Ali Dawah - October 18, 2022


3 ATHEISTS SQUARE UP TO MUSLIM & END UP ARGUING EACH OTHER


Episode Stats


Length

31 minutes

Words per minute

215.92249

Word count

6,775

Sentence count

843

Harmful content

Hate speech

8

sentences flagged


Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

In this episode, we discuss the argument from contingency and where it came from. Do you agree with the argument? Do you disagree with it? What does it mean and where does it go from here? What are your thoughts on it?

Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
00:00:00.000 I've done the seven-day free trial of the Qur'anly app and it exceeded all my expectations.
00:00:04.220 Alhamdulillah, I was worried that it was an overrated product.
00:00:07.420 That's why he fought until he tried it.
00:00:09.020 Prophet's assistant, you can build a habit with the Qur'an by seven-day free trial.
00:00:13.140 There's no credit card details required at all.
00:00:15.140 Download it and see what time it is.
00:00:20.100 All that happened was he misconstrued his arguments.
00:00:22.280 He didn't get them correct.
00:00:23.260 My argument was from the argument from contingency.
00:00:26.920 Can I ask you a question?
00:00:29.300 I just want to clarify a few things.
00:00:31.580 I don't really delve into philosophy.
00:00:36.120 Not too much.
00:00:37.100 I even discourage some people to.
00:00:39.680 However, the contingency argument, I use it in the form even Tameer used it.
00:00:42.500 So I do it to affirm God Almighty and I then use it to affirm his attributes.
00:00:47.720 So my argument is from the argument from contingency.
00:00:50.160 Do you know it? Do you want me to break it down?
00:00:51.500 Okay, so it's very simple.
00:00:52.920 We have three kinds of possibilities.
00:00:54.680 We have possible existence.
00:00:56.880 We have necessary existence.
00:00:58.300 And we have impossible existence.
00:00:59.900 The impossible existence is that you have a triangle square or a triangle circle.
00:01:05.760 Do we accept that that's an impossibility?
00:01:07.500 Yes.
00:01:08.200 Okay, so we are left with two possibles.
00:01:10.000 Okay.
00:01:10.400 Which is contingent possibility and necessary existence.
00:01:17.120 Okay, so those two are the area that I'm going to focus on, yeah?
00:01:22.700 Okay.
00:01:23.240 Now, do you accept that there are contingent things within our universe?
00:01:27.720 Okay, no.
00:01:28.200 Before we start this, where do you think contingency comes from?
00:01:31.840 The idea?
00:01:33.020 Where do you think?
00:01:33.520 Because it didn't come out of nowhere.
00:01:34.480 Where do you think the idea of contingency came from?
00:01:35.960 Okay, so when you say the idea of contingency, obviously I think people use their logic and
00:01:39.800 rationality to come to certain conclusions.
00:01:42.000 For example, that we have things within our universe that is dependent.
00:01:45.040 Okay.
00:01:45.560 So, therefore, if there are things that are dependent, we cannot have an infinite regress
00:01:50.460 of dependent things, which is my second argument.
00:01:52.480 That if there are dependent things, do we accept that there is dependent things?
00:01:55.460 I don't.
00:01:56.180 Because where does the dependency come from?
00:01:57.660 Okay.
00:01:57.840 They're the same place where contingency comes from.
00:01:59.260 I'm just trying to dig into where it comes from.
00:02:01.420 So, you do not believe that there are dependent things within our universe?
00:02:04.060 What is dependency?
00:02:04.960 Okay.
00:02:05.180 Where does the need for dependency come from?
00:02:07.040 Something that relies on something else for its own existence.
00:02:09.700 So, it sounds eerily like 14th century arguments proposed by Barak Spinoza, which were
00:02:14.640 over 600 years ago.
00:02:16.180 That's fine.
00:02:16.660 Yeah.
00:02:17.040 Whoever brought the argument, we are dealing with the argument, not who brought it.
00:02:21.360 No, no.
00:02:21.580 So, very simply, do you accept that for your existence you require other things?
00:02:26.280 Yeah, but that's got nothing to do with it.
00:02:27.680 So, you're dependent?
00:02:29.000 I'm dependent in the physical sense, not in the moral sense.
00:02:31.540 But what you're proposing is the moral sense.
00:02:33.360 No, no, I'm not.
00:02:33.980 Yes, because contingency is inherently a moral argument.
00:02:36.760 No, no, no.
00:02:37.060 I'm using the argument for contingency to prove that there's a higher power, which is
00:02:39.740 the necessary being that gave rise to us.
00:02:41.700 So, I'm not using it from the moral sense.
00:02:42.940 What I'm saying is, do you accept that you are dependent on other factors to your survival?
00:02:47.260 Yeah.
00:02:47.400 May I paraphrase this?
00:02:49.140 So, you're essentially saying that there is a chain of dependency.
00:02:53.540 So, you rely on other attributes.
00:02:55.860 And that makes you a dependent being.
00:02:57.540 You depend on other things for your continued existence.
00:03:00.560 And this chain of dependency will last forever unless there is a necessary being.
00:03:06.060 At some point, it has to change.
00:03:08.120 And it has to be caused by God.
00:03:09.280 But this is my issue with the argument.
00:03:11.680 So, a necessary being, how do we define this as a thing that does not depend on any other
00:03:16.740 attributes?
00:03:17.640 Yes.
00:03:17.940 But God...
00:03:18.260 No, no, no.
00:03:18.880 I never said that.
00:03:19.460 Okay.
00:03:20.080 You said that.
00:03:20.420 But I'm saying that it does not rely on any other things to depend on for its continued
00:03:26.120 existence.
00:03:26.800 A necessary being is not dependent.
00:03:28.680 It's not contingent on anything else.
00:03:30.480 It's not contingent.
00:03:31.600 Yes, it's necessary.
00:03:33.060 It's necessary.
00:03:33.780 It's self-sufficient.
00:03:34.600 Yes.
00:03:34.840 And it cannot be any other way.
00:03:36.000 Okay.
00:03:36.400 But why?
00:03:37.020 Where's...
00:03:37.420 And it's not composed of pieces.
00:03:38.320 And this is my thing.
00:03:40.000 But surely God is composed of pieces.
00:03:42.740 No.
00:03:42.940 He has certain attributes.
00:03:44.160 No, yes.
00:03:44.820 All loving, all caring.
00:03:46.140 If you would like to believe in such a deity, then you need to accept that God does depend
00:03:51.460 on certain attributes and can be divided conceptually into different...
00:03:56.120 When has his attributes became other than himself?
