Ali Dawah - ARE HOMOSEXUALITY & INCEST THE SAME？｜｜ SPEAKERS CORNER

00:00:00.000 I want to ask you for a straightforward question.

00:00:30.000 So, first of all, let me tell you something before I ask you something.

00:00:35.780 There's a maxim in the Quran, yeah, which says,

00:00:38.420 So, a soul is not given more than what it can handle, yeah?

00:00:45.200 Yeah.

00:00:46.940 So, if someone has a feeling of homosexuality, yeah, so I'm saying like if a Muslim, he feels 0.92

00:00:52.540 like, oh, attracted or sexually attracted to the same gender, yeah, as Muslims, we say

00:00:59.040 at that point is not sinful.

00:01:01.780 Because based on that maxim, do you see how that works?

00:01:04.300 Sorry, what was the maxim in English?

00:01:05.600 So, the thought of being gay is not sinful.

00:01:08.460 So, basically, if you're, look, if any human being like yourself or whatever, yeah, if

00:01:13.420 you feel physically attracted, it's basically a soul is not, or a human being, a self is

00:01:20.560 not given more than it can handle in terms of ability.

00:01:24.820 So, if you can't control yourself and it's just something that's within you, yeah, and

00:01:28.540 you're feeling like, oh, you know, I'm attracted to the same gender, yeah?

00:01:31.580 Sometimes you can't necessarily like, you know, control that.

00:01:33.760 You see what I mean?

00:01:34.260 Yeah.

00:01:35.180 So, if that's the case, you're not sinful for feeling like that.

00:01:39.120 Yeah.

00:01:39.500 Because Islam doesn't hold you to account for how you feel. 0.99

00:01:42.260 You see what I mean?

00:01:42.940 Yeah.

00:01:43.360 But let me be clear as well, yeah?

00:01:44.680 Because I don't want to sugarcoat everything and lie.

00:01:46.380 I want to also be honest with you, yeah?

00:01:47.880 Yeah.

00:01:48.240 Islam, when it comes to homosexuality, it forbids homosexuality in a sexual sense.

00:01:57.700 Yeah.

00:01:58.060 Yeah?

00:01:58.540 So, what I mean to say, when I say that, is that, say for example, a man wants to say 0.94

00:02:02.980 I want to have sex with another man. 0.94

00:02:04.180 Yeah. 1.00

00:02:05.600 Okay?

00:02:06.480 So, we would say that's morally not a right thing to do.

00:02:08.780 It's not a good thing to do.

00:02:09.760 Yeah.

00:02:10.340 Do you see what I'm saying?

00:02:11.360 Now, if he feels good when he sees a man, all right? 0.86

00:02:14.140 So, morally, it's a wrong thing for a human being to do. 0.97

00:02:17.700 To have sex with another man. 0.96

00:02:19.360 Do you see what I mean? 0.99

00:02:20.020 And according to the Quran.

00:02:23.160 According to Islam and Quran, yeah.

00:02:25.260 Now, the reason why I would say, I think this is the argument now.

00:02:29.240 Like, in the West, they say, look, man, that's okay.

00:02:31.160 You can have that belief.

00:02:31.840 That's fine.

00:02:33.160 But, and you'll probably agree with this, yeah?

00:02:35.680 You say, we believe, in the West here, that so long as you're not harming anyone else,

00:02:40.260 you can do everyone.

00:02:41.960 Would you agree with that, Maxim?

00:02:44.860 Yes, I guess so.

00:02:45.820 Well, no, no, yeah.

00:02:49.000 As long as you're not harming.

00:02:49.660 As long as you're not harming anyone else, you can do whatever you want.

00:02:52.360 Well, you have to...

00:02:53.800 John Stuart Mill, that.

00:02:54.620 Huh?

00:02:54.900 John Stuart Mill.

00:02:55.900 Yeah, John Stuart Mill is an English philosopher, and he talks about the harm principle.

00:02:59.200 On liberty, the harm principle.

00:03:00.520 Yeah, yeah.

00:03:00.980 You guys done politics or something?

00:03:02.280 What did you do?

00:03:02.840 I did a few students, right?

00:03:04.300 Politics, philosophy, and economics.

00:03:05.520 When?

00:03:05.780 What year?

00:03:06.380 Goldsmith.

00:03:06.880 We're going into second year.

00:03:07.920 Are you in second year?

00:03:08.880 Yeah.

00:03:09.200 Trust me, guys, man.

