2 ATHEISTS CORNER A MUSLIM - SPEAKERS CORNER
Episode Stats
Words per Minute
217.51791
Summary
In this episode, we talk about the question, "Is there a God?" and how to prove or not that God exists. Do you believe or do you not believe in God? What is the burden of proof?
Transcript
00:00:09.000
Yeah, let's see, because I'll be in the center.
00:00:13.000
Yeah, so we were saying, so basically, what was your question?
00:00:21.000
Okay, yeah. So when you said demonstrate, you said that, what would you require?
00:00:28.000
That's the whole point. It's a supernatural claim.
00:00:31.000
So you would have to need a supernatural demonstration.
00:00:35.000
No, but even if the demonstration is supernatural, would you accept it?
00:00:38.000
So for example, when you say prove it to me, the question that needs to be asked is the following.
00:00:42.000
If I said to you, okay, here's a vision of God. There's God. Would you believe it?
00:00:48.000
It depends on the vision. It depends on the proof.
00:00:50.000
So let's suppose out of the sky, an image popped up and it said, I am God.
00:00:56.000
Would you believe it or would you say this is magic?
00:00:58.000
I'm not sure. It depends on the case, but that's not the case.
00:01:02.000
So the reality of the moment is that when you make a certain claim, like a God exists, you adopt the burden of proof.
00:01:08.000
And when you adopt the burden of proof, you should be able to demonstrate that burden.
00:01:13.000
So I believe, I believe the burden of proof is on you, not me.
00:01:16.000
Because you're claiming, you're denying that God doesn't exist.
00:01:19.000
I'm just saying, I'm saying on the question, does a God exist?
00:01:23.000
I'm saying, I don't know, but I am not convinced of such when I look at the evidence being provided by religious people.
00:01:32.000
Okay. We can't look. My name's Ali. What's your name?
00:01:41.000
If an image, because you said, can you demonstrate it?
00:01:44.000
If I was to show you an image in the sky, an image popped up and said, I am God, would you believe it?
00:01:50.000
Or is there a chance that you would say that's illusion? That's magic? Or I'm playing some kind of-
00:01:55.000
That doesn't matter because that is not the case.
00:01:57.000
The case is that you're making the claim and you have no, you have a burden of proof and you haven't shown any demonstration.
00:02:04.000
I can, but he said that if I can see. His condition was if I can see.
00:02:09.000
No, not, I'm talking colloquially see. Can you demonstrate?
00:02:17.000
Yes, we can, we can. There's a lot of methods. There's a lot of methods.
00:02:19.000
So for the first one, for example, I was talking about the mobile phone. Yeah?
00:02:35.000
Like I said, there are factories who create the phones.
00:02:39.000
You could, if you want, learn how to make a phone and create one by yourself.
00:02:49.000
You can't compare creation of a phone or a house or a car or a building with the creation of a universe.
00:03:03.000
You've demonstrated to me that there is a phone.
00:03:06.000
Have you demonstrated to me how it was assembled?
00:03:16.000
Do you believe this phone is designed because you can go to the factory or because you went to the factory?
00:03:30.000
You're trying to get away from your burden of proof and that is the demonstration of this existence.
00:03:40.000
You're just coming up with kind of, like he said, tap dances to like avoid, turn around the questions.
00:03:47.000
The thing is, what we need to address is the existence of a God.
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Why should I believe in it if you cannot demonstrate?
00:04:02.000
I have no shadow of a doubt that I can demonstrate, not because of who I am.
00:04:13.000
In order for me to demonstrate it, you have to understand my argument.
00:04:17.000
If I speak two sentences and you stop me, you're not going to understand.
00:04:22.000
Do you believe the phone that he had in his hand, which he demonstrated, is designed based on you going to the factory?
00:04:31.000
Have you gone to the iPhone factory and seen the iPhone get assembled?
00:04:44.000
I'm demonstrating design to come to the previous existence of God.