00:03:58.640 This is where I'm talking about the contingent argument that you're using and what I'm using.
00:04:02.460 I'm making it very clear.
00:04:03.340 Before we even come to that, yeah?
00:04:05.100 I believe his attributes are an essence.
00:04:06.800 It's his essence.
00:04:07.900 It's himself.
00:04:08.900 I don't divide it and go, the most merciful.
00:04:11.080 Oh, we have another necessary being.
00:04:12.260 I don't want to say that at all.
00:04:12.880 You've said that.
00:04:13.680 So just to make something clear before we come to that.
00:04:15.700 Do you accept there are, like we said, there are dependent things within our universe?
00:04:19.480 Yes.
00:04:19.940 Okay.
00:04:20.740 Now, do you accept that we cannot have an infinite regress of dependent things?
00:04:24.700 I would accept that.
00:04:25.780 The issue, the issue...
00:04:26.840 If that's the case...
00:04:27.740 Okay, who am I talking to?
00:04:28.580 Why couldn't the universe simply be?
00:04:30.660 This is a virtual Russell's argument, which I think is fantastic.
00:04:32.840 Yes, it's called a brute fact.
00:04:34.740 Exactly.
00:04:35.240 But that's just...
00:04:36.260 The universe simply is.
00:04:36.880 But that's just running away from the problem.
00:04:38.220 All you're saying is...
00:04:38.920 It's not, because...
00:04:39.640 If I said...
00:04:40.380 Why does it need a cause?
00:04:41.280 Why does the universe need a cause?
00:04:42.360 Where does the idea of dependency come from?
00:04:44.540 Okay, one second.
00:04:45.120 If I said, God exists and that is a brute fact, and it is, you will laugh at me.
00:04:49.600 You say to me, what's a prophetic argument?
00:04:51.160 There's no evidence.
00:04:51.400 No, there is evidence.
00:04:52.280 But what I'm saying is, what you're proposing to me is, the universe just is, it's a brute
00:04:56.880 fact.
00:04:57.340 Close the chapter.
00:04:58.160 No, no, no.
00:04:58.760 That's not what I said, actually.
00:04:59.600 Well, the reason I would say that is, because the bottom is raising, you want to go for the
00:05:04.180 simplest explanation with the least assumptions.
00:05:06.340 And God is an assumption to explain the universe.
00:05:08.220 It's not an assumption.
00:05:08.760 And where does God come from?
00:05:09.940 Okay, this is what I'm saying.
00:05:10.960 Okay, this is my argument.
00:05:11.860 So, let me repeat again.
00:05:13.040 There are dependent things within our universe.
00:05:14.960 There cannot be an infinite regress of dependent things.
00:05:17.780 Therefore, we require a necessary being who is self-sufficient, who is not composed of pieces,
00:05:22.700 and cannot be any other way.
00:05:24.180 So, if you rise to the dependent things within our universe...
00:05:26.420 Yeah.
00:05:26.500 Now, do you accept, is the universe dependent or independent?
00:05:29.720 Independent.
00:05:30.460 Independent.
00:05:31.160 Now, what you've done, which is good, which is something that we agree on, you accept
00:05:35.200 an independent being.
00:05:37.780 But you've ascribed it...
00:05:38.960 No, okay.
00:05:39.340 You accept independence, you've ascribed it to the universe.
00:05:43.500 So, we are on the same page.
00:05:44.660 Now, what we say is this.
00:05:45.660 That's good.
00:05:46.400 Now, you've accepted the necessary thing.
00:05:49.000 All you've done is, you've said, it's not God, it's the universe.
00:05:51.800 Now, is the universe...
00:05:53.100 I'm asking the question.
00:05:53.720 Is the universe composed of pieces?
00:05:56.500 Yes.
00:05:56.800 Then it cannot be necessary.
00:05:58.380 It is dependent.
00:05:59.580 No, okay, but this is...
00:06:00.740 Wait, wait, wait, wait.
00:06:01.960 These are all assumptions.
00:06:04.240 That's the fallacy of compensation.
00:06:04.940 These are all assumptions.
00:06:05.900 But this is an assumption.
00:06:07.140 It depends on different attributes.
00:06:09.460 The universe is...
00:06:10.500 Wait, wait, wait.
00:06:11.340 Wait, wait, wait.
00:06:12.000 I'm not talking about...
00:06:12.920 Sorry, your argument actually has a fallacy of compensation, because you said, look,
00:06:16.440 the universe is composed of pieces.
00:06:18.300 All of these pieces have causes.
00:06:19.720 Therefore, the universe must have a cause.
00:06:21.100 But you're looking at the parts to make an assertion about the whole.
00:06:24.120 But even if you talk about the fallacy of composition, you're saying that because the
00:06:27.120 wall is made out of small pieces, it doesn't mean the wall is small.
00:06:30.180 But what if the wall is red?
00:06:31.500 So I'm not even using the argument from composition, because that's the argument from Kalam Cosmological
00:06:35.780 Argument.
00:06:36.300 I'm using the argument from contingency.
00:06:37.540 I don't say nothing about composition.
00:06:38.460 I'm saying, again, I repeat, you said the universe is necessary.
00:06:43.160 I said, well, that's good, because now we agree that we require necessary being.
00:06:46.800 No, listen.
00:06:47.360 All you've done is you've ascribed it to the universe.
00:06:49.420 I said, one second.
00:06:50.760 I said, is the universe composed of pieces?
00:06:53.960 You said, yes.
00:06:55.060 If it's composed of pieces, it cannot be necessary.
00:06:57.560 If it's not necessary, it is dependent.
00:06:59.300 If it is dependent...
00:07:00.100 The problem is, the problem is, if it is dependent, what is it dependent on?
00:07:04.840 Did you understand?
00:07:05.440 Yes, I get that completely.
00:07:06.720 But the problem is, is that all of these assertions are inherently grounded within an understanding
00:07:10.260 of the world that is inherently Islamic and is inherently religious.
00:07:13.380 It's religious.
00:07:14.040 I'm not talking about Islam. 0.97
00:07:14.560 No, no, no.
00:07:15.040 But yes, yes.
00:07:15.840 But where your arguments come from, historically, actually, I'm telling you, I'm telling you
00:07:20.080 exactly where they come from.
00:07:21.100 Ibn Sina.
00:07:22.080 Ibn Sina, when was Ibn Sina alive?
00:07:24.620 In the Islamic Golden Age. 1.00
00:07:25.880 The Islamic Golden Age, 800, 800 years ago, 900 years ago. 0.98
00:07:28.880 No, time has come.
00:07:30.020 Yes, yes.
00:07:30.300 But listen, listen, listen.
00:07:32.000 Time has come.
00:07:33.200 Humanity has gone through a phase of development throughout time.
00:07:36.040 These arguments that you're telling me now are arguments that, you know, like, people
