Ali Dawah - AGNOSTIC FINDS EVIDENCE FOR A CREATOR ｜｜ SPEAKERS CORNER

00:00:00.000 Al-Fatihah 0.55

00:00:30.000 What reason do you think you have to come to the conclusion of maybe there is, like what brings you that doubt where you say...

00:00:38.080 I think I can't give an honest answer to the fact that everything is created and there could be a creator to, you know, the starting point basically.

00:00:49.240 So I don't have a very good answer to it, so that's why I think there might be a creator, hence...

00:00:54.840 Okay, if we, if we, if the doc, if we help you understand that, would you be...

00:00:59.640 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:01:00.620 Okay, let's use basic simple reasoning, yeah, simple reasoning, like for example, if you went home and you found a plate smashed on the floor, would you ever come to the conclusion when you walk home, would you think the plate jumped and smashed itself?

00:01:15.700 What would be the first basic reasoning you come to, like when you see the plate smashed?

00:01:20.500 There's somebody in the center.

00:01:21.660 Somebody tipped it over.

00:01:23.060 Simple basic reasoning, yeah?

00:01:24.460 So what we say is, let's use the same simple basic reasoning with something that is more complex than a plate being smashed on the floor.

00:01:31.480 Like for example, let me give you another example.

00:01:34.860 If I had a piece of paper in my hand, tissue, yeah, scrambled tissue, yeah, and I had an iPad in my hand, yeah, which one would you say is more slightly designed?

00:01:44.480 Which one is, which one would you go for?

00:01:45.820 I think both are designed with the iPad, I would say, yeah.

00:01:47.680 Yeah, thank you.

00:01:48.360 You say, okay, both are designed, but you go more for the iPad, right?

00:01:51.840 Yeah.

00:01:52.260 So this is, this is what we're, we're, we're saying.

00:01:54.820 It's that using basic simple reasoning, you come to that simple conclusion, just as you see the plate smashed on the floor.

00:02:00.000 So if I say to you, let's use the iPad and the universe, which one would you say is most likely designed?

00:02:09.060 Yeah, from that, yeah, I would say universe is, obviously, it's more complex.

00:02:13.980 Yeah, it's more complex.

00:02:15.160 Yeah.

00:02:17.460 Because most of the things, what you're saying is, most of the things are actually created, hence we can assign a creator to it.

00:02:24.300 Anything which is not created, so life, life, so, yeah.

00:02:30.000 So I would say, life, how could you say life is not created?

00:02:34.020 So that's what, it's something we don't know about, because we haven't seen somebody creating life.

00:02:38.960 Okay, all right, good point.

00:02:40.320 Have you seen the person who created this iPad?

00:02:44.060 No, I haven't seen it, well, it's PSM, out of the videos.

00:02:47.020 Yeah, and I'm just trying to make you understand.

00:02:48.080 By the way, by the way, you know we're discussing, yeah?

00:02:50.320 I don't, I don't want to seem like I'm trying to make an argument.

00:02:52.660 I just genuinely want you to understand my point.

00:02:54.720 If I'm wrong, say Ali, look there, you didn't make sense, yeah?

00:02:56.700 So, like, forgive me, if you want, we can speak in private.

00:02:59.380 No, I don't want to.

00:03:00.380 If you want, because the thing is, you know when we're here, and there's people watching.

00:03:03.600 I don't want you.

00:03:03.980 Okay, yeah, I just want you to understand, and I'm sure you're sincere, yeah?

00:03:06.600 So, the reason why I ask is, because you can say to me, Ali, I can go to the factory and see the one who made this.

00:03:12.800 But the point here is, did you go and see it?

00:03:14.820 No, you didn't.

00:03:15.520 No.

00:03:15.700 And the fact that you didn't, and you don't have to, like, I don't think you have to go to the factory to say, you know what, let me go double check.

00:03:21.600 Correct.

00:03:21.820 Did this iPad come in this, or, you come to that basic conclusion, do you get what I'm trying to say?

00:03:26.120 Now, we've asked.

00:03:27.540 At least somebody has seen it.

00:03:28.900 Somebody has seen it.

00:03:29.680 Okay, okay.

00:03:29.740 But, just because we do not see the person who created it, or the creator created the universe, that does not mean there is not a creator.