00:03:09.980 I've done it all before as well, man.

00:03:12.260 I've done it all before, man.

00:03:13.380 That's why you guys know what I'm talking about.

00:03:14.840 John Stuart Mill, the harm principle.

00:03:16.440 Yeah.

00:03:16.720 Yeah?

00:03:17.080 Yeah.

00:03:17.280 And he obviously furthered from what Bentham...

00:03:18.720 If you remember, his father was close friends with whom?

00:03:23.160 Bentham.

00:03:23.480 Bentham, yeah?

00:03:23.800 Yeah.

00:03:24.120 And he grew up...

00:03:24.760 Jeremy Bentham was a utilitarianism.

00:03:26.420 Yeah.

00:03:26.660 So he realised that utilitarianism had, like, the issue of the harm.

00:03:30.520 Like, it caused harm.

00:03:31.320 So he put a cap on that, or he kind of refined the theory of utilitarianism with what he called

00:03:36.760 the harm principle.

00:03:37.560 If you remember, like, from your studies, yeah?

00:03:39.780 Do you know what?

00:03:40.340 Let me ask you a question, then, yeah?

00:03:42.340 Test your knowledge.

00:03:43.180 All right.

00:03:43.480 Go on.

00:03:43.700 Test your knowledge.

00:03:44.480 I'm not testing your knowledge.

00:03:45.600 She wrote the essay on that joke.

00:03:47.900 I'm also the bisexual here as well.

00:03:49.480 Are you bisexual as well?

00:03:50.360 All right. 0.69

00:03:50.640 Fine.

00:03:50.940 It's two, yeah?

00:03:52.400 So, okay.

00:03:52.940 Let me ask you a question straight forward, yeah?

00:03:54.360 Do you accept...

00:03:57.360 Do you think...

00:03:59.160 If I said to you, look...

00:04:00.360 All things aside, a mother and a son, they can wear protection, all right?

00:04:07.880 They wear protection and stuff.

00:04:09.380 A mother and a son.

00:04:10.220 Get involved into a sexual relationship.

00:04:12.900 Do you consider that morally acceptable?

00:04:17.260 I...

00:04:18.260 No, I wouldn't, because the mother is an older... 1.00

00:04:25.940 I think age comes into it.

00:04:27.620 I think that the mother is a guardian of the son and is responsible. 0.68

00:04:33.980 Go on.

00:04:34.760 It's the power play between them.

00:04:36.120 So, it's like...

00:04:37.140 I wouldn't think it's okay for a teacher to have...

00:04:39.440 But if they're both consensual...

00:04:41.800 Even if they're both consensual, I wouldn't think it's okay for a teacher to have sex with a pupil,

00:04:45.800 because of the power dynamic that exists between them.

00:04:47.860 The same with a mother and a son.

00:04:48.940 There's a paradigm there.

00:04:50.220 I think...

00:04:50.580 I think if the son...

00:04:51.740 If the son had reached the age of 18, which in England, we agree, there is an age for sexual consent. 0.79

00:05:00.960 And, like, you're an adult now, and you can...

00:05:03.400 Raising your voice just a little bit.

00:05:04.400 Huh?

00:05:04.860 Raising your voice just a little bit.

00:05:06.420 Yeah.

00:05:06.820 If 18 is the age of sexual consent, you can make a decision as an independent adult...

00:05:12.320 Yeah. 0.98

00:05:14.060 You have to have sex with whoever you want. 0.99

00:05:17.560 Therefore, if a mother and an 18-year-old decided to have sex, then I would consider it very strange. 0.96

00:05:28.240 So, you wouldn't accept it?

00:05:29.020 You say it's immoral, yeah?

00:05:31.500 Or a father and a...

00:05:32.740 I'd say a granddad and his granddaughter, but the granddaughter is over the age.

00:05:39.460 So, my issue isn't that they're related, it's the power dynamic that exists between...

00:05:43.700 Okay, I'm with you.

00:05:44.600 I'm listening to your point.

00:05:45.800 I think you've made a good point, actually.

00:05:47.040 Like, it's an interesting point.

00:05:48.540 Because whatever age someone is, there's still going to be power relations between the two individuals.

00:05:53.180 I'm accepting what you're saying now.

00:05:55.320 But what I'm saying is that if we're accepting that the maxim that we're being morally consistent with is the harm principle,

00:06:03.260 the maxim, basically, that you can do whatever you want so long as you don't harm anyone else,

00:06:06.660 then I feel it would be a contradiction of that harm principle if we said,

00:06:12.460 okay, you have one rule for homosexuals and a different rule for those people who practice incest.