00:07:41.480 that were professionals in logic.
00:07:43.740 Logistic.
00:07:44.200 Yeah.
00:07:44.500 Logistic.
00:07:44.920 And they proposed them because they didn't have scientific understandings to explain the
00:07:49.300 world.
00:07:49.520 So they needed to explain the world, which suited the Christian, the religious, the Islamic,
00:07:53.960 the Jew, like, yeah, their interpretation of the world. 0.99
00:07:58.620 And that logic was employed with that purpose because there was no other, there was no,
00:08:03.580 science was shunned.
00:08:04.460 Okay, that's fine.
00:08:04.960 Science was shunned.
00:08:05.680 And logic was the only answer.
00:08:07.320 This is exactly what you're telling me.
00:08:08.520 That's fine.
00:08:08.540 Let's say I go with that.
00:08:09.640 Yeah.
00:08:09.760 How does that describe my argument?
00:08:11.040 Because ultimately it exists in a framework that has now, we now have a better explanation.
00:08:17.100 So what's a better explanation?
00:08:18.160 Science.
00:08:18.980 So what science can do with anything?
00:08:20.540 So, for example, the universe is composed of space and time.
00:08:25.000 And if I cause this brothel to drop, the space in which it drops and the time from when 0.97
00:08:31.720 I put my hand on and it falls, this is the universe.
00:08:34.860 Outside the universe, this idea of cause and effect and something having to come into existence.
00:08:39.920 We don't even know how the universe functions.
00:08:41.720 Our rational framework collapses outside this reality, which is ultimately bound up in the
00:08:49.320 universe.
00:08:49.920 So this is a great mystery.
00:08:51.840 But the logical assumptions that you're employing.
00:08:53.920 Because I think the mystery, and I accept that my rational faculties cannot comprehend the
00:09:01.780 reality outside the one we're immediately observing.
00:09:04.920 And I think, and I think to say the universe, it depends on something.
00:09:09.900 It depends on, it's the, yes, it doesn't necessarily.
00:09:15.860 How does that disprove my argument?
00:09:18.240 Because you're saying.
00:09:19.280 But you give me a history lesson.
00:09:20.440 You've told me about the recent scientific experience.
00:09:22.620 That's understandable.
00:09:23.460 How does that disprove my argument?
00:09:25.640 Because it's inherently archaic.
00:09:27.260 Okay.
00:09:27.660 So you're saying that the universe is composed of different things.
00:09:38.200 No, it's not.
00:09:39.020 No, no, it's not.
00:09:39.980 I'm sorry.
00:09:40.700 Guys, guys, please.
00:09:41.340 So this is a very important point I need to ask you.
00:09:44.460 Okay.
00:09:44.740 So you're saying that the universe is dependent.
00:09:48.260 It's a contingent entity.
00:09:50.240 Yes.
00:09:50.540 Because it depends on lots of things within it.
00:09:53.560 Do you accept that he said the universe is independent?
00:09:55.940 Do you accept that?
00:09:56.460 I'm independent of what?
00:09:58.380 No, no, no, no, no.
00:09:59.240 It's just independent.
00:10:00.260 It's independent.
00:10:00.720 In what regards?
00:10:01.980 No, it's just independent.
00:10:02.900 It's self-sufficient.
00:10:03.540 Do you accept that?
00:10:04.120 It does not rely on anything for its continued existence.
00:10:08.080 I do, yes.
00:10:09.040 Okay, good.
00:10:09.460 So you do and you do.
00:10:10.400 Do you?
00:10:11.120 Yes.
00:10:11.680 Okay, good.
00:10:12.320 So you guys, the great honorable gentlemen here are all in sync.
00:10:16.460 You all believe that.
00:10:17.140 The question I'm asking is the following.
00:10:18.940 Please listen carefully.
00:10:20.380 If the universe is independent, means it is necessary.
00:10:23.760 Firstly, that means we both accept that we require a necessary being.
00:10:28.540 Where does necessity come from?
00:10:29.600 No, one second, one second.
00:10:30.920 The fact that there is dependent things, you require something that's necessary to give rise to it.
00:10:34.160 Now, I'm asking you a question.
00:10:36.260 Is the universe composed of pieces?
00:10:39.220 Or can the universe be any other way?
00:10:42.220 How do we know that?
00:10:43.120 For example, we have galaxies within our universe.
00:10:45.900 If there were four less galaxies, is that still the same universe?
00:10:48.980 No.
00:10:49.460 Okay.
00:10:49.900 But there are probably galaxies blowing up and destroying the rise we're talking.
00:10:52.580 So that means the universe can be any other way.
00:10:54.600 And the universe is composed of pieces.
00:10:56.300 That means it cannot be necessary.
00:10:57.800 It is dependent.
00:10:58.720 Now, listen carefully.
00:10:59.880 If it is dependent, what does it depend on?
00:11:03.860 I'm saying it's not dependent.
00:11:05.160 You've made a jump.
00:11:05.340 You've made an assumption.
00:11:06.360 You've made these jumps and assumptions.
00:11:07.720 What I'm saying is you're looking at the pieces and you're saying, look, they have cause and effect.
00:11:10.780 I never said cause and effect.
00:11:11.820 I never mentioned cause and effect.
00:11:12.620 But you're dependent.
00:11:13.400 You're saying it belongs to a chain, an unbroken chain of dependence.
00:11:19.300 Dependent.
00:11:19.820 I didn't say cause and effect.
00:11:20.840 Forgive me.
00:11:21.340 Your exact words is dependent on something else.
00:11:23.660 Yes.
00:11:23.820 It relies on something else.
00:11:24.960 For example, let me give you an example.
00:11:26.520 I'm sorry.
00:11:26.900 Let me give you an example.
00:11:27.860 A mother can give birth to the child. 0.99
00:11:30.040 It caused the child.
00:11:31.140 But the child doesn't necessarily depend on the mother for its survival.
00:11:34.140 Yeah.
00:11:34.360 So know the difference.
00:11:35.280 I'm not using the Kalam cosmological argument.
00:11:36.640 I'm using the argument from contingency.
00:11:38.420 Yes.
00:11:38.680 Yes.
00:11:38.840 So I'm repeating again.
00:11:39.880 You guys said, I said, what did we say in the beginning?
00:11:42.020 Necessary and contingent.
00:11:43.620 We got rid of the impossible existence.
00:11:45.400 So now what you guys said is the universe is independent and necessary.
00:11:48.940 I said, okay, let's go with that.
00:11:51.060 However, you're saying that I'm jumping the gun.
00:11:53.380 How am I when I'm saying you guys said the universe is independent and necessary?
00:11:57.220 I don't, I never said necessity.
00:11:58.480 I've listened to that.
00:11:59.480 Necessity.
00:12:00.020 Necessity is two different things.