00:04:57.000
I'm either tap dancing or I'm not dancing at all.
00:05:09.000
When I made the point, you're going to understand it very clearly because I think you're not understanding.
00:05:12.000
Do you believe this phone is designed based on the fact that you went to the factory or you believe it's designed because you can go to the factory?
00:05:26.000
You're answering a question with another question.
00:05:28.000
No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
00:05:34.000
Just to dance along, let me answer your question.
00:05:37.000
So first, one of the things we could do to conclude the phone is created is go to the factory.
00:05:44.000
Another thing, like I said, we could create our own phone.
00:05:57.000
I think for men it's haram to dance anyway, yeah?
00:06:04.000
Can we go to a factory where universes are made and see how a universe is made?
00:06:14.840
You cannot compare this with the existence of a universe.
00:06:25.540
The moment you understand this, the pin is going to drop.
00:06:32.720
I believe, just to make it easier, this phone is designed and I haven't gone to the factory.
00:06:38.780
And the reason I believe this is designed is not because I can go to the factory.
00:06:45.240
So, everything that you're wearing now, your gloves to your jacket to your shoes to the
00:06:51.520
phone to your laces, you did not go to the factory and see them get made, but you believe
00:07:01.760
Listen, we can go to the factory and we can make them ourselves.
00:07:10.920
Has anybody here gone to the iPhone factory to see iPhone get made?
00:07:22.300
I said, initially, the initial question was, I can demonstrate a phone.
00:07:31.460
I promise you, if you guys just listen to understand and not listen to reply.
00:07:42.940
I'm saying, when you say demonstration, I'm not going to come and say, hey, look, there's
00:07:59.320
I, Ali, believe that the clothes that I wear, indeed, official, check it out.
00:08:04.900
The trainers that I have, the iPhone that I have, to the microphone that I'm holding,
00:08:11.100
I did not go to the factory to see the watch made, the clothes made, the phone made, the
00:08:40.400
You believe that your phone is made and you haven't gone to the factory.
00:09:04.980
The reason you believe that iPhone is designed without you going to the factory is because
00:09:14.820
Because we have millions of examples of phones being made.
00:09:19.880
What about a documentary about a factory which makes iPhones?
00:09:25.380
What about seeing a documentary about a factory that makes phones?
00:09:31.420
But you're missing a fundamental point, which I said, which is the following.
00:09:44.980
Don't laugh, don't laugh, don't laugh, don't laugh.
00:09:52.900
Because we can, because we can check the, check the, the, the, the, the.
00:09:58.040
Dragon, are you telling me that you're going to be walking down the road and you see a bottle
00:10:11.560
I have to give extreme scenarios to extreme claims.
00:10:18.920
And you see it shining and you pick it up and go, what is this?
00:10:29.400
This just came by chance or would you say it's designed?
00:10:38.360
Okay, would you ever think that it came by chance?
00:10:45.260
No, but see, the point you're missing, the point you're missing, I can go, look up.
00:11:10.900
The questions you would ask is based on the answers of the questions would determine if
00:11:25.520
Hypothetically, you're walking and you see this device.
00:11:28.700
The first question you ask yourself, because there's nobody to ask is, what is this?
00:11:48.960
But the first conclusion you come to is that this came from somewhere.
00:12:02.960
Could I, like, leave the desert and try to find?
00:12:15.220
So what you've done for me is now you've made my case for me.
00:12:19.340
Number one, you have affirmed that we believe in things without going to the factory.
00:12:30.140
Okay, have you seen how your glasses were made?
00:12:33.460
The moment we can verify it by actually going to a factory, by actually reproducing such
00:12:44.260
things as clothes, as phones, as whatever, being able to do that, we can determine, yes,
00:12:49.780
this is made, but we cannot do the same for the universe and for God.
