Ali Dawah


ATHEIST BELIEVES IN BLUE DRAGONS ｜｜ SPEAKERS CORNER


Episode Stats

Misogynist Sentences

1

Hate Speech Sentences

8


Summary

In this episode, we take a look at whether or not technology is man-made or not, and how to answer the question "Is it man made or is it not man made?". We also talk about the use of analogies, and the argument by analogy.


Transcript

00:00:00.000 A
00:00:13.080 and the love of the people
00:00:15.080 and the heart of the soul
00:00:17.080 and the soul of the soul
00:00:19.080 and the soul of the soul
00:00:21.080 and the soul of the soul
00:00:23.080 and the soul of the soul
00:00:25.080 and the soul of the soul
00:00:27.080 Yeah, please.
00:00:29.080 It seems to be an unspoken assumption
00:00:31.080 in your arguments
00:00:33.080 to do with the sort of complexity
00:00:35.080 So, can you
00:00:37.080 describe
00:00:39.080 in your mind
00:00:41.080 or is there just one ever source of complexity
00:00:43.080 or can there be different kinds of
00:00:45.080 sorts of complexity?
00:00:47.080 Andy. I'm Ali.
00:00:49.080 Andy, so what I'm trying to say
00:00:51.080 let's use our simple reasoning
00:00:53.080 simple understanding to come to a certain
00:00:55.080 basic conclusion, yeah?
00:00:57.080 Now, if you go home
00:00:59.080 and a plate is smashed on the floor
00:01:01.080 what are the first two or three
00:01:03.080 or one conclusions that you will come up with
00:01:05.080 when you see your plate smashed on the floor?
00:01:07.080 Right, you might be answering my question
00:01:09.080 in a roundabout way
00:01:11.080 but I was hoping you could get to it a bit more directly
00:01:13.080 If I could use the example
00:01:15.080 for example, for example, for example
00:01:17.080 I'm only going to do one
00:01:21.080 We take a drop of water
00:01:23.080 I use the snowflake and an ice cube
00:01:25.080 Use that, use that
00:01:27.080 You've been round this, Luke
00:01:29.080 Maybe you can explain it in a way
00:01:31.080 he'll accept, understand, I don't know
00:01:33.080 I think we'd all agree that a snowflake
00:01:35.080 and a drop of water
00:01:37.080 Now, one measure that can be
00:01:39.080 used in physics and mathematics
00:01:41.080 is the amount of, if you like
00:01:43.080 if you're designing a software program
00:01:45.080 to describe it, a drop of water
00:01:47.080 would quite simply describe it
00:01:49.080 a snowflake rather more elaborate program
00:01:51.080 because there's not a lot of details
00:01:53.080 So therefore, an example
00:01:55.080 an example of
00:01:57.080 it is one of the definitions of complexity
00:01:59.080 how many lines of code would you need to
00:02:01.080 So there's an example
00:02:05.080 We know from physics how snowflakes form
00:02:07.080 there doesn't seem to be any room
00:02:09.080 within that module
00:02:11.080 for anything else
00:02:13.080 We know, given the
00:02:15.080 properties of molecules of water
00:02:17.080 But Andy, you're missing the point
00:02:19.080 You're seeing, we know by physics
00:02:21.080 how the snowflake forms
00:02:23.080 You're explaining
00:02:25.080 the how
00:02:27.080 how it works
00:02:29.080 I'm asking you, why does it work like that?
00:02:31.080 But that's not a valid question
00:02:33.080 It's a very valid question
00:02:34.080 because you're explaining the how
00:02:35.080 it works like this
00:02:36.080 You've moved on
00:02:37.080 because you introduced an example
00:02:38.080 this is where I came in
00:02:39.080 and I understood it
00:02:40.080 to introduce a mobile phone
00:02:43.080 and that's another interesting thing
00:02:45.080 because in your conversation with Rob
00:02:47.080 you were quite adamant
00:02:48.080 that any human being ever
00:02:50.080 would identify that
00:02:51.080 as an artifact
00:02:53.080 Now, I don't know if that's true at all
00:02:55.080 I mean there's a kind of difference
00:02:58.080 between cultures here
00:02:59.080 We could probably encounter
00:03:01.080 artifacts produced by other cultures
00:03:03.080 We're not quite sure
00:03:04.080 whether they're natural or man-made
00:03:06.080 I'm sure with a bit of thought
00:03:07.080 you could, archaeologists
00:03:09.080 would probably tell you all the time
00:03:10.080 there's something here
00:03:11.080 but I'm not entirely sure what it is
00:03:12.080 You know, it could be
00:03:13.080 In fact, I remember reading
00:03:15.080 one to come to mind
00:03:16.080 where this lovely piece of stone was found
00:03:20.080 and it was assumed to be a tool or something
00:03:23.080 but it was just a brick
00:03:26.080 and he wrote a brick
00:03:28.080 so there's sometimes doubt
00:03:30.080 about whether something's designed
00:03:32.080 but interesting, you're very adamant
00:03:34.080 that somebody who's never contacted
00:03:36.080 you see, this is an interesting thing
00:03:37.080 we live in a bubble, if you like
00:03:39.080 of Western technology
00:03:40.080 so we know
00:03:41.080 it seems obvious to us
00:03:43.080 that the smartphone is man-made
00:03:44.080 and as Rob was saying
00:03:45.080 there's an awful lot of background
00:03:46.080 How do you know it's man-made?
00:03:47.080 Because there's an awful lot of background
00:03:48.080 What background?
00:03:49.080 Where we distinguish between
00:03:50.080 the background of the culture that we live in
00:03:51.080 Not culture
00:03:52.080 What's the background of the phone
00:03:53.080 that you think is designed?
00:03:54.080 What makes you think it's designed?
00:03:56.080 Well I've just told you
00:03:58.080 the cultural background
00:03:59.080 of knowing
00:04:00.080 knowing certain things are natural
00:04:02.080 and certain things are not
00:04:04.080 OK
00:04:05.080 Now I can't say
00:04:06.080 whether somebody
00:04:07.080 totally without that background
00:04:08.080 who never encountered
00:04:09.080 you know
00:04:10.080 the products of technology
00:04:11.080 who lived in a society
00:04:12.080 maybe hunter-gatherer
00:04:13.080 maybe
00:04:14.080 maybe one of the earlier
00:04:15.080 human societies
00:04:16.080 where they don't even really use
00:04:17.080 sophisticated tools
00:04:18.080 Now if they came across that
00:04:20.080 I'm not entirely sure
00:04:21.080 I'm not entirely sure
00:04:22.080 if they would
00:04:23.080 regard it
00:04:24.080 it could be either
00:04:25.080 they would
00:04:26.080 in agreement with you
00:04:27.080 say it's man-made
00:04:28.080 or they might say
00:04:29.080 assume it's another natural object
00:04:31.080 or
00:04:32.080 they might assume it's
00:04:33.080 something from the gods
00:04:34.080 that's probably more likely
00:04:36.080 It depends
00:04:37.080 Yeah I understand
00:04:38.080 but they will not deny
00:04:39.080 We don't know
00:04:40.080 the point is we don't know
00:04:41.080 but it's fairly central to your argument
00:04:43.080 and I hear this a lot
00:04:44.080 the smartphone universe
00:04:45.080 Yes yes
00:04:46.080 Now the next question is
00:04:47.080 are you using the argument
00:04:48.080 by analogy here
00:04:49.080 so we need to understand
00:04:50.080 how analogies work
00:04:51.080 So
00:04:52.080 Can we first understand
00:04:53.080 how simple reasoning works?
