come along one day with the tanks, and they're bulldozing all the trees down the fence.

01:08:13.000 And I had a tree right outside my window.

01:08:15.000 They bulldozed that tree and a branch comes right through the window.

01:08:18.000 There goes my evidence that there was no shooting on February 28th because the glass is all smashed up, you know?

01:08:24.000 Now, Clive, what did you think when you were told a few minutes before they got here that, hey, somebody's coming out to search the house or the BATF or the police or something?

01:08:34.000 What did you think was going to happen if they did come out here for your search?

01:08:37.000 Initially?

01:08:39.000 Yes.

01:08:41.000 I really didn't know.

01:08:42.000 I mean, we knew that we were being watched from across the road for about six weeks before the raid.

01:08:49.000 Early in January, these guys moved into the house.

01:08:52.000 And they start acting strange right from the start.

01:08:55.000 I mean, they'd be shooting out in the backyard.

01:08:57.000 When we tried to go over and be friendly, they wouldn't let us in the house and all kinds of weird stuff going on.

01:09:01.000 So we were suspicious.

01:09:03.000 But I never heard David or anyone else say, hey, the ATF watcher.

01:09:08.000 We knew.

01:09:08.000 Somebody was watching us, but we thought maybe it was immigration people because we had people from all over the world here and we figured they're suspicious, you know, they're watching to see who we got here.

01:09:19.000 So it was no big deal.

01:09:22.000 But on February 28th, from what I read, I didn't remember, but people tell me it was drizzling or it was raining that day.

01:09:35.000 All I can remember was being in my room.

01:09:38.000 We'd already had breakfast, and I was back in my room.

01:09:40.000 And all of a sudden, I hear a lot of people out here in the cafeteria, and I thought, what's going on?

01:09:45.000 Seems to be a lot of people out there, and we've already eaten, so what's the deal?

01:09:49.000 So I go in there to find out what's going on, and somebody says, hey, we just got word that somebody's coming.

01:09:55.000 It's going to be some kind of a raid or whatever.

01:09:59.000 And about that time, David walked in from this side.

01:10:02.000 He'd come down the hall, come into the cafeteria from this other side.

01:10:07.000 And basically confirmed it.

01:10:09.000 He says, we just heard that, you know, the whole bunch of some kind of agents coming.

01:10:15.000 And he says, I want everybody to stay cool, go back to your rooms, just be calm.

01:10:20.000 He said, I'll go down the front door and talk to them, see what they want, and, you know, try to talk to them.

01:10:25.000 So I went back to my room.

01:10:27.000 I heard him walk down the hall, heard him open the front door, and next thing, he's yelling, hey, wait a minute, there's women and children here, you know.

01:10:35.000 Let's talk about this.

01:10:36.000 And all hell breaks loose.

01:10:37.000 I mean, there's shots coming in the front door like crazy.

01:10:40.000 And my initial reaction was run down the hall because I figured there's going to be blood and guts everywhere.

01:10:47.000 Massacre.

01:10:48.000 And I get about level with where we are.

01:10:54.000 About halfway down the hall and Perry Jones is crawling up the hall screaming that he's being shot.

01:10:59.000 He'd gone to the front door with David.

01:11:01.000 And he's telling me David's been shot.

01:11:03.000 So I'm trying to comfort him.

01:11:04.000 He's laying on the floor and screaming.

01:11:06.000 And I said, hang in there, Perry, because I'm thinking there's all these other people dead inside the front door or whatever.

01:11:13.000 So I go running down there, and lo and behold, there's no one inside, no one in the foyer area at all.

01:11:17.000 So I run back to Perry, and I'm trying to help him.

01:11:21.000 So on the tape, as we see the BATF from the outside firing in incessantly, you guys are just going around trying to look for people that have been shot.

01:11:28.000 You guys aren't lining the windows shooting like the television shows us?

01:11:33.000 I mean, like the made-for-TV movies?

01:11:34.000 The movies aren't real?

01:11:35.000 There'd been a lot more than four dead and 20 wounded if everybody had been there with a gun, an automatic weapon shooting at them.

01:11:42.000 But that's not the case.

01:11:44.000 In fact, I'd say most people were taken by surprise.

01:11:47.000 Even though you were initially told somebody's coming, you don't realize that it's going to be a bloody mess.

01:11:52.000 You know what I'm saying?

01:11:54.000 You maybe have a little trepidation.

01:11:57.000 Are they going to hold us all outside?

01:12:00.000 Are we all going to jail?

01:12:01.000 What's the procedure?

01:12:03.000 You know, we didn't know what was going to happen.

01:12:05.000 But David, more or less, said, well, you know, everybody stay calm.