00:12:55.380
But what we understood, which we agreed on, is this, that we've agreed that the factory
00:13:02.380
is irrelevant to the equation because, let me tell you why, because I know very well
00:13:07.620
and you know very well, your glasses or there's something, even if you never saw factories
00:13:11.620
in your life, and you was walking and you saw these gates, and you've never ever seen a
00:13:17.460
factory, you will say the gates have a pattern.
00:13:24.060
You're not going to say, hold on a second, I, no, no, one second, one second, one second,
00:13:27.620
one second, you're not going to say this, you're not going to say this, hold on a second.
00:13:30.520
Just because there's a pattern, it's not, there's a God that didn't.
00:13:41.560
But hear me out, brothers, brothers, please don't interject, yeah?
00:13:43.420
When you see the gates, you're not going to say, ah, I believe this came from nothing until
00:13:49.060
Your brain's going to say, thank you, that's my point.
00:13:51.900
No, but that's not the point, no, but that's the wrong point.
00:13:53.520
You're making a horrible, horrible, horrible...
00:13:57.940
No, no, no, no, I'm not going to let any people decide.
00:14:02.460
I'm going to say, now, now, now, I'm going to take it...
00:14:16.480
Because you acknowledge you cannot verify the existence of the universe.
00:15:15.240
We have established that your reasoning is flawed.
00:15:26.080
But nobody can deny because people are listening.
00:15:29.700
You very simply acknowledged that you believe the phone is designed not because you can go
00:15:42.240
So if there was no factories, you would deny the iPhone is made?
00:15:46.380
Because if there were no factories, there were no iPhones, probably.
00:15:52.200
I also said we can recreate a phone or a chair or clothes.
00:16:02.960
I never claimed you can do that with the universe because I never claimed man-made universe.
00:16:11.780
Have I ever claimed that man-made the universe?
00:16:20.080
You're comparing the creation of a phone with the creation of a universe.
00:16:31.300
I'm making a comparison because it equates that.
00:16:36.280
My friend, let me ask you a simple question and please just answer the following.
00:16:39.660
If, if, if, if, if no factories in the entire world and you come across a phone...
00:16:52.660
Would you say this phone has come from nothing?
00:16:56.040
This phone came by chance until I see how it was made or would you say no, this phone must have a course?
00:17:24.020
Okay, we're going to say, I don't know what this is.
00:17:26.640
But are we going to say this came from nothing?
00:17:29.780
Or are we going to say this came from somewhere which I don't know what it is?
00:17:43.960
But before what it is, would we logically say this came from somewhere?
00:17:59.160
We don't know what it is, but it came from somewhere.
00:18:10.500
So, now we have concluded that if we see an object, an identified object, a UFO, you name
00:18:18.020
We don't know where the hell it came from, but there is somewhere it came from, logically.
00:18:23.080
Now, this thing that we call a phone, is the phone more complex or the universe?
00:18:45.200
If my phone has somewhere it came from, and because it's designed, if the universe is
00:18:51.560
more designed, it has more rights to say that there was a factory or a creator that made
00:18:57.160
And please tell me where's the logical fallacy.
00:19:06.000
Just the way he said, if he saw a thing on the universe, in the desert, he would say
00:19:21.100
But see, you're jumping to the wrong conclusion.
00:19:24.140
Because the only reason we would conclude that the phone was made by someone is, again,
00:19:34.220
And we can, we're in the desert, we're never talking about factories, we're never talking
00:19:42.620
Hypothetically, he's saying we're in the desert and we don't know anything.
00:19:49.560
He's made a point and I admire him for his honesty.
00:20:02.140
If the phone is like that, what about the universe?
00:20:15.900
Because logically, intelligently, you're deducing and saying there has to be a factory.
00:20:21.780
I'm doing that because you compare it with a phone.
00:20:30.200
A paper is not as complex a design as a phone, yeah?
00:20:37.260
The universe is a billion times more complex than this paper.
00:20:40.280
If the paper requires a factory, well, guess what?
00:20:45.480
So you couldn't think of anything else than God, right?
00:20:54.340
Or perhaps two universes collided and there are...