00:04:54.080 Go on then
00:04:55.080 Well I know
00:04:56.080 that's what I was going to do
00:04:57.080 because you're using
00:04:58.080 the reasoning by analogy
00:04:59.080 so we need to understand
00:05:00.080 how analogies work
00:05:01.080 I understand what you're saying
00:05:02.080 yeah
00:05:03.080 Tell me how analogies work
00:05:04.080 for example
00:05:05.080 a person
00:05:06.080 who does know nothing
00:05:07.080 about technology
00:05:08.080 if he comes across this
00:05:09.080 he will not believe
00:05:10.080 it came from nothing
00:05:11.080 neither will he believe
00:05:12.080 it came by chance
00:05:13.080 because he was
00:05:14.080 You're claiming a lot
00:05:15.080 No not claiming
00:05:16.080 look look look
00:05:17.080 I'm telling you
00:05:18.080 he will look at simple
00:05:19.080 simple simple
00:05:20.080 simple reasoning
00:05:21.080 This is you
00:05:22.080 entering into the mind
00:05:23.080 of somebody who's never encountered technology
00:05:24.080 Andy let's go
00:05:25.080 Andy let's go back to your house
00:05:26.080 and the plate that smashed on the floor
00:05:27.080 yeah
00:05:28.080 Okay this plate is very important
00:05:29.080 to us
00:05:30.080 When you see a plate smashed on the floor
00:05:33.080 in your house
00:05:34.080 what is the simple reasoning
00:05:35.080 you come with?
00:05:36.080 Do you think a blue dragon
00:05:37.080 flew through your house
00:05:38.080 and dropped that plate on the floor?
00:05:39.080 A blue dragon
00:05:40.080 flew through the house
00:05:41.080 Would you say that?
00:05:42.080 Well technically
00:05:43.080 I can't exclude that possibility
00:05:45.080 That's the problem
00:05:46.080 That's the problem
00:05:47.080 I wasn't there when it happened
00:05:48.080 You see how crazy that sounds Andy
00:05:49.080 However
00:05:50.080 I will use my knowledge of the world
00:05:52.080 to
00:05:53.080 And come to that blue dragon
00:05:54.080 flew through your house
00:05:55.080 No no
00:05:56.080 What conclusion can I come to?
00:05:58.080 You see
00:05:59.080 It could have been a minor earthquake
00:06:00.080 It could have been a burglar
00:06:01.080 Yeah no it's fine
00:06:02.080 Thank you
00:06:03.080 It could have been badly positioned
00:06:04.080 when I did the washing up
00:06:05.080 All sorts of things
00:06:06.080 Okay good
00:06:07.080 Those three points
00:06:08.080 what you just said there
00:06:09.080 Forget the blue dragon
00:06:10.080 that sounded a bit crazy
00:06:11.080 But
00:06:12.080 I'm sorry
00:06:13.080 The fact that you said
00:06:14.080 The fact that you said
00:06:15.080 The fact that you said earthquake
00:06:16.080 Maybe for example
00:06:17.080 I left it in a slippery place
00:06:18.080 Yeah I do that one
00:06:19.080 Good good
00:06:20.080 Good reasoning
00:06:21.080 Simple reasoning
00:06:22.080 Maybe you had a pet
00:06:23.080 in the house
00:06:24.080 which
00:06:25.080 Yeah
00:06:26.080 might cause it to drop
00:06:27.080 But you will never
00:06:28.080 ever come to the conclusion
00:06:29.080 that that plate
00:06:30.080 flew off
00:06:31.080 on it's own and fell
00:06:32.080 Would you ever come to that conclusion?
00:06:34.080 No
00:06:35.080 Okay
00:06:36.080 Thank you
00:06:37.080 No forces working on it
00:06:38.080 That's what I'm trying to say
00:06:39.080 Let's use our simple reasoning
00:06:40.080 We're using our simple reasoning
00:06:41.080 Good
00:06:42.080 A plate would not fly on it's own
00:06:43.080 and smash on the floor
00:06:44.080 Okay
00:06:45.080 So what we say is
00:06:46.080 there's a cause and effect
00:06:47.080 Yeah
00:06:48.080 So what I say is now
00:06:49.080 Now
00:06:50.080 let's go to
00:06:51.080 for example
00:06:52.080 let's say if I had a tissue in my left hand
00:06:53.080 and a mobile phone in my right
00:06:54.080 Yeah
00:06:55.080 If I said to you
00:06:56.080 you have to pick one
00:06:57.080 not two
00:06:58.080 You have to pick one of these
00:06:59.080 Which one?
00:07:00.080 The tissue in the phone
00:07:01.080 The tissue in the phone
00:07:02.080 No but my point
00:07:03.080 My point with the leaf
00:07:04.080 My point with the leaf
00:07:05.080 My point with the leaf is
00:07:06.080 we're going to find the one
00:07:07.080 who created the leaf
00:07:08.080 We're going to find the one
00:07:09.080 who created the leaf
00:07:10.080 No no
00:07:11.080 And say
00:07:12.080 this is qualities
00:07:13.080 and this is the same qualities
00:07:14.080 Yes
00:07:15.080 And you have to check that
00:07:16.080 No I understand
00:07:17.080 but what you're coming with
00:07:18.080 if I'm not assuming
00:07:19.080 is what you're coming with
00:07:20.080 is that that's natural
00:07:21.080 and I'm saying to you
00:07:22.080 who said to you it's natural
00:07:23.080 You're claiming it's just
00:07:24.080 randomly happening
00:07:25.080 and I'm trying to prove to you now
00:07:26.080 it randomly didn't happen
00:07:27.080 Yes
00:07:28.080 But let me tell you why
00:07:29.080 Let's come to the tissue in the mobile phone
00:07:30.080 You have to pick one
00:07:31.080 Which one would you go with that
00:07:33.080 Which one is more complex in design?
00:07:34.080 You have to pick one
00:07:35.080 The tissue
00:07:36.080 Complex isn't an issue
00:07:37.080 No
00:07:38.080 Unless you're open now
00:07:39.080 I've been waiting for that for years
00:07:40.080 I've been waiting for that for years
00:07:41.080 He needs a lot of blessings
00:07:42.080 after saying the tissue is more complex
00:07:43.080 than the mobile phone
00:07:44.080 No he said a tissue
00:07:45.080 Yeah he said the tissue is more complex
00:07:46.080 than the mobile phone
00:07:47.080 Which one?
00:07:48.080 Sorry which one is more complex?