00:06:18.000 Because actually... 0.86

00:06:18.440 But are you saying that incest is the same as homosexuality?

00:06:20.440 What I'm saying is...

00:06:21.520 Can I ask you a question?

00:06:22.580 Yeah, go ahead.

00:06:22.900 What would be, in your minds, the difference between incest and homosexuality?

00:06:27.720 Because incest exists in this power dynamic that I explained,

00:06:31.400 that, like, mothers have power over their sons and, like...

00:06:35.180 But the power...

00:06:35.800 And responsibility to...

00:06:36.800 And responsibility to bring them up.

00:06:38.200 So can I tell you something, Keir?

00:06:39.280 Yeah.

00:06:39.860 The things that you've mentioned...

00:06:41.540 And also...

00:06:43.800 But I'm with you.

00:06:44.340 There's no power dynamic, Keir.

00:06:45.060 There's an inherent love and there's an inherent connection...

00:06:48.140 Right.

00:06:48.860 So it's naturalistic.

00:06:49.740 ...due to that relationship.

00:06:51.060 Yeah.

00:06:51.100 Do you think there's a naturalistic element which makes it, like, naturalistically unacceptable?

00:06:54.940 There's a bond in which demands a certain responsibility from the older guardian.

00:07:01.820 Okay, can I tell you something, Keir?

00:07:02.920 I'll be honest with you.

00:07:03.540 Yeah.

00:07:04.040 This power dynamic issue is an issue which is...

00:07:07.780 First of all, sometimes...

00:07:08.840 If you've done philosophy and PPE and stuff, yeah?

00:07:11.600 So I can tell you that you've got...

00:07:13.880 I remember doing this when I was in uni as well, yeah?

00:07:16.600 I finished.

00:07:18.600 Do you guys remember, like, doing power?

00:07:20.700 Like, did you cover, like, theories of power?

00:07:23.480 Robert Dow, his conception of power, backrats and barats.

00:07:27.740 Do you know?

00:07:28.220 Yeah.

00:07:28.480 Have you not done that?

00:07:29.220 All right.

00:07:29.380 So basically, there are different conceptions of power, yeah?

00:07:32.200 From a philosophical perspective, it's difficult to actually track what power is.

00:07:36.480 Robert Dow, he said that power is the ability for person A to change person B's ability

00:07:40.780 to do what he otherwise doesn't want to do, or something like that.

00:07:43.140 Then there's the second layer of power, which is backrats and barats, they advance on it,

00:07:46.600 et cetera.

00:07:47.480 So first of all, when we talk about power dynamics, and obviously, from a philosophical perspective,

00:07:51.100 you've got Michael Foucault, who talks about power in a very complicated way.

00:07:55.280 But it's very possible to have someone that is under the age of consent, like, in theory,

00:08:00.100 consenting to having sex with someone much older than them.

00:08:02.400 So they're both technically saying, yes, I want to do this. 0.75

00:08:04.620 Yeah, yeah, would you?

00:08:05.080 But what I was saying to you is that power, in and of itself, as a concept, as a construct,

00:08:09.860 is a very difficult thing to define.

00:08:11.520 And that's why you've got so many different people defining it in different ways.

00:08:14.680 Michael Foucault, Akratzen Barrett, Robert Dow.

00:08:17.300 Now, what I'll say to you that, so using this construct, which is power, to deem something

00:08:25.040 as immoral, is basically arguing in a circle.

00:08:28.520 Because first, you'd have to prove that it exists in a certain way.

00:08:31.120 And then you'd have to identify how this power exists in a certain relationship.

00:08:35.960 Do you see what I mean?

00:08:36.900 So, but I would say this.

00:08:38.700 I would say that.

00:08:40.040 I'll be completely honest with you.

00:08:42.000 From an atheist, you guys would consider yourself, like, non-religious, yeah?

00:08:45.600 So, like, you don't believe in a higher source, yeah?

00:08:47.360 I do believe in something that underlies everything.

00:08:51.840 So, would you?

00:08:52.280 Okay, fine, I'm with you.

00:08:53.200 But you don't believe in God?

00:08:54.400 I haven't, sort of, I haven't established, I haven't established what this underlying

00:09:02.860 something is, but he may be God, but he's a multiplicity of some kind.

00:09:07.920 Okay, I'm with you, but can I tell you something, yeah?