01:12:08.000 I'll go down and talk to them, so you figure he'll handle it, you know.

01:12:11.000 And so next thing we know, all the shooting at the front door, people upstairs, of course, are hearing the shooting from the helicopters.

01:12:20.000 And so, like I say, I went running down a Fard Perry shot. 1.00

01:12:25.000 Troll, just dragging himself up on his hands and knees sort of thing up the hallway.

01:12:31.000 I end up helping him to a bed.

01:12:33.000 By the time I put him in a bed on this side of the long hallway in the men's dorm area, somebody says, Winston's dead.

01:12:43.000 I said, where's he at?

01:12:44.000 They said, well, he's up in his room.

01:12:45.000 So I go up there.

01:12:46.000 As I get up to that end where his room is, I could hear water running.

01:12:52.000 I thought, that's strange.

01:12:53.000 What's that?

01:12:54.000 So when I get to his doorway and I look in, he's laying on the floor in a pool of blood and water, and his windows all shattered.

01:13:02.000 And he had these water tanks out on a platform at the back, and they were completely blocking his windows.

01:13:08.000 Not like you could see in or he could see out.

01:13:11.000 These big plastic water tanks were right up against his window.

01:13:14.000 But what the helicopters had done, it riddled all the water tanks, and he was sitting on the other side of it and got a bullet in the head.

01:13:24.000 Was there any water coming in?

01:13:26.000 Oh yeah, it was all over his floor.

01:13:27.000 The carpet was soaked with blood and water.

01:13:30.000 And of course, I'm trying to feel for a pulse.

01:13:32.000 He was a pretty big black guy from England, had a real thick neck. 1.00

01:13:36.000 So I'm thinking, is it this that I can't find a pulse?

01:13:39.000 Is it really dead, you know?

01:13:41.000 Where was the bullet all in his head?

01:13:44.000 I don't remember exactly.

01:13:47.000 I remember he was lying there, you know.

01:13:52.000 How many holes would you estimate?

01:13:54.000 I mean, a lot of holes, or just a few holes in the water tanks?

01:13:56.000 Oh, there was a lot.

01:13:57.000 In fact, one day during the siege, I was going by the doorway there, and I looked in, and Greg's sitting, he'd gone upstairs and got all the boys' little plastic toy soldiers, you know, little plastic men and that, and he's sitting there with a little dinky miniature blowtorch thing, trying to melt the plastic men to plug up the holes in the water tank, because we were going to try to get the pump going again.

01:14:22.000 Maybe fill them up with water.

01:14:23.000 And I says, you're wasting your time, Greg.

01:14:25.000 And he says, what do you mean?

01:14:27.000 I says, well, you're filling all the holes on the window side, on the inside.

01:14:31.000 I said, but they're riddled on the other side, too.

01:14:34.000 You know, unless you're going to go out and expose yourself and fill them up, it's still going to leak out the other side.

01:14:40.000 Now, what angle were the holes coming in?

01:14:42.000 They were coming down there.

01:14:43.000 The high on the outside, low on the inside.

01:14:46.000 There's nothing out there that, you know, you can't say, well...

01:14:49.000 There's a guy in a big building across the alley, you know, shooting down into your room.

01:14:52.000 Because there's nothing but...

01:14:53.000 Yeah, it's sky, you know.

01:14:56.000 Not even the snipers up there, I don't believe, could have done it.

01:14:59.000 Because it was coming at a...

01:15:01.000 They're at the same level, that house.

01:15:02.000 Right, that's what I'm saying.

01:15:03.000 It would have to be from playing a helicopter or something.

01:15:06.000 So you were expecting to be brought on the lawn and have them search through your stuff.

01:15:10.000 I had, like I said, this was a couple of days later when the arrangement was that we would all go out.

01:15:16.000 We'd all come out together.

01:15:18.000 And so I went down to the kitchen here and packed a lunch, paper bag lunch, you know, for my daughter and I. And I'm thinking, you know, we'll all just go out and we'll sit on the lawn and they'll come in here and search the building, get whatever they come to get.

01:15:31.000 And when they're through, we'll all come back in.

01:15:34.000 That's how stupid it was, naive.

01:15:37.000 But as time wore on and more and more people came out, they're all going to jail.

01:15:41.000 You're seeing pictures on the TV of them in their orange suits and being arraigned in court and all that kind of thing.

01:15:47.000 This is not going to be simplified.

01:15:50.000 What about later, when branch of Indians would try to come out and get papers or documents or give things to the federal government?

01:15:56.000 That was probably about, I'd say, the last week before the fire.

01:16:01.000 So even when the feds...