00:07:49.080 The tissue or the mobile phone
00:07:50.080 Do you really need that time to think?
00:07:52.080 Come on
00:07:53.080 What's our measure of complexity?
00:07:54.080 Yes
00:07:55.080 What is?
00:07:56.080 No what is?
00:07:57.080 What is our measure of complexity?
00:07:58.080 You know what's happening now?
00:07:59.080 We've took simple reason out
00:08:00.080 I'm just saying simple reasoning
00:08:01.080 Mobile phone or tissue
00:08:02.080 It's our measure of complexity
00:08:04.080 Andy
00:08:05.080 Ali
00:08:06.080 You can't keep saying simple reasoning
00:08:07.080 as your defence
00:08:08.080 when people ask you a question
00:08:09.080 No no we are
00:08:10.080 We are because
00:08:11.080 No wait a minute
00:08:12.080 I'll follow this
00:08:13.080 I'll follow this
00:08:14.080 No
00:08:15.080 Why why
00:08:16.080 See there you go
00:08:17.080 Why did you jump the phone?
00:08:18.080 Why are you going complex?
00:08:19.080 This is my point
00:08:20.080 Let me follow this
00:08:21.080 No no no no no no
00:08:22.080 Why did you go for the phone sir?
00:08:23.080 It contains more parts
00:08:24.080 Thank you
00:08:25.080 Simple reasoning
00:08:26.080 Simple
00:08:27.080 I don't know what you're saying
00:08:28.080 What was the measure of complexity
00:08:29.080 I introduced a measure before
00:08:30.080 Which is the amount of complexity
00:08:31.080 I want to make my point
00:08:32.080 To describe the object
00:08:33.080 I want to make my point
00:08:34.080 In fact a mobile phone is very regular
00:08:35.080 If you look at the circuit
00:08:36.080 It's not regular
00:08:37.080 You don't
00:08:38.080 Yes it is
00:08:39.080 If you look at the microchip inside it
00:08:40.080 All you need to do is define one transistor
00:08:41.080 and say that's repeated a million times
00:08:43.080 One second
00:08:44.080 Done
00:08:45.080 Right a tissue
00:08:46.080 One second sir let's get this right
00:08:47.080 At the microscope
00:08:48.080 Sir
00:08:49.080 I mean there's a kind of structure there
00:08:50.080 Look Andy
00:08:51.080 Yeah
00:08:52.080 Which one
00:08:53.080 I'm just
00:08:54.080 I'm very visual now
00:08:55.080 Yeah
00:08:56.080 Yeah
00:08:57.080 But you won't let me ask
00:08:58.080 What is your measure of complexity
00:08:59.080 Why did he not ask me that
00:09:01.080 When I said to him which one is
00:09:02.080 Because he's using your natural language
00:09:03.080 And I will say the phone as well
00:09:04.080 Andy
00:09:05.080 Simple reasoning
00:09:06.080 Simple reasoning
00:09:07.080 There's two things happen reasoning
00:09:08.080 There's two things happen here
00:09:09.080 You'll be too simple with your reasoning
00:09:10.080 Yes
00:09:11.080 Very much so
00:09:12.080 Because it's a very complex issue
00:09:13.080 No no no
00:09:14.080 Why do you have philosophers
00:09:15.080 They spend thousands of years discussing this
00:09:16.080 I mean
00:09:17.080 Good on them
00:09:18.080 I respect them for the Athens
00:09:19.080 If they were all like you
00:09:20.080 Athens
00:09:21.080 What you need to do is explain
00:09:22.080 Oh no no no
00:09:23.080 Play to Aristotle
00:09:24.080 Oh it's all simple isn't it
00:09:25.080 No no no no
00:09:26.080 But you need to explain to him the analogy
00:09:27.080 Because he doesn't get the analogy part
00:09:28.080 Which analogy
00:09:29.080 When you were going to explain to him
00:09:30.080 The logic of analogy
00:09:31.080 I was trying to
00:09:32.080 But the box to go off on his phones
00:09:33.080 So I'll play the game
00:09:34.080 So the phone
00:09:35.080 Carry on
00:09:36.080 No you're not playing the game
00:09:37.080 You're using simple reasoning there
00:09:38.080 It's not a game
00:09:39.080 No the thing
00:09:40.080 What I've noticed
00:09:41.080 Okay why the phone
00:09:42.080 Is that if I try and introduce
00:09:43.080 Supplementary complexity
00:09:44.080 Into these arguments
00:09:45.080 Your voice will get louder
00:09:46.080 And you'll start saying
00:09:47.080 Use simple reasoning
00:09:48.080 No no no
00:09:49.080 I'm simply trying to say
00:09:50.080 That actually it's quite nuanced
00:09:51.080 There's a lot of complexity in here
00:09:52.080 How we use language
00:09:53.080 Okay okay okay
00:09:54.080 How we use analogies
00:09:55.080 What is the nature of reasoning
00:09:56.080 All these sort of things
00:09:57.080 Now if you were to stand there
00:09:58.080 Just insisting that we use
00:09:59.080 Your conception of reasoning
00:10:00.080 Yeah
00:10:01.080 I can't really go anywhere
00:10:02.080 Okay
00:10:03.080 So the only way we can go anywhere
00:10:04.080 Are you married
00:10:05.080 Are you married
00:10:06.080 If I agree
00:10:07.080 Are you going for something else
00:10:08.080 Andy are you married
00:10:09.080 I'm trying to ask a question
00:10:10.080 If you are married
00:10:11.080 You came home
00:10:12.080 And you saw that plate of smash on the floor
00:10:13.080 And you said to your wife
00:10:14.080 Hold on a second
00:10:15.080 Wait wait wait wait wait wait
00:10:16.080 And your wife said
00:10:17.080 You know what
00:10:18.080 Probably the candidate
00:10:19.080 No no no
00:10:20.080 No no no sense yeah
00:10:21.080 You might say
00:10:22.080 What the hell is wrong with you
00:10:23.080 The plate is smashed on the floor
00:10:24.080 But no
00:10:25.080 Because you know why
00:10:26.080 Because your wife will say
00:10:27.080 Why are you getting complex
00:10:28.080 Why don't it go complex now
00:10:29.080 Hold on a second
00:10:30.080 Let's make an investigation here
00:10:31.080 What caused the plate to drop
00:10:32.080 Now you're going to say
00:10:33.080 Something caused it
00:10:34.080 Earthquake
00:10:35.080 Cat
00:10:36.080 Slippery
00:10:37.080 Place where I put it
00:10:38.080 Some reason is
00:10:39.080 You're not going to go complex
00:10:40.080 So I'm asking you
00:10:41.080 Why don't you use the same here
00:10:42.080 You said the mobile phone yeah
00:10:44.080 I put the mobile phone on my left hand
00:10:45.080 And the universe on my right
00:10:46.080 The same question yeah
00:10:48.080 And before I go to that question
00:10:49.080 Have you seen this mobile phone being made?