00:09:09.800 If you don't believe in God, my question to you would be, yeah, a straightforward question,

00:09:14.540 where do you derive your morals?

00:09:16.980 In terms of objective morality, do you think you can get objective morality without an all-knowing,

00:09:21.480 like, all-wise entity that can dictate them for you?

00:09:24.120 I think objective knowledge can still be, sort of, apparent to me through this, sort

00:09:30.720 of, rationale of, and reasoning between individuals, which is, like, this underlying something.

00:09:37.940 It is an underlying unknown big other that we are none the wiser to.

00:09:43.200 So, you're not completely dismissing the fact that there could be an entity out there

00:09:45.780 that's like that, right?

00:09:46.520 Yeah.

00:09:46.740 I'm with that.

00:09:47.560 But what I was going to say to you here is, this is my...

00:09:50.480 Just like, you know, science bases itself on objective knowledge.

00:09:54.680 Yeah.

00:09:54.920 Yeah.

00:09:55.280 Well, I mean, to be honest with you, the scientific method doesn't do that, because the scientific

00:10:00.740 method itself, it gives you certain knowledge that you can rely on at a certain time period,

00:10:05.860 but then that can be falsified later on.

00:10:07.340 Yeah, of course, of course, but as we...

00:10:08.940 It's not certain truth, though.

00:10:09.920 Yeah, yeah, it's not certain truth, but I feel like, you know, in different situations,

00:10:16.140 you've reasoned different outcomes to the certain outcomes that you want, right?

00:10:22.680 Like, if you're under threat, you wouldn't behave in the same way as if you were unthreatened.

00:10:27.540 I'm with you, but my point to you is, like, have you guys read Nietzsche yet?

00:10:31.280 Nietzsche?

00:10:31.960 Yeah?

00:10:32.240 Yeah.

00:10:32.920 What book have you guys read?

00:10:34.820 Beyond Good and Evil.

00:10:35.860 Beyond Good and Evil.

00:10:36.600 Do you know how hard that is to read?

00:10:37.680 Have you seen that read a book?

00:10:38.740 No, no, don't...

00:10:39.960 I mean, it's a difficult book to read.

00:10:41.120 Don't test your note, don't test your note.

00:10:41.740 I'm not going to test your note.

00:10:42.740 We can't defend the quotes right now.

00:10:43.920 But it's a difficult book to read that you agree, yeah?

00:10:46.260 It's like The Gay Science. 1.00

00:10:47.240 You wrote another book called The Gay Science.

00:10:48.220 All right.

00:10:48.640 Nietzsche, people like Nietzsche, people like Bertrand Russell, philosopher, atheist, people

00:10:53.800 like Derrida, Jacques Derrida, you know him.

00:10:56.400 These are post-modernists, yeah?

00:10:57.760 Yeah.

00:10:58.680 So, basically, they don't believe that objective morality exists.

00:11:03.000 Yeah.

00:11:03.480 I would agree with that.

00:11:04.320 You would agree with that, yeah?

00:11:04.880 Yeah, I would.

00:11:05.320 So, if I said to you, objectively, can you prove that homosexuality is a sin?

00:11:10.000 You say, no, you can't, yeah?

00:11:11.080 You can't prove it's a good thing to do, from your perspective.

00:11:12.960 Yeah.

00:11:13.200 But can you prove it's a good thing to do?

00:11:15.420 No.

00:11:15.780 And the same thing with...

00:11:16.480 But I believe that I can prove it's a good thing to do, in the sense that I feel loved,

00:11:21.520 I feel empowered, I feel like it gives me a sense of belonging, and I think that through

00:11:27.460 expressing my homosexuality, I've been able to be a more authentic version of myself

00:11:31.260 and give more to society.

00:11:32.380 I would agree.

00:11:32.420 So, I think I can prove, in a sense, that it's objective.

00:11:34.700 Why do you not think that, because objective morality has a very certain philosophical connotation?

00:11:40.580 Yeah, I guess the struggle is that I don't really believe in that many things that are

00:11:43.840 objective, and no matter what situation you're in, it is objective.

00:11:46.880 But at the same time, I could give you anecdotal and, like, just real-life experiences that

00:11:52.320 are proven to myself and many other people.

00:11:54.620 So, that's all subjective, then?

00:11:55.640 Yeah, subjective.

00:11:56.560 So, you can, okay, that's fine, I'm not saying that you're subjective.