00:21:16.240
And multiverse theory, it still goes back to the problem of infinite...
00:21:33.180
Right now, what we're trying to establish is does God exist?
00:21:36.400
Once we've established that, then you can ask me that question.
00:21:41.040
When you demonstrate the existence of the God...
00:21:59.220
Okay, so the whole entire universe came to existence by chance.
00:22:10.660
If you claim something, just because you give it a number,
00:22:15.200
That means it's operationally impossible, meaning...
00:22:20.580
Okay, is there a chance you can become a lamppost?
00:22:31.980
So then there is a lesser of a chance for the universe to just pop into existence.
00:22:47.740
If the phone has a cause, the universe is a billion times more complex than the phone.
00:23:02.920
If I'm the maker of the phone, I created it for a certain purpose.
00:23:06.900
So you gave it a purpose and you gave it a cause.
00:23:49.580
So therefore, if you're gonna accept that everything that is made has a cause.
00:23:57.600
Why don't you wake up today and say, you know what?
00:24:05.000
If you're gonna go with chance, what's the chance that my dad is...
00:24:12.240
Okay, so this is logically and rationally, how do you make that claim that the whole universe came by chance?
00:24:31.080
So how is it that it's given rise to us who have a conscious will?
00:24:36.840
We have a conscious will and we have intelligence.
00:24:50.360
Brothers, brothers, brothers, brothers, please, please, please.
00:24:53.740
If this is empty, not literally, because we know there's some particles in here.
00:24:58.380
If we give this billions of years time, is there a chance that I'll have a chocolate strawberry cheesecake with extra chocolate on top?
00:25:06.020
It doesn't make sense because this is not alive.
00:25:07.740
All I've heard from you, Dragon, is it doesn't make sense and you've never explained why it doesn't make sense.
00:25:11.220
I'm going to explain it now because this is not alive.
00:25:15.260
But, okay, so if it's empty, how can it give rise to something it doesn't have innate?
00:25:23.400
So I'm saying even if you give it trillions of years, you will never get a cheesecake because the elements to make a cheesecake is not inside.
00:25:31.640
Because this is a piece of plastic produced by an effective thank you.
00:25:39.120
No, it does because if you keep saying the phone, the plastic, the card, your trainers,
00:25:43.420
your hat needs a factory, but for some reason, for some reason, the unit, it is, but for some reason, the biggest universe,
00:25:50.100
the universe that is more complex than your socks, is trance.
00:25:55.580
I'm saying, listen, I'm saying, if there is a factory, if there is such thing, you should be able to show it, to demonstrate.
00:26:13.720
No, you can demonstrate, for example, radio waves, you can demonstrate.
00:26:22.880
One second, brother, brother, brother, brother, brother, brother, brother, brother, brother.
00:26:31.720
A flying object, but you don't know where it is, okay?
00:26:53.720
It's something that doesn't need to be demonstrated at all.
00:26:59.720
It doesn't have to be demonstrated, but you have to be demonstrated good.
00:27:05.720
Because our consciousness is a product of our brain.
00:27:10.720
Wait, wait, wait, let me finish, let me finish.
00:27:25.720
And yet again, consciousness and God is a bad comparison.
00:27:30.720
You always say that, but you don't demonstrate it.
00:27:39.720
Our consciousness didn't create our whole universe.
00:27:48.720
I asked you, can you demonstrate your consciousness to me?
00:28:02.720
And like I said, our consciousness is a product...
00:28:05.720
Like I said, our consciousness is a product of our brain.
00:28:09.720
There's a whole argument with scientists about the hard problem of consciousness.
00:28:22.720
Because every part of your body is made out of cells.
00:28:25.720
If it renews itself, then why don't you become another person if your consciousness is connected
00:28:30.720
Because every part of your cell, it renews itself.
00:28:33.720
If it renews itself, then you should become a different person.
00:28:36.720
Because if your cells are connected to your consciousness, to your brain.