00:10:52.080 In the factory
00:10:53.080 I've seen videos of how they're made
00:10:56.080 I was in computer science for 30 years
00:10:58.080 Good good
00:10:59.080 I have a fairly good appreciation
00:11:00.080 Even though the technology is way ahead of mainframes
00:11:02.080 I used to work on
00:11:03.080 Fundamentally they're the same thing
00:11:04.080 If you did not see that video
00:11:06.080 Or go to the factory
00:11:07.080 Yeah
00:11:08.080 Did you deny that this is designed?
00:11:09.080 This goes back to the argument I was trying to make before
00:11:11.080 Because I'm a member of a culture that
00:11:14.080 You know I grew up in an age of TVs
00:11:17.080 Wirelessers
00:11:18.080 Motor cars
00:11:19.080 And that sort of thing
00:11:20.080 I can confidently say
00:11:21.080 Even if I've never seen anything like that before
00:11:23.080 Yeah
00:11:24.080 I would confidently say
00:11:25.080 That's man made
00:11:26.080 That's man made
00:11:27.080 Thank you
00:11:28.080 Because I'm from the culture that I'm from
00:11:29.080 Thank you very much
00:11:30.080 That's as far as I can say
00:11:31.080 You would say it's man made
00:11:32.080 Even if you did not go to the factory
00:11:33.080 And saw it being made
00:11:34.080 Yes
00:11:35.080 Thank you
00:11:36.080 Simple reasoning
00:11:37.080 Well you're ignoring
00:11:38.080 No
00:11:39.080 No
00:11:40.080 No
00:11:41.080 No
00:11:42.080 I'm not bypassing
00:11:43.080 I'm not bypassing
00:11:44.080 Mobile phone in the universe
00:11:45.080 Which one is more complex?
00:11:46.080 Well
00:11:47.080 I first will ask
00:11:48.080 What is my measure of complexity here
00:11:50.080 But I think easy enough
00:11:52.080 On any reasonable measure of complexity
00:11:54.080 I suppose you'd have to say the universe
00:11:56.080 Because
00:11:57.080 Because
00:11:58.080 It contains the mobile phones
00:11:59.080 For one thing
00:12:00.080 Yes
00:12:01.080 One of the
00:12:02.080 It has a complex thing
00:12:03.080 Within a complex universe
00:12:05.080 Okay
00:12:06.080 So
00:12:07.080 This is exactly my point
00:12:08.080 Which I don't understand
00:12:09.080 You guys are saying
00:12:10.080 I'm missing missing missing what?
00:12:11.080 You guys are missing the link here
00:12:12.080 The fact that you came to that simple conclusion
00:12:14.080 With a simple reasoning
00:12:15.080 Shows me
00:12:16.080 Why I believe
00:12:17.080 There's a high intelligence being out there
00:12:19.080 Because
00:12:20.080 If you cannot deny a phone
00:12:21.080 Which you did not
00:12:22.080 You said to me
00:12:23.080 If you did not go to the factory
00:12:24.080 And see it get made
00:12:25.080 You will still believe it's made
00:12:26.080 By men
00:12:27.080 By men
00:12:28.080 So how could you come to me
00:12:29.080 How many men made the mobile phone?
00:12:31.080 500
00:12:32.080 Okay
00:12:33.080 So let's say using your analogy
00:12:34.080 500 men made the universe
00:12:35.080 No
00:12:36.080 That's the thing
00:12:37.080 Why?
00:12:38.080 But you did not want to discuss the nature of analogies
00:12:40.080 I'm just
00:12:41.080 I'm going with that
00:12:42.080 Exactly
00:12:43.080 I should use your simple reasoning
00:12:44.080 Your simple reasoning
00:12:45.080 Thank you
00:12:46.080 500 men made the mobile phone
00:12:47.080 Okay
00:12:48.080 Using your simple reasoning
00:12:49.080 500 men made the universe
00:12:50.080 QED
00:12:51.080 Thank you very much
00:12:52.080 Okay
00:12:53.080 Thank you very much
00:12:54.080 Where are we
00:12:55.080 Where are we
00:12:56.080 Where are we
00:12:57.080 Multiple gods
00:12:58.080 500 gods
00:12:59.080 See that's the thing
00:13:00.080 So you're a polytheist
00:13:01.080 No no I'm not polytheist
00:13:02.080 I'm a polytheist
00:13:03.080 There's no proof that one god made it
00:13:04.080 We know from a mobile phone
00:13:05.080 It takes committees of designers
00:13:07.080 It takes all sorts of people with different skills and so on
00:13:10.080 The universe as we both agree
00:13:12.080 Is more complex than a mobile phone
00:13:13.080 Therefore there must be committees of people for trees
00:13:16.080 For the Norwegian fjords
00:13:17.080 For galaxies
00:13:18.080 All sorts of things
00:13:19.080 Sorry not people
00:13:20.080 Gods
00:13:21.080 I mean I can imagine
00:13:22.080 The whole pantheon of gods
00:13:23.080 Specialising in earth, wind and fire
00:13:25.080 All sorts of things
00:13:26.080 Andy so what we've come now
00:13:27.080 There you go
00:13:28.080 I'm happy to live with gods
00:13:29.080 As long as there's a pantheon
00:13:30.080 You know what's happened now
00:13:31.080 Now we have come to the conclusion
00:13:33.080 There is design behind the universe
00:13:35.080 I'm going with your simple reasoning
00:13:36.080 Now the problem is
00:13:37.080 Now the problem is
00:13:38.080 No I'm just following your track
00:13:39.080 You'll have to demolish the idea of a pantheon of gods
00:13:41.080 Thank you
00:13:42.080 Because you're a monotheist
00:13:43.080 This is very good
00:13:44.080 So what we've done now
00:13:45.080 Is we have established
00:13:46.080 That there is a designer
00:13:47.080 I'm not afraid that there's a designer
00:13:48.080 By the way at all
00:13:49.080 This is the problem here
00:13:50.080 Why are you so afraid
00:13:51.080 What can I say
00:13:52.080 Nobody's scared of it
00:13:53.080 It was a muffin
00:13:54.080 A chocolate muffin
00:13:55.080 You're misrepresenting
00:13:56.080 I'm not scared of it at all
00:13:57.080 Andy Andy Andy Andy Andy
00:13:58.080 You said that there must be these 500 gods
00:13:59.080 Meaning that you have come to the conclusion with me
00:14:02.080 That there is a designer
00:14:03.080 But you believe that design has to be 500 gods
00:14:05.080 He's using your analogy Andy
00:14:07.080 Yes
00:14:08.080 I'm not entirely serious with that
00:14:09.080 I know I know
00:14:10.080 But he's using my analogy to come to a conclusion
00:14:12.080 That there is design behind the universe
00:14:14.080 And that design has to be 500 gods
00:14:16.080 I said 500 individuals to make the phone
00:14:18.080 Now
00:14:19.080 That we have come to the point
00:14:20.080 Where we agree that there is design
00:14:21.080 I have to prove to you
00:14:22.080 Why there is one god but not 500
00:14:24.080 The floor is yours
00:14:25.080 Thank you very much
00:14:26.080 So we have understood
00:14:27.080 Not for the sake of the argument
00:14:29.080 That there is design behind the universe
00:14:30.080 No no
00:14:31.080 For the sake of the argument
00:14:32.080 No you can't sir
00:14:33.080 How did you come to that conclusion?