01:16:02.000 If somebody come out on the roof, if they come out a window or doorway, for whatever reason, including Steve Schneider, who had already arranged over the phones to come out, they were going to bring some kind of stuff in.

01:16:15.000 I don't know whether it was the supplies for the typewriter or what.

01:16:18.000 They were bringing something in in a tank.

01:16:19.000 They pulled up out there on the driver.

01:16:21.000 He came out the front door, walked over to him.

01:16:23.000 They gave him the stuff.

01:16:24.000 He turned around and got just about to open the front door and they lobbed these two flashbangs out of him.

01:16:29.000 Scared the daylights out of him.

01:16:30.000 But David Jones got lobbed out.

01:16:34.000 We were out in the gym one day digging a hole for the potty hole, you know.

01:16:40.000 For dead?

01:16:41.000 No, no, no.

01:16:42.000 For waste.

01:16:43.000 Oh, okay.

01:16:45.000 We could hear them lobbing these things out, you know, just outside the wall.

01:16:50.000 It's kind of scary, you know, even though they're on the other side of the wall.

01:16:54.000 Flashbang grenades?

01:16:55.000 Well, that's what I assumed they were.

01:16:57.000 It sounded like the same kind of noise, you know.

01:16:59.000 We didn't see those ones, but like I heard that Pablo Cohen got flashbangs.

01:17:06.000 David Jones got flashbangs.

01:17:07.000 Steve Schneider got flashbangs.

01:17:09.000 So they would call you out to give you information or give you milk or whatever and throw flashbangs.

01:17:15.000 Steve went out on, you might say, an official agreed-upon rendezvous on that particular day.

01:17:21.000 Some of the other guys might have just stepped out for a breath of fresh air or for whatever.

01:17:26.000 I don't know.

01:17:26.000 I'm sure you guys called to the negotiators and brought that up.

01:17:29.000 What did they say when you said, hey, you told us to come out, you're throwing grenades at us?

01:17:32.000 I'm sure Steve did, but I don't remember all the conversations back and forth.

01:17:38.000 Most times when you brought anything to their attention, to the negotiators' attention, They would disassociate themselves.

01:17:46.000 Well, you know, we tell you things in good faith and, you know, we're the good guys.

01:17:53.000 But the tactical team, we got no control over them, and they just do whatever they want to do.

01:17:58.000 Good cop, bad cop.

01:17:59.000 Yeah.

01:18:00.000 Do you think it was good cop, bad cop psychology?

01:18:03.000 I think some of the negotiators genuinely were upset that they were losing credibility because of the actions of the people in the tanks and so forth.

01:18:13.000 I think, you know, one was hurting the other's efforts.

01:18:16.000 So you think the negotiators and the troops out here actually had a little bit of a feud going, or you don't know?

01:18:22.000 Yeah, I think there's a certain amount of rivalry.

01:18:24.000 I think there's, you know, they like to throw up at David.

01:18:29.000 When we didn't come out as agreed early in the piece, they made this accusation.

01:18:36.000 Well, you're a lie.

01:18:38.000 You know, you're a man of your word.

01:18:40.000 You can't be trusted.

01:18:42.000 And on one of the tapes, you know, David brings up and says, well, you know, you promised certain things the other day, and now it's different, or, you know, you didn't come through for us.

01:18:53.000 Well, you've got to understand, we're just peons.

01:18:56.000 You know, we're just here doing the negotiating, but we've got bosses over us making decisions.

01:19:01.000 Well, then how can we make a deal with you?

01:19:02.000 And then, you know, they've got bosses in Washington that overrule them, and you've just got to understand, we really don't have a whole lot of power.

01:19:11.000 And David says, well, why is it that you can't understand that I've got a boss upstairs that sometimes overrules, you know, something we've agreed on yesterday?

01:19:21.000 He may say no.

01:19:22.000 Why can't you understand that I've got a higher-up person that I've got an answer to, and yet, you know, you want to call me a liar.

01:19:30.000 You want to say, well, I'm not a man of my word.

01:19:32.000 But you can cop out when your promises don't come by because, well, we've got people over us.

01:19:38.000 We've heard about them.

01:19:40.000 The hostage rescue team's military people mooning and flashing you guys.

01:19:44.000 Was that one reason you guys didn't?

01:19:48.000 It certainly develops an attitude.

01:19:52.000 Even though things may or may not, I don't know people's hearts, but at one point the people from the Methodist home where they were taking all our kids, they sent a video in supposedly to show us how well they were treating our kids.

01:20:11.000 We've got the TV blaring and the kids have got an ice cream and a coke and watching videos and they're just bouncing off the furniture like they're having a sugar high.