00:12:01.120 Okay.
00:12:01.220 Okay.
00:12:01.400 No problem.
00:12:01.740 If it's independent, then I said to you, one of my arguments was what?
00:12:04.900 If it can be any other way, and if it's composed of pieces, it cannot be independent.
00:12:10.440 It is dependent.
00:12:11.640 If it's dependent, what is it dependent on?
00:12:13.980 And what do the pieces have to do?
00:12:15.400 Listen carefully.
00:12:16.320 What is it dependent on?
00:12:17.980 It's a simple question.
00:12:18.440 No, this is my answer, that inherently it being composed of pieces, you know, how do you visualize pieces?
00:12:24.360 How do you visualize?
00:12:24.980 How do you visualize?
00:12:25.540 Look, look, look.
00:12:25.980 No, no, no.
00:12:26.340 I'm asking you a question.
00:12:27.020 Something that is composed of, like I said.
00:12:28.580 Yes, exactly.
00:12:29.140 But what are pieces in the universe sense?
00:12:30.760 Look, for example, look, we are a piece of the universe.
00:12:32.500 Yes, yeah, we are.
00:12:33.020 Okay.
00:12:33.320 So what I'm saying is if I cease to exist.
00:12:35.120 Yeah.
00:12:35.480 Okay.
00:12:35.740 That means the universe can be any other way.
00:12:37.900 I don't need to.
00:12:38.320 That could be any other way.
00:12:39.340 So, therefore, it shows its dependency.
00:12:41.780 No, because what it does show is that we have a certain logic in humanity.
00:12:45.960 We have a certain logic on Earth, and certain things work differently than they do in the universe.
00:12:50.780 I don't have a problem with that.
00:12:51.640 No, no, no, no.
00:12:52.340 But it's two different frameworks.
00:12:54.700 But that's the problem.
00:12:55.060 Look, guys, guys, guys, it's very simple.
00:12:57.140 You've accepted an independent thing, and he's called it the universe.
00:12:59.620 I'm saying, okay, I'm with you guys.
00:13:01.840 I'm on your team.
00:13:02.540 But I'm saying the universe can be any other way.
00:13:05.480 We said yes.
00:13:06.760 We said, is it composed of pieces?
00:13:08.420 We said yes.
00:13:09.400 That is not my definition of an independent being.
00:13:12.500 Right.
00:13:12.680 So what I'm saying is how can it be independent and necessary when you have given the attributes
00:13:17.280 of a dependent thing?
00:13:18.760 No.
00:13:18.940 Simple.
00:13:19.120 What I'm saying, it needs to be necessary to prevent this cause, this regression.
00:13:25.540 No, no, no.
00:13:25.960 If it's necessary, then it doesn't.
00:13:27.980 Look, if it's necessary, then why is it composed of pieces?
00:13:31.160 Why is it composed of pieces?
00:13:31.720 The very idea of necessity is a moral one.
00:13:34.300 Moral morality.
00:13:35.160 Morality brings about necessity.
00:13:36.860 No, I'm not talking about morality.
00:13:37.560 Yes, yes, but what is necessity?
00:13:39.320 That's the question I started our debate with.
00:13:41.240 What is necessity?
00:13:41.660 I told you.
00:13:42.000 Something that's necessary.
00:13:43.580 Listen.
00:13:44.660 It's necessary, self-sufficient, cannot be any other way, and it's not composed of pieces.
00:13:49.180 Okay.
00:13:49.680 That's my definition of a necessary being.
00:13:51.960 Why can't the universe be self-sufficient?
00:13:53.240 Thank you, but that's what I'm saying.
00:13:54.360 Thank you.
00:13:54.700 I'm saying it cannot be self-sufficient because of the following.
00:13:58.640 It is composed of pieces.
00:14:00.640 Yes, number one.
00:14:01.320 But why does that pull this out?
00:14:03.360 Of course, because it shows that it's dependent.
00:14:05.140 It could be any other way.
00:14:06.320 Because you're only looking at the pieces.
00:14:07.820 It's a fallacy of competition.
00:14:08.200 My friend, is there galaxies within our universe?
00:14:09.700 Yes.
00:14:10.060 Yes.
00:14:10.180 If we have five less galaxies, what happens?
00:14:12.820 No, same.
00:14:13.520 It's a different universe.
00:14:14.280 No, not really, though, because galaxies blow up and explode.
00:14:16.780 Still, still, still.
00:14:17.700 Okay.
00:14:18.060 Okay, okay.
00:14:19.120 I have your argument.
00:14:20.720 I understand.
00:14:21.160 Energy, for example.
00:14:22.380 But how does that accommodate the fact that the universe is expanding?
00:14:24.620 What's the second law of thermodynamics?
00:14:25.760 There's no energy.
00:14:28.940 No.
00:14:29.640 No, no.
00:14:30.340 The energy can't be created or destroyed.
00:14:32.980 Okay, okay.
00:14:33.940 Or the universe goes towards...
00:14:36.520 Energy cannot be created or destroyed in a closed system.
00:14:39.020 Yes.
00:14:39.720 Okay.
00:14:40.340 But it's an open system.
00:14:41.340 Okay.
00:14:41.700 No, no, no.
00:14:42.000 What I'm saying is this, yeah.
00:14:43.200 Is there a set amount of energy within our universe?
00:14:45.400 No, it's expanding.
00:14:46.520 This is my point.
00:14:47.740 I'm not sure.
00:14:48.020 But at one point, if you reverse it, that's where the Big Bang Theory comes from.
00:14:50.780 If you reverse it, they go to a singular point.
00:14:53.080 If there is a set amount of energy within our universe, it is dependent on something else.
00:14:57.520 If.
00:14:58.260 If.
00:14:58.800 But there isn't.
00:14:59.380 It's now being proved.
00:15:00.180 Is it infinite?
00:15:01.020 Infinite.
00:15:01.520 Because the universe is expanding.
00:15:02.640 No, no, no.
00:15:02.880 You said infinite.
00:15:03.480 Can you prove infinite to me?
00:15:04.880 The universe is expanding.
00:15:06.100 No, no.
00:15:06.780 Expanding is not infinite.
00:15:08.720 Expansion.
00:15:09.080 The truth is these concepts break down outside the universe.
00:15:11.940 Infinite cannot go up or down.
00:15:13.800 If I say I have an infinite amount of biryanis and I eat two biryanis, how many biryanis do I have?
00:15:18.020 Still infinite.
00:15:18.720 No.
00:15:19.260 It's infinite minus two, which is an impossibility.
00:15:21.140 There is no such thing.
00:15:22.080 The concept of infinity doesn't exist in the real world.
00:15:24.040 Yes.
00:15:24.440 There is potential infinite, but again, infinite.
00:15:27.000 So now, if you're saying infinite is not in the real world.
00:15:27.880 It's my point.
00:15:28.420 It doesn't exist in our world.
00:15:29.400 Okay.
00:15:29.800 No, no.
00:15:30.020 One second.
00:15:30.660 Our world is the only world I'm talking about, yeah?
00:15:32.660 In our universe.
00:15:33.660 If there is no infinite, then that shows that it is finite.
00:15:37.300 If it's finite, it requires something else outside itself for its existence, which shows its dependency.