00:14:34.080 Because you've
00:14:35.080 No no no no
00:14:36.080 It's frustrating
00:14:37.080 Of course it's frustrating Rob
00:14:38.080 No can I stop you there?
00:14:39.080 Okay
00:14:40.080 Can I stop you there?
00:14:41.080 Listen to him
00:14:42.080 Ali do you come here to learn
00:14:43.080 Or do you come here to talk?
00:14:44.080 That's your favourite question
00:14:45.080 You know Rob
00:14:46.080 You know I'm not like arrogant
00:14:47.080 Well sometimes you sound like it
00:14:48.080 No no no no
00:14:49.080 But now listen
00:14:50.080 Keep quiet let him talk
00:14:51.080 I'm not here to see
00:14:52.080 Every so often you have to stop
00:14:53.080 And let the others speak
00:14:54.080 Especially when they're waving their arms around
00:14:55.080 No
00:14:56.080 I just want to make the point
00:14:57.080 That the spirit in which I mentioned
00:14:59.080 You know the 500th created and so on
00:15:01.080 Was not as a representation of my belief
00:15:03.080 I was simply from the point of view
00:15:06.080 You might call it reductio ad absurdum
00:15:08.080 Taking your whole line of reasoning
00:15:10.080 And showing where it could lead
00:15:12.080 I'm not suggesting for one moment
00:15:14.080 That my belief is that there are 500 or so
00:15:17.080 Or many gods
00:15:18.080 Or indeed that there is such a thing as design
00:15:20.080 I haven't conceded that at all
00:15:21.080 At all
00:15:22.080 So you were then afterwards
00:15:25.080 You went off on a bit
00:15:26.080 And then you came back saying
00:15:27.080 I had conceded that
00:15:28.080 I just want to make clear
00:15:29.080 I haven't at all
00:15:30.080 Okay
00:15:31.080 Anyway carry on
00:15:32.080 Alright okay
00:15:33.080 So
00:15:34.080 I will tell you why you have
00:15:36.080 I'll tell you why you have
00:15:37.080 I think I know where they are
00:15:38.080 Why I believe you have
00:15:40.080 Why you think
00:15:41.080 We looked at the mobile phone
00:15:42.080 We said if you did not go to the factory
00:15:44.080 You would still believe it's designed
00:15:46.080 Because of
00:15:47.080 There's complexity behind it
00:15:48.080 There must be a designer behind it
00:15:50.080 I said to you which is more complex
00:15:52.080 You put your hands up
00:15:53.080 That there must be a designer with a mobile phone
00:15:55.080 I said the mobile phone and the universe
00:15:57.080 The universe is more complex
00:15:58.080 If you can come to a conclusion of a designer
00:16:01.080 Of a mere object like a mobile phone
00:16:03.080 Which is designed as complexity
00:16:04.080 When you said the universe is more complex
00:16:07.080 Because it has the iPhone inside as well
00:16:09.080 One of the reasons
00:16:10.080 I have to come to the conclusion
00:16:11.080 That you
00:16:12.080 Have to understand or accept
00:16:14.080 That there must be a designer behind the universe
00:16:16.080 Otherwise you have to reject the mobile phone
00:16:18.080 Why you accepted the mobile phone
00:16:19.080 No
00:16:20.080 Ali why didn't you listen to the reasons he told you
00:16:22.080 That it was designed
00:16:24.080 Listen to the reasons
00:16:25.080 I don't believe you really understood anything I said
00:16:26.080 I don't know
00:16:27.080 I don't think so either
00:16:28.080 I mean what more can I say
00:16:29.080 How about you
00:16:30.080 Who's the next
00:16:31.080 Andy
00:16:32.080 Andy
00:16:33.080 Andy
00:16:34.080 Andy
00:16:35.080 Why is there no designer behind the universe
00:16:37.080 When it's more complex than the phone
00:16:39.080 Explain that
00:16:40.080 You don't know what my position is
00:16:41.080 My position is that it's beyond our understanding
00:16:44.080 That doesn't mean
00:16:45.080 So therefore we can't
00:16:46.080 But Andy that doesn't mean
00:16:47.080 Definitively say
00:16:48.080 Whether or not there's some entity or something or other that lies behind
00:16:52.080 No problem
00:16:53.080 I'm saying let's come to the
00:16:54.080 Let's come to common agreement
00:16:55.080 Yeah
00:16:56.080 That is there an entity behind it
00:16:58.080 You're saying 500, 2 million, 5 million, 1
00:17:00.080 But is there
00:17:02.080 I'm just saying
00:17:03.080 We don't know
00:17:04.080 Possibly in principle we cannot know
00:17:05.080 Okay I respect that
00:17:06.080 Alright you're saying you don't know
00:17:07.080 But then again I've given you reasons and arguments
00:17:09.080 To come to that
00:17:10.080 To come to an understanding that there must be a designer
00:17:13.080 I'm afraid
00:17:14.080 Because you're saying I don't know
00:17:15.080 They're very poor arguments
00:17:16.080 That's what I try to say
00:17:17.080 That's the thing
00:17:18.080 If you don't read the literature I suggest you start with David Hume
00:17:20.080 I don't understand but let's start off with
00:17:21.080 He's slightly awkward English
00:17:22.080 Because he was 18th century
00:17:23.080 But he sets out the arguments against all these design arguments
00:17:27.080 Andy, Andy, Andy
00:17:28.080 That doesn't mean anything to me
00:17:29.080 You're telling me I don't know
00:17:31.080 Therefore I reject God
00:17:32.080 Like can you imagine
00:17:33.080 Did I say I reject God?
00:17:34.080 Okay let me tell you something
00:17:35.080 For example
00:17:36.080 Just cause you don't know
00:17:37.080 Doesn't mean there is not a designer behind it
00:17:38.080 For example
00:17:39.080 Do you think
00:17:40.080 I'll give you an example
00:17:41.080 Do you think in the rainforest a tree fell
00:17:42.080 Right as we're speaking?
00:17:43.080 About on the basis of one's
00:17:47.080 Like possibility
00:17:48.080 Just a minute
00:17:49.080 On the basis of one's
00:17:50.080 Fairly skimpy knowledge of biology
00:17:52.080 Rainforests
00:17:53.080 In the rainforest
00:17:54.080 And probability
00:17:55.080 I'd say in the interval of
00:17:56.080 And the sight of the Amazon basin
00:17:58.080 I'd say in a decent interval of one minute
00:18:00.080 I'd say there's a pretty good chance of a tree falling
00:18:02.080 Not certainty
00:18:03.080 Not certainty
00:18:04.080 Okay possibility
00:18:05.080 Did you observe the tree being fell
00:18:06.080 And did you hear the tree being fell?