00:03:38.580 For example, let me give you an example, yeah?

00:03:41.000 Can you see love?

00:03:45.700 We can't see love.

00:03:47.080 But, we say it exists.

00:03:49.220 Yeah?

00:03:49.740 Can you see my consciousness?

00:03:52.040 My mind.

00:03:52.520 Can you see my mind?

00:03:53.440 Yeah.

00:03:53.760 Yeah.

00:03:54.100 So, would it be right for you to say, Ali, you have no mind?

00:03:56.480 Yeah.

00:03:57.600 Do you get what I'm trying to say?

00:03:58.320 So, sometimes...

00:03:58.660 But these are some concepts which are, I mean, you can't see as of...

00:04:02.860 But they exist, yeah?

00:04:03.920 Yeah.

00:04:04.180 So, that's the evidence I will give to say, just because you can't see the creator, doesn't mean there's no creator.

00:04:11.160 Yeah, I agree with that.

00:04:11.640 So, do you get what I'm trying to say?

00:04:12.560 So, that's why we say, when the universe is more complex than the iPad, it should have a design and a creator.

00:04:19.780 Because it's a trillion times more complex, yeah?

00:04:22.380 So, even this evolution theory of we evolve, let's suppose, let's take the argument, yeah?

00:04:28.680 Even though there's this apparently missing link, yeah?

00:04:30.420 So, when you go to the first cell, yeah?

00:04:33.820 The first cell, Darwin described it as like, oh, it's just this cell and we evolve.

00:04:38.500 He made it seem like it's the most simplest thing, it is the most complex thing.

00:04:42.380 Today, scientists have found out the way the DNA works, your brain, your mind will stop.

00:04:47.600 It's absolutely, it's crazy.

00:04:49.640 But the question we ask is, where did the first cell come from?

00:04:52.340 Yeah.

00:04:52.700 So, it's really complex.

00:04:54.020 That's something we don't know.

00:04:55.280 Exactly.

00:04:56.000 We don't know, but what we know is that there's information in the DNA.

00:04:59.300 Yes.

00:04:59.480 So, does that information come from knowledge or no knowledge?

00:05:02.540 From knowledge?

00:05:03.800 Where does...

00:05:04.920 Like, where would we say, like, for example, this iPad either came from knowledge or no knowledge?

00:05:10.720 Like, is there anything else I can add in there?

00:05:12.580 Is there a third option?

00:05:14.380 In this particular, because all the examples are actually the examples which human knowledge has created.

00:05:21.560 Anything else which is apart from human knowledge.

00:05:23.780 Okay, what about DNA?

00:05:24.460 DNA was not made by men.

00:05:26.120 So, DNA, one cell, if I'm not mistaken,

00:05:28.800 one part of DNA, I think they said it will fill up how many thousands of libraries?

00:05:33.340 Yeah.

00:05:33.440 Yeah?

00:05:33.540 So, what we're saying is there's knowledge there.

00:05:35.700 Yeah.

00:05:35.800 Science, there's knowledge there, there's information there, yeah?

00:05:38.500 There's information.

00:05:38.920 So, what we say is, you put the information there.

00:05:41.400 It either came from knowledge or no knowledge.

00:05:43.900 Which one would you say?

00:05:44.640 Would you say it came from no knowledge or knowledge?

00:05:47.400 With information in there?

00:05:48.600 I mean, I've got nothing to compare it against.

00:05:53.140 So, as in any living thing, how does knowledge...

00:05:56.380 You can compare it.

00:05:56.960 You can compare it.

00:05:57.620 I think the comparison to a non-living thing like an iPad is a false comparison.

00:06:03.160 So, the comparison to a living thing would be a right one and I don't have any answer

00:06:07.040 because I haven't seen anything, any living thing created by another knowledgeable entity.

00:06:13.480 So, as in life created by a knowledgeable entity like myself, I haven't seen that.

00:06:17.680 So, there's no similar comparison like...

00:06:20.460 But this is created by...

00:06:22.680 This is created, I agree.

00:06:23.600 ...by a person that had a will, had conscious and rationality.

00:06:27.160 He wanted to do this.

00:06:28.620 He's done this, yeah?

00:06:29.760 Yeah.

00:06:30.120 Yeah?

