Ali Dawah - DID SATAN TRICK CHRISTIANS!？ - JACK & ALI DISCUSS

00:00:00.000 If God is telling us to worship him alone, Satan's job is going to be what? The whole opposite?

00:00:04.000 Yeah, I do. So this is where we're saying maybe...

00:00:06.700 I completely agree with that, by the way.

00:00:08.020 Yeah, exactly. So do you not think, as a Muslim, that our Christian friends have fallen for the trap of Satan?

00:00:13.840 Sure, sure. How is it that I can be good enough for God?

00:00:16.520 Well, I can't, because God's holy mountain, in the sense of how can I be pure infinity?

00:00:21.220 And in that sense, there's the concept of imputed righteousness.

00:00:24.480 For example, if I was to say to you, okay, is Jesus fully God?

00:00:28.580 Yes.

00:00:28.820 Is he fully man?

00:00:30.000 Yes.

00:00:30.440 So a lot of people watching this will be like, how?

00:00:33.100 Sure.

00:00:36.200 Check out our sponsors, Nature's Blends.

00:00:38.920 They specialize in premium Ethiopian black seed products.

00:00:41.660 Their products are fantastic health supplements and also from the sunnah.

00:00:45.340 The website is in the description link below.

00:00:47.340 You can also use the discount code SALAM10 for 10% of their products.

00:00:52.920 But what I would say is that, for example, because God Almighty is...

00:00:58.820 God Almighty is the source and he's infinite and there is nothing like him.

00:01:03.020 There is no comparison to him.

00:01:05.040 So what I see in Christianity is that God, man, is mortal.

00:01:08.680 Man is finite.

00:01:10.720 God Almighty is infinite.

00:01:12.060 That's correct.

00:01:12.220 And there's something in between, which is Jesus, which is, he's man, but he's also God.

00:01:18.140 So it's like, and this is where...

00:01:19.380 I can explain the necessity of that.

00:01:20.340 Exactly.

00:01:20.820 But we believe in Islam, there is no... 1.00

00:01:24.460 We don't need it.

00:01:26.760 There is no need for it.

00:01:27.560 And that's the reason why Islam came. 1.00

00:01:28.940 Now, when I say Islam came, Islam has been there from day one.

00:01:31.320 We believe from Adam, peace be upon him, to Prophet Muhammad, Islam has been there. 0.50

00:01:35.640 In the context of Islam's main purpose is to come and tell people to stop worshipping idols and gods 0.99

00:01:40.900 and attributing God's attributes to mankind.

00:01:45.160 Because that's the main fundamental thing Islam has come to do. 0.98

00:01:47.700 And what, as human beings, we do is because we worship God Almighty, and it's not something

00:01:53.440 that we can empirically see, what happens is, as human beings, we tend to want to see...

00:01:58.480 Like, when we're grateful to people, it's because we see them.

00:02:01.220 We see the things they're doing for us.

00:02:02.540 So we're like, okay, you know what?

00:02:03.600 Thank you.

00:02:04.720 We thank God, but the thing is, because we can't see him, and that is the whole test of life,

00:02:09.760 you're worshipping him without him seeing.

00:02:11.380 So that's why you see a lot of people, be it the pagans, be it, for example...

00:02:15.560 We can agree on that we don't like it.

00:02:16.800 Yeah, so if you see them, for example, that what have they done?

00:02:20.120 Oh, like the pagan Arabs would say the same thing. 1.00

00:02:22.440 We believe God, the ultimate power.

00:02:25.060 We just use these statues to get closer to him.

00:02:28.080 So what happens is, you feel inferior.

00:02:30.480 I'm a sinner.

00:02:31.540 I don't know, how can I talk to someone?

00:02:33.000 God, he's pure.

00:02:34.140 I know.

00:02:34.780 If I can go through someone else who's done the job, or he's closer, this is where Satan

00:02:40.580 tricks us.

00:02:41.700 Because what he does is, we want to see something empirically.