00:18:08.080 Falling
00:18:09.080 No I didn't
00:18:10.080 Just because you did not know
00:18:12.080 Doesn't mean the tree didn't fall
00:18:14.080 So just the way you don't
00:18:15.080 You're saying
00:18:16.080 I don't know
00:18:17.080 Doesn't mean that there's
00:18:18.080 God or a designer
00:18:19.080 Doesn't exist
00:18:20.080 That is pretty much my position
00:18:21.080 Yes
00:18:22.080 Yes but do you understand my position?
00:18:23.080 Just because you don't know
00:18:25.080 Well no I don't
00:18:26.080 Just because you don't know
00:18:27.080 Doesn't mean it does not exist
00:18:28.080 No
00:18:29.080 You can get my point
00:18:30.080 Did you guys understand my point by the way?
00:18:32.080 Stop talking and let him speak
00:18:33.080 I am I am
00:18:34.080 I'm just trying to
00:18:35.080 I'll let him speak
00:18:36.080 I'm being fair Rob
00:18:37.080 You can't put that on me like that
00:18:38.080 You were doing
00:18:39.080 I am listening
00:18:40.080 Going to the audience
00:18:41.080 No but sometimes you need audience
00:18:42.080 You know call a friend
00:18:43.080 Ask the audience
00:18:44.080 Yeah
00:18:45.080 Just with one person
00:18:46.080 Just trying to teach you something
00:18:47.080 Now what's my train of thought?
00:18:49.080 No no no
00:18:50.080 What did you last say?
00:18:51.080 Okay sorry I said basically
00:18:52.080 Because you said look
00:18:53.080 I don't know
00:18:54.080 Meaning
00:18:55.080 Maybe maybe not
00:18:56.080 Yeah
00:18:57.080 You're saying I don't know
00:18:58.080 There might be a designer or not
00:18:59.080 I'm saying
00:19:00.080 Just because you don't know
00:19:01.080 Does not mean that a creator doesn't exist
00:19:04.080 Just because you're not aware
00:19:05.080 Thank you
00:19:06.080 So the best possible explanation
00:19:08.080 That we could come to
00:19:09.080 With simple reasoning
00:19:10.080 Like the plate
00:19:11.080 Is that there is a designer
00:19:12.080 Right
00:19:13.080 Okay
00:19:14.080 So I have to say
00:19:16.080 Based on my intellect
00:19:19.080 And my reading of these various arguments
00:19:22.080 Is that you're
00:19:23.080 With respect
00:19:24.080 Your arguing is full of gaps
00:19:26.080 And I know you like to say
00:19:28.080 Keep it simple and so on
00:19:29.080 But unfortunately
00:19:30.080 It's inherently complex
00:19:31.080 And that's why philosophers
00:19:33.080 Even today go on and on and on
00:19:34.080 About these sort of things
00:19:35.080 Because somebody always finds
00:19:36.080 You know
00:19:37.080 A different angle on these things
00:19:38.080 So in other words
00:19:39.080 There's no certainty
00:19:40.080 So I have no problem at all
00:19:42.080 And you will find
00:19:44.080 Good thinkers
00:19:45.080 Good philosophers
00:19:46.080 Defending teleological arguments
00:19:48.080 They do
00:19:49.080 It's not a problem
00:19:50.080 Rob and I perhaps
00:19:51.080 And John and others
00:19:52.080 Will take an opposite position
00:19:54.080 So that mere fact
00:19:56.080 That one can
00:19:57.080 We can stand here
00:19:58.080 Or they can sit in their studies
00:20:00.080 In Oxford and Cambridge
00:20:01.080 Chewing these over
00:20:02.080 Suggests it's not like
00:20:04.080 An empirical science
00:20:05.080 For example
00:20:06.080 Where you establish
00:20:07.080 That the earth goes round the sun
00:20:08.080 And everybody agrees with it
00:20:09.080 Apart from a few nutters
00:20:11.080 There's certain facts
00:20:12.080 Now this design or not
00:20:15.080 Is not one of those facts
00:20:17.080 That can yet
00:20:18.080 Can be deduced
00:20:19.080 Now maybe in the future
00:20:20.080 The cosmologists will come back to us
00:20:22.080 And say look
00:20:23.080 There's a really good thing about this
00:20:24.080 And to tell you the truth
00:20:25.080 There's only one answer
00:20:27.080 God didn't
00:20:28.080 At the moment
00:20:29.080 It's nothing like that
00:20:30.080 There's nothing like that position at all
00:20:31.080 So we're trying to use
00:20:33.080 Principles from pure reason
00:20:35.080 If you like
00:20:36.080 And analogies
00:20:37.080 Now I wanted to get back to what
00:20:38.080 When you mean there's
00:20:39.080 Sorry to cut
00:20:40.080 You know when you said
00:20:41.080 There's nothing
00:20:42.080 No reasoning like that
00:20:43.080 To suggest it's a creator
00:20:44.080 There is many scientists out there
00:20:45.080 Who are theists
00:20:47.080 So for you to say
00:20:48.080 There isn't
00:20:49.080 You're just saying all the sciences
00:20:50.080 You're making it seem like
00:20:51.080 Every scientist is an atheist
00:20:52.080 No they're not
00:20:53.080 Most of them
00:20:54.080 Like most of them
00:20:55.080 They find good
00:20:56.080 I'm just not about you
00:20:57.080 Please listen to what I'm saying
00:20:58.080 Okay sorry
00:20:59.080 When I mentioned something
00:21:00.080 I mentioned cosmologists
00:21:01.080 There's a specific area
00:21:03.080 One of the specific areas
00:21:04.080 That talks about origins
00:21:05.080 And the nature of the universe
00:21:06.080 And its antiquity
00:21:08.080 And
00:21:09.080 There will be some theistic cosmologists
00:21:12.080 I've never done a sample
00:21:13.080 I don't know
00:21:14.080 I suspect a lot of them are agnostics
00:21:16.080 But they will
00:21:17.080 Some of them will take for example
00:21:19.080 Evidence like the big bang
00:21:20.080 As being
00:21:21.080 Arguments
00:21:22.080 In favour of there being a god
00:21:24.080 Others
00:21:25.080 Not
00:21:26.080 They'll have a different conception
00:21:27.080 But I don't think there's any sort of
00:21:29.080 Consensus
00:21:30.080 Such as there is say
00:21:32.080 In basic astronomy
00:21:34.080 That says the earth goes round the sun
00:21:36.080 I mean
00:21:37.080 You'd have to be a complete fool
00:21:38.080 To disagree with that one
00:21:39.080 So in other words
00:21:40.080 What I'm pointing to
00:21:41.080 Is areas of disagreement
00:21:42.080 Now
00:21:43.080 Why is that the case
00:21:45.080 Why are there these areas of disagreement
00:21:47.080 Because
00:21:48.080 In other areas of science
00:21:49.080 Where there's good observational evidence