00:15:42.980 Yes, yes.
00:15:43.520 I understand exactly.
00:15:44.620 I understand exactly.
00:15:45.500 But that logic is very good.
00:15:47.200 No, no, no.
00:15:49.020 That logic is very good when it's finite.
00:15:50.740 At least he's honest.
00:15:51.620 He's honest.
00:15:52.300 I'm saying the logical scaffolding you're using to craft your argument exists.
00:15:57.900 It's, you're right, but within the universe, within time and space, and this idea of dependency
00:16:04.240 in cause, outside.
00:16:05.500 And I'm talking about cause.
00:16:07.100 Yes, but I was, okay, yes, dependency.
00:16:09.520 But outside this logical framework, these concepts simply, they just simply collapse.
00:16:14.900 All I'm saying.
00:16:15.600 No, no, no, no, listen.
00:16:16.760 But you're saying collapse, but you're not bringing it to collapse.
00:16:17.920 Ali.
00:16:18.400 But he at least said.
00:16:19.200 He at least said.
00:16:20.380 Ali.
00:16:20.520 No, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll tell you my, can I tell you my view.
00:16:23.180 Yeah.
00:16:23.820 Can I tell you my view.
00:16:24.480 So, the way I perceive.
00:16:25.620 First, but before that, you didn't accept that it's a good view.
00:16:27.560 No, no, but all I want to say is my view.
00:16:29.440 I admire you honestly.
00:16:30.300 Yeah, all I want to say is my view that where the, where do the ideas of necessity, all
00:16:35.520 of this contingency, where they come from, they come from, they come from a need to unify
00:16:40.540 a people.
00:16:41.560 Where does, where does Islam come from?
00:16:43.140 Where did, where did Christianity come from?
00:16:44.820 Where did Judaism come from?
00:16:46.080 It came from the idea of repressed tribes, repressed people within a, within a former,
00:16:51.100 within a bigger empire that needed something to stand behind.
00:16:53.780 Needed something.
00:16:54.560 Yes, yes, yes.
00:16:55.280 No, I'm just telling you my view.
00:16:56.240 Okay, okay.
00:16:56.580 And from which these, your other views come from.
00:16:58.660 Because then, then you come to the point where, okay, let's say you're, you know,
00:17:02.720 1,500 years ago when Muhammad, you know, when Muhammad came about and he, he, he, like, 0.74
00:17:08.220 he, like, you know, united the Arab people, united these tribes and created this huge Islamic
00:17:13.700 empire, destroyed two empires while doing it and created this force.
00:17:17.800 Not the empires, they were trying to destroy them, yeah.
00:17:19.100 Yeah, yeah, but he destroyed them.
00:17:21.420 But then, yes, yes, but as a coherent entity.
00:17:23.920 Yeah, of course.
00:17:24.260 He came in and destroyed them, yeah.
00:17:26.240 So that's the point.
00:17:26.800 But how else do you unify a people?
00:17:29.120 How do you unify a people?
00:17:29.960 No, no, I understand, but you...
00:17:30.800 Yes, but then, but then you get to the question, okay, use Islam.
00:17:34.060 Islam is there.
00:17:34.580 I'm not even talking about Islam.
00:17:35.300 No, no, no, no, no.
00:17:35.780 I didn't mention Islam yet.
00:17:36.380 Yes, I'm not, I'm not.
00:17:37.220 This is what I'm just telling you, my, my perspective on where your views come from.
00:17:40.340 Yeah.
00:17:40.660 So that, and then you come to the situation where you don't have the science to describe,
00:17:45.020 to explain the universe.
00:17:45.860 You don't have, you don't have a way, you don't have a physical, technological way of understanding
00:17:50.060 what the universe is.
00:17:51.140 What do you employ?
00:17:51.860 You employ logic that is inherently grounded to our perception of the world within planet
00:17:56.720 Earth.
00:17:57.240 That's fine.
00:17:57.540 Without understanding what's going out out there.
00:17:59.400 No, but that's fine.
00:17:59.800 You use uniformity, irregularity, and certain things to do science.
00:18:03.180 Necessity.
00:18:03.640 My friend, look, but I...
00:18:04.120 Your friend, my friend, necessity.
00:18:05.680 No, no, no, no, that's fine, but you've got, you've given me a kind of a history lesson
00:18:09.160 slash moral.
00:18:10.200 I'm not even talking about that yet.
00:18:11.280 Look, I know this pen, with this, do you wake up and this pen explodes?
00:18:16.040 Have you ever seen, like...
00:18:17.100 No.
00:18:17.400 No, because there's uniformity and there's regularity, yes?
00:18:20.000 Okay.
00:18:20.380 So we know we can do science.
00:18:21.720 If that didn't happen, we can never do science.
00:18:24.040 That's why we look at quantum mechanics and we talk about the double-slip experiment, yet
00:18:28.500 there are things that happen in which we're like, whoa, that, you know, that doesn't make
00:18:31.420 sense to us.
00:18:32.040 So we use our rationality, irregularity, uniformity to do science.
00:18:36.900 I'm giving you guys an argument.
00:18:38.480 Yeah.
00:18:39.060 It's inherently moral.
00:18:39.840 No, no, no.
00:18:40.400 Look, I'm not using a moral argument.
00:18:42.920 It can be inherently moral, but I'm saying that, very simply, I've made an argument.
00:18:47.280 You guys haven't given me anything to disprove it.
00:18:50.320 I just want to come and say to me, no, Ali, the universe is necessary and independent because
00:18:54.440 of A, B, and C.
00:18:55.080 Ali, I don't know where we're...
00:18:56.440 No.
00:18:57.040 What are your...
00:18:57.660 What's the ultimate issue here?
00:18:59.600 You're saying that the universe needs something to...
00:19:03.260 A necessary being that gave rise to it.
00:19:05.780 Yeah.
00:19:06.140 Then I can come and talk to you about its attributes.
00:19:07.560 And you're defining a necessary being...
00:19:10.620 Yes.
00:19:10.980 ...as something that doesn't, isn't composed of parts...
00:19:14.040 This is...
00:19:14.760 Again, again...
00:19:16.100 It cannot be any other way.
00:19:17.380 Yes.
00:19:18.080 And is independent.
00:19:19.340 Independent.
00:19:19.900 Self-sufficient.
00:19:20.560 Self-sufficient.
00:19:21.180 No, I get that, but where does it...
00:19:22.320 And I'm saying, I'm saying that under these, your terms and your definition and the definitional
00:19:27.580 structure that we're using to construct the arguments on, under the definitions that we
00:19:32.940 have agreed, you are accurate in your assertion that the universe is composed of parts.
00:19:39.600 Yes.
00:19:40.080 But what Alexei is ultimately saying is that this argument is archaic and does not reflect