00:02:44.420 Okay, that's a statue.

00:02:45.160 I can touch.

00:02:46.000 I can feel.

00:02:46.800 Yeah, it gives me good powers.

00:02:48.360 Some people who carry certain things, like, oh yeah, for good luck.

00:02:51.200 Why?

00:02:51.720 Because this is...

00:02:52.520 They're a tangible security.

00:02:53.560 Exactly.

00:02:54.280 But as human beings, what God is telling us is, have trust in me.

00:02:57.960 You can't see me, but I'm with you.

00:03:00.400 I'm closer to you than your jugular vein.

00:03:01.980 So what Islam has come to say is, look, you do not require, or it doesn't necessarily require

00:03:07.940 for you to have another person who is divine.

00:03:11.360 Because firstly, it doesn't go with our fitrah.

00:03:14.040 Because the Trinity, for example, if I was to say to you, okay, is Jesus fully God?

00:03:18.940 Yes.

00:03:19.360 Is he fully man?

00:03:20.440 Yes.

00:03:20.800 So a lot of people watching this will be like, how?

00:03:23.460 Sure.

00:03:23.940 Do you get what I'm trying to say?

00:03:24.780 So in that context, what we're saying is...

00:03:26.640 I would make the same argument that you said.

00:03:28.780 I mean, one can explain, I think, the necessity of these positions.

00:03:34.020 But just as much as the Quran, and I think the Bible and the Quran both at times appeal

00:03:38.360 to mystery.

00:03:38.960 I do believe, actually, the word mystery is invented by the early Christians.

00:03:41.800 But we can't know the essence of God.

00:03:44.240 I completely agree with you.

00:03:45.920 And the Bible doesn't, in that sense, claim to know the essence of God.

00:03:48.780 It claims to, as it were, say who or where it is in Christ.

00:03:53.600 It doesn't elucidate, like, a definition of God.

00:03:57.280 God has, in that sense, many names.

00:04:02.240 I forget how I started.

00:04:04.000 Sorry.

00:04:04.380 Oh, sorry, yeah.

00:04:04.940 So basically, we were saying, why do, like, Islam's main purpose was to come to tell 0.88

00:04:08.480 mankind to worship God alone without any human statue, you name it.

00:04:14.200 God's main essence, and what he wants from us, is that.

00:04:17.000 And Satan's main job is this.

00:04:18.600 If God is telling us to worship him alone, Satan's job is going to be, what, the whole

00:04:22.420 opposite, to make, so, so this is where we're saying, maybe.

00:04:25.400 I completely agree with that, by the way.

00:04:26.680 Yeah, exactly.

00:04:27.220 So do you not think, as a Muslim, that our Christian friends have fallen for the trap

00:04:31.960 of Satan, maybe, tell me if I'm wrong, that Satan has come and made it seem like,

00:04:36.720 okay, look, we need salvation, we need someone to die for our sins, we need, so God Almighty

00:04:41.840 came to earth to take that burden on board.

00:04:43.560 And we're saying, the second commandment, the third commandment is, I, God, I'm a jealous

00:04:47.280 to him.

00:04:47.620 No, please, please.

00:04:48.300 Oh, sorry.

00:04:49.100 Yeah, yeah, sure.

00:04:50.500 If you want to, okay.

00:04:51.880 No, no, it's fine, it's all right.

00:04:52.800 Okay, no problem.

00:04:53.280 Have you got a Quran?

00:04:54.220 Can I give this to you?

00:04:55.380 I have a Quran, actually, here.

00:04:56.920 Okay.

00:04:57.480 I have one around.

00:04:58.280 I would say, maybe use, like, the back page for notes, if you want.

00:05:01.040 Oh, no, I just meant for this conversation.

00:05:02.160 Okay, no problem, no problem.

00:05:03.080 Yeah.

00:05:03.360 So, what we're saying is, that God Almighty is telling us to worship him and him alone.

00:05:09.760 Yeah.