00:11:58.080 It's only subjective because I don't believe in objective morality, and I don't believe

00:12:02.000 there's a right way to live your life.

00:12:02.980 I'm not saying to you that's wrong.

00:12:04.020 I'm not saying to you that you're not entitled to that, okay?

00:12:06.500 You're right?

00:12:06.860 I'm not saying that.

00:12:07.900 But I'm just saying that, so, it's very difficult for us here, from a non-objective perspective,

00:12:12.340 to actually condemn anything morally.

00:12:14.220 So, even if I say, because you said that it causes me love and this and that, like, I feel

00:12:17.500 homosexuality, you said my homosexuality makes me feel X, Y, Z, yeah?

00:12:20.620 I'm saying to you that Hitler might have felt good when he was, sorry, but, like, when 0.99

00:12:23.400 he was doing what he was doing, right?

00:12:24.760 It doesn't mean that, because of that feeling, that necessarily means that what he's doing

00:12:30.000 is moral.

00:12:30.820 But Hitler might have felt good, but at the same time, killed millions of people. 0.88

00:12:34.820 I feel good, and, like, I'm not stopping anyone else from living there.

00:12:38.500 So, going back to the harm principle, can we prove that liberalism is true, objectively?

00:12:43.220 You know, liberalism, the one that we described by John Stuart Mill, On Liberty, you know

00:12:49.560 the book, can we prove that that ideology is a true ideology, objectively?

00:12:59.200 No.

00:12:59.660 You guys, this is a good discussion, don't you think?

00:13:01.480 No.

00:13:01.760 All right.

00:13:02.120 Okay, let me say.

00:13:02.800 We can't prove that, no.

00:13:03.900 Okay, listen, guys, I want to tell you something, yeah?

00:13:05.820 So, I say to you the following thing, yeah?

00:13:08.080 Two points I made to you that I want to reiterate.

00:13:10.400 When it comes to the issue of homosexuality, I said to you, look, why do you accept that 1.00

00:13:16.860 so long as you can do whatever you want, so long as you don't harm anyone else, yeah?

00:13:19.820 I mean, it's hard to measure that.

00:13:21.160 Yeah, yeah, but you said you accept that as a maxim.

00:13:23.480 Yeah, I accept it in theory, but at the same time, I accept...

00:13:26.180 But you don't say it's an objective maxim?

00:13:27.340 No, no.

00:13:27.720 No, it's not an objective maxim at all.

00:13:29.080 But you accept it because...

00:13:29.980 It's impossible to measure how the ramifications of how you behave affecting other people.

00:13:35.960 Fine, I'm with you, yeah?

00:13:36.800 Yeah.

00:13:36.960 So, you accept it as an objective maxim.

00:13:40.240 What I'm saying to you right here and right now is that, first of all, we're not being

00:13:44.180 able to prove that.

00:13:44.820 We can't prove that, and you know that, right?

00:13:46.420 We can't prove that it's an objective maxim.

00:13:48.260 But even if we applied that objective maxim and we put it into practical usage, we've realized

00:13:53.100 that you'd have to allow incest to occur.

00:13:55.540 And you said you don't like it for naturalistic reasons, but what I'm saying to you is that

00:13:58.500 those creationists who make the same...

00:14:01.180 I find it problematic that you think that incest and homosexuality are very...

00:14:05.140 Can I ask you the question?

00:14:06.140 Like, what is the difference?

00:14:07.620 Like, why is it a false comparison?

00:14:10.480 Because incest is...

00:14:12.780 Why is it a false comparison?

00:14:13.760 It's an act that involves, like, very complicated power dynamics of mothers and children. 1.00

00:14:19.940 I told you before that the word power has philosophical connotations which we have to unpack, and people

00:14:23.940 define it differently.

00:14:25.080 So, Michael Foucault, Robert Dow, and, you know, backtrack to Barrett.

00:14:28.040 There's a lot of ambiguity in the sexual attraction.

00:14:33.120 There's a lot of ambiguity in the way we relate to each other.

00:14:37.400 Like, it's...

00:14:38.500 But can I tell you what I think, yeah?

00:14:39.980 I think the reason why homosexuality is accepted and incest is not as accepted is because in

00:14:45.700 the 1960s and 70s, you had a movement of homosexuals that came out publicly demanding rights, and

00:14:52.460 that was listened to by society, and it became the social norm.

00:14:55.280 So, had you had the same movement for people that practice incest...

00:14:59.240 It didn't have...

00:14:59.720 It's a hypothetical situation.