00:19:45.920 the reality that the universe could have been, could have been, is not necessary, not
00:19:51.500 necessarily necessary.
00:19:52.620 Because, no, because necessity, this is my point.
00:19:54.740 Then why do you say this is necessary by saying no?
00:19:56.000 No, it's my point.
00:19:56.820 Necessity is a construction.
00:19:58.080 Sorry.
00:19:58.480 Yeah.
00:19:58.640 The universe isn't contingent.
00:20:03.200 It doesn't necessarily have to be contingent on something else.
00:20:06.480 No, it has to.
00:20:07.020 That's why I gave you my evidence.
00:20:07.880 I'm saying, under your definition, yes, that's true.
00:20:10.500 So you accept it?
00:20:11.160 I'm saying, under the definition that we have agreed upon...
00:20:13.860 No, no, no, stop.
00:20:14.880 No, no, no.
00:20:15.200 This is not the ultimate point, because, yes, the universe is composed of certain attributes.
00:20:22.720 Look, let me ask you a question.
00:20:23.180 This is true.
00:20:24.380 So it immediately prevents it from being a necessary being.
00:20:27.220 Thank you.
00:20:27.500 If we're going to disagree, then we have to disagree on the definition.
00:20:30.620 Thank you.
00:20:30.920 But I'm saying that this definition is ultimately irrelevant because the universe could
00:20:35.880 conceivably have been caused from nothing, and it could, but not cause...
00:20:40.580 I'm not talking about causation, yes.
00:20:42.240 From nothing?
00:20:42.660 Where does the idea of necessity come from?
00:20:44.180 As I just demonstrated with this model, you need time and space in which you need stuff
00:20:49.940 to occur.
00:20:50.180 You said, did you say that the universe can be composed of nothing?
00:20:52.740 No, I'm not composed of nothing.
00:20:54.680 I'm saying that I simply don't...
00:20:55.980 No, you said it can be.
00:20:57.260 I'm saying under the logical framework...
00:20:59.180 That's illogical.
00:21:00.040 Why are you just saying it's illogical?
00:21:00.900 I'm saying under our logical framework...
00:21:03.000 That is illogical.
00:21:03.300 ...that we use to comprehend our perceptions of the natural world...
00:21:07.240 Yes.
00:21:07.580 ...then it seems inconceivable something can come out of nothing.
00:21:10.580 Exactly.
00:21:10.960 But this is still...
00:21:12.300 It's not an impossibility.
00:21:13.800 That is, it is.
00:21:14.120 You listed the three different things, but this is not an impossibility.
00:21:18.720 It is.
00:21:19.080 Because outside of our logical framework, outside of the universe, it could be conceivable...
00:21:24.760 No, it cannot be.
00:21:25.160 What are you talking about?
00:21:26.020 ...that the process by which chemical reactions take place could be totally different.
00:21:30.980 No, Ali...
00:21:31.460 That's fine, but what are you...
00:21:32.380 This is...
00:21:32.780 I think this is more likely than positing a deity, and this is where we ultimately disagree.
00:21:38.100 You are going...
00:21:39.180 On the matter of probability now.
00:21:40.980 What I'm saying is this, yeah?
00:21:42.040 On the matter of probability.
00:21:42.480 Look, Strabo, listen carefully, yeah?
00:21:43.740 I use the argument from contingency.
00:21:45.760 Until now, you guys have not touched upon number one.
00:21:48.680 Now you are ascertain that...
00:21:50.540 Look at this.
00:21:51.440 Can it be God?
00:21:52.440 No way.
00:21:53.400 Can it be nothing?
00:21:54.460 Maybe.
00:21:55.160 That is preposterous.
00:21:56.240 No way.
00:21:56.500 Let me tell you...
00:21:56.760 Let me finish.
00:21:57.200 I'll listen to you.
00:21:57.720 Let me finish.
00:21:58.700 What is nothing?
00:22:00.040 The absence of something.
00:22:01.820 If I go to my math teacher and say, zero can equal one, he'll give me a backhand and
00:22:05.920 make me fly back to the classroom.
00:22:07.880 Of course.
00:22:08.260 You are now inserting the most preposterous position, which is, it can come from nothing.
00:22:13.300 Can it be God?
00:22:14.080 No way.
00:22:15.060 Can it be nothing?
00:22:15.720 Yes.
00:22:16.120 Maybe you have some support from scholarship.
00:22:17.380 Exactly.
00:22:17.840 No.
00:22:18.040 You have any scholarship supports that you can get nothing from...
00:22:19.960 All I would...
00:22:20.720 I would simply ask you the same question about the necessary being.
00:22:24.380 I did.
00:22:24.840 I did.
00:22:25.220 You're positing.
00:22:26.020 Where did that come from as well?
00:22:26.920 Okay, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good.
00:22:28.860 Okay, let's stop now.
00:22:29.500 Let's stop now.
00:22:30.220 First of all, we agree that you ascribe the necessary being to the universe.
00:22:34.680 We showed you guys that the universe is composed by pieces, can be any other way, so we realize
00:22:40.540 that it's dependent.
00:22:41.500 Then we said, what is it dependent on?
00:22:43.200 A necessary being that is independent, it is not composed by pieces, and it cannot be
00:22:47.460 any other way.
00:22:48.240 Now, that is my argument, and you guys haven't said anything.
00:22:51.340 Now, do you accept that now a necessary being is required for the universe to...
00:22:56.780 Let me ask you a question first.
00:22:58.080 Wait, wait, wait.
00:22:58.840 Wait, no, no, no, because you have not answered my first question that I...
00:23:01.860 Do you accept that?
00:23:02.440 No, no, no, let me ask you a question that I began this debate with.
00:23:05.260 What is...
00:23:06.100 Okay, no, no, no, your definition of necessity, your definition of necessity is very carefully
00:23:11.240 crafted according to your...
00:23:12.640 Of course, yeah, it has to be.
00:23:13.060 No, according to your own interpretation of the world.
00:23:16.360 Yes.
00:23:16.460 But if you look at what is necessity, why do humans need something, like, necessary?
00:23:21.340 Where does it really come from?
00:23:22.740 No, no, it's not about where it comes from.
00:23:23.840 Yes, it does.
00:23:24.320 I have formulated an argument...
00:23:25.920 Yeah, you have.
00:23:26.360 ...that you guys told now, I think it's been about 50...
00:23:28.180 Let me finish.
00:23:29.100 It's been about 15 to 20 minutes.
00:23:30.580 Yeah.
00:23:30.960 I have not heard...
00:23:32.020 No, because you're not answering my question.
00:23:34.160 I have not heard one counter-argument towards you.
00:23:37.080 I can give you...
00:23:37.560 You gave me an example about the Islamic history.
00:23:39.960 You said to me about nothing...