00:05:10.000 And we believe that goes aligned with our essence, because I want to worship, for example,

00:05:15.200 sometimes I speak to Christians, and ex-Christians who have accepted Islam, or who have left,

00:05:19.780 they would say, one thing I didn't know was, who, okay, I ask in the name of the Father,

00:05:26.280 I ask the Father in the name of Jesus, but okay, where does the Holy Spirit come into it?

00:05:30.600 Okay, so it's just a bit of confusion, because what we say is, our deep essence wants to worship

00:05:35.980 one Almighty, ask him alone, go to him alone, and that's what, as Muslims, we're just asking,

00:05:41.080 we're just saying, let's come to common terms, that we worship God alone.

00:05:45.120 I think, the, first of all, I think it's a good place to start, is that I, I, and, well,

00:05:52.520 of course, I'm hesitant to speak for Christians, but in this conversation, I suppose I'm proxy

00:05:56.840 to it, that a hatred of idolatry is, I mean, probably, perhaps the strongest, most emphatic,

00:06:04.880 in the Old Testament, in the Old Testament, oh, very much so, and, you know, every time

00:06:11.300 that Israel is punished, is because she, and she's depicted as the bride, as God's bride,

00:06:17.200 I think it's Ezekiel 37, 36, is a particular example, and hence God punishes her, I mean,

00:06:22.760 and this is, or, you know, the famous case of the golden calf in Exodus, again, that's very,

00:06:29.400 and it shows the inclination of men, sometimes, like, oh, we need something, you know what I'm

00:06:34.080 saying?

00:06:34.220 Yeah, yeah, I think Romans, it's Romans, either chapter one or two, embarrassing, I can't

00:06:38.200 recall, where Paul writes, right, right, Paul writes of the proclivity of man to worship

00:06:45.240 created things, he says, men have begun to worship things that crawl on the ground, created 0.51

00:06:50.720 things, and God has cursed them as a result, and that's true, you know, these are things

00:06:56.900 that Christians would share, and I think in that sense, the sentiment is honourable and

00:07:02.800 in many ways, it's what the Jews claim to be doing now, is that they would see the worship

00:07:08.080 of, falsely, but they would see the worship of Jesus as a kind of idolatry.

00:07:14.540 Exactly, that's why we and the Jews, we have a common understanding, because we're both

00:07:19.240 saying, look, they reject Jesus totally, we affirm Jesus.

00:07:23.680 Well, well, well, yeah, you don't affirm in the way we do.

00:07:27.460 We affirm Jesus, which we believe is a real Jesus, and you would say the same, you would

00:07:31.820 say that's not the real Jesus.

00:07:32.760 Sure, well, it depends on what we think he said, right?

00:07:37.220 I think the thing, so having said that, the thing to emphasise, I suspect, is why is it

00:07:43.700 necessary for there to be a divine mediator?

00:07:46.300 Why is it, what is the, you could say, what is the metaphysical purpose in many ways of

00:07:51.340 Christ?

00:07:52.300 And I guess one could look at it from this point of view, that one of the things that

00:07:56.120 the Old Testament is very clear on, and that we forget, is the holiness of God, that is,

00:08:02.440 and in that sense also the otherness of him, that if one touches God's holy mountain, one

00:08:06.640 dies.

00:08:07.380 If one sees God, one dies.

00:08:10.080 Isaiah says, you know, woe is me, and God appears to him in life, right?

00:08:14.040 My eyes have seen the Lord, and, you know, I'm unclean.

00:08:16.600 And this is quite right.

00:08:17.640 It makes perfect sense.

00:08:18.980 It's glorifying.

00:08:19.800 Indeed.

00:08:20.820 Before infinite beauty, everything is ugly.

00:08:25.960 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:08:26.520 As Shakespeare writes, the more fair and crystal is the sky, the uglier the clouds, the dead

00:08:31.180 in it fly.

00:08:31.720 That's nice.