00:06:30.420 So, the universe or the DNA, right?

00:06:33.300 We're just doing the same arguments, yeah?

00:06:35.120 The individual who made this, there was knowledge behind him doing it.

00:06:39.500 Yeah?

00:06:39.860 Yes.

00:06:40.260 He had the will to do it, yeah?

00:06:42.260 Yeah.

00:06:42.420 Okay.

00:06:43.060 So, what we're saying is the universe or the self...

00:06:45.700 I'm just going to make this simple self, which is...

00:06:48.400 We call it simple but it's very complex as well, yeah?

00:06:50.820 There's knowledge behind it because, you know, I was doing a bit of research actually.

00:06:53.840 Let me share some information with you.

00:06:55.300 It might be a bit useful, yeah?

00:06:56.380 Let me show you something.

00:06:59.000 I was doing some information.

00:07:00.140 I can see your point.

00:07:00.860 I mean, logically it makes sense that there should be some knowledge because you're comparing it to something.

00:07:05.860 Yeah, of course.

00:07:06.560 We can see here, yeah.

00:07:07.920 Do you know the way it's done?

00:07:11.120 There's actually...

00:07:12.120 They say there's like machines in the DNA which copy the...

00:07:15.800 You know what I'm trying to say?

00:07:16.560 Yeah.

00:07:16.680 They copy it.

00:07:17.620 RNA, yes.

00:07:18.440 And there's another one called...

00:07:19.560 I can't remember.

00:07:20.280 Something...

00:07:20.600 Yeah, there's also...

00:07:21.380 Yeah, yeah.

00:07:21.660 Yeah.

00:07:22.020 So, the thing is, what we do is when we look at that, using our basic reasoning logic,

00:07:26.260 we need to use the same standard.

00:07:27.880 If I look at a tissue, a mere tissue, yeah?

00:07:30.680 And if I say there has to be a creator or a designer behind it, I have to use the same principle

00:07:36.260 with the universe or anything else that looks designed.

00:07:40.460 But our understanding is very limited.

00:07:43.180 Our...

00:07:43.380 Especially mine.

00:07:44.780 You're right.

00:07:45.460 Our understanding is very limited in terms of how things are created.

00:07:49.460 We don't know...

00:07:50.460 No, no.

00:07:51.320 You're right.

00:07:51.780 Look.

00:07:51.940 We know 0.1% of things, you know, to be honest.

00:07:54.680 So, you can't say that it should definitely be coming from a knowledgeable entity.

00:08:01.200 It's more...

00:08:01.580 Okay.

00:08:02.560 Then...

00:08:03.080 But the thing here is this.

00:08:04.520 You're right.

00:08:05.020 You can't know everything.

00:08:07.140 But the thing is, there should be a universal understanding of certain things.

00:08:10.500 If I showed a tissue to anyone, even this iPad, no one would ever say it came by chance.

00:08:16.740 No one would say it came by nothing.

00:08:18.380 They would say, there is a designer.

00:08:20.680 There is a designer.

00:08:21.700 If you find me one person that will say to a tissue...

00:08:24.200 I'm not even going to use an iPad.

00:08:25.000 I'm going to use the lowest of the low, yeah?

00:08:26.680 Tissue.

00:08:27.320 If anyone comes to me and says, there's no designer behind it, then I'll have to question

00:08:31.940 the intellect.

00:08:32.660 Do you know what I'm trying to say?

00:08:33.240 So, what we're trying to say is, simple reasoning is what we're using.

00:08:40.600 We're not saying, let's understand everything.

00:08:42.420 How does this work?

00:08:43.320 No, no, no.

00:08:43.600 We're saying simple reasoning, yeah?

00:08:45.300 If we use simple reasoning, if a tissue has a designer, which you claim was made by a man,

00:08:49.720 and that man has to have knowledge, has to have a will to do that, right?

00:08:54.020 So, what we're saying is, even though you haven't gone and seen that man, the fact that you came to the conclusion of his design,

00:08:59.920 shows me that the universe, yeah?

00:09:02.860 Universe, we don't need to see the creator to come to the conclusion.

00:09:06.740 What we do is, we look at the by-product.

00:09:08.360 We look at...

00:09:08.780 With simple reasoning, yes.