01:20:22.000 And most of the mothers that saw it were pretty upset and gone, that is not the way we taught our children to behave.

01:20:28.000 It's not that we wouldn't give them that ice cream.

01:20:31.000 Or something, a drink, you know, from time to time, but it wasn't their steady diet.

01:20:35.000 But they thought they were being good to the kids by just loading them up with sugar and stuff.

01:20:39.000 And like I said, one of the comments I heard was, this is sad, you know.

01:20:45.000 You wouldn't think some of these kids just saw their mother shot or saw some of their friends wounded a few days before.

01:20:53.000 Here they are, clowning for the camera and all this kind of stuff.

01:20:59.000 And, you know, like I said, the people that made the video may have had good intentions, but it was used, it had a negative effect, we'll say, on us.

01:21:08.000 A lot of the parents that still had children, they were hesitant about wanting to send them out to this kind of a situation.

01:21:16.000 The same with when, you know, you made reference to the mooning and giving the finger and making threats and all.

01:21:23.000 It all develops an attitude in the people that you're dealing with.

01:21:26.000 Hey, he's a bunch of...

01:21:29.000 Monsters or these are people who wants to give their kids...

01:21:33.000 Mike, you're yelling as loud as you possibly could.

01:21:36.000 So, you know, every situation creates...

01:21:41.000 And your moods go up and down.

01:21:43.000 You're going through rationed food.

01:21:46.000 You're going to have to go to the bathroom on a bucket and empty it, you know, dig a hole and bury it or whatever.

01:21:53.000 We were used to, you might say, primitive conditions compared to some people.

01:21:57.000 But that was even a harder thing to have to deal with for 51 days.

01:22:03.000 Like I said, everything can make you have an attitude.

01:22:13.000 From what I remember of people's comments and stuff like that, they were not too respectful, you might say.

01:22:21.000 By the time you get through the 51 days, they don't have much...

01:22:24.000 A bad hair day.

01:22:26.000 Faith and confidence.

01:22:27.000 A bad hair day.

01:22:28.000 Trust in the FBI. Yeah, and a bad hair day.

01:22:30.000 Pretty cranky.

01:22:31.000 Well, I mean, like I said, we were used to hardship.

01:22:34.000 The hardship was bothering us in a way, but it wasn't having the desired effect that they wanted it to have.

01:22:40.000 In other words, several people that survived and came out, I know, lost 25 to 30 pounds, including myself, in weight just from lack of water and food because we were on rations.

01:22:54.000 We weren't mad because we were hungry, sort of thing.

01:22:57.000 We were more upset with the attitudes that were coming across the phones or the loudspeakers.

01:23:04.000 Things like that.

01:23:06.000 The fact that they weren't operating in good faith.

01:23:10.000 Plus, you know, we're watching them every day get up and do these media briefings at 10 o'clock every morning at the convention center and they're just lying or they're painting a picture that's just making us look like You know, kooks.

01:23:25.000 Bob, did you ever stop and think that while this is going on, it's setting the stage for, hey, the government's good, we go raid bad people, we take them out, they're kooks, you're on our side, we're the winning team, kind of like a Super Bowl mentality nationwide for 51 days?

01:23:43.000 What I see with law enforcement and government agents, especially on the federal level, is that...

01:23:51.000 They want to come across as a good guy.

01:23:56.000 They want to be the public to believe in them.

01:23:59.000 It makes their job easier.

01:24:01.000 But in all reality, the bottom line is they don't give a damn what you think.

01:24:07.000 But they would like you to think that they're a good guy.

01:24:09.000 So they'll go to a certain amount of subterfuge and lying and painting the other guy bad.

01:24:17.000 To make themselves look good, they'd like you to accept that image, but if you don't, they really don't care.

01:24:22.000 They're going to do what they're going to do anyway.

01:24:24.000 Well, the big thing is they want to get local support because Climb, the last seven years, we're coming up on seven years, coming up on April 19th here in 2000. I've talked to so many SWAT team, police, military, government agents, talked to them across the board on the radio and off the air.

01:24:42.000 They say that starting seven years ago, Waco was the kickoff for merging the military and the police.

01:24:48.000 What's the excuse?

01:24:49.000 Just like, you know, Reagan and Brady and all them people getting wounded was enough to start all this gun legislation and things like that.

01:24:58.000 What is gun control about?

01:25:00.000 Why do powerful governments always seek to disarm the population?

01:25:04.000 Because they don't want a population that can fight back or to protect themselves.

01:25:08.000 They want subdued people.

01:25:10.000 They want people that will do what they're told.

Alex Jones Show - January 01, 2001

Alex Jones Helps Rebuild Waco Church Clvie Doyle Interview

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