00:28:40.720
Do you have like the same beliefs about certain things?
00:28:46.720
When you were like 10 years old, did you have certain things you believe were true, which
00:28:58.720
Learning and consciousness are separate things.
00:29:02.720
I can show you that I'm real and that my brain exists.
00:29:11.720
If you said to me, you said to me, I have to show you.
00:29:17.720
If you say to me, you have me to show you God, then I'm going to say, show me your consciousness.
00:29:23.720
Because you're asking for something that you can't do.
00:29:40.720
You can call it tap dancing, rap dancing, whatever you want to call it.
00:29:47.720
I'm just here to dialogue and learn and share the opinions that I have.
00:30:03.720
We accepted today that we believe in things that we haven't gone and seen, that factories.
00:30:09.720
We've also demonstrated that seeing is not believing because if that's the case, we'll
00:30:16.720
So therefore, we have to admit that the universe cannot come from nothing.
00:30:24.720
The universe cannot come from nothing because nothing is the absence of something.
00:30:50.720
The arguments that I brought forth, I haven't seen one rebuttal.
00:31:09.720
My consciousness is a part of me, a part of my brain, okay?
00:31:20.720
And that's the thing that religious persons always try to do.
00:31:26.720
Because you are claiming that, hey, God exists.
00:31:31.720
Anything you can do is tap dance, tap dance, and tap dance more.
00:31:39.720
Even if I shifted it, I've presented an argument.
00:32:03.720
If you cannot show me your conscious mind, you cannot come and say to me, show me or demonstrate God.
00:32:11.720
No, you can't because you said you can't demonstrate your conscious mind.
00:32:13.720
Because I know that my consciousness is a part, like I said-
00:32:23.720
So therefore, if you can't, you can't come and say to me-
00:32:31.720
Otherwise, I don't believe because your argument is flawed.
00:32:49.720
It means that you can't come and tell me that I have to demonstrate or show you God, because
00:32:54.720
if that's your premise, you can't show me your conscious mind.
00:32:57.720
So, that means we believe in things that exist that we don't see.
00:33:05.720
Like I said, a consciousness is a product of us human beings.
00:33:19.720
The fact is that we all have a consciousness, right?
00:33:27.720
The thing is, the thing is, by shifting this burden of proof, I didn't.
00:33:35.720
The burden is on me, then let me carry the burden of the argument on me.
00:33:39.720
Therefore, I said, my argument was the following to them, yeah?
00:33:46.720
You believe, do you believe this iPhone is designed because you went to the factory?
00:33:51.720
Or even, you believe it even if you didn't go to the factory?
00:33:54.720
Is your belief in the iPhone is designed based on the fact that you could go to the factory,
00:34:04.720
We believe things around us, my clothes, my trainers, I believe they're designed,
00:34:08.720
not because I can go to the factory, but by losing my logic and saying there is design.
00:34:13.720
They say, no, I'll only believe if I see the factory.
00:34:19.720
I'm saying, we can know, we can determine that a phone is made because we can go to a factory.
00:34:25.720
And, you forgot again, we can, if we put our minds together, create a phone of ourselves, right?
00:34:31.720
So, that's why, that's why, comparing a phone with the universe is not done.
00:34:41.720
By proving that a phone is created, that doesn't mean that a God must be created.
00:34:48.720
Because what that means is, what that means is the following.
00:34:51.720
I wake up, I look at this paper, I believe it's designed, I believe it has a purpose, therefore
00:34:56.720
if somebody designed it, but the universe dies a million times more complex, came by chance.
00:35:17.720
You're coming with creating out of nothing, blah, blah, blah.
00:35:31.720
I don't know is better than to say, I know, but I cannot prove it.
00:35:38.720
You say, I know, it's God, but I cannot show it.
00:35:41.720
And if you ask me, I'll start tap dancing and talk about phones and clothes.