00:23:41.600 No, I just asked you where...
00:23:43.420 You said something they had to go at you.
00:23:45.400 Yeah.
00:23:46.500 Honestly, I do.
00:23:47.480 Show him.
00:23:48.480 Show him.
00:23:48.960 Guys, I'll answer the question again.
00:23:51.600 Here's my...
00:23:52.020 Please tell me.
00:23:52.520 Okay.
00:23:53.580 You guys said the universe is independent.
00:23:56.480 Yeah.
00:23:56.960 Good.
00:23:57.780 Then I said the universe cannot be independent because it is composed of pieces and it cannot
00:24:02.200 be any other way.
00:24:02.580 Yes, yes, yes.
00:24:02.700 This is my problem.
00:24:03.280 One second.
00:24:03.660 Let me finish, guys.
00:24:04.220 Let me finish.
00:24:04.960 Then we acknowledge that the universe is actually dependent, not independent.
00:24:08.200 I reject your definition.
00:24:09.260 One second.
00:24:10.040 Robert, one second.
00:24:11.480 Then I said, then what is the universe dependent on?
00:24:15.540 And you guys haven't given me an answer.
00:24:16.420 No, because this is my point.
00:24:17.740 I'm asking again, what is the universe dependent on?
00:24:19.180 No, because listen, the point is dependency.
00:24:22.260 Dependency is a moral argument, like I said at the beginning.
00:24:24.720 What was my definition at the beginning?
00:24:25.880 Yes, your definition.
00:24:26.820 I don't agree with that definition.
00:24:28.580 Yes, but that's your definition, Ali.
00:24:30.780 That's your definition, Ali.
00:24:32.240 No, no, no, I'm telling you, I'm asking you a question.
00:24:35.240 I'm asking you a question.
00:24:36.120 No, no, this is the point.
00:24:38.200 With due respect, if it disappears, I don't care.
00:24:40.640 No, no, no, Ali, Ali, Ali, Ali, my point is necessity.
00:24:45.260 The idea of necessity, I disagree upon that.
00:24:47.280 Because that is absolutely, because necessity is inherently a moral trait.
00:24:51.040 No, it's irrelevant.
00:24:52.280 No, it's not irrelevant.
00:24:53.560 Tell me what's wrong with it, necessary.
00:24:55.480 Necessity, it comes out of humanity's, yes, yes.
00:24:58.380 No, no, listen, listen, listen, let me talk.
00:25:00.780 Necessity comes out of humanity's need to understand, to understand itself.
00:25:04.680 It doesn't, this idea that you connect parts and pieces of parts to necessity, that has
00:25:09.660 nothing to do with it.
00:25:10.900 The universe can be the any way it can be.
00:25:12.880 The universe is not connected to human logic.
00:25:14.700 It's not connected to necessity.
00:25:15.940 It's not connected.
00:25:16.740 These are two different things.
00:25:17.660 That's my point.
00:25:18.220 Does science not use regularity and uniformity to do studies?
00:25:21.280 Yes, of course it does.
00:25:21.740 So now, hold on a second.
00:25:23.120 Uniformity and regularity have nothing to do with pieces of the universe.
00:25:25.420 In order for you to do studies, you need to know that when I use a pen for an experiment,
00:25:29.700 it doesn't bloody explode.
00:25:30.840 Yes.
00:25:31.000 There's uniformity and regularity.
00:25:32.320 Yes, yes, yes, there is.
00:25:32.760 Otherwise, you can never do science.
00:25:34.040 But you never know that in a second.
00:25:35.380 No, one second.
00:25:36.080 We use our logic and certain laws that are in place to do science.
00:25:40.140 I'm giving you guys a logical argument, and you're here telling me, no, we reject your
00:25:45.180 definition.
00:25:45.800 On what basis?
00:25:46.820 Oh, we just do.
00:25:47.740 No, I didn't say that.
00:25:48.680 No, I said it on a very good basis.
00:25:49.800 On a moral basis, I reject your argument.
00:25:51.320 Ask my question.
00:25:52.300 What does the universe depend on?
00:25:54.080 Nothing.
00:25:54.340 Because the universe, you don't need a dependency.
00:25:57.200 When I'm ready to speak, I mean, it doesn't need to be a very important part.
00:26:01.280 We need to clarify a very important point.
00:26:03.740 You said the universe doesn't depend on anything, and you are the same person who said the universe
00:26:10.040 is independent.
00:26:10.860 Yeah.
00:26:11.620 But what is your definition of independence?
00:26:13.420 Listen to what, what's your name?
00:26:14.340 Alexei.
00:26:14.800 What is your definition of independence, my friend?
00:26:16.160 Alexei, listen to me.
00:26:17.000 Yeah, Alexei.
00:26:18.020 If he was Alexis, I would say, Alexis, listen, yeah?
00:26:20.420 Listen to me.
00:26:20.960 You're saying the universe is independent.
00:26:22.940 Now that I've proved it's independent, you're saying, what's it, what's it, what's it?
00:26:27.200 Please hear me out.
00:26:27.800 Okay, okay.
00:26:28.520 Listen to learn.
00:26:29.780 No, listen to reply.
00:26:30.840 You said the universe is independent.
00:26:32.820 I proved that it's dependent.
00:26:34.820 Now when I say what's dependent on you, you've got nothing.
00:26:36.680 But you didn't prove it.
00:26:37.280 How did you prove it?
00:26:38.140 You proved it was dependent according to your understanding of what dependency is, which
00:26:41.540 I'm telling you is inherently immoral, and it comes out of your religious beliefs.
00:26:44.800 Is the universe composed of pieces?
00:26:47.140 That does not define it.
00:26:48.700 Yes, it is.
00:26:49.620 Okay, can it be any other way?
00:26:51.280 It probably can.
00:26:52.460 Okay, that's dependent.
00:26:53.800 How is that dependent, though?
00:26:55.120 What's that dependent on?
00:26:56.460 What's it dependent on?
00:26:57.740 Yeah, but what is it dependent on, my friend?
00:26:59.000 Okay, no, no, exactly.
00:27:01.320 This is good.
00:27:01.800 This is good.
00:27:02.180 You've talked.
00:27:02.660 Now we can talk properly.
00:27:04.260 The idea is dependent on, it's inherently moral, and it's based in humanity's wanting
00:27:09.700 to understand something that it can't perceive.
00:27:11.980 How do we perceive the universe?
00:27:13.300 You talk about galaxies.
00:27:14.520 You talk about...
00:27:15.180 Huh?
00:27:17.180 Yes, but what is necessity?
00:27:18.780 I can ask a simple question.
00:27:22.960 But what is necessity?
00:27:25.220 Can we just make this point?
00:27:26.760 By the same standard, so you're saying the universe...
00:27:29.440 Struggle.
00:27:29.860 You even said it can come from nothing.
00:27:31.740 Oh, God, see.
00:27:32.460 And I'm thinking...
00:27:32.960 You even said...
00:27:33.280 I would ask you the same question about positing a deity, which you haven't answered yet.
00:27:37.520 Struggle, here me out.