00:15:02.420 Well, I'm saying that...

00:15:02.720 No, no, but it's...

00:15:03.680 We talk about individual freedom.

00:15:05.560 Like, we talk about...

00:15:06.580 But then again, the person that wants to be in an incestuous relationship should have

00:15:10.360 his individual freedom as well.

00:15:11.640 Yeah, of course, but...

00:15:13.440 Okay, you can talk about sort of universalising...

00:15:17.020 Okay.

00:15:17.800 Are you with me now?

00:15:18.400 Do you see where I'm coming from?

00:15:19.240 No, no, I see where you're coming from.

00:15:20.840 You see where I'm coming from.

00:15:23.280 But...

00:15:23.920 There's a problem, because...

00:15:26.380 What's the problem?

00:15:28.420 As I said, like, when you asked me, do you have a problem with incest?

00:15:31.640 I said, if someone is of age, if they were 18 years old...

00:15:36.880 I'd say 35.

00:15:37.660 They both are...

00:15:38.280 The boys...

00:15:39.260 The man is a 35-year-old man, big man like me, and the mum is, like, you know, 55.

00:15:43.900 Okay.

00:15:44.100 And they want to get into an incestuous relationship together.

00:15:45.940 Okay.

00:15:45.980 I wouldn't say that was morally wrong.

00:15:48.640 Okay.

00:15:49.420 So now you've protected...

00:15:50.440 No, no, no.

00:15:50.960 Because I...

00:15:51.260 No, but I would say it's...

00:15:53.440 It's very strange, because...

00:15:56.160 But that's just your value judgment on it.

00:15:58.000 Yeah, it's my value judgment.

00:15:58.920 Because they knew each other...

00:15:59.940 Like, the mother knew them as a child, and they were a child to them, and they're still

00:16:04.000 a child, and the idea of adults having sex with children...

00:16:07.080 So what?

00:16:07.420 I view as morally wrong.

00:16:08.220 No, but they're not children anymore.

00:16:09.220 He's 35.

00:16:09.960 But...

00:16:10.360 Like, Woody Allen.

00:16:12.480 Woody Allen adopted a child.

00:16:16.160 She grew up to... 1.00

00:16:18.100 When she hit 18, he started getting with her, and then he ended up marrying her.

00:16:22.880 I genuinely don't think anything's wrong with that.

00:16:24.460 Okay, okay.

00:16:24.880 What's wrong with that?

00:16:26.740 What is...

00:16:27.080 She's not his... 1.00

00:16:27.540 She's not even his daughter.

00:16:28.020 I know, I know, but it...

00:16:29.500 But I don't think the relationship there is a relationship of equal power, or a relationship...

00:16:36.060 But remember what we said about power.

00:16:36.960 Okay, I'm going to stop using the word power, because that's the only thing you have

00:16:39.940 to cut me down on.

00:16:40.940 Okay, I don't think the relationship there is one that views the two people as, like,

00:16:45.400 equal people, because the mother has taught the son, or the father has taught the daughter,

00:16:51.380 this is how you should live your life.

00:16:52.980 But equality is, once again, you can't prove that objectively, can you?

00:16:56.760 I can't prove anything to you objectively, because I don't really believe in objective

00:16:59.880 truth, so it's kind of like a non-point.

00:17:01.780 I can't prove you objectively anything.

00:17:03.440 I get your point.

00:17:04.320 Alright, so, do you see...

00:17:05.180 Okay, what I'm saying to you is the following, yeah?

00:17:06.720 That we have to be...

00:17:09.100 Whatever paradigm we want to work within, we have to be morally consistent, yeah?

00:17:13.160 So, look, I'm a Muslim.

00:17:15.600 What I believe in is that, basically, God...

00:17:18.320 Yeah?

00:17:18.680 He had...

00:17:19.220 There were prophets that came a full time.

00:17:21.040 That God revealed a message that he is singular, he is one, etc., etc.

00:17:24.720 It's all these prophets.

00:17:25.920 And that these prophets came with two things.

00:17:27.700 They came with an evidence base, and they came with a message.

00:17:29.840 The message was that he was one, God is one, etc.

00:17:32.020 And that you have to obey God.

00:17:35.160 That's the message.

00:17:36.680 In that message...

00:17:37.900 So, there's basically God's expectations we have to be.

00:17:40.680 In that message, I'm saying to you that we believe that homosexuality, the act of penetration... 1.00

00:17:47.580 Sorry to be graphic.