00:35:47.720
I'm saying to you very simply that this is the double standards of our atheist friends sometimes,
00:35:53.720
When it comes to their day-to-day life, when they go outside, when they wake up, they don't wake
00:35:58.720
When they go downstairs and have breakfast, everything is logical.
00:36:05.720
But when it comes to the universe, what happens?
00:36:29.720
Everything they do in their day-to-day life is logic, conscience, logic, rationality.
00:36:34.720
But when it comes to the universe, charts, fairy tales, UFOs, aliens, inconsistency.
00:36:43.720
If you're going to be a skeptic, wake up every day and say, you know what?
00:36:57.720
What I'm saying to him is that you can't ask for it.
00:37:03.720
I'm saying that we can't say consciousness is in our brain.
00:37:10.720
Because there's a whole argument of the hard problem of consciousness, yeah?
00:37:40.720
You know someone who has near-death experiences?
00:37:46.720
So these experiences, obviously we can't verify them.
00:37:49.720
But what we can say is if the brain is dead, and they're seeing doctors operating on them...
00:37:57.720
I was asking you directly, because you've used a conscious argument on him.
00:38:00.720
On him, but because he's saying, I want to see...
00:38:04.720
Why don't you have the same standards for your God?
00:38:11.720
I didn't say my consciousness is in another planet.
00:38:19.720
If you don't know, then you don't know who you are.
00:38:23.720
You said you don't know where your consciousness is.
00:38:25.720
You said you don't know where your consciousness is.
00:38:27.720
Yeah, but that doesn't mean I don't know who I am, though.
00:38:49.720
I'm asking you because you use a conscious argument on him.
00:38:59.720
If you can't prove consciousness to someone else.
00:39:02.720
Then what is your verification that you even are conscious being?
00:39:11.720
The only way you can do that is if I make a claim that I know where consciousness is and I have a go at him for not knowing.
00:39:18.720
If I have a go at him to say that he says the consciousness is in the brain and I say to him, no, it's not.
00:39:29.720
You're going to say, Ali, you have no right of questioning him when you don't know yourself.
00:39:34.720
I said the argument of consciousness is because he's asking to see, demonstrate God.
00:39:41.720
But don't you see how that puts you both on the same...
00:39:49.720
Because he can't prove consciousness and you can't prove consciousness.
00:39:57.720
It's the most fundamental part of you is consciousness.
00:40:01.720
The most fundamental part of you is consciousness.
00:40:03.720
If you don't know what it is, okay, or where it is, then everything you are saying is based on something that you don't even know what it is.
00:40:17.720
Right now we're talking about where consciousness is.
00:40:22.720
Okay, so are you saying it's a separate discussion?
00:40:28.720
Because consciousness, I'm saying to him, we believe in things that we can't see.
00:40:33.720
So therefore, don't come and tell me to show me God because you already...
00:40:38.720
What you're asking me is where is consciousness?
00:40:47.720
Don't you find it interesting that you don't know the most fundamental part of yourself?
00:40:53.720
Because the thing is, at the end of the day, where it is doesn't determine who I am.
00:40:59.720
It's not necessarily where, but it's the most fundamental part of yourself.
00:41:06.720
I'm saying, Islamically, we can say that's the soul.
00:41:22.720
So why don't you have the same standards for your God?
00:41:25.720
Because you're saying, you're saying like, okay, so I can't prove consciousness, so...
00:41:36.720
Like I said before, I have made an argument from design.
00:41:47.720
Because you're comparing something which is clearly made by man, by people, to something
00:41:52.720
which we don't know how it came into existence.
00:41:55.720
So therefore, I'm saying as human beings, if we can affirm a designer to something man-made,
00:42:00.720
how could we negate something that is greater than man-made?
00:42:11.720
I don't know is the most honest answer you can give.
00:42:15.720
If that's the case, do the same thing with everything in your life.
00:42:21.720
Maybe my toast machine is not my toast machine.
00:42:28.720
Anyway, thank you for your time to compare this time.