00:27:37.900 You said to me...
00:27:38.640 Why is that unreasonable when it comes to a deity?
00:27:40.900 It's by the universe.
00:27:42.320 You even said it can come from nothing.
00:27:44.280 But you're thinking about this necessary deity.
00:27:48.020 You're saying that can come from nothing.
00:27:49.380 Yes, but what is necessity, my friend?
00:27:51.200 I've given my definitions.
00:27:52.620 I've given my definitions for a contingent thing.
00:27:55.200 I'll give you my definition for a necessary being.
00:27:57.180 Okay.
00:27:57.500 You have not answered me still, right?
00:27:58.720 Okay, this is the point.
00:27:59.900 We want to avoid it.
00:28:01.380 The ball is in your court.
00:28:03.020 Yes, the ball is in our court.
00:28:04.540 We want to avoid it.
00:28:05.940 We want to avoid it.
00:28:07.940 It is a moral argument.
00:28:09.280 Because this is my point.
00:28:10.640 Where does...
00:28:10.920 We want to avoid...
00:28:12.140 Look, come on.
00:28:12.640 I want to say what's going on to do that.
00:28:13.920 I want to do my final closing statement.
00:28:16.140 You do it.
00:28:16.480 We want to move on with the brothers, yeah?
00:28:17.620 Yeah.
00:28:17.900 Okay.
00:28:18.420 I've answered a simple question.
00:28:19.440 My argument was very simple, yeah?
00:28:20.640 Okay.
00:28:21.240 There are dependent things within our universe.
00:28:23.100 There is independent things.
00:28:25.100 Yeah.
00:28:25.220 Okay.
00:28:25.680 So I said dependency is something that can be any other way.
00:28:28.680 It's composed of pieces and requires something else for its own existence.
00:28:31.420 Yes.
00:28:31.960 Then my dear friend said that...
00:28:33.600 I said, is the universe dependent or independent?
00:28:35.600 He said, independent.
00:28:36.780 Then I said to him, it cannot be independent because it's composed of pieces and it can be
00:28:40.320 any other way.
00:28:41.060 So we acknowledge that it's dependent.
00:28:42.960 No, no, no, no.
00:28:44.620 No, no, no, no.
00:28:45.420 That's not...
00:28:45.680 I'll close the statement.
00:28:46.460 You guys can make it.
00:28:46.900 Okay, okay.
00:28:47.420 So, and then I said to them, since we agreed it's dependent, what does it depend on?
00:28:51.720 He said, maybe from nothing.
00:28:53.360 He said, it depends on nothing.
00:28:56.400 So my argument is very simple.
00:28:58.080 The atheists are terrified to say it can be God. 0.96
00:29:03.060 It can be nothing.
00:29:04.000 It can't be relied on anything.
00:29:04.940 It can be infinite.
00:29:05.500 But it cannot be God.
00:29:06.860 That's my closing statement.
00:29:07.920 You guys made a decision.
00:29:08.560 Okay, okay.
00:29:09.460 Fantastic, fantastic.
00:29:10.220 May I say, may I say, it's a pleasure, it's a pleasure debating.
00:29:15.100 It's a pleasure, it's a pleasure, it's a pleasure.
00:29:16.340 Thank you very much.
00:29:17.460 We're going to carry on.
00:29:18.120 Just close from this down to it.
00:29:19.480 It's a matter of probability.
00:29:22.040 On one hand, the universe comes from nothing, but you still haven't asked me where it is
00:29:26.660 necessary in days.
00:29:27.980 Strouble, strouble, strouble.
00:29:28.780 Closing statement.
00:29:29.340 Closing statement.
00:29:29.720 I'm about to finish.
00:29:31.440 And I would say that, I would say this last thing.
00:29:33.560 I would say this last thing.
00:29:34.040 No, that's what Allah says in the Quran.
00:29:35.120 It has to be one word.
00:29:35.900 Otherwise, there'll be chaos.
00:29:36.840 Okay, well, there's one.
00:29:38.160 No, no, no.
00:29:38.820 Listen, listen, listen.
00:29:39.480 My statement, my response to Ali is that necessity is an inherently, it's a moral construction.
00:29:45.800 Because where does the idea of necessity come from?
00:29:47.680 Where does it, where do you really, like when you wake up every day, when you think about
00:29:51.820 God, why do you think about God?
00:29:54.180 Why do you, because you believe it's necessary to your own existence.
00:29:57.140 That, what Ali's done is now, is now zoomed out and imposed out on the whole universe and
00:30:02.140 then put his own definition of what dependency is, which I don't agree with, I don't think
00:30:05.880 dependency consists of us.
00:30:06.880 I think dependency is one of the things which you listed, which is the third thing, which
00:30:11.620 is it has to depend upon something, which is what he said.
00:30:14.280 That is the one thing I agree about.
00:30:15.920 This is why I said it's not dependent, it's independent.
00:30:18.440 It's got nothing to do with our understanding of logic, with our understanding of morality,
00:30:22.420 with our understanding of necessity.
00:30:23.280 Because we're using our values, we're using our understanding of how to live our lives,
00:30:28.140 and imposing that upon a system that's inherently, can only be understood through science, through
00:30:32.560 physics, through these subjects which have nothing to do with necessity.
00:30:36.440 He's got to push in.
00:30:37.040 The big bang has nothing to do with the system.
00:30:39.060 He's got to do with our table.
00:30:39.980 Okay.
00:30:40.920 He wants to do this.
00:30:41.940 Are you trying to make a specific statement?
00:30:44.600 Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:30:44.980 Let me stop and then you guys come.
00:30:45.880 I believe that the argument that the universe is dependable comes from the fact that you
00:30:53.160 look at the pieces and you say, well, this is dependent on something else, therefore
00:30:57.560 the entire universe must be dependent on something else, which is the fallacy of composition,
00:31:01.640 which is a fallacious argument, which I reject.
00:31:04.020 Which I didn't use, by the way.
00:31:04.800 I must have misunderstood your argument.
00:31:06.280 I did not use that.
00:31:06.900 No, no, no.
00:31:07.200 It inherently depends on the logical argument.
00:31:08.820 Dependencies, dependencies.
00:31:09.680 Forgive me, we will have to...
00:31:10.540 Okay, guys, close the statement, quickly, quickly.
00:31:12.360 Close the statement, are you finished?
00:31:13.000 That was it, yes.
00:31:13.820 Okay, that's it, guys.
00:31:14.520 Ali, thank you.
00:31:15.440 I'm not coming, but my dear friends here would like to carry on the discussion.
00:31:18.160 Yes, yes, thank you, Ali.
00:31:19.300 Ali, I'll be back next week.
00:31:21.040 No, no, no, stay, stay.
00:31:21.800 We're going to have a discussion.
00:31:22.100 No, no, no, I mean...