00:09:09.840 Simple reasoning, yeah?

00:09:10.620 So, I'm just saying, using that simple reasoning, can you not say, there has to be a creator?

00:09:16.080 Like, I'll give you one other example, yeah?

00:09:17.320 We know there was a beginning for the universe.

00:09:20.200 Like, everything that begins to exist has a cause, yeah?

00:09:23.840 Okay.

00:09:24.480 We have three options.

00:09:25.480 Like, meaning, everything that begins to exist, there must be a cause.

00:09:29.180 If the plate dropped, something dropped it.

00:09:31.540 So, what we see is, there's three options, yeah?

00:09:33.820 Or four options, yeah?

00:09:35.440 It's either...

00:09:36.640 Either the universe came from nothing, yeah?

00:09:40.400 It either created itself.

00:09:42.960 It either was created, yeah?

00:09:45.560 I'll use that three options for now, yeah?

00:09:47.860 Can something come from nothing?

00:09:49.200 Can you give me an example of something coming from nothing?

00:09:52.740 At the moment, yeah, I mean, no.

00:09:54.760 You wouldn't, yeah?

00:09:55.220 So, we can say, from nothing, nothing comes.

00:09:57.200 Because nothing is the absence of something, yeah?

00:09:59.800 If you have nothing, nothing comes.

00:10:01.740 Can we say it created itself?

00:10:05.120 Because for it to create itself, it has to exist and not exist at the same time.

00:10:10.800 It's like saying, my mother gave birth to herself.

00:10:13.020 It's impossible, it's oxymoron.

00:10:14.260 It has to be there and not be there at the same time.

00:10:16.220 The only conclusion that we have, it was created.

00:10:21.040 Now, you can say, you know what?

00:10:23.540 Okay, it's creative, but who is the creator, yeah?

00:10:26.560 Do you get what I'm trying to say?

00:10:27.480 With those simple reasoning and understanding,

00:10:29.900 wouldn't you say, there has to be a creator?

00:10:32.000 Because if you're not denying the tissue,

00:10:33.760 how are we denying the universe?

00:10:35.780 Do you get what I'm trying to say?

00:10:36.840 Yeah.

00:10:37.460 Yeah?

00:10:37.700 So, what we're just trying to say is that, look, yeah?

00:10:40.620 There has to be a designer, there has to be a creator.

00:10:42.220 Like, for example, this pattern, yeah?

00:10:45.220 It's not even a pattern, right?

00:10:46.040 To remove before flight, yeah?

00:10:47.340 I don't fly, yeah?

00:10:48.660 But it...

00:10:49.320 How are you doing, Mohammed?

00:10:50.980 This is my...

00:10:51.300 Even better.

00:10:52.500 Yeah?

00:10:52.680 You see this pattern here, brother, yeah?

00:10:53.940 Ow. 0.99

00:10:54.140 Would you ever think, trillions of years,

00:10:58.100 this will come by chance?

00:11:01.000 By chance.

00:11:02.000 Trillions, trillions, give it...

00:11:03.600 Trillions of years.

00:11:04.360 Put it in the basket, shove it.

00:11:05.700 You put it there and there's no...

00:11:06.920 Like, there's nothing there, yeah?

00:11:09.820 Would this ever pop into existence?

00:11:11.680 Like...

00:11:12.000 It wouldn't.

00:11:13.920 What about the animal?

00:11:14.660 You know the animal, fear cock?

00:11:15.920 Yeah.

00:11:16.080 You know it pales?

00:11:17.340 Yeah, it's got eyes, so...

00:11:18.200 Don't look me out.

00:11:19.980 Yeah? 0.98

00:11:21.140 The fear cock, it has a pattern, yeah?

00:11:22.640 So, what we're saying is, 0.50

00:11:24.120 let's use the same reason.

00:11:25.800 If this can't come by chance,

00:11:27.920 how do we look at an animal,

00:11:29.240 and you know there's birds with red, green,

00:11:30.880 all these different colours.

00:11:32.280 How did that pattern come to be?

00:11:35.360 But, you know the patterns on animals,

00:11:38.720 and the skin pattern and everything,

00:11:40.840 when you say they can't come by chance,

00:11:42.740 they are coming by natural processes, are they not?