00:17:48.880 What if you're a girl?

00:17:49.820 What if you're a girl?

00:17:50.500 What about it?

00:17:51.060 Is it still like... 0.97

00:17:51.600 You can't have penetration if you're having two girls having sex. 0.99

00:17:53.580 You can if you... 0.98

00:17:54.700 I mean, you can.

00:17:55.840 But if you don't have penetration if you're having two girls having sex, is it morally wrong?

00:17:59.380 It's morally wrong as well, we say that.

00:18:02.020 Yeah, we say basically...

00:18:03.000 But why?

00:18:03.580 If it's the act of penetration, why is it...

00:18:05.380 The question of why?

00:18:06.140 The answer of it is a straightforward question.

00:18:08.160 The paradigm is that God knows best, yeah?

00:18:10.320 Sure.

00:18:10.880 Yeah, so God knows best, so he's telling us it's wrong. 0.99

00:18:13.760 But if you're saying the act of gay sex is wrong because of the act of penetration... 0.99

00:18:17.220 No, no, it's not that. 0.99

00:18:18.360 So, why is the act of gay sex... 1.00

00:18:20.660 Why is it wrong? 0.99

00:18:21.440 The answer from our paradigm is because God said so.

00:18:24.420 And God is all-knowing.

00:18:26.180 And that's objective morality.

00:18:27.600 Therefore, everything that comes from an objective moral perspective is what we follow.

00:18:31.080 So, but even if you wanted to use your own words against...

00:18:34.960 Because you did mention naturalistic things, yeah?

00:18:37.400 You said that incest is unnatural, yeah?

00:18:41.340 I didn't say that.

00:18:42.240 Well, I think we agreed upon that at some stage. 0.95

00:18:44.500 But we could use that very same argument against homosexuals. 0.94

00:18:48.800 I didn't, yeah.

00:18:49.620 But homosexuality exists in so many different species that existed throughout the whole

00:18:54.040 of time.

00:18:54.380 Fine.

00:18:54.780 So does murder.

00:18:57.580 I'm not saying that you're a murderer.

00:18:59.880 No, but I think it's hard to argue that it's unnatural if it exists in, like, penguins.

00:19:05.420 Penguins don't, like, make moralistic decisions.

00:19:07.960 They make naturalistic decisions.

00:19:09.160 No, it's because they don't make a moralistic decision.

00:19:10.740 Remember on Maxim that they don't get charged for that.

00:19:12.880 Do you know that?

00:19:13.540 The penguin, if he decides to enjoy his, another penguin, a male one, and he was a male penguin,

00:19:19.120 then he doesn't...

00:19:19.840 But look, I'll tell you what, yeah?

00:19:21.100 I really respect where you guys are coming from because I feel like you...

00:19:23.980 No, I'm not saying you're coming from.

00:19:24.780 Do you know, like, I feel like you've understood my argument.

00:19:26.840 So I feel like free discussion and conversation, the one that we've had today, is a vitally

00:19:32.560 important thing that we should do.

00:19:34.800 And that's a point of agreement.

00:19:36.620 Can, in your opinion, can, like, Muslims and homosexuals live side by side?

00:19:42.760 Indeed.

00:19:43.200 Oh, yeah.

00:19:43.680 Look, I mean, the thing is, yeah, this is, I think, one of the biggest misconceptions,

00:19:47.360 where people actually feel, because of the things that's happened, yeah, the, like,

00:19:52.020 recent incidents and whatnot, that we are out here to kill civilians or something like that. 0.99

00:19:56.840 Or that we are out here to hurt homosexuals. 0.99

00:19:59.800 It's not what we believe in. 0.97

00:20:01.180 So we don't believe...

00:20:02.180 In the Quran, it says in chapter 2, verse 256,

00:20:04.380 It says that there's no compulsion in religion.

00:20:08.580 That the truth is very manifestly clear from the falsehood.

00:20:12.380 So with that, I will conclude.

00:20:14.120 But look, I'll tell you to do one thing, if you don't mind, yeah?

00:20:17.360 And I'll let you think about it.

00:20:21.000 Can you do me a favor, when you go home, start reading the Quran.

00:20:24.640 I do want to read it.

00:20:25.720 Read it, because if you're doing PPE,

00:20:27.040 if you're doing PPE,

00:20:28.120 you will get...

00:20:28.960 I'll tell you what you guys are going to have.

00:20:30.020 You're going to have a good insight in the world.