00:21:51.080 Like the earth going round the sun
00:21:52.080 It's
00:21:53.080 You make predictions
00:21:55.080 The predictions come true
00:21:57.080 And
00:21:58.080 Everybody agrees
00:21:59.080 That's the best model
00:22:00.080 It's not the case
00:22:02.080 With cosmology
00:22:03.080 Or
00:22:04.080 Biology say
00:22:05.080 That's another area
00:22:06.080 Because you might claim
00:22:07.080 That it needs god to
00:22:08.080 Feed life
00:22:09.080 Into
00:22:10.080 Dead matter
00:22:11.080 Well again that's an area of active research
00:22:12.080 We don't know yet
00:22:13.080 And there are huge advances being made on early life
00:22:16.080 That suggest that it is perfectly feasible
00:22:18.080 For life to arise from
00:22:20.080 Inner matter
00:22:21.080 But we don't know yet
00:22:22.080 Right
00:22:23.080 So I think we're kind of jumping on the gun
00:22:24.080 There may or may not come a time
00:22:26.080 In the future
00:22:27.080 I understand
00:22:28.080 Where the body of scientists
00:22:30.080 Cosmologists
00:22:31.080 If every cosmologist on the planet says
00:22:33.080 Look after all this thinking
00:22:34.080 We've been doing for 200 years
00:22:36.080 Since Einstein
00:22:38.080 We all agree
00:22:39.080 That there must have been a god
00:22:41.080 If they all say that
00:22:42.080 So you need
00:22:43.080 I will probably go with the show
00:22:44.080 Okay so you need 200 scientists
00:22:45.080 But it may be a deist
00:22:46.080 No but this is like
00:22:47.080 It's like you're making the scene
00:22:48.080 In 200 years
00:22:49.080 In 200 years
00:22:50.080 You're making these scientists
00:22:51.080 Like your prophets
00:22:52.080 It's like they're your prophets
00:22:53.080 It's like a religion
00:22:54.080 You know why
00:22:55.080 Because you're saying
00:22:56.080 If they come and affirm to me
00:22:57.080 I'm saying you like
00:22:58.080 Because the reason why
00:22:59.080 You're deifying them
00:23:00.080 It's like you've made them a god
00:23:01.080 Because you know why
00:23:02.080 You're relying on them
00:23:03.080 And saying hey
00:23:04.080 If they come to me
00:23:05.080 And say to me
00:23:06.080 That there is a god
00:23:07.080 Then I'll be like hmm
00:23:08.080 Okay I'm saying
00:23:09.080 Why do you need
00:23:10.080 A group of scientists
00:23:11.080 We don't need experts
00:23:12.080 No no no no
00:23:13.080 No no no no no
00:23:14.080 No no no we do
00:23:15.080 We do need experts
00:23:16.080 Tell me that next time you go to the dentist
00:23:17.080 No no no no
00:23:18.080 Don't need an expert
00:23:19.080 No no no no
00:23:20.080 I'm not saying that
00:23:21.080 I'm not saying that
00:23:22.080 In Islam we believe
00:23:23.080 And we respect scientists
00:23:24.080 Who do their job
00:23:25.080 They tell us how things work
00:23:26.080 Not when it suits me
00:23:27.080 Not when it suits me
00:23:28.080 Not when it suits me
00:23:29.080 We respect them
00:23:30.080 Because they're doing the job
00:23:31.080 But like Allah says in the Quran
00:23:32.080 Don't you ponder upon my creation
00:23:34.080 So scientists who go and ponder
00:23:36.080 And tell us how things work
00:23:37.080 We appreciate that
00:23:38.080 We appreciate it
00:23:39.080 But if they come and say
00:23:40.080 This came by chance or nothing
00:23:41.080 I'll say I respect you
00:23:42.080 But I don't agree with you
00:23:43.080 The same reason I'm doing that
00:23:44.080 I'm not going to say hey
00:23:45.080 Let me chop your head off
00:23:46.080 So one second
00:23:48.080 What you did Andy
00:23:50.080 Was you start telling me things
00:23:52.080 Which went over on a tangent
00:23:54.080 Because I'm telling you
00:23:56.080 I was telling you
00:23:57.080 I understood where you come from
00:23:58.080 You spoke about a lot of things
00:23:59.080 And you're telling me about
00:24:00.080 These different opinions
00:24:01.080 Blah blah blah
00:24:02.080 But my main crux of the thing
00:24:04.080 Is that the universe
00:24:06.080 Right?
00:24:07.080 I'm talking about the universe
00:24:08.080 Give me the best explanation
00:24:10.080 For the universe
00:24:11.080 Just like you did with the plate
00:24:12.080 Smashed on the floor
00:24:13.080 What is the best explanation
00:24:15.080 Of the universe being designed?
00:24:17.080 Since we've come to the conclusion
00:24:18.080 With the phones
00:24:19.080 What is it?
00:24:20.080 No no no no no no
00:24:21.080 What is it?
00:24:22.080 No but you've done that with the plate
00:24:23.080 With the plate you said
00:24:24.080 Look you said earthquake
00:24:25.080 Blah blah blah this that
00:24:26.080 I'm saying simple reasoning
00:24:27.080 Simple reasoning
00:24:28.080 The complexity we talked about
00:24:30.080 And the design behind the universe
00:24:31.080 What is the best possible explanation
00:24:33.080 That you can come up with?
00:24:34.080 Me?
00:24:35.080 Yes you
00:24:36.080 I'm not a cosmologist
00:24:37.080 You don't need to
00:24:38.080 What I can do?
00:24:39.080 Am I a cosmologist?
00:24:40.080 Just repeat to you
00:24:41.080 What I've seen on YouTube
00:24:42.080 And read in the book
00:24:43.080 No no no no
00:24:44.080 Andy
00:24:45.080 I'm not talking to the scientist behind you
00:24:46.080 Andy
00:24:47.080 Simple reasoning
00:24:48.080 Look the plate
00:24:49.080 Yeah?
00:24:50.080 Just the universe is here
00:24:51.080 It works
00:24:52.080 The universe works
00:24:53.080 Can we go back to analogy again?
00:24:54.080 No no no
00:24:55.080 We are
00:24:56.080 You see I'm trying to make a point here
00:24:58.080 But why are you jumping somewhere else
00:24:59.080 I'll listen to your analogy
00:25:00.080 Because
00:25:01.080 Let me address this topic first
00:25:02.080 Give me the best explanation for the universe
00:25:04.080 Why did you introduce the plate?
00:25:05.080 No no no
00:25:06.080 Because
00:25:07.080 Because
00:25:08.080 Because with a simple plate
00:25:09.080 You've come to simple conclusions
00:25:10.080 Yeah
00:25:11.080 With the universe
00:25:12.080 Which is more complex than that plate
00:25:14.080 And is here
00:25:15.080 And it's working
00:25:16.080 What is your best explanation?