00:08:32.340 It's Henry II.

00:08:33.180 I like that.

00:08:35.260 Beautiful lie.

00:08:36.720 Thanks, Shakespeare.

00:08:37.420 Do you want to have a conversation with me afterwards?

00:08:38.960 Sure.

00:08:39.320 I think the thing to note, though, then, is that how, then, can anyone be saved?

00:08:45.280 This is precisely, now, please don't interrupt me, precisely because of God's, thank you,

00:08:51.580 precisely because of God's infinitude, his holiness, and we can argue this if I were to

00:08:57.860 speak from just purely sort of philosophical terms.

00:09:00.140 If God is the good, right, I would say, now, therefore, he is also infinite, right?

00:09:07.440 If God is infinite, then, by definition, we are inadequate, right?

00:09:13.540 Because that's the nature of any moral standard.

00:09:15.680 Relative to the moral standard, we are inadequate.

00:09:17.740 And, therefore, almost just on kind of quasi-mathematical terms, we can never be good enough.

00:09:23.000 And, which means that, in order to say that anyone can be saved, one has to either posit

00:09:29.440 a level of good enoughness, which I think Islam tacitly does, or one has to posit a kind 0.92

00:09:35.260 of mediator.

00:09:36.360 And, the Christian, therefore, would say, we posit a mediator, which is to say that...

00:09:40.460 I'm very curious.

00:09:42.200 Sure.

00:09:42.940 Sure.

00:09:43.340 How is it that I can be good enough for God?

00:09:45.000 Well, I can't, because God's holy mountain, in the sense of, how can I be pure infinity?

00:09:49.060 And, in that sense, there's the concept of imputed righteousness, which is the notion

00:09:53.600 of being in Christ, in a sort of prepositional sense.

00:09:58.460 If one looks at Ephesians chapters 1 and 2, particularly Ephesians 2, verse 9, you know,

00:10:07.220 and this is given to you, this gift from God, that you can, by grace, that no man may boast.

00:10:14.280 Hence, again, the emphasis in Protestant denomination of a lack of works.

00:10:21.000 Not that one shouldn't work, but the notion that, how can you reach infinitude?

00:10:25.320 That this is why the mediator is necessary.

00:10:28.660 So, I guess that's, you could say, the necessity of it, and the man being made in the image

00:10:33.680 of God, is the ontological bedrock on which this possibility can rest.

00:10:38.360 Okay.

00:10:38.480 And, again, where Islam and Christianity would differ.

00:10:42.060 So, I think that's, I think I've made my argument.

00:10:45.180 Can I add something that's very profound?

00:10:46.960 What you said there, it's very profound, because you deem the necessity of an intermediary

00:10:53.200 to be the cause, because as how holy God is in his majesty, and we believe that all beautiful

00:11:01.540 names belong to him, and because as human beings, we're sinful, and, you know, we're

00:11:06.880 not at that level, and this is exactly the very purpose and the nature why Islam came 1.00

00:11:13.360 down, because God Almighty is saying, there's a hadith of the Prophet, peace be upon him,

00:11:17.220 he said, if mankind was to commit sins as high as the skies and the mountains, I will forgive

00:11:22.620 every single one of them, as long as they do not associate partners with me.

00:11:26.820 So, what God, in essence, is saying, is that, look, I know you're a sinner.

00:11:31.980 There's also another hadith of the Prophet who said, the Prophet, peace be upon him, said

00:11:35.300 that, God Almighty said to him, that, if mankind was not to sin, I will destroy them, bring

00:11:42.100 forth another nation that sins, but repents.

00:11:45.480 Now, this is interesting.

00:11:46.580 That is interesting.

00:11:47.640 That's very interesting.

00:11:48.100 So, is that, is God saying to me that I should sin?

00:11:50.360 The point here is this, what God is saying is this, I know you're going to sin.

00:11:54.700 Okay, the point here is this, I want you to acknowledge that you have a Lord that's

00:12:00.480 forgiving and turn to him.