00:20:32.860 Because I've done a very similar course in uni, yeah?

00:20:35.100 What did you do?

00:20:35.940 Sorry.

00:20:36.300 I learned politics.

00:20:36.820 I learned politics that I did a postgraduate in history and things after that.

00:20:41.680 But the point is,

00:20:43.700 there was a lot of, like, philosophy modules and whatnot, yeah?

00:20:47.420 What you need to...

00:20:48.120 I think what will make you an all-rounded person

00:20:50.180 is not only to have an idea of politics and philosophy,

00:20:53.160 but also to have an understanding of, at least, the world, major world religions.

00:20:56.780 Like, where are we coming from?

00:20:58.180 So I know now where you're coming from.

00:21:00.160 So you should know where I'm coming from.

00:21:01.560 I'm not saying that you...

00:21:02.440 Look, I'm not going to treat you in a bad way.

00:21:05.460 I don't like people that don't eat pork.

00:21:08.300 I don't like, sorry, eating pork, yeah?

00:21:10.160 But I'm not going to stand outside the test scores, yeah?

00:21:12.680 Oh, this guy's got a...

00:21:13.620 You know what I'm saying?

00:21:15.980 What do you call it?

00:21:16.600 A beer can.

00:21:17.540 Let's rush him. 1.00

00:21:18.640 Let's beat him up. 0.98

00:21:19.760 We're not going to do that.

00:21:20.680 It's not practically and reasonably.

00:21:23.060 That's not how we interact.

00:21:25.460 Our method is rationalism.

00:21:27.580 We believe in, like, intellectualizing it.

00:21:29.040 And speaking.

00:21:29.720 And genuinely, not shukukoting it.

00:21:31.760 I'm not going to lie to you.

00:21:32.540 But also, I'm not going to treat you with any disrespect.

00:21:35.340 Because that's not the way of the prophets.

00:21:36.440 That's not what...

00:21:37.340 Not dead when he met the people.

00:21:39.280 He said to the people, you know,

00:21:41.900 basically, abandon this act of homosexuality.

00:21:45.420 Abandon it. 0.57

00:21:46.480 You'll feel that your life is probably going to get better.

00:21:48.980 I'm going to be honest with you.

00:21:49.740 What if it doesn't?

00:21:50.680 Trust me, I'll tell you what.

00:21:51.800 What if it doesn't?

00:21:52.520 I promise you, it will.

00:21:55.280 But what if I felt worse being in the closet than out of the closet?

00:21:59.660 Do you know what?

00:22:00.060 It's not all about how you feel from a sexual perspective.

00:22:02.540 Can I tell you that?

00:22:03.280 But not from a sexual perspective.

00:22:04.540 In a sense of, like, me as a whole human being.

00:22:07.360 I feel like I'm a more authentic version of myself

00:22:10.020 if I'm honest about my homosexual feelings.

00:22:12.020 Do you know what?

00:22:12.320 You've got to ask yourself a question now.

00:22:13.620 What is the purpose of life?

00:22:15.120 Because if you answer that question properly,

00:22:17.440 then you can answer why...

00:22:19.000 What would be the most authentic version of you?

00:22:20.940 Do you see what I mean?

00:22:21.660 Yeah.

00:22:22.300 You are authentic when you're doing your purpose.

00:22:24.700 There's a basic human function.

00:22:25.860 We've got to ask ourselves,

00:22:26.500 what is that basic human function?

00:22:28.420 Do you see what I'm saying?

00:22:29.880 Yeah.

00:22:30.620 All right.

00:22:31.160 Well, it's been fantastic.

00:22:32.140 I'm going to run now

00:22:32.880 because I've got to pray

00:22:33.640 and go to these guys.

00:22:34.860 Thank you so much for everything, yeah?

00:22:36.040 Thank you very much.

00:22:36.600 Brilliant.

00:22:37.080 Fantastic, yeah?

00:22:37.600 Thank you very much.

00:22:38.220 Take care.

00:22:38.500 Thank you.

Ali Dawah - December 09, 2016

ARE HOMOSEXUALITY & INCEST THE SAME？｜｜ SPEAKERS CORNER

Episode Stats

Summary

Transcript

Ali Dawah - December 09, 2016

ARE HOMOSEXUALITY & INCEST THE SAME？ ｜｜ SPEAKERS CORNER

Episode Stats

Summary

Transcript

ARE HOMOSEXUALITY & INCEST THE SAME？｜｜ SPEAKERS CORNER