00:25:17.080 We should have a simple conclusion
00:25:19.080 Why does our plate
00:25:20.080 Yeah yeah simple conclusion
00:25:21.080 That's why you need to explain to him
00:25:22.080 Why the analogy is a problem
00:25:23.080 Because he's using the analogy incorrectly
00:25:25.080 And thinking
00:25:26.080 Oh well the two of them are just so simple
00:25:27.080 You keep saying incorrectly
00:25:28.080 But you don't answer that question
00:25:29.080 So I've asked the question
00:25:30.080 You'll have to tell me
00:25:31.080 Why
00:25:32.080 Why considering a plate
00:25:33.080 Has any relevance whatsoever
00:25:35.080 With considering the origins
00:25:36.080 Or otherwise of the universe
00:25:38.080 Because
00:25:39.080 What's the linkage?
00:25:40.080 Because if the universe
00:25:41.080 There's
00:25:42.080 There's cause and effect
00:25:43.080 Right?
00:25:44.080 If the universe
00:25:45.080 Yes
00:25:46.080 Everything
00:25:47.080 That has a cause
00:25:48.080 There's an effect
00:25:49.080 Yeah?
00:25:50.080 Everything?
00:25:51.080 Yes
00:25:52.080 Everything that has started
00:25:53.080 Everything
00:25:54.080 Everything that has started
00:25:55.080 To begin
00:25:56.080 Started to exist
00:25:57.080 Has a cause behind it
00:25:59.080 Right?
00:26:00.080 How would you characterize the universe?
00:26:01.080 Or what would you say
00:26:02.080 What would you characterize the universe?
00:26:03.080 It's
00:26:04.080 What is it?
00:26:05.080 It's a universe
00:26:06.080 What do you want to say?
00:26:07.080 What do you want to say?
00:26:08.080 Well it's
00:26:09.080 It's
00:26:10.080 It's
00:26:11.080 No I don't know
00:26:12.080 I never say to you
00:26:13.080 I know everything
00:26:14.080 I'm using
00:26:15.080 No no no
00:26:16.080 Because
00:26:17.080 In my understanding
00:26:18.080 I have simple reasoning
00:26:19.080 Yeah with the universe
00:26:20.080 It either came from nothing
00:26:21.080 It either created itself
00:26:22.080 Or it was created
00:26:24.080 Is there any other option
00:26:26.080 Is there any other option
00:26:27.080 That you can put in here?
00:26:28.080 I can't come to anything else
00:26:29.080 With a plate falling
00:26:30.080 Earthquake
00:26:31.080 Cat
00:26:32.080 Whatever whatever
00:26:33.080 Simple reason
00:26:34.080 I would not say
00:26:35.080 A blue dragon flew through
00:26:36.080 Flew through my house
00:26:37.080 And tipped it over
00:26:38.080 So with the universe
00:26:39.080 Either came from nothing
00:26:40.080 It either created itself
00:26:41.080 Or it's created
00:26:42.080 Or it's always been there
00:26:43.080 Huh?
00:26:44.080 Or it's always been there
00:26:45.080 No how how?
00:26:46.080 Where's the evidence to that?
00:26:47.080 Where's the evidence to that?
00:26:48.080 No no no no
00:26:49.080 No no no
00:26:50.080 No no no
00:26:51.080 But where's the evidence to that?
00:26:52.080 Because if something is there
00:26:53.080 Look
00:26:54.080 Infinite in the real world
00:26:55.080 Doesn't exist
00:26:56.080 If I said
00:26:57.080 I have an infinite amount of bananas
00:26:58.080 And I put one banana
00:26:59.080 Took one banana out
00:27:00.080 How many bananas do I have?
00:27:04.080 It doesn't exist in the real world
00:27:05.080 It doesn't
00:27:06.080 The universe is like
00:27:07.080 First of all it looks like place
00:27:08.080 Now it looks like bananas
00:27:09.080 It's also like
00:27:09.580 Exactly
00:27:10.080 It seems to have some very strange
00:27:11.080 About ideas
00:27:12.080 Yes
00:27:13.080 I'm actually going to say
00:27:14.080 It stands on top of a pile of tortoise
00:27:15.080 Not really I never said that
00:27:16.080 I never said that
00:27:17.080 I never said that bananas created the universe
00:27:18.080 I'm giving you an example
00:27:19.080 Not wrong
00:27:20.080 You don't want to get that
00:27:21.080 Yeah but you keep saying
00:27:22.080 Yeah but the thing is
00:27:23.080 Andy you and Rob
00:27:24.080 You and Rob keep saying
00:27:25.080 It's wrong, it's wrong, it's wrong
00:27:26.080 I'm not addressing my
00:27:27.080 What he's saying is wrong
00:27:28.080 Is the analogy is wrong
00:27:29.080 If the analogy is wrong
00:27:30.080 Why don't you
00:27:31.080 You might be a creator
00:27:32.080 But the analogy you're using is wrong
00:27:33.080 Listen, listen, listen
00:27:34.080 If it's wrong
00:27:35.080 Then why do you not address it?
00:27:37.080 He's addressed
00:27:38.080 But you're not listening
00:27:39.080 No you're not
00:27:40.080 I said to you
00:27:41.080 Okay look
00:27:42.080 He said to me
00:27:43.080 Let's suppose that there is 500 gods
00:27:44.080 Why?
00:27:45.080 Why did you suppose?
00:27:46.080 Because that was your analogy
00:27:47.080 Can he not say to me
00:27:48.080 You know what?
00:27:49.080 There can't be a universe
00:27:50.080 And the reason
00:27:51.080 I mean there can't be a designer
00:27:52.080 The reason why there can't be a designer
00:27:53.080 Bang, bang, bang, bang
00:27:54.080 Tell me
00:27:55.080 Because you are using the analogy
00:27:56.080 Shall we go with your analogy?
00:27:57.080 Refute my analogy
00:27:58.080 Say to me Ali
00:27:59.080 It's wrong
00:28:00.080 Wait a minute
00:28:01.080 I don't want to say
00:28:02.080 There can't be a designer
00:28:03.080 I thought I made it clear
00:28:04.080 Okay
00:28:05.080 Okay
00:28:06.080 So you're agnostic
00:28:07.080 I'm saying that we don't know enough at the moment
00:28:08.080 Okay
00:28:09.080 To say whether or not there is
00:28:10.080 So you're an agnostic
00:28:11.080 You don't know
00:28:12.080 He's different to him
00:28:13.080 Rob says
00:28:14.080 Okay, okay
00:28:15.080 Apparently not so different
00:28:16.080 As far as I know
00:28:17.080 You don't believe there's enough evidence to assume that there's a designer
00:28:19.080 Correct
00:28:20.080 Yes
00:28:21.080 And so do I agree with that?
00:28:22.080 How are we agnostic?
00:28:23.080 I'm not worried
00:28:24.080 Because I do not
00:28:25.080 I do not
00:28:26.080 I do not produce arguments to claim to prove there is no God
00:28:29.080 But Andy I've given you an argument
00:28:30.080 I will not give you arguments to disprove
00:28:32.080 Yeah but Andy I've given you an argument
00:28:33.080 Which we haven't moved on to
00:28:34.080 Yeah
00:28:35.080 I've given you a mobile phone and the universe
00:28:36.080 Tell me why the universe is not designed
00:28:38.080 What is that?
00:28:39.080 Well, what?
00:28:40.080 Thank you
00:28:55.080 You