00:12:02.600 So, God's saying, I don't want you to be infallible.

00:12:04.320 From the get-go, God's not saying, I want you to be infallible.

00:12:06.540 You're going to sin, because if he was not to sin, then you're going to be, you're going

00:12:09.620 to be thinking like, this is what a lot of Christians attribute, Jesus was sinless.

00:12:12.960 That's why it makes him divine.

00:12:14.280 So, do you see, that's the reason why God wants us to be, not wants us, God knows we're

00:12:19.300 going to sin.

00:12:19.800 And that's why, it's very important that God is telling us, look, you are here, I still

00:12:26.160 love you.

00:12:26.980 I still, I'm merciful to you.

00:12:29.080 You don't need to go through another day to anybody.

00:12:31.820 Turn to me alone.

00:12:33.260 So, do you see why we say that the human psyche is saying, I'm not good enough.

00:12:38.040 How can I, his majesty, look at me, I'm a little peasant.

00:12:40.760 How can I?

00:12:41.440 God's saying, I embrace you.

00:12:45.100 God's saying, I embrace you.

00:12:46.780 Nobody needs to die for your sins.

00:12:48.280 Nobody, you don't need to go through into me, whoever it may be, a statue.

00:12:51.860 Right.

00:12:52.100 So, this is the essence of Islam.

00:12:53.360 Yeah, I think, I think the, I'll give you the last word.

00:12:55.360 Sure, thank you.

00:12:56.180 Oh, that's very generous of you.

00:12:57.320 I have enjoyed this conversation.

00:12:58.720 You did amazing, Jagar.

00:12:59.660 Brilliant.

00:13:00.320 Thank you.

00:13:01.340 I think the, the key issue here would be a question of justice, which is why I think,

00:13:09.940 I mean, it's often looked upon, nobody likes to hear about judgment and justice.

00:13:13.700 I mean, and anybody that does is delusional.

00:13:17.720 Well, I mean, it is, it is a blessing to know that evil in the world will meet its just

00:13:23.560 desert, because a God that doesn't judge is a God that doesn't care.

00:13:28.540 And this is, I think, really the refutation of, you know, that the atheist argument says,

00:13:34.040 it's so unfair that God judges, et cetera, or that God would do this, is what's the alternative?

00:13:40.040 A God that doesn't care about justice, not particularly nice.

00:13:44.980 The, I think the, the key thing here is that in turning to Christ and moving to live in

00:13:52.960 him in this, in this way that I think Ephesians, I mean, it's, it's throughout the New Testament,

00:13:57.640 but Ephesians chapter one and two illustrate, and with Christ's position, particularly clearing

00:14:02.780 Colossians one, 15 to 20, is this idea that if one doesn't turn to Christ and woe and betide

00:14:09.660 those that don't, and you know, when this is the, the basic task of Christians on earth

00:14:13.700 is to point to God and his, his endless love for those that come to him, is that there

00:14:20.420 is justice done.

00:14:21.700 And so the, the idea that one can be forgiven without justice being done, I think would be

00:14:29.960 my argument for why there's judgment, not only is judgment, it's coming for those that

00:14:35.900 don't repent.

00:14:38.620 But, but it's also that the sins that I committed, that I still commit, Christ is taken on the

00:14:50.060 cross, but this is so important that he does take them on the cross, because otherwise, otherwise

00:14:55.860 it's what, what's, what am I to say about my sin?

00:14:58.120 Okay.

00:14:58.540 So this, this is the nature of why just, and it's, it's, it's, it's, you know, an absurd

00:15:03.000 scandal that all of the evil I've done in my life is taken on, taken on by Christ, and

00:15:08.440 this is really, understanding that is, is, is what brings forth the, the sort of devotion

00:15:13.720 that Christians have to, have to God. 0.96

00:15:15.620 Can, can God not forgive you?

00:15:17.680 Um, oh, he can.