00:11:46.860 I mean, there are plenty of documentaries

00:11:49.100 around how these patterns have actually developed

00:11:51.060 because of the, just the pure physics

00:11:53.320 of the, you know, the ions on the skin

00:11:56.320 and the colours, how they produce these patterns.

00:11:58.600 Yeah.

00:11:59.140 It's purely by the physical, natural processes.

00:12:03.020 Okay.

00:12:03.340 Okay.

00:12:03.980 If you say, somebody says,

00:12:05.240 oh no, these patterns have been,

00:12:06.340 these patterns have been put down on these animals

00:12:10.480 so that they are camouflaged or, you know,

00:12:13.740 in certain, yeah, but what would you do?

00:12:16.020 Because there could be two, two sort of ways

00:12:18.540 you can, you can sort of explain.

00:12:22.060 I'm trying to say, brother, I understand,

00:12:23.100 but what you're doing is this, yeah?

00:12:24.400 I'm giving you the tools, yeah?

00:12:27.400 You're making something with those tools,

00:12:29.200 and then people are coming and clapping you.

00:12:31.580 You know what's happening?

00:12:32.720 The person that's giving the money, yeah?

00:12:35.080 And the people are saying thank you to the money.

00:12:37.980 They're forgetting the one who gave the money.

00:12:40.000 Who, if we, I think I established by reasoning,

00:12:43.780 there is a creator.

00:12:44.860 If that creator has created the DNA,

00:12:47.260 those, what you call natural, yeah?

00:12:49.920 We don't call it natural,

00:12:51.140 because if you mean, for example,

00:12:52.760 evolution of the peck of a bird, yeah?

00:12:55.400 For example, we accept that in Islam,

00:12:57.660 as evolution happens,

00:12:58.500 birds turn to different birds, et cetera.

00:13:00.680 But what we need to do is,

00:13:01.980 we can't take the credit of the creator,

00:13:04.480 because the creator is the one who's given you

00:13:06.320 that for it to happen.

00:13:08.120 Put in the processes.

00:13:08.880 No, the processes are there.

00:13:10.160 So we can't come and say,

00:13:10.840 hey, you know, this happened,

00:13:11.960 but we're like, okay, good.

00:13:13.000 We can't go to a plane and be like,

00:13:14.300 well, look at this plane,

00:13:15.440 look how we made,

00:13:16.100 we have to go to the individual that made it.

00:13:18.420 So the example that you're given,

00:13:19.780 the natural processes, yeah?

00:13:21.180 What we see is,

00:13:21.980 that is controlled by the one who created it, yeah?

00:13:24.440 So it's not like...

00:13:25.200 So it's all about the origin of everything, isn't it?

00:13:27.460 Yes, yes.

00:13:27.900 The origin of the processes,

00:13:28.660 the origin of everything.

00:13:29.680 Exactly, yes.

00:13:29.700 Exactly, that's what we're trying to pay for.

00:13:31.120 And the current understanding,

00:13:32.540 if we don't know about the origins of this world,

00:13:35.880 the life forms,

00:13:36.900 we don't know about how life came into being

00:13:39.860 and how the universe came into being.

00:13:41.440 We know about after it,

00:13:43.120 what happened to it.

00:13:43.920 So the evolutionary process and the Big Bang,

00:13:46.740 they're both after the instant of creation.

00:13:49.820 What happened to you,

00:13:50.940 who created it,

00:13:52.560 those are the things which are,

00:13:53.860 we still have gaps in our knowledge.

00:13:55.660 Okay, okay.

00:13:56.260 We have gaps in our knowledge,

00:13:57.660 but with basic reasoning,

00:13:59.040 we can't deny that there's a creator because...

00:14:01.880 With the logic you said, yes.

00:14:03.280 Yeah, we can't deny it

00:14:04.160 because the thing is,

00:14:04.920 we understand, okay,

00:14:06.040 how did it start?

00:14:07.540 Like, in which way did it start?

00:14:09.100 We don't know.

00:14:10.120 What we know is there was a creator

00:14:11.940 that had to start it.

00:14:13.820 There is no other option.

00:14:14.980 If you can give me evidence

00:14:16.140 that it can't be the creator,

00:14:17.720 if you give me an example,

00:14:18.560 like I gave you the tissue and the thing,

00:14:20.080 the universe,

00:14:21.060 that there was a beginning,

00:14:21.720 then I would accept it.

00:14:22.580 But if not,

00:14:23.880 then if you can't deny a simple tissue,

00:14:26.620 how are we denying the universe?

00:14:27.880 You get it?

00:14:28.320 We need to use the same standards.

00:14:30.180 And if we use the same standards,

00:14:31.400 we have no choice

00:14:32.360 but to say there has to be a creator.

00:14:34.480 There has to be.

00:14:35.160 Give me another...

00:14:35.960 If you think I'm wrong...

00:14:37.500 No, no, as I said,

00:14:38.400 I mean, we currently don't know about

00:14:39.940 the creation aspect of anything

00:14:42.280 apart from the things

00:14:43.520 which we have manufactured.

00:14:44.720 We don't know anything about...

00:14:46.000 Well, there are theories.

00:14:47.140 There are theories,

00:14:48.060 but there are consensus.

00:14:50.340 So if you want to jump in,

00:14:51.780 I'm fine.

00:14:52.580 Yeah, scientists can tell us

00:14:55.700 how things work,

00:14:57.160 how it works,

00:14:58.220 but it can never tell us

00:14:59.160 why it works like that.

00:15:00.220 Okay, I'll try to...

00:15:00.920 Do you know what I'm trying to say?

00:15:01.940 So, do you understand, Tim?

00:15:03.240 Yeah.

00:15:03.600 But have you read the Quran before, bro?

00:15:05.480 I have.

00:15:06.260 Yeah?

00:15:06.920 English version.

00:15:07.760 English version, yeah?

00:15:08.500 So what I'm saying is, bro,

00:15:09.420 I think there's very strong premise.

00:15:10.600 I'm going to come straight to you.

00:15:11.460 There's very strong premise

00:15:12.320 is to believe that there's a creator.

00:15:13.920 Because if there's not a creator,

00:15:15.140 then we have to reject everything.

00:15:16.980 Like the tissue, the socks.

00:15:18.200 The socks I wear have a purpose.

00:15:20.800 It has...

00:15:21.280 It's designed.

00:15:22.840 I'm more complex.

00:15:23.960 Do I have no purpose?

00:15:25.120 Do you know what I'm trying to say?

00:15:25.920 Think about that, though.

00:15:27.980 Before you ask that,

00:15:29.600 I said to you,

00:15:30.460 start the conversation,

00:15:31.960 that I do...

00:15:33.280 I think I can't go against that logic

00:15:36.160 what you've explained.

00:15:37.140 And that is why I kind of believe

00:15:40.200 that there could be a creator.

00:15:41.340 Okay, you know what...

00:15:41.880 There could be a creator...

00:15:42.520 Not could.

00:15:43.040 With the gap of the current understanding

00:15:45.620 and the knowledge,

00:15:46.720 I could...

00:15:48.160 I still have to leave some space

00:15:49.920 for the future understanding

00:15:51.500 to fill that space

00:15:52.520 if in case there's a better alternative.

00:15:54.480 Okay.

00:15:54.820 At the moment, yes,

00:15:56.020 there's no other better alternative

00:15:57.220 in my understanding.

00:15:58.060 Okay.

00:15:58.120 Yes, then brother,

00:15:59.840 you should not...

00:16:00.420 I respect that.

00:16:01.140 Thank you for it, honestly.

00:16:02.080 But you shouldn't say

00:16:03.640 there could be.

00:16:05.120 Maybe there is.

00:16:06.080 Because you should say...

00:16:07.640 More convinced that there is a creator...

00:16:09.760 There is a creator,

00:16:10.840 but I don't know

00:16:12.040 who that creator is.

00:16:13.820 Then you have valid.

00:16:14.460 You can say,

00:16:14.780 there is a higher being,

00:16:16.280 but I don't know who he is.

00:16:17.200 Then it's more valid.

00:16:17.880 Yeah, I agree with that.

00:16:19.300 I really appreciate it.

00:16:20.280 Thank you very much.

00:16:20.760 Thank you.

Ali Dawah - December 14, 2016

AGNOSTIC FINDS EVIDENCE FOR A CREATOR ｜｜ SPEAKERS CORNER

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