00:15:18.720 But the thing is, forgiveness, on its own, means that judge, justice sort of dies.

00:15:25.180 No, there'll be judgment, there'll be judgment, like, you'll be accountable, but we'll ask,

00:15:29.020 we'll have to answer to the sins that you've done.

00:15:31.120 My sins.

00:15:31.900 All of our sins.

00:15:32.640 But you see, how, but the thing is, I can't answer to the sins I've done, in the sense that

00:15:37.460 I would go to hell, and, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, because

00:15:39.940 I couldn't be good enough.

00:15:40.920 But God, God's saying, I, you need to answer, in Islam, God, we go into paradise, is not 0.99

00:15:48.460 based on our actions alone.

00:15:50.220 If God doesn't have mercy, it's by God's mercy.

00:15:52.660 Let me make this very straight.

00:15:53.660 Sure.

00:15:54.060 In Islam, we have to put the actions in, but we cannot, let me tell you a very simple hadith 0.99

00:15:58.440 that will break it down for you.

00:15:59.400 There was a man who came to, he's going to be standing in front of God Almighty on the

00:16:02.660 judgment, and he's going to say, I want to enter paradise with the good deeds that I've

00:16:06.220 done.

00:16:06.400 I was very holy, I've done so many good deeds.

00:16:08.320 God says, okay, let's put it into the balance, to weigh it up.

00:16:12.540 So God takes his eye, puts it in the scales, and gets all his good deeds.

00:16:16.500 His eye outweighs all the good deeds he's done.

00:16:19.060 Meaning, the mercy of his eye outweighs all the good deeds.

00:16:23.100 He can never repay, he can never repay God for the very vision he has.

00:16:27.360 So God says to him, you have to go hellfire, because we did it based on your, you said,

00:16:31.440 I want to go paradise, based on my good deeds.

00:16:34.040 Based on your good deeds, you shouldn't even be going paradise.

00:16:36.660 No, yeah, and we would agree with that.

00:16:37.920 Exactly.

00:16:38.520 By the mathematical argument.

00:16:39.540 Exactly.

00:16:40.220 So what happens is, he says, God, I'm sorry, please enter me into paradise by your mercy.

00:16:45.300 What he acknowledges is that the works he did was good, but to acknowledge and think,

00:16:50.540 oh, it was my good deeds, this is arrogance, because you can never pay back God for the

00:16:54.660 very vision you have.

00:16:55.900 So that was a lesson to be learned.

00:16:57.520 So what it tells us is that we put the efforts in, we pray, but it's eventually by the mercy

00:17:02.580 of God that you will enter paradise.

00:17:04.360 Right, I mean, we would agree that anyone that goes to heaven is purely by grace, which isn't

00:17:11.640 to say that one shouldn't do works, but works are the result of a gratitude, of a right

00:17:18.020 knowledge.

00:17:19.620 So I think, yeah, I've enjoyed this conversation.

00:17:22.600 It's a pleasure, man.

00:17:23.520 We're here every Saturday.

00:17:25.160 We're at Speaker's Corner every Sunday.

00:17:26.340 That's a little bit crazy there.

00:17:27.780 I wouldn't recommend you to go there.

00:17:29.600 Speaker's Corner.

00:17:30.080 Have you been to Speaker's Corner?

00:17:30.660 I have not been to Speaker's Corner.

00:17:33.120 Okay, yeah.

00:17:33.920 You should come.

00:17:36.440 Thank you, guys.

00:17:37.140 It's been a pleasure.

00:17:38.200 And yeah, we had a really nice discussion with Jack, and we both learned from each other.

00:17:41.300 Till next time, from Salaam Corner, Assalamualaikum Warahmatullahi Wabarakatuh.

00:17:44.540 Thank you, Jack.

00:17:45.280 Thank you.

Ali Dawah - July 06, 2020

DID SATAN TRICK CHRISTIANS!？ - JACK & ALI DISCUSS

Episode Stats

Summary

Transcript